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Monday, February 09, 2009
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Imperfect Murder
by Mike Adams
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Author’s Note: The author wishes to thank Christine Armario. In fact, he wishes to nominate her for the Pulitzer Prize.

I hope you all had a good weekend and welcome back to our criminal law class. Please take out your notes and turn to the homicide section we were discussing last week. We will take up where we left off just after I finish today’s hypothetical case.

Imagine that an 18-year old, whom we will call Ms. Williams, walked into a Miami abortion clinic and paid $1200 for a doctor, whom we will call Renelique, to abort her 23-week old fetus. Imagine further that she was then medicated to dilate her cervix and to prepare her for the procedure.

Let us consider the possibility that Dr. Renelique didn't arrive in time to perform the abortion. Instead, Williams goes into labor and delivers a live baby girl.

Next, let us imagine that one of the clinic owners, who, of course doesn’t have a medical license, cuts the infant's umbilical cord and then places the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and throws it out. The police recover the remains in an alley after getting several anonymous tips about the incident.

The state Board of Medicine decides to hear Renelique's case to determine whether to strip him of his medical license. Meanwhile, something more serious is happening: The Florida attorney's homicide division is investigating the possibility of bringing murder charges.

According to Florida records, Dr. Renelique received his medical training in Haiti. He did his residency in New York and, according to the records of that state, has made five medical malpractice payments in the past decade.

Dr. Renelique was alleged to have given Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, before she was told to go to another clinic where the procedure would be performed the next day. When Williams arrived she was given more medication. Just before noon she began to feel ill so the clinic contacted Dr. Renelique. Hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams then went into labor and delivered the baby.

When a clinic owner named Gonzalez came in she cut the umbilical cord with scissors. She then placed the baby in a plastic bag before putting the bag in a trash can. Williams says Gonzalez even knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth and onto the cold, hard floor. Since the baby's umbilical cord was not clamped she simply bled to death.

It would be malpractice for Dr. Renelique to fail to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there at the clinic per his instructions. But, of course, in this class we are not concerned with mere malpractice. We are currently talking about homicide.

Your answers to the following questions are to be submitted to me via email by tomorrow:

1. Should prosecutors file murder charges against Gonzales? If so, what degree of murder? First? Or second?

2. Or should the state file homicide charges against Dr. Renelique? Do his actions constitute misdemeanor manslaughter? Or do they conform to a common law theory of depraved heart murder, a form of murder in the second degree.

3. How will the prosecution prove that the baby was born alive? Can the autopsy alone establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the baby’s lungs were filled with air?

4. Will the defense be allowed to argue that the child would have died anyway? What are the implications of allowing for such an argument? And, finally;

5. Aren’t you glad that this is a hypothetical, and not a real, case?

To be continued …

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Waiting for the hammer to fall
Sadly, I think that we all suspect where this is going.

Reactionary reaction
I am not in your class and do not have to be "technically" correct:
Try them both for murder (and Mom too?), find them guilty, place them in plastics bags and put them in the dumpster.

When you harden your heart...
toward the wanton destruction of human life by calling it "choice," this is where it inevitably leads.

Just my opinion, but
I would like to see first-degree murder charges brought against both the clinic owner and the doctor. But most likely we'd be lucky to see 2nd-degree charges brought. And I think it would have to be proven that the baby did take a breath before being killed.

Looks Clear Cut To Me
This looks like a clear cut case of a woman's reproductive right to choose. The woman couldn't be bothered with a pesky pregnancy, even a late term pregnancy, so she exercised her court-given rights to abort.

The abortion clinic owner was certainly within her rights to finish the abortion and pack up the baby so efficiently. If she'd "tied up all the loose ends" that abortion might have been a total bust, with a living baby laying around to complicate matters.

On another level, as a woman, the owner maintains the right to a woman's choice. By extension, all women share the same reproductive rights to abortion.

In fact, had the doctor been there, he would have been culpable for malpractice because he, being a man, doesn't have the court's protection under the law to actually finish off a baby in such a case. He might have actually had to try and preserve the life of the baby and suffered serious consequences if he had succeeded. The mother had made her reproductive choice. The baby could have endangered her health. So failing to provide an adequate abortion in this case would have really exposed the doctor to a malpractice suit.

The baby is far better off, because hey, who'd want a mom like that anyway?

All in all, this hypothetical case seems to have turned out for the best, according to all concerned. The woman got rid of a pesky pregnancy. The abortion clinic owner was only helping with this woman's choice. The doctor was safely out of reach for a malpractice suit.

This analysis isn't too far from possibility. After all, we're only talking in hypotheticals.

My opinion in this case
Prosecute Gonzales and Relenique; exonerate the mother.

Millstones and lakes?
As I recall Jesus said anyone who would harm a child would be better to tie a stone to himself and throw the stone into a lake. I pray for the changes of heart in both Renelique and Gonzalez, but I pray justice be served as well.

My wife lost a baby partway into a pregnancy less than 6 months ago. The child would have been our first. We were both crushed and still find the pain resurfacing from time to time. Knowing the reality of the loss of the life of a child neither of us could ever support a "right" to destroy an innocent child's life, at any stage of development.

As anyone who has ever studied the origins of our Constitution should understand, rights are not unfettered. We are limited in our rights to the degree that we are not permitted to violate the rights of others without repercussions. By that line of reasoning abortion is absolutely wrong and should not be legal.

Murder of an Infant
Of course the clinic personnel involved should be charged with murder by the appropriate district attorney, since it has already been established that the child was breathing before being killed. The clinic personnel should be the subject of a malpractice investigation by the state medical board and those responsible for this event should have their licenses revoked. Then the patient should sue the involved individuals, the clinic and the insurance agency behind the clinic.

Changing the subject
The left will insist that Mike's real question is should the MOTHER be charged. They cannot stand that women have never been prosecuted for having abortions, so they lie and distort.

The doctor, who was not present, cannot be charged with murder here. The people who killed the baby, killed the baby.

Since the hypothetical case, as stated, does not say why the doctor was late, it's quite possible that he isn't guilty of malpractice either.

Murder of a healthy baby
1. The prosecutors should file first degree murder charges against Gonzales.

2. The state should file homicide charges against Dr. Renelique. Both he and Gonzales are wraped and depraved.

3. The prosecution can prove the baby was born alive via autopsy and testimony.

4. Gonzales murdered a healthy infant. This madness must stop now.

5. This probably is not/not a hypothetical situation.

Easy answer
Indict for a count of open murder and let a jury decide what degree of murder it is, based on the law.

There is an old saying. Grand juries can indict a ham sandwich.

This rotten story deserves every angle legally that can be explored.

INCLUDING civil rights violations. Both of the mother, and the baby.

Murder is Murder
Sadly it is not a hypothetical. It appeared on Drudge a few days ago.

Dr. Adams
It's about time someone started posing the questions of hypocrisy and outrageous contradictions in current law, particularly in liberal bastions like CA.

The fact that someone can be charged with murder and/or sued for causing a miscarriage while a women can walk into an abortion mill and, if she's clutching $300 bucks in her mitt, can order the destruction of a third trimester child quit capable of living on its own without her, with no regard for the wishes of the man who impregnated her.

