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Tuesday, July 01, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Wars of Religion Return
by Pat Buchanan
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Last week's clash between Dr. James Dobson and Barack Obama is but the latest skirmish in a war that dates back to the time of Christ. At issue: What is Christian truth? Does the true Christian put social peace ahead of his duty to make God's Law man's law?

In a speech in June 2006, Obama, citing the Book of Leviticus, which declares homosexuality an abomination, noted that Leviticus also says the eating of shellfish is an abomination and condones slavery.

Moreover, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is "a passage so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application."

"Folks haven't been reading their Bibles," said Obama.

"Even ... if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States ... whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's or with Al Sharpton's?"

Barack was saying that, since Christians disagree deeply over what is biblical truth, why fight? Let us "try to translate some of our concerns in a universal language so that we can have an open and vigorous debate rather than have religion divide us."

In Catholicism, this is the heresy of indifferentism, which holds that one religion is just as good as another and all religions can be a path to salvation. The Pew poll out last week reveals that 82 percent of Protestants believe there are multiple paths to salvation, as do 79 percent of Catholics and 57 percent of evangelicals.

A striking development. For did not Christ say, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"?

Dr. Dobson is having none of it. Tuesday, he accused Obama of "deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology."

"(H)e is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter," said Dobson. "Am I required in a democracy to conform my efforts in the political arena to his bloody notion of what is right with regard to the life of tiny babies?"

"What he (Obama) is saying here is that unless everyone agrees, we have no right to fight for what we believe."

Dobson has no small point. For in his litany of moral heroes, Barack himself selected no "can't-we-all-just-get-along?" Christians.

Indeed, Obama celebrates the Underground Railroad and the abolitionists who, to end slavery, took us over the brink into Civil War. He invokes the defiant marchers of Selma Bridge and Dr. King, who chose confrontation and tore the nation asunder rather than see segregation endure.

Obama, however, is now preaching a kumbaya Christianity where leaders who believe abortion is the killing of the innocent unborn are to set their convictions and cause aside in the name of ecumenical amity.

It is Dobson who, in his intolerance of perceived evil, seems in the tradition of the abolitionists, and Barack who appears more like the milquetoast believers of whom Christ said he would spit them out of his mouth because they were neither hot nor cold and whom Dante consigned to the deepest reaches of hell.

Does social peace require the toleration of manifest evil?

In the Roman Empire before Constantine, Christians accepted martyrdom rather than burn incense to Caesar. Thomas More went to his death rather than assent to the divorce of the Henry VIII, declaring, "I am the King's good servant, but God's first."

A disciple of Gandhi, Dr. King is celebrated as a champion of civil disobedience against the injustice of segregation. What would Obama say to massive civil disobedience by those who believe the killing of 50 million unborn children since Roe v. Wade is a greater evil than segregating folks by race in public accommodations?

Would an Obama, who hails the abolitionists and Dr. King, condemn them as divisive? Was not that the charge thrown up at Dr. King?

The divide between Dobson and Barack is mirrored among many who profess the Christian faith. It split the Baptists. It is splitting the Episcopalians. A traditionalist minority has severed communion over female bishops and homosexual marriages.

Barack has a "fruitcake interpretation" of the Constitution if he thinks it requires us to give up fighting for justice because it may be divisive, says Dobson. Here, too, he has a point.

The unbridgeable divide between the two portends a troubled future. Can Americans ever come together if we are divided in our deepest beliefs about morality and truth, where one side believes gay marriage is moral progress, the other holds it a moral outrage; where one side views abortion to be a mighty advance for women's freedom, the other sees it as legalization of mass slaughter of unborn babies?

There can be no peaceful coexistence in a cultural war because it is at root a religious war. Far into the future, Americans seem fated to face each other again and again "at some disputed barricade."

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Pat
You never addressed Barack's comments on Leviticus.

The Book of Leviticus DOES say that homosexuality is an abomination. Leviticus also says eating shellfish and pork and rabbit are an abomination (gay sex and eating pork were considered unclean). Leviticus says wearing mixed fabrics is in violation of God's Law. As is cutting your hair and cutting your beard.

HOW can christians select one of the abominations (homo-sex) and go to church and get all worked up about homosexuality AND THEN CASUALLY EAT PORK CHOPS FOR DINNER? Pork chops are against God's Law. Cutting or trimming facial hair is AGAINST God's Law.

These Laws were created by Jews 2500 years ago. Most early gentile christians (1900, 1800 years ago) simply ignored the Laws in Leviticus. Homosexuality did not carry a negative connotation at this time among gentiles (just as bacon was eaten and circumcisions were abhorred). So how are gay sex and bacon and poly-blends wrong?

What an evil little man this guy is
quotes:

In a speech in June 2006, Obama,...

Moreover, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is "a passage so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application."

"Folks haven't been reading their Bibles," said Obama.
----
What this enemy of God, the Gospel and America is saying is, the bible is irrelevant.
I despise the sound of his lying mouth and count him as the enemy among us.
Bring us together?
Not from here to eternity, as I despise everything this devil stands for.




Sharpton's Christianity
One thing you can be absolutely sure of, is that I would much rather go to hell than spend one hour in either Sharpton's or Wright's Christian Church!

Will
Jesus came to fulfill the law which, with His sacrifice (death and resurrection) was replaced by the new covenant. Thus we have the old and the new (testaments/covenants/laws).

The daily requirements of the law ceased to have any effect (were no longer needed in light of Christ's sacrifice). Sin, however, remained and still needed to be addressed daily which Jesus and the Apostles did. So, unfortunately for you, shellfish was in but sexual perversion was still out.

Hence, dietary rules and other such aspects of the old law no longer apply.

These matters are clear to all those who study the Word with an inclination toward God's will rather than their own.

Mahatma-mama
It's obviously creative selectivity if you ask me. WHERE in your bible does it say homosexuality is a sin and masterbation is a sin and pork eaters are suddenly off the hook? Ask a jew. A recent groundbreaking Pew Forum on Religion esearch poll showed that jews, by a huge majority, 79%, feel that "homosexuality is a way of life that should be accepted by society". (Of Evangelical Protestants, only 26% agreed with this statement; a majority, 58%, of Catholics agreed with this statement; only 27% of Muslims agreed & 24% of Mormons). Yet, though Jews largely accept homosexuality, many still observe diety Laws such as not eating pork; meats containing blood or fat.


By the way. Let's not spin fairy tales. Jesus died, true. But there was no "resurrection". That is poetic embellishment. Wish-fullfilment. There is no coming "Rapture". Separate truth from poetic license. Jesus lived a life and died on the cross (a common form of the death penalty) next to a couple thieves. But the virgin births and walking on water and Second Coming hopes are FICTION. Added to the story by early christians. Celebrate the man if you'd like, but scrape off the story's supernaturalism. Why is cheap magic needed (turning water into wine) to appreciate the Jesus philosophy of love and forgiveness?

"LET US TAKE INVENTORY !!".RONALD REAGAN


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9sgAKp-IJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IleiqUDYpFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5cEhtge_BE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IleiqUDYpFQ

RONALD REAGAN ON ABORTION
IN HIS OWN WORDS !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo7WTBlo86s

OBAMA MARXIST LEFT HAVE AN AGENDA !!

It is they who wish to legislate morality by demanding and changing the laws to allow men to marry men and women to marry women. Marriage is a Divine Sacrament ordained by almighty God. Anything different from the traditional male and female union is absolute blasphemy to the HOLY SPIRIT.. Personally, I would prefer to leave it up to the states but as I understand the militancy of the extreme left...they plan on testing the California model in courts throughout the land. We cannot sit idly by while forces of evil are conspiring to alter this Holy Sarament before God which is to defile the original intent of the main purpose of which is meant to carry on and preserve the culture and our species as a people. We should therefore seek to sactify this most Holy of ceremonies by seeking to ratify and pass a Constitutional amendment to anchor this right in the body of our Constitution and Laws to spell out its original intent.

On the other hand, Abortion is very simply
genocide and murder which is already contrary to the laws of our land if one goes by our Constitution which simply means that Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional and should be overturned.

Dobson is Correct in his assessment...I do wish that Dr James Dobson and Dr Charles Stanley could be part of a search committee to assist John McCain in looking for a qualified candidate which would be acceptable to the Social and Traditional Conservatives...but since he is a CFR and Rockefeller Man I do not think he will and Dobson has already stated he cannot vote for John McCain. McCain refuses to reach out to Evangelicals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_5Z9RD1SAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kMxTa_tN5Y

WE ARE SCREWED !!

After exchanging some emails with a friend in the Ron Paul Campaign...I have given it some thought and come to the conclusion that none of what McCain or Obama stands for is going in the direction our country needs to be headed in...I am therefore working within the Republican Party for Change.

In addition, Short of a miracle on the part of McCain...only because he is Prolife...I will be voting for the Libertarian Nominee until we can get enough Constitutionalist Conservatives to come back to the fold of the Republican Party.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO IS TO PRAY FOR A MIRACLE !!

Not one of Pat's best
The election will be decided on the nitty-gritty of peace and war and economics, not theology.

The things "social conservatives" say they prioritize do not interest most Americans enough to make them decide which lever to pull.

Probably they never did, but they certainly don't amid the multiple crises of 2008.

This has always been a secular republic in which faith has been a private and voluntary affair, and it ain't gonna change to suit the GOP in four months' time.

If Obama wins, it won't be because of his church affiliation but because enough conservative Americans are tired of what has become of their country on Bush's watch, and do not believe McCain is different enough, except in ways (war on Iran, Amnesty for peons) that would make things even worse.

The closest they will get to religion is to say: "Obama is the devil we don't know. Better him than that angry, tongue-tied old goat who wants to annoy every Muslim in the Middle East and make gas cost $12."

It is absurd that cartoon characters such as Hagee and Dobson, Jackson and Sharpton, should have any salience whatever in a mature democracy.


Harvard Messiah from Chicago
Barack Obama is the new Messiah and we should all accept Him and worship Him because He will strike the earth and millions of gallons of oil will spurt out and the economy will sing again after He has chased the Wall Street speculators from the Temple.

It's the 21st Century but we still have a plethora of fools with us. It's the 21st Century but we still have millions who belive in the Pied Piper leading us to the Promised Land--with the exception of millions of unwanted babies.

What fools these mortals be.

Christianity is not about law
Love trumps law. The heart of Christianity is love. Any Christian leader who uses the law to make another child of God feel unloved is the one distorting scripture. The practice of focusing on specific sin is unholy. It is called legalism. It is what the Pharisees did.
Our famous religious leaders who are all about political organizing and creating division, who manipulate scripture for political maneuvering are misusing their tax exempt status and are abusing their positions of trust. I do not recognize their religion, but I know it is not Christian. They crave attention and our media gives it to them. Greed and power is at the core of their religion.

Will
Always drags in Scripture out of context. Will, have you ever read Mark 7:19 where Jesus declared all foods clean? How about Rom. 1 where homosexual behavior in male or female is condemned? As for the laws of fabrics and hair cutting, and all other Levitical ceremonial laws - laws which set Israel apart as holy to God - were given ONLY to the nation of Israel and no one else. Scripture is clear on that.

Homosexual behavior, contrary to your made-up assertion, has always carried negative connotation in the general public. Just because wealthy or the upper crust played the homosexual game, that doesn't mean it was ever accepted in the general populace. Homosexual behavior is by NATURE perverse and deviant. Don't trot out the canard about some animals in the wild - people are not animals. If you base human behavior on what animals do, then start eating your young!

HOSEA 4:1
...My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge

NEW TESTAMENT CONFIRMS OLD TESTAMENT CONDMENATION AGAINST SAME SEX PRACTICES

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves....(27)And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor ABUSERS OF THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND,

1Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every MAN have his own WIFE, and let every WOMAN have her own HUSBAND.

