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Friday, July 11, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
No More Blank Checks for War
by Pat Buchanan
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After the assassination of the archduke in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914, Austria got from Kaiser Wilhelm a "blank cheque" to punish Serbia. Germany would follow whatever course its ally chose to take. Austria chose war on Serbia. And World War I resulted.

On March 31, 1939, Britain gave a blank check to Poland in its dispute with Germany over Danzig, a town of 350,000 Germans. Should war come, Britain would fight on Poland's side.

Poland refused to negotiate, Adolf Hitler attacked, and Britain declared war. After six years, the British Empire collapsed. Germany was burnt to ashes. Poland entered the slave quarters of Joseph Stalin's empire.

Lesson: No great power should ever give to a small ally or client state a blank check to drag it into war.

This raises the question: Has President Bush given Israel a blank check?

A year ago, Israel attacked and smashed an alleged nuclear reactor site in Syria. In April, Israel held a five-day civil defense drill. In June, Israel sent 100 F-15s and F-16s, with refueling tankers, toward Greece in a simulated attack. The planes flew 1,450 kilometers, the distance to Iran's uranium enrichment facility at Natanz.

On June 6, Deputy Prime Minister Shaul Mofaz threatened, "If Iran continues its nuclear weapons program we will attack it."

Ehud Olmert returned from a June meeting with Bush to tell Israelis, "George Bush understands the severity of the Iranian threat and the need to vanquish it, and intends to act on the matter before the end of his term."

Is Israel bluffing, or in dead earnest?

For while Israel can do damage to Iran, she cannot defeat Iran without using nuclear weapons. But any attack Israel launched against Iran would require U.S. complicity, and any Israeli war with Iran would almost certainly require the United States to do most of the fighting to win or end it.

Thus, if George Bush does not want war with Iran, with two U.S. wars already, he must inform the Israelis in unequivocal terms that the United States opposes any Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran, and will not assist but denounce any such attack.

If Bush believes war with Iran is vital to U.S. security, he should make that case to Congress. To allow Israel to start a war we do not want would be an abdication of his duty as president.

Clearly, among the reasons Israel conducted its dress rehearsal for war was to maximize pressure on Iran to halt enriching uranium. Bush may well have welcomed the added pressure.

But as the Iranians have insisted, they are entitled, under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty they signed and Israel did not, to enrich uranium for fuel in power plants. Tehran has declared it will not be the only nation to surrender its legal rights under the NPT. And in response to the Israeli military exercises, Tehran conducted its own missile-firing exercises this week.

If neither side yields, confrontation is inevitable. Perhaps soon.

For we are only four months from the election, and Israel is pawing the ground to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

Is this Bush's back door to war with Iran?

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Adm. Mike Mullen, in Israel a week ago, returned to say a "third front" in the Middle East, with Iran, would be "extremely stressful" to U.S. forces.

He is saying that U.S. ground forces probably cannot now cope with another war, with a nation three times as large as Iraq.

Asked about Israel taking unilateral action, Mullen replied, "This is a very unstable part of the world, and I don't need it to be more unstable." But Mullen is not the president. What did Bush tell Olmert? Does Israel have a green light, a yellow light or a red light?

Should Israel attack Iran and Bush deny complicity, he would no more be believed than were Britain and France in 1956. Then, the Israelis stormed into Sinai, and Britain and France said they were intervening to separate the warring nations and secure the Suez Canal. Outraged, Ike ordered the British, French and Israelis alike to get out of Suez and Sinai. They did.

President Bush must step up to the plate.

If he believes sanctions are not succeeding and Iran's nuclear program must be halted, he should go to Congress for authority to neutralize the facilities. If he has not so concluded, he should tell Israel it is not to start a war that U.S. airmen, sailors, soldiers and Marines will have to finish.

America needs to restore that absolute freedom of action in matters of war and peace she once had, before entering the skein of entangling alliances that now encumber the republic.

No ally, no client state, should ever be allowed to drag America into a war she has not chosen, constitutionally, to fight.

No more blank checks for any nation.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Pat the Pathetic
Maybe he can get a job with Jimmy Carter. They both hate Israel and Bush. Poor, pitiful Pat the Pathetic.

There are many things about Bush that I do not like; but, the assumption that he would be leading us into war in the waning months of his presidency is just too great a leap of the imagination.

Rated five stars.
I believe the virago Schlussel (look it up, Gary) about as much as I do the Mossad's "intelligence" about Iran. What a lying moron.
===
Pat's right. Great powers don't allow little ones to drag them into the messes of their own making. Not only should Olmert and Netanyahu be told in no uncertain terms to knock the b.s. off, but AIPAC should be made to register as a foreign agent of Israel at the the least and at the best, shut down.

Courageous Stand
Buchanan has spent more years in his adult life fighting for the conservative cause than many of us have been alive. I have read a few of his books and to say that he understands history and how it applies to modern geopolitics is an understatement. His statement: "No ally, no client state, should ever be allowed to drag America into a war she has not chosen, constitutionally, to fight." should be universally accepted by conservatives, but there is a very powerful campaign to deceive the Right into supporting wars against the country' interests. He may be a lonely voice for common sense, but as far as I can tell, he's right.

Ya Gotta Admit...
Agree or disagree, Pat Buchanan speaks for himself and his beliefs. I've been enjoying this website for around 9 mo. or so... and this guy pulls no punches to curry favor, does he? There's quite a bit of dignity in that, regardless of ones ideology. I've gained a great deal of respect for him since I've been visiting TH. Hey Summers... I hope the conclusion you reached in you 2nd paragraph scenario is correct as well... but I wouldn't be shocked at ANYTHING this administration tried to pull off. Not necessarily Bush (he seems bored and ready to go on permanent vacation to me) ... but Shooter Cheney is one scary dude. Heavy buzz indicates Cheney is pushing hard for an attack, and he has reportedly gotten his way before, hasn't he? I wouldn't be surprised at all if Shooter becomes the next POTUS. Keep in mind National Security Presidential Directive 51, added to the National Emergency Act in 2007. This under-publicized directive gives the Executive branch the authority, in a VERY vaguely defined "catastrophic emergency," to , among other things, suspend the Constitution, launch nukes, and... CANCEL ELECTIONS. NSPD-51 is a very scary piece of legislation. Beware, mericn's. Your nation will be better off with either McCain or Obama as POTUS than these loons who are charge now.

Being Pro-Israel is Pro-American
The enemies of Israel hate us every bit as much as they hate Israel.

And you better believe it is in our interest to defend Israel.

If you don't believe me , look up the phrase "First comes Saturday then comes Sunday"

If Israel attacks Iran
with or without a "blank check" I suspect Iran will attack the US Navy or Coast Guard in the gulf, pulling us in regardless of the "check".

For jayhawk:
NSPD-51 is not legislation, and it is not "very scary", except maybe for those who are involved in the aforementioned "heavy buzz".

Agree with both Summers and Jagrmeister
On the one hand, with Jagr, I agree that Pat has a vast and deep comprehension of US and world history. On the other, I agree with Summers, Pat has a huge hole in his analysis when it comes to Israel, and I don't know what happened to him in early life to harbor this animus. Gary goes too far with the "child molester" comment. Of course, the US shouldn't give Israel a blank check, but nor should we abandon them to the wolves as Pat seems to infer. Pat is reputedly a devout Catholic; he must forget the part of the catechism, the Bible, that Jesus, Mary et alia were Jews.

Nice article by Buchanan
For the most part, I agree with with Jayhawk, Jagrmeister, Buck and Ryan.

The modern state of Israel was brought into existence in large measure as a result of the genocide committed against European Jews.

The Jews declared "Never Again!", that they must have their own nation, and not depend upon others to save them from destruction.

Yet now some folks are all too eager to make Israel dependent upon others...namely us.

The U.N. created the state of Israel in the heart of an area held sacred by both Jews and Muslims, and with historical roots to both.

Muslim resentment and hatred of the Jews ebbed and flowed in verocity for centuries. It ranged from relative calm and almost acceptance for some of that history between Jews and Muslims, to murder, pograms and harsh discrimination for other parts of that history.

Creation of modern Israel is seen by most Muslims as a totally unwarranted and unjustified powergrap of their territory, including parts that have religious significance.

Of course, Jews also have a legitimate claim that historically Judah(presentday Israel and Palestinian territory), had been settled by Jews from days of antiquity.

And U.S. policy by most administrations has been to support Israel even when such support alienates and enrages a large part of the world containing resources so vital to our economy, standard of living and perhaps even our existence.

Buchanan is right about Bush. If Iran is the problem he portrays it to be, Bush must go to congress and lay out his argument for military action...which Congress should decide if warranted, or not warranted.

Tribalism Threatens WWIII
Pat understands that Israel is the stone in the Arabs' throat that they will not swallow. But the United Nations approved the founding of the Israeli state in 1948 and President Truman, under great pressure, recognized Israel.

It will take great diplomacy and the wise use, or promise, of force to prevent a war between Iran and Israel and I don't see either McCain or Obama possessing those skills.

Obviously Buchanan is no friend of Israel and I think if he really spoke frankly he would assert that its founding was one of the worst decisions ever made by the U.N. But our leaders have to deal with the world as it is and not how we would like it to be. Unfortunately, we are in a period of history where third or fourth string "leaders" have taken the stage and, thus, the world again is about to enter the zone of maximum danger.

More Ill Considered Stuff from Buchanan
This is not a nice article by Patrick Buchanan. Israel is a working democracy that is an ally of the United States. Iran has a radical Islamic theocratic government whose leadership has been calling for the destruciton of Israel. Buchanan's concern that we warn the Israelis against being warmongers is quite ill focused.

In recent years, Buchanan has been spouting false, revisionist history in order to support his isolationism and his dislike of Israel.

Buchanan is no conservative. His isolationism today in the face of Islamofacsism would be as disastrous as such isolationism would have been disastrous in the face of Hitler.

Jerseyvet
Have a cigar.

Nice post(6:42).

Buchanan has it right again
Very well written and very true. Attacking Iran is NOT in our interests.
As far as Mary and Jesus being Jews, better read John 8 where Christ was explaining what the Jews needed to do to become God's chosen again.

The Lessons of Viet Nam
One thing we learned coming out of Viet Nam was how devastating politics is when used as an excuse for war. McDonalds and AT & T and General Motors could have won over the Vietnamese in less time than it took us to lose the conflict and 50,000 troops. It seems we are trapped in a surreal repeat of Nam. We went into Iraq without an exit strategy [not a plan the military would have approved]. We discharged the civil servants who could have kept the country running. And, now, we will probably leave like we did in Nam. don't think so? Iraq is already saying get out. We will not be able to justify staying against the will of a sovereign nation.

Jerabaub...
Regarding (Jerusalem/res of Israel) being an "area held sacred by both Jews and Muslims, with historical roots to both." isn't this what we call the doctrine of moral equivalence? I.e., both US and Soviet Union had nuclear weapons, so both are equally bad--nyet! The Jews have been in Jerusalem since, pick your date; let's say 1000 BCE under King David. Islam wasn't even invented until the 7th century CE. The Jews were there first; they should administer it in trust for both the Muslims and the Christians, who were 630 years before the Muslims, and thus have a much better claim, but you don't hear Christian countries threatening to wipe Israel off the map because it owns our sacred city. Plus, Jerusalem is nowhere near as 'sacred' to Islam as Mecca and Medina. Can Jews and Christians have equal access to those cities?? Not!

