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Tuesday, October 07, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Of Generals and Victories
by Pat Buchanan
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"(O)nce war is forced upon us, there is no other alternative than to apply every available means to bring it to a swift end.

"War's very object is victory, not prolonged indecision.

"In war there is no substitute for victory."

Familiar to every graduate of West Point, the words are from the farewell address of Gen. MacArthur, to Congress on April 19, 1951, after he was relieved of command in Korea by Harry Truman.

Two years later, however, Dwight David Eisenhower, a general as famous as MacArthur, would agree to a truce that restored the status quo ante in Korea.

For the first time since the War of 1812, the United States was not decisively victorious. We had preserved the independence of war-ravaged South Korea. But the North remained the domain of Stalinist strongman Kim Il-Sung for 41 years.

After Korea came Vietnam. The United States did not lose a major battle and departed in early 1973 with every provincial capital in South Vietnamese hands. But the war was lost in April of 1975, when Saigon, its military aid slashed by Congress, fell to an invasion from across the DMZ.

Vietnam introduced us to what no generation of Americans save Southerners had ever known: an American strategic defeat.

Now we are about to enter our eighth year in Afghanistan and our sixth year in Iraq. In neither is victory, in the MacArthurian sense, assured. Indeed, "victory" may be unattainable, says America's most successful general, David Petraeus, who asserts he will never use the word in speaking of Iraq. "This is not the sort of struggle where you take a hill, plant the flag and go home to a victory parade."

Why will Operation Iraqi Freedom not end like Gulf War I, where Gen. Schwarzkopf led the victorious army up Constitution Avenue? Because, whenever a truce is achieved through power-sharing, it often proves to be the prelude to a new war, when the power shifts.

In Iraq, the Shia-Sunni struggle remains unresolved. The Maliki regime wants the Americans gone so it can settle accounts with the Awakening Councils and Sons of Iraq we armed to eradicate Al-Qaida. The Kurds are moving to cement control of oil-rich Kirkuk and expand into Iraqi Arab provinces.

Of that other war over which he has assumed command, Gen. Petraeus says: "Obviously the trends in Afghanistan have been in the wrong direction. ... You cannot kill or capture your way out of an insurgency that is as significant as the one in Iraq, nor, I believe, as large as the one that has developed in Afghanistan."

"We can't kill our way to victory," adds Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs. We are "running out of time."

Mullen earlier said he's "not convinced we're winning it in Afghanistan."

The British commander, Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith, is even gloomier. The British people, he says, should not expect a "decisive military victory. ... We're not going to win this war. It's about reducing it to a manageable level of insurgency that's not a strategic threat and can be managed by the Afghani army."

Carleton-Smith is euphoric alongside Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, ambassador in Kabul, who is quoted in a letter to the prime minister as saying NATO strategy in Afghanistan is "doomed to fail."

Before either a President Obama or McCain sends 10,000 more troops into Afghanistan, he should conduct a review as to whether this war is winnable, and at what cost in blood, money and years.

Afghanistan is the longest war in U.S. history. Why have we not yet won? First, because we lack the forces. In World War I, we put 2 million men in France in 18 months. In World War II, 16 million served, with 12 million in uniform at war's end. Today, we have 31,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

Why so few troops? Because, despite what Americans say, few truly believe the survival of the Hamad Kharzai regime is vital to our security or that we would be in mortal peril should the Taliban return. Indeed, Petraeus says we should seek "reconciliation," presumably with the more moderate of the Taliban.

Converting enemies into allies with bribes or access to power may not be as dramatic as a Marine flag-raising on Mount Suribachi. But if reconciliation can end these wars successfully -- assure us neither nation is used as a base camp for terror -- would that be unacceptable? As Sun Tzu wrote, the greatest victories are those won without fighting.

For America's great wars, MacArthur and Eisenhower were the right generals. For today's wars, where the threat is not mortal and there will be no surrender signing in a railway car at Compiegne or on the deck of a battleship Missouri, Petraeus seems the right man -- and appears to have no need of an Eisenhower jacket or corncob pipe.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Agree with Ranger
Once again, just a great article Pat. Thanks.

Define Victory
Victory is achieved when one (a) reduces enemy capabilities and (b) renders them harmless.

Both Afghanistan and Iraq have reduced enemy capabilities. The former is no longer the kind of privileged sanctuary for our enemies that is once was. The latter is developing a socio-political culture and means of governance
amenable to us and our way of life. That is a revolutionary development in Arabia and most beneficial.

The reduction has definitely been started. To render harmless is going to take more time in Iraq and some alterations in Afghanistan. Big deal. WE are up to both tasks if our nerve does not fail us.

By The Way
Acording to data gleaned from the Congressional research service:

During the 8 years of the Clinton administration, 14,107 US military personnel died.

During 7 years of George Dubya, 7,932 bought the farm. This year, probably 1000 or less will be added.