This is the sick, twisted 'logic' the liberal fascists have foisted upon the society - and it is everywhere.

Gonzales is guilty of practicing
medicine w/o a license and murdering a living human being. I say hang'em by his ... well you get the idea.

But, of course, when it comes to abortion, nothing makes sense anyway.

The real question should be concerning 'personal responsibility'. President BO, in his inaugural address spoke of taking 'personal responsibility'. Did he mean that Ms. Williams should take personal responsibility and keep her legs closed in the past? Did he mean that she should take personal responsibility and raise the product of her lust and unbridled desires? Did Gonzales demonstrate the kind of personal responsibility that Prez. BO referred to? How about the abortion doctor. Was he taking personal responsibility in being late for the appointment?

In the end of this farce, the Liberals get their wet dream with another dead baby; Gonzales gets off with nothing; the good doctor goes on to the next abortion; and Ms Williams gets to do it all over again.

In case you were wondering, the baby took on the personal responsibility that BO talked about.

Is there any difference
in this case and those involving teenage girls who have delivered babies and let them die or suddocated them? We have prosecuted and jailed several girls in this country for this.

Playing God with the lives of babies is only the first step in deciding who should live or die....

Are you liberals still excited about Nationalized health care?
What if your children do not want to be bothered with your care when you are old and helpless and the government won't pay because you smoked or ate too much of something?

Hey, it was just bio-hazard waste.
The whole controversy could have been easily avoided if only they had an industrial size waste disposal unit.

What's the big deal? The woman wanted an abortion and the fetal material was aborted. What the h@ll difference does it make at what point the bio-hazard waste ceased squirming?

Isn't that the proper attitude, libs?

As is typical
Adams doesn't provide enough information to make a reasoned judgement. This is what medical hearings (or trials) are for.

If you want to know the answer, just Google the woman who Adams so cleverly mentioned at the top of the article.

In general, it looks to me like Adams is simply trying to exploit a single and very tragic case in order to draw unwarranted generalizations regarding abortion in this country. If you like being manipulated, fine.

You conservatives always rant and rave
and get your conservative panties into a bunch when liberal teachers infuse liberal politics into their teaching agendas.

Yet, here we have a "conservative" teacher (Adams: -- not a real Barry Goldwater-style conservative -- just a moralistic, family-values type partisan Bible-thumping Jerry Falwell conservative) who is infusing rare, practically to the point of being nonexistant, abortion scenarios into his classroom.

Fine. No problem. But every time Adams hems and haws from now on... and beats his breast like a crazed ape when the liberal teachers act in a liberal fashion, then he's being a hypocrite if he can't rise above partisan politics himself.


Also... you social cons are positively obsessed with abortion stories where born-alive fetuses get tossed into the trash. These cases are as rare as winning the lottery, but you guys obviously feel a deep need to stack the deck....


Good luck with this "conservative agenda" of yours - which has been systematically reduced down to a handful of social issues. Continue down this path, and the republican and conservative parties will fall further into irrelevance.

Dr. Douglas
"Adams doesn't provide enough information to make a reasoned judgement. This is what medical hearings (or trials) are for."

Yes, we know - this is all about putting across a soothing interpretation of the event in order that the propaganda machinery can discount the stark realities, put a happy face on the event perhaps by collecting a scalp and make you and all the moral relativists feel good about the whole thing.

Afterall, this was simply a public relations problem - better it had not come to light like all the millions of other botched and otherwise carried out butcheries.

At least Dr. Mengele didn't have to deal with such inconveniences.

Barack Obama Triumphant

Obama believes when a woman contracts for a dead baby - they deserve a dead baby. This is what Barack Obama fights for and defends.

Obama opposes a bill that defines as a “person” a fully born baby who survives an abortion.

Obama votes “present” on legislation that would require doctors to give medical attention to babies who survive abortions. Obama argues that defining “…a pre-viable fetus" that survived an abortion as a "person" or "child would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute."

--------------------
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO
Associated Press Writer

"Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out."

Not Guilty
Each one should be totally exonerated.

The "mother" should be awarded at least 15 book deals and no less than 7,500 tv interveiws so she can recount her horrific tale of pregnacy. 2 or 3 movies about her life should be good, as everyone knows women getting pregnant is a NEW phenomenom.

The "nurse" should be praised for her quick thinking and heroic efforts in the face of such unthinkable difficulty. She probably deserves at least 5 book deals maybee six and a few government buildings named after her.

The "doctor" well he should IMEDIATELY be awarded a cabinet position by Obambi and be on every tv station no less than 10 hours a day extolling the virtues of deriliction of duty and disregard for oaths taken. His entire family and anyone else in Hati he knows should be granted us citizenship and then awarded 100 million dollars courtesy of the US taxpayers to make sure they can indoctrinate the rest of us.

Just remember it's all Bush's fault

////END OF LIBERAL FANTASY....

How it should be--

What's the name of that Clint Eastwood movie?

Hang E'm High!!

Michelle Hart...
Why reference Clint Eastwood? Is this your conservative fantasy?

Clint's just another Hollywood liberal when he's away from the movie set. Don't you ever watch Access Hollywood or Entertainment Tonight?

Dirty Harry actually gives to PETA, Greenpeace and the ACLU off-camera.

Dr Douglas
You know this is an actual and true case and is far from a single and/or isolated event, so don't be disingenuous. This happens many times in the death mills across the country every year. Even Pres. BHO voted as a state representative to allow babies born alive (even after surviving the gruesome events of trying to abort this innocent human) to allow the infant to starve to death.

I can't believe that even a devout lib as yourself can be that uncaring and cruel as to defend this pratice which happens all too many times. If you defend this, then you are for it and that would make you a sociopath.

At the least Gonzales is as guilty of murder just as anyone who gives birth and abandons their baby to die.

Yes, as contraceptions rule
When one Church Denomination allowed the use of contraceptions every other Denomination joined the party, shortly thereafter.

Yes, with such, America the Nation under God more and more treated and practiced procreation way below the animal kingdom, the true forerunner to cheaping human life.

Yes, it was in 1933 when that Church Denomation open the to door to contraceptions, however Roe V Wade became law in America much later.

Yes, now America is the mass grave of 50 million of unborn babies murdered in reality by
American mothers, making the mass graves of Saddam in Iraq look like peanuts as to numbers.

In essence America is presenting itself to the world as a murderous nation, right? Yes, even killing and causing thousands of innocent people to killed, as America is out there in the sand of the Arab world for the sake of oil.

Yes, even going to bed for years with Saddam for the sake of oil, right? The writer ends up his article with the words: Are you not glad that this is not a true story or something like that. Not actually true as the present America?

will
Using a 'rare' event to make a point? I'm afraid not Will - botched abortions/murders in America are daily events.

As a matter of fact, one of every 30 aborted babies is actually born alive and must be murdered by clinic staff. That adds up to more than 1.5 MILLION murders in America alone since 1972. Far from a 'rare' event.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-449598/One-baby-30- left-alive-medical-termination.html

An actual example of making generalities by using an infrequent event would be libs using abortion clinic bombings to portray the entire Christian religion.

