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Wednesday, March 25, 2009
Nathan Tabor :: Townhall.com Columnist
Real Christianity for Obama?
by Nathan Tabor
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President Barack Obama has gotten a lot of mileage out of his appeals to people of faith. He portrays himself as one of them, a convert who found Jesus and a new purpose for living through community organizing in Chicago.

His attempts to portray the audacity of hope, however, have been stymied by the manner in which he has responded to the nation’s economic crisis.

He may call it “investment,” but his stimulus package represents old-fashioned government spending. Our children will be left with the legacy of his spendthrift ways.

However, to hear Obama tell it, you would think that he was saving our nation’s poor by running up deficits. Don’t worry about the final bill, he’s telling us—let’s live for today.

He may even try to wrap his spending package in the guise of Christian charity.

I would suggest that the President would benefit by reading the writings of a true Christian leader, Dr. Adrian Rogers. Rogers, who died in 2005, has been called one of the greatest preachers of the 20th century. A pastor for 32 years at Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee, Rogers saw his congregation grow to more than 29,000 members.

Interestingly enough, Rogers personally prayed with five Presidents. Before his death, he spent time with President George W. Bush at the White House on the day known as National Day of Prayer. He was also known for his leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention, the world’s largest Protestant denomination.

In fact, Bush’s father, former President George H. W. Bush, once said, “There are many who presume to speak for the evangelical movements, but surely Dr. Rogers was one of the handfuls who truly represented them. He was a great man with a lot of influence and a lot of wisdom.”

Evidence of that wisdom is a Rogers’s quote that has been circulating through cyberspace. Apparently, he said it in 1984. On January 14, 2009, Representative Steve King of Iowa posted the quote to the Congressional Record. I think the quote speaks for itself:

“Friend, you cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. And what one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving it. The government can’t give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody.

“And when half of the people get the idea they don’t have to work because the other half’s going to take care of them, and when the other half get the idea it does no good to work because somebody’s going to get what I work for. That, dear friend, is about the end of any nation.

I hope President Obama is listening.

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Nathan Tabor organizes and educates Christians on their role in Politics.
 
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Great Guy!
Yep, Adrian Rogers was a great guy and one heck of a Christian.

Need proof? How about this little gem:

"I believe slavery is a much maligned institution; if we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess."

Historical Perspective...
When the early colonists realized that when only some of the people did all of the work and all of the people benefited from their activities, the whole colony suffered. That's when they went back to the Biblical principle of "Those who do not work, do not eat." Sure there are times when mercy and grace must come into play, the Bible mandates how to handle those times. To take from someone in the name of 'caring for our neighbor' without thought for what it took to gain it, is 'STEALING.' The Bible talks about that too.

Warped Christian views
We know that it was OK for conservatives to commit $1 trillion of taxpayer money in the cause of an unprovoked invasion based on false witness. But now that Obama wants to spend money on educating children, reducing conflict by moving to alternative energy sources, and reducing conflict by reversing global warming, that's unChristian and living "for today."

Obama wants to increase education spending and all of a sudden that's encouraging people not to work?

As for "taking from the people who work", here's the part of the Bible conservatives just don't get.

Deuteronomy 8:17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." 18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

Cam
Get lost would you. I am getting so sick of clowns like you even being around. I have to put up with enough brainless trash everytime I turn on the national news or pick up a newspaper. You are a brainless moron. Obama wants to spend money on educating children ( INDOCTRINATING). Reducing conflict by moving to alternative energy sources. YOU are complete idiot. Where do morons like you come from. Oh Yea CALIFORNIA what do I expect. And please don't try to quote the bible. You are about as christian as Bin Laden. I don't care how much acorn is paying you just drop dead.

r
Deep breath!

I'll agree that we certainly don't share the same definition of Christianity. I guess it's good for you that there are places like TH with people who do.

john-ny 3/16
typical...

emotionally unstable liberal obama goon quoting an emotionally unstable liberal quack as verifiable fact..

The quote is, as usual from liberals, a manufatured lie.

Your quote is from Cecil Sherman, an emotionally imbalanced nut who "compared the SBC's conservative resurgence to the Holocaust".

Yeah..he's sane.
Not at all prone to hyperbole, melodrama, or plain ol' makin stuff up.

Next time, don't use a moribund pervert as a source.

In other words, next time don't bring a knife to a gun fight, junior.

hey Cam
It wasn't a trillion dollars. Didn't you read the part of the Bible concerning lying?

If you take ALL military spending for the last 6 years then yes it might approach a trillion, but what would you propose? CLOSE the US Military? Idiotic.

And none of your Bible passages mentions using Ceasar to go and steal your neighbors land and give some to you(or anyone else).

Cam
The reason we spent 1 trillion on war is because the same ignorant A## People who are in Congress today didnt even read the INTEL Report before their stupid A##ES voted to give Bush the authority to go to WAR. Libs are just are just as much to blame for what Bush did. What was their saying I VOTED FOR IT BEFORE I VOTED AGAINST it. Wow that sounds about as credible as CLINTON saying I SMOKED IT BUT DIDNT ENHALE or
I DIDNT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMEN BUT I DID IT BECUASE I COULD.

It seems to me people in Conmgress are doing the same thing to this country today by not even READING most of these programs that OBAMA is pushing on America before voting on it. Its like the GOD all Mighty himself has spoken when Obama is reading from his TELEPROMPTOR,. my Lord we bashed Bush for not being able to talk and now we have a President who has to have something telling him what to say. Man up Mr President it would be nice for you to talk to the American people without having a Machine tell you what to say. What Barney Franks hasnt taught you how to SPIT IT OUT YET..



workers?
Considering that much of the stimulus money is going to banks, insurance companies, etc., who's doing the receiving and who's doing the giving?

slavery is a much maligned institution
This comment originates from an essay by Cecil Sherman, former head of the CBF. Sherman asked Rogers the question about slavery in the context of their work together on the Peace Committee. But the question he asked was about slavery in the Bible, not the American institution of racial subservience. Sherman did not take Rogers' comment to refer to the American institution of Southern injustice.

The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

from the bible:

If you get a Hebrew servant for money, he is to be your servant for six years, and in the seventh year you are to let him go free without payment.

The first slaves in American colonies were white people (indentured servants). Some were trying to pay off their debts; some were desperate for employment.

One half to two thirds of all immigrants to Colonial America arrived as indentured servants.

At that time England had debtors prisons.

I don't see Letterman leading every
night with pres. speeches and showing the big O ah'ing and er'ing.

Bush also didn't try to start quarrels with radio hosts and threaten private citizens with physical violence and confiscatory taxation for receiving payments the so-called unity pres. was all too well aware of. LIAR.

O doesn't want unity or bipartisanship or faith-based actions or anything that he says. ALL OF HIS LIFE HIS ACTIONS AND FRIENDS HAVE SHOWN HE IS A RADICALIZED LEFTIST WITH MESSIANIC ASPIRATIONS TO DESTROY THE US IN FAVOR OF SOME FAILED CLONE OF SWEDEN.

I hope the Reps. and cons. who sat home on election day or voted Bob Barr or wrote in for Ron Paul are happy with the *message* they sent.

They and everyone else is about to get rolled. The trolls here and other useful idiots will be the first over the side.

hey David
I choose my words carefully. I said commit the US to $1 trillion. Estimates of the total costs of the invasion/occupation easily exceed $1 trillion. If you don't like the government "stealing" from you, move to Somalia. There is no government to steal from you there.

gatorbait - This is just like the bank meltdown. Conservatives accuse Democrats of being wimps for over-regulating financial institutions/not removing WMD. And then when we get disaster, you say we're equally to blame.

Watch the documentary Why We Fight. See the CIA staffers explain how they were intimidated into writing false intelligence reports. Democrats voted for an invasion based on lies generated by Republicans.

What politician doesn't use telelprompters for speaches today? The reason Obama is president today and McCain isn't is because Obama is better at intelligently answering questions. The reason Obama will give infinitely more press conferences than the guy you voted for twice is because he is better at intelligently answering questions.

Cam =- "Estimates of the total costs of
the invasion/occupation easily exceed $1 trillion. If you don't like the government "stealing" from you, move to Somalia. There is no government to steal from you there."

