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Friday, November 21, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who Killed Detroit?
by Pat Buchanan
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Who killed the U.S. auto industry?

To hear the media tell it, arrogant corporate chiefs failed to foresee the demand for small, fuel-efficient cars and made gas-guzzling road-hog SUVs no one wanted, while the clever, far-sighted Japanese, Germans and Koreans prepared and built for the future.

I dissent. What killed Detroit was Washington, the government of the United States, politicians, journalists and muckrakers who have long harbored a deep animus against the manufacturing class that ran the smokestack industries that won World War II.

As far back as the 1950s, an intellectual elite that produces mostly methane had its knives out for the auto industry of which Ike's treasury secretary, ex-GM chief Charles Wilson, had boasted, "What's good for America is good for General Motors, and vice versa."

"Engine Charlie" was relentlessly mocked, even in Al Capp's L'il Abner cartoon strip, where a bloviating "General Bullmoose" had as his motto, "What's good for Bullmoose is good for America!"

How did Big Government do in the U.S. auto industry?

Washington imposed a minimum wage higher than the average wage in war-devastated Germany and Japan. The Feds ordered that U.S. plants be made the healthiest and safest worksites in the world, creating OSHA to see to it. It enacted civil rights laws to ensure the labor force reflected our diversity. Environmental laws came next, to ensure U.S. factories became the most pollution-free on earth.

It then clamped fuel efficiency standards on the entire U.S. car fleet.

Next, Washington imposed a corporate tax rate of 35 percent, raking off another 15 percent of autoworkers' wages in Social Security payroll taxes

State governments imposed income and sales taxes, and local governments property taxes to subsidize services and schools.

The United Auto Workers struck repeatedly to win the highest wages and most generous benefits on earth -- vacations, holidays, work breaks, health care, pensions -- for workers and their families, and retirees.

Now there is nothing wrong with making U.S. plants the cleanest and safest on earth or having U.S. autoworkers the highest-paid wage earners.

That is the dream, what we all wanted for America.

And under the 14th Amendment, GM, Ford and Chrysler had to obey the same U.S. laws and pay at the same tax rates. Outside the United States, however, there was and is no equality of standards or taxes.

Thus when America was thrust into the Global Economy, GM and Ford had to compete with cars made overseas in factories in postwar Japan and Germany, then Korea, where health and safety standards were much lower, wages were a fraction of those paid U.S. workers, and taxes were and are often forgiven on exports to the United States.

All three nations built "export-driven" economies.

The Beetle and early Japanese imports were made in factories where wages were far beneath U.S. wages and working conditions would have gotten U.S. auto executives sent to prison.

The competition was manifestly unfair, like forcing Secretariat to carry 100 pounds in his saddlebags in the Derby.

Japan, China and South Korea do not believe in free trade as we understand it. To us, they are our "trading partners." To them, the relationship is not like that of Evans & Novak or Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. It is not even like the Redskins and Cowboys. For the Cowboys only want to defeat the Redskins. They do not want to put their franchise out of business and end the competition -- as the Japanese did to our TV industry by dumping Sonys here until they killed it.

While we think the Global Economy is about what is best for the consumer, they think about what is best for the nation.

Like Alexander Hamilton, they understand that manufacturing is the key to national power. And they manipulate currencies, grant tax rebates to their exporters and thieve our technology to win. Last year, as trade expert Bill Hawkins writes, South Korea exported 700,000 cars to us, while importing 5,000 cars from us.

That's Asia's idea of free trade.

How has this Global Economy profited or prospered America?

In the 1950s, we made all our own toys, clothes, shoes, bikes, furniture, motorcycles, cars, cameras, telephones, TVs, etc. You name it. We made it.

Are we better off now that these things are made by foreigners? Are we better off now that we have ceased to be self-sufficient? Are we better off now that the real wages of our workers and median income of our families no longer grow as they once did? Are we better off now that manufacturing, for the first time in U.S. history, employs fewer workers than government?

We no longer build commercial ships. We have but one airplane company, and it outsources. China produces our computers. And if GM goes Chapter 11, America will soon be out of the auto business.

Our politicians and pundits may not understand what is going on. Historians will have no problem explaining the decline and fall of the Americans.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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©Creators Syndicate
We're about done. . .
We've destroyed our manufacturing base, and now elected an America-hating socialist president. Our morals are in the toilet, our schools government run and more obsessed with promoting acceptance of homosexuality than in teaching math and English (excuse me, I forgot mandated bi-lingualism).

All part of the downward spiral into chaos and destruction.

Goodbye, America. It was great for awhile.

Free Trade is such a laugher
We have as much free trade as communist Russia had.

The Government runs every major business into the ground with all the incredible restrictions and taxes.

And people whine about labor, which has more tariffs placed on it than all the tariffs of the 20's and 30's together.

(yes the union sucks as bad as the government)

We do not place tariffs on imported goods any longer, the Government places them on our own manufacturing and labor.
The taxes tariffs once paid are now all paid by working Americans under a different name is all.




We have one of two things happening with such stupidity.
1.Either we have the biggest morons ever born running government
OR
2. We have traitors intentionally destroying America from inside.

Actually, I believe we have both.
Never seen such madness as this day is producing.

When manufacturing is gone, we will be a third world nation.
Just exactly like the liberals dumb down the schools to make all things "equal", the same attitude is in Government to bring us down to the standards of Bangladesh or Mexico.

Nothing is going to stop this but a rebellion. peaceful or otherwise because the Government is going to push until they meet resistance.
I am doubting America still has enough independent free men who can resist the government of today.

Rapid decline of America.
You are correct on every point.
And I agree with you.
One event could change part of our dilema. If GM goes bankrupt, the next day it could be open and operating under bankruptcy as the airlines have done!

Shed the union contract, and unpayable debt, and they might survive trying to square the circle and produce an attractive 40 MPG car. Made out of tinfoil?

You are correct the Left would dance for joy if our car business folded. But the unions gave so much $$ to the Democrats that $50 B is a small payback price. What do Liberals care? They are working for the defeat and collapse of the US. To the Left bad news is good news!

Keep the faith.
Tom Shannon

High tariffs
were always the key to protecting the American market place. They worked fine for a couple centuries. You can blame the current situation on whoever had the bright idea of opening up American markets to the entire world.

I worked in a foundry in Detroit in the '60s, a job I would wish on no one. I don't begrudge for a minute the fact that the govt, or the unions, or whomever, cleaned up the workplace. I don't begrudge the high wages earned by people who do that mindless, slavish work. I do begrudge the fact that some corporations nudged some politicians in order to do an end-run around the American worker, who now has to compete against labor practices that were outlawed in the US a century ago. Now, the American consumer cannot even 'Buy American' in protest.

Anyone who did not see this train-wreck coming decades ago was snoozing. Will the last American manufacturer please turn off the lights?

"Free" traders are undoubtedly puzzled
by this turn of events. Or they turn the blame solely on management. I witnessed the "workers' paradise" growing up in Cleveland in the 60's and 70's. My high school classmates screwed around, got their diplomas and joined their dads on the line making more per hour than I'm making now, with a college degree a full three decades later.

Health care? Every dime was paid for. And in retirement, the conveyor belt of goodies continued. Yes there are many reasons the auto industry is on its death bed but unrealistic largess certainly hastened its demise.

Where does it work?
I don't believe Detroit could have gotten into this mess without government help, but please. Anyone who didn't see this coming, had to not be looking at all.

I'm all for working folks making a decent buck but you are going way to easy on the UAW Pat. I know, I know, management is no jewel either. But they had to think that there was no other way, I saw the union guy sit there yesterday and say that the UAW's position is just fine, that they had given all they could give. Well, I'll bet they wind up giving back a lot of what they've stolen over the last couple of decades.

Someone please point out, where you have a powerful union today that is not royally screwing up whatever enterprise in which they are engaged? The unions are a good idea whose time has passed.

Working Americans NEVER
Had anything to do with TARIFFS.

Tariffs were placed on imported goods because the RICH MEN who owned American Manufacturing WANTED TARIFFS.

They got them through political parties, mainly republicans at the turn of the 20th century.

Tariffs did not benefit the working class AT ALL!
In fact they cost working Americans more.

Tariffs benefitted the RICH men who owned the manufacuturing because we still has a NATION and not as we are now, a global flop house.

The RICH men NO longer want TARIFFS because NOW they want to move MANUFACTURING OUT of America to places they can GET CHEAP LABOR and bring the products BACK HERE TO SELL TO US FOR A HIGHER PROFIT, AND LESS GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS AND TAXES.

Only one side of this lying about tariffs get told today as the RICH men own the press and the politicians.

Patrick is one of the only men NOT owned by the crooks and tells the other side, the truth of it all

GLOBALISM IS WHAT HAS DESTROYED AMERICA

Globalism and Free Trade may sound just dandy to the elite likes of George Will and those who Buchanan has stated wanted to destroy our nations Auto Industries but this is the very thing that has brought our country to where its at now.

For years now the Globalist Elites have been trying to bring America to her knees and the Auto Industry is one of the last legs on the chair they have tried to break. In the past our Auto industry has provided the kinds of jobs that have kept a stable middle class in our country and just like a chain reaction, other industries and companies have benefited and indirectly been affected because of their its presence.

The Globalist like George W. Bush and McCain have told Americans that these jobs will never come back and that you must go get re-trained at the community colleges...right!!?? Re-trained for what???? The only thing they want to leave for us after the country has been raped and pillaged are low paying fast food jobs and customer service jobs. No wonder americans cannot pay their high mortgages.


Enviros shut off our oil and chaos
Pat
Lets remember how this collapse happened just a number of months ago. The Environmentals cut off our supply of OIL, the thing that every industrial country runs on.

We shut off the German army's supply of oil, and it meant no tiger tanks in the bushes, and no Stukas dropping on our troops. That started the collapse of Germany.

And now the Environmentals are attacking our country with a shortage of oil. It is our turn and this will not end until we get realistic leadership in Washington - AND shoot the Liberal environmental snake.

Well that's what is needed!
Keep the faith.

Tom Sullivan

Bob
You wrote:
"The unions are a good idea whose time has passed."

That is the absolute truth!

My father worked for Caterpillar for over 18 years, and every 3 years there was a strike. My father lost far more in wages as a result of the strikes, than the union ever got back for him. My father did not like the union and referred to the ones who always wanted to strike as (and I quote) "stupid hotheads". My parents had to start saving up money as soon as each strike ended and saved money for 3 years, knowing in advance that the money would have to basically be thrown away when there was another strike in 3 years. It really rankled my father that the union negotiators got to stay at the nice hotels and eat banquets of food while the strikers were suffering financially. As my father said, the union bosses don't really care about the workers - they only care about themselves.

THIS IS EL TORO POOH POOH BOUT GUZZLERS

Anyone who thinks that Toyota and Honda don't build road Hog Gas Guzzlers is living in La La Land.

The American Car industry is the perfect example as Buchanan has explained about why Globalism and the Free Trade Cartels are killing Americas ability to compete even in our own country. The inequities of the industry are as plain as day and need to be addressed.

At one time I believed it was all the Unions fault but I have changed my mind as I have gotten older and have seen that its more about the Greed of the Globalist and their Agenda to re-invent America and her constitution into just another third world country.

