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Friday, December 19, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama's War
by Pat Buchanan
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Just two months after the twin towers fell, the armies of the Northern Alliance marched into Kabul. The Taliban fled.

The triumph was total in the "splendid little war" that had cost one U.S. casualty. Or so it seemed. Yet, last month, the war against the Taliban entered its eighth year, the second longest war in our history, and America and NATO have never been nearer to strategic defeat.

So critical is the situation that Defense Secretary Robert Gates, in Kandahar last week, promised rapid deployment, before any Taliban spring offensive, of two and perhaps three combat brigades of the 20,000 troops requested by Gen. David McKiernan. The first 4,000, from the 10th Mountain, are expected in January.

With 34,000 U.S. soldiers already in country, half under NATO command, the 20,000 will increase U.S. forces there to 54,000, a 60 percent ratcheting up. Shades of LBJ, 1964-65. Afghanistan is going to be Obama's War. And upon its outcome will hang the fate of his presidency. Has he thought this through?

How do we win this war, if by winning we mean establishing a pro-Western democratic government in control of the country that has the support of the people and loyalty of an Afghan army strong enough to defend the nation from a resurgent Taliban?

We are further from that goal going into 2009 than we were five years ago.

What are the long-term prospects for any such success?

Each year, the supply of opium out of Afghanistan, from which most of the world's heroin comes, sets a new record. Payoffs by narcotics traffickers are corrupting the government. The fanatically devout Taliban had eradicated the drug trade, but is now abetting the drug lords in return for money for weapons to kill the Americans.

Militarily, the Taliban forces are stronger than they have been since 2001, moving out of the south and east and infesting half the country. They have sanctuaries in Pakistan and virtually ring Kabul.

U.S. air strikes have killed so many Afghan civilians that President Karzai, who controls little more than Kabul, has begun to condemn the U.S. attacks. Predator attacks on Taliban and al-Qaida in Pakistan have inflamed the population there.

And can pinprick air strikes win a war of this magnitude?

The supply line for our troops in Afghanistan, which runs from Karachi up to Peshawar through the Khyber Pass to Kabul, is now a perilous passage. Four times this month, U.S. transport depots in Pakistan have been attacked, with hundred of vehicles destroyed.

Before arriving in Kandahar, Gates spoke grimly of a "sustained commitment for some protracted period of time. How many years that is, and how many troops that is ... nobody knows."

Gen. McKiernan says it will be at least three or four years before the Afghan army and police can handle the Taliban.

But why does it take a dozen years to get an Afghan army up to where it can defend the people and regime against a Taliban return? Why do our Afghans seem less disposed to fight and die for democracy than the Taliban are to fight and die for theocracy? Does their God, Allah, command a deeper love and loyalty than our god, democracy?

McKiernan says the situation may get worse before it gets better. Gates compares Afghanistan to the Cold War. "(W)e are in many respects in an ideological conflict with violent extremists. ... The last ideological conflict we were in lasted about 45 years."

That would truly be, in Donald Rumsfeld's phrase, "a long, hard slog."

America, without debate, is about to invest blood and treasure, indefinitely, in a war to which no end seems remotely in sight, if the commanding general is talking about four years at least and the now-and-future war minister is talking about four decades.

What is there to win in Afghanistan to justify doubling down our investment? If our vital interest is to deny a sanctuary there to al-Qaida, do we have to build a new Afghanistan to accomplish that? Did not al-Qaida depart years ago for a new sanctuary in Pakistan?

What hope is there of creating in this tribal land a democracy committed to freedom, equality and human rights that Afghans have never known? What is the expectation that 54,000 or 75,000 U.S. troops can crush an insurgency that enjoys a privileged sanctuary to which it can return, to rest, recuperate and recruit for next year's offensive?

Of all the lands of the earth, Afghanistan has been among the least hospitable to foreigners who come to rule, or to teach them how they should rule themselves.

Would Dwight D. Eisenhower -- who settled for the status quo ante in Korea, an armistice at the line of scrimmage -- commit his country to such an open-ended war? Would Richard Nixon? Would Ronald Reagan?

Hard to believe. George W. Bush would. But did not America vote against Bush? Why is America getting seamless continuity when it voted for significant change?

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Obama Will End It
I believe Obama will end this war, too. Pat is right on target, again. What are we going to do next, invade Pakistan? We need to hightail it out of the these vengeance-society regions.

Presient-elect Obama: We need to review our strategy vis-a-vis Islamic jihad from A to Z. I think we ought to stop offending the Muslims, beef up our military, and be ready for ANYTHING. To leave some of these places would, on the surface, give us a PR victory. The world would see that we are not interested in oil, in disrespecting Islam. But then if the Islmaic terrorists continue, as if we had not listened, when in fact we had, then we will have no choice but to pre-empt again--if we are attacked. But first, we need to give peace a chance. We need to put the ball in their court by addressing bin Laden's written down grievances. (For example, our military on sacred soil--we should not be there anyway! How stupid can we be?) If oil is no longer an issue, we can adjust our "imperialism" to acceptable levels. Then, the ball will be in the court of the terror-minded Muslims. If they persist, depending on the state of the overall PR front, we would have the army to deal with whatever needed attention.

Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan can argue all this much better than I can, except that they are reluctant to get specific--other than to shout, AMERICA FIRST!

Moreover
there needs to be an overall strategy, one in which the principle of Unity is observed. In other words, what happens in the Israeli-Palestine conflict is part and parcel of what happens in the al-Qaida/America war. In other words, Tony Blair and Dennis Ross need to get together with Hillary and Bill and Jimmy Carter and put together another win-win deal, one without the loose ends that afflicted the Camp David "accords." Hillary none-too-subtley pointed up, in her acceptance speech the need for "higher ground and common causes." Higher ground would be the win for Israel--the Golan Heights. Common causes would be the statehood for Palestine. The wreckers of progress here need to be preempted, bigtime.

Pat is right
you don't win wars with pin-prick bombing raids. You win wars by CARPET BOMBING. You need a Patton type to win a war.
Oh yeah man, lets just pull out, come home and see what they do. Pat has been hanging out with Ulberdork and Mathews way too lon-- heck what am I saying Pat taught Ulberdork and Hardhead all they know.
In wars that are won people die. If we don't bring the jihadists to their knees they are going to come to America, maybe to your shopping mall and create carnage that you will have a hard time looking at. I have seen what explosions in crowded places look like, and you don't want to know.
Our mistake in this war (it's hard for me to even call this a war) is that we are way to soft on the enemy. More bombs, WAY more bombs are what is needed. Tell Karsai and mean it when you tell him, to Shut Up or he'll be bombed next.
Wars are not won until the enemy is convinced that he is about to die. We in the West cannot relate with what little regard these people have for their own lives let alone ours.


End of the war not in sight
I live in Khost province, Afghanistan. This is my fourth (4th) contract here on the roof of the world. There is no end in sight here, I can assure you. Obama may decide to just declare victory, and pull out, and blame it all on the Republicans.

If you want to end this war on any kind of reasonable terms, you will have to destroy the ability of the insurgents to wage war.

This will require new "rules of engagement" (ROE), that will permit hot pursuit into Pakistan to destroy insurgents. Increase in bombing, and napalm, to utterly destroy all safe havens for the insurgents.

It is time to stop playing "pat-a-cake" with these people, and get this war to a speedy conclusion.

cemab4y
Thank you for what you do and thanks for your post. Tough time to be where you are most back home really appreciate.

Hope you guys have the best Christmas conditions will allow.

Most Americans feel a great deal of love for you guys. Be safe and we hope you are home soon.

Pat is right
Neither occupation of Iraq, an attack on Iran, or nation building in Afghjanistan is in our national interest. the faster Obama reduces war spending the quicker he can divert the money to our domestic infrastructure spending and improve our economy. America first must be his priority.

Lessons from History That Might Work
What a familiar question to those of us who served in JFK's/LBJ's Southeast Asia War. Substitution of three words is all that is required. Why do our Afghans [Vietnamese] seem less disposed to fight and die for democracy than the Taliban [Communists] are to fight and die for theocracy [Communism]?
The question is based on ignoring a few simple facts - We did not let our Vietnamese [are not letting our Afghans] fight for their cause; the Russians did let their Vietnamese fight for their cause. We took over the fighting from our Vietnamese and our Afghans; the Russians did not take over the fighting for their Vietnamese.
Al-Qaeda is all but defeated in Afghanistan and Iraq. If still alive Osama bin Laden has been chased into functioning in hiding only as a sick, possibly wounded, weary voice on tape.
I suggest looking at Afghanistan in very different ways. Rather than building up, draw down and let the Afghans fight the Taliban. Divert our efforts full time to destroying OBL and the few remaining leaders of al-Qaeda wherever they are.
If we are not strong enough diplomatically or militarily to convince Pakistani cooperation it is time for us to get the hell out of the region and leave all those murderers to their generations of murdering.
Geographically though we might be wise to keep troops close to Iran on three sides, until and unless Iran’s nuclear-weapons ambitions are resolved by U.S. or Israeli air and naval strikes.
Again Southeast Asia comes to mind since Nixon got us out of that debacle by blocking Haiphong Harbor and B-52 carpet bombing of North Vietnam, moving closer daily to Hanoi.

A Nation of Warriors
We need new thinking about Afghanistan. We need to read history. This country's warriors have been fighting for centuries against Alexander the Great, the British, the Russians and now the Americans. We have to understand that fighting is what they do, what they love. Theirs is a warrior heritage. That's what they excel in. Prediction: They will outlast NATO and the Americans.

Afghanistan
We will be as unsuccessful as the USSR was and eventually have to leave the fighting to the locals like in Vietnam.No country can be propped up for ever as history has shown us over and over again.We either fight a war to win and destroy the enemy completely including the civilian casualties that come with it or we pack it up and go home.Why should we and NATO loose life's for a loosing cause?

