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Tuesday, February 26, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Return of Ethnic Nationalism
by Pat Buchanan
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In Africa last week, President Bush deplored the genocide in Rwanda in the 1990s, defended his refusal to send U.S. troops to Darfur and decried the ethnic slaughter in Kenya.

Following a fraudulent election, the Kikyu, the dominant tribe in Kenya, have been subjected to merciless assault. People are separating from one another and butchering one another along lines of blood and soil.

According to a compelling lead article in the new Foreign Affairs, "Us and Them: The Enduring Power of Ethnic Nationalism," we may be witnessing in the Third World a re-enactment of the ethnic wars that tore Europe to pieces in the 20th century.

"Ethnonationalism," writes history professor Jerry Z. Muller of Catholic University, "has played a more profound role in modern history than is commonly understood, and the processes that led to the dominance of the ethnonational state and the separation of ethnic groups in Europe are likely to recur elsewhere."

Western Man has mis-taught himself his own history.

Writes Muller: "A familiar and influential narrative of 20th-century European history argues that nationalism twice led to war, in 1914 and then again in 1939. Thereafter, the story goes, Europeans concluded that nationalism was a danger and gradually abandoned it. In the postwar decades, Western Europeans enmeshed themselves in a web of transnational institutions, culminating in the European Union."

Muller contends that this is a myth, that peace came to the Old Continent only after the triumph of ethnonationalism, after the peoples of Europe had sorted themselves out and each achieved its own home.

At the beginning of the 20th century, there were three multi-ethnic empires in Europe: the Ottoman, Russian and Austro-Hungarian. The ethnonationalist Balkan wars of 1912 and 1913 tore at the first.

World War I was ignited by Serbs seeking to rip Bosnia away from Austria-Hungary. After four years of slaughter, the Serbs succeeded, and ethnonationalism triumphed in Europe.

Out of the dead Ottoman Empire came the ethnonationalist state of Turkey and an ethnic transfer of populations between Ankara and Athens. Armenians were massacred and expelled from Turkey.

Out of the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires came Finland, Estonia, Lativia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. In the latter three nations, however, a majority ethnic group ruled minorities that wished either their own national home, or to join lost kinsmen.

In Poland, there were Ukrainians, Germans, Lithuanians and Jews. In Czechoslovkia, half the population was German, Slovak, Hungarian, Polish, Ruthenian or Jewish. In Yugoslavia were Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Serbs, Macedonians, Montenegrins and Albanians.

The Second World War came out of Hitler's attempt to unite all Germans in one ethnonational home -- thus the Anschluss with Austria, the demand for return of the Sudeten Deutsch, and the pressure on Poland to return the Germans' lost city of Danzig, and for Lithuania to give back German Memel and the Memelland it seized in 1923.

World War II advanced the process in the most horrible of ways.

The Jews of Europe, with no national home, perished, or fled to create one, in Israel. The Germans of the Baltic states, Prussia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Balkans and their own eastern provinces, almost to Berlin, were expelled in the most brutal act of ethnic cleansing in history -- 13 million to 15 million Germans, of whom 2 million perished in the exodus.

At the end of World War II, Europe's nations were more ethnically homogenous than they had ever been, at a horrendous cost in blood.

After 45 years of Cold War, the remaining multi-ethnic states -- the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia -- broke up into more than two dozen nation-states, all rooted in ethnonationlism.

As Muller argues, ethnonationalism may be a precondition of liberal democracy. Only after all the tribes of Europe had their own ethnically homogenous nation-states did peace and comity come. And what happened in Europe in the 20th century may be a precursor of what is to come in Latin America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

In China, Uighurs, Mongolians and Tibetans all resist assimilation. Tatarstan may be the next problem for Russia. In the Balkans, it is Kosovo. Serbs there and in Bosnia may emulate the Albanians and secede.

Americans, writes Muller, "find ethnonationalism discomfiting both intellectually and morally. Social scientists go to great lengths to demonstrate that this is a product not of nature but of culture. ...

"But none of this will make ethnonationalism go away."

Indeed, we see it bubbling up from the Basque country of Spain, to Belgium, Bolivia, Baghdad and Beirut. Perhaps the wisest counsel for the United States may be to get out of the way of this elemental force. Rather than seek to halt the inexorable, we should seek to accommodate it and ameliorate its sometimes awful consequences.

And we should look to our own land. According to Pew Research, there will be 127 million Hispanics here by mid-century, tripling today's 45 million -- and almost 100 million new immigrants. No nation faces a graver threat from this resurgence of ethnonationalism than does our own.

Look homeward, America.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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responsibility
Even though George Bush had seven years to change policy on Kosovo or negotiate a compromise with Russia about Kosovo, we Conservatives must absolutely put on all the blame on Bill Clinton.

tangent
dear mr buchanan,

i am going on a tangent here, but i think the following fact has hard time coming across to commentators writing about serbia and kosovo.

milosevic would have never come to power if kosovo albanians voted against him. but THEY DID'T. all of serbia's democratic and non-nationalistic parties begged them to - for years under milosevic's rule - and achieved nothing.

albanian nationalism was not a result of milosevic's policies but predated them, for many decades. throughout the eighties and nineties, albanians in kosovo completely refused to engage in the political process in serbia having one goal and one goal only: independent kosovo.

i am fully aware of how disastrous milosevic was. but even in old yugoslavia, albanians have been the most nationalistic ethnicity - BY FAR - and they remained such throughout years.

Ethnic Nationalism
All this tribal fueding has gone on far too long. I would think by now we would look at where we are and where we've been and shape our futures more toward tolerance. Especially on the African Continent we all look the same, different hues of brown, you would think Africa being the harsh environment it is would be nutured towards a more peaceful and prosperous future, instead it's governments are rife with corruption, it's resources plundered for personal gain and it's infrastructure backward to say the least.
Farmers are still having a tough time getting their produce from point A to point B. Even the so-called successful countries are inching toward or mired in social conflict. It's such a shame.

Ethnic Nationalism
All this tribal fueding has gone on far too long. I would think by now we would look at where we are and where we've been and shape our futures more toward tolerance. Especially on the African Continent we all look the same, different hues of brown, you would think Africa being the harsh environment it is would be nutured towards a more peaceful and prosperous future, instead it's governments are rife with corruption, it's resources plundered for personal gain and it's infrastructure backward to say the least.
Farmers are still having a tough time getting their produce from point A to point B. Even the so-called successful countries are inching toward or mired in social conflict. It's such a shame.

Idealism does not work
"Ethnonationalism" is an interesting word to describe a facet of human behavior. History shows us that is instinctual behavior, therefore out of the reach of our reason. Idealists like to believe that man can achieve something "better," and his character can progress. This is an appealing notion and accounts for the existence of all those liberals, progressives, and neo-cons out there.

But the fact is that man is a tribal, envious, greedy, insular animal; all traits that nature has provided, beyond the reach of reform. And I do not appreciate the Federal government wasting funds overseas trying to "fix" this "problem."

Interesting title to this column
"The Return of Ethnic Nationalism." Return . . ? It ever went away?

povidus
You post stuff with which i agree. Ethnonationalism is just an interesting word for transmogrified tribalism, the biological drive to form hunting groups and territories that is part of the development of humanity. It has, as you say, never left us. Remaining benefits in the modern day, if any, are small and subtle. Possibly best expressed as chemistry and momentum on a great NFL team. Or the group at North American who put together the P-51 Mustang. America has succeeded in large part because we, as a nation of immigrants, are demonstrably weak in tribal, territory based loyalty, as evidenced by leaving the birthplace, placing logical self-interest above tribal reaction. The ability of Joe and Jane Six-pack to get along with ethnicly different neighbors is unique. Lest some decry American racism, try becoming part of an ethnically different society anywhere else. Those who trumpet strength in diversity are politically correct non-thinkers. We are strong, according to how we are identical and recognize the basic humanity behind different birthplace and appearance. If the melting pot stops working, or becomes too small and weak to handle the new ingredients, we will be in trouble. We all hang together or we all hang separately.

burn, baby, burn?
"[P]eace came ... [only] after the peoples of Europe had sorted themselves out and each achieved its own home."

And for this very reason, Kosovo should have been partitioned. Failure to have done so invites another round of conflict and needlessly antagonizes Russia, Serbia's ancient protector, in a region in which the United States has little, if any, stake.

If I were a Serb, I too would have marched to the responsible power's embassy with some accelerant and a book of matches. How does one say "burn, baby, burn" in Serbo-Croatian?




Buchanan rewrites history
Buchanan has rewritten history to support his political agenda. The multi-ethnic empires of World War I fell apart because they failed to guarantee their minority groups basic democratic rights and constitutional protections. The Jews especially suffered horrific pogroms and persecutions, as did Slavic groups and the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. President Wilson and his Fourteen Points helped to end the war by promising these groups “self determination” and Democracy, i.e. their own nation states. Pat does not define an American as someone who supports the US Constitution and its commitment to Democracy and equality for all. He defines an American as someone with desirable ethnic, language, and cultural preferences. How does this differ from KKK assertions that only WASPs can be fully Americans? It does not. Patrick Buchanan is just another right-wing extremist hiding behind false history, euphemisms, and intellectual BS. Chaka Z.

Pat Buchanan is often prescient
Pat draws fire from those who find his truths inconvenient, but a few honest opponents have admitted here that his predictions from a few years back have been spot on. His book "State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America" lucidly and tellingly looks at what is coming.

