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Tuesday, September 11, 2007
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Retreat of the Antiwar Democrats
by Pat Buchanan
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In November 2006, Republicans were voted out of power in the Congress and Democrats installed to bring an end to U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq.

The war had been going on as long as America's war on Nazi Germany. No end was in sight. U.S. casualties and costs were rising. Bush's approval rating had sunk to record lows.

The day after the GOP rout, Bush cashiered his war minister, Donald Rumsfeld. In December, the Iraq Study Group, chaired by Bush I Secretary of State James Baker, released its report.

"The situation in Iraq is grave and deteriorating. ... A slide toward chaos could trigger the collapse of Iraq's government and a humanitarian disaster. ... The situation in Baghdad and several provinces is dire. ... Pessimism is pervasive. ... Violence is increasing in scope, complexity and lethality."

His policy collapsing, Bush made a last throw of the dice. Gen. David Petraeus was named to command U.S. forces, and his request for a "surge" of 21,500 additional U.S. troops accepted. Petraeus also demanded and got 10,000 more support troops.

Still, by April, as the "surge" brigades began to arrive, Harry Reid, Senate majority leader, was declaring, "This war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything." Democrats, the party base goading them on, tried to impose upon Bush, as a condition of further funding for the war, deadlines for the withdrawal of U.S. forces.

Bush vetoed the bill. He was sustained. Then, he rubbed the Democrats' noses in their defeat by demanding and getting $100 billion more to finance the surge and the war. There are today 30,000 more troops in Iraq than when the Democratic Congress was elected.

As Petraeus testifies, the antiwar movement appears broken. Reid has said his party will not try to de-fund the war or impose new deadlines. It will follow GOP Sen. John Warner, who has suggested it might be helpful if the president withdrew a brigade by Christmas, to signal the Iraqi government to get its house in order. Petraeus has agreed to that.

Next April is the date when the Iraq Study Group said all U.S. combat brigades should be out of Iraq. By then, Bush and Petraeus will have tens of thousands more troops in Iraq than when the Democrats were elected and the ISG reported. The lame duck is not all that lame.

What happened to the party of Speaker Pelosi and Reid, which was going to end U.S. involvement in the war and not permit Bush to pursue victory the way Richard Nixon pursued it in Vietnam for four years?

Answer: Terrified of the possible consequences of the policies they recommend, Democrats lack the courage to impose those policies.

When it comes to issues of war, Democrats are an intimidated lot. Sens. Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Dodd and Reid were all stampeded by Bush into voting him a blank check for war in October 2002. Why? Because they feared Bush would declare them weak or unpatriotic if they denied him the authority to go to war, at a time of his choosing, until he had made a more compelling case for war.

Now they regret what they did. But, in a showdown, they will do it again. For Democrats have been psychologically damaged by 60 years of GOP attacks on them as the party of retreat and surrender.

Their hero, FDR, was posthumously ripped apart for Yalta, the appeasement of "Uncle Joe," and the abandonment to communism of Poland and Eastern Europe. Truman fired Gen. MacArthur, fought a no-win war in Korea and was savaged, along with Gen. Marshall and Dean Acheson, by Joe McCarthy. By 1952, Truman was at 23 percent and finished. In January 1954, the Tailgunner was riding high at 50 percent.

Came then Vietnam and the credible charge that the Liberal Establishment, The Best and the Brightest, had marched us in, then cut and run, abandoning our Vietnamese and Cambodian allies to a holocaust, and bringing on the worst strategic defeat in U.S. history.

When Ronald Reagan, in the closing days of the 1980 campaign, declared Vietnam a "noble cause," the liberal media leapt on it as a gaffe. It wasn't. Reagan was wired in to Middle America.

John Kerry understood this. Thus, he ran in 2004 as a decorated Vietnam vet, not the onetime icon of the antiwar movement.

Bush is winning today because he has jettisoned the jabber about global democracy and argues that a U.S. withdrawal risks a strategic disaster, national humiliation, massacre of our friends and triumph for al-Qaida. Democrats, fearing he may be right, are in paralysis.

Scourged for 20 years over "Who Lost China?" they don't want to spend the next 20 years answering "Who Lost the Middle East?"

Thus the rout of the peace Democrats. But the movement will be back. For, Petraeus' good news notwithstanding, there is no light yet visible at the end of this tunnel.

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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strange bedfellows indeed
"Thus the rout of the peace Democrats. But the movement will be back. For, Petraeus' good news notwithstanding, there is no light yet visible at the end of this tunnel."

It sounds almost like you're hoping for an eventual recrudescence of the far-left antiwar movement. Wow.