I don't see this happening.
"What will destroy Afghanistan's experiment in democracy isn't the Taliban or other insurgent groups, but the lawlessness and corruption that have been allowed to fester under the government of President Hamid Karzai", so say two Afghan brothers, Saad and Jahid Mohseni, in an article today by David Ignatius at realclearpolitics.com.

Buchanan is right to question the continuation of a failed mission an Obama presidency inherits from Bush.

But the implication Obama will continue funneling troops and money into Afghanistan for years to come is where I disagree with Pat.

Acceding to the request by Bob Gates for a one-time deployment of more U.S. troops is not the same as countenancing a perpetual war in Afghanistan, especially when financial constraints will make selling that cause ever more difficult as Obama concentrates on domestic policy..his priority.

I don't see Obama going down the road of the past eight years.

After all, neocon hawks and democracy-crusaders that molded Bush foreign policy are absent in Obama's.

There are no Peter Scheunemanns or Paul Wolfowitzes in an Obama administration.

On Ignatius' article at realclearpolitics, I think he is on the money.

Taliban, for all its faults, does offer a strict code of behavior, does dispense Islamic justice, which the corrupt and out of touch Karzai government is incapable of delivering.

That is why the Taliban continues to have appeal with many Afghans.

We have no business trying to democratize either Afghanistan or Iraq until the respective peoples themselves demonstrate a desire for it.

And then it must not be done at the point of a gun.

Obama has one advantage

Obama does have one serious advantage. Once he is President Dick Durban, John Murtha, and the Liberal media will stop calling U.S. Troops murders. This will result in less recruitment of Talaban fighters.

Remember the Maine!!!
The invasion of Afghanistan was actually NOT justified - the Taliban was legally and morally obliged to see the evidence about the involvement in 9/11 - they were NEVER given any - even today - the Justice Dept has yet to indict Bin Laden for 9/11 - go to FBI.gov - click on the "Wanted" icon - UBL's thumbnail comes up to the upper right - where is there any reference to 9/11? Thats right - there is NONE! Investigate 9/11 - a REAL investigation - w/o the pretext of "nat'l security" as a instrument of obstructing justice.

DoULoveJesus.org

No clear win In Afghanland
Even Grand Master Obama will fail this test. The History of Armies in Afghanistan trying to tame that place are the same. No Army has or will ever subdue that place, Hell if Alexander the Great could'nt get the job done, then what makes you think a Chicago Community Organizer/President elect will be able to?

We Chose Iraq
There is no solution to winning this war as long as the enemy has a safe harbor in Pakistan, and as long as the enemy is willing to take casualties and die - as the Taliban have clearly demonstrated they are willing to do. There is not, after all, an effective functioning government in Afghanistan whose legitimacy is respected throughout the country. It is not just that the Taliban have greater influence in 1/2 the country than the existing government, but equally that war lords still run entire sections of the remainder of the country - with the exception of the Capital. In essence, Afghanistan is already a de facto divided country.

There is, in this context, no Afghanistan.

We have the option of ignoring the Pakistani government and engaging in hot pursuit into those regions that provide sanctuary to Bin Laden and the Taliban, but that would virtually guarantee a signficant expansion of the war - and of the troops we'd need. And to be blunt - we don't have the forces.

We chose to fight on two fronts and assumed that we could stabilize one fast enough to continue to support the second. But we failed to stabilize Iraq - and for years we have been unable to supply the forces to Afghanistan that our Commanders have asked for. Further, the funds necessary to rebuild Afghanistan were diverted as well.

Bush chose Iraq - let's not forget that. He concluded it was more important strategically than Afghanistan.

It always came down to forces and the funds necessary to rebuild a shattered country. We did not have enough to stabalize both Iraq and Afghanistan, and so, we chose Iraq.


Cont'd.
This is not, in the above context, Obama's War. It is Bush'es War. We diverted troops and reconstruction monies to Iraq, and allowed the situation in Afghanistan to deteriorate. This was a choice.

There is not, as a result, a solution. It will be neither neat nor clean.

The full prosecution of this war would very likely destabilize Pakistan - with her 160 million Moslems and nuclear weapons, as well as lead to far higher civilian casualties inside Aghanistan.

Bush refused to make these decisions, and the national security team Obamas has - one of which is Gates, is not going to make these decisions either.

The harsh reality is that we chose Iraq over Afghanistan.

We need to now accept that hard fact and act accordingly.

It took the full support of the Sunni tribes, the Shia's and the Kurds, plus 160,000 of our own forces to stabilize Iraq. And, it is pure myth making to pretend that we can put far fewer forces into a far larger and more mountainous country that is populated by a significant group of hostile forces that have existing sanctuaries in Pakistan, and do the same.

We will end up leaving. Just like the British and the Russians left.