The Globalists like Bill Gates, David Rockefeller, Warren Buffet are not worried about ever losing their money because of Taxes because they have all of their wealth hidden in Tax Free Foundations...so, for them Socialism is o.k. because they will never be socialists because they have most of the money. This is one reason why they hate the blue collar workers in the Auto factories is because they made a good living and were able to help sustain our middle class and keep it going.

The Globalists would like to see our middle class destroyed...they don't and never have believed in Free Enterprise or the small business owner or entrepreneur..because everything they do with their Free Trade Cartel agenda is to stifle American Competition by presenting an unlevel playing field in which Americans simply cannot compete with unfair advantages of cheap labor, no enivironmentalist agendas, and no OSHA and no rigorous Equality Standards of diversity.







Corporate Raiders Anyone???
Mitt Romney does not even come close to the integrity of his father George Romney who sat down with labor and management and even took a pay cut himself from what I understand in order to save the auto company he oversaw.
I heard Mitt Romney on Fox yesterday and he sounded like a corporate raider who thought that the only way to save Detroit is by having them file chapter eleven so they can dictate and renogiate the union contracts. After observing Mitt Romney on Lou Dobbs some time back, I am now convinced that Mitt Romney is a Globalist too and does not have the true concern of those hard working Americans who have labored in our industry for so long.


There must be a better way though, the auto management have had over thirty (30) years to get their heads out of their gluteous maximus but they still have not. I believe that all management should be fired with no golden parachutes....the workers should not be penalized for their indecisiveness.

I can see the point of those who want to let the industry die but there really is no logical reason that they could not compete or build more efficient cars if they wanted to. In fact, this problem has been ongoing for over thirty (30) years since the oil embargo in 1970's. I blame management for this problem and do not believe the Union Auto workers should be blamed. Perhaps they should sit down and negotiate but I do not believe as I once did that they should be punished for our government and their management poor decisions that have hurt all american workers. Perhaps if the unions would agree to the same pay scale as Toyota and Honda this would help. Perhaps they could buyout some of the medical benefits...I just do not know but if they do not compromise then they might be out of a job altogether.







LETS GET REAL FOLKS !!! ??

I will have to agree with Pelosi that until management can at least come up with a plan...they should not even be considered for a bailout. Perhaps they should just scrap management altogether and start with some new management and sell off their fleet of lear jets...that might be a start??? Don'tcha think???


Buchanan has long been...
...the only conservative who cared about the decline of the American manufacturing base. All the rest worship at the alter of "free" trade. Yes, Clinton did too- there is plenty of blame to go arund.

Most conservatives like to blame the unions. As if having a low-wage workforce should be the goal! Anyway, when you read about that $2000 cost differential between what it costs to build an American car and a foriegn-car-assembled-in-America, what they don't tell you is that over 90 percent of that is retiree benefits- so-called "legacy" costs. The reason Toyota and Honda don't have those costs at their American plants has nothing to do with the UAW and everything to do with the fact that those plants have been here for such a short period of time that they don't have any retirees!

But hey you union-haters, go ahead and cut off your noses to spite your faces. Who cares if we lose those 2 million middle class jobs and stop making things here? I'm sure the Germans and Japanese will make the bombs and tanks for our future wars.

Tom
The collapse of the Big Three did not recently happen. They have not been profitable or competititive for some time and they all knew that they were in trouble.

The union recently renegotiated their contracts to reflect the "Detroit South" workers pay at Toyota, Honda, etc. They were just a few years to late to see reality. The "cadillac" health care benefits are still a major problem, as they are owed to lots of young retirees and their families.

Bankruptcy is the only answer whether now or in a few more years. Unless management and the union can become more realistic.

Sir Asian, you are correct. My Tundra is a gas hog but the arm rests stay on and it runs and drives like a Lexsus. I buy new pickup every 4 to 5 years, Tundra is far better than GM Ford.

"growth industries" of the future.
Sir Aslan and Laborlawyer make good points.

Pelosi and others who insist the auto execs come up with a plan before doling out the government loans, makes sense.

I think it is vital to maintain a domestic automobile manufacturing capability.

Buchanan is right that these problems were inevitable once U.S. industry decided to compete in the global economy against lower wage earner nations not "burdened" by OSHA and other regulations.

On legacy costs impacting traditional domestic manufacturers much more severely than stateside Toyota plants, Laborlawyer is probably correct.

The governments of some of our competitors provide health care for their employees...which places our industries at a comparative disadvantage.

The perception is out there that UAW workers are compensated at $75/hr in salary and benefits.

I suspect many, if not most, do not make that, especially new hires. I believe new employees have a different pay structure, altho I don't know whether they have a different benefit package.

We Americans love our roomy vehicles with powerful engines.

The open road...the endless highway...it was what America was all about.

That is the very essence of America.

Detroit did not force these gas guzzlers on us.

We wanted them.

I have a Toyota Tundra with the 5.7 engine, and just love it.

Very quick and responsive for a big pickup.

It was made here..that includes the engine, transmission, and other parts.

But I would have bought it no matter where it was made, as long as it had that size, handling and quickness.

We must avoid a scenario where the "growth industries" of the future will consist of government employees dispensing unemployment benefits, or private sector employees in financial institutions specializing in "restructuring" consumer debt.

Talent scout
Absolutley correct.

Perhaps it's time for us Christians to shift our priorities?

Because it should be obvious by now that nothing is going to stop this and a revolution at this time would either only consolidate the government's power even further or result in even greater chaos.

Read Jeremiah 5 lately?

Level the Playing Field
Thanks, Pat, for accurately describing our "competitive" situation in the world today. Let's level the playing field and insist Congress set minimum environmental and work standards for those foreign suppliers who want to compete with American manufacturers, otherwise levy tariffs on them to equalize the prices of foreign vs. domestic manufactures.

In the short term foreign goods and products help American consumers, but in the long term destroy our manufacturing base. We need a "Fairness Doctrine" here, not in talk radio.

"Free" Trade...
I was marinated in the "free-trade" mantra from those early days with National Review, etc. Now you want me to become a protectionist? I'm too old and all I can think is that there better be a smarter answer than that.

Detroit killed Detroit
I'm formerly edna eagle and here's my 2 cents!

Detroit killed it's self!
They didn't look past their own greed and kept making shoddy vehicles nobody wanted. Toyota is the winner along with Honda and Kia.
They made cars that people liked and trusted and they weren't slaves to unions.
Unions and CEO's padded their pockets and killed the American work force and gave it all away...
There's no rationalization to what they've done...it's done and over for the big 3

Romney's gut the union
I can agree with Romney on one point, upper management needs to have their income tied to a multiplier similar to the foreign companies which is about fifty times the least paid worker in the company. This is true with every company that is a stockholder owned. Mr. Romney also should be held to the same standard the next time he raids another company and GUTS it to then resale at a big profit( after destroying as many lives as necessary to get it done).

I disagree with his GUT the workforce and retirees as a solution. Yes if you cut every expense of course, less money will be needed to operate it but the cost in the suffering of the humans involved is too high. I watched four hours of the hearings yesterday and it seems the companies and unions are working very hard to make the costs rival the non-union companies that are enjoying the tax breaks for being in the southern states. Over time the foreign companies will have a few tax breaks go way and then costs will be very similar.

I am always angered by these free market Republicans that refuse to read in the Constitution or accept the fact that Tarriffs were the funding source the founders of our nation intended to fiancé the federal government. Short of devaluing our currency Tarriffs are the only way to level the playing when a foreign company competes using near slave labor wage levels to product products sent into our markets to under price our products. Adam Smith was alive at the same time as George Washington but his so called free market ideas were NOT referenced as the best way for our then young nation to do business with the rest of the world nor were they mentioned in the Constitution or even in The Federalist Papers either.

Says it all for me........
"The Globalists would like to see our middle class destroyed...they don't and never have believed in Free Enterprise or the small business owner or entrepreneur.."

....good insight there.

I voted for YOU, Pat......don't blame me...I've seen this coming for many years now.....I liked your positions on many issues, including active combat troops on the southern border...and helping the U.N. pack up in 2000.....

The Founding Fathers were correct.....a republic is ONLY for a decent and moral people......and we can no longer claim to be that. Our morals are in the national sewer....our guiding principles gone.....

Don't blame me Pat...I voted for YOU.....everytime you ran......but alas, like the days of old....we must give the people what they want.....lmao........Obama?....bwhahhahahhahahahhahhahhah

No help
How about if the inept leaders of the Big 3 tell the UAW that wage concessions and also givebacks by retirees are needed now? If they balk, straight out mention that they will have to liquidate, and there will be nothing for themselves or their retired parents. It's called tough love. And second, the Big 3 require new leadership at lower pay.

GM not innocent
As always, a fascinating column that provokes us to think.

Two issues:

1: American industry works best when labor and management are in balance. The runaway lunacy of the unions in the 70's, with the shift in power to management of the 80's left our corporations in a mess.

2: There is no question that the "Big 3" exploited the globalist economy. Why else would a truck manufactured in the US at great expense be sold for the same price as a truck made in Mexico City?

The American people have been ripped off by their government and greedy corporations.

As has been stated
"Big 3" built vehicles which weren't wanted, and never learned to build ones that were.

I can remember leasing a Taurus in 1994 (bad choice due to its rapid depreciation). I found that NONE of the "Big-3" make non-gas-hog cars in US that comfortably fit my 6'1" frame, even in driving seat. I traded the Taurus for a VW Jetta in Sept 1995, and got:
(*) somewhat larger boot capacity, and better-designed bootlid (I could stuff a larger load into the boot of the Jetta than the Taurus)
(*) almost the same pick-up on a 2-litre 4-banger as on the Taurus' 3.8-litre V6; admittedly, due to the Jetta's manual-shift vs the Taurus automatic
(*) more than double the fuel-economy; the Taurus used 2 tanks (16 gallons) weekly for a Norcross-to-Woodstock commute, Jetta 1 tank (14 gallons)

Also, vehicles made by European (and also some Asian) manufacturers allow front seats to be adjusted to bolt-upright, where NO US-manufactured "Big-3" vehicle does; on long (300+ miles in one direction) drives, that makes a considerable difference!

Foreigners have factories in USA
Have we forgotten about factories in the USA owned by: Toyota, Nissan, Hyundi, Honda, BMW, Mercedes,...? They all are doing well. Is there some reason that escapes us?

Opportunity Knocks
The auto industry has been in trouble since they were established. Remember the '30s? We just didn't know how bad they were until they had to face the Japanese competition. By that time, they were so "stuck" in tradition they had no way to change.

Don't blame the execs. None of them have ever spent a day working on the factory floor. That's where we are losing it. Right where the rubber meets the road.

And don't blame the unions. They were very creative in getting all those wage and benefits. Management allowed them to get those contracts because management never learned how to contol their manufacturing processes. At the shop floor level, unions have always been in contol of the production process and could shut the companies down at will to get what they wanted. Management was helpless.

Manufacturing is a very complex process. The system is too complex for plant managers. Lots goes on a production line that is beyond the abilility of even the line supervisor to know. Things move too fast even at this simplest level of manufacturing.

Unions controlled production to increase their pay through overtime by causing every kind of problem imaginable. They are extremely creative at doing that. They can cause a machine failure while an engineer is standing right in front of them without the engineer knowing what happened.

It's the basic "production system" that was established way back in the beginning that is the real culprit.

Fortunately, there are ways to change that system. There are ways to change the system to give American manufacturers major advantages over their foreign competitors.

