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Tuesday, March 04, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Second Battle of NAFTA
by Pat Buchanan
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If Canada and Mexico do not renegotiate NAFTA, said Hillary Clinton in the Cleveland debate, she would "opt out" of the trade treaty that was the legislative altarpiece of Bill Clinton's presidency. Barack agreed. NAFTA is renegotiated, or NAFTA is gone.

Barack went further. He has denounced "open trucking," the feature of NAFTA whereby Mexican trucks are to be free to roam the United States and compete with the Teamsters of Jim Hoffa's union, which just endorsed him.

The trade issue is back, big-time. For to blue-collar workers in industrial states like Ohio, NAFTA is a code word for betrayal -- a sellout of them and their families to CEOs panting to move production out of the United States to cheap-labor countries like Mexico and China.

Our workers' instincts are backed up by stats. In 2007, the U.S. trade deficit with Mexico soared 16 percent to $73 billion, a record. Mexico now ships more cars to us now than we ship to the world. And where did Mexico get an auto industry?

The U.S. trade deficit with China shot up 10 percent to $256 billion, the largest trade deficit ever between any two countries.

Charles MacMillion of MBG Services has run the numbers.

In manufactures, the United States had a trade deficit of $499 billion in 2007, a slight improvement over the $526 billion record in 2006. Yet that trade deficit in manufactured goods with the world is more than twice as large as our $224 billion bill for OPEC's oil.

Under Bush, the U.S. trade deficit has doubled. Three million manufacturing jobs have vanished. And America has begun to run a trade deficit in advanced technology goods of more than $50 billion.

Our trade deficit in advanced technology goods with China is $67 billion, eight times what it is with Japan.

"Free trade is essential to the creation of high-paying quality jobs," said Bush on Thursday. But if exports create jobs (and they do), imports displace them. And if we import half a trillion dollars more in manufactures than we export, is not Bush trade policy literally slaughtering industrial jobs?

Is there not a correlation between $4.3 trillion in trade deficits under Bush, the 3 million manufacturing jobs lost under Bush, the fall of the dollar by 50 percent against the euro under Bush and the resurgence of inflation, signaled by a quadrupling of the price of gold, under Bush?

Neither Hillary nor Obama has laid out a new trade-and-tax policy to deal with the de-industrialization of America and our deepening dependency on foreign technology, manufactures and the loans to pay for them. But at least they are listening to the country.

John McCain seems blind and deaf to the crisis. In Michigan, he informed autoworkers their "jobs are not coming back" and explained his philosophy: "I'm a student of history. Every time the United States has become protectionist ... we've paid a very heavy price."

This is ahistorical nonsense. From 1860 to 1913, the United States was the most protectionist nation on earth and produced the most awesome growth of any nation in history. In 1860, the U.S. economy was half of Britain's; in 1913, more than twice Britain's.

In 1920, Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge won a landslide, cut income taxes from Wilson's 69 percent to 25 percent and doubled tariffs. America went on a tear. When Coolidge went home in 1929, the United States was producing 42 percent of the world's manufactured goods.

Who were America's protectionists?

Alexander Hamilton and James Madison moved the Tariff Act of 1789 through Congress. Aided by Henry Clay, John Calhoun, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, President Madison enacted the Tariff of 1816 to protect U.S. infant industries from British dumping.

Abraham Lincoln used Morrill Tariff revenue to fight the Civil War. The 11 GOP presidents who followed, from 1865 to 1929, all protectionists, made America the greatest industrial power in history, with a standard of living never before seen. Mocking protectionism, McCain is repudiating Republican history and all its achievements up to the era of Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon.

America rose to power behind a Republican tariff wall. What has free trade wrought? Lost sovereignty. A sinking dollar. A hollowing out of U.S. manufacturing. Stagnant wages. Wives forced into the labor market to maintain the family income. Mass indebtedness to foreign nations, and a deepening dependency on foreign goods and borrowings to pay for them. We have sacrificed our country on the altar of this Moloch, the mythical Global Economy.

It took Rip Van Republican 20 years to wake up to the disaster of open borders and five years to realize the folly of igniting wars in which no vital interest was at risk. How long before the GOP wakes up to the reality that globalism is not conservatism, never was, but is a pillar of Wilsonian liberalism, in whose vineyards our faux conservatives now daily labor.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Pat doesn't talk about Texas
Texas has done very well under NAFTA, and low taxes. Any chance Ohio and Pat can learn from what works?