Ideas that we can sit down with the Taliban and broker a peace are also myth making. After all, the Taliban are willing to fight for 100 years. Any agreement would have the same impact our agreements with the NVA had. We'd leave with a "little" dignity - and then, they'd ignore the treaties and restart the war.

The on thing . . .
that the muslims understand is strength. We should issue our own "fatwah" to the muslims. ANY attack on U. S. soil will result in the vaporization of a selected muslim "holy place". Subsequent attacks will result in the same. If the situation warrants, then DO IT.

Don't blame me Pat.....
I voted for you........

This is going to be Obummer's problem....just like LBJ....lol....

Redlac - Spot On
Afghanistan should have always been the focus. That is where Al-Quaeda and Bin Laden found sanctuary from the Taliban, as nasty a group of people as ever populated this earth. Thirteen of the sixteen terrorists of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia, the monarchists who foment radical Islam through the funding of the Madrassas. We are as far away from any victory in Iraq as we were 5 years ago. The Shiites and Sunnis are just biding their time until the US withdraws from Iraq. Sad but true.

Bottom line, Bush made a horrible decision and was supported by Congress. All of those who supported this decision should be voted out of office. Horrible legacy.

This is not a War
Its a world conquest, and this is just one small stage costing American lives so business and government can control all life

Ok
Ok, Patty, let's pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq, let Iran do whatever they want, let Israel go into the dustbin, align ourselves with the chatty Germans and Franks, and see how long we can hunker down before they come again. I noticed you only asked certain rhetorical questions from Reagan. How about asking whether he would allow Iran to go nuclear!

Islam is considerably stronger than democracy, the one point you make that must be recognized by our politicians.


Pat's an IDIOT!
As are his supporters! He show's his journalism background here [idiot]! I guess Pat would just let the fanatics run rampant until they are on our doorstep ... and then accept the sword! Pat's alternative ... oh, he doesn't have one and never does except to retreat and whine about Bush!

The extremists have suceeded.....
on all sides in creating a perpetual state of war. The religious and economic extremists in this country with unbridled funding from the Military Industrial Complex have sown a deep rooted thoughts/doctrines among the people of the United States. The only history that they have tried to repeat and instill among Americans is about WW-II and their "triumph" against the real monster Hitler. Again, forgetting the human history and the failure to understand oneself is what is propelling man kind towards catastrophe.

No matter what, the basic failure to understand MOST of the world's conflicts/problems do revolve around economic issues. They fail to understand no matter how many times the extremists in this country continue to potray economic issues as "us vs them" mentality or more to the point "good vs evil", there is no end in sight to this insanity.

Most human beings in the world are just like you and me, they want to live an happy life, see their childern grow, education and certain amound of economic prosperity. People fail to reliaze that having certain ideological convictions and standing by those are not the rule, but an exception, so they don't wake up thinking they would want to blow themselves for some kind of ideology. They do that because most of them believe, whether precieved or real that therE is no other option but take that stand, TO DENY THIS IS TO DENY HUMAN NATURE ITSELF.

I don't think Obama is going to change much of US policy, it's because the policies themselves are so rooted in the American psyche. But, maybe just maybe I would be proven wrong by Obama and would chart a real new course in world politics.

No, not surgical airstrikes...
...not with little conventional Air to Surface missles. What they need to do is throw a dozen or so 50-megaton nukes at some alQaeda encampments. Stop aggravating this infestation. Eradicate it. Radical Islam has publicly declared it's us or them, so I vote for us. Let's see if Barry O. has the b@lls to do something good for America.

We win the war
by first shutting off the drug growing and trade. I am sure we have some herbicide that would kill the poppies. Maybe some genetics work that would render the poppies incapable of making the sap containing halucinogen. When they no longer have money from drugs they will have to focus their efforts on a different persuit. What that is would be up to the people but drugs would not be an option.

Ronald in FL post # 7
I really enjoyed you taking the Ranger to the wood shed the other AM. Don't hesitate to shut him up if he insults, I don't and will not.

You and I and most on TH can disagree without name calling and insult, he cant. You did a better job putting him in his place than most, I envy your writing skills. Again good job.

end of Afganistan
Since Obama said if it came down to it -he would have to side with the Muslims I have no hope that the women of Afganistan who have made such strides with the businesses they've started and the schooling they are allowed now will be able to continue.--Whan Obama get done "siding with the Muslims".

the democrats chose afghanistan
as their kind of war as their election season justification for their surrender now policy in iraq. they have chosen their war, let them lose it.