Will
Why are you ranting at Michelle Hart for mentioning Clint Eastwood? Did she not post the perfect liberal position? Do you not state that Clint is a closet liberal? What's your problem?

You wouldn't be trying to bait her into a discussion are you? I realized that since most people are rapidly coming to the conclusion to ignore you, you must be looking for attention.

Please stay focused on the article as this isn't about what libs or conservatives teach in their classes. Let me clue you... this is about killing babies born alive and what the consequences for such should be.

Will
Yes, cases like this are rare (we hope), but not nonexistent. This case HAPPENED. You completely evaded the issue, so I will ask some relevant questions. Should Dr. Renelique lose his medical license? Should he be prosecuted for malpractice? For murder? For involuntary manslaughter? What should happen to Gonzales? These are not hypothetical, or nonexistent problems. These are real questions about a real occurence that can't just be swept under the rug.

Icedog
Good post.

Icedog's score = 1
Will's score = 0

WHAT??
There's a medical school in Haiti?

Interesting points
Birdman II: "Gonzales is guilty of practicing
medicine w/o a license and murdering a living human being."

Unfortunately, murder was the -- uh -- medical care in this case, and a licensed physician might well have been exonerated for the same act.

Frederick: "Since the hypothetical case, as stated, does not say why the doctor was late, it's quite possible that he isn't guilty of malpractice either."

One might reasonably think that killing a baby with a chance at viability would constitute malpractice. But here it would involve _not_ doing so.

Christine Armario: "Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out."

Her pronoun reference is vague. But it seems that after conceding the birth of "a live baby girl" in the preceding paragraph, the reporter purposely demoted her to the status of "it" lest any feminist complain.

Small points of usage? Perhaps, but nonetheless revealing.


Doug
Don't make fun of Haitian med school. It's a very intense week. ....and $99 is nothing to sneeze at!

...it does make you wonder just how many of these "doctors" are running around the US.

For those of you looking for the news..
Drudge is a good source for breaking news. The URL is http://www.drudgereport.com

BIPA and Obama
I currently, and forever henceforth, have a bumper sticker on my car that states "OBAMA LIED BABIES DIED".

The woman, and apparently all others in this story, seem to have the same view of abortion as our Commander in Chief. That is, when a woman goes in for an abortion, no matter what happens, she's entitled to a dead fetus. There's no other way to view their actions.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

20Yrs - 994 SAVED!!!!!
Care Net started here in St. Lucie county 20 yrs ago, and those who gave of their time , money, lives have helped save 994 babies from the type of horror that the words of this "hypotheticial" article speak of. Two truths here; one, babies are murdered every day in this nation, mostly out of self love or a sense of irresponsibility. Two, babies are saved everyday in this nation by those who show Love and compassion to those who have made a irresponsible choice, but still value human life, and find that murder is one death that leads to the second death awating those who chose to murder in the first place. Once you understand that a second death awaits, and that you face it, life takes on greater meaning and becoming responsible for ones own choices becomes paramount; not therefore listening to those who use your choices for their own gain and glory and ultimatley the control of all.

Jack
Are you just stating Dr Doug is a homo (which would be kinda mean) or do you know?

I mean if he is gay and he is also a psychologist then that creates a whole new set of conflicting interests. Can you see him ever counselling someone to go in the right or natural direction. I mean talk about the conflicted leading the conflicted.

Lacie Pattrson case;
When murdered by the husband in this case, he was charged with double murder.

The court decided that the unborn child had human life statis.

The same rule can apply here. Do we know if the mother signed a wavier in the event she died on the table.

The entire group should be held accountable. Is it not what the current politicals in charge want, more accountability??


I wonder
Has she ever heard the Nickelback song "Throw Yourself Away"? That song talks exactly what you mentioned in this article if she had let her baby get born and have it born on a bathroom floor just like Winston Churchill did.

I have Researched This Issue over a year

When a baby is born alive and separated from its mother and living on its own - the baby is a US Citizen and should be granted ALL of the rights and protections that any citizen has.

It is very difficult to amass data on babies who are killed and left alone to die, but estimates are there is hundreds every year in America.

These babies are treated as medical waste, as if they are tumors, thus NO death certificate or birth certificate is issued, which would trigger data.

The BAIPA was unanimously passed by such Liberals as boxer, Feinstein and Kennedy.

If this is NOT happening why would they pass the BAIPA legislation?

Barack Obama has done everything humanly possible to ensure that these babies receive any aid or comfort, not even pain medication.

Most of these babies are left without water or food, so they die in excruciating pain crying in terror with every breath for help but - NO ONE CARES.

My research shows the majority of these babies are black.

Dr Douglas has a 'Man Crush'?

He certainly is obsessed with Mike Adams.

More Info?
Please Dr. Doug, feel free to provide any additional information that might help argue your side of this story.

What you fail to understand is that many informed TH readers have also made the effort to find additional information on this story.

Maybe you should give it a try...


Society
What can become of a society that willingly stands by and allows an infant to die because it is a woman's "Choice"?

Just suppose

That Dr. Renelique had been kidnapped by pro-life activists, thus making his appearance and performance impossible and thereby causing the whole scenario.

Had he been allowed to perform his function, there would be no story.

Therefore, the pro-lifers could be charged not only with kidnapping, but also a murder which they were trying to prevent.

Rod Serling


1st degree murder
They should all be charged with pre-meditated murder. If the nonexistent "right" to an abortion is based on the existing right to privacy, that baby left the womb and subsequently is entitled to EVERY right of EVERY other US citizen. Once that baby left the womb it is no longer moms right to privacy to do with her body as she pleases and that baby is then eligible for equal protection underthe law. They ALL failed to help that defeneseless citizen.

Will Derryberry
Seriously, everyone, are Will and Derryberry the same person?

I'm not kidding.

doc? doug
What kind of doctor is he exactly? Hey Dougie are you one of those people that got a PhD (Poor Hopeless Dope)and walks around demanding people call you "doctor" so you can pretend your are a REAL doctor? You cling to your peer reviewed journals as if they were the last word on everything. You discount common sense for psychobabble mumbo-jumbo

America is given another chance
to have a hard look at what abortion really is.

Will we harden our hearts further and become like this abortion clinic owner that threw the baby on the floor, bled the life out of the child and tossed her into the garbage. What about the wretched girl that watched her own child thrown away? What will become of her soul and mind?

Will the United States of America become a culture of death? Will government teachers soon be promoting abortion in the classroom to our children? Have we become our own enemies?

Dr. Douglas and Will
Both of you seem to have some sort of problem with Dr. Adams commenting on this case because "it's a rare example". The point you knuckleheads don't seem to be able to get into your thick skulls is that the rarity of the event is not the key issue here.

What matters is that a child was born alive and then stuffed into a plastic bag and allowed to suffocate. This is premeditated murder. the clinic owner must have known that her actions would lead to the death of the child, yet she did it anyway. Classic definition of murder with intent.