1Timothy 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, BEAR CHILDREN, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

NEW TESTAMENT ABOLISHES OLD TESTAMENT DIETARY RESTRICTIONS

Mark 7:18,19 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him...Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

1Timothy 4:1,2,3,4 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils...Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth... For EVERY CREATURE OF GOD [is] GOOD, and NOTHING TO BE REFUSED, if it be received with thanksgiving:


Sorry
Condemnation*

God and Country
Debate over issues is good. Either side is wrong. Stop making everything personal. I believe in God and country but firmly believe in the separation of church and state. One persons freedom is someone else's cause. If you do not believe in abortion you can try to talk people out of doing it. What really annoys me is the lecturing on family values yet we allow businesses to open on the sabbath. We need one day for family.

Little will
For an unbeliever you use a lot of Bible to 'prove' your points.

Then, instead of saying, "I just don't believe" what it says" you invent your own story and 'say that is believable.' You do the very things you accuse the writers of the Bible as doing.

Sounds to me like someone is confused and I don't think it is the Bible.

MANIFEST EVIL
Buchanan, like those before him, believes he is qualified (directed by God?) to state what is manifest evil. Those like him consider what they believe is 100% right, if others believe even slightly differently, they are wrong. This is not a major problem until they want to force others to believe/act as they do. Thus, have religious wars come and gone over the centuries. Persuading is one thing forcing is another. Forcing crosses the line Jesus set up, i.e., to love one another. If someone is morally wrong, God will handle it for eternity.

Religion is a Lousy Basis for Law
Religion, by its nature, is based on unprovable assertions; that is, on faith. You cannot "prove" a religious assertion.

Religious doctrine is neither true nor false; it is simply arbitrary. Thus, religious doctrine is quite possibly the worst basis on which to establish law.

Usually, over time, the more extreme and ridiculous religious doctrines disappear with an embarrassed shrug. You will notice no one in Israel--the Jewish State--is stoning homosexuals or adulterers, or punishing the weaving of cloth with two or more types of thread, or the planting of crops with more than one type of plant in the same field.

If you want to pass a law, you need to appeal to reason, not religion.

Pew Poll
Great column, as usual. As an evangelical Christian the Pew poll gives some rather startling results but I just have one question for the pollsters, How did they determine who was an evangelical? Any thinking individual has to question the results from this poll because they are completely out of sync from the beliefs on the evangelicals I know. I can give myself any label I wish and who is to question it? After all, Obama calls himself a Christian.

Evangelicals place their faith in the fact that Jesus is Lord. He is the Son of God who was born of a virgin, was crucified and shed his blood for the remission of OUR sins, and was ressurected from the dead to walk on the earth and eventully ascend unto heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. He said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." There is no other way to eternal life ecept through Jesus Christ. For an evangelical the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. If any word of the Bible is in question then all of it is in question. You either believe it or you don't. There is no middle ground. This is something for which there is no compromise.
The Bible presents absolutes and that scares some people who wish to be totally in charge.

Who are we to say?
One poster wrote, "I believe in God and country but firmly believe in the separation of church and state. One persons freedom is someone else's cause. If you do not believe in murder you can try to talk people out of doing it."

Actually I changed one word, but the principle is the same.

Wow!
If the story of religious nuttiness continues as it has since the bronze age, we'll end up with a separate faith for each person on the planet. Grow up, all of you, and see religion for what it is, nonsense.

Paolo:
“Religion, by its nature, is based on unprovable assertions; that is, on faith. You cannot ‘prove’ a religious assertion.”

Every idea starts with an unprovable assertion: “We hold these truths to be self-evident ...” How do you prove that “all men are created equal and that they have unalienable rights”? But that’s the basis for equal treatment under the law. But my favorites: Multiculturalism, diversity, and tolerance, according to academia, are all good. Where’s the proof? These are the religious beliefs of secularism that we must all bow down and worship.

Religion In Politics
Obama's religious inclinations, whatever you call them, are front and center. He mixes the Gospels with a call to social action -something progessives did from the 1880s through 1920. It is quite different from Bush's as Bush's inclinations are more personal and eschatological (however, Bush at time does swin in these waters as well).

In the old Catholic dispensation, one need only concern ones self with his own immediate family and neighbor (by neighbor I mean like the one across the Street and not across the world). Charity begins at home. A Mother of 5 does hundreds of acts of mercy and charity a day (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, admonishing the ignorant). Obama's ideas on social justice clearly mirror both modern (or post modern)Protestant and Catholic thought. Fighting "World Hunger", Population Control (abortion/contraception), Fighting Global Warming (a new form of penance), Fighting Racisms, AIDS, etc.. are the new virtues.

Obama's ideas are collective (use of force for the reluctant), socialistic (you will do them whether you like it or not), and require a centralized goverment to accomplish.

Obama and his Social Apostles naturally exempt themselves from thier Brave New World. Being lawyers and Limonsine Liberals they have no intentions of changing thier own lifes.

Conflict and Division - GOD'S PLAN
Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword [division]." Matthew 10:34

To assume that only men, not God, cause division is to create the logical, but false and un-Scriptural, assumption that men can always achieve unity. Such efforts may produce an ecumenical and superficial sense of 'togetherness', but only at the expense of truth, integrity, and genuine pneumatological union.

Christ's prayer in John 17 is clearly not for the former, but rather the latter form of unity.

The fundamental reason behind the current conflict and division is that God's spiritual New Creation is being assembled, in part on Earth, before the Old Creation is fully dismantled.

"Now you, brothers (genuine Christians), like Isaac, are children of promise. At that [ancient] time the son born in the ordinary [Old] way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit [New]. IT IS THE SAME NOW." Galatians 4:28,29.

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Matt. 11:15

Federalism and Religion
Under a properly constructed Federalist society, local laws would reflect the religious customs of the towns, villages, and neighborhoods of the states. As long as the states did not encroach upon the `enumerated rights of the citizens, the states could do as they please. In this set-up the religious instincts and religious energies would be expended in the making of laws that reflect the local morality. The Federal goverment would have no say-so other than to ensure that all citizens rights are protected per the original intent of the Constitution. This frame work is of course what we had until very recently.

Liberals talk about diversity, but what they really want is conformity, especially conformity of thought. We see that here with many of the liberal posters at TH. It bothers them to no end thinking that there is a blog dedicated to things they despise.

A truely Federalist society is a very diverse society. A century ago it wasn't difficult to find a midwestern city filled with different relgious groups living peacefully (in comparison to what Europe suffered it was peacefull); in my hometown, Jews lived in the Southside; just north and west were the various catholic neighborhoods; african americans (mainly pentacostal) lived in the near northwestside. Yes, there was plenty of prejudice but the Constitution does not control ones thoughts. Right when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was made into law, liberals came through with a sludgehammer and began to file suits against prayer in our local public schools. They also out of "charity" began to destroy the African American nieghbor hoods through new zonng laws, busings, the closing of the urban neighborhood schools, and tax increases. The lawyers through the courts took over.

who said it
"The break-up of united western Christendom with the coming of the Reformation was by far the most important thing in history since the foundation of the Catholic Church fifteen hundred years before.

"Men of foresight perceived at the time that if catastrophe were allowed to consummate itself, if the revolt were to be successful (and it was successful), our civilization would certainly be imperiled, and possibly, in the long run, destroyed.

"That indeed is what has happened. Europe with all its culture is now seriously imperilled and stands no small chance of being destroyed by its own internal disruption; and all this is ultimately the fruit of the great religious revolution which began four hundred years ago."

Hilaire Belloc "Characters Of The Reformation" Written in 1936.

Dark Matter and Mahatma-mama

Broke it down nicely.


The "new world order" is right around the corner. One world gov will set the stage for the anti-christ and the final conflict is close. Bring it on!

I am looking forward to the new earth and new heaven. The earth uncorrupted by sin and decay sounds good to me.

I highly recommend Randy Alcorn's book, "Heaven".



Can you hear the sighing in the wind? Can you feel the heavy silence in the mountains? Can you sense the restless longing in the sea? Can you see it in the woeful eyes of an animal? Something’s coming…something better. Joni Eareckson Tada

I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find till after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others to do the same. C.S. Lewis




THIS COLUMN WAS A ONE STAR WASTE

.....Obama has no religion he is a Marxist/Atheist as was his radical mother who began his indoctrination ...all this talk of Bibical passages spouted by a Marxist whose aim is to distract and deceive only serves his purpose .....COLOSSUS

Will

Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. Jn 3:19


For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written;

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. 1Cor: 18-25


There was only one who had the power to lay down his life and to take it up again of his own will. He won't be coming back as the sacrificial lamb...and HE will have the last word.


No eye has seen, no ear had heard, NO MIND HAS CONCEIVED what God has prepard for those who love him. 1Cor 2:9


I sincerely hope you come to know him!


Its all words, yours included
Paolo writes:

- 8:34 AM EST
Religion is a Lousy Basis for Law
Religion, by its nature, is based on unprovable assertions; that is, on faith. You cannot "prove" a religious assertion.
-----
ts:
Depends on which religion it is.
There is plenty of proof religion is the Foundation for all law.


----
Paolo writes:
Religious doctrine is neither true nor false; it is simply arbitrary. Thus, religious doctrine is quite possibly the worst basis on which to establish law.
----
ts:
The Declaration of Independence has been a very strong Foundation.
"Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,"

------

Paolo writes:
If you want to pass a law, you need to appeal to reason, not religion.

=========
ts:
Reason and religion are inseparable.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —

Well, Pat is Back
Despite his meanderings into the realm of innanity when discussing WWII, here we have Pat Buchanan at his finest.

If the Civil War was fought over the evil of slavery, what will the consequence be for abortion? This next struggle won't result in state against state, but neighbor against neighbor and father against son. Even if people don't turn to guns to resolve the disagreement, it will be quite acrimonious.

I'm not sure how it will start or play out, but trouble is around the corner.

And to you religious ignoramuses: Jesus and his first/second-generation followers had no difficulty terminating dietary restrictions like shellfish; had he/they wanted to change homosexual restrictions I would presume it would have been just as easy to do. How about you read about Paul's and the Church Father's teaching/invective on pederasty and the like. (And, no, it wasn't because they didn't get "married".)

Ex-Wyo
You've GOT to be kidding, right?

You should read the Sermon on the Mount much differently, according to your logic. What do you mean "blessed" are the peace makers? Who's he to say what is blessed or cursed, since what one does is just a shade of gray.

What you have in the Sermon is a clarion call for a higher morality, nobility, and goodness. What we have in the Sermon is a teacher with the outright audacity to declare some behaviors better than others--some of deserving special Heavenly approval than others. How the heck would He know? How dare he!! That is in the same spirit as saying, which Jesus does say, unless, of course you know better, that He is the Way to the Father. Both the Sermon and his claims of salvation coming through Him are "arrogant" nonsense or true. Why don't you be consistent and call it all crap.

But of course you have absolutely no shame or humility: you'll be the judge of Jesus and his words!!

Way overdue
"Dr. Dobson is having none of it. Tuesday, he accused Obama of "deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible"

That's right Pat and Jim, Obama is shifting the focus from things Jesus never mentioned, like homosexuality and abortion, to things he discussed and acted on constantly, like greed and public health. It's way overdue.

Ex-Wyo - I think Jesus chose his words very carefully. "I am the way, the truth, and the life" He didn't say "I am the club, the symbol, and the name." Following the "way" seems to get one to heaven. His descriptions of judgment day, "I was hungry but you did not feed me..." seem to confirm this.

Dark Matter and others - Yes there are NT changes on food and hair length but none on fabrics, tattoos, and mentral habits. You're still cherry picking on your compliance with Leviticus.