Speaking of Somalia, why did Clinton insert our military into Somalia in the first place? Was it because the government there (which you say does not exist) was confiscating the food donated by Americans for starvation relief? Is 'confiscating' the same as 'stealing'? And if so, were they (in-that non-existent government) stealing from the USA or from the starving people in their ouwn country?

Sometimes I wonder why I bother to respond to idiots that have NO knowledge of history.

false intelligence reports?
{Journalist Bob Woodward calls his new book, “Plan of Attack,” the first detailed, behind-the-scenes account of how and why the president decided to wage war in Iraq.

Dec. 21, 2002, Woodward says CIA Director George Tenet brought his deputy, John McLaughlin, to the oval office to show the president and the vice president their best evidence that Saddam really had weapons of mass destruction.

In his book, Woodward writes: "The presentation was a flop. The photos were not gripping. The intercepts were less than compelling. And then George Bush turns to George Tenet and says, 'This is the best we've got?'"

Says Woodward: “George Tenet's sitting on the couch, stands up, and says, ‘Don't worry, it's a slam dunk case.’" And the president challenges him again and Tenet says, ‘The case, it's a slam dunk.’ ...I asked the president about this and he said it was very important to have the CIA director – ‘Slam-dunk is as I interpreted is a sure thing, guaranteed. No possibility it won't go through the hoop.’ Others present, Cheney, very impressed.”

What did Woodward think of Tenet’s statement? “It’s a mistake,” he says. “Now the significance of that mistake - that was the key rationale for war.” It was just two weeks later when the president decided to go to war. }

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612 067.shtml

Who appointed Tenet?

Bill Clinton

If O
were half as intelligent as the trolls presume,
he would have an appreciation for this country, it's history and IT'S CONSTITUTION! Instead he opines it's "flawed" with "negative rights."
We don't know if he is all that smart, no one's seen his college transcripts; no one has seen his birth certificate, passport, Occidental
application etc. What he is a sly, crafty, conniving MARXIST that hates everyone, his father, his mother, his grandparents, this country especially those of the White Race he sees as in the way of his Black Liberation Theology. And many stuck on Stupid WHITES were re sponsible for putting him in power.
The scripture says we will know them by their fruits...in 60 days he's succeeded in having more babies preborn and born tortured and executed in the name of Roe v Wade (the baby killers holy writ); had a reporbate posing as an Episcopal Bishop have the invocation at his
Lincoln Memorial farce prior to the investiture on the 20th of Jan., in stealing trillions of dollars from our posterity; pushing through his porkulus with hidden onerous laws that could never be passed without this monster; now wants to pay back unions, etc. Compare him to Pharoah of Exodus..he could be his twin.
By the way, since this is a Republic, of, for and by the people, aren't the people Caesar?

Eyes
They say the eyes are the window of the soul, look at the above picture..there is a man with
very empty eyes.

Cam
What was the setup last night when every commentator was stating that Obama already had the Questions to be able to practice what to say and he still needed his BIG SCRENN TV to Communicate to the American People.

Democrats voted on the invasion because they didnt want to be considered cowards by their constituets. They could have question the INTEL but they DIDNT.WHY? What did the CIA director(DEM) tell us ITS A SLAM DUNK MR PRESIDENT.

Yea and Democrats voted for Obama on broken promises and LIES. How many LIES has Obama been caught on,
First I will put every program on the internet for at least 5 days for the American people to see before I put it into LAW, LIAR
I will go line by line and eliminate the pork from bills, LIAR

I will not tax anyone that makes less than 250,000, LIAR

I will help Small business, hell doesnt he know that most small business make over 250,000, LIAR

So I take it Americans voted for Obama based on LIES by Democrats.

ALL POLITICIANS ARE LIARS but LIBS hold the record for LIEING to the American people like they lied to Black people about pulling them out of POVERTY if they Voted for them and how long have LIBS been promising Black people that LIE? I would say over 50yrs.

How can LIBS hold a striaght face knowing that they LIED to the Voters of this country. I love how LIBS used the statement that REPS where in the back pockets of the BIG EVIL RICH COMPANYS and then YOU LIBS jump in and KNOWINGLY Gave those BIG EVIL RICH COMPANYS CEOS BONUSES off the backs of tax payers and then doing what to the American People. LIE

LIBS ARE TWO FACED LIARS and should be ashame for LIEING to the American People.

2010 will be LIBS judgement day if we arent a THIRD WORLLD COUNTRY by then

Cam
Not all of us conservatives supported the war in Iraq. I'm not even sure invading Afghanistan was justified as a response to 9/11. I think the money and effort by our troops would have been better spent closing our borders and kicking out suspicious foreigners. But, it did seem to be a deterrant as we haven't been attacked again since.

I personally loathe the concept of nation-building and think we should stay out of other countries' affairs, including giving foreign aid money. Unfortunately, neo-con warmongers had too much influence on Bush and now we are so happy that thousands of our troops died to "bring democracy" to Iraq. NOT.

But, the more important point is that you can't justify Obama's runaway train spending by saying Bush ran up the deficit too. That's like a wife saying to her husband, "You flirted with your secretary, so you can't criticize me for sleeping with every member of the Yankees."

Tea Party
That is a look of a man who knows he has made promises to the American people that he wont be able to accomplish as long as Nancy Stalin and Harry Hitler run this country. He is indebted to them for the LIES they made up to making him POTUS. If anyone doesnt think they run this country look what happened after DEMS took control of CONGRESS in 06. A COMPLETE DOWNFALL OF OUR COUNTRY while they were trying to presecute Sports players for Steroid use and fighting the President over funding the TROOPS they claimed so much to support that they wanted them to RETREAT and SURRENDER. What American would ever want our soldiers to LOSE anything, wait remember THE SURGE HAS FAILED. Hell they were calling the Commander in Iraq
GEN BETREYUS before they even heard a word he had to say.

What a shame we put these PUKES in controil of our country. UN PATRIATIC I say so

Remember Hillery on the floor of Congress screamning and I quote. I am sick and tired of everytime someone questions the actions of this President you are Considered UN PATRIATIC .

Well Hillery isnt that the situation REPS are in now.
We cannot criticise the POTUS without someone claiming the SAME, only difference is they throw in the RACIST CARD now that we did what the World said we wouldnt do because AMERICANS are to RACIST. WE ELECTED A BLACK PRESIDENT, then Wallah ,White Guilt kicked in and HERES THE ALMIGHTY ONE(OBAMA).


Christianity?
I am about tired of seeing Obama's name in conjunction with Christianity. One of his documents reveals his religion to be Islam and the only 'church' that he went to was that of Jeremiah Wright who is not likely a Christian since the ravings of a bigoted racist hardly qualify as Christian teaching. I think we had better accept that this man may be totally irreligious, so let's not confuse political pandering for religion.

A CHRISTIAN Democrat?! PUHLEEEEEEEZE!
Obama is about as serious about his Christianity as Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and Ted Kennedy are about their Catholicism, or Joe Lieberman is about Old Testament Judaism.

The Democratic Party effectively has a sign on its entrance: "Check any belief you may have that the Bible is the Word of God at the door".

I see no evidence that the tenets of the Bible inform Barack Obama's life - and certainly at the very least, his votes. ANYONE who could POSSIBLY vote against such a monstrosity as the Born Alive Infant Protection Act has no use for the Bible. His decisions since becoming president are totally in lockstep with NARAL's doctrine - not the Bible's. And until now, I don't recall a previous president proposing to limit the tax deductibility of church contributions, as Obama now wants to do with higher-income taxpayers.

And I'm inclined to seriously question, like KATZ in TX, whether Obama's former pastor, Jeremiah Wright, is really a Christian.

Remember, Obama has said he would stand with Muslims.

The "D" tag after the name of a member of the national or any state legislature has now come to stand for "desensitized spiritually".


deficits and Cam
Oh yeah, Obama supporters:

The total deficits for the last 3 years of Bush total about 800 billion dollars. Obamas first budget ALONE is twice that.

As far as Obamas intelligence:
Here he is with the teleprompter off:http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dburge/2009/03/23/hey-barack/

- In response to a carved pen holder from the sister ship of the HMS Resolute he gave the British Prime Minister 25 DVDs (which don't work in the UK).

