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Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Pushing Russia Into the Cold
by Pat Buchanan
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A year after taking power, in June 1934, Adolf Hitler made his first visit abroad -- to his idol Benito Mussolini in Venice.

Babbling on incessantly about "Mein Kampf "and the Negroid strain in Mediterranean peoples, the Fuhrer made a dismal impression.

"What a clown this Hitler is," Mussolini told an aide.

Two weeks later, Hitler executed the Roehm purge and murdered scores of old Stormtrooper comrades. In late July, Austrian Nazis, attempting a coup, assassinated Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss, a friend of Mussolini whose wife and child were then his guests.

Il Duce ordered four divisions to the Brenner Pass and flew to Vienna to vent his rage and disgust with Hitler. He called a summit at Stresa with Britain and France to agree on military action should Hitler make any new move in violation of Versailles.

At the time, however, Il Duce was also plotting revenge on Abyssinia for a bloody border clash with Italian Somaliland.

Mussolini thought his Allies would understand if he invaded the Ogaden to add an African colony to his new Roman Empire, just as the British and French had so often done in previous decades.

Mussolini miscalculated. Morally outraged, Britain and France went before the League of Nations and had sanctions imposed on Italy that were too weak to defeat her but punitive enough to insult her.

Friendless, isolated and condemned as an aggressor by Europe, Italy and Mussolini had nowhere to turn now but Hitler's Germany.

Thus, over the fate of an Abyssinian slave empire, Britain drove her faithful World War I ally into the arms of a Nazi dictator Mussolini loathed and had wished to confront beside Britain. And Abyssinia was overrun.

Are we making the same mistake in the Caucasus?

Mikheil Saakashvili started this war with his barrage attack and occupation of South Ossetia. Russia's war of retribution was far less violent or excessive than the U.S. bombing of Serbia for 78 days over Kosovo, or our unprovoked war on Saddam Hussein's Iraq, which has brought death to scores of thousands, or Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.

Yet, declared John McCain of Russia, "In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations." Even Dick Cheney must have guffawed.

Russia must get out now, adds Bush, for South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia. But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years, as he demands that Russia get out of the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, which Russia has occupied for two weeks?

As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked.

Russians died in Saakashvili's attack, as American died in Pancho Villa's raid on New Mexico in 1916. We sent "Black Jack" Pershing, future Gen. George Patton and a U.S. army 300 miles into Mexico to kill Villa. Was this proportionate?

If we proceed on a course of isolating Russia from the West, keeping her out of the World Trade Organization, throwing her out of the G-8 and ending cooperation with NATO, where do we think Russia will go? Where did Il Duce go, when he was excommunicated from the West?

Condi Rice compares Vladimir Putin's action in Georgia to Leonid Brezhnev's crushing of the Prague Spring in 1968. She raced to Warsaw to ink a deal to put 10 anti-missile missiles and U.S. Patriot missiles manned by Americans into Poland.

Does the Stanford provost have any idea where the end of this road lies, upon which she and Bush have started the United States?

What do we do if Russia responds to our Patriots in Poland with the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system in Iran and Syria?

If the United States intends to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and arm them to fight Russia, why should Russia not dissolve the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe and move her tank armies into Belarus and up to the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?

Would we send U.S. troops into the Baltic republics to signal that we will fight Russia to honor our NATO war guarantees? Which NATO allies would fight alongside us against a nuclear-armed Russia?

If we bring Ukraine into NATO, what do we do if Russified east Ukraine secedes and Russia sends troops to back the rebels? Do we send warships into Russia's bathtub, the Black Sea, and commit to fight as long as it takes to restore Ukraine's territorial integrity?

In March 1939, Britain pledged to declare war and fight Germany to the death to guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Poland. How did that one turn out for Britain and Poland?

Before we start down the road of isolating and encircling Russia with weak NATO allies, let us think through Gen. Petraeus' question in 2003 about Iraq, "Tell me, how does this thing end?"

But, then, these folks never seem to think anything through.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Ric/2
Now, we'll look at Lebanon. You know that Lebanon has a sizable Christian population? So there is more to this than taking an Islamist side. What Pat means here I believe is this. By the low standards that Bush set for Russia about disapportionate response the Israelis was overwhelming in terms of destruction. They didn't confine themselves to attempting to destroy Hezbollah, but went after the whole county. Israel knocked down every bridge and bombed targets far removed from Hezbollah. In short, they imposed collective guilt upon the entire nation and to add insult to injury in the last three days prior to the cease fire they fired or dropped thousands of cluster bombs, courtesy of Bush, all over the southern part of the country. I have nothing against the use of cluster bombs when they are used for a military purpose, i.e., an area suppression weapon. This was overkill meant to kill or maim as many people as possible when they went home.

I compare and contrast what Russia did with Israel and Pat makes a good point. There are people here hollering about the Russians using weapons like this and I don't doubt they did, but where I have seen this was against military targets. Pat is simply pointing out the double standard being applied here. Compared to what the Israelis did, the Russian response was restrained.

Ric/1
Good morning to you. I addressed this as well and because the software here stinks I'll repeat myself in more detail instead of having you looking through this mess for it.

Let's deal with the latter first, concerning Pat's paragraph about leaving the Golan Heights. When I read that I took it as a rhetorical point, that is, in the sense that Bush is always bringing up UN resolutions to justify his actions, as if folks like me really care about the UN. Buchanan is calling Bush a hypocrite, for what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If UN resolutions apply in one area, they should apply in all. Israel has numerous UN resolutions calling for them to leave the occupied territories. On the Golan Heights they have not only refused, but have added settlements. That is a violation of the UN charter I believe.

C. Ivanov/2
There is a load of information out there for those who are interested in the truth and here is a site full of stories concerning this and also who started this supreme act of stupidity.

http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008- 08-08T11%3A18%3A00-04%3A00&max-results=20

I make my case. Medved is dishonest as hell shouldn't be trusted on anything.
==
The person who writes that blog does a fine job assembling material. His first impression of this affair are incorrect. Here's a bonus link for you.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/0 8/14/AR2008081401360_pf.html

Saakashvili started this mess, the Russians finished it. I hope the Georgians dump this foul, tie chewing "leader".

C. Ivanov
The link is from me and I was impressed with the number of links. I wrote this on another thread and it fits here.
==
Actually, Saakashvili did and Medved knows this. Putin, on the other hand, did plan a reaction to any Georgian aggression and when they invaded, the Russians counterattacked. As I noted above I thought these incidents occurred on both sides and was primarily militias that were responsible. Unlike what goes on here, which is nothing more than the regurgitations of various neocon talk show hosts, I do my research and I don't blame the Russians for going in there.

While this is dishonest in a number of aspects, even the neocon Wall Street Journal glumly acknowleges who started this.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121824156547126077.html?mod =opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

If that isn't good enough for you, then how about this from Jane's?

http://www.janes.com/news/security/iwr/iwr080808_1_n.shtml

Here is the link for the article Medved left out above.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15ethnic.htm l?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

I wonder if he did so because of this?

"“We’re not a police force, we’re a military force,” said a Russian lieutenant colonel in response to a reporter’s question. “It’s not our job to do police work.”

Hmmm, he sounds like a former SecDef of this country that said not too long ago about how "freedom is messy" while another country was being looted and killings were going on and the military stood by doing nothing. In any event, it is their responsibility to maintain order.

"Still, there was some evidence that the Russian military might be making efforts in some places to stop the rampaging. A column of 12 men with their hands on their heads, several wearing uniforms, were marched into the Russian military base in Gori on Thursday afternoon. The identities of the men were unclear."

Reply to Akagi @ 2008/08/26 15:13
You wrote (about R.A.M.) "I think he meant that dual nationals aren't allowed to be dual nationals and also work for the government...".

If that's what R.A.M meant, that still confirms my original statement that he's wrong--as dual US-(insert other nation) citizens can work for government contractors or even government, so long as the job doesn't require high-level clearance.

I know now this is right
Constantine Ivanov - 11:56 PM EST
To Scout, final
There is no "honest disagreements":

====
ts:
You are a low life lying scum bucket,and do not have an honest bone in your miserable old body

Then go to
Hades you foul old devil.
Yes you ivan

To Scout, final
There is no "honest disagreements":
you dislike me, I dislike you.
Very much.
No disagreement.

Curtain is dropped.

Those self-proclaimed
talent American Patriots who keep insulting seem to not be brought by a stork but were found on a flea market...

Ah, I see it now clearly Ivonov
Constantine Ivanov writes: 11:27 PM EST
Subject: To Scout
Detailed explanation:

"Go f*** yourself" is a literate translation from a Russian saying that reads in English
"Go find yourself", which means "Do so that I have to look for you" or, in other words, "disappear!"

Is this what you want me to apologize for?
Stange...
OK. Don't disappear!
Is better now?

====
ts:
Thanks for finally clearing it all up Ivonov.

Please excuse me for thinking F**** You could mean anything else.

I feel so shamed for thinking it may have meant something else.

Now I must apologize for my own wicked mind in thinking it was something else.

Seriously, I will accept this and forget it so this can move on to the subject and honest disagreements.


To Ryon01
Why are you so concerned:
"Your inability to refute what I have written"

I even did not try and did not want and did not have any intention to refute anything what you wrote...
I just expresssed my own opinion, that's it.

But your reaction shows that too many Americans are crazy about making what Russians call "a storm in a glass of water."

And one thing more:
many love insulting people first and then immediately whine why they get a punch back...
So girlish...
No men anymore?
Instead of men talking - a court summon? Quarrelers by nature?
Maybe then would be better not to insult in the first place?
Don't start boxing then, right?
I am asking in general, not you personally...
But forums like this one opened my eyes surprisingly...

Good night!
Ryan01 at #130:
- "Funny, this thread was supposed to be about Georgia!"

Perhaps it'll be, if the column will be written by someone else other then Pat :)

Both of us do know what is the main topic of all Pat's writings :))

- "Have a good night, ..."
You too, Ryan01.

Thanks Ryan
Now we will watch the Russian Immigrant coward begin his internet punk act.
A real keyboard tough guy who is so brave to use his keyboard to fight all of Russia and shows the courage of a snake who hides in hole from just the shadow of a man.


To Scout
Detailed explanation:

"Go f*** yourself" is a literate translation from a Russian saying that reads in English
"Go find yourself", which means "Do so that I have to look for you" or, in other words, "disappear!"

Is this what you want me to apologize for?
Stange...
OK. Don't disappear!
Is better now?

talent scout
We don't disagree. I split the post between you and Ivanov, hence the dashed line. The link was meant for you, the negative comment for our friend Ivanov. My apologies for not making myself clearer.

TH software is so crude that the more posts, the harder it is to bring up the thread. This crap dates back to DARPA.

WarNewsUpdates.blogspot.com
brings this:

"Virtually everyone believes Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili foolishly provoked a Russian invasion on August 7, 2008, when he sent troops into the breakaway district of South Ossetia. “The warfare began Aug. 7 when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia,” the Associated Press reported over the weekend in typical fashion.

Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn't start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened before Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war."

I am happy to find at least this one site.
Thank you to those who brought it here...
Even if it was Scout

Pat is always at the Islamists side ...
of the ME conflict.

