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Tuesday, September 25, 2007
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Infantile Nation
by Pat Buchanan
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Does this generation possess the gravitas to lead the world?

Considering the hysteria that greeted the request of Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to lay a wreath at Ground Zero, the answer is no.

What is it about this tiny man that induces such irrationality?

Answer: He is president of a nation that is a "state sponsor of terror," that is seeking nuclear weapons, and is moving munitions to the Taliban and insurgents in Iraq.

But Libya was a "state sponsor of terror," and Col. Khadafi was responsible for Pan Am 103, the Lockerbie massacre of school kids coming home for Christmas. And President Bush secretly negotiated a renewal of relations in return for Khadafi giving up his nuclear program and compensating the families of the victims of that atrocity. Has Ahmadinejad ever committed an act of terror like this?

Richard Nixon went to Moscow and concluded strategic arms agreements while Moscow was the arms supplier of the enemy we were fighting in Vietnam that used, at Hue, mass murder as a war tactic.

Nixon went to Beijing to toast Mao Zedong, the greatest mass murderer in history, responsible for the deaths of 37,000 Americans in Korea, who was, in 1972, persecuting and murdering dissidents in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution run by his crazed wife, and transshipping Russian weapons into Vietnam.

And Nixon is today hailed as a statesman for having gone there.

In 1959, President Eisenhower rode up Pennsylvania Avenue in an open convertible with Nikita Khrushchev, Stalin's gauleiter in Ukraine, who, three years before his tour of the United States, had sent tanks into Budapest to butcher the patriots of the Hungarian Revolution.

What has Ahmadinejad done to rival these monsters?

It would be an obscenity, we are told, if Ahmadinejad were allowed to place a wreath at Ground Zero. This is a public relations stunt that should never be permitted.

That the Iranian president has PR in mind is undoubtedly true. Much of what national leaders do is symbolic. But that wreath-laying would have said something else, as well.

It would have said that, to Iran, these Americans were victims who deserve to be honored and mourned and, by extension, the men who killed them were murderers. Bin Laden celebrates 9-11. So do all America-haters. By laying a wreath at Ground Zero, the president of Iran would be saying that in the war between al-Qaida and the United States, he and his country side with the United States.

How would we have been hurt by letting him send this message?

To the hysteriacs, Ahmadinejad is the new Hitler and we are all at Munich, and we should behave like Churchill and gird for war.

This is absurd.

True, as The Washington Times charges, Ahmadinejad invited David Duke to Tehran to a conference of Holocaust deniers, and his minions chant, "Death to America" and "Death to Israel."

But every mob in the Middle East shouts such slogans. And Duke was the Republican candidate for governor of Louisiana in 1991 and got a majority of the white vote. And Holocaust deniers meet regularly in the United States. Yet, we seem to survive.

Far more serious was the threat of Khrushchev in 1956 to rain down rockets on Britain in the Suez crisis and his "We-will-bury-you" rant. Still, JFK met him in Vienna and negotiated a test-ban halt.

Far more serious was Mao's talk, after the Cuban missile crisis, of accepting "300 million dead" in a nuclear war -- talk that scared even Khrushchev. Fidel Castro reportedly urged the Russians to fire their rockets rather than give them up. Those were deadly serious times.

Hitler could destroy the Jewish population of Europe because he was able to conquer Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. Iran has no air force or navy we could not dispatch in a week and no nukes. Israel has 200 to 300 nuclear warheads and, if it believed its survival was at stake, could turn Tehran into toast in 10 minutes.

Why does Iran want nuclear weapons if it doesn't want to use them? For the same reason Israel wanted them: deterrence.

After seeing what America did to its non-nuclear neighbor Iraq, which had done nothing to America, and after hearing Bush call them an axis-of-evil nation and prime candidate for U.S. pre-emptive strikes, a not-unreasonable ayatollah might conclude they need nuclear weapons, or the Americans will be dictating to them forever.

America and Iran have great differences, but also common interests. Among the latter, no Taliban in Kabul, no restoration of a Sunni Baathist dictatorship in Baghdad and support for the present governments. Iran cannot want a Sunni-Shia war in the region, which would make her an enemy of most Arabs, and she cannot want a major war with America, which could lead to the destruction and breakup of the nation where only half the people are Persians.

That is plenty to build a cold peace on, if the hysteriacs do not stampede us into another unnecessary war.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Pat is right...
Ahmadinejad has offered us peace in our time. There is no reason to suspect him of simply using stall tactics to strengthen his position; whoever heard of a statesman doing that? Ahmadinejad wanted us to understand that he is our dear friend, and as Pat points out, Ahmadinejad wants to be known as a trusted ally in our war against radical Islam.

To make amends for our bad manners, we should now offer to supply Iran with nuclear technology equal to our own, and even supply them with a quantity of ICBM's just to prove that we really do trust them. Iran will no longer need to fear our nuclear capabilities, and that will mean our two nations can live as brothers.

If we can show the Muslims how much we cherish their ways, they will set aside their jihad and embrace us with love and kindness, just as they do with others that are different from them.

We Are Not Chameleons
When I took a public speaking course in college, films of Hitler were shown to illustrate how a speaker can rile up his audience. That didn't mean the teacher was trying to convert us to being Nazis. Yesterday I made lasagna. It didn't turn me into an Italian. I have some tapes of Cuban music: listening to the Lecuona Cuban Boys doesn't make me a follower of Fidel Castro. I don't understand this idea that hearing Ahmadinejad is dangerous, as if he is going to endanger our Americanism. Are we chameleons, that turn the color of whatever surface they are on? We know who we are---are we so easily influenced by anyone who speaks?

Ahmadinejad is not a sympathetic character. I posted earlier today that when I saw him last night on 60 Minutes I thought he resembled a rat, with hard glittering black eyes, lots of of teeth, and an utter lack of projected warmth. I found his eyes scary (this was the closest-up shot of him I had ever seen). His affect was insulting---he grinned and laughed all through the interview. He danced around every question, giving a straight answer to none of them, and thus he disrespected the interviewer and the millions he knew were watching. Who would be influenced by such a person? I say let him appear freely in the United States, and let people see what this man is. It comes through loud and clear.

Pat - set the example.
Since Iran has only the best of intentions for us, and if the Muslims have no problem coexisting with non-believers, then perhaps Pat will make a point to all of the "hysteriacs" by planning an extended stay in Iran. He can walk the streets while wearing his American flag lapel pin, and let all of the people he encounters know just what a great bunch of peaceful people he thinks they are. I am certain he will prove that our fears are for naught.

Oh, and Pat, be sure to drop by for the afternoon lynching of the guys they don't have, the tongue removing of the dissenters in the square, and stop by Ahabs Bazaar and pick up a nifty burka for the Missus. Then reserve two seats for the return flight, one for you, and one for your noggin.

PS - Good thing Chamberlain wasn't a "hysteriac" eh?

Thank God
that Pat didn't get elected President. The man is a nutcase. Has he actually listened to what this fellow nutcase is saying?

Pat you must be pulling a loyal democrat
or maybe you're serious in which case your not even getting close to the Presidency was one of the best things that ever happened to this nation.

You know Pat, sometimes I totally agree
with you and sometimes I just scratch my head in amazement.

The pain from 9/11/2001 lingers like an old injury that still aches in cold damp weather. The villian who wanted to come here and lay a wreath in "The Pit" has not shown any sympathy for those who were brutally murdered that infamous day, and continues to insult our nation, threaten our friends and kill our troops.

If Ahmadinejad was sincere in his desire to make nice with us, he would have made some kind of overture toward us before now.

While I don't think we should behave like angry villagers with torches and pitchforks, neither should we have permitted this man in our country.

Tom
Was this written by Pat Buchanan or Commander Spoc of the starship enterprise?? People are mad for a reason - and if they're being "overreactionary" it's only to counter the slimy multi-culturalism which permeates the leftist ideology of our nation today.

Letting him speak at Columbia
accomplished what you suggest, Mr. Buchanan; not letting him near ground zero accomplished what his critics wanted.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Liberal Larva
Not worth a cup of warm spit.

Hopefully I'll be in my grave before these children take over. The "gimme-gimme" generation of liberals wanting only to be left alone to become professional students.

They'd surrender their freedom faster than Rosie O'Donnell cleaning up at a Golden Corral buffett.

Pat the Anti-Semite
Pat is a pathological anti-semite, it's in his blood, and that is the main reason why he thinks a horrible dictator who denies the holocaust and is working towards a second holocaust should be allowed on Ground Zero. Why is this hateful fascist allowed on Townhall? This is not a matter of free speech. Debate about Genocide for a whole people, whether with Ahmadinajad or Buchanan is not a matter of free speech and is utterly unacceptable.
Mark

Buchanan article - yet again?
This article by Buchanan is not analysis but rationalization. Characterizing visceral reactions that grasp the nature of the jihad menace--in the face of its plain words and barbaric deeds--as hysteria doesn't change one whit of the facts of what the West faces. The blind application of traditional conservative notions of prudence and restraint in the current crisis is the opposite of humility and prudence--it is arrogance par excellence. The smug tone that accompanies so much of what Pat says and writes betrays this attitude. He is not a patriot.

Gabby
The right tramples our "rights?"

Really?

Can you provide me with quotes from right-wing leaders who have said such?

Here are several for your heroes Bubba and Hitlary in regards to trampling our "rights."

1. "I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president."
(I guess supeonas are for other people!)

2. "We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." (AH, thanks Hitlary. Thanks for taking away my Freedom of Choice!)

3. When asked what's wrong with letting local school districts decide how best to spend federal education dollars, President Clinton replied, "because it's not their money." BTW, WHO is standing in the way of SCHOOL VOUCHERS and FREEDOM OF CHOICE? Liberals of course.

4. "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles"
March 1, 1993, Bill Clinton. (So much for the Second Amendment and the RKBA)

5. "the purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people" Bill Clinton, during an interview on MTV in 1993 (Liberals going after ALL the rights at ONCE!)

6. "You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say." President William Clinton addressing the people of Philadelphia, May 28, 1993 in the Courtyard, City Hall, Philadelphia, PA. (Nothing like muzzling Freedom of Speech huh Bubba?)

Gabby, you WILL let me know if you need more examples of liberals trampling on people's rights won't you?

Windex
Pat's crystal ball needs a good cleaning. His last paragraph is a joke by his omissions, examine: "Iran cannot want a Sunni-Shia war in the region". If that statement is the thrust of the Iranian maneuvering throughout the ME, why are they arming, training, and funding the Mahdi Militia in Iraq, the Hezbollah in Lebanon, and Hamas in the Gaza. Windex your ball Pat, sit a little closer to it, and squint. It might help you see the truth.

The Big 444
The proper action when Ahmadinejad comes to this country would be to arrest him, put him in Guantanamo for 444 days (the exact amount of time he held our embassy employees hostage--if we are convinced he was involved), turn a deaf ear to the worldwide condemnations by the liberals at home and abroad, and then release him at the end of that time. An "eye for an eye".

Holy Cow!!
Hysteriacs? Pat, you need to clean out the cob-webs, man. Sawgunner and LD have it correct. What ever happended to War: When men were men and you never had to say you were sorry? Gabby, ya have a few screws loose, dear...why don't you join Pat on that flight to Iran, hey?

Buchanan Has Totally Lost It
Buchanan, with this column, shows that he has totally lost it. The objection to Ahmadinejad going to Ground Zero is quite rational and proper. Ahmadinejad represents the Shiite wing of radical Islam, for which the Great Satan is America and the Little Satan is Israel. It was the Sunni wing of radical Islam that brought down the World Trade Towers, but the Shiite wing is very much in hostilities with us, supplying bombs and other munitions to attack American troops in Iraq. Ground Zero is no place for Ahmadinejad.

Pat's Facts
Pat stated, " Nikita Khrushchev, Stalin's gauleiter in Ukraine". The implication is Khrushchev was the big killer in the Ukraine, he was not, Lazar Kaganovich was Stalin's point man in this atrocity. Kaganovich is reported to have killed 14 million Ukrainians, and interestingly Kaganovich was a Jew.

