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Monday, August 25, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Pushing Russia Into the Cold
by Pat Buchanan
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A year after taking power, in June 1934, Adolf Hitler made his first visit abroad -- to his idol Benito Mussolini in Venice.

Babbling on incessantly about "Mein Kampf "and the Negroid strain in Mediterranean peoples, the Fuhrer made a dismal impression.

"What a clown this Hitler is," Mussolini told an aide.

Two weeks later, Hitler executed the Roehm purge and murdered scores of old Stormtrooper comrades. In late July, Austrian Nazis, attempting a coup, assassinated Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss, a friend of Mussolini whose wife and child were then his guests.

Il Duce ordered four divisions to the Brenner Pass and flew to Vienna to vent his rage and disgust with Hitler. He called a summit at Stresa with Britain and France to agree on military action should Hitler make any new move in violation of Versailles.

At the time, however, Il Duce was also plotting revenge on Abyssinia for a bloody border clash with Italian Somaliland.

Mussolini thought his Allies would understand if he invaded the Ogaden to add an African colony to his new Roman Empire, just as the British and French had so often done in previous decades.

Mussolini miscalculated. Morally outraged, Britain and France went before the League of Nations and had sanctions imposed on Italy that were too weak to defeat her but punitive enough to insult her.

Friendless, isolated and condemned as an aggressor by Europe, Italy and Mussolini had nowhere to turn now but Hitler's Germany.

Thus, over the fate of an Abyssinian slave empire, Britain drove her faithful World War I ally into the arms of a Nazi dictator Mussolini loathed and had wished to confront beside Britain. And Abyssinia was overrun.

Are we making the same mistake in the Caucasus?

Mikheil Saakashvili started this war with his barrage attack and occupation of South Ossetia. Russia's war of retribution was far less violent or excessive than the U.S. bombing of Serbia for 78 days over Kosovo, or our unprovoked war on Saddam Hussein's Iraq, which has brought death to scores of thousands, or Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.

Yet, declared John McCain of Russia, "In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations." Even Dick Cheney must have guffawed.

Russia must get out now, adds Bush, for South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia. But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years, as he demands that Russia get out of the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, which Russia has occupied for two weeks?

As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked.

Russians died in Saakashvili's attack, as American died in Pancho Villa's raid on New Mexico in 1916. We sent "Black Jack" Pershing, future Gen. George Patton and a U.S. army 300 miles into Mexico to kill Villa. Was this proportionate?

If we proceed on a course of isolating Russia from the West, keeping her out of the World Trade Organization, throwing her out of the G-8 and ending cooperation with NATO, where do we think Russia will go? Where did Il Duce go, when he was excommunicated from the West?

Condi Rice compares Vladimir Putin's action in Georgia to Leonid Brezhnev's crushing of the Prague Spring in 1968. She raced to Warsaw to ink a deal to put 10 anti-missile missiles and U.S. Patriot missiles manned by Americans into Poland.

Does the Stanford provost have any idea where the end of this road lies, upon which she and Bush have started the United States?

What do we do if Russia responds to our Patriots in Poland with the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system in Iran and Syria?

If the United States intends to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and arm them to fight Russia, why should Russia not dissolve the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe and move her tank armies into Belarus and up to the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?

Would we send U.S. troops into the Baltic republics to signal that we will fight Russia to honor our NATO war guarantees? Which NATO allies would fight alongside us against a nuclear-armed Russia?

If we bring Ukraine into NATO, what do we do if Russified east Ukraine secedes and Russia sends troops to back the rebels? Do we send warships into Russia's bathtub, the Black Sea, and commit to fight as long as it takes to restore Ukraine's territorial integrity?

In March 1939, Britain pledged to declare war and fight Germany to the death to guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Poland. How did that one turn out for Britain and Poland?

Before we start down the road of isolating and encircling Russia with weak NATO allies, let us think through Gen. Petraeus' question in 2003 about Iraq, "Tell me, how does this thing end?"

But, then, these folks never seem to think anything through.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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And this started the War w/Russia
Mikheil Saakashvili started this war with his barrage attack and occupation of South Ossetia.
===
I have been reading up on Mikheil Saakashvili and this guy is a loose cannon.

I cannot imagine him being the decider if America goes to war with Russia or not.
But putting Georgiainto NATO, with this man in charge does exactly that.

I wish everyone on America would read what lal he done to peaceful Georgians in 2007.
He is the Stalin in my book, something in the water of Georgia that produces these guys maybe.

A Stalin and a Mikheil Saakashvili

Pat, you make sense.
They US seems to be bent on treating Russia as an enemy like is was still the Soviet Union.

What II?
"Friendless, isolated and condemned as an aggressor by Europe, Italy and Mussolini had nowhere to turn now but Hitler's Germany."
-----------------------
It's the Brit's fault!

Mussolini was on the path to becoming a choir boy, but them damn French and Brits said mean things to the little Psychopath.

I knew it all along Pat. Appeasement is the best solution when dealing with Psychopaths.

Great Insight Pat!

If Clinton would have never bombed that aspirin factory in Tunisia... 9/11 would not have happened.

Peace :)


The Axis Apologist - Pat Buchanan
In May, you blamed Britain for having incited the Japanese. You claimed that Britain had thrown “over a faithful Japanese ally of 20 years. Tokyo took its revenge,”

In May, you blamed Britain for having driven “Mussolini straight into the arms of a Nazi dictator.” You do so again with this column.

In May, you blamed the British Alliance with Poland for having caused the German attack on Poland. You wrote, “Result: a Hitler-Stalin Pact and a six-year war that left scores of millions dead.”

We get it. You hate Britain and blame it for having incited all three members of the Axis.

You are worse than reprehensible. You are even worse than an apologist for fascists.

You are a revisionist.


Talk about over the edge
Pat writes:

"In March 1939, Britain pledged to declare war and fight Germany to the death to guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Poland. How did that one turn out for Britain and Poland?"
-------------

Carlos writes:- 10:30 PM EST
Subject: What?
Finally the truth comes out.

It was Britain who killed the Jews!

I knew those Holocaust deniers were right. The Brits did it!

And I think Dick Cheney toddled up and lit the pilot light :)
====
ts:
I read Pats sentence three times.
I do not see anything it that says this Carlos:

"It was Britain who killed the Jews!"

Where did you come up with it?


Mikheil Saakashvili was not in Italy
After days of heavy skirmishing between Georgian troops and Russian-backed separatist militias in the breakaway republic of South Ossetia, Mikhail Saakashvili, the Georgian President, went on television on Thursday evening to announce that he had ordered an immediate unilateral ceasefire.

Just hours later his troops began an all-out offensive with tanks and rockets to “restore constitutional order” to a region that won de facto independence in a vicious civil war that subsided in 1992.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4 488803.ece

WAY Down South...

Pat's on it! Just wonder if 'it' is something he smokes or drinks :)

All the Nastiness those British and French stir up? Maybe we should "pull a Patrick" and help Russia kill-off them damn Georgians.

