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Tuesday, November 18, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
As GM Goes, So Goes the GOP
by Pat Buchanan
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Understandably, Republicans are seething.

When Hank Paulson demanded $700 billion to haul away the trash in the dumpsters of JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs -- assuring us we could hold a garage sale of the junk -- they rebelled. They acted as the nation, by 100 to one, demanded. They killed the Wall Street bailout.

The Dow quickly sank another 1,000 points, and, charged with criminal irresponsibility by the elites, the GOP buckled, reversed itself, rescued the bailout -- and was wiped out on Nov. 4.

Now we hear from Paulson that the $700 billion Congress voted will not, after all, be used to buy up all that rotten paper on the books of the big banks. Some banks are using the cash to buy other banks.

So Republicans are right to be enraged. They are victims of the biggest bait-and-switch in political history. But they are now about to do something terminally stupid. With GM, Ford and Chrysler teetering on the brink, they are turning a cold stone face to Detroit and are about to follow the counsel of that quintessential Bushite Dick Darman, who said of our computer chip industry, "If our guys can't hack it, let 'em go."

America responded -- by letting George H.W. Bush and Darman go.

Are Republicans aware of what they are about to do?

When workers, execs, engineers, dealers, salesmen and suppliers are all factored in, the Big Three employ 3 million people who contribute $21 billion a year to Social Security and Medicare, and $25 billion in federal income taxes. Add in all the businesses that depend on the auto industry, and we are talking about one-tenth of the U.S. labor force.

As columnist Tom Piatak of Chronicles and Takimag.com writes, 850,000 retirees, and their families, depend for pensions and health care on the Big Three. If they go under, the burden falls on us.

And to let the auto industry die is to write America out of much of the economic future of the planet.

In a good year, like 2005, Americans buy more than 17 million new cars, and West Europeans as many. Tens of millions in Eastern Europe, Russia, China, India and Southeast Asia are now moving into the middle class each year. These folks will all need or want one or two family cars. If we let the U.S. auto industry die, that immense and burgeoning market will be lost forever to America, and ceded to Asia.

"Who cares?" comes the free-traders' reply. Japanese and Koreans are setting up factories here. They can pick up the slack.

But that means Americans will work for and depend on foreign companies for a necessity of our national life as vital as the imported oil and gas on which our cars and trucks operate. All the profits of the mighty automobile industry in America will be sent abroad.

Before Republicans follow this free-trade fanaticism to their final interment, they might study the results of a poll by Peter Hart:

-- Seventy-eight percent of Americans believe the U.S. auto industry is highly or extremely important. Three percent think we can do without it.

-- Ninety percent of Americans believe the death of the U.S. auto industry would do great damage to our economic future.

-- By 55 percent to 30 percent, Americans favor federal loans to save it. And by 64 percent to 25 percent Americans back President-elect Obama's resolve not to let the U.S. auto industry go under.

If the GOP blocks these loans, and the industry dies, the party can forget about Ohio, Michigan and the industrial Midwest. For the Reagan Democrats will never come home again. Nor should they.

By the choices we make, we define ourselves and reveal what we truly care about. Thus, consider:

We bail out the New York and D.C. governments of Abe Beame and Marion Barry. We bail out a corrupt Mexico. We bail out public schools that have failed us for 40 years.

We bail out with International Monetary Fund and World Bank loans and foreign aid worthless Third World regimes.

We bail out Wall Street plutocrats and big banks.

But the most magnificent industry, the auto industry that was the pride of America and envy of the world, we surrender to predator-traders from Asia and Europe, lest we violate the tenets of some 19th-century ideological scribblers that the old Republicans considered the apogee of British stupidity.

Nancy Pelosi is talking about tying loans to a restructuring of the industry. But Congress is not competent to do that.

What needs to be restructured is the U.S. tax-and-trade regime.

Dump globalism. Instruct Japan, Canada, Korea, Germany and China that if they wish to sell cars here, they will assemble them here and produce the parts here. And we shall have the same free access to and same share of their auto market as they have of ours.

To accomplish this, use the same import quotas and tariffs Ronald Reagan used to save the steel industry and Harley-Davidson.

Reciprocal trade. Even Democrats like FDR used to practice it.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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©Creators Syndicate
In the ...
final analysis you were correct all along. In the end you can't have a good country with bad people. It's just unnatural.
I don't see a whole lot of difference between folks. Rich or poor, they all seem to suffer from the same self absorbed emptiness. Just shells of consumption and bodies of fear.
Too bad.

Faith Based Economics
Patrick J. Buchanan, so long as Republicans hang their hat on faith over reason, you might as well be talking to the wind

Too Bad
These second chances (bailouts) have to stop. If they are allowed to continue they must come with attached strings that include, especially in this instance, concessions fromthe UAW which has driven the US auto industry into the ground. I am in favor of letting them file for bankruptcy - it has been a viable option for decades and it works...

Let's waste more money
Buchanan has been relegated to the intellectual junk pile. Ask Americans if workers earning $20 an hour should be taxed to subsidize workers making $70 and see what kind of results you'd get. Pat isn't a conservative but instead a preservative. There is nothing "conservative" about throwing taxpayers' money to overpaid rent-seekers in the UAW. The typical American wants lower taxes, more government spending to solve problems, and a balanced budget. If they got any dumber, they'd support Buchananomics...

Reciprocal Trade
For starters, we need a modicum of the reciprocal trade that Pat writes about. I'd trust him before others I can think of.

Next, we need reciprocal religious tolerance. I applaud President Bush for his struggle to obtain a modicum of religious tolerance from those who oppress, tyrannize, torture, behead and bury.

One Thing
One thing about Churchill I like: He had a high regard for the opinion and knowledge of experts in the field. So, I respect Pat Buchanan's analysis of the situation. But what is to be done? WE are decidedly ready for the non-Bush. Therefore, let's try what Pat suggests. Moreover and also: let's listen to more experts and have a pow-wow and let's fix the problem!

DAMN GOOD ARTICLE BY BUCHANAN !!

Buchanan nailed it! The American Auto Industry
helped lay the cornerstone of American Ingenuity
and Creative Genius in the early nineteen hundreds. Henry Ford came up with the idea of the assembly line and mass production as soon as he figured out that what was needed was a car that even his employees and the average american could afford to buy. By doing this, Ford insured that mass production and the assembly line was here to stay.

Today the big three are in trouble but starting in the early part of the nineteen hundreds states like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan were the envy of the world because of all the good jobs this industry provided. American manufacturing was at its height and America prospered and so did Americans but especially the Americans from what is now referred to as the Rust Belt States.

I agree that the Auto Industry Management has been Greedy and has betrayed the industry that pioneers like Ford, Firestone, Edison and Wright would never have let happen but somehow we in America must come to the aid of our country and assist this industry to rise from the ash heep of Greed and Globalism like a phoenix and once again become the leaders of an industry that they once were. Buchanan has just touched the tip of the iceberg but there is more. I hope he will make this article a series of article about how they could once again become a beacon of light for America. BTW, perhaps we should emulate the right things that the Japanese are doing to. Somehow they seem to have survived even though they produce Gas Guzzlers too.

THIS IS A WARNING FOR ALL REPUBLICANS

If we do like CFR Globalist George Will and others would have us do and abandon the industry completely then as Buchanan has stated...the Republican Party can say goodbye to the Reagan Democrats vote for good.

Already Bush and McCain both gave lip service to the idea that those jobs will never come back and thats why those former auto workers need to be retrained by taking courses at some community college. There is no reason that the American Auto industry could not become stream lined and come to terms with labor and former employees as the pensions are bought out and everything is reorganized to accomadate the production of energy effecient cars.

I saw a special somewhere on cable about detroit becoming the world headquarters for the production of Batteries and as T.Boone Pickens said: Batteries are not strong enough to move sixteen wheelers but natural gas is and this is one area that needs to be explored because America has the worlds abundance of natural gas. Perhaps a symposium of people with ideas like Ted Turner and Pickens would help save the industry but if the Republicans turn their backs on this opportunity of American "Can Do!" attitudes then it will be the last nail in the coffin for the party and perhaps never again will it emerge from its death.

Uber writes:
Faith Based Economics

"Patrick J. Buchanan, so long as Republicans hang their hat on faith over reason, you might as well be talking to the wind"

Aslan writes:

Americans have always had a "CAN DO!" attitude which sometimes defies logic. Afterall, most all great inventors who were the fathers of the Auto Industry defied the naysayers because they too believed in something bigger than self. Even in scripture Jesus said that if we have the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains. Lets Do It!! Bring It On! This is AMERICA and we are AMERICANS. This is not EUROPE and we are not EURO-PEONS!!!!

Ronald Reagan saved the steel industry!?
in what alternate universe?!? Earth to Pat: Have you been to Pittsburgh lately? Noticed the air is nice and crisp and clear and clean? Wonder why? While a small boutique specialty industry producing small quantities of specialty high tech steel alloys for specific niche requirements that makes use of cutting edge metallurgical technology that has a very high added value is flourishing the bulk steel industry of the USA, along with the rest of the old developed world is D: E. A. D. dead! there is no way that we can compete in labour intensive low value added industries like steel with Korea and China nor should we even try and this is an instructive analogy. gradually the industries that become bulk commodities move up the food chain and a developed economy moves with it. Cars are next...

If They Can't Reorganize...
...under their own steam Pat, then they'll just suck whatever we give them up and then STILL fall.

They got themselves into this mess by building vehicles that were unreliable. They intentionally made them this way to boost their aftermarket sales and parts for decades. They damn near needed a mechanic to ride in the trunk but, don't take my word for it, look up their ratings over the years at Consumer Reports and then compare with Toyota and Honda.

We're sick of being used Pat. If we have to start the American revolution all over again we're in the right situation to be pushed to it.

Chris,
nobody wants to hear simple truth,

except me.

Thanks.

Joining Barack
Dear Pat,
Are you seeking to join Barack's administration?
Sure looks like the ol' Democrat protectionist racket. Have you considered that other automobile manufacturers are already making cars here? And their workers can somehow get by with a measly $30 bucks per hour?

You support a bailout that will surely go to the bosses? To executives who can't make cars, and to union bosses who won't? I say: give the money to a start-up automobile company that's planning to start up in a right-to-work state (if there are any left after the inauguration.)

Good luck in the Obama administration! I'm sure you'll fit right in!

Bailouts
We are now in a downward spiral that began with the Bear-Stearns bailout. That should not have happened and neither should the ones that followed. The auto industry has already failed. Bankruptcy is not a problem. It is a solution. The people in the industry (labor, management, stakeholders) should be talking to each other and rethinking previous decisions. In no case should their neighbors be forced by the government to absorb the downside of their actions. The same should have gone for the banks and insurance companies.

Too Expensive to Drive
The American auto industry is not sustainable and cannot compete with the auto companies in Right-to-Work states. GM and Chrysler should be allowed to go bankrupt, fire their leaders and boards of directors, and renegotiate the outrageous contracts with the UAW. America is being asked to subsidize noncompetitives wages and benefits of auto workers--not the companies. The auto companies' mismanagement is the reason why they are in such trouble today.

no no no no no no no no no no !!!!
No more bailouts!!!!!!!!!!!!
To bad unions. If you want to keep your jobs then come up with something other then taxpayers bailing you out!
Your ridiculous pay, benefits, pensions and job programs that pay former employees NOT to work have already driven up the price of American made cars to far more than their worth.

A Healthy Auto Industry Exists
It exists in America and is building quality vehicles that people want to buy. It does not exist in Detroit.

The same economics are afflicting the big three that are on track to destroy all of America. Years ago promises were made to the autoworkers and then the cost for those promises was shoved into the future. That cost is now driving the auto makers under. Shifting the cost won't save Detroit.

Exactly the same thing has been done by the US government. Promises were made, a Ponzi scheme foisted on us by voters who bet they would be dead before the pyramid collapsed. Who will bail out those left holding the bag? Bailing out Detroit just brings the day of reckoning that much closer.

Buchanan has staked out a position that pays his bills. Reality isn't going to intrude on what he is peddling. Protectionism is stupid just as is propping up businesses that don't work.

Why is it...
The Big 3 are in this mess, yet the new line for 2009 offers more of the same. Big SUV's, Big Pick-ups and a gas guzzling new Hummer? I drive by my local dealers and see nothing but rows and rows of unsold gas munching behemouths that they can not sell. Yet they continue to produce even more of them. If you buy one and try and trade it in a few months later, they won't take the vehicle back on the trade. They have had years to develope and introduce new technology, but gas was cheap... so they didn't and now they are in a mess. I agree with Pat, but they have to reorganize from top to bottom.

DETROIT BAIL OUT
LET'S GET IT RIGHT FOR ONCE!! it's the UNIONS!! who is FOOLING who?? UNION WELFARE is the STORY!! s.williams...spartanburg, s.c.