It's free enterprise that forces people to be creative and come up with more efficient ways of doing things. It's time the US auto makers get creative. There are solutions waiting for them to discover, right at the fundamental level of the business - right where the rubber meets the road.

Who Killed Detroit
While I agree with that government regulation at home created a competetive advantage to foreign manufacturers, how does one explain the profitability of foreign cars manufactured here in the US?

They get what they deserve...
Has trade comepetion been unfair? Absolutely! But understand this: the automakers and their dealerships, and this includes Harley-Davidson have brought much of the decline on themselves. I owned a Chrysler van and had nothing but mechanical problems with it. The dealer "repaired" the van with defective used parts which left my wife stranded at night on the road in the middle of a god-forsaken South Carolina swamp. Letters and Phone calls to the service department were of course ignored. I own a H-D Sportster that won't start in cool weather much less cold and the transmission won't stay in gear. Dealership Service? Multiple expensive trips to Stone Mountian H-D have yet to correct the problems. Buy American? NEVER! I own a BMW K1100RS and a Jaguar XJS that work flawlessly and will NEVER buy another American vehicle product. They don't deserve loyalty or a bail out. Let them eat cake and fly in their corporate jets.

Years ago
I live near the cesspool called Detroit and I am apathetic to all of them.

I worked for a company that supplied them fasteners (production control) and I worked at a steel processor that was a union shop (as a shift supervisor). My experience with union employees on the whole has been very negative. It was all attitude all the time, there were a handful of exceptional employees, but at the end of the day it was worse than dealing with first graders.

The Big 3 did this to themselves, as a supplier, years before concessions were made by the unions suppliers, stopped matching 401k contributions, started charging more and more for health care, started cutting jobs, and doubling up work to be able to supply the car companies. And Union workers gleefully encouraged this because it benefitted them, and to hell with the working stiffs outside the car companies. Hey, as long as they got their bonuses all was good.


Years ago continued
The car companies took discounts at their leisure. The one company I worked at, GM called at year end and said, "Hey, we didn't make what we thought we would, so we are taking 10% off our bill ($45 million tab), and if you don't agree we will take our business elsewhere". They showed up in congress with the exact same arrogance.

Management and labor don't work together. Labor does everything in their power to impede, and basically play childish games to get out of work. Well it finally caught up with them. I hope the big 3 declare bankruptcy, and dump the unions.

You guys want a job, you will work like every one else. You don't show for work cause you don't feel good, and can't call before the start of your shift, then go find a new job. You'll get one week of vacation for the first 2 years, and 2 weeks until year number 10. Sick days are unpaid, since you work harder to get out of work than if you just did the job. You spill something at your work station clean it up, housekeeping isn't coming. Your on the docks doing nothing and a truck pulls in, unload it, it's your job, I don't care if it isn't the exact dock assigned to you that day.

You can't pay people more than $15.00/hr. for work that basically requires them to stay awake for 8 hours, and let them run the show.

Management welcome to the world the rest of us have to deal with. You need to take some big pay cuts yourselves. If you are going to say that you can't live on $400,000 / year. Then you go live somewhere else on this planet and make more. Plus it's now time to act like management. The union threatens strike, let them strike, shut it down, and see how long they can live on all the money they saved and wisely invested.

The "Manufacturing Class" Nonsense
Comrades, we have nothing to lose but our economic illiteracy. The manufacturing class? Please, spare me the silliness. The should-be-bankrupt Detroit workers--are you a "worker" if you get paid even when not producing?!--make more money than nurses and teachers. They retire earlier than the typical American and with much more generous pensions. Tariffs caused our prosperity? Silly me, and all along I bought that stuff Adam Smith peddled about specialization and increased productivity explaining the wealth of nations. The auto workers' productivity does not justify their compensation. The companies are going bankrupt. Here endeth the economics lesson for first graders.

Be careful!
Be careful Pat.

The readers here are going to turn on you.

You aren't spewing simple nonsense about how greedy unions destroyed America.

To pass muster here you must claim that Detroit is evil and must be destroyed. You must claim that the UAW pays people 50 dollars an hour to sweep floors, (A complete myth, but who cares?
) and that the union responsible for the 40 hour work week, and the very concept of weekends is the reason the American auto industry collapsed. You must claim that men like my 90 year old grandfather who drove truck for Ford for 35 years (with a brief pause to help fight World War II) are now responsible for the destruction of Detroit because he dares ask for his UAW pension to continue. Forget the fact that he was able to purchase a house, send his sons to college to become productive members of society, and his grandson is now in year 16 of a (hopefully) 20+ year Navy career. You must claim Union men are evil, greedy, and bad for America.

Otherwise you might not get a good rating.

Pat makes
a lot of good points, but competition is what drives quality. If we had built a wall around the country in the 1950's, we'd still be driving crap cars and watching TV's with 15 knobs for tuning. Yes, American car quality is nearly as good as foreign now, but the big three was dragged there kicking and screaming. Unions were absolutely necessary during the first half of the 20th century, but they have outlived their usefulness. When the the Detroit car companies have to factor in about $2,000 per car to cover union wages, benefits and pensions, there is no way they can compete with American made foreign brands where the good ol' boys working there think they died and went to heaven at half the wages of their Detroit brethren. That's just the facts, no matter how much Buchanan and others whine about it.

Perpetual bailouts
I suppose no one wants the auto industry to collapse. But they have already collapsed simply because they are not viable without external help. Government, management and labor all had a hand in the collapse. We could discuss that all day and solve nothing.

The public isn't interested in bailing out the auto industry with their own money, as indicated by the stock price. Using tax dollars threatens the foundations of our government. Those willing to use tax dollars either don't understand the dangers or have ulterior motives. Even if tax dollars were used, it's a temporary reprieve, not a fix. The auto industry will never be viable until they undergo significant cost reductions. Can you envision Pelosi, Reid, and Obama demanding meaningful givebacks from the UAW? Without those givebacks the auto industry will be back time and again for more bailouts.

Bankruptcy is probably the only way to establish the necessary restructuring that will give them a chance of survival. Government loans, gifts etc will do far more damage than just throwing good money down the drain. It will further erode our Capitalist system and it will weaken our dollar. We all know the government doesn't have any money to give them without borrowing it themselves or simply printing more money, thus devaluing the dollar even further.

We killed the auto industry
We killed the auto industry - just like we have killed our other industries. Americans have been too successful in the past and we took our eye off the ball. Once the international doors of competition were opened, we kept competing against ourselves, not recognizing the fact that we were now someone else's target, and that we needed to compete worldwide.

Segments within our society that have been mostly to blame for our failure have included our politicians (especially Congress), our unions (which have an adversarial and destructive relationship with business and are extremely socialistic to boot), our schools and universities (increasingly government controlled and NOT seeking the best education for our children), and the unquestioning and undisciplined American voter.

Interestingly, the election of Barack Obama as POTUS has 1) shown us how racial some segments of our culture are, 2) how absolutely dumb our voters are in matters of American history, American government, economy, politics, and law, 3) how socialist we have become because of our short term thinking and lack of maturity, and 4) how absolutely divided we are as a country and as a people.

And so, even if we get whacked again by the Islamists, or suffer another depression because of our own stupidity, we need to start working on solving our problems at home and clean out our various governments, which, by the way, think we work to support them.

Regarding Asian competition, I think we should listen to our Asian competitors and then read 1) The Art of War, by Sun-tzu, 2) The Asian Mind Game, by Chin-ning Chu, 3) The 36 Stratagems for Business, by Harro von Senger. The Asian countries are very serious in their efforts to survive and to thrive, and they will be successful.

If we don’t get our mojo back, we can say bye-bye to America as a nation.

MOTOWN WANTED MO MONEY
31,000 DOLLARS FOR A YUKON!???AND GAS WENT TO ALMOST 5.00 A GALLON!? AND THE LEE IACOKAA,SMART DUDES RETIRED!ITS NOT THE GOVS FAULT PAT!

The biggest morons ever born…
... Pelosi and the rest pay attention; no money for Detroit! Just like the banks that have no plans to lend Main Street or Side Street people anything and are now very apparent to most but the hill. What is going on with foreclosures is a hoot; the new estimate for the home is used. The new estimate is lower than what was paid for the home so the owner has to come up with the difference in cash first. Then the bank will talk to you. Is this what you had in your mind when you said yes to the bailout, as people are still losing their homes. Not the same you say, Yes it is as the majority of the people said do not bail them out and now you are surprised at what is being done with the bailout money as it is not what you expected / signed on for. This entire situation is happening by design and it is heading to One World Bank and One World Currency that is however another story. Greed, Overpricing and producing just plain junk has nothing to do with the problems now facing the auto industry it also will do nothing to help out Side Street people ….


Correct TS…. Plain Morons!


Note to the Morons: People that are not working cannot buy let alone pay for anything. It takes workers earning capital to buy products or pay for a mortgage…... New word for today is: JOBS

They killed themselves!!!
They decided not to listen and make cars that ate gas so they killed themselves and that is a fact.

Truth but not the whole truth
Pat is right - government mandates, rules, taxes lawsuits trade policies all helped kill the auto industry which is indeed now killed no matter what happens with the bailout.

Only thats not the whole story - dealers, unions, executives, white collar rank and file, bankers, bond holders, retirees all been spending the same profits for years even when there were no profits. Put them in front of King Solomon and they would all rather see the baby cut up than for the other guy to get it.

There are no good guys here and no solutions.

Pat is Uninformed
Foreign manufacturers are subject to the same CAFE standards as US Manufacturers.

Japanese and German manufacturing plants are more modern, efficient and clean than US plants. I know, I have visited them. Maybe what Pat says was true - 50 years ago.

BMW and Mercedes make cars here in the US. Why? lower labor costs then Germany (un-unionized, of course).Again, Pat is describing a situation which MAY have existed 50 years ago.

There are 17 foreign-owned auto manufacturing plants in the US. They employ 90,000+ Americans. They use the same supply chain the US manufacturers use (65%+ local content). There will still be a manufacturing base if the Detroit Three shut down.

Oh, and Lockheed might take issue with your assertion there is only one US airplane manufacturer.

All you have to do is look at history:
Steel Industry - destroyed by Unions
Shipbuilding Industry - destroyed by unions
Textile industry - destroyed by unions
Car industry - destroyed by unions

Unions only represent 13% of the US workforce - half of them Government workers. It used to be illegal for a government employee to belong to a union - that's why Civil Service was established. Do you want to know why schools are failing? Why government is inefficient (go to the DMV lately?)? Why postal rates keep going up?

Look for the Union Label.

Pat Buchanan is the Oracle
As usual Pat is correct. It is refreshing to hear the Old Right at its finest. Unfortunately, for too long the neo-conservatives have been dominating the Republican party. Their only agenda lies in the Middle East.

Pat on the other hand puts Ameica First. He is the second coming of another icon who put the U.S. first (Charles Lindbergh). I say this in a positive sense; the real Charles Lindbergh before he was slandered and defamed.

Pat has always had the American working man and woman foremost in his thoughts. On the contrary the new-Right sees the foreign bankers as their champions.

Can't-won't go on forever
I don't think the arrogant gov't know-it-alls will ever acknowledge that they are 90% of the problem until the country hits rock bottom, like a drunk saying he's had enough after waking up in the gutter.