Heck, they could be a bunch of Jews for all we know... Trying to pull-off another phony Holocaust memory.


looks like Carlos is on drugs
I do not know what he is reading on this thread, it is nothing Patrick has said I know that

There was no Russian trap
In recent years Moscow has made it absolutely, publicly and repeatedly clear that if Georgia attacked South Ossetia, Russia would fight.



The obvious trap was set by President Saakashvili for the West, and was based on the belief that if he started a war to recover Georgia's lost territories, the West would come to his aid. This didn't work as well as Mr Saakashvili wished, because we have not gone to war for Georgia. On the other hand, every Western government statement offering future Nato membership is an implicit promise that we will do so in future if necessary. How can we make such a promise to a man who tried to involve us in a war without even asking us first?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_c ontributors/article4607471.ece


talent scout
Carlos knows that Pat is correct and that is why he is making an idiot out of himself. This is typical of a junior neocon.

Somebody please explain to me
Let me for the sake of arguement concede that Georgia is at fault and Russian was just looking out for South Ossetia. Okay.

Somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe te motives of Russia?
Can somebody explain to me a scenario where these things are taking place and yet how Russia is not really interested in playing the aggressor with former Soviet satellit countries as well?
Does Russia not push these countries out in the cold every winter when they withhold gas required for heating... threfore allowing Russia to manipulate the politics of these 'sovreign' states?
And after this how America is at fault?

"What a clown this Hitler is!"
So are they all.

Emerson had it right: "There is properly no history; only biography." Putin & Saakashvili are both bullies. In which case, you put your money on the smartest one with the biggest guns -- even if the other does go around claiming to be a democrat.
(Also, don't spit in the wind & don't draw on the Lone Ranger!)
What next? First, some acknowledgement that we had no business using NATO to destroy Serbia. Maybe this is pay-back.
Second, a re-consideration of the horse we backed. It's just possible that Putin has a better take on the character of Saakashvili than we have. What he did to South Ossetians was ugly. Whether called-for remains unclear.
Third, Iraq has no place in the conversation. Apples & oranges.

Georgia
The United Nations, European Union, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Council of the European Union, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and all other countries in the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia. However, the de facto republic governed by the secessionist government held a second independence referendum[2] on November 12, 2006, after its first referendum in 1992 was not recognized by the international community as valid.[3] According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%[4] and the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations.[5] However, it was not recognized internationally by the UN, European Union, OSCE, NATO and the Russian Federation, given the lack of ethnic Georgian participation and the legality of such referendum without recognition from the central government in Tbilisi.[6] The European Union, OSCE and NATO condemned the referendum.
These are the facts. Whose at fault?
Buchanan, as always, puts the blame on Bush and the USA ( But, as usual, us numbskulls have to have a Buchanan history lesson of US faults. He hasn't got as far back as Adam and Eve, but, give him time ).

Semper Fi


McAmnesty Will Draft Ya, Ya Little Jerk!
Big Talk McAmnesty threatens war with Russia over Georgia, yet facilitates the devastating unconstitutional invasion of our country by over 30 MILLION illegal aliens and terrorists, destroys our cities with "his friends" the MS-13 gangbangers, and approves of the Mexican Army and Mexican druglords coming across our border and making it into a war zone. We need Black Jack Pershing. We want Black Jack Pershing. This idiot is no Black Jack Pershing.

So we have the incredible possibility of Panama Canal Zone-born McBigTalk planning "more wars, many more wars" all over the globe, financed by "his friends" the Chinese Communists, bankrupting us, all the while his unconstitutional invasion leaves us wide open to devastation. The thought of this guy as President should cause you to feel warm liquid running down your leg.

Patrick the Forgiver?

Patrick can forgive (excuse) the Nazis, the Communists, the Imperial Japanese, and the Islamic terrorists.

But, should anyone dare lift a finger for the Jews, Patrick employs the word "Neocon".

To Buchanan, the word 'Neocon' is used as an underhanded slur against anyone who possesses support for Jews.

To Patrick, it seems all of America's problems rest with her support of Israel and the Jews. After all, he did refer to Hitler as "an individual of great courage".


The Bear and Its KGB Masters
Pat should read Bret Stephens's column in today's WSJ. He writes, "How does one deal with a neurotic? Not by coddling him. Russia is dangerous but it's also weak, and it would be good to find ways to remind it of that fact. Stinger missiles for Georgia would be a start."

The column points out that Russia's population is shrinking and its oil reserves are badly managed by greedy bureaucrats. The KGB nostalgics led by Putin stand in the way of Russia actually becoming a flourishing economy and affluent society.

Pat Buchanan
So let's trust Putin and let Putin do whatever Putin wants to do. Are you on Putin's payroll?
Isn't it better to stop things early before they get out of control then to sit and watch and wait until a time when millions of lives are at risk.
How dare you equate our freeing the Iraqi people and helping them to put their lives together with what Putin was up to. Putin is an evil man and has been conniving for years now.

Did you approve of the way Saddam was ruling over the Iraqi people?
Be Brave Mr Buchanan.
Stand up for what is right. Stop worrying over what could happen next.
If evil is not stopped early it is certainly almost impossible to stop.
If Mussilini (according to you knew Hitler was unsound and perhaps dangerous) would have put a bullet through Hitlers head when he had the chance the world would have been saved much evil and sorrow.
I say we drop a personal bomb on Putin's head. Or at least have him stand before a war tribunal with accusations brought before him.
What is his life compared to the many he plans to destroy.
The United States, Great Britain, Israel and friends are trying to stop evil before it controls the world. The world is not reacting to us, we are being proactive. Acting on what we know will happen.
For instance if I know a murder is going to take place, I call the police and let them know so they can stop it before it happens.

Pushing Russia into the Cold
First, we must all expect Russia to proceed on a path perceived to be for its best interest. Given Russian history, I would expect Putin to do what the other Great (Ivan, Peter, Catherine) Russian leaders have done and take what they can. Putin is not a terrorist, or a Hitler, but he will use military force when he can get away with it. To show weakness is to invite demonstrations of strength. Russia will join the fold when it is in her best interest. Both strength and concession must be used to create that environment. However, I also think that the Russian military response in Georgia brings into question whether the so called "right" of a peoples self determination takes precedence over a country's "right" of sovereignty. The West supported Kosovo's independence and "right" to self determination, and Russia has supported So. Ossetia’s "right"" of self determination. Is the will of the majority of one group of people different than that of another? Or, should we expect henceforth the international borders will forever remain the same?