Buchanan is correct.
The Big Three may not survive, but it is imperative SOME domestic automobile/truck manufacturing capacity exist in our Beloved Republic.

Something like 2 or 3 of every 1

RECIPROCAL MY FOOT
What's reciprocal in the Government TAKING Americans hard 'earned' money, through taxes, and then 'gifting' it to those who haven't 'earned' it?
American taxpayer money should be 'buying' and 'owning' whatever the Government is spending our money on.
What's going on is no different than a citizen going to the store to by an appliance, pay for it, and then have Government step in and 'give' the appliance to someone else, who has no money because they gambled it away or never earned it in the first place.
Taxpayers will at some point rise up, after they've 'wised' up, and stop throwng their money away into the hands of Government.

Nice going Pat
Republicans have the blame for the current crises and bailouts and will be the blame if future bailouts fail. Democrats with all their good intentions are responsible for none of it.

Buchanan is correct.
We must maintain a domestic automobile and light truck manufacturing capability in our Beloved Republic.

That does not mean the Big Three must all be guaranteed survival, but it does mean our national security and economic viability require our nation maintain a capability here.

Currently something like 2 or 3 out of 100 persons in China and India own cars.

That will change dramatically as more people in those nations enter the middleclass and begin buying automobiles.

That market will be huge.

In first nine months of 2007, Chevrolet brand grew by 17% in Asia/Pacific, and 31% in Europe.

We ship over pallets of U.S. taxpayer $100 bills to Iraq, to be doled out to "entrepreneurs" and small businesses, to supposedly grow their economy(with much of the money being squandered and looted by corrupt Iraqi officials), yet we will not even raise a finger to maintain a vital part of our own industrial base.

That is insane.

I agree completely that UAW contracts must be renegotiated, to cover current employees AND all UAW retired workers, if the American taxpayer is to loan money to help at least one of the big three survive.

And of course the industry must develop new propulsion systems and concentrate on fuel efficient vehicles..as a condition to receive government loans.

The days of huge pensions and $75/hr. wage and benefit packages for UAW members are over.

For UAW workers and pensioners, Say "hello" to packages 1/3rd of that.

And be thankful to get that!

Buchanan is correct of course on the political implications of allowing the entire industry to die.




1965 Immigration Act wins in the end....
It's hopeless as long as Americans allow the political class to dictate the nature of the country and it's culture (language, religions, customs, traditions, etc.) and the sheer number of foreign invaders. If you invite one person into your home, you have a guest, but if 20 people break into your home, you've been invaded.

The 1965 Immigration Act, lead by Teddy "the swimmer" Kennedy, was purposefully designed to "darken" the United States by favoring non-European based immigrants - that is, Asian, Latino and Arab/Muslim.

We are living with the results. Less social cohesaion, less trust among people/more mistrust since people have such differing cultures, multi-lingualism and it's required bigger government to meet multi-lingual "needs", aliens/immigrants who are at least uninterested, at most, hostile to US history, customs, values, etc.

USA - it was a fine idea at the time, now it's a brilliant mistake.....

NO MORE BAILOUTS!!!!!
If the big 3 fall a new and more innovative auto industry will take its place. Government should NEVER bailout a private industry. Can you say Socialism?

Bankruptcy instead.
Failing to bailout the auto industry would not be the end of it. They would have to utilize Chapter 11 bankruptcy which would keep them in business, allow them to disavow crippling contracts, close unnecessary plants, and come out healthy. The taxpayers aren't needed and should not be made to pay. The only reason the Democrats are pushing for the bailout is their allegiance to the unions.

Buchanan is losing it
Buchanan is afraid the Republicans will look bad if they oppose the bailout of the Big Three auto companies. My, how sad. The bailout does two things, both at the expense of the taxpayer (i.e., you, dear reader). First, it pays back the UAW for supporting Democrat candidates. Second, it perpetuates grossly inefficient production by the Big Three. What is the point of being a Republican if not to oppose such obscene nonsense? This bailout proposal is a bad idea morally, politically, and most assuredly economically. The right thing for the Republicans to do is oppose it forcefully while explaining to the American people why it is a bad idea. Now is not the time for Buchanan-style ignorance and spinelessness.

Sorry
If this is a double post, but TownHall is to cheap to buy a better server than a 486Mhz chip.
An idea:
How about if they want bailed out the top executives work for free for 5 years and the rest of management and the UAW take a 5 year contract freeze and none are to be allowed to make up lost ground in 5 years.
None of them will go hungry and we will see how bad they want to keep their jobs.
One star pat because you did not spread the blame around, unless you want to share your salary with TH posters. But I won't be holding my breath waiting on your check to arrive.

This 25 Billion bailout is
more about a payoff to the unions who supported obama than it is about the corporations..dems HATE corporations remember?
They will put this money into legacy costs, retirement and medical plans the unions strong-armed the co's for and will come back for more a year or so from now when Toyota is still kicking their butts.

The big 3 need to suck it up, file chap 11 and re-organize period, they lose around 900 bucks a car, some business model.

Where else does a guy get paid $75 an hr to stick parts on a car? With all due respect that isn't skilled labor, I use to dock ships for about $50 an hr, try it sometime and then tell me about skills sets.

Feeling Better Now?
After bailing out Wall Street, at least temporarily, don't you people that own stock or have retirement plans that include stock or bonds feel better now that the market problem is corrected? No? Why not? I got what I suspected when the bailouts were first being rumored. That one was easy -- the answer was either "nothing" or "more of the same." Anyone have any different thoughts at the time? Why should auto bailouts be different? Hey, isn't globalism, free trade and open borders great? 32 consecutive years of trade imbalance. Need a futher explanation?

Runt cars!!
I'm not driving a 'runt car'...I love my four wheel drive and next it will be a Tahoe for my wife. All you runts can have your runt Asian cars. When you make people pay 4.00 a gallon for gas because you will not drill...the consuming engine of the world(which is America) dries up....America will not consume when paying high gas prices...thus America can not afford anything....and only Walmart survives.

Hmmm...
Seems to me if the government wants to 'bail' out the US auto industry, they could provide a credit line for operations and appoint a trustee to control and audit the uses for the money allocated. No loan money for retirees and union benefits. No money for bonuses.

These 'expenses' can only be paid for from profits and that is after a fixed percentage of profit is allocated to debt repayment within a fixed time period. Finally, no new contracts for current workers. Just job security.

If that can't fix Detroit and the US auto industry then nothing will and it would only be a matter of time before they'll be asking for more.

GM Bailout
Pat, this time you are wrong.GM needs to declare Chapter 11 and reorganize.Bailing them out will not change a thing and in a few month they will be back or declare bankruptcy anyway.This has be coming for a long time and while I feel bad for all the affected,I have to pay for health insurance myself and nobody feels bad for me.Present and ex union people knew that this was coming somewhere along the line and they milked it for as long as they could but now the gravy train has passed and they will have to live in reality like the rest of us.
The jobs will not be lost and if we the people have to pay for them, I don't want them. Nobody is giving anything to me and I can live with that.

Both Sides Have A Point
I see both sides as having valid points.
If the auto industry goes under, you can bet that some of these predictions are coming to pass.

If they are bailed out, you can bet that what has been said about unions and labor costs, and quality are going to continue.

It’s time that we face reality, auto workers have had it good for a long time, but it’s coming to an end.
I worked under union contracts in the 60’s in the communication industry. Money and benefits were good, but when the telecom industry deregulated times changed. Companies could no longer survive with unions continuing to bit into profits.
There’s not near the benefits now even if you have a union.

Unions have, and are slaying the golden goose. The big three are going to have to change the way they do business.

Change
Although the word change has been hijacked by the left I believe it is appropiate in this case. If the Big Three don't change they will die, it's that simple.

I agree with this columnist
And I also agree with what G. Will wrote today on the same subject.

Reorganization is the answer. There has to be some kind of saniity in the contracts the Big Three have to work with and be competitive. That means the union. They need to be renegotiated or no amount of capital is going to help.

What we can all do to help is to buy American. I have my whole life. The luxury cars made by the Big Three (primarily Ford and GM) are every bit as comfortable and reliable as the status symbol cars out there:BMW, Mercedes and Lexus.

Now, I am not in the super-rich category. I know there are performance differences in, say, a BMW 755il sedan and a Cadillac STS.

Nonetheless, U.S. automakers need our support right now. As Americans, let's give it to them.


Auto Industry Bailout
Essentially, I agree with the comments posted by Seawolf. Forcing the auto industry into Chapter 11 will allow them to restructure to competetive advantage, get rid of their burdensome union contracts that have been killing the golden goose for years, and work out a more intelligient wage scale.

In the process, some workers may be temporarily laid off, displaced, or go into retirement. The industry will come back leaner, more competetive, and stronger if management does what it is supposed to. I don't think anyone wants the Big Three US automakers to go out of business and just disappear. Too many jobs are directly at stake as well as indirectly at stake vis-a-vis suppliers, dealers, and related support industries.

I'm afraid that the union owns so many politicians in Washington that they won't do their jobs act in the best interest of the country. Rather, they will act in their own self interest as usual and the Big Three will fail from the collective inertia of GM leeadership and Washington politicians. This will be followed of course by the usual finger pointing and bobbing and weaving in Congress and the Senate. Scalps will be called for, Big Three management will be excoriated, and the government will call for hearings. Sound familiar?!

Big Three, close your doors, don't make another car until the UAW is gone. The UAW has outlived its usefulness and has become more of an instrument of extortion than a protector of workers. If you want to see bloated salaries, just look at the union execs. UAW members keep voting in favor of contracts that are the death knell of the Big Three. Its a sad thing to watch.

Auto Industry Bailout
Is it not strange that Buchanan does not mention Chapter 11? His approach is as bad as that of Congress---give them the money and let management and the unions continue their non-competitive ways. That will result in comeback after comeback for more money. Let them go into Chapter 11 and get their houses in order and then, if needed, give them LOANS they must pay back in say 10 years. If they can work well in the competitive environment that is and will be stronger in coming years, there will be plenty of business and income from sales in China and Russia.

I worked in the Automotive industry

in two different factories from 1964 through 2008, with a short sabbatical as a College Professor, teaching Electical Engineering.

Yes I have seen it all. Predatory UAW activities, and Predatory Management activities. It really does not matter who did what first, neither are faultless at the Dining Table of 'Destroy American Industry.' The third arm of of this band of thugs, is, of course our Predatory Government.

The 'guv' places restictions on pollutants, OSHA Rules (Helpful, but VERY expensive), Social Security Contributions from the company, Sales Tax, Corporate Income Tax, Property Tax, pollution controls, Mandated Health insurance. This last is quite innovative. I don't pay for it, so if I get a cold, I go to the Doc. Cost ~ about $1,000. I would have worked the problem myself with an OTC placebo, for under $10.

Who pays for all this? Surprise, YOU DO! Corporations do not pay any costs. They just raise the prices. That is how the foreign Companies are kicking us in the keester.
~~
American Corporations... A few Thousand CEOs and EXECs, making multi $Millions per year, while failing to save their company.

Average, unskilled worker ~ $75-$80/hr.
~~
Foreign Corporations... A few Dozen CEOs and EXECs, making a few Hundred $Thousands per year, while boosting profits and market share.

Average, unskilled worker ~ $45-$50/hr.
~~


Bailout? HE!! NO! Put them in Bankruptcy, appoint capable administrators, cut the wages from the top down. If you don't make money for the company, you are out of here! No more bonuses for abject failure!

Finally, almost no one is blameless here. Screw the blame! Fix the problem!


It really does not
matter. With the Debt/Labor/Benefits cost of the Big Three they are toast and all too many people have known it for years. So to support $30+ and hour auto workers we tax $15 and $20 an hour Americans for a plan that will not work. Sorry Mr. Buchanan but I can not see this bail out, the Wall Street/Banks bailout is doing nothing and sending money overseas is down right counter productive.
Here is a plan: Let them work it out. If they have to break the Union by filing bankruptcy do it. Spend less and live within your means?

If we pander, we will win?
Come on Pat. Why stop there? Lets open the borders for the Mexi vote. Lets advocate craddle to grave for the black vote. Lets kill 6m Cathlics for the Jewish vote. Finally, lets nominate a black socialist candidtate for president, obiousely a white one wasn't good enough.

Ultimately what your saying Pat is that principles won't get us elected. I think you're wrong, but if you're right, so be it. I'll sleep well at night.

I was with you until...
You said dump globalism. Not that we could at this juncture, but why would we want to? Like it or not, we live in an increasingly flat and crowded world (ala Friedman) and we must learn to master globalism rather than dump it.

Cost of Living.

Cost of Living.

Silly sounding phrase. The most noticeable aspect of it is that your dollar does not purchase what it once did.

