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Tuesday, April 28, 2009
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is Torture Ever Moral?
by Pat Buchanan
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After opening the door to a truth commission to investigate torture by the CIA of al-Qaida subjects, and leaving the door open to prosecution of higher-ups, President Obama walked the cat back.

He is now opposed to a truth commission. That means it is dead. He is no longer interested in prosecutions. That means no independent counsel -- for now.

Sen. Harry Reid does not want any new "commissions, boards, tribunals, until we find out what the facts are." Thus, there will be none. The place to find out the facts, says the majority leader, is the intelligence committee of Sen. Dianne Feinstein.

Though belated, White House recognition that high-profile public hearings on the "enhanced interrogation techniques" used by the CIA in the Bush-Cheney years could divide the nation and rip this city apart is politically wise.

For any such investigation must move up the food chain from CIA interrogators, to White House lawyers, to the Cabinet officers who sit on the National Security Council, to Dick Cheney, to The Decider himself.

And what is the need to re-air America's dirty linen before a hostile world, when the facts are already known.

The CIA did use harsh treatment on al-Qaida. That treatment was sanctioned by White House and Justice Department lawyers. The NSC, Cheney and President Bush did sign off. And Obama has ordered all such practices discontinued.

This is not a question of "What did the president know and when did he know it?" It is a question of the legality and morality of what is already known. And on this, the country is rancorously split.

Many contend that torture is inherently evil, morally outrageous and legally impermissible under both existing U.S. law and the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war.

Moreover, they argue, torture does not work.

Its harvest is hatred, deceptions and lies. And because it is cowardly and cruel, torture degrades those who do it, as well as those to whom it is done. It instills a spirit of revenge in its victims.

When the knowledge of torture is made public, as invariably it is, it besmirches America's good name and serves as a recruiting poster for our enemies and a justification to use the same degrading methods on our men and women.

And it makes us no better than the Chinese communist brain-washers of the Korean War, the Japanese war criminals who tortured U.S. POWs and the jailers at the Hanoi Hilton who tortured Sen. John McCain.

Moreover, even if done in a few monitored cases, where it seems to be the only way to get immediate intelligence to save hundreds or thousands from imminent terror attack, down the chain of command they know it is being done. Thus, we get sadistic copycat conduct at Abu Ghraib by enlisted personnel to amuse themselves at midnight.

While the legal and moral case against torture is compelling, there is another side.

Let us put aside briefly the explosive and toxic term.

Is it ever moral to kill? Of course. We give guns to police and soldiers, and honor them as heroes when they use their guns to save lives.

Is it ever moral to inflict excruciating pain? Of course. Civil War doctors who cut off arms and legs in battlefield hospitals saved many soldiers from death by gangrene.

The morality of killing or inflicting severe pain depends, then, not only on the nature of the act, but on the circumstances and motive.

The Beltway Snipers deserved death sentences. The Navy Seal snipers who killed those three Somali pirates and saved Captain Richard Phillips deserve medals.

Consider now Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of 9-11, which sent 3,000 Americans to horrible deaths, and who was behind, if he did not do it himself, the beheading of Danny Pearl.

Even many opponents against torture will concede we have the same right to execute Khalid Mohammed as we did Timothy McVeigh. But if we have a right to kill him, do we have no moral right to waterboard him for 20 minutes to force him to reveal plans and al-Qaida accomplices to save thousands of American lives?

Americans are divided.

"Rendition," a film based on a true story, where an innocent man suspected of belonging to a terrorist cell is sent to an Arab country and tortured, won rave reviews.

But more popular was "Taken," a film in which Liam Neeson, an ex-spy, has a daughter kidnapped by white slavers in Paris, whom he tortures for information to rescue her and bring her home.

Certainly, Cheney and Bush, who make no apologies for what they authorized to keep America safe for seven and a half years, should be held to account. But so, too, should Barack Obama, if U.S. citizens die in a terror attack the CIA might have prevented, had its interrogators not been tied to an Army Field Manual written for dealing with soldiers, not al-Qaida killers who favor "soft targets" such as subways, airliners and office buildings.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Morality and War or Terrorism
This is another pundit's turn the other cheek, the other cheek, the other cheek, the other cheek. Of course Buchanan's shot is stupid. If you were to place all of Buchanan's "loved" ones in one of a dozen rooms and he had to get the truth on the first try, would he choose a little bit of water boarding or just take a shot at opening a door. Case closed. Perhaps if he were in with the people and had to choose one of a dozen switches to get it right, which would he choose? Here's another clue to his outlook -- he was not one of the people who died in the 911. Buchanan, are you denying that the twin towers thing didn't happen?

The moral high ground
You will find that those who take the moral high ground will be the first to fall down the slope when their safety or lives are threatened.

But then this has never been about morality. It is only an excuse to throw the Bush/Cheney administration to the trash heap of history.

It would serve the obama people well to remember, if they open this door to politicising policy, they may have to take their turn in the barrel.

This is where you lost me.
"But if we have a right to kill him, do we have no moral right to waterboard him for 20 minutes to force him to reveal plans"

Torture has never been a reliable method of gathering information, but even leaving that aside I would say that this is pretty thin moral justification.

We may need to kill a rabid dog, but that doesn't mean that we need to be inhumane about it.

Some States have the death penalty, but that doesn't mean that they need to throw condemned prisoners into wood chippers.

A soldier may have moral justification to kill someone on the battlefield, but that does not mean that if he instead takes the person prisoner that he then has justification to do whatever he wants to that person simply because at one point he could have killed him.

The USA condemns other countries for the use of torture, and has even executed people for waterboarding, we should be willing to hold our own armed forces to the same standard.

Allan
Are you delusional?

My ex-husband is Jewish (BTW, watching him tear up watching a Gilette commercial WAS torture) and fathered my two children. His family had relatives that died in the Holocaust. My children, former husband, and relatives have traveled to Israel and witnessed the destruction of Hamas and Hezbollah. Been to a Sparro's in Israel, lately?

Do you know how many hours that you will be detained at any airport prior to be allowing to board?

Do you understand that there is a 2-year mandatory for all men and women to serve in the Israeli Army?

Can you comprehend the fact that Israel has received intelligence from all over the world that Iran will have a nuclear weapon within 60 days and that Benjamin Nethanayu will implement "The Samson Option" prior to that date?

Do you fail to acknowledge that Ahmadinejad believes that the 12th Imam will return on 08.22.09, but mass death and destruction must occur before then to insure such?

Are you sure that you aren't from Stockholm, as in syndrome?

St. Denis a/k/a Denise
I fail to see the relevance in anything you posted to me.

I'm sorry for your husband and his relatives who died in the Holocaust, but this has what to do with waterboarding people?

Regarding the destruction of Hamas and Hezbollah, what it your point? That violence in Israel justifies US soldiers torturing people in Iraq?

I have been to many airports, I know all about the TSA, and I don't feel one bit safer because of it.

Again, what does the Israeli army have to do with anything I said? Or Iranian nuclear capacity for that matter? Are you suggesting that it's moral for Isreali people to torture Iranians?

Instead of dumping a laundry list of gripes in my lap, perhaps you could attempt to make some sort of point regarding the theme of the article which is the justification of torture.

Morality, necessity, and legality
For me what is appaling about the Bush-Cheney practice, and ill-conceived in the current debate about torture, is the idea that the rightness or wrongness of torture is something to be handled by means of legal reasoning. Legal reasoning will reach whatever conclusions those who pay and control the lawyers desire. If you start with the goal of trying to show that some practice that most people would consider 'torture' really isn't, wow, you'll reach precisely that conclusion.

Arguments against torture are essentially moral arguments, and the first half of Buchanan's column contains a representative list of the usual moral objections.

However, torture may be necessary to prevent a greater evil. Now the real problem (as I see it) becomes clear. Torture, when necesssary, cannot be made public. Ever. No legal justification of it should be forthcoming. The convoluted reasoning of lawyers is offensive because it tries to 'moralize' something that cannot rightly be moralized.

Oh my God! Breaking story!
Republican senator Arlen Specter from PA is SWITCHING PARTIES to become a democrat.

Since Al Franken is expected to be seated as a democrat, Arlen Specter will give the dems a fillibuster-proof 60-vote majority.

It is never moral.
Never! Too many folks think real life is like a TV series.

Good news

Veteran Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter will announce today that he's leaving the Republican Party to become a Democrat, sources tell POLITICO.

will you tell us the truth please?

Dealing with a vicious man who only respects force isn't the same as dealing with little boys who are kept after school.

What the pipsquealers are now saying is,

"Harbor a criminal, don't ask him for critical information. Give aid and comfort to an implacable enemy, because the world is watching us."

The wanton killer of more than 3,000 Americans is thinking: "Next time we'll ram their ivory towers to hell with their own airliners. These imbeciles didn't learn a thing on 9-11 2001."

There's one question nobody ever seems to ask-- When is torture really torture? I want to think starvation is the worst torture.

One aged survivor of the 1942 siege of Leningrad said, "I was so starved I was taking bites out of the door! I'd look at the table and groan. Then I would eat a piece of it!" Today we are demoralized because the CIA waterboarded a source of crucial information; but hundreds of thousands of children are dying in Africa, because they haven't had a crust of bread in months.

Have compassion on children! Not on a hateful prisoner who killed our own people by thousands.

Arlen Spector...
I always thought he was a dumbocrat already...

First honest thing he ever done
quote:
"Veteran Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter will announce today that he's leaving the Republican Party to become a Democrat"

=======================
He has always been one

End torture, just kill em
Forget taking prisoners

Pat
Please join Arlen in moving to the Dimocrat party. Terrorists are not prisoners of war in the sense that others (japanese, vietnamese, etc) are. They are not entitled to Geneva convention rules, they are not part of a military organization, they are out to kill Americans regardless of what we do.

Idiot, Bleeding Heart Liberals [and Pat]
Would you do what it took to save your child?