Talentscout-
The fact that you use "timesonline" as a source isn't promising. Putin has been providing heavy weapons and mercernary cats-paws to the breakaway Georgian provinces for years. In violation of international law, Putin has had Russian passports issued to thousands of Georgian citizens. The breakaway provinces were and are internationally recognized as part of Georgia. For months Putin's "peacekeepers" were actively engaged in helping the "poor victims in the breakaway provinces" shell and rocket Georgian citizens outside Ossettia; when Georgia finally made a decisive move to stop the bleeding, Russia made Putins move. Who was to blame for the "very first" nose thumbing in the entire situation; years ago?? Who cares.
The U.S. needs to meet our obligations in as honorable manner as possible and then get the hell out of the "nation fixing" business. NATO is the force that has the responsibility to intervene/maintain peace in that part of the world.
Putin is a KGB predator, with visions of a re-vitalized Russian power base; with the oil money and military to make those visions stick. Putin is in truth, the new Stalin. Ruthless & effective, with an active cult of personality among the Russian people. Putin is at present the most effective national leader on the face of the earth; that's not such a good thing for most everyone else on the planet. Mikheil Saakashvili on the other hand is at best/worst incompetent to handle the position he holds. Regardless - the U.S. probably can't realistically save Saakashvili or Georgia, if Putin has decided to devour them. NATO could, but they won't. When Putin jumps Ukraine, as he most certainly will, NATO and the world will be forced to choose.
If Obama gets elected, we will have plenty to keep us busy at home. Hell - if McCain is elected we'll have plenty to keep us busy at home. At home is the operative word here, by the way.

Dwain Cleveland

Hydrogen Production Engineer
Dwain, sir.

Ok, its all fixed by The President anyway.
Him and Condi Rice has ordered the Russians to go home.

Nothing to worry about now

Go home and mind your own bus. Russia
Very good advice and I am all for it.
Hey Russia!
Keep your nose out of everyone else's business and clean up you own house.

Be like us, we never interfere with anyone else's affairs, so let us the USA be your example in how to conduct yourself Russia.

If only they would do as we do, but these do not seem to want to be as smart as we are.
We never get involved with any other nations internal affairs, and are the example for all nations to follow.
If all nations would just be like us, the United States of America and our Foreign Policy, there could be peace all over this globe.

Why the Russians will not be like us is past understanding

I try hard, why this conflict?

I really do want to understand why the world has so many conflicts going on now.
Seems to be spreading from one part of the globe to another.

Having a responsibility to God if no one else, I seek to understand why the world is not at peace and we have wars going on all over the globe.

For my own sanity I am in pursuit of why this is.
I live in a neighborhood that none of us are at war with one another, we each respect each man to make up his own mind how he runs his own household, all long as he does not come into my house and tell me what to do, there is peace.

If this works for my neighborhood, why not nations?



Territorial integrity of Russia
A little of geography realities.

Are we going not to recognize territorial integrity of Russia ? Otherwise all the attempts to consider a nuclear power with ***the largest territory in the world******* as second rank country, be it evil or benevolent, are doomed to failure. (I actually think it is evil towards USA and Georgia, but that is not the point.)

I do not seek to place blame
I know I have pointed out what is reported as the reason Russia in now in Georgia.

What caused this is my only concern.
Are there policies that brings Russia and Georgia into conflict?

This is what Patrick is talking about, he is not here in support of "Mother" Russia.
Pat has been involved with the subject of Foreign Affairs longer than most here on this thread have been alive.

Yet watch how he is attacked personally with all sorts of accusations of being for the nazis, the communists, the terrorists and is anti semetic and wants to see Jews go to a furnace (read Carlos)

Its unbelievable how this man gets attacked for trying to use history to show how policies of nations brought them into conflict and war.
I have disagreements with Patrick over Israel, I could be called a Zionist and have been called a Zionist due to my support of Israel.
But I understand Patrick's point of view is about policy issues that bring conflict and war.

I disagree with him at the fundamentals of what is causing all the warfare in Israel and that part of the mid-east.
But I do not see his criticism as cause he hates the Jews or wants them to all die.

And for me, the really stupid ones are the people like Carlos, etal.
Who come to attack the man and not the issues with any sort of solutions themselves.
Just rah rah rah for our team, that is so stupid in my view.




Me and my neighbor
Get along fine.
I stay out of his personal affairs, and he stays out of mine.

I think he may come to resent me if I built a high fence all around my property and placed machine gun towers on each corner of my property.

He would especially be upset at at me if a rich outsider came into my neighbor hood and paid for all my "defensive" works.

He probably thinks I view him as a threat to me and just may resent it, I do not know why though.
(tongue in cheek)

If America wants other nations mind their own business, THEN LETS FOR ONCE MIND OUR OWN AND BE AN EXAMPLE!

This is causing problems all over the world right now, the USA and our Foreign Policy has been HI-JACKED from a real American Foreign Policy that was in place since G Washinton.
Mind out own damn business!
Quit poking our fat nose into all the worlds affairs as if we are so damn pure and have no problems to deal with here.
We have become a nation of HYPOCRITES!
Meddling in other nations affairs, and gaining nothing but hate for this stupid, asinine, busy body foreign policy of this moron in office now.
Who is now trying to divide Jerusalem,this very day, forgetting how small this arrogant little %^&& (man) is in the powers of the world.

He has forgotten God who is the one in control, and He said He chose Jerusalem as the apple of His eye.
Here goes the President poking not just Russia in the eye, but God too.


Talent Scout,
As I have stated before, I think that Pat truly loves his country and wants to protect it. As I cannot look into his heart, I do not call him an anti-this or anti-that.

I just think he is profoundly wrong and a revisionist. His history is about as reliable as Ward Churchill's.

Being “involved with the subject of Foreign Affairs longer than most” is no guarantee of competence. If it were, I would be a booster of the terminal idiot Joe Biden. I believe that Biden loves his country also.

BTW, Because Arabs are also a Semitic people, the phrase anti-Semite makes no sense at all.


Good points my friend
I am not your enemy because I try and see this problem as clear as my dinky little mind can work it our for me to understand it all.
I do not want war with Russia, or others.
=====
WAY Down South writes: 11:15 AM EST
Subject: Talent Scout,
As I have stated before, I think that Pat truly loves his country and wants to protect it. As I cannot look into his heart, I do not call him an anti-this or anti-that.
==
ts:
I see that, but look at all the ones who do and add nothing but stupid mind boggling personal attacks like the liberals are famous for and call themselves "conservatives" ha ha.
This is not my conservative views to attack people with dumb accusations that go no where but into a sewage of arguments that cure nothing.
Just add to all the fighting and squabbling among ourselves and we get set one against another and fight among ourselves.
This will never bring any peace, here or abroad, just stimulate more anger and wrath.

cont...



Pat has gone by his "Use By" date
I used to regard Pat as an icon but lately he just seems like a confused and bitter old man. How he can constantly take the side of tyrants while blaiming everyone else for the barbarism they generate. He now is clearly in the "Blame America First" crowd.

His anti-semitism that he has been denying for years is now clearly on display again. And how he can turn a blind eye to Russian adventurism is breath-taking.

Whether Georgia had the right to protect their territory from the intrusions of the rebellious provinces is subject to debate. However, Georgia had over two thousand troops supporting our efforts and we couldn't even do more than tepidly scold the Russian Bear for their atrocities!

This is the real issue. Potential allies can look to America and see us as a paper tiger and not someone who will stand with you when things get tough. Over and over we have exhorted countries to stand up against tyranny promising our support only to abandon them just when they need us the most. We have always cowered from Russia whether in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, or now in Georgia. We encouraged Shiites to stand up against Saddam Hussein after the first Gulf War, and then when they did we stood by doing nothing while they were slaughtered.