Some of these posts make me sick
In the first place, the Islamists insist that the entire Middle East is sacred. And once they get control of all of the Middle East, it will be the entire planet earth that is sacred and belongs to Allah. It matters not that Muslims control more ground on the face of this planet than any other people. They can't allow one tiny strip of land, smaller than the state of New Jersey, to be a homeland for the Jews. Talk about your unmitigated greed!!

As for Israel depending on the U.S. to save them, it looks to me like they are doing a pretty good job of defending themselves, as evidenced by what Buchanan himself outlines. In fact, the U.S. has done more to HINDER Israel from defending itself than it has HELPED in Israel's defense.

So what are the Jews suppose to do? Just wander around the world without a homeland and hope that no more Hitlers arise to power?

You people should all be ashamed of yourselves. I have always defended Patrick Buchanan when others derided him. Never again.

Iran did attack America
When the Iranians took over the American Embassy and held our diplomats hostage that was an attack on America. An embassy is considered soverign territory which is why diplomats have immunity. When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor the US didn't arrest and hold the Japanese diplomats the US expelled them. Taking the embassy in 1979 was an ACT OF WAR! Like it or not the US is the last superpower on the planet and with that title goes the responsibility to try and keep the peace. The Romans did it when they were powerfull then the British did it. Power hates a vacuum and if the US does not fill that vacuum someone will. Would you rather it be the Russians, Chinese, or radical muslims? If B. Hussein Obama thinks his mere presence is going to get Iran to accept Israel's or the West's right to exist is peace he is wrong. Those savages are not going to roll their eyes and faint. As of tough negotiantions if diplomacy isn't backed up with the use of force it is worthless. The world should have learned that lesson when the Japanese and Germans tried to take over the world in 1939.

Once again
Buchanan spews his hatred of Israel.

joseph
I did not the people who later became Muslims existed in Judah or other provinces that were the homeland of the Jews9maybe they did, but I don't know that), but only that both peoples claim some historical and religious roots to the contested area.

If being among the original inhabitants of a contested land gives one legitimacy and rule over that land, then perhaps the American Indians ought to rule our Beloved Republic, or at least be granted autonomy over huge swathes or our heartland.

Your point about the lack of tolerance exhibited by Muslims is valid.

What Must Be Done
My advice to the Israeli's is this. Call up the American president and say, "You have two days to make Iran give up its nukes. After that, we solve the problem". And if this warning is not heeded, launch a devastating attack on Iran and force the world to deal with the problem.

Israel has to understand how feckless and fickle America is to its allies and it has to know that we can't be trusted when the chips are down. Sure, world leaders go to the summits and wave and smile to the cameras, but all know that as the saying goes, while it might be dangerous to be an enemy of America, it's fatal to be an ally. With all our military power and superb military, America is easily defeated as first its leaders, and then its people lose their nerve and their will.

Thus, America has to be dragged into doing what's needed. This is what happened in both world wars and it will have to be what Israel does now.

Otherwise, all it is citizens will eventually be bulldozed into mass graves.

Israel: The 51st State
As someone said: Israel can defend itself - it should be able to, we give them billions of dollars of the finest military equipment in the world. So, they end up spying on us & using our weapons against civilains ( they're very good at bombing civilians). We keep giving them more weapons, anyway - they are endangered, after all. They have the nuclear monopoly in the mideast, and since they are a racist state ( not a democracy - only for Jews), no arab state can really threaten them.
American politicians need the money & votes of Jewish Americans so we are putting up with this run-up to war ( with no proof, just like Iraq, remember?) WMDs? Trust us.

They won the first battle
They are killing us and they don't have to fire a shot. We are so dependent on their oil that they are controlling our economy. Wake up. We need a energy program for now and a plan for the next 10 years that will make the entire middle east a non factor. We need the strong leadership that once made us the greatest economic power in the world.

m sederoff
You may find this strange, but I actually agree with alot of what you say.

I think you are a bit harsh on Buchanan.

I did not detect any anti-semitism in his piece.

On your assertion Muslims think the entire Middle East is theirs, and that eventually Allah must reign supreme over the entire globe, I do not disagree.

But the logical extension of your argument is for a world war against Islam.

I still think targeting their youth thru internet and satellite television with western ideas can undermine the inherent extremism that exists within Islam.

Is there enough time for that to work?

But if you are right, why not immediately bomb Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, IRAQ, Pakistan, etc?

Why wait.

Wipe them all out.

But that runs counter to our mideast policy, and to Bush, who continues to declare Islam to be a great and peaceful religion.

By the way, agree with you that the U.S. hinders Israel, rather than helping her.

Bush's insistence Israel allow elections in Gaza, despite Israeli worries as to the outcome, is a case in point.

Residents of Gaza had their election. And Hamas was the winner.

Bush was ignorant of what would happen in the mideast!

What a shocker that is!


The Muslims must understand...
If they continue their madness we "will" take out Mecca and Medina. Based on their own Quran if that happens Islam is a false religion...problem solved.

Jerabaub

Being a conservative, and generally though not blindly proud of the USA, I hate to admit it, but what the Anglo colonists did to the native americans was a horrible disgrace, and maybe they should have more land than those dinky reservations. of course some of them are prospering mightily with the casinos...

And may it not come true, but I could see, hopefully not in my lifetime, the jihadists largely succeeding in pushing Israel into the Mediterranean, so I would not doubt it if the USA were to grant the remaining Jews some chunk of land, where out West? Alaska?

Self Fulfilling
Our agreement to defend Israel can be found in the BIBLE. Unfortunately, our Nation has insisted on helping God, we apparently do not trust God's own plan for this planet. We must help and use God as our excuse. The US was the driving force in the creation of Israel, we violated the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty by providing know how and maybe even nuclear weapons to Israel, and we protect Israel (God's Chosen) by providing them weapons and munitions. As Christians we believe we are right in our support of Israel but maybe , just maybe, God's timing for these events has never been synchronized with our actions. We may be wrong.

So now Pat Buchanan is antisemitic....
because he doesn't support the idea that America should be entering into unilateral alliences. Particularly with the nation of [Isreal] who btw recieves seven billion in foriegn-aid from the US. The largest amount recieved by any nation.

I don't recall the same criticism when of Mr. Buchanan when he was down in Tucson railing against Mexicans, or when he goes off on a [racist] rant against black's.

Why the change?


Pat; Do you read our answers?
Patrick J. Buchanan I like what you put to paper however I want to toss this off of you provided you ever read this stuff people write. It looks like the ME has gone downhill after the Shah left Tehran back in 1979. Pat; let’s talk truth; the Carter Administration backed the Shah is this not correct? When the Shah got sick and was in fact dying the next in line was the Shah’s Son, is this not correct? The Carter Administration in fact wanted nothing to do with the Shah’s Son and would not back his play, is this not correct? Also; was it not also a fact that the Carter Administration was warned about the American Embassy and made the decision to send the civilians home and have the Gov. workers stay?
The Question Pat is this; do you think now that it was a mistake not to back the Shah’s Son back in 1979 when we had the chance to and maybe have avoided this entire ME problem? Is it now evident that in the ME American Gov. has always backed the wrong leader’s and made matters worse in doing so? This rash of bad decision’s has cost the people of America a huge amount of money what to this point has accomplished nothing. This will be the equal to England’s WW I and WW II economic downfall in the end….

So who wants war Patrick?
Pat writes:
"Thus, if George Bush does not want war with Iran,...."


What do the Iranians want?

ISRAEL ATTACK ON IRAN
If your geo-political opinions on the middleeast did not have anit-semitism as its background, that would be the only thing that you would have going in your favor. But, Puchanan, that is not the case. Yours is a case, as i have told you many times before, of severe infectious anti-semitism. You've proved it over and over. So you are not to be taken seriously. An open invitation still exists for you to speak before Jewish groups, who would love to listen to you. And by the way, how do you like the reviews on your latest book. This piece of trash has been panned in at least 4 critics that i have seen. Not exactly a best seller.


Fbrosius gets it
There would be no religious fanatics running Iran today without the aide of Jimmy Carter.

The Palestinians have been booted out of Jordan.
Booted out of Lebanon
Booted our of Egypt
Booted out of Kuwait
And used by the world at large to undermine and fight Israel.

The people who actually want war are the muslims.

Nothing in their speech that concerns Israel if for Peace.

The only way the muslims see how to have peace is when Israel is destroyed.

I think Patrick misses where the source of the problems of the mid-east originate from.

The obstinate hate of islam for the Jews.

Refresher Course…
Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi and his wife, Empress Farah, left Tehran and flew to Aswan in Egypt.

The couple's three youngest children were flown to the United States yesterday.

Official reports say the Shah has left for a "vacation" and medical treatment. In fact, he was asked to leave by the man he appointed prime minister earlier this month.

Over the past few months, there have been an increasing number of violent clashes between security forces and anti-Shah demonstrators.

Opposition to the Shah has become united behind the Muslim traditionalist movement led by Iran's main spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini, from exile in France.

The Shah never returned to Iran. He died in exile in Egypt in 1980.

Ayatollah Khomeini returned to Iran on 1 February after 14 years' exile.

He threw out Dr Bahktiar's government on 11 February and, after a referendum, declared an Islamic Republic on 1 April.

This mideast turmoil
Is way beyond any power of words.
There are no words left to say about the situation.
There have been billions, trillions of words spoken, written in an attempt to bring harmony in the mid-east.

To keep insisting that there is some words that will bring peace is as unrealistic as a child's imaginary world.
The REAL WORLD presents two paths to peace and is all that exist.

War that completely destroys and enemy's will to fight is one way.
The other is through forgiveness for any wrong done by either side and be good neighbors.

Forgetting past hatreds, forgiving every transgression any side has ever done and lay down all weapons of war and pick up the tools of trade.

The hatred the islamics have for Israel is a constant drum for war, and what most of the world marches in step to.
Giving their hate speech credence by extension through the media that generates more and more hate.

We do not hear the Words of Peace from a single muslim nation.
Forgiveness of any and all past perceived wrongs.
The reason we will never hear such words of peace from muslims, is because this path is not available to the religion of islam.
This religion has no forgiveness in, it only has hate and destruction for any who will not bow to it and accept mohammed and his god allah.

Its a spiritual battle as irreconcilable as as some marriges.

islam cannot forgive and accept the Jews, Israel or their religion.
This is proven over and over again
This is the problem in the mid-east, irreconcilable differences that words cannot overcome.


Read it and weep, Manny. :D
"Not exactly a best seller."

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080629/FEATURES0202/ 806290593

"10. CHURCHILL, HITLER AND "THE UNNECESSARY WAR," by Patrick J. Buchanan. (Crown, $29.95.) British blunders led to World War II, Buchanan argues. (3)"

This is for 29 June. Who cares what the critics say? Most of them are like you who attempt to substitute the meaningless charge of "antisemitism" in lieu of an argument as your post shows.