Someone else's child is at risk with these fanatics ... there's NO DIFFERENCE. It's a MORAL imperative to stop the bastards.

It's not even close to a difficult decision you moral poseurs.

Torture
Open up the truth commission. I have been tortured since 01/20/2009 by the President of the US. Every single day I am being waterboarded and sleep deprived every single day. The torture is not limited to just me. My family, my business and my friends.

Please commission get on this please, please!

Gestell
Are you saying that in some instances torture is not only permissible, but necessary? I agree with you, if that is what you're saying and I agree that there should be no 'legal reasoning' involved. We see what a paper trail on this alleged 'torture' has wrought, and it is nothing more than the political theater of accusations, denials, and the specter (no pun intended) of show trials put on for political points.

If the previous administration saw a need to waterboard, the agents in the field should have simply done it and reported the intelligence they managed to get...with no mention of their techniques.

Jeffrey
That is exactly the type of post that prevents me from taking you people seriously.

Torture is never ever right
Under no circumstances whatsoever does it become morally permissible to torture a prisoner.

None whatsoever.

It's moot anyway, since we have time-tested, legal, and effective methods of interrogating prisoners that do not involve torture.

Ask the FBI. They've been doing it for decades and it works.

Jeffrey
Only your own twisted mind thinks as you imagine

Donovan
Good thing waterboarding is not torture then. What methods of interrogating are you referring to that work?

TrueConservative
"Would you do what it took to save your child?"

This is the old Jack Bauer argument, if there was a ticking clock tied to a nuclear bomb, and only by torturing someone could you find out where it is, would you do it?

My personal answer is maybe, in fact probably if my family or loved ones were at stake, but I would expect to have to answer to someone for it, and if I had accidentally grabbed the wrong person I would expect there to be hell to pay.

That's the problem with the neocon viewpoint, it's easy to construct hypothetical ticking time bomb scenarios, but are we sure that torture is only being used in the most dire and imminent circumstances? If it's ok to torture someone to find a bomb, is it ok to torture someone to find an accomplice? Who gets to draw the line about when it's justified and when it isn't? Can just any CIA operative do it? Should the people who are tortured have any recourse if it turns out they were in fact tortured wrongfully? We need to be particularly clear here, a person who really feels justified can always break the rules and they probably won't be convicted of anything if they can prove they were justified, but what the neocons are asking for is to change the rules so there doesn't have to be any sort of accounting.

This kind of argument is never as clear cut black and white as people try to make it seem, and before you sign on to supporting it personally I would suggest you do some deep soul searching, and really ask yourself if the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are really about your safety.

Allan
The simple fact that we are waterboarding TERRORISTS makes our actions justified.

Torture to a Terrorist
So much for the commission to investigate torture trial balloon. Of course it wont fly. Der! Torture to a terrorist is cutting off you head on National Television! Water boading is the least we can do.

-Factiod

Jesse,
The ultimate goal in any interrogation procedure is to build trust between the detainee and the interrogator. In order for any information you gather to be reliable, the detainee has to give it willingly.

Isolation and disorientation are effective ways of achieving this. You want the detainee to lose and perspective on time. Lights may stay on for a day or off for a day, but not in any pattern that resembles day/night cycles.

The prisoner is randomly moved from one room to another, for no apparent reason. He never sees outside, so he can never know if it is day or night.

He goes for days without seeing or talking to another person. Weeks, maybe.

Loud music is pumped into his cell. Not loud enough to damage his hearing, but loud enough to cause stress and further his disorientation.

(These are just examples...the playbook on this is much vaster than anything I would be privy to.)

After enough of such disorientation and confusion (weeks, maybe months), a person would be desperate to make *any* human connection he could. And this is where the trust-building between the detainee and the interrogator begins.

A skilled interrogator can get anything out of anyone. And no torture is necessary.

Donovan
I agree that those methods may work, but how do you know those tactics were not tried before waterboarding occured. It seems to me that there would be an escalation of methods as some prove to be unhelpful.

Is Torture Moral
What President Bush authorized and Vice-President Cheney agreed to was absolutely the right thing to do and they should be applauded for the guts to make the decision. Our new pres seems to want to do the "politically correct" thing first with no regard to the effectiveness, where President Bush did what WORKED with no regard to the political correctness. HE WAS RIGHT IN WHAT HE DID!!

It is easy to be pure...
It is extremely easy to be a poseur, and say "I would not torture"

I truly despise Bush, and disagree with him on most issues. But one thing I do give him, on this issue, he did his best to keep his constituents, the citizens of the United States safe.

We had important terrorists whom we knew had information about future terrorist plans. Bush was not squeamish about extracting that information. This is not a conventional war, where enemy armies line up threateningly at your border, or lob missiles across oceans. They wear no uniforms, and act as spies and saboteurs until they strike.

Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, and all the rest woud be the first to complain that he had "not done enough" had there been other attacks within the US.
Hypocrites.

Jesse asked, "I agree that those...
...methods may work, but how do you know those tactics were not tried before waterboarding occured."

Jesse, the FBI has been practicing, honing, and fine-tuning its interrogation methods for decades.

If the FBI's playbook was used, and used properly, the prisoners would have told their interrogators *everything* they knew.

The only reason there would have been an escalation is if the administration was looking for a specific bit of information, and the prisoners they had weren't giving it to them. This could only be, of course, because the prisoners didn't have the information they were looking for.

In fact, this is exactly what I suspect took place.

"No torture is necessary." ???
"No torture is necessary." ? What do you call "isolation and disorientation", "loud music pumped into a cell", "randomly moved from one room to another", and "going for days or weeks without seeing or talking to another person" a day at the beach??? While your at it inject truth serum into a terrorist without against his will and we wont call that torture either.

Once again, torture to a terrorist is cutting off you head on National Television! Water boading is the least we can do.

-Factiod

Mark,
I call that interrogation.

None of what I described involves the intentional infliction of physical pain, or the perception of imminent death.

But it sure as hell gets detainees to talk.

Torture is very narrowly defined. Intentional infliction of physical pain.

None of what I described meets that criteria.

Merely making someone uncomfortable, confused, disoriented, or isolated is not torture.

Donovan
Were the FBI not involved in any of these interrogations? The media makes it sound like it was all CIA but I am sure the FBI had liasons involved. As you said, that is what they do.

What about the claims that bombings in LA and NYC were foiled by intel gathered during these interrogations?

It is possible that the prisoners you were referring to didn't have the information the feds were looking for. However, how does one come to that conclusion without pushing the prisoner to his limits?

LOOK WHAT THE EVIL DUDES DID !
THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE ANSWEAR,IS WHAT THESE EVIL DUDES DID MORAL?KIND OF A STUPID QUESTION.PRESIDENT BUSH DID THE RIGHT THING.

Jesse,
The news that's been coming out of all this recently is that at the very beginning of this whole process, around 2002, the FBI was expecting to take point on the interrogations since it is what they do best.

But when the top guys at the FBI found out what the administration was intending, Mueller and his aides told their people to back off.

The FBI never had a very strong part in the interrogations of these prisoners, because the FBI was not willing to go to the lengths that the Administration and the CIA wanted.

TORTURE and MORALITY
GESTELL from MA makes some good points to keep it out of the hands of lawyers for this is not a question of legality.

You can't change the rules or justify torture and turn it into a pretty picture that will make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. Its not like the NFL where you can institute a rule to protect the quarterback with a "roughing the passer" rule and then penalize the team/person committing the act.

Torture, like war, is a very ugly act regardless of the noble justifications we place on the action. However, like the threat of war, or imprisonment (not current day cells w/ t.v.'s but the true payback to society imprisonment) the idea of torture being available and possible can and will act as a deterrant and as a tool. To those people we hear stating that torture doesn't work, it can be said that it works as well as any war/combat/military action.

War, unlike the NFL, can not be contained by regulations for there are no true, honest, or realistic laws that can govern war. If there is need for military action, throw everything and everyone at the situation and resolve it quickly. This includes torture. t is okay to explode and totally annihilate our enemies' human bodies, but we shouldn't use drastic measures, if necessary, and attempt to get information that may aid us. As long as there are people in the world trying to murder other people, our human natural behavior to survive is going to supercede all else. If that means to torture, then that means we'll torture. To place some imaginary righteous parameters on war to make us feel better about ourselves is delusional and will cost lives..



hard facts for donovan

The basic fact is, torture wouldn't be questioned anyway if the president on whose watch it's done is Democrat. It's just Bush Derangement we all see.

Can we see proof?

Yeah; torture is like any other offense; all in the eye of the beholder. We know because now that Democrats control our legislature, nothing can be done about Democrat offenders. If the ones ordering terrorists to get a waterboarding were Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Joe Biden; --neither DC nor the media would give a flying FIG about it. Aren't these the same sources now, who insist Michelle Obama's
hot? She walks on water. Her poo doesn't stink, it's heavenly!

Actually, she looks odd; a lot like an ostrich looking for a place to lay a big egg. Nobody's fooled!

It wasn't rape--or torture when a woman got nailed by Bill Clinton. You know all this; so does the media. Try another line of BS, Donovan!

Enhanced "Interrogation" Techniques
Enhanced "Interrogation" Techniques or Torture is a matter of samantics:

CNSNews.com) – House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) said the “enhanced interrogation” techniques used on terror suspects--described in declassified Justice Department memos released by the Obama administration last week--had approval from congressional leaders in both parties.

Boehner also said that making the complete report public would show “the bigger picture” of how America was kept safe from terrorist attacks.


Jesse asked, "What about the claims...
...that bombings in LA and NYC were foiled by intel gathered during these interrogations?"

The timeline on this claim doesn't add up.

This information supposedly came from 9/11 mastermind Kalid Sheikh Mohammed.

However, the Bush White House claimed that the plot against Los Angeles was discovered and foiled in 2002...a year before Mohammed was captured.