Let's apply your logic to some other scenarios. When Rodney King was beaten by police, it was only one traffic stop in many thousands that resulted in a beating. One might say this is a "rare" case. Does that make it any less wrong?

When OJ Simpson murdered Nicole and Ron, they were only two of the many hundreds or thousands of people he had encountered that week. He only murdered two of those hundreds...which makes it "rare". Was it less murder or less noteworthy because of the percentage of people he'd met that he killed?

The point is, it doesn't matter that the occurrence was rare, but that it happened at all. If the allegations are true in this case, then it is most definitely murder. The semantics of whether or not abortion is murder don;t apply in this case...the child was born alive and then that life was snuffed out.

The mother, who wanted a murder, got one
The 'doctor' who was not where he should have been - provided no substitute or replacement.

The 'clinic' KNEW the 'doctor' was NOT IN and allowed the patient to be there (not sent elsewhere.) The 'clinic owner' took it upon herself to perform the functions of the 'doctor' in this case and finished the 'delivery of the infant' in a cruel and inhuman manner (letting the baby fall onto the floor and suffer harm.) Then, callously, tossed it aside like garbage.

BUT FOR the actions of the 'clinic owner' this would be a "non-story" of 'just another abortion.'

((IF the 'clinic owner' had done what a 'good doctor' may have done under the circumstances and SAVED THE LIFE OF THE BABY - would we be talking about bringing charges against her ANYWAY for 'disregarding the wishes of the mother - who wanted an abortion?'))

Murder
Period. We all know by now that this is a real case. That abortion can even be considered at 23 weeks is an abomination in our legal system. Once the baby was free of her mother's body and took a breath, this was a separate American life. The doctor should be charged with whatever murder charge includes depraved indifference and Gonzalez should be charged with 2nd degree murder at minimum. I would also charge the mother with depraved indifference but I suppose the abortion statute regrettably lets her off the hook. This case really makes me sick.

Murder
As far as I'm concerned the "mother" is as guilty as the butcher shop owner and that "physician".

The Imperfect Murder
Of course we should also bear in mind that none of the participants would even be in this country if it were not for our insane immigration system. Who in his/her right mind wiould ever go to a Haitian MD?

Prediction:
A prosecutor will indict Ms. Gonzalez (at the least) for murder. The Obama Justice Department will then come to her defense, and the media will pile onto Forida for allowing "intrusive religious zealotry" to drive policy as in the Terri Schavio case.


The left and rationalizing
We should all keep this story in mind when we think we have reached the limits of left wing rationalizing.

When we think that a 3 trillion dollars will be their limit to how much they ask from the American people to stimulate the economy. Understand that they haven't even gotten to universal health care and global warming yet, when it comes to spending.

These are the same people that will not admit the sun's variations in heat output has hardly any effect on climate, but we do.

They will not accept ANY blame for the condition of the inner cities, despite being in COMPLETE control of them for 40 years.

Their hatred for the rich has blinded them so badly, that they believe when a rich person wants to keep half of his income, this is called greedy. But the recipient of their money, via government transfer of wealth, is not greedy.

There is no limit to their rationalizing.







Imagine
Isnt that the name of a song by liberal lennon? Well we need to add a verse "Imagine dumping a human being into a bio hazard bag and dumping it in an alley it isnt hard if you try"

Defense against terrorism
This is the perfect defense against terrorism. The United States is our "body" and terrorsits are "unviable tissue masses" that have invaded the privacy of our bodies. We send the terrorists to the abortion clinic where our "choice" can be exercised and we can put them in trash bags and put them out with the garbage.

True story
In case it hasn't been mentioned, this IS a true story and yes Virginia, there is a perfect, fiery hell awaiting us in Americas' future.


http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/shocking-new-detail s-emerge-at-renelique%E2%80%99s-revocation-hearing/

The height of decadance ....
1. Should prosecutors file murder charges against Gonzales? If so, what degree of murder? First? Or second? YES, SECOND DEGREE MURDER

2. Or should the state file homicide charges against Dr. Renelique? Do his actions constitute misdemeanor manslaughter? Or do they conform to a common law theory of depraved heart murder, a form of murder in the second degree. YES, DEPRAVED HEART MURDER

3. How will the prosecution prove that the baby was born alive? Can the autopsy alone establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the baby’s lungs were filled with air? NOT SURE, BUT I'LL BET IF THEY NEED TO THEY CAN - AND STATEMENTS FROM EACH PRESENT SHOULD BE PRODUCTIVE

4. Will the defense be allowed to argue that the child would have died anyway? What are the implications of allowing for such an argument? And, finally; NO, SUCH A DEFENSE IS PURELY SPECULATIVE - WE WILL ALL DIE ANYWAY, SOME DAY!

5. Aren’t you glad that this is a hypothetical, and not a real, case? I'LL BET THAT THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED AND IT WAS NOT AN ABORTION IT IS INFANTICIDE - LET'S CALL IT WHAT IT IS!

Just the facts
Life begins at conception

ergo

abortion is murder, because it is "terminating" a HUMAN life. It makes no difference how young the person being "terminated" (killed) is.

question
If the child bled to death wouldn't that mean that she was alive before she bled to death?

Dr. Douglas & typicality
Some of you may not know that Dr. Douglas once posted that his university, Oregon State, was too poor to hire teaching assistants.

Five minutes on OSU's web site shows that not only do they hire them, the TAs have their own bargaining unit, and OSU has a special award for the best TA.

In other words, this is the typical leftist response from a typical leftist.

will's scenario
So will has a problem with "rare, practically to the point of being nonexistant, scenarios?" Coming from TH's foremost "gay" spokesperson, that's rich. Or have your forgotten Matthew Shepard already?

Murderer
She is a murderer. Cold blooded with malice afore thought. She should be charged with 1st degree murder.

Abortion is a choice
I continue to think that the use of abortion as a means of birth control is outrageous. I, also, find that the woman who just had eight children at one time to add to her other six to unconscionable.

I wonder how many "botched abortions"
were there when abortions used to be illegal?

More than today I'd bet. Whether legal or illegal, there will always be a market for abortions. Best to keep it safe(r).

Gee, all you so-called "pro-life" people were curiously quiet when thousands of americans died in Iraq in vain. -- So, if another 747 is hijacked tomorrow and drives itself into yet another NYC landmark -- what do we do again? What's the "solution"? Send more troops to Iraq? What an irrational response from a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. You so-called pro-life people just pick & choose which lives you want to help save.

For all of you people who've made "botched abortions" your number one issue, you'd better support contraception programs. If you support "abstinence only" exclusively, then you are part of the problem of these "botched abortions". Not part of the solution.

Iraq?
what exactly does the Iraq war have to do with throwing away a baby??

I know this is a tough one to defend by try to stay with it...

Can't wait, Gonzalez
I can't wait until this human scum, Gonzalez, is sitting in a retirement home on a chair in about 15 years. I can't wait until he goes sprawling on the floor -- bootprint on his back -- and bleeds out from his kidney shunt.