It is obvious that George W. is an infinitely better Commander-in-Chief than his predecessor.

If you like dead GIs, shout "Obamahu Akbar" and vote Democrat. You will get more of what you like, never fear.

If you are normal, then McCain/Palin is the way to go. (Especially the second half, AKA The Distaff Side.)


Pat writes:
But if reconciliation can end these wars successfully -- assure us neither nation is used as a base camp for terror -- would that be unacceptable? As Sun Tzu wrote, the greatest victories are those won without fighting.
============

Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
Abraham Lincoln

There was never any chance
for "victory" in an Islamic environment by a declining Western power.

cold, hard reality has set in.
Chuck's 5:31 sums it up.

As Buchanan correctly notes on Iraq, the pivotal issues will be whether any Shia-based government can reconcile with Iraqi Sunni insurgents(Sons of Iraq)we have been training and arming, and whether the Kurds in north Iraq will be satisfied with de facto autonomy within their provinces(or will demand creation of their own state). Kurdish flags fly in Erbil, Kurd's provincial capital...not the national flag of Iraq.

Add to that the fact Iran holds more sway among Iraqi Shias in the south than does the Baghdad government.

On Afghanistan, it is little more than a narco-state("state" may be the wrong term..."territory" is probably better suited), in which Karzai's government is increasingly seen as corrupt and incompetent.

But the real focus should be on Pakistan, where anti-American sentiment is running at historic high levels.

In this environment, radical Islamists can and are gaining ground.

At any rate, the arrogant confidence exuded by neocons in thinking they could fundamentally alter centuries of tradition within the Muslim world has been abandoned.

And given restraints imposed by new financial and economic realities, we simply can't conduct any more naive and half-baked socio/economic experiments in democracy on the Muslim world.

We no longer can afford it.

MCAMNESTY'S ONE LAST LAST SURGE
I thought we had "won" in Krakistan. Not so fast! The Soviet Union was there for 10 years and lost. But hothead neo-con globalist sellouts like McAmnesty can hardly wait to send more Americans to die. And they issue stern warnings against premature evacuation not being in our national interest, which has not been defined. With no way to pay for "more wars, many more wars" and "I'm gonna draft ya, ya little jerk!" Remind me why we are there in the first place--to protect the poppy crop? All the while McAmnesty leaves the Mexican border wide open to allow the unconstitutional and devastating invasion of our once beautiful country by over 30 MILLION illegal aliens (with their subprime mortgages) and terrorists, with another 100 MILLION coming in under his neo-con globalist amnesty, chain migration, and North American Union scheme. Do you really think only nannies, gardeners, leprosy, and fecal tomatoes are coming across that border? The terrorists are HERE, McMoron!

Bring our brave but overextended and exhausted troops home and do some nation rebuilding HERE! Before it is too late.

Buchanan for president
Having read two of his books, "The Death of the West" and "Where the Right Went Wrong," it seems to me that Pat Buchanan is one of the few both highly intelligent and also profoundly insightful political thinkers we have in America. His columns always reflect a clear, mature grasp of the realities at hand. He would make an excellent candidate for POTUS in 2012 because he is not about to get us into any more foolish wars, and he understands the many threats we face in our struggle for national survival.

The Everlasting War
We can only mount a holding action until Islam undergoes an Enlightenment like militant Christianity and really becomes a peaceful religion, not one that requires submission of every human being.

America today is like Sheriff Robert Ryan in an old western movie who when asked to assist in a gun battle against the bad guys refuses, saying, "I have no stomach for this anymore."

We can no longer fight the centuries-long war against Islam with conventional warfare. Americans will not accept the casualties, not believing that a dead American soldier will have 72 virgins in an after life.

From the dawn of history and civilization we've learned we always have to be prepared to sacrifice for our freedoms. Nothing is changed: that is the terrible bargain that civilization, and freedom, demands.

Our nuclear power is the ultimate trump card and we may have to use it or lose it.


Clauswitz
Karl von Clauswitz' "Principles of War" are as valid today as they were when they were written. Wars are won by audacity not timidity. Never try to defeat an enemy without shedding blood; you cannot win by a surgical removal of the enemy in "ones and twos", war must be prosecuted massively to destroy the enemies "Will To Fight". A soldier in the field must be more concerned by the fate of his loved ones than his own fate. Devastating reports from home is the most effective means to force a soldier to question his mission and his part in that mission.What has a soldier accomplished if he is alive but all he believes in and cherished has been destroyed? It is hard to place fire on an enemy when looking back over your shoulder for the messenger of doom. We have wrapped ourselves in the blanket of a misguided civility in the Middle East--war is not civil, it is brutal to the point of scarring the victor. Afghanistan continues after 8 years, our light for victory is dimming, timidity fueled by the false application of technology is the root. We have forgotten what it takes to win. Clauswitz said, “Given the same amount of intelligence, timidity will do a thousand times more damage than audacity”.

