Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Friday, February 20, 2009
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Long Retreat
by Pat Buchanan
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


"The situation in Afghanistan is deteriorating," said President Obama, as he announced deployment of 17,000 more U.S. troops.

"I'm absolutely convinced that you cannot solve the problem of Afghanistan, the Taliban, the spread of extremism in that region, solely through military means."

"(T)here is no military solution in Afghanistan," says Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. Said U.S. Commander Gen. David McKiernan yesterday, U.S. and NATO forces are "stalemated."

Such admissions by our military and political leadership in a time of war call to mind other words heard back in 1951, when Gen. Douglas MacArthur delivered his farewell address to the Congress:

"(O)nce war is forced upon us," said MacArthur, "there is no other alternative than to apply every available means to bring it to a swift end. War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision.

"In war, there is no substitute for victory."

But if victory over the Taliban has been ruled out by the United States, have the Taliban ruled out a victory over the American Empire to rival the one their fathers won over the Soviet Empire?

What price are we prepared to pay, in "prolonged indecision," to avert such an end to a war now in its eighth year?

America had best brace herself for difficult days ahead.

For stepping back from the dreary prognosis for Afghanistan, a new reality becomes clear. The long retreat has begun.

Whether it is in the 23 months Gen. Petraeus favors, or the 16 months Obama promised, the United States is coming home from Iraq.

The retreat from Central Asia is already underway. Expelled from the K-2 air base in Uzbekistan in 2005, the United States has now been ordered out of the Manas air base in Kyrgyzstan. Abkhazia and South Ossetia, ripped away from Georgia by Russia last August, are never going to be returned. And we all know it.

Georgia and Ukraine, most realists now realize, are not going to be admitted to NATO. We're not going to fight Russia over the Crimea. And the U.S. anti-missile missiles and radars George Bush intended to deploy in Poland and the Czech Republic will not now be deployed.

For Washington has fish to fry with Russia, and the price of her cooperation is withdrawal of U.S. military forces from her backyard and front porch. And the warm words flowing between Moscow and Washington suggest the deal is done.

With tensions rising in Korea, too, it is hard to believe President Obama will bolster ground forces on the peninsula, when even Donald Rumsfeld was presiding over a drawdown and a shifting of U.S. troops away from the DMZ.

In Latin America, the United States seems reconciled to the rise of an anti-American radical-socialist coalition, led by Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and embracing Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua and Cuba.

Partisans of President Bush may blame Obama for presiding over a strategic retreat, but it is the Bush administration that assured and accelerated such a retreat.

As Robert Pape of the University of Chicago writes in The National Interest: "America is in unprecedented decline. The self-inflicted wounds of the Iraq war, growing government debt, increasingly negative current-account balances and other internal economic weaknesses have cost the United States real power in today's world of rapidly spreading knowledge and technology. If present trends continue, we will look back at the Bush administration years as the death knell of American hegemony."

Pape's harsh verdict is rooted in his reading of history, that the "size of an economy relative to potential rivals ultimately determines the limits of power in international politics."

In other words, when a great nation's share of world product shrinks, the nation's strategic position follows. Between 2000 and 2008, the U.S. share of world product plunged from 31 percent to 23 percent, and is expected to fall to 21 percent by 2013 -- a decline of 32 percent in 13 years. China's share of world product over the same period will more than double to 9 percent.

Pape went back to the 19th century to correlate the rise of the great powers like Britain and the commensurate growth in their share of world product. He found the Bush decline had no precedent.

"America's relative decline since 2000 of some 30 percent represents a far greater loss of relative power in a shorter time than any power shift among European great powers roughly from the end of the Napoleonic Wars to World War II. It is one of the largest relative declines in modern history. Indeed, in size, it is clearly surpassed by only one other great-power decline, the unprecedented internal collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991."

With an economy still three times that of China, America continues to be the world's most powerful nation, fully capable of defending all of its vital interests. We can no longer, however, defend every ally to whom we made a commitment over the six decades since NATO was formed.

Obama's assignment: Rebuild U.S. productive power, and execute a strategic withdrawal from non-vital commitments.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Pat Buchanan's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
We agree again Pat....
to a large extent anyway....this is what I posted earlier concerning the Russkies...

Whether the U.S. likes it or not.....the Russians still believe they have 'spheres of influence" that they should and will control....

Installing missiles in Poland and putting Western Forces on Moscow's front doorstep does not endear us to them. America is SUPPOSED to be a Republic and/or a democracy...not the policeman of the entire world.

Our military forces are small in number, scattered around the globe in 80 nations, and overstretched in two combat theaters presently with defense cuts forthcoming from the Obama Administration. We no longer have the military muscle (at present) to contain the Russians in their own backyard. It has to be done with diplomacy (at present).

That missile shield for the Poles and Czechs should be studied further...and NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia delayed. It's madness to poke at an awakening BEAR with a sharp-tipped spear, especially at the entrance of its own cave!

Utilize Poland, Ukraine, and Georgia as independent of both the U.S. and Russia and create the necessary "buffer zone" to insure Russia sees no further encroachment into its' sphere of influence. Miscalculations could have catastrophic consequences. As far as any threat to Europe is concerned, believe you me, the Russians want NO PART of Germany possibly remilitarizing, along with France and Great Britain with substantial military punch as well.

Besides, we may need combat troops on OUR southern border if the issues affecting Mexico intensifies out of control!

Don't blame me...I voted for you!

A short modern history
The US rebuilt Europe and Japan after the war and prospered greatly by sending ahead American dollars to nations to whom we then sold great American products - from planes and cars to razor blades and chewing gum.

Then in the '70's we began buying from them junk which got better in a hurry. Then they duplicated our trick - exporting capital to struggling economies

In 20 years the Soviet Empire collapsed and the world was our oister. The US was the undisputed leader of the world.

Instead of being humbled and considerate we thought we can do no wrong and quickly became in every respect the world's drunken and debauched sailor. Having spent our last dime on booze and babes and trinkets we borrowed against the farm and all the implements in it.

Then too drunk to care we stopped even guarding our gate and soon began selling our unborn sons and daughters to anyone who would take them.

Finally, the drunk collapsed into a stinking pool of socialist puke. Is this the end? Stay tuned.



Empires
Empires always die. Yet, there are some who seem to believe that the American empire was destined to live forever. Every empire, intoxicated with too much hubris, overreaches, bankrupts, and has to recede to its natural borders.

The high tide of American empire was Bush's administration and forays into the Middle East. We bit off more than we could chew, we marched off in search of monsters to destroy, and ended up destroying our republic.

It is time to come home and be a republic again.

Pape?
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! And that nasty Bush is the bad guy, and we know this because Pape says so -- after looking in on the 19th century Brits!

Give it a rest, Buchanan. Your assignment: Get a grip!

Oisters?
(Well, it WAS funny).

Probably the best ally the USA can have, right now, and for a long future, is Russia -- her, with all her spots.

Russia has the best virtue, for a continuing civilization -- guts. Guts like we used to have, and can have again.

Yes, my friends, take a real good look at our allies, today. Are there any more interesting, in the possibilities, than Russia?

Or do you think Great Britain, or Kosivo, will ever be able to return the favor? Or France? Or Italy? Or anybody else?

