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Friday, April 04, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Was It 'The Good War'?
by Pat Buchanan
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"Yes, it was a good war," writes Richard Cohen in his column challenging the thesis of pacifist Nicholson Baker in his new book, "Human Smoke," that World War II produced more evil than good.

Baker's compelling work, which uses press clips and quotes of Axis and Allied leaders as they plunged into the great cataclysm, is a virtual diary of the days leading up to World War II.

Riveting to this writer was that Baker uses some of the same episodes, sources and quotes as this author in my own book out in May, "Churchill, Hitler and 'The Unnecessary War.'"

On some points, Cohen is on sold ground. There are things worth fighting for: God and country, family and freedom. Martyrs have ever inspired men. And to some evils pacifism is no answer. Resistance, even unto death, may be required of a man.

But when one declares a war that produced Hiroshima and the Holocaust a "Good War," it raises a question: good for whom?

Britain declared war on Sept. 3, 1939, to preserve Poland. For six years, Poland was occupied by Nazi and Soviet armies and SS and NKVD killers. At war's end, the Polish dead were estimated at 6 million. A third of Poland had been torn away by Stalin, and Nazis had used the country for the infamous camps of Treblinka and Auschwitz.

Fifteen thousand Polish officers had been massacred at places like Katyn. The Home Army that rose in Warsaw at the urging of the Red Army in 1944 had been annihilated, as the Red Army watched from the other side of the Vistula. When the British celebrated V-E day in May 1945, Poland began 44 years of tyranny under the satraps of Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev.

Was World War II "a good war" for the Poles?

Was it a good war for Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, overrun by Stalin's army in June 1940, whose people saw their leaders murdered or deported to the Gulag never to return? Was it a good war for the Finns who lost Karelia and thousands of brave men dead in the Winter War?

Was it a good war for Hungarians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Rumanians and Albanians who ended up behind the Iron Curtain? In Hungary, it was hard to find a women or girl over 10 who had not been raped by the "liberators" of the Red Army. Was it a good war for the 13 million German civilians ethnically cleansed from Central Europe and the 2 million who died in the exodus?

Was it a good war for the French, who surrendered after six weeks of fighting in 1940 and had to be liberated by the Americans and British after four years of Vichy collaboration?

And how good a war was it for the British?

They went to war for Poland, but Winston Churchill abandoned Poland to Stalin. Defeated in Norway, France, Greece, Crete and the western desert, they endured until America came in and joined in the liberation of Western Europe.

Yet, at war's end in 1945, Britain was bled and bankrupt, and the great cause of Churchill's life, preserving his beloved empire, was lost. Because of the "Good War" Britain would never be great again.

And were the means used by the Allies, the terror bombing of Japanese and German cities, killing hundreds of thousands of women and children, perhaps millions, the marks of a "good war"?

Cohen contends that the evil of the Holocaust makes it a "good war." But the destruction of the Jews of Europe was a consequence of this war, not a cause. As for the Japanese atrocities like the Rape of Nanking, they were indeed horrific.

But America's smashing of Japan led not to freedom for China, but four years of civil war followed by 30 years of Maoist madness in which 30 million Chinese perished.

For America, the war was Pearl Harbor and Midway, Anzio and Iwo Jima, Normandy and Bastogne, days of glory leading to triumph and the American Century.

But for Joseph Stalin, it was also a good war. From his pact with Adolf Hitler he annexed parts of Finland and Rumania, and three Baltic republics. His armies stood in Berlin, Prague and Vienna; his agents were vying for power in Rome and Paris; his ally was installed in North Korea; his protege, Mao, was about to bring China into his empire. But it was not so good a war for the inmates of Kolyma or the Russian POWs returned to Stalin in Truman's Operation Keelhaul.

Is a war that replaces Hitler's domination of Europe with Stalin's and Japan's rule in China with Mao's a "good war"? We had to stop the killers, says Cohen. But who were the greater killers: Hitler or Stalin, Tojo or Mao Zedong?

Can a war in which 50 million perished and the Christian continent was destroyed, half of it enslaved, a war that has advanced the death of Western civilization, be truly celebrated as a "good war"?

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Virtually everyone has missed the point
The Germans failed to win WWII in December of 1941 when their offensive sputtered to a halt in the suburbs of Moscow, and the Soviet government failed to collapse. The Germans irreversibly lost WWII at Stalingrad in the winter of 1942/3. The US had nothing to do with the first event and almost nothing to do with the second: US aid did not start reaching Russia until late 1942 in any quantity, and it took even longer to get to the front, so Stalingrad was entirely a Soviet affair. Our entry into the European war did not materially affect the outcome; it did SHORTEN it, but Germany had already lost before we did anything.

The Pacifc war was willed and produced by FDR (see the book "Day Of Deceit"), but even so one must recall that we won in the Pacific with 85% of our war production going to Europe; that is we won with both hands and one foot tied together. We lost 40,000 combatants in the Pacific; the Japanese lost 1,000,000. It was a giant turkey shoot; the initial Japanese gains have blinded history to the simple fact that the Japanese insanely provoked a war they were completely unable to win. If FDR had kept us studioulsy neutral in the Atlantic instead of openly aiding Britain, it is by no means certain that even Japan attacking us would have led to our entering the European war. In addition, even if Hitler had declared war on us, as he did on Dec 10, 1941, there was no compelling reason to WAGE war in Europe. By the time of Opeation Torch, our first foray into the European war, albeit in Africa, all military people everywhere had to know that the Germans were in the process of losing, and by the time of the invsion of Italy it was clear to all that nothing could prop up the German cause.