There was some sloppy retro-fitting to make the torture program seem like it was useful.

One of the best...
... "pro and con" discussion of the topic I've seen. Pat has an odd way of being very intelligent and insightful at times, and at others completely whacked out.
A best approach on torture could be to assure full criminal liability for our torturers, even IF they are in the "ticking time bomb" situation. Do you believe that it's necessary to torture this supect in order to save lives? Do you believe it strongly enough to go to jail for doing so?


RW, excellent point!
That is a very good way to look at it.

If you think torturing a prisoner is *absolutely necessary* in order to get information to prevent an imminent attack, you had better be *damned* sure about it.

You better be so sure that you are willing to go to jail for it.

I like that.

Donovan
Really nothing seems to add up. Unfortunately, you and I can discuss this until we are blue in the face but neither of us knows all the facts. I'm afraid we never will either. I appreciate the discussion though. Very thought provoking and free of nastiness.

All that being said, I still don't think waterboarding is torture :)

St. Denis a/k/a Denise
Better check the fit of your tinfoil yarmulke.... the "voices" are whispering some pretty disturbing things to you.


Moral or not
It is NEVER LEGAL. The US ratified the UN Convention Against Torture in 1994. Anyone who engages in torture is thus violating US law and subject to both US as well as international prosecution.

Denise
Must you paste the same Likud propaganda over and over on every thread? Iran is not 60 days from a bomb, the president of Iran doesn't control Iran's nuclear program and Israel has a nuclear stockpile on par with China's.

Survival is the moral imperative -Period
Toucan said it very well in his post (#6):

"It is okay to explode and totally annihilate our enemies' human bodies, but we shouldn't use drastic measures, if necessary, and attempt to get information that may aid us. As long as there are people in the world trying to murder other people, our human natural behavior to survive is going to supercede all else. If that means to torture, then that means we'll torture. To place some imaginary righteous parameters on war to make us feel better about ourselves is delusional and will cost lives.."

Survival, as individuals as well as a society, is our moral imperative. We must match and surpass our enemy in their savagery, tactics, and will to survive. Else, we won't. It's very simple.

Agaki,
Excellent point! I forgot all about that treaty.

What if?
What if someone ruthlessly slaughtered one of your well-loved family members. Then they laughed in front of you. You wouldn't want that person "tortured" and dumped into a meat-grinder? I would want them beaten, whipped, cut, kicked, tazed, speared and shot to death. I truly would.

Allan
The airports to which I referred were in Israel where the TSA is not in existence. The "waiting" period lasts up to 6 hours.

As for my children, I would decapitated any terrorist if they planned to torture them.

Joey,
That is why persons who are emotionally connected to a legal case are not allowed to be part of the jury, or counsel, or judge.

Justice demands impartiality and neutrality.

Vengeance =/= Justice

Doug,
If you believe that death is the worst thing that can happen to you, then you are a coward.

If you believe that your life is more valuable than your principles and your honor, then you are a damned coward.

See, what I don't get after reading
these posts is that seemingly most of you could give a rat's-A*S*S less about those 3,000+ men, women and children who were violently murdered in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. You act like you could give a rat's-A*S*S* less about our 3,000+ fighting men and women who have already given their lives. Ya'll have forgotten. Now it's all about rights for radical, muslim anti-American terrorist scumbags. Why do you defend them? Read all these God-damned posts about making sure these pissant scumbag terrorists have some rights. It was they who declared a war against the United States of America. It was THEY who attacked US. It was they who tortured our citizens and sawed some heads off. THEM. Have it your way folks. Keep coddlin' their balls. They love you long time. Support the terrorists, send donations to William Bill Ayers at.............

AKAGI
Yes, someone attempted to make torture an unlawful act in the world by placing it in to a U.N. Convention. However, when a "so-called" law does not pertain to everyone the statute has no chance in surviving...

Akagi many things
are legal that are immoral and many things moral are illegal, one has nothing to do with the other. torture is never moral and is never effective and is never really used to gain information, at least not from the person being tortured. Torture is and has always been a weapon of terror to be used against a second person not the person being tortured. On the person being tortured it can be for revenge but never for information. The idea of the ticking bomb is silly because the person being tortured knows exactly how long he needs to hold out so torture is entirely useless there.

However no one has presenated any evidence that the USA was involved in torturing. Waterboarding is clearly not tortured since you can see it on game shows.

Joey
Well said from Georgia... I wonder how many people would come to our side if their mom, dad, grandmother, grandfather, son, or daughter's were being held hostage, or going to be killed, and could be facing injury or torture, and we had some people in custody that had some information regarding the situation. But none of these people would talk without some premptive encouragement.

The problem is, that is the situation... These terrorists do plan on killing or harming us and we do have people in custody (for now anyway) and they should fear torture, because you can be sure if any of us, military or civilian, were to fall into their hands, that is exactly what we will receive...

Unbelievable!
Pat makes a good point. If an individual has information on a plot that may kill or maim anyone or even cause great damage, and another person or entity has ANY means to extract that information from the former, it is his duty to do so. To do otherwise is would simply be aiding the terrorist, and should be prosicuted as vigorously as if they had commited the crime.
Whether you commit the crime, or allow one to be commited when you are able to prevent it, you are in a word evil!
Let me be clear on my position. If I could save one american by extracting information from a terrorist or anybody else, I would personally skin them with a dull pocket knife!

Toucan et al
The US signed the CAT in 1988 and ratified it in 1994. Violation of the CAT is ILLEGAL as in against US law--those who violate CAT are criminals, it is of course up to prosecutors to file charges and for a jury to convict. Those who violate CAT are also subject to international prosecution.

Waterboarding is against the CAT and thus illegal as as far as the CAT is concerned TORTURE. If the US feels that waterboarding is not torture, it should have never signed or ratified the CAT and join said the DPRK or the Sudan who have not signed it.

I'll ask you what I asked a professor from Fudan University once...if China had no intention of upholding the provisions of the Conventions on Human and Political Rights, why did China sign it, if the US wants to use torture as defined by the CAT, why did it sign it?


Is Incest ever moral?
The Dems want to give legal protection to 30 different sexual orientations including incest read it for yourself in the so called Hate Crimes Bill:

http://www.afa.net/sexualorientationshr1913.asp



As Shep Said
This is America, We Don't F'ing Torture!

Defending oneself
a further note. No one can deny that a person has no right to defend him/herself. This "no torture" policy is tantamount to capturing a bad guy, putting him in a room, untying his hands, and putting yourself in handcuffs. Makes about that much sense!

Toucan
It does apply to everyone that has ratified it. Non-state actors and states not recognized as states and states that refuse to ratify it are not bound by its provisions, but the US is bound by them.

As for the stupid, "If you mom was..." I'll answer better than Dukakis did in 1988 when Bernie Shaw asked him if Kitty was raped and murdered would he still oppose the death sentence. If a family member of mine was being held I'd want to find them, pull various parts off them as they were alive, soak them in salt water and have a car battery and cables there, perhaps do vile things to their own family members as they were forced to watch and then feed them alive to pigs, but that is me. I am not bound by the CAT, the US and its agents are. My own personal thirst for revenge is not the same as a state actor doing it. I may want to torture a rapist who attacked my family, but the State doesn't then do to him what I would if given the chance, now does it?

Sky's Falling Over a Word
Take the word "torture" out of the argument and everything would be fine.

Water-boarding is a short and painless means of extracting information. But because the word "torture" has been associated with it -- we're acting as if the sky is falling.

We can bomb a building and have folks being burned alive or dying slow deaths, but because we don't attach the word "torture" to it -- we're cool with it.

We've got folks running around saying that "torture" doesn't work. Well, I don't know about torture -- but "water-boarding" works real well. I guess though that water-boarding doesn't really work even though it does, because we're calling it "torture" and torture doesn't work.

Then we have folks saying that there are far better ways to extract information than the use of torture. I agree and water-boarding is one of them.

There's absolutely no way under the sun, that anything that lasts for one minute or less, involves no pain and causes no injuries -- could ever be called "torture" to a reasoned person.

It's just that many people have "torture" on the brain. And they equate any form of physical interrogation with that word.

Bobby-G
Hardly. The US didn't torture the Japanese POWs it had and still got useful intelligence--the Japanese were pretty easy at getting info from too. The US has got useful information without torture. It rarely works, and even when it does, the harm it does by putting future US prisoners at greater risk and putting the US in the same company as the DPRK and Sudan makes it not worth the price that the US had to pay for it.

torture
the ends justify the means,the only rules in wartime are,there are no rules

soulsamurai
Quite a jump of logic there which is typical of that moron Wildmon. He also believes that pornography causes rape too. He gives the entire state of Mississippi a bad name and hey, that takes some doing.

Just because HR 1913 list sexual orientation doesn't mean every form of sexual desire such as incest and the like would be protected. Look I can say I am a Druid or I practice the classic Mayan faith and that would be protected, but if I start cutting out people's hearts to offer to Kinich Ahau, believe me that activity won't be protected. Just because HR 1913 doesn't define sexual orientation doesn't mean the 30 sexual "orientations" of the DSM-IV are protected. Only the idiots that think Don Wildmon is rational would believe something this stupid.


Akagi
I have heard that straw man arguement several times before! Torture works! Thousands of years of data has to be ignored to deny that! Particualrly when you add fear inducing methods as Waterboardinf, insects and the like to your definition of "torture". It is a fact! I can give you thousands of cases including your Japanese straw man (scaring people was not torture before a couple of years ago)! Most recently our man KSM. If you hate America, and Americans, you allow these things to happen while doing nothing.

Raj
"the ends justify the means,the only rules in wartime are,there are no rules..."

Ask people like Hideki Tojo, Tani Hisao, and Iwane Matsui how that worked out for them.

How Morality Is Measured
Morality has different measuring sticks at different times. One comment on the US teatment of japanese prisoners is interesting in that it appears logical but is misleading.