The open border/one world ilk thinks that nationhood is archaic, that ethnocentricity by Hispanics is simply identity politics, that it should not matter if America morphs into an Hispanic dominated nation, but one needs look only to Europe which will soon be irreversibly dominated by Islam to see that change is not always better. America WILL inexorably morph into a third world welfare state if it allows the ignorant, indigent, culturally disparate, ethnocentric to remain and and become voters and citizens. Today's advanced service economy America needs educated, LEGAL immigrants, but must not welcome the invading desperate, lest they make a barrio here like they fled from.

so well said, worth a reprise
GREAT post here... could not have said it better, so worthy of a reprise:

************************************************
povidus writes: Tuesday, February, 26, 2008 1:56 AM
Idealism does not work
"Ethnonationalism" is an interesting word to describe a facet of human behavior. History shows us that is instinctual behavior, therefore out of the reach of our reason. Idealists like to believe that man can achieve something "better," and his character can progress. This is an appealing notion and accounts for the existence of all those liberals, progressives, and neo-cons out there.

But the fact is that man is a tribal, envious, greedy, insular animal; all traits that nature has provided, beyond the reach of reform. And I do not appreciate the Federal government wasting funds overseas trying to "fix" this "problem."
*************************************************

We sometimes imagine ourselves better than we are, then witness, e.g., the WWII horrors of the Holocaust, the Japanese in China... we lost 72 million in that war all told. Most other animals kill only to survive-- we alone do so out of choice, then fathom ourselves far superior cognitively, and imagine ourselves to be guided by god-- a sad comment on religion. NeoCONism (hiding behind platitudes about democracy) and militant Islam are too similar in agenda. Ethnicity DOES matter a great deal.

U.S. and Israel back ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS!
Possible Powder Keg might emerge with the Islamic spill-over extending into different parts of Europe most notably...Germany with its large Islamic Turkish population. In addition, I read something about a proposed Oil pipeline that is supposed to run through Kosovo.

According to the International Herald Tribune on February 24, 2008...the Russian ambassador seems to have suggested there was in fact a purpose behind the plot for the United States and Israel to do something insane like back Islamic extremists in favor of Serbian Genocide...all you have to do is follow the Money Trail Oil Pipeline. ????

Excerpt from International Herald Tribune 24 Feb 08

MOSCOW: Russia's ambassador to NATO suggested Sunday that Kosovo's split from Serbia was the result of an imperialistic American effort to "divide and rule."

In heated remarks in a televised interview, Dmitry Rogozin also reiterated Russia's warning that Western recognition of Kosovo could encourage separatism worldwide, using Germany's large ethnic Turkish population as an example.

Ethnic Turks in Berlin might one day ask: "Why should we not create our own — not Kosovo but Berlinosovo, Abrikosovo, Kokosovo and so forth," said Rogozin, a former lawmaker and nationalist political party leader, apparently referring to the name of the German capital and to apricots and coconuts.

"It's the atomization of the world," Rogozin said on state-run Vesti-24 television. "Who benefits from this? Only those who prefer to divide and rule — the old imperial principle. This is first of all the United States of America."

By recognizing Kosovo over the opposition of Serbia and without U.N. approval, Rogozin said, Western nations were replacing international law with a system in which "there will be only one rule: he who has brute physical power is strong and is right."


ISLAMIC KOSOVO QUESTION?????????????????
Are we about to encounter an ISLAMIC RECONQUISTA.
OF EUROPE????

Are we about to witness an ISLAMIC EUROPEAN AZTLAN...where ISLAM RECLAIMS ITS MOORISH EMPIRE FROM SOUTHERN SPAIN TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF EUROPE BEFORE THE PURGE????

chaka zulu
"Diversity" in and of itself is a liberal pipedream.

Until recently, immigrants came to this country through a process whereby unless they were refugees of some sort, they had to be sponsored by someone who guaranteed that the immigrant would not be a burden on the taxpayers, had to be free of disease, and could become a citizen only if they met certain basic standards. These immigrants were absorbed into American society and most added to the whole with hard work and fresh outlooks. What they all shared was a love of America. My grandparents did so in the late 1800's when they immigrated from Ireland. They became citizens and while they (and my entire family) never forgot our heritage they were first and foremost Americans.

This policy worked for nearly 200 years until two idiots named Kennedy decided that they should reform our immigration laws. That same living Kennedy, still an idiot, decided to repeat his stupidity in 1985, and then, along with another old fart named McCain, tried yet another iteration of his insane immigration policies last year.

Worshipers at the temple of diversity are morons who are apparently under the delusion that all societies are of equal value. "Value" is a subjective term. One man's treasure is another man's trash. Do I consider the Korowai tribe to be on a par with America? Of course not. Would a member of the Korowain tribe relish living in America? I doubt it very much. Diversity nuts are devoid of any moral, cultural or societal standards except one - tolerance of everything, including the basest of evils, and a stubborn refusal to make value judgements.

Yep - No question
"And we should look to our own land." Right on, Pat.

I mean, we have a young 40 year old Presidential candidate whose main claim to fame seems to be that he is an articulate African American who gives a rousing speech but whose leadership ability is 'nil. We have massive illegal immigration with gangs and subwars and such. Balkanization is the word -- and it is going on before our own eyes. Even our govt. categorizes people by race, in its official records.

The one good thing coming from the Obama candidacy that trumps is Left Wing rhetoric is that maybe we can stop the insufferable whining from the black "civil rights" community, finally. Used to really sympathize with the group, and now am just fed up with the PC, diversity crowd, multiculturalism, etc.

Another homerun from Buchanan
Buchanan raises compelling issues.

I agree with Lodestar and Povidus, altho when Povidus suggests ethnonationalism to be "instinctual, out of the reach of our reason", I might retort that it is eminently reasonable, even rational. I believe his point was that it's an essential part of man's nature, impervious to intellectual arguments, and on that I concur. But an instinct may be extremely rational from the standpoint that its existence results in a species ability to perpetuate itself. May not be conscious act, but its consequences are extremely rational.

Povidus is "spot-on" regarding similarity of worldviews between idealists, progressives and neocons. I hope each of you re-read his post(1:56).

I still argue against a separate Kosovo(Muslim)state, but given the thesis of Muller's article in Buchanan's piece, it seems inevitable.

Muller may think Americans find ethnonationalism to be repugnant, but not this American.

I see nothing wrong with it at all.

Serbia
Why can't the Serbs have their own Greater Serbia?
If the Albanians of Serbian Kosovo had to have their own country because they were a minority and didn't like it and agitated continuously for independence and/or union with Albania, why can't the Serbs now within the boundaries of Kosovo and Bosnia get to make their geo-political departure to their nation of preference, Greater Serbia?
Further, why the heck did the USA feel compelled to ever get ourselves involved in the geo-political landscape of the Balkans?

The American Culture
The lesson of history is that tribalism doesn't work. America has been a success because peoples from different cultures and tribes from all over the world melded together and spoke one language and honored one flag--the American flag.

Now thanks to PC liberals who think it's important that immigrants hang on to their cultures and languages America is threatened in the decades to come with a Balkans-like disintegration. English should be the official language and if immigrants do not want to accept this and our American culture they should be encouraged to leave.

America is unique in the history of civilizations and if immigrants do not want to accept this and pledge allegiance to our flag and our Constitution and learn and speak English they should be shown the door.

If only the "ethnic-loving" liberals could also be encouraged to leave....

Nationalism
I'm not so sure that Pat's 100% correct. There are Scots who will give you what for if you mistake them for English, but who still wear the Union Jack for European soccer matches. Different ethnic nations can coexist in the same state if the institutions are open to everyone--and there are certain commonalities between the cohabiting nations.

Bob_C
the truth is the truth no matter who says it...
thank you for posting my mind.

Jerseyvet
What is even more scary is that ALL THREE candidates are in Soros' pocket. He's an open borders advocate, as are Hitlery, Obambi, and McShamnesty.

We'll be fighting for this country in a few years or be Balkanized.

Bravo, Mr. Buchanan !
Mr. Buchanan, as always, is very deep and thoughtful. Thank you !

chaka zulu
Patrick Buchanan "defines an American as someone with desirable ethnic, language, and cultural preferences.... He is just another right-wing extremist."

Maybe he is, but I think leftists are more nationalistic than they know. I'm 57 years old, and I was brought up on baseball, football, and basketball. In my twenties, however, I turned to soccer. Almost no leftists my age joined me. They found soccer "too foreign" and stuck with what was familiar to them.

Now these same people proclaim their multiculturalism, which isn't genuine. They insist that all cultures are equal, even though they think our sports are superior to all others.

Face it, nationalism cannot easily be eradicated.

JerseyVet
"The lesson of history is that tribalism doesn't work. America has been a success because peoples from different cultures and tribes from all over the world melded together and spoke one language and honored one flag--the American flag."

America is "unique" because we destroyed the tribes who inhabited these lands we now call the USA (or we placed them in their own little TRIBAL national areas called "reservations"). Our "uniqueness" in this issue comes from the fact that we are so new historically; perhaps when a third, or better, of the US population is Hispanic and most of our Southwestern states are majority Hispanic in population (all having been afforded the ability to escape assimilation into the former cultural and linquistic norms), we will experience what is being describe in the way of "boundaries" around the rest of the globe).