Poorly done.
Interesting reading if you like selective facts. This is on par with the authors WW2 history.

Some truth, some fiction, some personal opinion. All thrown together to form a personal conclusion.


America in Decline
I agree with most of the points Buchanan makes in this column. Afghanistan is another Iraq-like quicksand. Nobody wins in Afghanistan, ask the British, the Russians, and even the Greeks. Our country lost discipline in its military policies, never mind the outright shambles of its economic policies.

But to expect Barack Obama, a neophyte with illusions of socialist grandeur, to return the U.S. to a position of power and affluence is the same as expecting the seas to roll back as a result of puny GW placebos.

America lost discipline in the years of affluence undermined by the termites of political correctness and the decadence of the liberal philosophy that is summed up in the anguished cry, "Can't we all just get along?"

No leader has arisen, only Pied Pipers like Al Gore and Barack Obama, whose sentimentality and atheistic and socialist visions of affluence and environmental virginity clash with the harsh realities of a universe that is implacable.

Child Barack Obama was selected to lead and he will lead us into the garbage bin of history.

Pat Buchanan
Who are you talking to?

You can forget about what Bush did or didn't do and what his intentions were or weren't.

But if you think that Barrack Obama is interested in rebuilding our "productive power"...then you've obviously been in a coma as of late.

Pat, what is it in the water where all you pundits and people "in the know" are gathered? Why is it that you folks endlessly look behind the bookshelves and under the seat cushions for answers -- when the answer is an 800 lb. gorilla standing right in front of you?

Let me put it this way. If these Leftists in our government were to go to work everyday wearing a "Che" T-Shirt while carrying their leather-bound copy of the Communist Manifesto under their arm, would you "smartest people in the room"...ever get the hint?

Obama needs to rebuild our "productive power"? Lord have mercy on our souls...

Please Pat stop it already
-"Obama's assignment: Rebuild U.S. productive power, and execute a strategic withdrawal from non-vital commitments."

-Yeah, right.

One of Buchanan's better articles.
If nothing else, looming financial imperatives will impale the neocon agenda of extending a "Pax Americana" throughout the globe.

The Empire has pressing needs at home.

That is the practical, the economic consideration.

On Afghanistan, NATO nations are wanting to withdraw. They simply will not maintain forces there indefinitely.

That is true.

BUT, Russia has no interest in having a radicalized Afghanistan agitating Muslim populations on her border.

Nor does China.

They both have problems with Muslim extremists within their nations.

China and Russia would join with the U.S. to prevent that.

The deal will be withdrawal of foreign troops in exchange for the Taliban control of much of Afghanistan, with Taliban agreeing not to export radicalism.

Which means a Taliban that repudiates Al Qaida.

I think Taliban would agree to that, in exchange for control of Afghanistan and removal of foreign troops.

Taliban is composed of students and fighters derived from tribes indigenous to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Al Qaida is composed of foreigners, Arabs.

Afghans are not Arab.

Robert Pape is correct. Our nation did suffer self inflicted wounds due to the Iraq decision, and the growing government debt.

And Obama will likely increase this debt, at least in the shortterm(Stimulus spending).

But I welcome the new priorities of attending to our own needs, rather than neglecting our needs at home as we sanctimoniously go about the globe foisting our ideas of democratic governance upon others.





Shock and Awe
I voted both times for Jorge Bush -- that's who the Repubs put before us -- and left me no choice. If Jorge Bush -- the open border, CFR, globalist, NAFTA, lock up our border guards, sat around doing nothing while the crooks ripped up the country via Wall Street -- president had done what he should have, we might still be okay. But now look -- Zero. Bush and friends invaded Iraq with out provocation while he sent a meager few to Afghanistan and built up a debt that we will never get away from, while helping to ship jobs to Mehico and China.

It is time for America to realign
The EU is larger than the USA and are fully capable of defending themselves. Let them increase their defense budgets and prepare to protect themselves from aggressors. In other words we need to dissolve NATO and pull back our troops and close our bases over there.

We should pull back from the DMZ in Korea. In fact, we should sell South Korea the military hardware necessary to repel North Korea and then we should pull back to our Blue water navy.

Afghanistan is not a war we can win unless we become absolutely ruthless. I mean junk yard dog mean. That will never happen so we should pull out like the whipped puppies we are. However; if we are determined to stay we should destroy the poppy fields and turn their farmers back to growing food and help them build up a market based economy. The poppy fields are just the easy way to make big money and it is adversely affect the lives and freedom of many people.

It is high time for the USA to draw back and rebuild our economy. We don't have to gut our military but we do need to gut the Federal government budget and power. Our military is only needed to address those individuals that try to take a shortcut that tramples on our Freedom. We need to rediscover the path to Freedom our Founding Fathers gave their lives for. The most powerful thing the USA could do to influence the world is to make this country the shining light for the world to see. We have to return to the Constitution and take power away from those businesses and people that are trying to make our Constitution powerless. Remember following the Constitution is what keeps you and I safe.

It is easy to ignore someone that says do as I say and you will succeed but it is very hard to ignore a country that does what it says and is succeeding. Wake up America!

Dear Pat
I voted for you too ! Another excellent article
which cuts through the spin and hype. It is time for america to seal its border and bring home the troops in Japan, Europe , and Korea.
We need to rebuild our country and stop meddling in other parts of the wolrd where we do not have a direct interest. We need to cut all foreign aid, especially to Israel. Free trade is good but only with coubntries that reciprocate such as Germany . Good riddance to Bush, the most destructive , illiterate, usefull idiot that occupied the oval office during my lifetime. Only Johnson rivaled Bush for the most damage done while in office. Both were stupid and both were aggresive. Both showed no courage when courage was demanded . Johnson allowed the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty to go unpunished and Bush was just a usefull idiot for the criminal neocons like Pearle , Frum , and Wolfowitz.

jerebaub
You said, "Which means a Taliban that repudiates Al Qaida.

I think Taliban would agree to that, in exchange for control of Afghanistan and removal of foreign troops".

What can you POSSIBLY point to to hang your hat on the belief that the Taliban would repudiate Al Qaeda, and deny it a sanctuary in Afghanistan again, if it reassumes power in Afghanistan?

One big reason the Taliban welcomed Al Qaeda was because of the money that Bin Laden brought to that impoverished government. A new Taliban regime figures to be just as impoverished, so the same dynamic would still be in play.

Also, the Taliban and Al Qaeda have a major shared goal: imposition of strict Islamic rule. So in this regard, why should the Taliban care if Al Qaeda's personnel are non-Afghan if they both are striving to that same end?

And although Pat Buchanan has written about how Iran disliked the Taliban, the plain and simple fact is, the Taliban fostered terrorism efforts directed at the U.S., not its neighbors. I don't believe the Taliban, if it reimposes itself upon Afghanistan, will actively try to foment major tensions with Iran, Russia, and China - because it knows very well that these governments, unlike our own, will ruthlessly deal with such activities. The U.S., on the other hand: that's a different animal altogether. Especially now that we have a president who spent some of his upbringing in a Muslim nation and who has openly said that if the mood against Muslims in this country turns ugly, he will side with the Muslims. Would the Taliban believe that such a man would initiate a war against a target in the Muslim world even if a major terrorist WMD attack fostered by Al Qaeda from the Muslim world were perpetrated on American soil? I wouldn't blame them one bit for being skeptical of such an action - and therefore giving Al Qaeda the freedom to try it again.