Finally a voice of sanity...
... on the Middle East situation. If Dubya makes clear to Israel that the US won't support them making stupid, paranoid attacks, Israel won't start WW3.

TO: JD's Handsome Son: Should Israel make the US such an "offer we can't refuse," here's hoping Dubya calmly tells Israel how many Tomahawks we have in range of the Knesset.
TO: Gary Rosen: A far worst problem is yours' (and others') "anti-antisemite derangement syndrome," a compulsive need to scream "jooooohater!!!" at people who use better logic than yourself.

war with iran is stupid
keep in mind that iran has not attacked another country in recent history.

first, if israel and america do airstrikes on iran, we will not get all the missles, they would be able to rebuild quickly.

second, they would blockade the strait of hormuz.

third, they would launch an attack on the americans in iraq which would be supported by the iraqis.
i mean no one seriously believes that iraqis would choose to fight on the side of israel do you?

now the end of game of all this would be a global economic meltdown as oil becomes impossible to get.

even if we nuke them, how many millions of our allies would also die.

all this sabre rattling is similar to what went on before we went into iraq and look at the mess that caused.

this would make iraq look like a day at the park.


The Divorce between the Jews &muslims
There is no ground for compromise in the teaching of mohammed v. Jesus Christ or Moses.


This divorce is final
Irreconcilable differences.
No marriage can be restored between the two.

Two opposite vows have been taken by eastern religions and western religions.
Which are the basis, the very Foundation of governments.

One might as well try to reconcile light and darkness.
Truth and lies
Hate and Love.
Peace and War

There will never be any reconciliation between islam and the rest of the world.

islam is like a groom who demands his wife serve him, and she is not free to think, act or speak of her own desire, will or person.
Only what her husband allows her to do.

This is the real islam as seen in all muslim marriagies between individual men and women muslims.
This relationship of marriage as seen in the religion of islam, is the same relationship islam demands with all nations.

The only way to live together in peace with this religion is to act like the wife does to her muslim husband.
Subjection to him in complete obedience or be stoned to death.

This is the very heart and soul of islam, because it is a satanic religion.
Its devil worship, the same devil worship the mid-east has had since the days of Moses, and God was Against.

To see what the power of religion has to the foundation of Nations, just compare Saudi Arabia to America.

Irreconcilable Differences
There are no words to bring the two sides into harmony and live together in Peace
Patrick is ignoring these funadmantals




Agree with Manny, disagree with cutty-
shark.

I am a conservative Catholic, so in general i am predisposed to agree with Pat. Though I'm not an isolationist, I do agree with him that we poke our noses in too indiscriminately. and i agree with him that we need a 'balanced' diplomacy in the middle east, always guaranteeing Israel's existence, if not its every diplomatic or military move. But the frequency and the vehemence with which Pat denigrates Israel goes beyond the pale. No, disagreeing with the state of Israel doesn't make one an antisemite, but Pat seems to do it with such glee that i believe there's more there than geopolitics. still, his is an interesting voice to be heard. Plus as a religious person, i wish Israelies were more religious, more Jewish, than secular, but that's their business.

Talent scout .....
You are correct; this will never end and is costing “US” huge amounts of money and human lives. No one will listen as they all have their own ideas as to why we should be involved in this now. The biggest got you is the terrorism card that is played to the American people. Well, I will play the trump card and if anyone chooses to believe, it is up to them. That is this; the Carter Administration in fact turned their back on Iran this cannot be disputed. President Jimmy Carter and HIS Advisers are directly responsible for setting in motion what has happened and what will happen in the ME. The sooner everyone gets a grip on that the better we all in America may be…. You may ask how I know this…. Well; I was there and was involved in the watching entire picture unfold that is why. I will not nor cannot tell all just know that if you want to know why Carter did what he did… ASK JIMMY CARTER WHY, just maybe he will tell you.

If a person is dead set against
Any spiritual knowledge Christianity and Judaism teaches, then listen to a secular poet who says the same thing with this poem.

he Ballad of East and West

Rudyard Kipling (1865–1936)


OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

Clear voices are not allowed
Into the Public Arena of Ideas today.


Fbrosius writes:12:10 PM EST
Subject: Talent scout .....
You are correct; this will never end and is costing “US” huge amounts of money and human lives.
===
ts:
The costs are the very basis for the War.
It creates debt
Debt is the basis for the expansion of the money supply.
Fiat paper cannot expand without debt.
The western powers of finance and government must have debt creation to maintain the system's growth and control.
===

Fbrosius writes:

No one will listen as they all have their own ideas as to why we should be involved in this now.
====
ts:
Its all salesmanship.
A salesman will say anything to make a sale.
The political voices we hear as to the war on terror is all salesmanship.
Lots of money and power to made in all of this.
They create a need, then create a solution, all for manipulation to bring about the changes the very powerful men of the world have planned.
Both Businessmen and Governments desire globalism, this is all part of it.

continued....



Exactly right
Fbrosius writes:

The biggest got you is the terrorism card that is played to the American people.
====
ts:
One just needs to bring his eyes back with-in the Borders of America and watch what the Government is doing here, justified by the War on Terror, and he can wise up.

====


Fbrosius writes:

Well, I will play the trump card and if anyone chooses to believe, it is up to them. That is this; the Carter Administration in fact turned their back on Iran this cannot be disputed. President Jimmy Carter and HIS Advisers are directly responsible for setting in motion what has happened and what will happen in the ME. The sooner everyone gets a grip on that the better we all in America may be….
====
ts:
I am afraid millions in America will not see it until its too late.
But if the truth be hid, then its a greater power that has already judged the course of nature.
And allows the free will to decide ones own fate in who they choose to believe in.

Just like the German Citizens who bought into the politics of Hitler, and found the path to utter destruction.
All politics are for the manipulation of the minds of men.
====

Fbrosius writes:


You may ask how I know this…. Well; I was there and was involved in the watching entire picture unfold that is why. I will not nor cannot tell all just know that if you want to know why Carter did what he did… ASK JIMMY CARTER WHY, just maybe he will tell you.
====
ts:
I believe you
Many of us believe you.
Truth cannot be hidden, just ignored, for a time.

Jimmy Carter belongs to the elite and powerful group of men who seek world government.

Half the truth though Buck
You dismiss half this story by not bringing it into your statements along with this:
=====

Buck writes:12:50 PM EST
Subject: America Firsters Trump Israel Firsters !
...
The United states does not take orders from Israel,a nation that has been propped up by American Taxpayers money for decades.We don't take orders from a nation that was saved from defeat in The'73 War ,when President Nixon rushed in desperately needed military supplies to reverse the situation.

====
ts:
The arabs were also being supplied to make the war.
By the Soviet Union

Contradiction among the right?
I finished this article and expected to see "anti-semite" and the like in post after post. Decided to see the earliest I could find it....post 2.

Liberals regularly claim that conservatives being against affirmative action is due to racism. They claim being against gov't mandated family leave is sexist. They claim being against expanding social programs and universal health care is code for hating the poor.

Based on this, I find it odd that...ummm... "big-government" conservatives then turn the tide and believe that when someone believes the US should not rummage through the ME militarily, that somehow is code for anti-Semite.

International Politics
Iran/Israel/US/WMD/war. A complex situation. To chart a course, list facts as accurately as possible.
1. The nuclear cat is out of the bag. If Iran wants a few, Russia, Pakistan, who knows who else would sell them?
2. Each of the 3 countries have their own agendas. overlapping in some places, very diferent in others.
3. We are entitled to put our own interests first, and we can rely on the others to do so, AS THEY SEE IT.
4. Clarity of intentions is useful. We can all think of wars that started because aggressors "thought" the victim would not fight back.

Given these principles and others, the US should make clear to Israel under just what conditions we would support Israeli action. My preference would be so long as no action were taken outside its own borders, no attack on Iran. Granted, this begs the question of Iran's actions in supporting Jihadis all over the ME. If we decide to take serious umbrage, warn Iran first, and then follow through. If not, warn Israel we will not necessarily support action by Israel to mitigate jihadi attacks financed and trained by Iran. It is a parlous path to tread between war and being nibbled to death.

War on Terror
Identifies no enemy.
But it is broad enough to include any person on the earth who the government decides to use it on.

Over time the laws enacted against the word terror, can be applied to any person in America, and abused from its intended purpose.

Many of us will say I trust the government to not ever abuse these laws, as if no such thing is possible or ever done.
Or
I trust the President.
Problem is, he is a temp and will be replaced, and who knows what any person will do after him.

But without this war on "terror" no laws could have been made to use against a citizen by any of them.

The enemy needs to be identified as who they are.
muslims who are militant, and the teaching of islam as the enemy of all western liberty.
Cause it is.
islam cannot adapt or change, it seeks to convert by words or sword.

Knowing this, there are men who understand how to use this to bring about the world wide changes they intend to bring to pass.

They also know how to divide the people, using the bias of human nature against us.

Americans need to wise up to how we are being manipulated by both political parties in America.
Both owned by the powerful world government interests

Pat is at the Islamists side of ME
conflict ...

... by the exactly same way as he was at the Nazi side of WW2 in all his writings all his life.

Pat Buchanan says that Adolf Hitler only sought to dominate Europe, making him "no physical threat to the US" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan

Mr. Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals ...
New York Times, 4/21/87

Pat Buchanan was vehement in pushing President Reagan -- despite protests -- to visit Germany's Bitburg cemetery, where Nazi SS troops were buried...

Buchanan was credited with crafting Ronald Reagan's line that the SS troops buried at Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration

camps." (New York Times, 5/16/85; New Republic, 1/22/96)
________


The people like Pat Buchanan were at the Nazi side of the WW2, now they at the Islamofascists side of the next Clash of Civilizations and they always will be at the Evil side of any war.


See also to whom exactly Pat Buchanan wrote all these hatred articles, who are the people of his main target audience:
"The Enemy Within: Hot Summer of 2006":
http://conservativevalley.townhall.com/g/8cccee19-73a0-4789 -8fa9-6f4852ec0f15

History Lesson
There is a reason to study history and not the PC nonsense which passes for history that is becsuse someday some revisionist like Buchanan will come along and re-write it to suit his political agenda. The assasination of the Arch-Duke didn't cause WWI it may have been an excuse but not the cause. Danzig didn't cause WWII although Hitler used it as an excuse to avenge Germany's loss in WWI. Both General Pershing and General Foch predicted a continuation of hostilities within 20 years if Germany was not made to surrender rather than sign an armistice. They missed the date by 10 months.

Iran has threatened Israel for years and is on the brink of developing a weapon which can make that possible. Israel on the other hand has not tried to impose its will or religion on anyone. As of Iran not being a threat to America before the attack on 9-11 who believed Afgahastan was a threat. We can either wait until we are forced into a situation where war is the only course or we can prepare for war and let the Iranians know under no uncertain terms agression against Israel will be considered an attack on the US.

Poland
Buchannan is a another one of these modern Chamberlain's with his "Peace in our time" talk. He is implying that World War II would have never taken place if Poland had not negotiated. They saw what "negotiation" did for another small country.

