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Sunday, August 26, 2007
Nicole  Gelinas :: Townhall.com Columnist
An Inconvenient Solution
by Nicole Gelinas
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


In a short time, global warming has graduated from niche cause to accepted fact. Though skeptics may still grumble (or shout) that the science isn’t settled, they’ve lost the battle when President Bush agrees to “seriously consider” an international climate-change treaty; when media mogul Rupert Murdoch writes that “climate change poses clear, catastrophic threats”; when conservative standard-bearer National Review runs a cover article saying that “it’s no longer possible, scientifically or politically, to deny that human activities have very likely increased global temperatures”; when Ford CEO Alan Mulally tells the Detroit News that “temperature has increased . . . mainly because of the greenhouse gases keeping the heat in”; and when New York Times everyman columnist Tom Friedman exhorts us to “go green.” Al Gore—who, less than a decade ago, dropped his nearly career-spanning obsession with climate change, recognizing that no serious politician could make it the cornerstone of a presidential campaign—now has an Oscar for the global-warming documentary An Inconvenient Truth. Some 84 percent of Americans think that human beings are contributing to global warming, with 78 percent (and 60 percent of Republicans) saying that we should do something about it “right away,” according to an April New York Times/CBS News poll.

The political answer to all this anxiety has arrived. Prominent politicians—including first-tier Democratic and Republican presidential candidates—are embracing a national “cap and trade” program to cut greenhouse-gas emissions. Powerful corporate leaders are right behind them, and the few execs still on the sidelines privately say, as one put it, that national regulation of greenhouse gases—above all, carbon dioxide—“is now as certain as death and taxes.” The mechanics of greenhouse-gas regulation are complex. But one likely result is all too clear: it will exact a significant toll on the American economy.

Cap and trade enjoys support from many free marketeers and moderate politicians because it seems, at first glance, market-friendly. If the perceived problem is power plants’ and factories’ heating up the planet by spewing too much carbon dioxide and other such gases into the air, why not impose a cost on them—currently, there isn’t one—for those damaging emissions? Just as firms pay for the carbon (coal and natural gas) that they put into their operations, the argument goes, so they should pay for the carbon that comes out (carbon dioxide).

Here’s how the cap-and-trade system likely would work. Assume that the government starts by capping greenhouse gases in two energy-hungry sectors of the economy: electricity generation and heavy industry. (Europe, seeking to comply with Kyoto Protocol environmental targets, has taken this route in its two-and-a-half-year-old cap-and-trade program.) To avoid too much shock, the government sets a generous cap in the program’s first year. It asks every factory and power plant how many tons of greenhouse gases it released into the atmosphere during the previous year, and then makes the cumulative total—let’s put it at 4 billion tons—the initial cap. Each plant or factory can emit exactly the same tonnage that it did in the previous year.

But the government doesn’t just want to hold greenhouse gases steady; it wants to cut them by as much as half over the next half-century or so. So in five years, say the feds, the cap will go down by 5 percent overall, to 3.8 billion tons, and each company’s cap will decline by the same proportion. After another five years, the government will cut the cap again, and so on. Because the companies know that the cap will keep tightening, they’ll aim to make their operations more energy-efficient, or so the feds would hope.

But what if a factory can’t reduce its emissions? Maybe it was pretty efficient already, and its customer orders are up, to boot. That’s where the “trade” part of cap and trade comes in. Suppose that a power plant elsewhere does have room to cut energy waste—say, by replacing its 30-year-old generator with a cleaner model. Now that the power plant can produce the same total power with fewer emissions, it has extra greenhouse-gas permits and can—under the new regime—sell them to the humming factory, which needs to push past its own limit. What happens if all the firms in the country can’t cut pollution enough to stay below the cap? Cap and trade has an answer for that scenario, too. Halfway around the world, in Guangdong, China, Mei Xiang Air Conditioners coughs up 10 million tons of greenhouse gases each year, but a simple upgrade would get emissions down to 8 million tons. Now, the Chinese plant can sell those 2 million tons’ worth of emissions “savings” to its American counterparts for cold, hard cash—and use the money to pay for the upgrade.

Lawmakers have introduced nearly a half-dozen cap-and-trade bills in Congress this year, including one jointly sponsored by Senators John McCain, Barack Obama, and Joe Lieberman. Presidential candidates Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, and Rudy Giuliani have all expressed interest in the idea. “So much has happened so rapidly over the past 12 months,” says Véronique Bugnion, head of North American research for Point Carbon, a group that analyzes Europe’s carbon markets. And there’s a chance that legislation won’t even be necessary. This April, the Supreme Court ruled in Massachusetts v. EPA that the federal Environmental Protection Agency could regulate greenhouse-gas emissions as a pollutant, likely allowing the White House, should it someday wish, to implement a cap-and-trade program on its own.

Individual states aren’t waiting. California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger wants the state to slash emissions to 1990 levels by 2020, and the California legislature has passed a law to use “market mechanisms,” like cap and trade, to start cutting emissions by 2012. Five western states, and one Canadian province, say that they’ll join California’s effort. On the opposite coast, New York governor Eliot Spitzer is proceeding with a ten-state cap-and-trade plan, announced by his predecessor George Pataki, that would decrease emissions by 10 percent over ten years, starting in 2009.

Corporations signing on in support of a national carbon cap-and-trade program read like the Fortune 500 list, from General Electric, which sells clean-energy technology, to PepsiCo. Some of the nation’s largest electricity generators, including American Electric Power, North Carolina’s Duke Energy, and Pacific Gas and Electric, have formally offered support. On the energy-voracious industrial side, there are General Motors, DuPont, Alcoa, Caterpillar, and Deere. Oil firms BP, ConocoPhillips, and Shell have also given thumbs-up.

Pragmatism partly explains the corporate support. Some power-industry firms see that public and political opinion is changing, and they know that the faster they sign on to proposed regulation, the more opportunities they’ll have to shape it so that it’s less harmful to them. For example, as in Europe, American power-company execs would like to see a generous initial cap and want to make sure that they can pass on to customers the cost of buying emissions allowances on the trading market.

Many corporate leaders also think that the alternative to cap and trade is a snarl of even costlier litigation, as trial lawyers and state attorneys general try to convince juries that greenhouse-gas-spewing companies unleashed natural disasters like Hurricane Katrina. A suit filed last year by California’s then–attorney general, Bill Lockyer, against Detroit automakers, alleging that they’re worsening global warming on the West Coast, is a preview. “The sooner we have a price on carbon, the better,” says Duke Energy spokesman Thomas Williams.

Executives and politicians certainly prefer a cap-and-trade program to a carbon tax, which is another policy option. With a tax, power companies and industrial energy consumers would suddenly face a huge, nonnegotiable cost to doing business. Under cap and trade, by contrast, a plant operator unable to spend tens of millions of dollars to upgrade his plant might find it cheaper to buy carbon credits from a company that can slash emissions more readily. As for the pols, proposing a cap-and-trade program, which most people won’t even understand, doesn’t carry the same electoral risk as suggesting a new tax.

Many investment banks also favor a national cap-and-trade program, at least informally, anticipating the opportunity to trade a whole new asset class on the financial markets—assets worth from $50 billion to $300 billion annually, depending on economists’ estimates of the eventual price per ton of emitting carbon. Lehman Brothers has joined American Electric Power and other companies in a voluntary pilot effort, the Chicago Climate Exchange, to cap and trade carbon in the United States. A competitor, the New York Mercantile Exchange, soon will offer standardized carbon-emissions contracts, too. And many other companies, ranging from niche start-ups to GE, support the idea, recognizing the potential for investing in emissions-credits projects in the Third World. Attend a meeting with the i-banking and power-industry players looking at this emerging market, and you’ll see that all of them think mandatory cap and trade all but a done deal. They’re already planning financial and investment products based on it for five to ten years down the road.

Soothing economic reports make support for cap and trade all the easier. The United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, for example, says that the world could reduce future greenhouse-gas emissions without suffering much economically. Costs, it believes, would equal at most a tenth of a percentage point of global annual growth. The Energy Information Administration at the U.S. Department of Energy estimates that cutting greenhouse-gas growth less aggressively would eat up under half a percent of America’s annual GDP by 2030. These figures beguile policymakers. If global warming is so cheap to fix, why not?

While cap and trade is an elegant system on paper, politicians and most of the public don’t seem to grasp that it will be much messier and costlier in practice. Any program strict enough to cut emissions growth—never mind slashing emissions!—will raise power prices in America, plain and simple. In fact, hiking power prices is really the point of any carbon cap-and-trade program. We’d be taking a huge competitive advantage—much of our power is cheap and plentiful and not dependent on international fuels—and transforming it through regulation into a disadvantage.