Nature or nurture?
I don't know if ethno-nationalism springs from nature or nurture, but if it is from nurture, it is from our earliest nurturing and so is unlikely to go away.

Consider that an ethnic group is an extension of a clan or tribe, which in turn is an extension of a family. The family is where we are raised and, in our youngest years, where we find protection. As we get older, we rely less on the family, it is true. When times are good, we can shake these family and ethnic bonds and reach out to others, but when times are bad, we instinctively cling to those we assume will protect us.

Here in America, times are mostly good, and we can reach out to others, but in less well off places, that is just a dream.

All Excellent Points
So far this board is not contaminated by "Fraternity House" arguments that are devoid of intellect. The debate is so good; I have little to offer. Israel is an interesting departure from the norm. Israel was created not by natural forces but by world bodies trying to make up for the atrocities of the holocaust. Thousands of Europeans were thrust into the Middle East because of a common religion and a Biblical prophesy doggedly embraced by the world's Christians (The Promised Land). After 60 years of war, western Christians still do not recognize the problem and expect the heavens to open, bushes to burn, rivers to part or some other miracle to quiet the region. If Israel was 100% homogeneous, it would not help them one iota. The Islamic country's that surround them consider the Jewish state violates Sharia Law by transgressing on prior Muslim real estate. Israel must go or convert to Muslim. We, the USA, have learned nothing. We just recognized a Muslim state (Kosovo) that has within its borders a large number of non-Muslims. That has 2 benefits, good arms sales for the Russians and long term positive economic significance for the Kosovo mortuary houses. Never interfere with historical progression and never allow another country to interfere in our future. Overzealous politicians like Teddy Kennedy and corrupt governments like Mexico have the smell of death growing on them.

Still don't get it....
It still amazes me why so many are concerned about terrorism and the economy. The current economic situation is just a hiccup, a market correction that will end soon enough. No terrorist will be interested in bombing the U.S. once it's turned into a corrupt rat-hole like Mexico.
Nothing stands to destroy the U.S. faster than the hispanic invasion. Immigrants who come to this country should have to meet minimal requirements that will ensure their assimilation into the American "tribe".

United we stand. Divided we fall.
Assimilated we succeed. Diversified we fail.

Who says tribalism does not work?
Great preponderance of advances in science, technology, medical discoveries, inventions, occurring in the last three centuries derived from certain parts of Europe, and later, the United States.

I would argue that these inventions developed in an atmosphere of a relatively homogeneous population, especially those from Europe.

While modern Japan may be undergoing some economic woes, no one will dispute that nation has had a genius for refining, developing, and improving a host of products, from cars to cameras to electronics. Some say their products are superior, overall. I won't get into that.

Suffice it to say the Japanese have excelled in quality engineering and development of these products.

And Japan is highly restrictive in its immigration policy.

It has a largely homogeneous population.

The economic marvel and vibrancy of Hong Kong may also be illustrative here.

I suspect its immigration policy is restrictive too, and its people largely indigenous from certain Chinese tribes.

Chris
Frankly, Pat, you overestimate the intelligence of this generation of policymakers. All those big words(Kikyu? Come on, Pat!) are just too confusing. Can't we just all get along?

Like, hey, it's much easier just to send the army everywhere, clean up those "extremists" (only **one** norm permitted, Pat, not a hundred nationalities), praise democracy, and pass a lot of taxpayer money around to your greedy pals, and power to your power-hungry pals.

Paper bags full of hundred-dollar bills help.

See how easy it is?

Kikyu. Yeah, this generation of dolts would LOVE to Kikyu.

chris
"Can't we just all get along?"

If we can all get along, then criminals in prison can all get along. One could point out to them that they are all in the same boat and so they all should be able to just get along. What chance does that have of succeeding? Zero.

For society in general, there are plenty of criminals who have managed to stay out of prison, so right away one has people infecting society who can't get along with the rest of us.

Then you have the criminals who manage to gain power and become world leaders.

In addition, our era is afflicted with all these "rebels" who delight in not getting along.

Then there are different ethnic groups who squabble over land. And people with different ideologies who are violently opposed to one another. Why couldn't the Communists just get along with the capitalists? Why can't Democrats just get along with Republicans?

I'm pretty cynical about the idea that we can all just get along. As a child, I wanted to get along with the other kids, but I was bullied. I'm just glad we can get along to the limited extent that we can.

PAT
I read your entire article,HOPING, that the ending note would be different.It was NOT.I will not believe, that your intent was anything but honorable.But,I can not "Suspend Reality".The worst of our party,may cause us to lose the White House for the next fifty years.Your article appears to be a "GAMBLE",we cannot afford to LOSE.I like Nachos and I like Hot Dogs,I don't have a problem.Nor should any of "US"...

The Irony
While all eyes are focused on a tiny portion of the Balkans, the most glaring example of legitimate ethno-nationalism is opposed by our government. The largest ethnic community in the world without a home are the Kurds.

While it's fashionable to point out that Saddam gassed the Kurds as justification for our invasion, those same people ignore that Turkey has treated their Kurdish population similar to Saddam, with weapons purchased from the US. It continues to this day, as Washington sits on its hands while Turkey invades autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan, again with US weapons.

The Kurds are used to being abandoned by the US and most of the rest of the West. After all, it took 15 years for this country to be outraged by Saddam gassing them before it was used as part of the justification for invasion.

utahnotmormon
And your solution to the Kurd problem is what?

Ethnic Nationalism
One need look no further than the racist rants of ethnocentric Mexican Nationalists who admonish "old white people" to die or go back to Europe, insist that the US is their land, demand that we speak Spanish etc. This is Ethnic Nationalism on par with any African tribes, and on par with Islam's determination to subjugate everyone who is not of their faith. It's so obvious that we cannot have the utopian dream of multi-culturalism. Allowing unrestrained mass migration of any competing people is not in any countries best interest.

Oh, for crying out loud
Pat "Analyze in a vacuum" Buchanan, at it again.

"...peace came to the Old Continent only after the triumph of ethnonationalism, after the peoples of Europe had sorted themselves out and each achieved its own home."

Peace came to the Old Continent only after the United States made it unnecessary for any empires to be cobbled together there, by guaranteeing the security of Europe's post-WWII divisions against the depredations of the Islamic world, Russia, and Germany.

Europe could not possibly have coped in relative peace with the collapse of the Soviet Union, had not its "First World" northern powers been oriented on a common alliance with the United States. The ethnically unitary nations of Eastern Europe, formerly of the Warsaw Pact, would be seeking to merge themselves with greater powers were it not for the NATO-centered Pax Americana, which keeps Russia shouldered off to the east. The greater powers, in their turn, would be seeking to absorb the vulnerable lands of the lesser ones, since those lands lie across the paths into Western Europe from Asia and the Middle East. Without the NATO superstructure and the guarantee of US engagement, those vulnerable lands would need the defense of more capable armed forces, as they routinely did for 2000 years before WWII.

That none of this perennial European maneuvering is going on today is attributable to one factor: the United States of America. In our absence, all the other influences, which remain in play even now, would prevail. WE are the reason Europe has the luxury to play at transcending history.

on tribalism
jerabaub writes:
Who says tribalism does not work? Not me, but
voluntary connections work better.

"Great preponderance of advances in science, technology, medical discoveries, inventions, occurring in the last three centuries derived from certain parts of Europe, and later, the United States."

Europe as WWI surely showed was not homogenous
at least not in the minds of the people living
there, surely not in Great Britain.

"While modern Japan may be undergoing some economic woes, no one will dispute that nation has had a genius for refining, developing, and improving a host of products, from cars to cameras to electronics. Some say their products are superior, overall. I won't get into that."

But any good history of Japan will show the
government trying to create a sense of
nationalism that would be greater than local
attachments. The same can be said in Europe,
dating from either Joan of Arc and/or the French
Revolution.


"It [Japan] has a largely homogeneous population."

No, it doesn't.


"The economic marvel and vibrancy of Hong Kong may also be illustrative here.
I suspect its immigration policy is restrictive too, and its people largely indigenous from certain Chinese tribes."

You mean the British colony until 10 years ago.

So not that tribalism doesn't work but economic
success is usually tied to friendly trade with
other "tribes."

America's waking up...
Sparcboy gets it...

The hispanic invasion must stop. Although our politicians still seem willing to surrender this country to aliens, the people had their say last summer when the pols tried to ram the Amnesty Bill down our throats. Usually, 80% of the population will get their attention.

We know that open borders advocates represent 20% or less of the population and its probably represented by hispanics. For some reason, some people think that we need more cities like Miami and LA in this country. Well, the vast majority of the people in this country don't. The tide is turning and more and more local governments are cracking down.

South America is a big continent. There's hardly any country there that isn't suffering from poverty and corruption. Yet, for some reason, it's a good idea to import their problems into the U.S.

One has to wonder why the tiny U.S. is so attractive to the rest of the world who seems to hate it so much. Maybe it's because it's the greatest country on the planet. Well, the price of admission has to be more than a sprint accross the desert. Those that do, must be turned back.

orlandocajun
your facts are simply wrong.
some conservatives have convinced themselves that a vast majority of americans agree with them on immigration reform.

it is a lie that does not become true simply by repeating it. 60% of americans support earned citizenship in a poll from december. here is a poll from polling report.com.




One proposal that has been discussed in Congress would allow illegal immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have a criminal record, to start on a path to citizenship by registering that they are in the country, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements. Do you support or oppose this, or haven't you heard enough about it to say?"