Assuming that Pat is right, Instead of the war beginning in 1939, it would have surely began in 1940 or 41.

By using Pat's logic, England is a small nation, we should not have been involved in 1939-41. If FDR had taken that view, the world, today, would have been a different place! Our involvement in Europe may have never happened or if it did, World War II would have ended in 1948 or 49. Anyway the USA would have come into conflict with a far stronger Germany!

As long as the Mullah's control Iran, Iran will eventually, by design or miscalculation tip the region into a war. Israel would survive a major ground war with Iran and it's proxies. In a nuclear exchange, Iran could survive as a nation but Israel would not.

All Iran would have to do is nuke Tel Aviv and two other major population centers and Israel would cease to exist. Of course, the Israeli Defense forces would devastate Iran and more than likely take out Syria, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Lebanon settling "old scores".




The Mortor
That binds the west to the east is money.
Finance.
Both the muslims and the western governments and businessmen, the merchants love money.
Its the only common ground that exists between the east and the west.

Like Solomon said:
"money answereth all things"

He also said nothing is new under the sun.
Just as the merchants sent out explorers and paid for all expenses back in history, the merchants love for trade is pushing governments into the problems it brings to all nations.

Love of money
Root of all evil
Not money, the love for it, its the same old greed that compelled world exploration and exploitation.

Love of money has created the problems and now sold as the solution, world trade, globalism, one world government.

All in opposition to the Words of the Creator and this Nations Founding Principles based in Christianity



Party right, party left
And you still get it half right
=====

Buck writes: 1:55 PM EST
Subject: Yoo talent scooter !
My point was that Israel would have been defeated without President Nixon's emergency airlift of replacement military equipment and ammunitions.
====
ts:
Its appears this may be true, but we will never know, cause its said and done.
Water under the Bridge
=======
Buck writes:

Just as Israel was propped up by American taxpayers' money for decades.
====
ts:
So is Egypt and Jordan, even Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Why pick out just Israel?
As if we do not aide hundreds of countries around the world?
You got something against just Israel maybe?
====
Buck writes:
Are you saying that had not the Soviets been aiding the Arabs in The '73 War, The U.S. would have allowed Israel to Fall.

====

ts:
I am saying without Soviet involvement, the arabs would not have been able to make the war to begin with.
====

Buck writes:
If you are then say it! You're up Neocon Israel Agendist !
====
ts:
This is wrong
I am a very old conservative, nothing new about what I believe in support for Israel.
====
Buck writes:
American First
ers Trump Israel Firsters,Right?
====
ts:
I am America First
This is why I support Israel over the arabs

So who among us is anti-American?
Jews or arabs?
muslim's or Israeli's?

Mosque's or Synagogue's?

Hamas or Mossad?

If you even act like you do not know, you are a liar

What's cooking with Pat?
After reading Pat's last two articles, I honestly think that his "issues" with Israel and with US/Israli have led him into an anti-American and almost a Pro-Palestinian postion. I don't think I can go down that road with him. I do not agree with our Middle-East policy entirely, but Israel is our ally and the Arabs and Palestinians are not. We must support Israel. And by the way, Israel in not Poland.

American people support Israel
talent scout Jul 11-2:29 PM EST wrote:

"I am a very old conservative, nothing new about what I believe in support for Israel."
====

It is not about conservative VS. liberals, republicans VS. democrats, ...

The vast majotity of the American people (both conservative VS. liberals) support Israel:

Middle East Sympathie. Feb. 6-9 2006. The Gallup Organization, Princeton, NJ

by Religious Preference
Israel % / Arabs %

White Protestants
63 / 14

White Catholics
64 / 13

White other religions
Israel % / Arabs %
66 / 10

White no religion
Israel % / Arabs %
45 / 19

__

by Party Affiliation
(2002-2006 Aggregate)
Israel % / Arabs %

Republicans
72 / 11

Democrats
47 / 20

Independents
49 / 16

____

by Ideology
(2002-2006 Aggregate)
Israel % / Arabs %

Conservatives
67 / 11

Liberals
43 / 25

Moderate
52 / 16
___

by Race
(2002-2006 Aggregate)
Israel % / Arabs %

Whites
58 / 14

Blacks
40 / 24

Regal Lion
How is it anti-American to question Bush administration policy regarding Israel?

Israel isn't part of the US nor is the US a satellite of Israel's, despite the efforts of the neocons.

M Sederoff (#21) wrote
"In the first place, the Islamists insist that the entire Middle East is sacred. And once they get control of all of the Middle East, it will be the entire planet earth that is sacred and belongs to Allah".

Your tense is wrong, Sederoff--they've already given hints of the latter through demands (not only by Indian Muslims, but also Arabs and Banglas) that the Ayodhya mosque (in extremely serious disrepair when VHP pulled it down in Dec 1992) be rebuilt.

Buck
I will get back to this thread later.
I do not have time right now to go into what you are bringing up.
Some I agree with. some I do not.
But one thing is for certain.
If you insist on calling me a neocon, get screwed

Buchanan: Joke and Punchline
Unfortunately this guy's brain has shut down, but his word processor hasn't. Who does this guy know that keeps his tripe in print? Does anyone but Buchanan himself take anything he writes seriously?

WOW!
Is this Pat Buchanon or Noam Chomsky??

I'm absolutely in love with this line of thinking and how logically it examines the consequences of our relationship with client state Israel.

And how clearly PB perceives the need some politicians have for War Without End. And what levels they will stoop to get it.

Hopefully the true conservative -- I'm looking at you Ron Paul guys out there -- can recognize that endless foreign war is *not* the solution to our economic trouble.

rightviewpoint with the polls
whatever happened to democrats and libs? they used to be the MOST pro Israel, and now so much less than the rest (sane) parts of the country.

Buck: From your posts, you (and Pat B.) are sad and pitiable. Is Israel perfect? No. Do we America Firsters have to take our marching orders from them? No. But are they better than jumping in a hot tub with Achaminjab? (sorry for the sp)Definitely. Being an America Firster means seeking out and supporting allies who have more or less (no, not perfectly)the same values we have, and Israeli society is a lot more like ours than the surrounding nations. the enemy of my enemy (Al Quaeda, Iran, Hamas, taliban etc.) is my (imperfect) friend.

Party right Party left Buck
Buck writes:- 3:26 PM EST
Subject: Question, Talent Scooter !
Gee, let's see here talent scooter.
We just caught another spy for Israel, Ben-Ami Kadish.His handler from The Israeli Consulate in New York was also Jonathan Pollard's handler.
====
ts:
Not up on what Ben-Ami Kadish done, so will try to find some info about it.
Pollard gave Israel some info that did not jeopardize US National Security.

You are probably not up on the facts of the Pollard case.
Here, you read up on it first, unless your hate for Israel keeps you from the truth.

" The information being withheld from Israel included Syrian, Iraqi, Libyan and Iranian nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare capabilities - being developed for use against Israel. It also included information on ballistic missile development by these countries and information on planned terrorist attacks against Israeli civilian targets.

When Pollard discovered this suppression of information and asked his superiors about it, he was told to "mind his own business", and that "Jews get nervous talking about poison gas; they don't need to know."



I will address you other points too in another post...




fritz
"Who does this guy know that keeps his tripe in print?"

The same readers who have made his books best sellers.

"Does anyone but Buchanan himself take anything he writes seriously?"

See above. Of course if he upsets you that much you have the option not to read his columns and books and demand your reps to repeal the 1st amendment.

Buck writes:
C.F.I.U.S. gave Israeli Company Checkpoint the same treatmen,in it's Sorcefire Deal as it eventually gave to The U.A.E's Dubai Ports.

=====
ts:
I do not know what you are talking about with this.
Except I know about the rotten attempt to take the Ports over by arabs.
So what is your point here?
====
Buck writes:

Israel Illegally Sold U.S. Weapons Technology to The Red Chinese,jeopardizing U.S. Allies Taiwan and Japan.
====
ts:
Finally a point made I agree with, and condemn this by Israel, as you do.
Worse yet is we have allowed the Chinese in here who are getting access to lots of info aren't we.
Plus we handed the Panama canal over to the Chinese.
Plus we owe a trillion dollars to the Chinese.
Plus Billy bob Klinton sold the Chinese the complete goods that can actually be used to hit any American City with Nuclear Armed Missiles.

The Guidance Systems, and other such info.
We are our own worst enemy I think.
Israel is minor in comparison.








NPT and Iran
The Iranians have insisted, they are entitled, under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty they signed and Israel did not, to enrich uranium for fuel in power plants.

But Pat, the Iranians have consistently and repeatedly broken Article III of the NPT and probably Article II as well. (http://www.un.org/events/npt2005/npttreaty.html) These guys are not victims. They are not responsible enough to posess nuclear weapons. They want to use them against Israel and the US.

Buch writes:
Israel deliberately attacked The U.S.S. Liberty.
====
ts:
Yes, I agree And find it reprehensible.
Just as you do, and all the men who was on that Ship have a legitimate complaint against Israel.
Just as other nations have been given the right to register a complaint against the USA when we have killed some of their troops by "friendly fire".
I think the Israelis knew beyond a doubt the Liberty was an American Ship.
What they did not know was what it was doing there.

====

Buck writes:
Are Israeli's really just "A Lesser Evil",sortta like The NeoCon Frontman, McCain?
=====
ts:
Israel is an Ally
Good and evil where they align with out own Security and Values.
Much closer than all, or any arab nation does.

We supported Russia against Nazi Germany too.
Does that mean we put Russia first?
Only in a fools mind.

We support Israel as an Ally no different than supporting Russia as an Ally.
Islam is everyone enemy in the west and east for human dignity and freedom.

Get focused where the real problems of today are Buck.
It is not Israel, which would be happy if left alone, and the murder loving arabs never will.



No more...
No more blank stares from your articles. I'm done reading you.

The Peace maker
Buck writes:4:07 PM EST
Subject: Settle Down Little Talent Scooter !
That's Bold Talk there Talent Scooter. Read my last post at 3:40 PM,before you try to get all chesty with me,with your 3:51 post.Got it? You're gettin' all sloppy,confused and careless on me here Talent Scooter. Get a hold on yourself,guy!
====
ts:
Nothing chesty about telling you to get screwed Buck.
Get it?
Get screwed, if you insist on calling me neocon.
I will accept paleocon.
Thats it though, do not accept your bs, and you can get screwed if you insist.


What if Iran strikes Israel?
Iran has publically stated they intend to wipe Israel off the map. Hitler II is real. and his "faith" has made him very dangerous indeed.

My question, and something PB doesn't raise - what is his answer if Iran launches some of those missles at Israel first? Do we have a responsibility there? Or do we just watch it go up in smoke, as I think he suggests Britain should have done with Poland in 1939?

Clearly, Iran poses a threat to not only Israel, but to the free world. We don't need a war with them - just a surgical strike, coordinated with Israel (what's wrong with that?) that will knock out their capability for 10-15 years. That is not a war.

Now, if he wanted to go in and do regime change, that is another matter - but that might be the right answer.