Politics makes strange bedfellows, and this new antiwar coalition between the isolationist far-right (Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul) and the appeasing far-left (the Congressional Progressive Caucus) is a sight to behold. I'm glad I lived long enough to see it.

Buchanan is right
unfortunately.

The democrats totally lack spine-even
on the rare occassions when they are
actuaqlly correct.




Pat, Pat, Pat
Pat, it is just killing you and guys like Ron, I'm as stupid as I look, Paul, that your isolationism isn't working.

But just for a minute ask yourself what would happen if we just up and left. Oh, I know, nothing worse than "boat people," "reeducation camps," and "killing fields," all phrases we owe to the likes of john Kerry.

Alas, it would be worse, much worse. Osama would be in Iraq, along with the Iranians, in different parts, of course, riding the "strong horse."

Sometimes things that are bad, and Iraq is bad, are much better than what could be worse, much worse.

And don't give me the "we should not have been there in the first place" argument. Sunk costs and suck costs. The only question is what to do now and cutting and running is a fool's game.

Pat's Love-in
"No light at the end of the tunnel"

Whoda thunk Pat would end up as a headband-wearing, pot-smoking hippie peacenik? Bwahaha!!

on the money!
Bush may have no clothes, but the dems have no huevos.

It wasn't the war
Repubs didn't loose in '06 because of the war, they lost because of 6 years of left wing policy that turned the Dems into conservatives.

As Joe Sobran said, Bush's legacy will be that he left Clinton a legacy as conservative.

Repubs didn't come out and vote Dem to denounce the war, they merely didn't come out to vote because they had nobody to vote for.

Deskjockey
Oh, I think you have something there.
The Dems who entered Congress largely did so using quite moderate (even *conservative*) platforms. They mimicked conservative thought to appeal to the real mainstream of America.

By the same token, the Republicans lost ground because many Americans thought they weren't acting like true Republicans: where was thte determination to reduce pork, keep federal government to the minimum required involvement?
In short, why were Republicans acting so... Democrat-like?

And yes, the war certainly had an impact. Many Americans are not, perhaps, so much *peace-loving* as they are *comfort-loving*... and it is distinctly uncomfortable to Americans to have to listen to the casualty roll go on and on. For some people, better to abandon even a just fight than have to bear the burden of listening to gloomy news during supper.

It's about principle
The Democrats seem amazingly successful at anything that doesn't require principle. for instance, they are incredibly good at political infighting for the feel no shame in denouncing in the opponents the same crimes and methods they use themselves.
But when it comes to taking a bloody nose for *principle*, that's another thing entirely.

To Warren Small
Zionists?
Oh, NOW I get you. Zionists, ooooh, scary bogeymen hiding under every bed.

Oh, by the bye, I suspect you want the 'neocons' out for fooling Pres. Bush, and I suspect you want Pres. Bush out for being fooled (and possibly for supposedly lying, though you won't be able to provide reasonable evidence for that).

But what I REALLY would like to know, is this: if all this "Pres. Bush is a cowboy" stuff was so obvious to so many people, what kind of idiot would be fooled into signing his resolution of force? Could such spineless or craven or brain-dead people ever be trusted to govern?
If not, then many, possibly most, of the Democrat members of Congress should be put out to pasture.
But the principle of true, thorough accountability is not the sort of thing the antiwar crowd expouses, apparently.

Hank......
...The Dems have no eggs? Huh?
Did you mean the Dems have no cojones?

Buchanan Not A Conservative
Buchanan, the one-time Nixon assistant who with his boss looked askance at the anti-war protestors, now roots for the anti-war protestors. Someone should send Buchanan some stickers for his car saying "Give Peace A Chance" and "Vote McGovern."

Buchahan is not a conservative.

21st Century Doctrine
As a historical rememberance, it was WW II 's "Greatest Generation," who responded in the finest tradition of our forefathers to freedom-loving people hope for liberation and peace. Will this grand tradition to be relegated to the dust bin of history in the 21st century

The 20th century was perhaps the bloodiest and darkest in the history of mankind, and the record shows that it was bloodthirsty, collectivist-socialist regimes---Bolshevist, National Socialist (Naziism), Fascist, whose leaders were the brutal executioners of millions.

Collectivism by its inherent nature breeds murderous butchers like Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong , Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, Castro, Pol Pot, as does terrorist organizations.

