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Tuesday, August 19, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who Started Cold War II?
by Pat Buchanan
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The American people should be eternally grateful to Old Europe for having spiked the Bush-McCain plan to bring Georgia into NATO.

Had Georgia been in NATO when Mikheil Saakashvili invaded South Ossetia, we would be eyeball to eyeball with Russia, facing war in the Caucasus, where Moscow's superiority is as great as U.S. superiority in the Caribbean during the Cuban missile crisis.

If the Russia-Georgia war proves nothing else, it is the insanity of giving erratic hotheads in volatile nations the power to drag the United States into war.

From Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan, as Defense Secretary Robert Gates said, U.S. presidents have sought to avoid shooting wars with Russia, even when the Bear was at its most beastly.

Truman refused to use force to break Stalin's Berlin blockade. Ike refused to intervene when the Butcher of Budapest drowned the Hungarian Revolution in blood. LBJ sat impotent as Leonid Brezhnev's tanks crushed the Prague Spring. Jimmy Carter's response to Brezhnev's invasion of Afghanistan was to boycott the Moscow Olympics. When Brezhnev ordered his Warsaw satraps to crush Solidarity and shot down a South Korean airliner killing scores of U.S. citizens, including a congressman, Reagan did -- nothing.

These presidents were not cowards. They simply would not go to war when no vital U.S. interest was at risk to justify a war. Yet, had George W. Bush prevailed and were Georgia in NATO, U.S. Marines could be fighting Russian troops over whose flag should fly over a province of 70,000 South Ossetians who prefer Russians to Georgians.

The arrogant folly of the architects of U.S. post-Cold War policy is today on display. By bringing three ex-Soviet republics into NATO, we have moved the U.S. red line for war from the Elbe almost to within artillery range of the old Leningrad.

Should America admit Ukraine into NATO, Yalta, vacation resort of the czars, will be a NATO port and Sevastopol, traditional home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, will become a naval base for the U.S. Sixth Fleet. This is altogether a bridge too far.

And can we not understand how a Russian patriot like Vladimir Putin would be incensed by this U.S. encirclement after Russia shed its empire and sought our friendship? How would Andy Jackson have reacted to such crowding by the British Empire?

As of 1991, the oil of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan belonged to Moscow. Can we not understand why Putin would smolder as avaricious Yankees built pipelines to siphon the oil and gas of the Caspian Basin through breakaway Georgia to the West?

For a dozen years, Putin & Co. watched as U.S. agents helped to dump over regimes in Ukraine and Georgia that were friendly to Moscow.

If Cold War II is coming, who started it, if not us?

The swift and decisive action of Putin's army in running the Georgian forces out of South Ossetia in 24 hours after Saakashvili began his barrage and invasion suggests Putin knew exactly what Saakashvili was up to and dropped the hammer on him.

What did we know? Did we know Georgia was about to walk into Putin's trap? Did we not see the Russians lying in wait north of the border? Did we give Saakashvili a green light?

Joe Biden ought to be conducting public hearings on who caused this U.S. humiliation.

The war in Georgia has exposed the dangerous overextension of U.S. power. There is no way America can fight a war with Russia in the Caucasus with our army tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nor should we. Hence, it is demented to be offering, as John McCain and Barack Obama are, NATO membership to Tbilisi.

The United States must decide whether it wants a partner in a flawed Russia or a second Cold War. For if we want another Cold War, we are, by cutting Russia out of the oil of the Caspian and pushing NATO into her face, going about it exactly the right way.

Vladimir Putin is no Stalin. He is a nationalist determined, as ruler of a proud and powerful country, to assert his nation's primacy in its own sphere, just as U.S. presidents from James Monroe to Bush have done on our side of the Atlantic.

A resurgent Russia is no threat to any vital interests of the United States. It is a threat to an American Empire that presumes some God-given right to plant U.S. military power in the backyard or on the front porch of Mother Russia.

Who rules Abkhazia and South Ossetia is none of our business. And after this madcap adventure of Saakashvili, why not let the people of these provinces decide their own future in plebiscites conducted by the United Nations or the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe?

As for Saakashvili, he's probably toast in Tbilisi after this stunt. Let the neocons find him an endowed chair at the American Enterprise Institute.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Apollo
ApolloSpeaks:

"I appreciate your analysis, but I don't share your confidence. A badly weakened America could very easily change the equation. This would be a very opportune time for China to strike."

The PLA doesn't hold--yet--the balance in the Strait--that belongs for now to the ROC. While the US may be weak ground forces wise, it still has plenty of air and sea assets in the area--in Japan and in Guam. The US could have forces over the strait in a matter of hours and a move against Taiwan wouldn't be a suprise--it would take days or weeks to prepare the rear areas in Fujian, Zhejiang and Guangdong for the invasion--the US would be well aware of these moves.

If the US was to be involved it would be air and sea assets against PLAN surface ships moving on Taiwan and against the PLAAF aircraft--the J8s would be no match for the US fighters and perhaps hitting some targets in Fujian, etc used to support the invasion. There would be no US ground troops involved.

Even if it managed to make it to the beaches of western Taiwan, it wouldn't have enough forces to make sure the invasion would be a success. Under normal conditions a invasion force needs 3 attackers for every defender. Taiwan though--especially western Taiwan is heavily urbanized--what the US military calls operations in built up areas--here you need a 10:1 advantage. Most of Taiwan is also heavily mountainous. Simply put, the PLA can't put enough troops on Taiwan to win in the urbanized and mountainous environment which is why if Taiwan moved toward independence the PLA would be restricted to a blockade and sending in some of its 800 missiles in Fujian into Taiwan. This would give the US even more time to respond.

But again, as long as Ma and the KMT is in power China will do nothing against it.

Taiwan sends billions of NT across the Strait each year--billions China needs. China has bigger problems without having a war on its hands it doesn't need to fight.


Radar is useless?
It was reported on Thursday that Washington and Ankara had started secret consultations on deploying a U.S. radar in Turkey. If confirmed, this information could do more than complicate matters at the upcoming two-plus-two U.S.-Russia talks in Moscow slated for March 17-18, and will prove an additional source of tension in relations between the two countries.
===
They why is it good in Turkey?

Arms race is back
August 21, 2008, 9:12
Moscow: U.S. missile shield may spark arms race
Russia's Foreign Ministry fears the deployment of a U.S. missile shield just 70 kilometres from its border will lead to an arms race in Europe and beyond.

The statement came after Washington and Warsaw signed a deal to place 10 missile interceptors in Poland, and strengthen military ties between the two countries. A corresponding radar station is to be deployed in the Czech Republic.

Moscow accuses the U.S. of attempting to disrupt balance and stability in the world. On the Wednesday, the day the agreement was signed, oil prices soared to $115 a barrel in response to increased political tensions.

According to Russia, the U.S. missile shield in Europe has nothing to do with threats from Iran as the Middle Eastern state is many years from having the capability to deliver missile strikes on Europe. In July Iran tested its longest-range missile, which it claims is capable of reaching Israel.

Syrian response

Syria says it is ready to host a Russian missile system as a counterweight to U.S. plans.

The Syrian president is in Moscow for talks with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

During Bashar Assad's two-day working visit the parties will focus on military and technical cooperation.

The two leaders will also discuss trade, the peace process in the Middle East and Iran's nuclear ambitions.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29298

How its played out in Russia
Saakashvili may be put on trial in Russia, say prosecutors
Russian investigators have launched a criminal case on charges of genocide in connection with the events in South Ossetia. Russia’s Interfax news agency reports that the Russian General Prosecutor's Office has said Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili may also be put on trial.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29005

====

Russia's NATO envoy calls U.S. missile shield 'dead cat'
21:03 | 15/ 08/ 2008



BRUSSELS, August 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's ambassador to NATO has compared the U.S. missile defense system to "a dead cat," since its effectiveness can only be verified as a result of reciprocal thermonuclear missile strikes.

"The Europeans have received a 'dead cat' from the Americans," Dmitry Rogozin said, commenting on the U.S.-Polish missile-defense deal, signed Thursday.

He said that if the threat really came from Iran, as the U.S. says it does, it would be more "logical to deploy U.S. missile defense elements on NATO's southern flanks - in Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania."

He earlier said the missile defense system for central Europe targets Russia.

Rogozin said that by signing the agreement with the United States, Poland has effectively confirmed that Russia is the focus of the missile shield.

"The Poles should be thanked for helping reveal the strategic goal of the U.S. missile defense plan," Dmitry Rogozin said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

Oh, by the way
We (Bush!) offered Putin SEVERAL TIMES an open access and colaboration with the Radar Interceptor Systems in Czech and Poland.
Putin rejected.

You hear, Scout, Putin rejected the reasonable, politically and technologically substantiated offers!

Why?
Because he prefers playing dirty plays with propaganda stunt-based offers rather than to cooperate with us seriously.
Why? Because being insulted (I even think - righteously) by our wrong-sided actions in Yugoslavia, he is now nurtures, tends to and coddles his chauvinistic idea of becoming again a Super Power.

This is what can happen when a KGB paranoiac feels offended.

Franklin about Scout...Continuation
Ending...

I completely agree with Scout's words:
"The concerns [Putin] has for NATO's real goals stems from him watching what NATO did to Yugoslavia."

I personally firmly believe that supporting rabid Albanian Muslim separatists in the Middle of Europe instead of supporting Christian Serbs fighting for their territory's integrity was really an idiotic decision, and I blame Clinton for his Viagra-based decision to convert Russia into our foe.

But it does not mean that we have to repeat idiotic and immoral decisions today.

Not helping our ally Georgia is idiotic and immoral.
What can I do with this my belief?

Could we help Georgia and still improve our relations with Russia?

I think so. Even it's very difficult and definitely requires a lot of gyri cerebri available.

Benjamin Franklin about Scout:
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason."

Scout wrote:
"...Putin offered the President access to the Russians own Radar Systems right on the Border of Iran.
The President was speechless and ignored Putin's offer.
Proving to Putin that the missiles were not about Iran, but Russia."

Splendid!

I only dare to remind everybody what Iran is bordered on the North side by:
Armenia; Azerbaijan; Turkmenistan.
All three are former Soviet Republics but now they are independent - aka sovereign -:) - countries.

I dare also to remind everybody that Russia DOES NOT HAVE "own Radar Systems right on the Border of Iran." Azerbaijan has.

The proposal mentioned by Scout related right to the Azerbaijan Radar System (not systemS) on the border with Iran.

Any LITERATE person knows that having a radar close to the launch country has more disadvantages than advantages.
The advantage is that you will get earlier warning that a missile has been launched and that would enable you to take certain preparations.

But the disadvantage is that if you have the radar too close to the launch point, the missile will overfly that radar and will then be going away from the radar when the interception is made. It doesn't help the interceptor make the intercept with the missile.