MacArthur DID have the stomach
for using nukes..if memory serves, it was that stance that helped get him fired. He criticized Truman for taking it off the table, I believe.

The only thing the islamos fear and respect is power, I venture that Mccain with his military background scares the shiite out of them whereas in bambi they see another carter and we all know how well THAT went.

We cannot do anything that emboldens these animals and we cannot allow Iran or any other islamic entity to get a nuke, to do so will bring on devasation in our country and Israel that is un-imaginable.

How anyone could even think about electing someone with ties to terrorists of any kind and with zero experience in times like these boggles the mind.

D in Il is entirely correct, if the 5th column islamos in this country ever think they could gain the upper hand, we will all live like the Israelis do, never knowing if a trip to the mall will be your last act on this earth.

One thing that keeps their heads down IMO is that we Americans have privately owned firearms and will use them to rid this land of anything remotely islamic if they attempt anything radical...they prefer to take over under the PC rules with their boy bambi.

Freagile Institutions
The decisions in Iraq are increasingly being made by the Iraqi's, not by us. It is they, after all, who are determined to get the US to agree to timetables, which is what the clerics and their public want to see. Further, institutions a few years old whose power is based on the clerics are, by definition, very fragile. In a few years, however we think in the US, our forces will be gone. Only after that, will we know what is left - or whether it is durable. Iraq is still a country whose views are arabic. They support Palestine, Hamas, and Hezbollah, not the Israelis, and have deep clerical ties to the Irani's. The basis of their civil law is the Koran. To assume that we know whether or not they will become increasingly Islamic in their enforcement of laws and their views, or trend more to the west, is simply to guess. Having a somewhat Democratic government whose parties and laws are more Islamic than Western does not guarantee that they will have views that are any different than that of their neighbors. In the end, the clerics in Iraq do not like Western Culture nor views, as it directly threatens their power and their view of the world.

We have enabled them to establish some very fragile institutions. But those institutions can be manipulated as they desire. Only after the US is gone, will we actually begin to see how this plays out. If the Iraqi leadership views Iran and Syria as allies, not as enemies, and if they adopt the standard Arab line on Israel, as they already have, we may have done little more than substituted an Islamic State for Saddam, and empowered the Shia's at the expense of the Sunni's. Which is the probable outcome.

Sistania, Hakim, Sadr and the rest are the most powerful men in Iraq, and they are clerics - not democrats, and all have deep ties to Iran. We should not forget this.

A few things
Afghanistan is not America's longest war. The US has been in Afghanistan for 7 years--the US fought the Revolution for 8--1775-1783 and was in Vietnam for far longer from the defeat of the French in 1954 until the fall of Saigon in 1975. Even if you discount this, the US began outright military operations against the north in 1965 and even if you discount the period of March 1973 until April 1975, the US still was in an active war in Vietnam from at least March 1965 until March 1973, a full 8 years which is again longer than the US has been in Afghanistan.

Seawolf:

The reason MacArthur was fired was because he wanted to extend the war beyond Korea and attack Chinese targets, Truman wanted to contain the war to Korea. The two disagreed over this and he was fired because of it--primarily because "he went over Truman's head" by sending letters to leaders in Congress over Truman's Korea policy and sending demands to the PRC--something that was beyond his paygrade.

When Esienhower became president, he implied that the US would consider using nuclear weapons to end the stand off in Korea and he again did so in response to the PRC threats to Kinmen (ROC-held island off Xiamen, Fujian, PRC). In 1960 during the JFK-Nixon debates, Nixon accused JFK of taking nuclear weapons off the table in regards to Kinmen (Jinmen) and Qumoy (Mazu).


THERE WILL ALWAYS BE WAR

.....As long as man roams the Earth ...there has never been a time in History when several wars were not raging somewhere ...perpetual peace is a fools' errand ...and it appears to be GW's ...

.....Bush should have deposed Saddam and replaced him with a pro-American leader and got out ...instead he embarked on this Nation building fantasy ...this decision alone would have been enough to doom his legacy ...

.....The only thing GW had going for him was a good economy ...now with the market collapse as he is about to leave office, he can leave as a total failure ...

.....His failure of leadership damaged the Republican brand ...he had a chance to cement the gains of Reagan Conservatism and he blew it ...and that chance may never come again .....COLOSSUS

Iraq
"The latter is developing a socio-political culture and means of governance
amenable to us and our way of life."

Much of Iraq is Shia controlled and the US in return for help in reduction in the violence has basically allowed the imposition of Iran-like social controls. Much of southern Iraq and elsewhere has little to do with the US way of life. Just look at what is going on with the CLCs many of which are de facto religious-based militas. I don't think theocracy is amenable to the American way of life, it does though make life easier for the US military in Iraq, but those are two different things.