Tribute to Pat . . . .I No Longer......
I no longer care if the Taliban take over Afghanistan or Europe for that Matter.
I no longer see any reason why we should fight anyone to preserve democracy when we can't even preserve it in America.
I no longer want America fighting in foreign lands when our allies sit on their keyholes mock us and only find the enemy is America.
I no longer care to protect Europe. Let them learn to defend themselves and increase their budget accordingly.
I no longer care what Iran does. If they want to throw nukes, let them. It would be their last act on this Earth.
I no longer care about Iraq, or it's people. I can spare a pair of soiled shoes to send the government of Iraq to show my feelings are mutual.
I no longer trust our Government or Congress. They do not represent me, nor do they represent the founding principles put forth in the Constitution.
I no longer feel it necessary to call myself a Republican when it defines nothing but values based weakness in appeasing liberals.
I do think Pat is a Patriot.
It's time we think about us.

Reply to SKY in AZ....
well said fellow patriot....well said.....here, here...TOAST! (clink - two ales together)

cheers........!

Ironically, key point was
"How do we win this war, if by winning we mean establishing a pro-Western democratic government in control of the country..."

Basically accept that you will never have a democracy for much duration amongst "Western" (basically, those between Gandak River and Mediterranean Sea) Muslims; in other words, US could have withdrawn after driving out Taliban, and hoped for a pro-Western DICTATORSHIP/MONARCHY to takeover--the risk of an anti-Western one being inherent.

However, on the following: "The fanatically devout Taliban had eradicated the drug trade, but is now abetting the drug lords in return for money for weapons to kill the Americans."

Taliban's intent was never to eradicate the drug trade (their morality never exceeded that of Pakistan's unremorseful war-criminal dictator Zia ul-Haq, who planted their seeds during Soviet occupation times--basically to serve his own ends), but to spike the prices of opium products (and thus their revenues--they had stockpiled opium and heroin prior to the so-called eradication) and (in a "two birds" way) to assert their own totalitarian mastery of Afghanistan (basically, they could dictate what could be planted by a farmer).

1 - Obama’s civil war…
The US intentionally became a post-Christian nation…

A majority of the US voted for a Godless-Marxist president and government…

That means the US was added to the list of nations Jesus will have to conquer when he returns to the earth…

You have abandoned and you have forgotten
The Lion of the Tribe of Judah
The rider on the white horse
Who with justice
He judges and makes war
He leads the armies of heaven
He treads the winepress
Of the fury of God’s wrath
He faces the kings of the earth
And their armies
He strikes down the nations
With his sword
He feeds them to the birds
He will reign over the earth
For a thousand years
With an iron scepter
Faithful and True
The Word of God
King of Kings
Lord of Lords

Merry Christmas...

2 - Obama’s civil war…

Our US military is much better off being battle hardened by two small wars, rather than being hippy cowards like Pat Buchanan. Our problem now is our military will be used for all the wrong reasons because the Godless Marxist Obama who will never be my president, will be their Commander in Chief, and the decisions he makes about when and how to use our military will be wrong because his agenda for the US and for the world is to give the finger to Christianity, to give the finger to capitalism, to give the finger to the US 1776 Revolution, US patriotism, and US exceptionalism, all of which are reducing the US further into the tribalism of street gangs. His Godless Marxism has always been and will always be about bringing down “the man” ending the 500 years of dominance of wealth and power of white European Christian straight males. It’s about bringing up the poor and oppressed groups of blacks, women, and gays, Hispanics and Muslims and every other oppressed group they invent, in the diversity of what used to be the US. It will end every imposition of Christian based morality and traditional religion and replace it with ACLU Godlessness and lawlessness. Under Obama the US shouldn’t be a superpower. It should be in a long civil war…

Merry Christmas…

Pat is past it
America voted for Obama. Obama said Afghanistan must be won. The democrats always said Bush didn't focus on Afghanistan when he should have. Pat has been on TV giving credibility to looney tunes MSNBC vomiters. Pat needs to go away.

chas
"Godless Marxist Obama."

and George Bush?

Isn't the $750 Bush-Bolshevik bank bailout Socialism? The Republican party is very similar to the Bolshevik party in Russia circa 1917.

Russia was governed by a triumvirate of three men called Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky and Joseph Stalin.

Today, Republican-Bolsheviks are George Bush, Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke.

And now the Republican wealth-redistribution continues. Today, I read that banks, having received their first $250 billion installment of taxpayer monies, are distributing it to their sacred stockholders in the form of dividend checks.

Another item on the banker's list on how to best use the taxpayer's money, is to partake in some lucrative Mergers and Acquisition activity. Oh, these Bush-Bolsheviks are clever in their wealth redistribution. Now, I'm beginning to think the term 'Bush-Fascists' is more apropos. What do you think?

The war in Afganistan
Jack David is loony. Exactly what would you do to appease Bin Laden? Begin Sharia law in the U.S. Give Israel back to the Palestinians. Bow to Mecca four times a day. Nothing will be enough. Afghanistan is a losing proposition--too much rugid terrain, too many places to strike from, and a hostile muslim population. There will be lots of deaths and of course world opinion will be focused on us by a hostile U.S. media. Carpet bomb the hell out of the rebel held areas, spray the poppies, and force the locals into cities. Fight the war as we successfully fought the Apachies, Germans, and as the British fought in Malaysia--no quarter given.