.

Support Oppose Unsure
% % %
11/30 - 12/3/07
60 15 25


http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

Religeouslib
I'm citing more than one poll that was taken last summer including Zogby and Rasmeussen. It is your facts that are wrong. The majority of Americans support a path to the border for illegal aliens. If your data was correct the Bill would have passed.

"One proposal that has been discussed in Congress would allow illegal immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have a criminal record, to start on a path to citizenship by registering that they are in the country, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements. Do you support or oppose this, or haven't you heard enough about it to say?"
egal aliens."

Those are the same terms of the failed Amnesty Bill, and no I don't support it. I support applying for citizenship from their country or origin, like everyone else must, and waiting until we decide who and how many to let in legally. Let me save you the trouble of calling me, and the other 80%, a bigot. I've never heard any conservative suggest that Hispanic Citizens are anything other than Americans. It would not matter to me, and probably most everyone one else, where the invasion was coming from and which ethnic group it represented.

White Flight?
The multiculturalism myth will eventually prove to be the downfall of this nation if it is not stopped. Already the country is becoming balkanized by the newest 'immigrants' who not only are here illegally but also have no intention at all of assimilation. Some of the nations represented in the minority populations who have invaded the United States have a proven inability to govern themselves and this is what their people bring here. The lower portion of the State of Texas already looks like a third-world country and city governments have deteriorated at a remarkable rate. My question is this. How long will it be before the white-Europeans leave the United States and immigrate to nations with predominantly white populations?

Killer
Wrong namer it should be "Suicide".

Everyones facts.
Everyones fact, Wrong.

Historically, the Japanese have had the distinction of being relatively insulated, and the population largely homogeneous. And that very homogeneity may have honed their special genius for bringing to the world a host of such superior consumer products. I admire them.

Hong Kong's economy seems remarkably more vibrant than Britains', on a per capita basis especially. So your attribution that Britain is the cause for Hong Kong's spectacular success seems a bit of a stretch, notwithstanding my great admiration for my British cousins.

What about other former British colonies? India for most of its history since independence was viewed as extremely dysfunctional, with an anemic economy.

You may continue to worship at the multicultural alter to your little heart's content, happy to be among those whose snouts are immersed in the diversity slop served up at the trough, but my point is still valid.

If you examine the backgrounds of the people who conceived the inventions, scientific discoveries, medical breakthroughs, so essential to mankind over the last few hundred years, you will find the overwhelming preponderance to be from persons of Western European origin, especially Anglo-Saxons(including the Celts), but also including those of Italian and French backgrounds, along with Ashkenazi Jews.

It is what it is.

Contributions of dead white males ARE why we are enjoying such long, healthy lives today, It is why our civilization is the envy of the world.

Dead white males are underappreciated.

They should be worshipped.

Well, I would settle for perpetual respect, not worship.

After all, no group is perfect. Not even dead white males.

Do I hear an "Amen"?

OrlandoCajun
I don't know how much you have traveled in South America but that continent is full of people just like the White people of America. Uruguay, Paraguay, Brazil, Argentina, Chile are very nice country's with populations full of Europeans. Only in America do we use Hispanic as a wedge issue to label those people as a different race. My Grand Daughter lives in Argentina and she is a Spanish speaking child of Italian and American (English) heritage. Her Mother is 6th generation Hispanic Italian. Argentina is almost 80% Italian/German and other European nationalities. Argentina is roughly the same age as the United States and it looks more White than we do. Argentina has no Blacks and very few indigenous Indians. You need to travel more.

Warrior
Point taken...I should have been more specific in identifying countries.

orlando cajun
i gave you links to my facts.

where are yours.

i have been watching this for 2 years and have never i repeat never seen a poll where a majority of american people do not support an earned path to citizenship.


just please don't give me polls from v-dare or cis because they make money from satifying their market and their polls are always unreliable.

Don't you all get it?
This is more globalization talk.

The reason those areas balkanized is because the loyalties to the subcultures became greater than the loyalty to the nation; that's hardly nationalism!

Ethnic strife within Kenya, for example, is.. WITHIN Kenya. It's not between Kenya and France. But, without taking a breath, Buchanan equates ethnic conflicts within a nation to international conflicts.

For decades, the powers that be have been stressing ethnic differences in the U.S. and playing down nationalism, at times denouncing nationalism as if it were a bad thing. It's not.

Man is a tribal animal, just like the other apes. In our neighborhoods, our workplace, everywhere we work out a tribal structure for relationships. Nationalism acted as a check on such ethnic divisions, it did not exacerbate them.

Now we have an entire subculture made up of unethical people with no reason to be loyal to the nation and no bond with the history of the nation. That's on top of the ethnic strife that has be carefully built up over the past few decades.

Lay of the Last Minstrel
"Breathes there the man with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
"This is my own, my native land!"
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd
From wandering on a foreign strand?
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung."

-- Sir Walter Scott

In today's America, this is heresy

Immigrants?
Many lead off all immigrant writing with the statement that we are a nation of immigrants. While that statement rings soft to some ears; it hurts mine. The implication is; we and the current influx are the same. That is wrong. My family did immigrate here in the late 17th century. My family left well developed countries to face the unknown: Indians, disease, and hard work with absolutely no assurance of life or fortune. Current immigrants come to sup at the big trough, a trough built by the hard work of others. They come illegally and uninvited. I know no other land, I have no loyalty to any but my own--this one, the USA. All my earnings stay here, I have earned the use of, by paying my fair share for, all of its infrastructure and its facilities. I steal nothing and no one in my family has for generations. I have fought and bled for our freedoms. Never attempt to place me in the same category as these illegal, unwanted, uninvited modern day thieves nurtured (for power) by the Democrat Party. I am different!!

A few things
India was dysfunctional because of its government that favored socialist policies. Hong Kong is not because its government favors a policy that makes it the freest nation (well it is a SAR, but you get the idea) on earth. Singapore is as diverse as the US with four national languages and is the second most free economy on the planet.

Japan is more homogenous than the US, much more. 98.5% are Yamato, but there are minorities, Koreans, Taiwanese, the Ainu and the Ryukyu Islanders and even among the "pure" Japanese there is a caste system. The Burakumin, those whose family did "unclean" jobs in the past such as leather skinning. There are even agencies you can hire in Japan to make sure you future spouse isn't Burakumin.

You should also note that China is made up of thousands of languages, a great cultural divide between north and south China and made up of 56 ethnic groups and China was the most advanced state in East Asia for most of its history, much of Japanese's culture can be traced to China.

It wasn't until late in the imperial period that China really declined--the late Ming and Qing. And this decline cab be traced to China's clinging to an orthodox view of Confucian thought than due to any ethnic issues.

And KATZ:

"...the newest 'immigrants' who not only are here illegally but also have no intention at all of assimilation."

Really? Like to give me the date when Chinatown was founded in San Francisco or NYC? Were not similar statements made about the Germans in the late 1700s and the Irish in the 1840s and the Italians in the 1920s? Is not that the point of Geraldo's new book "His Panic?" Care to find me a second generation Hispanic born in the US of HS age that isn't fluent in English, doesn't like pizza, doesn't watch MTV? They assimilate just as fast as the ones before, if not faster.

I wonder how fast you'd assimilate if I dropped you off someplace, like rural Tainan county.


Warrior
You speak for for me and others like me who are descended from immigrants who were proud to claim the United States as their homeland. My ancestors came to escape conscription, oppression, and famine; they came here seeking only opportunity, not handouts or special dispensation. They did not sneak into the country, they learned to speak English, and they never insulted the country by suggesting that the United States adapt their native culture. And, bless them, they were never hyphenated-Americans! Well done. Thanks.

jdw
Nice Sir Walter Scott quotation.

I also don't swig the swill of unfettered multiculturalism.

Immigrants are fine, but severe restrictions should be placed upon types of immigrants worthy of setting foot in our Beloved Republic.

Discrimination is a virtue, not a vice.

And so on immigrants, those with education, specialized skills, and devotion to our republic, should be selected.

Others must be refused.

Our nation is committing suicide.

For we have it exactly backwards. We severely restrict those with specialized skills and advanced education, while removing barriers on those with no skills or education. We apparently make a virtue of ignorance. Import it. Can't get enough of it.

Tito in Yugoslavia may have forcibly eviscerated notions of ethnic identity, but the slow unraveling of Yugoslavia demonstrates that in the absence of a strong national identity, ethnic and other distinctions become paramount.

America the Melting Pot?
When I was a little boy in Memphis TN, we had our bathrooms, water fountains, and other facilities, and the "colored" folk had separate similar facilities. When I moved to Virginia in the early seventies, those barriers had just recently been removed, and I had the pleasure of participating in forced integration of the schools, which wasn't exactly a seamless endeavor. Even today, there are neighborhoods that are mostly black or white, so I'm no so sure how color blind our society is right now.

It is also my observation that most major cities in the USA have neighborhoods where various ethnic groups continue to stick together: Chinatown, Korean, Japan Town, Italian, Polish, German, Jewish, etc. I don't have a problem with that; I encourage people of different backgrounds to preserve their heritage (I've dabbled in Welsh/Cymraeg and Gaelic/Gaidhlig and visited the "old countries" myself to explore my own roots).