The US took very few Japanese prisoners. The Japanese land battle strategy was always a fixed defense, so little information was possible or even useful, we knew where they were and how to go get them. And they were, indeed POWS, and qualified, as part of a regular army, as POWs. POWs cannot be punished for not answering questions.

But in war, moral judgements are different. Killing is ok, and encouraged. Brutality is the order of the day, and without often brutal behavior, good men die. In early July, 1944, to secure the breakout at Caen, the US bombed the city of Caen (with some bad targeting), killing 4,000 Frenchmen. Regrettable, yes, immoral, no.

To allow behavior others than those protected by the 3rd and 4th Conventions is highly immoral, for it renders the conventions useless.

The Stockholm Syndrome
I'm delusional?

I suppose that NYC flyover didn't happen, eh?

Then explain how it is:

That GM is not now owned by the government (50%) and the UAW (39%), and

That Katrina never happened, and

That the DC sniper was a Christian and never killed anyone, and

That a DC Circuit judge did not ruled against the O&G business in favor of Obama & environmentalists, and

That Ike never struck Texas, and

That George Washington was not the first President, and

That Barney Frank is straight, and

That Arlen Specter has not switched parties, and

That Barack Obama is a fiscal-conservative, and

That Patty Hearst was from Stockholm, as in syndrome, and

That the economy is booming, and

That Nethanayu is actually the BFF of Ahmadinejad, and

That John McCain won the last election, and

That Pearl Harbor never happened, and

That Daniel Pearl and Nicholas Berg still have their heads.

My darlings, I care about all of you, but you guys need mental help.

Bobby-g
Plenty of experts in the area have said torture in fact is not a reliable tool for getting intel and even when it does work, the black eye it gives the US (why should we think highly of the US if you are no better than say the Sudan?)as well as putting future US prisoners at risk. If the US gets to torture...so does everyone else, so next war, no crying over people pulling things off of live US prisoners.

there is a solution to the problem
if we are fighting britain (still think that is impossible after the moronic behavior of dear leader?) we abide by the geneva convention. if we are fighting a non-geneva convention signee, we reserve the right to do as we feel necessary. we should also guarantee that anyone who reveals in the smallest degree what it is that we feel necessary will be court martialed and promptly hung. that should include everyone, including media, leftists, servicemen, and presidents.

hmm
Would it be torture to threaten these muslim terrorists with exposure to the swine flu virus or would that just be plain comedy?

Here's Where it's Headed
If we keep with this "torture" righteousness and eventually declare that any pain, suffering, anguish or agony is to be defined as "torture" -- regardless of the action(s) involved -- then here is what we will see in the future:

A downed U.S. pilot in a foreign country that we are at war with -- will be tried, convicted and executed for: Torture.

It will be said that he bombed targets that housed civilians. And it will be said that the civilians; trapped in the rubble, experienced severe pain, anguish, agony and feared for their lives. Or as some of you refer to any of those physical and mental effects: Torture.

And the U.S. will have no leg to stand on.

Actions are what should define torture -- not the accompanying physical or emotional pain or stress associated with the actions.

People are frightened on a water-board, but so is a small child watching a doctor preparing the needle to give him a shot. And neither or those should be called "torture" just because there's fright involved.

We had better slow down with all the righteous indignation about "torture". It's going to bite us in the butt.

Terry,
There is a very clear legal distinction between legal and efficacious methods of interrogation, and torture.

Your scenario cannot happen.

santosguy
There were indeed Japanese POWs, some 2000 in Australia. The POWs (all 1000 of them) taken off Iwo in 1945 would be of little value, but Kazuo Sakamaki is a different matter.

Bobby-g:

I also don't think you understand the term "straw man" exactly. That is an fallacy which misrepresents your opponent's view and then defeating it. My claiming that torture is not an effective technique is not a straw man. Back to logic class you go.


Terry,
The United Nations Convention Against Torture, to which the United States is a signatory (rendering it, by the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution, U.S. Law), defines torture very plainly:

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."


curmudgeon
"we reserve the right to do as we feel necessary...."

Sorry. Read Article 2 of the CAT. "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever..."

Terry:

And read Article 1 of the CAT "... torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession..."

Sticking people with hypodermics beyond what was required in medical care in order to obtain information would be a violation of the CAT as well.

ABSOLUTELY!
You are right, Pat, and this entire dialogue will become irrelevant if we have another attack on U.S. soil.

Those on the left who say they absolutely would not inflict pain on their enemy to save lives will be the ones howling the loudest about why they weren’t protected. And I don’t think even the Obama Messiah will be able to placate them.


the torture scene in Dirty Harry
Yes.. I know it's a movie but it makes for a good hypothetical. If your daughter is buried alive in a hidden location and you catch the culprit - what will you do to get information out of him? Again, if it was your daughter - would the culprit's rights figure in to your decision? Maybe you don't deserve a family if they do.

Donovan
"There is a very clear legal distinction between legal and efficacious methods of interrogation, and torture.

Your scenario cannot happen."

No Donovan, there isn't anything "clear" about it and there never will be. Whenever you have words defining torture that include: sever pain, physical or mental anguish, agony, actions that are degrading to the individual, suffering, fear -- and the like -- it is impossible to be "clear" about what constitutes legal interrogation tactics.

In fact, isn't it degrading for a Muslim to be ordered around by a woman? Are we now going to conclude that "torture" has occurred because a female interrogated a Muslim? If a prisoner is held in a small cell and can prove later that he is claustrophobic -- are we now guilty of "torture"?

If we're not going to define "torture" by the actions but rather by the accompanying side-effects, anything and everything can be said to be: "Torture".

And I feel like I have been tortured by having to witness so much self-righteous indignation, over something that amounts to absolutely nothing in the reality of things. Tortured and embarrassed.

Meaningless banter ...

The bottom line is this: The President, Congress, a goodly portion of the Federal bureaucracy, and the military take an oath to defend the Constitution, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Part of the Constitution tells us the Federal government is responsible for providing for "the common defense".

If your personal version of moral rectitude prevents you from "providing for the common defense", what, pray tell, are you doing in an office that requires you to do just that??

Robert Heinlein observed:
"I now define "moral behavior" as "behavior that tends toward survival." I won't argue with philosophers or theologians who choose to use the word "moral" to mean something else, but I do not think anyone can define "behavior that tends toward extinction" as being "moral" without stretching the word "moral" all out of shape.

... An animal so poor in spirit that he won't even fight on his own behalf is already an evolutionary dead end; the best he can do for his breed is to crawl off and die, and not pass on his defective genes."

For a blunt appraisal of Mr. Obama's recent actions, see Michael Shuerer's piece in WAPO today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/0 4/24/AR2009042403459.html

terry
“We had better slow down with all the righteous indignation about "torture". It's going to bite us in the butt.”

It’s intended to do just that.

As I stated on another board, this is all intended to destroy western society.

Liberals hate traditional western society. They would love nothing better than to permanently hamstring the U.S. so we are not able to defend ourselves. Why else would they have opposed Ronald Reagan’s Strategic Air Defense Initiative aka Star Wars? It was only defense oriented and had no attack capabilities yet the left opposed it at every turn.

Along the same lines as your argument, if torture is illegal, and anything that causes discomfort is torture, how can we legally fight any war? Often times in a war, people are blow apart and bodies lay in muddy fields for hours slowly oozing blood before anyone comes to get them. Isn’t this torturous? Of course it is.

The bottom line is if you don’t destroy your enemy first, they will destroy you, and you can be sure they won’t be nice about it.

Akagi
"And read Article 1 of the CAT "... torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession...""

So that means water-boarding is not torture. I agree.

And when we start inflicting severe pain and suffering to obtain information, we should have a debate about it.

Terry asked, "In fact, isn't it...
...degrading for a Muslim to be ordered around by a woman?"

Might be, but the word "degrading" does not appear anywhere in the definition of torture.

Again, the legal definition of torture under U.S. law is:

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession..."

Severe pain or suffering. Making someone uncomfortable, or disoriented, or other standard interrogation techniques do not meet the definition of "torture".

Bud
"an oath to defend the Constitution..."

Sure does. See Article VI, Clause 2. The CAT is the supreme law of the land and thus Bush and everyone else are required to follow its mandates which was obviously not done. He broke the law...should he be prosecuted for it? No...time to let the crimes of the past stay in the past. Just as I don't support rounding people up and prosecuting them for White Terror, I don't support them doing the same to Bush and those under him.

Ms Kelly
Great points -- I couldn't agree more.

And when folks start going on about our "values" and such -- I'm of the belief that self-preservation should be at the top of the values list.

Because with that one -- all others are lost by default.

Terry,
Do you believe that death is the worst thing that can happen to you?

If so, you are a coward.

Anyone who values their life more than they value their principles or honor is a coward.

There are things *far* worse than death.

Patrick Buchanan:
You have failed to answer the question you posed. OsiSpeaks.com

Ms Kelly
Because it had no chance of working and worst yet, the Soviets would have just sent enough missiles up to overwhelm the system. They had what 20,000 weapons at that point? Same thing they claim they will do now if the US puts forward Star Wars 2.0.

Terry:

"suffering, whether physical or mental..." The sense of drowning will certainly fall under the qualification mental suffering. The US has admitted to the UN it tortured people in Iraq, Gitmo and Afghanistan and the chief legal person at Gitmo has admitted the US engaged in torture as well.


I'm with Ms Kelly
Right after 911, before we found all the bodies, many couldn't wait to argue the terrorists' side of the story. They take the other side for the sake of taking the other side. They think they're open-minded and compassionate.

Terry
" I'm of the belief that self-preservation should be at the top of the values list."

If that is your chief value, then you should also support say not serving in the US military and if you are called, you should refuse to comply and if forced...escape as soon as you can. The chances of being killed on US soil is quite small and even if you in the US were a target, you could always move someplace where such a threat would even be less...say New Zealand. Going outside the US to fight for the US seems rather foolish...even stupid if self-preservation is the prime objective as it were.