What Pat does
"Like him or not, he is good at what he does."

... which is what, exactly? What in Pat's life has he ever created, accomplished, or been responsible for? He has spent his entire life as a media jockey and political groupie.

Great article
He makes his readers actually think about a subject, which is so unlike most of the media trash out there. Like him or not, he is good at what he does. Great job Pat!

Pat's flip-flop
By the way, if Pat is citing the Holocaust as a reason WWII was not "good" that represents a major flip-flop on his part, since in the past he has advocated for Holocaust denial. Pat will shift with the wind to make any argument convenient to him at the time. Compared to Pat, the Clintons' principles are etched in granite - not meant as a compliment to Billary.

lodestar
Either you are as dishonest as Pat or really, really stupid. The 50 million didn't perish because of Allied intervention, they perished because of Nazi rapacity which the Allies stopped. And if half the continent was enslaved after the war, the *whole* continent was enslaved until the Allies vanquished Hitler.

Sixty-five years ago two fearsome war machines, the German and the Japanes, were rampaging through Eurasia perpetrating destruction and genocide. But since 1945 the world has been able to take for granted that Japan and Germany have been peaceful, productive members of the world community. Can you imagine the nightmare if that were *not* the case? Hundreds of millions of people have led more stable and prosperous and safer lives because the Allies fought for the unconditional surreneder of these two bloody, evil regimes that Pat is so enchanted with.

vacuous paranoid ad hominem calumny
re:
"... Pat has previously expressed his satisfaction with Polish suffering as long as his beloved Fuhrer got to exterminate the Jews."

Come on, man... how big a chip on your shoulder can you ask someone to knock off?! we all get it that the Holocaust was a terrible thing, but 45 million others died also... Pat's own words here:

"But when one declares a war that produced Hiroshima and the Holocaust a "Good War," it raises a question: good for whom?"

The whole point to the column that many posting here miss is that WWII is often cited as "the last good war"... as Pat summarizes:

"Can a war in which 50 million perished and the Christian continent was destroyed, half of it enslaved, a war that has advanced the death of Western civilization, be truly celebrated as a "good war"?"

Pat and the Poles
"Was World War II "a good war" for the Poles?"

This question perfectly exemplifies Pat's cynicism, hypocrisy and dishonesty. When Cohen referred to WWII as the "good war" he was quite obviously referring to Allied intervention to stop the genocidal German and Japanese war machines. WWII in Europe started of course when Pat's idolized Nazis invaded Poland and Britain and France felt they had no choice but to respond. Hitler slaughtered millions of Poles, the worst massacre in WWII outside of the Holocaust, but Pat has previously expressed his satisfaction with Polish suffering as long as his beloved Fuhrer got to exterminate the Jews.


reply to: Higene
re:
Higene writes: Friday, April, 04, 2008 5:45 PM
Response to Joseph and lodestar
The thing about illegal immigration is that we are powerless to prevent it.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
First, many among us are unwilling to accept this fatalistic view. Second, if you are correct, then America is finished-- the Reconquista will be done.
Third, if you seriously fathom that Mexico has some right to territory that we confiscated almost 200 years ago, should not Israel give back Israel? And had not the Hispanics stolen the western land from Native Americans?

Your even goofier posit that we should annex all of Mexico would simply hasten the demise of America. There are still 100 million typically poor and ignorant Mexicans there in addition to the 12-20 million ignorant indigent they have already effectively sent up here, after instructing them how to milk American social services and welfare (while sending billions back home). Funny thing-- most Mexicans are loyal to their country whose leaders have so used them... it does not sound like nationalism and nativism is outmoded/dead after all.

Pat's Right On..
The real question is, Why did we allow Wilson to go to war in 1918? There where no "Isms" involved unless you count Monarchism. The old excuse of the murder of Franz Joseph, in Sarajevo just doesn't hold water. And why were the Germans the Villians in this? It was a thinly disguised trade war between an emerging Germany and the dying British. Britain was losing it, so Wilson, the ever avenging angel, joined their cause as soon as it was possible. Don't believe that crap about "over There"! The war was so unpopular that Wilson had to sign his Sedition law of 1918. Yet today we're spoonfed the drivel that American boys just couldn't wait to get at the "Hun". This little episode taught us many things that we shouldn't have learned about war. It sharpened our skills and increased our capacities to make war. It provided fertile ground for Hitler to grow and the pretext for the next war. As, it seems, all wars do.

Pat's Perspective
Of course Buchanan thinks WWII was a disaster. After all, the Nazis were able to murder only half of Europe's Jews, a mere six million. Pat has been outraged ever since that Allied intervention prevented his idol Hitler from taking care of the other half.

Buchanan's folly
The absurdity of Pat's premise cannot be overstated. The simple reality is that decisions to go to war are based on the reality facing the participants at the time..not some neat little time capsule that enables us to deduce the purity of motives in hindsight. Churchill's decision to go to War was truely one of life or death for England. Had he done a "Chamberlain", within a year they would have been isolated against a far superior opponent whose motives were known to be hostile. So, going to war wasn't a choice for Churchill...it was an obligation.

