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Tuesday, March 27, 2007
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Interventions Without End?
by Pat Buchanan
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"Whatever happens in Iraq, retreat from the world is not an option," wrote Financial Times columnist Philip Stephens last weekend.

Why not? Because a world map highlighting those regions where the West's vital resources are located would exactly overlap a map highlighting those regions where state power is crumbling, disease and poverty are pandemic and violence rules.

"The implication of this is obvious," says Stephens.

"We can proudly declare ourselves isolationists, resolve to eschew 'imperialist adventures,' decry liberal interventionists such as Britain's Tony Blair and damn the neoconservatives around U.S. President George W. Bush. But, one way or another, the West cannot avoid getting involved. On this, moral impulse and hard-headed interests are as one."

We are fated to intervene forever. "The reality of interdependence of a world shrunk by globalization cannot be wished away."

Put me down as not so sure. For if America is defeated in Iraq, as we were in Southeast Asia, who will ever again intervene in the Middle East?

As Stephens writes, Europe's "eternal role" seems to be that of the "concerned bystander" to disasters anywhere. And, revisiting the 20th century, the United States did not declare war on the Kaiser's ally Turkey in 1917, despite the Armenian massacres. Nor did we did confront Stalin over genocide in the Ukraine. FDR recognized Stalin's regime as it perpetrated that holocaust. Nor did we intervene to halt Mao's slaughter and starvation of millions of Chinese.

America looked on during Pol Pot's genocide. Clinton stood aside in Rwanda. No one is calling for the 82nd Airborne to be dropped into Darfur.

No matter, says Stephens, the West cannot abide the emerging new world disorder. But, again, that begs the question: Who is going to intervene?

If Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the U.S. investment in blood and treasure, end in defeats, who does Stephens think is going to send troops to rescue imperiled "liberal democratic values"?

In his second inaugural, President Bush declared that America's national goal is now to "support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny on earth."

Are Americans still willing to support that utopian mission with blood and billions of dollars?

In a Gallup poll this year that posed the question, "Should the United States try to change a dictatorship to a democracy when it can, or should the United States stay out of other countries' affairs?" -- by near five to one Americans said, "Stay out." Fifteen percent said "yes" to the Bush commitment. Sixty-nine percent said to stay out of the internal affairs of other countries.

Columnist David Broder cites a Penn, Schoen poll conducted Jan. 30 to Feb. 4. By 58 percent to 36 percent, respondents said, "It is a dangerous illusion to believe America is superior to other nations; we should not be attempting to reshape other nations in light of our values."

"By an even greater proportion -- almost three to one," adds Broder, "they say the main goal of American foreign policy should be to protect the security of the United States and its allies, rather than the promotion of freedom and democracy."

By 70 percent to 27 percent, Americans agreed, "Sometimes it's better to leave a dictator in charge of a hostile country, if he is contained, rather than risk chaos that we can't control if he is brought down."

By 58 percent to 38 percent, American agreed with the statement that "if negotiating with countries that support terrorism like Iran and Syria will help protect our security interests, the U.S. should consider negotiating with them."

"Practicality trumps idealism at every turn," writes Broder.

"Idealism"? That is true only if one buys the proposition that refusing to talk to enemies and fighting unnecessary wars is idealism rather than folly. FDR and Truman talked to Stalin, Ike invited the Butcher of Budapest to Camp David, Nixon went to Beijing to talk to Mao, Reagan accepted Gorbachev's invitation to Reykjavik during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Were all these men devoid of idealism?

Stephens believes the successors to Bush and Blair will find they have no option but to intervene to prevent the new world disorder.

Perhaps. But given the rage and revulsion Americans feel at having been stampeded into Iraq and pinioned in Baghdad, unable to stop the bleeding but unwilling to walk away in defeat, the American appetite for intervention has probably been sated for a long, long time.

U.S. global hegemony is history. Like every nation, America must now choose -- between what is vital and worth fighting for, and what may be "idealistic," but is not worth a war.