Wow
You people want war. It's like a sickness.

Why is Pat such a traitor for looking for a way to avert a war with Iran?

He's saying that there are other ways. It worked with much worse people, people like Mao and Krushchev. Why would anyone NOT want to investigate other methods.

And the visit to ground zero. If Ahmadinejad visited and did what he said he intended to do, this would go a long way towards making peace with Iran.

If, on the other hand, he visited and made a mockery of the site, so what? He's a sick man, and Pat's point is valid. Is our collective ego so fragile that we are not willing to risk potentially being insulted to potentially avert a war?

If that's the case, get over yourself.

May God Have Mercy Upon Us All
.

Pat has lost it
This terrorist was involved in the invasion of our embassy in Tehran and participated in that hostage crisis....an act of war. American Embassy property in any country is US soil. Yeah Pat, you would have appeased Hitler too....which cost hundreds of millions of lives. Hitler should have been killed in 1938...and this pipsqueak should be killed now!!!

Pat: suppose noose around priests
when watching CNN last nite and Iran guy asked whether HS in iran; he said no; and they split the screen and showed noose around two HS. Pat does not have much use for them.

But I wonder if instead two nuns in their old habitat had nooses around their neck just for being nuns. Would he write the same column. I have a suspicion not.

and besides
And besides, if Iran uses its nuclear missiles on Israel and wipes it out and all Israel gets to do is to lob some missiles from a ship at Iran as a slap across the face, what's it to Buchanan? 5 million more Jews killed, and 1 million Arabs, and poisoned water and poisoned air, it is not a scratch on Buchanan's face. The oil in Iran may go up in a puff of smoke, now that would not put a smile on Buchanan's face. The fact that Syria already got nuclear material from N Korea means that Iran can get nuclear material from N Korea as well. That just moved the danger up from a max window of 10 years to a min window of 3 years, to perhaps the next birthday of the 12th imam.

Pat wants to believe everything the little rat says including the lies that he spoke at Columbia. How does he know that he wants to honor Americas' dead, and not honor the 19 Muslims?

And if anyone wants to see what Ahmadinejad says to Persians, go to Youtube and look at Death to Israel. Usually whenever Ah says death to Israel, it is followed by death to the US and death to Britain. And he has threatened US targets with his missiles, maybe not the continental US but targets that are of interest to the US elsewhere, who knows, Saudi Arabia, Dubai. Ask a military person what US targets there are around the Middle East. Well who cares, eh Pat? It won't be you so if there are more Americans killed, yawn, British killed zzzz. Pass the clams and the champagne. Don't wake me before 8.


Infantile Nation
Pat you should know better than that, you are a historian and one of the most inteligent comentators and writers. But after all this talk you know that it is all about Israel.
Arabs are determined to eliminate that nation some day one way or another. That is their mission. We are the only nation who trully supports the Jewish state.

Don't question the script.
Socalled "rightwing" radio talk-show hosts have, in their formerly nicotined-stained hands, the official party-line from the administration. And we all know what it is: Ahmadinejhad is evil, the personification of Satan.

The drumbeat, formerly reserved for Saddam, now resonates for Ahmadinejad...in our never-ending quest for villains.

One would think when Sunni radicals in Al Qaida attacked us with such devastation on 9/11, the administration would not be searching for more villains to vanquish. They would be dealing with the ones responsible for 9/11, before conjuring up others.

Alas, such is not the case. Even as the smoke and embers of 9/11 were still evident, the administration was already plotting to take out Saddam. And now that Saddam is history, the administration is frothing at the mouth to make the case to take out the Iranian leadership. Meantime, Al Qaida has reconstituted itself, and is more a threat than ever before, and has no trouble recruiting jihadists.

I have no illusions that Iran would like to dominate Iraq.

But given that our invasion removed Iran's implacable enemy(Saddam), why wouldn't the Iranians exploit this golden opportunity delivered by President Bush to the Persian nation on a silver platter, especially since both nations are Shia?

Typical Neocons
The man has spoken an opinion, but he's based it on facts and precedents.

Apparently nobody has anything else to say excpet that he's just wrong, and calling him names.

You are the same people that insisted there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, right?

Now we're supposed to believe that a small country with no army or navy is a serious threat to us?

You people would be laughable if you weren't so absolutely darned intent on starting Armageddon early.

Pat, you are infantile
I think your agenda has clouded your judgement because you both have something in common--the destruction of Israel.

Cognitive people were not hysterical, I think we were more angry that we let this terrorist who has murdered thousands, assist Iraqi's with weaponry to murder our troops and wants death to Israel and the US--that we let him fly into our airzone and land, be treated like a prince, and speak at a college.

We should've been arresting him and getting the waterboard.

Pat's seeking
recognition by making absurd suggestions.......constantly seeking to avoid the truth of a ruthless, murdering, butchering killer.........who should not even be allowed in America.

At what point do we say enough is enough and pound the pi.. out of Iran?


Paint me Paranoid
I can't help but think that the figurehead and chorus leader of the Iranian people wouldn't be visiting GZ to honor our dead but to offer a wreath in praise of the 19.

Anyone that believes different, well, you've a wonderfully NAIVE heart.

angelatc
If the worst happens and we bring you the dead body of an irradiated Israeli child, I am willing to bet that you will still refuse to admit the truth and think is was a Zionist conspiracy, or just shrug your shoulders and say "well it's too late now, what do you want me to do about it? Pass the hamburgers and ketchup and Pepsi." That is until the price of oil rises which means the price of gas rises and then you'll be screaming "It's all George W's fault."

Avert WW III? "That might take some energy and I might miss my football and baseball games on TV."

Israel destroyed Iraq's nuclear factories. Israel destroyed Syria's nuclear stockpile but you've got one reply, I'm sure, "George Bush lied. George Bush lied."




There a few facts that Pat left out...
- Iran is killing our soldiers.
- Unlike Russia and China, Iran would likely use a nuclear weapon or supply one to terrorists.
- Iran sponsors terrorists
- There are some things that Americans are allowed to hold sacred such as Ground Zero in New York, and yes, purely for emotional reasons, deny a murderous dictator access to that site.
- There's no free press in most of the Middle East. What would it have hurt to let him lay his wreath? Maybe the press coverage in the Middle East would spin that event so that he was honoring the hijackers.
- So past Presidents made their deals with the devil. This guy is not asking for any deal. He just want islam to rule the world and kill all non-believers.

Maybe you're the infantile Pat.

Attention War Lovers and...
Attention Neocon bootlickers. If you so strongly support war, sign up, grab your rifle and shoot as many of the "Islamofascist" devils as your clips will allow. I will stand aside as not to be trampled by the mob. LOL

Here is a hint children, from someone who has BEEN THERE. Al Qaeda is a joint black-ops invention of the CIA and Mossad. Bin Laden is dead and has been for years, he is resurrected whenever the Bush administration needs him and you "ditto-heads" (a.k.a dumbasses) are so ill-informed that when they don't even attempt to age him properly to reflect 2007, you make witty comments about hair dye instead of seeing what is staring into your slack jawed faces.

Lincoln was wrong, you can fool most of the people all of the time. God help our FORMER Constitutional Republic with this passel of head nodding, non critical thinking idiots to lead it. Infantile Nation doesn't BEGIN to cover it, you will make good, obedient chattle in the future.

So Gabby...
Terrible day indeed...

Typical reactionary... DON'T do anything preventative, just react to a horrific event.

Our being in the ME is all about STOPPING something, as horrific as Isreal being nuked, from happening.

You don't get the idea that if the Mad Mullahs in Iran destroy Isreal, they will rejoice when the Nukes are reigning down on them. For them that is attaining paradise, to die in jihad.

Gabby writes:
I say this to the hysterical men in the rightwing neo-con press: GROW UP. Be men. Learn courage, you are humiliating yourselves.

As opposed to you libs who made excuses for the attack on 9-11? Being grown up is recognizing legitimate dangers and doing something about it vs holding candlelight vigils. If you really belive for a minute this piece of camal dung was demonstrating solidarity with the US in his stupid made for TV stunt then you need to turn off Seseme Street & grow up.

Question on the Iranian-American War.
To all you folks desperate to occupy Iran.

Will Bush just do it - or do you think this time Congress will actually issue a Declaration of War.

Is it:

A) Bush just does it.
B) Congress declares war.
or
C) Other - you describe.

Of course, this is assuming that the US actually has an army capable of another invasion and occupation.


NESS AND CAPONE?

.....Pat ...

....I guess Elliot Ness should have negotiated with Capone while he was shooting up Chicago ....

.....Why does Iran want nukes? ...lets try this one ...they supply half a dozen nukes to a terrorist group ...secrete them on trans-Atlantic Flights ...then we have a bigger and better 9/11 only this time with mushroom clouds over Manhattan ...

....I don't know about you Pat but in the game of nuclear roulette ...the stakes are too high for me .....COLOSSUS

Mr. Paine
For someone so condescending, you sure sound stupid!

"Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"
Michael Savage

JUST BOMB’EM, BLOW’EM UP!

GOOD NEWS... God is speaking directly to George Bush (again) and telling him to go to war with Iran. This new war should go as well as the strategically-brainless Iraq war (our President’s last guidance from “a higher authority, another Father” than Bush41) and further help over one billion Muslims in their decision to fight America in a mutual holy war. When the President finally increases the level of hatred against the United States to where it engulfs Pakistan, then we face nuclear terror, and Biblical Armageddon becomes real and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Oh, the joy, the Rapture!

Right now roiled Pakistan is just one assassin’s bullet away from going under, and still jihad recruitment is only in its infancy. The Crusades of long ago are living history in the Middle East, so Muslims are already primed for another war with Christian invaders; and our “bring it on” cowboy President is only rekindling and fueling this centuries-old fire.

Our brave, innocent young men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting for a better world, but a leader ignorant of history and cultures can easily cause the opposite. The stupidity of World War I and of Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemenceau caused terrible consequences for another 70 years after the end of that war, including Hilter and Communism. Afghanistan is the right war, certainly a just war and the whole world agreed and was on our side, and if we would have concentrated our efforts there we probably would have wiped out Bin Laden and those responsible for 9-11 by now. Iraq is a total disaster, and Iran will be even worse. Let’s face it, all George Bush knows is how to start wars! Our mentally unbalanced, messianic President needs to provoke a war, AND HE WILL FIND A WAY!

Historical footnote: Thank Providence George Bush was not President during the Cuban Missile Crisis. For those of us who lived through that experience, it took a President with brains to survive. God, help us!

angelatc
No Army? Where did that bit of knowledge come from--an anal extraction? It is perfectly alright to be passionate about a subject; it is even alright to talk about it but try to write as though you are informed. Iran has an Army, an army with tanks(over 2000 Main Battle Tanks), artillery (towed and self propelled, 3000 pieces), ground support missiles(surface to surface), ground to air missiles (many shoulder fired), thousands of rockets, cruise missiles, and well armed soldiers (550,000 regular with another 350,000 reserves). Add to that the pursuit of special nuclear weapons grade material.

Gabby
If the worst happens, please do not show up with a candle and a teddy bear. We're not interested. We want live Israelis not teddy bears for dead ones. The world really seems to like dead Israelis.


WREATH CEREMONY

.....Ahmadinejad would not be laying the wreath to honor the victims who perished on 9/11 ...

.....he would be laying it in tribute to the suicide bombers who flew the planes into the buildings ...that's the way it would play in the Muslim world .....COLOSSUS

PATRICK
Mr. Buchanan "YOU" have my VOTE!!!

PATRICK
Mr. Buchanan "YOU" have my VOTE!!!

JOHN CITIZEN

.....Perhaps if GW had been President during the Cuban millile crisis there might not have been a crisis because GW wouldn't have sabotaged the Eisenhower/CIA to overthrow Castro and liberate Cuba ...