Ric: "The "truth" that Pat and his fans only got (as a God given gift) is that America should be at the Islamists side of the ME conflict."

Ryan01: "Could you provide an example, please?"
_________

I provided them to you at my #20. As you remember, Pat wrote above:

- Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.

- But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years,...

This is Pat's very strong and stable position.


Apologize now immigrant ivansein
Constantine Ivanov writes: - 4:55 PM EST
Subject: To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?
===

I am a patient man ivanstein and very long suffering, but I want an apology from you if it goes unfilled from here to eternity.


Ric
No apologizes are necessary. Work is a court summons that no man can afford to ignore.

What you have written is true. It is evangelical churches, particularly those of a dispensational bent that provide the muscle to AIPAC. AIPAC, nonetheless, is the brains that controls all of this misguided power. It is through its ability to influence people like these via their pastor like Hagee and Robertson that AIPAC holds such sway over Capitol Hill. I once again will refer you to those links that go to AIPAC as evidence that they, themselves, brag about their power over Congress and I can find more.

In any case, and this is my point. I couldn't care less about the problems that Israel has with the Palestinians. If Israel wishes to steal land they can do it on their own dime, not mine. People that wish to donate their own money to Israel can do so as far as I'm concern and ditto that for the Palestinians. I don't want the US govt. involved in this mess and even more important, the US Armed Forces.

Funny, this thread was supposed to be about Georgia! Have a good night, I'll check in tomorrow.

To Scout
you wrote:
"I am still waiting for your apology for being such a nasty minded little immigrant.."

Wait.
How old are you?
Do you think, you still have a chance to wait till I respond to your not-idiotic not-racist pro-immigration insults?

mike #108: writes: "Pat Buchanan...

The 21st Century 'Neville' Chamberline."

SPOT ON! Couldn't have said it better myself!


Constantine: ts is waiting for an

apology from YOU??? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...

No way!!! That is almost as funny as him getting his news sources from Russia! :-)


To Sir Aslan

I've read twice your answer and made a conclusion:

1. either you misinterpreted my gloomy satiric post you are responding to, OR

2. I misinterpreted your answer since in your description of "neocons" I found amazing similarity with Mr. Sex-o-Clinton. Is that the same? Ha-ha-ha...

Seriously, even you said WHAT you think "neocons" did, but didn't give the description of the notion of "neocon" I asked for.

I think people are in love manipulating with terms the meaning of which is not clear - sounds "scientifically", imparts weight of the said...


Thanks for the link
Ryan01 writes:- 10:36 PM EST
Subject: ivanstein/ TS
Your inability to refute what I have written on this thead is not my problem, but your's.
=====
TS,

Here's an excellent one for you.

http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/

Lots of links.
===
ts:
But I am unaware of what or when I have disagreed with you?

Avoid Mirrors Ivanstien
Constantine Ivanov writes - 10:42 PM EST
To Scout

Just to let you know for general education(nothing personal):
I dislike ugly faces...
===
ts:
Nothing personal, just friendly advice

Constantine Ivanov writes: - 4:55 PM EST
Subject: To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?
===
ts:
I am still waiting for your apology for being such a nasty minded little immigrant ivanstien

Sympathies with Israelis or Arabs ...
what religion, ideology or race factors determined them.

--------
Ryan01, sorry for delay with respond, back to our discussion. Are you really suppose that a great part of American people can be more influenced by some organization like AIPAC than by their Church or their conservative / liberal ideologies ?

I still think that the Church influence (or by using your terminology, a "powerful propaganda machine") the strongest one.

Please take a look for instance to the results of following Gallup polls:
--------
"Sympathies with Israelis or Arabs Results by the Church Attendance":

Once a week:
Sympathies with Israelis - 63%, with Arabs -12%

Once a month:
Israel - 59%, Arabs -14%

Seldom:
Israel - 52%, Arabs -16%

Never:
Israel - 45%, Arabs -21%


Sympathies with Israelis or Arabs Results by Party Affiliation and Ideology

Conservative Republicans:
Israel - 78%, Arabs -7%

Liberal Democrats:
Israel - 43%, Arabs -23%:

Sympathies with Israelis or Arabs Results by Race

Whites
Israel - 58%, Arabs -14%:

Blacks
Israel - 49%, Arabs -24%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/22063/Republicans-Religious-Amer icans-Most-Sympathetic-Israel.aspx

"Republicans and Religious Americans Most Sympathetic to Israel" March 27, 2006.
Copyright © 2008 Gallup, Inc

This overlooks
ApolloSpeaks

What were these so called Russian peacekeepers doing when South Ossetian separatists were killing and shelling innocent Georgians since late April? What were they doing to keep the peace in South Ossetia? Absolutely nothing! But when Georgian troops went in to protect Georgian citizens and quell the rebellion what did the Russian "peacekeepers" do? They fought the Georgian army to protect the criminal rebels and some were justifiably killed.

=====
ts:
The South Ossetion "rebels" and the Russian "peacekeepers" were not in Georgia doing any fighting.

No, the Georgian Military was IN South Ossetia fighting the "rebels and peacekeepers".

To Scout

Just to let you know for general education(nothing personal):
I dislike ugly faces...

Appolo Spews
Do you also applaud Turkey and Iran shelling an autonomous Kurdistan?

Constantine Ivanov and the Neocons

Constantine Ivanov writes:


"Only one thing left to accomplish to fulfil that task: to annihilate all "neocons"...

I am ready to start exterminating...
Just explain to me please, what that mysterious "NEOCON" means..."

Aslan writes:

Neocons have highjacked American Foreign Policy
and have gotten our country in numerous blunders including their support for the Clinton administrations "ethnic cleansing" of Serbian Christians and Jews in favor of supporting and aiding the Albanian Islamo-Molems with the overthrow of Bosnia and Kosovo and quite possibly a greater threat of a Islamo Caliphate extending into Macedonia and even
Greece and Turkey which could threaten Eastern Europe.







"It's strange as well that President Clinton complained to Mike Wallace about the "neocons" attacking him when many of the same neocons in 1999 supported Clinton's war on Yugoslavia. The war was never approved by the U.N. or the U.S. Congress, and in fact violated the War Powers Act. The main beneficiary of the intervention was a Muslim terrorist group, the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), with links to bin Laden, who had declared war on America in 1996, bombed our embassies in Africa in 1998, and would later, of course, orchestrate 9/11.

When former CIA official Michael Scheuer says that the Clinton Administration "had eight to ten chances" to kill bin Laden and "they refused to try," he is making a statement that goes far beyond acknowledging Clinton Administration incompetence or a lack of will. The fact is that Clinton had a pro-Muslim foreign policy that actually benefited bin Laden and facilitated 9/11. Most Republicans don't mention this because too many of them were duped into backing Clinton's misguided policy in Kosovo. President Bush, then a candidate, even backed U.S. military intervention there through NATO."


To Puncho
Huh?
Did you read what you wrote?
Stalin said?
You mean Stalin is still alive and conducts all affairs? No 65 years passed yet from his death? Nothing changed since?

Or you mean that you spit on both Georgia and the International recognition of Abkhazia and Ossetia as PART OF sovereign state of Georgia?

Or you want to disgrace your ancestors who - as you said - fought against those Caucasian Muslim separatists 150 years ago?

Constantine Ivanov/ TS
Your inability to refute what I have written on this thead is not my problem, but your's.
=====
TS,

Here's an excellent one for you.

http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/

Lots of links.

How many people trust the NY Times?
Many do
Yet I have seen most republicans/conservatives despise it, like Anne Coulter and a host of others.
Rush calls it what it is for me, "drive by media".
Yet how many watch ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN anyway?


We have republicans listening to what the democrats are saying at their convention.
Does this make them democrats?
Listen to people like this Russian Immigrant and he would have you believe all who listen in are democrats.

I doubt it, I think they listen to see what they are saying.

I would say thats just smart politics, if you can handle listening to them, which I cannot, but know others are listening but who will not vote democrat.

This is the same reason I want to know what is being said in Russia and what Russians are talking about.

The traitor to America is this imported Russian .
He is not a real American at all.

I read what the Russian news is for the same reason Anne Coulter reads the New York Times.
Not cause I think they tell the truth for me or America, but they do tell us what they think.

Only a cheap little internet punk would call a man a "traitor" for that.
Wish he would try it to my face






Interestingly, even the Open Society
Institute created by shameless George Soros (also the feeder of the infamous MoveOn.org) brought - through its EurasiaNet.org - some info that shows the situation differently than Russia's lovers tried to spread:

"Human Rights Watch is also raising an alarm about conditions in the conflict zone, asserting that Russia’s use of cluster bombs has created an ongoing hazard to the civilian population."

Who then uses cluster bombs against civilians?

Whose territory?
>Anyway, what makes you so fervent defender of Muslim separatists and Russian 5th Columns rather than to support Christian Georgians fighting for their territory's integrity?<

What territorial integrity? Because Stalin said so? What other Stalinist policies do you hold dear?

good points???
Maybe!? But the jury is still out concerning
Russia and it's over all intent!
Maybe georgia prez was just plain stupid and started somthing he should not have....?
Putin of course is the prince of peace......
because bush looked into his eyes..awwwwwwwwww
how nice.
Russia...has been doing things contrary to our interests, after all,why not, when Cupid W.
proclaimed Putin former kbg head..a real darling of a guy!
But georgia..we have got to draw the line somewhere on these overseas ventures!
elvis

I forgot to add my favorite things to my
list...

I go crazy with "Novosti", "Pravda",
"Komsomolskaya Pravda", "Moskovskiy Komsomolets", "Pravda.ru", and the whole bunch of other information sources somebody here lovingly and persistently supplies us with:
all those names drag me back into my former country, the former USSR with all that KGB-CPSU propaganda artillery.

The most amazing thing, though, is that that person (who, btw., is self-proclaimed 'American Patriot') doesn't hesitate to publicly announce that he doesn't trust our information sources but DOES TRUST Russian sources...aka Stalin/Goebbels propaganda.

No wonder, though!
We are living now in the country where a traitor can be called "a hero" and allowed to work in the Senate and Hollywood...

Ryan01
http://www.eurasianet.org/

So far I have found a preference for the news from this site

"Flat" Pat Buchanan
The 21st Century Nevil Chamberline. Where WOULD he have drawn the line? He's already given up Poland. Now he's handing North Africa to the Ities. How much of China would he have given the Japs? Flat(ulent)Earth Pat never met a Dictator or Agressor he didn't like.
What a piece of sheite ruin for a man who had a few good ideas.
A threat to Liberty anywhere is a threat to it everywhere is a threat to mine. Kill them all, kill them now.

Just shut the phook up, Pat.

the big mick

What I like at most on this blog

I love expressions like "Sage advice":
they show an absolute conviction of the writer's superiority.

"a bitter laugh" just imparts lustre to that pride.

To me, an indescribable charm is being emanated from phrases like "Most of the of the folks on this blog...get their comic book history from tv or neocon talk radio."

I want to immediately crouch my head to the earth and freeze paying obeisance...

...out of which I am being driven out by a reproachful and merciless judgement: "the appalling ignorance shown by most of these posters..."