- He sent a letter to Jacques Chirac (who has been out of office for 2 years) pledging support.

Here is a good list:
http://minx.cc/?post=284732

He is an empty suit. Its time to own up: you were played like a fiddle.

Fads and slogans don't make good leaders.

standshisground
I dont recall any POTUS limit the tax deductability of Church Donations.

I dont get that one either because churches depend on donations to survive. Maybe we are going to BAIL OUT and Control Religions NEXT. I wouldnt put it pass the LIBS in Congress. If they control the churches they control RELIGION and will soon be telling Americans who they can or cant worship. Maybe REV WRight will be appointed CHURCH CSAR for God knows we are all members of the KKK of America,. and need allot of help before the CHickens come home to ROOST

Cam
' You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.'

Deuteronomy 8:17

This scripture is for you to follow, not the government. If the government adopts them it's called a theocracy.

'If you don't work you don't eat.'

Obama says Jesus is Wrong - part 1

BY CATHLEEN FALSANI Sun-Times Columnist, 2004
all quotes are from Barack Obama

"I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people. That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and there's an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived."

"So, I have a deep faith," Obama continues. "I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people."

---------------------------------------------------------
Cathleen Falsani comments:
It's perhaps an unlikely theological position for someone who places his faith squarely at the feet of Jesus to take, saying essentially that all people of faith -- Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone -- know the same God.
---------------------------------------------------------

"It wasn't an epiphany," he says of that public profession of faith. "It was much more of a gradual process for me. I know there are some people who fall out. Which is wonderful. God bless them.... I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me."

"It's not formal, me getting on my knees," he says. "I think I have an ongoing conversation with God.... I'm constantly asking myself questions about what I'm doing, why I am doing it."


Obama says Jesus is Wrong - part 2

"The difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and proselytize. There's the belief, certainly in some quarters, that if people haven't embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior, they're going to hell."

"I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die," Obama said. "When I tuck in my daughters at night, and I feel like I've been a good father to them, and I see in them that I am transferring values that I got from my mother and that they're kind people and that they're honest people, and they're curious people, that's a little piece of heaven."

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except by me."

Barack Obama says Jesus was wrong, but claims he still is a Christian.

The Arrogance of Barack Obama is so great, that he even corrects Jesus Christ.

Obama's Faith
Barack Obama is no Christian in any Biblical sense of the word. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a deceiver, and an anti-christ.

I have always assumed
That Obama's beliefs were somewhat similar to Jeremiah Wright's. Essentially, Wright is a revisionist historian who is also a bigot (garlic-nosed Italians).

gatorbait
By the way, I'll make a prediction: if Obama's tax proposal gets passed and secular organizations like United Way or art museums start feeling a financial pinch of reduced donations from wealthy donors and start screaming bloody murder about it, the Obama Administration will quietly make exceptions in that tax proposal for secular organizations - and leave the restrictions on deductibility of contributions for churches in place.

But I will at least say this about Obama: at least he's doing this overtly. I, and many other conservatives, have long been waiting for this day, when the Democrats would start taking aim at the tax deductibility of church contributions. Admittedly, for right now it's only for higher-income taxpayers (if this tax proposal becomes law, that is), but once the priniciple has been enshrined in law, this will be the foot in the door that the Democrats need to eliminate deductibility of church contributions for EVERYONE. But to be honest, I expected it to happen WITHOUT a vote: through an edict of unelected judges. At least Obama is doing it in a way that he cannot hide behind others' skirts regarding responsibility for this action.

Although not ALL Christians think this is necessarily a BAD thing: once the government has eliminated the tax deductibility of church contributions, the government will have no more strings to manipulate churches with, short of flat-out shutting them down. And therefore the church will be have that much more freedom to preach its message REGARDLESS of what the government thinks: this site's own Doug Giles has been a proponent of this philosophy.

If the government ever tried to control what MY pastor could or could not say from his pulpit, I would hope that my church would go underground; we could meet in many different people's homes on Sunday morning, with the sermon for the morning provided to each church by videotape or by some live feed from somewhere.

standshisground
I prey and hope you are right becuase churches do allot of good things for the needy and it would be a shame if Government got involved in Religion. For God only knows LIBS preach the seperation of church and state to us daily and it would be shameful for us to have to go underground

later everyone
as a small business owner I have to hit the sack early to go make some money for Obama to tax me to death so he can spread the wealth

Standshisground et al

Barack Obama in his 46 page 'Change for America', says he will expand hate crime speech and hate speech.

Religious leaders, whether they have contributions taxed or not will, come under scrutiny.

'Hare Speech' is a term that can be defined and re-defined at will.

The Barack Obama Administration has already re-defined several terms.

Islamic terrorist attacks are now called "Man Made Disasters" and so on.

Anyone describing Homosexuality as 'Perversion' or 'Aberrant Behavior' could in the future be charged and jailed as 'Hate Speech'.

My personal opinion is that the days of 'Free Religious speech' - is over - whether tax deductible contributions stands or not.

This is already happening in Canada and the UK.

An evangelist was denied entry into the UK, because he preached that Islam is a cult.

We have tough days ahead!

Good Night all Thinking People

Remember, we are but Soldiers in God's Army - the Battle is the Lord's.

Where are the trolls
who can honestly defend the policies of Obama ans his inept gang?
I see plenty of the childish responses asking "but what about Bush?" but nothing that shows how the socialism and huge government spending being forced on us will improve the economy. Facts and proof only, please.

I am waiting..............................

No Christian
Is pro abortion. Plain and simple.

Political correctness
I am still waiting for the PC elite to let me know if Saint Obambi is a Christian I should hate because he might get too preachy or if he is a Muslim I should embrace because all they do is force you to convert or enslave, torture, and kill you.

Just for the record
"No Christian
Is pro abortion. Plain and simple."

Few people of any faith, or no faith, are "pro abortion." Many Christians, Jews, Muslims, and members of other faith groups, or no faith group, want a woman to have a reproductive choice. That's called "pro-choice" not "pro-abortion."

Jeffrey
I refuse to call pro-abortion people "pro-choice", because these same people darn sure don't seem to want to allow people to be able to exercise choices beyond choosing to have an abortion in any OTHER realm of their lives!

Ardently "pro-choice" people are almost without exception ardent liberals, who seem to be doing their dead-level best to proscribe our ability to make choices in all OTHER areas of our lives. They don't want us to be able to make choices regarding what kinds of foods we can eat (we may opt for foods with too many trans-fats, after all), what kinds of cars we can drive (some of us might choose environmentally-unfriendly SUV's, for crying out loud!), whether we can opt to have a gun or not, who we should be allowed to freely associate with vs. who not, what words we should be able to say publicly (political correctness, you know), etc.

So I will continue to call those who favor "reproductive choice" for what they TRULY are: only pro-ABORTION, NOT pro-CHOICE.

Odd article
The author says these quotes from Dr. Rogers speak for themselves. They don’t speak to me; what do they mean? Who’s legislating freedom? I think the Obama administration is trying to avert an economic collapse, caused by freezing credit markets and collapsing housing prices. If you read the news, you’d know that high income people are losing their jobs, too, not just low income people. Wealthy people are losing their homes, just like poor people. Does the author think that we’re facing a situation where people don’t want to work? If so, that’s incorrect: people can’t find work! Have you seen the unemployment figures lately?

Forget explaining the above quotes, somebody please explain to me the conservative need to find a villain, preferably one who is getting something the conservative isn’t getting. Why are conservatives so fearful of getting hookwinked? And tell me how President Obama isn’t behaving Christ-like when he prepares a safety net for the poor during bad economic times.

Standhis
Live it up, man. Then I’m gonna call Catholics “pedophiles,” and gun owners “murderers.” That sound fair?

And heaven forbid you get stopped from poisoning your God-given arteries with transfats or your God-given lungs with cigarette smoke. How dare somebody try to keep you healthy!

Jeffrey
you're confusing Robin Hood with Jesus Christ.

Robin Hood would steal from the rich and give to the poor.

Jesus advocated charitable giving to help the poor, not wealth redistribution by force.

Try reading the New Testament.