Not long ago, America produced 96 percent of all she consumed and was the most self-sufficient republic in history. With statesmanship and sacrifice, we can become so again. With leaders like we once had, we can chuck the empire. For what good has it done us?

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About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
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Redeploy Now!!
The enemy is at our door, screaming about U.S. imperialism and the theft of their nations resources. This enemy is vowing to reclaim what they feel is theirs, and we should not stand in their way. Their guerilla fighters manage to slip past our efforts at security, and they manage to kill Americans every day, regardless of our efforts to stop their activities. We cannot even spot the enemy because they are able to blend in with the populace, and often the inhabitants of the region will even hide the enemy from our security forces.

Accustations fly from our citizenry, accusations that claim those in charge are profiting from our struggle. The critics reason that the fight will never be resolved in favor of the U.S. because there is too much money to be made by those that really do not seek victory. Patriotic hearts take exception to such comments, but as yet our leaders have given us no tools with which to counter the accusations.

Those on the left have developed a solution for handling such matters: redeploy the troops to friendly ground. To resist means more American deaths, and there is no reason to believe such killing will stop so long as we are in the disputed territory. Thus, if we cede the territory that the enemy desires, our people will be safe from harm, and we can quell the calls to end our occupation of land that others feel is rightfully theirs to control. Likewise, it is wrong for us to force our method of government upon those that desire self rule in the disputed land, for they feel that they would be better off living under the dictatorships that their culture adores, and it is wrong for us to compel them to abide by our ideas about freedom and self governance.

Thus, in order to end the American deaths, abolish the forceful adaption of others to our culture, and promote the ownership of land to those that feel they rightfully own it, we should redeploy from the southwest United States.

Every day, an average of 25 Americans are killed by illegal aliens, far more deaths than we incur in Iraq. If we deliver the disputed lands to the Mexicans, then perhaps they will be satiated and cease their raids across our borders. American fatalities will drop, and our people will be safer.

Likewise, since the Mexican invaders do not wish to assimilate themselves within our culture, they obviously value their form of government over ours. Ceding the southwest will allow them to form their own nation state, and they can once again enjoy living under the umbrella of the same brand of corrupt government they enjoy in their former homeland.

It is time that the Democratic Party leads the charge for the redeployment of American citizens from the areas designated as the Northern Republic of Mexico. To stay there means American deaths, American imperialism, and just plain impolite behavior. We are more "correct" than that.

Pat is a communist
Its as accurate as is Pats representation of Bushes foriegn policy.

By neo-con standards, Reagan was a dove
By the standards of today's neo-cons, President Reagan was pretty dovish, if not altogether peacenik:

Reagan restored good relations with our European allies, which had been ruptured under Carter.

Reagan was willing to negotiate with both Red China and the USSR.

Reagan concluded an agreement with the USSR to drastically reduce nuclear arsenals for the first time.

Reagan did not advocate a pre-emptive nuclear attack on the USSR.

Reagan opposed a military draft.

And Reagan never waged all-out war on the Soviet bloc.

By today's standards, that sounds pretty dovish, doesn't it?

Pat
is not a communist, he is an isolationist.

SteveL -

France did then and still does now hate our form of government and our success, England liked us, Reagan changed nothing there.

Reagan called the USSR an evil empire, good negotiating on his part, no arguing it worked.

No one in their right mind ever advocated a pre-emptive strike against the USSR, not even (R)s.

In the last decade, only two Democrats and no (R)s in the Imperial Federal Government have advocated a military draft.

Just out of curiosity, who is waging or even advocating all-out war on the Soviet Bloc?

I would like the USA to be more isolationist, but I don't see that happening with the "leadership" we have in Congress and the Executive.

I think we need to fight Islamofacism at its source, not wait for another attack on our soil.

Who indeed?
"Put me down as not so sure. For if America is defeated in Iraq, as we were in Southeast Asia, who will ever again intervene in the Middle East?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't have the answer to that question. But anyone who thinks a course of non-intervention in the Middle East is the ticket to safety and security had better have a backup plan ready to roll when the Middle East comes intervening here.