NAFTA doesn't work
but the real problem is with China. They are dumping goods onto our market, destroying our economy and manufacturing base in the process.

Fair trade means no predatory pricing.


Where's the double-digit unemployement?
Using Pat's rationale for a direct relationship between trade deficits and job loss, shouldn't we have unemployment equivalent to depression-era norms - 25% or so? Why is unemployment less than six percent?

Oh, right. Everyone's working at Wal-Mart (except me and my entire family and everyone else I know).

Right on Pat, right on!
Thanks for another good article. Juan McCain is simply another tool of the CFR's global society. However before you get too excited about Barrack-No middle name-Obama...

It's now known Mr. Hope & Change told Canadian officials his being opposed to NAFTA was merely tongue-in-cheek political rhetoric... and the bottom line is he's another in a long line of free-traders. So, minus a few changes, an Obama presidency won't upset the NAFTA apple cart for Canada and Mexico. Just as long as we import their goods on Hoffa's trucks.

Sidney Says Let Them Eat Cake
Sidney McAmnesty admits he knows nothing about economics, and has been on the government payroll his entire life, so the loss of American jobs means nothing to him. The usual RINO contempt for working people, including Reagan Democrats, who will now vote Democrat again. Sidney's a real coalition builder, having told conservatives that he will not talk to them because that would be pandering. Also count as out of the Reagan Coalition this moderate rule of law Independent who is horrifed by McAmnesty's contempt for our Constitution and laws. Bastille Day's coming, McAmnesty, and your illegal alien, liberal, and media "friends" will be dancing in the streets at your demise. It's just a shame you have to take the Republican Party down with you.

P.S. How is McCain-Feingold campaign finance DEform working out for you? Oh, doesn't apply to you? Do as I say, not as I do! Contemptible.

For John Konop
That's because it has lost a lot of professionals (excluding medical and nursing--described further down) to the US through the "easy" TN-1 visas of NAFTA. Till recently, none in the nation even considered the common insistence on "Canadian experience" (and not counting American experience as equivalent) as contributing to this (why beat your head searching for a Canadian job when for US$50 you can extend the one in the US another year?).

On the medical and nursing: when either of these applies to a Canadian hospital, it oft takes months before the application is even perused and applicant contacted--by which time, the same applicant can peruse the internet and apply for US jobs, and already have departed (for US) on a TN-1, and even RENEWED the visa (read: "has been working in the US job for 1 year").

Computer chips or Potato chips?
I enjoy many Pat Buchanan columns. I find his perspectives often insightful.

But I don't see any advantage for our nation to simply protect industry...come what may. Some types of industry do need to die.

The future is promised to no one. Gone are the days when a man with an 8th grade education could bolt a piece of hardware onto an automobile chassis on an assemblyline, all day long, making $25/hr or more. Anyone in the world, with probably one hour's training, can do that.

I do think we need to protect, or invest in, highly skilled jobs, be they machinists or whatever.

We must also invest in, or encourage, intellectual capital to remain here in the United States.

Our graduate schools in the hard sciences and in engineering are composed of 75% foreign students, here on visas. Our own students gravitate to law schools, or get MBA degrees.

Hint: We need more engineers and scientists, and FAR fewer business or law grads.

There is a difference between excelling in the manufacture of potato chips, and excelling in the manufacture of computer chips.

I might enjoy a package of the former, but the future belongs to whomever excels in the latter.

Free trade is the only game left to play
Either get better at it or get out. Buchanan and all those who want to return to protectionism can whine as much and as loudly as they please, but that only makes them more annoying.

Check your dates
Wow, there's a fair comparison. Let's look at the period between 1860 and 1930 for guidance in the current global economy.

I'm not a student of history or economics, but it seems to me that the technological advances of the last half century would make this comparison moot. Let's talk about computers, advances in robotics, air travel, communications and myriad of other inventions that make the production and movement of goods much easier and cheaper today.

To blame the ills of manufacturing on nothing more than our trade policies is at least questionable, if not downright dishonest.

If you fancy another take on this issue, check out today's column by Thomas Sowell.

Trade policies...
are part of the problem. Tax policies are the biggest part.

If we don't have the will to impose tariffs then we must at least kill the present income tax and corporate tax system and go to a sales tax. The sales tax should exempt food, clothing( first $50 per article), gasoline, heating oil and electricity. Every citizen would be expected to pay this sales tax.