.....JFK threw the fat on the fire and then got credit for pulling it out ...but he brought us to the brink of a nuclear war ...Castro wanted to fire his missiles but the Russians had more sense ..... COLOSSUS

baseballdoc
When a "WARRIOR" is saluted on enemy ground,he is "SALUTED" with a "SWORD".NOT A WREATH...It is a symbol of victory.The SWORD is buried into the GROUND...

Pat
Are you so immature you cannot recognize anger from hysteria? If the two are merely a matter of opinion of degree, your opinion is worth no more than mine or others who were angered to vaious degrees and for various reasons at his presence.

Analyse This
Being unable to watch M'Jad's speech and follow-up answers during the day, I had listened to all the 'analysis' of the event channel surfing when I got home from work. I was stunned then when watching the C-Span rerun later last night.
Every media analysist had simply regurgitated the party line almost without deviation as if they never LISTENED to the man themselves.
On "blowing Israel off the map"-- a dubious translation to begin with-- Did he repeat this American translation??? NO he sugested further study of the historical event to include more and perhaps more enlightening input from different perspectives(We still study our own first presidents don't we? We still publish more books on the Civil War don't we? HE emphasized the complete absence of the Palistineans in that whole wwII saga, yet they are the ones who are still, after sixty years, the only ones still reaping the bombs from it.

Pat Buchanan is the only, the only, analysist who actually put some independent thought into this event and gave an opinion that didn't follow the party line, repeating the same words from years ago, the same words of every other mouth piece on the tube.
Astounding how proud some people are to 'bravely' verbalize their complete ignorance! They are easy to spot-- and even easier to skip over their posts after only the first couple thoughts.

BYTHEOCEAN
OUr government should be dedicated to preserving the life of each and every American.

Fighting for the rights of other countries should be left to other countries. These entangling alliances are the reason the world is on the verge of WWIII today.

The survival of Israel, or any other country for that matter, isn't worth a single American dollar, much less a single American life.

Israeli land contains some of the most holy Muslimic sites in the world. It would be a sin for them to destroy their own holy sites.

Israel has a powerful military force. It is perfectly capable of defending itself, and I have no doubt it will.

Probably "pre-emptively."


Neville Chamberlain Lives!
Does anyone really think that he would be laying that wreath for OUR dead?

The NYPD know that this a major security issue. I,for one,would not be able to contain my rage. Multiply me by all the other people who lost friends and family.


Katy the mean old lady
Evidently Pat missed the news bite where Iran guy (why type out his entire name?) specifically said he wanted to lay the wreath in memory of the 19 heroic martyrs who died that day.

Why
...do I have to post a second time for my previous post to show up!?!

Ahmadinajead the reasonable
Pat seems to have quite a bit of respect for Ahmadinajead, despite the fact that he sends suicide bombers and weapons over to Iraq to kill American soldiers. But Pat concludes that Ahmadinajead just wants to pay respect to dead Americans. If he has so much respect, maybe he should stop killing us over in Iraq. With that kind of stupid logic, thank God Pat doesn't run our country.

John Citizen...
You are more melodramatic than most menstrating women.

This idea that Bush is chomping at the bit to attack Iran...and that God told him to do it...is asinine. We will not go to war with Iran during this administration. Bet on it.

As for your "Cuban Missile Crisis" reference...are you kidding? The thing that always amuses me is how modern leftists usually speak of Castro with respect and admiration, while waxing poetic on the great presidency of JFK. Yet the two men hated each other, and shared radically different ideologies.

How does the left reconcile their Castro love affair, with the Camelot view of the Kennedy years? Seems a bit of a conflict. Now perhaps you see Castro as the thug he is, but you might be surprised how many democrats do not regard him that way. "Bush is much worse," they lament. And yet, Bush will step down when his term is over. Castro, assuming he is still alive, will remain in power until he assumes room temperature.

Not again
Apollospeaks:

First, please reframe from calling the Japanese "Japs" as it is as an offensive term to them as the so-called N-word is to blacks. And thus using the term makes you look like a racist idiot.

Second, American isolationism didn't embolden the Empire of Japan to attack but the exact opposite--it was the US-led embargo of oil that lead to the Japanese attack. Now before one of TH's idiotic super patriots attack me for that statement--I am not saying that there was not a good reason for the embargo, but Japan attacked because of it, not because of US isolation.

In fact US "isolation" at the time is a myth--the US was quite active in Asia and Latin America.


Boy Howdy!
The first coins minted in the US bore the Franklin inspired motto, "Mind Your Business".

We used to believe in avoiding entangleing foreign alliances. Americans who believed in a foreign cause were free to go fight for that cause.

Fact is: A-jad and the rest of the Muslim world can pose no threat to the US or any US citizen if we weren't in the ME, if we imposed a moritorium on Muslim immigration, if we secured our borders, and we declared Islam a suicide/murder cult instead of a religion and banned its practice in the US.

If all of you "US-World Police" types want to save Isreal, I say go for it, but do it on your own dime and your own time. Don't use the coersive hand of government to force me to go along with your internationalist pipe dreams.

IOW: Mind Your Business!

Lincoln
Actually Mr Paine, Lincoln is said to have said you can fool some of the people all of the time, and most of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.


PS
Great article Pat. The defense of duplicity in the comments here would be humorous if the advocates of war weren't stealing money out of my pocket in an attempt to redeem the unredeemable (Islam).

Pat is right
His facts are correct and his analogy is quite logical. Our leaders looked beyond the misconduct of other leaders in order to facilitate peace. Those others did much worse than what Ahmadinejad is accused of. Let's assume Ahmadinejad is triving for nukes and has supported the insurgents against us in Iran. We supported insurgents against the USSR in Afghanistan but we still egaged in diplomacy and we didn't insult them to their face. Ahmadinejad wanted to lay a wreath to respect the 9/11 victims. He was trying to extent an olive branch, we should have accepted his offer. It's not appropriate to issue an invitation to be a guest speaker and then start off the event by calling the guest an "ignorant, petty tyrant".

We should strive against nuclear proliferation but at the same time we need to remember that other nations think they have a right to pursue them just as Israel and the US has done. Also, Ahmadinejad has political pressure to say things to appease the hot-heads in his country. That's politics and it doesn't really mean that Ahmadinejad actually believes everything he has said. We must be more sophisticated in our foreign relations.

I'm not saying that we actually trust him and put our guard down. But I'm saying that this childish behavior is counter-productive.

Yeah, Pat
... we should have invited Hitler and Mussolini to come lay wreaths at Pearl Harbor during WWII.

Oh, or France should have invited Tojo to come lay a wreath the Ardennes Forest. Yeah, that's it.

Oooh, oooh, I know, China should have invited Mussolini to lay wreaths all across Manchuria.

Poland should have invited, oh, call it Mao, to lay a wreath in the Katyn Forest.

Hungary should have invited Castro to lay a wreath in Budapest. Wait, I think Hungary did that anyway.

Or Bush should visit... Saudi Arabia! Issue a joint communiqué and scare Tehran's mullahs out of their wits! No, wait, we already have relations with Saudi Arabia. Have to think of a fellow-traveling Islamic theocracy we DON'T have relations with, to terrify Iran. Now, that's a poser, since we have relations with just about all of them.

But that would at least be the grown-up thing to do. Powerful evidence that no one in the USA is hysterical, or at least doesn't seem so, which appearance is clearly our top objective. Why didn't Bush think of that? Too hysterical, I guess.

The analogy-making part of your brain has gone haywire, Buchanan. May be time to hang up that keyboard.

Islam
Well, Al Qaeda seems to want to convert the entire world to this cult and I do agree it is a cult--but as for as that goes so is Christianity in my view and many Christians hold similar intolerant beliefs as does those that follow radical Islam. They just usually don't follow up those beliefs with violence. The US being in the region is not why they want to destroy the US (and the rest of the civilized world). And even if this was true, since the Middle East is of vital importance (at least until oil and gasoline are as important as whale oil), the US can't simply leave the region alone. The US can basically tell most of Africa to go to hell--this is not the case with the Middle East. Would you want the Middle East run by Islamic nutjobs like the Taliban?

The US can't ban Islam because of the Constitution, and because of oil the US can't simply leave the Middle East and the US government being totally incompetent has about as much chance of securing the US border as I do of being selected to the post of the President of the PRC.




Plumber
I mostly agree, except we can't ban the entire Islam. We need to be very restrictive as to immigration, visas and we need to use profiles to add to our security. Basically, we need more traditional common sense. Our public needs to be better educated about the age-old conflicts with Islam, basically, political correctism needs to be tossed out the window.

dyerje
If Hitler decided he wanted to lay a wreath at Pearl Harbor in Dec 8 of 1941 instead of declaring war against us it would have been darn stupid to refuse to allow him to do it and then insult him to his face.

Offering to lay a wreath is a sign that he doesn't want war. I say keep up our guard with this guy Ahmadinejad but don't unnecessarily pee in his face.

Problems
France was controlled by the Nazis with a pro-Nazi government in place. The first troops the US fought against in offensive operations were French troops in North Africa in 1942. I am sure the government of France would not have had a problem at all with Tojo laying a wreath.

Also, World War II wasn't like a board game. China had good relations with Germany deep into WWII (despite the fact its so-called ally the US was in war with Germany). Japan and the USSR refused to go to war with each other even as their allies were fighting each other until the final days of the war and both sides engaged in trade with each other throughout the war until war was declared by the Soviets on August 8, 1945.


blindness
Pat,you really have a moral blindness that is disconcerting.

Most Americans, frankly, look at Nixon's going "to toast Mao" not as an American action that should be recalled with any fondness at all. Maybe it was a necessary action, but it was not a proud moment for Nixon to have done.

We have lost our ability to think morally. It would be outrageous to allow the President of Iran to come to the WTC memorial to lay a wreath. It would be outrageous for you to allow your mother's unrepentant murderer to come to her memorial service to berate her and your family for living a life against God.

He should not be allowed in the country. That we have to allow him in because of the UN is another argument to get rid of the UN here in the USA; but that doesn't mean we have to allow him to go anywhere he likes. Are you nuts?

You're losing your mind and taking Will with you.

Good article
Agreed, Pat.

Our entire political culture has reached a point where we are no longer able to dispassionately analyze data and make logical, conservative decisions based on the facts we know.

Instead, every political battle is a hyperbolic war to end all wars. Therefore letting the Ferret President from Iran lay a wreath today means that tomorrow our women will be wearing burqas.

And, of course, talking to the Iranians will mean a nuclear war in the Middle East come Christmas, because dem Iranians is all suicidal nutcases whose sole purpose in life is to kill Jews and sow chaos.

I mean, sure, they haven't launched chemical or conventional rockets at our troops or the Israelis even though it probably would cause scores of casulties and might mean the end of Israel. And they haven't cut off their oil or tried to cut off the oil of other nations which could wreck the world economy, sow chaos, and possibly spark a new world war.

But dem Persians are sneaky. Like the commies in Russia, they just want us to think they're sane, so we let our guard down, then next thing you know... BAM! We're goosesteppin' in Washington and saluting a banner of Stalin while we're carrying our prayer rugs.

One more thing
Nice bit of moral equivalence between Israel and Iran. Well, America, Brittain, France, China, and Russia have nuclear weapons, too, for deterence. I guess Iran should also have them. I wonder if you think Russia's acquisition of the bomb was a good or bad thing?

I understand, as I'm sure you do, why Iran wants nuclear weapons. The only remaining question from reasonable people is: how are we going to prevent them from getting it. You don't really believe they're not a higher risk to giving them to terrorists than other countries, do you?

I think you don't mind Iran getting the bomb because it would reduce American influence and intervention in the Middle East and it would provide a counter to Israel--neither of which would bother you much, I'm guessing. Everything is apparently great so long as everyone has the ability to anhilate everyone else.


Jimbo
Pat is against nuclear proliferation of course but we still need to avoid creating problems in other areas (Holocaust, homosexuality etc). Pat was right, our behavior was infantile.