Pat hit the nail on the head
Our nation must have access to essential resources necessary to our economy and standard of living.

Our foreign policy must dedicate itself to that goal. That should be its primary focus.

The system worked well for decades. What we could not acquire here domestically, we obtained overseas: various minerals and ores, and of course oil.

Our standard of living was, and is, the envy of the world.



But about six years ago, a utopian and arrogant transformation occurred. A strange fixation seized the minds of our highest government officials: to sacrifice our finest men and women, and loot our treasury, in some chimerical pursuit to "bring the blessings of freedom" to peoples whose concept of "freedom" is what the Prophet Mohammed dictates, may Allah bless Him.

Rather than concerning itself with what was in our national interest, our foreign policy elites began to sanctimoniously lecture the world on democracy; began insisting upon elections in the muslim world..the results of which were gains for extremists(Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, Hamas in Palestinian territory, Hezbollah in Lebanon, etc.), and an increase of instability throughout that region.

I think the American people have come to see the consequences of this administration's messianic mission to remake the world in our image, judging by some of the polls Buchanan cites.

Time to return to a foreign policy dedicated to pursuing our national interests.

"history"
Buchanan is not the first to suggest we should pick our fights. But since he uses the term "history" he should learn from it before speaking out.

Our failure to stay the course in Vietnam led to the belief that America had no will to fight. It led to communist infiltration in El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua. It led to the Cuban invasion of Angola and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan eventually led to bin Laden, al Qaeda, numerous terror attacks against the US in the 1990's and finally 9/11.

Withdrawal from Iraq will result in the short term in another human slaughter of biblical proportions. And the long term we will face an even more dangerousand intractable enemy and more 9/11's.

Iraq is a fight WE HAVE ALREADY CHOSEN. We have nothing to gain by quitting and much to lose.









Loyal Democrat
I'm curious how much time you spend framing long,ridiculous posts filled with srawman talking points.

It must be awfully depressing seeing the world with such cynicism and negativity.

feedback on posts
jerebaub--
EXCELLENT-- as usual! It is not only hubristic, but also naive to purport to engage in nation building... and WAY too expensive and counterproductive. Amazingly, Osama was shunned in the Islamic world right after 9/11... but we attacked the wrong bad guys, took out Saddam (as Osama wanted to do), destabilized the region, and reaffirmed to the Islamic world their perception of us as Israel's stooge and imperialistic.... all at STAGGERING and neverending costs to America.

merry_go_boy--
agree... most people really do not realize what groups/causes like the C.F.R., PNAC, AIPAC, NAU, The Security and Prosperity Patnership, La Raza, LULAC, etc. are REALLY up to. If one tries to point out what these limited agenda special interest groups advocate, or their origins and financial backing, there is this reflexive platitudinous ad hominem bleating about "moonbat conspiracy theory," "anti-Semitism," "xenophobia," "conspiracy theory," or "isolationism." But their OWN WORDS are self-incriminating.

doug--
bad drugs there, buddy... Pat B. is an America First patriot and TRUE limited govt. conservative who does not suffer disingenuous, ulterio-motivated conmen/fools like neoCONS and RINOS. He also correctly sees that the worst foreign threat to America's future lies within our borders-- the ILLEGAL alien horde which will destroy us socio-economically if not stanched and reversed. We cannot afford that "cheap" labor.

Yak-
Stop "yakking"... we need to get the RIGHT bad boys over there, not take out Iraq because the neoCONS wanted permanent bases there to protect Israel's flank... they began publicly calling for that in 1996 (PNAC, AIPAC)-- 5 years before 9/11.

When we go to war, we should do so VERY sparingly, only for specific, certain reasons, with clear objectives, with a relentless intent to win, against certain enemies, with good plans and execution-- the Bushies/neoCONS did NONE of that. They spawned a civil war becuase of feckless foolishness. Those neoCONS were morphing up facile excuses/justifications faster than unlicensed, drunken, ILLEGAL aliens evading the law.