Jimbo and Jay
Did you ever wonder why after the other colonial nations but mostly the Brits and the French pulled out of those Middle East nations we were dumb enough to get involved in those snake pits?

Do you think that our ME policy will go down as among the brighter moved ever made?

Frankie
"Fight the war as we successfully fought the Apachies, Germans, and as the British fought in Malaysia--no quarter given."

The first time this great country imposed a nationwide income tax was in 1861. Mr. Lincoln faced an expensive war, and paid for it with taxes.

Today's 'greatest generation' can only pay for the 'War on Terror' with tax cuts and dumping the entire cost onto future generations. Oorah!

Same basic issue of strength.
So far the United States has never made peace without doing so from a position of strength. Even when the US pulled its military out of Vietnam in 1973, it did so while vastly increasing the strength of the South Vietnamese. The mistake was leaving the South Vietnamese to fend for themselves before there was no doubt or question they would remain secure, and this mistake in assuming too much led to the defeat of the South Vietnamese in 1975. So it's unlikely the US will make the same mistake twice.

Especially in Afghanistan, which was invaded by the Soviets most likely as a direct consequence of this mistake.

So I'd wager that no US president will leave Afghanistan to the Taliban.

No matter how long it takes.

And this shouldn't be an impossible task because the Taliban did not even originate in Afghanistan, and are strange to most Afghans, and appear
to be the creation of Saudis who went there during the Soviet invasion, and have decided to become invaders themselves. Looks like these Saudis set up shop in Pakistan also, and have set up a new brainwashing network that generates a steady supply of recruits. And that network is their strength.

Chip
"So far the United States has never made peace without doing so from a position of strength."

So long as we cherish the tax cut, we will maintain a position of strength. Cherish the Tax Cut!

Zapdoodat...
Zapdoodat you asked “and George Bush?”

You will have to ask Pres GWB what he is, not me...

I really could defend Pres GWB but before I even have a discussion let me try to figure out what tribe you are from, so what we say won’t be lost due to us speaking different languages…

Which tribe are you from?

Capitalist Christianity imposed 1776 patriotic

Capitalist Christianity imposed not 1776 patriotic

Capitalist Godless secularist 1776 patriotic

Capitalist Godless secularist not 1776 patriotic

Marxist Christianity imposed 1776 patriotic

Marxist Christianity imposed not 1776 patriotic

Marxist Godless secularist 1776 patriotic

Marxist Godless secularist not 1776 patriotic



These are mutually exclusive ideas…

One idea is always at the expense of the other…

They are irreconcilable differences…



Chip
Taliban are a creation of Pakistan..you know, are allies in this "war on terror".

p.s.
our, not are.

excuse me.

The crazies here seem to have a plan:
Bomb, Bomb, Bomb. And then Bomb some more!

I would like all of you guys to honestly tell me something:

Did you ever in your entire life go to bed at night worrying about Saddam Hussein or Iraq?

Personally, I worried more about getting a flat tire than I EVER worried about Saddam or Iraq...or Afghanistan, or Iran or any of those nations where our axx does not belong.

The Brits and the French realized the folly of their Colonialization Strategy and that they were riding a dead horse in trying to control and rape those nations so they bailed out. But then the dumb sh!ts who run our nation decided to jump right in. Boy, that has turned out great, hasn't it?


The USA has assumed the role of the
European colonial powers of early times.

Trying to hide this fact behind propaganda phrases like "spreading democracy", "the indispensible nation", "protecting America", "fighting terrorism", "remember 911", and implying that if the U.S. Imperial Army weren't stationed in bases all over the world, we'd be invaded and destroyed does not change the fact that America has become morally (as well as financially) bankrupt.

The USS Titanic is sinking, yet most
folks refuse to believe it.


Afghanistan was also the wrong war....
Heroic Pat Buchanan does it again!

The US had no business invading Iraq. Most people now realize this. However, many still support the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, however, since the Taliban were fundamentalist Muslims.

However, there is just as much evidence the Taliban had anything to do with 9-11, as there is that Iraq did. That is, there is no evidence whatsoever. So, we've managed to blow several hundred billion in both Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which had nothing to do with 9-11.

As Buchanan has pointed out, the ultimate resolution of our immoral and unconstitutional foreign wars will be economic. Folks, we don't have the money to finance a global empire.

After 9-11, the US demanded the extradition of Bin Laden from Afghanistan. The Taliban, quite understandably, did the civilized thing and asked to see the evidence that Bin Laden had actually been involved. The US refused, choosing instead to start its splendid little war.

It is required, by the way, that countries demanding extradition share the evidence they have with the host country. This is true with every country on earth. So the Taliban was being reasonable. George W. Bush was not.

Ron Paul is right about non-interventionism. If the Republican Party is to come back from his truly dreadful presidency, they need to understand the importance of non-interventionism in foreign affairs.

In my US we learned to sing...

From the halls of Montezuma,
To the shores of Tripoli…

Look it up...

