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Friday, March 16, 2007
Mike Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
The non-scandalous scandal
by Mike Gallagher
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Move over, Watergate. There’s a big new scandal in America. The impeachment of a president? That’s child’s play compared to this biggie.

In fact, to read today’s papers, all the political controversies in our nation’s history combined don’t add up to the earthquake of a scandal that is rocking our world: the Bush Administration was involved in the firing of eight U.S. attorneys.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall of a high school social studies class when a student timidly raises his hand and says to the teacher, “Um, Miss Smith – if President Clinton can fire all 93 U.S. attorneys for obvious political reasons, why can’t President Bush?”

It’d be fascinating to hear what Miss Smith would say. If she’s a liberal Democrat hell-bent on destroying the Bush Administration, I suppose she’d say something to the effect that it somehow looks worse to fire eight people than all ninety-three.

But if she has a shred of fairness and objectivity, she’d answer the student’s question by laughing out loud at the absurdity of Democrats – and a couple of spineless Republicans – thumping their chest in outrage over a complete, total, meaningless, entirely non-issue.

I get tired of repeatedly asking fundamental questions that make me sound like I’m leading a group of mentally challenged people. Just like we often ask, “What is it about illegal immigrants you don’t understand?” we now have to ask, “What is it about the fact that the U.S. attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president that you don’t understand?”

Yes, all one has to do to respond to this idiotic firestorm of controversy is point out the obvious: U.S. attorneys can be appointed and dismissed by the administration for whatever reason it chooses.

I’m not exaggerating here; this is a laugh-out-loud contrived and concocted political “scandal.” Aided by a willing and enthusiastic Bush-hating news media, hypocritical Democrats are trying to convince the American people that a White House “connection” to the dismissal of these U.S. attorneys is somehow sinister.

I keep waiting and watching for a Democrat, any Democrat, to explain why Bill Clinton’s house-cleaning purge of 1993 is a different situation. In fact, I foolishly waited for former Clinton aide-turned ABC News “journalist” (ha!) George Stephanopolous to ask that of Hillary Clinton while interviewing her the other day about the “scandal.” Silly me. Why would the man who was at Clinton’s right hand in the middle of the mass firings and the woman who was at his left hand even touch on the subject in front of millions of viewers? Even a couple of rabid liberals like them know how to keep their mouths shut when it comes to reeking hypocrisy.

So the only thing left to ponder is why there’s been such a tepid, lukewarm, practically non-existent response from the Bush Administration and Republicans everywhere.

My theory is that there can only be one explanation: despite knowing that this is a non-scandal, conservatives have never really liked Alberto Gonzales and so they’re happy to see him twist in the wind.

I’ve heard the grumblings in the past about the moderate nature of some of Gonzales’ positions on social issues. Others say he is too mild-mannered and even bland for the job. In fact, his media appearances this week seem to confirm that. It really wouldn’t have been much of a stretch for the U.S. Attorney General to dismiss this entire affair with a laugh and an observation to the TV interviewers that politics is certainly blood sport.

Instead, he came across as the proverbial deer in the headlights, saying something about “taking responsibility” for certain aspects of all of this and practically acting like he robbed a bank.

Everything about this fabricated controversy stinks. And the worst part of it is this: if and when Gonzales – or Karl Rove – should happen to resign in order to get the world off President Bush’s back, the bullies of the media and the Democratic Party will wallow in victory and be more monstrous than ever.

One of these days, our side will wake up and realize that you gotta fight back.

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About The Author

Mike Gallagher is a nationally syndicated radio host, Fox News Channel contributor and guest host and author of Surrounded by Idiots: Fighting Liberal Lunacy in America.

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So let me get this straight:
It's morally wrong to fire your lawyer? SWEET!!!!

Gallagher's Disgusting Lies
the sickest thing about all this is that twisted liars like gallagher simply do everything they can to AVOID talking about what this is REALLY about.

everyone -- except for right-wing extremists like gallagher -- knows that this has NOTHING to do with the legality of a president firing u.s. attaorneys.

it has EVERYTHING, however, to do with a president and his administration KNOWINGLY LYING about their reasons for doing the firing.

the bush administration blatantly LIED when they said the firings were all because of "poor job performance."

ALL OF THEM HAD EXCELLENT JOB REVIEWS!

THEN, they said these firings had nothing to do with politics--

while internal emails leading right up the white house PROVE that they were fired because of a LACK OF ALLEGIANCE to bush!

it's unbelievable.

liars like gallagher do everything they can obfuscate, manipulate, distort, and flat-out LIE -- simply because they care NOT about truth--

.....kind of like a certain presidential administration they so love to protect.

give it up, gallagher. your spineless truth-twisting is getting less convincing by the day.

clinton's 93 attorneys...
...I.e., not a post on the nature of God.

So I've looked for a good account of the historical precedent behind the Reno mass firings, which do indeed look pretty bad, especially given that the US attorney overseeing Whitewater was one of those booted. But--though I'm not by any means a Democrat--I actually have to take up Gallagher's gauntlet and say that '93 actually was a very different situation.

First of all, as I think we've recognized in this chat by now, the historical precedent was indeed for the US attorneys appointed by prior presidents to tender their inaugurations en masse at the opening of the new president's term. The article below, which seems relatively trustworthy and well-sourced on the facts (albeit slanted in its interpretation), indicates that the Reno firing of the 93 was rare only because they were _fired_ (rather than all resigning). Previously, all US attorneys had submitted their resignations upon the inauguration of the new president; in 1993, some of them didn't, thus the mass firing. See section 1b:
http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+1687.

Secondly, there was little precedent for a President firing attorneys that he had himself appointed (which obviously was the case here, given it's a 4-year term). See the email from Kyle Sampson I've linked to (yeah, it's on Think Progress, but I don't think they've sunk to editing jpegs of emails over there):
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/13/sampson-rove-attorney/

The key sentence is “In recent memory, during the Reagan and Clinton Administrations, Presidents Reagan and Clinton did not seek to remove and replace U.S. Attorneys they had appointed whose four-year terms had expired, but instead permitted such U.S. Attorneys to serve indefinitely under the holdover provision.” I think it's pretty safe to say Sampson's a reliable source on this particular issue.

And lastly, about the Whitewater US Attorney: the merits of the Whitewater investigation notwithstanding, I don't see how we can say that firing Charles A. Banks in favor of Paula Casey was political, because _Banks himself had already declined to pursue the case. In fact, he had argued that doing so would constitute "prosecutorial misconduct" in violation of "he most basic fundamental rule of Department of Justice policy." The quotation's from
http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20070315/cm_uc_crjcox/op_452219
And see also
http://mediamatters.org/items/200703140011

Whether or not the firing of the 8 attorneys is a big deal seems to me still undecided. But I've gotta say, the Clinton comparison fails in every way.

will - your post of 7:39 PM

There are a lot of good thoughts on your post and a lot of common sense.

All I can offer are a couple of comments on your last paragaraph You are right that we all do good and evil. But that is because of our sin nature. As for being the image of God, yes, that is possible with a renewed spiritual nature.

The first man, Adam, was not born with an evil (sin) nature within him. In Genesis 1:31, after God completed all He created He said, "...it was very good." Thus, Adam's nature was that of a spiritual (holy) man.

It was only after Adam and Eve were disobedient in the garden that they both lost their spiritual nature and were endowed with a sin nature (the Fall). It is that sin nature within us that causes the evil in all mankind.

The main purpose of God in relationship to His creation of man and woman is to restore them into the original state Adam and Eve were in before the Fall.

There are only two ways to get to heaven: either you think you can do it on your own or you do it through a Savior. We need a Savior because of our sin nature. God is holy (without sin) and He requires there be an atonement for the sin that is in mankind. God gave his only begotten Son (Jesus Christ) to be that atonement and pay the penalty for the sin of all mankind.

If this atonement is accepted by faith in the person of Jesus Christ, one becomes restored in their relationship with their Maker. He acquires a new spiritual nature to replace the one that was lost in the garden. Thus, the born-again believer has two natures: his old sin nature plus his new (Christlike) spiritual nature.

His old nature consisted of a body and soul. His new nature now consists of a body, soul and spirit (of God).

You are right about God's attributes. The love, joy and peace that we are to have in our lives were not meant to be conjured up within ourselves. When the attributes of God are manifested, it is His love, joy and peace that we are to enjoy.

Thus, in our humanity, we are a somewhat less than what we are intended to be because of our sin nature. But, through a personal relationship with the Living God, we are restored as we were meant to be (like Adam and Eve).

What the reborn Christian attempts to do by faith is to allow the Spirit of God to express Himself through him into the lives of others. When that happens, that person is, in fact, endowed with the character of God.

God does exist and He is holy; that is, without sin. He does desire for us to be in fellowship with him and, as such, gave up His Son to make that possible. Yes, our image will always be flawed in part while we are on this planet, but in heaven, we are given a new body: one that is not corruptible, but incorruptible, one that is not perishable, but imperishable. We will no longer be influenced by our sin nature. We will be totally restored in the original image of God and will spend the rest of eternity in fellowship with Him.

ONTIME

That idiot Waxman is not a Senator, he is a Congressman from West Los Angeles.

If you look him up on Google, it will indicate he doesn't do much other than spend all his time looking for oversight opportunities - no family, no hobbies, nothing. He is totally consumed in his fanaticism and dislike for the Repub party. Not a well balanced individual at all.

A FINE COME UPPENCE
POOR OL' HENRY "NOSTRILITIS" WAXMAN JUST ABOUT SUCKED UP ALL THE JACKASS PARTY DIRT BY INHALING AFTER HE WAS TOLD BY AN EXPERT WOMAN WITNESS THAT THE BLOND HAIRED VALERIE PLAME (LIAR SUPREME) WAS NOT BY LAW ANYTIME COVERT AND THAT HIS (WAXMAN) OTHER SOURCE OF INFORMATION THE GENERAL WAS A PIKER WHO WAS ALSO MISINFORMED AND NOT AN EXPERT.

THESE FEW WORDS TO HENRY, DID MORE DAMAGE TO THE JACKASS PARTY THAN I COULD HAVE HOPED FOR. THIS WHOLE CHARADE TO INTIMIDATE THE ADMINISTRATION WAS THE FARCE, THE CIRCUS IT LOOKED TO BE AND THAT FITZGERALD AT THE BEHEST OF THE JACKASS GENERALS, SPENT AND WASTED A GREAT DEAL OF TIME AND GOBS OF U.S. TAXPAYER MONEY. THE REST OF THE FACTUAL CIRCUMSTANCES SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. NOW IT'S TIME TO END THE REST OF THIS FARCE.

WAY TO GO SENATOR..........!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrews
That "investigative committee" you referred to is a witch hunt intended to trick, slick, or sicken someone in their crosshairs into perjury charges and the accompanying jail time. By now the hangover from the party they had after the last trapping expedition has probably worn off. Speaking of sicken, I have to go blow chunks.

Let's back up a moment.

To Silicondoc:

Your posts of 7:06 and 7:18 AM weren't quite right. Maybe we have different versions of the Bible.

If you were quoting from Matt 19:21, the NIV version is, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor,..."

It does not say, "...Sell...and give (it all) to the poor,...", only to sell them.

Should all believers sell everything they own? No. We are responsible to care for our own needs and the needs of our families so as to not be a burden on others. We should, however, be willing to give up anything if God asks us to do so. This kind of attitude allows nothing to come between us and God and keeps us from using our God-given wealth selfishly. If you are comforted by the fact that Christ did not tell all his followers to sell ALL their possessions, then you may be to attached to what you have.

andrews

Its getting late. Gotta go to church in the morning. If you leave another post, I'll get back to you mid-morning.

God bless

andrews - your post of 1:09 PM

One of the things that even Christians don't understand about work is, that we do not go to work to make a living!

We work because it is a creation mandate from the second chapter of Genesis. God commanded it.

We work for many reasons: to provide for our family, to provide for others, to add value to our community, to allow our character to be develop to reflect Christlikeness, and many other reasons.

We work as working unto the Lord. He is our Master and we are his servant. We want to glorify Him in the things we do: from paying our income tax to giving our employer a full day's effort. Work was created by Him so as the believer and the non-believer can work side by side and be an influence and helpful servant to the non-believer.

Work should be value-added, not just a place to pick up a pay-check. Work is a priviledge because God has given us the talent, intelligence, and motivation to do the best he has made us capable of doing. Man was intended to be fulfilled by his efforts, but the real satisfaction comes from knowing it is being done for Him.

andrews - your post of 1:04 PM

As far as I am concerned, there is only one who is a "Reverend", and that is the Lord God Almighty and no one else. To put ourselves in the place of the Reverent One is a little presumptuous. I don't find that in the Bible anyplace. What you are in the eyes of the Lord and what you are in your own eyes are two different things.

I didn't read the article about Kinsolving, so I can't comment on that.

I am glad and proud to say I am a Zionist. I support their desires with my treasures and as far as I am concerned, it can't go for a better purpose. I am not alone. There are many, many others that feel as I do, not all of them are Christians either.

andrews - your post of 11:46 PM

Again, what is the purpose of having the money?

To be obedient is what God is looking for. He looks to giving as a way of glorifying Him. There are a number of biblical verses explaining the difference between cheerful and reluctant giving, why we are to give generously, in what spirit we are to give, sacrificial giving, and what the principles of giving are.