Old Buck
This is very standard fare for Mr. Buchanan. He does make some good points but does not consider that the US economy may have been even better without the tariffs. I do support tariffs on goods from countries like China that restrict our access to their markets and do not respect intellectual rights. This is what fair trade should be about-forcing other countries to treat us that way that we treat them. The idea of a "trade deficit" is ludicrous-see what Messrs. Sowell and Williams have to say about it. Does Pat really want us to pay much more for consumer goods?

everything old is new again

Apparently many of the posters here are unfamiliar with PB's track record: he has always been a protectionist--even during the Clinton administration whose economic policies many liberals yearn for.

NAFTA part of coming NAU...
NAFTA has seriously hurt US industry, but remember, folks, we don't have an industry anymore. The nation is being dissolved by the free-trade fetishists, the mass immigration cheerleaders (Bush, McCain, Medved, Kudlow, etc.) all these things combine to destroy US sovereignty, self-reliance, independence.

North American Union and then world government is around the corner....thank you elites, thank you neo-cons, thank you "man the economic animal" proponents....The ideals of 1776 are fading fast... but hey, we want cheap electronic gadgets and cheap lawn service and cheap busboys! Hoorah!

Thomas Sowell & Walter Williams
Should both stop writing article's about trade and read Pat Buchanan for basic understanding of economics.

quote:
The U.S. trade deficit with China shot up 10 percent to $256 billion, the largest trade deficit ever between any two countries.

Charles MacMillion of MBG Services has run the numbers.

In manufactures, the United States had a trade deficit of $499 billion in 2007, a slight improvement over the $526 billion record in 2006. Yet that trade deficit in manufactured goods with the world is more than twice as large as our $224 billion bill for OPEC's oil.

Under Bush, the U.S. trade deficit has doubled. Three million manufacturing jobs have vanished. And America has begun to run a trade deficit in advanced technology goods of more than $50 billion.

Our trade deficit in advanced technology goods with China is $67 billion, eight times what it is with Japan.

"Free trade is essential to the creation of high-paying quality jobs," said Bush on Thursday. But if exports create jobs (and they do), imports displace them. And if we import half a trillion dollars more in manufactures than we export, is not Bush trade policy literally slaughtering industrial jobs?


HOW ABOUT A DEBATE?

.....Pat Buchanan on one side and Thomas Sowell on the other on the floor of Congress ...

.....I think that would be a better use of our Politicians time and our tax dollars than holding hearings on steroid use in baseball and trying to ruin the careers of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens ...

.....Congres definetely has too much time on their hands .....COLOSSUS

Unrealistic dream
jerabaub writes: 7:48 AM
Computer chips or Potato chips?
I enjoy many Pat Buchanan columns. I find his perspectives often insightful.

But I don't see any advantage for our nation to simply protect industry...come what may. Some types of industry do need to die.

--------
How do you feel about American workers returning to the "good old days".
12 hour work days, 6-7 days a week.
These people had to work under such conditions if they wanted a job.

quote:
In 1911 a fire broke out at the Triangle Shirtwaist Co. on New York's lower east side. About 150 employees almost all of them young women-perished when the fire swept through the upper floors of the loft building in which they worked.

This is what NAFTA is doing to American workers who will never be computer chip makers.
Can everyone in America leave service jobs and manufacturing for "higher" education?

Maybe competing with the workers in Bangladesh appeals to your higher dreams but is all it is.
Not all Americans are either suited or desire to sit on their asses and make computer chips.


NAFTA is the same battle against labor the women of the Triangle Shirtwaist Co.had to deal with to eat.

Get real and just say it, people who go to college look down their nose on working Americans.
Arrogant idiots.

Declaration of Independence - 2008
I enjoy Pat Buchanan - I almost never agree - but like with William F. Buckley, I always respect his thought process. Mr. Buchanan, 2008 will see an new Declaration of Independence - and it will be signed at the ballot box.....
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/03/04/declaration-of-indepe ndence-2008/

Texas Vs. Ohio
Boortz posted a link to a story that belies Buchanan's rant here:

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/economic_differences_betwe en_texas_and_ohio_illustrate_the_problems_with_li/

The problem is the total cost of domestic production versus that of foreign production. When we consider taxes, regulation and the consequent compliance costs, labor is only a small piece of the equation. American businesses make counter-intuitive (bad business) decisions in order to comply with the tax code, the mountain of federal and state regulations, and in closed-shop states, union demands. It makes more sense to move production to a lower cost (including labor) environment than lose money just to comply with government demands.

If we want to restore our manufacturing base, we need to make the economic environment more production friendly. Eliminating foreign competition will only lower quality and raise prices. Eliminating taxes and regulations will do much more to bring back those jobs.