Sol
"Jesus advocated charitable giving to help the poor, not wealth redistribution by force."

Jesus didn't advocate it, He commanded it. Try reading the New Testament. Forced wealth distribution? Sounds sinister! It's not forced if you want to do it, is it? I want my taxes to go toward helping the poor. I expect the government to spend money on the sick. It doesn't spend enough on either of these groups.

Jeffrey
You said, "I’m gonna call Catholics “pedophiles,” and gun owners “murderers.” That sound fair?"

Be my guest. I'm not a Catholic, so it's no skin off my chin WHAT you call Catholics. And by the way, a lot of gun owners' guns have killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.

Your post goes to show how you libs have completely turned the English language on its head. I guess to libs, you don't even have to kill anyone anymore to be called a murderer, or ever have sexually abused a child to be called a pedophile. Of course, when a Ted Kennedy actually DOES kill a woman, libs clam up on that - just like they did on Juanita Broddrick's rape claim against Bill Clinton. And of course, you wouldn't THINK of calling HOMOSEXUALS pedophiles, even though many ACTUALLY ARE, now would you?

The kind of people who want to force me to eat what they tell me I have to eat, or not be able to smoke if I choose to (I've NEVER been a smoker, by the way), or own a gun, or drive a certain model of car, etc. couldn't give a rat's patoot about my health; they're only concerned with controlling me to get some kind of gratification for themselves, and if they discover I won't submit to them, they'd just as soon see me dead (and would likely try to actively bring me to that state), as I'd be no trouble to them anymore. And then I'd be beyond worrying about what certain choices do to my health, huh?

ok
So there exist conservative christians as well as liberal ones, and they push conservatives policies. Is this supposed to be a surprise? The Southern Baptists exist as a separate entity because those liberal norther baptists opposed slavery.

I hope that in trying to help the poor and improve the economy Obama listens more to economists than to religious leaders. On moral issues it would make more sense to listen more to religious leaders than economists. But this idea that one should not help the poor because it will make them lazy is not actually something one finds stressed in the Gospels which has a rather different take on the issue.

Jeffrey
go to bed

jeffy cry baby
You cry baby liberals had better watch how far down that road you really want to go. Because once you start a theocracy (for any excuse) you have to follow through to the end. Bobby Jindal is watching and grinning, he has a lot of demons he'd like to exorcise from the gummit!

A little glance at church history shows you that the church didn't flirt with the system of Caesar until 3 centuries after Christ ascended back to heaven. From that odd couple have arisen a strange progeny: all the authoritarian church-state systems the world has seen since, whether Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant.

No. Charity and all church functions are supposed to be private. Are you even tithing?

command from St. Paul
We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.

9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow.

10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-12

It doesn't sound like he favored welfare checks to those who sit on their hands.

obomber is NOT a true christian
The guy is not a christian if you simply apply God's rules and laws. If you are going to support killing babies and allowing more and more easy abortion laws, you are not a christian. Yes, the one law made by God telling us not to kill the babies, is the one law that trumps obomber calling himself a christian. He can lie to stupid people all day long, but he cannot lie to God. God knows his heart. So it does not matter what I think, God will judge him according to the truth when he moves on.

OBAMA, JESUS AND THE WILL OF GOD
Barack Obama is a Christian and a believer in Jesus. In fact, his success in politics is rooted in the Trinity United Church where he learned from his pastor the secret of mesmerizing audiences (see my "Obama Mahara Ji: the Secret of Obama's Hypnotic Powers").

But the Jesus of Obama's religious imagination is the socialist savior of Liberation Theology not the spiritual savior of faith whose "kingdom is not of this world." In restructuring and socializing our economy to suit his dreams of power and turn America into a socialist city on a hill Obama believes with the conviction of absolute faith that he is doing the work and will of God.

President Infanticide
B. Hussein admitted that he was someone who observes a "Christian tradition." He doesn't believe in the exclusive claims of Jesus Christ. Anyone who doesn't isn't a Christian.

You can believe anything and call yourself a Christian; you can believe anything and call yourself the Easter Bunny, too. There is a God who knows, and Who will separate the wheat from the chaff.

To paraphrase a parable:

"Master, an enemy has come in and spread weeds in our fields. What should we do?"

"Well, it's too late to do anything now. Let the wheat and the weeds grow up together; we'll separate them at the harvest, and throw the weeds in the fire."

Such will be the fate of those who pretend.

National Day of Prayer in May
Let's see if BO signs on to support the National Day of Prayer, organized by Shirley Dobson.

Only if...
If these same criticisms were directed at President Bush when the outrageous Medicaid drug intergenerational wealth redistribution was being considered, then we may have a Republican in the White House right now.

DON'T JUST SIT THERE AND BLAME OBAMA!!!

We're just as bad. Don't you get it yet? COME ON!!!!!

Obama & Lincoln
If Obama admires Lincoln and his Christianity, he apperantly hasn't read real history (it's out there just hard to find) Lincoln's friend and partner William Herndon angrily refuted the New York paper editor Horace Greely when he deified Lincoln's Christianity. If you want to know a person's thoughts and agendas you work closely with them as did Herndon. Herndon said that Lincoln used Christianity only for political purposes and died the Agnostic he really was. Obama is a politician. Ye shall know them by their fruits. You cannot be his judge (God will do that) but you can be a fruit inspector. I think there is a worm in his apple.

the difference jeffery
and the one that escapes the morally vacuous:

When I smoke or eat fatty foods NO ONE dies.

You cannot say that about abortion.


We are pro-choice for the baby.

Hawky
“No. Charity and all church functions are supposed to be private. Are you even tithing?”

I’d love to know what planet you think this is happening on. In the US, churches expect, and get, tax breaks. People “of faith,” work to get laws (“Caesar”) that are conform to their faith. In the US, “Christians” try to get the creation story told in public schools (Caesar’s schools) and/or try to prevent the teaching of evolution. They try to get Ten Commandment monuments placed in Caesar’s courthouses. Etc.

Tell me again how “church functions” are private, ok? If only!

Oh and where is it written that charity is the exclusive province of the church? Did the Bible invent the concept of charity?

No person's judge
We have all been placed upon this earth and given what we have been given to serve God. It is clearly stated that before we were formed in our mother's womb God knew us. We can choose to serve or not serve God after we are born.

No person on earth has the right to judge another. We did not create the person, we are not sin free, we did not pay for the other's salvation. Jesus Christ did that and He will be the judge of all on the appropriate day.

We do have a responsibility however to hold others accountable for their behavior. If we fail to do this not only will the committer of the sin be judged guilty -- but we will also be judged.

There is an interesting artilce on CNSnews related to this. In an interview a Vatican bishop stated that not only will "Catholic" politicians be held accountable for the children lost to abortion if they have supported abortion -- but that those who voted for this politicians knowing full well they supported abortion will also be held accountable.

We have what we have in this country for several reasons. First we have voted for what we have. Second, we have not held our politicians to the Ten Standards God gave us. We are going to be judged.

DavidM
“When I smoke or eat fatty foods NO ONE dies.”

Oh really? You think no one has died of lung cancer or heart disease? You really sticking with that?? Of course, you’ll happily carry on with your bad habits, get sick, and expect society to come up with ways (but don’t use embryonic stem cells to find a cure!) to make you better, and to pay for it, to boot. You don’t care who you hurt, like your family and friends, as you consciously kill yourself with cigarettes and obesity, and other bad habits.

And yet you’ll scream about the “killing of human life” in the form of a dozen or so undifferentiated cells in a woman’s body. See, this is why the whole “sanctity of human life” argument is taken less and less seriously. It’s ok to kill Iraqis, it’s ok for Africans to die of AIDS, even though condoms save lives, it’s ok to kill people found guilty of murder, even though many are found later to be innocent, it’s ok to kill people that, in the gun owner’s opinion, are “threatening.”

But God help us if we destroy fertilized cells in a woman’s body!

Somebody please, show me the scorecard where human life is sacred and where it’s not sacred. I honestly can’t keep track anymore. Maybe life really isn’t so sacred as people like to say it is.

Jeffrey
When did "choice" become the opposite of "life"?

And to think that for all these years I thought "death" was the opposite of "life"!