Russian went into Georgia as a test of how the West would react. They now know they can proceed in any actions with impunity.

These are dark and disgraceful days. We are in great peril if BHO becomes President. Russia is forming an alliance with Iran, Syria, Venezuela, and a resurgent Cuba. They are on the march and know that we are too cowardly to resist them.

WAY Down South writes:
I just think he is profoundly wrong and a revisionist. His history is about as reliable as Ward Churchill's.
==
ts:
This is an honest disagreement over the issues, and perfectly legitimate.
I support your right to speak up and tell me and all what you think.
I also believe very strongly Patrick ha sthis same right, and I will stand up for him to speak up in how he sees it all.
=====
WAY Down South writes:
Being “involved with the subject of Foreign Affairs longer than most” is no guarantee of competence. If it were, I would be a booster of the terminal idiot Joe Biden. I believe that Biden loves his country also.
==='
ts:
I accept this and honestly goes without saying.
"great men are not always wise, neither do the aged have understanding.
BUT there is a spirit in a man, and the Inspiration of the Almighty gives him understanding" Job

So I listen for Inspiring truth, and I know minding my own business works in my neighborhood very well.
I have no conflicts with a single one of my neighbors.
And honestly, I prefer to have this peace with them and not be at war.

====
WAY Down South writes:

BTW, Because Arabs are also a Semitic people, the phrase anti-Semite makes no sense at all.
===
ts:
Exactly.
Even the Jews have disageements

Talentscout
You have resorted to irrelevent whatevers instead of telling me where I am mistaken. You don't like my take on the issue. Fine.
We both know, and probably agree that the President and Condi Rice, don't have a clue as to how to address this situation. We both can probably agree that Putin and Russia perceive themselves to be pushed into a corner, by some perceived NATO / U.S. threat.
Where we don't agree is that Putin is a choirboy. And that Georgia is at fault for all the fighting. I went back some 52 months in researching to see what had been reported on this situation, by both sides. I have also spoken with a couple of Americans that rotated in/out of the region during the build-up to this mess. Mikheil Saakashvili isn't smart enuf; or stupid enuf for that matter, to have purposely twisted Putins tail, just because. Putin has been actively interferring with the internal security of Georgia for the past five years. Do the research - if you can factually render Putin guiltless in the fostering of civil war in Georgia; trot out those facts.
Putin is the primary surviving "alpha predator" from the good old days of the KGB. He's a most dangerous man and he is as smart as most American politicians are stupid. Including Bush & Rice.
Ukraine is next on Putins hit-list. Wait & see.

Dwain Cleveland

Eastern Europe
The Eastern European states that wish to remain free of Russian control should form their own constitutional republic, similar to what the US originally had.

This argument he brings makes no sense

To me in what I have said on this thread.
Having seen his attitude many times in the past, I know its going to be futile to counter his claims.
But...cannot ignore as he addressed to me and deserves a response.
===

Hydrogen Production Engineer writes:- 11:43 AM EST
Subject: Talentscout
You have resorted
===
ts:
He begins his argument with an attitude at me personally,and comes across clearly on what he is fixing to say.
I already know, cause he is wanting to make this argument between him and I.
And I am "resorting" as if I have somewhere to go other than face him in an honest discussion of this issue.
There is no use in me addressing a single thing he says after he has shown me such an attitude.
It will do no good for me to try and explain what I am saying with additional explanation cause he is already determined he has it right and I am falling down backwards "resorting" to hiding something from him and he is too clever to allow me to hide what my "real" argument is about.
Ok, I accept this, he is much to smart for me to pull the wool over his eyes as I am "resorting" to do.

He alone has went back and studied this issue and is here as the only voice that matters, and I see that by his superior ability to have studied this issue no one else has.







To supporters of the view
expressed in P. Buchanan’s columns on Russia/Georgia issue!

Heinz Guderian, a German general interviewed by French officers, claimed:
"If you French had intervened in the Rhineland in 1936, we should have been sunk and Hitler would have fallen".

Hitler himself said:
"The forty-eight hours after the march into the Rhineland were the most nerve-racking in my life. If the French had then marched into the Rhineland we would have had to withdraw with our tails between our legs, for the military resources at our disposal would have been wholly inadequate for even a moderate resistance."

A short historical excursion to follow...

Attention, supporters of the view (#1)
expressed in this P. Buchanan’s column!

Thereby I offer a relatively short excursion into the historical domain (1935 - 2008)
Nazi Germany:
1. January, 1935. The League of Nations 15-year-term mandate of occupation of the Saargebiet (Saarland) by Britain and France under the Treaty of Versailles is over.
A plebiscite well prepared by Germany shows that 90.3% of voters support re-joining Germany.
March, 1935. Germany appoints a Reich's commissioner for re-integration of the Saarland (Reichskommissar für die Rückgliederung des Saarlandes), Josef Bürckel, member of the NSDAP (Nazi Party).

No one word of objection from the rest of the World.

2. January 1936. German forces reoccupy the territory of the western part of Rhineland.
11 years later, after the Second World War, Heinz Guderian, a German general interviewed by French officers, claimed:
"If you French had intervened in the Rhineland in 1936 we should have been sunk and Hitler would have fallen".

Hitler himself later said:
"The forty-eight hours after the march into the Rhineland were the most nerve-racking in my life. If the French had then marched into the Rhineland we would have had to withdraw with our tails between our legs, for the military resources at our disposal would have been wholly inadequate for even a moderate resistance."

Instead, “tails between our legs” became a decoration of the Western peace-lovers; Impudence won!

3. March 11, 1938. The Austrian Nazi Party overthrows Austria's state institutions in Vienna. German Wehrmacht troops enter Austria to enforce the Anschluss (Annexation).
No resistance, even the Allies (Poland, Great Britain with Northern Ireland, and France) were, on paper, committed to upholding the terms of the treaties of Versailles and St.Germain, which specifically prohibited the union of Austria and Germany. Austria had never been a part of Germany.

Peace-lovers keep silence.

To be continued…

Attention, supporters of the view (#2)
expressed in this P. Buchanan’s column!

Continuation…

4. September 29, 1938. Peace-makers Daladier and Chamberlain sign the Münich Agreement.
Chamberlain returns to England with the Agreement in his teeth: “I brought you Peace!”
At that very moment, Hitler occupies the Sudetenland.
5. March 14, 1939. Under heavy direct and personal pressure by Hitler, ex-prime Minister of Slovakia Jozef Tiso easily convinces the Parliament to proclaim Slovakia’s independence as an ally and client state of Nazi Germany.

6. March 15, 1939. The rest of Czechoslovakia became a protectorate to Germany.
Hitler gets the powerful heavy industry of both Czech and Slovakia at his disposal.

7. March 23, 1939. Ministers of Foreign Affairs of Lithuania Juozas Urbšys and that of Germany, Joachim von Ribbentrop, sign the Treaty of the Cession of the Memel Territory to Germany.

Thus, the final peaceful territorial aggrandizement before the start of World War II occurs before peace-loving silent Europe.