ColinCody
Outside of being totally wrong on economics, having what some would see racist attitudes, not a very clear understanding of history, cozing up to evil dictators like Hitler, and assuming facts not in evidence (such as if the UK and France had let Hitler invade Poland, he would have turned his guns on the Soviets and thus end two threats at once--Nazism and Communism. Churchill opinion of this theory? "Feeding the Crocodile in the hope it will eat you last").

An isolationist and anti-international trade. The US hasn't had someone like that since well Hoover. Yes, sounds good to me. Go, Pat, Go!

Getting Senile
I rarely read Buchanan but the headline caught my attention.

he is supposed to be "Brilliant" and he certainly had better grammer and vocabulary then I do. However, I can do math.

He says "Afghanistan is the longest war in U.S. history." THIS IS AN ABSURD claim.

US revolutionary war was from 1775-1983. And therefore longer then current conflict.

Viet Nam War was fought and had American Advisors from 1959 to 1975, Even if the majority of Combat troops were there from 63-73 thats still longer.

Don't even mention the length (or cost) of the 'Cold War' with Russia that lasted Decades.

Then to claim Korea was not a victory was also absurd. We never intended to "DOMINATE" North Korea. it was not a war of Agrression. It was a war, much like the First Gulf War, to restore an international boundry that the North had violated.

The result is a great partner for us and freedom, prosperity and Democracy for millions of South Koreans. While we deplore conditions in North Korea we certainly have no Imperial intent towards that country and even during the war we did not.

We just wanted to restore peace and in doing so we achieved victory.

After the Mexican-Amrican war of 1846-1848 we didn't annex all of Mexico!

While it is true that we need the next President to look at the costs and benifits of EVERYWHERE we have troops overseas, the point of Mr Buchannen's article is rubbish.

Oilpatch Mercenary, you've been duped
"During the 8 years of the Clinton administration, 14,107 US military personnel died.
During 7 years of George Dubya, 7,932 bought the farm. This year, probably 1000 or less will be added."

This urban legend has already been proven false...get a life!

According to the Congressional Research Service (here's the link, since you omitted it: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf)...
During the whole 8 years of the Clinton administration, 1 military person died as a result of hostilities and another 75 died as a result of terrorist attacks.
During the first six years of the Bush administration, 2,596 troops died from hostilities and 55 from terrorist attacks.

History will show how inept Bush was. And, if you want more of the same, then vote McCain!

to akagi, oilaptch and Warrior
To Akagi, I Wrote my post on longest war without reading his post and correction of the article.

Glad to see I am not only one who can do math.,

To oilpatch,
I would question your numbers of military Deaths under Clinton and Bush since you haven't given a referencable source. Those numbers seem high under Clinton and low under Pres Bush. I would love to evaluate your sources.

To Warrior you claim "Never try to defeat an enemy without shedding blood;" Didn't we defeat the USSR with a barest minimum of Blood shed? Didn't Martin Luther King JR defeat his enemies with non-violent protest?

Now I am a carreer Military officer and I know that at times War is justified and decisive victory on the battlefield is a large part of it. I am no Pacifist by any means. But we should ALWAYS try to defeat our enemies without bloodshed first! War is a LAST resort not a FIRST response, in my opinion.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

How can any one feel safe?
How can any one feel safe and secure with Obama/Biden?
Obama has never served.
Biden had 5 deferrements for Viet Nam.

I would much rather have a Military Mom and a Veteran taking those 3AM calls.

And our troops deserve experience in their commander in chief.


Tinsldr2
Like you I too have retired as an Army Officer but you perplex me. Martin Luther King was not in a shooting war and neither was Russia except by proxy in Vietnam. King was in a war of ideas and freedom--he won that war. We did fight Russia's proxy in Vietnam and we lost for the same reasons I discussed in my blog. Surely as a career military person, you can see the difference between the application of wartime principles with peacetime/cold war principles. I knew when I was in Vietnam and soldiers were dieing, we could win the war but I also knew we would not, if we did not apply the correct principles. We didn't.

Jacqueline
Lookie here now.....

I'll put up Cheney's four or five student deferments against Biden's, any day of the week!!

I don't much like either Obama or McCain.

But whether one served or not, is not relevant.

FDR never served in the military yet was president, was commander in chief, during our nation's greatest war, save perhaps the civil war.

Tim and parser
Tim , you would make me laugh with your revisionist history if it wasn't such a serious topic.


Do you call the family of Capt. Harry G. Cramer Jr. who died Oct. 21, 1957 near Nha Trang, South Vietnam, from an explosion "parsers"?

According to official records 416 American Military died in Viet Nam starting in 1956 prior to the Marine Landing. Do you think they were tourists?

source at http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-stat istics.html#year

And as for Parsing the Treaty of Peace with Japan was signed in 1951 although they attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941.

And as for not counting us a country from the signing of the Declaration I would consider that "parsing" more then anything.