This whole thing about, "What Would Jesus Do" (WWJD) has been distorted very badly. I explained to "will" in my 11:02 PM post a little of what is in Gal 2:20. Thus, by faith, I allow Christ in me to determine what my giving should be. When a liberal says I should do such and such, he is not talking to me, but he is talking to Christ in me. I suppose if that person gets to heaven, he will tell God to get out of His chair, that he wants to use it for himself. A little far-fetched, perhaps, but they seem to reflect that attitude.

I don't know of anything God forces us to do and I would never listen to a pastor/preacher who said anything along that line; money or otherwise. It is an abomination to the holiness of a Living God.

When one comes before a Living God, he wants to please Him for the grace that has been extended to him. He has given us a choice to be reconciled to Him and what we do, we do out of gratitude for the work HE has done on the cross on our behalf. He died that we might live. It doesn't get any better than that.

Badly worded
Last sentence should read:

And that, for the system to work, it does not require that anyone give up any of their freedom.

My badly place "to work" clause makes the sentence's meaning very unclear.


Sonny
I agree with you. I live to serve G-d, and to make sure my children learn what they need to find their way as well. However, earning wealth in no way conflicts with that.

I am not a rich man, but I do not begrudge men their wealth, even if they give away none. After all, who does more good? A man who earns $10,000 and gives it away, giving a few men a single windfall, or a man who earns $10,000, opens a business and employees several of those same men?

The fact that pursuing their own selfish desires actually ends up benefitting their fellow men is the magic of a free market in a nation which protects individual rights. In prior times wealth came from a lord expropriating from his underlings, his greed adding nothing to anyone's wealth. Now, we have a system which means that to pursue his own desires, a man must benefit his fellows. I find great hope in that realization.

Well, I have drifted away from the topic of religion. Though I have to say I find a trace of G-d's benevolence in the fact that even our basest desires, under the right system, can be harnessed to the good of all. And that it does not require that anyone give up any of their freedom to work.

Sonny
And, since I believe WND does not give Reverend Kinsolving his proper title, I have to say: He is an Episcopal lay minister who has worked for years as a reporter (including as a white house correspondent), but it still ordained. I am not sure why his CV usually omits this, as he makes no secret of it.

Only mention this as someone may look at WND and wonder why I called him "the good reverend".

Oh, and on a different topic, I am glad that so many evangelical have been willing to publically state they are Zionists. Lately it seems even Jews are shying away from the Z-word. Many will say "I support Israel, but I'm not a zionist..." as if Zionism were a dirty word. (Oddly, the left has no problem with a "Palestinian homeland", but find it offensive to speak of a "Jewish homeland", as if Palestinian is a good designation, but Jewish is somehow suspect...). As a long time supporter of the ZOA, I am just happy to hear there are so many Evangelicals who count themsleves Zionists. (And it makes up for all the Buchananite paleocons who feel they have to kiss Arafat's ring to prove they aren't evil globalists.)

andrews - your post of 11:44 PM

The primary issue of "wealth" revolves around character.

That is, Jesus spent a lot of time talking about money. The nature of money, being what it is, offers of the holder many options. The two main ones being it can be used to glorify oneself or it can be used to glorify God. Those are the only two real options we have.

God desires that through Christ, one becomes more Christlike in their character. Thus, how he handles money and the decisions he makes with it really determines where the "heart" of a person is. You may have heard that if you want to know about a man, ask to see his checkbook.

Thus, man needs to resolve with himself as to what his purpose in life is. If it is to glorify God, what he does with his money will reflect that. Mandatory giving does not develop the godly character of a person. It only makes him a "legalist" perhaps for the purpose of gaining him acceptance with his fellow man or to boost his own ego.

Instead of renouncing one's wealth, how about this. I work hard, accumulate wealth and, then, give a portion to the needy. With the rest of the wealth, I reinvest in order that I might again give to the needy.

For instance, I have a $100,000.00. I invest it and give the earnings on the money away each year. I could give far more over a lifetime than I could if I gave the whole 100 thousand away at one time. Which is the better way of stewardship? You decide.

Sonny
I think my view of the Episcopals may be somewhat slanted by local radio. Living in Maryland, I get to listen to Les Kinsolving all the time (though he doesn't broadcast as much as he did), so I get to hear a lot about the left-wing trends in the episcopal church. (I you aren't familiar with the good reverend Kinsolving, he does get published once a week on http://www.wnd.com, though reading him is nowhere near the experience of listening to him.)

I included the Catholics primarily as I am more familair with university Catholics than any others. Though, strangely, the Jesuits provide both the most left and most right wing Catholics I have met... Also, I think I am a bit influenced by a great aunt (a Catholic) who was convinced getting rid of the Latin Mass destroyed the Catholic Church. Thanks to her, I think I am doomed to seeing modern Catholicism as inherently too far left.

I know a number of messianic jews (including some Jews for Jesus members) and I am aware they are almost entirely right of center. The same with the evamngelicals and mormons I have known.

Of course, as you sdaid, the individual congregations vary quite a bit from the formal church position, and individual members may have little in common with either the church hierarchy or the congregation, but there are some general trends. I think it is safe to say that unitarians , UCC members, and reform Jews tend to the political left, while evangelical Christians, Unification Church member and Chabad Lubavitch tend to lean politically right. (Though some chasidim have voted left when they thought they could get some benefit from it. As the rebbes of each sect [excluding Breslov, who have no living rebbe] can -- largely -- control the entire block, trading support for favors has happened from time to time. Of course, strongly centralizeed religious groups all seem to suffer from this-- Mormon elders were historically prone to political horse-trading as well, though I don't know much about the current LDS tendencies.)

andrews

Good thoughts on your part. They are well worth discussing.

Let's try your post of 11:36 PM.

I view Chrisianity as being on a mainstream "continuum".
On the far right, I would put the Evangelicals. On the far left would be the liberal Protestants. In between most of the other denominations (about 160 in all) would be located somewhere between the two. I hate to identify where the denominations are precisely on the continuum because the pastor/preacher in those churches is usually the deciding factor rather than the Statement of Faith of the headquarters of a particular church.

However, there are some so-called denominations that are considered "outside the mainstream". These might include the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, and a few others. They are placed there due to their cultic nature.

Catholics generally are considered more on the liberal side of the continuum, but there are some born-again believers within the church.

As an evangelical, it makes me a Zionist. I support the right of Israel to the land which they occupy according to the Scriptures. I believe in the prophecies of the O.T. as over 300 have already been fulfilled.

The mainline churches such as Presbyterians, Methodists and Lutherans seem to be in a state of flux. Many of their members are now leaning Left and those who want to stay on the Right are resisting. It is too early to say how it will shake out. Probably a lot of "splits" and new churches will start up.

The Left has me baffled as much as it has you. It is definitely one common interest we share. It is just that I have not spent that much time trying to see who all the "players" are on the spiritual playing field. I support Jewish Zionists and conservative Christian organizations. One of my dearest friends is a Messianic Jew and is also is ordained as a Baptist preacher, if you can believe that! Saturdays at the synagogue and Sundays in church plus being a geologist during the week. A real busy guy.

Sonny
I am also aware there are sects (in all faiths) which claim the act is more important than the intent, and thus subscribe to forcing others to do right, as their actions are what count, not their motives.

I disagree with such belief systems, but I can see how they could take Jesus' admonition to give to the poor and take it to mean it is our duty to force wealth redistribution on everyone.

Sonny
You make a point I made on another post, though somewhat differently.

As I have read the New Testament, you are correct, Jesus was asking for a voluntary sharing and renunciation of wealth. And (again, this is theology coming from a non-christian, but one with an interest in theology from all faiths) this is the only position that makes sense.

And here is how it ties in to my earlier post:

I was arguing that "mandatory" charity was morally reprehensible. First, it deprived the "giver" of his freedom, and was thus evil. Second, it deprived him of the chance ot make a moral choice. if he chose to give, he would gain merit, if he chose not to do so, he would suffer the consequences. by forcing him to do so, you deprive him of the chance to choose to be moral, and thus deprive him of the chance to do right.

I think the Christian postion would be the same. If one wishes to renounce his wealth to help others, he is free to do so, and it is a creditable act. But forcing him to do so is evil, as it deprives him of freedom and of the ability to make a moral choice on his own.

But, then again, I know this is just my own theory, and I am hardly in a position to be considered a Christian theologian.

Inkling_revival
In the Maryland gubernatorial election of 1994 between Sauerbrey and Glendenning, a judge actually ruled that there was voter fraud in Baltimore, but it "was not significant".

Yes, right. In an election won by 0.42% of the votes, fraud doesn't matter...

Sonny
Just out of curiousity, what do you include in the liberal Christian category? I would think obvious targets such as UCC and the leftists branches of the Epicospal Church (sadly, most of the Espicopal hierarchy of late). One would also include the "liberation theology" Catholics, I would assume, as well. Any that I missed?

I only ask, because I can easily tell you who is on the left in my faith (sadly, every Jewish group except for the most orthodox, though individual Jews often seem a lot more right leaning than their congregation -- or party affiliation -- would suggest). I am curious who you find to be the left leaning segment of Christianity. (And I still can't figure out how my coreligionists support the anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-religion parties of the left, but most do, unfortunately.)

will

As for Paris Hilton, I am sure she is a disappointment to her Creator for using the gifts and talents she received as she has.

There are only two spiritual belief systems in the world today: those who believe they can make it into heaven on their own or those who know they need a Savior.

Paris, as is anyone else, only has two choices. Should she, like anyone else, choose a Savior, He forgives those who have a repentant heart and provides through Christ, an eternal life with an Living God.

I am paraphrasing this, but I think in Scriptures it says that the wealth of the unrighteous will go to the righteous. Her money will wind up where He wants it to go as will the money of ALL the unrighteous. He is in total control of all life. He sets the standard of living for those on earth. We set the standard of living for ourselves in heaven.

Humans do not make the rules for life. HE has provided us an instruction manual for life and has given us free will to decide what we want to do with one life he has given us. If one chooses to believe there is no God, one of his choices for life has already been made. No one forces him to make to only other choice there is.

Stupid
Dogjudge and others keeps saying the "checks and balances" give congress a duty to look into this matter.

Well, checks and balances apply to matters where congress has oversight. The president has complete authority to fire US attorneys with NO CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT. They may be allowed to form an investiagtive committee, but why? They can't do anything about it, so why investigate? He could ahve fired every attorney named "Bob", or every attorney who wore blue on Thursday and they could do nothing about it. They have no oversight duty, nor any reason investigate.

So, what dogjudge is saying is that it is great the Dems are back in power to form impotent meaningless committess to look into non-crimes?

Also, to Sardin, regarding signing notes by Bush: Yes, how silly of the head of the executive branch to reserve executive privileges to himself. Of course the legislative should control execution, not the executive. Why would I think the EXECUTIVE would control EXECUTION of laws? Silly me!

And, one more thing: KosKids, DUmmies and others, calling the president "the Decider" or "the Chimperor" or other juvenile little names does not help convince others of your argument. It just shows you are a juvenile little fool trying to shock the adults. Guess what? We aren't shocked. We expect you libs to come in, shout an obscenity, pee on the floor, and leave. Doing so just confirms our beliefs.

will

I also wanted to comment on your thinking I would "hate" to living with Jesus during his nomadic, communal days.

If that was the society I was in at that time, it would be the only one I would know about and there would be no reason for me to NOT want to live as the rest of my "family" was living.

The supposition is not relevant the wealth creation this country has experienced.

God is a creative being. We are created in his image. What God has already created surpasses the imagination of mankind. However, using the creative powers he gave us and the resources that are bountiful, man, in his wisdom, used the resources provided to create for himself and his fellow man ways of doing things so that he might glorify his Maker.

Today, with the industrial revolution, the USA is, literally, feeding the world. Millions of people who might otherwise starve are enjoying life, millions who might otherwise die from disease are getting medical assistance, millions who suffer earthquakes, floods, and natural disasters get assistance from this country.

We have nothing to be ashamed of for developing the resources which God has provided. Nothing at all.

No, I disagree with you that Jesus would loathe a capitalistic system. I believe what he loathes are the people who exploit the system. Money is not the root of all evil, it is the LOVE of money that is the problem. Acquiring property is not the problem, it is how it is used AFTER it is acquired that is the problem.

You are on a computer, as am I. Am I using it to glorify God or am I using it to indulge in activities which denigrate the Creator, Sustainer, Redeemer and Judge of the Universe? As you are well aware, there are plenty of other web sites we could indulge in that would be detrimental to our well-being.

Come on, let's face it. Wouldn't you prefer to live the lifestyle you now have than live in the "nomadic" era of biblical times? Of course, you would. To be follower of Jesus does not mean I need to go around like John the Baptist wearing camel hair eating locusts and wild honey.

Jesus did not have to come into the world at the time he did nor the place he did. The fact he came where and when he did is not the determining factor of how one is to live their lives.

We are dealing with a spiritual issue when we are to live out our lives as Jesus would. The fact of the matter is that NO one can live like Jesus. However, as Gal 2:20 tells us, "If I am crucified in Christ, then it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..."

This means that no matter where I am or what time period I live my life, it is HE who lives His life in me. It is an act of faith on my part that it is He who expresses who He is in me. I can not live the Christian life on my own. It is the confidence and trust I have in the Word of God that, "...the life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God."

will
You need a few theology lessons, and a brief course in biblical hermeneutics.