The next step of impudent Hitler was military – the attack on Poland on September 1, 1939, the start of the World War II.
That attack was committed on basis of the Molotov-Ribbentrop (read Stalin-Hitler) Pact.

European Peace-lovers started feeling the taste of their love for peace.

All this happened when militarily Germans were still very much stoppable: actual German military build-up started only AFTER Germans took over almost half of the peace-loving tacit Europe.
Impudence won!

To be continued…

There is a Psalm of David
That begins with:
"I am for peace, but when I speak, they are for War".

I believe this is what is happening right here in this thread with all the accusations at Patrick, or at my person cause I want to find an answer that brings PEACE.
Not war

Attention, supporters of the view (#3)
expressed in this P. Buchanan’s column!

Continuation…

The Soviet Union:
1. September 17, 1939: the Soviets, implementing their part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, invade and occupy the Eastern part of Poland.

2. November 30, 1939: the Soviet Union’s Red Army invades Finland, launching the Winter War.

3. June 15, 1940: the USSR invades and occupies Lithuania.

4. June 16, 1940: the USSR invades and occupies Estonia and Latvia, and the Soviet terror started: Order ?001223, "On the Procedure for carrying out the Deportation of Anti-Soviet Elements from Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia", gave detailed instructions for procedures and protocols of the deportation of Baltic nationals.

(The three Baltic countries were occupied by Nazi Germany in 1941-1944 and re-occupied by the USSR in 1944-1991.)

5. June 26, 1940: the USSR issues an ultimatum to Romania, demanding the evacuation of the Romanian military and administration from Bessarabia and part of Bukovina. Being put in the corner, Romania agrees and the USSR occupies those regions and also with no explanation - part of Chernovitsi Oblast.

All of the above was part of a larger context of Nazi-Soviet build-up for the WWII with the connivance of the “peace-loving” West.

That “love of peace” led to over 72,000,000 of deaths:
Military toll – about 25,000,000; civilian toll – about 47,000,000; of the total, the Allies lost approx. 61 MLN; the Axis – 11 MLN.

In other words, peace-loving countries lost over 5.5 times more humans than aggressors!

Thank you much, Mrs. Love-of-Peace!

To be continued…

Attention, supporters of the view (#4)
expressed in this P. Buchanan’s column!

Ending…

1991-2008:
Russia is consistently building and injecting 5th Columns inside former USSR territories.
Implementation of long- nurtured plans to rebuild (aka re-conquer) the Greatness of the former USSR began:
1. Establishment of the SNG (the Union of the Independent States) (“independent” states are under constant strict control by Russia that regulates their behavior by the oil valve.)

2. Self-proclaimed independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (just like in Sudetenland)

3. Issuing and granting Russian passports to Crimea inhabitants (who are officially Ukraine citizens), Moldavians, and inhabitants of Baltic countries.

4. Having successfully prepared an “ethnical clash” in Caucasus, Russia got “outraged” by the Georgia’s attempt (maybe, not very well performed) to regain control over the breakaway provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and invaded the sovereign country with the connivance of the peace-loving West.

Nobody sees any similarity to 1939-1940?

What next?
Logically, full annexation of Ossetia, Abkhazia, Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Moldavia, Lithuania,…
Byelorussia with its Stalin-like President Lukashenko already joined Russia de-facto...

As of now, Russia, while being still rich of nuclear warheads, has very much outdated weaponry and military industry incomparably weaker that that of NATO or the USA.
Large in number military human resources fall short of modern requirements and their Western counterpart.
But Putin (and now his puppet Medvedev, too) is doing everything in his power to update Russia's military might.

And yet, he is still stoppable in his aggressions.
Just like Hitler was in 1936.

Constantine Ivanov,
Please permit me to add something to your fine summary.

Hitler did not want to meet with Chamberlain and Daladier at München. He wanted to go to war. He met with them only because his ally, Mussolini, insisted. If Chamberlain and Daladier had not offered-up the Sudetenland at München, Hitler would have ordered the Wehrmacht to march on Czechoslovakia. He desperately wanted a war so that he could test his armed forces. The OKH did not want to march on Czechoslovakia and was prepared to overthrow Hitler the moment the order to march was issued. These officers were absolutely stunned when Chamberlain and Daladier caved.

The world could have been finished with him at this moment as well.


To call Saakashvili's attack on Ossetia
As a means to peace, from a peace maker is saying when Hitler invaded Poland was to seek for peace from a peace making guy

Incredible Nonsense By Buchanan
This is incredible nonsense by Buchanan. Georgia is a small democratic nation that has sought to do nothing more than to have its government sovereign over two provinces that have historically been Georgian and that re recognized by internatinal law to be Georgian. Russia's pre-planned massive invasion of Georgia has nothing to do with Italian Fascist Mussolini's moves in 1934 with respect to Gernam National Socialist Hitler's purge of the German National Socialist Party. Nor does Israel's 1967 war for self-preservation against an Arab world that massively out-numbered the Israelis have anything to do with Georgia.

We are not recreating the Cold War. What is happening in Georgia and Russia is the result of KGB Putin's design to recreate the Russian Empire. KGB Putin is re-socializing the Russian economy. The media in Russia in reverting to its ways under Sovite Union. KGB Putin has the real power. Buchanan is just wrong as can be to be blaming ourselves for Putin's designs.

In my opinion, Buchanan should not be considered a conservative. In foreign policy matters, he is an isolationist like left wing isolationists. The last time he ran for public office, he ran as a populist. This article would fit well into a Democrat argument of blaming America.

Peace is not wanted, is the problem
The world is wanting war, its the spirit of the of nations today, and war they will have, watch.
If the world wanted peace, the world would allow the South Ossetians their Right to determine their own fate and government.

This will not be allowed for South Ossetia as the world did this very thing for Kosovo.
Taking ancient Serbian Land away from Belgrade and handing it over to Albanians.

Everyone can see this hypocritical difference of treatment, even the Russians



A perfect understanding of history
With perfect knowledge, even knowing every single man who has ever lived in the history of the world will not stop war.

Knowing something will not change a desire to be at war.

Knowledge alone is not a cure, if it were there would never be a single crime in the world, and all would get along.

Finding fault and placing blame is no answer either from anyone not in charge of policy.
War will come or go according to what the man in charge does, not what he knows to be right.

Of course Saakashvili's attack in South Ossetia is right in his own eyes.
Simply because men like him refuse to recognize another man's rights.

Saakashvili wants to decide what rights the people of South Ossetia have.

The Russians have said they will go to war if
Saakashvili insists only he has such a right.

Two opposing views and everyone is picking sides that neither one is intending to change, knowing it is going to bring war, they choose to follow this path to war.

They know this, so having knowledge will not matter in any of what the history is.

The only thing that matters is a man who insists he is the one who will decide this issue and will fight Russia to have his own way in South Ossetia.
Cause he knows the "truth"

Putin and the Rhineland...
Pat is anything but an idiot..the guy is very smart, even when he's wrong. That makes it doubly more difficult. I think he makes interesting points, but the argument does not hold together.

Putin's invading Georgia feels alot like Hitler and the Rhineland - it was a gamble, but probably a more sure gamble because they were in a much stronger position than Hitler was.