Now with your 20-20 hindsight fully engaged, what do you pacifists out there suppose Hitler would have done with the nuclear weapon that German science would have developed for him by 1948 at the latest?

Mr. Buchanan
Will you throw your name into the presidential race as a third party candidate? We need you. Conservatives have been abandoned by the Republican Party. John McCain is compassionate conservatism on steroids. We plan on leaving the President box blank on the ballot.

Catholic Conditions for a Just War
There is not a better synopsis written to indicate whether or not a war is just than those provided by the Catholic Church, as follows:

1. The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. There must be serious prospects of success;
the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.


The Good War
I find it interesting, that so little of this forum's wonderful and very well written comments include Chamberlain, Quisling, and Petain.

Perhaps I am merely a traditionalist, one of those old men who read just the annals of the victors. Perhaps I am only ridden with the shams of sentiment: my ancestors are buried on every American battleground from Yorktown in the employ of King George!) to Berlin. "The Iron Brigade!" remains in my family's oral traditions, so do the Arkansas cavalry. As a young boy, I read of Xenophon and Leonides and puzzled at the motives of the Trojan, Peliponnesian and Punic wars. Their tragedies.

The facts remain: The Library at Alexandria and the Ptolemy reign far out-weight Alexander's excesses. Who remembers the Bishop who sacked the library (I am certainly not ashamed to be a practicing Roman Catholic, but Fr. Chris offers no satisfactory explanations)? Have Marx and Mao (Stalin deserves nothing more than a footnote in obscure texts) survived the tests of Aristotle and his teachers? Dr. Franklin (anybody have a comment on why Dr. Franklin never mentioned Sir Isaac?) and his fellow patriots may not have created a miracle in Philadelphia, but they seem to have precipitated one.

No. War is unjust. They must be fought and we must die. There is a vast gulf between Treblinka and Camp Harmony.


The last good war
The last good war may just be the one fought against the Ottoman empire by the Christians under Pope Pius V, in whicht the Turks were defeated soundly at Lepanto. The Battle of Lepanto arguably prevented the Muslim armies under the Turks from rolling all the way to England.

History happens once
While it can be fun to speculate on what would have happened if....all that results is someone's personal fantasy. The history that actually happened is all we've got; we can't meaningfully compare it with some imaginary sequences of events, except for our amusement. Unfortunately, Pat doesn't understand this. He actually believes, as far as I can tell, that we should draw real-world political conclusions about what should or shouldn't be done on the basis of his--to give them one of the technical names used for stuff like--counterfactuals.

I enjoy a good alternate history tale as much as the next person, but I don't want anyone to make policy decisions on the basis of something about which we can, by definition, know nothing.

Also for FreedomResponsibility
On #2, communists and fascists/Nazis would have probably started battling each other--unfortunately, it would be a disaster for the people of Europe.

As for the then-colonies (in Africa and Asia), they would be a poorer duplicates (tension, anarchy as in Europe--but without the wealth and technology).

For FreedomResponsibility @ 15:13
There is some truth in that if the US had entered in 1939, WW2 would have been shorter--as Russia, Germany and Italy would have been beaten at one go. This was also a feeling amongst some Americans who joined the fight (proxy, in British forces) through Canada (an irony that 2 decades later--with a Canadian WW2 skyver as Justice Minister and later PM--fair numbers of Americans would run to Canada to skyve) at risk of their US citizenship.

Pat misses the point
Two questions he does not consider, which are monumental in judging "good" war or not.

1) Had the U.S. not been isolationist and entered in 1939, what would have happened?

2) If WW2 hadn't happened - if Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc. allowed to go unchecked, what would have happened?

I can't believe these are not honestly taken on. I totally agree that many deaths and misery came from WWII, none of which is "good". But for intellecutal honesty, you have to ask those two questions!

In my mind, #1 could have shortened the war, and saved the deaths and misery of millions.

Question #2 frankly, all the horrors of Communism, Facism, and bondage would have happened on a grander scale, and would have been 10x more difficult to remove - if not impossible.

Pat doesn't want to go down that path. In this case, "good" is relative. Isolationism, Pacifism is America in Retreat.

SkorpioG
Your scenario differs from mine by one day. That day was Sunday, December 7, 1941.

For Germany and Japan still to be allied, Japan would have had to eschew Pearl Harbor and hit the British, French, and Dutch colonies only. Fear that their oil supply from the Dutch East Indies might be cut by Americans operating out of the Philippines was one of their prime motivations for attacking us.

So, then what?
So, now it's 1955. The fires in Japan have long been extinguished, and the battleship Missouri sits in Tokyo Bay. The fires in the death camps have never gone out, and Hitler sits comfortably in the Obersalzberg when he's not overseeing Speer's construction of his new Berlin.

Germany and its subjects need oil, and the supply from Ploesti and Baku just isn't going to cut it. The Middle East beckons. Russian rails, Italian transport ships, Vichy Syria, a friendly Shah, and the next thing you know, the Wehrmacht is all over Iraq and Arabia, the British protectorates being negotiated away or brushed aside and Arab resistance crushed without mercy.

To echo Churchill, the lights that went out all over Europe would have stayed dark for decades at the very least. With arms and oil, Nazi Germany might be with us still today, barring the succession of some weak-kneed Gorbachev-like fuhrer whose failure of will might let it all unravel.