I respect --
I respect everyone's right in America to worship as they please. Therefore I am glad that I worship only the Viking Gods of my ancestors. We can't go to hell because we don't have one. I wish everyone luck with their chosen religion and I don't get into arguments about whose religion is best. To each his own.

We have lost our way.
The kind of supernatural events (Miracles) or "cheap magic" as it has been stated in this thread, that happened during the time Christ walked the earth were to give authority to Himself and His words. Once the Word was perfected including witnesses established, these types of miracles ceased. Any one that honestly and diligently looks at the life of Christ Jesus will find that He does not leave you with the option of just believing Him to be a great "philosopher" of love and forgiveness. This false teaching was been being fought against as far back as the days just following the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. It is a battle we fight against principalities and powers in heavenly places. They transform themselves into seemingly beautiful angels of light and truth. The warnings throughout scripture are clear. Christ Jesus was much more than the sticky gooey sweet passive philospher the devil would want us to believe. The ultimate goal of these false prophets is to strip Christ Jesus of His divine nature. If Christ Jesus did not rise from the dead truly our faith is in vain. There is no other option. He then was just another mad man who's teachings we should disregard. Sorry fellas but there still exists ABSOLUTE TRUTH no matter how deparately you manipulate scripture to avoid having to face the fact that you are a wretched sinner in desparate need of a Supernatural Savior. To bring Christ Jesus down to your level so that you can be your own god has been and still is mans ultimate condition apart from Christ Jesus. To equate Christ Jesus with such as we is one of the vanities God spoke of in His third commandment. Those of you who truly believe know that it is giving your body as a living sacrifice rather than just to intellectually ascend to a belief in Christ Jesus. Those of you who do not believe should look around you. Your reward is with you even today.

What a laugh
Ex-Wyomingite giving us the definitive exposition of John the Apostle's motivations.

Ex, believe me, you don't have a clue.

Gospel of John
Was not written a 100 years after Christ. It is a first person account by the "disciple whom Jesus loved".

I love it
When people quote Leviticus to criticize those who believe homosexuality is wrong always quote the eating and purity laws. They very seldom read all Leviticus 19 which also condemns chid sacrifice, adultery, incest, bestiality etc. No pro gay activists quote these verses as being irrelevant. No only the verses that condemn homosexuality are criticized. If we throw out the verses against homo then none of the other verses are relevant either. Also the verses about pork, shellfish, and clothing were for the Jews to separate them as God's chosen.

Hey Pat,
Thanks for summing up the culture war with your quote as follows:

"The unbridgeable divide between the two portends a troubled future. Can Americans ever come together if we are divided in our deepest beliefs about morality and truth, where one side believes gay marriage is moral progress, the other holds it a moral outrage; where one side views abortion to be a mighty advance for women's freedom, the other sees it as legalization of mass slaughter of unborn babies?

There can be no peaceful coexistence in a cultural war because it is at root a religious war. Far into the future, Americans seem fated to face each other again and again "at some disputed barricade."

No question, a house divided against itself cannot stand.........




Law
Will, and others seem continually confused by the Bible.

The OT Laws are either Ceremonial--given to Hebrews for Ceremonial time,now obsolete, but still having principle that is brought to bear in Christian worship. Civil--for their government, Also obsolete, but again, the principles of respect for others property, are brought to bear on our own civil laws.

And finally Moral. Explained more fully by Christ, and "written" on our hearts. You know what they are.

Study it yourselves, do some research and see if you can figure out where Shellfish falls and where Homosexuality falls and see what is true for today.

Obama clearly lacks understanding of Scripture. If he doesn't understand it, he has no business bringing it to bear in his speeches.

chatty
I love it when conservatives point to Leviticus for the anti-gay laws and then, when asked about other Leviticus laws, mention to some imaginary clause that relegates the rest of the laws to a "ceremonial" status. Then they point to how Romans says homosexuality is "unnatural" but, when informed that homosexuality is actually quite common in nature, tell us we need to be above nature.

You will be judged in the way you judge. I hope I'm not held accountable to the laws of Leviticus.

Ex-Wyoming
"Well, we know "John" said it, though that gospel was written almost a century after Jesus lived and died and does not repeat in any of the earlier synoptics. We also know "John" was engaged in a political struggle attempting to evangelize the Greek-speaking Hellenized Jews"

Ex-Wyoming,
You are succumbing to the deconstructionalists temptation. Either you accept the Gospels as being the inspired revalation of God, or you don't. The famous Frankfurt School of textual criticism takes into account all of those things you did when reading an ancient text (pyschology, politics, sociol-anthroplogical), and when they are done the reader is convinced that the Gospels are nothing more than a product of Man's artiface.

BTW, St John wrote his Gospels about 50-60 years after Christ died.He was the youngest Disciple (probably no more than 17 when Christ died) and outlived the other Disciples. He was also Mary's care-taker. One of St John's closest disciples was St Poly-Carp, who became a famous evangelist. Poly-Carp not only knew John, but also many of the other Church Fathers as well as St Mary.

You should never judge one Gospel against another.

Glenn Chatfield
"Don't trot out the canard about some animals in the wild - people are not animals. If you base human behavior on what animals do, then start eating your young!"

A number of things:

1. People are animals

2. It's not just animals in the wild that exhibit homosexual behavior but also animals in captivity.

3. I don't know of anyone who bases what they do on what other animal behavior is. Though humans and other animals, not surprisingly, share many behaviors.

History Lost to Paolo
The left has largely succeeded in deleting decades of history, when religion rather than secular humanism was the guiding force. Poalo needs to go back to Blackstone's Commentaries on the law, which was taught to ALL law students in America from approx. 1803 to the 1950s. In Vol. 1, section 2, which discusses the origin of law, it states: (1) God created man; (2) God gave men a code of ethics, also called Natural Law, to promote the happiness of men; (3) Natural Law is superior to the laws of man and any man-made law contrary to Natural Law is invalid. Nearly ALL of the founding fathers shared this view. But leftists like Paolo simly refuse to read and understand US history. More importantly, they are completely ignorant regarding the nature of God and man.

Is Obama really a Christian?
Obama is for abortion - even worse - partial birth abortion. He even voted for a bill that stated that if somehow a child survived an aborted birth, it is OK to starve the child to death. The real question regarding Obama is how he can state that he is a Christian and be for murdering innocent babies - which is exactly what partial birth abortion is!!

After listening to him over these many months I have come to the conclusion that Obama is nothing more than a power-hungry, socialistic, and pandering politician. He certainly is not a Christian given his voting record on abortion!

If elected, Obama's prime objective will be that of rewarding the atheist, George Soros and similar ilk including the liberal media who are giving $millions in free and favorable coverage, and all those who have helped him raise $millions in their attempt to foist this, the most liberal socialist and inexperienced senator, on America. They are the only ones he will pay allegiance.

There are no observers in this War,
"Who ever is not with Me is against Me."

Words of the LORD JESUS CHRIST

Cam
"homosexuality is actually quite common in nature, tell us we need to be above nature."

Tell me, Cam. Which is more "natural." To eat like a dog and woof down my food, coming up for only for air? To eat with my own hands, natural tools? Or to sit at a table with a knife and fork and chew my food carefully, and swallow before engaging in conversation?

Civilized society has accepted standards of behavior that defy and tame our "natural" bent.
We don't always look to nature for direction on how to do a thing. Sometimes we look to nature for how it's NOT to be done.

Furthermore,the human body, male and female, is clearly formed and shaped for the convergence of male and female. Deny this if you like, but you lie to yourself.

It is not freedom to give in to baser instinct and live like a dog or an animal. I do not aspire to animalistic behavior. Do you?

Which laws?
"I hope I'm not held accountable to the laws of Leviticus."

Which laws Cam do you hope to be held accountable to, and by whom do you hope to be held accountable?

Obama may be mistaken ...
Do any, ANY true Christians ascribe to Obama's torture of the WORD? [note the double meaning that puts Obama in the position of a Pontus Pilate. "Truth, what is truth?"]
His pandering to "evangelicals" may become so ridiculously obvious he might end up recruiting the whole Religious Right to come out for McCain on Election Day - something McCain seems inept at doing himself.
It's just another screwball change-up for this election year. I agree with whoever said we need to pray for a miracle.

A comparison of the covenants…


That which was kept under guard by the law in the Old Covenant unfolds in the coming of Christ into great New Covenant liberty…


‘What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made…Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law…But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor’ [Galatians 3:19-25].

Now the Christian can begin to understand the surpassing greatness of the liberty where in Christ has made us free. The regenerating power of the Spirit opens the heart and applies the redemption accomplished at the cross. Grace has set us free. Because we are raised up with Christ, sin is on longer our master that we must obey. Its power over us is broken as is the power of the grave…

‘If you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—“Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of NO VALUE AGAINST THE INDULGENCE OF THE FLESH’ [Colossians 2:20-23].

Because sin originates in the heart, a renewed heart is free and no longer a slave to the corrupting power of sin. We who were dead in sin are now dead to sin. Those things that God has given for our enjoyment can be freely enjoyed because righteousness is of the heart, not in outward appearances.


In Defense of the Reformation…


Without the rediscovery of the Gospel in the Reformation there would be no America with a first amendment to loose.

For a thousand years the church had lost the message of the Gospel. Men looked inside themselves for the graces that merited salvation rather than a righteousness wholly outside of themselves. It is to Christ that one must look for salvation, said Dr. Luther, not inside oneself.

Once the religious subjectivism of the medieval church was eliminated among the Reformation countries, the energy consumed by desperately seeking and ‘earning’ salvation was turned outward, and a thousand years of intellectual, political, social, economic, and religious stagnation ended.

The Reformation gave us the Scriptures in the common tongues. The Bible was the written constitution of the church. It limited the power and authority of church leadership and made them accountable to the people. The people could now read for themselves the proper role of the clergy and the church.

The death and resurrection of Christ had guaranteed free access of all believers to God. Justification came only by grace through faith, not through baptism, nor through the mass, nor any other sacrament, and certainly not through good works.

The Reformation rebirthed the idea of the priesthood of all believers, and it became the foundation for modern political democracy; that is, the equality of all men before God and the law.

The doctrine of the priesthood of all believers destroyed the ecclesiastical monarchy and aristocracy and with them went the theological basis for civil monarchy and aristocracy. We the people under Christ became the foundation of liberty.

ex-Wyomingite
"Well, we know "John" said it, though that gospel was written almost a century after Jesus lived and died..."

In this and subsequent posts, you are attempting to give the impression that the significant number of scholars who date John this late and who doubt the first-person authorship are a majority or have consensus on their side. They do not.

EW: "Your defition of the texts being the "inspired revelation of God," means I think that all things therein are to be taken literally, word for word, contradictions and all. [This is a non sequitur.] That for me is an unsatisfying road to understanding. I have a problem already when you consider how many languages the texts have gone through just to reach Englih [sic], and then how many re-interpretations of those texts within the same language have taken place."

No wonder that you are confused - you can't get good conclusions from false premises. Perhaps someday this will be a settled matter for you - including the so-called "contradictions".

Casual Christians when Convenient....
...are like the American Jews that eat pork and are only Jewish for 3 days/year. You guys only really practice Christianity when convenient. If scripture conflicts with your lifestyle, you simply overlook the mandate or change the meaning of the verse.

How many Christian divorcees do we have on this board? Are you familiar with Jesus' words on divorce/adultery? No sin there I guess.

How many "turn the other cheek" Christians do we have on this hawkish conservative board? How does that mesh with "thou shall not kill"? No sins in war I guess.

What about "if your right arm offend thee, cut it off!"?? Where are the one-armed Christians who were following Jesus' instructions?

You guys are also quick to put words into Christ's mouth. Please show me where Jesus says he "IS GOD". Not son of God. Not like God. Not "through me". I want someone to show where he says he is the one that needs to be worshipped, instead of the Creator that he spoke frequently about.