Shame on us illiterate...Why did we shirk school!

Therefore I completely agree that the entire responsibility lies on the "CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN": "is all the more reason to get rid of the govt. schools."

Only one thing left to accomplish to fulfil that task: to annihilate all "neocons"...

I am ready to start exterminating...
Just explain to me please, what that mysterious "NEOCON" means...

talent scout
Agreed. I've been viewing not only the "American" media, but also the foreign one on this war. The foreign press has a better accuracy rating than the corporate media here and that includes the Russian press as well. There are lies across the board to varying degrees, but the worst ones in my opinion are on the "liberal" CNN. Even Fox looked good in comparison. At least they did run that story about the girl who thanked the Russians troops for getting her out of that town.

This is a sad commentary.

FeargalX
Sage advice

I had to give a bitter laugh at your post. Some of the folks on this thread fail to realize the Cold War is over. It is only the neocons who want to resume it. You know, that ice ax that cleaved Trotsky's head really did a number to the neocon opinion makers. They are still mad. :D

Most of the of the folks on this blog, if you haven't already realized, get their comic book history from tv or neocon talk radio. For me, the appalling ignorance shown by most of these posters is all the more reason to get rid of the govt. schools.

Information is good to have
Everyone in American knows we can no longer trust our own press to report the news.
We are spoon fed and it can be seen of anyone will take the time to visit news sources around the world.

I believe it is stupid to ignore what is being reported in Russia.
Propaganda or not.
I am willing to bet anyone this is not propaganda:

"SOCHI, August 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will defend Abkhazia and South Ossetia with all necessary support if they come under attack, President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday.

"Under the decree recognizing independence of both republics, which I have signed, our country will help Abkhazia and South Ossetia to ensure their security and if they are attacked we will certainly offer them appropriate support," Medvedev told CNN.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080826/116296248.html

Actual history
Necons who have fantasies about Russia being like Nazi Germany are completely historically ignorant. Here is an actual timeline:

1980 USSR probably the strongest country in the world -- especially combining it with the leftist countries all over the world which totally follow many of their edicts.

1991 No more USSR -- the USA is much more powerful -- Eastern Europe is no longer Communistic.

1999 Russia is in total chaos. Its military is antiquated compared to the USA.

2008 Russia has some stability. It has very little influence. It cannot have influence -- its population is falling, life expectency is falling, it has no huge military complex.

(of course Germany was a threat because they GAINED power between 1933 and 1939 -- not because they lost power)

Now idiot neocons would like us to make Russia completely unstable. Yes -- lets threaten them with making any reasonable policy move they make (why didn't we invade Russia in the early 90s when they first put peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia).

Oh yeah, Kosovo needs to be recognized -- not South Ossetia though (why not? Why Kosovo? Does any of this stuff make sense? South Ossetians voted 2 years for independence -- oh -but that shouldn't count.)

It might be a good idea for some of the people on this board to (1) study history, (2) study the last 30 years of history in the USSR/Russia, (3) study the history of the region called Georgia, (4) study Kosovo and Serbia.

Yeah -- celebrate the independence of Kosovo! Go burn down a church!

Right, eternal conflict is policy
Ryan01 writes: 8:42 PM EST
Subject: talent scout
We could simply invite Russia to be a part of NATO as they requested one time, but were refused. But then again, that would wreck a perfectly good new cold war that could be used not only for partisan political purposes, but also for a few to make a lot of money.
===
Of the Trotskyites, which are called neocons today.

Here have Rice in Jerusalem to create another Arab State, and recognize a new nation which had never been a nation yet deny
Abkhazia and South Ossetia their right to independence.

Stinks

To Pancho
You recommend ME to learn Georgian history?
What about yourself?

I am afraid that keeping personal knowledge of Georgia's history from your 19th Century ancestors (when your ancestors were fighting against Imam Shamil in Dagestan and Chechnya, which were and are not Georgia, btw.) in your memory is a task slightly more difficult than keeping my personal knowledge of Georgia where I was many times personally and studied about only some 55 years ago.) -:) -:) -:)

Anyway, what makes you so fervent defender of Muslim separatists and Russian 5th Columns rather than to support Christian Georgians fighting for their territory's integrity?

Sorry if I am wrong...

Constantie: Thank you for that insight

about Angela Merkel.

As far as akagi... Pay him no mind. He's just an arrogant, angry, ILL-manner poster who is far more impressed with himself than anyone else is.

And with regard to ts... seems he's still in love with information directly from RUSSIA. Hmmm.... I think you were right several days ago. No "news" or "information" from Russia should NOT be trusted.

And as long as those grandchild is distracting you.... :-) life is good.


talent scout
We could simply invite Russia to be a part of NATO as they requested one time, but were refused. But then again, that would wreck a perfectly good new cold war that could be used not only for partisan political purposes, but also for a few to make a lot of money.

Ric
I couldn't get to it at the time, but here you go, from the horse's mouth.
===
AIPAC's work to ensure that the U.S.-Israel relationship remains strong and vital.

As America's leading pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC works with both Democratic and Republican political leaders to enact public policy that strengthens the vital U.S.-Israel relationship. With the support of its members nationwide, AIPAC has worked with Congress and the Executive Branch on numerous critical initiatives -- from securing vital foreign aid for Israel to stopping Iran's illicit nuclear program. Some highlights include:

http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp

And more:

"AIPAC Event Highlights Bipartisan Support for U.S.-Israel Relationship

Half the Senate and half of the House were on hand for the AIPAC Policy Conference's Gala Banquet, a reflection of strong bipartisan American support for Israel. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) and Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) addressed the event, which was also attended by officials from the Executive Branch, the diplomatic corps and the Israeli government, as well as scores of other honored guests. The next morning, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and House Republican Leader John Boehner (R-OH) addressed thousands of conference delegates before they headed to Capitol Hill for more than 500 meetings with members of Congress."

http://www.aipac.org/2841.htm

Right, this a myth and all of this is from their own website. They brag about their power.

That's more BS
>In particular because the "ethnic cleansing" or rather a clash in those Georgian provinces is methodically and intentionally prepared and incited by Russian chauvinistic ambitions.<

Read some Georgian history. Just like Texas' heroes in the 19th century included Americans like Sam Houston, Steven Austin, Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie at the Alamo, plus my own great great grandfather Josiah Bell, the heroes of 19th century Georia are primarily Russians:

Yermalov, Prince Madatov, Paskevich, Count Vorontsov and Prince Baryatinski are a few of the famous Russians who defeated the Persians, Turks and Caucasus Muslim terrorists like Shamyl in defense of Georgia.

Looks like the Russians have made
Their decision what to do about Abkhazia, S.Ossetia.

I got an idea how to handle this.
Lets allow Saakashvilli to take it back and recruit all the arm chair generals and couch infantrymen on this thread to help him.
I am not a Georgian even if McCain and company are.
Go, take it back you heros




Russia to support Abkhazia, S.Ossetia if they are attacked
20:27 | 26/ 08/ 2008



SOCHI, August 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will defend Abkhazia and South Ossetia with all necessary support if they come under attack, President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday.

"Under the decree recognizing independence of both republics, which I have signed, our country will help Abkhazia and South Ossetia to ensure their security and if they are attacked we will certainly offer them appropriate support," Medvedev told CNN.

Russia's president signed decrees earlier on Tuesday recognizing Georgia's breakaway South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states and called on other countries to follow suit.

Direct to you from Russia
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080826/116296248.html

Anne, sorry for typos
my grandchild distracted me -:)
I prey so that he distracts me many more years...
-:) -:) -:) -:) -:)

Pat "Heil Hitler" Buchannan
Tiger never changes his stripes for this antisemite. He is comparing the Russia invasion of Georgia to the 6 Day War. LOL, does he not know, or probably doesn't care, that all of Israel's neighbors were planning a genocidial invasion of Israel? If Israel didn't act, the world would have see the 2nd Holocaust in less than 20 years.

Hezbollah had been committing terrorist attacks against Israel for years, the last one was the straw that broke the camel's back. In fact I thought Israel should have acted with less restraint. Imagine if Mexico came across the border and kidnapped US soldiers a militarist like Buchannan, who is know to hate the wet-backs, who been scream for war.

Buchannan you Nazi loving racist, who you crappin!

To Anne
Europe seems to enjoy the smell of turd they loaded in their own pants as Putin (aka Medvedev) spat in their face.
In particular, Merkel.
You know why Merkel particularly?
Because Merkel is German who has under her skin the remembrance of a crushing defeast from Russians, on the one hand, and who was grown in a family sympathizing with Communist Regime in DDR and was personally involved in Communist activities ("Agitprop") before she joined the new party "Democratic Awakening."

So, that weight makes her very much resistant to any decisive measures against Russia.

Since she is representing the most powerfull European country in the NATO, other countries are a very reluctant to such measures.

To Akagi

Firstly, you most likely know that my name is not IVAN. My full name is clearly indicated above any of my posts.
Therefore, if you will keep calling me IVAN, I have to treat it as an open door to call you whatever I want. It might be not of pleasure to you.
For this once, I treat it just as your honest mistake.

About Taiwan.
If I am not mistaken, Taiwanese speak Chinese.
Taiwan's history starts from Xinhai Revolution in October 1911 that led to establishment of the Republic if China in January 1912.
Under pressure of mao's Army, the Republic moved to Taiwan on December 7, 1949 (I do remember Moscow Radio talking about that event.)

The fact is that logically it was Communist China who, supported by the Communist USSR, performed a role of a rebellious separatist simply because the Republic of China (Taiwanese) already existed when Mao Ze Dong was still under 18 years old.

Thus, any comparison of Ossetia populated by Russians ("inserted" there intentionally by Lenin's decree of 1921) and Ossetians who ethnically are neither Russians nor Georgians and Abkhazia populated also by Russians and a NorthWest Caucasus ethnical group with Taiwan situation is fundamentally wrong.
In particular because the "ethnic cleansing" or rather a clash in those Georgian provinces is methodically and intentionally prepared and incited by Russian chauvinistic ambitions.


Chris:You're right! Let's appease Russia

while Putin invades one country after another...

"Putin deplores collapse of USSR"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4480745.stm

"President Putin: Russia will pursue its own model of democracy"

"Russia's President Vladimir Putin has described the collapse of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century."


Yup! That's the ticket. And how far will the world stand by and let Putin go???

What say, France? Or perhaps Spain?

Have any of you Buchanan followers

been paying attention to what's happened today???

Obviously, you have not! But I woud strongly suggest that you START PAYING ATTENTION!

And, start paying attention to what Constantine is telling us...

Putin is CLEARLY attempting to bring back the Russian empire...

As Ralph Peters said LAST WEEK.. S. Ossetia was simply an excuse for Putin to start his plan.

What country is next? Ukraine? Poland?

Yes Pat,
Let's appease Russia. (Roll my eyes here)

Ric
"It is one of the most popular myths. Not so popular like for instance the story concerning exciting details that clarifies how Bush's launched 911, but they are pretty comparable ones."

No, it is not and you know it. Trying to use the sandwich smear by equating those who are aware that AIPAC is the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill with 9/11 truthers is dishonest on your part.