Pray tell us which dictionary you're using.

(Oh, BTW, you got it wrong again wrt Christian charity, dude. Not even the OT's "tithe" had the force of law. Jesus NEVER commanded charity by force of law. See His story of the Good Samaritan-Luke 10.25ff-for an example of how charity is to be done. Hint: Not ONE gov't bureaucrat was involved)

Excellent point!
“…but that those who voted for this politicians knowing full well they supported abortion will also be held accountable.”

It’s also true that people who support the taking of human life in other endeavors will also have blood on their hands on Judgment Day. I pray for people who voted for George Bush knowing his war of adventure in Iraq was killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children. And his withholding of funding for condoms distribution in Africa to help prevent the spread of AIDS.

Real Christians respect life - God-Given
Obama shows by his actions that he is not Christian. Christians know that the murder of innocent children is forbidden by God. Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

'Nuff said!

AliveinHim
“Jesus NEVER commanded charity by force of law. See His story of the Good Samaritan-Luke 10.25ff-for an example of how charity is to be done. Hint: Not ONE gov't bureaucrat was involved)”

Did Jesus forbid the government from helping people? Doesn’t leveraging the enormous power and resources of the government make sense? I assume you want the government to stop immunizing poor babies, let them die of childhood diseases and the like, because, gosh darn it, charity MUST be kept private. Or provide money to senior citizens to buy food, just let ‘em starve, they’re old and a drain on society anyhow. How DARE President Bush extend drug benefits to the sick!

You know, I think you’ve found a convenient way to ignore the needy groups that Christ told us to take care of. This is an artificial construct, resisting the conduct of charity by the government. Forced?! It’s not forced if you want to do it. I WANT my tax dollars spent on needy groups.

Just one more thing . . .
Across the media and the internet, liberals talk about an "unjust war" and the shame of all the Iraqi citizens who have been killed since the war started.

I wonder why they do not comment on the thousands of Iraqi citizens who were found tortured and buried in mass graves by Saddam Hussein (their own leader) and his corrupt dictatorship.

We can't straighten-out all the world's problems, but is the USA to turn a blind eye to horrors around the world? I'm old enough to remember that it was Saddam Hussein who aggressively attacked Kuwait and precipitated "Desert Storm" (in which my beloved son fought so valiantly).

And I don't care what liberals say about weapons of mass destruction not being there. Torturing thousands of your own citizens and burying them in mass graves IS mass destruction.

Faith in Messiah Never Fueled Obama's
community organizing. Faith in himself
did that.

This is a man who does not love this country,
does not have any deep attachment to it as his
own. He only came as an already adolescent and
then was isolated from it by life away from
the mainland.

He does not have our best interests at heart,
but his own non-American driven agenda - thus
socialism - an already proven failure.

Faith in God has not inspired anything he has
done in his life. Only involved him for a
twenty year steep in a way of speaking that he
has imitated well and much to his advantage.

Jeffrey
Jesus NEVER said a word about Gov't helping people. Read Genesis 3 and Romans 13-the Gov't's task is that of being a sword to avenge criminality. That is how the 'good' that government does is defined. There isn't one word either express or implied in Scripture about its being the duty of government to give children shots, milk or cheese. Humanitarian aid has ALWAYS been a mission of the Church.

FYI, the Catholic Church still sponsors clinics and hospitals for those unable to pay for what they need. Our town has one. Then too there are the Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Jewish hospitals, to say nothing of the LDS, Shriners and other benevolent endeavors.

They do sterling work, without ONE DIME coming from the taxpayer. If you're not happy that all cannot be helped through these means, what on earth makes you think Gov't can do any better, especially when in England the newest, most effective and up-to-date cancer drugs are DENIED solely on the basis of cost by the benevolent NHS, and Sweden has exactly ONE mammography center to serve its entire female population?

Charity, you say? The Bible ALSO makes it clear that those who WILL NOT work, SHALL NOT eat.

You are perfectly free to pick up where I must leave off wrt charity. You are NOT free to confiscate the fruits of MY labor to assuage YOUR conscience. Read your Commandments and their meanings as found in Luther's Catechism. Those regarding coveting and stealing will be most enlightening.

New theocracy…

Obama is the new theocrat; he wants the state to assume the role of benevolence, historically left to the local churches. He thinks that centralized state control is better than local church control. Do we believe that control by elites without integrity is better than the ministers of Jesus Christ?

When is government control a good thing? That’s why the Founders limited the powers of the state. But as Mr. Levin has written, the modern liberals have breeched the Constitutional safeguards against state tyranny. Confiscatory taxation is harmful to charitable giving and benevolence ministries suffer because local church control and accountability is lost.

They like to tell us that church and state are to be separate and that theocracy is bad except when run by the Osama culture.

Some really know Obama
ACCORDING TO THOSE CLOSEST TO
OBAMA HE THINKS HE IS THE MESSIAH...JOE BIDEN SAID OBAMA THINKS EASTER IS ABOUT HIM... AND RAHM EMMANUEL SAID OBAMA WENT TO NEW ORLEANS TO WALK ON WATER..
Biden also said Chaney left Obama's birth certificate in the v.p. desk..Hey maybe the birth certificate can shed some light on his birth.. Virgin birth?????Yeah right!!!
Christians do not say the shahada as did Obama..
The preceeding comment has the real truth about Obama..

Real Christians
don't kill babies.

Please explain, Lynn
“When the early colonists realized that when only some of the people did all of the work and all of the people benefited from their activities, the whole colony suffered. That's when they went back to the Biblical principle of "Those who do not work, do not eat." Sure there are times when mercy and grace must come into play, the Bible mandates how to handle those times. To take from someone in the name of 'caring for our neighbor' without thought for what it took to gain it, is 'STEALING.' The Bible talks about that too.”

Who are all these people who supposedly aren’t working or pulling their fair share of the load? Poor babies in urban areas? Sick senior citizens? Paraplegic Iraqi war vets? Who are you referring to?

Obama/Jeffrey support this :
http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2009/02/searches-sycloria-wi lliams-and-belkis.html

WARNING: this video may cause distress for warm blooded beings.

AliveinHim
Then I can only assume that you want the government to do away with VA hospitals, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, poor baby immunization programs, pre-natal care for poor mothers, public education that permits poor people to go to school, unemployment insurance for the out of work, worker retraining programs, etc. etc. etc. Well?

You’re misinformed: tax dollars ARE used to support some faith and non-profit programs. In fact, the White House and an Office for Faith-based Initiatives. It most definitely is funded by tax dollars, dollars from people of faith and atheists.

It’s funny, Christians love to castigate the government and its efforts to help the needy. But Christians are happy to use the government to get public schools to teach Creationism, or get Ten Commandment monuments in public courthouses. So the precedent has already been established: it’s ok to leverage government for religious aims. So why not leverage government for something Christ cared about, and made crucial for salvation? Plus people can still give to their favorite private charities.

I think you’re letting your politics inform your faith, by the way.

Jeffrey
"I think you’re letting your politics inform your faith, by the way."

Pot, meet kettle.

Jeffrey asks
Then I can only assume that you want the government to do away with VA hospitals, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, poor baby immunization programs, pre-natal care for poor mothers, public education that permits poor people to go to school, unemployment insurance for the out of work, worker retraining programs, etc. etc. etc. Well?

Except for care for the active military and veterans, who btw VOLUNTEER their time, because the military is a legitimate Govt function, Yes.

Flame away. Call me everything BUT a child of God. It won't be the first time that's happened. EVERY Gov't program in existence is in existence ONLY because some busybody thinks he has the right to confiscate the hard-earned wealth of another for his own purposes. Nobody can dispute the fact that there is rampant fraud, waste and abuse on a far larger scale in the programs you mention than is usually found in private charity. Only about $.28 on the dollar actually gets to the 'welfare' recipient, for example. In private charity, nearly all goes to the intended recipient. Further, in private charity, there is the freedom to refuse it to those who game the system. With gov't, there is no such accountability. This is why one lady asked Obama for a house; she never worked a day in her life because she was one of those generational welfare queens. Clearly, she wasn't disabled, but she wasn't about to take an honest look at herself, accept responsibility for her own life and find her own damn living quarters, either. She felt she was entitled to live at another's expense, and that was it.