While you're at it, please show where he wanted to create another religion instead of "I came to fulfill."

Hypocrites.

R.A.M.
Jesus never said He needs to be worshipped.

That He did accept worship is without question.

ex-Wyomingite
"There are a significant number of scholars but I made no reference to the word "majority" nor did I even hint at it."

Here's your "hint":

"And you're smarter and more knowledgeable than thousands of Biblical scholars..."

You say:

"It certainly does not jive with the personality of the man who offered up the glorious beatitudes at the Sermon on the Mount in the much earlier and more brilliant Gospel of Matthew."

All in all, I doubt that Christ himself said that, Pat, much more likely an example of a later evangelist putting words into the Messiah's mouth in order to effect a desired political result, much as many "pastors" such as some you have mentioned do today. "

You are in a pick-and-choose mode, and seem to choose which parts of Scripture to accept and which parts to discard based on your personal preference of the so-called "thousands" who agree with you. Would the date and authorship of John be relevant if your favorite sermons were in it and not in Matthew?

R.A.M.
If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

JGP..please show me where
If you read scripture, he always refers to "your Father", "our Father", "thy Father" as well as references to God being "in heaven"; which of course is 3rd person.

If He was here, I think that Jesus would be very disappointed by the people who do works in His name, while completely ignoring His message of unconditional love, peace and faithful worship of the Creator.

He accepted the love of the people. But, clearly believed that praise deserves to be with the Creator.

Rich D.
We can all say the same thing, as we are made in His image.

R.A.M
Subject: JGP..please show me where
If you read scripture, he always refers to "your Father", "our Father", "thy Father" as well as references to God being "in heaven"; which of course is 3rd person.

That is plainly not true. I will show you verses.

If He was here, I think that Jesus would be very disappointed by the people who do works in His name, while completely ignoring His message of unconditional love, peace and faithful worship of the Creator.

That to is plainly not true.

He accepted the love of the people. But, clearly believed that praise deserves to be with the Creator.

That is who He is...

Matt. 2:2 ...For we say his star when it rose and have come to worship Him

Matt. 2:11...They came into the house and saw the child...they bowed down and worshipped Him.

Matt. 14:33. Then those who were in the boat worshipped Him...

Matt. 28:9 When they saw Him, they worshipped Him...

John 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe" and he worshiped Him.


Matt 2:8 "Go and look carefully for the child. When You find Him, inform me so I can go and worship him as well."

Even Herod who's motive was to murder the Christ recognized that others believe Him worthy of worship.

How about You?

Christ's reality
For skeptic #5-Christ's very physical "resurrection" was witnessed by over 500 people. In any court of law, his case would be proven over and over.
The truth for all who benefit from this great country is that judeo-christian ethics and moral laws WORKS. And works like no other set of ideas ever has in the history of mankind. Judeo-Christian ethics are compatible with Western thought (unlike Islam) and together acknowledge and bless mankind with the concepts of free-will and free thought. No other faith, philosophy, or social order does this. The framework of laws of accountability allows for moral growth and decency and the elevation of mankind's worth and value.
Those committed to these ideals are understandably concerned at their erosions. You can't siphon off of these pricipals only what you want and dismiss the rest-the frame and fabric will fail and fall. It is the arrogance of self that preaches an Obamish form of Christianity-the spoiled "I can have my cake and eat it too" which underlies the benign desire for a mild and bland pseudo-christianity. Dishonesty and selfishness are at it's core

JGP
I'll pull up some verses to back up my point that there is only one Creator w/o peer or likeness. But, I want to make sure I understand your point.

Are you saying that Christ is the omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent "Creator of the universe"?

If so, I think that the crucifixtion story alone will squash that theory. Surely, He wasn't all-powerful in that story. He obviously wasn't omnipresent. Clearly, He didn't know everthing because He actually questioned God as to "why have you forsaken me?" (which also proves my point. If he was God, that meant He was questioning and forsaking Himself).

gmacoral
"I can have my cake and eat it too" which underlies the benign desire for a mild and bland pseudo-christianity. Dishonesty and selfishness are at it's core

You are being too soft. The Biblical Truth is that the culture is sinking into rank idolatry.

Romans, "They exchange the truth of God for a lie and worship and serve the creation rather than the Creator, Who alone is blessed."

JGP
Your post gmacoral proves my point.

Romans, "They exchange the truth of God for a lie and worship and serve the creation rather than the Creator, Who alone is blessed."

There is only ONE Creator of the universe. Everything else, including all men and prophets, is CREATION.

Sometime people get caught up in the beauty of God's creation and begin to worship Creation, instead of the One who created it.

R.A.M.

Are you saying that Christ is the omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent "Creator of the universe"?

YES

If so, I think that the crucifixtion story alone will squash that theory. Surely, He wasn't all-powerful in that story.


Christ willing went the cross. He chose the cross for people like me and you.

John 10:18 No one takes away from me, but I lay down of my own free will....

He obviously wasn't omnipresent. Clearly, He didn't know everthing because He actually questioned God as to "why have you forsaken me?" (which also proves my point. If he was God, that meant He was questioning and forsaking Himself).

The Godhead is a Trinity. And Christ is God incarnate.

As a man He became fully man depending on His Father.

You've proved nada.

Godhead??? Oh brother.....
"As a man He became fully man depending on His Father."

What??? You cannot be serious. Okay. Let's put it in very simple terms. If he was the all-knowing God, why did he have questions 'of God'? If He was God, there would be no necessity of asking anyone anything.

I'll also couple this with my original post. Can you show me where Jesus says that He is God?? All of his references are in 3rd person. Either we have some serious grammatical errors in the Bible, or things just aren't the way you explain.

Please clarify.

BTW, that "Godhead" reference is a very pagan polytheistic idea. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Noah and Jesus all promoted a single Creator of the universe that they worship and serve. They never used "Godhead" and surely never considered G-d to be just one of many other "gods".

R.A.M.
The likeness quote is out of proper context.

Jesus's quoting of Psalm 22 (a Messianic psalm) would have been completed by his hearers who knew Scripture from memory. Read the end of it.

Are you forgetting that Jesus was still fully God, but voluntarily emptied Himself to accomplish His mission?

R.A.M.
Not all-powerful?

Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" - Matthew 26:52-54

Rich D
I don't believe that Jesus was "fully" God. Sure, he performed miracles. Clearly, He delivered God's message. But, I don't believe Jesus was the Creator of the heavens, earth and sea and everything in between. That distintion is reserved only for G-d and G-d alone.

Now, if you are saying people simply misunderstood Christ's message and wrote it down incorrectly or the translation is bad, then you open a much larger can of worms. That would mean all of the other portions of the Bible could fall into that category. Who determines which context is correct? The Catholic Church? Some bishop somewhere with very human desires and passions?

If Jesus "voluntarily" went to the cross and died, why did he have questions to why G-d forsake him?

In the beginning was the Word...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:1-5, KJV)

@R.A.M.
"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one. "
John 10:25-30.

R.A.M.

You cannot fathom the incarnation?

Is that thought outside your 'traditions'?

If so, Ps 110:1 King David,
"The Lord said to my Lord"

Does King David have a problem?

He knows something many, particularly his people, obviously chose to ignore or 'adjust.'

OR

Psalm 45:5 - 7
..., Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..
God addressing the Son, as God

But tradition is blinding.

"...all things were created by him..."


"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:12-17, KJV)


Mike
Mike - You said, "If you do not believe in abortion you can try to talk people out of doing it."

Lets try this approach with some other actions and see if it is reasonable.

If you do not believe in drunken-driving, you can try to talk people out of doing it.

If you do not believe in rape, you can try to talk people out of doing it.

If you do not believe in creating child pornography, you can try to talk people out of doing it.

Since our civilization has deemed the above actions immoral, we do not simply rely on verbally convincing others not to engage in such actions. Rather, we created an organized set of rules prohibiting certain actions and proscribing punishments if such actions are commited.

Your line of reasoning seems to be that since people disagree on the morality of abortion, those who believe it is ok should be able to do it while those who are against it are free to try to talk them out if it. To be consistant, you would need to apply this same freedom to those who believe raping someone is ok. Should the rest of us who don't belive in rape simply be required to try to talk them out of it or are you in favor of our current system where we are allowed to make laws against immoral behavior?

In the case of abortion, every state had laws outlawing the practice at the time of Roe v. Wade. The SCOTUS ruling effectively overturned them. Clearly the court ruling did not change the morality of abortion. Prior to the courts decision, our civilization had deemed abortion immmoral based on the same starndard that we used to condemn rape, murder and a host of other actions. If you support laws against rape, murder and other crimes, you must support laws against abortion as well.

"...by whom also he made the worlds..."


"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [5] unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Hebrews 1:2-5, KJV)


the heavens are the works of thine hands


"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." (Hebrews 1:10-12, KJV)



...worshipped him that liveth for ever..


"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; [12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. [13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. [14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (Revelation 5:11-14, KJV)


Immanuel... interpreted is, God with us.


"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14, KJV)


"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matthew 1:23, KJV)


everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6, KJV)

..and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


"But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. [25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. [26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. [27] Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. [28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. [29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. [30] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: [31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (John 20:24-31, KJV)


...confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord..


"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; [11] And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11, KJV)

Amen.


RAM
RAM,
Not sure where you’re coming from or why you choose to believe that Jesus was not God. This is a central tenet of Christianity. If Jesus is not God, then his life was a lie and our faith is baseless. His claim to deity is what got him crucified. “Before Abraham was I AM.” I Am, as you may know, is the name of God. When he said these things they threatened to stone him, “because he claimed to be God.” This exchange can be found in John chapter 8.
In John1:1, we read these words, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”
Hmmm, So to understand this, “The Word” was with God in the beginning. This of course calls to mind, Genesis 1 “In the beginning God…” and “God SAID” …Words.
But exactly “who” is the Word? In John1:10, we learn more about this Word. “He was in the world, and the world was MADE through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.” Hmmm…again, who could this be? Who does it sound like?
Another clue and the final answer is revealed beginning in verse 14. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. “
Who became flesh and lived among us? Jesus. Jesus is the Word, creator God.

WE SHOULDN'T TAKE GOD LIGHTLY
It's interesting to see how the liberal-socialistas are trying to free our society from the responsibilities of our choices and actions. The Savior Jesus Christ is the only one who did that, but He requires something in return. I could go on and quote the Bible, etc., but I won't. I believe we need to be trying to do good, live as clean and be as obedient as we can, and ask forgiveness for when we make mistakes-and don't trivialize "mistakes". We also need to obey the guidance we receive. We do much good in the world and we help those less fortunate. We are also used as His "terrible swift sword" at times. Our country is not immune from the wrath of God and we receive it at times - more ofteb lately. For those who debate the meanings of scripture, have your fun. It is only as correct as a version or interpretation can provide. Tell the story enough different ways, and the meaning gets lost or diluted. Heck, the Jews interpreted the Old Testament to a point where the Savior they were looking for came in a different way than they expected. They will however, recognize Him when He returns because He will return in the capacity of defeating their enemies. It's too bad the mouthpieces of the Lord were persued, tortured, and murdered, except for John, because we have all these different religions and points of view. But have the debates if it makes you a better person and motivates you to be better. I will however, say that the behaviors such as homosexual lifestyles and the continuously protected abortion movement puts us all at risk of the wrath of God because they are abominations. Do not doubt that He will remind us who is God no matter how hard society tries to diminish Him.

Verbivore
Wow. You are reaching on several of your points. There are many biblical theologians who would disagree. There are also plenty of Jewish theologians that would disagree with your interpretation of Genesis 1. They've been translating that verse for years. Surely, they didn't and still don't say "The Word" translates to the historical Jesus Christ.)