Keep in mind that half of America’s power comes from coal. Coal is dirty, but it has been good for us economically. Building and running an old-fashioned coal-fired electricity plant is more than 35 percent cheaper, per kilowatt of power produced, than building and running a natural-gas-fired plant, which emits far less carbon dioxide, and nearly 20 percent cheaper than a nuclear plant, which emits no carbon dioxide, according to Tufts University economics professor Gilbert Metcalf. Coal also costs less than wind or solar—by 40 percent and 70 percent, respectively—even though they’re subsidized by tax credits. Nor do we need to worry about running out of coal or reeling from an international supply shock. We’ve got at least several hundred years’ worth of the stuff right here in the U.S.

From an environmental perspective, though, coal is too plentiful and cheap, making it hard for cleaner energy to compete with it. The only way to make it cost more—and thus begin the process of weaning us off it—is through regulation. And over time, that’s exactly what a carbon cap-and-trade program does. Because burning coal creates so much carbon, coal-fired power plants would have to pay far more than cleaner competitors to continue business as usual as the government tightened the cap.

How much would power prices go up if carbon emissions were no longer free? The Energy Information Administration estimates that under a plan cutting expected emissions growth by half by 2030, the price of electricity after inflation would be higher than it would otherwise be by 4 to 6 percent by 2020 and by 11 to 13 percent by 2030, as power companies spent money both upgrading power plants and buying the emissions credits that they’d need should they choose not to upgrade. Carbon cap and trade has pushed wholesale power prices in Europe up 5 to 10 percent just since 2005, says Phil Hare, director of U.K.-based Pöyry Energy Consulting. And if Europe lowers its initially generous cap enough to encourage companies to switch permanently from coal to gas power plants, prices could rise 20 to 40 percent over a decade or so.

But prices also would depend on political decisions. The first, naturally, is how generous the government would be with its total carbon cap. Another involves determining which emissions-reductions projects in the developing world investors can fund to get carbon credits. Europe has allowed the United Nations to make some of those decisions, but given the UN’s rampant cronyism, its participation almost guarantees opaque political favoritism. Under what circumstances could the friends, fathers-in-law, and various hangers-on of UN delegates not think it’s a great idea to launch dubious businesses investing in clean energy?

The UN carbon-credits program has already proven wildly inefficient. In an article in February’s Nature, Michael Wara, a Stanford sustainable-development program veteran, noted that the UN initiative is spending billions of dollars in Western carbon-credits money to do work that should cost much less, and may be contributing to the problem instead of solving it. In fact, upgrading refrigerant plants, a popular way of winning carbon credits to sell in the European market, is so cheap and easy that many Third World firms were doing it voluntarily until the cap-and-trade West started paying them to do it. And now there’s evidence that some firms may be purposely increasing emissions just so that they can win Western money to decrease them.

Then there’s Russia, which hasn’t joined Europe’s cap-and-trade program but would enjoy a huge competitive advantage if it did. Each country’s cap is based on the Kyoto Protocol’s recommendations. Kyoto calls for Russia to cut emissions to 1990 levels—but the country’s economic decline means that it already emits far less carbon now than it did then. The likely result: tens of billions of dollars’ worth of extra emissions credits to trade in Europe’s market. “Russia is the Saudi Arabia of carbon,” a spokesman for Gazprom, the nation’s natural-gas company, told the New York Times in April. And Russia’s abundance of credits would let it influence prices by affecting supply, just as the Saudis try to do with oil prices. In a global carbon market like that envisioned by many multinational companies and trading firms, Russia’s decisions on how many carbon credits to release into the market would help determine how much a New York power company paid for its greenhouse-gas allowances. A global carbon market, in other words, could make the price of American coal-fired electricity dependent on global forces, just as oil prices are.

American companies and consumers would also feel the squeeze of the phenomenon called NIMBY: “Not in my backyard!” The feds’ Energy Information Administration assumes that American power companies would respond to the new cost of carbon by readily switching from dirty coal to cleaner technologies such as nuclear, natural gas, and biomass. It predicts that the nation’s power producers would boost nuclear generation by 50 percent over the next 23 years—five times the growth expected without a cap—and increase natural-gas output 20 percent above the level expected without a cap. But this happy scenario requires politicians to let power companies build new plants. Often, the very same pols backing cap and trade don’t want any company to build property-value-destroying, voter-repellent power plants in their constituents’ backyards.

Nuclear energy, for instance, is already an established way to produce mass-scale power for a reasonable cost. But no company has started up a nuclear plant in America in three decades, partly because fierce local and state government opposition makes it nearly impossible. In New York, Governor Eliot Spitzer wants to cap carbon emissions, even though the state’s power prices are already 57 percent above the national average. But at the same time, he hopes to close the downstate region’s only operating nuclear plant, Westchester County’s Indian Point, “as soon as replacement power is available.” If New York caps emissions and encourages power companies to build more nuclear plants, power prices will go up to pay for the new construction. But if New York caps emissions and effectively caps new generation by discouraging power companies from building nuclear plants, prices will go way up. Financiers also hesitate to back new nuclear plants, because Washington opponents—these days led by Nevada Democrat and Senate majority leader Harry Reid—have stalled on building a permanent fuel-waste storage site in a remote area of Nevada.

Natural gas is a second cleaner alternative to coal. But natural-gas power plants, even if companies get to build them, need, well, natural gas, and our domestic production falls short of growing demand. To import gas, we’d have to build more natural-gas terminals on our coastlines—where, citizens fear, terrorists might blow them up. Earlier this year, Chevron canceled plans to build a terminal off the California coast, after years of resistance; on the East Coast, politicians on Long Island and in Rhode Island have stubbornly opposed terminals.

Wind meets with NIMBY resistance, too. Last year, Massachusetts senator Ted Kennedy maneuvered to block the proposed Cape Wind power farm off Hyannis, saying that it would hurt navigation and tourism. Consultants studying an upstate New York project found that windmills had killed hundreds of bats and migrating birds over a period of five months.

Many cap-and-trade supporters, joined by coal-mining interests, point to newfangled “clean” coal technology as a catchall solution, claiming that it would allow us to exploit our coal supplies while lowering emissions. Clean coal could replace regular old dirty coal to make electricity, it’s true, but it would involve either gasifying the coal instead of pulverizing it, so that it burned more cleanly; or capturing and storing carbon emissions from the plant, most likely underground, so that they didn’t escape into the atmosphere; or both.

The technology and expense of such new approaches are uncertain. Michael Rencheck, senior vice president of engineering at American Electric Power, supports a cap-and-trade program but estimates that the cost of producing electricity at the first type of cleaner-coal plant would be at least 20 percent higher than at a conventional one. Capturing and storing the carbon, Rencheck believes, would cost 60 to 70 percent more than old-fashioned coal generation. If and when the technology works, the price will fall, but that could be decades away.

The political and legal hurdles to making coal plants cleaner might dwarf the technical issues, says James Liles, a regulatory advisor with the Milbank, Tweed law firm who also supports cap and trade. While it’s quite possible, he explains, for power-plant operators to lay underground pipelines to depleted natural-gas fields, where they could store carbon emissions, such an undertaking would cost tens of billions of dollars and involve heavy construction work near hundreds of power plants, “many located in densely populated areas far away from any fields.” Because of inevitable state and local opposition, property-rights rows at now-dormant gas fields, and investor worries about technical glitches and legal liability, it’s likely that the feds would need to coordinate, and perhaps financially guarantee, the first few carbon-storage projects.

The biggest problem with cap and trade, however, is that it collides with the reality of global competition. We live not in a world of united nations, where the environment comes first, but in a cutthroat competitive economy, where small changes in certain prices can determine, say, whether a businessman keeps his manufacturing plant in upstate New York or places his orders instead with a factory in China. Developing nations won’t voluntarily give up a major competitive advantage—cheaper power—should we hand it to them. Can what’s left of New York’s industry, for example, stomach a 10 percent or greater increase in the price of power, without sending more jobs offshore?

Even if we decide to hurt ourselves economically to save the world, helping China and India and other less developed countries become more energy-efficient won’t reduce the planet’s global-warming emissions anyway. Over the past 25 years, for instance, because China has been growing and modernizing its economy, it has actually decreased its carbon inefficiency by nearly two-thirds. But as China’s corporations and citizens grow richer, they use more carbon even as they get more efficient, using the profits from their newfound productivity to buy energy-gobbling automobiles and dishwashers. (As the Manhattan Institute’s Peter Huber explains, Americans similarly take advantage of higher energy efficiency by using more electricity to do once-unheard-of new things, such as charging cell phones.)