100 years ago, a Dollar in your pocket could buy you full meals for a day, and leave you with change. Today, a Dollar means you do not have enough to buy one Burger.

In 1966, I was able to buy my first new vehicle for $2,200. Today, a similar vehicle costs $22,000. My wages did not increase 10 times over those same years.

Dang! Cost of living, again. What causes 'Cost of Living'? I am no expert, but from observation, I think the Government does this to us, by printing excess money. More dollars in circulation for the same economy, means that every Dollar is worth lesss. Yep, this is just another Tax!

Now, "All praise our Politicians! They Care! They care about themselves, and that's about it!"


One Irritated Rat



We can't help the unions...
We can't help the unions keep their unreasonable stranglehold on the US automakers. That (and govt regs) are what is keeping them from being competitive. Chapter 11 does not mean the businesses go away, but that they can be restructured into a workable model. We shouldn't take money from working people to subsidize overpaid factory workers any more than to subsidize overpaid, undereffective execs!

No one wants to see them go away. I wouldn't have a furin car! However we don't want to throw money into an industry that has created a priviledged union member class whose compensation is beyond what is considered reasonable for the rest of the working public.

And yes, we need to shut down this globalism nonsense.

No Bailing
Chapter 11 is not letting them go.
They re-organize and get it together.

It is a new start with protection.

Here in the South we have three auto
manufacturers in my state. None of the
same problems.

No bailout - Chapter 11.

Who is the American auto maker ?
A couple of problems with this column.
First off the big three "American" auto makers have a large percentage of their factories overseas and are not actually making cars in America.
Secondly there are several "foreign" auto makers than have large factories in America.

The point is that it really is hard to see who is American and who is not.
And if we bailout the big three will they continue to ship their factories overseas?
And if we don't bail them out will the foreign auto makers continue to ship jobs to America?

Yes, I want to save American jobs, but I don't see a guarantee that a bailout will do that.
And I don't see a guarantee that no bailout will end auto worker jobs. They just shift from working at GM to Honda of North America.

I agree
with the all the majorities Pat cites: 78, 90, 55 and 64. Also these companies owe me money.

Oh baloney!
The Big Three are not gods. The real God set in motion certain laws of cause and effect. Big Government illuminati think they need to play God and save the country, save the world, yada-yada. Give us a break.

Not aware
I don't think the author is aware of the strong anger throughout the country at how they were taken by the "we got to do it now" bailout package for which voters will pay only to be told it isn't working. Now, the hurry up "GM is running out of cash" deal doesn't sound any better. Outside of Detroit, that is the sentiment. Bankruptcy is not going out of business.

No such thing
Let's be clear. GM and the others are not American companies they are multinationals. Chrysler will have its new economy car built in China by Chery Automobile (Qirui Qiche Gongzi), GM has plants in Mexico and Canada and on and on.

Toyota is not Japanese and Kia is not Korean. Toyota has plants in Kentucky and Indiana and Kia is opening a plant in Georgia just as GM closes one.

In the 1950s there were six or seven major car companies in the US--Hudson, Nash, Packard, Studebaker, etc. The reduction from six to three didn't cause the sky to fall and nor will the reduction from three to two or to one or to zero. Three is probably too many car companies for the US just as Japan has found out that six is too many for them to support. There may be consolidation and you have have other multinationals having a stake in them (like Ford has with Mazda) or you might have some or all simply vanish.

The US will still make cars and the world will not end. No bailout. Let the three die or continue on their own. GM is losing 1 billion a month, how will 50 billion do anything but delay the envitable and cost the American taxpayer money he or she will never see returned?

Just this morning I heard that many

of of the "Big 3" are "over dealerized," (Huh! Never heard that term before.) If they choose Chapt. 11 (their ONLY SMART move) in addition to getting rid of the UAW, coming up with a new business plan, and new management, etc., many dealers would have to close.

The immediate response was... "Oh, people make their livings at dealerships!"

Whaaat? SO WHAT??

Buchanan makes "some" good points, with regard to the impact the Big 3 would have on our economy should they close, but we have to make some big changes to our "mind set."

A LOT of people are going to lose their jobs, (in a lot of business areas) and a LOT of people are going to have to take pay cuts. The lucky ones are those who will only have to take pay cuts.



How Many Bailouts?
For how long do we continue to subsidize failure?

Where does the line get drawn?

Which ‘Strategic’ rationale for a particular bailout should be ignored?

We were told that capital was strategic and now its “American” autos. Can someone please make me a list of what else the country can’t survive without?

If GM declares bankruptcy, the American auto industry will of course downsize. It will become leaner, more efficient, and more competitive in the global market place. The bankruptcy process is the only truly cathartic way to make GM viable in the long term.

The notion that the American auto industry will disappear is pure fear mongering.

If the Republican Party does suffer severe losses, all the better. After what the Repubicans have done over the last eight years, including the outrageous Wall Street bailout, they deserve to die.

It is time for a new conservative party.

NO BAILOUTS!

sir aslan
This is not 1900 and this is not 1960. The Automakers are not the engine of creation in the US any longer but firms like Google and Microsoft and Intel. Let the Big Three survive on their own merits or die.

Let the march to socialism stop today and stop the bailout. I am glad that there won't be any bailout in this session at least. Sadly, the Democratic Congress and Obama will probably give them the money they want during the next Congress and in 12 months when GM has lost all that, then what? Another bailout?

Why doesn't the US simply go whole hog and consolidate all three and then nationalize that into a single company. I have a good name for the new company--American Bloated Motors (ABM). GM is just like a Chinese SEO only lucky it only bleeds private cash right now. Now GM wants to become a de jure SEO and bleed public money as well. When did the US become the PRC, I must have missed that headline?

LET THEM SINK!


Trade
No one who advocates import quotas and tariffs should accuse others of terminable stupidity. No where does Buchanan discuss legacy costs as a factor in the Big 3's dilemma. What will Buchanan promote after the money is forked over, it is spent, and nothing else changes? Presumably, he'll want to throw more money at them. I have two words for Pat: Chapter 11.

"Reciprocal trade."
Yes.

Thomas Andres
Sierra foothills

Todd
"What we can all do to help is to buy American. I have my whole life..."

Don't be stupid and fall for that faux patroitic tripe. GM is NOT American nor is Chrysler. Where is Chrysler's new economy car going to be built? in China by Qirui. GM makes cars in Mexico and Canada and uses parts from all over. Toyota is as American as GM if not more so--it has plants in Indiana, Kentucky and elsewhere in the US. Kia has plants in Georgia.

I'd never buy another "American" car. And if that means the Big Three become the Big Zero, so be it.

Years ago the head of GM said no real American would buy a Japanese car. He was dead wrong and they have been wrong on almost everything since. They build crappy cars and trucks no one wants.

Also "Buy American" campaigns are just plain stupid economically. It does you no favors or anyone else to spend more money on American products you could buy cheaper from say China. Economics is the dismal science. An extra dollar you spend on American products you have been better used to buy other products (which may have been American) or to invest. And buying products with lower quality and inflated prices just because it has a Made in the USA lable is doubly-stupid.

I don't care where a product is made. I don't even look to see where it is made--only thing I care about, prize and quality. If a product is cheaper and has similar quality as a US product, I'll buy the non-US sourced product and so should you.

THE PATH FOR THE BIG THREE IS CHAPTER 11

.....Lenin was one of the first to see that unions could be used as social tools to take control of industry and pave the way for Government socialism ...this is not a Big Three bailout ...it is a bailout of the UAW ...

.....Below is an exerpt from an article on my Blog titled "UNIONS PART SEVEN" ...click on my name to read the entire article ...

....."What the United Automobile Workers has done ...on the foundation of coercive interventionist labor legislation ...is bring a once great company to its knees. It has done this by a process of forcing one obligation after another upon the company ...while at the same time ...through its work rules ...featherbedding practices ...hostility to labor saving devices ...and outlandish pay scales ...doing everything in its power to make it impossible for the company to meet those obligations" .....COLOSSUS

Wow! Pat you just don't get it!
Stop crying, the GOP is just like the American auto companies, stepping away from realistic approaches to real world problems problems. The had 35 years to get it together and it is the same old story - the mean old Japanese and Germans are the problem.

When many of the people believe that Henry Ford invented the assembly line and mass production, they also believe that the country is solely dependent on these three companies.

1 in 10 jobs DO NOT depend on these three companies. The same goes with the mess that they can't compete because of the high cost of labor, amazingly the high cost of labor does not mean a thing for someone who wants to buy a car - styling, customer service and price does.

The 25 Billion Dollars that they already are getting, is based on lying to the American people - HINT they already build the cars that get good MPGs in other markets.

The American people just elected a 'new' type of president predicated on the same class warfare that elected FDR, so it has come back to bit the UAW on the butt with the $80 per hour worker. Why should someone who makes $15 an hour be concern with someone who makes $80, they were told that was a rich person by the Dems.

If all concern with the problems of the American auto companies in Congress and politics in general, then don't lend them money, straighten up the screwed up federal safety and emissions laws and harmonize them to the rest of the world to allow cars GM and Ford and Chrysler to come to our shores which are designed right in my home town.

protectionism
the auto industry died long time ago - along with most of our manufacturing sector. Buchanan wants to protect mummies. The nation which consume most of the world's output but cannot produce competitively must die.

Why we cannot be competitive ? It is not because of the preditory foreign competition. The reason is quite diffrent and rather simple. It had been stated many times by the industry leaders and by some politicians. If you Buchanan still don't know why it is like that e-mail me at mjarosinski@gmavt.net. I'll be happy to answer.

LZStud
And who builds the Tundra and Land Cruiser? The Titan? The Armada? The Pilot? These runt cars?


Unions Spent $1 Billion to Support Dems
Look, the unions spent $1 Billion over the last two election cycles to defeat/slaughter Republicans...let their Democrat lackeys pass a bailout package if they want. Why should we help? Screw the unions.

The only way to stop them is to destroy them.

I like the new Camaro, but to get the model that makes sense the price it $40,000!!! What??? How much??? This is the type of stupidity that we need to support, no, not me.

Sorry.

Right-to-work laws DO make a difference!
I notice that Pat's column very conspicuously fails to mention the fact that, as some posters to this thread have already indicated, in right-to-work states, the auto industry is doing just fine. It's only in heavily unionized, high-tax states that the industry is floundering. Pat's proposal for a bailout of the Big 3 is nothing more than a proposal for subsidizing the UAW.

As several here have already said, the answer is Chapter 11 and a re-structuring of the industry. And that means that the Big 3's executives need to put it quite bluntly to the labor bosses: either work WITH us to make this industry stable and profitable again, even if it means some sacrifice on the part of their union members - or else the labor bosses can try collecting their union dues out of their members' unemployment checks or paychecks from 7-11, WalMart, or whatever other employers their members will be forced to seek new employment at.

I'm thoroughly against a bailout of the Big 3; I see no reason to believe that if the government extends it money, neither the Big 3's executives nor the labor bosses will have any reason to change their destructive ways.

Pats not a real conservative anyway
Let the auto industry die, and blame the UAW all the way. It's called "reaping what one sows".

Buying automotive junk and calling it "patriotic" is silly, to put it nicely.

Tell the real story
We need Republicans in Congress to tell the REAL story--that socialist Unions are sucking these companies dry. Congressional Republican have got to speak up and stop letting Democrats define what is going on.

Let's all speak up:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/we-demand-true-conserva tive-leadership.html

PAT STILL TRYING TO SAVE THE DINOSAURS

.....You just don't get it Pat ...GOP support for the Big Three bailout would BE POLITICAL SUICIDE ...The Democrats and the UAW are symbionic twins joined at the hip ...the long term goal of the Democrats is to use the unions to take over the Big Three and to eventually nationalize the auto-industry ...

.....Below is an excerpt from an article on my blog titled "UNIONS - PART SEVEN ...KILLING THE GOLDEN GOOSE" ...just click on my name to read it ....

....."What is happening is cruel justice ...imposed by a reality that willfully ignorant people thought they could choose to ignore as long as it suited them ...the reality that prosperity comes from the making of goods ...not the making of work ...that it comes from the doing of work ...and not from the shirking of it ...that it comes from the machines and methods of production that save labor ...not the combatting of those machines and methods ...that it comes from the earning and reinvestment of profits ...and not from the seizure of those profits for the benefit of the idlers who do all they can ...to prevent those profits from being earned in the first place" .....COLOSSUS

Pat
Stupid columns like this is the reason why you were never elected to POTUS.

Why throw good money after bad?

If there is no reform then there should be no bailout and it doesn't matter if it is the
banking system or the Big 3.

Also quit dumping on Toyota among others. Perhaps if the environmentalists didn't make life so darn difficult more cars would be built here.