...why, Pat
Why would we denounce Israel for doing what is in their and the world's best interest? That's Pat-speak or diplospeak that we have come to hate, whether from the left or right.

I guess there's no moral gulf between the two countries and their respective stances on Iran's nuclear development. Nice moral retardation, Pat. You would denounce, while I would have a parade the day Israel bombs Iran's nuclear facilities. I guess that's the difference between you and me.

Go away, Pat. Your mind has degenerated to the point of worthlessness.

Uhh, no
>Iran has publically stated they intend to wipe Israel off the map. Hitler II is real. and his "faith" has made him very dangerous indeed.<

Your first mistake is equating Ahmadinejad with Hitler as the dictator of Iran. That perception is false. Ahmadinejad is not at the top of the power structure in Iran, and has been publicly rebuked by the ruling mullahs for his provacative rhetoric.

>Clearly, Iran poses a threat to not only Israel, but to the free world.<

Clearly, you are deluded. Iran only presents a threat to the free world(a rather meaningless term - is Iraq, occupied by a foreign army part of your free world?) in conjunction with either Russia or China or both. Otherwise, militarily they are strictly third world, fully incapable of challenging a fully nuclear Israel, much less the juggernaut of the west, which is what I presume you mean by the free world.

US policy on ME "turning point"

(response to Joseph Jul 11 - 4:44 PM EST)

Actually, it was the republican administration decision to begin to consider Israel as a powerful American ally in the Middle East.

This idea first came to Nixon's mind as a result of the of "Six-Day War" (1967 Arab-Israeli War).

The so called "June War", was fought between Israel and Arab neighbors Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The nations of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces. Israel won the war ..

A couple of years later Nixon decided that US needs to keep close relationships with military strong pro-western Israel, and did this American Foreign Policy turning point on ME.

After all, Nixon administration -- as any republican administration -- was listening the voice of American people:
__________
Gallup Poll results of the most consistently asked question regarding American public attitudes toward the Middle East:

"In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with Israel or with the Arab nations?"


Israel|Arabs
(year - %|%)

1967 38 3
1969 50 5
1970 38 3
1973 44 5
1973 48 6
1974 38 6
1975 44 8
1977 44 8
1978 44 10
1979 40 14
1980 45 13
1981 44 11
1982 49 14
1983 49 12
1986 43 20
1989 50 14
1990 48 23
1991 64 8
1993 42 15*
1996 38 15*
1997 38 8*
1998 46 13*
1999 43 14*
2000 43 13*
2001 51 14*
2002 55 14*
2003 58 13*
2004 55 18*
2005 52 18*

Pat Buchanan worked for President Nixon as a speechwriter. Both of them shared the same negative feelings concerning the Jews ...

Why did Nixon so many efforts in order to set up the strong relationship between Jew's state and USA ?

Because Nixon as a President loved this country more than he personally dislike Jews.

Pat Buchanan most definitely loves this country. No questions about it. The Buchanan's problem is that he hates Jews more than he loves America.

Patrick we hardly knew ye!
At some point as an American we have to decide are we going to be Pro-Israel or not. Since Israel is surrounded by hostel enemies, and really has no very strong or reliable allies in the entire world except for the US, I beleive that we need to support them. There is no doubt in my mind that, save for the US, Israel would be obliterated by her Arab "FRIENDS". Pat on the otherhand has always been against our support for Israel on some level -and now with his recent Pro-Obama article - comparing Obama to Reagan - and his book portraying Hitler as a victim of British foreign policy - I can only conclude that Pat isn't the Pat I thought he was. I am for Israel and against any natin that seeks her destruction. And I am a Christian not a Jew.

Jimbo
I thought you were done with reading Pat and here you writing more nonsense.

"You would denounce, while I would have a parade the day Israel bombs Iran's nuclear facilities."

Your parade would last all of six hours, for that is how long it would take for oil to shoot up to $200+ per barrel. And with that the US economy would start to grind to a halt along with food shipments, etc. But that is alright with people like you, for you would have an opportunity to stand in front of the mirror and say to yourself "I'm a good person, for I care more about Israel than I do America by putting them first." Liberals do the same thing domestically in regards to "social spending".

If you really want to see the effects of an attack, just shoot yourself. That would have the same effect.

Fortunately, despite the lies of neocon talk radio and Fox it looks like the rest of us will avoid this disaster for it appears the brass isn't going along with this supreme act of stupidity from either Olmert or Bush. I suspect the greed heads on Wall Street aren't going to go along with this as well due to the stock market dropping below 11,000 today. They have their investments to protect. I bet Rush or Medved didn't say anything about this today. After all, they have plenty of money to get through this whereas, I bet you don't.

Turn off the radio and the tv and do some research instead of believing everything they say.

Parallel universe
>The Buchanan's problem is that he hates Jews more than he loves America.<

Isn't it humorous that the same people who justifiably denounce political correctness when it comes to racism completely abandon their principles when it comes to Israel or Jews?

It's entirely possible to question our foreign policy concerning Israel without being a Jew hater, just as it is entirely possible to question the motives and agenda of the Reverends Wright, Jackson and Sharpton without hating black people.



utahnotmormon
I wouldn't exactly call it humorous, but your point is well taken. It wouldn't surprise me if a check on the IP numbers here showed a sizable number originated from Israel while the other Israel first comments come from brain washed dispensationalists.

Pat must be loaded...
All I can say is that Pat msut be rolling in dough if he feels that he can get away with writing this Pro-Obama, Pro-Hitler, Anti-American scrawlings over the past few weeks.

Get screwed Buck
Tough guy

Key board tough guy
Internet thug
Your threats are stupid and shows your attitude, moron.

I will back Israel like it or not tough guy.

Anti-American scrawlings
I'm curious as to what constitutes anti-American. Is it opposition to American government policies?

If that's the case, one of the American government policies is to take the money of hard working Americans and spread it out to lazy not hard working Americans in the form of entitlements and welfare. Does opposing these policies make one anti-American?

Since the 60s, America has developed policies of environmental protectionism that have evolved beyond what many people feel are realistic. Are these people anti-American?

Here's a clue.

You are not a spokesperson for what is and what isn't anti-American. Just express your opinion and allow people to form their own conclusions. Otherwise you're guilty of moronic hyperbole.

utahnotmormon
Yeah, a person can criticize US/Israeli foreign policy without being a Jew-hater, but the options are always reduced to land for peace and the Palestinians never get enough land to make them happy - they simply will not be satisfied until all the Jews on earth are dead. How can we walk away from Israel - who has been our ally for 50 years? I say that we cannot, and I believe that Obama is pro-Palestinian and any Jew who votes for him is certifiably insane. It is also Obama's closet support for the Palestinians that makes him an attractive candidate to Pat Buchanan too. For Pat to compare Obama to Reagan is a slap in the face to every conservative not just to the Rpublican Party who Pat probably hates.

Let's not fight.......
OK; let me toss this out and see who fields it. What is it that Israel has that the American People are so willing to back with money and equipment and the lives of our children?

One point is this: At one point in time America backed both Israel and Iran did they not, if I am wrong on this someone please tell me so.

Next point; “IF” Israel tosses and bomb or so at Iran; let alone a tactical nuke, Someone please tell me why that sucks America into it. Someone please explain this to me so I understand. I hope no one says it is because they are Jewish and the American Jewish faith groups or interests are backing them from here.

This is a discussion lets keep it that way and not fight with each other; I’m just trying to understand WHY AMERICA is so willing to sacrifice our children in defense of Israel.

Why is this tool still writing for TH???
Gee, how nice of Pat B. to take a break from his busy schedule apppearing with neo-facist and racial supremicist groups to spread a little dishonest revisionism here at Townhall.

Mr. Buchanan would be better suited to a site like Stormfront than a respectable outfit like TH.

Poland refused to "negotiate"? And exactly what did Britian do to help when Hitler invaded Poland?

Send this revisionist, foolish, blatantly dishonest has-been packing. He has no place in intelligent, honest discourse.

Fbrosius
Because it is the right thing to do. Because I for one, as a Christian-American, cannnot sit on my hands while Iran lobs missles into Israel, like Hussein did. If we pull out and leave Israel to fned for herself, what do you think will happen? Answer: Armageddon

Buck
I see your point, but when does the US defend Israel in your opinion?

Regal Lion
Pat's comparison with Obama was only in the sense that today's circumstances resemble the ones that got Reagan elected. I don't know where you come up with this pro-Obama nonsense. It isn't there. Pat is doing one of the things he does best, political analysis. In any event, this one thing about Obama should absolutely delight you.

"And that flag pin Barack got rid of after 9-11, calling it a "substitute ... for real patriotism"? It's back on the lapel."

What you are really mad about other than his opinions about WWII and Israel is that Pat doesn't write the crap one can hear on any neocon talk radio show and isn't out there praising McCain to the skies.

And this:

"Yeah, a person can criticize US/Israeli foreign policy without being a Jew-hater, but the options are always reduced to land for peace and the Palestinians never get enough land to make them happy - they simply will not be satisfied until all the Jews on earth are dead."

If the Israelis would quit stealing land and water in the West bank this problem wouldn't be near as bad as it is today. If they want more squattlements, fine, just don't do it on my dime. No nation gave the US any money in the pursuit of Manifest Destiny. The US shouldn't pay for what Israel is doing in the West bank.

Uthahnotmormon
"Clearly, you are deluded. Iran only presents a threat to the free world in conjunction with either Russia or China or both. Otherwise, militarily they are strictly third world, fully incapable of challenging a fully nuclear Israel, much less the juggernaut of the west, which is what I presume you mean by the free world"

Frankly, I think you are the deluded one...We are not fighting rational people here. He actually thinks he will bring about his world wide caliphate. He thinks the Jews should be destroyed. Hitler was underestimated the exact same way. And we all paid dearly. They are close to obtaining the means to deliver a ballistic long range strike. This won't be a tank battle, mind you.

If the Mullahs are tired of this Hitler II - why haven't they gotten rid of him? He is dedicated to bring Shiite rule...he is a madman, and we had better give heed. You, and many others underestimate his ambition, and motivation, and overestimate his rationality.

So, you don't have any issues with Iran obtaining nuclear capability? No issues wiht them giving it to Al Qada and coming to your home town?

They just launched missles, and there are no missle defense systems up and running to our knowledge, not even close.

Fbrosius
"I hope no one says it is because they are Jewish and the American Jewish faith groups or interests are backing them from here."

I hate to write this to you, but that is precisely what the Iranians have said in the past. The Iranians really believe that Israel and its amen corner all the shots here. I can understand why after reading this thread and the comments made by Bush and company. There is also the business of the Israelis over flying Iraqi airspace.

Ryan01
So would you agree to stopping all foreign aid to all middle-eastern countries including your beloved Palestinain friends, and then let the Israelis obliterate them which they are quite capable of doing? Would that make you happy?

And by the way, I do not care if Obama wears a pin on his lapel or not, but since you are not going to take a stand in this election by voting for McCain - whom you criticize more than you do Obama btw - what third party loser are you going to vote for?

Or are you going to vote for Obama like I believe Pat will becaause you both know that Obama is PRO-PALESTINIAN.