Down the tubes anyway...
This country is on its way down anyway - why worry? Plenty of arrogant know-it-alls in education, a nanny government that uses tax money as power, lots of welfare and give-aways for the "special interest" groups, electronic toys/cars/shopping for the lazy well-to-do morons and 12 million illegals to do the grunt work. So who the hell is going to stop this train to oblivion? Another "conservative" president - an isolationist - the hypocrits running the country now? I think not. This country is full of lazy, shiftless self-centered morons whose only thought is how they can get their hands on someone else's money and throw it away on drugs, booze, gambling, electronic toys and cars. Goodbye United States - it was good while it lasted.

Silver Platter
What Pat and Democrats propose is to hand Iraq over to the insurgents on a silver platter by setting a timetable for withdrawal and refuse funding---like Democrats did and handed Nam over to the Communists---snatching defeat from jaws of victory. We clearly won the ground war in Nam, as General Giap acknowledged, years after, in a published interview. As a result, America lost the respect of the rest of the world.

The Chinese Communists nailed it by defining "America as a paper tiger." With this image of America, our enemies know that we will quit rather than staying the course. Any ally who decides to align with us better have second thoughts before doing so, because they know we will quit and leave them high and dry to face the enemy alone, instead of staying the course.

Look around you.
I have drug dealers and pedophiles living in my neighborhood in multi-million dollar homes. I can not communicate with the workers the contractors send to work on my house and are doing the wrong thing. The police cannot respond to thefts by the customers of the drug dealers because they are busy with Hispanic gangs. I can not get my 88 year old mother the emergency care she needed because there were people who could not speak English receiving free care in the emergency room. Care for drug overdoses, wounds from weapons and children with the flu. She nearly died and would have if I had not been a real pain in the butt and demanded care. She has her own insurance and could pay but could not get care and I live a thousand miles from the Mexican border.

We defend Wal-Mart while they open a branch of the communist party in China, the same country who sends us tainted wheat that killed my friends cat. Wonder if that wheat made it into something I am eating. I still own a piece of a wheat farm that can make more money not growing anything and we are buying wheat from China?

The president of my country revels in packing lettuce in Mexico when farmers in California can only survive by breaking the law and hiring illegals. Giant corporations break the law and hire illegals to work in their billion dollar casinos and build million dollar homes and do so with a wink and a smile from the government.

Our schools are a mess because parents have abdicated their responsibility and both permit their children to be lazy and disorderly but then use the courts to hamstring the schools from using discipline.

I am so mystified by the people on this web site who can do nothing but bash the libs and war monger in the middle east while our country looses its way. This is becoming a country of uneducated lazy fools. I don't agree with Pat on becoming totally isolationists but what we are doing is catastrophic and an over-response is likely what is needed. Keep at it Pat, you are a voice in the void that deserves a hearing.



Right on, Pat
It's getting to be something of an embarassment, but, as a hardcore liberal, I find myself in agreement with Buchanan on the Middle East and American intervention generally.

His list of "non-interventions" should tell us something; the US has NOT been concerned with waging a war against evil. Like any sensible government, our government (under both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives) has generally attempted, with varying degrees of success, to protect the national interests of our country.

Ideologues of left and right never really understand this. Leftists think the US should simply abase itself and give everything to all the oppressed third-worlders, while rightists think we should be either isolated or endlessly aggressive. Buchanan isn't promoting either one of these approaches; instead, he is in what I consider to the be the true American mainstream on foreign policy.

Would that our President be so inclined!

I never thought Pat
would resort to using polling results in an attempt to prove the rightness of his arguments. Ferchrissakes, for a brief period a majority of the Northern public was ready to string-up Lincoln, bring the troops home and let the South secede from the union. And there were plenty of Pat Buchanan-type journalists in the north beating that same drum. FDR faced the same thing -- polls & media demanding that he "negotiate" a peace with Japan and bring the boys home immediately. History always repeats itself and we never seem to learn from it.