In other words, such a radar becomes rather a simple warning signal instead of being a part of a serious anti-missile system, of which a very significant role the Radar Interceptors in Czech and Poland are designed to play.

Putin is whoever but not an idiot (unlike some of his supporters).
He knew that disadvantage perfectly.
And he knew that his proposal was nothing but a propaganda stunt.

As we see, he succeeded fooling certain Americans, particularly those who want to be fooled.

To be continued…



T*t for Tat
Syria looks for Russian arms deal
By Isabel Gorst in Moscow and Roula Khalaf in London

Published: August 20 2008 18:26 | Last updated: August 20 2008 18:26

Bashar al-Assad, Syria’s president, arrived on a two-day visit to Russia on Wednesday seeking new weapons and greater military co-operation and hoping to capitalise on the rising tensions between Moscow and the west.

In an interview with the Russian daily Kommersant, the Syrian leader said arms talks would top the agenda during discussions on Thursday with Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, in the Black Sea resort of Sochi.

Have to register (free) to read this link
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/e09bb78a-6eda-11dd-a80a-0000779fd18 c,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com %2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fe09bb78a-6eda-11dd-a80a-0000779fd18c.html% 3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fengforum.pravda. ru%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D223096&nclick_check=1

No one in their right mind could think placing missiles in Poland would do any less than raise the tensions.

Scout
Yup.

We seem to think that Putin is a baddie because he has his own country's interests at heart instead of ours.

Web of the spider
Chucky writes: Have to agree with the scout
This is absurd, what we are doing in that part of the world.

Either someone at the State Dept. or in the Executive branch missed a golden opportunity to make of Russia an ally and a global partner when the Soviet Union dissolved but instead we try to encircle her with missles?
===
ts:
When this subject was first offered, by the President, of a missile defense for Poland against rogue States such as Iran, Putin made the President an offer he could not refuse, but did anyway.

If the President had been concerned about Iran and not Russia, Putin offered the President access to the Russians own Radar Systems right on the Border of Iran.
The President was speechless and ignored Putin's offer.
Proving to Putin that the missiles were not about Iran, but Russia.
At least this is the way Putin read it.

The concerns he has for NATO's real goals stems from him watching what NATO did to Yugoslavia.
Then granting ancient Serbian Land to the Albanians who in filtered into Serbia with the very same accusation now the Georgians and NATO are saying about Russians in South Ossetia.

America Elects a President of the USA
We do not elect the President of the world.
If he is promoted as the leader of the free world as the example of freedoms representative, it comes from him doing his job here.
Not interfering in all the nations of the world own private security concerns.

Nothing in his Constitutionally Sworn Duty mentions a single line about using Americans for the cannon fodder in Europe's Wars.

Nothing in his duty about defending Europe by the sacrifice of young patriotic American lives and allow the Europeans to sit on their rears while America defends them.

NATO has been hi-jacked for the planners of global business interests, using the American Military for their protection racket.

"a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils.

by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation."
George Washington

He called it as we see it unfold today


Have to agree with the scout
This is absurd, what we are doing in that part of the world.

Either someone at the State Dept. or in the Executive branch missed a golden opportunity to make of Russia an ally and a global partner when the Soviet Union dissolved but instead we try to encircle her with missles?

Truly there are morons at the top.

American Foreign Policy
So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils.

Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.

It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld.

And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot.

George Washington

In a totally different context....

I just heard someone refer to the next president of the United States being the LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD!!!

Think about that! The president of our great country is, in fact, the LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD!

Does that NOT bring with it SOME world wide responsibility to defend the FREE WORLD?

Think about it, and it's not so easy to walk away, now is it?


Exactly what is happening, this thread
Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other.

Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
George Washington
Farewell Address

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm
=====

Nothing has changed in this truth spoken by the Father of America and our TRUE Foreign Policy.

Many here are taking Georgia's side against Russia.
Easy to do cause the Russians are good targets due to past history.

Real Patriots who believe we are poking our nose into others affairs at our own jeopardy are being called the odious ones on this thread, just as Washington pointed out it would happen with this line:

"Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious,"

I have been attacked and called all sort of names, accusations for wanting nothing more than the same Foreign Policy George Washington recommends.

Quote G Washington again:
"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible.

So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith.
Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation"

Wreckless comments


WARSAW, Poland (AP)—Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her Polish counterpart signed a deal Wednesday to build a U.S. missile defense base in Poland, an agreement that prompted an infuriated Russia to warn of a possible attack against the former Soviet satellite.

Rice dismissed blustery comments from Russian leaders ..

Such comments "border on the bizarre frankly," Rice said, ..

"When you threaten Poland,.. the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States. ..."

This treaty is an abomination to the ideals of America.



Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.

...
Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. ..
George Washington

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm

Scout, didn't I tell you
that you are an amazing creature?

You cited:
"Russia says its response to the further development of a U.S. missile shield in Poland will go beyond diplomacy"

I remind you that the key section of The North Atlantic Treaty, which is the foundation of the NATO, was the Article V which committed each member state to consider an armed attack against one state to be an armed attack against all states.

Therefore, it's absolutely INTERNATIONALLY LEGAL AND JUSTIFIED for Condi Rice to say: "the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States."

Therefore, it's absolutely irresponsible (you see how soft are words I chose in order not to offend your illusion of your talent!) from your side to say that "this is CRIMINAL to say Poland is now a part of the United States, and is EVIL AS IT GETS. She dismisses Russia's statements as bizarre."

Therefore, it's absolutetly outrageous and offensive to say "this woman is so stupid its painful to watch her play the moron for GW Bush and his owners at PNAC."

You just prove again that you have no arguments but a lot of turd in your mouth. Tasty?

Anne writes:
" Now, however, Putin is NOT pulling his troops out of Georgia (surprised anyone???)"
----------------------------------------
No surprise here. Didn't a Russian General say, "forget about us leaving".

Should we blow off their threats against Poland too?

Putin is no different than the American Liberals... They both thought a Brutal and Imperial USSR was a 'good balance' to the USA.

* And 'Wiki' still lists Russia under the listing of "Past imperial countries"?

You call this Diplomacy?
MOSCOW (AP) - Russia says its response to the further development of a U.S. missile shield in Poland will go beyond diplomacy

Condi Rice has responded with this:

WARSAW, Poland (AP)—Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her Polish counterpart signed a deal Wednesday to build a U.S. missile defense base in Poland, an agreement that prompted an infuriated Russia to warn of a possible attack against the former Soviet satellite.

Rice dismissed blustery comments from Russian leaders who say Warsaw's hosting of 10 U.S. interceptor missiles just 115 miles from Russia's westernmost frontier opens the country up to attack.

Such comments "border on the bizarre frankly," Rice said, speaking to reporters traveling with her in Warsaw.

"When you threaten Poland, you perhaps forget that it is not 1988," Rice said. "It's 2008 and the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States. So it's probably not wise to throw these threats around."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92M5GM81&show_arti cle=1


UNBELIEVABLE!

"Rice dismissed blustery comments from Russian"

Blustery?
Unfreakin real!
This woman is so out of touch in defense of choosing sides she is the one who is bizarre.

You see where this has got us all?

Rice said. "It's 2008 and the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States.

This is CRIMINAL to say Poland is now a part of the United States, and is EVIL AS IT GETS.
She dismisses Russia's statements as bizarre.

This woman is so stupid its painful to watch her play the moron for GW Bush and his owners at PNAC


Observe good faith and justice towards
All nations.
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated.

The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.

It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests.

The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy.

..

The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.

...

How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.


From the Narcisstic, Personality Disordered GW Bush Hating George Washington

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm


Observe good faith and justice towards
All nations.
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated.

The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.

It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests.

The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy.

..

The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.

...

How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.


From the Narcisstic, Personality Disordered GW Bush Hating George Washington

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm


Putin the glorious leader
"The swift and decisive action of Putin's army in running the Georgian forces out of South Ossetia in 24 hours after Saakashvili began his barrage and invasion suggests Putin knew exactly what Saakashvili was up to and dropped the hammer on him."

Russia, following Putin's directive, prepared for several months in order to be ready for swift and decisive action in attacking Georgia when the Olympics started. So it was Georgia's initiative to begin the war? Even Hitler was less transparent in his attacks on neighbors.


Scout, we live in amazing times
of moral decomposition...

What formerly ALWAYS was a merit - for instance, helping friends, not betraying allies, and alike - is now being treated as "abuse of Eternal Spiritual Truths" and anti-American.

Happily, not by all Americans.

There still are some respectable Americans available, even being damned and suppressed, suppressed and cursed...

Carlos: Good point! :-)
Now, however, Putin is NOT pulling his troops out of Georgia (surprised anyone???)

Wayne Simmons (former CIA operative) on Fox is saying we have no clout with Russia, BUT we cannot, under any circumstances, allow this to escalate!

Georgia, it appears, is only the first step. The question is, do we "NATO" simply sit back and watch Putin run over Europe?

I hope we're not going to look back and just wish it was only a cold war!


American Foreign Policy
ts:
This is why we are in Afghanistan, Nation Building.
Totally Anti-American Foreign Policy.

talent scout Location: CO
Reply # 4
Date: Aug 20, 2008 - 3:50 PM EST
partners in rebuilding that country.

Below I will quote the President of the United States of the reason we are in Afghnaistan.
Using his own words as he told us all PLAINLY.
We are in Afghanistan to rebuild that nation.

STATE OF THE UNION 2002

January 29, 2002
"we will be partners in rebuilding that country...


This, the following is American Foreign Policy


Washington's Farewell Address 1796

1796

Friends and Citizens:

The period for a new election of a citizen to administer the executive government of the United States being not far distant, and the time actually arrived when your thoughts must be employed in designating the person who is to be clothed with that important trust, it appears to me proper, especially as it may conduce to a more distinct expression of the public voice, that I should now apprise you of the resolution I have formed, to decline being considered among the number of those out of whom a choice is to be made.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm

READ IT ALL, THE LINK IS SUPPLIED TO READ IT ALL

Anne...

It's called "Narcissistic Personality Disorder".

'Lack of Empathy' is more than a fact of life for the Narcissistic disordered person. It colors their world.

To them, Georgia is no different than a furniture store. They do not have realistic feelings, therefore people are just objects.

They have a very hard time changing a light-bulb too...

They hold the Light-bulb up to the socket and wait for the World to revolve around them :)

And they love to eat dry cake mix. Go figure?






Some reflections for Scout

Scout, you wrote:
"When this love of country is abused to justify war over ensuring America is the "leader of the world" and [to justify] our responsibility to make sure the Europeans are protected against Russia as now being promoted, is an abuse of the Patriotism of idealistic men and women who serve with honor and patriotism to this country."