What that equivalent for a federal government is, I don't know. I only that the proposals I've been hearing to "fix" things won't. They're proposing more drinking, or switching from scotch to beer.

About 2/3 Right
The other 1/3 concerns the Honda & Toyota auto plants built in America.

Those builders operate under all the same rules, regulations, etc., as America's Big Three. The difference?

It is substantial! H&T auto workers earn about $45 an hr while the union-controlled 3 earn about $78 an hr. H&T workers pay a "payee-share" of their health costs while B-3 pay nothing.

UAW & Big 3 workers have been asking for the moon and stars and have pretty much got all they asked for. The Big-3, in order to sustain the "life style to which they have become accustomed" concentrated on building big-profit road hogs. Now, B-3 - UAW - auto workers are "Lost in Space" and begging "the people" to save them so they can continue on the same self-destructive road.

At least so far, American Honda & Toyota are NOT seeking a bailout.

Highlander Juan & Raoul
Excellent post, by both of you. Raoul I would say that destroyed by the Unions is an oversimplification, but fairly accurate to all the industries noted. The idea of the Unions initially was excellent, however, a majority of the 13% are no longer truly skilled labor, and their compensations are far too high for businesses to remain competitive with unskilled uneducated laborers. I will say the skilled trades, electrical, heating and cooling, carpenters, any of the individuals, who must go and earn a trade certification, are deserving of a higher compensation, but that is where it ends.

Companies, must have the flexibility to fill spots quickly and not based on a bank of individuals sitting around and hoping that someone doesn't call in sick, thus affecting their game of solitaire while they sit for 8 hours.

There is an article today in the Detroit Free Press: This is from a news article in the free press today. The link is below. This is ridiculous!


When UAW autoworkers are laid off, they receive a combination of unemployment benefits and supplemental pay from their employer for 48 weeks. If they remain laid off beyond that, they move to the jobs bank, where the company provides about 95% of their pay and benefits. Until the most recent contract, people could remain in the jobs bank for years.


One word answer
to the question: UNIONS.

redistribution of payscale and work-
I have read the postings today and only two from any one who has a real connection with working in manufacturing. Some of the notes could have been written in the 70's (Detroit makes junk).
Facts that should repeated:
1. Detroit makes very good cars. Consumer Reports ranks US made cars right in there with the Japan. The myth persists.
2. Detroit cars fuel efficient cars.
3. Unions and management do not get along and act just the way many of you posters do on the blog. Snipe, pout, and slander.
4. Management's response to the 70-80's was to adopt the Toyota style of production to their product. This approach was introduced in some products made here - but - some management decided to not introduce new and better ways of producing products here, sabotaging their own plants, thereby making the move offshore more attractive. Detroit did not choose this path. It set up entire facilities to other countries to serve that market. They are doing OK.
5 And last - the management schools (MBA) in this country have taught the Service Econonmy model for many years. The consequences we see today. There is a class system in America. In the service sector banking and finance, law, medicine - The top 20% in income are about 5% of the people.
A huge majority of people are at or below 60k per yr. 65-70%. These people move or distribute something or manage others that do. That leaves 20-25% at or below living wage. These are the ones that actually make something. The economic world is upside down.
I dont know about redistributing the wealth but a redistribution of pay scale and work values would be a good thing.
Lane Hiers

Reduce it down to the basics
Working man
Management & Overhead
Government
Materiels

All 4 are included in the cost of an automobile.

Anyone want to find out which of the 4 costs most of all?

Everyone of the globalists blame the cost on labor, after they raise taxes and retrictions that increase the cost.

The collusion between management and government to remove manufacturing through global trade deals is for one thing only.
To bring down the American Middle Class working man and woman to the level of Mexico.

Remove all government restriction and taxes, corporate over pay, and auto's would be affordable once again.

Nothing has changed in the basics from the time Henry Ford paid workers enough to afford the products they made.

The American worker pays half his wages to support one government or another.
From city to county, from state to federal.
He cannot pay these costs and compete with Mexican or Chinese workers.
This is what globalists are doing to the American workers

Allencharlesreport on level field
For years now - almost from the first day of the "free market" (I'm a GOP) - we have heard about "trade imbalance". What the heck does that mean?

Well, let's go back a FEW years. There was something called the barter system. Basically, goods and services were exchanged for goods and services.

EXAMPLE: I need my garden plowed for spring planting, but I don't have the equipment or expertise to do the plowing. I do, however, have a good supply of canned food from last fall's harvest. My neighbor has the equipment and knowledge for plowing, but his cupboard is running low. We discuss the situation, make an agreement, and exchange goods and services. The trade is acceptable to all concerned and the exchange is balanced.

Now, let's say my neighbor agrees to plow for 1/2 of the canned goods now in my pantry and 1/2 of the fall crop. That might be OIK for now, but it will not take many seasons until he is making more from the deal than I can sustain. The result is a trade-imbalance.

Pretty simplistic - but maybe even the dimmie/libs who visit this site can understand.

If we are importing and buying more goods from other countries than they are buying from the US, that is a trade imbalance. If the exchange is credit-card based, we incur financial deficit.

Now, look what we pay - and actual costs - for that exchange of goods. The one area where we somewhat break even is the bread basket.

For those who complain about protectionism, keep in mind that WE pay a traiff to many countries to export our goods to them, but they pay nothing for our imports.

I have decided that protectionism is not a bad thing!

Ford's Outreach To Homsexuals
To: Pat Buchanan - When is someone going to answer who and why in the Ford family decided to start spending Ford purchsers' dollars supporting the "homosexual community"? The American Family Association is to be commended for initiating a boycott of Ford and its products. Our family, Ford users, joined in as our religious values were challenged by Ford, and we are still boycotting them. This foolish gesture by Ford Motor Co. was even more stupid than using the corporate jet to ferry Mr. Mullaly down to D.C.

Leonard
My experience with American automobiles is opposite to your experiences.

I owned several very old used cars when I was a poor, young sailor: two Mercs, one Ford, one Chevy. In 1968, I purchased a badly used 1951 Caddy and a 1956 Chevy, for basic transportation in Panama. All ran very well and were still running when I sold them. The sailor from whom I purchased the 1951 Caddy estimated it had 300K or 400K miles on it -- the odometer's numbers had faded in the hot Panama sun and were no longer readable. It wasn't much to look at, but it started every time. It was still running when I transferred in 1971 as was the old 1956 Chevy.

New cars: I have had four(4) pickups -- 2 Fords, F-100 and F-150, and 2 Chevy Z-71's, a Dodge station wagon and a Dodge camper. Great vehicles. My wife owned a Merc, a Camero and now owns a Corvette. No problems with any of the three cars.

I bought a new Toyota around 1972. It lasted three years to the month. Then, the inside door panels came loose, the dash board came loose and it was impossible to keep the wheels aligned. The car had less than 40K miles on it when I gave it away. I know a grunch of sailors who have had problems with foreign cars. I'll never buy another foreign car, unless I end up overseas at some point in the future.

I have never had a problem obtaining good service from an American automobile dealer.

Once again folks
Tariffs were taxes on foreign made goods.
Tariffs benefitted the rich men who owned manufacturing.

The taxes the Government once recieved from tariffs are STILL BE PAID.
This money has been shifted from its source is all.
The tax money once paid by foreign manufacturing is now paid by the American Workers.

And the America worker gets blamed for all the high costs of manufacturing in America.

And the "free" traders are the ones are to blame for 80 percent or so of the high costs of manufacturing.

Unions are also run by "management" and drive up the cost in todays "educated" (dumbest society ever seen in America).
The greed of union bosses is NO different than the greed of management and government.
GREED is the problem, and it is not limited to the working class.

The greedy government is the problem MOST of all


RJBJr on Opportunity
A little historical correction about the foreign car invasion!

Following WWII all our cars were basically American-made. Oh, there was a trickle of British-made, but that's it.

As part of the European reconstruction, a few EU cars (primarily the Citroesn and VW Beetle) were imported beginning around 1949. Whooaaa! The VW set the US on its ear.

A few Japanese cars were brought in by military officers returning stateside - but they were deemed to shoddy and too unsafe for import.

So, Toyota, et.al, began manufactoring two versions. One included US required safety features (shatter-proof windshields, etc) and the other for home use.

"Jap Junk" was not approved for import until the early to mid-60's - and the ONLY thing they had going was good gas mileage during an oil shortage.

I know, I was there.


Was it the Joker ... or maybe Batman?
I think we all know by now how Detroit-Gotham's demise came about. How many more pundit-illuminati are going to tell us their version of the plot? Didn't read the book? Just see the movie. You can watch it on your gas-guzzler's TV screen.

Seadog, I agree
I have owned American made vehicles all my life except once when I bought a Toyota in the 80's.

Americans have produced the best engines and vehicles made, bar none.
The open society allows foreigners to advertise their products and hire agents to promote them as better than American made.

The Model T Ford got 100,000 miles when the Japanese/Chinese/Koreans were still riding bicycles.

The Chrysler 318 and the General Motors 287 Ford 300 c.i. engines are still the best ever made for dependability.
And best of all; parts were cheap


Simple Solution
If the Big 3 want to survive, they must make a product that can compete with the cars of Toyota and Honda. The Ford F-150 is the number one selling truck in the world and has been the most popular truck for a reason - it is built well and reliable. Ford builds great trucks which is why I drive a Ford Explorer SportTrac.

However, I would never purchase another GM product for as long as I live. I have had two GM vehicles fall to pieces on me. One of the GM products had the distinct "honor" of having the lowest resale value in its class.

Why should Americans want to buy an American made product if it is poorly made or inferior in quality to a foreign product? What is patriotic about being forced to buy garbage? The Anti-Globalists whine about foreign competition, demanding high tariffs to "protect" the American consumer from better made products.

Ironic considering we once mocked East Germany and the USSR for their lack of consumer choices.

All Detroit need do is make the better product....something that will never happen through bailouts or continuing with current UAW contracts.

The Unions do share in the blame in creating the current situation. They have negotiated financially untenable situation for the American Auto Industry. If the UAW wants the Big 3 to survive, they must allow the companies to become solvent.

My simple solution would be to force the Big 3 to file for Chapter 11 and then immediately sell the companies to the employees, making them shareholders interested in the profitability of the companies. That coupled with more efficient manufactoring processes would make them competitive.

Toyota tale
My wife (girlfriend at the time) bought a new 1983 Corolla. In 14, yes 14 years I don't think she spent more than $1000.00 on other than routine maintenance. Car still ran great at the end but had to get rid of it because the body was rusted badly. Even so, no Detroit garbage slapped together by overpaid, over perked, over pensioned, semi trained Neanderthal Detroit knuckle draggers disguised as humanoids could match that Corolla. No Mr. Buchanan, it was the Commie, thug infested unions that are the major reason Detroit is finished.

Talent Scout
American automobiles end up sucking hind tit overseas too because of taxes and such.

My wife took her new 1981 Gran Marquis to Spain when I transferred there. Her brother, who had always owned top-of-the line European cars fell in love with the Merc when he drove it on the, very steep, winding roads around his ranch. He said he had never seen a car that drove so well or rode so smoothly. He wanted one.

It happened that I had seen an Ford Dealer's advert in a civilian-published newspaper, The Jack Tar, distributed at Naval Station Rota that carried a picure of the exact same car as that of my wife. I told my brother-in-law that I didn't know if they actually had the car on the showroom floor, or if it was just a picture of a car that could be ordered from the US.

