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Friday, July 27, 2007
Oliver North :: Townhall.com Columnist
Suffering in Iran
by Oliver North
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San Diego, Calif. -- More than four decades ago, while I was a Naval Academy Midshipman visiting this delightful seaport city, one of my summer reading texts was "Sufferings in Africa." Originally published in 1817 by Capt. James Riley, the book is said to have influenced young Abraham Lincoln profoundly to the necessity for abolishing slavery. The tome ought to be required reading for U.S. politicians and diplomats who insist that meeting and talking with Iranian officials -- as they did this week in Baghdad -- can be a productive endeavor.

Without giving away too much, Riley's account of what he endured nearly two centuries ago as a shipwrecked American merchant sea captain, enslaved by "Mohammedan Arabs" -- as he called his captors -- is still relevant today. His observations are particularly germane to how we deal with modern radical Islamists, the prospect of a nuclear Jihad being waged against us and the fate of westerners in their hands.

Riley's perspective is that of a devout, articulate Christian who suffered terribly in the clutches of men who "performed all the rituals of their religion," but who "set no bounds to their anger and resentment, and regard no law but that of superior force." It's a lesson that's been missed by those who believe we can find common ground by talking with the theocrats running Iran.

Riley would not be surprised at the lack of progress in our discussions with the Iranian regime. The teacups barely had been picked up after this week's Green Zone gab fest between U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker and Iranian Ambassador Hassan Kazemi Qomi before Iran's President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, appeared before the television cameras to declare that Iran's quest for nuclear weapons would continue unabated.

"Iran will never abandon its peaceful (nuclear) work," Reuters quoted Mr. Ahmadinejad saying the day after the Pelosi/Reid-inspired talks between the United States and Iran and a day before U.N. nuclear inspectors were due to arrive in Iran. While some might consider this indicative of Iranian intransigence, our State Department deemed the statement irrelevant because the talks focused on "other matters."

It turns out that the "other matters" for the talks were neither Iranian human rights abuses nor the fate of four American hostages now being held by Iran. If we must "talk," both of these issues should have been on the agenda -- along with the race to acquire nuclear bombs. But these matters apparently are deemed irrelevant to those who believe that simply sitting down at a table for a chat is indicative of progress.

Instead, we are told, this week's "discussion" was a follow-up to the May 28 meeting in which the parties were supposed to find common ground for cooperation on security in Iraq. According to our State Department's news release, the purpose of the Baghdad talks is for both sides to find a way to create "a secure, stable, democratic, federal Iraq, in control of its own security, at peace with its neighbors." Unfortunately, in a moment of undiplomatic candor, Ambassador Crocker let it slip that Iranian meddling in Iraq has increased since the most recent soiree. "The fact is," said the ambassador, "that over the roughly two months since our last meetings, we have actually seen militia-related activity that can be attributed to Iranian support go up and not down."

With that kind of "progress," by the time we have the next round of talks with Tehran, their nuclear weapons program will be running full bore, Islamic courts will be sentencing dozens of violators of Shariah law to be stoned to death, and the four American citizens being held hostage by Tehran may well be dead.

Ever since the first drafts of the so-called Baker-Hamilton Report were leaked last year, we have been told by the potentates of the media and the global left that diplomacy is the answer to all our concerns: for Iraq, for Iranian nuclear ambitions, for just about all that ails us. Talking is the magic potion. It's become a panacea. Diplomacy may be an effective tool when dealing with reasonable people. But that's not the case with Tehran. No matter what the Fourth Estate and the liberal pols say, there are no reasonable people in power in Persia.

But hope in "talks" springs eternal in the minds of the media elites and ambitious politicians. This week, an editorial in the Los Angeles Times lauded British Prime Minister Gordon Brown for banning the use of the term "war on terror." The Times editorial noted that a recent public opinion poll by the Pew Global Attitudes Project found that among Lebanese Muslims "only" 34 percent believe "that suicide bombings against civilians (are) sometimes or often justified." Apparently that's down from 74 percent a few years ago. The Times described this as a hopeful trend.

And this week during a bizarre candidate debate in Charleston, S.C., Sen. Barack Obama was asked via the Internet whether he would be willing to set aside all preconditions and meet during the first year of his presidency with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea.

"I would," he replied.

Note to Sen. Obama and the editors of the L.A. Times: Read "Sufferings in Africa" -- and then go do something about four modern American hostages who are suffering in Iran.

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About The Author

Oliver North is the founder and honorary chairman of Freedom Alliance and author of The Assassins .

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diplomacy
seems to have worked on north korea but i guess ollie missed that.

Truman Was wrong...
in stating that small fires should be put out before they get bigger and that nations would fall one by one (the original domino theory).

We should never fight wars of choice and take on the people who propose our demise until we are severly damaged in a massive attack.