How in the world do people get this degraded? It sickens me. Where are all these emotional liberals recounting the slave mistreatment stories? Doesn't this compare? I'll bet this story is multiplied by the thousands every year. How else can you explain how heartless he was...as if he'd done this before.

Abortions are better legal & safe
(or safer at least) -- than illegal and truly botched.

Will
My recommendation for the next 747 being flown into a building would be to cut off your scholarship to the teach-nothing school you're attending. You're doing a great job imitating a complete imbecile, by the way.

Will
Forget botched illegal abortions, how many botched legal abortions are there? Dozens, if not hundreds, die or have life-long consequences for poorly done abortions. But I guess those stats don't matter...as long as they're legal, right? Because legal = safe in your intro to reasoning class.

Botched or not
This issue has nothing to do with whether or not this was a legal/illegal botched abortion.

Regardless of anyone position on abortion, we should all be able to agree that in a situation like this where the baby is born alive, that infant deserves to be treated humanely.

Our society has reached an amazing point when there are actually people willing to defend someone stuffing a baby into a plastic bag and throwing it in the trash because it wasn't wanted...

Will
Maybe Will needs to reel in that red herring he just tossed out there.

I'm not sure that defending a nation really falls into the same category as killing a baby in the womb, but those that defend the indefensible will do what they want.

Maybe you can explain the platform that supports killing babies in the womb but vehemently oppose the killing of a murderer or rapist. Perhaps if we called capital punishment an "extremely late term abortion" liberals would vote for it.

After all, Obama's platform is socialism, rebranded as "hope and change" and liberals went for it.

Will
" wonder how many "botched abortions"
were there when abortions used to be illegal?

Yes the old "botched abortion line"
2nd only to the use of "homophobe" to quiet anyone that doesnt tow the gay line. Throw racist in there too for those that dont agree w Obama.

Were there botched abortions, i'm sure there were,
What the F does that have to do with killing a live baby.

will
Just thank God your mother was pro-life and not a lesbian incapable of reproducing.

Liberal deflection
Iraq has nothing to do with this murder case in Florida. Nice try - when the liberals can't defend their position, they try to deflect. A voluntary military going to defend your right to spew your illogical doctrine is a bit different than a helpless child that is not given even a chance to live and ever make any choices for herself. This was murder of a defenseless child, that felt pain, that suffered, that came into the world to suffer and be denied God's greatest gift by the worst that humanity has to offer. Who knows what this life may have offered the world because the potential was snuffed out before she was even given a chance. When you compare the heroic sacrifice made by our military men and women in defense of liberty to the pre-meditated murder of an infant, you really do sound like a complete mindless idiot.

Will
Maybe its too early in the morining for you there in CA but you need to move away from the argument that abortion is ANYTHING like war. Besides being "pro-life" can't STOP any killing of any kind. People die it happens. At least in a war you can make an argument you are defending yourself. How does a person make the defense argument against a baby?

n
Dont bother , Will cant hear you. His head is too far up his butt.

A horrible story
Will and Mr. Doug are just preemptively defending their sacred cow, Roe v Wade.

Bush's war: Every innocent life is worth something (politically that is). Don't let the "moral" opportunity pass.

Botched abortions: It takes a few broken eggs to make an omelet, eh? Nothing to see here, move along. What morals?

Shorter Will and Mr Doug: What's a few more dead brown babies?

More reasonable people look this situation and are appalled at the treatment of the premature infant.

This clinic needs to be shut down. These people are monsters at worst and incompetent at best.

First degree for Gonzales and second for the doctor. He loses his license at a minimum.

/spit

Will
I volunteered to serve and go to war. It was my choice to do so. I'm an adult and can think and care for myself. To compare that to aborting an unborn or killing a live baby is ridiculous even for you.

To continue to argue against your intellectual superiors here only proves that you are depriving a village soemwhere of an idiot.

The Imperfect murder?
Mike, is not surprising what is going one in our country, where every day thousands of babies are been killed by the greedy butchers! Already a whole generation, who were the ones to paid their social security had been killed without no mercy. We are in a generation that life means nothing, our now president, as senator in Chicago, voted against what had happened here in Florida. It will not surprise me, if this man doesn't have a REAL Dr. license, It has happened before. Even though he had being in troubles before keeps practicing his horrible evil procedure. Our society had made the mighty dollar their god. It's sad that the minority is ruling our country's moral duties to stop this Horrific Procedure. When is this going to be STOPPED and understand this is pre-meditated murder for the irresponsible lust benefit? God have mercy, open people's
eyes and ears, so they can understand the meaning about this killings.
Americans need to wake up and see the danger in front of their own eyes. This is a curse because disobedience and lust in our society.
Anyone doing this horrific procedure should face the weight of the law for murdering these innocent babies.

Will
I'm pro-life and I oppose the Iraq war as well as every war the government has sent young men to die in since Korea. WWII was tha last war our government had any business declaring.

BTW, you still haven't answered my non-hypothetical questions: Should Dr. Renelique lose his medical license? Should he be prosecuted for malpractice? For murder? For involuntary manslaughter? What should happen to Gonzales?

What does breath have to do with life?

3. How will the prosecution prove that the baby was born alive? Can the autopsy alone establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the baby’s lungs were filled with air?

======
Oh my, 'ol man Adams is going to be thrown out of the anti-desperate female society.

He just committed the prime error of associating breath with life.




Slippery Slope
Worse is yet to come from the culture of death which has been energized as a result of the election. This horrid case is just the beginning, folks. That libs can brush this off by comparing it to Iraq just shows the depravity to which they have fallen and to which we all will be subjected. God save us.

Life
Whether the baby is dead or alive when it leaves the womb is irrelevant. Abortion is based on the right to Privacy. ie: a womens claim its her body and she can do with it as she pleases. Once the baby is out of the womb it is no longer her property it is now a citizen who has every right that mother and everyone else in that room has.

Murder of Inoccent babies!
To all of those that still are fighting "choice"
for killing these innocent human beign, I want to tell you that you don't know what you are asking for. Today is the abortion, next will be anyone with defects, next the old generation, next those sick, next those on welfare living off taxpayers and next those that disagree with them!!! You think it will not happened? Beware and think twice, it did happened years ago! People used to look the other way and did nothing, until the worst happened, millions Jews were murdered without compassion. Men without the fear of God don't
care and will not stopped to imposed their political agenda in order to accomplished it.
May God's love keep his children safe from evil doers in our country and abroad! He is the only one with the solutions to our crisis and our problems. No man can do it!

Thank you
I want to thank all the lib trolls on this thread for demonstrating that when it comes to what Ann Coulter calls the "liberal sacrament of abortion" the left will even defend the premeditated murder of a baby. The left's defense of this indefensible act is just more proof that the left has no morality.

The left's total absence of morality is exemplified by jim from CA. He wants to know how the prosecution is going to "prove" the baby was born alive.

A question for jim. What is the "compassionate" thing to do? Is it "compassionate to check the baby's status at birth and make every effort to keep it alive (if it's alive) or resusitate it (if it's not alive)? Or is it compassionate to cut the cord and knock it on the floor to make sure it doesn't survive regardless of its status.