"The only "powerful propaganda machine" that keep American people at the Israel side of the ME conflict is ... the Christian church."

Now this is an honest statement if I've ever read one here in the sense that outfits like CUFI serve as the brownshirts of AIPAC. If things go to hell, AIPAC can aways shift the blame to useful idiots like these.

Constantine Ivanov
Thank you for the clarification. I didn't see everything on that thread, so I missed your comments on Kosovo. Nonetheless, you are correct. We do disagree on this one.

To Ryan01
I am not sure what you are talking about when saying "you fail to understand."

How sure you are thinking that I don't understand something?

Having a different opinion (if you and I are in that situation) does not mean not to understand, though....

About Kosovo...
I already clearly expressed crtiticizm of our actions in Kosovo in my comments to Pat's "And None Dare Call It Treason."
I am sure that supporting rabid Albanian Muslim separatists in the Middle of Europe instead of helping Christian Serbs to preserve their territory's integrity was one of the worst political decisions in the USA history.
It completetly contradicts everything. Not to mention that by doibng that we converted Russia into our enemy exactly when we had an opportunity tyo make them our partners if not friends. We blew a great opportunity because Clinton wanted to distract the public attention from him being busy with sprinkling thirsty Monica.

But do I think that one mistake should necessarily be followed by another one only for the sake of "consistency"?
Of course, I don't.

Russia is clearly in attempts to re-vitalize her former Greatness as a Soviet Empire.

That's why any movement of former Soviet republics to free themselves from the Soviet slavery makes Russia twitch in convulsions.
Any mentioning about membership in the NATO causes their heavy allergy attacks. That's why Russia is going to attack all those who express their inclination to the West.

Ukraine already was threatened by the Russian oil valve.
Europe immediately loaded turd in their own pants.

But Putin and his puppet Medvedev are still stoppable.
Just like Hitler was in 1936.







Pat Buccanan
I sense that Pat is so bitter that the only thing he can do now is show contempt. Get over it Pat!

Who keeps US at the Israel side
of ME conflict:
=========
Ryan01 Reply # 69: " Israel does have a powerful propaganda machine in this country spearheaded by AIPAC."
=========

It is one of the most popular myths. Not so popular like for instance the story concerning exciting details that clarifies how Bush's launched 911, but they are pretty comparable ones.

The only "powerful propaganda machine" that keep American people at the Israel side of the ME conflict is ... the Christian church.

Left wing and liberal media are at the Islamists side of ME conflict.

The FoxNews, Rush and a couple of other radio talk shows support Israel, but they would not be able to keep American people well informed concerning "who is who" at the ME without the powerful pro-Israel influence of Christian churches.

According to the polls, the probability that someone supports Israel directly depends from the one and one only factor - how close he / she is to his / her Church.

Another factor is an ideology. The conservative people who usually support GOP significantly more likely will support Israel, then their left-wing and liberal opponents who prefer to vote for dems.

Any way the most important factor is the Church. If for any reason the Church will decide to discontinue it's support to Israel almost all American people will forget about this ME country to the next day or ... perhaps during two weeks.

Then you will see what the AIPAC really can do alone :)


+++++++++++++++
Just for beginning of you own research see for instance: "Republicans, Conservatives Growing More Positive Toward Israel"

Typically, Republicans and conservatives have been much more positive in their evaluations of Israel than are Democrats and liberals, and that continues to be the case...


http://www.gallup.com/poll/7837/Americans-Views-Israel-More -Positive-Than-Last-Year.aspx






Pat are you on drugs ?
Pat , if far left Socialist anti American Vermont and New Hampshire Morons wants to Join Russia ........ Should America stand by and let Russia have their way them .
Georgia wants to be a Democracy Pat not onwed by the KBG ..THEY LIVED WITH IT FOR 60 YEARS ....... NO THANKS . Duh !

But
"at theexpense of its neighbors who do not wish to be part of a KGB run Russia."

The majority of the residents of those two provinces WANT to be part of Russia and OPPOSE being part of Georgia.

The US was leader of the free world after WWII, but it understood its limits. It didn't stop the Soviets from imposing their will on Eastern Europe or trying to--it didn't stop the Soviets in 1956 when it invaded Hungary or the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia. It didn't try to ruin the Polish government economically when it cracked down on Solidarity.

There is a difference between being a isolationist--which PB is and being a person who supports getting in fights that are none of your concern and Georgia is surely that.

Russia's BEAR by Design
Pat:
You write about History as no others dare - Usually you are right on! You always identify the problems, but never provide your possible solutions which are the hard part.

RUSSIA is going to retake everything and more of what she lost. She has already threatened Poland just for installing a defensive missile system.

I would like to see the United States let our NATO allies (NOT) take care of this themselves the SOCIALIST LIBERAL BAST _ _ _ S, I would really like to see them sweat. Then, I will visit the web sites of French, German, British, Swedish and other AMERICA hater’s

ErnieGs
Columbus, Ohio

To Pancho re 1:07 PM Post
It is not BS to recognize that the internationally recognized national boundary of Georgia includes the two breakaway provinces. It is not BS to recognize that Georgia as defined during the Soviet period and the post-Soviet period, a time of over 80 years, included the two breakaway provinces as within Georgia.

What is BS is being an apologist for Russia and deliberately ignoring Russian designs to recreate the Russian Empire at theexpense of its neighbors who do not wish to be part of a KGB run Russia.

To Egon re 8:18 AM Post
Oh yes, Buchanan is an isolationist. If your example is Brazil, then you are advocating keeping to yourself -- i.e., isolationist. Keeping to ourselves was not what America could do after World War II and not what America can do now. America was and still is the leader of the free world. Under American leadership, the cause of freedom, democracy and peace has advanced.

svpallava
I think he meant that dual nationals aren't allowed to be dual nationals and also work for the government, not that there are not dual nationals. This may or may not be true.

This debate is not confirmed to the US. Hsiao Bi-Khim (Xiao Meiqin) was born to a Taiwanese father and American mother. Born in Japan, she grew up in Tainan and later moved to the US. She returned to Taiwan became active in the DPP acting as an advisor to DPP presidential candidate Chen Shui-bian on international relations. After winning the presidency, she served as an interpeter for him (she is fluent in Chinese, Taiwanese and English) but members of the Li Fa Yuan (People First Party members--who else?) complained she violated law by being not just an interpeter but an advisor as well which being a dual national (Roc and US) was illegal.

I suppose she renounced her US citizenship. Became a DPP member of the Li Fa Yuan (Taiwan's Congress), but was not renominated for her seat in 2007. Was thought not to be sufficiently loyal to the DPP cause enough. Now is on the board of a non-profit in Taipei called the Taiwan Foundation for Democracy among others.




Russia has a great
deal of oil and gas wealth. It also has a lot of decaying military equipment and millions of troops sitting around eating up the profits and spending their down time planning ways to get in trouble. V. Putin is doing what most dictators have done when the troops he must have to stay in power are bored and looking for fun, (or a coup), he invades somebody. In Georgia's case, Russia's tank corps got shook out and debugged in actual combat,(why should the US have all the fun?) and his ground forces got their needed blooding. He also showed Europe that he can play as rough as we (US) and without the guilt trip. His message to the Europeans is "expect more" and if they don't like it they can plan on stoking their here-to-fore gas furnaces with the chopped up desks and chairs from where they used to work.
All in all it was a win win for the New-Sov Czar. NATO collapsed like John Edward's face while the best we could do is send out MS Rice to yell, "Bad boy, bad boy!"
The US meanwhile will spend billions it doesn't have building and protecting a worthless anti-missile system in Poland that will do nothing to stop short range ballistic launches from false-flagged rust bucket freighters off European or American coasts.
So in the end the expensive and impolitic Poland adventure will work much as did France's 'impregnable' Maginot line of WW2 which the German war-machine just went around until they could punch through.

R.A.M @ 13:55 typoed
We don't allow anyone else from these countries, or any other country, to hold dual-citizenship and serve in our government".

Wrong--and shows that R.A.M. is ignorant of citizenship laws. Those who naturalise to US from another citizenship are subject to the other country's citizenship laws, especially if they choose to journey back there. Also, dual-nationals are not forbidden from working in government, or for government contractors--though it does cause difficulty if the dual-national applies for a high-level security clearance.

IMO, he's confused the fact that US doesn't allow a US citizen to (re)enter US on a non-US passport with disallowance of dual citizenship.

Georgia
"South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia... -
The entire world recognizes those two self-proclaimed "independent republics" as part of the sovereign state of Georgia and DOES NOT recognize their independence."

Ivan:

All but a few countries (mostly poor, unimportant and useless countries in Africa, Central America and the Pacific)recognize Taiwan as the ROC and independent of China as the PRC. It will within a decade or so reach zero. In the early 1990s, it was in the 40s, now only 23 countries recognize Taiwan. So since most of the world claims Taiwan is part of China and China is the PRC, should China have a green light to invade?

Constantine Ivanov
Hey, I'm fair about this. Clinton does deserve condemnation for his assault upon Serbia (and at one time so-called "conservatives" did) just like Bush does over Iraq. What is it about not being threaten by either two of these nations you fail to understand? All the Russians did was apply the bad precedents with good reason set by both Clinton and Bush. At the time Bush decided it would be a good idea to recognize Kosovo. The Russians warned them against it and they arrogantly refused to listen. No surprise here. Neocons play Risk! (and not very well) while Russians play chess. One could argue that Bush was simply carrying on Clinton foreign policy.

While you are in sheer mirth, here's something else for you to laugh about. Russia just recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I suspect other nations will as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/26/russia.georgia1

Ir's over and while Bush, Cheney and Saakashvili can stamp their feet and hold their breaths until they turn blue in the faces; these provinces are gone for good and there is nothing they can do about it. Another triumph of neocon/neoliberal "foreign policy". You might as well get over it, they already have.

Ric that's slight of hand....
Most Americans support Israel because they are an ally. Nothing wrong with that. So is Britain, Australia, Japan etc.

However, NONE of these countries wield anywhere NEAR the influence over our foreign policy and domestic conversation that Israel does.

We don't allow anyone else from these countries, or any other country, to hold dual-citizenship and serve in our government. The obvious conflict of interest is clear. However, we have many Israelis serving in our government. The Bill Kristols of the world want to nominate Leibermann as McCain's VP only because of their little Israeli connection.

Leibermann is a pro-abortion, liberal Democrat. But, other things are far more important.

RESTING ON OUR FAT LAURELS
The Russkies are not being pushed into or kept out of anything, they are coupling their communist agressiveness and the new found use of capitalism to divide and conquer the Free World. Aligning themselves with our enemies and suppling them with arms and technology, running about the globe tying up energy sources and valuble minnerals, I would speculate they want a piece of us and we won't have to wait much longer to see them try...meanwhile we are blathering away the time and resting on our big fat laurels.

George Washington was clueless, I guess.
There is alot of confusion among faux conservatives in believing the interests of Israel and those of the United States are the same.