Because the U.N. in its League of Nations-Abyssinian moments has been ineffectual (Saddam was in violation of 17 U.N. resolutions), it may be the role of America and allies to shape the destiny of the 21st century, ridding the world of tyrants and terrorist organizations who grab power and rule by fear, torture, butchery, while arming themselves with bio-chemical, nuclear weapons with intent to plunge the world into a world-wide nuclear holocaust.

We are now engaged in global war against these butchers with no recourse except to stop them, and stand firm, and united in purpose to their destruction.. " A house divided against itself will not stand." Our cause to prevent a 21st century bio-chemical, nuclear holocaust is moral, just, and noble.

21st Century Doctrine
As a historical rememberance, it was WW II 's "Greatest Generation," who responded in the finest tradition of our forefathers to freedom-loving people hope for liberation and peace. Will this grand tradition to be relegated to the dust bin of history in the 21st century

The 20th century was perhaps the bloodiest and darkest in the history of mankind, and the record shows that it was bloodthirsty, collectivist-socialist regimes---Bolshevist, National Socialist (Naziism), Fascist, whose leaders were the brutal executioners of millions.

Collectivism by its inherent nature breeds murderous butchers like Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong , Hitler, Mussolini, Saddam, Castro, Pol Pot, as does terrorist organizations.

Because the U.N. in its League of Nations-Abyssinian moments has been ineffectual (Saddam was in violation of 17 U.N. resolutions), it may be the role of America and allies to shape the destiny of the 21st century, ridding the world of tyrants and terrorist organizations who grab power and rule by fear, torture, butchery, while arming themselves with bio-chemical, nuclear weapons with intent to plunge the world into a world-wide nuclear holocaust.

We are now engaged in global war against these butchers with no recourse except to stop them, and stand firm, and united in purpose to their destruction.. " A house divided against itself will not stand." Our cause to prevent a 21st century bio-chemical, nuclear holocaust is moral, just, and noble.

SEPTEMBER ELEVEN: "BLESS THEM ALL!"
SEPTEMBER ELEVEN: "BLESS THEM ALL!"

2008
Gutless almost to a man to end a failed war they road to political success in 2006, the Democrats have decided to use the war as background noise for the 2008 vote. Troop levels will remain much as they are now in 2008, military successes will be won, soldiers will die, the sectarian violence will continue, the Iraqi government will remain ineffectual. When Hillary Rodham Clinton debates Fred Thompson, Rudy Guiliani or Mitt Romney one year from now, the mood music will be the war. Mrs. Clinton and the Democrats are banking on the Republican candidate being tied to an unpopular war in the same way Hubert Humphrey was in 1968 with the caveat that the Democrats can present some sort of domestic agenda that can get them to 50 percent of the vote.

The combination of a continued war in Iraq with mounting casualties and the strong possibility of some sort of economic recession(probably of short duration), the Democrats look strong in 2008 to not only win the presidency but to win three or four more senate seats. They need not risk facing off with Bush regarding the war, a face-off they can not win.

Walk Away
Staying in a game you are losing, pumping good money after bad is a losers position. Knowing when to fold them is as important as when to hold them, probably more so. You can overcome tossing a winning hand but rarely overcome foolish play.

Time to walk away.

2008 and the Supreme Court
The winner of the 2008 presidential election will almost certainly pick the replacements for Justices Stevens and Ginsburg in his or her first term. And, if re-elected, the 2008 winner would likely replace Justices Kennedy and Scalia with the possibility of replacing Justices Breyer and Souter. If troops aren't largely withdrawn by the fall of 2008, Mrs. Clinton's chances of winning the presidency are enhanced greatly. Is risking dominance of the Supreme Court worth who rules in Iraq? Not in my book.





What is the difference?

What is the difference between what Petraeus recommends and what Hillary and Obama is saying?

Both sides are trying to score political points instead of dealing with the reality in Iraq. The truth is a surge or withdrawal is a tactic not a plan.

The real issue is Iraq is torn apart by sectarian tribal violence that traces back to 700AD. The concept of forming a strong federal government in the near future in Iraq, that is like the west is not achievable.

The other solution of local control in Iraq is merely a containment strategy that requires the U.S. to get off Muddle East oil ASAP.

It does look like the new strategy is to build up strong local control while the military fades out of fighting in Iraq. And I find it strange that Hillary, Obama and Biden are against this idea since they claim they support the concept.

The only real debate is do we have a long term military presence in Iraq. Yet all the front runners from both parties seemed to support the idea of our military being in the Middle East long term. It seems both parties want our military to protect our oil interest in the Middle East and not focus on getting off their oil. This is the part I disagree with!