SYMBOLISM and CHURCHILL
The media "buzz" was that Obama had the Churchill Bust removed--sent back to England--from his office. The press has always loved sensationalism. It can be really vulgar.

What "really happened" is that some of the Transition is still taking place. Items need to be returned. In reality, the sculpture was just another item.

But Providence, smarter than all of us, has use for just about everything, no, everything.

Winston Churchill, hero to Harry Jaffa and like-minded hawks and liberalism lovers, was and remains a symbol of a particular approach to a particular way of life.

But the sober glow is off of Churchill now just like it is off of--get this--Lincoln.

Why? Times have changed.

Having said that, we still need to be about the serious business of protecting our borders from attacks and our folks from internal corruption.

(I still admire Lincoln; I don't know enough facts about Churchill to know if he really merits his excellent reputation. I do know that reputations rise and fall--with..."the times")

Buchanan scribbled
"But if victory over the Taliban has been ruled out by the United States, have the Taliban ruled out a victory over the American Empire to rival the one their fathers won over the Soviet Empire?"

Factually incorrect, as it was the Northern Alliance (the FOES of the Pakistan-birthed cent-percent-Pushtun Taliban) who actually defeated the Soviets; the Taliban were Johnny-come-latelies who tookover (with Pakistan's not-even-secret help--as the reason Pakistan created Taliban was as "extra regiments" for use against India; having these in power meant Afghanistan as attached strategic-depth colony) from the depleted victors.

A correction for Standshisground @ 08:26, you wrote "the Taliban fostered terrorism efforts directed at the U.S., not its neighbours". Last I checked, India can also be considered a neighbour (it's a lot closer geographically to Afghanistan than Russia, even if we EXCLUDE the Northern Areas, territory administered by Pakistan and claimed by India) and Taliban definitely fostered anti-India terror (1999 hijacking of IC-814 to Qandahar ring a bell?).

standshisground
A few of points.

1. It is not our business what kind of government Afghanistan has..as long as its government does not export radicalism that threatens our nation.

2. The Taliban came to power in the turmoil surrounding the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and, along with other mujahideen warriors fighting the Soviets, were financed by U.S. money that was largely dispensed thru the Pakistanis. In fact, the Taliban would not exist were it not for support from Pakistan. It is a creation of Pakistan.

3. Taliban are mostly native Pashtuns, as is 44% Afghanistan, so any arrangement on governance in Afghanistan will have to take into both Pakistan and the Taliban.

4. If Sec. of Defense Robert Gates himself concedes there is no military solution to Afghanistan, what is the alternative?

A political solution.

If we are going to get involved there at all, we should work to bring about a rift between foreign Arab fighters of Al Qaida, and indigenous non-Arab Pashtun tribesmen in Afghanistan(including many Taliban).

It may cost us a few hundred million dollars, maybe even half a billion, to bribe or coax them away from Al Qaida, but we spend far more than that on military operations alone there in the course of a year.

Your point about Taliban-controlled Afghanistan fearing the wrath of a Shia Iran, or Russia and China, were it to export radicalism, suggests its activities in that regard, even if it were so disposed, would be curtailed and bottled up.

svpallava
Thanks for correcting my ignorance. In fact, the hijacking you mention didn't ring a bell to me at all; the only thing I remember about the Taliban prior to the 9/11 attack was its destruction of those two giant Buddhas carved on the cliff wall along the Silk Road.

Of course, regarding the anti-India terrorism you mentioned the Taliban engaged in prior to its ouster from power, wouldn't you agree that there is at least some basis to argue that the Taliban was acting in effect as a proxy of the Pakistani government, which was helping to prop it up?

In fact, in raising that issue, that's ANOTHER reason I disagree with Jerebaub that the Taliban would cease to allow Al Qaeda sanctuary in Afghanistan again if it were to return to power there; the Pakistani government, or at least elements of it, would go right back to playing the same game of propping up a government openly hostile to the United States. If Pakistan is willing to in effect cede a part of its northwest frontier to Al Qaeda in the accord it made with the leaders in Waziristan a couple of years ago and now more recently regarding the Swat valley, Al Qaeda will STILL have a sanctuary in that part of the world - and I expect that they would be all the more burning in desire to inflict even GREATER harm on the U.S. than they did on 9/11. And now with U.S. forces gone and the Taliban back in power and probably just as eager as Al Qaeda to take revenge on the U.S., who would be around to discourage them from trying again?

And again, with a president raised for a time in the Muslim world and openly sympathetic to Muslims, can you see him initiating a major military effort against some target in the Muslim world even in the wake of a devastating attack by Islamic terrorists on American soil - and even if clear responsibility for the attack could be established? I have severe doubts that he'd have the cojones for it - which is one major reason I voted for McCain last year.

Jack David Post
Winston Spencer Churchill was and is one of the greatest men to grace this planet. Mistakes he made but leadership he provided in the blackest days of England's long history. If you do not know the man then go and learn for if we had such a leader we would be well served. As for Russia, it's military is a joke. They have economic power via their natural resouces but it does not translate into military power and will not base on the state of the world economy. Fear the enemy within and pray we find our Churchill.

p.s. standshisground
If we can bribe or coax Iraqi Arab tribesmen in Anbar to turn against a foreign Al Qaida, why would it not be possible to bribe or coax Afghan Pashtuns, including even many Taliban, to turn against foreign Al Qaida warriors in Afghanistan?

It may not work, but given that there is no military solution(at least not one we are prepared to make), what is the alternative?

crescen7
What would you have us do?

anderson659
"Poorly done.

Interesting reading if you like selective facts. This is on par with the authors WW2 history.

Some truth, some fiction, some personal opinion. All thrown together to form a personal conclusion."

Instead of simply throwing this out here, why don't you give some examples?

As for "personal conclusions" it is an opinion piece based on facts.

jerabaub
This is possible and should be looked into as an option. Back in 2001 bribes were employed that caused defections.

The British used to do this all the time as they did in 1919.

jerebaub
You said, "1. It is not our business what kind of government Afghanistan has..as long as its government does not export radicalism that threatens our nation."

I actually have no problem with that. The big issue is the latter part of that statement. I see no reason to believe the Taliban will abstain from actively engaging in, or at least allowing from its soil, activities that will directly threaten the U.S. If the Taliban reassumes power in Afghanistan, I see every reason to believe that both it and Al Qaeda will be eager to wreak revenge on the U.S. - and Pakistan will be back in the business of abetting it in that, as it has been even since 9/11.

And it's little consolation to me if the Taliban constrains its impulse to radical activities that would undermine Iran, Russia, and China if it merely frees it to focus its efforts - directly or through a proxy like Al Qaeda - on America. As I implied before, the Taliban didn't engage itself in activities against Iran, Russia, and China because it knows very well that those governments don't have the sensitivities about killing civilians that OUR government does.

And I don't believe a bribe would work. Haven't we have enough bad experience in the last 50 years in trying to bribe foreign governments to ostensibly refrain from doing certain things we'd like them not to do - like growing certain kinds of crops, like poppies? They simply take our money - and then do the activity we're paid them not to do anyway.


jerebaub
You asked me what I see as a solution to the problem of a re-emergent Taliban. Simple: Pakistan.