Persons on this site have quoted George Washington's "Farewell Address to the American People", specifically that part of his warning not to allow passions for another people to unduly influence or affect our national interest, yet not even the wisdom of our Greatest American can penetrate the dense fog that has so enveloped the feeble minds of some neocons and evangelical Christians...rendering them incapable of perceiving reality, or recognizing that the interests of Israel(or any other nation..including Georgia)are not the same as ours.

No, John McCain, "we are not all Georgians now".

With such people voting, and politicians pandering to them, I do worry about the future of our Beloved Republic.

Not that Barack Obama is any better.

He is not..in fact on energy policy, he is far worse than McCain.

I just love it, Pat, ha-ha-ha-ha...#2
Ending...

4. "when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years, as he demands that Russia get out of the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, which Russia has occupied for two weeks?"
Oh wei! Why 41 years ago Bush didn't demand Israel to go out of its historical (Biblical) Motherland?!
Oh wei! Why Bush did not demand it TWO WEEKS after Israeli came to Golan Heights, just to keep equality between Russia and Israel?

Oh, I forgot: U.S. bombing of Serbia was done by sexually-erected Clinton.
Therefore, we MUST blame Bush, it's logically obvious.

Saddam also did not murdered 400,000 of own compatriots (Kurds); did not break 17 UN Resolutions.
How only dared we offend that nice Arab Socialist!

I just love it, Pat, ha-ha-ha-ha...
Pat managed to cook (I didn't say "concoct") a splendid paragraph:

"Mikheil Saakashvili started this war with his barrage attack and occupation of South Ossetia. Russia's war of retribution was far less violent or excessive than the U.S. bombing of Serbia for 78 days over Kosovo, or our unprovoked war on Saddam Hussein's Iraq, which has brought death to scores of thousands, or Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.
.....
Russia must get out now, adds Bush, for South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia. But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years, as he demands that Russia get out of the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, which Russia has occupied for two weeks?

As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked."

1. I spent days to find a photo of "murdered sleeping civilians" Saakashvili is being accused of (by Russia's lovers); instead, I found a lot of photos of damaged homes that now, after the window glasses are re-installed, look like before the war Russia unleashed against the sovereign state of Georgia.

2. Death toll brought by Russians in South Ossetia is still not known, but some say - thousands. The photos of dead Georgians are easy to find (unlike the opposite).

3. South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia... -
The entire world recognizes those two self-proclaimed "independent republics" as part of the sovereign state of Georgia and DOES NOT recognize their independence.
But Pat seems to object: he knows better...
Is Pat able to distinguish between a Georgian and an Ossetian or Abkhazian?
I Russian, who was there many times, doubt.

To be continued...

Ric
"You suppose that majority of American people "are misinformed in believing that Israel and the US have common interests in all things". Pat and his fans only are knowing the truth."

Yes--I agree with this totally. How many know China's military build-up has been heavily supported by Israel. How many know any of my last post detailing the assistance the Chinese have been given by Israel? Since few Americans even know what a J-8 or J-10 is, very few.

Of course, in some ways you are right, the Christian wackos who think Israel as the modern state is God's chosen nation could fire one of its nukes into NYC and those would claim it was God's will. So to them Israel can do no wrong--for the others they simply don't know any better.

Ric
"The "truth" that Pat and his fans only got (as a God given gift) is that America should be at the Islamists side of the ME conflict."

Could you provide an example, please? And I don't mean the business that Israel should get out of the occupied territories, but Islamists.

The other statements of mind I stand with. Israel does have a powerful propaganda machine in this country spearheaded by AIPAC.

Americans Consistently Side with Israel

Akagi Location Reply # 61: "I wonder... How many would support it [Israel]...? "

Akagi, you might want to take a look for instance to the Pew Research Center most recent study: The U.S. Public's Pro-Israel History.
In Mid-East Conflicts, Americans Consistently Side with Israel

by Jodie T. Allen and Alec Tyson
July 19, 2006

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/39/the-us-publics-pro-israel-hi story

++++++++++++++

Ryan01 Reply # 55: "I'd say most of them [who support Israel] are misinformed in believing that Israel and the US have common interests in all things".

Please, Ryan01, correct me. if I am wrong. You suppose that majority of American people "are misinformed in believing that Israel and the US have common interests in all things". Pat and his fans only are knowing the truth.

The "truth" that Pat and his fans only got (as a God given gift) is that America should be at the Islamists side of the ME conflict.

People who disagree with this Pat's point "are misinformed" or "Israel firsters".

I hope you understand what will happened in this country, if other people will begin to think by the same way as you proposed above.

They will suppose that anyone who they disagree with is "[...] firsters" or "misinformed".

Sorry, Ryan01, but I very doubt that you will be happy in this kind of country. Fortunately the dominant ideology base of our country still far from this someone horror dream.

Lucky
"WOW! Georgia acts in its own sovereign interests--violently or otherwise--and Russia responds not only in South Ossentia but with a bloody push deep into Georgian territory. Yes, I see how responding toughly is "pushing" Russia into the cold."

70% of those in South Ossentia don't want to be part of Georgia and have been independent--at least de facto--since 1991. Georgia invaded and Russia responded to the invasion--you might claim that Russia's punishment of Georgia was disproportionate, but was the US invasion of the DPRK (okay the UN if you want to be precise) on October 9, 1950 disproportionate as well? What level of punishment is suitable for an invading force? Should Russia let them escape back into Georgia with its military intact so it could invade again? Was the destruction of the Iraqi military in February 1991 out of bounds? Should China be given a green light on Taiwan to exercise its own sovereign interests?

The victims here are those in South Ossentia, not the Georgians.

Byler BS
>Georgia's President, who is committed to democracy for his small nation, wishes to reunite two provinces that hsitorically have been Georgian and in international law are Georgian.<

Historically since when? Since Stalin, a Georgian, placed them as autonomous oblasts in the Soviet Republic of Georgia. Prior to that, there was absolutely no historic connection to Georgia, other than being a part of the greater Caucasus region of the Russian Empire.

You have to to back all the way to 1800, when Georgia officially became part of the empire, at it's own request, to find a Georgia unattached to adminitration by Moscow. At that time, Georgia consisted of Tbilisi and the tiny area surrounding it.

Pat "Deep End" Buchanan
WOW! Georgia acts in its own sovereign interests--violently or otherwise--and Russia responds not only in South Ossentia but with a bloody push deep into Georgian territory. Yes, I see how responding toughly is "pushing" Russia into the cold.

Medvedev says he's not afraid of another Cold War and Condi Rice calls his comments "unfortunate." Yes, those neo-con Bushies are just itchin' for a fight.

If the League of Nations had passed meaningful sanctions on Italy, Abyssinia might have been spared. If we would have allowed the French to act, Hitler would've been stopped before he built his war machine. Hence, we must respond thoughtfully but firmly to Russian aggression.

Ryan01 Reply # 48
wrote: " Ric, You're right about the other two mentions of Israel. It still doesn't detract what I wrote about Buchanan approving Israel's actions in 1967..."
+++++

Ryan01, I fully agree with you that sometimes Pat writes the very good points in his columns. He is smart person and has deep knowledge of the last century's history.

His only problem is the Nazi-related ideology that constantly poisons almost all his writings...

I wonder
"Meanwhile the great part of American people strongly support Israel."

How many would support it if it knew it traded secrets given to it by Pollard to the Soviet Union, sold advanced air-to-air missles to China which the US helped it develop and they ended up on the wing-tips of the J-8, it aided China's development of its own cruise missiles, disclosed information on the US Patriot system to China and tried to sell China an advanced early warning radar system known as the PHALCON and Israel also helped China develop its new generation fighter to replace the J-8, the J-10 which is based on the Lavi design.

For all the hype about Clinton helping the Chinese military, the Israelis have done far far more damage in this arena than Clinton ever did.

Pat likes appealing to history?Me too #5
Ending…

1991-2008:
Russia is consistently building and injecting 5th Columns inside former USSR territories.
Implementation of long- nurtured plans to rebuild (aka re-conquer) the Greatness of the former USSR began:
1. Establishment of the SNG (the Union of the Independent States) (“independent” states are under constant strict control by Russia that regulates their behavior by the oil valve.)

2. Self-proclaimed independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (just like in Sudetenland)

3. Issuing and granting Russian passports to Crimea inhabitants (who are officially Ukraine citizens), Moldavians, and inhabitants of Baltic countries.

4. Having successfully prepared an “ethnical clash” in Caucasus, Russia got “outraged” by the Georgia’s attempt (maybe, not very well performed) to regain control over the breakaway provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and invaded the sovereign country with the connivance of the peace-loving West.

Nobody sees any similarity to 1939-1940?

What next?
Logically, full annexation of Ossetia, Abkhazia, Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Moldavia, Lithuania,…
Byelorussia with its Stalin-like President Lukashenko already joined Russia de-facto...

As of now, Russia, while being still rich of nuclear warheads, has very much outdated weaponry and military industry incomparably weaker that that of NATO or the USA.
Large in number military human resources fall short of modern requirements and their Western counterpart.
But Putin (and now his puppet Medvedev, too) is doing everything in his power to update Russia's military might.

And yet, he is still stoppable in his aggressions.
Just like Hitler was in 1936.

Pat likes appealing to history?Me too #4
Continuation…

The Soviet Union:
1. September 17, 1939: the Soviets, implementing their part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, invade and occupy the Eastern part of Poland.

2. November 30, 1939: the Soviet Union’s Red Army invades Finland, launching the Winter War.

3. June 15, 1940: the USSR invades and occupies Lithuania.

4. June 16, 1940: the USSR invades and occupies Estonia and Latvia, and the Soviet terror started: Order ?001223, "On the Procedure for carrying out the Deportation of Anti-Soviet Elements from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia", gave detailed instructions for procedures and protocols of the deportation of Baltic nationals.

(The three Baltic countries were occupied by Nazi Germany in 1941-1944 and re-occupied by the USSR in 1944-1991.)

5. June 26, 1940: the USSR issues an ultimatum to Romania, demanding the evacuation of the Romanian military and administration from Bessarabia and part of Bukovina. Being put in the corner, Romania agrees and the USSR occupies those regions and also with no explanation - part of Chernovitsi Oblast.

All of the above was part of a larger context of Nazi-Soviet build-up for the WWII with the connivance of the “peace-loving” West.

That “love of peace” led to over 72,000,000 of deaths:
Military toll – about 25,000,000; civilian toll – about 47,000,000; of the total, the Allies lost approx. 61 MLN; the Axis – 11 MLN.

In other words, peace-loving countries lost over 5.5 times more humans than aggressors!

Thank you much, Mrs. Love-of-Peace!

To be continued…

Pat likes appealing to history?Me too #3
Continuation…

4. September 29, 1938. Peace-makers Daladier and Chamberlain sign the Münich Agreement.
Chamberlain returns to England with the Agreement in his teeth: “I brought you Peace!”
At that very moment, Hitler occupies the Sudetenland.
5. March 14, 1939. Under heavy direct and personal pressure by Hitler, ex-prime Minister of Slovakia Jozef Tiso easily convinces the Parliament to proclaim Slovakia’s independence as an ally and client state of Nazi Germany.