USSR
The Soviets and the Americans both having the bomb was probably a good thing if one or the other was going to have it as it caused both sides to excercise extreme restraint such as in Europe, Cuba and Vietnam.

Would Iran be as rational as China after 1962 or the Soviets after 1949, who knows. I wouldn't bet on it though.

Ahh,
Buying oil or any other product from the ME is hardly an excuse for trying to reform Islam or a justification for our current involvement in the ME. If they want to sell it to us, fine.

Yes, some Christians are intolerant, but one is hard-pressed to find Christians who exhort followers to strap bombs on themselves to kill nonbelievers. The Bible, unlike the Koran, leaves judgement in the hands of God, not in the hands of a believer of a self-centered, blood-thirsty madman (Muhammad).

The First Amendment says that Congress cannot establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise thereof. The Koran says just the opposite in stark, concise terms. It should be banned, and every American should read the Koran to understand why this wicked ideology has no place in a civilized, pluralistic society. A-Jad is probably no better or worse than the Muslim who'll replace him.

Unfortunately, there seems to be an inverse relationship between advanced degrees and common sense. That's why we need a plumber as president. So, when you all go to your polling places, write in The Plumber for President:)

Pat is right on this time
The hostility toward Ahmadinejad has reached the ridiculous considering that the U.S. has not exactly been even handed in its foreign policy dealings with Iran over the last 50+ years. In 1953 we helped overthrow a freely elected president of Iran because he threatened to nationalize the oil companies in Iran. We installed a despot (the Shah) in his place. In 1972 we backed Iraq against Iran even though Saddam used poison gas against Iran. No wonder the Iranians don't particulary like us. And if Columbia invites a foreign leader to speak they should at least be civil and let the students do the grilling. The way it was handled we let Ahmadinejad look a lot better than he should have. We should take a page from the Nixon and Reagan playbook, and try and deal with this guy. But as Donald Trump said yesterday, we have a bunch of lightweights in the State Department that are incapable of making any progress in the middle east.

Bobmscishi
I agree that Pat was correct in his article but for somewhate different reasons. You seem to think the US was bad in its foreign dealings in the past. While I believe interventionism is generally wrong I do so because it is counter-productive not because we are morally wrong. I suspect that the days of the Shah were the best days Iran ever had. But I think in the end we hurt ourselves by getting rapped up in everyone else's foreign affairs. We need to drill our own oil in Alaska and the Gulf instead of being so reliant on the ME and such places.

Actually no.
The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor because of the embargo. Japan would have run out of oil even in a non-war economy by 1943 (obviously in war it would use oil even faster). Japan's choices were poor--buckle to the US demands, push north into the Soviet Union for its resources or push south. Pushing south to the NEI would cause the US to enter the war against Japan and with an intact fleet at Pearl Harbor and a large number of assets sticking like a dagger at the heart of Japan in the Philippines.

In Japan's view, war was unavoidable and if war with the Americans were unavoidable, then her assets had to be degraded, thus the attack on 12/7.

The US was attacked because it was assumed it would go to war if Japan moved southward to seize the NEI--and that was a correct assumption.

The plan was to wear the US down and force it to negotiate on Japan's terms.

The problem with this was that Japan was never able to stall the US war machine to make victory in the US seem dim--the US from the summer of 1942 onward was always advancing--if Japan could had held forced a stalemate, perhaps Japan's plan could have worked out--Americans seem to easily tire of war if you force a stalemate (see summer of 1864, Korea 1952, Vietnam, 1968, Iraq 2006/2008)--but as long as victory seems likely they will support the war--Japan was unable to stall the Americans enough or kill enough of them to make the war unpopular enough and without that, Japan was doomed.

And using the term "Jap" in your mind to mean those of Tojo's (who you no doubt know nothing about)generation makes its use no less racist.

Gabby is a nutcase
"If Muslims destroy Israel with a nuke...That will be a terrible day indeed. But the next day after that will be very bad as well because Israel's attacker will be wiped off the map."

Great idea. There is really nothing like a good nuclear holocaust. This is certainly preferable to small arms combat in a region that sits on 75 percent of the world's ready oil reserves.

So Buchanan and Gabby think it is entirely reasonable to let a fundamentalist dictator, who rhapsodizes about Armegeddon and the liquidation of his neighbors, to acquire the most destructive and horrifying weapon known to man. Brilliant.

"My country doesn't run the world and neither does Israel or the Arabs. God does. This is HIS business."

This reasoning deserves no response. It doesn't pay to reason with crazy people.

Pat writes:
Richard Nixon went to Moscow and concluded strategic arms agreements while Moscow was the arms supplier of the enemy we were fighting in Vietnam that used, at Hue, mass murder as a war tactic.
-----------------------

Apples to oranges Patrick.
Nixon did not accept Ho Chi Minh into the USA and then allow him to speak at a Public place,and have his justifications (spread all over America) for his war on the South, as this case is.

You write lots of good articles Pat, this is not one of them, it stinks.

Korsokoff's Syndrome Poster Person, ...
... Mr Buchanan, really aught retire to the hospice and wait there on the porch for the nice little criminal alien to come by and change his diaper.

For I'm about as sick of him emptying it here as he must be of increasingly more frequently waking up in its content.

Akagi
In your 1:18 PM post you make my point: there are analogies that are sensible and valid, and analogies that are idiotic. Buchanan is making the latter kind.

It is just as superficial to analogize Ahmadinejad laying a wreath at Ground Zero with Tojo laying at wreath in northeastern France, as it is to suggest that America welcoming Ahmadinejad for a wreath-laying would be the equivalent of Nixon going to China, in terms of non-hysterical statesmanship. The colossal stupidity of that implication is... indescribable.

Buchanan really needs to get a grip. So, incidentally, does the poster who suggested that after December 1941, when Hitler had already invaded much of central and eastern Europe, as well as France, and the Low Countries, and had been attacking England (and US shipping) in a bombing and submarine warfare campaign for a year and a half -- that at this point in WWII, the US would have been better off to leave Europe to whatever the he** the Third Reich and the Soviet Union wanted to do with it, and welcome Hitler and Mussolini to lay wreaths at Pearl Harbor as a means of further appeasing Hitler.

Appeasement works just fine -- as long as the consequences of being intimidated, extorted, attacked, or invaded by the more determined party are acceptable to you.

One other thing Pat does not
Consider in his article.
Iran declared War on America in 1979.
Is this war over?
Iran give up?
Iran changed in their declaration of war on America?

We have found peace with Iran?

talent scout
Now you're just being hysterical. We don't let little things like Iran declaring war on us influence our dealings with Iran. That would just be infantile.

Mr. Buchanan
Mr. Buchanan,
I have a few question regarding your article. First are you trying to be sarcastic? Gee, I hope so!
You can not possibly believe that Amadinejad wanted to lay a wreath at Ground Zero to show the world he sides with us on the war on terror. It was a sorry attempt at PR and a play to those in this country who seem to side with him. In his mind, to keep us divided. That's it. Nothing else. He does not remember the lessons taught in WWII.
Ahmadinejad seeks nukes for one reason only. Isreal! He does not care about consequences to his country or the rest of the world as long as he is the Muslim that destroy's Iseral and puts his name right next to Mohammed.
Why should we negotiate with him as if he has the upper hand. We have the position of strength here. Iran,(although if we just keep talking and don't act in some fashion he understand, they will)does not have nukes as of now and as far as we know an effective delivery system. He can however reach Isreal. He will reach Isreal giving the chance.
The other presidents and negotiations you sited were done with countries that already had nukes and the means and allies to deliver them. By the way, how many years did it take after JFK and Krushchev reached an accord, for the USSR to expand thier nuclear inventory? Not very long, did it.
As far as I know, there has never been a negotiation with any Arab country in the mideast that had any real success. That goes for Egypt and Russia as well. "Promise one thing and do the other". That is the way it has always been dealt to us in the mid east. We should always keep that in mind. Even Saddat did not want relations with Isreal until he got his but kicked!
Lastly, regardless of negotions with countries, leaders and situations long past,how can we take Ahmadinejad serious about any thing he say's while he is perpetuating the killing of Americans and Iraquis (Sunni and Sheite alike).

Laying a Wreath Is OK With You?
There was no reason to believe this puppet president (the Mullahs are really in charge) would not use a visit to Ground Zero as yet another way to showboat and use it for propaganda purposes. His short visit to Columbia University has already been used for propaganda purposes by his non-free press.

There is also no reason to believe he wasn't going to lay a wreath at Ground Zero in deference to the Muslims who took over the planes that were used to level those buildings and kill Americans on American soil. But, when it comes down to it, I guess he was being a good steward of his country's money in wanting to see at Ground Zero where his money went.

talent scout
"Iran declared War on America in 1979."

No, we are not at war with Iran.

If we were, former Col. North wouldn't be a conservative favorite and commentator, he'd be hung and buried in disgrace as a traitor along with anyone else in the Reagan administration who was involved in Iran/Contra back in the day.

____________


And, really, if we're going to go back and appeal to history, we don't exactly come out smelling like roses either, considering we helped overthrow their democratic government and install a brutal, repressive authoritarian dictator mostly to protect oil company investments.

george W Bush
How would you feel if and if. This is childish. We fought a war with England and we got along well because we were both civilized. India is quite happy that England colonized it because otherwise it be a collect of fiefdoms and not the great country it is.
The people running IRan today live by 7th century codes such as stoning adultereres; hanging homosexual, prohibiting women to travel with male persmission and so forth. IT is gestapo like country which the people would love to get rid.
So dont rationalize these thugs, dicators, inquisitors that we got rid of with the Iranian people.

How you would feel if your sister got stoned for adulery; how would you feel if your homosexual friend was hanging from noose.
You are so taken with "how do you feel". the iranian dont appreciate people who justify the tyranny over them. You are an enabler of tyranny and you dont have a good excuse for such , such a necessity as tempopary expedient.

Of wreaths and bombs...
I take exception to the arugment of Buchanan on Eisenhower/Kruschev and Nixon/Mao. Who says those were good things to do?

Nixon was doing it as a stunt - he was in such hot water, he had to turn the focus on to something. I'd never call Nixon a statemen, but one shrewed, brilliant, calculating politician.

Eisenhower and Kruschev - Two world powers, different game than some radical facist from a 3rd world country squeaking loud so someone...any one would pay attention to him and give him prestige...which we couldn't do fast enough. Shame on us.

Plus, no one from the USSR, or China has strapped a bomb on themselves and used it as a strategy on how to inflict terror. But Iran sponsers this nut case method. They are not rational. USSR and China, for all their evil were rational - we could deal with them.

It completely boggles my mind why nothing has been done about Iran.

To Akagi - "Is it better for both of us (US and USSR) to have the Bomb?"...and you said yes???? Have we so lost it? I would have only the U.S. w/ the bomb, and everyone else no bomb ANY DAY. No, but today we are taught to be fair, to be non-judgmental, to be tolerant. Hogwash. If Iran gets the bomb, people will die - no good can come of it - directly or indirectly. If you or the vast majority can't see that, I fear for our future.

Laying a Wreath Is OK With You?
The wreath Ahmadinejad would have laid at the trade centre site would be to honour the 19 Saudi's who gave thier lives in the name of Jihad. Not letting him any where near the site makes perfect sense to me. Not even letting him off the UN grounds makes even better sense.

Brilliant! Once again Pat
Thank you voice of reason! These douchenozzles who are AFRAID of free speech should all be shipped to Saudi Arabia, where they will never have to worry about it again.

Free speech is what makes this country so great! Remember EVANGELICALS, you wouldn't be able to practice your form of lunacy anywhere but the good ol' US of A.

Most Americans think you guys are nutjobs, but we still let you speak and even give you tax breaks!

So, get over it and THANK Dr. Bollinger for protecting your rights.