READ MORE

http://www.controlcongres.com


Hustler writes:
Walk Away
Staying in a game you are losing, pumping good money after bad is a losers position. Knowing when to fold them is as important as when to hold them, probably more so. You can overcome tossing a winning hand but rarely overcome foolish play.

Time to walk away.

This isn't a Saturday night poker game between buddies where there are no logn term consequences! That type of muddled thinking will bring disaster. Another idiodic myth is that once OBL is dead all the radicals will make nice. If we cut an run in Iraq we will do the same elsewhere. Why loose 3000 troops in Korea? Why defend Afghanistan? When Chaves starts trouble in South America will we stand our ground? Once you get in the loosing mode it is hard to break out of.

Warren Small ... WAKE UP!
Your remarks:

"If the Army will be too tired to fight by next spring, why worry about exact timetables for withdrawal? Reality has accomplished the mission for us whether we like it or not." What BS is this? We fought WWII with a MUCH smaller population base supporting a much larger army and those soldiers weren't rotated out after 12 or 15 months ... they fought on for four bloody years until the job was done! Exhausted? Would you people get real!

"We lost Iraq the moment it became clear that they weren't going to welcome us with open arms. We had no Plan B for holding down a sullen, mutinous "liberated" people."" Maybe YOU missed the welcoming after the liberation ... and the proudly held purple fingers ... quit trying to rewrite a history we all saw with our own eyes ... or open your eyes and see reality!

Long term we must win this or the fanatics will keep pushing until they are hitting us every day in our own country! Those "dots" aren't hard to connect ... it's only if you're a leftist fool that it's a problem!

True Conservative
We had a draft in WW2.

In addition, in WW2, our effort was not about some grandiose and reckless vision of imposing democracy, but rather to destroy the war-making capability of our adversaries(which largely meant destroying their industry).

Buchanan asserts Bush has largely jettisoned the nonsense about Iraqi, or mideast, democracy.

I am not so sure about that. Whether Bush currently speaks of it or not, it was the underlying rationale for invading Iraq...Iraq was to be a model, a democratic bastion in the mideast that would serve as inspiration for muslims in other nations to emulate..the thinking being that democracy would remove the reasons for Islamic radicalism(oppression and lack of opportunity).

I do agree with Pat that the democrats lack the courage of their convictions.

I still think Americans want our effort in Iraq not to have been in vain. To that end they support our leaving in place an Iraq that can sustain and govern itself, even if partitioned into Kurdish, Shia and Sunni regions with a nominal national government.

But that does not mean I think the invasion was wise.

It was anything but.

I think a 14% approval
rating of the Dhimmicratically controlled Congress says it all. Reid and Pelosi were God's gifts to the GOP.

Prior to General Petraeus' testimony, 63% of the American people viewed him and his efforts favorably. Its probably 80% now after Lontoss, Skelton, Wexler and their Code Pinko bunnies dishonored themselves. The stark contrast between Petraeus' and the Dhimmicrats' integrity was a powerful ad for the GOP. Similarly, thank you moveon.org for your "Betray Us" ad. That one ad alone will garner an extra 5% in Nov 08.

The word is losing not loosing
In my ten years on the internet, I am discouraged that many conservatives who post on web sites as varied as Town Hall and Free Republic do not know that losing and loosing are radically different words. Maybe conservatives are as stupid as those on the Left, just not as morally defective.

Jerebaub
How does having a draft for WWII change the fact that soldiers then, drafted or volunteered [and MANY, MANY volunteered] spent four long years fighting and were not "exhausted"? Your comment is totally irrelevant!

Was this invasion wise? It did free 25 million Iraqis from a murderous tyrant and it did send a strong message to the fanatics as to what we will tolerate! It may need a little more reinforcement before the fanatics slink back to their holes; but if we get out of the fight, you can bet they will be coming after us far more frequently than before!

As for an Iraqi democracy ... we already have one albeit is being nurtured in it's crib. I don't write it off as impossible ... no more impossible than Japan or Germany was! It's clear the vast majority of Iraqis [the non-fanatical ones] who proudly voted and held up their purple fingers ALSO want a democracy!

TrueConservative
A draft has everything to do with it.

In WW2, We stormed the beaches of Normandy, the island of Iwo Jima. Today, a miniscule segment of our population assumes all the burden while the overwhelming majority of us storm the shopping malls of America. That is what our president has deemed to be our sacrifice...that we Americans "go shopping" in this war on terror.

If, as Bush says, this war on terror is pivotal to the continuation of our way of life and civilization, and if Iraq is the central front on this war on terror, how can you argue that only a miniscule segment of our population assume this awesome burden?