In the Declaration it says "We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled,"

Tim is correct in so far as our current form of Gov was not established until the Constitution was ratified, but as of the day the declaration was ratified we became a united group of states acting with a single intrest and purpose and we had a single Federal Army commanding over State Militias.

US declaration at:http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/index.htm
.


Definition of parser from free online dictionary:
parse (pärs)
v. parsed, pars·ing, pars·es
v.tr.
1. To break (a sentence) down into its component parts of speech with an explanation of the form, function, and syntactical relationship of each part.
2. To describe (a word) by stating its part of speech, form, and syntactical relationships in a sentence.
3.
a. To examine closely or subject to detailed analysis, especially by breaking up into components

No Tim
We can go all the way back to 1956. The first US troops killed by eneny action was in July of 1959. Or is the Vietnam War Memorial "Parsers" as well? And Under US Law, the end date is given as May 7, 1975. So that is what? 15 years, 10 months or so? So Afghanistan would reach this point what? August 2016? About the time Obama is finishing his second term I expect.

Warrior and Clauswitz
I Just wanted to make the point that "bloodshed" isn't always necessary. In dealing with Iraq we are prepared to shed blood, especially theirs but because we stand ready to do so, we gain more by showing restraint.

In this case I am thinking particlualy of our dealings with the Sons of Iraq (the former awakening councils). We gained more by winning them to our side then by kicking their behinds (although it was only because they acknowledged we were kicking their behinds that they started cooperating).

In Viet Nam the great American Service men did a phenomenal job of destroying the enemy militarily. Yet a premature pull out of American troops led to defeat. A military Victory does not always mean a National Victory.

I agree with you that it was the Soldier worried about what was going on in the home front that was a large problem in Viet Nam. And it was the homefront that cost us our victory.

There are times for all out war, and there are times for a judicious use of force.

The key is NAtional will.

Thanks for your service. im late for a meeting but wanted to reply.

On Akagi's assertion
that McArthur had plans to carry war into China.

Since Mac was an excellent general, he may have been able to inflict a decisive defeat on Mao--and possibly, the Chinese would have been able to overthrow that evil despot and North Korea would have been as progressive today as the South.

Jacqueline
"And our troops deserve experience in their commander in chief."

When was Reagan in the US military again? In the reserves, never served overseas in WWII.

Carter and Ford were in the Navy and both weren't exactly top-rate as it comes to their presidency--both Carter and Ford presiding over humilating American military diasters--Desert One and the fall of Saigon. Truman was a veteran and allowed his Secretary of State to basically give Kim a green light to invade the ROK.

FDR wasn't in the military and Lincoln only served for a short while in the militia during the Black Hawk War.

How many deferments Biden got is not really an issue nor is military service an indicator how well of a Commander-in-Chief one will be.






We do?
"We know what Buchanan meant."

I don't. He claims Afghanistan is America's longest war when it clearly is not--even if you take the most conservative standard--Vietnam goes from February 6, 1965 (when the US was attacked by the NLF at Pleiku) until January 15, 1973 (the date Nixon ordered the US to cease all offensive operations). That is 95 months, 22 days. Afghanistan started on October 7, 2001 and today is October 7, 2008--exactly 84 months. So, for it to be the longest war using the most restrictive standard--it needs to last another 11 months, 22 days. But to be fair the actual length of the war in Vietnam is from July 8, 1959 until May 15, 1975 that is 15 years, 1 month, 23 days. So he only needs to wait 8 years, 1 month and 23 days from today--what is that November 30, 2016?

Jerabaub, usually i agree, but
this time, you're off. Using FDR as a positive example is always wrong, especially here on TH. He lured us into WWII. He made big government into what it is today. He gave away east europe to uncle joe stalin et al. in short, he sukt.

I agree with Jerseyvet from 7:21 am. This and whole war against jihadistislam needs to be primarily a war for minds and hearts, although ready to slam back hard at a moment's notice, as we did at the beginning of afgahn., looking for al quaeda.

Jerseyvet said islam needs to have enlightenment as West did. pope Benedict is trying to do the same thing, in a soft, subtle way, pointing out how their 'only god's will' is irrational, and that they need to connect back with their more humanist scholars of the middle ages. US woefully unprepared for this kind of intelligence war, as Card. Karol Wojtyla, later pope JPII, did in softening up Poland/Ussr. not enough kids study arabic, and since USA overly secular, we can't comprehend why the 19 would fly the planes into buildings etc.

Tim
Tell that to the US government then who counts the war from July 3, 1965 until March 28, 1973 so that is 7 years, 9 months, 6 days. Or how about the Vietnam Memorial then? Which as I stated in an earlier post would put the length at nearly 16 years. Only in Pat's twisted mind and in the empty heads of his mindless myrmidons is the war in Afghanistan longer.

Also one could point out that the war in Afghanistan is not very different from the Cold War and that lasted from 1947 until 1989--42 years--6 times longer than Afghanistan.