Hopefully, I didn't distort the meaning of your sentence by repeating in square brackets the same verb you used: "to justify," did I?

Now, let me analyze the result:

1. What so evil is in "to justify our responsibility to make sure the Europeans are protected against Russia?"
Didn't we do the same in the WWII saving Europeans from Nazis and helping Soviets to defeat Hitler?

2. "an abuse of the Patriotism of idealistic men and women who serve with honor and patriotism to this country." - based on this logic (yes, I emphasize: you didn't explicitly say this,) Patriotism should only cover the time when our GIs are relaxing and exercising in Forts on our soil?
I always thought the Patriotism is something different.

That's why I would never call traitors "heroes" as many Americans do. The same Americans even allow them to work in the Senate and Hollywood...

Constantine:It appears that ts is having

a severe bout of "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder."

He still doesn't get that even IF we went to Georgia's aid, it would be to help DEFEND a growing democracy, not "nation building."

But here's another piece of what appears to be a huge and intricate puzzle, of which we are missing some very critical pieces.

Carpenter just posted a column about Comrade Obama sending his ME advisor, Daniel Kurzter to Syria….


“Barack Obama’s Middle East Policy Adviser recently discussed presidential politics with high-level Syrian officials during a conference underwritten Syrian business interests and a Canadian oil company.

“Adviser Daniel Kurtzer told the New York Sun the trip was not related to his campaign work, but that he did discuss the next president’s role in Syria’s relationship with Israel with Syria’s Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem”

First of all, NO private individual has the authority to meet with any foreign official… AND, unless Comrade Obama has some knowledge about HOW the dems are going to absolutely WIN the election, it’s pretty presumptuous.. Hmmm???

Now, jumping back to Putin… who btw, is NOT withdrawing his troops after all… and Comrade Obama’s mamby pamby response to Russia’s invasion of Georgia… until he realized that he’d best get on the bandwagon, publicly at least….

I fear there is a rat in the woodpile… perhaps several rats, domestically in the dem party, and of course, internationally.



Scout, thank you for
opening my eyes!

Thank to you, I now know that it's "Totally Anti-American Foreign Policy" to:

1. Make "Terrorists who once occupied Afghanistan occupy now cells at Guantanamo Bay."

2. Make "terrorist leaders who urged followers to sacrifice their lives to run for their own."

3. Make "America and Afghanistan allies against terror."

4. Make us "partners in rebuilding that country (Afghanistan)."

Previously, I thought that helping an ally who suffered from the same foe to rebuild his country is a Christian duty, but based on Scout, it's Anti-American.

Thank you for opening my eyes, Scout!

Young Americans
Who join the US Military do so from their own personal love of this Nation, trusting in the Leadership of the President to Honor the same reasons they will pay the last price any man can give to his country, his life.


Willing to die for the nation and people of this nation he loves.

When this love of country is abused to justify war over ensuring America is the "leader of the world" and our responsibility to make sure the Europeans are protected against Russia as now being promoted, is an abuse of the Patriotism of idealistic men and women who serve with honor and patriotism to this country.

Its called manipulation and is evil

partners in rebuilding that country.

Below I will quote the President of the United States of the reason we are in Afghnaistan.
Using his own words as he told us all PLAINLY.
We are in Afghanistan to rebuild that nation.





STATE OF THE UNION 2002

January 29, 2002

Mr. Speaker, Vice President Cheney, Members of Congress, distinguished guests, and fellow citizens:

As we gather tonight, our nation is at war, our economy is in recession,...

The American flag flies again over our embassy in Kabul. Terrorists who once occupied Afghanistan now occupy cells at Guantanamo Bay. And terrorist leaders who urged followers to sacrifice their lives are running for their own.

America and Afghanistan are now allies against terror... we will be partners in rebuilding that country... and this evening we welcome the distinguished interim leader of a liberated Afghanistan: Chairman Hamid Karzai.

====
ts:
This is why we are in Afghanistan, Nation Building.
Totally Anti-American Foreign Policy.

"we will be partners in rebuilding that country...GW Bush
January 29th 2002



Scout, did you thank the Lord today
for giving you finally an ability to say right things about Pelosaurs' stupidity of not drilling?

But you are so unfair saying "Why are America's children the cannon fodder for competition all over the world for businessmen and their profits?"

Firstly, America's children go VOLUNTARILY to the Army and thus, they are not "the cannon fodder:" fodder is a product of somebody else's decision.

Secondly, America's childern were and are fighting not for businessmen and their profits, they were and are fighitng for somebody's freedom.
Maybe, you just forgot this fact?

As for Europeans, you probably forgot about their weakness, right?
Besides Polish and Brits, almost entire Europe got into bed with Hitler until Russians started fighting.

The Pipeline supplys European
Nations, not America.
If anyone has a dog in this fight besides Georgia and Russia, it would be the Europeans.

Not me and my fellow citizens in America.

Why are America's children the cannon fodder for competition all over the world for businessmen and their profits?

We have more oil and gas than is found in Saudi Arabia, this is what our own government reports are saying about the shale oil in Colorado, Wyoming, North and South Dakota and other States.

While the rest of the world drills for oil and gas we cannot.
Drilling in America will destroy the planet, but drilling in the rest of the world will not harm anything.

That is the message right off the floor of our own United States Congress and the Speaker, Nancy Pelosi.

Everyone knows this is pure obfuscation and silly if not down right STUPID.
Yet it gets played out with continual arguments that go on and on and on, and energy and oil goes up and up and up.

Afghanistan also has a pipeline.
Iraq has oil
Any connection with Georgia one can think of?

Timeline tells the present circumstances in why we are in Afghanistan.
Or at the very least, a good guess.

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm



ts: WE GET IT! YOU DON'T THINK that

GEORGIA is our fight!

Got it! In fact, WE GOT IT the first 35 times you said it. BELIEVE ME, WE GOT IT!!!

And of course, you don't mind that others might possibly disagree with you at some point? Right???




Scout, ready for a discussion, not
a squabble?

Laus Deo! Thank God!

Let’s roll.

Please elaborate and prove:

1. “I am only concerned in the present "leadership" in our Government.”

2. “Our Foreign Policy has been HI-JACKED by wicked and evil men.
Taking this Nation AWAY from everything America had hoped and aspired to be.”

3. “The Vision for America was ESTABLISHED in Eternal Spiritual Truths.
Dedicated to higher principles of self government through moral faith in the laws of nature given to every man.”

4. “Truths that Great Men brought to the world with an extreme cost of pain and blood.
Now being spit on by wicked and evil men in our own Government.”

5. “NONE of in any of their speeches EVER CITE a single one of the Founders in todays Washington DC.” – This is simply not true.

6. “Unless its used for some self-serving promotion for a present THEFT AND ABUSE OF POWER.
Seen throughout the history of the world BY GOVERNMENTS.”

7. “This abuse of power nows runs America and I hate it with such a passion I would die for it.”

8. “… I accept the jeopardy with the courage of believing in whats right for America.” – Who gives you the right over others to proclaim what is right for America?

9. “Not for the evil men of PNAC and the CFR or the Criminal Federal reserve banking Corporation.”

10. “The evil men who run these operations are all the enemies of TRUTH and Justice.
They are the very cause of all problems in America today and the world.”

To me, all of the above sounds as a pompous jabber: no arguments, no supporting facts, just twaddle.

“Georgia is not America's fight.” – It’s very unChristian – avoiding helping a weaker friend/ally, you Eternal Spiritual Truths’ defender.

“Let the Europeans fight their own battles and let us mind our own business FOR ONCE, AGAIN.” - It’s very EGOISTIC, very unChristian – avoiding helping a weaker friend/ally, you Eternal Spiritual Truths’ defender.



The light on the hill
Has been turned into a wild fire of greedy men.

Everything concerning Domestic and Foreign Policy today is based in money.
Money taken from the citizens by a scam of gigantic proportions, unseen theft as its dressed up in some notion of 'caring'.

Global warming
Drilling for oil and gas
Energy is todays gold mine.
This Energy is being contested at every level of arguments and fights between nations and states, counties and cities.

If anyone would take the time to study the issues of Energy pre Iraq and Afghanistan you can see where the present circumstances got its beginning.

The fight going on in Georgia is over energy.
If there was no pipeline through Georgia, Georgia would not be center stage for competition of Armies.

Ask yourself how did a War on Terror get directed into Nation Building?

For anyone to say this is hate syndrome to ask such a simple question is a buyer or a seller of propaganda.

I voted for the President and am now called a liberal, a KGB agent, a moveon.org client simply because I say Georgia is not America's fight.

Pistol:Exactly right! And, I don't

recal anyone rooting for us to start doing battle with Russia NOW anyway!

But any intelligent person would, in fact, keep options open depending on what happens.......

And, IF circumstances became such, we need to remember that this would not be "nation building" but rather coming to the defence of a small, little, growing democracy that has already been violated by Russia.

Although I'm quite sure ts hasn't bothered to look, the fact is, Putin had been building (rail, etc.) to facilitate this invasion for quite some time...

AND, according to those who have ACTUALLY been there in the past week or so, it's clear that S. Ossetia was an EXCUSE for Putin to go into Georgia in order to punish Georgia for "their love of democracy and friendship with the West." (per Lt. Col. Ralph Peters (Ret.) and a Time Mag. reporter interviewed on Fox over the weekend.)

And the other point was, don't be surprised if Putin doesn't do the same thing with the Ukraine... or one of the other former USSR states in the future!



I have no more to say
About personal arguments, my position has been stated.

I am only concerned in the present "leadership" in our Government.
Our Foreign Policy has been HI-JACKED by wicked and evil men.
Taking this Nation AWAY from everything America had hoped and aspired to be.

The Vision for America was ESTABLISHED in Eternal Spiritual Truths.

Dedicated to higher principles of self government through moral faith in the laws of nature given to every man.

Truths that Great Men brought to the world with an extreme cost of pain and blood.
Now being spit on by wicked and evil men in our own Government.

NONE of in any of their speeches EVER CITE a single one of the Founders in todays Washington DC.
Unless its used for some self-serving promotion for a present THEFT AND ABUSE OF POWER.
Seen throughout the history of the world BY GOVERNMENTS.

This abuse of power nows runs America and I hate it with such a passion I would die for it.
And I know having the attitude of real Patriotism to the Ideas of Americas Founding places me at odds with the men in power today, can bring me troubles, I accept the jeopardy with the courage of believing in whats right for America.

Not for the evil men of PNAC and the CFR or the Criminal Federal reserve banking Corporation.

The evil men who run these operations are all the enemies of TRUTH and Justice.
They are the very cause of all problems in America today and the world.

Georgia is not America's fight.
Let the Europeans fight their own battles and let us mind our own business FOR ONCE, AGAIN.