Victory, 15 Years Later
It was, believe it or not, much easier to be a Cold War Leader than a leader today. The world was essientially divided between East and West; Democratic or Communist. We had our bastards (the Sha and Franco), and the Soviets had thiers (pick from a list of hundreds). We had nukes as did they. We had no choice but to "keep the communications open" (there were dozens of diplomatic protocols) and live. To do otherwise would have been catastrophic. They were rules of what was allowed and what wasn't. A few times those rules came close to being ignored (Cuban Missle Crisis, the Yom Kippur War, the murder of Major Nicholas by KGB officers), but all in all, a President just had to be "open to peace" and manage affairs (the never ending peace process).

Its much different today. The Mullah Kleptocracies, international terror agents, nukes, dirty bombs, targeting of civilians, etc... There is no Andropov, Stalin, Brezhnev, or Gorby to find an understanding. Even in his last violent, paranoid months, Stalin never would have uttered such violent public rhetoric as we've seen out of Tehran today. And now we have the PRC.

Our buisnessmen sold out a decade ago (and who complained Clinton was a socialist?). Clinton gave the Chicoms everything they wished for, our Fortune 1000 companies went on a Asian splurge and took 4 to 6 million jobs with them. For the time being our industries have prospered. Labor costs are down, which in turn has kept inflation at bay. Our economy is much more diverse. We have seen a devastating attack on our financial centers, the Dot Com bubble burts, the Housing Market bubble burst, the export of much of our unskilled and skilled factory capacity, and yet our amazing ecnomy rolls on.

There is now finally some disquiet even from the Asiaphiles. It appears the Chicoms got quite a bit of our hi tech know how. Oracle, Microsoft,GE, IBM,Motorola, Nokia, Siemans, etc... have seen clones of thier products all over China. China confesses they are innocent, and darkly warns that we need to be less rude. China now is building deep sea nuke subs, anti satellite missle systems, very modern fighter and medium and long range missles. Much of this is ending up in Iran. Big Surprise. Almost all of China's military hardware was delivered with American know how. One pundit calls Southern and Northern California the new spy capital of the world, the place is so infested with Chicom spies.

Welcome to The Brave New World.

utah
Being a leftist is really where the depression, cynicism, and negativity thrive.

Leftist see mankind as a despoiler of the planet, they see hatred existing in practically every person, they regard most of their fellow men as being too stupid to think on their own, they abhor success in others, and they preach the victim mentality to people that never before thought of themselves as oppressed.

Leftist identify people strictly by their race, and never let an opportunity pass whereby they can remind all non-whites that they are inferior and therefore need "special help" from more sensitive whites.

Leftist see planetary destruction around every corner, whether it's too hot, too cold, too nuclear, too populated, or whatever. Heck, even Goldilocks managed to find something Just Right.

Leftist constantly scream about how unfair life is, how others are living their lives improperly, and generally just consider life one gigantic hassle that requires incessant protests.

As a rule, Leftist spew despair and negativity. Those that ridicule such despondent attitudes are just having fun. Try having fun sometime, if you aren't too busy complaining.

Burnham, Buchanan & the Middle East
The late James Burnham, one of William F. Buckley's first hires at NATIONAL REVIEW and winner of the Presidential Medal of Honor(granted by Ronald Reagan) once said that the sole reason to be involved in the backwater of the Middle East is the oil under its soil. The relevance still stands. Who cares what sort of government- dictatorship, theocracy, monarchy, democracy- that a particular Middle Eastern state has if they do not impede with the free flow of oil.

Top Five reasons to Abandon Iraq
Top Five Reasons to Abandon Iraq

1. It must not be that important. After all; the commander in chief George W. Bush told me the only thing I needed to do was to go to the mall and buy stuff; like duck tape.
2. “Our culture is just as bad as their culture” why defend it?
3. “We have looted and raped that region for decades; it is time to stop.”
4. “We can loose this one and still survive.”
5. “Other countries just want to be left alone.”