There is some error in the thinking of AQ in Iraq. They, according to the left, are wasting their people, resources and time fighting in Irag. If the U.S. and our allies withdraw from Iraq they will acheive no benifit. There will be no further dominos to fall.

Fortunatly Bush will not be around to take the heat when no other countries are attacked or fall to the religion of peace.

It is clear that the recruiting poster of American forces fighting in Iraq should be replaced by the recruiting poster of Americans withdrawing from Iraq. Bushs policy of confronting people should clearly be replaced by capitulation.

Someone once said "He who defends everything, defends nothing". We can not defend our land boarders and our ocean boarders. I recommend the mountains surrounding Denver. Make them fight up hill and in the snow.

Mohammedan Arabs
FYI: Iranians are Persians, Saudis are Arabs, and the Muslims who captured Cpt. Riley were from Northern Africa.

I track the Saudi-supported expansion of militant, extremist Wahhabi Islam.
http://wahaudi.blogspot.com

White House Withdrawl From Iraq Plan?

Gates claim the White House is working on a withdrawl plan. Do you think this is true?

NPR-Defense Secretary Robert Gates wrote to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton that a top Pentagon official did not intend to impugn her patriotism by suggesting her questions about U.S. planning in Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.

…..The letter also contains the most explicit admission to date that the Pentagon is in fact planning for the eventual withdrawal of U.S. forces, with Gates telling Clinton: “You may rest assured that such planning is indeed taking place with my active involvement…..”

Late Thursday, lawmakers on the Senate Armed Services Committee were told they would get the briefing Clinton had been seeking for months on the issue of troop withdrawal.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/withdrawl-from-iraq-plan

Ollie
"Riley's perspective is that of a devout, articulate Christian who suffered terribly in the clutches of men who "performed all the rituals of their religion," but who "set no bounds to their anger and resentment, and regard no law but that of superior force."

Ollie you never did consider perspective. When Riley wrote that the good Christians of the entire US, not just those in the corrupt and decadent South, were treating their black slaves how?

To compare then to now is absurd and alarmist. Oh, I forgot to add, as always, Ollie is just another convicted felon who got off on a legal technicality with the help of the ACLU by the way

Wishfull thinking
Wishfull thinking is like a pipe dream - by that I mean a pipe full of hashish - it may be pleasant while one is dreaming, but the nightmare of real life continues. Mr. North is fully aware about the Islamist reality, which most people would rather ignore, because reality is unconfortable. "Peace in our lifetime", said Mr. Chamberlaine, after meeting with Adolph Hitler, who must have rolled over, laughing at how he had deceived the big idiot. Muhammad the prophet said it is quite right to make a peaceful agreement with the enemy, just to recoup your strength and get back to him with stronger force. Iranians, Arabs, Indonesians and what-not may be of different races and languages, but they do have one thing in common: Islam. Islamist thought is just one, no matter what your race may be. Mr North you are absolutely correct. Good for you, sir.

Futility will end for most when
reality sets in for the other citizens who are in denial about these raving maniacs who are murdering innocent people round the world. Why have you not heard of the caliphate Amahdinejad has planned for the Middle East and the destruction of western civilisation.

Citizens of the west...if you are not a muslim...then you are an infidel! ALL INFIDELS will be killed and the world will be ruled with Shiria Law by mullahs until Amahdinejad's Imam arrives for the caliphate. Got it?

ben Haggai
rubbish are you doing that pipe?

FromTheTop1
STOP this cowering in fear! Good grief I have never heard such nonsense in my life. What part of third world don't you understand? We are not talking powers here. We are talking countries in which a large part of their populations can barely read let alone present a viable threat to us. The fact that the extreme conservatives have not dealt effectively with foreign policy and placed us at greater threat is sad but recoverable. GO COWER if you must but please at least try not not scare the children,...

I never did think that conservatives were quivering fear mongers but I guess I was wrong....

Big Arch
That was my point it was the whole country not just the Corrupt and decadent South. Ahh yes "My folks in the decadent South had blacks folks that stayed with them for their entire lives. They were called part of the family." if they were owned slaves they had no choice and they were still slaves. You want to defend that? And for every "nice tale" there are at least equal tales of horror.

The fascist speaks
"The tome ought to be required reading for U.S. politicians and diplomats who insist that meeting and talking with Iranian officials -- as they did this week in Baghdad -- can be a productive endeavor."

Says the man who helped orchestrate the sale of arms to Iran to fund the overthrow of a democratic socialist government in Nicaragua.

Big Arch
"I seem to remember my Mothers birthday in 2001. It was on Sept 11th. Guess those nice mohammed arabs were just out for a morning fly bye when some terrible conservative made them fly those ole planes into a coupla buildings. Is that your take on that morning?"