Jeffrey Pt 2
This country didn't always have the Federal gov't involved in charity. Somehow we got along just fine; it used to be anathema for a man to take welfare or gov't assistance of any kind. Now, thanks to Gov't, there is a whole segment of society that thinks it ought not have to work for anything. The entitlement mentality we saw after Katrina (and we had refugees here too that trashed the homes they were loaned) was the best illustration of that mindset I've ever seen.

Public education has been with us for a very long time (and is NOT limited to the 'poor', I might add. Most of us grew up with public education, and are not 'poor') but I note that your buddy Obama's Congress has okayed the ending of a voucher program that would deny quality education for some of the poor kids who attend Sidwell Friends, where his own daughters attend. Neither are the Democrats willing for any of us to have the free choice as wo where our kids attend schools-and who can argue that the inner-city schools are the worst? Yet the liberal Dems REFUSE to do anything other than kowtow to the teachers' unions and help these kids.

Would you care to comment on that one?

My faith informs my politics. That faith, BTW, advocates for far more freedom of choices in living than liberal politics ever would-and informed the Founders to the effect that no country has ever enjoyed the level of freedom we have.

I'll gladly buy your one-way ticket to Sweden. There are others here I'm sure who would be happy to chip in. Then you can live the Utopian dream you seek.

Obama listen??
Even if Obama is "listening", he won't TRULY heed any true words of wisdom such as spoken by Pastor Rogers. The best Obama MIGHT come up with, would be only empty words, attempting to parrot what Rogers had to say. Obama is something of a "wind-up" toy...someone "winds" him up at the beginning of the day, with his pre-recorded message(s), and they send him off in Airforce One to provide what?...another capaign speech of course! What else???!!! He is the "eternal" campaigner!!!

AliveInHim
By the way, did you see that in Oakland - which we all know is a glorious example of the "success" of liberal policies - there was a rally in SUPPORT of the gunman who killed four Oakland police officers a few days ago?

This is a shining example of a liberal-produced "city on the hill".

Yep, liberal policies really produced a healthy community in Oakland, didn't they? I sure hope liberals are proud of themselves right now.

Baradiel
I said: "I think you’re letting your politics inform your faith, by the way."

Your said: Pot, meet kettle.

I say: No, my faith is informing my politics. Just like when Christians vote for minor issues, like against same-sex marriage or abortion. Somehow, the big stuff, like caring for the sick and the poor, doesn't appear to be as important, politically. Curious.

AliveinHim
“Gov't program in existence is in existence ONLY because some busybody thinks he has the right to confiscate the hard-earned wealth of another for his own purposes.”

Yeah, what jerks they are to prevent babies from getting sick, or getting medicine to old people. Real assh*les.

“Nobody can dispute the fact that there is rampant fraud, waste and abuse on a far larger scale in the programs you mention than is usually found in private charity.”
I’ll dispute it. Plus the government can do, and is doing, stuff that nobody else is doing. Stop rationalizing why you want to keep your money for yourself.

“Now, thanks to Gov't, there is a whole segment of society that thinks it ought not have to work for anything.”

There is? Where? Describe these people. Our local community advertised a janitorial job, and got 700 applications. Are these the kind of people you’re talking about?

“Public education has been with us for a very long time (and is NOT limited to the 'poor', I might add. Most of us grew up with public education, and are not 'poor'”

And imagine how poor you’d be if public education weren’t there. Oops, that’s a government program!

“I'll gladly buy your one-way ticket to Sweden. There are others here I'm sure who would be happy to chip in. Then you can live the Utopian dream you seek.”

I might take you up on that offer. It’s my dream to live in a Christian nation, where Christianity is practiced not just preached. Read this:

“…It's also not because Americans were too busy taking care of their own; nearly 18 percent of American children lived in poverty (compared with, say, 8 percent in Sweden). In fact, by pretty much any measure of caring for the least among us you want to propose—childhood nutrition, infant mortality, access to preschool—we come in nearly last among the rich nations, and often by a wide margin.”

From an article I read on Christianity in America.

be careful what you wish for
the challenge:
“I'll gladly buy your one-way ticket to Sweden. There are others here I'm sure who would be happy to chip in. Then you can live the Utopian dream you seek.”

the response:
I might take you up on that offer.

{The study, "The EU vs. USA," was done by a pair of economists--Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag--for the Swedish think tank Timbro.

But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income.

In other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

We don't report this with any nationalist glee. The world needs a prosperous, growing Europe, and its relative economic decline is one reason for growing EU-American tension.}

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110 005242

Standshisground
No, I didn't! I only heard a bit about that incident (the shooting, that is) on Savage last night, but none of that surprises me. After all, there are people who think cop-killer Mumia what's-his-name is a hero too.

Yes, liberal policies are just wonderful. I hear Sweden is about broke, but hey, at least they're ALL miserable! :)

What is going on
with TH all of a sudden? If my post to SHG appears twice, thrice or more, my apologies. It's the dadgummed website.

Jeffrey
Let's get this discussion back to where it started. Use your Bible.

Show me where IN SCRIPTURE where Christ EVER legitimized one believer's using the power of Gov't to forcibly take from another, in order to give to a third party-after taking his cut, of course. As I read, I see that not only were gifts to the Church coffers to be strictly voluntary, the elders are to dispense it, and there is nothing there that says slackers are to be rewarded for their idleness. St Paul made it crystal clear that any man who WILL NOT work, SHALL NOT eat. Can it possibly be any clearer? Ananias and Sapphira were killed NOT for not giving all they had to the Church, which is never asked of us, but for LYING to the Holy Spirit about what they DID give. That rich young man whom Jesus suggested giving up his wealth was making a point about loving the things of this world a bit too much; it was not a prescription for everyone to be poor so that nobody could be rich.

The Good Samaritan, I remind you, used his own money to help the assaulted man. At that, what he did was give him immediate care only: he washed and bound up his wounds, and took him to an inn so he could recover. That was the proper extent of his charity-to get him back on his feet. It was never to make him a permanent ward. Too many, like the silly woman I mentioned earlier, are indeed like children-they are wards of the state. This is good, how?

You're perfectly free to pay the Treasury anything above your current level of taxation that you feel guilty about keeping. There is NO morality in Scripture that says you have the right to confiscate the fruits of my labor, so that you need not lie awake nights worrying about 'the children'.


AliveinHim
And where in scripture does it say we can’t, of our own free will, pool our resources to use the government to advance Christ’s command that we help the sick and the poor? You seem to want to insist that you get to do things on your terms, while you profess to follow a Savior who says to do things HIS way.

If you are going to pay taxes anyway, why not use the money in a way that would satisfy your (supposed) religious beliefs?

And let me get this straight: you want all government assistance programs done away with except for services to active or retired military? So we stop funding health care to poor seniors or to indigent babies, and they die, you’re ok with that? When the infant mortality rate goes up, you’re ok with that? Those deaths are ok, because they would only have been prevented through government intervention, is that the argument?

Aren’t you being a little too “YOU” centered, and political, instead of being “CHRIST” centered, and faithful?

Jeffrey
My cat got on the keyboard so there may be a post from me that I didn't get to finish.I'll deal with that if it should show up.





Jeffrey
The problem with your position is that you're assuming, in our particular form of government, that "we" can decide to pool our resources. Under our man-centered government, why should Christian concepts of charity force others, non-believers, to contribute? And your appeals to emotionalism fall flat. Before the government, what do you think happened? Private charities, with far higher levels of efficiency, took care of the indigent, of unwanted babies, etc. In fact, they did so with far fewer demands (as in, "we'll give you money, but we demand you do X"). The fundamental distinction between a secular, Western government and a Christian society is that the money taken by the government is not an act of charity. There reason *why* behind the re-allocation of the money has no connection with Christ's commandments, and thus no actual benefit in the lives of any individual Christian or a Christian community.