All this said, however, I have always maintained that the worst preventable tragedy ever to befall mankind was not the Second World War, but the First. Without the First World War, there would have been no Second, no Holocaust, no Soviet Union, no Communist China, etc. Europe's crowned heads would have kept both crown and head, and Europe's flags might still fly over far flung countries whose inhabitants in their absence have since suffered under native kleptocracies, if not genocide. Subtract much of the technology whose development was spurred by the needs of these wars, but add back the tens of millions of Europeans whose lives would not have ended prematurely and their hundreds of millions of descendants.

On a personal note, though, subtract me: my parents, both immigrants to the US, would likely have remained in their respective home countries and never met.

But what about me?
The one group Mr. Buchanan seems to have overlooked in his catalogue of people who would have been better off if Hitler had been allowed to run riot throughout the world (while we sang Kumbaya and chanted "All we are saaaaaaaaaaaying..." I assume) is the European, and eventually the Global Nation of Israel.

In other words, it would have been fine with Mr. Buchanan if my Daddy and his family had been exterminated, and I had never been born. In fact, apparently if we had been obliterated from the history of the world, that would have suited him too.

Same back atcha, buster. Glad, very glad, you were not making the decisions back then. However, from what I read of Canadian history, a lot of people up here would have lined up right behind you. When asked how many Jews should be allowed sanctuary in Canada, I am told the government in power at the time said, "One is too many." This is the country, mind you, that is welcoming terrorists and even sending special planes and providing special documents for them, today.

One Jew is too many. However, any number of Khadrs is not enough?

Price or cost ?
I don't know this for certain, but I suspect that the grunt in the foxhole doesn't think in terms of a good war.

I am also reminded of the words of an English Parliamentarian, Edmund Burke. "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

There will be future wars. The choices will be as difficult as any that have been made by our ancestors, because the choices will be the same. Do I pay the price for going to war now or do I pay the price for going to war later? Do I pay the price for not going to war at all ? No matter what your choice you pay a price. There is always a cost for your decision.

Tyrants, prophets and bullies do not negotiate, unless you are willing to cede to their demands.

Freedom isn't free. It never has been, it never will be.

Tibby

Charles Martel writes:
"The result: a bi-polar world, like the Cold War, with the US the master of Pacific Asia and Hitler the master of Europe."

Agreed. Either outcome would have produced much of what we see today. The Cold War would have been between Germany and US with pro-fascist revolutions occurring in the world instead of pro-Communist ones.

However, I think we would have been in a weaker position since Germany and Japan would be allies. A defeated Britain and occupied France would leave no one to ally with, save Canada, Australia and maybe Brazil. The Axis would have been in the stronger position, not to mention the better scientific postion.

The Germans would have been in orbit first since all their rocket scientists would be intact and in Germany. Additionally, jet aircraft, computers, nuclear research, etc. was advanced at the time and it was only after the historic WW2 that we advanced quickly with their scientists working for us.

I think I've seen this movie
OK, this is an interesting exercise. How would the war have progressed had the US not been dragged into it? There are (at least) three important points to consider.

(1) US neutrality ended with Pearl Harbor, so even in this scenario, the US is fighting in the Pacific. The pace of Japan's defeat would have been accelerated, until the end-game. There would have been no Hiroshima and probably no invasion: Japan would have been starved into submission by means of naval blockade.

(2) The Battle of Britain was fought in 1940 without our assistance, except that provided indirectly. Skirting the edges of the Neutrality Act, FDR had the Navy supporting neutral shipping in the Atlantic and initiated Lend-Lease. Little, if any, US aid was involved in Montgomery's 1942 victory in Egypt. Thus, stalemate in the West. Hungry and battered Britain might eventually have tired of the war and, turning Churchill out of office, reached a modus vivendi with Hitler. Europe's Jews? Erased.

(3) Absent overt US-German hostilities, the USSR would likely not have received vital US aid. A weakened Russia might well have fallen in 1942 or 1943. (Had the Germans focused on Moscow in 1941, instead of also trying to take Leningrad, the USSR would have been out of the war in 1942.) Stalin might have escaped beyond the Urals, but to do what?

The result: a bi-polar world, like the Cold War, with the US the master of Pacific Asia and Hitler the master of Europe. If the Germans achieved nukes first, they'd win because they'd have used them; if we did first (and the question might be, would we have pursued them?), then continued stalemate. Would the Nazi European economy have imploded like the Soviets did in the late 80's? I doubt it.

IT WAS INEVITABLE
England under Chamberlin certainly didn't want war, nor was France, with it's Maginot Line, much interested in repeating the holocaust of WWI.

What Stalin might have done I don't know, but his preference, to my way of thinking, would have been aggression from within, using fifth column techniques we later saw during the Cold War, although he had already shown he wasn't averse to foreign adventure in Finland.

On the other hand it's clear Hitler, Mussolini and Japan were bent on expansion, indeed Moussolini in Africa and Spain, Germany in Spain and Japan in China had already shown their plans along those lines.

From my perspective, whether or not WWii was a good war is irrelevant, the more important point being it was necessary.

The good war?
The end result of WWII is that the US was confronted by a genocidal monster with nuclear weapons that controls much of Europe and has a hostile ideology. If we had stayed out of WWII, the end result would have been that we would have been confronted by a genocidal monster with nuclear weapons that controls much of Europe and has a hostile ideology.