If America’s politicians and corporate leaders truly believe that much of the world will suffer irrevocable damage from climate change within the next century, then obviously we should try to stop it. But the first step shouldn’t be a feel-good cap-and-trade regime. Federal, state, and local government should instead work together to remove all obstacles that prevent private companies from building new nuclear power plants, since it’s foolish not to take immediate advantage of a proven, cost-competitive alternative to dirty coal.

After taking that obvious step, pols and business leaders should do a gut check. Are they so certain of the catastrophic effects of climate change that they would support a straightforward emissions tax, rather than a carbon cap-and-trade program that (deceptively) seems so easy? After all, strip away the rhetoric about cap and trade, and it would have the same effect as a tonnage tax on carbon emissions: making such emissions more expensive; discouraging carbon-intensive power generation; and allowing the market to decide which environmentally friendlier technologies—solar, wind, what have you—would be competitive enough to take its place.

The pols and business leaders could suggest that America gradually impose such a tax, one that’s high enough within a decade to encourage industries and consumers to switch permanently to cleaner technology. A tax would mean higher power prices, too, but at least it wouldn’t mean directly subsidizing competitors abroad. And the feds could use the tax’s revenue to reduce taxes elsewhere in the economy—perhaps cutting dividend and capital-gains taxes further, to encourage the massive private investment needed to build the next generation of power generators. Nor would a tax create a new multibillion-dollar global commodity whose value could depend on political manipulation in dark corners of the world.

If it’s true that a consensus about global warming really exists, not just in press releases and on op-ed pages but in the back rooms of power, too, the politicians and the business leaders wouldn’t be afraid to suggest such a tax. They would insist on it.

Originally appeared in City Journal

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About The Author

Nicole Gelinas is the Searle Freedom Trust Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a contributing editor of City Journal.

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Global Warming and global business
"Richard Haass, the current president of the Council on Foreign Relations, stated in his article "State sovereignty must be altered in globalized era," that a system of world government must be created and sovereignty eliminated in order to fight global warming, as well as terrorism. "Moreover, states must be prepared to cede some sovereignty to world bodies if the international system is to function," says Haass. "Globalization thus implies that sovereignty is not only becoming weaker in reality, but that it needs to become weaker. States would be wise to weaken sovereignty in order to protect themselves..."

If the CFR says it's global warming, so goes big business

Republicans are allergic to ANY taxes
"If it’s true that a consensus about global warming really exists, not just in press releases and on op-ed pages but in the back rooms of power, too, the politicians and the business leaders wouldn’t be afraid to suggest such a tax. They would insist on it."

Nope.

Republicans are allergic to raising ANY taxes, for any purpose whatsoever, in any economic condition whatsoever. They have turned the original "supply-side economics" theory into a dogma in which taxes are only cut, never raised, ever.

I support a carbon tax. But the only chance to get it (and the only chance to get a comprehensive energy policy generally) is if the Democrats win a filibuster-proof Senate in 2008. The oil industry is one of the GOP's big campaign contributors and that has been a real obstacle to real energy reform.

BTW: Newt Gingrich has now admitted that global-warming is caused by human-produced greenhouse gas; the only question for him now is what do we do about it.

Sooo 84%
think mankind is causing global warming.
That has to be the most disheartening of all things. To learn our country is infested with that much stupidity is scary as hell.
No wonder Muslims want kill us.

Even if man was causing global warming, the only solution would be to reduce the population-a lot

Buying and selling carbon credits?? what idiots to believe that crap.

Pt 1
There is so much wrong with this column I don't know where to start. First off, I do not consider National Review a conservative magazine anymore. Largely they are a Neocon organization and a Bush apologist. They supported the amnesty scam. Second, I don't believe ANY poll, particularly one that says the majority of Republicans thing that humans have a significant impact on Global Climate. And besides that, I don't care if they did because, as we have said many many times here, science doesn't care what the polls say or what consensus there is. Thirdly we have previously seen Newt sign on to this scam and he has lost support because of it. We have also previously seen corporations sign on to this scam, not because they believe a word of it, but because they have figured out an angle to make money out of it and so they can get PR from it. Most of them think that if it actually costs them money they can pass it on to consumers. They also figure that under “cap and trade” that they can influence the politicians to give them an excess of credits that they can then sell to the less politically connected companies. Yes, have the government create a new product from thin air, allocate to you, and force other people to buy it. If that isn’t the classic case of government corruption, then I don’t know what is. In fact, this all started back in the 80s with Enron pushing for this.

Pt 2

In addition to all of the above, the cost differences between Nuclear Power and Coal are incorrect. True Nuclear Power plants were more expensive to build (largely due to excessive changes government regulation during construction), but they are also much cheaper to operate in almost all conditions. Also, clean coal technology only removes the particulate pollutants, it does not remove CO2. If you wanted to create a process to do that it is likely that coal plants would cost more than nuclear. Currently there is no practical way to remove CO2 from burning coal on a large scale.

Supporters of Carbon Taxes like stevel are like socialist democrats everywhere. The only thing they believe in is more and more taxes. If the supporters of this scam really wanted to promote halting CO2 via a carbon tax they would research and come up with a program that would be tax neutral. If a company had to pay $10,000,000 a year in carbon taxes, then that same company would get $10,000,000/year in tax reduction in other areas.

And finally, anybody who believes anything that the U.N. says is clinically insane.

pandm, you are so right!
I thought we were winning the GW argument. Now, all of a sudden, people are buying into it. What we need is a 3rd party break-away from the GOP instead of staying home on poll day like petulant children. I can't stand it anymore.

Carbon cap = tinfoil hat
Point one. Life on this planet would not exist were it not for greenhouse gasses. Ever wonder why there's no life on the moon?
Point two, the hypothesized change in global trmperature is less than the accuracy limits of instruments used to measure temps until the last 50 years or less. AGW temp change producing the current panic is lees than 2 degrees C, which is within the 90% confidence interval for global temps which at any given time exhibit wide variability.
Point three, thermometers were not invented until the 1600s, and both their availability and accuracy evolved slowly. Ergo, we don't have enough data to make long range conclusions about climate variation.
Point four. Who's to say that the current climate is optimal or that warmer temperatures are harmful?
The area where I live was 65 million years ago a subtropical swamp inhabited by dinosaurs, 100,000 years ago was under a glacier, and now is a temperate climate with regular snowfall in the winter and highs in the 90's or higher in the summer, so what's normal????

Sad realization
It is a sad realization that our leaders, corporate and politicaly, have buckled under to the the cries from the far left realitive to global warming. The next thing will be accepting that Muslim extremists really are nice people with reasonable demands.

However, if one looks with jaded eye at America and Americans as we face the real problem of overdependence on foreign oil, it is hard to see an easy to solution to that problem. However, if the powers that be use global warming as the excuse to raise taxes, to increase the cost of everything generally and to lower our standard of living then we meet the combined goals of reducing greenhouse gases and our dependency on foreign oil.

Impressive
I'm impressed that Townhall has published an article that acknowledges AGW. Of course, there'll be another piece that blames solar in a day or two, but it's a start.


Duck the quack
"Global warming has about as much creditability as evolution. It takes a village idiot to believe in either."

With you on GW.

What is your bias against evolution. wondering if you believe in creationism in all it's scientific glory!




Only One Solution
Has anyone ever wondered exactly why every proposed solution to this problem involves reducing greenhouse gas emissions?

What about technological fixes to reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the surface?

Cap & Trade = Bait & Switch
I have the perfect solution to "Man Made Global Warming or Climate Change".

Kill off most human life & create a nuclear winter.

Between the U.S., Russia, and the other nuclear powers we have enough warheads to obliterate all of the high population zones. The fall out can take out a lot more humans. Then the resulting nuclear winter will lower the tempratures planet wide.

Sound crazy?

No more so than the solutions already being proposed to a so called "problem".

The fix is in...
Oh yeah... cap and trade is the game industry all wants to play, hey?

This reminds me of how the nonsense of the "ozone hole" was finally embraced by "industry" when Dow managed to develop a "green" replacement for Freon-12 (R-12)which had become the bete noir for environmentalists who had worked themselves into a hysteria after having decided that CFC's were causing the seasonal ozone hole over the South Pole in spite of the fact that 95% of CFC releases were in the northern hemisphere. Somehow that "inconvenient truth" was shrugged off.

The problem, if it can be called one, with the new "green" refrigerant was that it cost about 3-4 times as much per pound as R-12. This was exacerbated by the "accomodation" that environmentalists swallowed which allowed for R-12 to continue to be made in "developing" economies like China. Since then R-12 smuggling has been vying with illegal drugs for pride of place in the world of legislatively created criminals.