Go Pat!!!
I'm so dissapointed with the conservative movement. I'm not an anti-semite, my family used to hide the Jewish people in our attick of the home I grew up in during WWII, but this silly argument that America has to support Isreal is idiotic. It is not in the interest of the American PEOPLE, but the interests of the North American Union and the one world government. All of that means that the constitution will be elliminated! I don't know about you, but to me the greatness and my admiration of this country lies in it's constitution which is being destroyed by the neocons (liberals) and the democrats (socialists). We need a real conservative in the white house like Hunter or Ron Paul. If you want status quo, than vote for Rudy McRomney Fred, what a joke!

I this stupid country keeps heading in the way it is currently there is going to be a revolution! People are not happy. The president and congress have record low approval ratings, people don't believe the main stream media and the so called "new media" is proving to be even worse. Something is gonna have to give.

"You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

You serious?
George W Bush writes: 4:06 PM
talent scout
What Iran apparently declared war on us because they wanted the privelidge of self determination?
----------------
ts:
Well so did Sitting Bull and the Confederate South and.......
------------------

George W Bush writes:

Do you even know who put the Shah in power?
------------------
ts:
I have read several things, but none of it cancels out Iran's Declaration of War on America ( I know of)

-----------------
George W Bush writes:
Who killed Iran's democracy?
------------
ts:
Iran never had a democracy
-----------


George W Bush writes:
Cut the talking points and lets look at history.
---------------------------------
ts:
Go blow it out your rear to someone else, Iran declared was on America, clown.
----------------------------
George W Bush writes:
How would you feel if a foreign country installed and propped up a despot in your country for over two decades and then proceeded to arm your neighbors, giving those enemies CBRNs to use on you, then attacking your two neighbors with you in the crosshairs? Who is the aggressor you fool?
----------
ts:
You an idiot?
You do not have a clue in what your talking about and you are on the side of my enemies and the enemies of America fool

USSR and WWII
dyerje:

That is exactly Pat's point if I recall correctly in his book "A Republic, not an Empire." That Hitler had no designs on Western Europe (France, the UK, the Low Countries) but to the East and if you read his works I suppose there is some evidence to make this claim. And if the west had let Hitler take Poland and then move to the east, Stalin and Hitler would have eventually burned themselves out and the UK wouldn't have lost its empire.

I think at this point John McCain (I am no fan of him either) stated that Pat should be exiled from the GOP.

As for atomic weapons. I didn't say both the US and Iran should have them. I said that the Soviets having the bomb and the Americans having the bomb caused both sides to have restraint--which in my view is a good thing because both the USSR and the USA were rational actors. Just as I think that both India and Pakistan having the bomb has caused both to use restraint when in previous times when neither had the bomb such acts would have caused a war.

Will Iran be as rational--I am not so sure and not willing to bet on it so under no conditions should Iran be allowed to have the bomb.


Do two wrongs make a right?
Pat sez:

"Nixon went to Beijing to toast Mao Zedong, the greatest mass murderer in history, responsible for the deaths of 37,000 Americans in Korea, who was, in 1972, persecuting and murdering dissidents in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution run by his crazed wife, and transshipping Russian weapons into Vietnam.
And Nixon is today hailed as a statesman for having gone there.
In 1959, President Eisenhower rode up Pennsylvania Avenue in an open convertible with Nikita Khrushchev, Stalin's gauleiter in Ukraine, who, three years before his tour of the United States, had sent tanks into Budapest to butcher the patriots of the Hungarian Revolution."
***************************************

I do not recall myself calling Nixon as a statesman for opening the way for American businesses to abandon their homeland and use slave labor in China while American workers "twist slowly in the wind."

I do not recall admiring Eisenhower for riding in a convertable with Khrushchev, who should have been banned from this country.

Instead, I think that back in the 1960s, we should have made a law banning all "diplomats" who make threats against the United States and her allies.

That would have kept Khrushchev off American soil the moment he made the threat: "Ve vill bury you!"

That would have saved wear and tear on the sole of his shoe too.

Burka
Without Pat, you'd be wearing a Burka!

talent scout writes:
hey from where I'm sitting, you are ver sad clown. Not a funny clown, but a very sad one. You don't know jack about American true history of the last 100 years. All the wars we fought for the past 50 years have been unconstitutional!

What do you believe in? The government or the constitution?

Mohammad Mosaddeq
4:12 PM
talent scout
"Iran declared War on America in 1979."
----------
Dread writes:

No, we are not at war with Iran.
-------------
ts
Then you are no American
Iran is at war with America
----------
Dread writes:
If we were, former Col. North wouldn't be a conservative favorite and commentator, he'd be hung and buried in disgrace as a traitor along with anyone else in the Reagan administration who was involved in Iran/Contra back in the day.
-----------

ts
That is just stupid comments worthless as spit

____________

Dread writes:
And, really, if we're going to go back and appeal to history, we don't exactly come out smelling like roses either, considering we helped overthrow their democratic government and install a brutal, repressive authoritarian dictator mostly to protect oil company investments.

-------------------------
ts
Iran never had a democratic government

The U.S. government, including the CIA, kept what it had done in Iran secret from the American people, so it was not Americans, but the same clowns who are stealing America from Americans today.
The slimy politicians of both parties.

As to Iran's Mohammad Mosaddeq
He gained power the same way he lost it

One more thing
Oh and freedom. Since we are talking about fairness--is it fair for the PRC to have nuclear weapons and offensive missiles aimed at Taiwan from Fujian and Taiwan neither has nuclear weapons nor offensive missiles? You might recall Taiwan's great friend, the US (yes--this is meant to be sarcastic) pressured Taiwan to shut down its nuclear weapons program in the 1980s. Former premier and general, Hao Pei Tsun stated in his memoirs that Taiwan could have had a device by the early 1990s if the program had not be shut down. The US also has stated that Taiwan did not have the right to develop offensive weapons to defend itself--both acts being very hypocritical since the US hasn't had a security guarantee with Taiwan since the US annulled the US-ROC Mutual Defense Treaty in 1978 (the treaty officially became null and void in 1979 as per the terms of the treaty).

So if I had to pick one country to have nuclear weapons and no other--my vote would go to Taiwan--but the US would still be somewhat high on my list--#2 or #3 I suppose.

Talent Scout
You need to start your own thread, bud. I think I speak for most of us when I say, whaaat?

That is probably the most incoherent diatribe I have read today. I think we are all dumber for having read it.

You and "The Big Mick" should take your show on the road. I would start out on the "GROUP HOME" circuit and maybe work your way up to HALFWAY HOUSES.

Now from Heehaw
Constitutionalist writes: Tuesday, September, 25, 2007 5:08 PM
talent scout
hey from where I'm sitting, you are ver sad clown. Not a funny clown, but a very sad one. You don't know jack about American true history of the last 100 years. All the wars we fought for the past 50 years have been unconstitutional!




What do you believe in? The government or the constitution.

--------------------
ts
Fools are a waste of time, and never interested in sticking to the subject.
And like the slimeballs that hang out here as you are evidently, just come to make snotty remarks to people.

You are an idiot sir
You waste no time in talking about the subject to get right to your purpose, be a smart aze.

Iran declared war on America, thats me and all I love.
I and all American Citizens had nothing to do with the global politics that changed the leadership in Iran, just as right now.

All I need to know is Iran has not changed and supports every terrorist organization in the world today and is my enemy.
And anyone who supports Iran over America is my enemy too.


Hardly
"All the wars we fought for the past 50 years have been unconstitutional!"

Do you mean to say that unless Congress has declared war the war is unconstitutional? Care to cite the section of the Constitution you get this from.

The US has declared war only five times: 1812, 1846, 1898, 1917 and 1941.

It has used military power countless times outside of that from the Barbary Pirates, to the US Civil War (sic), the Boxer Rebellion, Korea, Vietnam, etc.

Only Congress can declare war, but the president as commander in chief can deploy troops whenever he sees fit and every president since Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion has done so.

Oh and of the five wars that the US has declared--only two were valid in my view.

talent scout
ts
That is just stupid comments worthless as spit
___________

Not really. If we are at war with Iran and we have been at war with Iran for the last 30 years, then everyone who helped get weapons to 'the enemy' 20 years ago is guilty of treason.

I realize we've all come to equate criticism of the President with treason now, but traditionally, you don't get much guiltier of treason than handing the enemy of your country a supply of weapons.



The day America looses Pat
it will have lost of the best political minds since John Randolph.

Reading the ignorant, shrill, infantile comments responding to this article reminds me of just how far the GOP has degraded itself and its base into warmongering, neo-con myopia. And I say this as someone who was present and in danger on 9/11, covered in dust, a life-long Republican, not some gun-ho midwesterner who cried, bought a CD and then decided Hussein was behind the attacks because President Bush and his absent draft card told him so.

This is pathetic. The party is hopeless.

Columbia U takes America Hostage
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY TAKES AMERICA HOSTAGE:
ACADEMIC GROUNDS FOR TREASON

BY LISA RICHARDS
September 25, 2007


Once, very long ago in America, treason was something to be abhorred. Today it is admired and aspired to. Treason is akin to women at shoe sales: grab as much as you can and don’t look back. Then flaunt your actions while your husband weeps over the credit card bill.

Let me now state with utmost categorical belligerence: I hate Mahmoud Ahmadinedjad. Not only is he a terrorist ruling a terror-run nation funneling money and weapons to terrorists killing U.S. troops, he is the man responsible for invading the American Embassy in Iran in 1979, taking United States citizens and holding them hostage for 444 days.

He is also the man who helped over throw the Shah of Iran, a friend to America whom Jimmy Carter back-stabbed, letting Ahnadinedjad revolt against freedom, capture U.S. citizens, and put the Ayatollah Khomeini in power placing Iran under theological Islamic freakish rule.

I have never forgiven Ahmadinedjad and his crony revolutionaries for what they did to America’s people. I never will. He deserves nothing but the same treatment he inflicts upon Jews, Christians and U.S. troops fighting for world freedom from Islamic nuts. He deserves what his people chant in the streets—death.

Further insult has been added to a 28 year-old injury: Columbia University’s President Bollinger had the utter gall and treasonous indecency to invite the murderous terror-monger as an honored guest speaker on campus. This is the same campus which refused to let the founder of the anti illegal immigration group Minutemen Project James Gilchrist speak, forcing him off stage, because Gilchrist is against illegal aliens in America...

For rest of column go to my blog

copyright 2007 Lisa Richards
http://www.lisa-richards.com
E-mail: lisa-richards@lisa-richards.com




AKAGI

.....Truman could have prevented Russia from getting the bomb in 1945 ...but like the true Lib he was all he could think of was reducing our armed forces down to a bare minimum ...

.....Truman ...like Roosevelt ...was a big supporter of Mother Russia and "Uncle Joe" ...and so we lost China and ended up fighting the the Chinese in Korea .....

.....Roosevelt knew when he embargoed oil from Japan that he would force Japan into the war and then FDR would have the moral authority to enter as an ally of Mother Russia ...FDR's cabinet was riddled with Communists and sympathizers ...these are just historical facts that led us to where we are today ...trying to keep a radical Iran from joining the Nuclear Club .....COLOSSUS

....

We are not given a choice

talent scout

That is just stupid comments worthless as spit
___________
Dread writes:
Not really. If we are at war with Iran and we have been at war with Iran for the last 30 years, then everyone who helped get weapons to 'the enemy' 20 years ago is guilty of treason.
-------------
ts:

Iran has declared the war, even if I do not want one.
They have continuously supported terrorism all over the globe since 1979 and the religious fanatics of islam gained power.

Hard to ignore when people are murdering my countrymen just cause they are Americans.
Least for me.
------------


Dread writes:
I realize we've all come to equate criticism of the President with treason now, but traditionally, you don't get much guiltier of treason than handing the enemy of your country a supply of weapons.
------------------

More nonsense

WWII
Although the US sure helped the PLA win in 1948-1949 by throwing Chiang under the bus (a typical American trait that would be repeated in Vietnam and will soon be seen again in Iraq in the near future) and the State Department was full of pro-Maoists (just as it is filled with pro-PRCers today), the loss of China to the communists can be laid mostly at the failure of Chiang at various junctures and the Japanese--if not for the invasion of China by the Japanese, the PLA never wins.