Putin already is supplying Iran and our enemies with weaponry. The missle shield in Poland is not about Russia - it is about Iran. I can see why Russia would be worried, but odds are, we heavily more at risk by an Iranian missle, than by a Russia missle, don't we think? We need Poland to quickly intercept this true Hitler II in Iran.

Putin made a calculated incursion into Georgia -Why? Because he could get a way with it. Pure and simple. Everything else is made up pretenses. He wants to restore the glory of Russian empire. I have a hard time believing that we are driving Russia into the arms of the Iranians...I didn't know Russia needed such help.


Russians can read English
FreedomResponsibility writes: - 1:27 PM EST


Putin already is supplying Iran and our enemies with weaponry. The missle shield in Poland is not about Russia - it is about Iran

====
ts:
When Russia invaded Georgia, the members of the US Congress and Senate began to talk about spending more money for missiles and arms to protect Poland and Ukrania, and other eastern european nations.

Russians can see this is about them and what they do, not Iran.
Now people can think the Russians are stupid enough to actually believe the missiles are to guard against Iran if they want to.
But it only matters to the Russians what they think, not you or the President.


We would now be at War w/Russia
If Georgia had already been in NATO.

Without consulting anyone else Saakashvilli got into a war with Russia over South Ossetia.

How wise is it to allow this one man such power to decide for all the western nations if we are to go to war with Russia or not?

We better be glad this man was not already in NATO.

If Georgia had been in NATO
Russia would've never invaded because they would not have risked the confrontation knowing in this case, we would've been forced to respond.

The die was cast for Russia's adventurism once Germany shot down Georgia's bid for entrance to NATO last April. That was a wink, wink from our great EU friends to Putin that he was free to do as he liked and they would not interfere. Even the great Sarkozy is credited with an assist when he brokered the "cease-fire" that granted the Russians the right to retain "Peacekeepers" on Georgian soil.

We never stand up to the Russians and never will until it is too late and then things will get very, very hot. The Russians, chess masters that they are, understand this very well and will push the envelope as far to the edge as they think they can.

People better realize the Russian Bear has only been in hibernation since the collapse of the Soviet Union and are now fully awake, stuffed with oil money, and on the March to claim the fame they believe is due Mother Russia.

We underestimate this intent at our extreme peril.

This is assuming a lot
PV writes:- 3:15 PM EST
Subject: If Georgia had been in NATO
Russia would've never invaded because they would not have risked the confrontation knowing in this case, we would've been forced to respond.
===

To rely on Russia being intimidated is risky adventure.

Its the same attitude that some hikers have gone into the woods with, unarmed and eaten by a bear.

The Russians have stated their own stance, and its worth a thought, if for nothing else but seeing if they are actually armed and capable of war.

Their history is a strong indication they will fight.
I guess one can think they do not mean what they say if he wants to though and push them to find out if they really mean what they say.
I see no wisdom in that, but its what has caused wars in the past and will cause them in the future as well.


TS
You are exactly right. Lots of wars have been started by thinking the other side would never risk a war by doing this or that only to be suprised when it turns out they will.

Some examples of this thinking:

The Chinese would never go to war over Korea; the Japanese would cave to US demands, Yankees won't care if the South left the Union. There all proved to be wrong and lead to a terrible amount of bloodshed. For all those pro-Georgians, are you SURE Russia won't go to war over South Ossentia?

Akagi
I believe anyone can see what Patrick is talking about if they want to see.

I know I can understand his point is worth thinking over and I know I am out of the box if I do not fall in line with the Presidents pushing of Russia.

I know some Russians, they are not scared of war, in fact many of them are as Nationalistic and as Patriotic as the best American is for love of this country.
In its Founders ideas, not the neocon and the "compassionate conservative" GW Bush issuing threats all over the world.

Who worries about the border of every nation but this one and the only one he is elected to concern himself about.
We did not elect a world leader, we elected a President of the USA, or so we once thought.

I wish he cared as much for Americans and our borders as he does for the rest of the world

Notice that Pat has to get in th
anti-Semitic comment about "Israelis occupying the birthplace of Jesus." Note to Pat: Jesus was a Jew and so are most Israelis. Pat hates Georgia because it is democratic. Pat loves dictatorships. He is a sick man and should be removed from TH because of his dementia.

Alternate histories...
Pat has spent so much time delving into the creation of alternate histories that he doesn't spend much time in the real world any more. Sad thing, too, cause he really is a very smart person.

Ali...

Patrick has noted that Hitler was "an individual of great courage".

He takes great (unending) opposition to anyone who dares support Israel.

We can assume a little slant in Patrick's thinking :)

Russia Has Recognized The Two Regions.
If the report I read on AOL is correct, Russia today officially recognized the two breakaway regions. This announcement changes the state of the world as we know it.

Putin has done his cost benefit analysis. He believes that his new empire is worth a new Cold War. He obviously believes that the West will cave due to their need (especially Germany) for his pipeline. Perhaps he is correct. We shall see.

The convention news is irrelevant in comparison to this announcement.

Ali
"Notice that Pat has to get in th
anti-Semitic comment about "Israelis occupying the birthplace of Jesus." Note to Pat: Jesus was a Jew and so are most Israelis."

BS. Pat knows as well as any intelligent person that knows their history that the zionists are most definitely NOT ethnic Jews and are occupying the true people of Christ.

The Zionists are simply a socialist Kingdom using a poltically CHOSEN religion to further their power.

They are NOT semites, they are Europeans that have absolutely zero claim to Jesus Christ or Jerusalem.

The State of Isreal is an abomination to Christianity. And zionist supporters of this OCCUPATION are advocates of the anti-christ.

Ethnic Jews are just as persecuted as palestinians by the Zionist occupiers. Just ask any REAL ethnic shephardic Jew (read of Jesus' people) how they are treated in Isreal.

It you that either don't know what you are talking about, or you spend all day trying to intentionally confuse the State of Isreal for ethnic Jewish people.

My bet is on the latter. I can't imagine that you would have such strong opinions about a topic that you didn't really know anything about.

Heroic Pat Buchanan
Pat has the courage to take controversial stands that drive his detractors into sheer hysteria.

If you apply the Founding Father's wise advice to have friendly trade relations with all nations, but entangling alliances with none, you can see that Russia could easily be a very good trade partner. Russia has all kinds of natural resources just waiting to be developed. American technology could help develop them. But that is unlikely to happen so long as the US government is run by Neocon nitwits who want to antagonize and isolate Russia.

Regarding Georgia and Russia, the conflict is entirely between them. There is no need to get involved at all. As John Quincy Adams said, it is not America's business to go about the world seeking monsters to destroy. It is our business to improve our own country and maintain friendly relations with others, while maintaining excellent defensive capabilities. In other words, we could learn a lot from the Swiss.

Directly from Russia
This is what Way down south just posted about

Russia to support Abkhazia, S.Ossetia if they are attacked
20:27 | 26/ 08/ 2008



SOCHI, August 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will defend Abkhazia and South Ossetia with all necessary support if they come under attack, President Dmitry Medvedev said on Tuesday.