Explain to me how?
"He lured us into WWII."

As no fan of FDR, but the US got into WWII because it cut off Japanese oil and it cut off Japanese oil because Japan invaded Indochina. If FDR had done nothing about that Japan would have simply kept moving south. Hawks wanted him to be much tougher on Japan, but he didn't support the oil embargo until July 1941. So I can't see how you can say he lured the US into the war.


svpallava
Yes and he may have caused the now nuclear armed Soviets to get involved and caused WWIII too so Truman was probably wise at keeping the war in Korea and firing Dougie. The reason the ROC troops weren't used in the war (Chiang offered) was the fear of the Chinese getting involved and having the war spread into the Taiwan Strait. The US put the US Navy into the strait to keep both sides contained. Chiang could no longer attack the mainland nor Mao Taiwan--but Jinmen and Mazu were fair game as both continued to shell each other from there for years.

Tim and Smirk
This officer that served proudly as an elisted infantryman under Pres Reagan, the best President of my life time, and who served in Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Two tours In Iraq will be in Phila Pa on Thanksgiving weekend.

I only know what Mr Buchanan said not what he "meant". What he said was clearly wrong.

And don't forget we were in Bosnia for ten years also. (I was there with 1st AD as part of IFOR in 1996).

Secondly, I ALWAYS put America First, I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. (from our current code of conduct).

Where does your hatred of Isreal come into the equation Tim? I see Tim brought it up but no relation to the poor article by Mr Buchanan?

Of course I put America before any other country or interest. I currently wear a US flag right above my 3 ID combat patch on my right shoulder and the US flag is flying outside my house.

But all that aside, while we do need to constantly watch how and where are forces are deployed overseas, and what their missions and roles are and the strategy they use to accomplish those missions, Mr Buchanan's article makes little point. (besides the technical inaccuracy I and others pointed out).

Tinsldr2
"Then to claim Korea was not a victory was also absurd. We never intended to "DOMINATE" North Korea."

The US did intent to do that after October 9, 1950. From then until the last days of October, US and ROK forces rushed north--with ROK forces reaching the Yalu Jiang and American forces within sight of the Chinese border. So in general, what the US/UN was doing was little different than what Kim had tried--unify the Koreas by force.


The bombing of Pearl Harbor started WW2!
Of course the USA embargoed the Japanese from Oil and Steel. They were trying to take over the whole Pacific. So that gave the Japanese a reason to bomb Pearl! Baloney! The prob was that we in the USA weren't prepared for any war at all. This after watching Germany and Japan conquoring Aisa and Europe. But all we did was sell stuff! Thank God we were great at building a great force and that was FDR and the people who advised him. Pat Buck should learn his history.

Sam
The US didn't get all that concerned until Japan went into Indochina. And I wonder how long the US would wait if its entire oil supply was cut off? Japan waited 5 months. If you want to go back far enough, you can say the US got into WWII because of the Luguoqiao Shibian (Marco Polo Bridge Incident) or the Jiushiba shibian (Manchuria Incident) or the incursion into Indochina, but the proximate cause of America's entry into WWII was the embargo which lead to Pearl Harbor as Japan was unwilling to accept the US demands for turning the oil back on. Perhaps if Prince Konoe had remained in place as PM, war could have been avoided as he had tried through his second term as PM. Of course the US had its own hard-liners like Hull, so even with Konoe instead of Tojo, seems both were doomed to war.


Akagi conflicting accounts of Korea
The Truman Library lists conflicting accounts of what our US and UN intentions were during the Korean War.

Examples are: Deputy Ambassador to the United Nations Ernest Gross

"That was a basic resolution which stated the aims of the United Nations, which included - as had been the aim of the United Nations since 1946 - that there should be a free, unified, independent Korea, with democratic institutions and a government selected by popular plebiscite under U.N. supervision. That was the program. But it was never the U.S. position, as relayed to us at the U.S. mission to the U.N., that it was the purpose of the United States (or of the United Nations as far as we were concerned) to unify all Korea by force. It was explicitly stated to us, by instructions from the State Department, that this was not our intention."

or General Douglas MacArthur

"My mission was to clear out all North Korea, to unify it and to liberalize it."


or Special Assistant to the Secretary of State Lucius Battle
" think the great weakness of the U.S. government's position at the time was that it wasn't clear. It wasn't clear to those of us within the government and I doubt it was totally clear to [the commander in the field, General Douglas] MacArthur."

source:http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/korea/large/koreapt4_4.htm

Korean War was a victory for the US and the people of South Korea in my opinion.