Bush is accused of lying; he is even accused of fabricating 9/11. But; if he really is this evil genius why did he not turn the emotion of 9/11 to galvanize and mobilize this nation?

Why, in the heck, did he tell us to go buy duck tape?

Why is it Democrats that mobilize to defeat the military impetus of this nation while Republicans, for the most part, ignore or even vilify; the Minutemen Project, Gathering of Eagles, and any other patriotic endeavor?

My guess is just as good as anyone; but I believe Republicans are afraid of a mobilized nation. Democrats are too, they just were too weakened by the country’s mood at the beginning of it all, to be able to counteract the rebellion of the extreme left. The balance of power was in favor of the “peculiar.”

Is “our culture not any better than theirs?”

Really?

Do we force people to pray five times a day under the threat of corporal punishment?
Do we allow only one religion and only one religious book inside our borders?
Do we believe Jews to be sub-human?
How do we treat women?
Is it Abu-Grabe and Guantanamo really as bad under us as it was under Saddam?

Now, let’s analyze the “looting and raping:”

Ancient Mesopotamia has been looted and raped by:

The Assyrians, The Babylonians, The Persians, The Greeks, The Sassanids, THE ARABS, the Mongols, The Turks, The Safavids of Iran, The Ottomans, The Britts, and Saddam Hussein.

It is a fertile, rich piece of real state in a bad neighborhood.

Liberals believe that borders are permanent lines drawn on the ground with a thick Sharpie ®

Actually, nations exist because armies exist, just like your nice middle class bedroom community exists because of an armed martial organization called ‘the police.’

Poles are not Russian, are not German, because they push themselves against the push of both neighbors.

If Iraqis don’t push back against Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Syria, they’ll be gobbled up by their neighbors. Or survive as a Shiite puppet regime of Teheran.

The last time we ‘stopped interfering’ in the region was when the ‘righteous’ Jimmy Carter decided that the Iranian Shah was a bad man put in power by the CIA and that if we would just withdraw; the Iranian people would enter into a new era of peace and love. But they didn’t.

It is called “balance of power” and it means that if the USA is weaker that only translate into a "stronger someone else;" not another 'hippie peace loving foreign nation.’

Capicci?

When we moved out of Iran the Russians moved in. Who would you know is building those pesky nuclear power plants today? Who invaded Afghanistan?

The only way the US can become like your beloved Socialist Scandinavian countries is if we invent another mighty military power to guarantee our security. But there is none.

Europe can be cute the way they are ONLY because we guarantee their security. Otherwise they would have to cut their vacation time to pay for their military.

By the way; if I am going to be raped I surely hope it is by the Americans. Judging by Germany, South Korea and Japan; they are sure to bring soft music, adult beverages, KY and prophylactics.

Which takes me to the next point; can we really loose this one and survive?

Evidence is to the contrary. When the Soviet Union collapsed we turned 'isolacionists,' we though the world would become most peaceful and we will reap a “peace dividend.” We gutted the military.

Worldwide, the number o casualties from terrorist acts skyrocketed. Starting with Bill Clinton in the middle 1990’s. I am not saying ‘because’ of Bill Clinton; we were all in this “go to the mall” mentality.

“The eight year period 1987-1994 saw 9,575 global casualties from terrorism. But over the next nine years the (1995-2003) the total jumped to 27, 608.” (Thomas Barnett)

Our economy is based in oil. Not just your SUV, but the plastics that make our health industry, the composites that make our aeronautics industry, our medicines, our computer chips.

Do countries just ‘want to be left alone?’ Did we stay put after Great Britain withdrawn from our small thirteen colonies? Or are we still expanding?

Why is Buchannan fixated in fity states?

Because he is afraid of diluting our racial make up.

Turks were at the gates of Vienna once, but Europe pushed back.

North Africa was European once but Islam took it over.

The question is do we bring (oil rich) Islam into the global economy -for everyone to benefit-or; do we allow the forces of “turning the clock back” to fester and eventually expand?