6. March 15, 1939. The rest of Czechoslovakia became a protectorate to Germany.
Hitler gets the powerful heavy industry of both Czech and Slovakia at his disposal.

7. March 23, 1939. Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Lithuania Juozas Urbšys and that of Germany, Joachim von Ribbentrop, sign the Treaty of the Cession of the Memel Territory to Germany.

Thus, the final peaceful territorial aggrandizement before the start of World War II occurs before peace-loving silent Europe.

The next step of impudent Hitler was military – the attack on Poland on September 1, 1939, the start of the World War II.
That attack was committed on basis of the Molotov-Ribbentrop (read Stalin-Hitler) Pact.

European Peace-lovers started feeling the taste of their love for peace.

All this happened when militarily Germans were still very much stoppable: actual German military build-up started only AFTER Germans took over almost half of the peace-loving tacit Europe.
Impudence won!

To be continued…

Pat likes appealing to history?Me too #2
Thereby I offer a relatively short excursion into the historical domain (1935 - 2008)
Nazi Germany:
1. January, 1935. The League of Nations 15-year-term mandate of occupation of the Saargebiet (Saarland) by Britain and France under the Treaty of Versailles is over.
A plebiscite well prepared by Germany shows that 90.3% of voters support re-joining Germany.
March, 1935. Germany appoints a Reich's commissioner for re-integration of the Saarland (Reichskommissar für die Rückgliederung des Saarlandes), Josef Bürckel, member of the NSDAP (Nazi Party).

No one word of objection from the rest of the World.

2. January 1936. German forces reoccupy the territory of the western part of Rhineland.
11 years later, after the Second World War, Heinz Guderian, a German general interviewed by French officers, claimed:
"If you French had intervened in the Rhineland in 1936 we should have been sunk and Hitler would have fallen".

Hitler himself later said:
"The forty-eight hours after the march into the Rhineland were the most nerve-racking in my life. If the French had then marched into the Rhineland we would have had to withdraw with our tails between our legs, for the military resources at our disposal would have been wholly inadequate for even a moderate resistance."

Instead, “tails between our legs” became a decoration of the Western peace-lovers; Impudence won!

3. March 11, 1938. The Austrian Nazi Party overthrows Austria's state institutions in Vienna. German Wehrmacht troops enter Austria to enforce the Anschluss (Annexation).
No resistance, even the Allies (Poland, Great Britain with Northern Ireland, and France) were, on paper, committed to upholding the terms of the treaties of Versailles and St.Germain, which specifically prohibited the union of Austria and Germany. Austria had never been a part of Germany.

Peace-lovers keep silence.

To be continued…

Pat likes appealing to history?Me too #1
Heinz Guderian, a German general interviewed by French officers, claimed:
"If you French had intervened in the Rhineland in 1936, we should have been sunk and Hitler would have fallen".

Hitler himself said:
"The forty-eight hours after the march into the Rhineland were the most nerve-racking in my life. If the French had then marched into the Rhineland we would have had to withdraw with our tails between our legs, for the military resources at our disposal would have been wholly inadequate for even a moderate resistance."

A short historical excursion to follow...

Ric
"Meanwhile the great part of American people strongly support Israel so far. Should all of them be called the " neo-cons who have shown more allegiance to the state of Israel than our own Republic?"

Of course not. I'd say most of them are misinformed in believing that Israel and the US have common interests in all things. On the other hand I'll certainly say that people like Richard Perle, Chuck Krauthammer and Bill Kristol are Israel firsters who are only using this nation as a means to further Israel's political objectives at America's expense. If pointing out a truth makes one an "antisemite", then so be it, for the more rabid certainly will do that, as this thread has shown.

Go, Pat's fans, go ...
R.A.M. Reply # 44 "...I don't know why we... denouncing long-time conservatives like Buchanan who are only looking out for AMERICAN interests?"
++++++++++++

According to the Pat's definition of "AMERICAN interests" the only way to care about these interests is to be at the Islamists side of ME conflict.

Meanwhile the great part of American people strongly support Israel so far. Should all of them be called the " neo-cons who have shown more allegiance to the state of Israel than our own Republic?"

What is the name of the "Republic" where population prefer to be on the Islamists side of ME conflict? Most definitely it is not the United States ...

Perhaps it is a special kind of "Buchanan's Republic". The last time when Pat took part at the POTUS election he attracted less then 1% of voters. After all, it means that "Pat's Republic" is not the too large one.


Anne
Pat is not a RINO as he is not a Republican and he is not a conservative as it generally is defined.

He supports social conservative issues on drugs, abortion, homosexuals, etc, but supports typical liberal positions on trade--he is against it and supports tariffs (which is simply another word for a tax) on imported goods in the false belief it would help the US economy, supports pulling out of trade dispute organizations like the WTO and free trade agreements such as NAFTA. He takes liberal to libertarian views on foreign policy which is one of isolationism. In many ways, Pat is similar to the Republicans and the America First Committee (which was made up of many Republicans including future President Ford) of the 1930s. So an accurate term for Pat would be a Paleo-Republican--moral restrictionists, anti-trade, anti-immigration, isolationists. 12-7-1941 ended the Paleo-Republicans, seems Pat never got the memo about that.


Chris
What makes you think they want to recreate the old USSR? Russia was bled dry through having to subsidizes places like Georgia and the various 'stans. What the Russians want is simply this. They want the US to honor the agreement made between Bush senior and Gorbachev that in return for abolishing the USSR the US would allow for anymore NATO expansion. Another reason they broke up the USSR was that they didn't want a collection of unruly minorities to deal with that threaten their on demographics.

"So, I got a question for Pat. At what point does Russia asserting itself become our problem? When they are putting missiles in Cuba, readying them for fire?"

You mean like all these bases the Bush administration is trying to ring Russia with? This one of the reasons they are angry about those interceptors being placed in Poland.

Pat as president in 1941
If Pat had been president there probably wouldn't have been an attack. Japan attacked because the US enacted a total oil embargo on it for its invasion of Indochina. Pat would have said, why should the US engage in economic warfare over one colonial power invading the colony of another colonial power. As for China, well, that is between Japan and China.

No embargo, no attack.


Wood
"Do you realize how much wood that requires..."

I don't know David, I burn about 3 cords a year with my stove.

....
"Where does Bucchanan get the gall to compare Israel's preemptive war of survival against three hostile Arab states who were planning her destruction to Russia's unjustified and unprovoked invasion of Georgia?"

That's easy. The Russians are accused of using "disproportional force". Buchanan is putting it into context by pointing out the hypocrisy of the Bush administration. The Israelis have ignored something like 67 UN resolutions calling for them to leave the occupied territories and as far as Lebanon goes, there was no need for the US to shipped all those cluster bombs to Israel that they seeded southern Lebanon with three days prior to the cease fire. For that matter, there was no reason for Israel to bomb the hell out of the rest of Lebanon seeing how this involved Hizbollah in the southern part of the country. It's called "context" and I'll add hypocrisy for good measure.

Of course the Russians were prepared for this for they knew that Saakashvili was going to try this stupid stunt starting with his shelling of that town prior to his attack. I call that good planning. The Georgians started it, the Russians finished it.

This skirmishing in April you refer to, both sides have been guilty of that.
========
Ric,

You're right about the other two mentions of Israel. It still doesn't detract what I wrote about Buchanan approving Israel's actions in 1967 nor does it detract from my point that Eric was making a fool out of himself with that silly post.

It's Energy
We are learning how difficult it is to be all things to an entire world which is no longer playing by the rules that governed during the cold war.

We will not attack Russia, because she is a 1st rate nuclear power - that much is obvious. However, military weapons are no longer the only tools others have. Putin has put energy front and center. It is not enough to talk about a military response, nor a diplomatic response. We must also talk energy because it is energy which gives Russia disproportionate and direct power in both Eastern and Western Europe. Putin knows this. To deal with Putin and his ambitions, we must have a three pronged approach. Unfortunately, the US cannot even develop a rational energy policy to deal with its own needs, and Europe, having little or no oil or natural gas at all, is in an even worse situation - if that's possible.

This year, the world will pay $2.2 trillion to the countries which have energy. That money increasingly empowers them while weakening those that purchase this energy. And it does so on a massive scale. Chavez's foreign aide in South America exceeds the US's. Some middle eastern countries are systematically buying up Western Assets. They buy American debt and prop up the dollar. They increasingly make their influence felt through-out the world.

The threat of a winter without fuel is exceeded only by the "nuclear" winter. If Putin turns those spigots off, Europe will lack enough fuel to heat homes and operate vehicles, and prices will explode upward.

Putin is ruthless. And, his interactions with OPEC are increasingly creating the conditions of the use of energy as political power. We'd better wake up.

All this talk about "containing" Russia is so much talk if we don't first deal with energy.

So...
...according to Pat Buchanan we shouldn't do anything. We should allow Russia to keep doing what it is doing because if we do anything to confront them, whether through using hard power or soft power, we can only make them mad and make it bad for the US. So, as Russia goes back to reconstituting the Soviet Republic, we should just stand aside and let them do it because hey, its not our problem.

So, I got a question for Pat. At what point does Russia asserting itself become our problem? When they are putting missiles in Cuba, readying them for fire? When they start building bases in Venezuela so that they can have short jump to US? When they start making a play in the North Pole to mark what is or isn't Russian territory?

Putin is much smarter than you, Pat. He had you figured out way before you started figuring them out. But of course, let's go ahead and allow Russia to assert itself. After all, them destroying democracies and killing people that get in their way is not our problem. Until it gets to our shores and then we'll be too late to do anything about it.

Pushing Russia Into the Cold
Mr. Buchanan is, as usual, informative and makes compelling arguments. I also enjoy his style of pointing out the hypocrisy that permeates our foreign affairs. All the dyspeptics who have a problem with Mr. B’s alternative views supported by real substance are just reflecting their pre-conceived, shallow, hollow, and highly suspect views or lack thereof.

Pat should've known Better!!
ANY criticism of Israel or ANY of their policies will surely get you labeled as an anti-semite and your hands slapped by Krauthammer, Kristol and other "Israel-first" neo-cons who have shown more allegiance to the state of Israel than our own Republic.

I don't know why we listen to people with dual-citizenships and loyalties to countries outside of our own. Why do neo-cons promote flaming liberals like Leibermann (with clear conflicts of interest), while denouncing long-time conservatives like Buchanan who are only looking out for AMERICAN interests?

Carlos: Thanks. :-)
.

What junk
I don't know why Townhall wastes it's time with Buchanon. Typical tripe. He's developing a mantra that is as ahistorical as it is silly. Unprovoked war with Iraq. Unnecessary WWII. Could have contained Hitler. Bunk

Territorial integrity of Russia
A little of geography realities.

Are we going not to recognize territorial integrity of Russia ? Otherwise all the attempts to consider a nuclear power with ***the largest territory in the world******* as second rank country, be it evil or benevolent, are doomed to failure. (I actually think it is evil towards USA and Georgia, but that is not the point.)

Vice President Pat Buchanan
I'm dead serious. And that IS a comment on the gravity of the situation, the "what ifs" described by Pat.