U.N., and other human relief organizations, estimate that as a result of our invasion of Iraq, roughly two million Iraqis have fled Iraq for Syria, Jordan, Iran. Add to that the more than one million Iraqis(probably much more)who have been internally displaced, you are talking about well over 10%, and probably at least 15%, of the population that have become refugees. If that percentage were here in America, it would constitute well over 30 to 40 million human beings!

On the ink-stained Iraqi thumbs, the proof is in the pudding. It was more a census and referendum where tribal leaders and shieks told their flock how to vote. If it were an exercise in democracy, then the leaders whom the Iraqis elected prefer to take extended vacations rather than deal with the heavy lifting of political reconcilation.

And on that, they probably mirror the sentiments of most Iraqis.

Maybe you should take off your blinders.

Bush Knows Islam's Goals, Dems Do Not
Bush doesn't yield to public opinion in the War on Islamic Terrorism because he knows if he doesn't fight it now, no matter who wins in 08, the terrorists will win shortly thereafter. They will win slower if McCain or Thompson is elected than if Clinton and Obama are elected-but they WILL win!!

And before they win, a US city WILL be nuked-guaranteed.

Bush knows what really happened in 2001 when he inherited a military incapable of fighting any enemy anywhere, and an intelligence group incapable of stopping any terrorist attack on the US. It will get much worse the next time we're attacked.

However, despite the obvious the Antiwar Democrats do not have a clue.

Ease up on Pat
Buchanan is not a "peace loving hippie-flower child," and he is not advocating a withdrawal of US forces from Iraq (at least not in this piece).

He is just pointing out how feckless the supposedly rabid anti-war left looks in Congress. The anti-war Left IS rabid, but Democrats in Congress are cowards and fearful of being out maneuvered on foreign policy once again. All they can do is stay as far from the Iraq war as possible and hope that the surge fails.

They have hedged their bets pretty well. It may not be a win-win for them, but they can't really lose either. In the absence of a political compromise in Iraq (a doubtful occurrence) and a cessation of sectarian violence (even more so), the Dems will go into 2008 looking incredibly strong.

That is, unless they panic and cut off funding for US soldiers. This would be a Pyrrhic for the GOP and all patriots: Such action would be catastrophic to the Democratic Party, but even more so for our nation.

LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL


.....Pat ...

.....We saw that light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam ...it was the headlight of a train engineered by Ted Kennedy and the Democrat Congress .....COLOSSUS

Paleo-Patrick
Rooting for The Drug-Addled, Hippie Leftover, Immoral, lying Cowards. How sad a once TRULY GREAT man has fallen so far :(!

Patrick Buchanan is a true conservative
and I don't say that just because I share the same first name.

A true conservative follows George Washington's famous admonition to avoid entangling foreign alliances. And that's exactly what Pat Buchanan advocates.

Bush's war in Iraq will be only a footnote in history; Bush's unpublicized surrender of Southeast Asian trade to China will be his actual historical legacy. Wait and watch.

At home, Buchanan's book "The Death of the West" is already a classic.

Buchanan stands head and shoulders above the neocons who have brought this great nation to such an infernal state that in our next election our "choices" are between national socialist Ghouliani and international socialist Hillary Clinton.

I supported Bush when he stood
on the ruins of TWT and told us that those responsible would be hearing from us. I cheered when we attacked the Taliban. I was less enthusiastic about Iraq. Let's lock up Afghanistan, I thought. Let's get OBL first. Saddam is helpless, we have flyover's every day. His gunners can't get even track our planes, never mind hit them.

But still we went in. Now we control neither country. And we're stuck with it.


Bush is the true "isolationist"
Anyone who travels the world, or does business in foreign countries, will recognize how Bush has isolated the US from the same wonderful people who gathered round and cheered us six years ago today.

They're not cheering any more.

Bush's unique bogus-Texan combo of arrogance and ignorance regarding the rest of the world is obnoxious and childish. His effrontery, and yes, his war, have caused damage that could take decades to repair. Latin America -- where the people cheered in the streets when Reagan won in 1980 -- is now virtually lost as a friendly continent. And Bush plays footsie with all the corrupt thugs who run Mexico, instead of teaching them about the virtues of liberty.

Like Pope benedict, Ron Paul reaches out to the world with humility and conviction, offering a welcome mat to all rational discourse. Bush's irrationality has mystified the world, and alienated a good part of it.

Tragically, it was all unnecessary.

krystalbird
huevos = cojones
Son iguales.