My brother-in-law charged down to Rota from his ranch -- a couple of hundred miles -- with checkbook in hand! They actually did have the car on the floor, priced -- best I recall -- around 20K -- about 5K more than my wife had paid for hers. He was ready to buy and drive it off until the taxes, etc., were added. Big surprise! The car was then about 38K. He did not buy the car.

I don't know if this is still true since Spain joined the European Common Market, but sailors have told me that the situation was essentially the same in all European countries.

Buchanan's ability...
...lies in taking some truth and torturing it until the truth become unrecognizable.

Let's be honest
The only reason we have Unions originally is bad management. Now the Union is just as bad as the greedy, incompetent Auto company management. Yes, the Gov't has certainly done damage, but protectionism is not the answer. Last time I checked, Toyota and Honda both build cars in the US. So, it can't be "the american worker'. It can't be just 'regulation' even though they are ridiculous, because Toyota and Honda both build cars here. Therefor, it must be the incompetent management (as evidenced by them each flying private jets to the meeting) and greedy clueless Unions who believe we should pay $73 / hour for an autoworker. Until both of these groups are held accountable for their incompetence, we should not give them a dime.

MOTOWN PUT OUT BAD RECORDS!
UNIONS SING THE BLUES!BBKING AND LEE IOAKAKA,HAVE LEFT THE BUILDING!

For R.T. @ 11:55
I can remember in 2002 when Ford and GM had signed about "diversity" to outreach to homosexuals; one Sunday that year, the LEFI's Detroit-area preacher pointed out in his sermon "they signed their death-warrants this way".

talent scout @ 12:18 wrote "The Chrysler 318, General Motors 287 and Ford 300 c.i. engines are still the best ever made for dependability."

I can remember my dad buying in 1976 from a PA dealer a Plymouth Fury with a 318 (included catalytic converter and "lean-burn" emission controls)--and it was a total disaster even prior to June 1977 (when it was driven in a contorted road-trip to Calgary). After it reached Calgary:
(*) it took a half-hour to warm up this engine, even after a block-heater had been plugged in
(*) the original engine siezed in 1979, and had to be replaced--the only good thing I can say about the replacement engine was that it didn't sieze until 1986 (when it was sold to a small, unadvertised MacLeod Trail dealer--who would only give us C$100 claiming "burnt valve").

So, your statement held true of 318's built prior to 1974 in US (and possibly a long time afterwards in Canada, where cat-converters were not mandatory prior to 1988), but certainly not afterwards.

Pat is half-way, try a Third Way
Are we better off now that these things are made by foreigners? Yes. They are made cheaper and shipped here. We do not make products to create jobs; we make products to make profits to buy other products.

Are we better off now that we have ceased to be self-sufficient? We are self sufficient. We just buy things for cheap through trade overseas. That enables our country to develop even cooler things. If we need to build things here, we can quickly ramp it up, and it would be done for the demand of it as opposed to the mandate Pat wants the gov’t to lay on us all to keep skills in this country. Folks here need to hone new, better skills as opposed to atrophy on an assembly line.

Are we better off now that the real wages of our workers and median income of our families no longer grow as they once did? I do not set my brother's wages, Pat. And you don't either. I live and work in a free economy where the individual sets their own wage by their talent, educational achievements and earned credentials. We chose to earn what we earn. You want to make more, learn a skill in demand. You know, like out-of-touch pundit. I hear Town Hall will buy your column.

Are we better off now that manufacturing, for the first time in U.S. history, employs fewer workers than government? It's not that the manufacturing industry is improperly shrinking in jobs as much as the government is improperly growing in size. Government is a problem. Pat did a great job pointing that out in the beginning. Simply removing the income tax burden from companies would be the prudent move if industry complies as well as they have to OSHA, environmental and worker rights laws.

Seek a third way to resolve this issue. Structure the auto resolution to they go through CH 11 bankruptcy, and then allow $25B previously allotted them for the environmental hoo-hah as a guaranteed loan after they restructure. Help facilitate their salvation, but force them to take their medicine.

GIVE AUTO INDUSTRY TO UNIONS
GIVE THE AUTO INDUSTRY TO ITS UNIONS TO FIX.WHATEVER THE AMOUNT THE BIG THREE IS LOOKING FOR HAVE THEM GET IT FROM THE AUTO WORKERS UNION. THEY WILL ALL BE WORKING FOR THEIR SURVIVAL, IF IT FAIL THE UNION CONTACTS WOULD BE DISOLVED AS FEDERAL PARTNERSHIPS OF A CONTROLLED TIME WITH THE AUTO INDUSTRY WOULD PROVIDE AN ECONOMIC BOOST TO THE AUTO INDUSTRY.
THE LARGEST PROBLEM WITH THE AUTO INDUSTRY IS THE UNION CONTACTS THE AUTO MAKERS ARE HAVING TO HONOR. MAKE THE UAW PARTNERS WITH THE AUTO
MAKERS AND WHEN THE NEWLY FORMED EVER FIND ITSELF IN NEED OF FEDERAL ASSISTANCE ALL UNION CONTACTS WOULD BECOME VOID.

svpallava writes:
So, your statement held true of 318's built prior to 1974 in US (and possibly a long time afterwards in Canada, where cat-converters were not mandatory prior to 1988), but certainly not afterwards.
=====================================
Government mandated
Its what I am talking about where the problem in Detroit and all across the country is coming from.

The government IS THE PROBLEM, not unions or labor.

There is NO Union in America that has the benefits of GOVERNMENT workers.
They are the ones driving up all the costs today as we support almost 23 million government workers.

For FairnessMan @ 12:37
I've heard that Indian-American commonest lifestyle referred by "CCM" for "Corolla, Camry, minivan". Reason that Indian-Americans like Corollas is because their engines are rugged and extremely abuse-tolerant.

Only Corolla I ever drove (because I happened to to "way outside box" and buy a VW) was a Geo Prizm which I had rented at Detroit Airport for a drive to Ayr (near exit/km #268 on Hwy-401); like my Jetta, it was comfortable (though front seats only) for my frame and could adjust the seat bolt-upright.

I have never seen a US-designed 4-cylinder car with seats that are at all comfortable for me spacewise.

You are PAYING FOR PROTECTION
ALREADY
==================================================

Russ Location: AZ
writes:
- 1:02 PM EST
Let's be honest
The only reason we have Unions originally is bad management. Now the Union is just as bad as the greedy, incompetent Auto company management. Yes, the Gov't has certainly done damage, but protectionism is not the answer.
==================================================


If protectionism is not the answer, then why do you support it?
YOU and me are both paying for protection TODAY.
Just called a different name is all, and suckers all buy into the idea of paying higher taxes is better than foreigners paying tariffs.

Are we now a nation of idiots?
We are paying more than than ever before for protection.
The foreigners do not pay what we pay is all, and we(public) stupidly think otherwise.

Tariffs are now paid by US, not the foreigners.
What is it about a trade deficit people cannot understand?

Take away all the government restrictions and taxes on American Manufacturing and we can get competitive once again with anyone.

You are paying for tariffs RIGHT NOW, just called a different name is all, but is still taxes.

What UNION is more over paid and has more benefits than a US Government worker?
And what do they produce?

Reply to #17 re: Ford boycott
We also joined the AFA boycott. We "advertised" Ford's foolishness far and wide. My e-mails multiplied. Ford finally "caved". I don't believe we will ever buy another Ford product
because of their diversion from making autos into the world of "gays" and liberalism.

Conditioned to hate unions
All the while they want more and more of it from government.

Madness is in the land.
We have close to 23 million union workers in the largest union in the world today.
The US Federal, State, County and City Governments.

They have the very best benefits of any union in the world.

svpallava, concerning the 318 Chrysler Engine, I had two and never had a problem, even with the catalytic converter.
But I do know many did, not the engines fault though.

The engine itself is one of the best ever

Giving a Free Pass
Buchanan, you give a free pass to management that has mismanaged the auto industry for 50 years. Japanese manufacturing was a joke in 1950. German manufacturing had to be reconstructed from ashes. Domestic automobile production was king and labor contracts that should have been rejected were accepted because there was no competition. Not only did management “give away the store” in those labor contracts, they didn’t demand that labor do a credible job for the excess wage it was receiving. Poor quality, overpriced product is management's fault, pure and simple. They can recover only in a bankruptcy court that will bring new management to the table as they cancel stupid UAW contracts.

Detroit not killed, but is mostly dead
Pat, so if the US auto industry has been killed, then why the heck are we even talking about bankruptcy or bailout?

Although I agree that government meddling over the decades has contributed to decline of Detroit, I think you're way too lenient with regards to management and the UAW.

J. Howard...
I was going to comment, but I think you said it for me.

We hear a need for
Separation of Church and State a lot today when we do not even have a problem in that area.

Here is where the problem is:
We need a separation of government and business like it used to be when America was the land of the free, and we really had free trade.

Instead of the Marxism of today in combining Government and Business in partnership

Good point - but what's the solution?
Let engineers with new ideas rebuild this industry.
If govt created this inefficient monstrosity, then govt bailing it out only makes it worse.
The solution is to return to the basic Republican principle of limited government intervention.

Little sympathy when...
the Big 3 CEOs learjetted their way to DC to beg for government handouts. Why didn't they just carpool in their most fuel efficient car from Detroit to DC? And I'm sure they stayed in swanky hotels and ate well.

Perfect fix with free trade included...
In a free society, all are equal under the eyes of the law. So here's what I propose. Pass a law stating that no product can be sold in America unless every part of the supply chain has met the requirements placed on domestic companies.

For talent scout @ 14:00
The idea of "separation of church and state" was actually that the STATE (government) should not interfere in the matters of the state. Actually, there IS a problem with that today (somewhat contrary to your assertion) in that the state violates this separation--by such actions for example as removal of tax-exemptions from a church organisation for endorsing a candidate.

I agree
svpallava Location: MD
Reply # 1
Date: Nov 21, 2008 - 2:27 PM EST
Subject: For talent scout @ 14:00
The idea of "separation of church and state" was actually that the STATE (government) should not interfere in the matters of the state. Actually, there IS a problem with that today (somewhat contrary to your assertion) in that the state violates this separation--by such actions for example as removal of tax-exemptions from a church organisation for endorsing a candidate.
===============================================

With the context in the way you bring up.
I was not trying to define this issue down to any other angle than what I said.
Separation

We need to get government out of business like it used to be

AMEN BROTHER!
Right on the money Buchanan

The Factors
Are mostly hit on by Pat. As it stands, just having to deal with taxes alone, makes up 40% of what a business spends its money on. This isn't just the tax itself, its all the accountants that need to be hired to keep track of it all and all of the lawyers that are needed to understand the 50,000 page tax code and deal with the inevitable IRS suits because complying with all of that is impossible. Then there's the annual IRS audits to determine if the tax code is fully followed, thus necessitating even more resources to go into the payment of tax. Labor makes up roughly 20% of a manufacturing cost, UAW shops are about 25%. Compensation for executives holds under 1%. Regulation compliance at 20%. The rest goes into utilities and other overhead costs.

Eliminating regulations and eliminating income and payroll taxes will cut nearly 60% off the cost of doing business, this includes manufacturing cars. Of course, many Government benefits will have to be sliced, but since well paying jobs would be plentiful when companies aren't wasting the majority of their time complying with tax codes and regulations, we won't need all those unemployment, social security and welfare benefits.