However, we are now a service economy. People are more valuable for what they know than what they can produce manually. Consider an assembly line where a robot can work non-stop for no benefits: is it better to be designing the robot or competing with it?

If we want to improve our economy, we need to work smarter not harder. If we compare what our kids know at a given age versus our foreign competitors, we are screwed. We need to focus on educating our kids to their full potential, not to the level of the dumbest kid in the room.

NAFTA has flaws...
Politicians, with only a few exceptions and then only widely sparse, produce miracles. We the people have produced more and frequent miracles, i.e. JFK & RWR.

NAFTA has flaws and should be re-examined and if need be re-negotiated. In a global economy, fair and free trade is essential for the economy to continue to grow and create jobs. However, we should be looking at the kinds and types of jobs we want and should be creating. Low paying service sector jobs are not the type of jobs we exclusively should be creating. However, under the current conditions the un-level playing field is neither fair nor free. This is costing we the people in more ways than one, that were not foreseen when NAFTA was created and implemented.

So true.
Well written, Pat Buchanan.

"Lost sovereignty. A sinking dollar. A hollowing out of U.S. manufacturing. Stagnant wages. Wives forced into the labor market to maintain the family income. Mass indebtedness to foreign nations, and a deepening dependency on foreign goods and borrowings to pay for them. We have sacrificed our country on the altar of this Moloch, the mythical Global Economy."

The richest unions are corporations
They also are the most influencial with people like the man GW Bush.
A real corporate thinker, a union man to the marrow of his bones.
Only his union is the union of management who seek profit at any cost.
So what is the difference in a corporate union and a labor union?
NONE

The American worker is to blame according to the arrogant men like GW Bush, John McCain and basically all democrats and republicans holding high office.
Both parties supported NAFTA cause they are both owned by the same elites.
The Union bosses of the Corporations they all work for.

Bankers who run such organizations as the CFR.
The truth managers of all Foreign Policy matters, a bunch of one worlders.

There is no stopping it, so it is good to recognize it for what it is though.

They have gained such power over America and admired for it, as they direct the path into the new world order of Herbert Walker Bush and company.

A world where law abiding traveling Americans get body scans as dangerous suspects, the criminals from all over the globe are welcomed in with open borders and government protection from prosecution.

Low Paying Service Sector Jobs
Are low paying for at least two reasons: an abundance of low skill labor (no doubt largely illegally here in some regions) and low quality. One can hire a low skilled laborer to paint his house for $12 an hour and get a paint job that will last a short while with a lot of misses, skips, and poor or non-existent preparation, or one can hire an experienced painter for $150 an hour and get a job that is expertly prepared, primed, and properly done that lasts many years. In the long run, the more expensive job is the better deal. It probably doesn't take any longer, looks far better, and lasts far longer. We often settle for low cost/quality goods and services because we don't appreciate the value of higher quality.


The other side of the equation
Buchanan and some of you commenters are dwelling too much on just one side of the equation. Think about how much you would have to pay now for a new car if we had never let foreign competitors in.

Talent Scout is an idiot
Who would YOU want to write about economics:

Thomas Sowell: BA Economics, Harvard (magna cm laude); MA Economics, Columbia; PhD Economics, University of Chicago (studying under Nobel Prize winner for Economics, George Stigler); Rose & Milton Friedman Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford.


Walter Williams: BA Economics, Cal State, Los Angeles; MA Economics, UCLA; PhD Economics, UCLA; JD, Washington & Jefferson; Chairman of Economics Department, George Mason University.

Pat Buchanan: BA English and BA Philosophy, Georgetown (cm lade); MA Journalism, Columbia; Political comentator; MSNBC; Author; Syndicated Columnist.

From a butt kisser?
SoonerRed writes: 12:30 PM
Talent Scout is an idiot
Who would YOU want to write about economics:
---------
ts:
Not you or Sowell
Tom is a believer in a anti-American economic system, the same one Karl Marx believes in and was educated too.
You obviously worship education with such blithering stupidity as pointing this out below.
\/

Thomas Sowell: BA Economics, Harvard (magna cm laude); MA Economics, Columbia; PhD Economics, University of Chicago (studying under Nobel Prize winner for Economics, George Stigler); Rose & Milton Friedman Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford.
--------
ts:
He is well educated in corporate finance isn't he.
So was Keynes, the Marxist and who Tom learns from.
Or follows by choice.