Also, the name "I AM" is a rough english translation of one of many Hebrew names for God. That doesn't mean Jesus was talking in first person saying "I'm God". That's almost silly. Again, Hebrews have been using that name for G-d (the rough 'I AM')for thousands of years before Christ ever spoke those words.

BTW, that's not what got him killed.

Also, why two different stories of creation? I've also never read anywhere in the bible that said Jesus created the universe. Never heard a preacher say that ever.

Why didn't he ever say, "Hey, I'm G-d. I created this whole thing here. Worship me."?

ex-Wyomingite
Did it never occur to you that these so called “scholars” who filled your head with claims about who, when, and why the Gospel of John was written had their own agendas?? Did it never occur to you that a thousand years from now, if Christ hasn't returned in His glory, that these so called “scholars” and all their claims will be long forgotten? But Christ's words will never pass away. Your “scholars” are sinking sand. Christ is the rock and on Him I will stand. The Gospel of John has it 100% correct. Jesus Christ IS the the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except by Him.
You don't have to believe it, the greatest gift our Lord gives us is the right not to believe. Let me explain it to you this way, I will use mathematics. Are you familiar with Venn diagrams? This world in which we live is the intersection of two sets. One set holds things like sorrow and despair, only a minimum of good. The other set holds things like love, joy, peace, only good things. Now we both know that we don't abide in this world, this intersection of the two sets, very long. We must move to one or the other. We will not move into the set with the good unless we are in Christ. It's just that simple. Outside of Christ, we are all not much more than walking, talking mud pies. Quite complicated mud pies, but mud pies none the less. Now in Christ, we are children of the Living God and co-heirs with Jesus Christ. Not because of who we are but because of who He is.
To me, it's a no brainer. I choose Christ. I am one of the sorriest sinners to ever walk this earth, but in Him I am loved by the Father just as much as Christ is.
So my friend, be careful how you choose, remember it is YOUR choice. What will it be, sorrow, fear, pain, despair, or love, joy, peace and a multitude of wonderful blessings that we can't even imagine?
If you want the latter, you can only do it His way. Oh I pray that you will cast your way aside and choose His way.

CAM Reply#38

You said "Yes there are NT changes on food and hair length but none on fabrics, tattoos, and mentral habits. You're still cherry picking on your compliance with Leviticus."

The New Testament is silent about fabrics,tattos and so forth, thus we are under the law of grace (i.e. at liberty) about these matters. How do I know I'm at liberty? Because Paul said so in the New Testament:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage [Old Testament Law]." Galations 5:1

We are free from the law but must obey the New Testament even when its precepts overlap with the Old (and even though it seems to annoy you when it does). To follow the Old Testament regulations which were abolished is, according to Paul, even sinful:

"For if I build again the things [obeying the Law and the Prophets] which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor" Galatians 2:18

So what Law does the New Testament say a Christian is to live under? Paul again:

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Galatians 5:14

The New Testament has specifically and pointedly reconfirmed the male female sexual relationsship established in the Garden of Eden and confirmed with Noah and his wife, and family.

The New Testament specifically and pointedly abolished or changed the dietary prohibitions (the third time since the garden of Eden).

Any picking and choosing about these undeniable facts are by you alone.

HB
Skipping the usual Secularists fighting with Evangelicals to say thank you to Uncle Max for quoting Hilaire Belloc.

You may now carry-on with speaking past each other from no commonly shared premises.

Ram
Not sure what semantic games you are playing or why. And I really don’t care. I suspect you are Jehovah Witness. Whatever. Feign all the incredulity you like. You only demonstrate your ignorance of Scripture and the basis of Christianity.

From Exodus: “Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" … This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Again, John8: “…So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.”

Why do you think they crucified him?


maybe you're not listening
Or perhaps you need a new church, here’s this from Colossians 1
The author is discussing Christ Jesus, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

Religious Infighting
The many posts on this thread is an example of arguments about religion. I always heard we should not get into an argument about Religion or politics.

Sometimes reading many different authors who are not devout Christians can put doubts in your mind about the Bible being the true Word of God.

God' Message is simple. Many posters before me have stated it. If we have a personal relationship with God,we will know what he demands of His children. No more is necessary and He will accept no less.

R.A.M.


Also, why two different stories of creation?

What is this about two creation stories? There is just one, what's going on in the Genesis creation account is first the overview then the particulars. Why is that so hard to see?

I've also never read anywhere in the bible that said Jesus created the universe. Never heard a preacher say that ever.

Colossians 1 : 16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Look! See! All things were created for Him! You, R.A.M., were created for Him! If I were you, I would rejoice at this! Now you know why you are here! To be loved by Him and to love Him!

John 1 : 1- 3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Now go on and get out your Bible and read Colossians 1 and John 1 so you can never say again you never read in the Bible that Jesus created the universe.

When Elijah was in the wilderness (1 Kings 19), he found that God was not in the wind, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire, He was in the still small,voice, a whisper. R.A.M., the sovereign Lord of all creation is so close to you that you can hear Him whisper. He loves you, please turn to Him and accept His redemption.

Brainless Shadow Boxing
The Great Goofy [well , he is the spitting image]had better stick to BBQ sandwiches and not Long John Silvers.

If he is that ignorant of the truth of Christianity, God help him & us if he is elected.

As a former new age cult member who once thought the Holy Bible was a collection of fairy tales I have to say B Hussein Obama is one of those folks who "professing themselves to be wise became fools"

I would ask the dunce if he has ever had Michelle read to him from Romans Chapter One. Try that Chapter on for size, sport. Especially the verses written almost 2000 years ago saying that for the ones who choose to worship nature instead of nature's God--He will give them over to homosexuality. Gee, ya think Paul had a crystal ball or was he inspired by The One Who wrote The Book?

Sierra Club and global warming anyone? Gay Marriage free to environmental wackos.

Anyone here note that Mr Obama has the same understanding of the New Testament that Muslims have? NONE! I believe it was in Galatians that Paul said if you are not saved you are held to The Law.

Good Luck Libs.

Recovering Liberal


Part 3 of Reagan's First Innaugral


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8cEV7MMr80

Who's arguing?
Rowly

"The many posts on this thread is an example of arguments about religion. I always heard we should not get into an argument about Religion or politics."

We're teaching!

Jesus in Politics I
In the 2000 years (about) since the establishment of the Jesus cult (OK, we can call it religion; religion is a cult that has succeeded) countless people have used the chosen documents that are relevant to Christianity and have interpreted them in their own fashion, to base their pursuit of political power. That is what Pat Buchanan is doing now, that is what Dobson is doing, and that is what Obama is doing too. That is because these documents are open to a wide variety of interpretation, which has supported the various churches of Christianity. We have the various Orthodox churches, from the Greeks to the Russians, to the Armenians, the Egyptian Coptic church, the Maronites and various other Arab and North Africa churches, the Pope-centered Catholic church, which over the centuries has interpreted Scripture in all manners that afforded it temporal power, we have the Anglican church which was established so that a King can win his political power argument against the Pope, we have the tremendous variation of Protestant churches, which bloomed when the christians of Europe decided to throw over the oppressive political power of the Catholics, we have all the variety of the fringe cults, like the Amish, the Pentecostals, the Jehovah witnesses, the Shakers, and the story continues to today, with even more churches using their own interpretation of the scriptures to give legitimacy to their version of Christianity. Liberation Theology churches are one such example; the Episcopalians are splitting in front of our eyes, with their different interpretations regarding same sex marriages.

R,A,M,
"Rich D
I don't believe that Jesus was "fully" God."

Then who was he?

"Sure, he performed miracles. Clearly, He delivered God's message. But, I don't believe Jesus was the Creator of the heavens, earth and sea and everything in between. That distintion is reserved only for G-d and G-d alone."

I don't suppose that you are an orthodox Christian, then. What are you, and where do you get your theology?

"Now, if you are saying people simply misunderstood Christ's message and wrote it down incorrectly or the translation is bad, then you open a much larger can of worms."

Where did I even hint at that?

"That would mean all of the other portions of the Bible could fall into that category. Who determines which context is correct? The Catholic Church? Some bishop somewhere with very human desires and passions?"

Scripture contains more than enough to interpret itself.

"If Jesus "voluntarily" went to the cross and died, why did he have questions to why G-d forsake him?"

I explained that - first, how would you feel taking upon the whole sin of the world?; second, the agony and despair is real to His human nature; and third, read the whole Psalm to see the fulfillment and final outcome.

Jesus in Politics II
I was brought up in the Greek Orthodox church, and, believe me, there is no better way to read the New Testament, than in the original, which is not a dead language, but close enough to modern Greek for people who haven't even gone to high school to understand. Even there, there is a schismatic church, which decided in 1922 that it did not want to follow the Gregorian calendar, but stay with the Julian. They are not recognized as legitimate by the state, but they stubbornly celebrate every holiday two weeks later than everybody.
The differences in interpretation may seem small now, but at the time Christians on either side would go to war, would torture and kill those they didn't agree with. Whole armies have fought against each other, because one faction believed that Jesus had only one nature (was only divine, but not human -- Monophysites), the other faction believed that he was only human and not divine, and the other that he had both natures. The Orthodox church excommunicated the Pope and declared Catholics to be schismatics, heretics, ostensibly because they believed that the third member of the Triune deity, the Holy Spirit, emanates from the Father and the Son, (filioque), while the Orthodox obviously believe that the Holy Spirit emanates from the Father only, and not from junior. I mean, isn't that obvious? It was to me, because I was carefully taught the ONLY real possible and legitimate interpretation there can possibly be, and it was not Catholicism (when John Paul visited Greece some years ago, the first time in some 1,000 years, the road from the airport was lined with priests and monks, with signs that said "What about the Fourth Crusade?" and "Pope go home".)

Not a name
R.A.M.

"Date: Jul 1, 2008 - 6:48 PM EST Verbivore
Wow. You are reaching on several of your points."

Show us exactly how.

"Also, the name "I AM" is a rough english translation of one of many Hebrew names for God."

It is not a name and you are misquoting it. Having a name for someone gives you a degree of control and a certain level of equality and familiarity. God refuses to be named - the response was "I am who I am" and with the tenses, is also "I was who I was" and "I will be what I will be". If that was the response you got in a phone conversation, you would be tempted to hang up - in fact, the Israelites did frequently hang up, but God kept calling his children back. It took Jesus to make the relationship wholly personal,

"That doesn't mean Jesus was talking in first person saying "I'm God". That's almost silly."

You might want to rethink that.

Jesus in Politics III
Having in mind all the different varieties of interpretation, which each of the many churches of Christ insisted that it was the only real, possible, sanctioned and accepted interpretation, we should look next at what was the basis for each one of those interpretations. Did they have any new archaeological discoveries, did they have inscriptions on tombs, did they find any new papyri that gave them clearcut superiority over another Christianity version? Did they find the writings of any eyewitnesses?
No.
The one and only legitimate, inspired acceptable irrefutable source, the veritable rock on which each one of the multitudinous interpretations were based, was.....
Scripture. The word of God was based on the word of God.
Isn't it breathtaking in its simplicity? Don't you admire the mindboggling clarity of its proof?
When they asked God what was his name, he said: I AM. I am the one who exists. And when they ask God "How do I know that what you told us is true?", God (through his divinely inspired interpretors) said "Because I said so".)

And that is what each one of God's apologists and (Divinely inspired?) interpretors in Townhall is telling us; "Read the Bible; it carries its own truth; it says so itself:

"I Am the Way. Without me there is no truth. You don't need to know anything else except what I tell you. As a matter of fact, the moment you ask for any independent sources, you have walked away from the truth. Will you be like Thomas, who wanted to put his finger in the wound? Blessed are those in the future who will have not met me, but will believe in me. Never mind that I am invisible; who are you going to believe, me, or your own eyes?"

McCAIN MIXED SIGNALS/OBAMA BABY KILLERS

McCain is sending mixed signals as usual. He is by no means a "Great Communicator" like Ronald Reagan was.