To Chucky
I agree with you.

I'd be very happy to discuss issues instead.

But those drivellers, when they have no arguments, first offend people and then whine why they get backpunches.

And since they keep extorting an undeserved apology, I have to keep answering to reveal all their lies by citations. With dates and time stamps.

Very boring business...
But when you yield once, they get even more impudent.

Maybe, it's their tactics to shut forums down by making them annoying?

Strange
It seems that some of the same folks who castigate the decision to go into Iraq, are complaining we are not taking on the Russians in Georgia. Seems sort of inconsistent to me. Well, there is the consistency that if the Bush admisistration does it, its wrong.

This is NOT America's FIGHT
This fight is no more our business than if your neighbors got into a personal squabble.

This entire matter is strictly between Georgia and Russia.
If it goes past these two belligerants into any other nations affairs, it would be the Europeans.

NOT America.

This idea we are the world leader is the problem and is UNAMERICAN!

No where can anyone in America in a single Department of the United States Government find such an idea!

We have become the globalist BUSY BODY!
The NOSY NEIGHBOR.
The INSTIGATOR of continual bickering all over the globe.

This attitude is coming from some highly placed individuals OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT.
Unelected arrogant men, whose only value is the Dollar Bill.

And the right to rule over others.
Wicked and evil men, full of self love and every foul imagination that brings into their world becomes all of OURS too.

This Nation is not founded with the idea we are the seat of government for the WORLD.

Just with-in our own borders.
Which borders are left UNPROTECTED.
While the Neocons of PNAC stoke the flames of war against Russia worrying about the borders of Iraq, Afghanistan and now GEORGIA!

This policy is where the real problems stem from all over the planet.
Arrogant super rich men who do not give a flying flip how many of America's sons and daughter get slaughtered for their filthy love of dirty money.

Money is their god, and is the cause of all the evil going on in America and the world.

This principle is unchanging and eternal truth.

"LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"

Now I remember
why I come to the comments sections less and less these days.

I can find more substantive and cogent dialog in a kindergarten class.

Hello, baobab
thank you for asking me not to reply.

Otherwise I would be forced to remind everybody why I wrote you "To jerabaub with vomiting":

you managed to do the same as scout but even worse. That's simple.

Want citations of your posts and my responses with exact date and time?
Just ask...

Cool down, darling.

Constantine
Cut the crap.

I remember your posts.

The subject lines of your posts to me were something to the effect of "To jerabaub with vomit", or some such nonsense.

And while your posts utterly failed to make any cogent points, I do recall their subject line.

I suppose that is your most redeeming quality.

What you lack in ability to present arguments, you more than compensate for with silly attempts at personal insult.

You are entitled to your beliefs, but you are not entitled to hurl insults.

I would say they distract from your arguments, but the arguments themselves are so lame as to make that a virtual impossibility.

Please don't respond.

To scout, final #2
You wrote:
"I get personally attacked as if I worked for the KGB."

You wrote:
"...Her (wife's) father and brother both worked for the KGB at one time."

I wrote:
"Some Moscow-born Russian-speaking individuals are still in love with the Soviet Communism.

In particular those whose relatives worked for KGB.

I worked against KGB; my relatives fought against Bolsheviks and some of them were murdered by Bolsheviks.

It explains a lot in your and my attitude to the issue..."

Thus, you scout lie again. Not too tired?

To scout, final
You are complete scoundrel.

You started offeding me, and I responded.
You insists you did not offend me but I do insists you did. That's why I reposnded.

Everybody who knows my posts all over the political forums can confirm the same:
I NEVER offend anybody unless I am getting offended. Then I punch strongly.

Everybody can find it here who reads.
But you shameless scoundrel keep repeating the same lie and accuse me of lie. Jerk!


My only purpose
For using the Russian sources I used was to show HOW this is being REPORTED IN RUSSIA.

For that, I get personally attacked as if I worked for the KGB.

Judging my purpose 100 percent WRONG.

Ivanov is still in that attitude at me and I am not going to stand for it.
PERIOD.


When he decides to ask me my purpose instead of accusing me of being a KGB agent (by accusation of reporting false information) we can talk about the issues.

MY ONLY ISSUE IS THIS IS NOT AMERICA'S FIGHT!

Yes I am still angry and will stay angry with Ivanov until he apologized to ME for this.

========
QUOTE:
Constantine Ivanov writes: - 4:55 PM EST
Subject: To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?
====

ts:

My telling him to go fight the Russians was caused by his wanting this fight to be America's, and IS NOT!

To Akagi
Yes, Red Castle,
I know that gloomy sad fact:
"Everyone that lives there (Kuriles) today are Russian."

And again, this is exactly what and how Russians do to conquer territories.
They did the same with Ossetia and Abkhazia.
That's why I oppose it so much.

And you're right that we compromized ourselves.

Mr. Clinton, being busy with slaking Monica's thirst by sprinkling, has had chosen the worst option possible - to artificially convert Russia into our enemy by supporting rabid Albanian Muslim separatists in the Middle of Europe instead of supporting Christian Serbs of Kosovo who fought for their territory's integrity.


Tim
"Now,tell us your thinking and definition of those pesky Neoconservatives."

Well, today generally defined as a person who supports an expansive foreign policy to bring democracy--by force in some cases--to areas of the world now lacking in it--i.e. the Bush Doctrine with Iraq being a text book example. I think the Iraq war was stupid, poorly planned, its ideological underpinnings flawed.

So no, I don't support them. Anne and a host of others do. So just curious--again--was Tokyo Rose as associated with Anne, was that intentional due to the names?

Telling Ivanov
To come and say this to my face is not a threat, he still owes me an apology for his highly offensive cussing me out with the vulgar tongue he has directed at me personally.
I do not have to take this from any man, and my Christian Faith does not demand I bow down to vulgar attacks from any man or woman.

This is why i still spit in his lying face and demand an apology from him.


QUOTE:
Constantine Ivanov writes: - 4:55 PM EST
Subject: To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?

Telling him to come and say it to my face is not a threat, its the right thing to tell this keyboard tough guy.

And as far as Anne goes, she has consistantly come on some thread I am talking about to make personal attacks at me.

I am tired of her doing that.
Keep your disagreements as to the subject and stop with the personal slanders.

When the personal attacks are made, that is what causes the off subject arguments these two, Anne and Ivanov came and created.


To scout
Is there any chance you calm down, ever?

Why are you so shortsighted that you don't shy to lie and insist that it's me who lies?

You want me to cite you again?
Well...Here it is:

You wrote:
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 2:21 AM EST
"Go BACK to Russia and fight your own wars."

which I found EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE.

That's why I responded:
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 2:54 AM EST
"I am quite sure you are not only a cad...
Go...yourself."

Then you dared to say again "Go HOME to Russia you flake."

And you, with perseverance worthy of better use keep saying that you did not offend me:
"I never said anything of a personal nature to him other than to say this is not Americas fight."

You are an amazing person!
Please don't treat my words as if I say you are a charming one.

Northern Territories
"Why so-called World's progressive community is silent when a small nation cries for help to keep its territory's integrity broken by the Chauvinistic Bear?"

Well that is how the world works. I'd frankly doubt the world to do anything if China moved on Taiwan. It won't, but if it did there would probably be little but a few complaints. Many such as Australia see the Taiwan issue as an internal Chinese affair anyway thus claiming the rest of the world has no right to get involved in the dispute.

As for the Northern Territories (Japan, not Australia). Everyone that lives there today are Russian and few I doubt have any desire to become a prefecture of Japan or join Hokkaido.

Inanov made it personal
First off the pictures on this site have been removed.

On that he is correct.
But then says its because they were faked to begin with, as if he was there and knows that.
He does not know what caused these photos to be taken down.
The internet is not so secure or trustworthy as to know with a certainty he claims he has for why they are not there.
This is the attitude he has about the entire situation as if only he knows all the truth of what all happened there and sides with Georgia's attack on a civilian target.

I will address the personal matters between him and I last, as he lies once again.
I never said anything of a personal nature to him other than to say this is not Americas fight.
We have no business in it, and that was my only point in saying to him quit trying to stoke the flames of war between America and Russia.

And if he wants to fight the Russians, go do it himself and leave America out of this European squabble.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/29507379@N06/
This is what is now says:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29507379@N06/
Georgian's genocide stopped,but victims remained is no longer active on Flickr.


No one here knows why they are not now shown, including Ivanov

Anne
"who is convinced you know everything, when in fact, you cannot make an honest point or have someone disagree with you without calling them names, hurling insults, and making threats."

This could apply equally to you. All be the last point. I've never seen you make threats--but the rest--describes you exactly.

To Akagi
Red Castle,
historically, you are right.

The only problem, though, is that Georgia became VOLUNTARIILY a part of Russia 200 years ago.

But when Bolsheviks came to the power, Georgia did NOT want to be that part anymore, and Bolsheviks had used many different means - including military ones - to suppress the love of freedom of all Caucasus ethnic groups, including Georgians.

When the possibiliity of Freedom came with the collapse of the USSR, it became the national will to become an independent sovereign country.

Had still unlawfully occupied Kurile Islands expressed their wish to be returned to Japan, would you object?

Why so-called World's progressive community is silent when a small nation cries for help to keep its territory's integrity broken by the Chauvinistic Bear?

Because that "progressive community" is like a prostitute on a drug needle - OIL from Russia.

And we are not against prostitution, are we?

Carlos
"The U.S. Military has 'occupied' Okinawa for decades."

The US ended the occupation of Okinawa in 1972, Iwo Jima in 1968 (it has no real population) and Japan itself in 1952. The US has troops in Okinawa as part of the basing agreement with Japan--Japan could ask the US to leave at anytime and it is doubtful the US would not comply--it did in the Philippines in 1992 if you recall.

Most of the US troops in Japan are actually in Okinawa which are seen by the Japanese as not being "real" Japanese--i.e. a member of the Yamato ethnic group. The Okinawans have been basically abused by the Japanese ever since it was acquired by them in 1872.

Tim
Anne MO is basically to insult people with name calling she disagrees with as she can rarely engage in actual academic debate.

While there was not ever a real Tokyo Rose--just a name given to all the English-speaking broadcasters from wartime Japan by the American military the usual person attached to this name is the above mentioned Ikuko Toguri. She used for her name Ann, Orphan Anne and You're Favorite Enemy, Anne. Was the choice of picking Toguri in reference to Anne intentional since both use Anne as their name or just a fluke?

Anne is no Toguri either. She was far smarter than our Anne.

Apollo
"No and No? Not a may be, or a could be, or possibily? Just a no and no? Meaning that mainland China has no designs on Taiwan like Putin has on Georgia? Meaning that the Chicoms have given up the dream of uniting the two Chinas? Is that what you mean Ranger?"