250,000 American lives and much treasure to accomplish noting. A goo war?

Is Any War a Good War?
Philosophically speaking, war is either just or unjust.

Ontologically, war is evil.

Should America stay out of war?

the whine of the chickenhawk
Patrick, was there ever a cause for which you fought because it was "good?" None that I can recall.
Was there ever an evil so severe that you believe it needed to be ended? None that I can recall.
Where were you when our brothers and sisters served in uniform? And still serve in uniform? Where were you.
It is easy to speak in whiney tones and condemn the sacrifices of other people and be philosophical because you are not risking your safety.
I don't believe that you are an antisemite. But I do believe that you are gutless and that if the Nazis had taken England and set up in the U.S. that you would never take up arms to drive them out.
You and your whiney pals simply do not believe that anything is worth fighting for if it inconveniences you.
I suppose that had you lived in the 1760s in the colonies you would have supported the King and then condemned the Continental Army and George Washington as fighting something other than your nonexistent "good war."

al..................
finally, PB's true colors revealed

PB finally reveals the extent of his isolationist and anti-semitic psychosis.
.................................................

That's a home run! Hit it out of the park!

So, OK, Pat
Let's see. Without the war, Hilter would have ruled all of Europe and the Japanese would have ruled Asia. The Nazi death camps would have gone on virtually forever, etc, etc.

I guess we just should have stood around and waited to see what would have happended next.

Wars are started by insane men,...
...and fought by the brave, the coward, the intelligent, the ignorant. Those who suffer most are the innocent, and rightly so, because whoever these "innocent" are, it is always the innocent who believe that crazy men are sane. Wars are eventually ended by the the sane, but the sane do little to prevent war. And, what little they do is always too late.

"There is no such thing as a good war or a bad peace", to quote Ben Franklin, yet he was willing to send the American colonies into war for the right of a man to own himself in the midst of slavery. A good enough reason.

As for WWII, could the USA have defeated the simultaneous invasion of the US mainland by the Germans on the Atlantic shore, the Japanese Empire on the Pacific shore, and the Soviet Union invading from either the North, through Canada, or from the South by way of Mexico and its Gulf? Probably, if the USA was prepared. Would the USA have been "prepared"? Not likely to a certainty. The USA always flouts the Boy Scout's motto of: "Be Prepared"! Therefore, WWII was indeed, for the USA, a "Very Good War".

Is Pat a "Sane Man"?
No war is good. But some wars are necessary. Note how Buchanan inverts the context for the question about whether WWII was good for Poland, starting out by stating "Britain declared war on September 3, 1939... to preserve Poland." WTF??? Who invaded Poland on September 1, 1939? Hint: NOT BRITAIN. Hint: Rhymes with "Ermany."

If Pat wants to make the argument that Britain's security interests did not validly include preventing a mobilized Germany, then calling herself the "Third Reich," from occupying Poland as well as Austria, go right ahead. We can discuss that. But he doesn't make that case here; he merely appears to assume it. This is rhetorical dirty pool.

War's consequences always include bad ones. Always. That point is valid in arguing against calling any one of them "the Good War." But if you want to argue against the causes for which the participants went to war, Buchanan, then do so, explicitly -- and start with Germany and the Anschluss in Austria, or, even earlier, Japan and the invasion and occupation of Manchuria.

finally, PB's true colors revealed

PB finally reveals the extent of his isolationist and anti-semitic psychosis. Was WWll a "good war?" Compared to what? The enslavement of Europe and possibly the United States as well? The complete extermination of the Jews?

PB complains that we only ridded the world of two totalitarian nightmares instead of four. If it were up to him, all four would still be up and running.

Doubters and revisinist
Pat uses a revisionists tool deceptively. He misaligns the causes for WWII with the outcome and with the disaster that was the war. Hindsight is an unfair advantage. Who knew Mao would dominate China instead of Chaing? Who knew Stalin would not give up geographical gains after the war. In 1941 it was evident, evident I say, that Germany was going to rule the world. That's right. In 1941 the smart money would have been quite the opposite of what actually transpired. Pat, you are two fairways to the right of your foursome. Play another game, sir.
The causes for the war are historically clear as a bell. Some of them had modern roots nearly a hundred years old. Not to mention ancient rivalries.
Hitler had been terrorizing the continent starting with Germany since 1933; fully six years before Poland was invaded. Stalin had been doing the same to his countrymen since 1917 instigating purges which in harsh terms means he killed his political enemies and all their friends and acquaintances just in case. The Japanese raped Nanking in 1938.
Don't you people READ history?
Pat, ninety-nine times out of a hundred I agree with you. This one time you just passed a real stinky in public.

Pat - Ever Wrong, Ever Simplistic
Pat NEVER considers the alternatives, always preferring slavery and subjugation over fighting for freedom; letting fanatical killers run rampant hoping they'll stop before reaching his abode!

Would the nature of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Tojo have changed without resisting them ... or would it just have been worse ... a question Pat will never ask himself!

But, this is really just a setup for trashing Bush later. If WWII, widely considered a necessary war, can be distorted to be a "bad" war, then it will be so much easier to declare the Iraq war an enormous blunder ... that' what Pat is really working on!


Good for the world
In case you forget--which I know you don't-- WWII kept more countries from suffering like the countries of Eastern Europe. I think we appreciated that then more than you seem to now.