I know you're going to think I'm an absolute wing-nut for what I'm about to say, but this is how I feel on the matter.

If I were made president tomorrow and were going to withdraw our forces from Afghanistan even if it meant the Taliban coming back to power, I would openly inform the Pakistani government that if it abets the Taliban and by extension the Al Qaeda people that take sanctuary there and in parts of Pakistan, I will hold the Pakistan government directly responsible for any terrorist attacks on American soil during my administration that come out of that part of the world - and that there WILL be an American military response to it that will pay no heed whatever to the sovereignty of Pakistani territory. And if it means openly striking targets in Waziristan, even with massive civilian casualties, I would tell the Pakistani government that I will do it in a heartbeat, and that the Pakistani government at that point has one of two choices: it can stand aside and leave Waziristan to its fate, or it can fight for Waziristan - which I will interpret as a tacit admission that any terrorist plot hatched in Waziristan had the full knowledge and support of the government in Islamabad, in which case it means war with ALL of Pakistan, not just Waziristan.

Yeah, yeah, I know what you're going to say in response: such an action would prompt a swift overthrow of the Pakistani government by Islamists, and then we'd have a nuclear-armed extreme radical Islamic government. But like many conservatives on this board, I'm not convinced that such a development isn't likely to happen eventually ANYWAY. And my feeling is, if Pakistan wants to try to set the world on nuclear fire: well, the world will deal with it and put that boil on the world's derriere out of the world's misery once and for all.

Response to Standshisground 09:55 query
"Of course, regarding the anti-India terrorism you mentioned the Taliban engaged in prior to its ouster from power, wouldn't you agree that there is at least some basis to argue that the Taliban was acting in effect as a proxy of the Pakistani government, which was helping to prop it up?"

Some basis? More like cent-precent acting as proxy-colonial government for Pakistan.

Historical "reasoning" behind Pakistan's propping of anti-US government is that in 1971, they vainly looked for help from Nixon in the war that their drunken adulterous dictator was foolish enough to start with India (while Nixon DID send TF-74 to Bay Of Bengal, its arrival in that area was too late to even influence the inevitable course--but it caused a decade-plus-long setback to Indo-US diplomacy), and in having Army Chiefs (always powerful, either "behind throne" like Tikka Khan or Aslam Beg if not outright dictator such as Ayub, Yahya or Zia) with no educational ties to West after 1988 (Zia had been educated in RIMCOL, Dehra Dun graduating in 1945 somewhat prior to VJ day).

We have enough problems
We have enough problems on our own door step with Mexico and Latin America, let alone being the world's police force. Many of Pat's points are concise and focus on America's inability to sustain "guns and butter" in the current economic turmoil that we find ourselves and much of the World in.

Bring the troops home from Afghanistan
One of our biggest problems is that we tend to think that all people and all countries are just like us. Well, they're not. To call Afghanistan a country governed by a central authority is just plain myth. Like post-Saddam Iraq, it is a stew of competing tribes and factions, the difference being that in Afghanistan they are spread across a topography which makes it virtually ungovernable by a central authority. There never has been an entity there worthy of being called a country and likely there never will be. The only thing which even remotely unites Afghans is an intense dislike of outsiders, as the British and Russians learned the hard way. To think that we are any different from them is hubris at best and stupidity at worst.
It's time to apply the lessons of history and bring our troops home.

$$$$$$$$$$$ ?????????????
I do not dispute that in certain situations war is the only honorable resort. I am speaking here now about honor or courage or patriotism, but about MONEY. Sometimes reality comes down to just that, money.

We are in the worst financial crisis of our lifetimes. Traditionally, war is financed by raising taxes. Do you see the American people right now as able to pay a tax increase for war? George W Bush chose to pay for war by borrowing the money. Do you see the American people right now as willing to increase our already staggering deficit to pay for more war? And things money-wise aren't looking so hot right now in the Asian countries that have been lending us money---how long do you think China and Japan will remain willing to finance our wars?

War is very, very, very, very expensive. Do you see us as able to afford more war?

Standshisground
We agree it is not our business what type of government Afghanistan has, as long as it does not threaten us.

The Taliban enjoys whatever popularity it has among the Afghan people because it does provide a crude Islamic system of justice, and it does provide basic protection...something the corrupt, ineffective U.S. backed Karzai government cannot do.

Pakistan is the problem.

And I don't believe conditions there bode well for stability in the area.

I think a nuclear war is more likely than not, if Islamists seize power in Pakistan.

India won't stand for it.


Good post Standshisground @ 10:28
Given the way that Zardari handed over three districts of NWFP to Taliban, it's almost inevitable that he'll be overthrown either by Islamists and/or his ACOS Kayani (link below to article written only fivemonths ago on latter scenario).

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?205368

Correcting jerabaub's 11:27
"The Taliban enjoys whatever popularity it has among the Afghan people because it does provide a crude Islamic system of justice, and it does provide basic protection...something the corrupt, ineffective U.S. backed Karzai government cannot do."

Should read, "The Taliban enjoys whatever popularity it has among the Pashtun (Taliban is cent-percent Pashtun and is not at all loved by non-Pashtuns, who in total form majority in Afghanistan--and who would face Darfur-like repression in event of Taliban retakeover of Kabul) people because it does provide a crude Islamic/Pashtunwali (latter dominant in case of discrepancy) system of justice, and it does provide basic protection...something the corrupt, ineffective U.S. backed Karzai government cannot do."

(can't put hilights/bolds/italics, so...)

As far as India having an issue with Islamist takeover...more likely scenario is military takeover by Kayani (tolerable for India, as it can deal with that) as Islamists in Pakistan will inevitably breakdown to sectarian and ethnic rivalries.

at what cost Iraq, etc. ?!?!

Presidente Jorge went ballistic back when an aide projected an all-in cost of $200 billion for Iraq-- we passed that euphemistic estimate LONG AGO! We are now slouching toward an all-in cost of $3 TRILLION!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_c ontributors/article3419840.ece

Doesn't it make you wonder how the cost could be so egregious and colossal?!

Ironically, the profligate spending also helped set the table for the ObaMessiah to spend to redefine America, just as the neoCON "compassionate conservatives" did with Rx Care for Seniors and other government-growing initiatives that make real conservatives cringe.

The Iraq war largesse (arguably a TOTAL waste) is a cool $40,000 per American household of 4... or $960,000 per Israeli household-- the war was REALLY engendered by the neoCONS then pulling Jorge's strings to take out Saddam and Iraq (which had NOTHING to do with 9/11) and establish permanent AMERICAN bases there to protect Israel, as spelled out CLEARLY way back in 1996 by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC):

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.h tml
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2007-summer/neoc onservative-foreign-policy.asp
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/09/02/john-mearsheimer-a nd-stephen-walt-pro-israel-lobby-influence-over-us-foreign- policy-on-the-recent-israel-lebanon-war/
http://tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html

pb
Correct. George Bush and his 'Reign of Error' has put this nation in grave danger!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/milit ary_risk

THE BEGINNING OF THE END


.....Was when Truman brought us into the United Nations and kept us from winning the Korean War by removing MacArthur from command ...