And yes, after a few generations immigrants generally take on the English language and the trappings of American culture, but many of us cling to our ancestral backgrounds nonetheless. The idea that here in the good ol' USA we're all color blind and accepting of other cultures is absurd. My ancestors for the most part came here during colonial times, so I don't have any first hand family folklore of discrimination, but I have lots of friends of Jewish, Irish, Italian, and German extraction who can tell stories of how rough it was for their immigrant forefathers when they got here.

I believe that one is accepted as American once he has no trace of an accent and little or no apparent connection to the "old country." However, some of my black, Asian, and Middle Eastern friends might say otherwise, even though their families have been here for generations.

Akagi -
"are to find me a second generation Hispanic born in the US of HS age that isn't fluent in English, doesn't like pizza, doesn't watch MTV"

Come to my neighborhood.

Illegal
Warrior:

Until 1882 there was no such thing as an illegal immigrant. And who was that? The Chinese. Legal Chinese immigration wouldn't be allowed again until 1942 (when the quota was set at 50). The National Origins Act of 1924 eliminated whole races of people. 86% of the quotas were given to northern Europe--the UK, Ireland, France and Germany and other northern European states. For example, before the act about 200,000 Italians would enter the US as immigrants, in 1924 it dropped to 4,000.

The act eliminated people from the Asia-Pacific basin, which included Japan and its colonies, China, the Philippines (even though it was a US colony at the time), Siam, Indochina, Singapore, Burma, India, Ceylon, Turkey, Malayia and the NEI. Non-whites were not able to immigrate to the US and were not eligible to be naturalized--any person not allowed to be naturalized was also ineligible to immigrate. Chinese naturalization wasn't allowed until 1942 and the Japanese in 1952.


Immigrants from Africa and Latin America were also banned. The act was racist at its very core. It was finally overturned in 1965--a act that many on TH whine about (which tells you much about them, no?)

Current immigrants come to work mostly. Benefits used by immigrants are less than those used by the native born.

jdw
even if your neighborhood is not like that , every single study on the subject indicates by the 2nd generation , hispanics are bilingual and by the third generation fluent.

English Usage Among Hispanics in the United States
Shirin Hakimzadeh and D'Vera Cohn, Pew Hispanic Center

Hispanic adults born in the United States of immigrant parents report they are fluent in English. By contrast, only a small minority of their parents describe themselves as skilled English speakers. This finding of a dramatic increase in English-language ability from one generation of Hispanics to the next emerges from a new analysis of six Pew Hispanic Center surveys conducted this decade among a total of more than 14,000 Latino adults. The surveys show that fewer than one-in-four (23%) Latino immigrants reports being able to speak English very well. However, fully 88% of their U.S.-born adult children report that they speak English very well. Among later generations of Hispanic adults, the figure rises to 94%. Reading ability in English shows a similar trend.


jdw
Being fluent in Spanish doesn't mean you can't speak English. Again, find me a native born HS student that can't speak English...sorry they don't exist.

And KATZ, they didn't have to sneak in, because for most of US history there has been open immigration for whites.

And as for learning English, not any faster than those today. In the Civil War, entire regiments of Germans who were given commands on the battlefield in German.






Akagi- 2
Find me the button on the telephone for "Gaelic" or "German". Find me the products with descriptions in Gaelic or German on them, particularly at Wal-mart. I've never walked into any store, particularly a Wal-mart, where all of the products on a given shelf had the instructions in German, French, Italian, Gaelic, Vietnamese, Chinese or Japanese. It's a heck of a thing when, in my own country, I have to spin around products to look at the backside to find descriptions and instructions in English!

Find me the restaurant that is trying to change normal food to match the ethnic eating habits of the Irish or Germans (e.g. wrapping various foods in a tortilla and giving it a Spanish-sounding name). I'm not talking about going to a Mexican restaurant either. I'm talking about Burger King.

Find me a SINGLE shopping center that has been converted to look like a German castle or an Irish crofter's hut. I'm still pist that the French Market Mall was covered in drivot and made to look like a hacienda/pueblo instead of something that might be found in, say, France in the 19th century. Diversity? All the buildings are becoming these drivot monstrosities.

I don't know of anyone who objects to elements of Mexican society being assimilated into our own. But that's not happening. We're not being given a choice, it's far more than just "elements", and it's not being assimilated..

Akagi - I repeat
"Being fluent in Spanish doesn't mean you can't speak English. Again, find me a native born HS student that can't speak English...sorry they don't exist."

As I said, come to my neighborhood.

Besides, regardless of nationality, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any American highschool student who can actually speak English. Grunt like a barbarian, yes. Speak English?

"And KATZ, they didn't have to sneak in, because for most of US history there has been open immigration for whites.

That's untrue.

And as for learning English, not any faster than those today. In the Civil War, entire regiments of Germans who were given commands on the battlefield in German."

Not in the Confederate Army.
Oh! Oh! And in the American Revolution, entire regiments of Germans were given commands in German.

They were called "Hessians" and they were mercenaries working for the oppressive gov't.
Talk about history repeating.

I guess corrupt gov'ts have a habit of hiring foreigners to fight their battles.

Mr Expert Akagi
who knows so darn little about so much...

What is your experience with illegals aliens?
How many of them have you been around, spoken to, lived and worked among?

How many? Your gardner? Your neighbor's nanny?

As I have said before, I have been around these people over a period of 20 years, in the workplace, on the construction sites, day after day.

Don't go preaching to me about how they're like all the immigrants who came before. They aren't.

They're the dregs of their society escaping... nothing. They're bringing the corruption of their culture with them.

Previous waves of refugees, the Irish escaping the starvation, the Jews escaping the war, the Vietnamese escaping the pogroms, were escaping oppressive governments or disasters not of their making. The difference this makes is we got people from all walks of life, all levels of culture, not just the dregs.

JDW
You don't shop at the right stores. Where I buy much of my food the goods are all in Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese as well as English.

If a Wal-Mart had a large population of Chinese speakers, you'd see the signs in Chinese. My bank ATM has a choice of Spanish, English, Russian or Chinese. The customer support desk" at Loweds is in English, Chinese, Spanish, and a number of others that I don't recall.

How many Irish in the 1840s spoke Gaelic anyway?

Germans basically favored the Union in the war. They called the Confederate Battleflag the Rattlesnake Flag (it was not a compliment),

And these weren't mercenaries but immigrants fighting for their country, just as other immigrants. And my statement was 100% true.

Until 1924 there were NO limits on WHITE immigration at all. And in 1924, the majority of the quotas--86% were for white immigrants from northern Europe. Italians and other southern Europeans that were seen as somewhat non-white were given very little quota numbers and the true non-white were banned completely as had been the case since the 1880s.


Religeouslib
The poll you cite is a CBS poll (that's a shocker!). That's the same CBS who takes a presidential poll and only polls

Here's one link for you: Democrats.http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190857,00.html

And here's the quote: "By eight-to-one, Americans think it is unfair to grant rights to illegal immigrants while thousands of people wait each year to come to the United States legally. Fully 86 percent of Republicans think it is unfair, as do 77 percent of Democrats."

Here's anohter one for you: http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1328

And here's that quote: "Slightly more than one in four respondents, meanwhile, believe they should be allowed to stay if they have jobs and pass background checks"

That means that 3/4 do not believe that they should be allowed to stay.

That's FOX and Zogby...I won't cite VDARE if you won't cite CBS.

Apology accepted.

My wish
Akagi, you've labelled my wish:

"In the Civil War, entire regiments of Germans who were given commands on the battlefield in German.""

I WISH FERVENTLY THAT THERE WERE ONLY A REGIMENT OF ILLEGAL ALIENS in the US today!

20 million is more than a regiment, fyi.

on tribalism II
jerabaub writes:
"Historically, the Japanese have had the distinction of being relatively insulated, and the population largely homogeneous. And that very homogeneity may have honed their special genius for bringing to the world a host of such superior consumer products. I admire them."

You might admire them, but they were very
tribal and ethnically diverse. Common sense,
think about it, it is an island nation, a
mountainous island nation.

The Meiji used nation building laws and practices
to bring the diverse tribes together. Their
success is remarkable and almost unparalleled

"Hong Kong's economy seems remarkably more vibrant than Britains', on a per capita basis especially. So your attribution that Britain is the cause for Hong Kong's spectacular success seems a bit of a stretch, notwithstanding my great admiration for my British cousins."

Hong Kong is now part of China.
It was part of Britain until 1997.


JDW
It not that I know so little, it is I am not blinded by jingoism.

The Chinese immigration of the 1880s were mostly poor peasants (almost the entire lot) who came from Guangdong and Guangxi. The Irish were again mostly the poor as was the Italians and all were heavily discriminated against and the same charges you hear now are the same charges you heard in the 1790s, the 1840s, the 1880s and the 1920s. I guess time to launch the Third Klan huh and teach these swarmy immigrants a lesson--that was the main purpose of the Second Klan after all.

Oh, most of my former neighborhood was made up of illegals actually. But to be honest, the biggest problems were the legal white trash and blacks than the Mexicans. My house was bought by a nice Hispanic family when I moved.






If you can read, JDW
I said regiments...that is plural..more than one.


and to everyonesfacts:

The Japanese before the Meiji restoration can't be considered "tribes" no more than the groups following this or that warlord at the end of the Qing and the start of the ROC could be.

Japan was not ethnically diverse properly understood.

and Yes. Hong Kong is an SAR of the PRC.

on tribalism II
"What about other former British colonies? India for most of its history since independence was viewed as extremely dysfunctional, with an anemic economy."