Nope my take was they got lucky after all these years. We abandoned Afghanistan to the extremists and let it fester. That was an R and a D oversight. Clinton was "distracted" because the R's were maintaining their interest in sex rather than the safety of the nation. Bush was in power over 8 months and all he did was downgrade counterterrorism as a priority. Did that cause it? Nope but it helped the terrorists.

"You sir will be among those blameing GWB for the next attack when it happens and will have forgotten all the nice things you libs have been saying about the nice arab boys."

Actually I give GW credit for no attacks he has been doing exactly what the terrorists want so why should they attack us. But now that he is leaving look out.


"Get your head out of the sand and maybe another darker place and see the world for what it is. As for being scared..This son of the South will meet you any place and any time. I ain't cowering from dumocrats or arabs."

Actually you are cowering. You are scared and paint a group of terrorists and criminals as warriors - get a grip..... You want to meet me? Sure happy to. You going to assualt me LOL?

Hour of Decision
Now that the enemy knows exactly when to attack with all of their assets (Two to three weeks before the Generals report to Congress) it seems a given that “cut and run” will win the day. A large US casualty count even though our Army will win each and every encounter (See Tet ‘68) will sicken the most battle hardened and the desertion from “stay the course” will turn into a stampede.
With our troops redeployed out side of Iraq it shouldn’t take the Iranians more than six to eight hours to turn Iraq into a land locked country because there will simply be nothing to stop them.
Even a rumor of the capture of Basra will send oil prices skyrocketing and when the reality sets in energy dependent US industry will begin to close up shop.
During the advance on Basra the US military will still have more than adequate air and navel assets to stop the advance but a decision will have to be made. Do we allow the Iranians to take Basra and upset world markets or do we stop them in their tracks?
Remember if we decide to stop them it means war against Iran. Thank goodness President Bush will still be in the White House.

Big Arch
"My folks did not own slaves. They had blacks that lived their entire lives on our farms. We worked with them and laughed with them and cryed with them. We attended graduations and church together. We ate out of the same gardens and out of the same pots. Southern folks treated most blacks with respect. However, the southern blacks that migrated north in the 50s and 60s came home in the 70s and 80s because they found out the northern people did not treat them as well as the southern folks did."

Yup those good old segragation days were wonderful times. get real I traveled and lived in the South in those good old days LMAO

Hellernot
"Now that the enemy knows exactly when to attack with all of their assets (Two to three weeks before the Generals report to Congress) it seems a given that “cut and run” will win the day. A large US casualty count even though our Army will win each and every encounter (See Tet ‘68) will sicken the most battle hardened and the desertion from “stay the course” will turn into a stampede."

Our troops deserve far better than your silly buzz words. Cut and run, stay the course both are insults to the troops. Iraq requires subtlety not your Buzz words. FYI TET was an enemy success because the administration's lies were exposed to the people. Again the troops were let down by the administration not the people or congress

Hellernot
"Remember if we decide to stop them it means war against Iran. Thank goodness President Bush will still be in the White House."

Thank goodness! I guess you are not in the military.

LTC
True enough but I used the "buzz words" for brevity they tend to sort things out without any long winded political positioning. The point remains valid. I get the feeling you would let Basra fall?
You twisted the word "win" as far as Tet is concerned--I was clearly referring to the military as I'm sure you understood.
MACV J-2 CICV July 70-July 71.
You?

When are we going to fight?
In WWII, we fought the Germans and the Japs. We didn't try to find Hitler and Hirohito and capture them. We should do the same thing today in Iraq or any other nation that harbors those who threaten and wage war against us.

But we are building water works, roads, bridges, schools and other such things in Iraq and look at the results. If we had spent that time and energy killing muslims, would the result be any better? How do we know? How many of our military would be alive today if we had fire bombed major cities in Iraq as we did in Germany?

Do we want to kill our enemies and win the war or not? And if we do, when are we going to start? And if we are not going to do that, then bring our military home so they won't be used as training on how to set IED's.

Here is news: the MUSLIMS have declared holy war on us. They are the enemy. Kill MUSLIMS until they have neither the capacity or the will to wage war against us. We can start by destroying Bagdad. If we are not going to wage war, then we should surrender and not sacrifice our military people like we are doing now.

Bush will not wage war. The democrats want to surrender. It looks like the average American is going to have to fight these muslims in the streets in front of our homes since neither political party will protect and defend this nation. But if the liberals have their way and destroy the Second Amendment, we'll have to fight them with broom sticks and hoe handles!

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Hellernot
LTC
USAF Korat late 67 to early 69

No I would not let Basra fall but that does not mean all out war with Iran either. No one I know wants to make the same mistake made when we abandoned Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is why cut and run is not even close as even a concept just as "stay the course" means sit here and die while we try to think of something

Hellernot
LTC retired

Trying to think of something
I'm not sure what you're saying. Take another look at the map. The Iranian army could all fall down and take Basra anyway cutting that ports shipping entirely. Emboldened by our redeployment they would be fools if they didnt take it. I would and then dare you stop me.
Clearly we could stop it--so are you saying that you would stop them and then do nothing?
What about this blowback you were talking about?
Doesnt the surge mean we thought of something? If not what would satisfy you that we thought of something?
OK stop with the buzz words already.