....."(O)nce war is forced upon us," said MacArthur, "there is no other alternative than to apply every available means to bring it to a swift end. War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision.

"In war, there is no substitute for victory."

.....No truer words were ever spoken ...

.....GW's big mistake was turning an unwise invasion into a nation building exercise ...he should have followed MacArthurs advice ...if Truman had we would not be in Korea today and China would not be a Communist enemy and Vietnam never would have happened ...

.....Now we have a dangerous world and OBAMBI as our CIC ...HELP! ...this is either a bad dream or an SNL skit .....COLOSSUS

.....

.....

...

jerebaub
It looks like you and I are fundamentally in agreement with the REAL problem in that part of the world: Pakistan.

As odious as the Taliban regime was prior to 9/11, if it wasn't for 9/11, American troops would not be in Afghanistan right now, period. Nor would I - and I'm sure most conservatives who come to this board feel the same way on this - have supported such an incursion into that country absent 9/11, either.

But as you've (and svpallava) indicated and as I agree with, the Taliban is really at heart a creation of, and a puppet of, Pakistan. And as we made the Taliban pay the price for the actions of its proxy Al Qaeda, so in the future do I believe we should make Pakistan pay the price for the actions of its proxy the Taliban, if the Taliban either directly or through granting sanctuary to entities like Al Qaeda wants to continue war with the United States.

I agree with you that the conditions in the area don't bode well for its stability.

I'd also agree with you that if Islamists seize power in Pakistan, a nuclear war involving Pakistan is more likely than not. I don't believe Pakistan would immediately launch its nukes against India once a radical Islamist government was in place in Islamabad. The way I see Pakistan ushering in nuclear war is if that Islamist government precipitated a war with India over Kashmir or by fostering more Mumbai-style terrorist attacks in India itself and the armies of India and Pakistan engaged in a conventional war in which India, as has been the history between the two nations since 1947, would quickly gain the upper hand and embarass Pakistan's military - and the Pakistani government would then feel that to save national honor it would have no other choice than to escalate a conventional war into a nuclear one. Or if Pakistan's Islamist government turned over a few of its nukes to groups like Al Qaeda for use in other parts of the world - such as the United States.



To the LIberal Morons
who think that the Iraq war is costing 3 Trillion ... NOT even close, it's been about 100 BILLION a year for seven years, and that will rapidly DECREASE now that the war is won ... that's less than Obama has blown in ONE F'ING MONTH you complete fools! And, we have one less fanatical hellhole in the world to deal with! A bargain! I figure if we could have taken out one more hellhole, N Korea or Iran, then maybe, just maybe, the fanatics would give pause before trying to wreak their insane plans of conquest! Pat B. is a complete, Bush-hating moron who hasn't got anything right since ... ... ?

jerebaub
A postscript to my last post which the 2,000-character limit enjoined me from adding:

As svpallava reminded us a few months ago, Pakistan's Pervez Musharref, in the days before he was Pakistan's president and was just army chief-of-staff, was advocating the use of Pakistan's nukes against India over some dispute between the two nations (I don't remember what it was, but I'm sure svpallava can fill in the details here). I suspect there are still too many with Musharref's mindset left in Pakistan's military forces and the ISI.

Losing Afghanistan
Are Pat and liberals complete idiots ... what "Losing"? Afghanistan has FAR less violence than Iraq had with a far smaller deployment of American forces! The Afghan people are still sick of the fanatical excesses of the Taliban. The only way that it can be "lost" is for a pre-emptive surrender ... which is probably Obama's plan ... all this talk of it being "lost" is to prepare the way for our surrender! Give in to evil and it will soon be on your doorstep ... MORONS!

True Conservatron
WHat sources support your estiamte of 700 billlion? I have seen nothing that estiamtes less than a trillion dollars and several that go higher. Oracle cited one. Here's another:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0 3/07/AR2008030702846.html.

WHat sources support your contention?

Leftist Media
Wondering when they will start asking Obama for his Afghan "exit strategy".

Svpallava; Standhisground's 11:56
Svpallava, 44% of Afghans are Pashtuns.

"It is what it is"...as some retard talkshow host is so fond of saying.

44% may not be a majority, but it clearly is the largest plurality, by far, and any government in Afghanistan will have to reckon with the Pashtuns.

Weren't Bush, et al, the bunch who were paying off various warlords in order to seal the border at Tora Bora and prevent Bin Laden's escape?

Presumably Bush admin. wouldn't be paying off its sworn enemy the Taliban to accomplish this... but rather its "allies", including the Northern Alliance.

Uhhh, reality check time.

It didn't go as planned.

Didn't exactly get much "bang for our buck" there, did we?

Standshisground, nicely thought out.

Except why would a radicalized Pakistan on the verge of losing a conventional war against India give away what nukes it has to Al Qaida, when it presumably would want them to use against India?

Pakistan would have its hands full with India, and would not be inclined to initiate hostilities with the United States(giving nukes to Al Qaida).

Still, your analysis is impressive, and far beyond the wingnut level to which I am accustomed.

I mean that as a compliment.

Have a cigar.


Pat you are still on the Bash Bush
Bandwagon Congratulations! The poison pen is mightier than the sword.
Your stance is similar to the Main Stream Media who lauded BO and villified Bush. Seems to me that you have joined the MSM. I really thought that was beneath you, but apparently NOT!

jerebaub
Actually, I didn't mean to imply that an Islamist government in power in Islamabad would, in the midst of a conventional war with India which it was losing, hand off a few of its nukes to Al Qaeda at that time for use against the U.S. or another target. The two scenarios I had presented under which I could see Pakistan initiating a nuclear war were actually totally separate from one another.

And in point of fact, I think the latter of the two - a radical Islamic government in Pakistan making available a few of its nukes to a group like Al Qaeda - is the least likely of the two. Although actually I should rephrase that: while the OFFICIAL HEAD OF STATE of such a government may not give such a go-ahead himself, I could easily rogue elements of such a government, which the current non-Islamist government in Islamabad is ALREADY beset with, making such an arrangement with a group like Al Qaeda surreptitiously. Why would these elements, as you posited earlier, risk initiating hostilities with the U.S. which could result in the utter annihilation of Pakistan? Well, there COULD be apocalyptic elements within the government. There's also the issue of "plausible deniability"; to hand over nukes to terrorists minimizes the Islamist government's own fingerprints on the use of such weapons, unless the terrorists blunder big-time. Lastly, there is also the issue I raised before: with the present occupier of the Oval Office a man who spent some of his formative years in the Islamic world and who has openly proclaimed his sympathy to Muslims even if their fellow citizens in America turn against them, such a government may believe that Obama would not have the cojones to actually make nuclear war upon a part of the Islamic world. A belief, if so, I believe is ANYTHING but ill-founded.

But thank you for your compliments, sir. And I hope you noticed that I've treated you respectfully in this exchange as well.

Deacon
"The EU is larger than the USA and are fully capable of defending themselves."

Exactly!

n fact, we should sell South Korea the military hardware necessary to repel North Korea.

Exactly! Instead of paying for their own defense, they are plowing money into hi-tech and making the next generation of electronics.

Kyla
"Pat you are still on the Bash Bush
Bandwagon Congratulations! The poison pen is mightie...blah, blah, blah."