Sing me another song buchannan
First, dont even sell me on the intelligence of the American voter. Nov 4th was all about IGNORANCE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

Secondly, union voters are largely DEMOCRAT so let them fail. Don't quote Reagan democrats to me, if they haven't left the D-party yet they aren't conservative or they are stupid. In either case I don't wouldn't want their vote.

Lastly, our money will be going overseas anyway when Obama and his lemmings raise capital gains taxes.

Honda can retool an assembly line for a new car in less than a day. It takes GM 18 months. They are stuck paying people 100k a year to work part time instead of keeping up with the rest of the industry.

Like the dinosaurs they had their time, perhaps others can learn from their fossils.


More stupidity
"1965 Immigration Act."

What does this have to do with GM? Nothing that is what! Are some of you people so terminally stupid that everything is about immigration? Hey, it is cold today? That caused by the 1965 act as well?

First, the 1965 Act was NOT Kenndy's bill. It was a bill sponsored by Emanuel Celler and Philip Hart. Second, what the Act did was repeal the national origin quotas in the McCarran-Walter Act of 1952 which did away with the racist 1924 National Origins Act which was heavily pushed by the KKK and other racists such as Madison Grant. Would you rather have the US go back to the 1924 act where a person with a Ph.D. from Beida or Tsinghua or Todai or Kyodai could not immigrate to the US but a coal shoveler from Manchester with a 3rd grade education could? Does that make sense to you?

Yes, I guess it probably does!

The act changed a national origins system to a preference system which gave people preference who had US family members (spouses, children, parents, siblings) or special job skills. Western Europeans were no longer given an unfair advantage by having quotas so high as to have de facto open immigration while at the same time making it impossilbe (before 1952) or very difficult (from 1952 to 1965) for Asians and Africans to immigrate to the US.

But I forgot, everything is the fault of immigrants--GM, the housing market, the Broncos injuries on defense, all caused by immigrants.


What would the bailout change
The problem has been threefold..

First, the quality of US manufactured automobiles, frankly, stinks. Warranty costs are killing them.

Second, there has been incredibly poor management in place.

Thir, the Unions are milking these companies dry through their contracts (pay, pension and healthcare costs) and the UAW worker mentality...they work for the Union, not the car manufacturer...and that's the mindset.

these three factors are killing US automakers.

The bailout is a Union reward for the election and they want to get Republicans to pass that debacle before they leave so they can blame Republicans for the pointless bailout after it fails.

As the unions go, so the Democrats go...
What no one seems to be mentioning in all of this "auto bailout" morass is the fact that what the unions are to the auto industry, the Democrats are to the country.

Originally, unions were created to provide a voice for employees who, as a group, could have influence and impact that, individually, none could. But it ceased to be that long ago. Now, unions are instruments of extortion and bullying. Their mantra has been a constant harangue of "the owners and producers make too much money" and "we've got to soak them for everything we can get" for decades now.

Many warned that cushy benefits (GM's $10+mil a month for VIAGRA?) and lavish pensions would cripple the car companies. And now, they have. And what is the answer? Have the federal government bail us out!

And so it is for the Democratic Party. They used to be the party of "the little guy." Now they are the party of the wealthiest and/or most powerful groups on earth: the media, unions, Hollywood, and academia.

As with unions, Democrats have become a group that does nothing but demonize the most productive members of society - entrepreneurs, innovators, and business owners and managers. With disdain for believing Christians thrown in for good measure (unless, of course, those believers' Christianity is of the redistributionist "social justice" variety).

(cont'd.)

The Detroit News
had an editorial today saying many of those speaking out against the bailout have bad information. It declared management has been working mightily, a fairly new management after the last scare. It further declares the product line is terrific and the Volt is facing up to the realities by being a great future electric car. It proclaimed the new labor contracts have reduced many of the labor costs. It did not mention the legacy costs which burden the company now and in the future even with a bailout. (This is usually a fairly concervative paper, but hey, what else could a Detroit paper say. It then printed a lot of reader letters supporting the bailout.)

Sometimes
Simple solutions can be found to complicated problems. Confounds the Dems - because they have no common sense.

Buy American.

COST? OF LIVING
In the 70's, the cost of living was still within the means of the middle class to raise a family, reside in a comfortable home and think saving for a rainy day and retirement was attainable and ones responsibility.
Along came the 'elite' and the 'powerful', jacking up the economy of their 'life style' with the exorbitant amount of money they make and or steal, and WALLA, the cost of living for the middle class of today ends up on their credit cards, mortgage loans, home equity loans, car loans, education loans---with NO conceivable way or means to repay them.
The middle class taxpayers, have been the host and the food supply for the 'elite' and 'powerful' parasites of our society. We are like fish being suffocated in an unoxygenated pond. Where then, will the parasites go to feast when we are all gone?

sounds like revenge
We have lost a large part of our heavy manufacturing industry, including steel. Our electronic industry is gone. Now we are going to possibly have foreign companies take over our auto industry if they go into bankruptcy. According to the Republicans, the only way is
bankruptcy. There must be a better way than to risk three million jobs lost at this time. I always was a hard nose Republican, but now as a retired auto worker, just became an independent .

Zentrist
Since when is Pat an expert on economics? Does he have a Ph.D. in economics? A Ph.D. in economic history?

No.

What he is is a paleo-Republican, the brand that went extinct due to two events--their economic isolation (Smoot-Hawley) and economic stupidity (raising taxes) that lead to the Great Depression and their "America First" foreign policy allowed both Japan and Germany to march unopposed until it was far too late to stop them. Pat still thinks it was a bad idea for the west to fight Hitler over Poland. Since you bring up Churchill, Churchill made a comment about people like Pat in regards to Germany, saying appeasement of Hitler was like feeding a crocodile in the hopes it would eat you last.

Pat's anti-immigration, anti-trade, faux populism died 70 years ago. Pat isn't an expert on anything--he is a fool frozen in amber and should be placed in a museum next to a picture of Calvin Coolidge and Charles Lindbergh with the song "Charleston" playing in the background.






What crap
"But the most magnificent industry, the auto industry that was the pride of America and envy of the world . . . " How long has it been since that was true?

Refusing to bail out those companies does not equal the death of the US auto industry, it may very well mean its rebirth. Support the auto industry's bad practices would be much like giving money to a drug addict. Short term it might feel good, long term it is death.

And recommending about protectionism in the same article as you write about those growing global markets . . . If we keep their stuff out, why on earth would they give us access to their markets?

Run, Pat, Run! And keep on running till your hat floats.

Pat WTH!!!!
As GM goes , so does the GOP?
You mean the GOP should turn the socialism to save GM! GM and the others know they are to big to fail. If you are to big to fail your are to big to exist. If a bail out happens they need to be broken up.
I vote to let them die. They wont face the unions. They cave to them, fearing short term strikes and short term losses of stock values, for long term fixes of issues. I will not cave to the unions. I will not spend money I do not have and follow the examples of GWB, and GM to save people who created this mess, and will likely find themselves in it again in a year.

The GOP needs to grow a set of balls. We need a president who can lead, not one that looks for lessor of two evils.

Robert
I wonder how many jobs were lost when the US lost four major automakers in less than 25 years?

You know that Kia and Toyota employ autoworkers right? But they are in right-to-work states and not held hostage by the UAW. I wonder what Michigan's corporate tax rate is and compare that to say Kentucky.

I don't buy the end of the world if GM fails. Today it is 3 million jobs, what will the claim next week be? 30 million? GM is losing 1 billion a month, how long before GM runs through this money and asks for yet another bailout? Shouldn't a autoworker in Kentucky working for Toyota and a taxpayer feel a bit upset that his tax dollars are being used to supoort a dinosaur like GM?

Todd
"Buy American."

Something only the economically stupid would support. Read my earlier post to find out why. Buying American simply because it is made in the US does you no favors nor the country. It may help a company that rightfully deserves to fail, but outside that, it is counter productive and frankly stupid. GM and the others aren't American anyway. Does it make sense to say buy a GM product made in Mexico or a Chrysler product made in China over a "Japanese" one made in Kentucky or a "Korean" one in Georgia or a German one in Alabama (I don't buy "European" cars either due to the poor quality, probably the only cars worse than "American" cars in this regard are "European" cars)?

No. It doesn't make sense at all. When Bush for political reason rose tariffs on imported steel do you think that was wise? You think a car buyer was helped by that act?

The "Buy American" thing is for rubes. Something Wal-Mart pulled until it got to a point it couldn't even fool those idiots any longer. Paying an extra $3 for a hammer made in the US over one made in China does you no favors. What I love is some guy driving a GM car that may have been assembled in Mexico and have 1/3 of its parts made in Japan and China and having a "Buy American" bumper sticker on it. Priceless! He should put this one next to it "And I am a moron."

Only two things should matter to you as a rational consumer--price and quality. Where it is made shouldn't factor into the decision at all.


the idiocy of "losing" jobs - robert
Consumers create jobs roberts, not companies.

As long as people want cars you need people to build the cars. As long as people want to fly airplanes you need people to service that industry.

If the big 3 fail, other carmakers would take up the slack. Could there be less than 3 million employed? Probably. I would argue that the bigger the business the larger the chance for waste.

That largesse isn't the concern of the taxpayers, though.

DavidM
Exactly. Pat's idiotic point was "but they'll be working for foreigners." Toyota is no more foreign than GM. The chairman and board of directors sitting in Toyota-shi could choose to close the factories in the US, but so can GM. It is in the process of closing a number of US-based factories as is Ford. It is on the NYSE just as GM is.

Pat as is usually the case has no idea what he is talking about.

either or...
Pat, you're making it sound like an either or choice here.

There is a mechanism in place to help them reorganize. It's used by other companies and people all the time, it's bankruptcy. The executives that have led these companies to the brink refuse to consider it, saying people won't buy cars from a company that files. Well, I'm more willing to buy a car from a company reorganizing than a company owned by the government. I know what kind of car Pelosi wants me in, and I'd buy an import first! Indonesia went your route, ask them what it's like?

Let them file, fire incompetent management, get better contracts with laborers and come out stronger than ever. It hurts, but their Boards have let this happen so they have no one to blame but themselves. Wagoner, you've outlived your usefulnes, you need to go away. The company does need strong leadership now, and you're not it.

Confound a Dem
Looking for all the wrong solutions and buy American cars from American manufacturers. No matter where the parts are made, etc.

Buy American. Contribute to the cause of our national American experience. Sales will oull them through, cupled with common snese in their contract renegotiations with the Unions while in Chapter 11.

American Experience also happens to be my favorite show. The sentiment agrees with me.


government meddling is always bad...
Sorry Pat,

They said the same thing about the steel industry. I wasn't around then, but I imagine they said the same thing about candles and horse drawn buggies. There are things the government could and should do. Perhaps the best thing, which would act in a way similar to tariffs, would be to eliminate income taxes and adopt the Fair Tax plan. That would do more to free up American capital, attract all capital to the US and make American manufacturing more competitive than anything else government could possibly do. We need to end all bailouts and all hope of receiving a bailout. Where do you draw the line? What will you say when the American consumer still won't buy from Detroit, even after they have been bailed out?

Dump the UAW
It's not GM we want to do without, it's the UAW.

PAT THE CAR INVINTORY!
SELL ALL THE CARS THAT ARE ON THE NEW CAR LOTS AT A BIG BIG DISCOUNT!HAVE YOU SEEN HOW MANY NEW CARS ARE ON THE LOTS JUST SITTING THERE IN THE DUST!CALL CHINA AND RUSSIA SELL THEM SOME MORE!

Todd
Let me be clear enough so you can understand.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN AMERICAN MANUFACTURER OF AUTOMOBILES.

Chrysler has cars build by Qirui in China. GM has plants in Mexico and Canada and elsewhere. Ford has plants all over the world. Both GM and Ford have closed American plants and opened new ones abroad.

They are multinationals and no more or less American than Toyota is. Does it make sense to not purchase a Toyota built in Kentucky or a Benz built in Alabama or a Kia built in Georgia to buy a GM put together in Mexico or Canada or a car with "Dodge" on it built by Qirui?

I guess in your insane world that does make sense but for those of us that don't live in a jingoistic parallel universe, it doesn't make sense at all.

Bailout will not work
Thye build cars which gives problem from day 1, yet they pay more to their workers. They do not have any vision. Mr Luntz once mentioned that Global warming is a hoax. With idiotic executives like these, no matter how much you pour into these compnaies, they will keep failing. I say, let them file bankrupcy and build they again from there.

First time in a while.
This is the first time in quite a long time that I find myself in agreement with PJB on a major issue.

The people spoke about the bailout and the GOP ignored them. I am not certain that McBackstabber could have changed his electoral fortunes but it would not have hurt him to have gone with the majority of the citizenry to oppose that boondoggle. Sure enough , just as predicted by several conservative commentaters, there came the rest of the business world looking for a bailout.