Millions suffered terribly. We got that. Who knows how many millions more would have suffered had WWII not stopped Hitler and company. People back then had no problem celebrating the victory even as their cities and countries lay in ruins.

And it wasn't WWII that was good...it was winning WWII that was good. A different outcome would have made WWII very bad.

Perhaps there should have been a WWIII with China and Russia, but there was no will for it. Was that good--letting the Communist expansion kill a hundred million people?

The Establishment Parties Don't Care!
Lots of agreement that war is bad. But what is "war" in the modern era, and how can we know ahead of time if it will be judged a "good" one? Under the Constitution, Congress is supposed to declare war, but there are Executive Branch actions in the Middle East and other places where Congress did not declare war, but continously funds the Executive's overseas pursuits. Is this a war, and is it good? The internationalist/globalist neo-con and neo-com sellouts have allowed 25 million illegal aliens and terrorists to invade and destroy our country, which is specifically prohibited by Constitution Article IV, Section 4, and our illustrious leaders actually ASSIST the enemy invaders in their war against American citizens! Isn't this a war, and how can it be good?

Under the Constitution, the American people, who sacrifice their lives and money, are supposed to decide issues of war, and that is our best assurance that it will be good. The two establishment parties, operating an Executive Branch with a 70% disapproval rating and a Congress with a 75% disapproval rating, don't care what we think about the illegal alien/terrorist invasion, or the endless military action in the Middle East that is bankrupting us, so their actions have no legitimacy. One thing, for sure, is certain: the two parties' war on the American people is not good. What happened to our Constitution and democracy?

jerabaub writes:
"But one can also argue that had Hitler not had to employ some of his military resources to the western front, and had they been devoted, along with the majority of his forces, to the eastern front, Stalin would not have survived."

You're absolutely right. The Germans reached the outskirts of Moscow by December 1941, almost six months after starting the war. It's quite plausible Stalin would have retreated over the Ural Mountains into Siberia with the fall of Moscow. Germany had a habit of creating puppet states (Slovenia, Croatia, Ukraine) to govern so they could have easily done so again.

After that it gets murky so who knows? You could have had a "Fatherland" scenario where German troops were rushed from East to West to invade England, and Britain falls. Greater Germany would rule with its client states and the New Roman Empire.

Either in that scenario or historically, a Cold War would have evolved. The rhetoric coming from Hitler railed against the USA as a being a corrupt state run by Jews, so there is no doubt we'd be enemies.

Skorpio
Your scenario is plausible.

But one can also argue that had Hitler not had to employ some of his military resources to the western front, and had they been devoted, along with the majority of his forces, to the eastern front, Stalin would not have survived.

At that point, God knows what might have happened.

It is possible Hitler would have then gone after Japan( he was not averse to attacking his "allies", as Stalin learned), and perhaps Hitler would have attacked the United States.

Given our military, economic and industrial power just after WW2, we certainly benefited from the war, from that standpoint anyway.

Costs of War
War is always hell. However, I don't think it's a necessary evil because I don't believe in necessary evils. It's never necessary to do evil. And some things, though they be harsh and merciless, are not evil.

World War II was a fight for world domination by industrial powers. If our motivation had been to save the Jews, then that might have changed the moral equation. But it wasn't. We didn't like the German form of government and German expansion. We didn't like Japanese pursuing their imperial interests in resources in the Pacific. War is almost always about who controls resources. Nonetheless, that does not make it bad.

Pat doesn't ask, "What if?" and thus can conclude that WWII was not a good war. Bear in mind that the Nazi's had enough Zyklon B to kill another 31 million people. They were just getting started.

True, Stalin was every bit as nasty, and perhaps moreso, than Hitler. Alas, we didn't have the national will to intervene in Russian politics because our country was controlled by left leaning politicians at the time.

Oregonboy writes:
"It would be nice to know what it would look like today."

It's hard to say what the world would look like today had we not gotten involved in WW2. Lend-Lease shipments to Britain, the Soviet Union and China all helped. However, there is considerable argument about how long Britain could have fought without aid. Sure it received help from Canada, Australia, South Africa and other colonial possessions, but the War in the West was a stalemate by 1941. Germany and Italy were fighting in North Africa, and Vichy France was doing everything to stay out of Allied control. The war in North Africa could also have been stalemate had we not gotten involved.

In the Pacific, Japan was bogged-down in China by 1941. We cut off their oil shipments so they went looking for oil in the Dutch-held East Indies (modern Indonesia) and went to war with the Allies in 1940. Our submarines certainly played havoc with their colonial empire.

However, if WW2 was solely British Commonwealth vs. Axis, its conceivable the war could have been stalemated by 1942/1943 leading to negotiations of some kind. WW2 followed WW1 in many respects, including the U-Boat blockade of Britain.

Another possibility was that Soviet industrial might could have been marshalled, as it was towards the end of the war in 1945, to produce massive armies. Would they have stopped at Germany? What if they decided to blaze through Germany and not stop until they reached the French Atlantic Coast or even invaded Fascist Spain? A European Union, though completely under Communist control, may have resulted.

No Substitute for Victory
I think Pat Buchanan belongs to that group of Americans called isolationists who opposed our entry in World War II and he's been riding that hobbyhorse ever since. It's very simple: You oppose evil with all your strength and will or you will eventually succumb to it.