China will not move against Taiwan before the next election nor at any time in the near future unless Taiwan declared formal independence and since Ma Ying-jeou won in March's presidential election and has been president since May and since the KMT/PFP (aka Pan-Blue) control 75% of the seats in the Li Fa Yuan there will be no move torward formal independence. As long as Taiwan maintains the fantasy of Taiwan being part of some China, China will not use force.

Taiwan and China once again are in talks on technical issues (ARATS-SEF)and since July direct flights.

China maintains its claims on Taiwan, but it will not enforce those claims by force as long as Taiwan doesn't do anything to foreclose on the possibility of unification in the future. China has shown it is willing to wait quite a long time--e.g. Hong Kong.

So Robert is correct in this. Now if Hsieh Ch'ang T'ing had been elected instead and the DPP/TSU had 75% of the seats in the Li Fa Yuan, then my answer would not be so absolute.


Ivanov
"Or betraying our friends is now our firmly established habit?"

The US has a long history of this. Why should Georgia be any different? Russians claim on Georgia go back before Lenin most of the last 200 years, Georgia has been part of some Russian state be that the Russian Empire or the USSR. The two provinces have been independent-de facto--since 1991. Georgia sent its army into South Ossetia--a region that doesn't want to be ruled by Georgia.

Tim
Ikuko Toguri? She went to Japan right before WWII to care for a sick relative, charged with treason after the war, she was pardoned by Ford. Much of the evidence against her was basically false which included people who lied under oath against her.

And what does this have to do with Anne?


Russia, by controlling

western Europe's oil supplies, has effectively turned all the western Europe democracies into Russian colonies.

No one in the world has the gonads to stope them. It is only a matter of time before Russian, China and Iran will make their move on the Arabian peninsula. At that point, the U.S.A. will either have to concede the Eurasian mega continent to the Russians and their allies or enter into a world war of the democracies against the totalitarians.

Tim
You can Anne all you want, but unless she violated the TH TOS in some way the moderator will not do anything against her.

Ranger (aka Robert aka many other names) has his post removed because he over and over again used racist language toward Michele Malkin. While no fan of hers, his comments were out of bounds. He was warned a number of times yet continued to do it and now he is banned. Nothing to do with Anne.

To Red Castle

Yes, dear Red Castle, Russians could be mad, shortsighted, merciless, but they are not stupid: they wouldn't start a war against NATO or the USA simply because they are not prepared yet to.
Don't ask me how I know - no place here to explain. But I can.

But they are perfectly using the weakness of the West (which we Americans also represent) to prove - very much successfully! - that we Americans are so much divided and so much weakened by Libs that the only thing we are now capable of is to load turd in our own pants.
And we did.

As for your "Are two pro-Russian provinces worth war with Russia?", I have to say this:

Firstly, those two pro-Russian provinces are on the territory of a sovereign country Georgia that is OUR ALLY.

Secondly, those two pro-Russian provinces were intentionally made such by Lenin's decree of 1921: thousands of Russian Bolsheviks were sent there over there to settle in order to drive a wedge between different Caucasus ethnic groups.

Thirdly, didn't your mother teach you to help a weaker?
In particular, if that weak person is your ally/friend?

Or betraying our friends is now our firmly established habit?

Oh akagi: Get a grip! A poster

hypothesized that and I agreed that perhaps Putin may have thought twice about INVADING Georgia had Georgia been a NATO member.

Looking to pick a fight, are you? A little early in the day for that, don't you think?





To PowerPro with gratitude
Thank you for your so much unexpected but so much needed words:
"Do people not grasp the concept that Russian media is tightly controlled? Have they no understanding of the term "government propaganda"?"

Interestingly enough, as a "proof" of some [hmmm...fill in the blank] point of view, a very active person openly pretending to have some relation to talent, has referred us here to 159 photos showing Georgians' "attrocities" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29507379@N06/.)

He didn't shy to disclose his knowledge source:
"My wife was once the Translator for the Russian Duma.
She holds a Masters Degree in Linguistics.
Her father and brother both worked for the KGB at one time.
...
Anything I fail to get in English, she fills me in."

As of yesterday, those 159 photos proved to be such a fake that even that site had to remove them!
Try by yourself, go to that site and see what happens - only a header left (which is also a sham).

And then, the same person seriously gives us a link to the "source of information" - http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29237 - the site established by Kremlin through an allegedly "autonomous" organization!

One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry...

To me, the photos were presenting the same scam as what Putin supplied Moscow inhabitants with after "a mysterious blast" of an apartment house that produced hundreds of dead Muscovites.

That blast served Putin as a pretext to start merciless military operations against Chechnya. Just like the arson of the Reichstag in 1933 served Nazis to get the power.

PowerPro, if you want to learn more about me, go to http://www.PoemsAndReflectionsConstantineIvanov.com

Regards,
Constantine


Anne
So If Georgia had been in NATO and NATO had a few tanks in the Georgian passes Russia wouldn't have rolled into Georgia?

And how do you know this. This is how world-wide wars get started. People assuming what the otherside will do. Such miscalculations lead to WWI--the Guns of August. A book by that title Kennedy said all US commanders should read as a text book example of what happens when you miscalculate. The US assumed that Japan would cave in to US demands over China too and sending part of the Pacific Fleet to Hawai'i and the total oil embargo would intimidate them into compliance--we know the Japanese response was quite different.

The US ground forces have been basically broken by two wars it can't seem to win and it can ill afford a war with a much better opponent than rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan. Are two pro-Russian provinces worth war with Russia?

For once Pat is right.

What have you done with talent scout?
Where is the real talent scout I used to read?

He used to be a humble defender of the Gospel and of Jesus Christ's interests on TH, but lately he has become defensive and antangonistic and much too political in his emphasis.

I fear that relying on TH forums for his expression and ministry is corrupting his witness.

Oh and Tom or Tim, whatever you name is.

Go ahead... have a blast.. But if you check back later this morning, you'll find NONE of Ranger29's posts....

Ranger29 "Robert's" posts are PULLED every morning.


James: You could have a point... ????
.

Time for a draft
With out a doubt, it is time for a draft. Our military is depleted and we need new bodies, to face the new challenges of the day. We cant possibly face all these global needs, without your kids and grandkids in service to the homeland.

Time to step up to the plate and sign them up for service. Who will be the first to bring their kids to the local recruiting station?

I think who ever steps up first should get some sort of a medal or sticker for their car, to show everyone how loyal they are, to the homeland.

Maybe even 1/2 a year without having to pay federal income tax, for their sacrifice.

ApolloSpeaks
Your post asserting we invade nations in order to liberate their peoples certainly flies in the face of your numerous posts in the past which claim Bush blundered when invading the wrong nation(Iraq), and in the process did Iran's bidding.

So much for your recently acquired concern regarding the liberation of the Iraqi people.

I never made a moral equivalency.

I merely stated facts.

We did have the Monroe doctrine where we excluded meddling by the European powers in the Americas.

It is what it is.

If we deemed unto ourselves the right to exclude European meddling in our hemisphere as demonstrated by the Monroe Doctrine, why are we outraged when Russia exhibits hostility over our meddling in the affairs of states bordering her?

To Constantine Ivanov...
Thank you for your insight into a scenario that must seem painfully all to familiar.

I'll parrot what someone else here said...I think you'd have a fantastic biography if you published it and I wish there was someway I could learn more about your life. Just from the broadstrokes you've shared here, it sounds fascinating.

And, to follow up with something you said...I too fail to follow the logic of reading Russian media sources. Do people not grasp the concept that Russian media is tightly controlled? Have they no understanding of the term "government propaganda"?

Oy Pat.
Yes, how dare the U.S. assist countries achieve freedom after how long behind the Iron Curtain.

We're so sorry that the KGB mentality is alive and well and we should have respected the poor feelings of the Russian Patriot who ordered ethnic cleansing in Gori. Such a true and measured response for our hero and friend.

Yes...that was sarcasm.

In all seriousness...I wonder which of the former Eastern Block is next on his list of wayward territories to be punished. Poland? The Ukraine?

My friends...the Bear has awakened from its slumber and once again seeks to become what it was. We must support our friends in Eastern Europe in any way we can.

Today, we are all Georgians.

To scout who likes history
but never learns it.

You wrote:
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 2:21 AM EST
"Go back to Russia and fight your own wars."

which I found EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE.

That's why I responded:
Date: Aug 19, 2008 - 2:54 AM EST
"I am quite sure you are not only a cad...
Go...yourself."

You misunderstood my modest expression "go...," and I explained it to you just as a courtesy.
-:)
Then you dared to say again "Go home to Russia you flake."

I remind you smartie: my HOME IS THE USA. Comprendes? Entiendes? Ferstehst? Ponimayesh? ?????? Wakatta ka? Rozumiesz? Rozumiš? Tu comprends?

Don't be surprised if somebody calls you "flake" or "idiot" - you started.

Don't offend and you won't be offended. That's simple.

To scout: you owe me $500
You wrote:
"I will give anyone 500 dollars who can find any threat I made at Ivanov."

Well...

You wrote:
"Come say it to my face instead of being an internet tough guy.
A Townhall thug.
You poor little man.
...
Then all you have courage to do is sit at home safely and be a keyboard tough guy.
Ha ha
I spit in your face you pansy aze."

You owe me $500.

You just confirmed again that a liar is YOU: you started cursing me. Now you are whining that I responded (much more softly, btw.)
Cheapy!

To scout
What a jerk you are!
Who first said "Go back to Russia and fight your own wars"?

You dared to say this to me an American!
And after this you whine that I called you "a cad"!
Such a jerk! Fie!

ApolloSpeaks
You state Russia started Cold War II by failing to realize the age of imperialism is over.

But imperialism is merely a reflection of man's covetous nature extended to foreign affairs.

Since it is an intrinsic part of man's nature, I doubt it is over.

It is not confined to Putin or Russia.

Insofar as Russia's interest in dominating or influencing its neighbors is concerned, we for a century and a half did not permit "hostile" regimes in our hemisphere, and specifically forbade the Europeans from meddling in the Americas(Monroe Doctrine)...but isn't Bush meddling in the affairs of Russia's neighbors thru bribing or otherwise inducing states to join NATO(a relic from the Cold War whose continued existence portends the resurrection of the very thing it was meant to eliminate).

We certainly don't want Russia setting up military installations in Venezuela.

And Russia may not be entirely without justification in its apprehension over our establishing military installations in states bordering her.

Ironic
that America, in murderously attacking Serbian civilians and constantly pricking Russia, has created animus with the only European nations who were/are properly aggressive and unconcerned with the opinion of the "international community" in taking the fight to Islam.