Unions
Actually, unions were never a good idea.

BUCHANAN SHOULD WRITE A BOOK ON AUTO IND

Some of Buchanan's ideas and facts are new to me. I believe that Buchanan could write one heck of a book on the Detroit Auto Industry that would be another New York Times bestseller.

The success of the Detroit Car Industry was once the cornerstone of America's greatness. If you thought silicon valley was something........
nothing really ever came close to the genius and creativity of Henry Ford and his idea that all Americans could afford to buy his cars...this gave birth to the assembly line and mass production which fit right in with the industrial revolution and morphed into a kinda manufacturing revolution.

Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, the Wright Brothers, Harvey Firestone, and the list goes on of inventors, thinkers, entreprenuers, small businesses that became Giants of their time. From Michigan, Ohio to Pennsylvania and Indiana..the now Rust Belt was once the flouirishing Renaissance of the American Dream and Psyche.

Whats left of these Giants are mere remnants of Americas greatness as excess lent to Greed and Robber Baron Globalists like Rockefeller,Buffet and Gates have turned their backs on the folks that brung them. Instead, they have gone Global where they do not have to answer to the likes of Anti-Trust lawsuits...they set up Protectionist Cartels for their industry to micro-manage everything and to stifle and insure that American Free Enterprise will die on the Ash heep of Planned Trade and an unequal playing field that will forever block American Companies of ever competing in the Globalist NEW WORLD ECONOMIC ORDER. Why, just today I have read that India and China will be the new World leaders by 2025...and its even celebrated in thier CFR FOREIGN AFFAIRS MAGAZINE....

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070301faessay86203/daniel-w -drezner/the-new-new-world-order.html

Pat.....pull your head out.
Pat....Pat..Pat.

#1 Lack of Creative Destruction.
#2 Bowing down to big labor with unsustainable giveaways.
#3 Building and promoting that which brings the biggest returns (trucks, suv's)
#4 Lack of creativity in the Auto industry UNTIL the Beetle and Japanese imports broke into the market.
#5 Slave to the stock analysts and Wall St.
#6 Accepting Mediocrity in quality and design.

Pretty simple....build a better product...the world will beat a path to your door. Enter the Asians with a superior philosophy. Mark that....superior philosophy.

Most US companies are in business to maximize profits......not to maximize creativity. Creativity costs money. Thats why for the last 10 years it has been easier to re-badge trucks and SUVs as something else, and outsource cars.

I agree with the fact that the Asian markets are not open to US manufacturing........but then again, they are cramped for space, population density is high.......we going to ship them SUVs? Trucks? Cars are the Asians specialty......they want what the US builds?? Please.

Quite simply, the Marginal 3 are victims of all of the above.

You can't be a nimble, quick changing car company when you are beholden to Wall St. and the Unions.

Finally, don't forget what has caused this slow decline to accelerate. Liberal interdiction.
#1 Restricting the production of the US' own energy sources. Causing unprecedented gas prices
#2 Allowing the credit crises to happen, restricting credit to the market..


Without competition we would still be picking out what color fin we want on our 2009 Plymouth Fury.........

One good line by Pat
that the "intellectual elite" produces mostly methane. But Pat, you're part of that elite too.

Also, you repeatedly cite Japan as beating US, but their economy is more in the dumper than ours.

Greed, Neanderthals & Common Sense
One thing of which I am certain: Neither Madison nor Adam Smith ever envisioned a band of angels coming down to steer the political economy on earth.

Do I consider that the country would be better off dealing with its own greedy robber barons & union stooges rather than shipping its manufacturing industry off-shore, where slave-wages are the norm & managers face the axe, literally, if they mis-step? You betcha!
Better a greedy, filthy-rich Henry Ford selling me junk than a fascist oligarchy outside the reach of American law & ready to pounce without mercy once we have disarmed ourselves.

Better also to have knuckle-draggers gainfully employed rather than hanging on my street corner. His kid just might change the world for the better.

There's enough blame to go around. Time to deal with the residue. But in fact, every country in the world protects its markets -- esp from US producers. Who decided we have to be the world's door-mat? The only foreign goods that should be allowed into the US are those manufactured under conditions required by law in the US -- labor, product safety, etc -- and then only if the trade agreement is reciprocal in every respect. American industry could readily shift to the manufacture, for example, of small cars to fill the Chinese streets IF they had access to that market.

Stupidity and Arrogance ....
Stupidity and Arrogance! That is what killed Detroit / the American auto makers! It does not take a genius to determine that! Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut, if he keeps looking! Ha! The American auto makers stopped looking or never looked - I am not sure which!

Foreign transplants
In reply to #26, the foreign transplants, Toyota, Nissan,etc are not doing well at all. Toyota has cut production back by about half and in some cases shuting down shifts and is starting to lay off temps. Their July/Sept. net profits plunged 69% and they are assessing Jan. production output. It's not just domestics who are not selling. None of them are! Of course, prior to the economic tsunami, they were doing very well, profit-wise. Keep in mind that they were granted hugh tax incentives by the southern states that their factories are located in. More importantly, they have very little legacy costs. Less than 300 retirees. Their health care cost per employee per year is $11,000.00. Pretty close the the Big Three's. Some day the foreigns will have huge legacy costs to shoulder. Then what?
I would also like to comment on unions. Some say that they served their purpose and now should go away. Well, over these many years unions were responsible for decent wages, a forty-hour work-week and the assurance of safe working conditions. It enabled millions of folks to become part of the middle-class, buy homes and send their children to college. Perhaps some of the posters here have parents or grandparents who worked in the factories. About 8% of the American workforce is now union. So, some of you may get your wish. I just feel it's not the best thing to happen to our country. While I in no way feel that union leaders are without sin, they ain't, but they are not the sole reason, or even the main reason, the auto industry is in trouble. Mr. Buchanan explains it perfectly. I feel that the auto people, management and union, should sit down and get real. Great progress has been made,especially that last contract, but there is a lot of room to improve, on both sides.
This is my first post her so thanks for indulging me.

carmakers
Nissan, Toyota and Mercedes have signed deals to lease open space at the Port of Long Beach, where trade volumes this year are experiencing their deepest decline in two decades.


http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/ci_11031405

HUH??
I frankly admit I'm not an "expert" on this subject, even though I was born in the Motor City. I have been "watching it" though enough to make a few statements, all of which are my opinion, but ARE based in facts:

First, the CEOs of these companies (and MOST companies) are unbelievably OVERPAID; not only Salaries in the multi-multi-Millions, but Bonuses in the same range, and plenty of other Percs. NOBODY is worth that much!! (Unless you own the company and thought up its founding idea!! Clearly, that's not true in Detroit!!)

Second, the UAW has an absolute STRANGLE HOLD on Detroit and REFUSES to budge. They frankly said so yesterday (Thurs., 11/20) in front of Congress!! Hey...UAW...I don't know anybody in a decent job who hasn't had to "give back" something. In our house, we will pay MORE next year, for LESS Medical coverage (higher deductibles, higher copays, etc.). Frankly?? we are GRATEFUL we have coverage!!

Third, I believe there is incredible waste as also revealed yesterday (11/20) before Congress. When asked for any of the CEOs who flew Commercial to DC, even first class, not one could raise their hand!! First Class commercial from Detroit to DC would be about $850, Coach about $350. It is estimated that EACH corporate jet from the "Big 3" cost a minimum of $20K to come to DC!!

I am NOT all that eager for our last main manufacturing base to go bust. As a self-taught historian, I am well aware of the role auto makers played during WWII. BUT...sadly...those days are gone.

Those were the days when people were willing to SACRIFICE for the GREATER GOOD!!

In WWII, it was the War Effort to defeat Japan, and the Nazis.

NOT ANYMORE!!

NOW?? It's all about ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!

How much money can I make NOW so I can buy a Yacht and GET OUTTA HERE?? It's beyond sad...

Economists Are Destroying America


Economists, politicians, and executives from both parties have promised American families that “free” trade policies like NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO/CHINA would accomplish three things:

• Increase wages
• Create trade surpluses (for the US)
• Reduce illegal immigration

Well, their trade policies have been in effect for about 15 years. Let’s review the results:

• Declining real wages for 80% of working Americans (while healthcare, education, and childcare costs skyrocket)

• A record-high 46 million Americans who don’t have health insurance (due in part to declining wages and benefits)
• Illegal immigration out of control
• Soaring trade deficits, much with countries that use slave and child labor
• Personal and national debt both out-of-control
• Global environments threatened by lax trade deal enforcement

Economists Keep Advocating Policies That Aren’t Working

Upon seeing incontrovertible evidence of these negative trade agreement results, economists continue with Pollyannish blather. Some say, “Cheer up! GDP is up and the stock market’s doing fine.” Others say, “Be patient. Stay the course. Free trade will raise all ships.”

Even those economists who acknowledge problems with trade agreements offer us only half-measures—adjusting exchange rates, improving safety nets, and providing better job retraining. None of these will close the wage gap in America—and economists know it.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/economists-are-des troying-america

How do you get Obama to shut-up?
Answer: Present him with a problem, like the auto-industry for example, and he becomes completely mute.

Who would have thought that Obama was even capable of keeping his mouth shut!


A True Story!
Did anyone see what I saw this ...
morning?

The ocean level was lower this morning.

I swear it was!

And... and ...

There was a cloud just out over the horizon that looked exactly like ....

I know you won't believe this but...

the cloud looked exactly like President-elect Obama.

For real, man!

Fix the economy
Democrats are in charge now they can get us out of Iraq as they said was their mandate at the end of the midterm elections. They said it would save billions. So GET ER DONE.

We are in economic trouble and the dems said we should be out, both the congressional leadership and BO said we should never had been there. It was only a civil war they said when the surge was suggested. Dems. do what you said. Barrack could get all our allies to help get us out like a modern day Dunkirk. We don't need sixteen months to get out if BO can get the cooperation of other nations.

Think of the billions saved. Then let the auto makers sell the units that make them money, TRUCKS. Have a real investigation of the global (warming) climate change evidence. Global warming wasn't changed to global climate change for nothing. Polar bears are mating with grizzlies so we'll find fewer polar bears. Antartica is growing not shrinking. If If congress wants an ice age cause the volcano that lives in Yellowstone to erupt. The cause of the last two ice ages were a volcano and a meteor.

Want to cut the use of oil. Move to nukes and clean coal.

USPatriot56...

I saw 2 clouds... both shaped like giant ears.

Nafta was positive
Total North American trade increased from $293 billion in 1993 to $420 billion in 1996, a gain of $127 billion or 43 percent during NAFTA's first three years. If that gain had been with a single country, it would have made that country the fourth-largest trading partner of the United States.

In 1996, U.S. exports to Canada and Mexico, at $190 billion, exceeded U.S. exports to any other area of the world, including the entire Pacific Rim or all of Europe. Mexico and Canada purchased $3 of every $10 in U.S. exports and supplied $3 of every $10 in U.S. imports in 1996. Overall, total U.S. exports of goods and services grew from $602.5 billion in 1993—the last year before NAFTA was implemented—to $825.9 billion in 1996, a gain of $223.4 billion.

The truth is, since Nafta, the U.S. manufacturing sector grew, GDP grew, incomes grew. Facts are available instead of anecdotal stories of gloom.