Cojón IPA: [ko'xon] (plural: cojones) along with huevos (literally "eggs") is one of the most common ways of referring to the testicles in Spanish.

for Tallil2long
Tallil2long writes: "But what I REALLY would like to know, is this: if all this "Pres. Bush is a cowboy" stuff was so obvious to so many people, what kind of idiot would be fooled into signing his resolution of force?"

What Bush is doing in Iraq now was NOT covered in the original October 2002 war resolution passed by Congress. Go read it and see for yourself:

The original October 2002 war resolution described the threat posed by the Saddam regime and authorized the use of military force to put an end to the threat posed by the Saddam regime. That's all. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Saddam was ousted 4 years ago and he's been dead for over a year. So what are our troops still doing there now?

Bush says we're trying to use military force to enable the Iraqis to build a democracy. That was NOT in the original war resolution. (The resolution did cite the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, but that Act covered only peaceful humanitarian aid, NOT military force.)

Bush says we're trying to forestall a bloodbath. That was NOT in the original war resolution.

Bush says that if we withdraw it will leave a power vacuum for Iran. Iran was NOT mentioned in the original war resolution.

Hence this ENTIRE surge was NEVER formally authorized, or even IMPLIED, by the Congressional war resolution of October 2002. And to the extent that Bush has been waging war for years AFTER the original stated goals of the original war resolution were already met, that could qualify as an impeachable offense.

And there is your answer.

Whoever pulls us out of Iraq is going
to be blamed for the (very bad) consequences. The Dems don't want that to be them, and rightly so. Status quo until they've won everything in 2008. Then they can pull us out immediately and have enough time to weather the storm before 2010. At least I think that's their thinking.

Fun thread
"Pat, it is just killing you and guys like Ron, I'm as stupid as I look, Paul, that your isolationism isn't working."

Doubtful since we’ve never actually tried engaging the world solely in peaceful trade and minding our business otherwise.

"But just for a minute ask yourself what would happen if we just up and left. Oh, I know, nothing worse than "boat people," "reeducation camps," and "killing fields," all phrases we owe to the likes of john Kerry."

I’m sure the millions of Iraqis who have been displaced, killed, witnessed loved ones die horrible deaths, are facing a wrecked economy, and choose to flee to a hell hole like Syria will appreciate you wanting to prolong their current misery to alleviate a possible future misery.

"Repubs didn't loose in '06 because of the war, they lost because of 6 years of left wing policy that turned the Dems into conservatives."

It was a mixed bag. I’d probably say, judging from blogosphere chatter, that they lost the fiscal conservatives with reckless spending and ballooning deficits. They probably lost a few Reagan Realists with the war and the growth of the Federal government. They lost the libertarians with the war, reckless spending, Fed govt growth and the Patriot Act and company, and they lost a lot of the moderate independents on the war.

"Buchahan is not a conservative."

I guess. I mean, it’s getting pretty clear that you can’t be conservative unless you’re enamoured with war.

DEFINITION OF WINNING
What is the Definition of Winning

1. We Kill or Capture all Al Qaeda and Terrorists in Iraq and seal the borders so more can not come in. This can be accomplished in several decades.

2. We Train and Equip the Iraqi Defense Forces to the 350,000 level with the twice the capability for the 130,000 Americans. They will then be able to provide total security for Iraq without US involvement. At the rate the Iraqis are coming up to speed this can be accomplished by 2050.

3. The Democratically elected government truly represents the people and provisional governments provide bottoms up support. Then over 80% of the Iraqis will support the government and Al Qaeda will be driven out of the country. This will probably occur sometime after 2100.

Once any one of these are accomplished we can CLAIM VICTORY!

Jim Frego
Grants Pass, OR

Buchanons load of horse manure...
pat the reason tried mightily to impose their will on the Iraq War and with Gen Petreaus announcing a timetable schedule of troop withdrawals, they have actually won the debate..this is something bush has steadfastly disagreed and is now aquiesing on, because he knows the Iraq War is a killer for the repub party come 2008.

one other thing. democrats even in the majority simply dont have the votes to overcome minority
republican "obstructionist" tactics such as filibusters and prez vetoes..the same tactics they denounced democrats for when they were the minority. It has absolutely nothing to do with
"cowardice" or being "weak on" national security.
those are rnc talking points, not facts.

Bush is right - but the real consequence
Bush/Petraeus have been right with the Surge. It is working. However, the idea of a timetable to withdraw seems fundamentally flawed - and extememely dangerous in my mind. The real truth is, and no one wants to talk about, is that we need to be there forever, or at least a very long time. I don't like it, but it is simple logic:

1) If you believe there is real risk to the U.S. and the Iraq front is key to that threat, and that Iran is even a bigger threat, then there is no way we can get out. If you believe in a one year timetable, how do these risks get mitigated? The risks have to increase, not decrease with a pullout.