Last week McCain was in Canada and now he is in Colombia, South America beating the drums of the NAFTA cartel and hopes to drag America into the clutches of the CAFTA cartel as soon as he and his Globalist friends beat OBAMA...or so he thinks.

Unfortunately, it will be a cold day in Hades before this voter could ever vote for McCain because of his Globalist aspirations or Obama because he is a Pro-Choice BABY KILLER.

Besides that, OBAMA is a flaming Marxist and McCain is a Fascist/Corporatist/Globalist.

McCain thinks its more important what foreigners
think about things than Americans...hence..he flys off to Canada and now...Colombia, South America.

Obama thinks its more important what Feminists, Gays and Lesbians believe not to mention he is a supporter of the Pro-Choice Baby Killer Machine and believes that Americans must pay a U.N. TAX.

Will
OK Will let’s look at this again
Several came close (Glenn Chatfield and Dark Matter) but leave out an important distinction. The Levitical laws were addressed to the Israelites, the Jews. However, Leviticus 18 is different. Verse 26 shows that the list of primarily sexual sins is also for the aliens among them, that is those who were not Israelites, those referred to as Gentiles in the New Testament, those not Jewish, everyone else. Not only does God find these acts detestable, but the land was defiled by the nations that practiced these acts.

Several have pointed out the many references to homosexuality and sexual immorality in the New Testament (1 Cor 6:9, Rom 1:24-32, 1 Tim 1:8-11 and also 1 Cor 5:11-13, 2 Tim 3:1-5). And many others are quick to point out that Jesus did not speak against homosexuality, but he did speak against sexual immorality (Matt. 15:19 & Luke 7:21). True, Jesus did not specifically address homosexuality. He also did not address several sexual sins in Leviticus 18 such as incest and bestiality, yet the majority of society view these acts as immoral. Jesus didn’t come to reiterate or repeat only the laws that were relevant, he wanted to correct the Israelites in their failings in understanding of the Law. And of course, ultimately to provide a way to God through his death and resurrection.

lewes
Lewes states that “love trumps law.” Not necessarily so. The Greatest command is to love the Lord your God…the second is like it, to love your neighbor… How can we love God and deny what he commands. How can I love my neighbor and not tell him that his actions will lead to his eternal destruction! Why do I take the time address some of the comments made? Trust me, it is not to prove that I am right. Christians are called to admonish other believers if they are in sin (Luke 17:3) and James 5:19-20 states that bringing a believer back to the truth covers a multitude of sins. Yes, Jesus loves everyone but that does not mean that he embraces what everyone does, even if the do the right things, but something still separates them from God. The rich ruler in Matt. 19 followed all of the laws, but his love of money prevented him from following Jesus. He walked away crying. Even though he followed the law Jesus did not go after him saying, “I am sorry you do not feel loved, you can follow me anyway.” The rich ruler allowed the love of something of this world to come between him and his love of God. For him his love was money, for homosexuals it is the lust for someone of the same sex. We all have struggles with something in our life that we desire to place above our love of God. It is the homosexuals who want to say that their longing to satisfy their desires of same-sex relations is not above their love of God, even though God said it is an abomination to him. Some argue that how can love be wrong, even when between two people of the same sex – or – would a loving God deny two people of the same sex who love each other a relationship? God’s love for us is not defined by allowing us to do what we want. I love my 5 yr old son and I do not allow him to do some things, he has boundaries. God has given us boundaries because he loves us and wants the best for us and that does not always coincide with what we want or desire.

Ex what?
It really is unbelievable how absurd you are: people voicing their opinion about your thoughts are "barking dogs". Nice bit of nonsense. I re-reread many people responding to you, including myself, and the vast majority were direct in their response to you; but of course, people used to saying whatever they want without any regard to any truth take criticism as angry "diatribes" and invective and intolerance. (You mention Christians mentioning only Christians will be in heaven. Uh, genius, who exactly said that? Nice bit of projection. And one person saying it apparently is enough for your broad brush.) You may want to stay in the safe confines of academia, where all opinions are valid and worthy of airing...whether or not they're in fact true or accurate.

Nice bit of reasoning. Best of luck to you.

Ex
It doesn't "jive", does it? It completely comports that the man who said definitively "I am the way" was just as ardent when he said "blessed are the peacemakers". It's the audacity of clarity. Truth. There is absolutely no evidence of interpolation. None. You may think it's there, others may, but it isn't there.

No evidence means just that. The onus is on you, however, to show that the plain, consistent language of the gospels is erroneous.

Good luck. It's been tried for just under 2,000 years with no luck or result. But go ahead and hop into the dust bin of people who "knew" better than the rest of us.

Jesus in Politics IV
Here is a pointed example, which both Pat Buchanan and several of the residents here in TH have debated tonite; I mean the question of the dietary laws in Leviticus, which declare that eating pork and other kinds of meat and shellfish is ABOMINABLE, using the same word used to condemn homosexual practices. Several people here have brought up a number of interpretations, that scripture puts a greater emphasis on the condemnation of homosexuality, while others have pointed out that several passages in the New Testament reiterate and emphasize the condemnation of homosexuality in the epistle to Romans (I will let you cite the passage since you are so good at it), while yet other passages show how the prohibition against eating certain kinds of meat was lifted (I think in Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews).
Well, that's fine. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.
But why? Why would Jesus decide that, although for hundreds of years the Jews could not eat pork (they still can't), now, with the new agreement, his followers can enjoy as many ham sandwiches as they want? What is going on?
But it's not only pork that is involved. Something more serious has happened. Paul says that, Jesus' followers do not need to be circumcised. WHAT!! this was a very serious matter; God specifically had demanded this of Abraham and his sons; it was the one obvious sign that they are Jews. And now?

What do you think, o great interpreters of the Scriptures? Why does Jesus say that ham sandwiches are good, shrimp cocktails are good, and you don't have to take off a piece of your sons' pen!ses? Let me know what you think.

alpha
Why do we need to play your sandbox games? Is there some point that you are trying to make?

Rich D
I am not Christian; you are. You and Scott and all the other Jesus interpreters and apologists.
You are the ones who are so good at citing chapter and verse. Me; I am the poor atheist who is trying to follow the logic that wants to base the laws for this secular republic on what a book of myths and allegories says.
I am trying to find the truth.

BTW, where in the Bible does it say that abortion is abominable? Where does it prohibit the killing of fetuses? Let me know.

A&O
For someone who believes the Bible is fairytales and allegory you don't mined stealing the name of the main Character to use as your call name.

Anyway that is the nature of the sarcastic and cynic.

Your sarcastic question: "Where in the bible does it say in the Bible abortion is abominable?"

Here numbskull: If the fetus is a person then abortion is murdering a person. Is that abominable enough for you?

But you'd probably can't at 1+1 and get two so you'd find that answer wrong.

religion and politics
I gave Pat 5 stars on this one. My personal experience leads me to believe that perhaps the Druids were closest to it: God is to be found in nature, not in Church. He is found in varying degrees in all people also. Personally I am closest to God at 6 a.m. on a beautiful morning in May on one of my favorite trout streams. Throughout man's history, more people have been killed, and more atrocities committed in God's name than for any other single reason. I think if Jesus were on earth today he wouldn't go near any established Church. The abortion and homosexuality issues have nothing to do with religion, and even less to do with faith.

For JimP
The use of the expression Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, was in use long before whoever wrote that part of the Bible referred to god as such.
As for abortions, you are the one who makes the assumption that a fetus is a person. There is nothing in the Bible on which to base such assumption.

The only place where a fetus is alluded, is an obscure passage, I think in Leviticus, that says that, if someone hits a pregnant woman and she miscarries and the fetus dies, then he must pay a fine. But if he kills the pregnant woman, then the penalty is death. One can assume with some assurance, that a dead fetus is not considered to be on the same level as a live person.
And that would make sense; from all we know about societies around the Mediterranean at that time, unwanted or deformed babies were exposed, left on a mountainside to die. The Bible again has nothing to say about abortions or infant exposure. It seems that the practice was so accepted, that neither the OT nor Jesus finds it worth the time.

For JimP
The use of the expression Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, was in use long before whoever wrote that part of the Bible referred to god as such.
As for abortions, you are the one who makes the assumption that a fetus is a person. There is nothing in the Bible on which to base such assumption.

The only place where a fetus is alluded, is an obscure passage, I think in Leviticus, that says that, if someone hits a pregnant woman and she miscarries and the fetus dies, then he must pay a fine. But if he kills the pregnant woman, then the penalty is death. One can assume with some assurance, that a dead fetus is not considered to be on the same level as a live person.
And that would make sense; from all we know about societies around the Mediterranean at that time, unwanted or deformed babies were exposed, left on a mountainside to die. The Bible again has nothing to say about abortions or infant exposure. It seems that the practice was so accepted, that neither the OT nor Jesus finds it worth the time.

Who died and made you God?

Who made up the rule that we shouldn't talk religion? (To me, Christianity isn't religion, it is truth).

God's enemies, no doubt, want people to believe that faith should be silent.

The Lord tells us to speak up, yet, we are not cast our pearls before swine(yes he called those who have contempt for the word of God, "swine").

Give out the word of God and walk away from those who attack you for it.

But DON'T stop giving it out. Paul "contended" for the faith that was once delivered to us and all Christians should do the same as they are commanded.

Of course, it is a sin attack and demean those who disagree. Speak in love, gentleness, and firmness.

:)

miscarriage
Nor is a miscarriage, resulting from accident, on the same level with the willful dismemberment and ritual killing of millions upon millions of unborn children.

"You knew me in mother's womb." "Your eyes saw my as yet unformed substance." "You knew my days before there was one of them." Words with which I'm sure you are familiar.

Do you really need these words from the Bible to know that human life is sacred? That human life is special? Do you need God to tell you that you are more than a dog? It's already written on your heart.


"ignorance"
A-O, your defense of your handle is not becoming. You have enough knowledge of Scripture to clearly know that Jesus says at least three times in Revelation, "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

If you think so little of Scripture and consider the words simply "made-up" by men, why do you try to emulate these truths?

Dark Matter
Why "Dark matter?" Are you into astronomy?

A&O
Like I said you'd find fault with 1 + 1 is two.

You're a pig. That a fetus is the potential man if not a man is nothing to you. Then you use crippled people, who are men, to substantiate your argument. You're a pig. You have no respect for life period and nothing is sacred to you.

You: "I am trying to find truth"

That’s laughable and would be pathetic if it wasn’t so deceptive.

You know too much to being trying to ‘know the truth.’ NO you’ve already rejected truth and are degenerating into a tramper and mocker of the truth you reject.

The Book to the Romans, I’m sure you don’t hesitate to mock, has you targeted,

“claiming to be wise but becoming a fool, exchanging God for things that crawl.”

If that is what you chose then go ahead, crawl with what you chose other than God.

I'd say think about it pig, but then I remembered pigs don't think.



Atheist-whOlly
"Date: Jul 2, 2008 - 3:41 AM EST Subject: Rich D
I am not Christian; you are. You and Scott and all the other Jesus interpreters and apologists.
You are the ones who are so good at citing chapter and verse."

Yes, I am and have studied hard to be able to do that, as have Scott and the others. I even teach Bible studies.

"Me; I am the poor atheist who is trying to follow the logic that wants to base the laws for this secular republic on what a book of myths and allegories says."

Oh, the "poor me" defense? You are either a moral relativist or uneducated as to where the laws of this (admittedly) secular republic were derived.

"I am trying to find the truth."

I doubt it - you are already assured that you have it, having pronounced the Scriptures "myths and allegories". Therefore, your questions are disingenuous to the extreme. The answers to the questions you ask are apparent to anyone with a modicum of Scriptural knowlege, and are readily found with a simple search. Having already discounted the source, what difference could the answer make? To you, there is no truth in Scripture, so asking about it is just a game.