Walk away?
> How can we walk away from Israel - who has been our ally for 50 years?<

You're extrapolating beyond reason. Buchanan hasn't said we should walk away nfrom Israel. He says we should be more objective in our overview. But objectivity doesn't seem to be your strong suit.
> they simply will not be satisfied until all the Jews on earth are dead.<

How many Palestinians have you spoken to in your life? I'm betting not enough to make any kind of qualified estimate as what they will be satisfied with.

>I believe that Obama is pro-Palestinian..

Obama's closet support for the Palestinians..<

Closet support = I'm guessing

to compare Obama to Reagan is a slap in the face to every conservative not just to the Rpublican Party who Pat probably hates.<

So, in your world, only conservatives have leadership skills. Putting aside your obvious bias, you would probably admit that Obama has displayed some leadership skills, even if they are ideologically opposed to Reagan. But your lack of objectivity doesn't allow you to see how the world actually functions.

Let's say half this country is liberal and half conservative. If your starting point as a conservative is that you hate liberals, then you hate half the country and are anti-half of America. If your starting point as a liberal is that you hate conservatives, then you hate half the country and are anti-half of America.

If you think that hating half of your fellow Americans is a good starting point, then I feel sorry for you, but hatred appears to consume you.

>the Rpublican Party who Pat probably hates.<






RL
"If we pull out and leave Israel to fned for herself, what do you think will happen? Answer: Armageddon"

If Bush and Olmert bomb Iran we will get Armageddon, something that I believe the dispensationalists really want to see. I don't.
===
FreedomResponsibility,

"So, you don't have any issues with Iran obtaining nuclear capability?"

Nope, I want to buy their oil.

"No issues wiht them giving it to Al Qada and coming to your home town?"

Didn't you get the word? Lieberman himself had to correct McCain in Jordan over this lie. Al Qaida is Sunni. The Iranians are Shiites. They don't like one another.

Isolationism, protectionism, nativism
All have no place in the conservative movement!

Public expression of ignorance
>So, you don't have any issues with Iran obtaining nuclear capability? No issues wiht them giving it to Al Qada and coming to your home town? <

You're inherently dishonest and your expressions of distortion aren't worthy of intelligent debate.

Your attempt as masquerading as someone with relevance is a complete failure.

Regal Lion
"So would you agree to stopping all foreign aid to all middle-eastern countries including your beloved Palestinain friends, and then let the Israelis obliterate them which they are quite capable of doing? Would that make you happy?"

Sure am, and that includes the Palestinians. It wouldn't make me happy, but I bet it would you.

Come on now, isn't a flag pin one of the things that people like you use to judge others? After all, it shows "patriotism".

Ill vote for either Chuck Baldwin or Bob Barr before I will vote for McBama.

Pat won't vote for Obama if for any reason, judges.

You got a great sense of humor Buck
Buck writes: 7:50 PM EST
Scooter Is All Atwitter !
===

He may be, who is scooter? lol

====
Buck writes:
Whaaa' Da Matta Twerp? I can see it,when a Keyboard Runt like you pretends that you're some kind of Hard Girl. You're the one who got belligerent with me, first.Watch your punk mouth,and then I won't have to put you back into your place.Got it Twerp?
=====
ts:
Great sense of humor you got Buck, very funny guy.
I take being called names like neocon, scooter etc as from a smart eleck.
Then you take it to telling me about how tough you are, all for nothing.
That takes a great sense of humor Buck.

I just joined you in your own humor, and thought you might find it as funny as I do and played along calling you a keyboard tough guy.

As we both know, you are not even tough here, either. You cream puff you
Maybe tuff enough to dip snuff, but thats about it blow hard.
Smile now Bucko, mission accomplished, I get your humor



More exposure of ignorance
>We are not fighting rational people here. He actually thinks he will bring about his world wide caliphate.<

Actually, we are not fighting Iran, much to your dismay. The arrogance you display in thinking that you know what Ahmadinejad "actually thinks" is stunning.

I suggest you look at a map. Find Iran. Then find the areas where just the United States military is positioned with the ability to unleash the most devastating attack the world has ever known. The powers in Iran are well aware of this. You can call them madmen or attempt to justify a pre-eminent strike against them, but that would presume that the rulers of Iran have a death wish for their entire society, a presumption based on a religious ideology about which you probably know next to nothing.

In order for Iran to be a real player in the world of military conflict, it would need allies, allies like Russia and China or both.
In that scenario, the possibility, no the likelihood of armageddon becomes very real.

remember the USS Liberty,
the US Navy ship that was attacked by the Israelis for hours even after being identified as American and the complicity of our elected officials in denying aid to our brave military personnel. (Thanks LBJ--what did the Israelis have on YOU?) Our own government gave Israel a pass on that ACT OF WAR.
It is well known that Israel did not want us monitoring actions during the six-day-war (atrocities--massacre cover-up) or to force us int a fight with Egypt.
Could it be that the Israel lobby is so powerful that our elected officials tremble at the sight of AIPAC? (American Israel Political Action Committee).
A Israeli company called AMDOCS handles ALL telephone billing records for the United States.
Combine that with Mossad (the most efficient intelligence agency on the planet), one can see that it would be easy to dig up dirt on many of our politicians (and others).
What we have is the tail (Israel) wagging the dog (USA).
This is NOT an anti-semitic tirade, merely an observation of historical FACT. Given a choice of living in the middle east, it would probably be preferable to live in Israel than in any other country in that part of the world.

Palestine/Jerusalem
Was never sacred to the Muslims. Palestine was a dusty, forgotten back water; Jerusalem had a tiny population, and both were virtually inhabitable. In 1890, less than 100,000 people lived there, and most were transient nomads.

Only after 1918 did the Muslims take notice, and that wasn't until the Zionists began to farm and the settle the lands.Also, Palestinians is a misnomer. About 1/2 of the Palestinians were Egyptians whom for various reasons were thrown out. The remainder were Jordanians and Syrian peasants.

The Muslims declared Jerusalem "Holy" after WWI. BTW, the Muslims still consider Spain and Portugal "thiers", and make no bones about retaking -by peacefull or other means.

Somehow I figured
Ryan01; somehow I figured that would be an answer. So that may mean that the people of the Jewish belief are backing Israel, the home I guess of there belief, either by the money they commit or the power of there position even both. So “IF” this is true then the rest of America is OK with this you are saying? Not only that, America is OK with there son’s getting killed for a religious group then?

I also saw a posting saying how good Obama will be and religion in the same statement; I have got to ask this; sorry but I have to ask, If you are a good Catholic and know what is in the bible in the book of Revelation then “how can you vote for OBAMA?”

Still no one knows or will touch why it is America will back Israel “IF” they start tossing bombs, either way, in the ME….

Really?
>BTW, the Muslims still consider Spain and Portugal "thiers", and make no bones about retaking -by peacefull or other means.<

Most Muslims live in Pakistan, Bangla Desh India and Indonesia, and could give a rat's arse about Spain and Portugal.

And what is it with the insistence of using terms like "The Muslims" as if there's one Muslim brain in the world and no dissension among them.

Muslims are probably less unified than any other major religious group in the world.

Fbrosius
If I understand what you are asking, yes, that is part of it. Most folks who are familiar with this refer to this as the Israeli lobby. It is grouped around the christian zionists, i.e., dispensationalists, provide a considerable amount of pressure through grass roots efforts while the Neocons provide the leadership. You have a small, but determined group here. Most Americans don't know enough about the region to make an informed decision due to mass propaganda put out by neocon talk radio, Fox, and other media.

This book review about "The Israeli Lobby" by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt goes into more detail.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

Uncle Buck,
The toughest keyboard west of the Pecos. Probably a 90 lb. weakling with a wee little willie.

Don't cry Buck,
Just go beat your punching bag, your dog or your meat if that makes you feel better.

Good one Buck!
Just remember, anyone who must brag about how tough they are anonymously online ain't really a man at all.

Ryan01 THX...
at least you have the stones to answer..

I am aware of this: “Protocols of the wise men of Zion that has been proven to be a plagiarism, literary forgery, and a hoax. The original manuscript is not extant. No submissions to direct forensic study have ever been made. Rather, scholars and researchers have been forced to rely primarily on textual analysis and reports from alleged witnesses who claimed to have seen the original. Nevertheless, it has been shown that associated with the alleged original are the elements of a false document.” This I do recall means that there is a deniability factor built in as the original document has never been found.

I find it hard to believe that American People would give up so much if they knew the truth. A lot of what we do in America is built on deception or false truths is it not? I still find it hard to think America would so freely give it’s young to die over something so stupid. I am just amazed…. Thank You for your time.

it's time for israel to....
get nuked off the planet. Think about it. What if it did?

America loses the albatross off our necks. America is freed from the burdens of defending this parastic nation that only brings it's problems to our shores.

israel - we don't need you. Good riddance.

America must take some kind of action.
I don't know what Bush may have in mind or what he plans to do, but something needs to be done about Iran. Whether the US does not want to have a third front or not, the government would not have a choice if we were attacked. Also what should America do if Israel is attacked and almost obliterated?

Also what should America do if Israel is
gone?

not a damn thing. maybe open up some champagne?

America is being scamed...
I think I said something about the “TERRORISM” card back on reply #40; now thanks to Ryan01 I got to read exactly what I was getting at, it is a scam being played on the American people.

‘Terrorism’ is not a single adversary, but a tactic employed by a wide array of political groups. The terrorist organizations that threaten Israel do not threaten the United States, except when it intervenes against them (as in Lebanon in 1982)… More important, saying that Israel and the US are united by a shared terrorist threat has the causal relationship backwards: the US has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around.

Ryan and TS; the tougher question is this; why did the Carter Administration turn there backs on Iran back in 1979 in the first place? One thing I do know is that the answer given by the Carter Administration was not what the Military Leaders had in mind that was suppose to happen.
Pat is right for asking the question; why will America be sucked into something when America dose not have a dog in this race. The president should need congressional approval, that means the approval of the people.

Watchful Waiting
For what its worth, the current President of Iran does not have a monopoly on power. He is a front man for the Supreme Council, which selects who can and cannot run for office, and who struck 2,000 names off the list of acceptable candidates during the last election. More recently, they effectively installed a pragmatist, who was the last Irani nuclear negotiator, in the position of the speaker of their house. He is the 2nd most powerful man in the government. Currently, the tide is running against this man because the economy is doing poorly, and the Supreme Council is not enthused with his constant baiting of the west. He will be gone in the coming election. This doesn't mean the Supreme Council likes the West, but the rhetoric will get toned down a little. At the same time, Iran does not yet have weapons grade nuclear material. They will certainly have it if they continue to pursue energy - but 26 countries also have nuclear weapons, so they'd be the 27th should they develop them. They do not, however, have any ability to strike the US. The missiles they tested have a maximum range of 1200 miles, and the guidance systems do not make them particularly accurate. As far as transporting nuclear material into the US and then presumably making a bomb, that's a far stretch. You can't just carry it around in a suitcase, and you aren't likely to be able to transport a bomb anywhere - given its weight and size.