Buchanan's fans at work
- business as usual - they carefully read the column and clarify to us what exactly Pat wrote about:

Shimon wrote at # 32: "...Israel played a role in nudging Georgia to invade S.Ossetia... Jewish Billionaires streaming out of their beloved old soviet empire."
+++++++++

It does not matter what Pat wrote in any of his columns. The subject of discussion of his fans will be always the same: "Blame Jews First!" Because they do know in advance what Pat is writing about ...

What we really need...
is an eye to eye screaming confrontation with a nuclear armed Russia over Georgia.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Putin is no saint but we should not push him into a confrontation either. I think the threat of mutually assured destruction is still understood by Russia but I am beginning to wonder if the USA has forgotten. We need to have honest and straight forward discussions with Russia and explain our interests and concerns to them. But we had better be very clear about what is really American interest and not just American desire. If they then choose to get froggy then we have a clear conflict of American interest.

I think the Russians respect the power we have in our nuclear arsenal. Neither Russians nor Americans want to sacrifice millions of lives as a part of a big game. Having said that I don’t think the Russians are troubled about throwing around their considerable conventional muscle. Our challenge is to figure out when we must stand firm and when we must respect Russia’s presence in their sphere of influence. The old saying of keep your friends close and your enemies closer is certainly apropos in this instance. Russia is still working its way out of poverty so the rush of acquiring and having money and power will cause them to act rashly. That is why we need to be close to them to moderate they new found enthusiasm.

ApolloSqueaks
Your point has been well refuted before -- Israel itself started the Six Day War in 1967, no matter how much we try to dress it up with victimology. That said, Buchanan's Hitler/Mussolini comment shows the uselessness of using historical analogies in describing current events -- you can twist anything into anything.

Buchanan isn't even a RINO...

Buchanan barely qualifies as a "used to be" Conservative.

In fact, Buchanan is a perfect example of what happens when someone hangs around half-wit liberals... you start buying into their lunacy, you start blaming America for every ill in the world, and you start writing columns like this and the last several columns he's written.

Kind of like an infectious disease!


If Buchanan had been President...
on December 7, 1941, he probably would have expressed moral outrage at whatever perceived slights the U.S. had visited upon Japan in the previous generation and left it at that.

Pat, I agree with you on many issues, but your constant advocacy of inaction in the face of evil is becoming downright embarassing.

Patrick the Forgiver?

Patrick can forgive (excuse) the Nazis, the Communists, the Imperial Japanese, and the Islamic terrorists.

But, should anyone dare lift a finger for the Jews, Patrick employs the word "Neocon".

To Buchanan, the word 'Neocon' is used as an underhanded slur against anyone who possesses support for Jews.

To Patrick, it seems all of America's problems rest with her support of Israel and the Jews. After all, he did refer to Hitler as "an individual of great courage".

Phil Byler
Buchanan is not an "Isolationist" as you speculate. Being an arrogant fool (as we, Americans are viewed by most of the world) shouldn't be descriptive of either liberal or conservative but simply stupid.
Brazil is the world's best example of a "live and let live" foreign policy, yet they are definitely not "isolationists". They just resent our meddlesome impositions with our Hare brained "Political Correctness" ideas on them.
Every people have the government they deserve, it's NOT our business to even judge them, much less try to impose our failed ideas on them.
California is a pretty good example of our failed left leaning administrations, it is bankrupt financially, economically, morally and spiritually, with a credit rating worse than that of Bolivia, while Brazil has a top rating.

Jerabaub FL
Very well put indeed!
Our progressively feminized culture of "busybodies" domestically is also evident in our arrogant "do it our way or else" posture in our foreign affairs. No wonder people hate our guts! We have been feverishly trying to impose our "Politically Correct" views on all of humanity in the guise of "freedom" or "Democracy". Freedom is relative. Perhaps we should compare our "Freedom" today with the freedoms we had, say only 50 years ago.
We are'nt much different from the former USSR as they were imposing their ideology on as many peoples they could while today we are arrogantly imposing ours without much success either. Brazil is on the right path, "live and let live", they have no enemies and are liked universally. The new world order is rapidly approaching together with growing prosperity in the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China)and our bullying efforts aren't going to be welcome by anybody.

Phil:
What makes you think Conservatives want to export democracy around the globe? Remember, the famous "pay any price, bear any burden..." quote was made by a Democratic president.
We have no dog in this fight in Georgia and should mind our own business.

More Incredible Nonsense from Buchanan
This is more incredible nonsense from Buchanan. Georgia's President, who is committed to democracy for his small nation, wishes to reunite two provinces that hsitorically have been Georgian and in international law are Georgian. That has nothing to do with Italian Fascist Mussolini's moves in 1934 as to German National Socialist Hitler when Hitler conducted a purge within the German National Socialist Party. Nor does it have anything to do with the 1967 Israel war with an overwhelming number of Arabs intent upon seeking again the destruction of the State of Israel.

Let's get real here. What Russia is doing reflects the designs of KGB Fascist Putin's effort to re-establish the Russian Empire. Russia moved a massive number of troops and armored vehicles into Georgian territory; that took months in the planning. Meanwhile, the Russian press is reverting to its ways under the Communists. No one is pushing Russia from the outside; it is KGB Putin's design.

I question Townhall.com continuing to run Buchanan's columns. He is not a conservative and not even paleocon. In forreign policy, he is an isolationist like most left wingers today and in accord with George McGovern's 1972 "Come Home America" speech to the Democrat National Convention. Buchanan goes so far here as to be an apologist for Russia. In domestic policy, when Buchanan last ran for public office, he did so as a populist. There is a reason he fits in at MSNBC: Buchanan should now be considered a left winger.

David
Not to worry.

Our new ally in Iraq will be too busy negotiating oil deals with China, and opening up relations with Iran, to be bothered by some Russian conspiracy in depriving oil to Europe.

Our Empire's Blessed Mission.
The same meddlesome interventionism so reviled by socalled conservatives on domestic issues(nanny state do-gooderism, banning of trans-fats, compulsory helmet and seatbelt use, etc.)is applauded by these same faux conservatives when applied to foreign policy.

The rank hypocrisy and lack of consistency boggles the mind.

A true conservative is as suspicious of our government when it meddles in the affairs of citizens here on domestic matters, as when it meddles in the affairs of other nations.

We have no messianic mission, nor were we commanded by God, to depose governments, invade states, to bring forth the "blessings of freedom".

And for those who think we do, should we invade the Sudan and free the oppressed in Darfur, or invade Rwanda to correct our negligence in not attending to that matter in the 1990s(for God has a long memory), or China, Egypt, Uganda?

There are so many nations deserving of these blessings.

The entire premise is stupendously arrogant, presumptuous, paternalistic, and likely will bring about our ruin.

Meddlesome Stupidity
Our culture has developed strong characteristics of meddling into everone else's affairs. We do this domestically with our legions of Political Correctness "Police", telling our neighbors what they can and can not eat, drink,smoke, say, write or do. This trait can also be plainly seen in our dealings with the rest of the world.
It's no wonder that most peoples in the world hate us or at the very least, are immensely annoyed by our arbitrary and uninformed impositions.
Perhaps we should have our politicians and State Department study Brazilian Philosophy regarding Foreign Relations, they don't have a single enemy in the world and are probably one of the universally most liked countries.
Buchanan is right. We are frivolously disrespecting a major power like Russia for almost no real reason whatsoever.
With our meddling with Georgia and setting up missiles in Poland we are only inviting a tit for tat by opening a real possibility for Hugo Chavez to invite Russia to set up "defensive" missiles in Venezuela to "protect them from American "beligerence"...are we ready for an all out war with Russia on account of Venezuela or Georgia? Poland? Ukraine?
Get real people!

The Bear Never Quits
Pat is living in an alternate universe. Our actions may have been mistaken in the Georgia incident but there is no question that Putin wants to return Russia to its former size and reclaim its "empire."

Pat's strategy is akin to that of a man sacrificing his dog to a grizzly bear and then his horse in hopes that the bear will be satisfied. Of course, the bear will eventually devour the human being.

Aggression must be challenged wherever it rears its ugly head. The U.N. obviously is impotent and NATO's European members reluctant to challenge the bear.

That leaves America alone to resist a possible combination of a resurgent Russia and Iranian- Syrian confederation.

History moves on. There is no universal peace in our lifetimes.

What is the Pat's columns
basic function at TH?

Eric wrote at # 7: "From what I gather, Patrick J. Buchanan hates the Israelites; only 41 years? "
++++++

Ryan01 replied to Eric: "Next time you might read the article before you make a fool out of yourself with the b.s. about the Israelis.

"As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked."

This is the only mention of Israel and it is supportive.
+++++++

It looks like Ryan01 missed a couple of the paragraphs at the Pat's column:

Meanwhile Pat wrote:

- Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.

- But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years,
++++++++++

Are these phrases can be considered as "supportive"?

Pat again clarifies the basic fact of his career - he does not know that "the birthplace of Jesus ... Israelis have occupied" a couple of thousands years.

Any Pat's column finally appeared to be just a next reason to his fans to attack Jews... Because the basic function of Pat's columns is to create a kind of "Neo-nazi Section" at TH.



Tragedy in the making.
Another good article by Buchanan.

I read this morning where non-U.S. NATO forces in Afghanistan depend heavily upon supplies delivered over Russian federated territories(and upon central Caucasus territories over which Russia wields influence).

Russia allows supplies for now, but she can always change her mind and refuse to allow her territory to be used to restock NATO's Afghanistan campaign.

(U.S. forces in Afghanistan get supplied mostly thru Pakistan).

So Bush(or McCain if president)can pitch hissy fits, get their panties all in a knot, and kick Russia out of G-8(extension of G-7) or otherwise marginalize her, but NATO needs Russia far more than Russia needs NATO.

The neocons and the perpetual-war crowd have destroyed the Reagan legacy which, with the dissolution of the USSR, changed Russia from being an enemy of the United States to being a potential friend.

"Mission Accomplished".

Cough.

Here we have Bush encircling Russia with NATO bases, making empty and grossly irresponsible promises to Saakhashvila(prompting him to attack Russian peacekeeper forces in South Ossetia whose presence there was agreed to by both the Georgian and Russian governments(under a U.N. mandate).

With any luck, Bush, McCain, and the neocons will make new enemies...as if we don't have enough on our plate now with Islam extremists.

Russia too can be our enemy.

After all, what is the worst that can happen?

Drive Russia into the arms of a resurgent China.

Islamists, Russo-China coalition, hey, what the hell, we can kick everyone's butt.

Like I said: "Mission Accomplished".

Incredible.

No need for explaining
Where is General Patton when one needs some advice. Diplomacy first?

Somebody please explain to me
Let me for the sake of arguement concede that Georgia is at fault and Russian was just looking out for South Ossetia. Okay.

To except this premise causes us then to suppose that the ordeal between Russia and Georgia is one isolated event.

Somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe te motives of Russia?
Can somebody explain to me a scenario where these things are taking place and yet how Russia is not really interested in playing the aggressor with former Soviet satellit countries as well?
Does Russia not push these countries out in the cold every winter when they withhold gas required for heating... threfore allowing Russia to manipulate the politics of these 'sovreign' states?
And after this how America is at fault?