The clear difference between Jesus and what you call "wealth redistribution" is that Jesus never, on any occasion or in any way, endorsed coercion as a means of redistributing wealth. Everything was completely voluntary.

The way the Left has glommed onto religious talk in the wake of the 2004 election, after having learned that middle America regards the Left (correctly) as amoral, anti-religious, and badly out of step with them, is pretty disgusting just in itself. But what it says about the character of the Left is even worse. Pretending to love Christ and the scriptures when, in fact, you're just pandering to influence a voter bloc, fits the accurate definition of "taking the Lord's name in vain." You're using His words and authority to draw attention to yourselves, but without His authorization. What are you going to say to Him when He confronts you with your distortions of His commands, and asks how you dared?

ajhil
As I suspected: the acknowledgements of Vance and Hastings amount to the two of them trying to push for an investigation. Nothing there rebuts a single item I presented earlier.

You're a good water-carrier, but the simple fact of the matter is, a Democrat refused to investigate a close election in which there was a clear indication of Democrat voter fraud, and from where I stand, DESERVED to lose his job.

Furthermore, this jibes with the clear pattern I've seen nationwide, of Democrat breaking campaign laws with impugnity, feeling absolutely sure they will never be prosecuted, while Republicans routinely get prosecuted even when there is no crime. Democrats own the local courts, which is how they get away with it. We live in a cesspool of Democrat corruption, and Democrats get to pretend it's the other way 'round 'cause they also control the press.

Scum.

will

You are absolutely right. You will find many Christians who subscribe to that belief. I just don't happen to be one of them.

The five main groupings of Christianity is usually divided into evangelical, fundamentalists, mainline Protestants, liberal Protestants and Catholics.

Although, by and large, they are all reading the same Bible, their worldview usually determines their understanding of what Scriptures say. Therein lies the problem.

Each group has their own seminarians and their bias' which have determined what they believe the intent of the authors of the Bible says.

It really serves no purpose here to discuss what one group advocates as their position on a particular political issue because each group is using a different frame of reference.

If all of us read one piece of literature exactly the same way, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"Wealth redistribution" can be read just about anyway you want. I am a little surprised that you think I am engaging in "Jesus Bashing". I really didn't think you knew enough of the Bible to offer an honest assessment of his character. If I were to take bits and pieces of the Bible without regard for "wholeness" of it, I would easily make the same mistake.

The problem here is, "What makes what I believe better than what other Christians believe on the same subject". It is the liberal Christian who is somewhat in line with the belief of "wealth Redistribution" incarnate. I don't know how they came up with it and since it is antithetical to both my worldly and spiritual studies, I can't comment on it.

From a political perspective, I think the redistribution of wealth does nothing more than enable others who are able to provide for themselves and their families to look for a hand-out (or welfare) instead.

I learned as a young boy that when the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, they attempted a communal society. As it turned out, only a few worked to provide for the others. The leader of the group, thereupon, divided the land up and each man cared for his own land.

Problem solved. If you worked, you ate. If you didn't, you went hungry.

That bit of the history of our country stuck with me the rest of my working career. I never went on welfare. I never joined the union. I provided for my family, gave to charity, joined service clubs and chambers of commerce, became a member of a church, and became a viable part of the community of which I belonged meeting the needs of others along the way.

In essence, I wanted to have the right and privledge to "distribute" the money I earned the way I felt God wanted me to rather than the way politicians felt I should. The character of a man is determined by his acts. If he is self- serving, yes, maybe the government should tax the money out of him. But, if our society was one whereby we thought more of others than ourselves, our government would only have to do the few things our Constitution was set up to do.

Money is one of the most talked about subjects Jesus engaged in. Men, to this day, have been given the dilemma to determine what they will worship most: money or God. It is no accident it is part of God's economy. It brings out the best and the worst in us as it is supposed to.

ajhil
Typical of a leftist, you take any source you don't like and declare it not a source, simply because you don't like it. I know you do it sincerely, but it's a completely dishonest tactic, practiced by people who have no intellectual integrity.

I'm very sorry to inform you, conservative or not, the Wall Street Journal is one of the most highly respected publications in publishing history, and if you're going to rebut factual information carried in its pages, you're really going to have to supply evidence to the contrary.

So as far as I'm concerned, my challenge to you has gone unanswered, and I remain convinced that the Republicans had every right to expect a serious investigation, and the President every right to fire the US Attorney who refused to do it.

I'd be interested in reading a description of what Chris Vance and Doc Hastings actually admitted to -- because, unlike you, I actually check contrary sources to see whether my facts are accurate or not. I suspect what they said amounts to acknowledging that they pushed hard for an investigation. You may supply a link if you like, but I'll check it out myself in the meantime.

Porretto - your post at 4:59 AM

We NO longer have an educational system in the United States of America.

The Liberals of this country have changed it to indoctrination system instead. They set it up, they run it, they revise history as they wish it to be and out of it we get a bunch of radical, extreme educators, lawyers, journalists and media hacks who saddle the rest of us with heavy-handed regulations, wealth redistribution, diplomatic capitulation and economic protectionism.

Oh boy, I can't wait to see how the rest of this century plays out.

slacker - your post at 6:24 PM Friday

At last. Your last paragraph is very truthful. Admitting to what we already know.

The ONLY Democratic strategy they have to regain the presidency is to discredit the existing one.

Thank you, thank you. Honesty is the best policy. You will be rewarded in heaven, I think. Maybe. Hummm, you know, I'm not too sure about that. I wouldn't rely on it.

Hey, left wingers

You complain about Bush not having an "exit strategy" for Iraq, why don't you show us what one looks like by getting off this thread.


Problem

It certainly appears to me that we have a problem with an abuse of the oversight provisions that the Democrats have again found themselves to be in control of.

Waxman and Leahy and others have spent months preparing for the day when they could take any scintilla of a scandal and make a national incident out of it. They have become experts at it.

Please be assured. This is the M.O. of the Democratic Party. They don't know anything other than being obstructionists. They will be burdening the Bush administration as much as possible with one investigation after another. You better get used to it. This is a way the Demos get their "jollies" off and then they can laugh at the Repubs when it happens.

A real sorry bunch!! What a hateful political party!!! Screw the Country. Screw its people. Especially, screw the troops fighting to protect us all.

Bush vs Clinton
Bush relieved 8 US Attornies. That's it. End of story.

Clinton fired all 93 US attornies (they had 5 days to clear out). Two of them had grand jury investigations into Whitewater and the Rose Law firm. The 2 replacements closed the investogations down within a week of thier hiring. Those investigations were later reopened by the DOJ, and eventually dozens went to jail includeing Wesbter Hubbel (Deputy Attorney General). HRC claimed ignorance about the Rose Law firm billing records (they later showed up in the White House once the case was over).

apoplectic
That is the tip of the ice berg - what gets me is his little notes on the legislation that he signs into law - to the effect that he reserves the right to change his mind on it later - also all the comparision to him and Clinton is so much crap - if you are saying that Clinton was a dirt bag does the make it all right for Dubya to be one too????? A great man once said "He who trades his liberty for security, has neither liberty or security." That would be Ben Franklain

Clinton
The reason people bring up Clinton when Bush is accused of a "scandal" is to show that usually there is something that Bill Clinton did that was worse than anything Bush is accused of and yet the media was for the most part silent. That is the point - the media is biased. The law is clear that President Bush can fire US Attorneys at will and he doesn't have to have a reason. It also does not say that he can fire them at will but only during a certain time period. The firing was not scandalous even if it was for political reasons, but I do think that they shot themselves in the foot by not just being up front about it.

non scandal
How many scapegoats have to take the fall for this president before neocons admit the truth. This man thinks he's above everyone else because that's the way he was raised. His parents constantly got him out of trouble no matter the deed and he was never held accountable for his actions.
The same thing is going on in what's suposed to be adulthood. Everyone doesn't buy the, "I'm just a good-ole country boy", and "aw shucks" convenient positions and attitudes of taking credit for all that appears to be good and denyiny or "not recollecting" all that is bad.
It's people like you that continue to make excuses for this flagrant and purposeful behavior. Even if you like the man as a person, he's the right person to lead, what's supposed to be, a democratic form of government.
The credit for continued needless death and destruction is on the enablers, like yourself, who condone these actions by lying and/or making excuses for him. As is happening too frequently in this country, some are putting politics over morality and what's decent and right.
I sleep well at night, how about you?
Sharon

Sardine
Damn that presidential power and the stupid Constitution that gives King George the authority to fire his own cabinet and Justice Department appointies.. What were those men thinking creating three co-equal branches of government. It'll never work!!

It is Good To Be The King
As Mel Brooks said ; "It's good to be the king." That is what we have now - Oh he calls himself the decider but he be the king - congress be damned

dogjudge
Far more amazing is the fact that these emails always find their way to the opposing party or the media and yet so many people are convinced the government is capable of all these wild conspiracies.

JF
" . . . rather than address whether the outrage is warranted?"

It is not warranted. They are political appointees within the adminstration and as head of the administration, he can fire them or have them fired any time the president (either party) wants that action taken.

Clyde9



Bush's advisors
Please ignore the story as it is for a second.

I want you to think about the people who are addressing these issues for the administration. These folks are some of the "smartest" and most high powered folks in the country. They are experts with a word and spinning issues.

Could someone PLEASE explain the stupidity that I am seeing with these folks? At least it is stupidity in my biased mind.

You know that every word you say, under oath or not, is going to be recorded and compared against other things that you've said.

You probably have a staff of untold size that can go back and re-read things, including emails.

I am just amazed that various people will come out and make a definitive statement and two days later someone comes up with an email from that same person contradicting what they just said.

BTW, it isn't just this administration, this has happened in previous administrations.

At the same time, when you know the proverbial has hit the fan, wouldn't you think that you'd want to know what type of things were floating around that could hang you.

We all know of the CYA memo. I am just amazed!

Mister B
Do you even believe your own B.S? It's odd how for every trumped up charge you libtard's accuse Bush of, we can cite an real account of what Clinton did. History will remember Bush based on the outcome of the war in Iraq and the war against radical islam. Clinton will only be remembered for diddling an intern in the Oval office. Which probably was his crowning achievement!!!!!

Non-Story?
So would the Republicans have investigated this headline?

"Bill Clinton fires Monica Lewinsky!"

Just more symptoms of the fact...
...that the Democrats don't have an issue that people care about, nor do they have a plan for Iraq, short of retreat. So the public's attention has to be diverted to Bush. I think psychologists call it projection.

Fighting Back? TryFighting PERIOD.
Last week someone from the Republican National Committee called me for a donation (always meagre pocket change for some, but a lot for me)and I said "NO". I'm sick of Republicans not only NOT standing up for themselves, but for not attacking Democrats and liberalism and for abandoning simple conservative principals in the hopes of assuaging eternal political enemies.

The belly of the beast
-- I’d love to be a fly on the wall of a high school social studies class when a student timidly raises his hand and says to the teacher, “Um, Miss Smith – if President Clinton can fire all 93 U.S. attorneys for obvious political reasons, why can’t President Bush?” --

But our "educational" system, as it stands today, is the belly of the beast. Teachers confronted with this question will either ignore it or punish the questioner. Indeed, the preparatory indoctrination a student has already received by the time he's reached high school will normally prevent the question from being asked.

My American History teacher in 11th grade was that rare thing, a conservative. On the first day of class, he told us that he deplored the practice among his colleagues of treating American history as a succession of clashes between good guys (liberals) and bad guys (conservatives). He proposed to make the central question of the course whether men are basically good, evil, or something else.

Needless to say, the rest of the faculty hated him. But we loved him, and his course was one of the most genuinely instructive and consciousness-expanding I can remember.

Inkling revival ...
So you get your "facts" from the Wall Street Journal editorial pages. That explains a lot. At first I thought you were serious.
Some things that the notoriously right wing WSJ editorial staff omitted from their piece are:
Former GOP Chairman Chris Vance admitted that he tried to influence the investigation into the 2004 Washington election, as did Republican state representative Doc Hastings.

ajhil
Just for the record: you can say whatever biased, ridiculous pop psychology you like. Bill Clinton was a sociopath, sold our foreign policy to the Chinese, had more than 30 cronies and administration members convicted of felonies while he held office, was impeached and disbarred, threatened, bribed, and perverted witnesses in civil trials, and divided the nation like no previous President. I could not sleep at night if I had not done everything in my power to protect the nation from this f***ing gangster, and from the amoral partisan hacks like yourself who continue to excuse his blatant criminality.

ajhil
You wrote: "selectively firing U.S. Attorneys who refuse to engage in partisan prosecutions, so that they can be replaced with unqualified Republican cronies."

Let's see if the facts line up with your description:

"Take sacked U.S. Attorney John McKay from Washington state. In 2004, the Governor's race was decided in favor of Democrat Christine Gregoire by 129 votes on a third recount. As the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and other media outlets reported, some of the "voters" were deceased, others were registered in storage-rental facilities, and still others were convicted felons. More than 100 ballots were "discovered" in a Seattle warehouse. None of this constitutes proof that the election was stolen. But it should have been enough to prompt Mr. McKay, a Democrat, to investigate, something he declined to do, apparently on grounds that he had better things to do."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009784

So, let's hear why you think that close an election, with clear evidence of wrongdoing most likely by the Democrats, gets ignored by a Democrat US attorney, and replacing him is somehow to be considered improper partisanship by REPUBLICANS.