FDR first cut off gasoline over 87 octane after the Japanese bombed Shanghai in the fall of 1937 and later all oil after Japan invaded Indochina.

The oil cut off was meant to make Japan break its ties with Germany and Italy and stop the war in China and get Japan out of French Indochina--instead it did the opposite---war--thanks to hawks in both Tokyo and Washington. Japan had at least a civil relationship with the USSR until August 8, 1945 when the Soviets in an act of total betrayal declared war. And if Hitler had not declared war on the US on December 8, 1941--the US would have never been an ally of the USSR.

So it really is a leap of faith to claim FDR wanted war with Japan--although there were some in the American leadership that did and they got exactly that.

The Korean war can be laid mainly at the feet of Truman's Secretary of State who basically gave Mao, Stalin and Kim and greenlight to invade the ROK (as well as Taiwan).

Akagi
This concept of fairness (Taiwan should have it before others, that would be fair)...is meaningless in world politics. If Taiwan wants the bomb they go get it, period. If they crater to pressure, that is a choice. Cold, hard, but nothing fair about it. If Iran thumbs it's nose at the world to get the bomb, that's a choice. We have to make the choice that they will under no circumstances get the bomb. We made choices to allow other countries to get it. We now are living with the consequences at that.

You are right..and that is the problem. We let China gain nuclear power, and now the risk to confront them is geometically more than a country trying to become nuclear. There is nothing fair about it. If Iran can get the bomb, they will. If we really want to stop them, we should do all in our power. Fair has nothing to do with it.

Glad to hear that the U.S. is #2 or #3 on your fairness list on who should get the bomb. In my mind the U.S. is #1 and if i had any power, I'd make sure no other country on the earth would get it. But too late. Taiwan is symbolic, but not sure it's that strategic vs. what Iran is. Perhaps unfortunately, expediency outweighs rightness or even fairness most of the time.

Akagi
"Do you mean to say that unless Congress has declared war the war is unconstitutional? Care to cite the section of the Constitution you get this from."

Yep!, "war" and military action or "engagement" are two separate categories!

Article One, Section Eight of the Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Formal_declarations_of_war

Akagi and Co.
Nice way to dilute Pat Buchanan's point. You guys should start your own thread. We'd be happy to debate you clowns THERE.

Also akagi
You gotta brush up on your Chinese History. Here are some books to get you started:

China: Its History and Culture, W. Scott Morton
The Search For Modern China, Jonathon D. Spence
Generalissimo, Jonathon Fenby

These all give accounts much different than those you cite.

China
Please show me where I am wrong.

And I have probably forgotten more Chinese language and Chinese history than you will ever know--so spare me.


Why didn't we elect this guy in 1996?
Yes, you hit the nail on the head. Ahmadinejad laying a wreath at Ground Zero is his public declaration of support for the victims and condemnation of bin Laden for the attack. Why do we insist on making this guy the enemy? Maybe there is some common interest here short of us bombing him off the face of the earth.

Terror Refresher Course 101 - Iran and Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 or bin Laden. Bush got confused and attacked the wrong country trying to protect us from the terrorists. But all of the terrorists and most of the blood money came (and still comes) from another country called Saudi Arabia. Please, let's not repeat the same mistake twice.

Just brilliant

jacmicwag writes:

"Terror Refresher Course 101 - Iran and Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 or bin Laden. Bush got confused and attacked the wrong country trying to protect us from the terrorists. But all of the terrorists and most of the blood money came (and still comes) from another country called Saudi Arabia. Please, let's not repeat the same mistake twice."
----------------------------

Just another confused man like FDR in WW2 attacking North Africa to fight Germans.

Or having some idea about fighting the Japanese in the Philippines.

Glad such as you are not working for the Pentagon.

Ni Hao, pengyou!
Ah, Taiwan ren! Ni de pinyin hao bu hao?

Pat Buchanan, meet Ron Paul
Here's good news for you, Pat! We've actually got a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate who agrees with you that Ahmedinijad, and Iran itself, are no big deal. His name is Ron Paul.

In an interview with Bill O'Reilly, Ron Paul actually said that the Iranian regime is acting (his words) "logically and defensively." I guess he included Iran meddling in Iraq to kill American troops as part of their "defensive" posture.

http://tinyurl.com/2dmt3p

And once again, just like with Iraq, Ron Paul put the blame on AMERICA for being "hypocritical" by keeping our military options vis-a-vis Iran on the table.

http://tinyurl.com/26dmpq

So unless you agree with Ron Paul that Ahmedinijad and his minions are behaving "logically and defensively" against "U.S. hypocrisy," don't vote for Ron Paul for President.

for Tsunami
Tsunami asks: "Was this written by Pat Buchanan or Commander Spock of the starship enterprise??"

If anyone ghost-wrote it for Pat Buchanan, it was Ron Paul. Ron Paul agrees with Pat on this, and Ron Paul does have a way with words.

(BTW, Spock was "promoted" to Captain in the more recent Star Trek movies)


for jerabaub
Jerabaub writes: "But given that our invasion removed Iran's implacable enemy(Saddam), why wouldn't the Iranians exploit this golden opportunity delivered by President Bush to the Persian nation on a silver platter, especially since both nations are Shia?"

You're changing the subject here.

What the Bush Administration did wrong in fighting the War on Terror is an ENTIRELY separate issue from whether Ahmedinijad should have received the welcome he did get. In fact, had 9-11 not happened at all, Ahmedinijad would have STILL deserved all the denunciations we could throw at him.

Because he is the interrogator who abused and tortured Americans during the 1979 Iran hostage crisis. They still remember him. Now this torturer of Americans is the head of a state.

I know what's really bothering folks like you and Gabby and Pat: You're worried that all this fury against Ahmedinijad might help Bush make the case for war. But that would be true of any other American president. Whoever is President in 2009 is going to have to deal with the nuclear and terrorist threats from Iran and their drive to imperil Israel's existence. Even President Hillary, if she wins the election, will have that headache.

for suzerose
suzerose writes: 'he sugested further study of the historical event to include more and perhaps more enlightening input from different perspectives"

I've got news for you:

The existence of Israel, and the existence of America, are no longer subjects for "study" and debate. Anyone who wants to "study" the possibility of a world without Israel or a world without America had better be writing "alternate history" science fiction. Because it's not a proposition that's acceptable in fact any longer.

for tammy
tammy writes: "But Pat concludes that Ahmadinajead just wants to pay respect to dead Americans. If he has so much respect, maybe he should stop killing us over in Iraq. With that kind of stupid logic, thank God Pat doesn't run our country."

My prediction:
If Ron Paul wins the Presidency, he will name Pat Buchanan as his Secretary of State.

Prejudice
Just because you're prejudiced doesn't mean you have no cause. At least you should be able to see your own prejudice for what it is.

Hey, I appreciated Pat's article because statesmen do frequently appear hypocritical when they negotiate with terrorists and murderers.

But two wrongs don't make a right. Just because past generations dealt with dictators doesn't mean we have to deal with every dictator on planet Earth.

What the refusal to let Prez A'jad go to Ground Zero probably exemplifies is not how righteous our leadership is but rather how inconsequential the president of Iran is.

Gabby and Angelatc
Your suggestion that the US wipe out a nation after an attack but we should get out of the M.E. does not make sense. We launch missiles from ships. The closer the ships are, the better. If people on the ground can tag the sites, i.e. nuclear factories, it is better, since the idea is that we target what we don't like about another nation and we try to miss the main population areas which is the way the US does things.

Angelatc
Ahamdinejad always threatens the US as well as Britain as well as Israel.
Ahmadinejad can be seen on Youtube and on Memri.
They can also give nuclear stuff to terrorists for dirty bombs here in the US. The idea is if someone is your enemy and is nuts and is arming itself with nuclear weapons and threatening oneself and one's friends, that you don't wait for them to get the nuclear weapons and you don't wait for them to wipe out your friends.
N Korea, Iran, Venezuela and Cuba are all meeting and talking to each other. Iran can also give nuclear stuff to Venezuela which is closer to the US than Iran is. We are talking missiles, we are not talking ground troops. If Iran hits Israel or if Iran gives nuclear weapons to Venezuela their idea is to get the stuff into the US and to arm missiles and lob the nuclear missiles at the US, or to repeat history and arm Cuba who can aim missiles at the US.
Did you hear that Chavez did not come to the US today because he did not like the treatment that Ahmadinejad his friend received?
Did you know that Ahmadinejad was asked about the 1 million Arabs who live in Israel as well as the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank as well as about fallout on the Temple Mount, as well as Israel's likely nuclear reprisal on Iran's population after a nuclear attack? His answer: destroying Israel would bring back the 12'th imam. Arabs, Palestinians and Iranians will be happy to be martyrs. The 12'th imam will clean up the nuclear fallout.




Especially for lilly...
You must be some kind of retard to say something like this:

"I don't understand this idea that hearing Ahmadinejad is dangerous, as if he is going to endanger our Americanism."

Point 1: Imadingyjerk isn't "dangerous" because he might "endanger our Americanism." He's DANGEROUS because of his radical agenda!!! He's about as trustworthy as a rattlesnake and he makes no bones about that.

Point 2: We already have liberal left-wing lunatic lugnut "perfessers" that are twisting the minds of our young, why should we put up with yet another madman?

Point 3: Why should we give that nutjob a forum in America when he's responsible for training and providing the dirty, rotten methods and materials to KILL OUR TROOPS IN IRAQ? How would you feel if you had a son or daughter over there in harm's way, and we stupid, progressive, "tolerant" Americans give a pig like this even a chance to step on our soil?

Why don't you just get a life that is meaningful for a change and stop asking stupid questions when you know deep down, the real answers. I'm so sick of your kind of mentality that I question whether there are any Americans left that have one drop of COMMON SENSE!!!!

Thank Goodness!
"We've actually got a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate who agrees with you that Ahmedinijad, and Iran itself, are no big deal. His name is Ron Paul."




Marty
"The blind application of traditional conservative notions of prudence and restraint in the current crisis is the opposite of humility and prudence--it is arrogance par excellence."

Marty, I think you made a typo - shouldn't that be "The blind application of NON-traditional PROGRESSIVE notions ...." ??????

It's the conservatives who want the borders secured; the REAL free speech article ENFORCED (for Americans - it doesn't apply to NON-Americans); its the conservatives who want to kick A$$ and take names - it's the progressive, tolerant part of our society that has no guts and is arrogant in it's belief that we can "all just get along." You don't "get along" with a wolverine. You kill it or it kills you!!!

Just thought you'd like to know your typo was caught and "corrected." I can send you the lyrics to "Cumbaya," if you like.

Ok
I suggest you all go to Fox on the web and look for Iran within Fox and then click on videos, and look at Bibi's interview with Cavuto. he talked of the Columbia U's invitation to Ahmadinejad.

http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=iran

Iran and the Bomb
Here is a tongue in cheek thought:

If it is OK for Iran to join the nuclear club, why not hold auctions and sell a few of our surplus nuclear bombs to the highest bidders? Iran's and all those gulf neighbours are awash with petrol dollars. They can surely afford top dollars. So is the rich Asian tigers - Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. Now even China may want to upgrade. Solve the trade deficit all at once!

Pat enjoying life
Yawn. What could be more predictable than Pat taking the occasion of Ahmedinejad's visit to assume his favorite position - on his knees, hunched over with mouth agape to pay passionate, slobbering lip service to any Nazi thug or Islamofascist whackjob with murder in their heart for the Jews?

You can't really blame him, though. Pat is the Harold Stassen of our era. His life has been one of impotence and sterility (speaking of his ideas, of course) so this is really the only way he has of getting any gratification.

Tolerance?
I can't wait until the next Columbia fundraiser!
Maybe Pat Buchanan will make up the deficit.