In the post 9-11 world we need steady defenders of white Christian culture much more than we need effeminate, effete, shame-woshipping Old Continenters. If Europe remains unwilling to purge itself of Islam, it will ultimately be the aforementioned to salvage what remains of the cradle of Western civilization.

America and The Seven Dwarfs (I say seven because I forget the number of our NATO yes men) is so yesterday. Let us apologize for Kosovo, accept Russia's apology for Georgia (though her crimes were far less outrageous than ours) and be friends. We ultimately need each other.

And our currency can't stretch much thinner to further the maniacal aspirations of Wilson's Republicans.

Both Anne and Ivanov are liars
They lied and said I made a threat to Ivanov,a lie.

I will give anyone 500 dollars who can find any threat I made at Ivanov.

I did get angry when Ivanov said this:

Constantine Ivanov writes: - 4:55 PM EST
Subject: To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?

====
I just replied to his insult and said I spit in your face Ivanov.


I still feel the same way until he apologizes to me.
And bog mouthed Anne for butting into another argument thats did not concern her to begin with.
This being about the 10th time she has come on a thread just to attack me with her threats.


Ivanov started this


Constantine Ivanov writes: - 9:26 PM EST
Subject: Farewell to rude uneducated scout
You wrote:
"Here is your problem Ivanov"

It's your problem, not mine.

My problem will start only if and when I lose a way to characterize a person without using dirty words.

You can't.
===
ts:
You started this and with words I found very offensive.
This post here below
====

Constantine Ivanov writes: - 4:55 PM EST
Subject: To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?
===


I had said nothing to you until you said this and I admit it made me see red.

I owe no apology to anyone but the readers of TH.
Not you or the big mouthed busy body snot nosed Anne.

You owe me an apology, so does big mouth Anne

Tim: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
.

Ossetia and Okinawa ?

The U.S. Military has 'occupied' Okinawa for decades.

'What if' the Okinawans decided they no longer wanted to be part of Japan and the U.S. Military backed them? What if we siezed control of her and told Japan we're not leaving, period?

And then the Japanese Fired on us... and in return... we bombed Hiroshima and seized more islands?

Would anyone think we were justified?

And if the answer is "No", why not?

Why were the Russians sitting there
waiting for a fight? It was like I'll meet you in Ossetia after school for a rumble. How far is Putin planning to go eventually? Will the United States nip it in the bud?

ts: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Shows exactly how intelligent you must be...

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Saakashvili will be in NY
Pursing other opportunities (he'll be an ambulance chaser) either that or end up like Mussolini.

ApolloSpeaks: You ask some frightening

questions..."Will China launch an invasion of Taiwan before the next president takes office? Will Iran soon get the bomb and intimidate the Persian Gulf into submission?"

I am fearful that all will happen, but who knows if it will be before the next president takes office.

Which is yet another HUGE reason why, among many others, that we cannot afford to have Comrade Obama in the White House...

Same people who financed the bolsheviks
Financed the present day Russia and re built it so it can now involve the entire world with a war in the coming days that will make WWII look like childs play.

This emnity now being stoked between Russia and America has been planned by the true evil men in the world.
And it will do no good to name them cause all it will do is bring mocking by the truly blind and ignorant public.


ts: You're just an arrogant old fool

who is convinced you know everything, when in fact, you cannot make an honest point or have someone disagree with you without calling them names, hurling insults, and making threats.

Say good night, ts, and most likey good bye to TH.

Cheers! :-)




Drop one on Putin's head
Marxism/socialism will always fail. It's like throwing an apple up in the air and believing really hard that it won't come down. But then it always does.
Once Putin's gang in this country and Russia finally realizes this(I don't place any hope in their somehow gaining wisdom) they will no longer be our enemies.
Putin has been up to no good ever since we declared that communism fell in Russia.
Mr. Buchanan I have a hard time seeing a future where Marxist/socialists and Christians get along in this country let alone getting along with evil dictatorships and military regimes. The world would be a better and safer place without communism/socialism. I think old farts like Putin with his obsolete and creepy ideas should just find a cave and disappear before someone drops a bomb on his head.

False premises
"If the Russia-Georgia war proves nothing else, it is the insanity of giving erratic hotheads in volatile nations the power to drag the United States into war."

We haven't been drawn into war here, so how did it prove that? What is the risk of admitting Georgia as a member of NATO? The purpose of NATO to protect its members from outside invasion, and not to support its members in invading non-NATO countries, so what's the risk?

And if Russia gets stupid and decides to invade all of Georgia, to stay, suffice it to say Cold War II has started. Even if NATO lets Georgia go to the Russians, Russia will find itself encircled by a very wary world.

Buchanon's comparing the US in Georgia to Russia in the Carribean is moronic. The Russians never had any friends but Cuba in the Carribean. The US has all of Russia's satiliite countries as allies or potential allies. Most of them don't like Russian domination. So, if war broke out in say, Georgia, and Georgia could maintain an insurgency, the US wouldn't need to worry about taking any bridges itself, or bridges too far. All the US would need to do is the same thing it did in Afghanistan, just supply insurgents with weapons, Stinger missles and so forth, and it's over for the Russian invasion force.

So if the Russians are considering invading countries that don't want them, the US won't sweat it. The Russians will sweat it.

Best they pack it up and go home.

Old story for me, moron
Constantine Ivanov writes: 9:32 PM EST
Subject: Congrats, scout,
you are capable of a right thought:

"Some day Americans are going to realize how many Marxists are right here in our own government.
Social Democrats is what they are now called."
====
If you would of had the decency to have asked me what I was meaning, you would not now be surprised about my "right thinking" according to you, ha.

Me being rude by calling you moron is 1/10th the rudeness you have shown to me you idiot.

ts: Very early on I urged you to take

a rest and back off ... you were getting out of control... And you've since gone right over the edge.

Your name calling and insults to Constantine are rude, untenable, and unconscionable. And it's obvious that you've let your arrogance and hubris get the best of you YET AGAIN!

As I said, we've seen you do this before on TH.

At the very least, you owe Constantine an apology for being he ignoramus you've been.


And just another little aside, there is still more information coming to light regarding what has really happened, and "who" was doing what...

http://johnibiii.wordpress.com/category/chechen/

"Russia Used Chechen Mercenaries in Ossetia, Georgia"

By Ralph Peters
The New York Post

"OVER the weekend, photographic proof emerged that the Russians used mur derous Chechen mercenaries to do their dirtiest dirty work in Georgia: The ragtag unit in question is so vicious that, last April, Chechnya’s Russian-installed “president” demanded it be disbanded.


"THE DOGS OF WAR: A ragtag group of mercenaries from this Vostok Battalion has made its ominous presence known in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

"War snaps taken by Russian photojournalist Arkady Babchenko have been circulating among intelligence personnel. The shots reveal far more to the West than Babchenko realized."



I suggest you read the rest of the article.... right after you apologize to Constantine...



Who (Else) Started Cold War II?
Not one mention of the silent hand of Israel was made in this article. Why should THEY get a pass for almost getting the U.S. into a war? And what of THEIR empirical aspirations? Why do they feel the need to irritate Russia by selling Georgia $300 million of troop training, upgrades to SU-25 aircraft, etc?

So who helped Russia?

Western Governments thats who.
Now look at who has set up the conflict in Georgia.

The following pretty much is what I see also.

quote:
Two years ago Anna Politkovskaya finished a book.
It was titled Putin’s Russia: Life in a failing democracy.

According to Politkovskaya’s introductory notes,
“This book is about Vladimir Putin – but not, as he is normally viewed in the West, as seen through rose-colored glasses.”
(it was GW Bush who looked into his eyes and seen a soul mate, NOT ME)

...in Russia are former Communist Party officials; that the fall of the Soviet empire was merely the “fall of the visible structures of the Soviet system” while secret structures remained in place.

Who in the West could absorb such revelations? “The return of the Soviet system with the consolidation of Putin’s power is obvious,” she wrote.

It fooled the capitalists, who invested in Russia. It fooled Western leaders, who no longer think of Russia as a threat. This great deception has thereby disarmed the West as it brought money and technology to Russia for rebuilding the country’s antiquated heavy and military industries. It does indeed appear that the “collapse of communism” was orchestrated and planned. ..

“Is the return to power of the secret police a coincidence?”

This is the fundamental question of our time because the KGB is the world’s most dangerous, most heavily armed criminal gang in the world.

Russia’s authoritarian rulers hate America and the system of economic liberty called “capitalism.”

..
. “We don’t want the West suspecting that we have a one-party system, that we lack pluralism and are relapsing into authoritarianism.”

A lone voice for the KGB’s latest victims, Anna Politkovskaya was assassinated for telling the truth.

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2 006/1020.html

Congrats, scout,
you are capable of a right thought:
"Some day Americans are going to realize how many Marxists are right here in our own government.
Social Democrats is what they are now called."

Farewell to rude uneducated scout
You wrote:
"Here is your problem Ivanov"

It's your problem, not mine.

My problem will start only if and when I lose a way to characterize a person without using dirty words.

You can't.


I have known the Cold War
Never ended
The tactics were changed is all.

Some day Americans are going to realize how many Marxists are right here in our own government.
Social Democrats is what they are now called.


They are the gentler mensheviks and trotskyites though, bolsheviks like Putin are just more honest in who they are is all.

To Mike
you wrote:
"Better to err by making an enemy of a thug, than allow him to resurrect the Soviet Union."

How true!

On the other hand, we would benefit a lot more if we find a way to make Russians our allies instead of enemies.

But in order to achieve such a tricky goal, we have to show them how we can together be the world dominating powers-colleagues, not the powers-rivals.

The only thing left to be understood is the fact that we are those powers indeed.

Constantine Ivanov...

Why do people believe the Cold War ended?

I don't remember anyone liberating Russia? Did someone take away Russian Nuclear Missiles or Bear Bombers? Did the people drag the murderer KGB through the streets with ropes around their necks? Did the T-90 factory close?

A few faces changed, yes. That's it.

The USSR fell apart 'Economically', not 'Mentally'.

The Cold War took a vacation, it didn't end.

Ivanov
You should write a book on your life experiences. It may shed some light on the Liberal view of Communist utopia.

To scout, continue

By the way, I am a lot elder than your wife: I do remember Stalin alive - I saw him several times. And I do remember the last German bombing of Moscow in April 1944; I do remember German POWs in Moscow working as slaves. I do remember the first column of German POWs lagging through Moscow under submachine gunners' convoy. I do remember myself squeezing through those gunners and extending my hand with a half of my daily ration of bread to one of those young hungry emaciated German soldier...I sucked in with my mom's milk the axiom: "to show mercy to a prostrate enemy."

Germans were foes.

Georgians are (were?) our allies.
Should I feel differently?