In short, because of mercantilism.

"You may continue to worship at the multicultural alter to your little heart's content, happy to be among those whose snouts are immersed in the diversity slop served up at the trough, but my point is still valid."

Your point is built on fallacies.

"If you examine the backgrounds of the people who conceived the inventions, scientific discoveries, medical breakthroughs, so essential to mankind over the last few hundred years, you will find the overwhelming preponderance to be from persons of Western European origin, especially Anglo-Saxons(including the Celts), but also including those of Italian and French backgrounds, along with Ashkenazi Jews."

Well the 2 most scientifically advanced countries
of the last 100 years were the USA and the USSR.
Which were or are not made of a single tribe.

Ashkenazi Jews? This goes against your whole
point.

on tribalism II
"Contributions of dead white males ARE why we are enjoying such long, healthy lives today, It is why our civilization is the envy of the world."

Dead white males?
Is white a tribe?
I think not. Not in Europe. That sounds like
a multi-racial multi cultural tribe if I ever
heard of one.
You're off topic or not supporting your argument.

And before this China was the center of
invention. Which has 55 legal minority groups.


"Dead white males are underappreciated.
They should be worshipped."

Jesus is, but he would be Jewish.
Are they white?
Does the KKK agree with your opinion?


In the Plessy vs. Ferguson case, John Marshall
Harlan writes:

"The white race deems itself to be the dominant race in this country. And so it is, in prestige, in achievements, in education, in wealth, and in power. So, I doubt not, it will continue to be for all time, if it remains true to its great heritage, and holds fast to the principles of constitutional liberty."

This as I understand it, I can agree with, but
they did it with help.

Two problems with the article
1. Then explain the US's continued success if only those states with a homogenous ethnic group avoid strife?

2. Buchanan skirts the problem with nationalism. Once the "slaves' have established a "pure slavic nation" the Bosnian decide the Serbs are "too different", and once the Bosnians have a "pure Bosnian state", subgroups start to differentiate. We end up with the "state of em and you, and I'm not so sure about you" as the end result.

Sorry, ethnic identity is a divisive tendency, it binds together a group only as long as they have a rival group, once that external foe is removed, the group itself fragments into ever smaller ethnic groups. (If you doubt this, look at Macedonian v. Greek strife, or any of the dozen ethnic conflicts in which no one outside of the conflict can differentiate the groups.)

Despite Buchanan's claims to the contrary, it was not ethnic realignment that brought peace to Europe. It was Commmunist occupation and the threat of nuclear war which brought peace.

Not saying ti was a good thing, but that is the truth. Half of Europe was at peace as it was under the communist heel, the rest was scared of communist invasion, and so we had peace. No ethnic realignment, just oppression and fear.

oops.

Where I wrote "slaves", read "slavs". Sorry about the typo.

everyone facts
So acknowledging the contributions of white males is now deemed "racist".

Interesting perspective.

Free yourself from your aversion of white males.

Look over significant inventions in the sciences and medicine over the past few hundred years. Even you must reluctantly concede the overwhelming majority were of those from Western European descent, including Jews.

Historically, Jews have not been known as great assimilators.

That is one reason so much resentment has arisen toward them.

They have kept to themselves.

Sometimes it was due to others placing them in ghettos. On other occasions they chose to keep to themselves, preserving their unique culture.

It is what it is.

I stand by what I said.

China has
China has 56, the Han (which make up 91%) and 55 others that make up the remaining 8. something percent.

And yes China from the before the Qin onward was the center of invention and one of the most if not the most advanced societies on earth...until the late Ming anyway.


It depends
"Look over significant inventions in the sciences and medicine over the past few hundred years. Even you must reluctantly concede the overwhelming majority were of those from Western European descent, including Jews."


First, how far you want to go back? Past few hundred years could be what 1200? 1500? When? If you look up in the sky a good number of stars have Arabic names, there is a reason for this. And as for medicine, western medicine is not the only form of medicine out there nor is it the only valid form.


Akagi
Are the Han really 91%? I thought the number was much smaller, especially given the north/south differentiation.

Also, even assuming your 91% is right, there are linguistic difference in addition to race. No way that any dialect is spoken by a majority as their first language. Yes, everyone (almost) speaks Mandarin to some degree, and many speak Cantonese, but as a primary language, there is no language/dialect which can claim even a simple majority.

As many of Europe's "ethnic" groups are more linguistic groups rather than anything else (distinguish a Frenchman from a German using anything but language. I dare you to do it) it seems using European "national" terms (that is a language/dialect group is an ethnic group), China is a quite divided nation.


orlandocajun
first of all my link was to pollingreport.com which is a round up of all polls.

as far as cbs versus v-dare or cis.
v-dare and cis make their money from conservative websites so they are going to give conservatives what they want to hear.

if i will accept fox you should accept cbs.

but and its a big but

you have used skewed questions.

the question at hand is
do the american people support earned citizenship using the immigration reform bill as the reference.

in other words, pay fines, learn english, and wait in line,

the polls you cited were worded differently.

To Clarify
I never really looked at the number of Han in China, so you could be right, I have never truly investigated it.

The reason I mention north-south divisions is that the Chinese rival the Italians for obsessively telling people whether they are from the north or the south. (India seems to come in third in this category. Though in the case of India, it seems northerners tell you more often than southerners, not sure what that means exactly, just my observation.)

So I was under the impression that some sort of racial divide would exist between north and south. If both are Han, then the constant emphasis seems a bit peculiar, but it is possible.

Well, hopefully that made what I said a bit more clear.


Yes. 91%
And Putonghua as it is called in China has 885 million first language speakers, so about 68% of the population...so yes a majority speak Mandarin as their first language.


Last One
Lest I get some irritated individual from China, Italy or India: When I say those three nations seem obsessed with north-south divides, I obviously do not mean all individuals. But in my experience, there are a lot of people form all three nations who do place a great deal of emphasis on coming from above or below a certain imaginary equator dividing their nation.

My mother in law, for example, imagined anyone from south of the Po was subhuman. (Odd, as her husband was from somewhere south of Rome.) On the other hand, another acquaintance from the tip of Calabria thinks pretty poorly of anyone from north of Naples. So, obviously the dividing line can shift depending on the speaker.

Oh and Andrews
The north-south divide is a cultural aspect, not an ethnic one. The majority in both the south and the north are still Han.


Akagi
Well, that answers one question, as far as the north-south division. I know in India's case it is both racial and cultural, and in Italy it is almost entirely cultural/linguistic. So, in China it is cultural.

As far as 68% speaking Mandarin, that still leaves China fairly fragmented in European terms of "ethnicity". If we accept the way "ethnic group" is defined in Europe (almost entirely on linguist lines), merging just the Cantonese speaking and Mandarin speaking areas is akin to merging France and Germany. So it is hard to see China as homogeneous, at least in the way "ethnic" groups are defined for Europe.

And to those who argue that Germans and French are different in anything but language, recall the Franks were a Germanic tribe, that in prehistory both the Celts and Gauls settled in Germany and France as well as England, northern Italy, and elsewhere, and that Germanic tribes repeatedly moved into France during the Roman period. So the "racial" history of both France and Germany are remarkably similar. Excepting language it would be hard to tell if someone drawn at random were German or French. (The fact that the Saar has been happily both French and German, ditto for Alsace, shows how difficult it is even for those obsessed with "race" to tell if Saarlanders and Alsatians are "racially" German or French.)

on tribalism III
jerabaub writes:
"So acknowledging the contributions of white males is now deemed "racist"."

By whom? You mentioned European ethnic groups,
not a "white race." If you can show me where
I called acknowledging contributions of the
white race is deemed racist I'd like to hear it.
I simply pointed out what you call white isn't
agreed on - and probably only applies to the
USA, and that would be debatable


"Free yourself from your aversion of white males."

What? How does this relate? Unclear.


"Look over significant inventions in the sciences and medicine over the past few hundred years. Even you must reluctantly concede the overwhelming majority were of those from Western European descent, including Jews."


Yes, and before that? And in the future?
I am not sure what the point is since Western
European is not a tribe. Is it? That was your
point at first. You do not have a consistent
argument at all. Ask a Frenchman what they are
do they say white? Or is it you that answers
for them?


"Historically, Jews have not been known as great assimilators."

So that tribe thing from before, your main point
is where?


"That is one reason so much resentment has arisen toward them.
They have kept to themselves."

I just thought you said they were the great
assimilators? Do they or don't they assimilate?



"Sometimes it was due to others placing them in ghettos. On other occasions they chose to keep to themselves, preserving their unique culture."

The great assimilators kept to themselves.
Your logic is clear as mud.



Not so much
Nothing like the Northern League sort of thing.

If you ask they will say China..if you ask..I know but where? Then, they'll say..oh north, or south or west. I mean what do you expect them to say? If for example I was from Changsha (and Myopine, I am not from Changsha, but I do like the food from there very very much) and you asked me..where you are you from..so I say China and you say I know...but where. I am not going to say Changsha..because I am sure you will have no idea where that is or Hunan because you will have no idea where that is..so I give you a general area..I'd say south...toward the center. Then maybe tell you it is northwest of Hong Kong or maybe kinda north of Vietnam. It isn't a ethnic thing or even a north-south thing, just a way to tell you where they are from since they assume (and for most Americans 100% correct) you'd have no idea where Changsha or Fuzhou was.