That industry has started endorsed cap and trade is not a sure sign that industrialists have accepted the logic of anthropomorphic global warming. It's more likely a sign that industrialists have found a convenient way to get enviroNazis off their back.

Cap-and-Trade
... and/or a Carbon Tax have the strong potential to be The New Prohibition, as "50 is the new 40" and "Red is the new Black" and blah blah blah.

Any of you plan to just still for having the price of the necessities of your life arbitrarily jacked up by the government for the benefit of China, Russia, and UN contractors?

Not all Americans are fools. I imagine quite a few of us will respond to any economic challenges induced by cap-and-trade measures by "getting off the grid." Sales of home generators, swamp coolers, and firewood will soar. Sales of a number of price-sensitive consumer goods will decline. Small will be the new big when it comes to marketing food and motor fuel. The more the government tries to regulate power, manufacturing, and distribution, the less these things will be done on a centralized, large-footprint, high-employing basis. Environmentalists who think this is what they want anyway are in for a shock when the tax base that makes their way of life possible declines, with losses of taxable jobs, taxable employers, and home values in the older cities.

The idea that Americans will just trundle along like cattle in our existing economic groove, no matter how the government messes with it, is what's laughable. Cap-and-trade is mainly a good way to put a lot of American companies out of business, and a lot of Americans out of their jobs. The earth and its myriad other forms of life will continue emitting all the CO2 they do now -- and with each year China, India, and other nations with the signed excuse slip from Kyoto will emit MORE.

dyerje
That's what the inviro-nuts want. If you raise the price of generated electricity enough, solar and wind become competitive. Of course, everyone's costs go through the roof to do that. The limosine liberals don't care because it is chickenfeed to them. The urban dwellers don't care if gas is $10.00/gal because they use gas-subsidized buses and subways.

GW reality


How can so many people be convinced that human activity that emits CO2 is causing global warming? When you hear one of the twits claim they believe humans are the root cause of GW give them the following test.

Q1. What is the percentage of CO2 in air?

A1. Roughly 300 parts per million or 0.03%. (lots of luck finding someone with the correct answer)

Q2. What evidence is there that increased radiation from the Sun may be responsible for GW?

A2. The polar ice caps on Mars have decreased in nearly the same proportion as those on Earth.

Q3. Who benefits from selling the THEORY that GW is cause by humans?

A3. Government, GW is a perfect PERCEIVED problem. It draws the public's attention away from REAL problems that government can't solve while creating an expansion of control and a smoke screen for more taxes.

Q4. What could be a contributing factor in GW other than CO2 increases?

A4. Heat generated by fires resulting from lightning strikes and from burning of fossil fuels. The specific heat of air is about 0.24 BTU per pound per degree F.

Q5. How many SUVs and coal fired power plants did the clever cave men have that cause the end of the Ice Age?

A5. At last count zero.

globalwarming
In a month or so the seasonal turning of the leaves in New England bring tourists from all over the world. Should you visit go to Northfield Mountain in northwestern Massachusetts. There is a nature center there. One is informed that 14000 years ago to the west there was a glacier 10000 feet deep. Over the centuries it melted forming a huge lake. The lake eventually broke through to Long Island Sound, thereby creating the Connecticut River. Except for a few infidels who blame the duration of sunspots, the intensity of sunspots, the frequency of sunspots, the wobble in the axis of the earth, and various other such, we all know that this glacier was melted because of human activity. But who were the humans? Here is a hint. A few miles to the south is the Mohawk Trail The horrid culprits were the Mohawk Indians smoking peace pipes.

we're expendable.
"I thought clinton would be the one to cause America's downfall. But bush is hellbent to destroy America. He's continuing his strategy of 2006. He just keeps sticking his thumb in the conservatives base eye. boy george's view of the globe is a globe without the USA in it."

And yet you attack Anarchists, Greens and Libertarians for being unpatriotic, and scream USA,USA,USA while BUSH inc. send you, your sons and daughters off to war make to make the world safe for Kellogg Brown and Root.

Do you really think the government is protecting OUR WAY OF LIFE?
It's more like Wall Streets way of life. Your just so scared of communism that you never bothered to read anything that might be called COMMUNIST.

Wake up... The government doesn’t care about you. This isn't your country. It's Wall streets country. Your expendable.

Read http://zmag.org/weluser.htm and http://www.infoshop.org/

GW
Where were all the good people now saving us when over the past quarter century instead of building electric generators burning coal, oil, and natural gas, we could have been building nuclear generators. The fuel cells have waste, which really is 99.7 per cent reusable fuel and .3 per cent valuable elements like cesium used in medicine. But that is before they throw in workmen's gloves and dirt, and walls, before storing for decades then shipping to Nevada.

global village
The global village is the goal, and global warming is the tool. Now Al's propoganda makes sense, along with his not living green. Living green isn't the issue, redistribution of wealth through tax and cap is the issue. It won't work, communism never has, never will.

Global Warming - Global con game
Facts are stubborn things, so said a true American Patriot, John Adams. Here are some numbers I can't get around. We could put the entire world's population - 6.6 BILLION people, in the state of Texas, and each PERSON would have 1200 ft2 of space.

So,a family of four would have 4800 ft2. I'm not advocating all of us moving to Texas, but I am suggesting that the Global Warming crowd is using fuzzy math to drive an agenda.

Further, if we were to limit the earth's population to just 10% of the land mass of the earth, at 1200ft per person, we could grow 17 TIMES the current level and have enough room, and still have 90% of the land mass left - even excluding Antartica's as uninhabitable.

GW is a fear-mongering tactic. Do we need to keep the environment clean? Of course, we can do better. But i fear there is a lot more here than worrying about a degree or two.

And what about just a mere 30 years ago, when the great fear was Global cooling - that the ice age was happening again? Facts are stubborn things indeed.

Nuclear Medicine, and a Styrofoam cup
We must make sure the hospital has a complete list of the anti-nuclear people. We wouldn’t want a mistake to be made and have their lives saved through the application of Nuclear Medicine.

I remember the lady on a cross-country 747 flight who was incensed to receive a drink of water in a Styrofoam cup. Environmaniacs will still fly in a 747 that spews tons of pollutants, but they don’t want to drink from a Styrofoam cup.

(This is not only an Urban Legend, I actually saw it happen.)

Nuclear engineers told me 50 years ago, that they expected electricity to be free by 2000, as it would cost more to install meters, read them, send out bills, and cash the checks, than the electricity would cost.

How about charging the battery in your car for free? But that will scare the lefty eviro’s to death, they would have to find something else to holler about.

An evironut thinks a thousand wind mills, as seen near Palm Springs, CA, are beautiful, but one or two oil rigs in the ocean off Santa Barbara, CA are ugly.

But did you know that now you can walk on the beach in Santa Barbara and not get your shoes or feet oily, and fifty years ago the beach was covered with oil that had leaked, naturally, from below the ocean.

U.S. Geological Survey
My letter to the Editor, as printed in a National News Mag in 2006

I read a U.S. Geological Survey publication entitled "The Great Ice Age," a recent chapter in the Earth's history. It discussed glaciers 1,000 feet thick that covered the United States during four glacial periods. Nowhere did it mention, however, how many Hummers or Suburbans caused all that ice to melt. Could it be climate change happens now and then?

Jim
The "too cheap to meter" myth got started more than 50 years ago and failed to come about because government regulation drove the price through the roof. Currently nuclear utitlities are paying the government more money for Yucca Mountain per year than what they had expected the total annual operating costs to be. And that BTW is only one of the literaly thousands of regulatory charges that go on.

I could go along with this agenda
If every single dollar in enviro-fines went into creating a cheap clean energy alternative. Not because I believe global warming is caused by co2 emissions, but to remove the dependence on oil in the world so the middle east will not have the leverage it has today (and maybe lower our $300.00 electric bills). I saw a show on a breakthrough in solar power panels that will make them much cheaper and more efficient. This seems like the most promising alternative at least for producing electricity. They would also have to stay away from the carbon credit scam.

vic
I thought the article was excellent, It did not take a position except on the tax which I will addess later. Her point was that the powers that be have bought into GW including leaders of the Rep party. That is reality.

And given that what is to be done. You are not going to win under the current atmosphere unless there is some great breakthru which shows there is no GW; very difficult to prove a negative once the society has bought into GW.

So, if you want to join the game, you argue for the most efficient way to do this. There are only two ways: alternative energy sources and cutting down consumption and they feed on each other.
And how you cut down consumption except by pricing and taxes.