2) If you believe there is little or no risk that terrorists won't be emboldened, that Iran will fill the void, and US suffer the most humiliating of defeats, then bring them home tomorrow. However, there is absolutely no evidence to support this line of thinking. All to the contrary.

3) If truth be told, it doesn't matter how good the Iraqi security force is - if there is real risk and threat to America, by the emboldened terrorists and Iran, are we going to rely on them to secure us?? Very irresponsible to do this. But a pullout would in effect do this.

4) It also doesn't matter if they have a government that works. If the risk to America is there, we must be there to meet it until there is no more, or minimal risk.

We need to get beyond the rhetoric and political game playing and face facts. We need to be there for a very long time. I don't like it, but that is the day we live in

In WWII, at the battle of Stalingrad, 1.3M Russians, and 900K Germans lost their lives in one battle - one battle - for Russian freedom. We have lost 3800 brave soldiers. By pulling out, by committing to time tables that make no sense, we dishonor those 3800. We need to finish the job, and that job will take a very long time.



For Pity's Sake...
I genenerally don't comment on nonsense like this, but I've had it up to my eyebrows. Anyone who isn't an AINO (American In Name Only) knows we have to fight, and fight to win, no if's, and's or but's.

Pat, does the acronym STFU mean anything to you? Look it up; it'll stand you in good stead.

I don't usually agree, Pat,
but this time you finally sound like General Patton who said Americans don't like to lose.

The Dems. made one of their worser bargains with the devil when they decided to throw in with leftover 60s crowd and the most radical of the netroots. Blatantly declaring the war lost by Harry Reid would've been an outright traitor in WW II or during Korea.

Cheering for defeat is never popular, except among people who just hate Am. and hate being Am. These people never did support the troops. They hate the troops for 1) being so "stupid" for volunteering (remember John Kerry's joke?) and 2) for demonstrating a bravery and valor the Daily Krap and Morealong.little doggie bunch can never comprehend.

Another year in Iraq is not such a huge deal. It took 6 yrs. (1945 to 1951) to democratize Japan, and it was we were a strict occupation, MacArthur wrote the consitution, and we still have significant numbers of soldiers stationed there. And Japan was a more homogeneous, established society than Iraq (concocted after WW I)is today. (To "get" Iraq, see Lawrence of Arabia.)

A rock and a hard place
I supported Bush but now I'm out walking the streets for Paul. The Democrats don't have half the balls of this guy which makes it even more fun. Well, we all hope the surge works (whatever that means) but in the meantime, we better figure out a way to take care of our own. Reagan, like Paul, had the right idea on the Middle East. The poor Dems are stuck in no-man's land like always.

Until the War is Won
During my short military career I've been deployed to Cuba, California, Korea, Arizona, Korea again, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Hawaii and in the near future Afghanistan again. I volunteered 8 times to go to Iraq, but ended up going to the northern kitty litter box instead. Despite the hardship I'll continue to go until our enemies are dead and the war is won. Unlike most democrats and like minded leftist loons, I refuse to sit idly by while my country is in crisis because there is no honor in sitting on the sidelines. When it is all over, the ones that will truly be revered are those that sacrificed the most for the country they love. Those that continue to deride our country or refuse to even lift a finger, the "summer soldier and sunshine patriot" will only leave a forgotten and sorry legacy doomed for the dustbin of history.

for jacmicwag
jacmicwag writes: "Reagan, like Paul, had the right idea on the Middle East. "

Reagan was a strong supporter of Israel--so strong that he got a larger percentage of the Jewish vote than any other Republican candidate for President ever.

Ron Paul is not.

for renny
renny writes: "It took 6 yrs. (1945 to 1951) to democratize Japan,"

American troops were not waging COMBAT in that time period, remember?

The Japanese had formally SURRENDERED in 1945, remember?

That's NOT the situation in Iraq. No one has surrendered and what we are looking forward to is endless combat.

I'm amazed, absolutely amazed, how pro-war folks like you don't see any difference between a peaceful military occupation and a counterinsurgency military campaign.

for FreedomResponsibility
FreedomResponsibility writes: "In WWII, at the battle of Stalingrad, 1.3M Russians, and 900K Germans lost their lives in one battle - one battle - for Russian freedom."

In your refusal to give an inch on the war, you are talking and acting just like the GERMANS at Stalingrad, not like the Russians.