Buchanan
Is a moron. If nations can only thrive when they are dominated by s single ethnic group, then why is the most powerful nation in the world almost the most diverse?

How 'pure' do we need to be, Buchanan? I see you want to get rid of Hispanics, but what about Jews? Black people? Should we purge the Italians (surely, the Italians are more different than the original English settlers than most of the Slavic groups are from each other).

What about Greeks, do we give them the heave-ho? The Germans? They were a notoriously stubborn immigrant group, forming defiant little enclaves and refusing to learn English for a generation or two. And the Irish? They sure swarmed this country like locusts, didn't they? Why didn't the Irish bring us our downfall (though unfortunately, they brought us ignorant bigots like Patty).

This column is bunk. Our country has teemed with many different ethnic groups since our founding, and we have made it work, and will continue to. Current immigrants are assimilating at the same speed that immigrants have ALWAYS assimilated--no slower than Pat's ancestors.

The ironic thing is that Pat's ancestors were the victims of the same kind of nativists he has now become (check out the movie 'Gangs of New York').

I thought Buchanan had toned down the racism in recent years, but I see he is as bigoted as he always was.

Dialects
From a lingustic point of view China is very fragmented as well as an ethnic one--even if the Han dominate. There are hundreds of these languages--Guangdonghua (Cantonese) Minnanhua--aka Taiyu; aka Hokkien (Taiwanese); Minbeihua (aka Fukienese), Hainanhua, Taishanhua, Wufangyan (Shanghainese), Kejiahua (Hakka),etc.

You can be in one province and go over one range of mountians and they will speak a different "dialect" there than where you were before. These happened due to long periods without being in contact with other speakers. Mandarin is actually a fairly recent language. Chinese as spoken in the Tang or Song would have most likely sounded like Taiwanese or Cantonese.

But dispite the lingustic difference, China has mostly been unified more than not since 221 b.c. and outside of Xinjiang and XIzang (Tibet) which are an ethnic, religious clash and Taiwan (which has never really been part of China except for the period 1945-1949), most of the provinces even that speak a different dialect and have large non-Han populations still favor a unified China.






Akagi
I will agree, as a nation/kingdom, China has been more unified (until the period at the open of the 20th century) than any other region of comparable size.

My main thought was that, were China transported to Europe, and the linguistic differences translated into those we could understand easily (replace Mandarin with English, Cantonese with Spanish, etc.) it would appear that China violates Buchanan's thesis, as the nation is quite unified, and for most of its history quite successful in any meaning of the term, yet if it were a European nation it would be quite ethnically diverse.

So it seems, like the US, to go against the central thesis of Buchanan's essay.

the views of the body politic
The general public overwhelmingly favors REAL immigration reform (BUT not Scamnesty posing as "C.I.R."). Poll after poll shows that Americans want well-enforced, sensible, and sustainable immigration laws and LEGAL immigration of the educated and skilled who can be positive contributors on balance.

* 89% of Americans think illegal immigration into the U.S. is a problem (30% "extremely serious," 33% "very serious," and 26% "somewhat serious." (Time Magazine, 2006)

* 82% think that not enough is being done along the borders to keep illegal immigrants from crossing into the country. (New York Times/CBS 2007)

* 68% feel that the number of immigrants who cross the border, whether legal or illegal is “too high”. (Polling Company, 2006)

* 62% oppose making it easier for illegal immigrants to become citizens of America. (Quinnipiac Univ., Feb. 2006)

*71% believe that illegal immigrants should not qualify for in-state tuition rates at colleges and universities.

*77% oppose making drivers' licenses available to illegal immigrants.

*71% favor requiring foreign visitors to carry universal I.D. card.

*77% say that employers can require English-only on the job, and 89% favor making it the official/only language of government

The PC ilk, the MSM, ethnocentric Hispanic groups, and the open borders, globalist, miscreant employer types barrage us with disingenuous info, but Middle America IS righteously indignant about ILLEGALS. If not stopped and reversed via enforcement of EXISTING laws, which would lead to attritive repatriation, they will morph us into a third world barrio.

oops
Read what I want to read.
My bad.

Misread "not the great assimilators"


Not that it makes a difference to jerabub's
argument since he was claiming that tribes were
the engine of science, as I can gather.

So if the Jews did not assimilate then were they
part of the white or Western European tribe or not?

What about Eastern Europeans?
Are they white but not part of Western European,
obviously. And Central Europe?

This white thing isn't clear
I get the male and dead part. But when you talk
about Europeans white doesn't make sense. unless
we're strictly talking about skin pigment and
not racial idenity.

everyones facts
It makes perfect sense to say resentment of Jews occurred among non Jews because of Jewish traditions of keeping to themselves.

Intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews historically has been limited, which is precisely why Jews thru the ages have managed to maintain their cultural identity.

Jewish dietary laws, other religious practices, contributed to perception of Jews as being apart from the indigenous population.

I am not absolving Jews of culpability in the consequences that arose from that desire to remain apart, by the way.

Nazis and others placed Jews into ghettos.

My previous post said nothing about Jews being great assimilators.

In fact, I said the opposite.

You need to concentrate more on your reading skills.

Practice makes perfect.

jerabub
Yes, my bad.

But it still does not clarify your post.

And it is becoming increasingly vague what
you mean in supporting tribalism.


According to your argument any race or tribe
that is kept together or inside another would
have a scientific or technological advantage.

Is that it?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Where are the Icelanders in all this?
Compare to America.
Or Islamic Spain or Roman Empire.

The purity equals creativity quotient is low.

everyones facts
My posting of 12:07 only said Jews, along with non-Jews of west European origin, have contributed a great deal in terms of scientific inventions and discoveries. Nowhere did I say they were of the same tribes. Only that they each contributed a great deal.

I am glad you admit you are prone to "misreading".

As with alcoholism, the first step is in admitting one has a problem.

booshanan
The equating of European states to the USA is a
weak one. And not meaningful.

Every study I know shows Hispanic immigrants fully
assimilating in 3 generations just like all past
immigrant groups to the USA.

Chinese unity
Yes. China does blow apart his thesis, but he would argue that China's unity was done at the point of a spear (Qin Shi Huang) and kept there by a point of a gun (see Xizang and the claims on Taiwan).

There has also been periods of Chinese disunity since 221 b.c. The period between the Han and Sui (and during the Han itself), the Song when the Jurchen sacked Kaifeng and forced the Song to flee south to Nanjing (where the ROC would years later establish its capital at well) and thus creating the Southern Song (and the Jin in the north). Also you have two periods of non-Han rule of China--the Yuan dynasty (the Mongols) and the Qing dynasty (the Manchu). During the Qing you had western powers pulling parts of China under their control from at least 1841 and then the Japanese in the 1930s (or 1895 if you count Taiwan) and of course the warlords at the end of the Qing and during the Republican period and the Chinese Civil War.


Taiwan too
Taiwan also disproves his point. Although 98% of Taiwan's residents are Han, 85% of Taiwanese are considered "native" Taiwanese, those that came to Taiwan between the 14th century and 1895 known as Benshengren. Of this 70% are Hokkien or Minnan and came from Fujian and 15% Kejia or Hakka who also came from Fujian and Guangdong. The 13% or so are mainlanders or waishengren and came from all over China between 1945 and 1949 (and a few others who came in 1953 and a few since the late 1980s via marriage).

There is also the 2% of aboriginal Taiwanese that are related to the aboriginals from the Philippines. Once known as Shanditongbao (the Mountian comrades) or Shandiren (Mountian people), but now known as the Yuanzhumin or first people. Nine tribes which speak 9 different languages.

While 2-28 and the white terror was a very bad time and the Yuanzhumin had always had it rough, relations between the groups today is very harmonous and now there is also the concept of New Taiwanese. As marriages between Taiwanese and non-Chinese from SE Asia, India, the Philippines, Europe and the US and Canada, many of these new immigrants are gaining ROC citizenships and taking on a Taiwanese identity-something Lee Teng Hui coined as the New Taiwanese--a concept of national identity and not based on racial or ethnic membership--thus non-Asians make up this new group--the New Taiwanese.

Relations between the various groups in Taiwan has been fairly calm for 40 years or more. Disputes are political, not ethnic.


fwiw
when I misread something and know it I say so.

The tribal thing and the Jews does not make sense
for your argument in any way, shape, or form

They were creative and they lived in and amongst
other tribes.

Thus, what?

Let's have Hispanics immigrate because they will
be successful either staying together or assimilating.

As most know who study the Holocaust many Jews
would not have called themselves Jews, but
something else, such as German. Or as some
said I was a Jew, but I still had bacon and ham
for breakfast.
So where does tribe come in to play there?

FWIW I do not believe tribe has anything to do
with creativity as much as culture and education.
I think history would prove this and so will the
future not that I can predict that.

China
would split if populations had a choice -
self-determination anyone - but people understand
the power of the fist - I Will Fight No More
Forever anyone?

China
Taiwan (which isn't part of China anyway) Xizang and Xinjiang would, but the rest of China would stay put and that is the vast majority of the state. It isn't the fist either, few Chinese would support say Hunan going off on its own, no more than Americans would support Georgia doing it.


Katz and Warrior
Every person,who comes to our country,has a story.But it appears, that your stories, have been made the standard for Citizenship.You inherited a great story,but not a "REALITY" for others.The Constitution does not require such a narrow path,as yours.We are the "SUPER POWER" of the world.After this type discussion,one must wonder are we to go forward or backward.Which begs yet another question.Who will take "US" there?I would hate to think,our courage has been lost,so SOON!!!Only a "FOOL", borrows his reality from 108 years, in the past.