If the FEDs want to help use the 50B to build a financial engine to pay these astronomical pensions ,cancel the health benefits and put the retirees on Medicare. That would actually help the big 3 to become solvent again.
Jeff

Pat need sto visit the auto show
Once he sees that American cars look more and more like if they were designed by some retarded engineer from Haiti, when compared even to French cars, he would understand the need for restructuring the American Auto Industry.

Congress and the Unions have both conspired to saddle the industry with a galaxy of obligations and regulations that have destroyed the productive capacity of Detroit.

And, there is no "free trade" when one side is able to pay $3.00 a day and ignore all sort of worker safety rules and the other side (US) is forced to comply with OSHA and EPA and mandated MPGs.

Republicans want to have it both ways.

On the one hand they ask for capitalism
On the other hand go along with Democrats in government intervention and increased regulation.

Wake me up when they are again able to represent a choice.

Pat needs to visit the auto show
Once he sees that American cars look more and more like if they were designed by some retarded engineer from Haiti, when compared even to French cars, he would understand the need for restructuring the American Auto Industry.

Congress and the Unions have both conspired to saddle the industry with a galaxy of obligations and regulations that have destroyed the productive capacity of Detroit.

And, there is no "free trade" when one side is able to pay $3.00 a day and ignore all sort of worker safety rules and the other side (US) is forced to comply with OSHA and EPA and mandated MPGs.

Republicans want to have it both ways.

On the one hand they ask for capitalism
On the other hand go along with Democrats in government intervention and increased regulation.

Wake me up when they are again able to represent a choice.

Jeepwonder
"The executives that have led these companies to the brink refuse to consider it, saying people won't buy cars from a company that files."

That claim is bogus. People still flew airlines that were in Chapter 11 and people still bought Kia that went bankrupt in 1997. What people will not buy is poor quality vehicles which is what many American cars are. Ford has done a good job at improving this and getting close to the levels of Toyota and Honda, Chrysler is poor (and can speak to this from personal experience, never buy a Chrysler product, you'll be sorry) and GM so-so.

But with Toyota and Honda having years and years of top-notch performance in this regard, why would you take a chance on some "American" product.

Pat, Pat, Pat...
Their is one car in the USA for every citizen. One for every 100 citizens in China. What makes you think the Chinese will buy a poorly engineered and assembled American car with poor gas mileage too big for their roads?

I've heard you rant that you see few American cars in Japan, Korea, China and Europe. Know why? People don't want them, and Americans have finally come around to the realization they don't want them either.

It will be tough medicine, but putting the Detroit Three on Government life support is a disaster. As they continue to fail to supply what the market can get cheaper elsewhere the government wll have no choice but to legislate the elimination of Asian and European competition, hurting the consumer.

Obscene
To take money away from Americans earning market driven wages in order to subsidize the exorbitant wages of a GM worker is just wrong. This whole situation is like something out of "Atlas Shrugged". Aristocracy of Pull indeed.

pat read sowell
mr buchanan would do well to real mr sowell's articles.

promising and bailing out all of these industries is lunacy and will not work.

buchanan talks about saving public schools. what did we get for it? nothing! kids still graduate unable to read or write.

of course this is typical of the gov't.

Only Half Correct
Japan (Honda, Toyota), Germany (BMW, Chrysler), & Korea (Hyundai) already build their cars here and employ American workers. Canada doesn't build cars, they build car parts. I would not buy a Chinese car any sooner than I'd buy Chinese baby formula; and "reject globalism" is a catchy phrase, but no doubt bits and pieces of GM, Ford, and Chrysler cars are Made in China, Mexico, and elsewhere already.

Why does Mr. Buchanan ignore the unrelenting and overbearing burden of the ridiculous UAW, where union workers are paid NOT to work?

Is the answer to hold to principle or to buy votes in Michigan with promises of handouts from the government? Wouldn't that make Republicans no different than Democrats? Is the answer to continue to make promises that tax payers will support unprofitable and inefficient business models? Isn't that what socialist governments do with government owned airlines, banks, and energy companies? Do Ford, GM, and Chrysler continue to make cars that the world envies, or are they slow, inefficient, and undesirable?

I don't need my tax dollars to be spent pandering to the UAW just to maintain the power structure of a political party. I don't care how many people they employ. Big company execs are smart people with employees who are fat and dependent - let them figure out how to fix their own company. I drive a Nissan.

I don't understand...
... what happened to streamlining production, early retirement, reduction in non-essential workers, and closing aging/inefficient plants?

Unless I've missed the headlines I have not seen the automanufacturers take one step towards cost savings. Just go to D.C. with their hands out.

They need to (starting yesterday):
1. Terminate production of low/no selling cars.
2. Close aged/inefficient factories
3. Offer early retirement, terminate consultants/temp workers, and let go of non-essential staff
4. File bankruptcy-chp 11 to hold of/reorganize debt/creditors
5. Tell the UAW they're going to have to change or become extinct
6. Cut executive bonuses

From my small corner of the world I haven't seen any effort on the behalf of the auto industry to change their ways.

... oh, did I mention they have to tell those union dolts to go stick it?

I don't agree, Pat...
our auto makers are dinosaurs controlled by the UAW. It is the UAW which will drive them to ruin. I understand the average wage for union auto workers is $75/hour compared with Toyota at $44/hour. Both of those are considerably more than I make if you break by salary down to an hourly wage. I don't want my tax dollars to bail out the unions, which is what this amounts to. That is why we have bankruptcy laws in this country...let the automakers go into receivership and have a trustee renegotiate those ridiculous union benefits. I used to be a union person back when I didn't know better. Now I see them for what they are...corrupt, outdated and unnecessary. There are plenty of laws on the books now to protect employees...we don't need these types of organizations leeching off our economy any longer.

How does this make sense?
The government wants to subsidize the production of cars nobody wants. And the people making the unwanted vehicles make more money than those who make the vehicles we want!

The Big 3
The reason Americans don't buy American cars is because they aren't as good as Toyota or Honda. If Detroit had changed their ways 30 years ago it would be a totally different story than today. It is sad to see Detroit self-destruct, but they have failed to change. The Unions have also broken the back of this industry in Detroit. $73.00 an hour for assembly line work and health benefts that most American's can't afford is self destructive and the average Americans are refusing to pay for their payroll structure by buying an inferior product. It doesn't add up...the average American has spoken. If Detroit made a better vehicle, Americans would flock to the dealers to buy them...until then..restructure in bankruptcy court...not on my taxpaying dollars.

Akagi
Let me be clear - the Big Three are in trouble. These are American companies. Have been since the beginning of the 20th Century.

I don't care about your parsing of the world economy. I care about American companies the emply American workers here in the U.S.

Need a car? But one from a Chrysler, GM or Ford dealer.

GM can't win
I used to supply equipment to GM, Ford, and that other company. They had OK engineering, miserable production, with head-up-the---- management. That hasn't changed. Giving them billions more will just prolong the agony. Send 'em through Chapter 11, reorganize, get new management and maybe something that works will emerge. Give them a handout, and they'll be back hat in hand every six months. I don't want to pay for cars I wouldn't buy and won't drive.

Sorry Pat
I loved your article, but I fear, especially on this website, it will fall on deaf ears.

People seem ready and willing to simply flush my hometown down the toilet forever. Detroit helped win the Second World War and built the middle class in this nation, but now that times are tough and decisions are hard, they must be jettisoned.

They decry the decisions to build bigger vehicles, as if that wasn't exactly what the market demanded until the recent exponential rise in gas prices.

They also continue to perpatrate the myth of the guy who sweeps floors at Ford for $25 dollars an hour. That guy doesn't exist. He hasn't existed for decades.

So, sure, vent anger and frustration at a massive part of the nations infrastructure. But allow them to be part of the bailout. Unless you're ready to see millions of jobs go away, and pensions shattered on a scale that will make Enron look like a tea party.

Simple problem. Why the media focus?
Buchanon's position that the Big Three should receive loans and then use the "same import quotas and tariffs Ronald Reagan used to save the steel industry and Harley-Davidson", is at least half right.


The Harley Davidson bailout was a success. It gave the company
enough time to update its manufacturing and supply methods, and
when that happened, it asked the government to end the tariffs early because they weren't needed anymore.

Butaren't the Big Three are already on top of their manufacturing/supply process? They do need to build more fuel efficient and attractive cars, but their basic problem today is that their employee benefit costs are much
higher than what the foreign competitors pay.

And hasn't the government already earmarked funds to help the Big Three develop better cars? So why should they need loans/grants? Alone, tariffs and trade agreements for forign cars will take away the
foreign advantage. But giving loans to the Big Three without imposing the tariffs, as some have seemed contemplating, would only keep the Big Three alive till another bailout is needed.

But with just the tariffs and no bailout loans/grants, the foreign companies would suffer only until
they compensate their employees on par with the standards of the civilized world, when the tariffs could be lifted wityhout hurting the Big Three.

When full bore capitalist cheerleaders, such as Barone seemed to be in a recent column he wrote, ridicule the "lavish" benefits of US auto workers without suggesting a less "lavish" alternative, I get sick. They only send the message that the hard-earned living standards of the American worker can as well be degraded to that of the foreign, coolie laboror, before any meaningful
solution be applied to the problem.

Buchanon does not do this, and suggested the tariffs, so at least he has some sense.

Stonesean...Detroit is a Wellfare City
Everyone can appreciate what Detroit did for American during WWII. Can Detroit appreciate what America has done for it the past 60 years?

Detroit Big 3 has become slothful, unimaginative, and inefficient. Fix the problem, and we'll buy your cars. Get off the dole!

Side Laying Hogs....
in the public trough. The American auto industry is a broken business model! Linguini backboned auto executives and avaricious union bosses, abetted by the political class, destroyed what was once the envy of the developed world. If you wish to know the outcome of allowing these overcompensated porcine characterizations free run of the public purse all one need do is look at the sorry story of British Leyland. Socialist politicians’ will funnel billions of dollars to serve their union thug masters while quality and efficiency plummet.
The only route to saving the U.S. auto industry runs through Chapter 11. With the employee labor cost for the Big Three running $40,000 or more per employee than US employees of Japanese manufactures, there is no amount of subsidy that could restore profitability.

keep a viable U.S.. auto industry.
"Chevrolet is one of the fastest-growing brands in the world, with a sales increase of 158 percent outside North America since 2001. Chevrolet sold 4.3 million vehicles worldwide in 2006, 2.8 million – or 65 percent – in the United States . From 2005 to 2006, Chevrolet’s sales grew 19 percent in the Latin America, Africa and the Middle East region; 19 percent in the Asia/Pacific region; and 15 percent in Europe .
The Chevrolet Aveo sedan and five-door subcompact, engineered and built in South Korea , is a strong contender in the very competitive global small car market".

The above from a MotorTrend magazine forum in 2007.

By the way, I own a 2007 Toyota Tundra, with the 5.7 engine. It was designed and engineered here, manufactured here, and from U.S. made parts.

But I have owned Jeep Wranglers, Ford F150s in the past.

If my Tundra had been made in Japan, I would have bought it just as quickly.

I love it. Exceptional truck, very quick.

My point here is to say American brand automobiles do sell well overseas. We ought not destroy the U.S. auto industry simply because we are outraged by UAW benefit packages.

Penalize the UAW, not U.S. industry,.

I recognize many Chevrolet products purchased in Asia are not made in the U.S.

But some of the profit from the sale of those products does return to the United States.


Then what happened
A company doesn't get in this situation for the second time in twenty years -- and I know you remember Patty Boy, since you were there -- and grant them this money.

Let them file Chap. 11 and reorganize. I'm sorry, let them shed their dead weight and ridiculous compensation packages that were always unsustainable. If they go on MediCare, so be it. That will be a lot cheaper than giving them 75 billion this year and 50 billion in five more.

Those figures aren't hourly wages, Robin
They include all costs of hourly labor, including health care, retirement funding, etc. Foreign manufacturers have fewer retirees and older workers, since they haven't been employing people here that long, comparatively.

Here are some figures from a 2/1/07 article comparing American automakers pay with that of foreign automakers operating in the U.S.

"General Motors Corp... paid its production workers an average of $27 an hour. That would be a base of about $54,000 a year, based on a 2,000-hour work year. The $30 average at Toyota's Georgetown plant, which includes a bonus [$6000-$8000 each that year], equals $60,000 a year...Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group representatives said GM's base pay figures are similar to theirs.

...Honda's U.S. hourly workers...made an average $24.25 an hour, or $26.20 with the $4,485 bonus they received.

Nissan workers are paid $24 an hour in Mississippi and $26 an hour in Tennessee, but company officials would not disclose employee bonuses.