What is the compassionate thing for TH posters to do? Should we abhor this kind of 'medical' treatment and condemn it in the hope it never happens again? Or should we presume to play jailhouse lawyer in an effort to allow this kind of behavior because our objective is to make sure every unwanted baby dies in the name of the liberal sacrament of abortion?

You make me sick to my stomach. You are despicable.

jim
"He just committed the prime error of associating breath with life."

You have done the same thing on many an abortion argument. YOU are the one who has said over and over that it isn't an infant until it has taken a breath. You even asserted the Bible backs up your view.

Well the autopsy has already shown that the baby girl's lungs filled with air.

While I sympathesize
with the woman this happened to and her lawsuit, let us not forget that she sought an abortion and she was over 20 weeks pregnant.

This right here is where abortion has run amuck in a nation of extremes. As with everything in American life it just goes too far.

We are seeing an increase in botched abortions, to the point where we are now having to debate legislation in that regards, because abortion boundaries are forever being broadened.

If we are to have less of this kind of thing happening at least we as a nation should reinstate some boundaries on abortion.

n
There is no such thing as the right to privacy. It is as much a work of fiction as the "separation of church and state"; neither principle is found in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights. Both have been "discovered" by liberal jurists in the last 40-50 years. We can also discuss the fact that a baby has a completely different set of DNA from the woman, so, while it exists inside of her body, it is not a part of her body. Abortion kills babies.

Will does not have his head up his ...
I think that comment about Will having his head up his rectum was entirely inappropriate. Were he to put his head up there he might endanger an innocent gerbil.

Serious hypocrisy involved
with abortion as well. A woman can abort a baby at any time and anywhere, but if someone were to murder her while she is pregnant, then it is considered a double homicide. See Scott Peterson.

Seems the real threshold for abortion, and or life, changes based upon whether someone actually wants the baby.

CVN65
You and I are in total agreement. You are right but generally speaking freedom from illegal search and seizure is considered "privacy". Its the basis for abortion in that a woman's body should be free of illegal serch and seizure (privacy). I didnt say I agreed with it I am just relating how the argument FOR abortion was made. I would also argue since sperm is introduced from another person then the firtilized egg is no longer just the woman's property.

As to seperation of church and state unfortunately people have successfully argued putting a creche up in city hall is akiin to establishing a religion. Like it or not its how the liberals roll.

Lolo1
We had a circuit-riding abortionist who finally was chased out of town when the ER docs got sick of constantly having to do emergency repairs on the patients for whom 'safe' abortions turned out to be 'not so safe'. They simply went after his medical license. The 'clinic' was closed and the quack hasn't been seen since. This is one town that must on legal grounds 'tolerate' some of its OB-GYNs doing abortions but at least we won't put up with shoddy quacks. Not great, nor what we'd prefer, but it is what it is. :P


Will (Josh)
A simple question:

Do you believe the doctor and/or the nurse should be charged with any crime in this case?

Interesting
Most of you do not hold Ms. Williams, the woman who wanted the abortion, responsible. She was the one who paid for the procedure, sought the procedure. . .might be a bit dicey putting all those women in prison for getting a doctor to give them a safe abortion?!

Women are NOT a community resource to be used by the community, then discarded as history has shown all to often. The sex trade often discards women quite regularly and often after these women have given up getting anything better in or out of life. Women demand the same rights as men; to make decisions regarding their health, well-being, life's direction - every step of the way and under all circumstances. Women are individuals with rights to make their own decisions, whether any of you like the decisions of not.

Face it; you don't want to pay for another person's choices prior to, during or after the pregnancy has ended. You don't want to pay taxes to properly education or provide healthcare for children. You don't want to pay taxes for sheltering these children. AND, if they aren't PERFECT, you don't even want to adopt them! All you really want to do is look down your nose at another person and MAKE them do your bidding. Sounds like servitude or slavery to me. I thought that was ended over a 150 years ago? Oh, I forgot, that only applied to black men. . .women are another issue all together. Hypocrites.

Unfortunately, this is
a real case. I hope the Florida D.A. shuts down the abortion mill and arrests everybody involved. I am sure that Pres. Zero loves the actions of the abortionists since he would not want his daughters "punished with a baby".

n, you are wrong
Roe v Wade does NOT rely on the Fourth Amendment law concerning search and seizure. It rests on the 14th Amendment due process clause. Please read the decision before attempting to argue your erroneous point. Knowledge is power. As for the "fetus", Roe v Wade ruled that the "fetus" is NOT a person otherwise the baby would be entitled to due process protection as well under the 14th Amend. The abortion lobby repeats this nonsense about how the fetus is not a baby. It's not true, but as Goebbels said, repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it.

Alive In Him
Well at least you guys made some progress.

There is a greater issue here that people are over looking. The woman who was receiving the abortion was sold a false bill of goods about abortion and is now scarred for life and has filed a huge civil suit. I am willing to bet also that they just created a new pro-life advocate with virulent views.

Bet we don't see her on any talk shows.

I believe that the license
is being taken away from the abortionists. We have to wait and see what the Florida D.A. does to Gonzalez, a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Alice
Is it too late to abort Gonzales?

For AnnRandlives and n
Justice Blackmun, in the majority opinion on Roe vs. Wade, wrote that "the state has no interest" in whether a fetus is a human being or at what point a gestating fetus becomes a human.

He based his vote (and opinion) on the confidential nature of the relationship between the mother and her doctor. He essentially declared a pregnancy to be legally the same as any other medical condition, which was an avoidance of the question of whether a fetus was a human being.

Husker2
I've asked Will the same question--twice. He isn't answering.

Calling dr HATE...

A day in the life of dr hate...


Wake up at O'Dark O'clock, pour shot of breakfast, drink same.

Memo to self, order more Scotch.

Logon to ConSite.

Find person to hate.

Oh-di-do, Oh-di-do, Oh-di-do...

Let's see, Adams?, Prelutsky?, Malkin?, Coulter?, Shapiro? McCullough? YES!.

Hard choice, I hate all uv-em. I hit sevrum uv dem.

Drink another shot of breakfast.

Read article, misquote it, call it stupid, call them haters, promote marxism, call them liars, send them personal HATE email,

( when I get a response from them, I'll call WebSiteMaster, and demand they be fired for hate mail.

Any poster that calls me on this! I have them banned too. My right to hate is more improtant! )

Drink another shot of breakfast, while waiting for those stupid moron poster cons to try to refute my brylliante comments.

After all, I has a degree as a Perfesser Emirate of Psycho, in the Psycho Dept.
uv my Universe in some god forsaken place.

Oho, a response. Call them stupid moron poster cons for even trying to refute my brylliante communts.

'nother shot of breakfast. (How can hul LMAO? I just HATE!)

Call next poster a stupid Nazi. Heh-heh.

Call next poster moron for daring to disagree.


'nother shot of breakfast.

How styupid these cretins? islam is peece. gays dont git sick. cristens r haters. HIC. wars wil end if we disarm. HIC. guns kil peeple.

WOW, time for lunch !


Eat chocolate drops I found behind the counter where that rat was gnawing.


Pour double shot of lunch.