Have you got a point here with this drivel, other than you don't like Pat?

Standshisground
And I respect you and your comments as well.

You make a valid case on the issue of apocalyptic elements within a radicalized Islamist government in Pakistan throwing caution to the winds and wanting a worldwide inferno.

But historically aren't Shia radicals much more apocalyptic than Sunnis?

For many decades we have managed to exist in a world with Sunni regimes...and since 1979 we have managed to exist in a world where a radicalized Shia theocracy took hold(I mean Iran..not the recent government in Iraq which still is sorting itself out).

Yes, Ahmadinejad makes apocalyptic remarks, but the hardliner Islamist theocrats there call the shots, not Mahmaud.

If they got the bomb, would they still be cautious?

I think they would.

It was not they who started the Iran/Iraq war.

It was Saddam.

It was not they who attacked us on 9/11.

It has been three decades since Islamist radicals seized power in a nation, and we still have no inferno.

No one knows the future.

But moderates are running against Ahmadinejad.

I am not naive about Islam. I know its history.

But I also know that in the case of Iran, there is reason for hope. Its youth are much more pro-western than the ageing ruling Mullahs.

My worry is Pakistan.

Yes, it is mostly Sunni, but its people, especially its youth, are far more radicalized and less educated(exposed to Western influences)than in Iran.

On the wingnut comment, I used to be an avid Bush 43 supporter.

I voted for him.

So if I toss around the term, it is because I once was one.

I cannot express in words just how totally I reject G.W. Bush and his policies now.

I either evolved...or some strange presence has invaded my being.




jerebaub
I pretty much agree with you on Iran. I don't share the beliefs of people like Bill O'Reilly and some columnists we see on this site who seem to assume that if Iran gets atomic weapons, that it will promptly use them to set the world - or even Israel - on fire. I tend to believe that the mullahs running Iran are not as apocalyptic as their front man Ahmadinejab and that they like having power JUST ENOUGH that they're unlikely to engage in action that could leave them as little crispy critters and end their hold on power. And as you said, correctly, the youth of Iran are far more pro-Western than its government. And as you said and as Pat Buchanan often reminds us, excluding the embassy seizure in 1979, Iran doesn't have a history of trying to openly trigger wars with other nations.

I also don't believe that the moment Iran got the bomb, it would promptly use it, directly or with proxies, against Israel. The mullahs know very well that Israel would respond by incinerating as much of the Muslim world as its own supply of nuclear weapons would allow. They also know that the moment Israel THOUGHT Iran had the bomb, Israel's own nuclear forces would instantly be put on a hair trigger - and therefore any saber-rattling on Iran's part afterward would only risk triggering a pre-emptive Israeli nuclear strike.

I tend to agree that Pakistan right now is a more likely trigger point than Iran for the first use of nuclear weapons since Nagasaki. svpallava has provided much useful background over the months on the history of modern Pakistan and the mindset of those in high authority in Pakistan.

Until Al Qaeda came along, I used to believe that the Sunnis were the peaceful Muslims and the Shia were the crazy and warlike ones. But the most hostile to the West elements of the Islamic world now seem to be coming out of the Sunni world, Al Qaeda being Exhibit A.

Since you didn't call me a wing-nut, I actually didn't take offense at your mention of the term.

Another correction for jerabaub
"For many decades we have managed to exist in a world with Sunni regimes...and since 1979 we have managed to exist in a world where a radicalized Shia theocracy took hold(I mean Iran..not the recent government in Iraq which still is sorting itself out)."

Actually, Pakistan has been ruled almost as much by Shias (at least nominally) as Sunnis, despite of its Sunni majority:
(*) Iskander Mirza, 1956-1958
(*) Ayub Khan, 1958-1969
(*) Yahya Khan, 1969-1971
(*) Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, 1971-1977
(*) Benazir Bhutto, 1988-1990 and 1993-1996
(*) Gilani/Zardari, 2008-current

27 years, including 21-year continuous stretch (no Sunni governments had that long a stretch there).

jerebaub
One more thing I meant to add to my last post:

I also don't automatically assume that even if the mullahs of Iran, once in possession of nuclear weapons, ordered their use either directly or through the use of terrorist proxies, that the Iranian military officers who would have to carry out the orders of the mullahs to deliver it wherever they ordered would obey those orders. Even IF - a big if - I assumed just for the sake of argument the mullahs in Iran are as apocalyptic as Ahmadinejab, that doesn't mean the commanders of Iran's military are. If you're a high-ranking military officer in that military ordered to deliver a nuclear weapon for use and believed that to obey that order would sacrifice you, your family, everything you've worked your whole life to build, and everything that 100 generations of Persians have worked THEIR lives to build, would you obey it? I think there's a very real chance that rather than go along with such an order, the Iranian military would overthrow their government rather than risk seeing their nation obliterated - and therefore eliminate themselves the threat these mullahs may pose to the world.

But given what svpallava told us some time ago about Pervez Musharref's desire to use nuclear weapons against India before he became Pakistan's head of state, I'm not as confident that the highest-ranking echelons of Pakistan's military would blanch at the use of nuclear weapons - especially against India.

Standshisground @ 14:25 wrote
"Until Al Qaeda came along, I used to believe that the Sunnis were the peaceful Muslims and the Shia were the crazy and warlike ones. But the most hostile to the West elements of the Islamic world now seem to be coming out of the Sunni world, Al Qaeda being Exhibit A."

A perusal of Subcontinental (till 1947, one could just lump it as Indian) history would show that Sunnis historically have been no less radical.
(*) from 1345-1540, there was Bahmani Kingdom in central Deccan--as Muslims go, rulers were mostly moderate (with some anti-Hindu crackpots) Shias
(*) 1540-1660 between one and five (out of total five) Bahmani-kingdom replacement sultanates (Bijapur, Golconda, Ahmednagar, Bidar, Berar; last to fall was Bijapur) rulers as with Bahmani Kingdom
(*) 1206-1526 Delhi Sultanates in North India which had several anti-Hindu crackpots (usually the point of dynasty change), all Sunnis
(*) Mughal Empire, specifically 1658-1707 under Aurangzeb who tried to forcibly convert Hindus, Sikhs, Shias and Sufis to Sunni Islam--with disastrous results (he managed to annoy the Sunni Pashtuns as well as Shias, Hindus and Sikhs all at once--though their rebellions were not collusive, the result was that his successors could not hold the empire at all leading to its effective collapse by 1739)

For Standshisground, jerabaub
The major problem with Pakistan was that it was founded on a fallacious foundation of monolithic Islam (many Banglas now claim that they were "cheated into" this nation, as only Muslim League toadys of Jinnah were allowed to vote on the issue of joining Pakistan) termed "2-nation theory"; when many Muslims who COULD choose chose to stay put, they didn't even revamp it (it's still taught in Pakistani schools) but put themselves on a policy basis of perpetual anti-India (rather than, as suggested by leaders such as Mujib and Bhashani, pro-Pakistan). The inevitable result of a policy based on fallacy and hatred--well, a nation based that way will collapse, as Pakistan is in (long overdue, started prior to 1971) process.

the cost of the mistake in Iraq
Below are several sources which would disagree markedly with any euphemistic perception of the all-in costs of the war of choice in Iraq.