Akagi
Yes and Tibet well before massive immigration.

Perhaps even parts of Manchuria.

Other islands could or possibly would to.

But I agree with you, as a professor I had used to
say sure they'll let Tibet go just as soon there is
a historical precedent of a strong land empire
voluntarily letting land they claim as theirs go.

Not going to happen.

Misconceptions abound
When Pat writes, miconceptions swarm like aroused Bees whose hive has been attacked.There is no known science attributing instinct to humans, behavior is learned over time. The means of production and industry which produced real wealth were taken early on by WASPS in this great Country while the police and other mid level goverment jobs were picked up by the nationalities who came after, see Irish, Italians,ect.
There is nothing new under the sun, and there will always be them and us. We have a great experiment which worked when people of different group's exsistence was not in danger; such thinking is no longer the case. Pat is right!

Manchukuo
There is no such thing as Manchuria. Go look at the ethinc breakdown of Heilongjiang or Jilin or Liaoning or Neimenggu or Hebei and then tell me anypart of it is going to leave China.

Islands? What islands? Hainan?

peace and comity
"Europeans concluded that nationalism was a danger and gradually abandoned it."

"only after the triumph of ethnonationalism, after the peoples of Europe had sorted themselves out and each achieved its own home."


Came when the mandated denationalization after WWII resulted in the well established European decline which resulted in loss of population and the loss of any of the intestinal fortitude it takes to grow, claim their right to exist and improve their existence.
Europe became peaceful as they began to die.

Since Europe is willing to joyfully meet that good soft night, they're naturally being replaced by those who are willing to grow and dominate, improvement for Islam is Sharia.

And, improvement for many Hispanics now here, isn't the American culture that built the greatest nation ever known.

Conservatism is ethnonationalism
Conservatism in the United States is American ethnonationalism. Call it tribal, call it atavistic, it matters not. Ethnonationalism is simply a characteristic of human societies. People are atttracted to and attached to 'their own,' whether in ancient times or right now.

I see no point in deploring this, as political scientist Jerry Muller does. Ethnonationalism need not lead to genocide and savagery. Whether it does depends upon all sorts of things, not the least of which are opportunity and militant ideological politics.

American ethnonationalism is unusual in at least one respect: it depends upon a cultural/ideological understanding of "American" as the name of a distinct ethnicity. While academic purists will reject this idea, my view is that it comes very close to how many, perhaps most, Americans actually think and feel about their identity, certainly in relation to other peoples around the world.

American "ethnicity" is what results from a few generations of the traditional 'melting pot' at work. This work goes on, in spite of what some leftist multiculturalists believe and want. No group of immigrants, no matter where it's from, has ever been able to keep itself from marrying into the already well-mixed American population, thereby continuing the melting pot process.

"Ethnonationalism" is the politically conscious and organized expression of this identity. Its symbols are the familiar items of American patriotism. It belongs politically on the Right, as do all examples of ethnonationalism.

There have been powerful nations of
diverse etnic groups, but always in spite of, rather than because of the diversity. Typically, as soon as some unique uniting factor disappeared (Alexander,Ghengis Khan, Tito) the"nation" collapsed and fragmented. This country is successful so far as it recognizes and supports the American Dream, embodied in the constitution and defended by men aware of how lucky they are to be here. This situation is not necessarily immutable. Some people want lots of change.

Long Live Tribalism
Before this century is out the Diversity-worshipers and the soft spineless multiculturalists and the weenie-liberals who drip "compassion" and drizzle "love for all humanity" are GOING TO GET A BELLY FULL of that soft mushy crap, because in all probablity they going to have to bear the price of their ideology
in their FLESH, and if not in their flesh, most certainly in their wallet.

Robert Conquest said the world Westerners want to feed and pet is not a sweet little pony, but a vile tempered mule.

And that vile tempered mule has already taken Europe, and is on the way to America.

Message to the soft mushy liberal ignoramuses:
Tell me about your committment to "humanity"
AFTER humanity gets through with your FLESH
and your WALLET. Then I'll listen.

Meanwhile this message to all liberals: G.F.Y.

Oh and PS
Long live Tribalism and nationalism. May it NEVER die.

And you can rest assured that it will not.

THE NATURE OF MULTICULTURALISM I
There are two models of multiculturalism: [1] the traditional American model of the "melting pot" and [2] the radical leftist "salad basket" model.

In the melting pot model, the public square is occupied a single unifying culture to which all citizens broadly subscribe. Alternatives forms of cultural expression are a private matter for the individual(s) concerned.

In the salad basket model, a multiplicity of "separate but equal" cultures concurrently occupy the public square. Shake a salad basket as long as you like, the vegetables therein will remain separate.

Leftists are not nationalists, but INTERNATIONALISTS. By promoting a culture where nobody can agree on a common set of ideals, they ensure that nobody will fight to defend that society against the imposition of global socialism.

Why we as heirs of a successful WASP
culture would even flirt with the idea of inundating our nation with the inferior Hispanic societies with which we share a hemisphere is beyond me. Unless the rejection of Protestantism leaves a people with only shame to worship, which perhaps entails a suicide fettish.

If the Ruskies can get their birthrate back up (and 2007 was the best year since 1991), they just may fulfill Kruschev's prophecy after all. When you walk the streets of Moscow and St. Petersburg you see unapologetic displays of an ancient and storied white (gasp!) nation. Russia has self respect; we need to learn from them.

THE NATURE OF MULTICULTURALISM II
Marxist-Leninists are expert at identifying social currents that they can support and direct in order to overthrow the existing society and replace it with a model of their own choosing.

Around 1913, Lenin and Stalin worked out that Czarist Russia was made up of perhaps 50 percent ethnic Russians, with the balance being upwards of 80 different subject peoples, who'd been colonised and forcibly Russified over about 500 years.

In order to expand the Bolshevik support base, Lenin and Stalin promised these groups "the right to manage their own affairs," "the right to speak, read, write, use and be taught in their own language," "the right to control their own economic destiny" etc. This is called "the National Question" and is one of the most secret and little-known Marxist-Leninist subversion tactics.

After WWI the large multinational empires of Austro-Hungary and Russia were no more, so the Communists turned the National Question towards splitting the capitalist nations off their colonies.

THE NATURE OF MULTICULTURALISM II
Marxist-Leninists are expert at identifying social currents that they can support and direct in order to overthrow the existing society and replace it with a model of their own choosing.

Around 1913, Lenin and Stalin worked out that Czarist Russia was made up of perhaps 50 percent ethnic Russians, with the balance being upwards of 80 different subject peoples, who'd been colonised and forcibly Russified over about 500 years.

In order to expand the Bolshevik support base, Lenin and Stalin promised these groups "the right to manage their own affairs," "the right to speak, read, write, use and be taught in their own language," "the right to control their own economic destiny" etc. This is called "the National Question" and is one of the most secret and little-known Marxist-Leninist subversion tactics.


THE NATURE OF MULTICULTURALISM III
After WWI the large multinational empires of Austro-Hungary and Russia were no more, so the Communists turned the National Question towards splitting the capitalist nations off their colonies.

Ethnic and minority groups were encouraged by Marxist-Leninists to demand "self-determination." The Communist goal was to promote the demise of capitalism by severing the capitalist nations from their sources of cheap labour and raw materials.

As well, the Communists could take advantage of political unrest in the newly independent states to install Communist regimes.

At the bottom of demands for ethnic separatism anywhere in the world, you will find Marxist-Leninist ideology and its promoters.

I'll say it again--
Speaking of assimilation, My and my wife's grandparents came legally to the US right before the Bolshevik revolution. They came from Russia, Norway and Denmark around the same time. They were teen age peasants who received no food stamps, free medical care, had to learn English the best they could and were very happy to become Americans. They paid for everything they received, paid their taxes, and when they had children, the children were born with the help of a member of the family or a neighbor. Not like the illegals who have their anchor babies on our dime. They made certain their children learned English (yes they taught their children their ethnic languages, but only spoke them at home)/ No press one for English or 2 for their ethnic languages. They did not demand bilingual education. If they got sick or hurt, they either got well on their own or perished. Yes a couple of them did. But they did not blame anyone or sue anyone.
They were of strong stock due to their proud Viking heritage and believed in one of the Viking proverbs, "a good anvil does not fear the hammer, but if you are the hammer, strike hard and fast."
So in closing, if any of the illegal alien whiners and apologists want to send us a large money order to cover the taxes that be pay just in our community for the medication, education, nutrition, and encarceration of the illegals in our area, please do so. BTW we live in a border state in a town that recently became known as a sanctuary city.

Study: Immigrants commit less crime
Foreign born immigrants commit less crime than US born nationals.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080226/us_nm/usa_immigration_c rime_dc

Statistics
that show illegal alien crime rates are lower don't make a hill of beans worth of difference because every crime committed by an illegal alien is a crime that is preventable.

When the crime committed be an illegal alien is brutal and bloody thats a crime that reminds us of the failure of our government to fulfill their sworn responsibility to keep us safe.

Not one painted house, neatly mowed lawn or guilt appeased bleeding heart is worth even one American life, much less the many thousands of lives of maimed, raped and lost American lives suffered each and every year.
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