We must have the cujones to assert our republic is the best in the world and we will defend it no matter the cost, lily-livered liberals are welcome to migrate to Canada.

The lesson of World War II is we must deploy the defenses and offenses to ensure probable enemies do not achieve the weapons and power to destroy us. China expansionism and Islamic terrorism must be fought now with all the diplomacy and strategic and tactical weapons available to us or we risk an even more apocalyptic war than WW II.




A Good War?
Pat - Why didn't you finish your article by giving us your ideas about what the world would have ended up like without the fighting against Hitler's Germany and Japan and Italy, etc.

It would be nice to know what it would look like today.

Bob Harrison
Portland, Oregon

To call WW2 unnecessary
One would need to assume that it is inessential for a nation to defend itself against aggression (France and UK would have logically been the next targets--admittedly France failed miserably at self-defence).

For Independent Thinker, Frank Stein: one could count 1971 War as good (in a way, as the nation became independent; unfortunately, this was at the cost of 35 lakh of its population) for Bangladesh. Of course, that's a war in which US had no DIRECT involvement (Nixon did order Task Force 74 to Indian Ocean in support of Pakistan, but it wasn't anywhere near the Sub-continent even by 1971/12/16 ceasefire--and was pulled away afterwards).

If you examine history..
there were people in this country against every war we were ever a part of, including the Revolution and WWII.

Interesting Article
If you think the country is divided today, all you need do is look at the country in 1938 and 1940. The newspapers of the day were filled with opinions that ranged from pro-British to pacifist/isolationist. The Republican candidate against FDR in 1940 was Wendel Wilkie whose campaign was built around staying out of the war. The Lend-Lease Act was vigorously opposed and even after FDR's "If Britain goes down" speech opinion was markedly against intervention. The attitude of the country was "it's not our fight". Pearl Harbor changed that, but then again, Pearl Harbor wasn't an isolated event. Tensions with Japan has been increasing since 1937 and they attacked us after we cut off their oil.

Operation Keelhaul
A thought provoking column. Pat, do you or any of your readers know a good book about the origins of "Operation Keelhaul?" Was it Churchill, or Roosevelt who cooked up that horror? Or was it Hiss and a Hiss counterpart in the Churchill Administration?

Chris

Frank:
Actually, aside from the American Revolution, were there ever any "good" wars?

Pat challenges our assumptions.
Fascinating subject.

But was the destruction of European Jews a CONSEQUENCE of this war?

Or would it have occurred anyway?

If the west had not intervened, Hitler still would have invaded Europe.

Did Hitler already envision extermination of Jews, irrespective of British declaration of war against Germany in 1939?

I don't think the holocaust was a consequence of WW2. I think Hitler meant to implement his "final solution" whether the west declared war or not.

But if Hitler meant to pursue his "final solution" scheme anyway, would that have been sufficient grounds for the west to declare war on Germany?

Many people would answer "yes".

I can understand why.

But did the west intervene when Rwandans were hacking each other to death with machettes a decade ago? Hundreds of thousands, maybe a million or more, were slaughtered due to which "tribe" they belonged to....just as Jews in Nazi Europe were slaughtered for being members of the wrong "tribe".

I don't know the answer to these questions.

On WW2, given the loss of life in the war, given the war's role in facilitating Stalin's brutal hegemony over Eastern Europe, given the war's role in the rise of Mao Tse Tung and the communists in China, the issue may not be as clearcut as some would like to believe.

Some believe why not allow Hitler and Stalin to bleed themselves dry, bring ruin to their regimes(Hitler's attack on Russia)?

Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

Many argue that if "good" does not confront "evil", then mankind and civilization are in peril.

And certainly it is hard to argue that Hitler's policies were not evil.

Rudy's post(7:02) is excellent.

Why is war always
blamed on the ones who are oppressed?

If the Tyrants of the world would stop trying to own the world with a fence around it, we would not have war. When someone is being oppressed, they can't just hand over their soul to a dictator in order to preserve flesh and blood at all costs.

Was the world suppose to just roll over and play dead for Hitler and give him the world on a silver platter? That's what the liberals think. Let the bullies have their way. Give them whatever they want, just don't fight. Then, when all is conquered, the Castro’s and Stalin’s and Hussein’s of the world can tear each other apart.

A GOOD WAR?
Is there any such thing? I look at war as a necessary evil which will need to be fought again and again. As of good vs evil both sides in any war think they are in the right. Was the American Civil War good? And if so for whom? The South was destroyed broken and bankrupt but the north didn't come out unscathed either. It ended slavery but that was a dieing institution and it would have been far cheaper for Lincoln and the Congress to purchase the slaves and set them free. As it was race relations didn't significantly improve for years in fact the end of the civil war brought about the beginning of the KKK. In our "moral relative" world who are we to decide what is good and what is evil anyway? Pat is right in one respect WWII replaced one evil with another. Stalin and Mao were no better than Hitler and Tojo and if you ask the Irish Churchill was no better than any of them. Had the NAZIs and Imperial Japanese won the war based on their past behavior it is likely they would have carved the world into two opposing camps and subjected the world to incredible horrors. But then again didn't that happen anyway?

there you go again
Once again Pat B mixes in coherent and insane columns alternately.

He purposely misuses the term "good war" by referring to occurances within the war vs the motives of OUR PARTICIPATION in it to stop the murdering and plundering of two continents.