These have been great posts
Why, one might ask?

Because they perfectly illustrate that the "progressive" mindset on the War in Iraq, as delineated by Hal Donahue, and the "paleoconservative" mindset, as described by Hal0, have become one and the same.

And even more illuminatingly, they illustrate that the Progressive" & "Paleoconservative" mindset is EXACTLY that of the jihadists!

Hellernot
It is about resolve. Ever since Bush 1 screwed the shities we have been shall we say less than loved by them. But Iran will only do what it can get away with plain and simple. Bush regime has zero credibility with anyone based on performance that is the basic risk I see because Bush is weak he may overreact or the Iranians et. al. will overestimate his wealness either is dangerous

religiouslib writes:"diplomacy....
.....seems to have worked on north korea but i guess ollie missed that."
--------------------------------------------------
I have said it before and I'll say it again -- Diplomacy worked with North Korea (it presently appears)BECAUSE the U.S. DID NOT go it alone with bi-lateral talks. The U.S. had six (6) party talks and some of those six carry BIG STICKS and are also bordering North Korea. Without those BIG STICKS & those particular countries, the talks would not have worked. If we are to talk with Iran, then we MUST have some OTHER BIG STICKS to talk along with us. IMHO one of those big sticks should be China and others could possibly be Russia, Australia & India. If we (the U.S.) decide to go it alone in these talks, then we will never come out on top. We will be put in a position of being blamed for anything and everything that might, could, does go wrong. DIPLOMACY WITHOUT CREDIBIL BACKING OF (USABLE) FORCE IS NOT TRUE DIPLOMACY!
********Foggy bottom sucks hind teat!**********
TBC :>|

Hal Donahue writes:....
..."To compare then to now is absurd and alarmist."
--------------------------------------------------
Hal, IMHO the comparison is valid because, while we (the U.S.) have changed, they (the Muslims) HAVE NOT.
TBC :>)
BTW, How are you fairing? Are you staying in the DC area or commuting?

The Black Cherokee
Good news! My recovery has been near miraclous according to Doctor. It has been a rather rough four or six months but looks like life can return to a bit of normalacy. Thank you for your concern. I commute now was staying in hospital then hotel

Peace with China
Was predicated on China’s deep seated animosity and rivalry towards the Soviet Union, it was a case of “the enemy or my enemy is my friend.” It was also grounded on China’s ambition to take the seat occupied by Taiwan.

In other words there was a common interest and the US was in control of something to offer.

Could you please enlighten us about how your example applies to the current conditions?

From here it looks as if your example only exemplifies your ignorance and lack of discernment. So please clarify.

Every negotiation of the cold war was based in everyone’s acceptance of the “mutually assured destruction” paradigm. The choices were between nuclear annihilation and, negotiations. Basically nuclear weapons spoke by themselves against their usage.

Does that applies to people that believe in the suicide vest?

After all, the Brits were defeated by Gandhi – the poster boy for peaceful action-, but religious fanatics have no problem stabbing him to death. Remember?

In any case, there won’t be any negotiated peace until Iran agrees with us on some sort of rule set that reflects their vital interest.

Peace in the real world, unlike the coffee shops frequented by Socialists, resembles more the tenuous cease fire between rival Sicilian crime families.


The Black Cherokee
"Hal, IMHO the comparison is valid because, while we (the U.S.) have changed, they (the Muslims) HAVE NOT."

Ah yes they have. You must know your enemy to defeat them that is how we got in this mess underestimating our enemy

Nicaragua
Do you know that Soviet long range TU-95 spy planes were flying from Havana to provide intelligence for the "independent" government of Nicaragua?

Do you know that Castro, in complicity with Noriega, trained and infiltrated over 10,000 South American radicals into Nicaragua?

Do you know that the Sandinista leadership, lived, studied, and received training in the USSR and Cuba?

Do you know that the "Tri-Continental International" was an organization of radicals who resigned all national alliances for the destruction of "Yankee Imperialism?"

Do you know the Sandinistas were members?

Do you know the principal opponents to the Sandinistas were dirt poor black Caribs Garyfuna farmers who refuse to relinquish their lifestyle?

Do you know at the time Castro had military operating as "advisors" paid by the Soviet Union in Guatemala, El Salvador, Western Sahara, Congo, Angola, Rhodesia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Viet Nam?

There is an elected government in Nicaragua, precisely, because totalitarianism was defeated.

Thanks in part to Ollie North.