Further

Iran is aggressive. It's supreme council does not want the US in the middle east, and in that context, they are an enemy. On the other hand, there's little to suggest that a pre-emptive strike will work - because the Irani's have both buried and dispersed the facilites at which much of the work is being done. To effectively prevent them from proceeding will require a ground force - and we don't have those forces at this time. We can't even ship 5 brigades to Afghanistan right now, even though we need to. America is buying time. Israel, in turn, provided a show of power with its Air Force, and Iran responded with some missile tests. It's called saber rattling. Everyone, after all, knew Iran had the missiles, and knew Israel had the Air Force. So it surprised no-one who knew the area.

Obviously, in clearly unsettled those outside the loop. One of the consequences of getting rid of Saddam is that it left Iran as the dominant power in the region - something I doubt was fully appreciated at the time.

And, perhaps its ironic. We took one step in with Afghanistan, and then two steps with Iraq. Now, we're confronted with a third. But if we take on the third, we'd have no choice except to double our Army - because we'd then have far more people involved in Iran, than we currently do in the other two combined.

I guess some wanted a world war against Islam. Perhaps they'll get it. The only question is - who's going to fight it?

Redlac
Good posts. I'll add to two points you made. You'e right. Removing Saddam had the effect of removing a cork from a bottle. Some of us attempted to point this out prior to invading Iraq and were called all sorts of names for our efforts. No matter what this guy did or didn't do, he acted as a counter balance to the Iranians.What is ironic here is that Saddam would have been our best ally when it comes to fighting Al Qaida for the simple reason that Iraq was a secular country verses a sectarian group. When it comes to appreciation of the consequences of his removal I have two schools of thought about this and it involves the neocons. One set is made up of ideological fanatics who actually believe the nonsense about remaking the Middle East in a manner that is friendly to Israel, i.e., subservient. Reopening the Kirkuk-Haifa pipeline is an example. I would put Bill Kristol in this group. And then there are the cynics who use the excuse of "spreading democracy" to hide their real intent, to engage in "creative destruction". They actually want the mess we have over there and consider this a desired goal. Michael Ledeen is a classic example. Remember his sign off, "faster, please"?

As for a world war against Islam it can be added to who will fight to how in the hell are we going to pay for it? China and the Asians banks are underwriting Iraq right now.

Iran can only help America
by nuking israel off the planet. It's unfortunate that israel will attack iran first and then drag US into the conflict.

Be prepared for a worldwide depression to follow.

If we are lucky and Iran had the capability to obliterate israel from the map without israel's retaliation, then we would not suffer any oil supply issues.

Yes - I am going to blame israel on this just like I blame israel for EVERY middle east issue as it relates to America.

We need this monkey, parasite, leech - whatever off our back.

Ryan01
Don't confuse me with the facts is indeed the watchword of the day. As re-enlistments clearly demonstrate, and as the resignations from the officer core equally demonstrate, the volunteer military cannot be quickly expanded "voluntarily". It would take a draft - and no-one in either party wants to go there right now. The forces we have are over-committed, and, like it or not, there aren't any more.

Secondly, we have record budget deficits and trade deficits to deal with and a weak dollar. The international community can veto any attempt to expand the war as long as we have to borrow the money we currently borrow. Further, even if they did agree, we'd have to increase that borrowing - and the dollar would weaken further, increasing costs of imports - such as oil.

Thirdly, a combination of rapidly rising health, food and energy costs is rapidly outstripping the paychecks of all salaried and working class Americans.

Any attack on Iran, whether by air or ground or both, will spike the cost of oil, and in turn, food costs will also rise further. And, if in the process, we try an air attack and don't succeed in destroying their current nuclear fuel processing ability, we will have little to show for it. Worse, if this happens and we damage their oil infrastructure, that damage will simply be magnified.
These are the consequences. None are particularly pallateable right now. And none have any certain outcome - other than poor or bad ones.

We're the worlds largest debtor these days. And that undermines our national security.

Why verbally attack Israel
When she is continually being threatened, and violently attacked by her neighbors.

We spend a great deal on foreign aide to many nations, why not Israel? Why? Israel is of strategic interest to our geopolitical strategy. This small nation prospers, and Jews have made huge contribution to humanity. Proportionally, more contribution than any other ethnic group.

I am witnessing a large amount of anti-Jewish racist sentiment on this board, and frankly, it is sickening.


David Ben Gurion Quote
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipes us out". -- David Ben Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel.

This quote is less than forty years old, and Israel is only sixty years old. There will be no peace in the Middle East anytime soon. This in not the fight of the U.S.

In the end....
Protocols of Zion are a hoax it is said. A group of people have been singled out and tossed out of Russia, England, Poland (Kielce) and of course Germany. “The Jews are the only people in the world who have found hostility in every country in which they settled in any numbers. The big question is -- WHY?” Things have taken place in this country that make no since starting from the President on down the line. Someone or some faction is pulling the strings on this ME mess to keep the fires burning. We as a country can no longer afford this as for what it is costing, the working class are now working to support the ME war on terror and that is all. Someone is making money off this mess and that is a given however we should not be in it at all. The technology we have today allows us to get information on many subjects from many places. I think it is time Americans wake up and ask the hard questions of our politicians and demand the truth about the ME. If you read all the reply’s on this thread it sure looks like something is very wrong in this country. As we all know nothing will be done and nothing will happen and we will be at war with Iran… in the end.

The issue isn't Anti-Semitism
There's nothing anti-semitic about questioning our policies in the middle east. In fact, it has nothing to do with anti-semitism. If Israel did not exist, we would have the same, if not better relationships in the Arab world. The land on which Israel sits is of no strategic value, and provides little of strategic value in terms of resources as well. Some people believe that we carry guilt in this country because of slavery, and our policies are manipulated because of it. The same argument can be made for that strip of land in the ME. Americans, after all, had nothing to do with the holacaust, but we certainly seem to be responsible for its inevitable outcome, which was the establishment of a homeland in the ME for those Europeon Jews who wanted to go there. Most American Jews - did not. And, of course, the very fact we call them Jews, not Germans, English, Americans or the like tends to underline the actual problem. They never integrated into the populations they lived in. There might be no Jews today, had they done so, but there would certainly have been no holacaust. And Christianity would still exist and thrive.

The Arabs, after all, have always respected the historic sites related to Christianity, because they have a shared value. Jesus, to them, was a prophet. Until we came along with Israel, they'd never once tried to desecrate such sites - because they have value to Islam as well. And they'd never, certainly, tried to prevent Christians from accessing those sites.

The issue is not Jews nor anti-semitism. It's precisely as Ben-Gurion laid it out. We took a piece of land in the ME to carve out a nation for a persecuted group of people, and did so over the objections of those who already occupied the area. The rest is drivel. We imposed a great power solution on the region. It didn't work in Yugoslavia, it didn't work in Iraq, and it's not working in Israel/Palestine.

Saul
I like to imagine that all of the sentiments you have expressed about Israel would be the ones your own family or your friends would be expressing about you when you reach some time of need.
It would be just and karmic.

roadkill & noah
Good posts.

Israel
Pat and other's say Israel shouldn't attack Iran?

So Israel is supposed to sit there and be nuked by Iran?

Right.


To any FOOL who thinks letting them wipe Israel off the map will be the end of our problems with Islam....WAKE UP! The Great Satan will then be the only thing standing between them and a world wide caliphate.

I am reading Bernard Lewis's History of the ME. Islam divides the world into the land of Islam and the land of war/infidels. (Dar al-Islam/Dar al-harb)


BTW, Israel was destined.


In future years you will invade a land that has recovered form war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel...they had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. Ez 38:9


Everything is moving inexorably towards a conclusion that has already been predicted. Israel becoming a nation set the timer. They WILL stand until the end.

There is no doubt that GOD will have the last word.

Read EZ 38/39. Bring it on. No one comes to their aid. So either we don't care, or are already out of commission.


"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

Pat
If Pat's point is just that "we are Americans" and shouldn't get drawn into Israel's problems...that would be fine.

So, why does he think the US should tell Israel not to bomb Iran? That would be none of our freaking business, correct?





Iran's Mehr news agency is reporting that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad predicted this week the "satanic powers" - Israel and the U.S. - would be destroyed. He is quoted as saying, "I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene." He continued, "Today, the time for the fall of the satanic power of the United States has come and the countdown to the annihilation of the emperor of power and wealth has started...I tell you that with the unity and awareness of all the Islamic countries all the satanic powers will soon be destroyed."


I should assume the nutjob is just being ironic?

Pat is disgusting.


SunThe1
My passport is from the United States of America. My allegiance is to my great country. I have no use for israel nor do I have a desire to defend it. I don't have a desire to waste American blood and treasure for any country other than my own.

israel's interests are not in our interests all the time. Nor should we fight their battles, defend them and GIVE THEM Billions of dollars in tax payer money and weapons. This relationship will always come at a price - terrorism against us, israel's only ally.

Sorry - but I have plenty of loyal American friends and I don't need any help from any zionist ilk like yourself.

Please move to israel and fight and die for it yourself.

aspacia and Anna
aspacia

You forgot one. They are also the world's smartest people. The Zionists abandoning their attempt to get Argentina as a homeland and to sneer at a British offer of Uganda. This was clearly demonstrated by demanding and getting Palestine right in the middle of all those Muslims. Sheer brilliance!

Anna,

"There is no doubt that GOD will have the last word. Read EZ 38/39. Bring it on. No one comes to their aid. So either we don't care, or are already out of commission."

Good. Let God defend them.

I sick of hearing about how the US has to sacrifice itself for them. This crap has gone on longer than the Cold War.

IRAN MISSILE TEST BLUFF?

IRAN MISSILE TEST BLUFF: OLD ROCKETS, BOGUS VIDEO?

WHAT?

Drudge-Many of Iran’s claims related to missile tests during “Great Prophet III” war games — appear to be smoke and mirrors!

The missiles tested DID NOT not have 2,000-kilometer range, the NEW YORK TIMES is planning to report on Saturday.

Iran DID NOT launch a Shahab-3 missile, able to reach Israel.

It was an older missile that was out of production, newsroom sources tell DRUDGE.

And a video showing what appeared to be many missiles being fired — is actually one missile, filmed from different angles!

NYT’s Bill Broad is planning to quote military insiders.

Developing…

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/iran-missile-test- bluff-old-rockets-bogus-video

Fbrosius
"Ryan and TS; the tougher question is this; why did the Carter Administration turn there backs on Iran back in 1979 in the first place?"

It depends on who you ask. One group of thought claims that Carter did it because of his belief in human rights. The other, more cynical group believes that Carter did it because he is a globalist who did it for the CFR and the NWO.

In the past I used to think that this was a mistake by Carter. The Shah's days were numbered simply because most Iranians didn't support him and when his air force went over to the radicals it was over. The rest of the Armed Forces followed suit.

Over the years I've learned more about Iran and have concluded that we have to go back into time to 1953 and the overthrow of Mossadegh. As an old cold warrior I accepted the popular view that Mossadegh was a communist who would hand over Iran to the Soviets, therefore, by Cold War standards his overthrow was a good thing for the West. I now know that he was a nationalist and his real crime was nationalizing the oil companies. I believe that this was one of the reasons for all the screaming about Saddam as well.