By challanging the basic assumptions all together, you deal yourself out of the game of having any influence. It is not a pleasant thought.

Sustainable future
Wow there are a lot of logical and economic fallacies here. First, coal is not actually cheaper than renewables. The costs are just divided between direct costs which we pat at the meter and indirect costs (externalities) that society pays. Just as companies are forced to clean up waste dumped into rivers, they have to clean up wastes dumped into air. Anyone that has taken any type of economic classes should be able to understand that.

Next, just because CO2 is found in nature and is part of the life cycle doesn’t mean that it’s more is better. If you don’t believe go down to LA and take a deep breath. CO2 in and of itself is good. But too much of a good thing can kill you.

The whole problem with our energy markets is because of the externalities involved with fossil fuel energy generation we are currently consuming more than we should be. IE we are consuming an uneconomic and inefficient amount. Therefore, if we were to consume less of it we could actually improve our utility.

Finally we have enough wind energy in the USA to power the whole country and then some. We could be building our hydrogen economy right now, an economy not dependent on foreign oil, and one that did not pollute our air and water. Yes it would require (shocking) investment in our nation’s infrastructure. But just like our nation became stronger because of our investments in roads bridges and the electric grid, so too would this investment produce a stronger and healthier society. We know fossil fuels are a finite resource. If we want this nation to prosper we need to look towards a sustainable and renewable future.

Liberal Theology
Because of this demented, unscientific, liberal theology, expect your budgetary costs to increase by 25-33% as soon as these morons start taxing people.

You know what we get for this huge budget busting expense? Not a damn thing. Humans are not effecting our climate at all. But all these earth worshipping idiots will feel better.

It is time for all reasonable people to punch an environmental wacko every single day.

Vic
The analogy that applies is social security. No one can make an argument that will have any traction that the govt has no business in this. So, you argue for the most efficient way for people to build up a retirement fund. The govt will be involved but there are better ways to do it than what we have now.

50 to 60 years ago, that wasn’t a myth
Vic writes: Monday, August, 27, 2007 1:13 PM
The "too cheap to meter" myth
-----
When I was working with Nuclear Scientists 50 to 60 years ago, that wasn’t a myth. It became impossible when the enviors took charge. But I am surprised they have found no use for the waste, as they expected to do, all those years ago.

Remember, enviors are the people who want an open border, but won’t let anyone cut down a tree to get lumber to build a house where someone could live.

And I could tell a dozen more, but — — —

The Science is Settled . . . .
I'm through trying to reason with the global warmists morons. Therefore, I have my own global warming theory that I'm now declaring as settled:

If you believe that human activity is driving global warming, you are a naive, gullible, fool.

Either that or you're just an idiot.

Okay . . . you could possibly fall into the catagory of charlatan scam artist a la algore. Actually, I'm not sure which catagory he falls into . . . he does come across as rather stupid.

Now run and go tell mommy that I called you a name.


easy way to cut costs for medical care
len writes: Monday, August, 27, 2007 1:48 PM
Vic
So, you argue for the most efficient way for people to build up a retirement fund.
-----
Government can come up with an efficient, easy way to cut costs for medical care.

We can just let each doctor and medical institution write a check on a government account at the end of each day. There would be no need, therefore no cost, to administrate such a system, thereby cutting the cost for the government operated health care system.

Gasoline taxes: Toll roads
Here’s my Letter to the Editor, published about 20 years ago, when our gasoline was maybe $1.50 (a guess) and it’s still true.


The old story that high gasoline taxes and a good transportation system will get the cars off the streets, is a myth. Visit Paris (with the best subway system of any city, and $4 per gallon gasoline), or Rome (where gas is about $5 per gallon, but the subway system is not so great) and you will see that driving and parking in any city in the USA is a "Walk in the Park" by comparison.

AGW Fiction
Even after learning the figures fed into their theory are wrong. Even after learning the CO2 comes many years AFTER the warming because it is caused by the warming!

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200708/CUL20070816b.html

They still insist AGW is real.
This is the only thing real about the AGW Scam!

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200705/POL20070511b.html

Taxing mortgages on mansions to appease the working class?
How many mansions that have been in the family for several generations will still have a mortgage?

Vic
Actually, I'm not talking about solar and wind. I'm talking about people resorting to their own household (or business) diesel and gas generators. CO2 will still get pumped out into the atmosphere. I couldn't even begin to tell you what the overall delta in CO2 emissions might be, in either direction -- up or down.

So no, this isn't what the C-AGW advocates want. But it's an increasingly likely outcome of the government force-elevating the price of a BTU from the power company. The inconvenience and inefficiency would be increased for all, and the C-AGW advocates wouldn't get what they want.

To get what the C-AGW crowd really wants, the government would have to ban household/small business power generation with fossil fuels.

Politicians are going to have a harder time doing that. They get to hide behind the cover of merely "soaking big business" with the cap-and-trade BS -- most people don't put it together that the more we regulate, the more everything costs. (Of course, "business" doesn't pay for regulation; the consumer does. But too many people on both the right and the left are blind to that reality.)

Cap-and-trade is likely to drive at least some of the economic activity it targets "off" the official economy, just as Prohibition did. If we think the "underground" illegal labor economy is a problem, I predict the cap-and-trade-evading economy would eclipse it. There's nothing illegal about using a home generator today -- but since cap-and-trade wouldn't address things like that, the next political agitation would be precisely for such prohibitions.

We don't need certainty to act
Why do people waste so much time arguing whether they are certain global warming is occurring. I would think even the biggest skeptic or believer would have to admit there was the possibility that they could be wrong. However, life is full of uncertainty. That doesn’t prevent us from taking action. Maybe my house will burn down, maybe it won’t, either way I’m buying insurance. People that claim that global warming is 100% not occurring are just as much a fool as those that claim it’s for sure 100%. Probably global warming is real, but it’s possible it’s not. Either way it’s a smart move to take common sense measures to reduce the risk. Especially since there are so many other benefits to doing so (less dependence on foreign oil etc).

Same old pig.
Anyone remember Algore's "BTU Tax"?
AGW is simply a super sales pitch for Algore's Carbon Tax that is simply the BTU Tax in a different shade of lipstick.

And the European loonies claim we will cause a new Ice Age!

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,293510,00.html

Kroneborge
Homeowner's insurance costs me about $1100 a year. It does nothing to threaten my economic well-being or inhibit the economic success of others. It doesn't interfere with my access to life-saving modern conveniences like the vast electrical power generation required to keep hospitals, medical equipment, and 911 services in operation.

Moreover -- and this is key -- I have instance after documented instance of homeowner's insurance working as advertised. It performs as intended; we don't have to guess whether it will or not. You pay the premium, and when your house burns down, the insurance company requites your loss in accordance with the prior agreement.

Cap-and-trade is a measure with a much higher cost than the $1100 a year I pay for insurance. It WILL unquestionably interfere with the economic success of others, at the very least. It is likely to increase the cost to me of any number of things, from a unit of electricity to a bar of soap. If I live in a less-affluent community, it has the potential to interfere with my access to life-saving services, when their costs of operation become too great.

Moreover -- and this is key -- cap-and-trade in America is untried and undocumented in terms of reducing CO2 emissions; it doesn't, in any accountable way, address CO2 emissions where they have increased the most dramatically, in China and India; and we have no way of knowing either IF cap-and-trading will get us back to a 1990 level of emissions by 2020, or WHETHER that will make any difference at all to the average temperature of the planet.

We wouldn't pay for insurance either, if its cost forced us to change our whole way of life, and if we had no basis for expecting any accountable outcome when we did so.

dyerje
I didn’t necessarily say I support cap and trade (although I could under the right circumstances). I just said we shouldn’t shy away from measures that could reduce the risk of climate change. I believe the Stern’s report (and many others) on climate change estimated that the costs to fight climate change would equal around 1% of GDP. But that the risks of climate change would be from 5-20%. I don’t think 1% of GDP is a horrible huge amount to spend to clean up the environment, reduce our dependency on foreign oil, and reduce the risks of climate change. In fact if we switched to something like the fair tax we would be able to save 3% of GDP on tax compliance would be more than enough to do this and still have savings left over for other stuff.

I totally agree that we will need China and India etc to get on board, but it’s up to us to lead the way. Fighting climate change won’t wreck our way of life just like stopping acid rain didn’t (remember the predictions of doom and gloom). All it will take is a bit of foresight and planning for the future.