The truth will set you free...

chas
Are you telling us that God...King of Kings...Lord of Lords, was so dumb that He allowed a "Godless-Marxist president and government" to be elected to lead our great nation?

Gosh, what a nasty Christmas present!

BTW, any truth to the rumor that Obama is also going to kill all the puppies and stop the spring flowers from blooming?

1 - How involved with people is God?

Tom you wrote:

“Are you telling us that God...King of Kings...Lord of Lords, was so dumb that He allowed a "Godless-Marxist president and government" to be elected to lead our great nation? Gosh, what a nasty Christmas present! BTW, any truth to the rumor that Obama is also going to kill all the puppies and stop the spring flowers from blooming?”

My reply:

I got the humor it was funny…

Sorry I took so long in replying, but I wanted to give a thoughtful reply, and what is a very long answer to these questions…

What do people do?

What does God do?

How involved with people is God?

I’m a religious person that has to have real world answers that are the tip of the sword in the enemies’ heart…

What I understand about God not simple or simplistic. I take into account a lot of things God has revealed about himself and try to connect to the real world…

God is not unknowable; he wants everybody to know God…

I hope it makes sense…

2 - How involved with people is God?

US Declaration of Independence

“When in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.”

3 - How involved with people is God?

God doesn’t form Governments people do. But the authority to form governments came from God. The region where Israel is, who the trade routes, and sea lanes will be formed by and ruled by, long before it actually happened in history, God planned it. People lived it out for thousands of years. Daniel 2: “The god of heaven has given you dominion power might and glory.” God gave the vision to the king of Babylon which Daniel interpreted; there was a statue describing God’s plan for Babylon head of gold, Persians arms and chest of silver, Alexander the Great Greece belly and thighs of bronze, and the Roman Empire legs strong as iron, Arabs feet of Iron and clay. It is really funny that the king immediately orders the statue to be built but to be entirely of gold, and required everybody to worship it, to disagree with God and say my Babylon of gold will be the only great empire forever. Jesus told Pilate the authority of the Roman Empire to crucify Jesus came from God. Paul said in Romans, those Roman soldiers don’t wear that sword for decoration; their power and authority come from God, they are God’s servants.

4 - How involved with people is God?

Moses’ argument with God on the mountain, was about if God would lead them or not. If God is really bothered by the evil in a nation he has to leave, or they’re all gonna be toast. He has to leave one of “the gods of the nations” the angels and demons in charge. Some of the animal spirit gods have made their parts of this world, the way God told them, and others have made things God doesn’t like; things Jesus will change when he rules over the whole earth for 1000 years, like poisonous snakes and lions that kill humans. Some of the gods oppose God some support God. Some gods tell the truth and some lie. Some gods misrepresent God to people, idolatry, and some represent God accurately. In Job, God didn’t know what Satan was doing, until God told him to give an account. God didn’t know what Hitler was doing and couldn’t stop him because God wasn’t around, only the gods he left in charge were. God couldn’t stop the evil he had to use the US military to stop the NAZIS.

5 - How involved with people is God?

If the US under Obama has a Godless agenda, all people have the god given authority to form an evil government, like the USSR. God won’t know about it or be able to stop it except by raising up another powerful nation to militarily defeat the evil US. God couldn’t stop what the USSR was doing to the Russian Orthodox Christians. If Christians can’t honor defenders of the faith, they have to honor the martyrs. Because of the fall people are free to do the right thing or the wrong thing. Sometimes the only place Christians can take refuge is in the fact that someday everybody will give an account of what they did in their lifetime. God will judge each individual, and reward or punish them based on his moral laws. There is also a community responsibility, “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.” The US is a post-Christian nation. The US was, but is no longer, “one nation under God indivisible.” We the people always have the right to have another long civil war or sign another declaration of independence. When our government is giving the finger to Capitalism, Christianity, and the Constitution, I hope we do.


chas
Your argument makes no sense.

First of all, lest you think that I'm some sort of nut case atheist...I attended for 8 years and graduated from a Christian school.

If you believe (as you should) that God is in fact omniscient, omnipotent, and all-knowing then there can be no reason why that same God would not be able to prevent the horrors of a Hitler or a Stalin.

It's nonsense to pretend that there is only one God...except when terrible things are allowed to happen and then you dance around it by inventing "some gods" who are just as powerful as your omni-powerful God.

Actually, your statement that God was not even powerful enough to "stop the Nazi's" might diqualify you from entering heaven. If you have that little faith and belief in your God and the He actually had to have "the US military to stop the NAZIS" then your faith is in sad shape my friend!

6 - How involved with people is God?

Tom…

Okay, I usually don’t reply line by line, I just try to state what I think in the most concise manner I can, but you seem genuinely interested in the subject so I will make an exception…


“Your argument makes no sense.”