Hyundai Motor Co. pays its U.S. production workers less than other automakers. Wages at its Alabama plant start at $14 an hour and grow to $21 an hour after two years on the job, according to a January 2004 company release. Hyundai declined to say whether those wages have increased since then."

http://tinyurl.com/6m6tln




The problem with Chapter 11
This is the solution if you want their sales to go to zero. Who will buy a car or truck from a company in bankruptcy? There's that little matter of the warranty.

Good article, Pat. In my extended family, there are those who always buy American and others who buy some American and some foreign. In traveling around the country, it becomes apparent that in some major metro areas, you see more foreign cars than American. In more traditional areas, you still see more American vehicles. May we always have the ability to make that choice.


we are forgettng history here
i find it interesting that both the left and the right want to let the big 3 just go bankrupt.

first, we bailed out chrysler before and the taxpayers made money on the deal.

second, we will harm our military capabilities to be able to produce tanks and such in case of a large ground war.

do we want to be dependent on a foreign country to build our mobile military fleet.

this is madness.

More Efficient
Hey, rather than giving the money to the Automotive Companies, skip the middleman. Let's just send the $25-50 Billion directly to UAW Solidarity House or to those 1 million retirees (pensions are OK, cradle to grave healthcre is not OK), that's where it is going to end up anyway.

SITUATION: It's pretty simple Pat! The US Auto Industry is now building excellent cars, but the Union contracts makes them too costly to sell for a reasonable profit. Without changing the business model warped by idiotic Union contracts, they can never survive in a global economy, period!

Auto Industry needs Fresh Blood
Pat always provides an interesting take on a subject - but I think fresh blood is needed in this industry. And I think this fresh blood will not get a chance unless we let nature takes its course.

Excellent point
Mr. Buchanan makes an excellent point.
If we can bail out bankers with their inflated CEO salaries, stock options, bonuses, golden parachutes and lavish parties, we can do what it takes to preserve the lifeblood of our economy.
Just what is wrong with the Republican party?
Have they gone totally blind to the needs of the nation?
They defend and protect the filthy rich and turn their backs on American workers and American taxpayers.
The money BELONGS to the American citizen.
It should be used to stabilize the industries that form the backbone of our economy.
The money should be used to stabilize the housing industry and the auto industry. DON'T hand it to the CEO's. Hand it to the American citizen who is suffering. Subsidize mortgage payments to reduce them to affordable monthly payments. And subsidize purchases of U.S. automobiles to entice buyers back to American cars- the higher the gas mileage, the higher the subsidy.
Will Republicans continue to turn their backs on the needs of the nation?
WHY?

There is a lot of whining here
for the poor UAW member who might have to pick up part of his health care costs. However, very little is being said in sympathy for the millions of self employed and small business owners who about to have their livelihoods destroyed by our new union bought government. Perhaps, if our socialist friends had to spend a bit more for their Viagra they would have a little less to spend on buying elections. Payback is a ......

Bankruptcy does not mean the end!
Bankruptcy does not mean going belly up. In fact, it is the only way for the big three to get out from under the contracts that are smothering them. The UAW contracts are the worst, but there are lots of other obligations the American auto industry needs to get out of if they are going to thrive or even survive. I feel no obligation to pay for UAW members to make huge wages and receive exorbitant benefits or all the other obligations the automakers took on over the last 60 years. The system is seriously out of whack, bailing them out will only delay the crisis. Bankruptcy will allow them a return to economic sanity. The UAW and others should have to bite the bullet before we put this burden on the taxpayers.

CONSERVATIVES BLEW REAL BAILOUT
ONLY ONE THUIRD OF THE REAL BAILOUT OF THE UNITED STATES IS HAPPENING, IT IS CONSERVATIVES FAULT. WE ALL KNOW THE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTRY IS THREE FOLD: BUSH, PELOSI, AND REED. BUSH IS THE ONLY ONE LEAVING WASHINGTON. WE HAVE TWO YEARS TO REMOVE PELOSI IN THE DEMOCRAT PRIMARY. IS IT NOT HOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS LOST ITS CONSERVATVIE EDGE? FORCE THE DEMOCRATS TO VOTE IN THEIR OWN PRIMARIES INSTEAD OF USING THEM TO STOCKPILE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS. REPUBLICANS COME OUT THE PRIMARY SEASON BATTLED, SCARED AND BROKE WHILE THE DEMOCRATS COME OUT OF THE PRIMARY SEASON WITH A WAR CHEST FILLED WITH CONTRIBUTIONS. BAIL THE UNITED STATES OUT BY SLIPPING IN A TERM LIMITS RIDER ON THE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PACKAGE THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO FORCE UPON THE COUNTRY REAL SOON.

bankruptcy good
it would be the death knell of the american car industry and at least 10-15 million jobs.

look when a company files chapter 11, the word goes out that it is going under and people quit buying products from that company.

if the company is bankrupt, what about the warranty?
where will i take it for repairs?
will there be parts?

these and other questions from consumers will simply mean the death of american car companies.

Patricia
Why should the US taxpayer be giving money to GM? Toyota employs over 100,000 in the US and they aren't sinking. Should they get money too? Or Just the badly run companies should? Don't you think that is a slap in the face to the US autoworker in Kentucky--having his tax money used to bailout a company that frankly deserves to fail?

Capitalism is about rewarding those who make good decisions and punshing those who don't. It is not about jumping in and saving the stupid in a perverse form of reverse Darwinism--the survival of the weakest. Let GM fail or survive on its own merits and there is a process for this--it is called bankruptcy.

Hudson's
In 1951 a Hudson Pacemaker, 6 cyl. got 24 mpg, no automatic, but a really nice riding car, and safe? No government demanded air bags, no safety belts. But only $1800 new. Then the Hudson Hornet with more power still got 20 mpg, and finally emission controls, and all the safety requirements made a safer car, and 12mpg. But the public wanted V8's more power, and followed the government demands for design. When Hudson combined with Nash to become American Motors they built a small car, the Rambler, and the Gremlin. Both died for lack of sales. WE did not want small cars. Detroit learned to build what we bought, and if gas were still 31 cents a gallon, we would still buy big cars. The real problem in Detroit is top heavy administration, stealing the profits, and giving in to out of control union demands. There has to be a limit on management and labor demands. Who is to control? The industry must be restructured so all can exist, and support American jobs.

2008
Toyota workers make about 50-70,000 in Kentucky but that is 25% lower than UAW workers make such as GM. In Japan, Toyota's non-Union workers make 50% less than the Union workers in Japan.

Kia
Christianlib:

Is Kia still around, yes or no? They declared bankruptcy in 1997 didn't they? How about Delta and United, US Air (twice) and NW have all declared bankruptcy and all are still flying.

Will bankruptcy be the end of all three--no. Will at least one of them probably cease to exist? yes and that is not a bad thing. Will there be job losses? Yes and there needs to be. There is no right to a job, especially on the public's dime.


QParker
You’ll hear no sympathy from me for the UAW. The whole philosophy of the UAW is morally, and more importantly, financially bankrupt. However, we cannot throw out the baby with the bath water here. I’m in favor of a bailout which addresses a total over-haul of the industry. Any such bailout MUST include changes to corporate structure (streamlining); AND the UAW. For instance, GM needs to trim at least two car divisions. Their shotgun market approach simply doesn’t work anymore. They need to adopt Toyota/Honda’s more focused approach. The UAW side of the equation goes without explanation. GM pays a legacy cost of ~$1600 per car (pension and health insurance for retirees). That is unsustainable in our highly competitive automotive market.

Why?
We must bail them out because we must maintain some semblance of an industrial infrastructure for military purposes. We must bail them out because we cannot continue to cede our wealth creating industries to foreign countries and the markets without borders free-trade whores. That may sound harsh. I’m not anti-free trade, but we cannot continue giving up ground in such critical sectors of our economy. We cannot continue crafting stupid, anti-U.S. citizen/national trade policies. We must remain sovereign, and sovereignty cannot be maintained without maintaining strong wealth CREATING (not siphoning like the service industry) industries. . Moreover, bankruptcy is very risky proposition. There is no guarantee that the terms set by the bankruptcy court will be agreeable/profitable for the auto makers. There is also no guarantee that consumer confidence will be regained. Detroit suffers from an image problem. Yes, it is of their own creation. But at this point, the perception doesn't match reality. Statistically, there is little to no quality/reliability difference between Japanese and American cars.

Old programmer and Todd


"The US Auto Industry is now building excellent cars..."

Yes, Toyota does make excellent cars don't they? On you mean cars built in the US by the so-called BIg Three. Really? Since when?

Chrysler builds terrible cars and trucks. GM's vehicles are so-so. Only Ford as a US automaker builds anything like Honda or Toyota.

Todd:

"I don't care about your parsing of the world economy. I care about American companies the emply American workers here in the U.S.

Need a car? But one from a Chrysler, GM or Ford dealer."

Then you should care about Toyota then because that is what it does and have less concern for GM which employs Mexicans in Mexico or Chrysler who employs Chinese in China.

I'd wouldn't buy a car from the so-called Big Three if you gave me a $5,000 subsidy to do it. If all three failed, I'd shed no tears. Couldn't happen to a better group. Their collaspe is well deserved.

Christian Lib
Pop quiz:

Who makes the M1A1, the Bradley and Humvee? It isn't any of the Big Three. Read more, type less and you'd do yourself much good. That way you be less likely to post the stupidity you post so often.


I THOUGHT THEY WANTED A "LOAN"
Would this really be happening if the "bailout genie" hadn't been released? Chapter 11 is my suggestion. Apparently, when Big 3 brass signed UAW contracts, they didn't study up on the US Steel business and their union debacles. All they needed to do is take a trip to Pittsburgh and the shore lines of the 3 rivers. Interesting how fuel skyrocketed leading up to the election and suddenly plummetted after it. The damage was done once gas hit $3 per gallon. Both parties would rather see the economy tank just to gain power. Now they have it, let's see what they do with it. Chapter 11 arguments by the Big 3 that it would severly hurt consumer confidence is laughable. I have a GMC and a Ford. I don't expect either company to evaporate.

Dear Chole
The basic question is what is semi skilled labor worth in our global economy? If you don’t think labor costs are the problem why do the foreign makers generate profits from their US operations? The answer quite simply is health and pension costs. Why should a high school drop out with no marketable skills have dramatically better health and pension plans than the bulk of the nations teachers, firemen, policemen and nurses?

akagi
first of all, have i ever disrespected you or insulted you.

there is no call to go there.

second, during WW2 we literally turned the car companies into military factories.

third, the time it took for companies to up armor those vehicles for iraq was entirely to long.

fourth, i still want military machines made in america.

Akagi - working both automaker threads?
I will say this again. The fix for this mess is Bankruptcy Chapter 11 for the Big Three. And that does not include gov. funds.

It will allow the Big Three to renegotiate contracts - the important one being the contract with the UAW.

There is no way in he#$ the Big Three can stay in business with current labor costs. And let's face facts - any pandering Dem criticism of overpaid executives is just that - pandering and populist BS. While the execs deserve a pay cut, it in no way is the cause of the current problem $-wise.

Executives making more than they deserve is a pittance vs. what they are paying 10s of thousands of hourly workers - who are making 2/3 MORE than their American counterparts in Toyota U.S. and Honda U.S. factories.

There has to be some kind of common ground for the Big Three and the UAW.

If there cannot be any, then they go under. Which is why it will not happen. The UAW will get smart and neogtiate some concessions under the Chapter 11.

We Americans can do our part, too. Don't buy cars with the Japanese and European labels. I don't care where they are built.

Buy American. Buy the Big Three who have been selling cars in this country since the beginning of the 20th Century. I have my whole life. It will make a HUGE difference.


BUCHANAN BAILOUT
THIS IS A BAILOUT OF THE UAW, PURE AND SIMPLE

QParker
"Subject: Dear Chole
The basic question is what is semi skilled labor worth in our global economy? If you don’t think labor costs are the problem why do the foreign makers generate profits from their US operations? The answer quite simply is health and pension costs. Why should a high school drop out with no marketable skills have dramatically better health and pension plans than the bulk of the nations teachers, firemen, policemen and nurses?"



Apparently, we have some misunderstanding. I DO think that current labor and legacy costs are indeed a huge albatross around the U.S. auto industry’s neck. I don’t think that’s the only problem, but any solution must certainly include UAW wages and benefits being brought into line with other domestic auto producers (Honda, Toyota, Merc, BMW, etc).

Christian Lib
I attack when it is deserved. None of the major US vehicles are made by the Big Three--not the M1A1, the Bradley or the Humvee. If there was a need for a WWII style economic mobilization (and that is about as likely as Fort Sumter being fired on again), auto plants can still be nationalized. And while Toyota and Kia are busy building plants in the US, GM is closing them and moving them to Mexico. So, even if GM is going to survive, it like Toyota may have more and more of its plants outside the "home" country.