Russia: Knows how to deal with Muslims
Russia is the only power that knows how to deal with the muslims.

The US and Western Europe, emeshed in cultural pluralism, don't have the stomach for it.

Don't forget it. Case in point Turkey: in 1900 20% Christian, now 2% - the Muslims either run off the Christians or kill them.

In the US and West Eurpoe the enemy is within the gates.


Blame America First and Always
Putin is a patriot in the same sense that Don Vito Corleone is a patriot of New York City.

Putin believes the dissolution of the Soviet Union represents the largest tragedy of the twentieth century. Most people believe quite the opposite is true. America has made, and will continue to make diplomatic mistakes; that’s life. Every action (or inaction) in this complex world has consequences, both good and bad. Better to err by making an enemy of a thug, than allow him to resurrect the Soviet Union.

To scout
Some Moscow-born Russian-speaking individuals are still in love with the Soviet Communism.

In particular those whose relatives worked for KGB.

I worked against KGB; my relatives fought against Bolsheviks and somoe of them were murdered by Bolsheviks.

It explains a lot in your and my attitude to the issue...

If not to mention that an acquired experience and knowledge of Russians is not the same as the personal experience of people who hate Communism no less than Nazism.

Understanding Russian Sources
My wife was once the Translator for the Russian Duma.
She holds a Masters Degree in Linguistics.

Her father and brother both worked for the KGB at one time.
She was born in Moscow under Khrushchev and her parents lived there under Stalin.

Anything I fail to get in English, she fills me in.

An addendum to myself
"How foolish is to use Russian sources," I said.

And this is true.

But there still is a way to get reliable information.
Some trifles are needed, though:

One has to be able to read and understand Russian.

One has to have a life experience of living in Russia (better even in the both USSR and Russia) and native understanding (aka feeling) of Russians.

One has to have personal knowledge (on his/her own skin) what Communism is.

One has to keep up with the Russian-language press in the USA.

One has to be well educated in Russian history.

One has to know and understand the global chauvinistic inclinations of Russians in general and KGB/Bolsheviks-lovers in particular.

Lack thereof opens the door to superficial and mostly stupid and biased conclusions. As we already saw here.

I dared to offer my opinion here only because I possess all of the "trifles" above and much more.

In the field
Please people nobody on this thread is in the field over in Georgia. Neither is Pat Buchanan.
It sounds more like a rant from Pat than truth.

To ROBIN from Europe Belgium
You might want to study some history before you run down The United States. If it wasn't for the U.S. you would be a member of the National Socialist Workers Party.

To all illiterate and/or naive people
who believe they can use the RussiaToday.com as a reliable source of information.
It is not.

This is what they write about themselves:
"Russia Today is the first 24/7 English-language news channel to present the Russian point of view on events happening in Russia and around the globe. The channel was established in April 2005 by the Autonomous Nonprofit Organization TV-Novosti.
Its founder is Russia’s biggest news agency RIA-Novosti."

To naive people:

The so-called "Autonomous" TV-Novosti in no way means "politically independent unbiased" as some of you might fondly think:
all the media in Russia are controlled by Kremlin.

Who don't want to be controlled, simply die. Like Anna Politkovskaya, Alexandr Litvinenko, etc., etc., etc., etc.

How foolish is to use Russian sources!

If to rely on the Russian sources, Politkovskaya, Khlebnikov, Litvinenko, Moscow blasts - all this had nothing to do with KGB...

Blessed be he who believes, God's fool...

Force NATO into the Caucasus
And Russia responds in kind.

Nuclear-capable bombers in Cuba

Moscow sees NATO itself as a Cold War relic. The Russians complain that following the demise of the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Treaty Organization, the U.S. reneged on promises to create a new global security order and instead moved to expand its own Cold War military alliance — NATO — into Moscow's own sphere of influence.
Last month, General Norton Schwartz, nominated as chief of the U.S. Air Force, said at his confirmation hearing that the U.S. needed to send a warning to Moscow in the wake of Russian media reports claiming that Moscow was weighing the deployment of nuclear-capable bombers in Cuba in response to U.S. missile-defense installations in Poland and the Czech Republic.

The Russians should be told that moving bombers to Cuba "crosses a red line for the United States of America," he said.

Let's just say that the Russian military brass have long felt the same way about Ukraine and Georgia being militarily integrated into a rival alliance.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080722180457.q0jlf4 en&show_article=1

Burnt out, destroyed tanks in Tskhinvali
Belong to the Georgian Military, not the Russians.
Saakashvili cannot defend his military action on a sleeping city so he now says the devil ( I mean Russians) did it.
He really think people are going to believe this?
No doubt some will and say the Russians did it.
Simply because it was/is inexcusable.
Why wait to tell it so long if its true?




http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29237

August 19, 2008, 22:04
Rights group fails to prove Saakashvili claims
Aid workers from Human Rights Watch have cast doubt over Georgian claims that Russian forces destroyed the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. In interviews with Western broadcasters, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has consistently accused Russian troops of leveling the city.

The Georgian president is seen in many ways. And for one Youtube contributor it’s as a liar, or someone who is willing to do anything to get his country into NATO and the EU and keep the US at his side.

He is accused of saying anything to win the West’s support - even when he knows it’s not true. He has claimed that Russian forces ‘leveled’ Tskhinvali. And he says the well-respected independent organisation –Human Rights Watch – has the data to prove it.

However, Human Rights Watch itself has a different take on events. It says eyewitness accounts suggest Georgian fire wrecked the city.

To untalented scout
You scared me to death, I am shaking, I am trembling from fear...

Pish!
You are even cheaper than I thought.

To Anne in support
You wrote:
"BUT, what you need to get your head around is that S. Ossetia was an EXCUSE for Russia to invade and intimidate and/or attempt to take control of a country that was a growing democracy!"

I dare to remind your readers that South Ossetia is a part of the terrotiry of the sovereign country called Georgia.
Whatever Russian propaganda says, Russians living in South Ossetia do not constitute any legal base for invading Georgia's territory.

They are like Russian-speaking inhabitants of Brighton Beach, New York: a part of them are American citizens, another part still have Russian passports.
If that part of Russain-speaking people say they want the Russian goverment to rule in Brighton Beach, and we send there over there our police to cool them down, and Russians send tanks to "defend their citizens" - how would you feel?
It's exactly the situation in Georgia now.
That's why it's a shame that we did not support Georgians promptly.
Russian aggression started in 1917 and is being spread until today.

But we are buried under Pat's supporters. We are called "neocons" and "war-mongers."

The era of immorality when people even don't understand how immoral they are...

Aahh pb, it's potentially NOT just THIS

MESS....

With all due respect, it's pretty easy to tell those posters who are either ill informed, or uninformed, or are destined to repeat history.

No, Buchanan is no where near spot on! In fact, he's not even in the hemisphere...

You really NEED to read some of the posts above... including Constanine's.




The obvious:
Going to war with Russia -- hot or Cold -- over this mess would be stupid. Period.

Those who suggest we should go to war would be railing against the government with the first drop of American blood. Period.

Saakashvili is an incompetent bully, the one individual totally responsible for bringing this crisis on. Period.

Compared with how Clinton employed NATO against Serbia, Putin has 'made-nice' in Georgia. Period.

Western Europeans need to get off their fat, cowardly behinds and tend their own backyard. Period.

It is ignorant to mention Iraq & Georgia in the same breath. Period.

Buchanan is spot-on. Period.

To Joseph...
you wrote:
"Russia has not harmed us in any way. It has not even tried to harm us!"

Are you serious?
Thousands of spies; injection of Marxist professors into American universities; selling weaponry to our foes; helping Saddam by hiding his WMD; supporting Iran by building nuclear facilities and sending them military advisors and consultants; threatening and blackmailing our allies in Europe - all this is NO HARM to us?
Amazing thinking, 'Master'...

You endorse my view then
Sean writes: - 4:47 PM EST
Divided America
Talent Scout, I was pretty sure you were endorsing this view by quoting it.
====
ts:
Cause you quoted me quoting the Russians.
This is your logic anyway.
I am saying the Russians have their own National Interests and viewpoint.
And GW Bush is forcing this issue on them.
The Russians are not forcing theirs here in Canada or Mexico.
===
Sean writes:
As to your point about saying something that is not party line and getting grilled for it, sure these issues matter and people take them seriously. But you are not going to persuade anyone by ending each argument, with moron, or as you say MORON.
===
ts:
I apologize for getting a tad impatient and called you a moron.
You started it though by assuming I am one of the idiots from moveon.org.
Or a liberal/communist/scumsucking pig pinko socialist.
Just a mis-understanding kind sir




Carlos: You're spot on! But we also

seem to have some children who claim to be Conservative yet resort to calling people a "moron" who disagree.

Huh!


finally an American that tells the truth
I am from europe, (had to sign in as an american to write here :-( ).
I do not know this man Buchanan, but finally I find an American that tells the truth. Your media only tells lies, and only supports the american government, the united states is taking us to the brink of war, or maybe over the threshold.
The russians are not perfect, but here they are correct, maybe they did use too much power, but who are the americans to talk about accessive force.
The Russian government have done what the american government could not do, in 10 years time they have turned the government and policies completly around, give them credit, they have far to go, but they have already made tremendous progress, and now the americans are pocking them in the face and agrevating them. The european governments are TRYING to support the U.S., by the people of europe the trust has long been lost, and then the Americans wonder why they are hated in the world.
I am not sure, that this will blow over, here in europe we hope, but there are fears of war growing here through the stupidity of the U.S., if this ends without war, then maybe it is good that the united states is anexed, the world would be much safer.
Thank you United States
from Belgium, europe

To untaleneted scout
I told you that you are not only a cad...
My "Go...yourself" meant a pretty rude expression "Go f*** yourself."
Clear now? Or you need more explanation?

Why you think you can tell me "Go back to Russia and fight your own wars" and go unpunished, you [fill the blank]?

I am American, you [fill the blank], and I don't have to go anywhere only because you want me to.

I just don't belong to the kind of people who easily betray own friends and allies and who you seem to be willing to belong to.

Because of such kind of people, we are now in the country where traitors are called heroes and work in the Senate and Hollywood and nobody is shocked anymore...I am, though.

tim_cuchullaine
And how is it that we can interject ourselves in the KLA's attempt to tear away Kosovo from Serbia, where there are no U.S. citizens; yet critisize Russia for defending Russians from Georgian aggression.
===
ts:
Good question
Do not expect a reasonable answer other than to call you a "liberal" or from moveon.org though

Divided America
Talent Scout, I was pretty sure you were endorsing this view by quoting it. As to the Russian perception, that is really not the point, and should not drive U.S. policy. The thinking that somehow missile defense is provocative and should thus not be pursued by the U.S. is the equivalent of “don’t make the terrorist angry” and that is what I was responding too.