Memo to self. Order more Kaopectate flavored "Dark Eyes".


Time to dress. Go to closet. Pull out Liesure suit.




WOW, a double handful of chocolate drops. Yummy.

OH, Dang, that rat has been gnawing in here too!


Ohh. Tired. Gonna be long nite. Take two 'Black-Beauties'.

Pour more lunch...

Mother Natures Course Correction
This case shows the ignorance of an 18 year old being “unaware” of what a late term abortions are all about. Had the doctor made it in time, he would have bashed in the baby’s skull and suck the brain matter out. All in front of it’s “mother”. Would she have been traumatized by watching that? I wonder if she’ll get a refund of her $1,200? They did actually what she paid them to do and is crying foul? Exactly what DID she think about how they would remove the fetus? She wanted an abortion was concerned and horrified at the method they used to remove it.

Since Ms Williams is black, they’ll be some who will charge racism. There is a reason so many hate the late term abortion for these reasons. Ms Williams is using her new found fame to promote awareness of the guilt and struggle of having an abortion, she is no longer pro-choice. The question then reverts back to will she now become a responsible adult at 20 yrs old and not engage in unprotected sex partners or become celibate.

There’s a cosmic course correction that Mother Nature hasn’t learn to adapt quickly to the liberal moral and values (yes I know it’s an oxymoron). The liberal philosophy of free sex/love from the 1960’s and because of that loving feeling, new diseases have crop up to the surface, unwanted babies were created and for the selfishness of the creating parties, they just had to advance the abortion concept. Then, their own procrastination and superfluous lack of quick action, they needed to advance the abortion issue further than before and those pioneering doctor’s devised new methods to eliminate the unwanted matter that was planted in their uterus.

Planned Parenthood clearly doesn’t want to educate these sexually active morons, it would cut back on the financial windfall of the over sex, ignorant, uneducated young adults.

Lolo1
You make a very good point regarding the hypocrisy of legal abortion but double homicide. Seems to me that because the legality of a situation is often decided by prior instances that one of these two laws MUST be thrown out. Lets hope that the Justices pull their heads out of their rears and apply a little common sense.

Genesis 1 and 2

Lolo1 Location: CA
Reply # 18
Date: Feb 9, 2009 - 12:46 PM EST
jim
"He just committed the prime error of associating breath with life."

You have done the same thing on many an abortion argument. …… You even asserted the Bible backs up your view.

===

I did not assert, I proved. If you believe that the breath of life for Adam was a one time deal, what about all the other things that happened within those same seven days.

Were they one time deals, or is there still light and dark, land and water, all those animals, and on and on. Just read it again.

==========

Genesis 1 and 2

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; .
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters

I am sure that you believe all of the above, and I bet that whatever you read later in the Bible does not make you come back to Genesis and say, “That’s not the way it is done these days.”

Well read Chapter 2

7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If God says that man became a living soul only after he breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, why do you continue to insist that God was only kidding, and it does not really take the breath of life to become a living soul.

absolutely pathetic
There are few publishable word I can type regarding people who would defend this slaughter of innocents.

As the father of 3 daughters( youngest one is 18 days old ), I truly hope there is special suffering for the three involved in this murder.

4 Will the clueless
Hey Will do you want to compare ovaries sometime?

Mine are for giving life, what are your's for??

Sorry, I forgot that only liberals are allowed to make value judgements on conservitive sites.

Or is it just that time of the month for you?


What did she expect?
Seems almost Biblical in irony. A young lady goes to express her rights to end life but instead of a sterile "out of sight out of mind" experience she is faced with the reality of killing a child. I hope she now has a change of heart

Ayn
A baby OUTSIDE the womb is NOT a fetus is it?

why dont you tell us in one sentence how due process allows a woman to have an abortion.

Alice from GA
You seemed to believe that the readers here don't care about women or children.

My congregation sponsors a crisis pregnancy organization. Any woman, no matter who and no matter the circumstances, can come and receive help. That help includes free medical care, free room and board if needed, and free counseling.

Once the baby is born, the group will help mom and child. If adoption is preferred, the woman is helped along the way.

No accusations, no looking down the noses, no pointing fingers.

I think you may find that many cities and towns have such groups, sponsored by Christian churches.

We ask no government help, we ask no thanks, we ask only to serve women to give them an alternative to abortion.

Abortionists make money
I have this argument with my husband all the time: I put MOST of the blame on the (so-called) physicians as they have knowledge of the (undisputed) fact that life begins at conception; they are charging big fees for the procedure; and they are neither in a state of crisis/dilemma, nor do they suffer the lifelong consequences of ending the life of their own flesh and blood. Women need to realize that abortion is a form of abuse to them; and a definite and purposeful choice to murder the unborn baby. It never changes what WAS, only takes it out of sight, but never out of mind.

Adoption is a choice everyone can live with.

Ayn
what does Due Process allow or prohibit?

Abortionists
I pasted this article on several of these threads last week.

Liberals and pro-choicers will make excuses for this kind of abuse,but it will not make it anything less than murder. Pure unadulterated murder. In the first degree.

Blackmun
Blackmun noted that “the Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy,” but he also wrote that since at least 1891 the Supreme Court had “recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution.” He then mentioned many cases in which the Court had upheld the right of personal privacy in marriage, family relationships, contraception, childbirth, child rearing, and education. He also noted the constitutional protections guaranteeing that the government not intrude into the privacy of the home without a legal cause and a warrant.

this is a summary statement of blackmuns majorit yopinion. I misspoke about illegal search and seizure but pro-abortion folks believe a womans rights trump life.


Liberals
It is quite disturbing that in a case (like this) where clearly wrong was done, it seems like no one on the left can see it or will just excuse it. Unbelievable.

bostguy112
You are exactly correct!

Many no longer have a problem with killing the baby even if it was born alive.

As with Obama's Illinois law, the mother's intent overrides the baby's rights.

If the mother intended to have an abortion, and the baby was accidentally born alive, the clinic could still kill the baby.

My question is, "Do we have a time limit"?

What about the stressed-out mother with the two-month-old baby that won't quit crying?

I, like you, am absolutely amazed that liberals can defend this.

all
prosecute everyone involved in any murder, oops, i mean any "choice" to abort an unborn person, with 1st degree homicide.

Another thing, bostguy112
It has been stated several times already, but if you look at the liberal responses above, the intent is to move the conversation in a different direction.

Dr Douglas wants Dr. Adams to ignore this case because it is rare.

Will wants to talk about Iraq. (At least he didn't discuss anything about the murdered baby being born gay.)

Others talk about downtrodden women.

Unbelievable.

Tom from GA, 9:23 a.m.
Great post!

If the rest of you haven't yet, please read Tom's post from 9:23 a.m.

Lolo1
I forgot to mention that our local pregnancy help center now has two locations. That is progress we can all rejoice over, as the pro-life message now has an even better chance of succeeding! :)

Husker2
Oh yes, I do believe so many of you look down on people who are not like yourselves or even believe the same as you do. I READ THIS BELIEF EVERYDAY IN MOST OF THE COLUMNS AND RESPONSES ON THIS WEBSITE.