Todd:

Then we'll cancel each other out then since I will never again buy a non-Japanese vehicle.

I might add you are a fool too. You won't buy a Toyota built in Kentucky, but you'll buy a Dodge made in a Qirui plant in China? Does that make any sense to you? You'll buy a "American" car built by Chinese but not a "Japanese" car built by Americans? Does the term insane mean anything to you?

Akagi
You are parsing.

I guess in reply I will say I guess it depends on the meaning of what is, is, when considering your argument of what IS manufactured here and to whom IS the profit going to in the end of the selling cycle.

I urge all Americans to buy cars from the Big Three only. Wait a minute - I just remembered I don't have a bully pulpit.

But Obama does. Hopefully he will take advantage of it and make this point. Screw the Japanese in the U.S. building cars and whether they might be offended.

They don't trade fair with us to begin with. That's a fact.


Todd
Japan doesn't nor does the US. The US is equally as guilty in regards to "fair" trade as Japan. Just ask the Europeans. The WTO has ruled against US practices over and over and over.

The profits? That is an easy one--to the stockholders. Honda, GM, Toyota, Ford are all public companies which means the owners are the stockholders and that is where the profits end up.

I suppose Obama could tell us not to buy Japanese cars. I'd just laugh if any president launched a "Buy American" drive. Just to be spiteful, I'd probably go out of my way to do the opposite.

that's right Akagi-son
Honda, Toyota, et al are publically owned - by Japanese conglomerates on Japanese soil.

Tegardless, my point is being parsed by your obsessive rhetroic in defense of (witout facts so I consider them baseless) the Japanese-owned conglomerates.

Comrades, it is time to buy only Big Three automobiles. Sales will make the difference for them.


bail out the auto with other peoples oil
Federal Contractor Misconduct Database (FCMD)
94. General Motors Corp. $ 513.1m
12 Instances of Misconduct(Since 1995)
$ 313.7m Misconduct $(Since 1995)

http://contractormisconduct.org/

Vote no unless we get offshore drilling and a card check ban ,
Some of our complaints?
union costs?
ceo pay?
ceo's removed?

Seems we all want to lower everyones pay ,but how about congress pay?
I wish I had a job that paid me more than most while I was on vacation?

$50,000 from every member of congress would come to $26,000,000
or over $100,000,000 in 4 short years? Also what would that save in
pensions?


taxpayers work 4 or 5 months now for government,when will we have to work
6 months or more? heck we should move the 4rth of July to the 4th of
Augest?

Now what good is bailing GM out if we will still use other peoples oil to
make gasoline? china is drilling off our coast? will we be buying our oil
from China? Why would it matter if we get 35mpg's or 30mpg's if it is
still non-American oil?

Why should Calif. reap any money from off shore oil? Is it there's?
If any would collect from off shore oil it should be used to pay down the
debt. and not state, How do the inland states collect any money?
I THINK IF WE TAKE OUR FREIGHT OFF THE ROADS AND ON TO RAIL THE AUTO
COMPANIES COULD MAKE HIGHER MPG'S IN CARS BUT HOW CAN WE BUILD LIGHTER
CARS THAT WILL COMPETE WITH 40 ROLLING TONS ON THE SAME ROADS?

IS THAT LIKE HAVING AN AA MEETING AT THE LOCAL BAR?
COMMON SENSE WOULD BE
TO LOWER CONGRESS PAY,JUST LIKE CEO PAY,
COMMON SENSE WOULD BE
TO USE AMERICAN OIL FOR AMERICAN AUTOS WE BAIL OUT,

VOTE YES FOR DRILLING ,
VOTE YES FOR CARD CHECK BAN
VOTE YES FOR LESS TAXPAYER MONEY FOR HIGH PAY IN ALL AREAS OF GOVERNMENT


Hey Jimbo....
You know, the government ended up getting paid back by Chrysler after the 1979 bailout right?

They got paid back to the tune of about 300 million dollars profit.

Not a bad return on the investment if you ask me....so...nice try, close, but no cigar.

As a consumer
I've owned Toyota since 1987. All the American cars I owned before (Chevy and Pontiac) were pieces of junk. All the toyota products I had ran great, which is all I cared about in a car.

The American cars I've seen now have gotten better since then (80's) but I just can't make myself put down $25K for one.

Pat's Straw Man is down for the count
Pat might have a point, if he was right that we're talking about the big 3, or any of the big 3 actually ceasing operation. The problem is that it's not going to happen. The only thing that's going to happen is that new management is going to take over, and the union contracts will be nullified.

This is a bailout of the management and the unions. We need a new agile, vibrant, active big 3. We don't need to prop up the old dinosaurs. No amount of bailout money in the world will change a 73/hour rate into a more competitive 43/hour.

Pat, U need 2 wake-up
Mr. Buchanan, I seldom address anyone as "Mister," but I do you Pat. You've been my "hero" for almost forever... but, Pat, this is an issue I think you're wrong on. Or, partially wrong on.

The Big Three auto makers have, years ago, lost their right to say cars & trucks, bought from them at car dealers on Main Street, are "American Made." The Big Three are closing plants in the USA and opening new ones in Mexico. Engines, transmissions and all sorts of parts, in general, are manufactured outside of the USA.

Mr. Buchanan, both the Democrat and Republican Parties have become "kept ladies" of K Street. Neither Party has represented Main Street, bluc collar workers or middle-class business people for the past 20 to 30 years.

I switched from Fox to MSNBC because you, and sometimes Tucker Carlson, were often on Morning Joe. But..... Morning Joe has become just another liberal arse kissing democrat and Obama cheerleader... I can't take it any longer... so I tune into the local news. It seems to me both you and Tucker are more than a little too comfortable associating with the libs at MSNBC.



Dear Chloe
Unfortunately the only road to restructuring the health and pension benefit disaster lies along U.S. Highway 11, (Chapter 11). These folks won’t make any concessions until there is no other alternative except extinction and sometimes not even then, remember Eastern Airlines?

bailout
screw the automakers why should we as taxpayers bail them out for managing their companys terribly,they need to go int chapter 11 just like anyone else would have to,also the taxpayers will in effect be baing out the uaw which ha bankrupted the big 3 and made them non competitive with foreign auto makers

Toyota and Honda
Todd:

HMC and TM are both on the NYSE and both are owned by people from all over the world (just like GM). And what facts would those be Todd? That your wonderful "American" companies are closing American-based plants left and right and opening new ones in Mexico and Toyota and Kia are opening them in the US employing thousands and thousands of American workers? Yet you'd still buy a Chinese-made Dodge over a Kentucy-built Toyota? Does the term GM wh0re mean anything to you?

Comrades? A very apt term for you to use. As for me, I'll buy a Big Three when hell freezes over.

I can't figure out Buchanan
Screw the banks that provide lines of credit to Detroit. Screw Wall Street that provides capital to GM and GMAC but, oh, protect GM at all costs cuz they is American not foreigners. The Japanese were our enemies once, a long time ago. Get over it Pat. You rail against republicans for supporting freedom, free trade and free markets. You rail against democrats for the crazy things democrats do. In reality, you simply support whatever things appeal to Pat Buchanan and have no principles whatsoever upon which you base your opinions.

You despise Rockefeller republicans, the CFR, and the Federal Reserve but, you are the worst Rockefeller republican in the country. Protect America and screw everyone else. What you mean is protect your quaint antiquated notion of what America used to be at the cost of progress for everyone else. You got yours.

Imagine a world without currency. Pat is hungry and the only buyer for gold at the moment is a Saudi prince. Pat has lots of gold but no food. Pat will starve to death because he ain't gonna send the profit on that food to Saudi Arabia. He has principles.

After all, it is a well known fact that all those foreigners around the world are not simply trying to better themselves with their industry. They are trying to conquer America with unfair trade practices and illegal dumping. They are evil because their people want the same thing we have.

Your misguided folly will only help ensure we not only get caught up to but, overtaken by those other countries full of strange looking and strange talking people. You never seem to learn an inescapable truth. Turning to the government as savior will not save them but, only prolong the day of reckoning. It only raises the ultimate price to be paid.

Definitive Trade Luddite, Economics
Illiterate, Korsokoff's Syndrome Poster Person and perpetual pisser and moaner, poor Paddy Buchanan whines that "... 850,000 (ridiculously early) 'retirees' ...... depend for pensions and (health insurance) on (what, about a hundred years ago, before they were mobbed-up union mis-managed into irreverable insolvency was sometimes called) the 'big three.'"

"If they go under," says Paddy Buchanan, "the burden falls on us."

Well, Mr Buchanan, sorry about this -- but the so-called "big three" went under years ago. The "big three" -- and not because the Japanese wouldn't buy their already heavily American-Taxpayer-subsidized product -- but because Americans would not. And will not.

And if your drone-cloned East Coast boozing buddies -- DC's other nattering nabobs of negativity and its self annointing, self-appointing and self-perpetuating permanently-parasitical politicians -- squander another Cent of the confiscated wealth of America's few remaining innovative, creative, industrious and productive men into pushing the much-vaunted "big three's" already locked-in failures a few feet down the road, that (additional) burden will already have fallen on us.

And will be but a drop in the bucket of what is in any case to follow. As every one of the chickens of eighty years of corrupt "Democrat'" lootings and thievings and Ponzi scams comes -- in the form of Weimar-Republic-like hyper-inflation and the consequential bankruptcy of our nation -- home to rest!

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles - CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Michael
Some have, some not. Chrysler--pieces of junk. GM: some pieces of junk, others not so, overall, it's okay. The one firm that has done well is Ford. It used to stand for Fix or Repair Daily or Found on the Road Dead, but now it is really pressing Honda and Toyota. If you must buy a so-called American car or truck, this is the one to buy.

QParker
You bring up a very relevant point: the benefits that employees of the Big Three get, versus the typical baseline benefits enjoyed by other mainstream American occupations. You said they were "dramatically better".
But the question is, exactly what are these benefits and why are they better than those of teachers, fire fighters, police, and so on, whom you contrasted with the auto workers?

hmmmm
sorry Pat , but you are a nut case now. Go back to take some econ 101 classes. And i am a Free trader and there is a Free trade agreement with South Korea now but blocked in the Senate. If it passed then South Korea would drop tariffs against our auto companies. As it is there is a high tariff now.

And i did own a Chrysler. Piece of Junk. Oil leaks and auto transmission went out. And i did take care of them. I will never buy a Chrysler again. And i do drive a Ford Ranger now. If any more problems go wrong then i will not have a Ford again. Had to replace 2 fuel pumps in a few months time. Guess what about =$1300 for 2 of them. Ouch.

My chevy Astro van held up pretty well. got over 200,000 miles on the engine and no oil leaks.

So What?
We don't need GM & we sure as hell don't need the GOP!

When will the politicians in Washington start putting the American people & the good of the nation before the good of their party?

Gov to the rescue
Gee Pat,
Based on a recent column, I thought there might be hope for you. But your comments on our auto makers are incredible. The only way for our Big 3 to be viable is for them to renegotiate some terms with their employees and some cities in which they have industrial bonds, etc. That can't and won't happen outside of bankruptcy - but it could happen in Chapter 11. To preserve our Big 3, we need to let them correct their problems, not give them a temporary loan which won't be paid back. And your hints at isolation and controlled trade sound like they were written back in the early 20th century. gene, longmont, CO

not letting auto industry "die"
The automakers won't "die". They'll declare bankruptcy, which will allow them to void union contracts and get more reasonable labor and retirement costs. They'll still be here, you twit.

Sorry Pat
If the GOP had been taking care of business instead of spending us into oblivion, maybe I would care.

I for one have had it with the bailouts.

If not bailing out GM sends us back into the Dark Ages, so be it.

I know how to live off the land.

Mr. Buchanan...As GM Goes...
Why can't GM, Ford and Chrysler file bankrupty as Delta Airlines did years ago and bound back. They'll have to re-negotiate contracts with workers and retirees. Even if the gov't bails them out now, they'll still have the same heavy charges and liabilites as before. Isn't that one of the reasons they are unable to compete with Honda and Toyota? Not too sure about his bailout!!

For Chip
According to the UAW members are covered under a defined benefit plan integrated with social security that offers $36,000 annually beginning at age 55 with 30 years service. In my local school district a classroom teacher would need to have reached age 59.5, have a Master’s, and over 25 years of service to earn an equivalent benefit. In regards to health benefits, the real killer, the low deductible, low co pay coverage’s to which our union brothers believe they have a god given entitlement have not been available for years.But I guess slapping glass into Chevys is real important to our society.