As to your point about saying something that is not party line and getting grilled for it, sure these issues matter and people take them seriously. But you are not going to persuade anyone by ending each argument, with moron, or as you say MORON.

Russisn Propaganda
Subject: 159 photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29507379@N06/

South Ossetia separatists, and so called Russian peace keepers were shelling Georgia day after day. They were killing and burning the houses of non Russians. The apartment houses and homes were shelled by Russian tanks, and bombed by Russian bombers on there way into South Ossetia.

Russia wants control of the oil and gas pipelines, and the deep water ports in Georgia.

Where would Pat draw the line, Alaska?

As Europe Muslimizes
and the U.S. Mexicanizes, Russia is positioning itself to fill much of the power vaccuum that will result--provided she can increase her birthrate.

But with fiercely nationalistic leadership, Moscow's mentality is correct. Many Americans don't understand that Russian people are comfortable with and even prefer an autocratic executive.

It's fine that Georgia wants democracy; the achievement of this end, however, is worth neither a dime of our treasure nor a drop of our blood. Let them negotiate their cause without involving our soldier and Marines.

And the constitutionality of confiscating the wealth of U.S. citizens for redistribution to foreign nations must be tucked away in a penumbra. Those who clamor for the U.S. to "defend freedom" overseas miss the irony that such adventures entail the further enslavement to government of Americans at home.

Russia respects itself and is a champion of human rights compared with Beijing. If only the Woodrow Wilson acolytes in Republican garb could be pursuaded to seek more productive uses of their time (and our money) than to alienate a world power who could make for a beneficial friend.

And how is it that we can interject ourselves in the KLA's attempt to tear away Kosovo from Serbia, where there are no U.S. citizens; yet critisize Russia for defending Russians from Georgian aggression?

Russians can read English
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Project_for_the_ New_American_Century


"The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) is a neo-conservative think tank with strong ties to the American Enterprise Institute. PNAC's web site says it was "established in the spring of 1997" as "a non-profit, educational organization whose goal is to promote American global leadership."


(just one of the bullets of goals)


"Need for a larger U.S. security perimeter" and the U.S. "should seek to establish a network of 'deployment bases' or 'forward operating bases' to increase the reach of current and future forces," citing the need to move beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia to increased permanent military presence in Southeast Asia and "other regions of East Asia." Necessary "to cope with the rise of China to great-power status."


For what again?
"American global leadership"

Maybe the Russians do not want to follow?
Could be why they are now using the words
"COLD WAR".



Folks who haven't seen the news
For you folks who haven't seen the news, didn't Angela and Nicholas both green light Georgia and Ukraine entry into NATO yesterday?
I guess that moron GWB got his way and that brilliant strategist and nationalist vlad seems to be getting his comeuppance. Eh?

The US and NATO may determine to defend freedom even over isolationist PJB's objections.

Boomer, Fl

ts:That was my point! It was an internal

conflict, yet Russia got involved!

Russia invaded a sovereign country!

BUT, what you need to get your head around is that S. Ossetia was an EXCUSE for Russia to invade and intimidate and/or attempt to take control of a country that was a growing democracy!

This is NOT difficult to undertand!!!!

I'm NOT saying that we need to go to war ... yet... or ever. But there is no reason why we, and other NATO countries should not be pro-active.

What song are you going to be singing when Putin decides to invade the Ukraine?


Pat, a little one-sided here
I am by no means an expert on Eastern European politics and history, and I admittedly have a blurry view of these things, so I'll keep my comments general.

I love Pat Buchanan's articles and often admire his ideology -- and I myself feel that USA has shed every last shred of isolationism to its own detriment.

Having said that, Pat may have overstepped the bounds of credibility, and overstated his position with these last couple of articles. Certainly he is swimming against the tide of his fellow conservative pundits.

To put it briefly, Putin strikes me as rather villainous. At best, he is a KGB holdover who longs for the "glory days" of the USSR. But Pat is going so far as to sympathize with him as a "Russian patriot" who had his feelings hurt by the USA's "military encirclement" and exclusionary policies.

Russia was a known instigator for many decades, and Putin's posturing is redolent of the Russia that erected the Berlin Wall.

I can understand Pat's point of view, though ... to a point.

Divided America
A person cannot even talk about a subject any longer in America that deviates from the party lines of the democrats or republicans without being seen as the enemy by one side or another.

=====

Sean writes: 3:48 PM EST
Subject: Someone say something about a Cold War?
“The US plans to deploy a radar in the Czech Republic and 10 interceptor missiles in northern Poland as part of a US-controlled missile shield for Europe and North America, has been officially sold under the ludicrous argument that it is against possible attacks from "rogue states," including Iran. Last Spring then Russian President Vladimir Putin exposed the shallowness of the US propaganda line by offering a startled President Bush that Russia would offer the US use of Russian leased radar facilities in Azerbaijan on the Iran border to far better monitor Iran missile launches.” (Talent Scout)
====
ts:
No MORON
That is what the Russians said and is how they PERCIEVE IT.

You not know what a LINK is?



Also the “shallowness of the US propaganda line…”

You stay classy Talent Scout but go home to MoveOn.Org

==
ts:
I am a Tom Tancredo Duncan Hunter supporter you MORON

Say what...?
Pat is living in 1890. This is a global economy. After the fall of the USSR, the "stans" oil was free game. I can see why Russia would be irritated (embarrassed, more likely) that US companies could so readily come in build infrastructure, drill for oil, build pipelines, when USSR couldn't do it in the 50+ years in which it controlled them. Russia needs the west’s money as much as the EU needs the energy. “Boxing in” Russia is exactly what we should be doing.

Clearly, Russia cannot belong to the G7 or WTO. Georgia, Ukraine, Poland and all the other former Eastern Block countries should be fast tracked into NATO. I have no problem if we chose to lighten our load in Iraq & Afghanistan (& backfill with some NATO/UN troops) in order to beat back the Ruskies.

The number one item on the free world's (i.e., the US & EU) calendar must be energy independence from the likes of Russia, Venezuela, and the Middle East. We have plenty of our own oil to act as bridge until “the new energy” is invented, but we lack the political will to go get it. Our oil could act as a bridge while we build 100+ nuclear plants, a few hundred dams, tidal power plants and wind energy.

Until we achieve real energy independence, we live in a global economy, where what countries like Russia do is our business.


Three little words, use of force
Can sure cause problems sometimes as it has in finding a resolution with Russia over the Georgian conflict.


First some facts

1.Ossetia’s status

For 70 years South Ossetia, though bordered on three sides by Georgia, held the status of an Autonomous Oblast (Region) within the Soviet Federation

2.Ossetians have a distinct Persian-related language and culture. Schools, publishing houses and theaters helped preserve Ossetian nationality within the Soviet Union.

3.Georgia suddenly abolished South Ossetia’s autonomous status and rights and annexed the small nation, as they did with Abkhazia, another small, autonomous nation strategically located on the Black Sea and surrounded by Georgia. In the resulting struggle, South Ossetia and Abkhazia each declared their independence from Georgia in 1991.

4.17-year standoff, with both Georgian and Russian peacekeepers stationed in South Ossetia.

5.Within the United Nations Security Council, U.S. and British representatives blocked a Russian-drafted resolution calling on Georgia and South Ossetia to immediately put down their weapons.

6.The U.S. rejected the three-sentence statement that would have required both sides “to renounce the use of force.”

7.It was a clear confirmation of U.S. support for Georgia’s continued use of force against the small Ossetian nationality

By the way Carlos, I am one of the "liberals" who voted for GW Bush.

You morons

Someone say something about a Cold War?
“The US plans to deploy a radar in the Czech Republic and 10 interceptor missiles in northern Poland as part of a US-controlled missile shield for Europe and North America, has been officially sold under the ludicrous argument that it is against possible attacks from "rogue states," including Iran. Last Spring then Russian President Vladimir Putin exposed the shallowness of the US propaganda line by offering a startled President Bush that Russia would offer the US use of Russian leased radar facilities in Azerbaijan on the Iran border to far better monitor Iran missile launches.” (Talent Scout)

How is missile defense a provocation? Also are 10 interceptors really going to stop anything but a rouge state attack? Wouldn’t Putin bring a little more to the party than 10 inbound missiles when attacking Europe?

Also the “shallowness of the US propaganda line…”

You stay classy Talent Scout but go home to MoveOn.Org


How is missle deff

Anne... It is Sad

The Liberals just don't get it...

To them, it is Bush, Bush, Bush...

These spoiled children cheered for every car-bomb in Israel... The Liberals were smiling every time a truck full of America's bravest lost limb and life in Iraq. Couldn't wait to get in front of a Capital Hill Microphone after each slaughter.

Now they are 'excited' about the prospects of Russia killing the leader of Georgia, and taking scores of civilians with him.

Reading these posts, and the forgetfulness of Patrick, leads to one conclusion... Liberals are patrons of Brutality and the enemies of Freedom.

It all boils down to Empathy... We are all Georgians and the Left are little Putin's.


Gross misunderstanding of Putin's Russia
Your words about Putin are absolutely rediculous. Yes, he is a nationalist. But he is a savage war criminal absolutely without mercy. McCain saw that when Bush didn't. He has ordered the brutal murder of many journalists and the attempted murder of the current president of Ukraine. He also would prefer the death of Saakashvili and the installment of a pro-Russia government in Georgia.

These countries around Russia know, better than you ever will, what it is like to be enslaved, to be killed, to be brutalized and dominated by a larger power. They only wish to be free, and you would deny them our assistance in that goal.

Rather than congratulate Europe for its actions at Bucharest, Americans should condemn it for its betrayal of Georgia and its appeasement of Russia.

If Georgia had been accepted into the Membership Action Plan, we wouldn't have been fighting Russia because of Article 5; the war would never have started. Russia is brutal, but not stupid.

You seem to think that we can survive in this world with isolationist policies. You are wrong; if we do not lead, someone else will. For some reason, I don't think I want that someone to be Putin.

A clear view of the conflict dictates that Europe deserves not praise, but anger. They hung Georgia out to dry to appease the Russians and many have died as a result.

To put it mildy, you grossly misunderstand Russia and Putin. I am glad that the Republican candidate does not.

"Jumped the shark"
I am commenting without reading the article, because Pat Buchanan ceased to be a voice of insight and reason many months ago. I no longer consider his opinions and prognostications to have value, and in general I no longer waste my time on them.

I made an exception in this case - not to peruse or consider, but to condemn and castigate what appears from the title to be just another pathetic attempt to seek attention.

I would not presume to censor the man, no matter how ill-conceived and outrageous his scratching happen to be, because that is not my place. But I certainly have an equal right to present my opinion, which is that he ought to retire while some people still credit him with good sense.