The current outrage is with the woman who now has 14 kids. While I think that is an outrage given the circumstance, I would think that is an outrage in any circumstance, given the world we live in and the limited resources [given a world population of 8 billion +] and so many people dying of preventable diseases and starvation. Not to mention the increasing rate of poverty in this country, due to the incredibly bad behavior of the finance industry executives. But, I have refrained from the hysteria about her possibly being on welfare, medicaide, whose the father and the like. All I here is OMG, who's going to pay for these kids? She exercised her choice to have these kids, well you got what you wanted. A woman who is willing to be a full-time mother by her own choice. Please leave the rest of us alone with our choices and responsibilities - which I might ad, are none of your business.

Alice
Once again, you try to deflect the argument onto a whole different topic - the woman with 14 kids.

Straight out: What, if anything, should be done with the doctor, the nurse, or the mother in this case?

Please don't bring up how hateful we are, how stupid we are, or how angry you are.

dr hate, dr hate, dr hate


Gee, dr hate. you call every columnist on this site a foul name, but cannot abide anyone returning the compliment?

Thin skinned are we?

When the columnist replies, vis a vis email which you originated, you try to get them fired.

We know you could not be fired even if you murdered a grad student in full view of your class of three.

Well! They just did not see the lesson.




Please call your favorite grad student and have him pack something for you.

You will be relieved and so will your grad student.

I am curious although, only mildly, how did you ever become so hateful?



Did your mommy's various and sundry boyfriends spank you repeatedly?

Did your friendly grad students promise they would not do that thing in your mouth, and lie about it?


Please feel free to spread the truth instead of your VERY ignorant lies.

It is obvious to all that you are insane...

And to add insult to injuy, your IQ is comparable to a ten year old.

I could send you a list of comic books that would help you, but you have resisted every effort of others for you to improve.

Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate, Hate,

Yup I is dr hate.

~~~

Enough for now, but I shall return.

You are a vile fithy thing, that cats would cover up.

I hope this cheers you up.


But,as you no longer read my comments [ HAHAHAHAHA ], I guess it does not matter.

Hey, just wait until I get warmed up...



I looked up the case
She went in for an abortion and is now suing the doctor, because she had an abortion?

Husker2
Let the local authorities investigate the case for the pertinent facts as to what actually happened. Then, I will defer to the local DA as to the best, most legal course of action.

As to your comments about attitude; what right is it of yours to try and limit my thoughts and discussions on the topic at hand? I will say what I think, if I think it is appropriate. My impressions of the attitudes about the posters and columnist on this website are just as valid as yours. I will respect your right to make comments and I demand the right to make mine.

Alice
You think an unemployed, unmarried woman should have 14 kids, not sure of the ages but i believe most of the 6 original ones are young also. You think that is a good way to go more power to you. I think most on here that have a problem with it would be concerned about the kids. Its not a question of abortion, she already had 6 kids, I'm thinking she is a screwball but thats just my opinion.

Alice
"As to your comments about attitude; what right is it of yours to try and limit my thoughts and discussions on the topic at hand? I will say what I think, if I think it is appropriate"

I agree, not wanting to limit your thoughts , what do you think about the Celtics losing 2 in a row at home? Do you think they need a big man, a point guard or both?

Alice
I'm sorry! I've obviously upset you.

If you go back and reread your 1:33 p.m. post, you made some pretty demeaning comments about the readers here.

Did I say you don't have a right? No.

Did I say your attitudes weren't valid? No.

I DID ask you to stick to the topic at hand, and the topic at hand is not about the woman with 14 kids.

You wrote: "I demand the right to make mine."

Well, go right ahead! Just ignore me, and say whatever comes into your head.

I WILL say this to you: Your statement that you will defer to the local DA as to the best course of legal action is a cop-out.

The whole point of this column is to discuss the issue raised by the article.

Husker 2
Let the local authorities investigate the case for the pertinent facts as to what actually happened. Then, I will defer to the local DA as to the best, most legal course of action.

As to your comments about attitude; what right is it of yours to try and limit my thoughts and discussions on the topic at hand? I will say what I think, if I think it is appropriate. My impressions of the attitudes about the posters and columnist on this website are just as valid as yours. I will respect your right to make comments and I demand the right to make mine.

Alice
Isn't that neat?

I can answer you before you even post the comment.

Alice
He's right. This column isn't about the woman with the 14 kids. Bill O'Reilly's last column was on that topic. Perhaps you ought to post your comments there.

Fox News on this abortion
Here is a link to Fox News about this botched abortion:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489227,00.html

Laminaria
Forgive me if someone has said this before. I don't have time to read all the comments here at work. A laminaria is not a drug. It is a roll of sea algae inserted in a woman's cervix. Overnight the sea algae soaks up moisture from the woman's, er, girly bits, and swells up, thus manually dilating the cervix.

The Answer Is:
Gonzales should be charged with murder.
Renelique should be charged with manslaughter.

Let this be a lesson to you all: Never, never go to a physician who received his training in a third world country such as Haiti!! Other countries to avoid are Bangladesh, Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran or Mexico (yes, Mexico) among others. Do not go to an American physician who got his degree from an offshore medical college. They will be subpar from the getgo.

Don't be afraid to ask about the doctor's training BEFORE you make the appointment. Use your brain.

All of them bear guilt
All present in the room (and office staff that assisted)--including the "mother" should be charged.

While we are at it, B. O. should be included as an accessory.

It would have died anyway
The baby would have died anyway. The same as every other human being on the planet. It is no defense against a murder charge.

Murder
Gonzales, first degree, her actions showed pre-meditation.
Dr. Renewhatever, depraved heart second degree murder (presuming he has a heart). His willful negligence caused the death of that baby.
The autopsy should be able to prove whether or not there was air in the baby's lungs.
No, the defense can't argue that the child would have died anyway. To allow such an argument disrespects the life of the victim.
Too bad too many lawyers will argue otherwise and too many judges will buy it.

How can you prosecute
this case for homicide when murdering babies is legal in this country? That "clinic" was in the business of murdering babies, with government approval. What is the difference between this case and stabbing a scissor into a baby's skull and sucking its brains out? Or injecting saline into the uterus so the baby dies a slow painful death?

And why wouldn't you prosecute the mother who planned her own baby's murder? In my mind, she has no business bringing charges against the doctor and clinic for doing what she contracted them to do. Abortion is obscene...live with it!

Sad Will
Will you need to get the hell out of California, it is rotting your mind, your body and most definitely your soul. It is not too late. There is still "Real Hope" for you if you can see the err to your ways. I pray for you. Good luck

they can't
I was going to write about how no charges will be brought against the clinic, the doctor, or the clinician. And now we see that that is exactly the case.

No charges can be made because that does nothing more than show Abortion for the lie it is.

What irony. Women goes in to have baby killed. Baby dies. This has happened millions upon millions of times.

But here we have a case where, oops, one got away and dared to gasp for air--what's to be done? Why let her die of course. Same result.

But if the clinic can be charged with manslaughter?! Then is any abortion clinic safe?
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