Carlos
"many couldn't wait to argue the terrorists' side of the story...."

Like who...Ron Paul? Not taking the terrorists side, taking the US law side. That was the reason you all wanted Clinton impeached...rule of law...well that goes for all the laws, not just some of the laws.

Donovan
""Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession..."

Severe pain or suffering. Making someone uncomfortable, or disoriented, or other standard interrogation techniques do not meet the definition of "torture"".

Donovan...Can you explain where in water-boarding is their the infliction of severe pain or suffering?

There is no pain whatsover...severe or otherwise. And there's nothing that comes to mind that lasts for as little as 20-30 seconds that would fall under the "suffering" category.

You simply WANT water-boarding to be torture so that you can rail against.

And btw...In my other post mentioning "degrading" -- that is found in the Geneva Convention. So as you can clearly see, "torture" is being defined all over the place and if we keep on...there's nothing that won't fall under the heading of "torture".

AKAGI
In reply to your statement about my stupid "what if" scenario, you stated "My own personal thirst for revenge is not the same as a state actor doing it. I may want to torture a rapist who attacked my family, but the State doesn't then do to him what I would if given the chance, now does it?"
Wouldn't you say this is a false argument? I did not say anything about revenge nor do I think that using forceful interrogation is an act of revenge. Call it torture or what ever you want, but it is not revenge in my view although I do agree that it could be used as such in the "wrong" hands... You would be in search of information... Sometimes you get some good intel, sometimes you don't. If there is a 1% chance of getting info, I say go for it. Forget the revenge part, that will come by other means that are not considered "illegal".

Also, you talk like the State is only one person. "if the US wants to use torture as defined by the CAT, why did it sign it?"

Just because the President in 1994, and we all know who he was and how his wonderful moral code that he chose to live his life by should be edict for all, decided to sign off on this U.N. charter with out the approval from the American People, is not a good indicator on what the "U.S. wants to use or does not want to use." This is no more of an idicator of what u.s. citizens think than President B.H. Obama having the fed print up all of this monoply money because he can't get loans to fuel is social agenda. His voice is not neccesarily our voice...

Akagi
Your post below is one of the stupidest things I've seen on this board:

"" I'm of the belief that self-preservation should be at the top of the values list."

If that is your chief value, then you should also support say not serving in the US military and if you are called, you should refuse to comply and if forced...escape as soon as you can. The chances of being killed on US soil is quite small and even if you in the US were a target, you could always move someplace where such a threat would even be less...say New Zealand. Going outside the US to fight for the US seems rather foolish...even stupid if self-preservation is the prime objective as it were."

I wasn't stating to Ms Kelly about the self-preservation of an "individual" -- but rather of our "country."

I think some of you try hard not to understand the obvious -- just so as to come back with silly minutiae that has nothing to do with the point.

Toucan
The treaty was signed in 1988 and you can check who was president then. It was ratified in 1994 and in case you were unaware, the president has no power to ratify a treaty.

Terry
"There is no pain whatsover...severe or otherwise..."

But it does cause mental suffering and that is banned by Article 1 of the CAT as well.

Let's clear-up some other things
For those of you who like to repeat lines like: "Other interrogation tactics obtain more information than water-boarding" -- you are right. Technically.

Most information is obtained through questioning -- questioning that goes on for hours, days and even weeks. But when you've gathered all the information and have now put the pieces of the puzzle together except for those few little pieces like: "where" and "when" -- water-boarding can come in handy.

And so when the prisoner on the water-board gives-up something like: "The Golden Gate Bridge" -- it is in fact a very small amount of information, but damned important -- wouldn't you agree? And it is highly unlikely that he is going to give you that specific information through normal questioning.

One of the reasons that some folks will cooperate right from the start, is that they fear what will happen to them if they don't. But if we declare to the world that we will not use water-boarding tactics or the like -- how much information do you think will be volunteer then?

But what we really need, is for some of you geniuses out here to get out of this board and take all your interrogation techniques that you seem to know so much about -- over to the field where we can use some of that magic!

Akagi
You can't say that anything is "suffering" -- water-boarding or otherwise -- when it only lasts less than a minute.

Starvation, Cancer and Alzheimers would fall under the category of "suffering" -- not 30 seconds on a water-board.

My goodness.

Gotta Go
You all take care.

Waterboarding/SEVERE pain or suffering
The United Nations Convention Against Torture, defines torture very plainly:

"Any act by which SEVERE pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person..."

{In Saadi v Italy (2008), the defendant, a terrorism suspect, was facing deportation and alleged torture should he be deported back to Tunisia. The Court said:

ill-treatment must attain a minimum level of SEVERITY .. The assessment of this minimum level of SEVERITY is relative; it depends on all the circumstances of the case, such as the duration of the treatment, its physical and mental effects ..
to determine ..ill-treatment should be qualified as torture,.. This distinction would appear to have been embodied in the Convention to allow the special stigma of torture to attach only to deliberate inhuman treatment causing very serious and cruel suffering.”}

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/T/Torture.aspx

SEVERE--Sharp; afflictive; distressing; violent; extreme; as, severe pain, anguish, fortune; severe cold.(Webster's)

For a conviction in a criminal court, the proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Is Waterboarding(as practiced by the CIA) SEVERE pain or suffering?

Only 1 Minute?

terry:
"You can't say that anything is "suffering" -- water-boarding or otherwise -- when it only lasts less than a minute."

Sure you can. Suffering occurs in the mind. If you waterboard someone for 30 seconds every ten minutes, they suffer during the intevening 9:30, too.


BLAH BLAH, IS IT TORTURE?

I'd vote yes; if we ever have the choice of replacing the waterboard with a dentistry class; young students giving a root canal to any jihadi who won't give us intel.

That's not torture is it? "Open your mouth, Sheikh; this won't hurt."

AKAGI
for starters, i did not say clinton ratified the un charter, however, he does appoint those who will represent the u.s. the rest is technicalities... by the way, there is no need to talk down your nose just to express your ideas. it doesn't make your argument any stronger...

it is difficult finding the signatorie on the CAT. I know Clinton was fond of Felice Gaer, but not sure if she was the one who signed the charter. I know Akagi say 1988, but just doesn't sound right...

CAT
April 18, 1988 so I assume it was signed by the US Permanent Representative to the UN which would be Vernon Walters. He was appointed by Reagan. Yes. I did have to look that up.

akagi
thanks, but our congress did not act on it until 1994, which means the charter was useless up until that point. plus, you need to read the declarations and reservations regarding what we accecpted and didn't regarding the CAT. They completely wipe out all of the pertinent articles of the charter. Then the U.N. comes in and says they can come in and inspect our prisons at any time and the powers that be said no. So, I guess the questions are: What power does the UN actually have and According the the Statute congress drafted and approved in 1994, did the authorities break the law enacted by congress. If they did, they should pay.

reply to Edamon50 #9
Absolutely. And I think torture is immoral. What I'd like to see people grow up enough to understand is that in war (and we are at war)many things are necessary that are neither moral nor legal. Unfortunately, many Americans (of all ideological persuasions) think that our government should only do things that are moral and legal. And now we have a big public dispute about what should never have seen the light of day to begin with. It is absurd and, to me, revolting, to see government lawyers trying to parse paragraphs to determine whether this action or that was or was not 'torture.' Keep the lawyers and the moralizers away from our intelligence people. Let's all become adults about what living in this big, bad world may require.

Toucan
"They completely wipe out all of the pertinent articles of the charter. Then the U.N. comes in and says they can come in and inspect our prisons at any time and the powers that be said no."

That isn't CAT, but OPCAT and the US has not signed OPCAT. It has ratified CAT and that would make waterboarding a criminal offense.

reply to Toucan
I agree. I call this viewpoint Political Realism, and very few conservatives or liberals are erally willing to think realistically about war. Treaties and conventions can produce all sorts of fine-sounding 'rules,' but when the chips are really down, those 'rules' don't mean much. What matters is success or failure. The very fact that most Americans have grown up in our culture means that most of them are not disposed to take torture lightly. This is all well and good, but in time of war there have to be those who are willilng to let necessity, rather than morality or legality, be their guide. Orwell has a nice passage in one of his essays from the 1930s about how the right of the Brit to sleep peacefully is protected by rough men few of us would like to meet or know. Orwell was a political realist on this point, and I wish to God more Americans could think this way.

A forgotten aspect of the debate
As the debate over "torture" continues, there is a critical aspect that isn't getting enough attention: the legal status of those who say they are at war with us.

Since the Treaty of Westphalia centuries ago, nation-states have reserved for themselves the right to make war. The Geneva Conventions were written under this framework, specifically for uniformed soldiers of formal armies distinct and apart from civilians. The conventions were not written for guerillas or terrorists who live and fight among civilians, wear no uniforms or identifying insignia, and adhere to no humanitarian rules of conduct.

It is little known that after WWII, the Geneva
Conventions were amended under pressure of various international groups to afford unconventional warfare participants and fighters the same protections given to uniformed soldiers. In my opinion, we cannot justly settle the issue of detention of "enemy combatants" at Guantanimo Bay, conditions of interrogation, or whether torture has occurred, until the status of these shadow warriors is defined lawfully. The Geneva Conventions, as now written, disadvantage state militaries at the expense of their asymmetric opponents, and apply enormous pressures on conventional military forces to assume the amoral/immoral tactics of their barbaric foes.


TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 234
As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340--- -000-.html

"INTENDED to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering"

For a conviction in a criminal court, the proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt" that said procedure not only meets or exceeds an agreed upon definition of "severe physical or mental pain or suffering" but must also prove premeditation ("INTENDED to inflict").