Reaganite...
I appreciate your response but adding union benefits into base salary to get to $75/hour just doesn't make any difference...I have benefits, too, and they sure don't add my salary up to $75/hour. My point is, if the UAW didn't pressure the manufacturers to pay these high salary and benefit packages, the auto makers could be more competitive with non-American manufacturers. I have nothing against the auto makers, it's the union I don't want to bail out. I think the big unions like the UAW are leeches and deserve to be destroyed. If the auto makers were allowed to compete without worrying about the unions, they wouldn't be insolvent. Just my opinion. However, I do believe this situation requires bankruptcy court intervention, not taxpayer funding.

Good facts, poor opinion
History does not support the idea that GM will be the death knell of the Republican party. As an aside, I have an uncle who fought in WWII and will never buy a German or Japanese car. He is obviously an exception.

I go with Ann Coulter; the Democrats have finally acheived over 50% of the votes and are now experts on what the "American People" want and believe?

We are too close to this problem. Step back, Pat has told us that the British caused WWII unnecessarily and he points to errors (mainly by Winston Churchhill) to back up his thesis.
Is perfection acheivable then? Or does avoiding one error only make another more likely?

Republicans no more need to be perfect than Democrats. The flawed presidency of George Bush proves that. If our basic principles are correct, then the errors we've made will be put in perspective during the next few years.

The Democrats are depending on the brilliance of their policies and their new president to correct the problems they've exacerbated to regain power. Failing that, they are hoping that a tame media can cover for them. I believe they've misjudged both the brilliance of their policies and the power of the tame (but now discredited) media.

Listen to Pat folks
The auto bailout is going to happen, either with the outgoing Bush or with the incoming Obama.

The question is, in 2010 how are Republicans who voted to give Wall Street banks a trillion dollars and then refused to loan GM a fraction of that bailout money going to reconcile this conflict to voters in the rust belt?

Old Republicans
The problem is that no one knows exactly what to do. If bailing GM would work then who wouldn't be for it. People are skeptical that we are only putting off the inevitable. THEIR LABOR COSTS ARE TOO HIGH AND THE MANAGEMENT IS PAYED TOO MUCH!!! FIX THAT DAMN IT!!!

Easy
"The question is, in 2010 how are Republicans who voted to give Wall Street banks a trillion dollars and then refused to loan GM a fraction of that bailout money going to reconcile this conflict to voters in the rust belt?"

We were wrong and stupid the first time, we weren't going to be wrong and stupid the second time around. You can rightfully blame us for the first time, but two wrong don't make a right.

How about the Dems that voted against the 700B Wall Street bailout, but now are supporting a bailout of GM, Ford and Chrysler. How can they explain that?


Timothy
"If bailing GM would work then who wouldn't be for it."

People like me who agree with President Cleveland when he said the "People should support the government, the government should not support the people."

Welfare for GM is still welfare.

Easy Akagi
They will say I voted against lining the pockets of Wall Street investors, and voted for keeping jobs here in my district.

I'm not passing judgement on any of this, just pointing out the potential minefield.

"Unbiased"?
Chris scrawls:

"They got themselves into this mess by building vehicles that were unreliable. They intentionally made them this way to boost their aftermarket sales and parts for decades. They damn near needed a mechanic to ride in the trunk but, don't take my word for it, look up their ratings over the years at Consumer Reports and then compare with Toyota and Honda."

What you're saying isn't all that true, Chris. And to the extent that it ever WAS true, it's less so now than it's ever been.

So you'll forgive the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbor, but you won't forgive Detroit for the 1970s; is that what you're telling us? After all, Toyota and Honda undoubtedly had a hand in building all those airplanes Yamamoto used to attack us.

Another thing: Consumer Reports, a publication that was started by that stalwart friend of the American auto industry Ralph Nader, hardly qualifies as an unbiased authority on automobiles.


"Unbiased"?--Part II
Don't misunderstand. I don't favor a government bailout of the auto industry at all.

One important reason I don't favor a bailout is because if the feds bail the Big Three out, they'll demand more say in what kinds of cars the Big Three build.

That dingbat Nasty Pelousy, who wouldn't know a carburetor from a distributor, has already outlined what kinds of "strings" she intends to attach to any bailout package for Detroit, and it includes mandates for specific kinds of fuel-efficient cars; and for some of the vehicles she intends to mandate, the technology is not yet market-ready, and won't be for several years.

This is the reason Whirlpool Corporation recently had to buy out the Maytag Company. Ten years ago, the federal government mandated high-efficiency washing machines. Maytag rushed one to market that wasn't "Maytag reliable", and as a result of some of the problems with their machines, they were slapped with a class-action consumer lawsuit that put them almost a billion dollars in debt.

Government interference in the auto industry has been widely and grossly underestimated as a cause of the Big Three's problems. There are four kinds of people you don't want doing your product engineering for you: Accountants, attorneys, bureaucrats and politicians.

Give em' $100 Billion...

Just take it from the welfare rolls...

More for GM, less for Democrat Plantations.

They want GM, we want an end to the non-productive criminal class.

Sounds like "Crossing the Aisle" to me...

What sayeth Messiah?

Too bad McCain couldn't thunk something "Mavericky" like that during his Messiah conference in Chi-town.

"Unbiased"?--Part II
Don't misunderstand. I don't favor a government bailout of the auto industry at all.

One important reason I don't favor a bailout is because if the feds bail the Big Three out, they'll demand more say in what kinds of cars the Big Three build.

That dingbat Nasty Pelousy, who wouldn't know a carburetor from a distributor, has already outlined what kinds of "strings" she intends to attach to any bailout package for Detroit, and it includes mandates for specific kinds of fuel-efficient cars; and for some of the vehicles she intends to mandate, the technology is not yet market-ready, and won't be for several years.

This is the reason Whirlpool Corporation recently had to buy out the Maytag Company. Ten years ago, the federal government mandated high-efficiency washing machines. Maytag rushed one to market that wasn't "Maytag reliable", and as a result of some of the problems with their machines, they were slapped with a class-action consumer lawsuit that put them almost a billion dollars in debt.

Government interference in the auto industry has been widely and grossly underestimated as a cause of the Big Three's problems. There are four kinds of people you don't want doing your product engineering for you: Accountants, attorneys, bureaucrats and politicians.

Rand
"So you'll forgive the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbor, but you won't forgive Detroit for the 1970s; is that what you're telling us? After all, Toyota and Honda undoubtedly had a hand in building all those airplanes Yamamoto used to attack us."

The planes that attacked were mostly Kates, Vals and Zeros. Kates were made by Nakajima, Vals by Aichi (Aichi did after the war become Aichi Machine Industry which does make parts for Nissan) and the Zero was made by both Mitsubishi (which does make US cars) and Nakajima. Toyota made trucks during WWII and Honda wasn't founded until after WWII. Neither had a hand in the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Yamamoto also wasn't the commander for the attack itself, that was Nagumo (the worst possible commander for the mission in my view) and the plans for the attack were the brain child of Minoru Genda.

As for forgiving Japan for the attack, nothing to forgive.

Carlos that's what Dems advocate
Take it from the CORPORATE welfare fund established for Wall Street.

Reasons, not a plan
Mr. Buchanan, you give some good reasons as to why the Big 3 should be saved. Your reasoning isn't perfect - for example, Honda and Toyota already build cars here, so we should give them credit for doing so.

However, what we don't really have is a convincing argument that they CAN be saved. If there is a business plan that makes sense, we should look at it. What we should not do is throw good money after bad.

Let them present a business plan that is not controlled by the many guilty parties - the executives, the unions, the politicians, the bankers and especially those connected with the oil and gas industry - and let's see if it makes any sense.

Big Three medicine...
I agree that some type of reorg, dismantling the union choke hold, is a requirement of any bailout. BUT, don't be too cavalier in being willing to "let them go away". You fool yourselves if you think creating 3M+ jobs from some fantasy new industry will happen anytime soon. Remember the tech industry that was to sponsor a new "information industry"? Many of those jobs went away too. Want a permanent step down the standard of living staircase? Let the Big 3 go away for keeps.

agaki
it is one thing to call names quite another to have your facts wrong while doing it.

here is the history of the hummer, first made by amc in south bend, now made by gm.

Hummers were originally built by AM General Corporation, which was formerly AMC Jeep's General Products division[1], in its South Bend, Indiana assembly plant. AM General had planned to sell a civilian version of the Hum-Vee as far back as the late 1980s. In 1990, two matching white Hum-Vees were driven from London to Beijing over the rough roads of central Soviet Union. The Hummers made the trip with ease, for they were built to drive on off-road terrain. The highlights of this journey were broadcast in the United States on ESPN. This publicity would pale in comparison to the attention that the HMMWV received for its service in Operation: Desert Storm the following year.

In 1992, AM General began selling a civilian version of the M998 High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV or Hum-Vee) vehicle to the public under the brand name "Hummer".

In 1998, AM General sold the brand name to General Motors, but continued to manufacture the vehicles. GM is responsible for the marketing and distribution of all Hummers produced by AM General. In the next few years, GM introduced two new homegrown models, the H2 and H3, and renamed the original vehicle H1. AM General continued to build the H1 until it was discontinued in 2006,[2] and is contracted by GM to produce the H2. The H3 is built in Shreveport, LA alongside the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon pickups, with which it shares the GMT-355 platform (custom modified and designated GMT-345).
2006 Hummer lineup: H3, H1, and H2 (L-R)




agaki
then i looked up the M1A1 and it seems to be made by general dynamics in lima, ohio.

now much of its weaponry and armor are made elsewhere but the main body type is from general dynamics.

if you have info to contradict this let me know.

Right in Pat's wheelhouse
Pat's article falls right into his comfort zone of isolationism and trade barriers.

The US auto industry (UAW/Ford/Chrylser/GM) has been acting like the good times would never end for 30+ years. When Japan first introduced their motorcycles they killed off all competing brands in a few years with a better product. When Japanese cars showed up the US makers put out junk in response, no excuse. First US diesel power cars were garabage, how could that be with GM's diesels being some of the best in the world?

If they were serious and stopped playing politics the US auto industry should have been reorganized 15 years ago at a minimum. Same way our leaders knew the Housing Mortgage mess had to fail at some point but let it go.

A clean bankruptcy is there best bet to return to health. Keep the Feds and politics out of their business. Maybe the Fed could guarantee payments to the component suppliers and support industries. During their reorg new capital that is now sitting on the stock market sidelines will flow into building new plants, infrastructure, product lines and hiring, sans heavy unionization. This will pick up the slack in auto production right when we come out of recession, best thing that could happen in the country. Get out of the rust belt, lousy weather, high tax/labor areas dying from lousy politicians and policy.

All this talk about hydrogen, fuel cells, batteries & methanol is wishful thinking at best. Example: Methanol gets 1/2 the mileage gasoline does, Hydrogen requires too much energy to make, fuel cells are not robust enough and are a very large dangerous high current potential battery when exposed, batteries are hazardous waste and require a electric grid plus nuke generation we don't currently have. Natural gas is our best bet for fuel source but do you hear anyone talking about it?

No Representation from NorCal

The Big 3
Pat nailed this one.

One of the problems with my fellow Republicans is that there seem to be a disproportionate amount of yuppies, rather than real folks that think with their heads.

I have been involved in the automotive business for many, many, years, both domestic and import, and I will tell you that the machines coming out of Detroit by any of the Big 3 are on a par with any comparable offering from a foreign auto maker. No doubt. Ask anyone who works on them. For every horror story about a domestic there is one for a Suburu, Honda, Audi, etc.

What we have is a mindset of so many boomers that if it is American built, it must be junk. All of my yuppie buddies say so, and it is stated in Consumer reports and GQ. It must be true, everyone at the club says so. We don't need any manufacturing in this country....leave it to the Chinese and Koreans, we can all run around selling each other insurance and investments.

I could never understand the motivation behind purchasing and sending your money overseas and not supporting your freinds and neighbors and their products. It never did make any sense to me. To me, it was always a no brainer.

If we do what my hero, Ronald Reagan did when foreign governments were dumping steel products into this country, we would be OK. If we level the playing field so that American cars can be sold on an even basis in foreign counties, I think all of you "American is junk" guys would be surprised at how well they would do.

We need to give the automakers and the blue collar guys the same deal we gave all of the bankers and hedge fund operators on Wall Street, and at the same time insist that our trading partners operate under the same parameters that we do.

I hate the thought of any bailout. I did before, but we have let these "free market" guys paint us into a corner by their lack of moral restraint, we now have no choice.




christianlib
Awfully nice night so quit banging your head against the wall dear.

gm
11-18-2008

Pat,

You are exactly right! I have been a life long Republican and if this is their position they can kiss this Republican good bye!

Hey another thing, what happens if we let the big three go in 2009, then in 2010 the very next crysis that would confront the United States is Obama's Union rebuilding plans. Honda and Toyota have said for years that if their facilities in the United States go union they would shut the plants down? What then no automotive manufacturing period?
Thank God we still have Boeing or maybe their not important either!
Hey just think Global warming nuts would be very happy!

New Jersey
Mike