Overestimated Resolve
It isn’t his weakness that makes him dangerous to Iran. It’s because he wants to see this war through and has little or no concern for the public opinion polls. I don’t think the Iranians understand this or will take the time to figure it out. They believe as they always have and have proven in so many other instances that a withdrawal is a sign of weakness, that the US has no further stomach for this war and Basra is rightfully theirs.
There is no doubt in my mind that they will take Basra, that is their resolve and the huge buildup of the Turkish army in and on the Northern border can only mean one thing although I’m not sure we care at all about the Kurds and will allow the Turks to do whatever they wish.
On the other hand we must prevent the loss of Basra---the perceived and actual economic losses could cause nothing but problems here at home, many of them severe.

Give me convenience or give them death
"There is an elected government in Nicaragua, precisely, because totalitarianism was defeated."

You mean Somoza. The first democratic elections were in 1984. The Sandinistas won and established a national constitution. They lost the elections of 1990, and in keeping with their democratic principles gave up power to the winning party.

North and company on the other hand, could not handle the idea of democratically elected socialists, and helped fund a military overthrow.

If any country in the world didn't like the results of the 2004 elections, would it have been acceptable for them to fund a military overthrow of the Republican Party?

As usual anti socialists would rather install a military corporatist dictatorships than live in a world in which people democratically choose a different economic structure than the tyranny of corporatism.

Hellernot
"It isn’t his weakness that makes him dangerous to Iran. It’s because he wants to see this war through and has little or no concern for the public opinion polls."

That is a lie. If it was the truth Bush would have increased the size of the military and would have enough troops to hold Iraq and defend the country. Instead our military readiness is falling dangerously and the vast majority of our combat forces are committed to Iraq going, coming or there

how to win in iraq
"They believe as they always have and have proven in so many other instances that a withdrawal is a sign of weakness, that the US has no further stomach for this war and Basra is rightfully theirs."

Since when do we choose how to fight war based on the beliefs of others.

That is insane tactics. One understands the thinking of ones enemy not to conform to it, but to use it against him.

Lets pull out, conserve our energy and when they think they have won, strike again.

If victory is objective, then wining is not a function of your enemy believing he has lost, wining is a function of meeting objectives irrespective of what your enemy thinks.

The current war is already lost if our objective is making our enemies think they have lost. It is doubly lost because our enemy understands our vulnerability. Our enemy has now has had five long years of using us to train our to fight in the future. Because we fight on his turf, with little shared cultural or language, we are incapable of knowing our enemies intentions and while he, is western educated and fluent in English, knows our hears and tests us in manners of his choosing.

If we do not can not invest in learning our enemies language and culture as well as our enemy learns ours. Then we must pull out so that he can not strike us at will, triggering us to respond.

Instead we need to use our tactical advantage of our ability to speedily strikes into the heart of our enemies and disappear or trigger our enemies to respond in a time a place of our choosing, and then retreat far from were he lives.

To do that, we must train many of our own to live as informants in their society, living by their rules, knowing their language, and practicing their religion and supporting the institutions which will grow into liberal democratic movements.

Can Someone explain to me
How the Contras needed weapons while the Sandinistas never seem to have a shortage of war material?

Who was supplying all this AK-47?

Who manufactured all these "Kalashnikovs?"

Somoza was not a member of a totalitarian interntional conspirancy, he was a common latin-American authoritarian 'caudillo' like Porfirio Diaz or, Rafael Leonidas Trujillo.

Latins just love a strong man!

Is relatively easy to get rid of those types. After all, there is still usually a right to bear arms and a semi-independent mass media.

To get rid of a Socialist dictatorship like Castro, Kim Yon Il, or Saddam Hussein your only hope is for an American invasion.

Didn't Hugo Chavez took over that irritating TV station recently? I wonder what's his plan?

American Democrats:

Betraying America's friends since 1959.

Getting ready to do it again.

"Lie" isnt that a little harsh?
You forget don't you that this is a volunteer army and is as big as there are volunteer's or are you proposing that he should have started a draft?
Haven't you noticed we are holding and defending the country and surging on top of that?
Quite a busy place.
Notice that I dont use words like "lie" in deference to your service, I think you've earned that and I KNOW I have.
(For those interested Korat was in Thailand, a long way from Phu Bai)

The power of the evil Corporation
Is the only balancing power stopping the State from becoming medieval on your A**SS

PEEPEL!!! PEEPEL!!!!
Is there anything more important than closing our borders, to prevent criminals, terrorists, nuclear bombs getting through?

IF SO, WHY DON'T THE MEDIA SHOUT ABOUT THAT EVERY DAY, 24/7....?????

thinker
do you know how heavy a nuclear bomb is?

There is only one country right now who is even close to figuring gout how to make a nuclear weapon small enough to smuggle, and that it the US.

If terrorist want a nuke, they would.... Well I'm not going to post how to do it.

But let me make this perfectly clear... Securing the boarders makes us caged not our enemies. Our enemies will simple find another way.

You can't wall off the world, you can only wall your self in.