'Cause, to me, this sounds like something that DEMOCRATS should be ashamed of...if you folks had consciences.

Liberal... REALIST????
So, let's review a few pertinent facts:

1) The Clinton White House had private investigative file on hundreds of individuals in the White House basement, and nobody could give a reasonable explanation for why they were there, apart from "uh.... ooops."

2) Clinton White House operatives were famous for hardball politics, using terms like "scorched earth policy" and "Elaine Rometsch strategy" (J. Edgar Hoover was alleged to have used FBI files against Ms. Rometsch) to describe their approach to their political enemies.

3) President Clinton was heard and reported by his own aides to have threatened to use the IRS and FBI to harass his political enemies, saying "I'm the President of the United States. I reward my friends, and I f**k up my enemies." (This was in George Stephanopolous' book).

4) Everyone involved in the impeachment of Clinton had the most damaging personal information about themselves turned public.

And we're supposed to believe... Larry Flynt did it?

And you call yourself a "REALIST"?????

inkling_revival

'Everybody who ever touched the Clinton administration had private dirt turned public on them. Bob Livingston was Speaker of the House for about a week, then had to resign because embarrassing photos of him behaving badly at Washington parties somehow got turned up. Henry Hyde faced public humiliation as a 25-years-past affair got aired publicly, simply because he was heading the House investigation into Clinton's scandals. Ken Starr and Newt Gingrich both faced the equivalent of a public spanking machine, and left long-standing public service careers with approval ratings below 30%. No fewer than SIX former sex partners of President Billy reported receiving offers of jobs, threats, or both. Do you think this happens by accident?'


LOL I think you're giving Clinton credit for what Larry Flynt did.

to the last centurion
I for one would appreciate a reasoned fact based debate of the issues. I am a liberal who doesn't like Bush or his policies, would I would never label those who disagree as "America hating". Please stick to the facts and avoid the partisanship.

Another number to consider
There seems to be general agreement that whatever the motives, new administrations routinely replace the USAs of their predecessors when they take office. What they don't do is replace their own appointees in the middle of their term. According to Mort Zucker, this has only happened 5 times in the last 25 years. That is at least one reason why this round of mass firings is news but the Clinton firings were not.

Many of the posts here have repeated the line that the USAs serve at the pleasure of the President, but I think we need to remember that their first allegiance is the Law and impartiality.

Lastly, the real story here is not the firings themselves. It is the council to the President, and the chief of staff to Gonzales abusing provisions of the Patriot Act for politacal gain!

Clinton ...
doesn't bother me in the slightest. I didn't agree with some of his policies, like "free trade," but on his worst day, Clinton was infinitely preferable to Bush, who can barely recite the same speech that he's been practicing for more than six years without flubbing it. Face it: he's a moron.
Right wingers hate Clinton, because he booted Bush I out of the White House and then spent the next eight years running political rings around Republicans, who couldn't even beat him with a trumped up partisan impeachment about sex. He left office with a better than 60% approval rating (which he deserved) and Bush will be lucky to break 30% (which he also deserves.) So rave on, righties; your inferiority complex is all too obvious.

Clinton ...
doesn't bother me in the slightest. I didn't agree with some of his policies, like "free trade," but on his worst day, Clinton was infinitely preferable to Bush, who can barely recite the same speech that he's been practicing for more than six years without flubbing it. Face it: he's a moron.
Right wingers hate Clinton, because he booted Bush I out of the White House and then spent the next eight years running political rings around Republicans, who couldn't even beat him with a trumped up partisan impeachment about sex. He left office with a better than 60% approval rating (which he deserved) and Bush will be lucky to break 30% (which he also deserves.) So rave on, righties; your inferiority complex is all too obvious.

Clinton ...
doesn't bother me in the slightest. I didn't agree with some of his policies, like "free trade," but on his worst day, Clinton was infinitely preferable to Bush, who can barely recite the same speech that he's been practicing for more than six years without flubbing it. Face it: he's a moron.
Right wingers hate Clinton, because he booted Bush I out of the White House and then spent the next eight years running political rings around Republicans, who couldn't even beat him with a trumped up partisan impeachment about sex. He left office with a better than 60% approval rating (which he deserved) and Bush will be lucky to break 30% (which he also deserves.) So rave on, righties; your inferiority complex is all too obvious.

Jeffislouie
Say, did that probe referred to in your link as "would continue" actually continue with any merit?

Jeffislouie
Say, did that probe referred to in your link as "would continue" actually continue with any merit?

FACT
There is nothing Bush could have fired them for that wouldn't be construed as "political" by the leftist media and the hypocritical Bush haters (as if there's a difference).

And if you don't like having your putrid hypocrisy pointed out, too bad. Because, I love love love it.

You know what the absolute best example of corrupt partisan hack cynical selective moral outrage is?

The "feminist" response to Bill Clinton. Or should I say, the lack thereof.

And another thing. TOON WAS THE LAST PRESIDENT BEFORE THE CURRENT!!!!! We're not talking about the 19th century here. We're talking about THE LAST PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Comparisons are not only appropriate, they're OBLIGATORY.

I can see why leftist hacks don't like having TOON thrown in their hypocritical faces. It's like lifting up a big rock to see what crawls out. Too bad, so sad.

Case closed, hypocrites.

Buh Bye.

JF
Maybe conservatives would quit griping about the Clinton's wrongdoings when (never, won't happen) they get held accountable for some of them. Sadly, with the down stream media covering for them, nothing has or will happen to Billibabbla or Hillatola Clintahammud.

It's only a matter of time ...
It’s a testimony to the desperation of Republicans that they can devise no better defense for Bush & Co in the U.S. Attorney scandal than whining, “Clinton did it too.” Try as they may to conflate two different meanings of the term “political”, there’s a vast difference between replacing U.S. Attorneys en mass at the beginning of an administration, because they have a different political philosophy, and selectively firing U.S. Attorneys who refuse to engage in partisan prosecutions, so that they can be replaced with unqualified Republican cronies. The members of the Judicial Committee are well aware of this distinction, which explains why they will continue to probe this sordid mess. I think the right wing desperation stems from the fact that Bush himself, as well as Rove, was involved in the attempt to manipulate the DOJ.

A similar frantic air surrounds the effort by Republicans and the RWEC to minimize the implications of the Valerie Plame outing and probably for a similar reason: they have something worse to hide, in this case the involvement of Dick Cheney in forging the documents that were alleged to prove Saddam tried to buy uranium from Niger. Anything less threatening fails to explain the willingness of the White House to commit an act of naked treason.

Remember the masking tape on the door in the Watergate complex? We’re barely two and a half months into the new Congress, and hearings have already raised the spectre of “high crimes and misdemeanors” being proved against Bush, Cheney, or both. Don’t believe for a moment that impeachment is “off the table”! Nancy Pelosi was just playing smart. It’s going to be a great season for C-SPAN watchers … and a long, hot summer for the Chimp!

I predict he won’t finish his second term!

Hey Dogjudge!
"With the exception of Richard Nixon, no other President has used the DOJ to pursue his political adversaries!"

How about the FBI?

Oh, that's right. We're not allowed to bring that up. Sorry.


Clinton could do no wrong, B.S!!!!!
The reason nobody cared when Clinton fired all 93 attorneys is becuase according to the left and the Democrats Clinton could do no wrong, to them he was the greatest president of all time, the same president who didn't retaliate after two terrorist attacks, had sexual affairs with an intern whose name makes me sick to my stomach, who cut our intelligence spending, had three chances to kill Bin Laden and didn't hand over all of the information to the Bush administration, nor did he suggest checking Sandy Berger's pants.

Bush is far from the greatest president but is much better than Clinton, no matter what Bush does no matter how right it is he will be bashed for it and made out to be a bad guy all because of the America hating left wing fools and the confused and clueless Democratic party not to mention the in hopes of America falling and failing left wing media, their lies and propaganda male America look like crap everyday, the Clintons, Pelosi, Reid, Murtha and Kennedy all want America to fail, they thought Clinton could do no wrong and they think they can do no wrong, Bush could be responsible for launching an offensvie to get Bin Laden tomorrow and succeed but the left and moron hollywood fools like Richard (no talent) Geer and Rosie (know nothing America hating) O'Donnel would complain that Bin Laden was torchered. America needs to wake up and see that if we donn't change the attitude we have now we will fall and fail.

Dems trying to get more perjury charges
I bet a paid day off against a day old donut hole the Dems are going to subpoena some Bush Boys in an attempt to get someone to lie about something unrelated to this charade. The Boys are probably aware of this and scared to death something is going to be exposed that they do not want anyone to know, unless they commit perjury. This is probably the only kind of thing worth remembering about the Dem controlled congress for the next 18 months. I gotta go hurl.

JF
I just saw your post from 11:59 AM, sorry. Don't know how I missed it.

I read the link you posted, and I think the writer there is a bit confused. What most Presidents apparently do is allow the 4-year terms of attorneys appointed by their predecessors to expire, and then replace them with their own picks. Clinton broke with precedent by having his AG demand letters of resignation from all 93 early in his administration -- but apparently still let most of them serve out their 4-year terms. So what Rove said about Clinton was not fiction at all, but was, in fact, accurate.

What the Sampson memo talks about is something that makes the current situation a bit unusual: Bush is letting the 4-year terms of SOME OF HIS OWN APPOINTEES to run out, and then replacing him. This, Clinton did not do. But that's not what Rove was talking about. And it's hardly anything to get in a huff about, now, is it? Is it different from, say, asking Don Rumsfeld to step down? Bush letting the term of one of his own appointees to run out?

Finally, the writer quotes John Podesta making a gratuitous charge against Bush, for which he supplies no support: "...the Clinton administration never fired federal prosecutors as pure political retribution." I daresay the Bush administration never did, either. What I've heard suggests that the reasons included such things as A) poor leadership skills; B) viewing online pornography at the office; and C) Failure to carry out policy established by senior management (e.g., the Attorney General). Those are legitimate firing offenses, in my book.

The non scandalous scandal
A GREAT title indeed UNLESS the Bush admnistratiom mishandle it!

Visit: OsiSpeaks.com or OsiSpeaks.org

slacker
I still think it's a tempest in a teapot, as all the "scandals" of the Bush administration have been. And I don't see this as in any way Bush's fault, but simply the fault of the habitual screechers of the Democrat party, who begin with the assumption "All Republicans are criminals" and from that point, see every ordinary administrative act as evidence of corruption.

You note that "If Gonzales and Bush had simply asked the attorneys to resign and avoided lying about why they were replaced, the whole thing would have blown over."

A) I know perfectly well this isn't true; nothing any Republican does "blows over" so long as the press is the attack dog of the DNC. And

B) I haven't seen a single indication of anybody lying about anything. I HAVE seen some indication that the attorneys in question were not diligent about carrying out legitimate policy from the Attorney General. Vis:

"Take sacked U.S. Attorney John McKay from Washington state. In 2004, the Governor's race was decided in favor of Democrat Christine Gregoire by 129 votes on a third recount. As the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and other media outlets reported, some of the "voters" were deceased, others were registered in storage-rental facilities, and still others were convicted felons. More than 100 ballots were "discovered" in a Seattle warehouse. None of this constitutes proof that the election was stolen. But it should have been enough to prompt Mr. McKay, a Democrat, to investigate, something he declined to do, apparently on grounds that he had better things to do.

"In New Mexico, another state in which recent elections have been decided by razor thin margins, U.S. Attorney David Iglesias did establish a voter fraud task force in 2004. But it lasted all of 10 weeks before closing its doors, despite evidence of irregularities by the likes of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or Acorn. As our John Fund reported at the time, Acorn's director Matt Henderson refused to answer questions in court about whether his group had illegally made copies of voter registration cards in the run-up to the 2004 election."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009784

Finally, you ask: "How in the world can you conservatives support such an idiot?"

I don't particularly like most of his policies, but the constant stream of invective coming from the Left has to be answered, because to ignore it is to allow liars to write history. So I continue to push facts in the faces of the liars wherever I find them.


slacker
Yeah, except Bush isn't running in 08. It will all depend on the war in Iraq. If it turns around and starts showing signs of success, game over the Dems are finished.

inkling, thanks for calming down
and looking at the facts. Now you see that I have been right all along about the nature of this "scandal".

I'll ignore your digs at Clinton.

The only thing in your last post I'll bother to quibble with is the assertion that any of the fired attorneys were balking at investigating corruption on the part of democrats. I know that this has been asserted by certain senators and perhaps the political hacks in the white house, but no evidence that this is true has been presented.

Thanks to the incompentence of the Bush administration, this kerfluffle has legs now and the democrats aren't going to let go of it for a while. So I guess they'll haul everyone up in front of Congress and perhaps we will hear some evidence - if there is any (which I doubt).

At least it will be entertaining and will further erode public opinion of the Bush administration and by extension, republicans in general. A good thing, as an important election is coming up next year and the last thing we want is any chance that a republican will win.

One more thing...
It warms my heart to see the kerfluffle this idiot president has gotten into with his endless and disingenuous, spining, bloviating, and constant disembling on this. The more his power erodes the better.

If Gonzales and Bush had simply asked the attorneys to resiagn and avoided lying about why they were replaced, the whole thing would have blown over. But no, rather than tell the truth that the fired attorneys no longer pleased the president or AG, they had to go and spin some stupid story about how they were fired for incompetence rather than for political reasons.