Of course, there always will be some areas that are hurt, but overall free trade has been a positive result.

You start slapping tariffs on a country's goods and they will simply retaliate by slapping more on ours. The consumer takes it in the end!

THE TRUTH ABOUT NAFTA

EC-Few are aware that NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) has rendered us uncompetitive in the world, has destroyed our industrial base, caused us to outsource most of our production, and killed most of our manufacturing jobs.

For political reasons, Clinton, Obama, and McCain have not discussed this true picture.

Imagine if Congress enacted a special law only for the state of Michigan that:

Dropped the minimum wage to $.50/Hour

Exempted employers from child labor laws

Expanded the work week

Reduced health and work place safety laws

Banned unions

Allowed Michigan exporters full, duty-free access to Ohio and the rest of the states

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/the-truth-about-na fta

Wot a crock
The Japanese build a higher quality, better designed car than the big three.

The Germans have way tougher work rules and higher paid less productive workers than the big three.

Big Government has done nothing but coddle the auto industry since 1945. The interstate highway system was developed so that GM could build more cars for American's to drive down the interstate on.

The only people to blame for the problems the big three face are its successive managers have not had to compete on a level field with the Japanese and Germans.

The last time Chrysler came begging for money, Lee Iaccoca invented the mini-van, and got the government to increase tariffs on foreign cars.

He paid the loan back and was considered a hero, but any idiot could make money if he could increase his prices by 35%.

The Japanese simply figured out that they could make more money by making higher-priced, large cars that are higher quality and better designed than those of the big three.

Giving more money to the idiotic managers of the big three is like putting it in a pile and burning it.

They need to be forced into bankruptcy now, and what emerges may be something that can compete not just here but anywhere.

It is not the public's job to endlessly save the feather-bedded jobs of auto-makers. It is auto-makers responsibility to be able to compete.

Don't make me pay more for a better car from the Japanese, let GM figure out how to make a car that I would buy. They haven't been able to do that since the late 80's, it's time they figured it out.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Immigration Flood Unleashed by NAFTA
CD-The recent ferment on immigration policy has been so narrow that it has excluded the real issue: family-sustaining wages for workers both north and south of the border. The role of the North American Free Trade Agreement and misnamed ‘free trade’ has been scarcely mentioned in the increasingly bitter debate over the fate of America’s 11 to 12 million illegal aliens.

NAFTA was sold to the American public as the magic formula that would improve the American economy at the same time it would raise up the impoverished Mexican economy. The time has come to look at the failures of this type of trade agreement before we engage in more and lower the economic prospects of all workers affected.

While there has been some media coverage of NAFTA’s ruinous impact on US industrial communities, there has been even less media attention paid to its catastrophic effects in Mexico:

NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their ‘death warrant.’

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/immigration-flood- unleashed-by-nafta

Tariffs are no good!
First we are talking cars here, foreign mfgs. make their cars right here in the U.S. by have labor costs at nearly half that of GM.

By slapping tariffs on products, countries will not just gladly accept them. THey will attach some of their own. Tariffs only increase consumer costs besides as far as competing. Who's competing?? We don't make tvs, cameras, phones, radios, etc. If you brought by tv manufacturing to the U.S., a TV would cost so much nobody could afford them, same with other products. You go to a lot of our factories and they are full of Hispanics, many who are probably illegal. Half the local electrolux plant is Hispanic, 1500 workers and I suspect 90% of them are illegal. If people would stand up against illegal immigration it would open up 100's of thousands of jobs, a lot of them well-paying, especially in the tech industry. How many illegal India people are here? THey are the fastest growing number.

The Truth about NAFTA
Without NAFTA America would be buying its energy from anyone but Canada and Mexico. Look and see who supplies us with Energy. It isn't who you probably think.

John Konop and people who think like him, have zero idea what the benefits of NAFTA are for America. This is because they think that America has some God-given right to trade how and where they like, but the rest of the world doesn't have the same right to trade with the US.

America, even under these 'free-trade' agreements is one of the most protectionist countries on earth to trade with. Softwood lumber with Canada is a perfect example of how America breaks it's own rules and subsidizes a handful of lumber people here at the expense of every consumer in America.

Free-trade forces innovation on all parties. Innovation is the biggest advantage America has over the rest of the world. By trying to prevent trade, investment in technology is decreased and with it the unsurmountable advantage in productivity growth that America now has.

Because the US Dollar is the reserve currency; all trade is done in it, and all of those dollars have to come back to America. They come back either as the purchase of goods and services or investment in American companies.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Fact vs Fiction
Economics 101 for gofer!BTW you know who Adam Smith is?

One definite difference between Smith and most modern believers in free markets is that Smith favored retaliatory tariffs. Retaliation to bring down high tariff rates in other countries, he thought, would work. “The recovery of a great foreign market,” he wrote “will generally more than compensate the transitory inconvenience of paying dearer during a short time for some sorts of goods.”

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Smith.html


UNHOLLY ALLINANCE DESTROYING AMERICA


We have an unholy alliance between many leaders of the Republican and Democratic Party who have sold out our Country to finance their campaigns to maintain power. This policy may help the stock market yet has hurt the average American family. They have pitted Small business and Middle Class America against overseas workers and illegal immigrants with limited rights.

Adam Smith the one of the fathers of the free market system in his Book Wealth of Nations (which is used most universities economics programs) talks about the right of workers to negotiate wages as a key principal in a free market economy.

Yet both Parties with the help of many bought and paid for economist never mention this principal when they talk about trade or immigration policy. Economist and Politicians act baffled as to why real wages are going backwards around the world as we do trade deals ( NAFTA, CAFTA WTO CHINA…) with Countries that have workers who are treated like slaves competing with Americans. They are even more surprised as to why wages would be hurt by an unlimited supply of workers (visa) legal and (Illegal immigrants) illegal with very few rights also pitted against Americans.

The only solution is real trade and immigration reform that does not over supply our Country with workers and pit Americans against overseas child and slave labor.

Gofer
The number one trading partner with the US is Canada. It also supplies the largest amount of foreign sourced energy (next in line, Mexico).

The threat by Obama of 'renegotiating' NAFTA with the Canadians has caused them to threaten to reduce it's sale of oil and gas to the U.S.A.

They can sell to the Chinese as cheaply and securely as they do with us. Now who would you like to negotiate the price of oil and gas with? That nice Mr. Harper, Prime Minister of Canada or Vladimir Putin?

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Gofer Wrong again!

This could be a blessing ... Part A
Don't say good-bye America, say good-bye Big Government United States .....
Economics follows some definite natural laws the same as everything else does. We are violating these laws and the natural consequences of our actions are catching up.

Too many for too long were taught that you can do whatever you wanted, that life was a story book we were writing. There wasn't any natural law, just the inventivness of the 'players'. Their success was an illusion sustained by enforced contributions from us drones.

We can have a stronger America if we let the Chinese and Russians dominate the world to their own destruction. I am not big on playing it fast and loose with the lives of other peoples children in the name what of only God knows for certain.
Why in Gods name do I want to tell everyone else what to do? My ancestors made sport of shooting anything that wore red. Europe mustn't have been all that wonderful or I'd be carrying signs with anti-American slogans scrawled on them somewhere in Europe, as I looked over my shoulder to make certain the growing Islamic population approved.
We have the Constitution and the Monroe Doctrine. If Canada wants to go Communist and the Russians and Chinese want to pour trillions of whatever into it, who cares? But not one weapon. They could visit and buy food and health care.

This could be a blessing Part B

I don't want to see people killing each other and suffering, but they appear to enjoy it or it wouldn't be done with such frequency. If we weaned the world from dependency on the U.S. nuclear shield they would have to get along or kill one another. They are like welfare recipients at home .... dependant and billigerant.
Who needs this garbage? Busy bodies and greed got us to this point. If Europe or Africa and their ways are appealing to you, dear reader; there is nothing stopping you from returning 'Home' except the possible fact that the land of your ancestors probably doesn't want you.

America is a much better place to live than the United States; providing you are a person who wants home and country and not Big Government and Empire.

Don't give up on America ... the annoying liberal idiot next to you is like Franken or Mahr or Moore lots of wind and bluster, but totally without grit or principle. I work with people like that, they are afraid of their own shadow. Afraid that the government they adore and suckle from will cut them off for a wrong word.
Be faithful .....

Small Cars
Pat,you failed to mention Ralph Nader who killed the samall car industry in the U. S. with his "Unsafe atany speed!!!"

Small Cars
Pat,you failed to mention Ralph Nader who killed the small car industry in the U. S. with his "Unsafe at any speed!!!"

make a better car than your competition
To compete with our competitors simply make learn what they did to their car great and the American car makers make it better than our competition and cheaper.

Demand Obama PROVE US born citizenship
With all due respect, why bother arguing about Obama policies at all? HE'S NOT EVEN A NATURAL US BORN CITIZEN and therefore not qualified to be president. If he does manage to bamboozle America into getting sworn in, the constitution will be null and void and all governmental laws and authority as well.

YES WE CAN Stop the Obama Constitutional Crisis - Sign the Petition - TO FORCE OBAMA TO PROVE HE IS A U.S. NATURAL BORN CITIZEN -STOP THE OBAMA CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

There are 2 petitions worthy of signature:

1) PETITION #1 of 2 (RallyCongress.com)
http://www.rallycongress.com/constitutional-qualification/1 244/stop-obama-constitutional-crisis/

2) PETITION #2 of 2 (World Net Daily)
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550


LATEST UPDATES ON THE MULTIPLE COURT CASES REGARDING OBAMA NOT BEING A NATURAL BORN US CITIZEN:
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/%E2%80%A2-la test-update-on-obama-birth-certificate-case/

Big Versus Small
When an employee makes an unreasonable demand on a small company owner or "boss", he just says "no". If the employee persists, he can be fired. When the CEO of GM or Ford is sitting across the table from the union negotiators and their demands are unreasonable--the Company should just say "no". If the union strikes, the company should have the power to fire as many union workers as needed (by lottery) until financial equilibrium is attained. It is all about the balance of labor, product, promotion, and cost. No business, no profit, no company. The mistake was made years ago by accepting unreasonable offers with a captive audience as the consumer--the doors should now be closed, people should go home, the factories should be razed and the files captured and put in the Smithsonian as proof to the world Communism in the form of trade unions cannot work, even in a Capitalist free society.

Buchanan
It's great to read someones article that has comon sense and lives in the real world. The foreign companies know our government and the American people are just a school of fish. Japan tried their best to put Harley Davidson out of business by dumping motorcycles in the US at a lower price than what it cost to manufacture them.

Brink Lindsey Wrote:
[P]roduction is economically meaningful only if it is of value to someone – that is, only if there's a consumer out there who wants to buy it. You can show all kinds of determination and grit while digging holes and filling them back in, but that's not production; it's a waste of time.

Thus, the bedrock principle that consumption is the end of economic activity is not a call to hedonistic self-indulgence, as Buchanan charges. On the contrary, putting the customer first is a fierce discipline that the market imposes on producers. Work as hard as you want, but unless you're creating more value than you're expending, you're wasting resources and will eventually go out of business. It is this relentless discipline that drives producers to create more and more value for less and less effort – in other words, to make us richer.

The primary benefit of free trade is that it further tightens the screws of market discipline by expanding the realm of competition. Industries that face import pressure must become more productive or give way; industries that can take on the world's best are able to export and expand. International commerce thus shifts a country's resources away from less productive industries and toward more productive ones.