Buchanan is wrong: Is it better to fight a 200 pound gorilla than a 500 pound gorilla.

the zeal to label Pat
There seems to be a passion to Label Pat and paint him into a convenient little box, a box that is not quite in line with 'correct thinking' of course.
As for this knee jerk support for our current regime's penchant to intervene. I would suggest that our Founders soundly rejected the notion of America as Global Watch Dog.
Let us return to taking care of our own land and resources and people.
The money squandered in Iraq, only benefits a few Multinational Corporations who happened to have gained the contracts to rebuild the very same land we bombed into the dark ages just a few years earlier.
In this turn of events who is the winner.
Winner--- Multinational Corporations with fat Defense Contracts
Loser--- Young men and women in Uniform, playing rent a cop for these first mentioned investors
Loser--- Iraqi men, women and children, and especially the Christian minority population which is now fleeing to Syria
Loser--- The Western democratic gains of Iraq, under Baathist rule
Loser--- The health of Iraq's population now exposed to 'depleted' uranium munitions waste
"our generous donation to their well-being".
Loser--- US taxpayer to face the bill
Loser --- US pensions being bled by inflation, thanks again to the Iraq war costs.

So I don't think Pat Buchanan is so far afield.
Rather most Americans have forgotten their own heritage and what a 'Classic' liberal worldview once taught.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us!

Pet Peeve
Mao-

It is "duct tape". (YThough someone created a brand called "duck tape".)

It is tape for securing duct work. There is no tape specifically designed for repairing aquatic birds. Thus, no duck tape.

Don't worry, you are only one of millions who thinks "duck tape" exists. Just drives me crazy.

the source of Islamo-fascism
Pat says: "I think we need to fight Islamofacism at its source, not wait for another attack on our soil."

Iraq was NEVER the "source" of Islamofascism. Saddam was neither a Sunni extremist (like Osama) or a Shiite extremist (like Ahmedinijad).

The two "sources" of Islamofascism are Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Being bogged down in Iraq has HURT our ability to confront Iran effectively, in many ways. It sure hasn't helped in any way.

And the attitude of too many Americans that "They can have my Hummer when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" is what generates the insatiable demand for Middle East oil that empowers Saudi Arabia.

You want to "fight Islamo-fascism at its source"? Then going to war against Iraq was NEVER the right thing to do.

to those who still support the Iraq War
For anyone who still supports the Iraq War, I have TWO questions:

1. How many years do you want our troops to take casualties over there before you will admit enough is enough?

2. What is the endgame in Iraq that YOU would like to see so that YOU will conclude we've done as much as we should and can come home?

Frankly, all the supporters of the Iraq War have an OBLIGATION to explain to the rest of us what is going to keep our commitment there from being infinite.

Where we are
What to do now? 1. Survive this unfortunate Administration.
2. Elect Duncan Hunter.
3. Keep our heads and be ready to stand our ground, right here on our own ground. Foreign nations will act somewhat differently toward a nation that has chosen a military man with a cool head as President. But the foreign affairs mess that the Bush League Bunch has brought about must be handled, with American Security our uppermost priority. The Muslims who have been infiltrating our society for nearly fifty years are here to trouble us.

Why go to war?
The question of what should be the reason's for going to a full scale military action like the one in Iraq or the previous one in Viet Nam should not be left to chance or the whim of a president but should be debated then written into law so there is no more confusion of arguements about why we ask our military to lay their lives on the line. Limited military actions are covered by the war powers act but going into a full scall war seems to be up to whatever tickle's some president's fancy at the spur of a moment. My suggested is that invading another country with our full military might should only be in repsponse to a direct attack such as Pearl Harbor and declaring war on Japan was correct, or the attack on 9/11 and the invasion of Afghansitan was correct only the war should have been declared by Congress. Under this system the war in Iraq would not be correct. The other criterion would be honoring treaties and supporting alliances like NATO and SEATO. But the war against global Jihad should demand new tactics other than invading nations as the Jihadists are everywhere including in many friendly nations. Regime change, what kind of arms a government has, and spreading Democracy should not be reasons for going to war.