I'm not sure Uber
I tried to read it several times and I think there may be something there. Rewrite it please.
My point is this: The loss of Basra would unwind world financial markets. To what extent may be unknown but we can not take that chance under any circumstances.
Spent a little time in Contingency planning a few lifetimes ago and I learned how very important it is to keep these kinds of things secret at least until after the mission and sometimes even then.
Anyone that has a functioning brain knows that you never tell your enemy what you’re going to do nor when you’re going to do it. I think letting out this whole “report to Congress” thing is treasonous and will cost us soldier’s lives. And now we see where Mrs. Bill Clinton wants to let the enemy know how we are going to retreat right down to which unit is going to move where and when. I truly hope this isn't true!

Hellernot
"You forget don't you that this is a volunteer army and is as big as there are volunteer's or are you proposing that he should have started a draft?"

We need a larger Army if he was serious - I don't care how he gets it.


"Haven't you noticed we are holding and defending the country and surging on top of that?
Quite a busy place."

Actually no and according to Petraus we are not either it is a tactical movement only. He acknowledges we cannot win by military means alone


"Notice that I dont use words like "lie" in deference to your service, I think you've earned that and I KNOW I have.
(For those interested Korat was in Thailand, a long way from Phu Bai)"

Yup i saw it out the window on occasion ;>)

I apoligise. I did not want to call you a liar but the statement that Bush et al are trying to sell is a lie. If Bush gave a damn he could win he is trying for the "free lunch" I am now seeing kids getting wounded on their third tours they are basket cases and worse their families are melting down while the presiden says shop ....

winning in Iraq
How many people on the right have actually read "The Ugly American."

If you read that book, you will understand most of what I tried to say.

1. The know your enemies culture and language. Infiltrate and live with him.

2. Don't judge victory by whether you believe your enemy believes he is has lost. 1. He could be lying and be using your ego to strike at your heart or he could, as our present enemy, believe that victory is living to fight another day, i.e. be ideologically conditions against the idea of defeat.

3. Always know what your opponent will do before he does.

4. Never let your opponent test your capabilities.

5. Use your opponents strengths against him.

6. Fight on your distance.

7. Control the tempo

We are the bigger stronger opponent, so why are we in fighting. Why do we let our opponent test us on their terms. I thought we are fighting a war, not organizing a terrorist training camp. Why do we allow our opponent to attack us at their will and at the time of their choosing. Why don't we dedicate ourselves to know our enemy as intimately as our enemy knows us.

i.e. our enemy is western educated and fluent in English and a wide variety other languages. He is a doctor, and engineer, a computer programmer, an economist... He knows our very thought's our aspirations. He knows what we will do before we do.

Good enough--I accept.
Please expand some on the "free lunch"--really I'm not sure what that means. If your saying he is insincere well that's one thing.(I think if he is anything it's sincere)and if you mean that somehow he personally profits by this then thats something else entirely and I would like to know how.
My bigger concern (like yours) is the military. More from the standpoint of tactics and where and when we must make a stand. Basra is an example of this but I'm sure there are others. This must be planned for now particularly since the Congress may stop the funding at any minute.
Far too many people are so erratic in their post war thinking that it is nothing but extremely dangerous to our military and our country.

Uber
Much better---well said!

Hellernot
Free lunch: Bush took existing forces, funded the war thru a reduction in military services, contained costs by refusing to acknowledge increased requirements for wounded etc and then took tax cuts funding the war thru loans coming due after he left office. He is comsuming the military, national resources etc with no replacement or maintenance... How many times can you keep sending the same soldiers to war over and over. They are breaking i see it nearly everyday meanwhile Bush carries on with no replacement for personnel equipment etc

Hellernot
"My bigger concern (like yours) is the military. More from the standpoint of tactics and where and when we must make a stand. Basra is an example of this but I'm sure there are others."

Those are military decisions and I hope they are doing it.

"This must be planned for now particularly since the Congress may stop the funding at any minute."

No one in Congress wants an immediate withdrawal all I hear is a responsible withdrawal or repositioning. Didn't Hillary ask for such a thing to make certain that one was being developed?

ChairmanMao, on the nail
The only democratic elections the Sandinistas ever won were POST-Reagan, certainly not in 1984.

As you stated, Latinos "love strongment in control"; basically, it was swapped from Somoza to Ortega brothers.

Also, I am not surprised that Pitchfrack completely missed the point that Iran's (unlike Israel's and India's) nuclear program is NOT HOMEGROWN, but entirely purchased from mohajir thief/dealer A.Q. Khan (FYI, Pakistan "developped" its program by stealing centrifuge designs and parts from Europe and US and weapon designs from....Red China)! You can easily guess PART OF why Khan has been protected after his network was exposed--Musharraf is also a mohajir (unfortunately, unlike Musharraf, there is no guarantee that a Punjabi general taking over would bump-off Khan).