Protectionists like Buchanan get all of this backwards. They believe that wealth consists of particular domestic industries with high-paying jobs; they want to defend those industries and jobs from foreign competition. But high-paying jobs don't just fall from the sky; they emerge from the process of market discipline that encourages ever-increasing productivity. By shielding producers from market discipline, protectionists interfere with and undermine the wealth-creating process that ultimately produces high-paying jobs.

The art of economic hypocrisy

Corbett in one breath you support old independence but not manufacturing impendence. Help me understand the difference relative to all the arguments for oil independence? And do you feel comfortable knowing communist china controls everything from money supply, cloths computors………?

China: We Are Socialists!

Beijing (FORTUNE) – Senior U.S. officials, led by Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, arrived inside the Stalinist-style Great Hall of the People Thursday morning, briefed and breakfasted and eager to offer guidance to Chinese leaders on how to become a “responsible stakeholder” in the global economy
According to the English translation of her remarks, she repeated six times that China was “sticking to” its “new path of industrialization,” and three times that China was “continuing to improve” on reforms already in place. Substantial free-market change wasn’t part of the equation. “By following a path of building socialism with Chinese characteristics in an independent and self-reliant manner,” she said, “we have scored glorious achievements that attracted worldwide attention.”
At debate is China not playing by the rules of the trade agreement.

CNN-But Paulson said earlier this week China could and should do more to reduce its massive trade surplus and revalue its currency. And a WTO report released Monday complained bitterly about continued rampant counterfeiting and piracy, policies limiting imports and regulatory barriers to U.S. service companies
“We see troubling indications that China’s momentum toward reform has begun to slow,” US Trade Representative Susan Schwab, a participant in this week’s meeting, wrote in the Financial Times.

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/china-we-are-socia list

Sorry

independence not impendence and computers not computors

sorry
oil not old

selfish
anyone who resents the paychecks of auto workers is just plain selfish....... just because you are only making $9 an hour, you should consider it a privilege to support the UAW ........

Frank
Help me here. Exactly why would that be a privilege? I get it, you are being facetious and rolling a little satire our way.

Depends
gofer writes:
Date: Nov 21, 2008 - 10:15 PM EST
Tariffs are no good!
================================================

Tariffs are nothing but taxes on goods imported from foreign nations.
The money the Federal Government received from Tariffs is now being paid by the American Consumer.

So we STILL HAVE TARIFFS, its SOURCE OF REVENUE HAS BEEN CHANGED IS ALL.
This is not a mystery, its open to all who can think and add 2+2.

We pay more in taxes on consumer goods today than EVER IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA.
Almost 20 percent on JUST OIL.
=================================================





gofer writes:
First we are talking cars here, foreign mfgs. make their cars right here in the U.S. by have labor costs at nearly half that of GM.
==============================================
They do not have all the retirees Detroit has either.
The Union in Detroit does not negotiate in good faith any longer either, no more than the US Congress does, which is the worst Union of them all

I want to know something
How can any person in America respect our government?

I cannot see a single thing those clowns have done the last good number of years I can respect.

Some individuals in Government, yes I do respect, but as for the over-all accomplishments of disaster, WHAT IN **** HAVE THEY DONE TO RESPECT?

Subject: Fact vs Fiction



Anne

The difference between wages is about 20 dollars and hour in the U.S via the big three vs foreign competitors. The majority of the wage difference will change in about 15 months when the unions take over the pension fund. Yet the real difference in the past is foreign competitors used our Medicare/Medicaid system as tax payer subsidy in which we have no money in the future to cover the liability, while U.S. auto companies could not use the subsidy.

At the end you support socialism for foreign companies only.

Pat: Unions killed Detroit...Unions Pat
Fat pensions and high hourly wages are an 800-ton albatross around Detroit's neck Pat.

This foul bird came courtesy of Unions Pat, Unions.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are all trying to compete while paying pensions that weigh like a bowling ball.

A larger percent of the price of a US-made car made car must go to paying the bills incurred to union benefits. Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai have no such burden.

No amount of molded plastic can save Detroit without their shedding their Union albatross.

Frank - NH
anyone who resents the paychecks of auto workers is just plain selfish....... frank
------------------
I argue in reverse.
If our government OVER-regulates, OVER-taxs, in concert with union demands, this is THE recipe for the disaster we are seeing now.

Workers who demand more than they are worth are the greedy ones.

Ironically like a parasite, workers in unions with the help of government have sucked the life out of their host -- in this case "big auto".

No big auto - no jobs.
No jobs - More government handouts.
More government handouts - more dependency on government.
More dependency on government more control over the people.
More control over the people, the more POWER government has.
The more power government has, the more tyrannical they become.

The path to communism is socialism. And as we know Communism throughout history has always failed, created WORSE working conditions, less pay, less prosperity.


Perfect analogy
As I wrote earlier, unions killed Detroit. However, who let the unions kill Detroit? Why cowardly, corrupt management. Kind of reminds me of what goes on here in The People’s Republic of NJ with our public parasites. Here management, i.e. the corrupt, cowardly politicians has sold out the taxpayers. Instead of Neanderthal auto workers we have tens of thousands of low IQ, lazy, greedy, ungrateful, over pampered, overpaid, over perked, over pensioned “hero” cops and “dedicated” teachers each sucking near, at and over $100K per year in salary and another $30K-$40K in benefits out of the taxpayers. Nothing like the cooperation between unions and management. Also reminds me of my age old question, “Do unions create bums or do bums create unions?

hmmm, Pat
sorry Pat but i am a free trader and your an idiot. South Korea has a free trade pact that the US Senate will not sign onto as the UAW pushes the democrat Senators to reject. And it would lower the high tariffs of South Korea which we do have tariffs against South Korea cars.

and yes Washington is much of the trouble and so is the union and management.

And now with Henry Waxman taking over from Dingell guess what? Lots of luck because now Ford, Chrysler, and Gm are going out of business.

Pat--get a clue
Guess who has the highest corporate income tax in the world? It is not the US, it is Japan. Japanese vehicles have the same requirements in the US as the so-called American cars.

The average line worker in Detriot makes close to 100,000. A worker in a Toyota plant in Kentucky makes 50-75,000. UAW and the management of the Big Three are to blame, not the US government and not Japan.

The US built vehicles more expensive which were often of poorer quality. "Japan" now produces more vehicles in the US than the "American" automakers do. Toyota has the biggest market share as well. Is it any wonder?


Government is the problem
Buchanan likes to rail against free trade and globalization, but in this essay he strikes at the root problem - government. We can't have both globalization and such tremendous government interference in our economy. But the solution is not protectionism. The solution is to rein in government. Adopt the FairTax. Cut government spending in half. Cut government mandates and regulations in half.

Serial Killers
Washington

Incompentent Management

Environmentalists

Unions

Pay scales that are too high

Failure to anticipate buyers' future purchasing and needs

The blame game covers many culprits.

Serial Killers
Washington

Incompentent Management

Environmentalists

Unions

Pay scales that are too high

Failure to anticipate buyers' future purchasing and needs

The blame game covers many culprits.

Calling spades a heart
Is the problem
======================================================

lostinwilderness Location: OH
Reply # 3
Date: Nov 22, 2008 - 8:08 PM EST
Subject: Government is the problem
Buchanan likes to rail against free trade and globalization, but in this essay he strikes at the root problem - government. We can't have both globalization and such tremendous government interference in our economy. But the solution is not protectionism. ..
===============================================

What does protectionism mean?

Seeing how its applied to doing good for America as something bad in the twisted world of today.
Explain why doing good for America is so bad to people like you

Talent Scout… You are correct but only…

…to a degree! The automobiles of today; made now, not the vehicles made in the 60’s or the past are simply junk! I call them GM Junk! I had a brand new (1990 at the time) Chevy Pickup, full sized and loaded. Within the first year the seat had come loose. The electric window motor on the driver’s side had come loose, Last of all the “CHECK ENGINE LIGHT CAME ON” because of the electric choke on the carburetor according to the dealer. After sixteen months the cruise control burned up! Everything above happened in just a total of 24 thousand miles. GM itself told me to go buy a bolt for the seat! The dealer said the window motor had not fallen out yet and as such would not fix it. The cruise control; GM would not do anything about it even after a huge article in the paper about the huge problem GM was having with that control burning up. I traded that piece of junk in on a new Suzuki Samurai and never had a problem with that; not one! Then a 97 DODGE VAN and the catalytic converter plugged up by 2000 on unleaded gas no less.

Talent Scout… You should know that…
… a good tuned up engine from back in the day ran every bit as good as the computer controlled junk of today. The only problem was “MAN” was too stupid to keep them tuned up so the Gov. had to get the auto industry to come up with a way for the vehicle to do it all by itself. They did that and as a result added thousands of dollars to the price of a vehicle with even more mechanical and electrical problems now. As I say what America produces today is just plain JUNK! Look to the Ford Torus and that family for its transmission problems. Look to CHYSLER and the INTRUPED family and its problems with the electrical system / computers. GM makes overpriced junk called Chevrolet and its engines and the intakes and heads are to easily overheated and warped! This problem is not Chevys alone nope; the Town Car Lincoln made had the same problem with its intake. In fact they had to remanufacture it to fix the problem. You see it was plastic and they had to add aluminum in place of some of the plastic. So please do not put a 70s vehicle in place of a 90 plus vehicle as they are not the same animal.
As to the Unions; they have out lived there usefulness at this point in time. They are now a burden and are only interested in money for themselves. Please TS show me or direct me to an unemployed union hall worker; please.
Let them file for protection or go bankrupt like anyone else and just maybe they will now take the people of Side Street into mind rather than just Main Street and High Street. As you can see now High Street and Main Street alone cannot do it anymore. Side Street people cannot afford the price of the Junk being made!

Make a smaller car
So many of the answers point to how other makers were able to corner the market because they made a smaller car. A car more efficient with gas. That must means gas is actually in short supply or there is an actual link to humans and global warming.

Global warming is a natural occuring event. The last two ice ages were caused by a valcano and a meteor. If these two naturally occuring disasterous events did not occur the climate would have cooled WHY? All of Canada was under ice and the current United States of America was inhabited by woolly mammoths.

That leaves an oil shortage. Gasoline is below two dollars per gallon. The reason it is not at four dollars now is not because we have no big cars. We can still build trucks that run lng or possibly coal derived fuels. We need not stop looking for new technologies. If Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and other states that get a lot of sunlight and wind can develope electricity with solar and wind efficiently they should be encouraged to have more electric vehicles. New York, Michigan and many of the Northern states should not have to purchase electric vehicles which can not be charged efficeintly.

Are we better?
Yeah! Let's see; if we were 100% self-sufficent in 1950's terms, where would we have gotten the labor, land, natural resources, or investment capital to start the computer revolution? No, WE build most computers, WE still programs most of them, WE still design them, and WE make the most advanced parts. We also are the internet country, not to mention being a leader in telecommunications. Gee, should we reverse this? And you know what; we still had to import coffee and bananas all those years ago, so I guess we can ship those software engineers (which is a growing field according to any existing database) to the fields instead!

Diversification in industry is not bad; it's only when the government FORCED companies overseas or out of business that things got bad. There's a reason we all have jobs making one good or providing one service and then buying everything else, instead of making it all ourself; because we all profit.
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