"Under the decree recognizing independence of both republics, which I have signed, our country will help Abkhazia and South Ossetia to ensure their security and if they are attacked we will certainly offer them appropriate support," Medvedev told CNN.

Russia's president signed decrees earlier on Tuesday recognizing Georgia's breakaway South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states and called on other countries to follow suit.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080826/116296248.html

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?


When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated.
When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced.

Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?
Pat Buchanan

Dismiss it if you want to, but..
Russia had no choice but counterattack in S.Ossetia - Gorbachev
18:27 | 13/ 08/ 2008



MOSCOW, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev said Russia had no choice but to launch a counterattack to Georgia's offensive in breakaway South Ossetia, but it is still possible to find a political solution to the crisis.

"What happened on the night of August 7 is beyond comprehension," Gorbachev said in an article The Guardian published on Wednesday. "The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas."

"Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against 'small, defenseless Georgia' is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity," he said in the article.

"Nevertheless, it was still possible to find a political solution."



Gorbachev said some Western nations' positions prevented the UN Security Council from acting effectively at the start of the conflict. He also said that by declaring the Caucasus region that is thousands of miles from the American continent a sphere of its "national interest," the U.S. made a serious blunder.

"Of course, peace in the Caucasus is in everyone's interest. But it is simply common sense to recognize that Russia is rooted there by common geography and centuries of history. Russia is not seeking territorial expansion, but it has legitimate interests in this region,"

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080813/116014626.html

Reply to PV from CT
Your analysis was spot on....what I've been saying since the early 90's......great insight on YOUR part!

"We never stand up to the Russians and never will until it is too late and then things will get very, very hot. The Russians, chess masters that they are, understand this very well and will push the envelope as far to the edge as they think they can.

People better realize the Russian Bear has only been in hibernation since the collapse of the Soviet Union and are now fully awake, stuffed with oil money, and on the March to claim the fame they believe is due Mother Russia.

We underestimate this intent at our extreme peril."

Spot on.....and Mr. Buchanan knows of what you speak as well.......

Somebody please explain to me

Let me for the sake of arguement concede that Georgia is at fault and Russian was just looking out for South Ossetia. Okay.

Somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe te motives of Russia?
Can somebody explain to me a scenario where these things are taking place and yet how Russia is not really interested in playing the aggressor with former Soviet satellit countries as well?
Does Russia not push these countries out in the cold every winter when they withhold gas required for heating... threfore allowing Russia to manipulate the politics of these 'sovreign' states?


Explain this for me David
I have spent hours reading different news sources and blogs concerning this story.

I have read its the Russians fault and they are lying and have read the opposite as well.

Without going into the details day by day from 1992 when a peace agreement was made and finding who done what first...why not just give South Ossetia and Abhazia its liberty to decide their own fate?

Its what the President is trying to do to the arabs in Palestine and what has already been done for Kosovo.

Why not these people too?
Why the double standard?

I could go into how illegal it was of NATO to take from Serbia its say in what happened in Kosovo, but it serves no purpose at this time.

I just ask this
Why can't the people of those two areas have the same rights to decide for themselves this issue?

Remove both Russia and Georgia, let the people decide it who live there

Somebody please tell me
Okay Talent Scout... so why then does Russian feel threatened when other satellite countries see this and seek measures to defend themselves? They don't believe the answer is as simple as the one you gave me. They feel like their next. Can you simply answer my question or not?

Ranger... we attacked Iraq because Bush felt threatened the same way Putin feels threatened by Georgia? Really? Actually on the eve of the United States initial 'shock and awe' saddam was threatening us to do worse than what we saw on 9/11. Do you remember that? This is after the world came to a consensus that he had WMD. Congress voted for the war not based on our intelligence alone. Do you remember him threatening us? Sachashvelli is the equivalent to Saddam? Putin the equivalent of Bush?

Again will somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe te motives of Russia?
Can somebody explain to me a scenario where these things are taking place and yet how Russia is not really interested in playing the aggressor with former Soviet satellit countries as well?
Does Russia not push these countries out in the cold every winter when they withhold gas required for heating... threfore allowing Russia to manipulate the politics of these 'sovreign' states?

Wait up a minute
David writes:2:24 AM EST
Subject: Somebody please tell me
Okay Talent Scout... so why then does Russian feel threatened when other satellite countries see this and seek measures to defend themselves?
===
ts:
Ok, like Ukraine right?
I agree, they do have the right to decide for themselves and did.
Just like Poland has.
So why you accept those nations having a right to decide this but not the Ossetians or the Abkhazians?

Also consider Kosovo.
Given recognition as an independent State that has been the birth place of Serbia since 1389.
You not see a double standard?
Fine, they do and so do the Russians and many like me
====

David writes:
They don't believe the answer is as simple as the one you gave me.
===
ts:
Yes it is, its the answer you have decided you reject is all.
===



David writes:
They feel like their next. Can you simply answer my question or not?
===
ts:
I will go and read it first, again, I forgot what it was, but answer mine with something that is not so unanswering as this:

"They don't believe the answer is as simple as the one you gave me."

You call this an answer?
Ha, I do not, I call it what it is.

The Ossetains also believe, just the opposite, so why is their beliefs discounted by you to accept "they" don't believe?

Who is they anyway?

Easy to answer
David writes: 12:27 AM EST
Subject: Somebody please explain to me

Let me for the sake of arguement concede that Georgia is at fault and Russian was just looking out for South Ossetia. Okay.

Somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe te motives of Russia?
===
ts:

Cuban Missile Crisis
I was down there.
This country was very concerned and went to the HIGHEST Military Alert in our history since WWII.
Defcon III

The Cuban Missile Crisis began 22 October1962. Following intelligence reports that the USSR was installing ballistic missiles in Cuba capable of hitting US and Canadian targets, President John Kennedy announced an American naval blockade of the island, threatening further action if preparation of the sites continued.


The activation of the 550th Strategic Missile Squadron along with a sister squadron at Lincoln, Nebraska, on April 1, 1961, marked the first standing up of Atlas F units. In June 1962, the first operational sites for the Atlas F ICBMs were accepted by SAC and in September the squadron was declared operational. In the following month during the Cuban missile crisis, the 550th received orders to maintain all 12 missiles on alert status.


Why would anyone think the Russians do not have this same right to be intimidated by the actions of NATO.
Formed to defend against the USSR, no longer in existance but now pushing into Russian Border States?

Kosovo yes, Ossetia no? Why not
Equality of the law?

Subject: What International Law
Was applied in granting Kosovo Independence that cannot be applied to South Ossetia?
To Abkhazia?

To have any sort of mutual co-operation from the nations of the world the same principles of law must be equal.

I have been looking for some law the International Community has agreed upon and all Nations Ratified agreeing in principle the United States of America has the right to take Kosovo away from the Serbian people and give it to the Albanians who had moved there.

With this principle, the American Southwest is soon to be Mexico, and this is NOT HYPE.
Same thing is happening here, foreign citizens are moving into America and allowed to work and make claims California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and Southern Colorado (my home) as belonging to Mexico, and I am not kidding.