Not only did this fire up the attorneys who were fired who then felt compelled to defend their competence and reputations, it offended the senators and anyone else who had recommended them to the AG, guaranteeing the kerfluffle and giving the new democratic congressional majority a chance to flex their muscles and kick sand in the president's face. All utterly forseeable.

Rove the vaunted political advisor must be getting tone deaf in his old age. And I can't resist saying it again: What an idiot Bush is.
How in the world can you conservatives support such an idiot?

The facts
I've been reading historical newspaper accounts from the beginnings of other Presidential terms for part of the afternoon, and know a bit more than I did earlier. Apparently I've been misled somewhat.

It is, in fact, not uncommon for Presidents to replace US Attorneys when they take office. They generally do it by allowing the terms of the sitting attorneys (they get a 4-year term) to run out, and then replace them with a candidate of their choosing. It's apparently been kind of a gentleman's agreement to ix-nay on the the olitics-pay, but Presidents do tend to pick their own US Attorneys.

What was unusual about the Clinton Admin was not that he replaced all the US Attorneys, but that he announced his intent early in his administration, demanding 93 letters of resignation in 10 days. Also, it's not ordinary for the President to fire US Attorneys that have open investigations against them, and that appears to be a clear conflict of interest. So Clinton's acts were abrupt, administratively clumsy, and shady, to say the least.

The Dems are trying to make the current situation sound unusual in that they occur mid-term. This is a bit disingenuous; the emails from the Justice Dept, which were aired yesterday, make it clear that they've been contemplating these firings since the beginning of the 2nd term, and the list of candidates to be fired was generated pretty much immediately after the 2004 election. Like the Clinton firings, administratively clumsy.

They're also trying to make hay from the fact that the Bush administration has been trying to prosecute Democrat voter fraud, and the firings seems to be related to certain attorneys' unwillingness to do that. So, the President asks an attorney to investigate voter fraud by Democrats, and the attorney -- a Democrat -- balks. That doesn't strike me as a Republican scandal, frankly. It's a Democrat scandal.

That's where it is, folks.

Jeffislouie and Inkling_revival
You are correct, I am not arguing that Bush can't fire any of his US attorneys, including the AG. He obviously can and has the constitution on his side.

I do enjoy the turmoil this has caused and the contribution of the hullabaloo to the weakening of the power of the executive branch of government for the remainder of Bush's term.

I will be the first to admit that I dislike this administration intensely just as many conservatives had a total disgust of the Clinton administration. In addition to the reasons I gave before, I oppose Bush's constant interjection of partisan politics into every aspect of government. I don't like his constant focus on the accumulation of as much naked power as possible into the executive branch of the federal government at the expense of congress and state and local governments.

I don't like the way the Bush administration uses the power they have accumulated to run roughshod over anyone that disagrees with them. I don't the way Bush has used the power of the executive branch to start a disasterous war he can't win or finish. I don't like the way Bush ignores valid evidence that the war he started is going badly and is having exactly the opposite results he intended to achieve.

I don't trust that future administrations will relinquish any of the power has been accumulated or that they will necessarily be any wiser or more benevolent in the application of this power than the Bush administration has been.

I am glad that there is now a congress that has started regrowing its spine and is finally willing to stand up to Bush. Thank the good lord the democrats won back control last year. I am especially glad that Bush himself will be off the political stage in less than 20 months.

Don't forget that Hillary Clinton or Barrack Obama or some other person you disklike intensely may very well be the next president. I doubt you will be cheering them on to accumulate even more authority in the executive branch and applauding their every use of it to run over state or local objections to a liberal agenda.

Everyone
I think it is comical to see all of the energy put into this whole thing. I don't really care who Reagan, Clinton, or Bush fired. It is their right to do so for whatever reason. why should I care if a bunch of overpaid politcal appointees from either side of the aisle get canned? I also think its funny how conservatives (of which I am one) use Clinton (the biggest Presidential slimebag in history) to justify anything they do and I think its even more humorous the lengths libtards will go to make GWB look bad. One of these libiot posts even mentioned the term "your President". Now if that isn't indicative of the problem we have as a nation these days I don't know what is. Until Clinton began sodomizing interns with cigars, despite the fact I never voted for him, he was my President too but he completely dishonored the office and embarased the nation (at least the half of us that can actually be embarassed). You libdrools gotta get over the BDS thing because the next president will be a Republican too (sine Dimocrats will just get us beheaded) and the country just can't take anymore of this cr@p OK?

So, will...
...did you have any rebuttal for the factual information I provided in my posts?

No?

JF: Glue Huffer
Let ME dumb it down for You. The media/leftists/glue huffers and other assorted bedwetters are hyperventilating over the supposedly unprecedented politcal nature of these firings. My point was that the entire process of putting "your people" in is inherently political by intent and always has been. But to the extent that there have been varying degrees of political machinations in different administrations, none can lay a hand on the Clintons for elevating the political element to new heights.

But whether or not the process is politically biased is irrelevent. When an appointee serves at the President's pleasure, it doesn't matter what his reasons are, nor does he have to explain them to anyone - even if he fires all 93 of them at once, at the beginning, end, or in piecemeal fashion. If the president doesn't like the job one of his appointees is doing for whatever reason, he can boot the guy out. And if the Congress doesn't like the job the president is doing, they can boot him out.

Do You Folks Have a Sense of Humor?
I just saw a great line, at least I thought it was a great line.

For those defending Gonzales one phrase that has been used consistently is that all of the attorneys sit at the pleasure of the President.

Funny. You can apply that to Bill Clinton and Monica, she sat at the pleasure of the President.

Another Reagan replacement
Edward F. Harrington -District of Massachusetts
8/1/77 - 11/1/81

Hmm. Another Reagan replacement almost 2 years after taking office. The lib argument that Reagan replaced them all isn't looking so good!!

Let the hilarity continue!
JF wrote:

“You can not decide to hire and fire USAs based on the fact that they decided to prosecute your political allies (or not prosecuate your political foes).”

To which I responded (after having made the qualification that there was no evidence that the USAs were being punished for prosecuting political allies):

“YES YOU CAN”

To this, JF amazingly rebuts with this bit of rhetorical genius:

“YES YOU CAN *LEGALLY*. IF CONGRESS INVESTIGATES AND FIND THAT BUSH DID THIS, THERE WILL BE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT WRITTEN.”

Haha! Do you know what warrants impeachment? Of course not, you’re a Chomskite; the Constitution is an anathema to you, only to be selectively misused to advance your Leninist agenda. A President shall only be impeached for HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEAMEANORS. Did you get that? You can not impeach the President for “dirty political tricks” or the “politicization of the DOJ”, or whatever other dishonest and inane slurs you knuckleheads incessantly repeat.

Incredibly, JF continues:

“All you Right Wing Conspiracy Nuts say Clinton fired all 93 to get at 1 USA, and you dare ask me to prove my assertions?

I don't have to prove anything...The investigations currently happening on the Hill will either prove or disprove that theory...”

Wow! Did you hear that one? He doesn’t have to “prove anything”. He can just say things, no matter how absurd or illogical, and hope that a hypothetical investigation by a partisan Congress will vindicate him. That’s a hell of an intellectual standard you set for yourself. Of course, being intellectually honest, I agree with you that it is irresponsible to say that Clinton fired all 93 USAs to get to one. However, the point is that accusing Bush of doing this, while giving Clinton a free pass is HYPOCRITICAL.

To Our Liberal Friends:
Truth in advertising: I copied and pasted this from Byrd's column -- in case you missed it.
-------------------------------------------

To Our Liberal Friends...

... of which there are many here today.

Perhaps a couple of quotes from from the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahan (D-NY) might be in order:

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

-and

"The liberal left can be as rigid and destructive as any force in American life."

Wise words -- from one of your own.

typo
1980

Mister Buck
Charles Banks, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Arkansas was the investigating attorney.

Also another interesting little factoid, his predecessor George W Proctor served from 1979 to 1987. How can this possibly be when Reagan Replaced all of them in 1981?

Mister Buck
If these were days in which duels were legal, I'd challenge you to a duel. I NEVER lie.

That being said, I'm done talking with you. You're a partisan hack, incapable of independent reason, and there's no point in conversing.

Bye.

Kool Aid by Twos!
You fired an atty,
no you did it first!

whhhha you did

no, no, you did and I'll tell mommie

you better not I'LL TELL DADDY CLINTON

gee look at the bright side, at last some dang
lawyer got fired, its a good thing that at least

Thrasybulus writes:
“You can not decide to hire and fire USAs based on the fact that they deicided to prosecute your political allies (or not prosecuate your political foes).

YES YOU CAN"

YES YOU CAN *LEGALLY*. IF CONGRESS INVESTIGATES AND FIND THAT BUSH DID THIS, THERE WILL BE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT WRITTEN.

All you Right Wing Conspiracy Nuts say Clinton fired all 93 to get at 1 USA, and you dare ask me to prove my assertions?

I don't have to prove anything...The investigations currently happening on the Hill will either prove or disprove that theory...

And as far as the voter fraud piece, I guess stauch conservatives McKay and Iglesias were not conservative enough to make charges stick where there where none...These weren't crazy liberals defending thier own...These were Bush appointed USAs who saw no wrong doing...

Of course in the Conservative World View, it's alawys important to come up with your version of the truth first and then cherry pick the facts to prove your version of the truth (See: Iraq War)...It's called Truthiness...

JF continues drooling:


“Here's the distinction (and the assertion that Congress is probing right now): These specific 8 firings were made in response to specific Republican complaints that these USAs were not being aggressive enough in pursuing Democratic corruption cases (Iglesias, McKay) or that they were being too aggressive in pursuing Republican corruption (Lam). You all are probably correct that, from a strict legal standpoint, the Administration did not break the law (although you might be able to make an Obstruction of Justcie charge stick...maybe).”

That is NOT a substantive distinction. There’s NOTHING ethically dubious or—as you concede—illegal about firing US attorneys who choose to look the other way in the face of egregious voter fraud. As for USAs being fired for being too aggressive in pursuing Republicans, I say to you PROVE IT. Where are you getting this? Is it one of your idiotic left-wing conspiracy theories? Most likely.

You write

“You can not decide to hire and fire USAs based on the fact that they deicided to prosecute your political allies (or not prosecuate your political foes).”

YES YOU CAN



No reason for outrage, clearly....
As I have clearly pointed out many times, the code is clear here.
The addition to the Patriot Act has no bearing. Yes, Clinton replaced all USA's.
No, it wasn't improper (legally speaking).
just like it isn't improper to do so now.
Just because the 'custom' is to provide notice and give a reason (or dump them all at the beginning of the administration), there is no requirement that anyone is given notice, nor is there a requirement that anyone is given a reason. The code clearly states that the President can dismiss any USA for any reason, given or not, at any time, in the beginning, middle or end of their term.
SO, if your only argument is built around this nonsensical concept of impropriety based on length of notice of a lack of expressed determinations, then you really have no argument as this does not matter one stinkin' bit.
SO, why the outrage?
Here's the funny part - when people who can't figure out why the manufactured rage exists bring up Clinton, those on the left make excuses for Clinton. Then they turn around and claim (falsely) that there is a precedent here. There is none. Nowhere is it written that the President is limited to a timeline or reasoning to fire any USA. As a matter of pure fact, the code states otherwise. The US Code that governs USA's is clear - USA's serve at the pleasure of the President. The President can fire USA's at any time, for any reason. Constitutionally, this was a valid termination. Morally, this was a valid termination. SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM REALLY?
Is it that the USA's that were fired were refusing to investigate serious allegations of voter fraud perpetrated by Democrats? Are you worried that a new USA might pursue such an investigation faithfully?
By the way, here is a link to the Clinton/Reno terminations:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978161,00.html

"Last Tuesday, after being on the job only 11 days, Attorney General Janet Reno had the Justice Department moving and shaking. She requested the prompt resignation of all 93 U.S. Attorneys around the country "to build a team" that represents "my views" and those of the President. Although expected eventually, the move triggered alarms at the Washington prosecutorial office, which has been probing the finances of a key Democratic floor captain, House Ways and Means chairman Dan Rostenkowski. Reno insists there was "no linkage"' between the dismissals and the probe, which insiders say will continue."

There was a "real" reason for concern there. The theory at the time was that the USA's were being fired because of political ties Clinton and Rostenkowski shared. By the way, Rosetenkowski was later investigated, indicted, and convicted. And then Clinton pardoned him anyway.
I wonder what the liberals will say when Bush pardons people at the end of his Presidency.

My Guess? They will call him a criminal and point out the immorality of his pardons. The moment anyone brings up Mark Rich or the other criminals Clinton pardoned, they will likely face the same nonsense that is provided here- ramblings about how it wasn't so bad when Clinton did it for one reason or another, but IS bad because Bush did it.
After all, Bush bad.
Clinton GOOD!
This story is nonsense and the liberals pushing it here, and all over the news, are working a sham smear campaign that relies on the ignorance of Mr. and Mrs. Joe and Jane America.

Firing Attorneys
I opened the posting door a little while ago, and common sense walked out. He had been waiting at the exit for hours since there were precious few takers of his wisdom.