PAT & ILLEGALS
I live on the Eastern Shore of Virginia, that little finger south of Maryland bounded by the Atlantic in the East and the Chesapeaake in the west. Even if you have a doctors appointment you can wait two hours or more for attention because the clinic is filled with illegals. Same at the only hospital that we have. Virginia has 600,000 illegals and we have more than our share here. And there is NO industry here other than poultry and farming. Not all of these illegals work for giant corporations; they mostly work for individuals who cut grass, do cleanups and logging and are self employed. After a hurricane or Nor'easter the landfill is backed up with self employed with illegals dumping debris from the storms. It is a canard that the major corporations hire the bulk of these people. They work "off the books" for a guy who is doing the same, who probably gets his health care for his wife that works at a white collar job. It is a disaster that is overtaking America and it will turn the country into a socialist state and my grandchildren will be minority before they are forty years old. Last time I went to our local health care facility to keep an appointment that I had had for six months, I had to wait an additional two days. The clinic was filled to the doors with illegals, mostly women with a toddler, a child in a baby carrier (provided by the State of Virginia free) and a baby on the way. Bush Senior, Clinton and our current president do not give a tinkers damn for the people that put them there. Who the h*8l does one vote for. Someone once told me to get a politician to trust, keep throwing them up in the air and the one that doesn't come down can be trusted. I do believe it. Bush has destroyed the Republican Party and it will not recover in a generation.

Thanks andrews
for the 'duct tape'clarification.

By the way “globalization” is a market phenomenon. We can’t control ‘globalization’ more than we can control ‘global warming.’

The real question is what role is America going to play in the process; are we going to withdraw and let someone else write the blueprint of the global economy or, are we going to lead the process.

Are we going to expand or are we going to shrink?

Or in other terms; is the future world to look more like America or, more like Mexico?

Are we too American or, not enough?

"Intervention"
I'm truly mystified by Pat's attitude. He dislikes being labelled "isolationist", but what else can he be called? Every great nation in history, going back before Biblical times, has been engaged in world affairs, not only politically, but economically. In fact, world trade is the lynchpin of economic prosperity; to cut oneself off from the rest of the world (or most of it) and create an inbred hothouse of an economy is a prescription for economic decay and, eventually, disaster. The U.S. has long been engaged in economic "globalism", going back at least to Admiral Perry's contact with Japan. I say all this as a staunch conservative Republican, having so voted since my first vote (for Barry Goldwater) in 1964. Isolationism, which is, to my mind, what Pat advocates, has never led to freedom, prosperity and security for any nation, so far as I can tell.

andrews and tape
Ahh but some enterprising company has come out with a brand of duct tape named you guessed it duck tape.

And what happens to the dollar?
We are forced to finance this stupid war with no definition of victory, in Iraq. This war is costing and as I recall, the military is not a profitable enterprise for the taxpayer. Pity the poor veteran who comes home to our dilapidated VA hospitals for treatment. And what sort of help is in place for the exposure to our depleted uranium waste, which covers most of Iraq now?
Our currency is being inflated like the goodyear blimp and yet the flag waving yahoos want to kick butt in Iraq. Well unfortunately it would seem to take out one Radical Islamic target, we need to injure or kill about twenty other people, men women and children.
What is Victory in Iraq, anyhow?
Who can spell it out for me?
Is it the slick transfer of Iraqi Oil assets to Western Oil Corporations like Shell or Standard?
And what sort of control can we really offer over the future form of Government in Iraq?
I maintain that at least for the Christian Minority, times were much better under the Baathists, whom we have ruled to be bad guys.
Again it strikes me as absurd to wage war in Iraq, and yet allow illegal aliens to enter the US on our Southern Borders.
I wonder how many fifth column operatives have already taken up postion in our borders, posing as Manuel or Pedro?
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