Global Warming Paradox
I find it amazing that most of the same people that tell us that man is responsible for global warming inexplicable tend to be people that also support adding millions of people to our country through mass immigration of both the legal and illegal kind. This paradox would only be humorous if it weren't for the fact that these same politicians want to institute carbon taxes and other redistributionist schemes using targets that will never be met with our population growing at such ridiculously high levels.

Yes our country CAN support many more people than the 300 million or so that are already here, but WHY is that desired by so many? I don't believe that man is responsible for global warming, but I also don't really desire that our country have a population density to rival that of Bangladesh or Sri Lanka. There is no doubt that more people = more demand for energy = more trash and waste = more demand for natural resources = more of an overall impact on the land. And for what??? So that we can have cheap labor, diversity, and the lure of the American dream for the world's 4 billion or so desperately poor denizens.

So while our country continues to grow at 3rd world rates, our politicians are busy devising schemes that will tax individuals and businesses for the output and demands that will be required for these additional inhabitants upon our land. Taxes that you and I will have to pay whether or not we are in favor of the Bangladeshization of our country.

Len
AGW is a scam period. A fraud designed to bilk money from the average citizen and give it to third parties, choice dependent on whatever the fix-dejeur is. We have debated this here and given links out the ying-yang showing why the AGW crowd is wrong and in some cases they are intentionally wrong (fraud). I will continue to argue against any programs for this. Any politician who jumps on the AGW bandwagon will not only NOT receive my vote but I will actively campaign against.

Jim

I worked in commercial Nuclear Power for 30 years before retiring. It became expensive first after Browns Ferry caused an avalanche of some of the most idiotic regulations (Appendix R) I have ever seen and then after Three Mile Island a wave front of idiotic actions and regulations.

As for the waste issue, you can thank that wonderful epitome of incompetent boobs, Jimmy Carter. The original idea was to reprocess the fuel and have a much smaller waste footprint similar to what the French finally wound up doing. Mr. Peanut shutdown the facility that was supposed to do that and the only thing the government could come up with after that was Yucca Mountain which the utilities have been paying on for decades.

vic
I am not argueing with you. I am skeptical of AGW although I am not qualified to make a case since I am not familiar in detail with the literature.

Regardless, as I analogized to social security, it is taken seriously as truth and the idea is fine to fight it but one also has to try to have influence the way leglislation that will becoming with AGW to make it least harmful.

vic
The art of politics is get your program across. And if you see that you cannot control the onslaught of an idea, then the strategy is to co-opt it so you can instigage the best policies.

News
A few hours ago while sitting in a doctor's waiting room I started reading Newsweek of August 13 and found the most interesting article on global warming that I have ever seen. In a long and detailed article, Newsweek takes us "Inside the Denial Machine", analyzing the opposition to global warming. Turns out this opposition has been carefully orchestrated---and richly financed---by, who else, business that stands to lose money if global warming is taken seriously by Americans. "A conservative think-tank long funded by Exxon...offered scientists $10,000 to write articles undercutting [claims about global warming]". Also "Through advertisements, op-eds, lobbying, and media attention...free-market think-tanks have created a paralyzing fog of doubt around climate change". And "Fossil fuel interests including Exxon and the American Petroleum Institute formed the Global Climate Coalition to oppose legislative action targeting climate change." On and on for pages of very specific information making it totally clear that business and a Republican government have worked together to create, deliberately, enough public doubt and confusion that global warming would not be taken seriously---because if it were, it would lose money for American business. In other words, this is about greed in action. And every time some townhaller says "Global warming is a hoax" or "The science isn't there" he lets us all know that he has been taken in by a giant PR campaign.

Len
I am not arguing. What I am saying is that I will fight it tooth and nail down to the wire and actively fight against any polititician that supports it.

Personally I truly think that Al Gore who negotiated a treaty (and did the signing) at the same time that he started a company that would benefit from that treaty should be jailed.

Attn\ Global Warming Alarmists
Sheryl Crow is doing her part RIGHT NOW to save the World.
Are you true believers going to pitch in and help or are you all talk?
You should set an example for us AGW deniers!

http://www.snarkygossip.com/2007/04/23/so-how-does-sheryl-crow-do-a-number-two/

lilly
At one time I have subsribed to Newsweek, Time, and U.S. News and World Report. After each subscription ran out I moved on to the next because I realized that they were left wing lying rags that you could not believe a word they said.

Another thing to keep in mind
now that NASA has been caught a second time doctoring the data. If we can get true numbers published and hold out for a few more years we may indeed have turned the corner and be on a cooling trend.

The the kooks can come back with the same "prepare for the ice age" that they had a decade ago. Of course the solution then will be another tax also.

certainty
It’s funny how people will argue degrees of certainty all day. Are they skeptics so sure that there is such a massive conspiracy going on? 100% certain that global warming FOR SURE isn’t going on? I see it’s much more believable that a bunch of crazy tree huggers want clean air and water so bad they will make up global warming. That’s WAY more believable than oil and gas companies wanting to protect profits by denying it. I thought we were supposed to be the intelligent side? The one that actually looks at facts on the ground, scientific evidence, and takes a measured response to a possible threat. I guess the fringes on both sides are just as extreme ?

Kroneborge
As far back as recorded history, mankind has been cursed with charlatans demanding sacrifice to control natural climate change.
They are not called Shaman or Witch today, we now call them "Environmentalists".

These Charlatans know we are aware our Earth is in a natural cycle of warming from the last Ice AGE.

These Charlatans know we are aware the Sun and all Planets are also growing warmer AT THE EXACT SAME RATE!

These Charlatans are counting on a vast number of ignorant, uninformed people who are easy to scam.

This scam is not new.
It is simply a new sales pitch for the old BTU Tax.
They call it a "Carbon Tax", put a new shade of lipstick on it and sell it to the gullible.

Does that explain why mostly Liberals are taken in by this scam?

Gelinas misses the worst part... (1/2)
Interesting article, although her analysis of the detrimental economics is flawed.

I'm not claiming that there would be no detrimental economic effect to cap-and-trade. I'm just claiming that in the analysis it's biggest flaw was missed entirely.

And it's a simple flaw.

Let's say there are two companies, A67 and B99. Company A67 makes widgets. The company has been in business for 50 years and they produce 10 Million widgets a year at the cost of $10.67 each in an older plant built in 1967. To do this they burn coal for power and produce 100 Tons of carbon per year. And profits are good in the growing widget business.

Now there is company B98, in business for 60 years, they also make widgets. They make a slightly higher quality widgets with newer equipment in a plant they completed in 1998. Their widgets cost $10.98, but they only sell 5 Million a year from stiff competition. To do this they use a combination of wind, solar, and water power, supplemented by natural gas and the local power grid for those calm cloudy days. With these combined (green and expensive) power sources company B98 has a total carbon foot print of only 9 Tons per year. Their profit margin is thin, but the market is growing and hopefully the competition will have trouble keeping up.

What happens after the "Cap" take effect and everybody's carbon foot print is mandated down by 8% from current levels?

(continued...)

Gelinas misses the worst part... (2/2)

Company A67 is now mandated to drop "down" to 92 Tons. No problem. They can reduce some by simply buying cleaner coal. They can reduce more by tuning and greasing their old equipment. They might be able to reduce the full 8%, or more, just by arranging the work schedule to run at higher capacity on a 24 hour schedule in the winter and shutting down for 1 month in the summer. This is not to mention upgrading some of their really old equipment as it breaks. With a little effort they might be able to squeeze 15% or even 20% from their carbon foot print. They could even find themselves with a 10 Ton carbon surplus at the end of the year. Nice.

And what about company B98? They are also mandated to drop their carbon foot print by 8%, or their case, 0.72 of a Ton. That's not so much, but How? They are already running "clean". Perhaps they could cut down use of natural gas by simply closing the plant on calm cloudy days. Or, they could buy carbon offsets from A67.

Now THAT is stupid.

Company A67 is going to get "subsidized" by B98, so now they can sell an even cheaper widget. Company A67 will be rewarded for being lazy, and company B98 may be driven out of business for having built a cleaner more efficient plant.

Cap-and-Trade is the REVERSE of the American way. It rewards laziness and mediocrity while potentially punishing planning and ingenuity.

The final suggestion was the best... Tax the FUEL. The dirtier the fuel, the higher the tax. Simple.

Then, if you really want to be magnanimous, use part of the revenue to stock a fund to help companies upgrade, but only with supplementary grants.

More misinformation Part 1
Kroneborge asks:

"Why do people waste so much time arguing whether they are certain global warming is occurring? I would think even the biggest skeptic or believer would have to admit there was the possibility that they could be wrong."

Here's why.