We didn't lose in Korea...but..we lost
in Vietnam! At least there is a South Korea. And now we even trade with the commies of Vietnam. We should have learned from this in Iraq. We should have known what a bee's nest Iraq was, and Afghanistan too. We fought this war against Terrorism all wrong. Not a soldier should have gone to inavde these lands. Special forces, planes and navy alone could have made Ossama and Saddam miserable without an invasion and the loss of over 4 thousand troops and thousands wounded mentally and physically. We are being ruled over by a bunch of Buffoons in both parties. God should only save us from the extreme right and left! I include Pat B.

JMartin
On FDR, I agree.

He was a naive president and never understood the nature of Stalin.

My only point is service in the military does not necessarily translate into being a fine commmander in chief of the nation.

Jimmy Carter was a naval officer who served on a submarine while in the Navy...it was an attack submarine and may have even been a nuclear one..yet I suspect one or two people on this board are inclined to think he was not an especially great Commander In Chief.

You are right about FDR.

Perhaps that was not a very good example...altho he did rally the nation in time of war.

But I accept your point on his naivete.

On the Muslim situation, I think "hearts and minds" is the way to go...and the military option will be increasingly irrelevant.

When we try to have a military operation in Afghanistan, we end up alienating the Afghans.

The whole notion of democratizing the Muslim world is infused with Western concepts as to how Muslims ought to comport their societies and governments, and as such ignores their traditions, heritage and Islamic values.

Muslims must arrive at solutions that work for them.

I suspect Islamic law and proclamations of tribal elders will wield most authority there...for the forseeable future.

where is Charlie Wilson when we need him
Dear Mr Buchanan, your point is well taken, and I personally wish Charlie Wilson had left the Russians in Afghanistan- to deal with their problems,and thus the Taliban wouldn't have taken over when they left to fill the void!

But now we are in and we must make the best of it, for to leave that country now, would leave the Afghanis to the same fate we did when we left Vietnam. Where over a million people died at the hands of the revengeful Communist Viet Cong.

I don't know why it has fallen to our country to be the savior of the world, starting in WW one when the dough boys went in to save France. (a lot of good it did us!) Then in W.W 2- again to save Europe where millions had died at the hands of the Nazis.

I wish I knew where the answer lays, and I pray that our next president will have the know-how, the wisdom to lead our country in a just and right path. At no moment in our history have we needed such a wise man, and I don't think its Hussein OBAMA!!!

Akagi, Jerabaub
Akagi, although there are some who argue that FDR knew about the coming Pearl Harbor, I can't believe that even he would be that cynical, like the idiots who say Bush was part of 9/11. However, I think he was at least grossly negligent, and could have done more to help the Chinese to defend themselves against Japan, rather than letting Mao and all the communists get the credit. Also, from what i have read FDR often violated neutrality in favor of England, virtually baiting the nazis to attack us.

Jerabaub, thanks for the kind words, and I agree with you that military service is not a pre-requisite to be a good potus. Of course the best was the 1st, GWashington. Andrew Jaxon was horrible, Indian slaughterer and agressive imperialist, and worst of all, co-founder of the demon-crat party with Jefferson. But you cited Lincoln positively. He was probably the most intelligent and beautiful writer as potus. But i think the civil war was, in sum, a bad thing. too many killed; ends did not justify the means.

JMartin
Once the US was in the war it did much to help both the NRA (National Revolutionary Army) and KMT as well as the PLA. During the war either before or after the US got involved, it was the NRA and the warlords that did much of the heavily lifting against the Japanese in China, the PLA for the most part did little against the Japanese and only people that credit the PLA for Japan's defeat in China is the PLA and CCP. Anyone that actually knows anything as it honest knows it was the NRA and the warlords that did the fighting.

You and I agree on Lincoln.


Thanks, Pat ...
... for speaking the truth. Keep them coming. OsiSpeaks.com

As Pat's head hits the floor...

Patrick J. Buchanan, good and noble Conservative fighter that he is, has a very weak spot in his thinking about our war against Islam. (That's right Islam.)

He has it lodged in his brain that America can survive and thrive as an island in the world,
and live in peace with several million people that will kill as many of us as they can as soon as they can get the technological items to build a nuclear device. It's merely a matter of time before they do that.

Even as the Islamic terrorists cut Pat's head off and just before it hits the floor, he will be heard to say the words "jihad is no real threat to America."

But that's alright, these "compassionate" and
oh so "peace loving" Western democracies are gonna get a big wake up call from what is coming down the road.

Just be patient. One morning you'll wake up and turn on your TV set, and you'll gradually realize that what you're seeing and hearing will change your life and your attitude forever about the righteous need to wage TOTAL WAR against our enemies who have just....finally at last, given us the reason to really "get it on"
big time without worring about these "innocent"
civilians etc...

Unless of course, heh heh, you don't mind dying...and don't mind your loved one's dying...

And even if you're pacifist enough to feel that way, heh heh, you're gonna be out-numbered by the American voting public...say about 300,000,000 to one and maybe a dozen or so of your wimpy friends who "just love all humanity"
and would sing Kumbaya amd We are The World while their heads were being cut off.