This man should have been escorted to the U.N., given a cot in the hall, and then escorted right back out of this country.
The very idea of this man going to ground zero to lay a wreath is the most disgusting thing I have heard in quite a while.
I lived in NYC for close to 30 years and applaud the NYPD for the decision that it was a MAJOR security risk. I can just imagine the scenario if this nut paid his visit.
Watch Kevin McCullough's video post on this site.
This,posters, is AMERICA.These are just a few people who do not forget.
Exactly what would you expect NYPD to do when the riot broke out?
Watch the video.My money would have been on the crane operator. Those boys have "deadly" accuracy. "Oops, butterfingers!"

Gabby
"I say this to the hysterical men in the rightwing neo-con press: GROW UP. Be men. Learn courage, you are humiliating yourselves."

Tsk, tsk, Gabby, you're as bad and mixed up as Marty. Didn't you mean "hysterical men in the left-wing neo-LIB press, OKA the "lame-stream press?"

This has been a most amusing thread today. Some of you just can't stop bashing/blaming Bush for all the ills of the world ... and yet others actually verbalize that Pat Buchanan is absolutely right! Egad, what a mess of pea-brains.

It's just too damn bad that the crusades didn't finish the job and annihilate these barbarians when they had the chance. Likely, the world wouldn't be in the condition that it is in today. But, one thing I am sure of, Americans had better be paying attention to the islamic horde that has and is infiltrating this country. I believe that THAT is our far greater concern. We need to be watching what is WITHIN US and doing something about that!

After all, we can always take out Iran ... or, maybe not, since Boffo Bill decimated our military and closed over half our bases. God help us if Hellory Ramrod gets in ... we'll be using pea shooters if she has her way.

TO LISA RICHARDS: You go, girl. You're the one in a million I have found with more than an ounce of common sense!!!

Hm
Bush had reconstructive surgery so that he could get an airtight seal around a Saudi's a**hole, a country which also supplies weapons and support to those who kill US troops and Iraqi's. A country which also supports suicide attacks in Israel.

A-jad worse than them? Hardly. But we can't say anything bad about the Saudi's can we?

War on Terror with wide open borders and continued mass Muslim immigration? yeah, right.

Duplicity is too nice a word. Bush is a liar. I'm ashamed I voted for him. Any who'd follow him and his merry band of Wilsonian elitists to Iran are fools.

I was played the fool and learned a hard lesson. It won't ever happen again. Unfortunately it appears that many of you all are either punch-drunk, or you haven't been punched enough.

Finally!
A plumber who takes no sh!t. Glad to hear there are other conservatives who have come out of the republitard coma! I too voted for him and I regret it as much as you.If it wasn't so tragic I'd have to laugh.

And what is with these "democracies" like Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan that we have allied ourselves with?

Its pretty clear Bush has no regard for democracy. Its all about campaign donations and oil.

And...Uh
Buchanan '08!

hank
"Buchanan '08!"

You are greatly overestimating Pat's IQ. It is higher than yours, though.

Apollo Can't read
Apollo:

It was Pat's claim that Hitler had no designs on Western Europe and as such that it was a mistake for the UK to get involved in a war with the Nazis, not my own.

It is clear that Hitler's focus had always been on the East, but to say he would not have also attacked the west seems to be putting a great deal of faith on Hitler.

Japan also had no plans for world conquest, but the creation of a large self-sufficient area run by Japan known as the East Asia Co-Prosperty Sphere.

Also Japan was a defeated nation long before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And thank you for the continued use of the term so we can all see you are a racist idiot.


Hank
Ni bu shi wode pengyou.

Dui. Wo renshi pinyin. Yinwei, women bu neng xie Hanzi, wo bu yao yong zhongwen.


Gabby
I don't think we are communicating. You want the US to pull out of the M.E. and to be here in the US. You want to sit back and watch and see if Iran wipes out Israel. Iran already has about 60 missiles pointed at a country smaller than New Jersey and smaller than Taiwan by almost 1/2. All Iran is waiting for is to put nuclear weapons on their missiles. Then after Israel is wiped out and maybe retaliated by lobbing some nuclear missiles back at Iran, then you want the US to start to decide what it wants to do. Then the US should start getting its ships chugging towards the M.E. and rousing its armed forces. So it takes say 4 to 6 months for the US to get its men and ships to the M.E. This is not Bewitched. You can't twitch your nose and get them over there. 6 months after the event you want the US to lob some nuclear missiles at Iran. This scenario makes sense to you? You don't want the US to use deterrence by its presence in the Persian Gulf? You think people are going to be happy allowing Israelis to be wiped out? You think the world will value America as a valuable ally after it lets its ally Israel be destroyed? Not. And you are overlooking the importance of oil to the American and world economy. And you say I don't have a brain?


And
And you want to wait until Muslims are in the streets of America like they were in Afghanistan and beating women not wearing a burka and beheading people who don't live by sharia law and that is when you think America should get around to responding and defending itself? If they cut off the heads of the members of congress, that is when you think you will respond? How about after a couple of dirty bombs have gone off and there are hundreds of thousands of sick and dying Americans? And you say I don't have a brain?





I sure hope
I sure hope you are not raising children. The way I imagine it is, after they have committed first degree premeditated murder, you'll finally get around to thinking of the topic of disciplining them.







My message appears to h disappeared.
I said "I hope you are not raising children. After they have committed first degree premeditated murder, then it will occur to you that maybe you should begin to consider the topic of discipline."

Bytheocean
The US has left its allies to rot before and allies much much much more loyal to the US than Israel has ever been. Why should Israel be immune to American fickleness? Abandonment of allies is a very common trait of the US in fact.

And I suppose if you consider say Saudi Arabia an ally, then Israel is an ally. I tend to reject both.

And it doesn't take the US 6 months to deploy. The US can have troops on the ground in hours.


Zhongwen?
?????


Nevermind about above
Didn't think TH would display them correctly.


Akagi
To get ships over to the Middle East and aircraft carriers and the kind of carriers where planes can get gas and to get 100,000 men over with supplies for food and supplies etc takes months. Do you not remember the time ticking when the US decided to confront Iraqi troops after they invaded Kuwait in the first Gulf War? It is not a matter of hours for a military response. Granted I don't see sending 100,000 men over re Iran. But we do need the ships in the Persian Gulf and men to tag the nuclear targets and where Ahmadinejad is and where the mullahs are. Big heavy ships move slowly in the ocean and it is thousands of miles away. Once we are over there it does not take a lot of time. However Gabby was saying we should pull out of the M.E. and respond later, start all over again, after the damage is done. Granted France is on our side this time and would probably let our planes refuel. Bush has repeatedly said we do not have a problem with the Iranian people, which would mean targeted strikes and not wiping out cities, and not even use nuclear weapons just ordinary weapons, if diplomacy and intimidation and economic sanctions fail. With any luck the Iranians will vote him out of office. Such won't happen when the west honors him.





















RDF
The US can have boots on the ground anyplace in the world within 72 hours.

This is not to say they can have a force as big as Desert Storm in 72 hours, but they can have light infantry in place in 72 hours.

But you are correct that to build a massive force, the US needs time--that is a lesson the PLA has learned from the US action in the Iraq War (1991). You don't let the Americans sit there and build up a massive army--you hit them and hit the hard when they first arrive and continue to hit them--letting the Americans sit around and slowly build a massive army to hammer you is simply mindless--shows how smart Saddam was huh?

One of many weaknesses the US military has is it takes time to move it around and build a large force in place and that gives a smaller less well equipped force an opportunity to fight it and if lucky kill it before it gets to the point that it can crush you. The moral--sit and let the Americans buildup its forces at your own peril.


Veterans still getting shoddy treatment

If lawmakers and Bush cared about the troops they would have fixed this problem a long time ago!

Politico-A government report being released today concludes that wounded warriors are still getting the runaround from the Pentagon and Department of Veterans Affairs despite big promises of change after last February’s revelations about scandalous conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

The Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, says delays for disability payments still average 177 days — nearly six months — with no indication that dramatic improvement is in the offing. The GAO also found continuing frustrations and shortfalls in care for the increasing number of military returnees from Iraq.

“Delayed decisions, confusing policies, and the perception that DOD and VA disability ratings result in inequitable outcomes have eroded the credibility of the system,” the GAO says in testimony to be released on Capitol Hill today. “Thus, it is imperative that DOD and VA take prompt steps to address fundamental system weaknesses.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/veterans-still-getting-shoddy-treatment

Pat is Brilliant

Just remember it takes average intelligence to make an average mistake. It takes brilliance to be brilliantly wrong.

Pat, your pride is clouding your God given intellect. Its one of the devil's oldest tricks my friend.

Go to communion, my friend.

Gabby
Finally we agree. Absolutely stop Muslim immigration. But, Bush is letting them in by the thousands, bringing them over from Iraq. I emailed several times saying "stop!", but no.
By taking the moderates out of Muslim countries we are robbing them of what they need to change. By taking radicals out of the Muslim world we are endangering ourselves. The people cheering at Columbia U were Arab students. People who were there stated it on the internet.

Bush is worn out. He keeps outdoing the Liberals to show what a good guy he is and they hate him anyway. Would you believe it? On a liberal blog a Lesbian said she was swooning for Ahmadinejad and she might go straight for him.

I don't know about the elections. I like Duncan Hunter but he seems to be getting quieter and quieter.

One billion Muslims is why Bush is treading fairly lightly to the point of ridiculousness. It is why if he hit Iran it would be strategic, not overwhelming.








Good article
Pat, finally a voice of reason in this neocon ridiculous circus.

Pat is right yet again
Iran has not threatened the US. Iran has invaded no foreign country. Iran has such a weak military that it could not possibly become a threat to America, even if it were its wish to do so. Iran is an economically weak, third world country.

Amazingly, posters on this site talk about Muslims somehow invading this country and forcing women to wear burkas and enforcing Sharia law. Invade America: with what? This is way beyond demented fantasy.

Iran does not have nuclear weapons, and, after consistent go-anywhere, anytime inspections by the IAEA, we can be sure they don't even have a program to develop them. Furthermore, their leaders consistently say that no one should be allowed to have nuclear weapons. This claim about Iran's "secret nuclear weapons" is more outrageous propaganda by those who really want to have another war.

But be happy, warmongers. Despite the fact most Americans are now against the Iraq war, and certainly don't want war with Iran, the political class feels no need to heed their wishes. You will probably get your war. I hope you feel good about the hundreds of thousands that will undoubtedly die in the next totally unnecessary war.

"Bloodthirsty" does not even begin to describe you.

And amazingly, most of you call yourselves "Christians."

Paola
You have to read the whole discussion otherwise you do not know to what people are responding. If I said things it was in reaction to Gabby saying we should pull compeltely out of the M.E. and wait for something bad to to happen. Only after something happens should we consider doing anything. No preemption. No deterence. Then she said we should protect our borders.

We don't need to be invaded. We have let these people into the country legally or allowed them to cross the border from Mexico. They are already here. A small minority can do a lot of harm when the population is terrified and intimidated and deballed and has no leaders and has tied the police up, when the population is too dumb to recognize an enemy until the knife is at their throat and then they would say "oh my"
or "oops".



hank
said: "Its pretty clear Bush has no regard for democracy. Its all about campaign donations and oil."

And I suppose you and that other Einstein above you are going to vote Democrat this time! Well, good luck with that. I guess you'd rather have higher taxes; no military; and amnesty!

Gimme a break. You guys had better wise up as to who is going to protect you better. Neither party is worth a sh!t right now, but that's our fault. We keep electing the same ol' political pimps who keep on doing the same thing. Only way to tell them apart is to choose which way you want to get raped first!

Gabby
Said: "In fact, you and Mr. Bush do that very thing which will do the opposite of what you hope to achieve (attack a nation which did not attack us and draw the ire of the Muslim world) by leaving the borders wide open (no military to protect us). I guess your plan is the sitting duck plan."