Gelinas starts her sixth paragraph thus:

"But what if a factory can’t reduce its emissions? Maybe it was pretty efficient already, and its customer orders are up, to boot. That’s where the “trade” part of cap and trade comes in. Suppose that a power plant elsewhere does have room to cut energy waste—say, by replacing its 30-year-old generator with a cleaner model."

Now, I want Kroneborge (or someone else) to tell me what a "cleaner model" has to do with CO2. Is Gelinas not slipping into the reflexive enviro habit of equating C)2 with pollution? Does she not understand that there is a limit to how much energy you can produce by burning one pound of fossil fuel, and that reducing CO2 output means reducing energy output, which means reducing consumption, which means not only reducing growth, but actually forcing shrinkage in the economy, which means either a lower standard of living, fewer people, or both?

And for what? A political myth that is propogated by people who couldn't understand the science that forms the basis of anthropogenic global warming THEORY if their lives depended on it.

See Part 2 for conclusion




More misinformation Part 2
That's why we get arguments and propositions based on "Newt Gingrich has now admitted that global-warming is caused by human-produced greenhouse gas..." or "Al Gore ... now has an Oscar for the global-warming documentary An Inconvenient Truth."

What do Al Gore or Newt Gingrich know about science? And SteveL, what makes you think AGW is Newt's to "admit"? He doesn't get to "admit" it on my behalf. This might come as a shock to liberals and enviros, but just because one conservative "admits" something it doesn't even make it necessarily true, let alone something that the rest of us agree with but just refuse to say so.

Cont'd

The reason, Kroneborge, that we won't follow Al Gore on his wild goose chase is because we have seen too many of these scams and hysterical 'end-of-the-world' warnings before.

We've heard about impending global cooling, nuclear winter, nuclear holocaust, DDT, AIDS, the 'death' of the oceans in ten years (predicted by enviro Ted Danson 20 years ago). We have also heard that "we'll have to be satisfied with 'less' because our standard of living has peaked and it just isn't going to get any higher (1965), that "yesterday was the day of the US and tomorrow is the day of the Soviet Union (1980), and if you cut taxes you're going to have to find some other way to 'pay' for it" (1961 when tax cuts were proposed by Kennedy, 1981 whenthey were proposed by Reagan, and 2001 when they were proposed by Bush). Each time taxes were cut revenue to the treasury INCREASED.

We oppose this scam because it's a scam, and those of us who see through the scam resent being told we must listen and obeys fools who don't see through it.

What a good article!
Maybe global warning deniers ought to consider the possibility that if GW Bush and National Review both acknowledge that it is real, well maybe, IT IS REAL!!! Yes, it is happening. Trends of temperatures around the world are increasing. Even the free market bibile, the Wall Street Journal, has shown these trends.

People who deny that it is happening are either stupid or brainwashed. Look at any scientific journal. Read Newsweek. It is all there!

Yeah, I know. Rush says there is no evidence that it is real or man made. Yeah, right. And cigarettes don't cause cancer either.

Opticontrarian
No, the best solution is do NOTHING and put the promoters of this scam in JAIL.

SteveL
Taxes are supposed to raise revenue for the government. They are not supposed to be used to dictate behavior.

If they were, we would have TAXED your ridiculous comments to prevent them from polluting this board.


Tax the FUEL
Yes tax the FUEL.

Chemistry is what chemistry is.

Any carbon output is defined by the fuel input.

If you burn a given amount of coal, or oil, or gas, the carbon output in CO+CO2+Soot is defined by the chemistry of the fuel. The processing plant has NOTHING to do with it.

Of course different processes will extract more "useful" power from a given amount of the same fuel, but then those will need less fuel.

Skip bureaucratic stupidities of "carbon output".

Think for yourself
I don't know anyone who denies the last Ice Age is ended and our Earth is still warming.

I do deny that mankind is responsible for the warming.

Anyone who does think their SUV is responsible for the Earth going through the same warming/cooling cycle it has been going through for the last 4 billion years is very gullible.

Mankind does not change the seasons or the climate.

Any AGW believer who wants to is free to drive his SUV upon the AGW stone sacrificial alter.

If the Libs believe so strongly in AGW then let THEM pay the Carbon Tax and excuse non-believers!
It is their idea, they want it, they can pay for it.

Al Gore's BTU tax...
Now here is another highly intelligent suggestion. A BTU tax.

Hmmm.... There is Jet Fuel, with a very high concentration of potential energy (BTU) per unit weight. Which is why it is used in Jets.

And there is coal with a very low concentration of potential energy per unit weight. Which is why it is a ground based fuel.

Now if one where to burn 1-Pound of Jet Fuel, and 1-Pound of coal, guess which would have the higher BTU output? Buy a very large margin it would be Jet Fuel. And guess which would have the higher carbon output? Buy a very large margin it would be coal.

What moron would even think (or rather, not think) of a BTU tax?

ZERO
That's how much observed evidence exists that CO2 causes global warming.

The "deniers" are going to be influenced by 10 grand?? That lie has been debunked over and over. They offered 10 grand for papers on global warming which is standard practice. They NEVER indicated what they papers should say.

It's hilarious that they call "deniers" well-funded. Consider a few million versus BILLIONS in government funds and grants every year. AGW is a multi-BILLION dollar industry. Only a fool could not see that and if there is no AGW, then NO billions! That's why they get so ANGRY at the "deniers"....they don't want to be exposed. It's totally UNscientific. Science DEMANDS skepticism and welcomes dissent. Only political scams crush scientific dissent.

I will also bet that the AGW'ers haven't read any of the so-called "deniers" material. They just blindly accept what the MSM throws at them. Pitiful! It's impossible for any logical open-minded person to study the AGW subject and come away believing in the scam. There just isn't any evidence, but there is tons of evidence to the contrary.

Did you know that the IPCC folks have admitted that their work is flawed??? The very people who started this craze admit they have flawed data. And people just keep believing...because they have to have their "cause" of the moment.

How will they spin it, yet again, when the cooling cycle starts? If one degree over a hundred years is supposed to wreak havoc, why hasn't the 90 degree change, experienced between seasons?

Now with the new temperature data
coming in, it appears the warmest years were in the 1930s...when there were NO SUVs to pollute the atmosphere. Now how is Algore going to get all those carbon offset $$$$$ if people begin to believe this??????

I do NOT believe the columnist's figures re: those who believe human-caused GW is a fact. I think just the opposite, that the majority of people are coming to the conclusion Mr. AG is full of hot air!

CO2 and AGW
I'm sitting in an office, there are lots of us here during the day. Is CO2 causing Global Warming? Do I care?

Frankly no (although it would wreck the ski season).

However, i do notice that with more people around, the CO2 level is higher because i start to nod-off.

So too much of this gas is not a good thing. Particularly with the number of trees to get rid of it declining.

In all things there needs to be a balance. The money spent over time must balance with the money that was received. So too, the CO2 added must balance with the CO2 removed.

If there is no balance, there WILL be change.

The world may warm, the world may cool, or we may just nod-off more often.

The point is, i don't think anybody *really* knows what that change will be.

And it is completely anti conservative to run off and do something that will cause a change without understanding, and preparing for, that change.

golfer
You just turned my thoughts toward the number of industries investing BIG$ in this AGW scam.

The Auto industry is busy making cars that defy common sense.
Just packing those batteries around wastes energy.
There is an energy loss in changing mechanical energy to electrical.
There is an energy loss changing electrical energy to chemical energy to store in a battery.
There is an energy loss changing chemical energy back to electrical
There is a loss changing electrical back to mechanical to drive the car.

Anyone who doubts that it costs money to transport weight should put a sandbag or any heavy object in their trunk and see what it does to gas mileage.

The entire Auto Industry, foreign & domestic has invested BIG$ in this AGW scam and they are not likely to fold their cards and take the loss.

wiseone, myopine, vic et al
A SCAM INDEED!

And presenting such unfounded information as hard and true "facts" is a slap in the face to the thinking person.

Guess all these scientists who have come forth to say GW is "bunk" are not to be recognized by the "believers"

Indeed, if the U.N. says it is so, it is suspect!

Sure, we can all do better as stewards of the earth in our daily lives - but we didn't "cause" the climate change.

I would really like to know what all of these well-informed green-police have decided they are going to do when the hybrid batteries and fluorescent bulbs have died and must be discarded - what landfill is going to accept them???

The "Tax the fuel" idea
If you conceed that "something MUST be done!" the the tax the fuel idea sounds like a possibility, but also offer a credit for emissions less than the national average for that fuel type. Companies who are already fairly clean will not be as hard hit by the tax and the dirty ones will be encouraged to clean up.