---------


SoonerRed writes:

Walter Williams: BA Economics, Cal State, Los Angeles; MA Economics, UCLA; PhD Economics, UCLA; JD, Washington & Jefferson; Chairman of Economics Department, George Mason University.
---------
ts:
Love Dr Williams basically, he is quite entertaining to say the least.
He just accepts a communist monetary system I despise is all.
-----------
SoonerRed writes:
Pat Buchanan: BA English and BA Philosophy, Georgetown (cm lade); MA Journalism, Columbia; Political comentator; MSNBC; Author; Syndicated Columnist.
---

ts:
Yes, Patrick understands America and our Constitutional monetary system much better than Williams and Sowell

The Second Battle of NAFTA
I thoroughly agree with this article, especially concering the lamb duck outdated and antiquated morsel that the Republicans are going to nominate. Surely the GOP has some young and alert bright lights in the ranks somewhere.

Unions & Corporations
Are not the same. Corporations are based on capitalism and unions are based on communism.

Corporations are made up of investors who provide capital to businesses with the expectation that those businesses will turn profits which yield a better return on their investment than just putting their money in treasury notes. Stockholders risk their investments and stand to lose them if the businesses do not perform. Consequently, investors are likely to only put their money where they think it will perform well. Anyone who has an IRA or 401K or pension fund depends on corporations being profitable. If the corporations those funds are invested in lose value or fail, the investors lose their retirement money.

Conversely, unions prevent businesses from being as profitable as possible by artificially keeping labor costs high by eliminating competition (the closed shop). Union workers may lose their jobs when a business fails, but they don't have to give back their paychecks, so they do not have the level of risk that corporate investors have.

Buchanan Lives in the Real World
SoonerRed:

Remember that Sowell and Williams are Econ people, who base their theories on the basic model that there is perfect economic competition. Buchanan lives in the real world where such is not the case, and minor concepts such as freedom and democracy enter into the picture. If Sowell, Sidney McAmnesty, and Williams prevail what makes you think you will be making enough money to afford the foreign goods? Besides, nice HDTV's don't fit into the motif of the tar paper shacks we would live in. Keep up the good work, Pat Buchanan!

jerabaub
Good and thoughtful analysis.

You should have your own blog.

talent scout
This appeared under your name:

quote:
"In 1911 a fire broke out at the Triangle Shirtwaist Co. on New York's lower east side. About 150 employees almost all of them young women-perished when the fire swept through the upper floors of the loft building in which they worked."

Please, in the futre, if you are going to quote something or someone, include the reference. We have no way of knowing where this came from or how to check its credibility.

Wrong
Galltegfa writes: 2008 1:15 PM
Unions & Corporations
Are not the same. Corporations are based on capitalism and unions are based on communism.
--------
ts:
This is wrong my friend.
Corporations are governed exactly like any communist nation on this planet.
Its controlled power no different than if it was a government of some State.
And it is a government, just not state government, but business government.
Ruled over by the man who sits at the top of the food chain, the CEO.
Exactly as Premier Gorbachev, Premier Khrushchev etc. sat over the corporate states of the USSR.
Totally anti-American.
CEO is a union boss no different than any other union boss who sets policy for the workers under him.
In fact the real cost of business is paying for the management and legal costs, hardly the workers in any comparison.
But only the money workers make seems to stick in somes craw.
But pay all corporation workers what they are "worth" ha ha.
-------------

Galltegfa writes:

Corporations are made up of investors who provide capital to businesses with the expectation that those businesses will turn profits which yield a better return on their investment than just putting their money in treasury notes.
------
ts:
Of course
The less money the workers make the better the profits for management and investors.
This is the entire battle.
Pay workers less, even if one has to go to Mexico or China.
Definitely increases profits and is what NAFTA is all about.
Screw the workers in America, let them go to work for their corporate bosses and all be good little communists respecting the state (corporation) they work for.
Interesting talking to you, and it can be seen as worthy of debate, in respect, if you care to continue.
I hate both unions and corporations.
Not real high on investors either, as all are contributing to more government in my view.

continued.........






M Sederoff

This is where I got it from, but its information from all over the web if one searched for
1911 a fire broke out at the Triangle Shirtwaist Co.