Hal---I wonder
She asked to see the plan. As you know contingency planning is ongoing. We had plans to get out before we went in--same as any business acquisition. It was probably only partly true when she was told that they are working on it.True from the standpoint that they now must consider things such as Basra and continue to change with the situation but not totally forthcoming in that there is a plan.
I think that the military is petrified that she would find a way to compromise the plan. Leaking specifics to the press would go a long way toward Mollifying the get out now crowd. This is the same tactic used with the all nighter. She is after all---all politics---all the time.

Hellernot
" As you know contingency planning is ongoing. We had plans to get out before we went in--same as any business acquisition. It was probably only partly true when she was told that they are working on it."

I hope it is but they were not allowed to plan for occupation so I am not certain that is true but I am certain the planners discuss and work on it quietly

"Leaking specifics to the press would go a long way toward Mollifying the get out now crowd."

Actually not true it would just wind them up. When I was there we assumed with few exceptions that it was compromised when it went out the door


Hillary is a politician and her job is politics if you do not think this is the case then you are niave. But she does want what is best for all and I think had shown that

SFASU7392
"Nothing like telling the enemy what your plans are. Those brilliant military minds in the Dumbbuttcrap Party are sure the enemy won't react violently when we leave. They will just quit fighting, sit down sing an Islamic version of Kumbaya and make peace."

OK what democrats? No member of Congress I know believes that. Most I know want to kill terrorists not train them like Bush is doing

"Responsible withdrawal or repositioning are two bit ways of saying cutting and running and raising a white flag and surrendering"

In suspect Nepolean and Hitler said much the same thing when they were in Russia. both acceptable military tactics used to win wars

SFASU7392
Both failed to withdraw or reposition when their generals urged them too they knew better they got crushed BECAUSE they stayed the course

The War on Terror is what? Bush isn't even using it. We are hunting down and destroying terrorists as always nothing new there. Iraq has nothing to do with terrorists except to train and recruit them. I told you why we have not been attacked - Bush is doing everything they want


The end of Limited Warfare
What I find disconcerting about the Iraq situation is that the Democrats, while pretending to be 'progressive,' 'cutting edge,' 'enlighten.' are actually showing an amazingly backward understading of the current conflict.

They continuosly mentions Viet Nam. Is like they are fighting the Cold War all over again.

The Cold War was characterized by conflicts that were necessarily limited because an all out war against the Soviet Union was impossible because would have resulted in Nuclear Mutually Assured Destruction.

The present Iraq war is not a limited war. The enemy has nothing to gain from showing restraint or, limiting the tactics, weapons or, theatre of operations.

The good old Political Wars the Democrats dream about remain the privilege only of great powers who would in this world seldomly engage in them.

The war in Iraq is more akin to what we have seen in Somalia, Bosnia, Sudan, Rwanda, Liberia, Cote D'Ivoir, Angola, Nigeria, Senegal, Ethiopia,Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, etc.

Wars of irregular troops seeking legitimacy, because so often legitimacy often rest on owning the weapons.

This raises the question: How long before one of these conflicts becomes nuclear?

What would happen to our life the day that one of these Sourthern World maniacs control most of the oil?

Or disrupt the oil supply.

What would happen to Europe, Japan, Australia?

Or better still. To pose the question in terms even someone still obssessed with the Cold War can understand:

Can you imagine the Cuban Missile Crisis without the Soviets to restrain Castro from firing the missiles?


Iran, Syria and Turkey
Waiting on the Democrats before moving in.

Reid, Clinton and Pelosi, making sure 3,000 American lives result in a weaker America.

Oh that's right; these are the same folks that gave away the Panama Canal Zone.

The American Public going to the mall and buying Duct tape.

I must confess, the GOP can't seem to be able to explain the obvious.

Mark Twain says - - -
This was published as a Letter to the Editor of a newspaper on Oct 16, 2002, and by hindsight, I still think it would have been the best way to do it.

Oil Wells

President Bush could solve the whole Mid-East/Moslem/Arab problem in a moment, with the stroke of a pen, without loss of a single life. Give the order to drill 100 oil wells off the coast of Florida, 100 off the coast of California, and 1,000 in that worthless wasteland called ANWAR.

The Arabs know that without oil exports they will have only sand to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That part of the world lives on the oil they sell. Have you ever seen a Saudi car, an Iraqi TV, an Iranian computer, or have you heard of any product, or any comment or thought of value that ever came from that part of the world?

In “Innocents Abroad” written by Mark Twain 150 years ago, he wrote, “How they hate a Christian in Damascus!” He chronicled the hatred, the filth, the inhuman nature of “those” people, and I have heard of nothing that has changed in the years since.

So don’t think this all started because of the Jews and Israel, it’s been the Moslem/Arab way of life for a thousand years. When we drill for our own oil, maybe they will stop their inherent hatred and stupidity.