Isn't lawyering fun?

definition: torture
Torture is immoral and always wrong when commited against innocent babies via abortion.
On the other hand , Torture on a muslim terrorist is very much moral, then, afterwards, the death penalty via bullet in the head is also moral and justified.
When Jesus comes back this time, He's coming as the "Crusher", and he will be taking out all those who are against him at the final battle.
Amen.

Nobody falls for this con job


All these pretexts are going nowhere. Obama and the spinmeisters only want to distract the world from Tea Parties; which are successfully raising huge indignation.

Keep up the protest, Tea Party Americans!


They are divided because they don't know
You talk like a professional who has see Americans in foreign jails or being held captive. Have you? I have and the International Red Cross accompanied us because they weren't allowed to see the American's being held captive. We saw the abuses of the American captives. When the International Red Cross saw the American captives they said on their reports that they didn't see anything out of the ordinary of a person being held captive. This is what we saw. American, in a small cell, naked covered in feces and no bed. The only light came in from a small hole in the door. A small bucket was put on the floor for the American to relieve himself. The International Red Cross did bring towels, soap, robe and water to wash the American off. When we left the International Red Cross wanted us to change what we saw to match what they had written. When we said we weren't, they threatened to report us for lying in our reports. Other countries are going to do whatever they want to American captives and it has nothing in the world to do with our interrogation methods because every country has their own way of getting information. Having an American captive is like having a gold card. It's just one more step up the ladder to bigger and better assignments by those above you. You would have mentioned this if you had known, but you don't. Neither do the American people. They are stuck in the political mode and nothing matters more to them then their politics even if it means turning anti American to get their agendas passed. Torture is in the eye of the beholder. We have allowed sympathizers of our enemies to define torture as anything they want in hopes of preventing our enemies from talking. What American would want that. An American wouldn't. An anti American would.

Communist torture
Despite millions of Soviet people have been tortured by Stalin; Chinese by Mao, etc., the American Left justified torture as unavoidable when proletariat builds new Communist society. After this new, highly moral and fair Communist society is installed and protected, it will be the first time in the history of mankind that all people live in harmony. So torture waw permissible because the goal was so attractive!

American Left supported Soviet industrialization and collectivization, formation of the Chief Directorate of Camps (GYLAG: Glavnoe Upravlenie Lagerei). American Left even transferred the secrets of the nuclear bomb to Beria and Stalin, of all people!

The Left was silent when the Soviet dissidents were thrown in the psychiatric wards and treated harshly with strong medications that disabled them for life.

But now, because it all happened under Bush, the Left is so vocal. They want blood! Not despots blood (Castro, Chavez, etc.) but legally elected American government's. Their rage has never applied toward dictators, never. The Left loves dictators!

In my view, torture should not be a tool of a civilized society. But intense interrogation, properly supervised and documented, should be allowed in cases of immediate national emergency.

On the other hand, ask the "brave", bomb planting "revolutionary" William Ayers or his friends on the Left: Michael Moore, Janine Garofalo, Sean Penn, "professor" Churchill and others, what would they choose: die a slow death in the hands of Islamists or "torture" one of them and live. That will be a show!

Unfortunately, our media stopped asking tough questions, unless, of course, you voted for George W. Bush...

WE STILL TREAT THE TERRIORIST BETTER
THAN ANYONE ELSE,ON THE WHOLE EARTH SO ALL YOU LIBERAL TROLLS STOP CRYING,THE PHONY LIBERALS ALWAYS WEEP FOR THE TERRIORIST.WHAT A SHAME.

GOP silliness
Thank you, Bill Maher!

Los Angeles Times
April 24, 2009
By Bill Maher

"If conservatives don't want to be seen as bitter people who cling to their guns and religion and anti-immigrant sentiments, they should stop being bitter and clinging to their guns, religion and anti-immigrant sentiments.

It's been a week now, and I still don't know what those "tea bag" protests were about. I saw signs protesting abortion, illegal immigrants, the bank bailout and that gay guy who's going to win "American Idol." But it wasn't tax day that made them crazy; it was election day. Because that's when Republicans became what they fear most: a minority.

Here are the big issues for normal people: the war, the economy, the environment, mending fences with our enemies and allies, and the rule of law.

And here's the list of Republican obsessions since President Obama took office: that his birth certificate is supposedly fake, he uses a teleprompter too much, he bowed to a Saudi guy, Europeans like him, he gives inappropriate gifts, his wife shamelessly flaunts her upper arms, and he shook hands with Hugo Chavez and slipped him the nuclear launch codes.

Do these sound like the concerns of a healthy, vibrant political party?

It's sad what's happened to the Republicans. They used to be the party of the big tent; now they're the party of the sideshow attraction, a socially awkward group of mostly white people who speak a language only they understand. Like Trekkies, but paranoid...."

Obtaining Security Information
When an enemy combatant will not abide by the rules and norms of warfare, they remove themselves from the umbrella protection of those internationally agreed upon rules and norms. Al Queada and other terrorist groups have already made that decision. Those who are so opposed to harsh measures in order to obtain vital security information are lying when they say that even if it meant saving their own families they still would not agree to it. Such make their boast on the blogs and commentaries, but human nature would kick in if the situation became real and threatened them or their loved ones to a horrible death.
They would be the first to say, "The hell with water boarding, rip the bastards eyes out!"

Also, U.S. constitutional guarantees are for American citizens, or those who have valid entry visas etc. Geneva convention and any rules of warfare are for combatants who engage in the oxymoron, "Civilized Warfare."
The men in Guantanamo do not fit these conditions.

This being said, we should, if at all possible, obtain information by humane means. If that doesn't work then use deceptions and illusion oriented tactics. If that doesn't work, and some terrorist can provide information that is going to save innocent American lives, then by all means apply the enhanced persuasive techniques.

I Have An Idea & Agaki

Let's just give terrorists cupcakes.

That will ease the people against "torture", but leave them vuniarble to terrorists.

I live in NOLA, which was decimated by Katrina, so terrorists would have little interest in doing anything here.

Agaki, I will stop talking about Israel when you stop talking about the glories of Imperial Japan.

Social Engineering
The democrat Stimulaus Package has more to do with social engineering than it does with good governing! Democrats, socialists, are the real control freaks of society.

If the left lunatic fring, Bill Maher, wants to be taken seriously, they, he should embrace conservative values and principles!

Enhanced "Interrogation" Techniques
Torture vs. enhanced "Interrogation" Techniques:
Bottom line, it's left lunacy for a country not to protect it's own citezens against imminent terrorist threats. The left has taken this argument from the common sense use of "enhanced interrogation techniques", such as water boarding, to put us on the defense by calling it "torture". Torture to a terrorist is cutting off your head on national television, "enhanced interrogation techniques", such as water boarding is the least we can do!

MengeleCare
I lived in the UK where the "rich" people went to private doctors. Everyone else was put on waiting lists.

I lived in France (and my sister still does). We all see doctors in the USA, BUT

We wind up with the zany medical care that exist in the USA systems. In the last 4 weeks, I have been told that: #1) that I had low blood sugar; #2) that I had a seizure disorder; #3) that I was in perfect health even though I was experiencing black outs, and #4) that I have cancer of the pancreas, but should have a MRI and heart scan.

It is easier to get a driver license from the DMI, than it is figure out the Mengeles.

And, The Left wants to scream bloody murder about torture?


NoBama
If we as a nation consider enhanced interrogation and water boarding as torture we are doomed to be obliterated by our enemies.

This whole thing is a lefty panty waste created shill job being perpetrated on the public. Lots of phony hand wringing, finger pointing and verbiage by the MSM (print and TV) while the Messiah has placed our economy/country in major debt, is nationalizing industries and taxing the prductive into 3rd world status.

When will the people wake up to this radical facists regime currently occupying the WH?

Sorry

I meant DMV.

Torture isn't moral
That's why I am glad we didn't toture anyone.

Akagi
Once again, the topic of torture brings out the stupidest, most swinish, the most mindless, and the most pathetic in my fellow conservatives.
Once again, those who work this hard to rationalize torture are themselves the problem.


Torture is IMMORAL

Hitler tortured prisoners, Stalin tortured prisoners, Mao tortured prisoners and geroge bush tortured prisoners.
What these EVIL leaders have in common, they were all blood thirsty and loved to torture Prisoners, whether the prisoners were children, women or seniors.
In other words, they were all EVIL.
Any human being who promotes or agrees torture is an EVIL person, period.

Sam
Barack, dont pardon these war criminals of bush adminstration criminal enterprize.

Pat, what about me?
I'm willing to bet Marines still get qualified in the gas chamber twice annually; a mixture of CS & DM. (tear & vomiting agents)

I'm in favor of gassing these terrorists until they puke their guts and give up the information we seek.

If its not too harsh to subject our young men and women to the gas chamber, it certainly not too harsh for our enemy Pat.

Grow up and stop being an idiot. The same goes for the rest of you idiots who think waterboarding is torture.

Torture
The torture debate is torturing me. I understand that we’re the good guys and we’re not supposed to do bad things, even though the bad guys do them to us. What that means is if the terrorists take our people hostage, beat them, mutilate them, or even chop their heads off, we can’t even spray a little water in their faces or frighten them with threats. But, the water and threats and other “Enhanced” techniques seem to work in providing us with information that will prevent these clowns from taking more hostages or putting more hurt on this country. Go figure. I remember a line attributed to baseball player Jimmy Piersall (he may have been crazy, but crazy smart): “NICE GUYS FINISH LAST.” We’d be wise to remember that as we pursue this torture debate.

If torture
will save Americans, I am for it. I agree with David in PA. Get some stones you wusses.

intelligence
If Feinstien is in charge of anything, it won't be intelligent, you can count on that.

David of NV

David of NV is promoting Gaz Chambers of Hitler, he is telling us that it is okey to gaz
humans, in other words he is a Neo-nazi racist.
David is one of those guys who symphatizes the likes of timothy mgveigh and hitler.
Evil is everywhere, even in nevada.