Adviser of Presidents
I plead ignorance; Yep...didn't quite make it to the end...Thank G-d!!

Please realize I tend to completely agree with Anne from PA, and David from FL. Thank you for your insight David and Anne!

If you didn't understand what I wrote, then you didn't read it correctly...or through my globular eyes.

Amazing, an adviser of Presidents?

As previously stated; I am available for hire.


"What a clown this Hitler is!"
So are they all.

Emerson had it right: "There is properly no history; only biography." Putin & Saakashvili are both bullies. In which case, you put your money on the smartest one with the biggest guns -- even if the other does go around claiming to be a democrat.
(Also, don't spit in the wind & don't draw on the Lone Ranger!)
What next? First, some acknowledgement that we had no business using NATO to destroy Serbia. Maybe this is pay-back.
Second, a re-consideration of the horse we backed. It's just possible that Putin has a better take on the character of Saakashvili than we have. What he did to South Ossetians was ugly. Whether called-for remains unclear.
Third, Iraq has no place in the conversation. Apples & oranges.

Chechen Mercenaries in Ossetia, Georgia
“The result?

“Contrary to Russian claims that “volunteers” from the North Caucasus rushed in to aid their South Ossetian brethren, we now have proof that the Kremlin sent in hired guns. It’s no accident that Putin’s code-name for this operation is “Scorched Earth.”

“And there’s plenty else to be outraged about - not all of it Russia’s fault. Images of dead and disfigured Georgian soldiers show them wearing US-surplus canteens, boots and helmets, or equipped with antique US anti-tank weapons. After the Georgians did all their tiny country could to support us in Iraq, all we gave them was cast-off junk - thanks to Congress and the State Department.

“Our military was only allowed to train the Georgians for peacekeeping, anti-terrorism and small-unit tactics. The Georgians gave us all they had, and we gave them crap. The Bush administration should hang its wobbly head in shame.

“Meanwhile, Chechen rapists and butchers are celebrating - and picking over the US gear the Russians captured and didn’t even want.”



Expect possibly the Ukraine to be next...



Chechen Mercenaries in Ossetia, Georgia

“The generals refused. At the time, their stubborn support for the outlaw Yamadaev Brothers seemed baffling - a quiet Chechnya was a longstanding Russian goal. But last week, it all made sense: Putin’s military, which had been planning the invasion of Georgia for many months, intended to unleash the worst criminals in uniform it had on the Georgian people.”

“Why?

“Two reasons: First, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin wants the Georgians to suffer - to really suffer. And Chechens are the world’s subject-matter experts in atrocities.

“Second, this gives the Russian army itself a veil of deniability: When Putin’s spokesmen insist that the Russian military isn’t involved in the worst savagery in Georgia, they’re technically telling the truth (if we don’t count air attacks and artillery bombardments), since the Chechen thugs on their payroll are on the job.

“But why would those Chechens paint up their armored vehicles to tell the world they’d arrived in Georgia? First, they’re proud of their fearsome reputation. Second, they didn’t want Russian regulars to mistake them for the enemy and pull the trigger.

Cont.


Buchanan; too much time at BSNBC!

Even so, I'm still amazed at how naive he is!

"Russia Used Chechen Mercenaries in Ossetia, Georgia"

http://johnibiii.wordpress.com/category/mercenaries/

By Ralph Peters
The New York Post
“OVER the weekend, photographic proof emerged that the Russians used mur derous Chechen mercenaries to do their dirtiest dirty work in Georgia: The ragtag unit in question is so vicious that, last April, Chechnya’s Russian-installed “president” demanded it be disbanded.

“THE DOGS OF WAR: A ragtag group of mercenaries from this Vostok Battalion has made its ominous presence known in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

“War snaps taken by Russian photojournalist Arkady Babchenko have been circulating among intelligence personnel. The shots reveal far more to the West than Babchenko realized.

“Amid photos of the horrors of war, grateful South Ossetians and triumphant Russian troops, one series leapt out at me as a former intel officer: Bearded irregulars riding atop Russian-built armored vehicles (old BMPs, for the military-hardware buffs). The vehicles had been splashed with white lettering.

“What did the scrawls announce to the world? These thugs proudly proclaimed that they’re Chechens serving in the Vostok (”East”) Battalion commanded by Badrudin Yamadaev - who shares a reputation for gangland violence with his brother, Ruslan.

“Last spring, mercenaries from the Vostok Battalion indulged in a bloody gangland shoot-’em-up in the city of Gudermes, near their home turf. The mafia-on-steroids brutality was too much even for the Chechens (which is quite a standard). The province’s puppet president publicly begged the Kremlin and its generals to disband the unit.
Cont.

Chess game
What if Iraq was not only a strategic front on the War on Terror, a stabilizing force in the Middle East, providing a hope of democracy and external pressure on state sponsors of terrorism. What if it was also a strategic move in keeping the Russians from having huge leverage over Europe?

This is my crazy theory but if Russia ends up taking control of the pipelines in Georgia and then used this to manipulate our allies in Europe in ways of their choosing... what if our new ally Iraq finds itself positioned to assist our friends in Europe during such a crisis? Providing them with oil, even at their own choice? Catapulting them into a position of high favor with Europe... this in turn gains them even more favor and stature in the Middle East? Do you think the U.S. (Stanford provost) could have thought that far? We have developed some form of bluff calling missile defense already for such a tie as this? What if our government actually doesn't let on to show our next move to our enemies? What if we are able to read the board and predict future moves?

Therefore, our so called 'war for oil' would counter act what the Russians have been doing for years... manipulating weaker countries through oil. What if some people with foresight knew that they would end up wanting total control over these natural resources in their region? And forcefully gain power in Europe?

My theory might be proven if and when our ally Iraq willingly makes their resources more available to the Europeans, after Russian gains control of Georgian pipelines and then again squeezes the surrounding satelite countries and then finally Europe. This in turn leads to Iraq to be a European ally and powerful pro-Western force in the Middle East? And America looks good at the end of the day? What if America was actually right?

Well, that will probably never happen and this was just theory and speculation much like what Pat usually writes.

Eric
What position do you hold in the Bush administration? From the last seven and a half years I can see your advise is in play judging by all the disasters the US has suffered.

Next time you might read the article before you make a fool out of yourself with the b.s. about the Israelis.

"As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked."

This is the only mention of Israel and it is supportive.

By the way, Putin is mad as hell at them.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2008/eu_russ ia0447_08_20.asp

Serbia didn't do a damn thing to the US and there was no US interest involved. The charges of genocide against them was a load of crap. The only thing Clinton accomplished was to create a "country" ruled by the Albanian mafia.

The seriousness
what is required is a forceful yet measured response that does not involve military action on our part... but tells the russians that what they are doing is not acceptable... to do otherwise would invite an abuse relationship where the one doing the abusing makes the abusee feel responsible. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR RUSSIAN AGGRESSION!

NATO gives the United States some political coverage on the world scene... and in this country which allows there to be some credible defense to these countries without having the appearance of USA being in the middle of it...

NATO is offering protection. Again from what?
Why should Russia feel threaten by defensive measures??? America obviously does not want to go to war... especially with Russia. Some imaginary group called 'neocons?' please. Do we really think that there are people in your neighborhood that want to go to war every opportunity we get? Do we think the curent administration wants to go to war with Russia? 'neocons' really?

Russia controls a good percentage of the natural gas supplied to Europe as well... which European country is going to have the capacity to do anything when Russia has leverage over them as well...

Diplomacy requires leverage... leverage is pressure... I know the president is lame duck as much as anybody... But are we going to assume the better nature of the Russians over those we chose and have sworn to protect us?

Didn't even finish the article
I am available for hire; an adviser of Presidents.

From what I gather, Patrick J. Buchanan hates the Israelites; only 41 years? Were they, as a tribe, placed into exile? Whom do you speak for?

Historical perspective?

And to compare the war on terror with Clinton's/Congress's bombing of Serbia, is an insult to, I hope, most people's intelligence.

An adviser of Presidents?

As stated; I am available for hire.


sorry for typos
'when next winter comes Russia is going to withhold natural gas'

Pat obviously brilliant, lacks solution
So what do we suggest we do? I lived in Ukraine... I have friends their and in Moldova as well... when next winter comes Russia is going to withhold natural that these poor countries use to heat their homes. These are people that live in apartments, punch holes in their walls, create their own make shift fireplaces and chimney stacks as their only heat for the winter? Do you realize how much wood that requires?

Russia sqeezes these countries and uses this tactic to manipulate the politics in the Satellite territories not letting them achieve too much autonomy within their own 'soveriegn' systems... they have been doing this for years.

in Ukraine for example, this allows pro Russian Yanakovich to have leverage over the democratically elected pro-western government.

Georgia has the last major pipelines that keep Russia from having total leverage over these countries. This war that Georgia started was all too convenient for the Russians...
If we respond to Russia by actively moving to protect our allies...

Why would Pat assume that Russia would 'dissolve the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe and move her tank armies into Belarus and up to the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?'

Is Russia not the aggressor?

Why in the hell would Russia do that? What is their motivation? If it is aggression are we supposed to just wait in see? What is the solution?

Is Russian manifest destiny really the equivalent to that American ideal? Then we would have to assume that Russian philosophy in general is the equivalent to American ideals in general...

Grape Guy
Even if the US wasn't tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan, the US still couldn't project the necessary power into that part of the world due to the logistics alone. Furthermore, we have no business doing so despite what the neocons think. That's their backyard.

On a side note, Town Hall's software stinks. There are two parallel threads on this same damn column.

http://townhall.com/columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/08/25/ pushing_russia_into_the_cold

This crap must date back to the original software developed by DARPA.

History lessons
I really appreciate the historical perspective that Pat brings to this discussion. It was particularly dissapointing to see the McCain camp jump on this event as a black and white situation that should be fodder for their campaign. In fact what was revealed was a combination of loyalty to a lobbying client and a candidate locked in "Cold War" thinking. The real situation is actually quite messy and though Russia is no saint in this process, we would do well to actually understand the history and complexities before we wade in.

As Russia well knows, we are currently over-taxed by the aftermath of wars we easily won but peace that we struggle greatly to establish. We don't need to be obligating our troops and treasure to the protection of states and people that we don't really understand.

Great column
"If we proceed on a course of isolating Russia from the West, keeping her out of the World Trade Organization, throwing her out of the G-8 and ending cooperation with NATO, where do we think Russia will go?"

Right into the arms of China.

The only thing McCain demonstrated by his bellowing is that his sort of "experience" isn't what this nation needs at this point. But then again, is that McCain speaking or his chief foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, the former (not so long ago) lobbyist for Saakashvili?

The Russians are right on this one.

Pushing Russia...
Pat,

The old saying is that “history teaches that history teaches nothing.” I’m not sure you can fight that truism single-handedly, but at least you try. I was disappointed that no candidate revealed any nuanced understanding of this “crisis”, but I was particularly disturbed by McCain’s reaction. He jumped on this as a great opportunity to showcase his “experience” and in the process simply demonstrated a “cold war” perspective and the tendency to quickly divide the world into “evil doers” and “good guys” like someone else we know.

Steve
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