Liberals,
Do not attempt to try to speak for the troops. What a joke. The vast majority of them depise liberals and most liberals despise them.

SFASU7392
"GWB can't really wage the War on Terror, because Dumbbuttcraps think that it is the "Patriotic Duty" to reveal everything we are doing to the NYT."

BS It did not stop any other administration but Carter's, who I think was the worst president ever until this guy. I spent a bit of time fighting them so I am not pulling this out of my nether regions...


CT
"Liberals, Do not attempt to try to speak for the troops. What a joke. The vast majority of them depise liberals and most liberals despise them."

Not true at all CT. Especially as you describe liberals - that definition includes most GI's LOL. And liberals right now are the ONLY group standing up for the troops.

jim
You sound like a sad poor bigot

"Liberals" Not Speak For Troops
No, Hal Donohue, you "liberals" are not speaking for the troops. CT in his 6:47 PM post has it right: you are despised.

Hal Donahue writes:"..Korat was in Thail
land ...."
Wasn't that the place from which many tactical air missions were flown; mostly trying (and mostly succeeding) to interdict the Ho Chi Mihn trail? Others too, I understand. So you were probably one of those who almost got me in late '68. {{ :>) }}

All, some advice!!! Read closely what Hal Donahue says and you will understand that he is not so much a liberal as much of what he writes makes sense. IMHO Hal is just totally disconcerted with GWB (whom he supports on occasion, but disembowels GWB's policies more often than not).

I seldom agree with him, but I truly respect his opines.
TBC :>|

Hal Donahue writes
Hal Donahue writes: Friday, July, 27, 2007 7:02 PM
jim
You sound like a sad poor bigot
-------------

What did I say to get that stupid remark, is there something I said that is not true?

You say you are a liberal just like Hitler, Stalin, that clown in China, Cuba, and other similar places, and I don't imagine any of them would be in favor of our troops.

Are you really as stupid as you write?

Phil Byler/SFASU7392/
Listen I must run but who you define as liberal encompasses most of the people and the troops. I am and remain moderate but I am sure that by your criteria I am a 'flaming" liberal. The troops are not stupid they know...

I must run but That said
To all: have a great weekend and be well!

There You Go Again, Hal Donohue
There you go again, Hal Donohue, saying falsely that the troops are liberals and that they know. Baloney. You run after a 10:31 PM post because what you say cannot be defended. By now, you should accept that I know you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to the U.S. military. And you are no moderate.

I try to understand
I guess if you spend a great deal of time with the wounded you might come away with a very slanted view of the war but that was true of Viet Nam, Korea and any other war. I'm really glad he does that.
I wish he didnt cherry pick quite so much and respond to the main questions but that's OK.
I do have to note one thing however. On the one hand he wants the talking heads in Washington to tell our Army what to do and when asked about specific redeployment he says that's up to the military.
He would explain this away trying to show the difference between strategy and tactics but I think it's a complete contadiction. Either we listen to the Generals or we'll never win another
fight.

I was having lunch the other day
I went on and on about all the problems we're having with our Carolina Panthers. Not only did I point out the problems but I also had all the answers for solving those problems. In retrospect it was a rant.
The folks at my table were polite, sometimes nodding their heads but mostly just eating.
I stopped for a moment to catch my breath and one of them said "Don't you think the coaches know more about it than you do"?
DON'T YOU SEE?
It's the same thing here. All Congress gets is the bits and pieces of information filtered through those with personal agendas and used to make these huge overriding conclusions that probably in the final analysis have nothing to do with what's really going on. If you're not in harms way--pay attention to those who are.

Hitler was on the Left
Scaramouche writes: Friday, July, 27, 2007 11:20 PM
jim
Hey moron, Hitler was a far right conservative.
--------------

There is no definition anywhere by anyone with a brain, that agrees with you. He and his government had complete control, the way Liberals want it.

Every German would laugh at your statement.

Freedom of Speech learned under Stalin
Big Dogg writes: Saturday, July, 28, 2007 7:19 PM

National Socialism may have borrowed the language of the left
-----------

No sense in talking to you, since you are on the left, you wouldn't admit that Stalin was a leftist.

Hitler used the Socialist talk, because he was one, you and yours of a few decades ago wanted to disassociate yourself from Hitler, so you talk about Hitler fighting Stalin, rather than the fact that the two were political brothers, and signed pacts to work together.

Try Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr, he says Nazi and Socialism are on the same side of the spectrum. Look at http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schlesinger-notrightleft.html,

where he says, among other things, “The Fascists, for example, were not conservative in any very meaningful sense.”

You also say,

“I disagree with you that leftist governments want to control their people - freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of sexuality, freedom of gender - these are all leftist concepts”

I am sure you learned freedom of speech, etc., under Stalin, the clown in Viet Nam, the one in Cuba, and on and on.
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