Not important which web site one finds this event.
It happened

http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Economics_Class_Page.htm

Then here

http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Eco_Unionization.htm

Galltegfa writes:
Stockholders risk their investments and stand to lose them if the businesses do not perform. Consequently, investors are likely to only put their money where they think it will perform well. Anyone who has an IRA or 401K or pension fund depends on corporations being profitable. If the corporations those funds are invested in lose value or fail, the investors lose their retirement money.
-------
ts:
How is this any different than for workers?
If any of that does not work, then the workers loses more than an investment, he loses his home and all income.
Anecdotal posts about lazy union workers making more than God is true too, but hardly any different than present government workers in many parts of government.
Who have much better contracts for benefits and income than the average lazy union man.
Knowing that all of them are lazy huh.
Wonder how they made America the richest in the world being so lazy.
Mysterious
---------

Galltegfa writes:

Conversely, unions prevent businesses from being as profitable as possible by artificially keeping labor costs high by eliminating competition (the closed shop). Union workers may lose their jobs when a business fails, but they don't have to give back their paychecks, so they do not have the level of risk that corporate investors have.
-------
ts:
Corporations wanting to have Mexican labor prevents American workers from paying off all their costs of living too.
Which increases yearly with the inflation and tax system we live under.

I understand everyones need to make money, even corporations and investors.
But to destroy American Manufacturing, sovereignty and independence is not going to be good for any citizen in the days to come.
Globalism, and free trade is Marxism at its finest hour.


China
Newsflash for you all China is not part of NAFTA (did East Asia merge with North America and I missed it?).

On the whole, NAFTA has benefited the US more than it has hurt and the US has benefited more from it than Mexico or Canada. One reason for the huge influx of illegals from Mexico is the damage NAFTA has done to its rural economy.

Oh and there is NO NAU, pure fantasy

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/5023




NAFTA
NAFTA, at least in concept is as old as RMN's presidency. Perhaps it just got a moniker under JEC. All presidents since RMN have done their bit to further the cause, no matter what party they claimed. And, since when did we start believing what a politician said?

The die is cast. Learn to live with it. You have not controlled your destiny in your lifetime.

Corporate CEOs
Answer to the corporation's board of directors, who are elected by the stock holders. If the CEO or the board does not produce the desired return on the stockholders' investment, the investors can vote out the board or insist the CEO be replaced. The CEO is not the final word in a corporation; the voting stockholders are.

Corporations or any business should pay the workers whatever is necessary to keep them, no more no less. As a worker becomes more productive, he is worth more, and if the management team knows what's good for it, it will appropriately compensate him lest he get hired away by a competitor. The key here is the worker has a responsibility and an incentive to provide value to the company/investor.


Galltegfa

Workers
The corporation/stockholders have no moral duty to overcompensate a worker. The worker's labor is only worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay for it (see the law of supply and demand). Corporate management has a duty to do what's best for the business. Keeping workers is part of the equation, but the bottom line is the profitability of the business. If a worker doesn't like the deal he's getting, he can look for another one or start his own business.

Society does not owe the worker a living. His value to society is only what he brings to the table, not the other way 'round. If the worker is the most qualified for the job, then he will likely get it. Unions on the other hand seek to limit the supply of workers - that is eliminate the competition. This is good for no one because the investor does not get the best value and the worker loses his incentive to improve his productivity thinking that he's set for life. In the end the business is less competitive.

Competition is the key to productivity and quality. Investors have every right to expect the most bang for their buck from the business and the worker. So, naturally, the investors will take THEIR money and put it where they stand to get a better return. No investors = no business = no job for either the worker or the CEO.

Galltegfa (off to my other open shop job now)

Good comments today ...
Go check out "Urban Legends" to receive more insightful information about NAU. Read carefully. The "legend" part of NAU is that it will begin in 2010. In no way does it imply the NAU will not happen - only that it will NOT happen in 2010. Then, go out onto the "Trans-Texas Corridor" web and find out just how Texans have been sold out by our governor and politicians. I don't know when I have felt so outraged or betrayed by our state government. This highway is what will be the beginning of the destruction of our country's sovereignty, but especially, at first, the destruction of the homes and farm/ranch land of Texans. Witness the Super-Collider fiasco of Waxahachie, TX of a few years ago. Land was taken, some people had farmed or ranched the land for 100 years, and they were forced to relinquish everything. We all know now, of course, that the Super-Collider never operated and it is now an enormous tract of government-owned land doing nothing but just sitting there. Wow! Yeah for the government!

Suicidal Policies

Just imagine you live in your historical family home. It is the biggest, most beautiful house in the neighborhood, and you take good care of it, making regular repairs and keeping an emaculate lawn & garden.

Now imagine that the neighborhood has always been pretty good, and your neighbors were nice. You always felt fine leaving your garden gate open and your front door unlocked.