Gabby, get it through your head, we don't have to "draw the ire of the Muslim world". We already have it - JUST BY OUR VERY EXISTENCE. IT IS THEIR AIM TO DESTROY US NO MATTER WHAT WE DO OR SAY. You need to get a grip here and make up your mind exactly what you DO believe.

Otherwise, your 7:04 post was very good - which you posted just after the above quote. What's up with that? You got a split personality or something?

Paolo
Why don't you just go find a corner to play in? You make no sense at all and your animosity and pettifogging is beginning to tick me off!

Tell that to the ROV
Gabby:

Tell that to the Vietnamese and the Hmong for that matter, the Taiwanese, and we can soon add the Iraqis to the list.

And WWII, well the US stayed out of the war until it was attacked, in really didn't get concerned in Asia until Japan started pushing into the European colonies--that is what pushed the US to the embargo--not its action in China from 1937 onward.

The there is of course Somalia...and I could add a number of other cases to the list. Oh leaving the Kurds and the Shi'a to rot in 1991-I almost forgot about that one.

The track record of the US standing firm with its allies since 1945 has not be one where I'd put much faith in the US sticking around when things got hot--sorry, but your record speaks for itself. How long before the US declares victory in Iraq and runs home?




Correction
Meant to say "it really didn't get concerned," not in really.

Allies
Gabby:

I will try to explain this again to you.

You seem to think that the US--like some sort of Paladin--stands behind its allies no matter what and that if the US left Israel to fend for herself that would be oh so terrible as the US never treats her allies this way.

The record of the US over the last 50 years or so is quite clear that it will throw any ally over into shark infested waters when it suits its purposes. I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing, just stating that as a fact.

As for WWII, I didn't bring it up--you did--just making it clear the US didn't get involved until it was attacked.

Is 58,000 or so enough for me--not Germane to the points. We are not talking just about the troops. The US completely abandoned its ally. Even the former Secretary of Defense during the war, Melvin Laird called the US treatment toward the ROV shameful. The US cut off all funds to the ROV and when the north violated the peace accords, the US refused to even use airpower to stop the violation. Do you call that a reliable ally?

Oh--then of course is the 1948 cutting off of aide to Chiang, which ensured his defeat. And since we are on the subject--how about the 1982 so-called "Third Communiqué" that Reagan signed cutting off weapons sales to Taiwan until Bush decided to sell the 250 F16A/Bs in 1992 (and that was for domestic reasons not any concern for Taiwan and after the French had decided to sell the Mirage 2000s). The act a clear violation of the TRA. Then of course the US voiding of the 1954 US-ROC Mutual Defense Treaty--something that the switching of recognition didn't require.

Oh and in more recent times, George Bush scolding the democratically elected leader of the ROC for wanting to hold a referendum demanding that China remove the almost 800 missiles pointing at Taiwan from Fujian in front of Wenjiabao I might add. I guess American support for democracy as is claimed in the Bush doctrine is for entertainment value only.


Muslims
And Gabby:

How do you plan to stop Muslim immigration? You know India, Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines, China, France, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Russia, etc etc all have large Muslim populations--how will you know a person coming in from the Philippines is a Muslim or not? How do you know I am not a Muslim?

All Muslim men in the US as security risks huh? And then what? Sounds like Executive Order 9066 to me. What would such designation mean--internment? Would a court in 2007 agree? Maybe we can just do away with those and have rule by decree.

Oh this note--at the Little White House in Georgia that have an excellent museum and a timeline which has a prominent section detailing the creation of 442nd Regimental Combat Team saying the being an American is not restricted on one race..something along those lines. Funny it didn't mention E.O. 9066 AT ALL. I wonder why?


You are right
Yes--that was Bytheocean's claim it seems.

So then you agree with my point that the US will chuck its allies over the side in a heartbeat if it suits its purposes? If so I don't see where we have a disagreement. At least on this issue.


Another thing
Gabby:

I don't think you are going to get very far on those lines saying the leader of their faith is a pervert psycho.

If I said Jesus was a perverted homosexual freak--you think I'd warm many Christian hearts? I don't think so.

Oh the plus side, most Christians will just prey for me. Saying bad things about Muhammad can lead to people getting killed and things getting burned to the ground.


Akagi
You misread Gabby. She pretty much does not care whether Israel gets destroyed or not. She cares about America. I care about Israel.

Gabby wants us to follow the cold war rules but as they say Reagan had x number of missiles pointed at Russia while he negotiated. But Gabby wants us to pull out of the M.E., which means not having the ships that can launch missiles at Iran. Therefore she really does not want the use of the Cold War model.

On another blog I read that the Iranian people are getting very uptight about whether the US will attack. Personally I think we are far from it. However Israel's success in turning off Syria's mother of all best air defenses, has been a good wake up call, both to Syria and to Iran. I think the Iranian population getting all frayed is a good thing. Maybe it will lead to regime change without a shot being fired.

Next question, when the Soviets sold the mother of all best air defense systems to Syria and to Iran, did they know it wouldn't work? Did they just take the money and smile? Or did they think they were selling good equipment?

I heard the other day Newt Gingrich said that one of the things Reagan did to the Soviets was to sell totally deficient oil production technology
on the black market which the Soviets bought and then it blew up in Siberia. Was this a repeat? The French and the Germans I believe have been selling a lot to the Iranians as well. Are they selling bad equipment or good equipment?





The US has done it too
Yes. I corrected myself above. I confused your point and hers--mostly because she got defensive when I correctly pointed out that the US has had this habit for at least 50 years of casting its allies aside when it suited its purpose.

Just before the 1991 war--the Iraqis got US sourced equipment for their air defense system and it contained viruses which crashed their systems. So it is possible this happened to Syria.

Note the PLA/PLAAF is looking very carefully at the American computer infastructure as well. One key weakness that the Chinese have identified is America's heaviy reliance on information systems and these could be exploited so as to degrade or even eliminate the ability of the US to carry out operations.


Gabby
You said: "Young Muslims and Muslim women must be reached with the truth that Mohammed was a pervert, murderer, and thief, and there is something wrong with anyone who would admire him."

Good luck with that since they are "trained" from 4 years on up to be "martyrs" for their faith. And with the blessing and pride of their mothers.

You said: "The West must provide the opportunity for Muslims to have truthful reflection about Mohammed. Modern communications provides that opportunity."

Yeah, we all know that you can TALK to a muslim...they're soooo reasonable. See Van Gogh sliced up like bacon on the sidewalk in Denmark! And note, any electronic "communications" we might broadcast would never hit their airwaves!

You said: "We need a global debate about why one billion people promote a pervert, thief, and murderer. Once people start speaking the truth, Islam will implode and collapse from the weight of its own error."

Yeah, that'll work. We already have "global debate" by and through the Useless Nitwits. THAT'S CERTAINLY WORKING! Anyone who dares speak out against their beloved "prophet" is scared for their life.

Nope, the ONLY thing that's gonna make these people sit up and take notice is a few devastatingly strategically-placed bombs. They have no respect for anything BUT power!

One last caveat Gabby - I hope that YOU are paying attention to what these "immigrants" are doing in Spain/France/England. THEY are not taking very strong measures to control or return them to their dessert ratholes either. Let's pray to God that America wakes up before it is too late here, as well.

we don't have to be so so stupid
The Dutch have started a get jobs program for Muslim youths and started a program to get them jobs at handling luggage at the airport. Whatever happened to brains? We the West have surly lost ours.

Akagi
The Israelis turned off the Syrian air defense without the Syrians even knowing it was not working. They didn't know it crashed. There were no red lights blinking. Everything appeared to be working properly. It did not crash.

You are right about our vulnerability. There are bombs that can explode and all computer networks will fail. We should probably have computer- down- days where we see how what back up systems our emergency response and defense systems have. I still pay for a land line because my computer crashes enough that Vonage can't be relied on.






EMP
There are bombs--both nuclear and non that can cause EMPs to knock out systems but in theory US military systems should be shielded from that. Non-military economic systems such as powergrids and the like may not be, but the focus of a Chinese attack would be in the area of operations (say the Taiwan strait) and the command and control systems inside the US. I would think all of these systems would be EMP proof.

What I am talking about more is hacker attacks or introduction of viruses or other malware that will bring down various systems. The Chinese have already shown they can now take out Satelites


news today
Did you hear the news today that 12 stakes that held down rail lines in Chicago were removed which could have resulted in commuter trains crashing?

I hold it against Bill Clinton that they low bidded our military technology to China which allowed them to learn our systems. How stupid can one get?





other news : (
I'm afraid our president finally lost his marbles today. The radio says he asked China to intervene in Burma for the Burmese rioting in the streets for freedoms.(Myanmar) Why did he not ask the Thais or the Indians who understand freedom? Why basically ask China to invade Burma? Will we have to remove Bush because of mental incapacity? Geeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz!!!! : (


China
I am not aware of any military technology being sourced to China aside from things like clothing--the black berets that were once worn only by the US Rangers was decided by the SOD under Clinton that all of the US Army would wear them--they were--at least at first--made in China.

The China problem was selling of technology by US firms to China. The Ron Brown DOC issue. And outright theft, spying and bribary by China during the Clinton years.

Fred Thompson tried to get to the bottom of the mess but America's so-called hero John Glynn killed any true investigation into the matter. I guess we know now what the price was for him--one shuttle ride to space.


sorry
The radio misrepresented the facts about Myanmar.

Islam
Christianity had reformations starting around 1517.

Islam could have a reformation. Islam started around the 700's. That means that around 200 years from now, they may BEGIN a reformation. It is approximately 1308 for them.

Gabby
"Will we have to remove Bush because of mental incapacity? "

Wow, we are closer in agreement than I thought!"

Which just goes to show how bad reporting affects politics. See my 4:10pm comment.

Akagi
"Fred Thompson tried to get to the bottom of the mess but America's so-called hero John Glynn killed any true investigation into the matter. I guess we know now what the price was for him--one shuttle ride to space."

I would be more impressed if Fred Thompson had succeeded.

Gabby
Geez Gabby, an olive branch?

I was about to tell you to keep your bridge ... it would probably collapse on me anyway! :0)

Gabby
Sorry, I should have cited the post I was responding to:

"Gabby writes: Thursday, September, 27, 2007 6:49 PM
OR
Here, here! Let's join together in hope that Americans DO wake up about Muslim immigration. I believe it should be FOREVER banned.

I'm glad you see, as I do, that Islam is hopeless. This is our only hope of fighting the Jihadis (however we decide to do that!)"

:o)

TO WHICH I REPLIED:

"Geez Gabby, an olive branch?

I was about to tell you to keep your bridge ... it would probably collapse on me anyway!" :0)

There, that should clarify my comment.

Gabby
Sorry, I should have cited the post I was responding to:

"Gabby writes: Thursday, September, 27, 2007 6:49 PM
OR
Here, here! Let's join together in hope that Americans DO wake up about Muslim immigration. I believe it should be FOREVER banned.

I'm glad you see, as I do, that Islam is hopeless. This is our only hope of fighting the Jihadis (however we decide to do that!)"

:o)

TO WHICH I REPLIED:

"Geez Gabby, an olive branch?

I was about to tell you to keep your bridge ... it would probably collapse on me anyway!" :0)

There, that should clarify my comment.

Gabby
Another danger is that the religion allows polygamy which does not have to be legal in this country for the people to practice it. Polygamy means that the men have more than 1 wife and thereby multiply their children, usually on the public dole. This is another way to overtake the population here, who do not practice polygamy.


Bytheocean
Right on! And another way they are weakening us and the whole of our society is that they are "offended" by numerous things, so we have been "accommodating" them by denying OUR citizens the rights they have always had. Case in point: A school (and I forget which and where at the moment) recently dropped hotdogs and other food items ("offensive" to them) because of "muslim complaints" to the school district!

And what about the cab drivers in Mpls. and NY? THEY won't haul anyone with any liquor or a DOG! How nuts have we become anyway?
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