A strange reality about it--> we were supposed to get even with those bad Islamics responsible for 9/11, but Saddam was a secular Islamic and OPPONENT of Osama. OOPS!

No wonder Presidente Jorge Bush (the embracer of ILLEGAL aliens) says now that his greatest regret is that he did not have better intel about Iraq.

More aptly put, it was not really the intel about Iraq that was so inimical, but the poison poured in his ear by the neoCON advisors then pulling his strings--> Wolfy, Perle, Abrams, Feith and Libby. They drove us to take out Iraq for Israel's benefit (to get permanent bases there) as called for in 1996 by their PNAC stratagem.

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.h tml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0 3/07/AR2008030702846_pf.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/16/opinion/op-bilmes16

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_c ontributors/article3419840.ece

baseballdoc
Harry Truman was a fine man and, in my opinion, a great president.

He had no choice but to relieve General of the Army McArthur once the general disregarded his orders. The military MUST be subordinate to the legal, elected government of the United States, otherwise, we'd have a banama republic.

President Truman's mistake was to have listened to the whimpy sisters and striped-trousered fools in his administration. These folks were the ones who advised him against fighting the war as MacArthur wanted.

There was a lot of jealousy against MacArthur in the military staff advising Truman too. Some of these put their dislike of MacArthur ahead of what they knew to have been their duty.

I have no firm idea what would have happened had MacArthur been permitted to fight the Korean War his way. He'd have one hell of a war for a few months, until we dropped the bomb. Afterwards, I suspect repeat suspect the Cold War would have been much less of a burden than it was and we'd have never heard of Vietnam and other problem areas.


TrueConservative
Not $100 billion a year, try $140 billion a year.

How much will it cost to replace all the military equipment damaged, run down and lost?

How much additional cost for the VA?

Please don't low-ball, it has to be paid for.

svpallava
I appreciate your input on this thread, and the historical information you've supplied in this vein on other threads in the recent past, especially in the wake of the Mumbai terrorist attack last Thanksgiving: you are obviously much more knowledgeable on the history of Islam and the Islamic world than I, and indeed the vast majority of the posters on this site.

Since I was not born when the Pakistan-India partition happened, its history was not something I admit to exactly chomping at the bit to learn - although I will say that when I was in college, I associated with Indian and Pakistani Muslims, and some of those Indian Muslims believed that the partition of the Indian subcontinent into these two entities benefitted NEITHER country.

I never claimed that my belief, until Al Qaeda showed its face, that the Sunnis were the more peaceful faction of Islam while the Shia were the more warlike was necessarily an ACCURATE understanding; this was simply what I believed personally, whether correctly or not. My belief was probably based on the 1979 Iranian embassy seizure, since I knew that Iran was a mostly Shiite country.

If Pakistan is indeed in the process of imploding internally - well, I wouldn't lament it, unless that implosion helps put nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists or causes its leadership to undertake a reckless or desperate act of aggression to try to build national unity, as despotic regimes with deep internal troubles have done throughout history.

FLIGHTS 1549, 3407 AND 9/11
Five days before Obama took office, when Bush delivered his wise and moving farewell address, flight 1549 safely crashed into the Hudson with no injuries to passenger and crew. Aboard the plane was John Howell, brother of a 9/11 victim (see below: George Bush, the Hudson River Miracle and his 9/11 Presidency).

28 days later, in the Age of the 44th President, flight 1304 crashes to its doom in upstate New York killing its crew and 44 passengers. Aboard the ill starred flight was Beverly Eckart who joined her husband Sean in heaven, a 9/11 victim. Mrs. Eckart, great American, co-chairperson of the Voices of 9/11, was traveling to a high school ceremony at Clearance, where the plane went down, to celebrate her husband's 58th birthday-the two first met at this school. A sad, touching story, brings tears to my eyes.

In the space of 28 days we're given signs of the age that passed and the tragic one that is upon us. God help us all, Conservative, Liberal, Republican and Democrat.

Click ApolloSpeaks and read: George Bush, the Hudson River Miracle and his 9/11 Presidency.


FLIGHTS 1549, 3407 AND 9/11
Five days before Obama took office, when Bush delivered his wise and moving farewell address, flight 1549 safely crashed into the Hudson with no injuries to passenger and crew. Aboard the plane was John Howell, brother of a 9/11 victim.

28 days later, in the Age of the 44th President, flight 1304 crashes to its doom in upstate New York killing its crew and 44 passengers. Aboard the ill starred flight was Beverly Eckart who joined her husband Sean in heaven, a 9/11 victim. Mrs. Eckart, great American, co-chairperson of the Voices of 9/11, was traveling to a high school ceremony at Clearance, where the plane went down, to celebrate her husband's 58th birthday-the two first met at this school. A sad, touching story, brings tears to my eyes.

In the space of 28 days we're given signs of the age that passed and the tragic one that is upon us. God help us all, Conservative, Liberal, Republican and Democrat.

Click ApolloSpeaks and read: George Bush, the Hudson River Miracle and his 9/11 Presidency.




Appolo Speaks
"Click ApolloSpeaks and read: George Bush, the Hudson River Miracle and his 9/11 Presidency."

Think about this. Ronald Reagan sent US Marines to Beirut, Lebanon in 1982. On October 23, 1983, a truck driven by a terrorist and laden with explosives breezed through the gates at the perimeter and exploded, resulting in 241 American marines being killed.

The Beirut barracks bombing happened because the US Marine commander and the Commander-in-Chief (Reagan) forbid the sentries from having bullets in their rifles. These rules of engagement resulted in the attack being successful and the slaughter of 241 Americans.

Ronald Reagan's response was to flee Beirut a few months later and file a Civil 'Wrongful Death' suit against Iran.



ORACLE: SADDAM-AL QAIDA CONNECTION
oracle1 writes

the cost of the mistake in Iraq
Below are several sources which would disagree markedly with any euphemistic perception of the all-in costs of the war of choice in Iraq.

A strange reality about it--> we were supposed to get even with those bad Islamics responsible for 9/11, but Saddam was a secular Islamic and OPPONENT of Osama. OOPS!

ApolloSpeaks:

OOPS, is right. What was known to the Clinton Administration has been confirmed by the Pentagon Harmony Documents: SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS A FUNDING SOURCE FOR AL QAIDA. These Iraqi intell docs reveal that Saddam had a long-standing relationship with al Zawahiri going back to his Moslem Brotherhood days. We have memos of Zawahiri visiting Iraq in the late 90s collecting money from Saddam This money could have been used to fund Al Qaida's operations including 9/11.

600,000 docs have been translated revealing the extent of Saddam's involvement with jihadists and his massive ongoing training, funding and arming of jihadists in Iraq. 400,000 docs have yet to be translated. The Saddam-Al Qaida connection is now proven. Operation Iraqi Freedom was a war of necessity.



ap
"the cost of the mistake in Iraq."

Can be put on the Republican party.

On February 25, 2003, General Eric Shinseki, Chief of Staff of the Army, testified in front of the Republican-controlled Congress that it would take up to 500,000 soldiers to occupy and stabilize Iraq in the event of war.