Oh sure, there were some poor people on your block, but they were basically honest and they would make some extra money by helping you around your yard and doing basic handyman stuff.

But over the years, the neighborhood began to be more dangerous. People started selling drugs on the corner, and some thugs started renting the little house next door.

Some days you would come home and find that someone had been in your house, helping themselves to your food and going through your belongings. Some important papers turned up missing.

Then, people started holding drunken parties on your lawn. On Sundays, you would come back from church to discover that your neighbors were using your front yard to hold a flea market.

But you remember the good old days, and feel reluctant to lock the front door or build a more secure fence around your yard.

But then, you come downstairs in the morning and find people sleeping in your living room. It turns out that they like your house more than theirs, and feel that you are obliged to put them up. They tell you that you are xenophobic because you want them to go sleep in their own house.

They become more bold and start to park their broken down cars in your front yard because there is more room there. When you complain, they tell you that their ancestors used to live on this property many years ago, and even though your family own the land and built the house, they deserve to be there more than you.

Some day, you are going to have to stand up and make them stop.

Folow the leader
Where would we be without scholars such as Talent Scout to lead us down the path to the Promised Land? To say his ideas represent some of the more ridiculous views on this site, would be a huge understatement.

"I hate both unions and corporations. Not real high on investors either, as all are contributing to more government in my view". Is there anybody else left to hate?

"Corporations are governed exactly like any communist nation on this planet. Its controlled power no different than if it was a government of some State. And it is a government, just not state government, but business government. Ruled over by the man who sits at the top of the food chain, the CEO. Exactly as Premier Gorbachev, Premier Khrushchev etc. sat over the corporate states of the USSR".

And of course the CEO imprisoned or murdered dissidents and anyone that dare speak out against the ruler. Also, the CEO has so much power he can also stop you from going to work for another company or starting your own business. Sorry TS, but governments rule by force, something a CEO/corporation are unable to do.

This could go on forever, but I refuse to waste any more time or effort pointing out the obvious flaws in Lack of Talent Scout's postings.


NAU farce
That says it all.


http://americas.irc-online.org/am/5023

Small thinkers
luvs2000 writes: 3:51 PM
Folow the leader
Where would we be without scholars such as Talent Scout to lead us down the path to the Promised Land? To say his ideas represent some of the more ridiculous views on this site, would be a huge understatement.
-------
ts:
Truth will always be stranger than fiction.
Problem is you love fiction, I would guess.


"I hate both unions and corporations. Not real high on investors either, as all are contributing to more government in my view".
-------
luvs2000 writes:

Is there anybody else left to hate?
--------
ts:
Yes, much more.
I hate all tax laws that are illegal.
I hate eminent domain when abused
I hate "evironmentalists" who are as crazy as a loon when they stop working Americans having a job in the forest.
I could go on and on with other things I hate.
None of it personal though, just ideas that are stupid.
Like thinking there is any difference in a union boss and a corporate boss.




"Corporations are governed exactly like any communist nation on this planet.

---------

luvs2000 writes:
And of course the CEO imprisoned or murdered dissidents and anyone that dare speak out against the ruler. ..........
-------
ts:
Different subject.
I speak about operational policy, not police powers of a state.
Corporations are run like communist nations.
Open your closed mind some and pray for understanding.

-----
luvs2000 writes:
This could go on forever, but I refuse to waste any more time or effort pointing out the obvious flaws in Lack of Talent Scout's postings.
-----
ts:
Good
Take some time to think before showing your ignorance

Pot calling the Kettle Black
Talent Scout does nothing more than spout his opinions, backed up with little or no evidence, and then feels compelled to call others out as ignorant.

Sorry, but you have to do more than shout out ideas dressed up with big words and flowery slogans. This whole discourse started because you called out Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams as sorely lacking in their understanding of economics. Until you present evidence of this as fact, I'll stick with relying on their credentials.

In other words, heaven forbid that someone question your brilliance.