MyOpine
Well, that's pretty stupid. I don't believe in the Iraq War, No Child Left Behind, or the War on Drugs, so decrease my taxes accordingly.

And any pea brain who has studied chemistry knows that certain gases trap heat more than others. It has been experimented on an proven. To say that man-made gasses are trapping heat is not a far stretch.

Of course if you are dead set against believing in something because others who also don't believe are manly and sexy, there is no blatant fact that would ever convince you, so be it.

Think for yourself
RE: Blatant FACT!
The CO2 increase occurs THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER THE WARMING!

To be more exact;
The warming CAUSES the increase in CO2.
ALMOST ALL the increased CO2 comes from the oceans as a result of the warming.

As to which of us is stupid;
Our opinions differ in that regard.

CO2, human-caused climate change, etc. P
The entire theory that humans are causing climate change is based on human production of CO2.

Temperature changes precede changes in CO2 levels. By 200 to 800 years. Check the data for the last 10 million years or so. Saying it isn’t so won’t change the data.

But, lets ignore that reality for a while and look at greenhouse gases. Atmospheric CO2 does reflect specific wavelengths fairly well (and if you want, you can prove it experimentally). But its affect on climate depends on where in the atmosphere it is. You see, it reflects heat coming from any direction equally well. CO2 in the upper atmosphere cools the planet by reflecting heat from the sun more than heat from the planets surface. If its in the lower atmosphere, the reverse is true. Maybe the politicians should legislate really, really tall smokestacks! That makes as much sense as any of their other plans.

We’ll continue to ignore the fact that CO2 doesn’t drive climate change for a few more minutes. The most important greenhouse gas is water vapor, which makes up between 90% and 94% of all greenhouse gases. It varies from minute to minute and from place to place, so its impossible to get a precise figure. About 2% is methane and a number of vary minor gases. About 4% is CO2. Nearly all of that comes from natural sources. Humans contribute, at most, a tiny fraction of a percent of all atmospheric CO2, which is only 4% of all greenhouse gases. If you really want to reduce greenhouse gases, you should concentrate on water vapor. Cover rivers, lakes, forests, etc with plastic film! To save the environment, of course.


The problem with debating this topic
is that most of the AGW apologists proceed from multiple false assumptions. Note one very ignorant person above said:

"Probably global warming is real, but it’s possible it’s not. Either way it’s a smart move to take common sense measures to reduce the risk."

First false assumption:

Global warming is a risk. It is demonstrably NOT a risk. In fact in the past, when the earth was warmer than it is today, civilization thrived. Grapes were grown in vineyards of Scotland, the Vikings colonized Greenland. In brief, if we COULD warm the planet through some manmade mechanism, it would be a GOOD THING.

Second false assumption:

C02 causes warming. In fact, there is ZERO evidence of this. What we do have evidence of is that as the oceans warm (caused by Mr. Sun) then C02 is released into the atmosphere.

Third false assumption:

C02 is a pollutant. As was mentioned earlier, libs like to conflate pollutants (especially particulate pollutants like soot) with C02, which is a gas required on this planet for LIFE! LA has higher ozone and particulates (mainly dust) in the lower atmosphere but there is no way to notice elevated C02 in LA's air. C02 is a pollutant like oxygen and nitrogen are pollutants.

Fourth false assumption:

The earth will continue warming unless we do something to stop it. It is, in fact, quite possible that we are at the apex of a warming cycle and that the earth will begin cooling. This would be a BAD THING.

My question for the imbecile who said warming was a "risk" should consider the much larger risk of global cooling. A cooler earth would be catastrophic for fruit and produce producing nations. It would drive people out of currently habitable areas into smaller zones of the planet. When we start cooling, are the enviroloons going to demand we drive more or build more coal fired power plants?

Stan, stealing my thunder
Excellent points Stan, I wish I had made them first! The most important thing you bring up us that C02 is the RESULT of warming. That one, single fact blows holes a mile wide in the cap and trade nonsense. It also debunks EVERYTHING that Al Gore has asserted (and I think he knows it given how fast he skips past the C02/Warming corollary chart in his fictional movie, An Inconvenient Truth).

There are so many things demonstrably and transparently wrong with this whole AGW ploy it is tragic:

1. There is ZERO evidence that man causes global warming.
2. Global warming has not been shown to be a negative for the planet.
3. Temperature measurement data before 1950 is highly inaccurate and back farther into the past is guesswork of monumental proportions.
4. NASA and other organizations responsible for collecting CURRENT temperature data have been caught cooking the books. I see NASA as the scientific world's Enron.
5. The AGW industry is monetarily GIGANTIC. Everyone wants a piece of this pie from anonymous researchers (who couldn't get a dime for a grant until they figured out how to connect their research with AGW) to multi-national corporations who have learned how to use enviro-scares to their benefit, to politicians who see more power ceded to them by playing up the Chicken Little AGW scheme.

AGW is like a bad prank that somebody came up with thinking that "nobody is that stupid to buy into it" only to find out that huge numbers of people are sheep and will buy into anything. I guess P.T. Barnum was right after all.

Beeblebrox
Sure global warming would be great except for a couple inconvenient facts.
1. 1/6 of the world’s population water is snow or glacier fed. For example California, Colorado, Arizona etc. Warming temperatures causes the snow to melt sooner causing lack of water later in the year.
2. Large parts of the population live on the coast so possible sea level rises would cause a lot of people to be displaced.
3. Increased hurricane strength is making parts of the country basically uninsurable and in the future possibly unlivable.
4. Longer fire season results in more/bigger fires.
5. Extinction of various species that thrive in cold climates.

Of course if none of these things concern you then sure a warmer climate WILL be a good thing. I’ve taken classes as well as reading the research for myself. Plus I’ve applied the common sense test to everything. Basically does this make sense. Does it make sense to replace a non renewable dirty energy source with a clean renewable one? Yes. Does it make sense to have cleaner air and water? Yes. And does it make sense to protect against the risk that all those pesky scientists are right? Again yes.

Beeblebrox
Also note that I have not referred to anyone as an idiot etc for having a different opinion than me. I guess though that if you don’t want to actually debate something that name calling will work instead.

Ice caps melting - a question
Can someone please answer this - an honest question. My understanding is that the ice caps are floating on water. For example, submarines have travelled under the ice cap. So, assuming that is true, based on archemides buoyancy principle, if all the ice should melt, the level of the ocean shouldn't change?

As a small experiment, I put a bunch of ice cubes in water, make sure they were floating, and marked the line. A few hours later all the ice was gone, and the water mark was right on the line - never moved.

How is this different with the caps?

Kroneborge
writes:

"Warming temperatures causes the snow to melt sooner causing lack of water later in the year."

A one degree C increase in temperature in 100 years does not affect snow melt in the least.

"2. Large parts of the population live on the coast so possible sea level rises would cause a lot of people to be displaced."

There has been no measureable increase in sea levels since this AGW scare was first invented. What is your basis upon which you think that sea levels would rise with an increase of a point or two in the temperature? Even if they did, displaced people is not the end of the world.

"3. Increased hurricane strength is making parts of the country basically uninsurable and in the future possibly unlivable."

Moderating climates tend to calm atmospheric disturbances. You will note that last year we have virtually no Hurricanes despite the AGW scare mongering. Look back at the history of hurricanes and you will find no correlation between their occurrence and global warming or cooling trends.

"4. Longer fire season results in more/bigger fires."

Again, what do you think that a degree increase in 100 years does to the "fire season"? We have bigger fires these days because of enviromentalist policies that prevent forests from burning naturally than we would ever have from a minor increase in temperature.

"5. Extinction of various species that thrive in cold climates."

They can move to where it is cold. They always have, meanwhile species that thrive in temperate climates will thrive.

Bottom line, since the minor amount of warming we are experiencing is naturally occurring, it is hard to see how we could keep that extra degree of warming from happening, even if we wanted to.


One other thing, Kroneborge:
I never called you an idiot, only ignorant. Now that you have been informed by me and others here, you are no longer classified as ignorant so I won't call you that any longer.

If you continued to repeat the Al Gore talking points after having been fully informed only then would you move to the category of "idiot". ;-)

Just remember this one fact: C02 increases FOLLOW warming trends. There is nothing else you need to know to realize that AGW is a hoax.


well
Well, I actually didn’t get my talking points from Gore, lol. But I have taken a number of environmental science courses over the years at UCSB (while I was studying economics). I based my information on stuff I learned there, actually reading the majority of the IPCC”s reports, and other additional research on my own. And while it is true that if warming increases it will further increase the CO2 level in the atmosphere the majority of the increase so far has been man made.
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