Then by what International Principle of Law gives the President the right to force the Jews to give up land to the Arabs and create a new State, giving them 23 States.(I believe this is right)

If there is such a principle in International Law that gives the President this power, why is it not applicable to South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

Anyone can see through this sort of hypocrisy, even the Russians and the Ossetians

Agree to disagree
First, you really didn't answer the point to my question. The question is why other countries feel the need to protect themselves after Russia moved into Georgia.

Your answer only dealt with why Russia feels threatened. Your answeer compares the Cubans pointing nuclear missles at the United States in the '60's as the same as satellite countries accepting missle defense and NATO prtection against Russian aggression and Russian missles.
Missles defense and NATO protection are in no way intended to make acts of war on Russia the way the Cuban missles were intended to make war with the United States. The satellite countries are clearly making defensive measures to protect themselves from Russian invasion.
Your comparison doesn't work at all.

And for your other post... First, you are using Russian talking points for its rational for its latest actions. Second, Kosovo is not the same. Unless you can show evidence that there has been ethnic cleansing involved in South Ossetia and Abkhazia then I find that comparison is seriously lacking as well... though I am sure the Russians don't mind you promoting their talking points. Russia let me remind you has for one of their main news publications a piece of work called PRAVDA which translates into 'the truth.' This is how seriously they take their propaganda.
For now we will have to agree to disagree but I appreciate your opinions.

Not about talking points for me David
Fair question and deserves an answer.

Why Kosovo and not Ossetia?

It is also a fair question you ask, and seems obvious this cold war stuff is coming back.
Wonder why that is?

My observation is it looks like this President is wanting to provoke Russian relationships.
I know, this is denied, but I already satisfied myself he has not done it any good with his policies.
Have you read PNAC's goals?


Quite a few sticking points, from Iran to the oil and gas pipelines.

I think we have way too an ambitious foreign policy

You won't answer my question
First your subject: I am not suggesting that you have talking points of any kind, I am just pointing out the fact that theway you see things fall right in line with Russian talking points.

Why Kosovo and not Ossetis? I answered that by saying that they are not the same... and unless you can show evidence that there is ethnic cleansing is going in Ossetia and Abkhazia then your comparison is just a bad one. Why don't we compare it with the United States then? Maybe Jefferson Davis should have gone on trial to defend the Southern states right to suscede from the union... or maybe it was better that that didn't happen?

Your problem is for me is that you haven't answered my question yet. Why don't you reread my last post and atleast give it an attempt. As for me I am not going to blame the United States for Russian aggression.

The question Mr. Talent won't answer
Here it is again: Again for the sake of arguement I concede that Georgia is at fault and Russian was just looking out for South Ossetia. Okay.

Somebody explain to me why Russia feels threatened when other countries make moves to protect themselves because they don't believe the motives of Russia?

To help the emphisis of this quesiton was not meant to be placed on Russia but about those who are defensively responding to Russia... the question is why? why are they responding this way? answer why.

This happened after Russia was being a do-gooder protecting to southern neighbors right? Mr. Talent, why such a reaction from these other countries? That is what you have not answer and I supposed will not...

As of yet Talent Scout hasn't not answered this question... except has bought into bad examples of comparing Kosova (for reasons given), the Cuban Missile Crisis (for reasons given), and would rather ignore that this is an issue of Russian aggression which causes every East European satellite country to go on defense-- when they weren't the ones attacked?

Mr. Talent calls it as he sees it... but his views put him squarely in favoring the Russian Vladamir Putin and the talking points of the Kremlin... that is me calling it as I see it... over the decisions of the Western nations led by the United States and the next head of the European Union Sarkozy (who will be there when Bush is not)...
As for me I will not blame America for Russian Aggression.

Does not Russia push these coutnries out in the cold every winter when they control gas lines, sqeezing them, and then using it as leverage to directly manipulate these countries politics? another question I don't expect Mr. Talent to answer.

Here David
Tbilisi admits misjudging Russia
By Jan Cienski in Tbilisi

Published: August 21 2008 19:21 | Last updated: August 21 2008 19:21

Georgia did not believe Russia would respond to its offensive in South Ossetia and was completely unprepared for the counter-attack, the deputy defence minister has admitted.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d8beefe-6fad-11dd-986f-0000779fd 18c,dwp_uuid=66e078d0-66ca-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html?ncli ck_check=1

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How can I give you an answer to that question without writing a book?

Seems to me there are so many reasons and most of it comes from Russia's nasty history, but there is more going on now that is causing the old tensions to come back and a new cold war.

The President has been working hard to insure the Russians stay angry.


David is being typical of the idea
Everything we do is right and every they do is wrong.

Why does America have a Military is the same reason other nations have a Military, including Russia.
Russia has been guilty of some very nasty history on its own people, let alone its neighbors.

They are dangerous people, always have been and always will be.
So why not try to make them friends instead of making them enemies?
I mean if its possible to do, and if we can have a dialoge with the Communist Chinese why not the Russians?

David and a few others, that were not of David's caliber thought I defend the Russians cause I am trying to warn about the danger in making them mad at the world, and they are very dangerous people in control of Russia right now.
This is where my concern is, I do not want to see a war with Russia just because we feel its our right to do anything we want to in their area of the world.

None of our business to be poking them like been being done, from Kososvo to Georgia now.

Kosovo is no different than S. Ossetia, Abkhazia.
Give them the same treatment


This is hypocritical, at least how I see
It
Two other examples of the President working to take land from one nation to give to another, yet refuses this for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Read up on Kososvo and Israel.
The Bush "road map for peace"(ha ha)

Israel must give up land to the Arabs, according to Bush.
Serbia must give up land to the Albanians, according to Bush

Georgia must NOT give up land to the Ossetains and the Abkhazians, cause they favor Russian idenity and government over Georgia.

Pure hypocrisy in my book

Didn't answer my question, didn't expect
Hypocritical and typical?...
Do you really think I or anybody wants to go to war with Russia, really?
Which European country? Who in the U.S.?
Do you really think the administration is doing what they are doing becasue they want another war? And with Russia?

And I am not about to agree with you on Kosovo... I think that the comparison between them and the others are dead wrong... tell me: was there ethnic cleansing in ossetia or abkhazia? yes or no. yes or no. yes or no.

If you say yes then you have somewhere to start, if no... then we must agree to disagree.
Do you think the Southern states should have been allowed to separate itself from the Union? Do you think it was better that they didn't?

Also, you didn't answer my initial question... just answer it Mr. Talent. What is hypocritical and typical is you not being able to answer my question. Just do it, Talent. Why the reaction from the satellite countries?
Watch, you won't answer.

Revisionist History
David Writes:

Reply # 69
"Ranger... we attacked Iraq because Bush felt threatened the same way Putin feels threatened by Georgia? Really? Actually on the eve of the United States initial 'shock and awe' saddam was threatening us to do worse than what we saw on 9/11. Do you remember that?"

Nope. And I bet nobody else does either, because it didn't happen and you just made that up out of whole cloth. Why not leave revisionist history up to the professionals?

You could at least pick a time that was likely before any of us were born to make up lies.
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