We are called to judge (i.e., discern), so the applicable Scriptures here are do or do not answer a fool in his folly (Prov). I will choose the former, having discerned that it will shame you.

See below.


Answering AO's folly - diet
"Why does Jesus say that ham sandwiches are good, shrimp cocktails are good, and you don't have to take off a piece of your sons' pen!ses? Let me know what you think."

It's not what I think - it's what WE KNOW.

He said that we are defiled by what comes out of our mouths, as what goes in ultimately ends up in the dung heap. Paul confirms that there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile, pagan, dog). Peter confirms that all foods are permissible. However, we are also taught not to allow our diets to offend. This is plain in the Koine - read it.

For all of the Biblical education you claim, you are quite ignorant.

Answering AO's folly - abortion
"BTW, where in the Bible does it say that abortion is abominable?"

Apply the second of the great commandments. You were an "other" before you (or your mother) were aware of it.

You follow perfectly in the footsteps of the Pharisees, trying to trap over detail, but missing the obvious truths.

BTW, your Greek might be better than your Hebrew. The word is not miscarriage.

Answering AO's folly - atheism
"Me; I am the poor atheist..."

There is no such thing as an atheist. In whatever you place your trust, that becomes your god.

CAM
I am a little confused by your statement about judgment. Are you saying ;you never judge anything? that judgment is wrong? What exactly are you saying. We all make judgments everyday. If you are against the war that is a judgment. The bible says do not judge lest you be judged. but it also say be wise as a serpent, discern right from wrong truth from lies, if we don't we walk around in a confused state. Judgment to me means thinking that I would never do that or behave that way. It means lifting myself up above others. It means hate and resentment. Judgment does not mean not knowing something is wrong when I see it. In the 70's swinging was the in thing today it's homosexuality. Sex is a very powerful interactive commodity. It also can change people's lives. It is easy to criticize God for his laws it is much harder to ask why and what does he want us to see. If you don't believe in God then this discussion is pointless. No need to even have it unless you are a seeker.

Truth on a Sheet
Biblical ignorance is once more to the fore, I see. Leviticus deals with moral habits as well as food regulations that were for the benefit of a people who had not had access to a wide variety of food when they were slaves in Egypt. Shellfish done properly is wonderful. Shellfish cooked incorrectly will kill you.

In Acts, Peter had a vision in which something like a movie screen came down from heaven. It was covered with all sorts of food animals. I'm going to bet there were shellfish on the screen. A voice from heaven told Peter to kill and eat. He protested that as a good Jew he had never eaten anything unclean, but the voice insisted. This was all in preparation for the Gentile mission, but it also stands as THE point in time when God declared food that had previously been considered unclean -- clean. "What God has made clean, you may not call unclean."

So, here's the issue. Where has God declared the activity of homosexuality to be clean? No where in the Bible. Individual homosexuals, like all sinners, may turn to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation and they themselves be declared clean, but their immoral behavior remains unclean and the Bible says they must cease that behavior.

AlphaOmega - Reply # 118 (Part 1 of 3)


AlphaOmega writes: “As for abortions, you are the one who makes the assumption that a fetus is a person. There is nothing in the Bible on which to base such assumption.”


The “assumption” is yours; there is no “assumption” in the Bible about it. In Luke 2:12 and 2:16 the infant Jesus is referred to as "babe," and the yet *unborn* infant John is called by the *very same word* in Luke chapter 1:

“And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:” (Luke 1:41)

“For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:44)


An unborn child is a person, a human life…


AlphaOmega - Reply # 118 (Part 2 of 3)


AlphaOmega writes: “The only place where a fetus is alluded, is an obscure passage, I think in Leviticus, that says that, if someone hits a pregnant woman and she miscarries and the fetus dies, then he must pay a fine. But if he kills the pregnant woman, then the penalty is death.”


The penalty for killing a person was death, whether that person was a pregnant woman or not.


The passage you were thinking of is not “obscure”, your thought is mistaken, your assumption is in error and your assurance is misplaced.

The unborn child John is referred to specifically and directly in Luke chapter 1, as mentioned above.


The passage you were trying to recall is not in Leviticus, but from Exodus, and your chosen passage destroys your position:

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.” (Exodus 21:22, NKJV)


This verse refers to an accidental injury, not to premeditated murder, i.e., making an appointment at the abortion clinic, going to the clinic on the appointed day, voluntarily submitting to a butcher, and in collusion with the butcher, murdering the child, with malice aforethought.

Not that further clarity is necessary, but the verse above says “gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows”. If the child does NOT survive the premature birth, what MORE *serious and irreversible HARM* could there possibly be?!?

And what shall the remedy be?


Fortunately, this is addressed in the very next verse of the not-so-obscure passage you referenced:

“But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, [24] eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, [25] burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25, NKJV)


AlphaOmega - Reply # 118 (Part 3 of 3)


AlphaOmega writes: “One can assume with some assurance, that a dead fetus is not considered to be on the same level as a live person.”


But a live fetus is.

And if a live fetus is harmed OR killed, *even by accident* (i.e., while men are fighting, Exodus 21:22), the penalties are given. The *intentional murder* of an unborn child is already covered by God’s Law against murder, and we already know without doubt that an unborn child is a person from Luke 1:41 and Luke 1:44.

So the intended implication of your unsubstantiated assertion that “one can assume with some assurance, that a dead fetus is not considered to be on the same level as a live person” is refuted by the very passage you attempted to reference in support of your position.


For Scott
That's fine. Your citations of Biblical verses suport your interpretation; indeed you know your Bible better than I.
Of course, that does not bring us into any agreement. It has been many years, indeed since I was a teenager since I have stopped believing in all the supernatural stories of the Bible. I do admire the extent that believers like you have managed, and continue to persuade a large part of the population that the myths and allegories of the Bible are fact. At least in this country, atheists and agnostics continue to be a minority. Nevertheless, the founders of this country, being variously agnostics, deists and perhaps even atheists, have set a good foundation, and have managed to keep religion away from domination of political systems. In the past 30 years, starting primarily with Reagan, the republicans have given believers like you the illusion of influence on the party. However, there have not been any substantive changes, either in abortion legislation or same sex marriage. I think we have reached the point where 50 % of the population do not want abortion to be illegal, and think that gays should be able to marry. In the next few years, irrespective of who gets elected, these percentages will increase.
One last thing, out of curiosity: Do you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible? Do you reject evolution, and do you believe that the earth is at most 6,000 years old? And is there any place in the Bible where Paul reassures the gentiles, that they don't have to mutilate their pen!ses to become Christian?
I would appreciate it.

One more thing
I remembered something else that has bothered me; in Matthew 26 (and again in Mark)we have the time after the last supper when Jesus and his students walk into the garden of Gethsemane, and Jesus has his moment of weakness.
The text says that the students all fell asleep, even the favored three, and Jesus moved further on into the garden and, alone, prayed to god and asked that he does not go through crucifixion and death.
Since Jesus is alone, who records this scene? How do we know that Jesus actually said those words?

Thanks.

Check the "if"
Matthew 26:39 'My Father, if it is possible, do not let this happen. However, I want to do the things that you desire. I choose not to do the things that I desire.'

Obviously, he shared his prayer, as he shared other things with his friends. Why do you care - it's all made up, right?

AO should be BO
Because your stench is let lose everytime you open your mouth.

You appreceate, what a joke. You appreceate nothing except to lure unsuspecting idiots into you vileness.

You at home in filth and hate anything good and true.



For RichD
There is no indication that he shared any prayers with his students. On the contrary, it is obvious that he is alone, that they are sleeping. The whole dramatic character of the scene works exactly because he is alone. He has been abandoned by everyone.

AO
"There is no indication that he shared any prayers with his students."

I won't respond and insult your intelligence by assuming that you mean what you just wrote.


AlphaOmega- I'll back later this evening


Hi AO,

Excellent questions in your 11:28pm and 11:41pm posts from last night.

I'm short on time at the moment, but I look forward to continuing our discussion later this evening,

Scott


Circumcision
SInce none of "the boys" have stepped up to this one, I'll take it. It's an easy question.

But I'm surprised.You really don’t know? I thought you claimed to know the NT well? Circumcision is quite the debate in the NT. It was given by God as a covenantal sign and promise to Abraham. In the NT the same sign is replaced with baptism. Baptism you see is a bit more “inclusive.”
Acts 7 and Acts 9 I believe, give evidence of the emotional debate that swirled around this issue. It was hard for Jews, putting their faith in Christ to give up this sign of allegiance. Things got quite heated.

It is also discussed at length in Romans 3.
But for your purposes, in I Corinthians 7 we read these words, “Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.
See, one thing Christ demonstrated and taught is that it’s not so much the outward signs that matter, but the inward. The Heart. And a heart that belongs to Christ is “circumcised.”

More on Circumcision


Hi Verbivore, it’s good to see you and Rich.

Excellent work on the subject of circumcision. I was approaching it from a different angle (in a later post), but your post reminded me of several other passages too, all written by Paul, as per AO’s request:


"Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [9] [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. [10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. [11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: [12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised. [13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Romans 4:8-13, KJV)


“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.” (1 Corinthians 7:19)


“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:6)


"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all." (Colossians 3:11)


See also Colossians 2:9-14


I’ll reply to AO's other questions soon...




AlphaOmega - “babe” = born AND unborn


AlphaOmega: “That's fine. Your citations of Biblical verses suport your interpretation; indeed you know your Bible better than I.”


You probably know the Bible MUCH BETTER than I do… I wasn’t raised in a church-going family, and it was not that long ago that I was baptized according to Scripture.

And there was no “interpretation” offered.

Everyone can see for themselves, Luke 1:41 and 1:44 refer to the unborn John the Baptist as “babe”:

“And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:” (Luke 1:41, KJV)

“For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

~~~

One chapter later (Luke 2:12 and 2:16), the infant (already born) Jesus is also referred to as a "babe", using the EXACT SAME UNDERLYING GREEK WORD used for the yet-to-be born John:

“And this [shall be] a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.: (Luke 2:12)

“And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.” (Luke 2:16)

~~~

Here’s the definition from a Greek Bible Study website (I’m not sure if the Greek letters show up on TH):

ß??f?? (brephos 1025)
1. babe
a child while yet in the womb (?µß???? (embruon)), the new-born babe
References: Luke 1:41, Luke 1:44, Luke 2:12, Luke 2:16

2. child, children
the child while yet in the womb (denotes ?µß???? (embruon)); the new born babe
References: Acts 7:19, 2 Timothy 3:15

3. infant -s
a new born babe
Reference: Luke 18:15

4. child (young)

This is not *interpretation* on my part, that IS the underlying Greek word, that IS the definition of the Greek word, and it IS used to refer to both an already born baby Jesus and a yet-to-be-born baby John the Baptist.


We have established, without any interpretation, that *both* born AND unborn infants are called “babe”.


AlphaOmega - “ANY HARM" is ALL inclusive


[NOTE: It was recently brought to my attention that your passage, Exodus 21:22-25, is one of the *most often cited passages* by abortion advocates, so it is my pleasure to explain the truth of it and put the misuse of this Scripture to rest. Some time soon, I will try to condense it into a single post, so it can be used conveniently as a “Troll Hammer”]:


Here is the verse, once again:

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.” (Exodus 21:22, NKJV)

Can anyone honestly say that this passage means anything other than what it plainly says? If men are fighting and a pregnant woman is accidentally injured, causing her to give birth prematurely, but no one is otherwise harmed, the offending person will STILL be punished, even though NO ONE WAS PERMANENTLY HARMED, according to the husband bringing charges and the determination of the judge.


Now, the very next verse:

“But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, [24] eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, [25] burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25, NKJV)

“ANY HARM”.