Sam
Be bold Barack, we've got your back.

Gee, why do the posters from Michigan
denounce so strongly the enhanced interrogation of Islamic terrorists?

{Michigan: the Islamic capital of the US

As of 2005, Michigan held the largest and still growing Muslim population in the United States and the second largest Arab population outside of the Middle East.}

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/zieve/070111

Sam, MI

Enjoy your "classic" Pontiac and make sure to tax the emissions from the cattle grazing in Detroit.

Now that GM is owned by either the government(50%) or the UAW, you can be certain that you will be driving a car worthy of one made by Morgus The Magnificient. I am not so sure that any of them will have your back.

Our methods are certainly moral
"The morality of killing or inflicting severe pain depends, then, not only on the nature of the act, but on the circumstances and motive."

Motive is not a valid criterion. That is a Kantian idea, and it has been philosophically invalidated, like it or not, because it lapses into subjectivism.

What matters is the principle that civilized men have no moral duty to pretend that terrorists have rights, and have every right to defend themselves against such by any means necessary.

If it is not established that these actions were immoral and we do not all agree they they were immoral, then on what possible grounds should anyone "be held to account" for it? That is illogical, it is lily-livered appeasement of the left, and the left knows it. Do you think you will mollify them if you offer up some conservative human sacrifices?

Funny
How the left has found its "morality" about torture, seems it is still lost about abortion however.........

I Volunteer

To undergo waterboarding, if the freaking doctors quit tortouring me with the "You're Fine To You Might Have Pancreatic Cancer" statements over the last 4 weeks; and,

Will represent, on a pro bono basis, all of those in Manhattan, who suffered emotional distress as a result of the low-altitude, flyover yesterday.

Yep
seems it is okay dokey to kill the innocent, but really bad to make the evil uncomfortable..... yea that is consistant leftie ideology!

I Volunteer

To undergo waterboarding, if the freaking doctors quit tortouring me with the "You're Fine To You Might Have Pancreatic Cancer" statements over the last 4 weeks; and,

Will represent, on a pro bono basis, all of those in Manhattan, who suffered emotional distress as a result of the low-altitude, flyover yesterday.

Wendy
Great post, I have a space left on my deer lease if your interested? You seem like you would be a hunter.

Denise
Prayers for your health.

St. Denis a/k/a Denise
"You're Fine To You Might Have Pancreatic Cancer" statements"

I understand the torture. I was told by an internist at UCI Medical Center, 22 years ago, that I probably had colon cancer-my mother had died from the same.

The GP at my college made the correct diagnosis--IBS, w/o any tests; medication solved the problem.

Doctors should NOT say cancer until they have proof.

This is all academic...
Is water-boarding torture? What about postural discomfort? How about loud music and sleep deprivation? The endless debate on this subject solves nothing, and proves nothing - except that some people who hate America will go to any lengths to see her criticized, even committing what used to be called sedition.
Such pseudo-academic posturing ultimately accomplishes nothing, but then it is not meant to. This issue has become a political club with which to punish the GWB Administration, nothing more.

As any combat soldier will tell you, once the first bullets go down range, there is no "why" only whether one is willing to what is necessary to survive or not. Only a corrupt, soft and utterly safe society even has this argument to begin with. To the pollyannas who insist that the U.S. meet some imaginary and unattainable standard of purity, take off your blinders and see reality for what it is. Even the most virtuous nation has committed acts of cruelty against other human beings; no state and no people are exempt. Should the U.S. hold itself to a higher standard? Yes, but not so high that it is unattainable and strengthens our enemies.

Once a nuclear device goes off in a major American (or perhaps Israeli) city, then we'll find out just what some of the self-appointed moralists are really made of. The suspicion here is that they'll abandon their concern for the welfare of our enemies as soon as they are remotely threatened. Time will certainly tell.

As consistuted now, the hypocricy on display with this issue is staggering.


Last week
I was wakeboarding on Lake Mead, took an awful spill and ended up swallowing a lot of water as well as taking a lot up my nose. It gave me a nasty headache for about half and hour and I lost a contact as well.

I'm just wondering...should I turn myself in to the U.N. for waterboarding myself? What would be my punishment?

The next time some ghetto thug pulls up next to me at a stoplight and has his bass thumping so loud that it's causing my heart to skip a beat, I think I'll let him know that he's in violation the the U.N. Convention Against Torture because his "music" is causing me severe physical and emotional distress.

This debate is ridiculous. Anyone that thinks waterboarding, sleep deprivation, putting someone in a confined space, or playing loud music for long periods of time is torture doesn't have an older brother or has never taken a multi-day road trip with a bunch of friends.

So many people in this nation have become such hyper sensitive pu$$ies. The blame for the next attack will rest squarely on the shoulders of the left.


Spending time in jail
Is torture
Making a kid sit at the dinner table and eat all on their plate is torture for the kid.

Anything that brings discomfort is torture.

No disfigurement or is it unreasonable to water board a terrorist.

Reading any post from the brain dead liberals is a torture worse than water boarding

scott
"I'm just wondering...should I turn myself in to the U.N. for waterboarding myself? What would be my punishment?"

I got a laugh out of that.
See my post @6:20 PM
You must show INTENT and SEVERITY to be in violation of law.

Leftists can't recognize evil
Sam (#16): If you are not capable of telling the difference between Mao, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot on one hand, and the Bush Administration on the other, you are a cretinous fool. Mao is the most prolific killer in history, having exterminated fifty million people, most of them fellow Chinese. Hitler and Stalin each killed uncounted millions in gulags, death camps and torture chambers; Cambodia under communist Pol Pot had such killing that human skulls were piled in huge pyramids, some two million in all eventually.

Let's not forget Saddam Hussein, who delighted in feeding live dissidents into shredders feet-first, the better to hear their screams as they died. He allowed his sadistic sons to rape and then execute young women in front of their families. What did the Bush Administration do? Captured and executed Saddam after a lawful trial, hunted down and killed both of his sons, thereby liberating a nation and ridding the world of a terrible tyrant. This comparable to Hitler (for example) exactly how??

I would suggest you read some history, except that I doubt you are literate enough to do so.

Been sipping that Obama koolaide lately, have you?


Sol & David

Thank you and I am heading out to MD Anderson to get out of the Oschner health care system. It would be nice to get a real diagnosis for a change.

The other thing, don't you guys find it humorous that people fail to understand that the very existence of the State of Israel is threatened every single day.

The genius of Nethanayu was evidenced when he told Hamas that he would recognize the State of Palestine, if they acknowledged the State of Israel. What did the Iranian-funded leaders of Hamas do? They balked.

And, I am not a Jew, am named in honor of one of my ancient relatives, who was a French Catholic saint, am Baptist, but happen to understand Israel and Iran better than most of those, who deny that Nethanayu has put "The Samson Option" on the table.

Tit-for-tat
Akagi, you by any chance name yourself for the IJN carrier of the same name? Are you an apologist for Tojo and Dai Nippon?

No major power in history, not one, has treated prisoners of war more humanely than the United States (That's assuming "enemy combatants" are in fact POWs, which is by no means settled). That includes the GWOT, even in Guantanimo Bay... leftist propaganda has it that the guards torture the prisoners, but it is actually the inmates who abuse the soldiers.
One female medic was so brutalized by a detainee that she required 16 plastic surgeries to repair her disfigurement. Our personnel are severely punished if they so much as try to defend themselves.

Akagi, get off your high horse. Perhaps it is instructive to recall, from the example of WWII Japan, what is torture, and what is not. During the Rape of Nanking, a half million Chinese civilians were slaughtered, and rape was a sport for Japanese soldiers. Enlisted men were encouraged to practice bayonet technique on live Chinese, and officers had "samurai" swordsmanship contests of who could behead Chinese the most rapidly. Let us not forget the infamous Unit 731, which conducted gruesome medical experiments on live civilians and POWs, and used germ warfare, something not even Hitler stooped to. There is at least one proven instance of Japanese military personnel committing cannibalism by killing and eating several captured USN pilots.

The U.S. uses sleep deprivation, "stress" postures, plays some loud music, and sexually humiliates some suspected jihadists (the same people who have no compunction at beheading captured civilians on video). How is this in any way comparable to the barbaric abuses of Imperial Japan, or for that matter, the Islamists we are fighting?

As another poster said, how would you handle these people? All that's left is giving them milk and cookies, I guess, and holding hands and singing songs.

Denise
MD Anderson is the best I will pray for your health.

Iran for all their posturing has to be afraid of Netanyahu, I hope and pray for Israel.

Whats funny for me is that Obama, a public professing Christian, has virtually given Israel the back of his hand. They are our only reliable ally in the area.

Torture
Andrew McCarthy asst US attorney had this to say about the Dems unwillingness to pass a bill making waterboarding illegal;

"When Senate Democrats didn't have the votes, they voted to make waterboarding illegal. Now they have the votes, but there's no effort to ban waterboarding. And the reason is that they are more interested in setting off a partisan witch hunt than passing a principled ban on something they say is torture."

The Dems would also by that action be admitting that it is not now illegal.

What Constitutes Torture?

David, Sol, and all sane-minded people:

How can The Left justify the marriage of little girls as young a 8, female circumsicion, and stoning of or other slow execution for women?

Are these not actual cases where millions of females have literally been tortured?

For most of the Middle East, these are accepted "rights"; yet, we are supposed to grant habeas corpus to detainees.

If Torture is permissable....
If torture is permissable, then human life has no ultimate value and human rights are a facile notion. The Government can and will find or create a rationale to expand its use on American citizens over time and Constitutional protections and safeguards will be trumped.

Values of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, right to a trial and others enshrined in our Constitution and Bill of Rights can and will be violated by our government that chooses and targets "Dissidents". No proof or trial of wrong doing or guilt would be necessary since human rights would have been eviserated and humans do not hold inherent worth or value.