I do not mind questions
luvs2000 writes: 5:58 PM
Pot calling the Kettle Black
Talent Scout does nothing more than spout his opinions, backed up with little or no evidence, and then feels compelled to call others out as ignorant.
--------
ts:
Well if you will not take the time to look into what I am talking about before making false charges at me, what do you expect from me?
Look at any corporate policy you want to, it is comparable to any communist states policies.
Look into it for yourself.
One is about State matters and one about business.
Corporations just do not have police powers of State that the communists have.
----------

luvs2000 writes:
Sorry, but you have to do more than shout out ideas dressed up with big words and flowery slogans. This whole discourse started because you called out Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams as sorely lacking in their understanding of economics. Until you present evidence of this as fact, I'll stick with relying on their credentials.
--------
ts:
I respect both men.
My basis of disagreements with both is the difference in American Constitutional Money policy and Keynes Money policy.
They accept Keynes
I reject Keynes.
Has nothing to do with their education.
Its their beliefs I have differences with.
-------
luvs2000 writes:
In other words, heaven forbid that someone question your brilliance.
-----
ts:
I have no problem at all being questioned.
Neither is
"my" brilliance.

That belongs totally to the Founders and Authors of the US Constitution.
It is brilliant

UNIONS ARE PARASITIC LABOR MONOPLIES


.....I worked at Youngstown Sheet & Tube in Indiana Harbor in the 50's ....after six months I was out on a strike that lasted 20 weeks ...strikers are not eligible for unemployment benefits so I had to take odd day jobs to survive ...

.....When the strike was over I calculated that I would never be able to recover my lost wages before the next inevitable strike, in three years when the current contract expired ...I left for greener pastures and never worked in a union shop again ...within ten years the mills began to shut down because they could no longer compete with cheaper imported steel from Japan ...it was cheaper for steel users to buy steel made in Japan and shipped across the Pacific than it was to buy it from American Mills ....this was many years before NAFTA ...

.....The Rust belt is a creation of unionized labor ...rather than modify their demands to reasonable levels the unions, like gorged ticks would rather kill their host and shut down the factories ....those "glory" days of higher and higher pay for sub standard work are gone forever ...Thank God .....COLOSSUS

BaseballDoc- while you are right about
the parasitic nature of Labor Unions, it is nevertheless wrong that American truckers are held to a much higher standard regarding their equipment than the Mexicans are.

I say that the law should read that EVERY truck that makes deliveries within the United States should be held to the same standard. It this means relaxing some regulations, sobeit, as long as the same rules apply to Americans and Mexicans alike.

Since I am in the entertainment industry, it also chaps my hide that so many television productions are being made in Canada, because their government is giving American film companies a big tax break to provide jobs there.

This is maddening, because our local cities could extend this kind of incentive to TV companies to keep jobs here, but they are more intent on taxing companies than even socialist Canada.

NAFTA IS NOT A TREATY
GEE PAT,
THE NAFTA TREATY WOULD NOT PASS THE SENATE (2/3)SO IT WAS INTRODUCED AS A BILL AND GOT THE MAJORITY VOTE IN BOTH CHAMBERS by THE MENSHEVIK AND BOLSHEVIK PARTIES.
ADIOS,
Jarvey (formerly Harvey)
Lancaster, MEXIFORNIA (formerly Taxifornia)
dial 1 for english

nifty nafta
didn't the NAFTA cheerleaders tell us that this agreement would stop illegal immigration frojm the southern border at least since the mexican workers would find jobs created in Mexico?
thanks hilly
thanks billy
thanks bush and bush
thanks menshevik democrats
thanks bolshevik republicans

ross was right.
FREE TRADE ISN'T FAIR TRADE?
alas the big sucking sound as we swirl round the watery bowl and approach the last revolution.

adios,
Jarvey
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english

More Big Government
Opponents of free trade want to impose Big Government intrusion on the economy. We don't need more government intrusion, we need less government intrusion and more individual liberty.

Goverment is who made NAFTA
John

------

John Galt writes: 1:26 AM
More Big Government
Opponents of free trade want to impose Big Government intrusion on the economy. We don't need more government intrusion, we need less government intrusion and more individual liberty.
------
ts:
Are you blind, never mind, YES YOU ARE.
The government is the very people who are behind this CONTROLLED TRADE DEAL, and calling it "FREE" JUST FOOLS THE FOOLS.

America once HAD FREE Trade, no longer Johnny.
We have globalist controlled government managed trade, you blind bat.

Yes, if all goods were made in America,
everything would cost us a lot more -- but our workers would have the dignity of actually MAKING something.

I do not see how American prosperity can continue when most high-paying jobs have been exported -- and those that can't be are being filled by imported workers.

To add to this:
Cheap labor; When was the last time anyone has seen an American built dvd/cd player? A completely American built auto? American built copier, camera, computer, or home entertainment center? I have a remote control for my tv that whose parts were manufactured in China AND assembled in Mexico! This is just a part of NAFTA.
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