Republican party leaders George Bush, Denny Hastert (Speaker of the House), Bill Frist (Senate Majority Leader) and Don Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense) decided that, politically, it was not feasible to send that many troops to Iraq. Why, the cost, sending 500,000 troops to Iraq would imperil their precious tax cut. To the Republican party, the tax cut was more important to them than doing the job right in Iraq. They figured the tax cut would be politically feasible only by sending 150,000 troops to Iraq.

When things went bad in Iraq, they concocted the notion of 'Clinton Administration defense cuts' as the reason why insufficient troops were sent to Iraq. The Republican party LIED while American soldiers died. These odious, godless, unpatriotic Republicans lied twice.

Firstly, as we all true conservatives know, it was the Republican-controlled Congress defense cuts that cut our military to the bone in the 1990's. Secondly, it was the Republican party that cold-heartedly decided that their precious tax cut was more important than doing a competent job in Iraq.

If the Republican party lies about matters of national security, then what can they be trusted for?

Who Cares?
No one's listening to all these dire warnings of impending doom. Financial collapse? Defeat in the Middle East? Islamic encroachment in America? Narco gangs from Mexico? Socialism?

No one's listening to these prophecies. We are powerless because those in power look at us with blank stares and condescending smiles. They dismiss us simpletons. They're partying hardy on our tab.

Besides, they've all got "vacation homes" in foreign lands. They've got a place to escape when it all ends and we're finally confronted with what they've done to us.

It is up to each individual to secure their lives, stock up, improve their finances, tend to their families, get prepared. It will be every person for themselves.

Each one of us is a Noah and we will have to construct our own ark all the while we are laughed at and mocked. Those hoots and hollars will turn to shrieks of desparation soon enough. Some of that noise will come as they are shot dead trying to break into our homes.

ZAPDOODAT; RONALD REAGAN
If the Gipper had only heeded the wiser John McCain those Marines would be alive today. This was the first violent act of Islamic terror against America. The start of a new war that would heat up after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was not Reagan's destiny to fight our Moslem foes. His rendezvous was with the Evil Empire and ending the dangerous Cold War.

What's up with Pat
He seems to have a case of the A** with Bush, these days. Bush was okay, even though he went out on a sour note.

Well Shawn
Actually Pat is known for only liking hardline Irish-origin Catholics--have you seen any in the WH historically?

how to win
If we put 1 million troops in Afghanistan and/or agreed to use chemical or nuclear weapons we could "win." Otherwise, forget it. It is a large country without roads -- and his a rugged mountain topography. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, much of the Taliban and operates many of the radical Muslim schools. Saudi Arabia pays for many radical Muslim programs. North Korea has nuclear weapons. It made sense to attack Afghanistan after 9/11 because they shielded Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. Unfortunately, we went to Iraq and never got Bin Laden (at this point, it is about 5 years too late -- we look impotent). We should declare victory and support the government in Kabul and just leave. We should do everything we can to try to prevent Pakistan from having a radical Muslim leadership -- now that would really make it likely that terrorists would get nuclear weapons.

Svpallava; Standshisground
You are correct that some rulers of Pakistan have been raised in Shia tradition, but the fact still remains 77% of the Muslims in Pakistan are Sunni, not Shia.

At any rate, my comment about our existing for decades in a world consisting of Sunni regimes was not meant to apply to Pakistan necessarily.

I meant it more broadly. In fact I was thinking of Saudi Arabia when I made the comment.

It was in reference to a concern of Standshisground on apocalyptic Islam, and I had suggested apocalyptic Islam was more a problem in the Shia tradition than in the Sunni tradition.

Standshisground, there is an interesting article on the apocalyptic nature of both traditions at:

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090116/REVIEW/825793663 /1008

It seems both traditions are replete with the apocalyptic element.



Updation
Gates indicated in Krakow that a Swat-style peace deal with Taliban would be acceptable to US--which reveals 0bama's mindset is even wussier than that of Zardari.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/ap_on_re_as/eu_nato_pak istan_afghanistan;_ylt=AnlShj7imDQh4gqn55O9rW4Bxg8F

Ronald Reagan...said it...!
It always simple to figure out the solution
but not as easy to administer the solution!
There is only one way to go if you commit your troops to combat.kill all the enemies possible and don't stop until you have conquered or get
a surrender from the enemy ! You don't worry about how many troops! You over send,flood the enemy, or bomb the he** out of them with ground troops to support! Viet Nam,Korea,and now this
garbage in the mid-east! As far as Iam concerned
victory was ours to take if our gutless Pres.
would have had the palotas(spanish) in all of these combats! When a guy asks you to step out outside you go outside w/one thing in mind -
stomp a mudhole in him!!!! You don't say "now
lookie here sweetheart..I will punch you once and you punch me once and I will promise not to knock you out, in fact ,I will slap you and you can do what you want! You rip his tongue out,
bash his eyes into the outer galaxy,bite his ear off(right, Mike Tyson ),kick a field goal
football style with his palotas being the football,separate his nostrils with your elbow
at about 50 M.P.H! You getting the picture??
Elvis

The Long Retreat
This shows and the proves that Americans no longer have the stomach for war, as war should be fought.

There have been too many people who were taught that it is better to appease the bad guy, because he just might get mad and do something that might cause you a little pain. We have become a nation of sissies and cry babies, who can not stand up for themselves, the term that I believe I'm looking for is passafuss (sorry for the miss spelling).

I'm hoping that there is someone who would have the gonads to take the lead and get us back to where we were respected and yes feared if they pissed us off. But this would have to take a COMPLETE change in Washington, (namely congress)to get those defeatnsih out of the way.

I forgot one more from the Gipper!
Reagan also said when asked his strategy
about the cold war! He said" We win, they
lose!" I add..any war!

Amen
Elvis

Musicman
I agree with you, partly. . .

We are lucky that we have enough young men and women with cajones to man our armed forces at the present time.

Some of these folks will eventually enter the political realm -- a few (very few) have already been elected. More and more will be elected in the future. Only then do I have hope that the country will start to kick a$$ and take names.

I also suspect that these folks, who have known war first handed, will go to war only when needed -- and let the rest of the world kill each other if they wish.

It is time for "Fortress America, i.e., maintain a strong defense/offense capability and stay home unless we are attacked physically or economically.

Disgust
The US has not the fortitude now the might to wage war as it should be waged. We have not since WWII and would not have had then if not for the Depression and FDR allowing the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor.
However this time is different. This time we are facing a more diverse enemy and WE are the target along with Israel. Things are going to hell in a basket and all eyes are blind and ears are snuffed.
You, Mr. Buchanan, are one of those who really think he knows the truth however are missing the point.
You cannot solve a deep problem such as faces the western world with surface salve.
This nation is to be no more for freedom. This, the last bastion of freedom is slipping into the morass and none is brave enough to do what is needed to save it.
We pretend to fight terrorism in far countries when the same terrorists have training bases here in the US and nothing is being done about it.
Not Politically correct. Yep, So goes the nation down that slippery slimy slope.

Hope and Change...
... Hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change, hope and change...

Lay down with Likkudniks? - wake up brok
The neocon takeover of my part led to this. Until and unless the GOP owns up to the treasonous presence of Israeli First American Jews dictating policy... then victory will elude us in the foreseeable future.

Israel is the problem and the solution. We in the GOP should be Americans FIRST - not Jews first.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.