My skeleton in the closet is that I was a Democrat when I first left high school. I learned very quickly the folly of my ways, and I changed to Republican. I never regretted that action. And please understand, I did this before the crazy liberals grabbed power in the Democrat Party.

So I ask all of you, is there someway I can leave the Democrat Party again? Nothing else has worked with those strange and ranting party diehards.

Posters, please discuss real facts. Too many of you are spouting as facts, items you read in the MSM. How intellectual is that? I never heard any eye-witness stories about anything.

Never mind who did what when. It's past history, and there's nothing we can do about it. The attorneys work at the pleasure of the President. So if he feels the loss of pleasure, he can fire any of them.

I'm tired of Democrats and you liberal posters believing that the Congress is the be-all fallback for everything.

Three branches of government were instituted. Let them each work as created.

The attorneys do not work at the pleasure of Congress.

And I certainly don't get any pleasure from Congress.


Thrasybulus
Ok...now we are getting somewhere...

I would agree with everyone here that the president can hire and fire USAs, as they are political appointees. Wow...now we have 2 points of agreement...

Here's the distinction (and the assertion that Congress is probing right now): These specific 8 firings were made in response to specific Republican complaints that these USAs were not being aggressive enough in pursuing Democratic corruption cases (Iglesias, McKay) or that they were being too aggressive in pursuing Republican corruption (Lam). You all are probably correct that, from a strict legal standpoint, the Administration did not break the law (although you might be able to make an Obstruction of Justcie charge stick...maybe).

But this is clearly an ABUSE OF POWER by the Executive branch. While I would not advocate impeachment because I enjoy watching this administration twist in the wind with each breaking scandal, I would argue that an abuse of power like this is what impeachment was designed for.

You can not decide to hire and fire USAs based on the fact that they deicided to prosecute your political allies (or not prosecuate your political foes).

Bonus trouble (which no republican on this board has touched): All of the Justice department went to Congress and lied about the rationale for firing these people. That is why Gonzales's COS resigned. If nothing improper happened, why are people resigning and why is Bush saying "Mistakes were made" (a phrase that harkens back to another Republican era).




JF
You're probably hopeless, but I'll try anyway:

The salient point is NOT that CLINTON fired all 93 attorneys. Nor is the salient point that Reagan and George H.W. Bush may have done the same (the fact that you’re unable to cite a reliable source for this assertion makes me somewhat skeptical, but in either event, it’s a moot point). The salient fact IS that there is NO SUBSTANTIVE distinction between firing all 93 attorneys at the BEGINNING of a term for POLITICAL REASONS and firing 8 US Attorneys in the middle of a term for POLITICAL REASONS. I repeat: there’s NO SUBSTANTIVE distinction. Again, you brainwashed Chomskites are incapable of even articulating why your panties are in a bunch, much less invoking logic to support your arguments.

SandMan
Ugh....

"It is true that Janet Reno, as her predecessors before her had done, asked for the resignations of U.S. Attorneys. This is standard operating procedure designed to allow the President to have in place his own federal prosecutors. What is different about this current episode is that a Republican White House sought to replace Republican-appointed federal prosecutors mid-stream who were by all accounts doing precisely what they had been asked to do. We now know, from last week’s testimony, why in some cases this was so and the answers we got make it clear that the reasons were not high-minded or lofty."

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2007/03/14/publiceye/entry2571144.shtml

slacker
I applaud you for attempting to talk sense to a crowd that believes in defending thier own at any cost....

I still remember the posts on how Mark Foley was just a dupe of high school kids looking to pull a prank...

You can say a million times that both Reagan and Bush43 either fired or accepted the resignations of all USAs at the start of thier terms, and these folks will not listen...Bush41 didn't do it because he was part of the Reagan administration and shared the same priority / ideology as Reagan...

If you want to hang your hat on Bush41, go right ahead...but it doesn't make sense...

The silver lining is that the people on this board are the far right wing nuts that don't have a voice outside this forum...Gonzales will be toast by summer at the latest...And then they can all whine about how Democrats and the MSM are out to get them once again...Whah...

Distinction between Reagan & Clinton
I haven't read every post to know if this has been addressed yet, but the Liberalgoodman post of 8:43 am is incorrect. Prior to the Clinton administration, U.S. attorneys were normally replaced as their staggered terms expired. Anyone who doesn’t understand that the practice of replacing attorneys of opposing political leanings isn’t in itself a political act probably shouldn’t be allowed outside unsupervised. But the utter crassness of replacing them all at once, as the Clintonistas did was unprecedented, and smacks of the political purges more commonly seen in totalitarian or post-revolutionary regimes.

With apologies to Billy Dale and the rest of his travel office colleagues, in an administration that rewrote the book on political gutter-wallowing, the firing of all U.S. attorneys at once probably rates the most egregious political act of all.

And slacker, one more time
I've been reading the news accounts of the incident, and still can't find any indication of the things you say are the true basis for the concern.

You mentioned two "PERSONAL PRACTICES" (your emphasis):

1) "Not giving them the courtesy of notice."

The announcements of the firings were made on Dec 7, 2006. They take effect on March 13, 2007. That sounds like roughly 3 months' notice to me.

Care to elaborate?

2) "giving inaccurate reasons [a euphemism for telling a LIE about the reasons] for terminating them".

Here I have to laugh. This is a clear instance of Democrats inventing moral imperitives for the need of the moment, as they do so frequently. You know as well as I do that when a person is fired, the genuine reasoning is almost never mentioned. "We feel as though you don't fit in very well." "We no longer need your services." "We're down-sizing the department." This is, unfortunately, a consequence of liberal legislators tying the hands of employers, taking away Constitutionally-guaranteed liberties in the name of "protecting fairness" and such, which makes it illegal to fire an employee because "You're an uncooperative jerk, and nobody here likes you."

You can invent moral imperitives easily, if you have no genuine principles. But just because you invent them, doesn't mean anybody with genuine morals has to take you seriously.

Democrats believe they can see into Republican hearts and see clear motives for appointing attorneys who will "go along with the Bush Administration." In every job I've ever held, cooperating with the senior management is a requirement, and acting in such a way as to negate the policy direction of senior management is a firing offense. This is as it should be.

No, I'm not scandalized. This is just another in a long string of Democrat, Bush-derangement-inspired faux scandals, attempting to cover Democrat guilt over defending the clearly criminal acts of a sociopath from 1993-2000.

wrong, wrong WRONG!
"Clinton didn't remove federal prosecutors because they were politically unreliable.

Get the difference? It's like being in the Soviet Union. ONLY Good Party Members may serve."

Who cares? The President can fire any US Attorney for any damn reason he wants!
You can bray all you want about how it smacks of communism, or pretend it was unconstitutional, but the fact remains that it is completely allowable and not morally or legally incorrect.

Slacker - So your whole beef with the firing is that innaccurate reasons were given for the terminations and that they weren't given the 'courtesy of notice'? That is hardly a story.
So you, the left, and a couple of spineless republicans are all in a tizzy because they weren't given 2 weeks notice and they weren't told why they were fired? Here's the deal - the President can terminate them at any time, for any reason. He has no stated or implied responsibility to let them know why they are no longer employed, nor is he required by any law to provide them with any notice.
If he wanted, he could simply change the locks to their office and staple a hand written note saying "U R Fired."
If that's what this is all about, it makes it all the more ridiculous.

Mister Buck
As is usually the case when a Democrat accuses someone of moral insufficiency of any kind, they've got their facts wrong. Of course, character assassination is the only thing Democrats do well.

The Worldnet reporter, unfortunately, misled you by misstating the case. Ray didn't exactly "clear" the Clintons on filegate; he announced that he did not have sufficient evidence to prosecute. The facts remain exactly as I stated: a crime WAS committed, but the Clintons claimed ignorance and incompetence, and without further evidence, there was no basis to charge any specific individual with the crime.

This stands in clear contradistinction to the various Bush administration "scandals," in which the burning question every time is whether a crime has actually been committed (so far, despite 6 years of non-stop screeching by Democrats, not a single "scandal" has been the result of anything even remotely criminal.)

Any objective observer can read your posts, and then read mine, and make a clear determination which of us is interested in facts, and which is spewing hatred.

So,?
What ya gonna do when both brands of Kool Aid runs out?

Many need to think of who it is who keeps mixing it up and keeps the glass full and ready to drink.

slacker
See, the problem is that Mr. Gerson is factually wrong. President Reagan did NOT replace all the sitting US Attorneys. If he had, there would have been a scandal, because that was entirely unprecendented. He allowed all the US attorneys to finish their appointed terms before replacing them, which was (in actual fact) the usual practice.

Now, if you can post a newspaper article from 1983 with the headline "Reagan fires all US Attorneys", I'll believe it. I may do the research myself, since Democrats are gratuitously throwing this canard around as though it were factual (Democrats are good at making up "facts," but poor at admitting it, having no genuine principles). But I've been around a long time, and remember the Carter and Reagan administrations very clearly, and there was no report of mass firings that I can recall.

farglebargle
Sorry but your comment doesn't make any sense. Clinton removed them because one was investigating "dear leader" and another was investigating the head of the ways and means committee. The Constitution is on the side of the President.

farglebargle
OMG!!!!!! Talk about the kettle calling the china black...

"Clinton didn't remove federal prosecutors because they were politically unreliable."

No, he removed them because one of them was hot on his trail in Arkansas, and he replaced that one with a personal acquaintence. All 93 were fired as a smokescreen to cover the one, significant firing, where Clinton and his demure frau had a clear conflict of interest.

Bush removed one of the US Attorney's because, despite an election settled in favor of the Democrat by less than 200 votes after 3 recounts, and despite clear evidence that voter rolls had included deceased voters, and despite the fact that ballots had been found in a warehouse, the US Attorney (a Democrat) refused to investigate because he had "better things to do."

Democrats are criminals.

Inkling_revival, Even Better.
You issued a challenge for
"documentary evidence from a real historian, demonstrating that ANY President before or after Bill Clinton fired the entire staff of US Attorneys."

I will answer the challenge and EXPLAIN ALL....

Here is a quote from Stuart M. Gerson, acting attorney general at the start of the CLINTON administration on the "history" of this and that Reagan also did it... Now read carefully because the true issue requires some thought (which is usually difficult for most conservatives) as opposed to knee-jerk reaction....

"It is customary for a President to replace U.S. Attorneys at the beginning of a term. RONALD REAGAN REPLACED EVERY SITTING U.S. ATTORNEY when he appointed his first Attorney General. President CLINTON, acting through me as Acting Attorney General, DID THE SAME THING, even with few permanent candidates in mind. What is UNUSUAL ABOUT THE CURRENT SITUATION is that it happened in the middle of a term. However, all of the incumbents had served more than the four years presumed in their original commission and, I suggest, REPLACING THEM IS ENTIRELY THE PREROGATIVE OF THE EXECUTIVE, as each deposed U.S. Attorney has agreed."

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/03/13/DI2007031300985.html

So, Clinton AG is NOT disagreeing with you that Bush has the right and power to fire any of these folks he wants, and neither am I.

NOW HERE IS THE MAIN POINT and where conservatives have to pay attention and LISTEN. It explains why everyone is all in a tizzy about this event even though BOTH SIDES agree NO LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN. Pay attention while I quote from Gerson again:

"The PERSONNEL PRACTICES employed, giving inaccurate reasons [a euphemism for telling a LIE about the reasons] for terminating them and not giving them the courtesy of notice, are, as the AG now CONCEDES, UNACCEPTABLE."

This is why Gonzales is in such hot water. This is the issue that resonates with the public that something is wrong here. People don't like public officials who bloviate, dissemble, spin, and otherwise LIE about what they are doing. Clinton found this out. Bush is finding this out now too.

This is the reason that Gonzales needs to go. This is the reason Bush is such a lousy president. I think either Bush is incompetent, or he has staffed the executive branch with incompetents, or both. I think both are true.

Take heart. There is only about 20 months now before we have the pleasure of "firing" Bush, the worst president in many generations.

dogjudge
I posted nothing but factual information, identifying the incorrect factual basis of your argument. If you can't say "Oh, I guess I got it wrong," then you've got a little growing up to do.

Even AFTER the Republicans took over Congress in 1995, they did not initiate gratuitous investigations into the Clintonistas the way Democrats did against Gingrich in the House, or the way they're doing now against the Bush administration (a string of investigations into non-scandals). When the Attorney General was FINALLY forced to authorize an investigation of Whitewater and witness-tampering in Paula Jones' lawsuit, it was under pressure from seven DEMOCRATS, led by Sen Daniel Patrick Moynahan of New York (one of those rare birds, a genuinely honest Democrat).

It's easy being a Republican. The facts are always on our side, and the Democrats are never consistent.

dogjudge
Perception is reality can be a very dangerous concept. When perception is purposely skewed by those trusted to present the facts (read MSM) then the reality can be disasterous. I believe it was Goebels who said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it"

Politically Unreliable!
Clinton didn't remove federal prosecutors because they were politically unreliable.

Get the difference? It's like being in the Soviet Union. ONLY Good Party Members may serve.

Since the administration is very vulnerable to criminal charges ( See Elizabeth de la Vega's book ) it's no surprise they'd do a purge based on allegience to the President, rather than to the Constitution.