Hitler insisted that the Germans had to stay in Stalingrad as long as it took, no matter how many casualties they were taking. And he exhorted his generals, "Where our soldiers set foot, there they remain!"

That's EXACTLY what you are advocating for U.S. troops in Iraq, isn't it?

The U.S. is conducting an occupation of Iraq. That puts us in the same category as Germany conducting an occupation of Russia. Both are refusing to be flexible, both are refusing to give an inch, both are continuing to fight to the bitter end as long as it takes regardless of casualties on either side.

for Dread
Dread writes: "Doubtful since we’ve never actually tried engaging the world solely in peaceful trade and minding our business otherwise."

Sure we did. That was the first policy we tried as soon as we ratified our Constitution in 1789. And here is what happened:

First the Brits kicked our asses in the War of 1812, and burned our capital.

Next the (Muslim) Barbary pirates kept raiding our peaceful merchant ships and terrorizing their crews.

By 1820, it was obvious that while America wanted to live in peace and separate from the rest of the world, the rest of the world would not leave us alone.

So in 1820, Thomas Jefferson organized a naval expedition to kick the Barbary pirates' asses in what is now Libya. And America got her first taste of a foreign war in the Third World.

Didn't you learn all this in history class in school?


for Dread
Dread writes: "I mean, it’s getting pretty clear that you can’t be conservative unless you’re enamoured with war. "

From what I've seen on townhall.com, these days there are THREE basic things you have to believe in in order to be considered a "true conservative" today:

1. America is at her best when she is waging war. That's when the American people really rise to the occsaion. Human beings grow stronger and better when they are fighting; they become soft and stagnant when they are at peace.

2. Abortion is murder, and any woman who aborts her fetus should be imprisoned for murder. A fetus is entitled to Fourteenth Amendment protection.

3. Homosexuals are as dangerous to America as al-Qaeda jihadists are (maybe even more so); and should be treated like the disease-ridden, perverted subversives they truly are.

Otherwise you must be a "RINO" or a "Democrat" or a "liberal" or a "loonytarian" or some other non-conservative thing.

Ron Paul
Whenever I hear Ron Paul speak, I'm reminded of a rape victim, curled up in a ball on the floor, crying and trying to understand what she did to deserve to be raped. By his way of thinking, we were out late at night, without a male escort, dressed like a floozy, and therefore ASKED for it! Just like that rape victim, we did not deserve to be attacked and, just like that rape victim, we need to get mad at those who caused us pain and seek JUSTICE. Let the criminal get away and he'll only committ more crimes, against you or others. Being "nice" to the rapist isn't going to make him go away or make him "like us better".

Money
It is all about money. Once the democrats regained power, as chairs of committees they could now route the 100's of billions of dollars from the protracted war to their states. Giving them more power and funds to keep power. It is not about democracy, it is about money and power.

SteveL
But so did Stalin - he told his people to hold Stalingrad at all costs...and what a cost! The Russians were fighting for their lives, the Germans where in Stalingrad unjustly - for conquest and power. I'm not talking tactical retreat, but the imperitive not to strategically retreat. Hitler should have tactically retreated, but he didn't. Stalin was going to do neither, and it would have been a disaster for him to tactically retreat...but that's not my point.

America is not fighting for conquest or power, but for freedom - American freedom, and the Mid-East freedom. The terrorists are fighting for conquest and power. People are trying to portray America as the conqueror, the imperialist, but it is not true. To my knowledge (pls check me) we haven't taken a dime of oil. Some imperlist nation. We should be ashamed of ourselves if we are imperilists!

My point was, if the Russians saw the threat of losing their freedom and way of life to the Germans, and valued it to the tune of 1.3M lives (and most despised communism, but loved Russia), and the German's saw the threat (albeit once they saw what losing Stalingrad meant of Russian expansion), and sacrificed 900K, why are we ready to throw up the white flag after 4K??? If we pull out. It is so hard to see how we can pull out of Iraq for a long time - given the real threat to freedom, and our way of life.

If Iran gets that bomb...it could be alot worse than the battle of Stalingrad. The price of freedom has gone up in our day. Are we willing to pay it, like our fathers, and other nations?

What the hells does that mean?
hank writes: "on the money! Bush may have no clothes, but the dems have no huevos."

The Democrats have no eggs? I don't get it.

Mary C.

I know mine!
Steve L: "So in 1820, Thomas Jefferson organized a naval expedition to kick the Barbary pirates' asses in what is now Libya. And America got her first taste of a foreign war in the Third World.
Didn't you learn all this in history class in school?"

That's where the line "from the shores of Tripoli" comes from in that Marines' song.

Mary C.
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