Wrong Pat...wrong again...

Every single one of the experts that study and analize the threat of Islamic jihad against America agree that it is just a matter of time before there is an Islamic-jihad-delivered
nuclear device exploded in a large America city.

It's rather silly, but a vast majority of the American electrate wants to wait UNTILL AFTER that occurs before they can get their "conscience" to go along with a World War II type style of fighting, which was fighting until we heard the magic words, "Please tell us what you want us to do and we will do it, if you will just please stop killing us."

To bad several million Americans are going to have to die before the rest of America decides to stop "playing nice" with our enemies.




Oilpatch Mercenary
This guy is dead on. I agree with him. America has to finish the job. We have to render all our enemies harmless.

Tim and Combat experience and Isreal
On a personal note I am a field grade officer and that of course means my job is mostly desk. I am 45 years old and don't run around kicking in doors anymore, never claimed to. I was a young infantryman in 1983 to 1992 but those days are past me. As an officer I did volunteer to deploy 5 times, to do my part and you?

I have been on been on multiple convoys in Iraq, frequent helicopter flights to include both day and night flights, under mortar fire more time then I can count and more small arms fire then I like to think about. And You?

Like I said I certainly put America first but we do have allies in the World and allies are important.

Our strongest ally in the world for the last 75 years or so has been England. They have been the one most by our side but I am not an "england firster" I jsut recognize they are our strongest ally

When I was a company commander in Kosovo I was on the road about 5 days a week and visited my troops based with the Poles, who turned in to a good ally, the Greeks, and then in the city of Pristina there were a host of other nations. I also had a team with the Russians but they were no Ally.

I also believe our strongest ally in the mid-east is Isreal. Again what is your point in raising the question?

I notice Tim says his brother served and I thank his brother for his service. We need to give more credit to Viet nam Vets.

I notice Tim doesnt talk about HIS service. Now if he had a medical deferement then thats fine, we all do what we can, but of course he could just have a yellow streak deferement.

Victory has been achieved.
A slight of hand to erradicate the US Constitution, has been accomplished and our republic form of government gone and now a true oligarchy rules in the open.

I would call it a victory not known before. We have become, what we once despised.

Tim
You do understand that calling me a Taiwan firster is not an insult to me, but a badge of honor? But I liked your other name for me better--Taiwan Tiger, but we can even improve that maybe like the terms for Tomoyuki Yamashita (Tiger of Malaya) or Masaharu Homma (Tiger of Manila). So maybe the Tiger of Taiwan or if you'd like it more localized the Tiger of Kaohsiung or the Tiger of Tainan.

Pat indeed said that Afghanistan was America's longest war and point me and others have showed as incorrect. What does your brother have to do with Pat's article or the fact that Vietnam was a longer war? And Oriental is a geocentric term--Asia is to your west, not east.

Neocon:

So Korea was a terrible strategic move? So the US should have let Kim with Mao and Stalin's blessing run over the ROK? Abandon the Truman Doctrine? Then what? Let them walk into Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaya and Singapore? India? Western Europe? Where would you draw the line and decide that the communists had advanced far enough? When they entered NYC? And they call me a troll for the DPRK?


Israel, the non-ally.
"I also believe our strongest ally in the mid-east is Isreal. Again what is your point in raising the question?"

That may be true because the US has no allies in the Middle East. Israel sold to the PLAAF the Python III--an advanced air-to-air missile that the US helped Israel develop and the US was unaware of the sales until China's J8's began buzzing the EP-3 Orion flights in the South China Sea in early 2001 and the US crews saw the things on the planes. Israel sold China information on the US Patriot system, helped it develop its cruise missile program and helped it develop the replacement for the J8, the J10 which was based on Israel's Lavi fighter, sold or bartered the information Pollard gave them to the Soviets and tried to sell the Phalcon radar system to China--that being so offensive the US put so much pressure on Israel it dropped the sale.

When the Python III's came to light in 2001, Buchannan wrote that the US should not ever again sell Israel a single bullet--I agree 100%. Never happen though.

Israel is no ally, it has more in common with China and Saudi Arabia than say the United Kingdom. At times, interests of Israel and the US may intersect--keeping Iran from getting the bomb, just as the interests of China and the US may intersect--stopping the DPRK's nuclear program--but neither China nor Israel is an ally of the US, the sooner Americans, including Jewish Americans come to realize this, the better.

What this article has to do with Israel though is beyond me, but seems it is connected somehow according to Tim.

You are right Tim
Even if he had not said that Afghanistan was America's longest war I still would have found something to criticize him for--this "...or that we would be in mortal peril should the Taliban return." The last time they were in power they let their territory be used by Al Qaeda where it planned and implemented 9/11. That statement is like saying the US wouldn't be in mortal peril if the Kempeitai were running Japan in 1953 or the Nazi Party was back in charge in Germany in 1953--totally mindless.

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