Bush and Republicians on the Defensive
It is a shame that President Bush and his administration constantly apologizes for any and everything the Democrats do not like. I want anyone to tell me what, if anything, that George Bush has done that the Democrats have liked. Bush and his administration keep enabling the Dems and the liberal media by even responding to their stupid objections. I know what the Dems are all about and the tactics that they use to win and keep office. I just wish the Repbulican party would start treating the Dems like a bunch of little children and send them to their rooms and stop arguing with them.

Apoplectic
As I've said many a time before, perception is reality.

Are the Democrats and MSM blowing this out of proportion? I don't know for certain. That's where your perception comes into play.

I do think there is a difference in perspective about what the TRUE issue is.

As I've said, from a management point of view, I don't have a problem with Bush firing one or ninety three of the attorneys. As with the state of Illinois, where I live, employers can fire anyone for any reason. Don't like the way you combed your hair this morning.

Unfortunately, the Department of Justice is in a very unique position. They are under the control of the President (they have to be under somebody's control). At the same time they are supposed to be impartial about who and what they go after. Without that impartiality you start to have much larger problems.

Are Congressional investigations free from politics? You'd have to be from another planet to believe that.

At the same time, it's one of the responsibilities of Congress to oversee the President. Again, that's one of the reasons we elect them.

If the President decided to fire everyone in his administration that was African American, he has the right to do so. At the same time Congress has the right to investigate it. It can then go from there.

Incredibly, JF drools the following:
“Clinton's firings were for performance reasons”


Haha! That is an amazing assertion. What you’re saying is that all 93 USAs were incompetent and Clinton new this immediately upon coming to power, despite never having initiated a venting process. You don’t REALLY believe that, DO you?

As for the rest of your post, Inkling did a nice job of pointing out that not only is your reasoning absurd, but you simply don’t have your facts straight.

dogjudge
The Republicans didn't investigate because there was nothing to investigate. Same as now. The firings are perfectly legal!!!!!

inkling revival
Not that it' going to change your mind I'm sure...

But I'll take up your challenge:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/13/sampson-rove-attorney/

Here is an email from Gonzales's COS, Kyle Sampson, stating that neither Reagan nor Clinton did what Shrub is doing now...


Seriously, explain it to me. Really....
"Let's assume that what Clinton did was wrong."
Why? It wasn't.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a President firing a US attorney at any time.
The only problem anyone should have with that is that he did it as one US Attorneys was about to indict a key Democrat (Rosetenkowski) and several others were investigating Bill Clinton.
Other than that, no problems.
The United States Code is clear on this:
The President of the United States can remove any of the US Attorneys at his own discretion.
Period.
Here's the code:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode28/usc_sec_28_00000541----000-.html
"Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President. "

So I will ask again - WHERE IS THE CONTROVERY? Please explain it to me.

There is no abuse of power here, as slacker and many other liberals (and a few spineless twits from the right) are claiming.
The President can, at any time and for any reason, dismiss a US Attorney.
Again - WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
Why aren't you libs pissed off at your elected officials for trying to manipulate you through the media?

inkling_revival
So the Republicans couldn't have investigated Clinton when they came into power?

They did not appear to have any problems investigating anything else with Clinton.

Sounds a little disingenuous argument to me.

I'll ignore the rest of your comments as being biased blather.


dogjudge
what Clinton did was politically wrong but perfectly legal. Same as what Bush has done. I'm not defending either, just pointing out the hipocrisy of both the Democrats and the MSM. This is a complete non-issue that once again has turned into a witchhunt by the MSM and the Democratic party. Frankly, I just get annoyed when the Media preys on the stupidity of the public.

dogjudge
As Inkling pointed out, that's completely false. Dems had both the house and senate.

Intellectual honesty
doesn't exist in the liberal mind does it? What Clinton did was not customary and usual. It was NOT done in the Reagan Administration. As has been pointed out many times, before Clinton there was a gentlemen's agreement to replace them as their terms expired to keep continuity in the DOJ.

dogjudge
" Let's assume that what Clinton did was wrong.

You had a Republican controlled Congress at the time that should have investigated the matter then and there.

Correct or not?"

Not.

Republicans did not control Congress -- EITHER house -- until 1995, the result of the 1994 election cycle. Clinton fired the US Attorneys in 1993.

So I don't even have to go into just how utterly ridiculous the rest of your analysis is. Your facts are wrong to begin with.

Earth to JF...
JF wrote; "Both Clinton and Bush fired ALL of the USAs at the start of thier presidency!"

Not.

Clinton did. Neither Bush 41 nor Bush 43 did this.

I'm offering a general challenge here, and I'm really listening for the response: ANYBODY, can you post me documentary evidence from a real historian, demonstrating that ANY President before or after Bill Clinton fired the entire staff of US Attorneys.

Apoplectic
Let's assume that what Clinton did was wrong.

You had a Republican controlled Congress at the time that should have investigated the matter then and there.

Correct or not?

The extension of that logic is what Clinton did was wrong. The Republicans didn't investigate this. What President Bush is doing may or may not be wrong, but the Democrats shouldn't investigate it because the Republicans didn't investigate Clinton.

Am I missing something?

Rampant BDS going global
NEWS FLASH

Exclusive!

Karl Rove has admitted to firing attorneys, starting the civil war in Iraq, outing Joe Wilson's concubine, and claims he's the sole source of global warming.......claims also to have found inoculation for BDS, but refuses to release it's formula.......liberals, poor women and children hardest hit.

I can hardly contain my joy ...
... over the fact that the democrats have regained control of Congress. What a relief to have the possibility of some real oversight of this rogue administration's abuse of power.

Sure, as has been pointed out many times, the attorneys serve at the priviledge of the president who heads the executive branch. That is handled by having them, like all political appointees submit their resignations at the beginning of a presidential term (Reagan, Clinton did that). But it does not extend to routinely having political operatives and hacks like Rove and Miers watching over them and telling the justice department to fire them if they are not "politically correct."

Once they are appointed to their terms they should be managed by the attorney general not micromanaged from the white house. That's why Gonzales has to go. If he is not capable of performing his job without the help of the Rove and the white house on the Bush should just get rid of him and hire someone who can do the basics of any management job: hiring and evaluating the performance of the people who report to him.

Bush is president but not a king. Thank goodness for a Congress that finally has the backbone to stand up to him. Bush and Rove should have thought of that before they sent their minions up to Congress to lie and say these people were fired for performance reasons. I would have had more respect for them if they had just told the truth. They should have just said "these guys report to the president and he can fire them any time he wants. Bush asked us to fire them because they were investigating republican corruption and we wanted them to stop that and investigate only democratic party corruption, especially before a close election."

Even some intelligent republicans see that the administration has gone too far this time. Sure Gonzales must be fired. But the real person we need to fire is Bush. Too bad we have to wait 20 months for that pleasure.

dogjudge
Most of the time, you seem quite rational. Then you come out with statements like
"You should be well aware of the FACT that what Clinton did and what Bush did are NOT the same thing at all.

Both Clinton's firings and Bush's firings were politically motivated and both were perfectly legal. The only difference is Bush fired them because he didn't think they pursued democrat criminal behavior as zealously as they should (most firings, not all), Clinton fired them to cover his own criminal behavior.

93>8?
The more correct analogy folks is 8>2...or perhaps 101>95...

To the guy who used the brilliant analysis comparing Clinton's firings to Bush's...

Both Clinton and Bush fired ALL of the USAs at the start of thier presidency! Clinton fired only 2 USAs during his term, while Bush fired 8 (with the current email dump showing plans for more).

Clinton's firings were for performance reasons (one of his firings had to do with a USA assaulting a photographer). Bush's firings were for not prosecuting enough voter fraud (read: supposed Democratic corruption) cases.

You know those Career Builder commericals where the guy is having a difficult time working in an enviornment with monkeys? I know understand what that guy feels like...

here's the actual United States Code-
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode28/usc_sec_28_00000541----000-.html

Please note the following:
"Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President."

So please tell me where the controversy is?
Really. I'd like to know.
Because as far as I can tell, the REAL controversy is that the left and the spineless Republicans pandering to the left don't seem to be interested in the actual code that governs the office. Odd, don't you think, that our elected officials don't care about, you know, silly facts that contradict their heated accusations?
WHERE IS THE DAMN CONTROVERSY?
Because I don't get it.
The President is authorized to remove any US Attorney for any reason and at any time.
So why the outrage?
Why the anger?
Why are these idiots allowed to govern? If you want to talk about accountability, then we need to look at the people making a stink about a perfectly on the level firing!
These people are distracting America and using the media to try to create a scandal where none exists.

Disturbed?
driveby wrote: "I don't care whether you are conservative or liberal, what Domenici did should disturb everyone."

It would, if it didn't happen every damn day. Senators FREQUENTLY talk to US Attorneys and attempt to push things in a general direction.

Personally, I'd like to have seen the US attorney's office look harder at Democrat voter fraud. There was clearly a lot of it going on; there always is.

JP
As I said before, what Clinton did or didn't do is immaterial.

Yes, Congress cannot question IF the President can fire these attorneys. Agreed. Congress CAN question/investigate the matter if they think these attorneys were fired for reasons that are crimes. Things such as obstruction of justice.

As far as subpoenas are concerned, they can issue them to get information. Could you please explain to me how you think you get information to prove a crime without investigating it?

I think it's a little premature to start assigning motives to Congress on this issue. They haven't looked into it that far. Also keep in mind that it isn't just the Democrats who are concerned about what is going on here, there are also some Republicans who want to know a little more about all of this.

One unfortunate things about the last six years was that Congress essentially gave away their power of oversight. Whether you like it or not, it should be very normal for Congress to continually check into the actions of the President. That's one of the reasons we put them there!

Mister Buck, dogjudge
Buck wrote: " Who did they destroy? Can we get ONE Republican DESTROYED by the Clinton political machine? We heard about Filegate - which the Clinton's were CLEARED on, sp, please, LieKat - some names or shut up, please..."

You must have a very, very short memory.

A) The Clintons were never "cleared" on filegate. They maintained, "we don't know who hired the guy who gathered all those files," called it a bureaucratic snafu (involving law enforcement research on the lives of private citizens, who would worry about that?) -- and the press collectively shrugged its shoulders and said "Oh, nothing there." It was one of dozens of instances where the Clintons got away with clearly criminal activity by feigning incompetence, and the press allowed it, not even complaining about the string of "incompetent" behaviors.

B) Everybody who ever touched the Clinton administration had private dirt turned public on them. Bob Livingston was Speaker of the House for about a week, then had to resign because embarrassing photos of him behaving badly at Washington parties somehow got turned up. Henry Hyde faced public humiliation as a 25-years-past affair got aired publicly, simply because he was heading the House investigation into Clinton's scandals. Ken Starr and Newt Gingrich both faced the equivalent of a public spanking machine, and left long-standing public service careers with approval ratings below 30%. No fewer than SIX former sex partners of President Billy reported receiving offers of jobs, threats, or both. Do you think this happens by accident?

Clinton was a sociopath and a gangster.

Democratic Templete
1)Create Media uproar (ie Plame Affair); fill the front pages with inneuendos, OpEds, leaks, lies, screams of injustice, etc... Keep everything else off the front pages. Keep pressure up until Bush agrees on Special Prosecutor

2)Once Special Prosecutor is hired. MSM will write wonderful exposes of him. If the right prosecutor is nominated, the stroking of his ego will ensure that he, like Fitzgerald will try the case in the press, and will not close up shop until someone on high is convicted.

3)Special Prosecutor will demand that he be given
the authority to investigate any "crime" that may pop up in the investigation. This will give him the leverage to go after people who have faulty memories (perjury and obstruction).

4)Call everyone and anyone associated with DOJ and the White House. Grill everyone with hundreds of questions, and look for inconsitencies. The higher up the pay scale, the more questioning will occur. Leak to Congress any juicy tidbits of info. Harrass as often as possible until you ge the results.

5)Indict as many as possible for perjury and obstruction. Make sure to give frequesnt press conferences and wax eleoquently about Law and Order.

What they say.
I read a liberal editorialist in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette yesterday explain that Clinton's firings were taken in stride because they occurred at the BEGINNING of his term, whereas Bush's are suspicious because they occurred in the MIDDLE of his term.

No kidding. He actually wrote that, and expected us to say "Oh. That explains it, then."

Liberalism: an analysis-free zone.

Reagan had done so?
lgm wrote: "When Clinton became President, it was seen as a custom to replace all the US Attorneys. Reagan had done so."

Please post here, for all of us, indication that Reagan did, in fact, fire all the US Attorneys and replace them with his own choices.

Quite the contrary: I remember hearing that the US Attorney's office, like the Directorship of the FBI, had been off-limits by gentleman's agreement in order to maintain the appearance of objectivity, and that Clinton had demolished a long-standing tradition of the Presidency by firing the US Attorneys.

So please, set us straight and prove me wrong. I want to see the EVIDENCE.

Mister Buck writes:
"When the president fires a carefully selected group of his own U.S. attorneys in the middle of his second term for reasons that appear to be political, that's different from what Clinton (and Reagan) did"

How is it different? I realize that you're for the most part impervious to reason, and so getting you to articulate exactly what the substantive difference between the two acts is a boring exercise in futility. Let me help you:

Clinton fired all 93 USAs at the BEGINNING of his term for POLITICAL REASONS

Bush fired 8 USAs attorneys in the middle of his term after having initiated the venting process at the BEGINNING of his term (as the Rove emails reveal) perhaps—although we don’t know and should really care—for POLITICAL REASON

Difference between the two acts: Clinton fired all 93 USAs at the BEGINNING of his term exclusively for political reasons without venting any of them; Bush vented his USA’s in the beginning of his second term and fired 8 in the middle of his term.