Of course, this all comes from the origin of giving - for the left, the origin is in a system of belief that eliminates God and elevates man to that position. Thus, the state is only the political expression of "god's" will, which justifies everything man-as-god does (as Whittaker Chambers points to in refuting the idea that the murders/GULAGs of the Soviet Union were a "mistake"). It is not the act that matters in Christianity, but the act as judged through the prism of *why* it's done. Yes, we are judged on what we do, but not if it's done for selfish or Godless reasons.

the sinner,

Charles

Alive in Him
I didn't read another post but yours.
You said it all brilliantly.Thank God someone really knows the true scriptures, and can apply them to everyday life-which is what the Bible is meant to do.
Obamination spent a number of years going to a church that preached hatred of whites. Newsflash: a church that preaches hate of anything except sin, is not a church.So on Sundays O hung out with racists and called it worship.(Though I heard him tell an interviewer that no one said anything about his being a muslim, the interviewer corrected him,”You mean Christian.” O quickly agreed, but the truth was out.)
Christ’s message is simple:“no matter how great your sin, My mercy and love are greater.”He also said repeatedly His wrath is reserved for His enemies-those who merely believe in Him are saved.He said if we obey His commandments, He considers us to be His friend.
Don't know about others, but being the friend of the Creator of the Universe in exchange for doing what's right and irnoring what's wrong is an excellent deal.
Next doubt O is a Christian-Romans 13:8-OWE NO MAN ANYTHING.Can’t justify trillions in debt with that verse.
Also Jesus ordered us to sell our garments and buy a weapon, if we had to, and a strong man, FULLY ARMED, his possessions and his home are safe. Self-defense was big to Him.This is the foundation of our 2nd Amendment.
The Bible is very clear on capital punishment-if you deliberately take the life of one made in the image of God, then man should take your life.The only law given to Noah when he left the ark.
Secret-friendlies, beware-the law isn’t what people badger you into believing-the law and God's love is what the Bible says it is.
Those who badger you are not more moral than God (said in Job), follow the views of one who wants to call you His friend.
That may be our best offer today.





Sigh
This time I think I did it myself, posting a thought I didn't finish.

Anyway, Jeffrey asks if I want all the babies and little old ladies to die because the Gov't isn't actively involved in 'saving' them.

That was not my point. The gov't has a legitimate function in keeping an army on hand. Those men and women deserve to be cared for both during and after their service since they willingly give up their freedom to live in the private sector in defense of our country.

Jeffrey what you don't seem to want to understand is that there being no gov't services for everybody outside the military does not necessarily translate to a death knell. It is not an 'either/or' situation; where Gov't must step in or death will stalk the streets. That is simply a false premise. Before the Feds got involved there WERE private and church-supported orphanages and old folks' homes. There was county support to some extent; if you ask me I think that's about the extent of gov't involvement that would be legitimate outside of State regs for safety. NOBODY was deliberately left out-more were cared for at home than now, but it was hardly the dreary picture you paint. Even doctors would take payment 'in kind' for their services, or would simply absorb the cost themselves. Most doctors then weren't rich, either. There certainly was none of the malpractice abuse going on today, insurance for which often eats up to half his income.

You are the one being political, asking that everybody (the Gov't-that is, taxpayers) be responsible for everybody else. I suggest you be faithful; give more to your church and see if they don't use your hard-earned dollars better than any government entity would. Bet you the church is far more efficient!

Stop comparing apples to oranges
Cam, and focus on the real issue!

On principle, it doesn't matter what the gov't is taking our money for, it hurts people in the long run and harms the economy. It's been shown repeatedly that lower tax rates on all levels of workers and a reduction of gov't welfare to non-workers (generally forcing them to become workers) is far healthier for the overall economy. Lower tax RATES provided higher tax REVENUES for six of Bush's eight years in office. (Someone with that link, please post it again).

Obviously, wars are expensive, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think that we didn't need to address Al Queda in Afghanistan. The Carter/Clinton/now apparently Obama non-confrontation caused 9-11. We needed another strategy. Wars are expensive. However, wars tend to stimulate the manufacturing sector (that's basic economics, go read Mr. Sowell's books) and so, usually, wars offset their cost by creating higher revenues -- unless they go on too long, then you have to raise tax rates to cover it.

However, Mr. Obama's non-stimulus package doesn't do that. For ex., he's offered AK money for energy refitting of our homes. Sounds great, until you realize that we have to adopt the federal building code which is inadquate to deal with AK's seismic and environmental issues. We also have to hire large numbers of inspectors and create quite a few long-term gov't positions to receive this money. Maybe it provides a few million $ boost to our economy today, but it's going to cost us a few BILLION $$ over the next decade. That's not stimulative.

You should really educate yourself on the CONSEQUENCES of this massive boondoggle. The loss of GDP alone within the next decade, just because we have to pay this off, is incredible. It is an anchor around our country's neck. And, yeah, it's going to raise EVERYBODY'S tax rates and then the "poor" are really going to be poor.

Cam Reply #12
Bush tried to get Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Obama to more heavily regulate Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and they voted against it – now we have these financial problems.
O says he inherited these problems, and yes he did, but NOT BEFORE VOTING FOR THEM WHILE IN CONGRESS.
By the way, I haven’t read all your comments.
What exactly is your opinion of this article?

Jeffrey
Wow, you really like hyperbole, don't you?

Nobody's talking about not providing help to the needy in this country. It's just that some of us don't think the gov't needs to do it.

There is no gov't program in my town for feeding the hungry. Yeah, that's right. There is also no gov't run rescue mission for the homeless.
_____________________ THINK!

Hungry people still get fed and homeless people still have a roof. The food bank and the rescue mission are run by a consortium of local churches as community non-profits. Nobody goes hungry, nobody need freeze to death out in the cold. The services are provided.
______________________THINK!

Just not by government and tax dollars. I give my money willingly rather than having it stolen from my paycheck. Lower my tax rates and I'll give MORE willingly.

a
No one is questioning the sincerity of Obama's beliefs, only whether or not what he actually believes is, in truth, from a Christian tradition. I, too, would posit that they are not. Instead, they come from a wholly worldly perspective and source.

the sinner,

Charles

Aurorawatcher
Did you hear on Rush this morning Obamao's thoughts on developing technology for 'smart houses' that would tell you when to turn on the lights, raise/lower the thermostats?!?

I had to get out of the car to do some grocery shopping so didn't hear all of it, but I DID hear Obamao say that!

Heads up, everyone!

Adrian Rogers
I am not a huge fan of Dr. Rogers; as an SBC-member, I found a deal to disagree with at times.

However, it is a mischaracterization to say he was pro-slavery. The Biblical definition of slavery was very different from the American institution of slavery. In the Old Testament, people who fell on hard times sold themselves into temporary slavery to pay off their debts. Their "masters" were supposed to treat them with respect and they had to release them after seven years, even if the debt hadn't been fully paid. Dr. Rogers was comparing that system with our current system of welfare, which basically puts people in perpetual poverty and gives them no incentive to crawl out. In the OT, people didn't stop working. They were prepared for the next stage of their life -- freedom. Welfare says "sit down, do nothing, let us take care of you". How is that helping anyone?

Although I don't believe in the gov't creating jobs for people, I do think some mechanism for working while you receive benefits needs to be created. I work in community mental health and I can tell you that our chronically mentally ill clients who do work do a great deal better mentally than the clients who think they're retired because they have schizophrenia. And, I really think that anyone who CAN work should ever NOT work and we certainly should never pay anyone for doing that.

aurorawatcher Location: AK Reply # 88 D
Lower tax RATES provided higher tax REVENUES


{Tax rate reductions increase tax revenues. This truth has been proved at both state and federal levels, including by President Bush's 2003 tax cuts on income, capital gains and dividends. Those reductions have raised federal tax receipts by $785 billion, the largest four-year revenue increase in U.S. history. In fiscal 2007, which ended last month, the government took in 6.7% more tax revenues than in 2006.}

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110010 798

and the point is...
this is just an op-ed piece against welfare, quoting a pastor who knew some Presidents. Yes, the laziness welfare can create is bad. Yes, govt can hurt people when it thinks its helping. This is old news, and was not argued here in any way that will make it more relevent. In fact, with that title you're more likely to alienate both secular liberals and christian ones.