Any harm to whom? Who are we talking about here, in context of the immediately preceding verse?

“…a woman with child…”

“…any harm…”

There can be no *greater* HARM than DEATH, if the baby is stillborn (killed in the womb as a result of the injury) or dies during the premature childbirth as the result of an accident (i.e., “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child”).

You don’t think so?

I hope it never happens, but if you do something around a pregnant woman and negligently cause her unborn child to die, see how fast you wind up in court, AO.

This is not an “interpretation” on my part, anybody with ONE GOOD EYE can read that passage and understand.


AlphaOmega - Exodus 21:22-25 Summary


Summary:

1. The EXACT SAME UNDERLYING GREEK WORD is used for both newborn and unborn babies (Luke 1:41, Luke 1:44, Luke 2:12, Luke 2:16). Even pro-abortion people must acknowledge that a newborn infant is clearly a person, and it cannot be credibly disputed that God’s Word in the Bible also refers to the yet-to-be-born John, while still in the womb, by the exact same word, in the original Greek language.

Born and unborn, they are BOTH persons according to God. That’s not my “interpretation”, that’s what the Bible plainly says.

If you have a different understanding of these plain words that you think passes muster, I am certainly open to consideration of a credible alternative meaning, if you can provide one.



2. The passage you could not recall, but which you thought said “if someone hits a pregnant woman and she miscarries and the fetus dies, then he must pay a fine. But if he kills the pregnant woman, then the penalty is death” actually says something quite different:

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. [23] But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, [24] eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, [25] burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:22-25, NKJV)

If the unborn child was NOT IMPORTANT to this passage, then a woman who was not pregnant would certainly have sufficed, and using a pregnant woman would only add unnecessary confusion.

God is not the Author of confusion (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:33).

Besides, we already have well-known Bible passages stating the penalties for harming or killing a woman (or a man, for that matter), so there was no reason to repeat it here, unless there was something unique about a “woman with child” that needed to be addressed.

It was.


AlphaOmega - on losing faith…


AlphaOmega: “Of course, that does not bring us into any agreement.”


Whether you believe or not is a separate issue, but we should at least be able to agree on what the Bible plainly does (or does not ) say.

Certainly, sincere men of good will and honest intention can do that much.


~~~


AlphaOmega: “It has been many years, indeed since I was a teenager since I have stopped believing in all the supernatural stories of the Bible.”


I understand, and I am saddened that you have lost your faith, and I am hopeful that you will have the time and opportunity to regain it. One of the dangers of being raised in a church where false doctrines are taught is that sooner or later, an inquisitive person will ask questions that nobody has a good answer for. If a preacher or pastor or elder can’t give a good Bible answer to a good Bible question, or if the answer amounts to “just trust me”, that should set off alarm bells and red flags all over the place.

If we pursue the matter and become convinced that our church is teaching something that can’t be reconciled with the truth of God’s Word, that can lead to a crisis of faith. If one thing we believed isn’t true, what else isn’t true? If we can’t trust our preacher, who can we trust? The answer is God’s Word, because preachers can be wrong, but God’s Word is not wrong.

Discovering that certain things we’ve been taught are not true can leave a person feeling betrayed. People sometimes throw the baby out with the bathwater, abandoning ALL belief because of an experience like this.

I don’t think churches that depart from God’s Word in the Bible realize the amount of damage they do to people who are honestly seeking the truth; if they did, they wouldn’t do it. People who have been harmed or disillusioned in this way often paint all churches with the same broad brush, and assume that none of them are any different than the church they left, and this is a tragedy.


AlphaOmega - seeking the truth…


AlphaOmega writes: “I do admire the extent that believers like you have managed, and continue to persuade a large part of the population that the myths and allegories of the Bible are fact.”


I’m not sure that so many people are actually *persuaded*; but God’s Word is always there, and it is our job to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2).

It is important to correct untruths and explain misunderstandings about God’s Word, and to set the record straight. There are many people with honest hearts in the world who do not yet know or understand God’s Word, so it is good that we discuss these things, so long as the things we discuss are consistent with Scripture.

In case someone is reading along and happens to be seeking the truth, it is important to let people know that it can be actually be found. Many people experience the frustration and exasperation you mention in post #103 (July 2, 2008, 12:13am) with all the many different doctrines taught by different churches.

I experienced the same frustration when I was seeking the truth. Finding it can be very much like looking for a needle in a haystack, but the needle is in there, and if we are diligent and look long enough, we will find it. I believe the Lord will make sure of it, if we are honestly seeking.

It is a good thing to provide Bible answers to good Bible questions (both yours and others). God’s Word is constantly under attack, but it’s like an anvil surrounded by broken hammers. If there were not good, sensible, understandable answers to these questions, then you and I wouldn’t be having this discussion, because I’d be on your side of the conversation!


AlphaOmega - Literal Interp & Evolution


AlphaOmega writes: “I think we have reached the point where 50 % of the population do not want abortion to be illegal, and think that gays should be able to marry. In the next few years, irrespective of who gets elected, these percentages will increase.”


We shall see (Lord willing, cf. James 4:14-15).


~~~


AlphaOmega writes: “One last thing, out of curiosity: Do you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible?”


This is an excellent question. Like any other book, the Bible is neither ALL literal nor ALL figurative; some parts are literal, while other parts are figurative. The way to tell the difference is the same way you would with any other book, i.e., generally, a passage is literal unless the text gives us good reason to think otherwise.

In some cases we are told that a passage is figurative (like the parables).

In other cases, we find out that a passage is figurative because another passage tells us so.

Finally, a passage can be determined or logically deduced to be figurative, because that is the ONLY possible way it could be understood and make sense. This is called a “Necessary Inference”, which must not be confused with a “possible inference”.


Otherwise, like any other book, if a verse of passage is not clearly figurative, then it’s literal.


~~~


AlphaOmega writes: “Do you reject evolution,[?]”

Yes, I reject the theory of evolution as it is usually meant in the context of this discussion. Clearly small mutations occur over successive generations (what is sometimes called “micro-evolution”), but I have not seen convincing evidence for what is sometimes called “macro-evolution”, i.e., any “missing link” between lizards becoming birds or whales becoming elephants or apes becoming humans, etc.

The fossil record is truly enormous, hundreds of millions of fossils exist, and these expected and predicted “missing links” ought to be there, but they just do not exist.


AlphaOmega - Is earth 6,000 years old?


AlphaOmega: “…and do you believe that the earth is at most 6,000 years old?”


On one hand, we have the always changing and “evolving” theories of men; on the other hand we have the unchanging Word of God, but He doesn’t tell us everything we’d like to know about Creation.

We can only infer an age from the genealogies and other information He has chosen to reveal, and based on these methods, the earth’s age ranges from about 6,000 years on the low end to around 10,000 years on the high end. Either one is dramatically younger than “modern” estimates of about 4.5 billion years.

There are a few things to consider:

1. Man is often wrong, as every man knows. Brilliant men through the ages have thought many things on this subject, only to have their theories overturned by new information.

2. I am convinced and I believe the totality of the evidence proves, *beyond a reasonable doubt*, that God exists. If God exists, then He is not wrong.

3. I have examined the ways some men of faith have tried to make the Creation account in Genesis “fit” with current theory, and it doesn’t work. The Bible says God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in 6 days, and He rested on the 7th. There is no indication that these 7 days are not literal. If He meant each day to signify a “long age”, He could have said so, but He didn’t. Besides, it doesn’t make sense that way. God created plants on Day 3. He created the sun, moon and stars on Day 4. If there was a “long age” between Days 3 and 4, how could the plants live and grow without the sun?

Even a believer in the “Big Bang” has no explanation for Who initiated the “Bang”…

God’s Word tells us how Creation happened. I’d like to know more, but if He wanted us to know more, He would have told us. He didn’t. I am satisfied that He has a good reason, and that’s good enough for me.

According to God’s Word, the earth is around 6,000 years old.

I believe God.


AlphaOmega- Paul, Circumcision, Gentiles
AO: “And is there any place in the Bible where Paul reassures the gentiles, that they don't have to mutilate their pen!ses to become Christian?”


Yes.

“And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.” (Acts 21:21)


Issue is resolved, Acts 15:

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question." (Acts 15:1-2)


"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter." (Acts 15:6)


"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: [25] It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, [26] Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. [27] We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. [28] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; [29] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:24-25)


"So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: [31] [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation." (Acts 15:30-31)

AlphaOmega - Matthew 26:36-44 Gethsemane


AlphaOmega writes: “I remembered something else that has bothered me; in Matthew 26 (and again in Mark) we have the time after the last supper when Jesus and his students walk into the garden of Gethsemane, and Jesus has his moment of weakness.”


Yes, here is the passage, so that everyone can see what we’re discussing:

"Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. [37] And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. [38] Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. [39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. [40] And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? [41] Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak. [42] He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. [43] And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. [44] And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." (Matthew 26:36-44, KJV)


AlphaOmega - Mark 14:32-40 (Gethsemane)


AlphaOmega writes: “The text says that the students all fell asleep, even the favored three, and Jesus moved further on into the garden and, alone, prayed to god and asked that he does not go through crucifixion and death.”


Here is the corresponding passage from Mark:

"And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. [33] And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; [34] And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. [35] And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. [36] And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. [37] And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour? [38] Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak. [39] And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words. [40] And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him." (Mark 14:32-40, KJV)


AlphaOmega - Who Records the Scene?


AlphaOmega: “Since Jesus is alone, who records this scene? How do we know that Jesus actually said those words?”


Because the men who wrote down the Word of God were *inspired* by God, and God knows. There is a lot of confusion about this subject, but it need not be so.


“But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14:26, KJV)

The Holy Spirit would bring “all things” to their “remembrance”. This is important, considering that men are fallible even if they tried to write it down as it happened, let alone some years later.

But the Holy Spirit not only brought things they witnessed personally back to memory, He would also “teach you all things”.

*ALL* is a comprehensive word.


~~~


The writers were guided into *ALL* truth:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:13)

They wrote using their own style and vocabulary, e.g., a tax collector (Matthew) may use different words than a physician (Luke), which is evident from the texts, but they were guided by the Holy Spirit in what to write, and prevented from error.


Your question was about the NT, but the Scripture is inspired from beginning to end. Adam was not created until the 6th day, so there was no human witness to record “Let there be light” either. But God is the Creator of all things, and He has revealed to His Creation “at sundry times and in divers manners” (Hebrews 1:1) the things He decided we should know.


This is a fascinating subject. If you are interested in a brief study that is thoroughly documented with book, chapter and verse, please follow this link:

http://gospelway.com/bible/bible_inspiration.php


Point of clarification

In post # 148 I wrote: “We shall see (Lord willing, cf. James 4:14-15).”

What I meant was that we shall see if you are correct, if the Lord allows us to live long enough (hence the reference to James 4:14-15).

I did not mean "Lord willing" with regard to your statement "In the next few years, irrespective of who gets elected, these percentages will increase" (I would certainly not say “Lord willing” that the percentage of people who approve of gay marriage would increase), I just meant, Lord willing, we will be alive to see whether you are right or wrong.

Hopefully that didn't really need to be explained, I just didn't mean to write something that might be confusing at first glance.


The new tyranny
Biblical moral virtue requires God's Righteousness, but you have to understand Romans 14:17 for that.

Two resources you need.
1. Warnings from past "leaders."(neglected)

2. In 1776 tyranny was from King George. In 2008 it's deception which lacks Biblical moral virtue, known as Political Correctness. To restore America to it's original Declaration we need to declare liberty from the new threat of tyranny. See http://www.earstohear.net/PatriotsDeclaration2008.pdf

AO
If you are of the elect, you cannot be lost. Whatever good work that has been done in you will be perfected. Jesus said that none of his sheep will be lost. Did you have faith to fall away from?
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