You really have to go back to the beginning of things to get a handle on this stuff. The neocons are some of the worst ones about starting in the middle of history when it suits their purposes and their abuse about WWII, 1938, Hitler, ad nauseam is a case in point. If WWI had been settled by a negotiated peace instead of the infamous Treaty of Versailles you would have no Hitler and no Lenin. When the British and their supporters over here maneuvered the US into declaring war that settled that.

Iran
U .N. nuclear watchdog head Mohamed ElBaradei told Al-Arabiya television that Iran could have a nuclear weapon within six months. "If Iran wants to turn to the production of nuclear weapons, it must leave the NPT, expel the IAEA inspectors, and then it would need at least, considering the number of centrifuges and the quantity of uranium Iran has...It would need at least six months to one year," ElBaradei said. When asked "If Iran decides today to expel the IAEA from the country, it will need six months to produce [nuclear] weapons?" He answered, "It would need this period to produce a weapon, and to obtain highly-enriched uranium in sufficient quantities for a single nuclear weapon."


BTW
I am not a neocon. I thought invading Iraq was a huge mistake. Iran was then and still is the bigger threat. Iraq maintained a balance of power.

The US should not dictate policy to Israel! Pat is a hypocrite.


So how come the real power in this country will not get us energy independence? We are funding the war against ourselves. Iran has been working for quite a while to establish strongholds in Central/South America. Working with Chavez, both of them backed by Russia and also China.

Been following that Buck?

Could it be the the real power in our country wants to break the might of America in order to get their "New World Order".

The bible also predicts there will be one world gov. We will get the NAU with the next president no matter who wins...it will probably be Obama. He doesn't even like our country or Americans. I believe when the US goes down we will take the world with us. Israel becoming a nation just set the timer for the end.


“There is a need for a fundamental rethinking of how we conduct world affairs,” he added. “And Obama seems to me to have both the guts and the intelligence to address that issue and to change the nature of America’s relationship with the world” Brezinzski

In other words, America just another province in the New World Order.

Righteousness exalts a nation. Judgment is coming to America.

anna
israel has been dictasting policy for America in the me for how many decades now?

We need to put israel on a tight leash and make them heel or we might as well cut them loose and let them run in front of a speeding garbage truck.

I'd opt for the latter as we don't need them nor their enemies. After all, with friends like israel, who needs enemies?

when will you be moving to your beloved israel?

Saul
israel has been dictasting policy for America in the me for how many decades now?


Good Job!


It won't be over if Israel is destroyed. You are a fool if you think that.

Our next president will be a quasi Moslem. I am sure that will turn out well for the Republic.


But hey...don't worry be happy.

My sins are covered by the blood of Christ, how about you?

Buck

Are you capable of being civil?

I am not a neocon.

I think the US should butt out of Israel's business.

Pat says we shouldn't get involved and then says we should dictate what they should do in regards to Iran. So which is it?

I do think it is stupid to think this will be over even if we do throw Israel under the bus. That is completely ignoring what is going on with Islam. Read Steyn's "America Alone".


And it is just stating a fact that Israel will stand until the second coming. So ALL of our what if's do not amount to a hill of beans. National deliverance will come for Israel. Unfortunately 2/3 will die in the Tribulation before they accept and recognize their Messiah.


And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Zech 13:6

You think it will bode well for America to have a quasi Moslem president? There is no chance in hell McCain can win. He will give use the NAU anyway.

BTW, the nutjob is right at our back door...that happens to be wide open.


No More Blank Checks
Israel has never and will never start a war. Mr. Buchanan misses an important point, namely that the Israelis will annihilate the Iranian nuclear and/or missile sites, like they did in Iraq and Syria more recently, without starting a war. Only Mr. Bush needs to go to war to eliminate WMDs, The Israelis are much more efficient.

Romans 11
...After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, THE NATURAL BRANCHES, BE GRAFTED INTO THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE!

All Israel will be saved

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited; Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come it. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

And this is my COVENANT (promise) with them when I take away their sins.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, FOR GOD’S GIFTS AND HIS CALL ARE IRREVOCABLE


The church age may be about over IMO. One world gov is right around the corner. You can read how that story ends in the bible as well.



Have a GREAT day Buck!

Bush Pulls out of Iraq?

U.S. Considers Increasing Pace of Iraq Pullout

NYT-The Bush administration is considering the withdrawal of additional combat forces from Iraq beginning in September, according to administration and military officials, raising the prospect of a far more ambitious plan than expected only months ago.

Such a withdrawal would be a striking reversal from the nadir of the war in 2006 and 2007.

One factor in the consideration is the pressing need for additional American troops in Afghanistan, where the Taliban and other fighters have intensified their insurgency and inflicted a growing number of casualties on Afghans and American-led forces there.

More American and allied troops died in Afghanistan than in Iraq in May and June, a trend that has continued this month.

Although no decision has been made, by the time President Bush leaves office on Jan. 20, at least one and as many as 3 of the 15 combat brigades now in Iraq could be withdrawn or at least scheduled for withdrawal, the officials said.

The desire to move more quickly reflects the view of many in the Pentagon who want to ease the strain on the military but also to free more troops for Afghanistan and potentially other missions.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/bush-pulls-out-of- iraq

Dump McCain
McCain can't make a headline in a newsroom!

Even here on WND 99% of the 2008 election stories are about who? Snob-bama!

Just listen to McCain give a speech. You need a bottle of No-Doze to stay awake.

Obama will squeeze 75,000 Obamies into Invesco Field while McCain can't pay enough fans to fill the seats behind the podium at a photo-op!

I don't mind losing but I want to go down fighting and McCain isn't fighting - he's tanking like a ringer in a fixed fight.

If you don't want to live under a Snob-bama idiocracy, then...

Dump McCain Now!

Anna
Speaking for myself, I never took you for a neocon. I figured you were a dispensationalist. I will say this for you, you do recognize the evil of the NWO, only failing to realize the criminals who run Israel are a part of the NMO cabal.

"The US should not dictate policy to Israel! Pat is a hypocrite."

How so? Is it alright for the Israelis and their lobby of traitors and useful idiots to dictate policy to the US?

"Could it be the the real power in our country wants to break the might of America in order to get their "New World Order"."

Yes, you would be correct here and the best way to do it is to bankrupt the nation through debaching the currency and engaging in unnecessary war, things that are going on right now.

"Righteousness exalts a nation."

I've always like that from Proverbs and yes, again I think this is the case. This nation had several chances to save itself in recent elections in the form of Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul, but the people in their ignorance, hubris and stupidity picked candidates that reflected their own worthlessness-- Clinton and Bush, not to mention the professional criminal class that makes up the legislature.

"Judgment is coming to America."

I'm hoping I'm wrong here, but it looks like this train may be pulling in the station, war or no war, thanks to Wall Street.

"And it is just stating a fact that Israel will stand until the second coming. So ALL of our what if's do not amount to a hill of beans."

See? You yourself have presented a great reason to stay the hell out of this mess. God's will. I'd like to think that I am a little more practical, but any port in a storm.


Edward
Check your history. The Israelis, in cahoots with the British and French, started the 1956 war. My personal opinion is that they attacked Syria under the cover of the 1967 war with Egypt and Jordan.

One other thing. I don't care what bonkers Bolton or Hewitt says, no one has presented any facts proving that bombing the Israelis did last year was against a nuclear facility. The only thing that has been made is accusations.

Rayon01...
I have not been mugged by reality rather I was living it back in the late 70’s in an Air Force Command Post. What happened then and what is happening now are beginning to come together into one picture. You see Rayon01; with what you have posted and that is 100% correct sir, as to what went down and his Air Force involvement. I gave you a clue in post #128 that this story has more to it then most American People are aware of. My hat is off to you and your knowledge sir!

Rayon; it is looking more and more like the only reason that America is in business is to support Israel from the mid 70’s on, and now as we speak America is bowering money from China and others just to pay for this ME mess. A mess between the Jew’s and the Moslems and toss in a few Arabs for good measure. The end result is still the same, that war will never end, they will continue to terrorize each other and America will still be financing Israel! I for one am saying “STOP THE INSANITY” no more money for a war that is not our problem.

NWO.. or... ZION...????
Tough Question....
One other thing you brought to the table Rayon01 is this the New World Order! The first time I got to hear of that term was by President Bush Sr. and he tossed it around a lot. Back then I often questioned what that meant and could never get the same answer twice. Now we hare honored by President Bush Jr. and he is following in his fathers foot steps. He is right smack in the middle of this ME mess. It looks to me that it was more a plan than a happenstance. Rayon01 just what is the New World Order of things that both Presidents so dead set on? As I do not remember this much ME crap when we had Reagan or Clinton in office. Or is it just tied to the word Bush?

Just pointing out…..
… That I am not the only one thinking a writing that is a Hoax and just cannot be verified as ever written, pops up it’s head one more time…. SEE:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DavidRStokes/2008/07/13/ the_big_anti-semitic_lie_that_wont_go_away

“The spurious publication called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an Islamist must-read. The work tells a story that fits the pattern of long-standing prejudices. The words reinforce the visceral hatred Islamists have toward Jews.”


anna
I truly hope you are in your beloved israel when it does get wiped off the map.

We need to free America from the zionist cancer spreading thru America.

No more blank checks
I am amazed that Buchanan writes for TH. Buchanan's hatred of Israel is legendary.He wrote for "The Spotlight" a pro-Arab anti- Israel rag my father-in-law used to receive. Israel has had nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them for 20 years. They have never used them and God knows they needed them. 2 nuclear tipped missles would totally destroy Israel. Over a million Christian Israelis who are represented in the Kineset and over a million Muslem Israelis also represented in the Israeli Government would die. The Palistinians would also be wiped away. Ahmadinajad would say the Arabs gave their life for the cause. The blasts and spread of radiation would be enough too finish Israel,but not before the missles Israel has aimed at major cities in Iran and other Arab countries would be fired. This would be Arrmageddon.

no blank checks
The story of the creation of the Arab Peoples is in the Old Testament. Abraham and Sarah couldn't have children.The law of the land said Abraham could have a child through Hagar Sarah's hand maiden. She gave birth to Ishmael. Sarah gave birth to Isaac shortly after. Ishmael would beat up Isaac and Abraham had Hagar and Ishmael banished to the desert. God came to Hagar and told her not to fear as Ishmael would spawn a great people. Arabs are those people desended from Ishmael.

no blank checks
I was in Israel during the Yom Kippur War in 1973. The United States stopped Israel from striking first against Egypt when Egypt was massing for an attack in the Sinai. Israel almost was overrun. She is only the size of the State of NJ and only 10 miles wide at the narrowest point. God has given Israel victory over overwellming odds each and every time she has been attacked.

Sparky
The US did not such thing nor were the Egyptians anywhere near overrunning Israel. As far as Israel's size goes, all I can say is "t.s." The idiots who decided that would be a good place for a country in a see of Arabs are at fault, not the US. Israel isn't worth the life of one G.I.

Seeing how you attribute Israel's military successes to God, I'm that God will be more than happy to protect them from Ahmadinejad.
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