Andrew
I think the real question, whether or not specifically intended by the author, is one of the role of faith in our society. Specifically, Christianity. I'm not even sure the author is arguing so much against the welfare state as using Christianity as an excuse to increase statism. This brings up many relevant questions that may not have the immediacy of discussing your cited impacts of the welfare state but do have long-term effects insofar as they effect how we view government and society through the prism of religion (again, specifically Christianity). Which is an arrogantly long-winded way of saying that this may be an academic exercise, but it's not one without consequences.

the sinner,

Charles

Jeffery
I want to know how do you expect to get my people out of POVERTY by giving us more welfare,foodstamps and unemployment, Hell welfare created the Single Black Family and it was a good tool for DEMS. Why do you think that there is 8 out of 10 Black children born today without a father fdigure, JUST FOR THER HELL OF IT, NO, if we arent Married we qualify for more of your BIG EVIL FREE GOVENMENMT HANDOUTS

You LIBS have been promising my people for over 50yrs that if we voted for you you would get us out of Poverty. There is no christianity in LIEING TO MY PEOPLE just so we would vote for you.

Go away LIBTURD, you and your LIEING A$$ LIBS make me SICK

Obama....raising the flag?
Of Christianity? YEAH,SURE!
Do any of you folks remember when George
Steffie-no-fuel-us(ol clinton mouthpiece) asked him about his faith..what came out of Obumas
mouth? Muslim! And Georgie corrected him.....
Christianity! Well,a person has to be told by another person what their faith is......?!?!?
GIMME A BREAK!
COMMENTS,PLEASE!!??
ELVIS

Obama's other charity
The government will choose which charities we will give to.

ACORN - Nonprofit to receive billions from the government.

Not my choice.

Obama's other charity
Partial birth abortion

Definitely not my choice.

What would Jesus do?
Is the question.

Some people want us to think that Jesus would be for the government confiscating working people's wages to pay for non-working people's support.

Would He?

I don't usually toot my own horn by saying "Check out my blog", but I'm doing that today. A couple of weeks ago I presented several BIBLICALLY-BASED lessons on "What Would Jesus Do?" based on "what DID Jesus do?"

My whole point of the exercise was that we don't need to speculate as to what Jesus would be for or against in today's world because we know what He was for and against in the 1st Century and we can look at that and extrapolate what He is saying to us now in the 21st Century.

No need to debate. Just check out the Bible and it clears up all the questions.

Obama uses Christianity
like Clinton used his Bible-as a political prop. Doing anything else is above his pay grade.

Jeffrey the Tool
Your faith is in Obama.
You are the true fool.
can't wait for your judgement day.

Maybe life isn't sacred? What a POS

Obama a Christian?
No way.
With all his policies, especially with regards to supporting the evils of abortion, the gay/lesbian movement, seperation of Church and State, his associations with people and organizations that foster hatred of Christian values, the list goes on and on, plus the destruction of our economy for the sake of Socialist and leftist values, I call him an anti-Christ.
He is NOT a Christian!

Obama and Christianity
Obama's faith is between Obama and God. He will have to answer to God on Judgement Day as we all will answer to Him whether we are Christian or not. Read Revelations in the New Testament and you will understand. I think it is in poor taste to run around carrying a Bible and participate in immoral behavior. We had a President that did just this and the world uncovered every dirty secret. I would rather that a candidate be honest and tell the truth of his faith. I would rather a candidate just be honest in general! Let me know your policies and then I will decide. Obama's policy is pro-choice, late term abortions, and embryonic stem cell research. Does that follow Jesus's teachings? I'm pretty sure that Jesus would say, "no". All I can say is that God has placed our government for us for some reason and He is in control. Trust in God and not the politicians. Micki (California)

christian of convenience
whatever suits chairman moa-bama for that period is what he is.

he knew America was over 55% christian so he became a christian.

has he joined a church since being in the white house?

has he attended services?

what church does his wife go to?

what faith does he teach his children?

my guess is ISLAM.

his 1st address as president was to islam and apologizing for what President Bush did to them.

one writer said his faith is between him and GOD, but when it comes to being the leader of the free world, we as Americas have a right to know the truth.

?????????????
where does chairman moa-bama go on sunday morning?

he goes to the white house basement to meet with ol' Rev. Jeramiah Wright, who sneaks in the back-door to escape the prying eye of the MSM.

they do a little "praise be to moa-bama dance" and bow to orifice of islam.

then our great chairman moa-bama recites a little communist manifesto and kisses his angry wife good-day and sets of to destroy capitalism.

Obama's Bible
As for Obama's Christianity,What do you expect from someone who thinks that robbing Peter to pay Paul is a Christian precept?

Retired Geek reply 26 obama = humanist
From what Obama was quoted as saying in your post, I discern that he is just a run of the mill humanist, popularly known as a secular humanist -- or a unitarian.

humanist manifesto link
For the sake of comparison, here's the link to the humanist manifesto. It's how intellectuals deal with the empty tomb.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_Humanism/H umanist_Manifesto_I

early Christians were communists
The reference to communism in the book of Acts is having all things in common. "And all that believed were together and had all things common and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

It was not, to be sure, an arbitrary communism and bears little relation to communists of today but the principle on which it was based was communistic.

"Neither was there any among them that lacked, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold. And laid them down at the apostles' feet and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." The Essenes also practiced communism.

Saint Benedict's vision was a monastery with its fields and workshops that was self-contained and self-supporting. A monk was to think nothing as being his own property but all belonged to all. This ideal was a type of Christian communism like the apostles practiced.

Why was it successful? there are many reasons.
It was not Democratic. Policy was set by Pastors, Abbeys, etc., who were not elected by the community. The leaders used guidelines set forth in the Scriptures. The leaders relied on guidance from the Spirit of God.

Participation in communal living was voluntary. A dissatisfied member was free to leave the community and rejoin the secular world. A disobedient member would be cast out.

Forced participation in these types of communes will not work, nor democracy.

A good example why Communism fails as a system for a nation.

I am not a nut...but...
Although I am a practicing Catholic, I am not a religious zealot. I have never seen big foot, a ghost,angel or a spaceship. I am employed by a police department. I don't like vampire or science fiction books & movies, nor have I ever been to a psychic. I am married (just the once) with 2 children, a dog & a cat. I consider myself very mainstream with a practical mind. HOWEVER....I think Obama is the AntiChrist. Is there anyone else out there who thinks he is as well?

Real Christ(ian)...
Obama is not Christian despite his claim to be so. Christianity means emulating Christ...something Obama, by his acts, attitudes and policies does not even come close to doing. His acts, attitudes and policies on abortion alone bar him from claiming the mantle of Christian, as Christ would never sanction or enable the on-demand murder of a child by his or her own mother.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears..." 2 Timothy 4:3

Dr. Adrian's comment
"...that is the end of any nation." That's EXACTLY what President Obama wants!

To Cam fro CA -- Post #3
**As for "taking from the people who work", here's the part of the Bible conservatives just don't get.

Deuteronomy 8:17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." 18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.**

Isn't it amazing how conveniently ELASTIC the words of the bible can be when used by liberals! The fact is that one can take just about any verse out of context to justify any idiocy that comes to mind.

Your 'brilliance' in quoting a full verse has to be tempered by your inability to 'spin' it into something... when it says NOTHING in regards to the subject matter at hand, which, if you'd care to know, that creating class envy and taking away from those who work, create and produce to give to professional societal drones creates no change, no wealth, is immoral and is nothing less than artificially legalized highway robbery!

continues..


To Cam from CA -- Post #3 - Second part

But let's give you credit for going through the trouble of extracting one verse out of a book and goint the full length by writing it here.

Unfortunately, your exegetic comprehension leaves sooooo much to be desired. The verse only states that God is the one in charge, He gives health, ability and desire to seek opportunity and produce wealth to those who actually get off their rear end and work. In short, man depends ultimately on God's will, not his own. So who is the one who "don't get it?"

The problem with liberals, as much as with non-denominational fundamentalism, is the fact that there's no cohesion, no doctrine that binds anyone, no authority. Liberals want to interpret the Constitution to fit their agenda, fundies interpret the bible the same way and for the same reasons. Everyone's a Constitutional lawyer, everyone a Pope and ultimately NO ONE agrees on anything, even on the urgent need to save the country from the predatory agenda of the subversive communist idiot in chief and his cadre of sycophants.
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