Why fight and die any war when human life has no value here or abroad and can flushed by some dictator or government that is acting in the interest of "national security" to mask oppression.

Torturers can make up any excuse to use S&M treatment against groups or people they don't like and later on lie about the people who were disposed and no longer have a voice.

Wasn't it the Jews in Germany that had polluted the banks and businesses and ruined the economy that were marched off to death camps by the 3rd reich? No human rights protected them.

The false argument repeated endlessly by Conservatives is that torture produces actionable intelligence. There is neither proof nor reason to support that assertion.

Put yourself in the victim's shoes for a moment...if you were a soldier prepared to die for our country and supsected that your torturers would put you to death in the end regardless of what you said....would your last gasp of life be to spill the beans and betray your brothers and country or would you mislead the enemy?

Torture is ineffective, immoral and the province of sadomasachists who use the facade of national security to mask their perverse delight in getting jolies off of others pain.

The left
Believes in torture, they torture the unborn with impunity and no squemishness, they support the torture of women in sub Saharan Africa, they love dictators who deal in torture, real torture!

But evil men who are waterboarded, not harmed mind you just made quite uncomfortable, something BTW my son in the AIrForce has experienced in SERE training, this according the left is beyond the pale. Their situational ethics are showing again.

Abortion
People when the unborn have no rights or legal standing, when they can be flushed away with impunity then the very natural slippery progression will lead you to killing the aged and sick or the kids with Downs syndrome or other handicaps. Life has no value and it becomes easier to torture and murder.

If you really detest torture then stand for life and get on board the pro life movement.

"Yes, We Can!" In Iran

If it worked for Obama, why wouldn't Ahmadinejad use the same slogan for his campaign?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/ahmadinejad-borrow s-obama_n_192460.html

Maybe, he can slapped an Obama "Hope and Change" logo on the nuclear weapon Iran is in the process of finalizing with the hopes of vaporizing Israel.

To David in TX
You said:
"Abortion
People when the unborn have no rights or legal standing, when they can be flushed away with impunity then the very natural slippery progression will lead you to killing the aged and sick or the kids with Downs syndrome or other handicaps. Life has no value and it becomes easier to torture and murder.

If you really detest torture then stand for life and get on board the pro life movement."

The problem with the Pro-Life movement is that most are not genuine in their concern. Pro-lifer's support the death penalty, want war with Iran, are anti-environment, vote Republican and want reduced wages and beenfits for familes and a whole host of other family unfriendly policies.

Since the Pro-Life movement is neither thoughtful nor serious about the welfare of human beings and families outside of the womb, why should anyone else take their message seriously?

St. Denis a/k/a Denise
I will pray for your health, add you to my prayer list. I still pray for people I haven't talked to in 10 years.
I believe in persistence.

Luke 11:5-8

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2011;&vers ion=49;

Bring on the inquisitions
I don't think the libs are going to push too hard to learn the truth because it would have to come to light that they were informed all along and never raised a finger to stop it. Also Mr. Buchannan, when they ban war on moral grounds, then maybe you can suggest that torture is immoral. War, as far as I know is still legal and once it is declared, people get killed and cities and countries get destroyed. Where in God's name does it say that these acts are moral? To say that approved tactics to extract information from the enemy is immoral is the same as saying that war is immoral. You can't isolate one from the other. Consequently, this whole question of morality is moot.

Holding the High Ground
I agree with Pat that the nation is divided over this issue. I was among those who applauded the shooting of pirates in Somalia but I also feel torture is contrary to our values. I still do not agree with torturing prisoners of war. We treated the Nazis and Japanese better as prisoners and they deserved to be treated worse than Al-Qaeda does. The point here to be made is that we have to be careful with what we do. I find solace in the Bible and offer the following passage from the Third Letter of John 1:11 which reads, "Beloved, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. The one that does good is of God; the one that does evil has not seen God."

Jeffery, stop being a moron
You say you don't know what the "tea-bag" parties were about. Obviously, you don't WANT to know or you would have seen that hundreds of thousands of WORKING people took time from their jobs and business to protest what Obama has done to the free market system. The insane trillion dollar bailouts and the 9000 earmarked budget that the man promised would never pass his office. These are the real Americans Jeffery. The ones who actually work for a living and do not want to be puppets of the governments, who do not rollover and beg whenever the government makes it's presense felt. These are the people that were busy with their productive lives while liberal weasels and slimeballs were working overtime to CHANGE our government and make America a 3rd world country so that the they will no longer feel guilty about abortions, gay marriages, or America being the most productive and powerful country on earth.

Georgia Boy
As I have pointed out, Akagi has many contexts. Tojo? Not really. I am rather fond of Tamon Yamaguchi and Isoroku Yamamoto though.

What the US has done is torture under the CAT and the US government has admitted to the Committee Against Torture which was a body created by the CAT which the US ratified in 1994 that it has used torture--in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo.

If the US didn't want to follow the mandates of the CAT it should not have signed nor ratified it. Same thing I addressed to the PRC over the UN conventions on human and political rights.

Baradiel

"That's why I am glad we didn't toture anyone."

Yes you (the US) did as it admitted such to the UN back in 2005 and the chief legal officer--a former military judge--at Gitmo admitted the same thing in 2009.

Denise
I never bring up the glories of Japan, I do bring up Japan when some one decides to make an issue of my name thinking they are being oh so clever or when the subject is brought up in a column or a comment to a column. You don't see me SPAMMING every column on TH with Ishin Seito Shimpu (a far-right wing political party in Japan with 0% of the seats in the Diet, unlike Israel, Japan has better sense than to elect far right-wing nuts into the legislature) propaganda as you do with Likud.

It is rather simple Denise, the US signed and ratified the CAT and what the US has done violates the CAT and it (the US)has admitted as such. If the US doesn't want to follow the mandates of the CAT, it should have never signed (under a Republican administration I might add)nor ratified the CAT. The CAT is the supreme law of the land, I thought conservatives supported the rule of law...I suppose only the laws they agree with, eh?

FIRST from MA
How can you go from making a valid point of the U.S. governemnt officials taking drastic interrogation methods that we justify use against enenmy combatants and then use this tactic against U.S. Citizens. This is a very valid point and one that needs to be discussed.

But then you completely destroy your credit by discussing S & M and refering to people and "their perverse delight in getting jolies off of others pain." As if this even rates high enough to be in the conversation.

Getting back to your actual point about the threat to American citizens being tortured:
How would making it illegal to use such methods against our enemies make Amercian citizens protected against its use on us by our Govt?

Secondly: How is it even possible to bring morality into war? War is about killing, maiming, and torturing...

GUNNY
You appear to be a thinking man and remind of many Gunnys I have worked with in the past... I have a question for you. I have been contemplating this over and over and can't seem to come up with anything that is logical... The question is: With regards to our Government, Congress, Obama, & even Bush II, appear to have done and are currently doing, everything within their powers, to destroy our country. Open borders, non-stop printing presses of our dollar, giving out secret/top-secret information, taking over banks/corporation, etc...

My question is that this appears to me they are doing everything they can to destroy any stability, so: Is this intentional? Why would they do this? What would be gained? Since both Republicans/Democrats working together, How do we stop this ball?

I know these are a lot of questions, but when you come with the title Gunny, you should expect this right?

whoa back up toucan

Dear Toucan, you said:

. . . How is it even possible to bring morality into war? War is about killing, maiming, and torturing... "

Wrong. That may sometimes happen. Ideally, however, there is a concept of the just war.

Plainly stated,

War is about Good versus Evil. Morality is good, injustice is evil.

Abortioin and Torture
Abortion and Torture
Now that the nation is so focused on the potential of torture, isn't it time we raised the issue that abortions, late term abortions at the very least, constitute torture! When one considers the procedure that is used by the abortionist to crack open the skulls of innocent baby boys and girls to hasten their evacuation from the womb, shouldn't our congress consider the option of eliminating abortions because of torture! What about the practice of leaving abortion survivors on isolated shelves in closets to die of neglect, thirst and starvation? How could any word other than torture be used to characterize this practice?

reply to fccons, TX

That's a logical suggestion that always gets ignored by half the voters.

You ought to understand why. Roughly half of this group consists of women. That means women registered in both major parties.

Sadly; half of our GOP membership is women; and of that gender, plenty of them think they have "the right to choose." More than a few are always single-issue feminist voters, who sell out at election time to the Democrat party. They serve the abortion side.

Blame the devil; he supports Democrats big-time! Does he support torture so-called, by our country's self-defense?

NO--The devil wants to wipe out our country. He fervently wishes America may become a Chinese Communist satellite; or totally Islamic, or both. What is it leads me to say all this?

The writing on the wall.


DREADNAUGHT
To accept your "just" argument you must accept the good vs. evil debate. In every war that I have ever studied, both sides thought/justified their own sides as being the "good" side and of course, the other "evil".

In all seriousness, is there really "good" and "evil" as you claimed. Its not like you can go open up a box and say this is "pure evil" or "pure good". They are nothing but a type of consciousness, an idea. We experience something and run it through our "mental" filter and that is where we place the label on it. So, does "good" and "evil" exist.

So, to justify a war by saying it is moral, because what we are fighting for is noble does not make it moral... Killing and maiming others is still an immoral act... Sometimes we believe it to be necessary (as I do regarding the jihad terrorists), but that does not make it moral... Just necessary...

Thank you, Toucan

Well-written.

I spoke in abstracts; only an intuition that strikes me useful. Just as no one can concede all wars come down to good versus evil;

We'd be foolish to lament every conflict as if morality were being destroyed in the hearts of all mankind. Take a good common denominator, not the most ungodly, I suggest. Our Lord was satisfied to judge it all as inevitable. Imagine? The Son of God!

Jesus prophesied the worst things! There will be wars and rumors of wars. Charity will have grown cold! Trials and great tribulations!

There we have it, by my calculation: Good vs. Evil.


Sol
I read your verses and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Peace and love for you forever.
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