My career started in a factory and ended on a construction site and never got much higher than that for thirty years. My beliefs have been knocked around by the real world of public schools and community colleges raising a family, teaching Sunday schools, and attending three years full time of Christian college trying to become a missionary. I have tried to seek God for almost fifty years. I have learned hermeneutics, apologetics, theology, cross cultural studies, etc. I try to bring the ideas down to a level that can be understood by the real world...

7 - How involved with people is God?

“First of all, lest you think that I'm some sort of nut case atheist...I attended for 8 years and graduated from a Christian school.”

I didn’t make any assumptions about you; I really meant it when I said I wanted to give a thoughtful reply. If it came across like you say, I’m sorry. That was not my intention. My comments have edge in them because I have developed them on the internet attacking people who give the finger to Christianity…


8 - How involved with people is God?

“If you believe (as you should) that God is in fact omniscient, omnipotent, and all-knowing then there can be no reason why that same God would not be able to prevent the horrors of a Hitler or a Stalin.”

Gregory A. Boyd’s book “God at War, The Bible and Spiritual Conflict,” C 1997 IVP, really changed my theology. Quote from p.47 “But it is precisely this view of omniscience as omnicontrol that the classical-philosophical theistic perspective logically implies and has often explicitly affirmed. Hence it has always leaned strongly in the direction of affirming that evil ultimately fits into God’s beautiful sovereign plan even though he (paradoxically) hates it. As Augustine teaches, evil may go against Gods will, but it does not occur outside it. The unresolvability of the classical-philosophical problem of evil lies precisely in the unintelligibility of this position”

I now understand you don’t have to believe God knows about or is in control of what he Nazis did, and what the Soviets did. God opposed it and was at war against the spiritual powers and expected his people to be at war against the earthly powers that caused these atrocities.

9 - How involved with people is God?

“It's nonsense to pretend that there is only one God...except when terrible things are allowed to happen and then you dance around it by inventing "some gods" who are just as powerful as your omni-powerful God.”

Gailyn Van Rheenen’ book “Communicating Christ in Animistic Contexts” C 1991 Baker, really changed my world view. “Paradoxically most of the people coming to Christ in the world are of an Animistic tradition, while the missionaries initiating the movements and evangelizing in those contexts are of a secular heritage. This book helps equip missionaries from a largely secular background to minister in the animistic contexts of the world.”

I now understand that when God said to Moses “I will send my angel to go before you”… I don’t have to interpret it into some wordplay and I know God really meant angel. When Jesus cast out a demon, I believe it really was a demon. There really are blessings and curses. People who have been secularized by a scientific and materialistic world view do not believe any of that supernatural stuff is real. I believe it’s all real. There is only one God, who is three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are also gods of the nations, all through the scriptures. They are less powerful than god, and created by God to run the world. They answer to God…

You can’t explain Proverbs 8. Who is “Wisdom?” ”The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works… I was the craftsman at God’s side”…

There are a lot of verses about the gods of the nations you can’t explain like:
Ex 20:3-6, Lev 17:7, Dt 32:15-42, II Chr 11:15, Ps 82:1-8, Ps 106:36-47, Ps 115:2-9, Isa 40:18-20 Isa 41:7,21-24, Isa 44:8-20, Jer 10:1-5, 14-15, 1Cor 10:8-33, Rev 9:20-21 The least we can say is they were real and God was opposing them, rather than saying it was wordplay…

10 - How involved with people is God?

“Actually, your statement that God was not even powerful enough to "stop the Nazi's" might disqualify you from entering heaven. If you have that little faith and belief in your God and the He actually had to have "the US military to stop the NAZIS" then your faith is in sad shape my friend!”

God had already left so that everybody wasn’t toast. He left gods in charge. The gods that were in charge were Satan and other demons. God didn’t find out what was going on until he asked them and they gave an account. God opposed it but was powerless to stop it until the US military defeated the Nazis. Maybe God supernaturally intervened to help the US military defeat them. When God saw what the Nazis did He grieved, and his heart was full of pain. Gen 6:6 Jesus wept. John 11:35 But there are things God can do, and there are things God expects his people to do. I think you are possibly expecting God to do, the things he expects us to do. Jesus will conquer all the nations and rule the whole world when it is time for him to return. Until then it is up to us, if Christians are in power, to be defenders of the faith like the Christian knights were. If Christians are not in power then you have to honor the martyrs…

As for my faith, I left the Churches almost ten years ago, for reasons I won’t boar you with. My faith has been rocky since then, sad shape is accurate. But it’s not because of my differences in theology and worldview…

11 - How involved with people is God?

This shouldn’t just be the questions you answer at baptism; it must be the warfare mortal kombat attitude of every Christian every day the rest of your whole life with sanctification…

Do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness that rebel against God?

Do you renounce the evil powers of this world which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God?

Do you renounce all the sinful desires that draw you from the love of God?

Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your savior?

Do you put your whole trust in his grace and love?

Do you promise to follow and obey him as your Lord?

Recite the Apostle’s Creed:

I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of Heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended into hell. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting, Amen.
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