When people say "good war" they don't mean the dying and destruction was good. They mean those Nations who opposed the Axis violently and brought an end to the Nazi and Japanese rampaging had good motives.

Good grief Pat! Is your insane desire to be seen as just a little more clever than everyone else brought you to this? Thank heavens our leaders did something and ended it and didn't sit home sniping about how "the jews" were the root of it all.


A good war?
Wow! What an interesting question. As horrific as its many consequences, itemized here and elsewhere, we cannot compare the results of WWII to what would have happened if nothing had been done. This may seem to be a mundane comparison, or maybe just a bad one, but I’m reminded of a research trial with a new drug. To be truly effective and to have meaningful results there has to be a placebo arm in the trial so one can see if the treatment is truly better than not doing anything. Working in this field for many years it is clear that when this comparison arm is not provided the results are inconclusive at best. And they are deceptive and misleading at worst.

That being said Pat, and the commentators have made great points that we cannot forget. But we cannot say with any assurance what would have happened. Would it have been better, worse or somehow equivalent? Would we, Europe, be better off by letting the evil perpetrators continue their conquests and hope for the best. Or was it the right decision to try and combat the Nazis and the Japanese. Ultimately is that not the question? Is it better to stand up and attempt to combat the evil, realizing that ultimately we might be shifting the evil to others who will do what seems to come so naturally.

We as humans are faced again and again with our fate, not as beasts, or cognitive creatures that have barely emerged above other creatures on the evolutionary ladder. We are fallen creatures that too easily do evil rather than good. In addition there are evil forces at work in the world. Is there ever an easy answer? And is there ever a clearly moral response to evil, that isn’t at least tainted with evil, if not completely affected by it?

"History is a myth,agreed upon"...
...Bonoparte.

Joseph,all wars are "real wars",fought by people who think that it is the most important thing in the world and the whole world will end if we don't fight it.And for some people it will end.

But we have the luxury of history to judge past wars,but not the present wars.The judgement will be for a future generation.

And so it goes.

the real threat to fear today
Very good point, Joseph, which Pat B. agrees with entirely (see his book referenced just above)... the invasion America should TRULY fear GREATLY is that of ILLEGAL aliens. Mexico and other failed plutocratic governments to the south are trying to make America their welfare department. Egregious canards are that these people offer "cheap labor" and that "America needs their cheap labor" and they "are simply doing jobs Americans won't do." That is all HOGWASH!

Actually, as a society we CANNOT AFFORD to take in the madding crowd of ignorant, indigent, culturally disparate. Only miscreant employers benefit-- your hotel room and food are no cheaper. Meanwhile, IMMENSE socio-economic burdens are foisted on taxpayers and citizens, and the rule of law erodes everywhere. By definition, border jumping or visa violations are just the start of many crimes, some felonies, which snowball over time (identity and tax fraud, and inexorably welfare/social service fraud). Furthermore, the correlation to pandemic social pathologies is high-- capital crimes, gangs, drugs, dropouts, illegitimacies.

Join the fight to save America... Middle Americans JUST LIKE YOU stopped scamnesty in 2007, but the forces of evil are back at it trying to cram it thru. The best way to fight them is to keep barraging members of Congress in your state. Just below are their official contact sites... a few clicks, and you can EASILY send e-mails. Even easier--> NumbersUSA gives you FREE, prepared e-mails to send, and even targets your people in Congress for you. BOOKMARK THESE, and get engaged today!

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm
http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet

a necessary evil; not a postive good
Humans periodically go to war... the purported reasons are often indefinite... we are the only animal that kills pretty much indiscriminately. It does not speak well of the most cognitive creature. There is a line in the famous novel GWTW: "Most of the miseries of the world have been caused by war... and after they were over, nobody could remember what they were for." WWII was really precipitated by WWI, and it had a goofy start in the Balkans, a source of unrest for centuries... without "the war to end all wars," you do not get the bitterness and misery in Germany that allowed Hitler to rise.

Pat's point is that you cannot look at any war as an isolated event-- you have to assess what it was a predicate for. Since the Soviets ended up with half of Europe, which they oppressed for decades, it was terrible for all of them. The war helped eliminate the European nations as true world powers-- it wore them out.

Many have questioned whether the Germans have an inherently pathological evil streak that could have allowed the Holocaust and other genocide, yet Stalin slaughtered far more noncombatants over the years (while his cohorts watched), and the Japanese were merciless with Asians they considered racially inferior, and Pol Pot killed millions... it seems to be the nature of our beast.

History is allways written by the victor
Actually, History is a distortion agreed upon by the victors. Not my quote , but an excellent one .

we are facing a real war right now . It is an invasion of our country by illegal aliens.

Rep. Heath Shuler has authored a bill HR 4088 SAVE act. which would make it difficult for illegals to find employment. Shuler is a first time democratic congressman. He is a former Heisman Trophy runner-up and a former NFL quarterback. He is an American who is buckig his party leadership (Pelosi) and not letting any riders be attached to his bill. We need 33 more signatures for a discharge petition which would bring up the bill for a vote before the full house. Please join numbersusa at http://www.numberusa.com and send faxes to your congressman.


Thank goodness for common sense
The myth of WW2 as the good war is one that has corrupted Democrats and Republicans alike for far too long. It needs to be buried once and for all.
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