Substantive difference: NONE

Dominici and the Patriot Act
There are two things that seem to be in play here.

1.) Dominici called and pressued an attorney about prosecuting Democratic voter fraud right before an election.

2.) The Patriot Act gave the President power to appointment attorneys without Congressional approval.

My guess is that the President is balking because of number 2. What Congress giveth they can easily take away.

I don't care whether you are conservative or liberal, what Domenici did should disturb everyone. Then to have the Bush administration fire the attorney and under the new provision of the Patriot act, appoint a political crony without Congressional approval.

Well, I can see why congress, even Republicans, would be p.o.'d.

My guess is that the Patriot provision is history.

Dogjudge
You seem ignorant of the fact that there were 2 investigations into the Whitewater real estate scandal and the Rose Law Firms involvement. Both of these investigations directly and indirectly involved Clinton and his wife. In 1993 no one in the Senate complained of this fact; niether did the NYTs and Wa Po -as a matter of fact they all defended President Clinton. There was not one peep out of anyone when the new attornies closed down the 2 grand jury investigations. This is important as many sitting Democrats were back in 1993-1996 silent to all of this.

Congress can launch all the investigations they wish into the DOJ, but they have no authority in questioning the fireing of those 8 attornies. Unless they have prima facie evidence of a crime they cannot legally soepena anyone. They goal is to do what Fitzpatrick did. Launch an open ended invesitgation (special prosecutor) in order to troll for crimes (usually perjury and obstruction brought about by harrassing defendents -a la Libby).

So, Grape Kool Aid, and Cherry Kool Aid.
All of the above notwithstanding, ye of the Democratic Grape Kool Aid drinking clan, go defend the liar Clinton's actions to Tim Russert, when you get there you can take a look at the full Navy Records he recived from the other full bore liar and fraud of fake and fraud awards and citations the real traitor to America Lt. for life John F. Kerry. IF YOU LIKE MOON BATS JOIN HE AND JANE FONDA IN D.C. TOMORROW AND THROW MUD AT AMERICAS FIGHTING MEN ONCE MORE AS YOU DID I AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS OF THE VIETNAM CONFLICT. thugs!

As or you Republican Cherry Kool Aid drinkers, this would be Atty, Gen. is the one along with Karl Rove and the Pres. himself who has used the Atty Gen.'s office and the Justice Dept. to by fraud and lies and use of a life long Mexican drug dealer convicted and sent to Federal Prision real American heros, Border Patrol Officers Ramos and Compean, and now works his evil ways to hurt America's heartland more.

One thing is clear, their is way to much Kool Aid drinking going on and way to much Republican National Committee PR GETS PUT ON THIS TOWNHALL
BLOG..........................................

dogjudge
"With the exception of Richard Nixon, no other President has used the DOJ to pursue his political adversaries!"


You ought to change your name to dogpoo, along with JF. Few administrations were more blatantly political than the Bill and Hillary show, using every dirty trick in the book and using the police power of government to destroy opponents. JF, you want one-a-week scandals, look no further than the disgusting corruption of the Clinton White House. Objective history books will show the Bush II administration as one of the cleanest in history. The best you dailykos pigs have been able to do is to convince a D.C. jury that one official didn't remember exactly how he didn't out a CIA flunky who wasn't a covert agent, therefore he must have lied. Pathetic.

Liberal Goodman
Presidents normally wait for the terms of the US Attornies to expire before replacing them. Most presidents will fire a few to put in thier own, but until Bill Clinton, no president fired the entire corps of attornies. Two of the attornies who were fired had ongoing grand jury investigations into Whitewater and the Rose Law firm. Many people think (conjecture) that Clinton fired the 93 to get to the the 2. No one seemed the complain then. But even if they did complain, there was nothing Congress could have done short of impeachment. Congress just hasn't got the authority to investigate the hring and firing of US attornies.

Congress has no jurisdiction to investigate the firings of Bush's attornies -even if he did pull them off cases involving his administration. This is a non-issue just like the Plame affair.


At this point
At this point Mr. Gallagher's argument is laughable and more than a little disingenuous.

First of all what Clinton did doesn't answer the question as to what is going on here. More to the point. If you are so current on the issue, why are you still arguing about Clinton. You should be well aware of the FACT that what Clinton did and what Bush did are NOT the same thing at all.

I agree that the President can fire these attorneys at his whim.

That doesn't mean that Congress can't investigate the matter to look into it further to see if something unusual is going on. Remember the concept of checks and balances?

If it is proven that the administration was using the Department of Justice to pursue a political agenda against the Democrats and for Republicans it should be investigated and pursued to the full extent of the law.

With the exception of Richard Nixon, no other President has used the DOJ to pursue his political adversaries!

Additionally, if it does come out that there are some problems here, Bush and his administration have some huge problems that many of you are missing. What about the prosecutions that have already happened? How are you going to feel if half of them get thrown out because there is a question of malfeasance on the part of the Department of Justice?

Bill Clinton's wife should resign !
Along with Chuck Schumer!

Great Article Mike
I have notices over the past couple of weeks the libs are definitely trying to throw as much crap at the adminstration as they can just to see what sticks. Kinda pisses you off realizing that they should be legislating and prosecuting a war instead of behaving like children.

Liberalgoodman writes:
“When Clinton became President, it was seen as a custom to replace all the US Attorneys. Reagan had done so. They have four year terms for that reason. What Clinton and Reagan did not do is replace them for political reasons in the middle of their terms.

You might not think that's a huge distinction, but others do. Pretending it doesn't exist ruins your credibility.”


You’re absolutely right, Clinton replaced all 93 USAs for political reasons at the END of his term. Maybe you and JF could explain to us why this is a substantive distinction. Moreover, as the Rove emails reveal, the White House was floating the possibility of firing all 93 USA’s at the very BEGINNING of Bush’s second term, incidentally before Gonzales became AG. I suppose you have no problem with that, right?

As for Gonzales giving misleading testimony to Congress: since it is the President’s Constitutional right to replace any or all US Attorneys for ANY reason—as Clinton so efficiently demonstrated in 1993—Gonzales had absolutely NOTHING to hide and no reason to conceal the White House’s involvement in the firings. The only explanation for Gonzales misleading Congress is that he was not adequately briefed by his Chief of Staff, who oversaw the firings. As a result, Gonzales fired his Chief of Staff. End of story.

What’s amazing about this story is that not a single Bush hater or member of the liberal press (I know, redundant) has alleged that ANY LAW had been broken. In fact, it’s almost impossible to discern what it is they’re objecting to. On the one hand, they appear indignant that the 8 US Attorneys were fired at all, which for reasons stated above, is intellectually dishonest and hypocritical. On the other hand, they feign indignation at the fact that Gonzales mislead Congress about the firing process, which as pointed out above, is non-consequential.

93>8
Everyone has said that Bush did the same thing as Clinton, now I am no mathematician, but the last time I checked 93 was greater than 8.

But in the MSM, 8 >93.

This administration is ridiculous, simply because they do not handle these situations very well. Both this and the Scooter Libby affair could have been handled very easily. The Administration could have come out with a statement explaining that nothing wrong was done in either incident and then ignore it. These situations would have blown over. But in both cases it seems that the Administration panicked and got themselves into trouble.

Digging a deeper hole
These clowns are simply digging themselves into a deeper hole as they completely destroy whatever credibility they have left.

Because the Bush regime is now SO unpopular, they are increasingly powerless to limit the ongoing PR damage of "Gonzogate" from within.

Clearly, there are now so many "leakers" in the White House who are totally fed up with Bush and his ilk that they are now simply letting the excrement hit the fan (if they aren't actively engaged in throwing it).

All of which goes to prove that, "What goes around, comes around."

Dude3344
Even if your analogy is correct (which I believe it isn't), you've given yet another non-answer...

If you want to call Democrats hypocrites for expressing outrage when thier own president did the same thing, well I guess that's your right...

But answer this question: Although a President can replace a USA for *any* reason, do you think it is OK for a president to replace USAs because he is unhappy that a USA is persuing invesitgations against poltical allies or not pursuing investigations against political foes?

That IS the question....not whether Bill Clinton fired USAs at the beginning of his term like Reagan did before him and W43 did after him.

jf
If not for political reasons, why did Clinton fire 93 attorneys?

OUTRAGE!
Bush doesn't fire someone: OUTRAGE!
Bush fires someone: OUTRAGE!
Bush fires someone but not soon enough: OUTRAGE!

Me: yawn

Dude3344
You must not have seen my last post.

Clinton didn't do the same thing as Bush.

Your analogy is incorrect...

Clinton = Reagan = W43
Clinton does equal Bush43 and Reagan in the fact that they ALL asked for the resignations of the current USAs and fired those who didn't resign at the beginning of thier term.

Only Bush43 thought of firing his own USAs midway through his term for purely political reasons (at least that's the story they are putting out now, since the poor performance story didn't stick).


Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton
Why is it every time a scandal hits this administration, conservatives will rush to say "Bill Clinton did it too!", rather than address whether the outrage is warranted?

I thought this George Bush, conservative administration was supposed to "restore dignity and honor" to the White House. Yet every scandal (which seems to be on a one a week pace) is rationalized by saying Bill Clinton somehow did the same thing. Are you guys proud to equate yourselves with the person you seem to loathe the most?

Darek
Point exactly - if that "any" reason includes political retribution, so be it - why didnt the AG/president etc. just say it - why beat around the bush and lie and now they dug a deeper hole.

And sometimes Mike Gallagher is the biggest "insert schoolyard taunt - the f word" around consantly comparing to the Clinton years.

If there is nothing wrong with...
...what the DOJ did, why did Gonzales and company feel they had to give false and misleading statements Congress when they were asked to testify?

Why has the reason for dismissing these 8 USAs changed 3 times since the question was originally asked?

Let's trot out the Scooter Libby defense again! Except this time it isn't one person's word against anothers...it's one person's word against the emails that person sent...

Only bottom feeders need apply
Unfortunately any American who is worth their political salt would be insane to run for any political office, and that is what many potential political candidates are doing.
"I don't need this crap, where myself including the family dog get a rectal exam by the media."
If there isn't a scandal one will be made-up and the poor public servant or elected politician are roasted alive and ruined.
So what do we have left? The bottom feeders, charlatans, carpetbaggers, and worthless career bureaucrats.
This country needs an political enema to flush out all the crap that has been allowed to fester at Foggy Bottom.

Subpoena Time
Now that the highly partisan Dems are issuing subpoenas for administration officials to testify, perhaps they will also issue subpoenas for Hillary Clinton and Janet Reno.

They need to testify about the 93 US Attorneys they fired, particularly the one investigating Hillary's real estate dealing during the Whitewater investigation. Was that simply political or just criminal? USAs attorneys are political appointees and can be fired "at will" by the President for any reason, or no reason.

liberalgoodman-you are an idiot!!!
President can replace them for AAAAAANNNNNNYYYYYY reason.

Not listening
You ask: "f President Clinton can fire all 93 U.S. attorneys for obvious political reasons, why can’t President Bush?”

The answer is in the media for all to see. When Clinton became President, it was seen as a custom to replace all the US Attorneys. Reagan had done so. They have four year terms for that reason. What Clinton and Reagan did not do is replace them for political reasons in the middle of their terms.

You might not think that's a huge distinction, but others do. Pretending it doesn't exist ruins your credibility.

Another part of the scandal is that Gonzalez seems to have lied under oath to the Senate.

Firing of Attorneys
Outside of Cheney and Rove, the Bush administration is gutless. What they need to do is start verbally kicking some liberal a** and bring to the public's attention what a bunch of lying hypocrites these liberal morons are. You have nothing to lose President Bush; take action and use your position to reveal what cowards and traitors these idiots are.

An Appology
I forget to credit Charles Krauthamer with the term "Bush Derangement Syndrome".

Bush Derangement Syndrome
Let's face it, this most recent activity by the left and the media are just more examples of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Anything Bush does brings out the wails, moans, exagerations, lies and hypocracy of the left.

Not only did the former presidential team fire all 93 U.S. Attorneys, they trumped up charges against the White House Travel Office to empty it out as to place their back woods cronies in good positions. Where was the press when this happened?

On the hyprocracy meter the more crickets you hear the less real the scandal is.

If you ask about what Clinton did....
If you ask a Bush hater about somhthing Clinton did, they flip out in outrage about why are you blaming Clinton for what is clearly something under Bush's control. I know. I tried it. I asked my B-H neighbor "What was your reaction wen Clinton fired of 93 attorneys? Were you outraged?" She replied, "Jesus, you really have to get over your irrational hatred of Bill Clinton! Why do you people always defend Bush's stupidities by bringing up President Clinton?" Had she presented the oriinal question to me, I would have responded that it was Clinton's right and privelege. I actually took Civics, understood its lessons ant got a passing grade when I was a kid. Libs were the ones who got it removed from our schools. Ever wonder why?

Democrats are really turning me away
I have always been a moderate conservative, voting both for moderate Democrats and Republicans. This is just another in a long line of recent years "garbage" from the Democrats. I think I have reached the point where I simply will not vote for any Democrat - period! I am fed up! And the Republicans are often not much better!
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