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Monday, December 29, 2008
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
SAE v. UNC
by Mike Adams
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A few weeks ago I reported on an incident at UNC-Wilmington involving the punishment of a fraternity for the brief display of a banner, which included a small representation of a Confederate Flag. I referred to the fraternity with a pseudonym (Alpha Epsilon Sigma) in order to respect their wishes to avoid turning the conflict into a major news story. Now that the fraternity has reconsidered and decided to fight UNCW I am free to refer to the fraternity by its real name, Sigma Alpha Epsilon.

In my previous column, I asked readers around the country to a) write a donation to UNCW in the amount of $.02, and b) demand a receipt via mail. This was done to make sure the university paid a $.40 fine (two cents minus forty-two cents for a stamp) to all of my readers who were offended by a public university that punishes constitutionally protected activity as so-called hate speech.

(Note: I also asked people to join me in sending Confederate Flags to Office of the Chancellor, Alderman Hall, UNCW, Wilmington, NC, 28403).

Just a few days before Christmas UNCW started to mail back checks with the following form response: “We have received your check in response to the alleged Confederate Flag incident. You have been misinformed. We are returning your check because no fraternity or other student organization has been suspended due to a display of a Confederate Flag. Thank you.”

In other words, the university is accusing me of lying. They are also indirectly accusing my three sources - two officers of SAE and their chapter advisor – of lying. But anyone familiar with UNCW knows we are all telling the truth and, as usual, the administration is the party guilty of deception.

This kind of dishonesty among university administrators has become a serious problem. First, the university enacts speech codes, which clearly violate the First Amendment. Second, the university selectively enforces the codes in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. Finally, they top it all off by lying to the public and falsely accusing their students and faculty of lying.

This simply cannot continue. And today I plan to do something about it by exposing the university administration for both unconstitutional activity and blatant dishonesty. Relying upon NCGS 132 – the public records law of North Carolina – I am asking all of my readers who were misled by the university to send the following letter to the provided address:

Vice Chancellor Pat Leonard
Alderman Hall
UNC-Wilmington
Wilmington, NC, 28403

Vice Chancellor Leonard:

Pursuant to NCGS 132, I am requesting all correspondence between officials at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington (UNCW) and Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity (SAE) as it relates to their alleged suspension – for whatever reason – from participation in intramural activities for the remainder of the 2008-09 academic year.

I am also seeking copies of all relevant university policies upon which any disciplinary action was based. This request is directed towards, but not limited to, any university speech codes or any broader codes directed towards student speech and/or conduct.

Furthermore, I am requesting any correspondence between the Kappa Alpha fraternity and officials of UNC-Wilmington as it relates to the alleged suspension of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Finally, I am seeking all correspondence including, but not limited to emails and other memoranda, used by university personnel during its preparation of the form denial of Sigma Alpha Epsilon’s suspension.

I thank you in advance for your cooperation.

DrAdams.org (substitute reader name)
PO Box 319 (substitute reader address)
Wrightsville Beach, NC 28480

I expect the results of this public records request to reveal three things: 1) SAE was, in fact, suspended from participation in intramurals for the rest of the academic year, 2) the suspension was a result of their brief display of a banner with a Confederate Flag, and 3) the university attempted to cover up the unconstitutional suspension by fabricating alternative reasons for the SAE suspension.

If I am wrong about any of my predictions, I will offer a public apology to the university. If not, I will offer a list of “suggested firings” within the UNC-Wilmington administration.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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This is a tough one
It bothers me to see a Confederate flag, because in my part of the country it seems to be an announcement,"hey, look at me, I'm a racist." I'm sure the meaning is quite different in the South.

But it bothers me more that these University officials pick and choose what to stifle. Had the students been disrespectful to Old Glory, would the backlash been so harsh? (Or would the act have been overlooked completely?)


Not So Tough
As a student at UNCW, I am appalled. Any student at UNCW- whether Greek or not- would agree that the Confederate Flag represents southern heritage. With such southern traditions, it should come as no surprise that SAE was founded at the University of Alabama. The Confederate flag is in no way a representation of racism- in any form. Those who believe otherwise lack basic knowledge in the history of the United States. As far as the interference from the school goes, UNCW needs to get their priorities straight-- there are certainly bigger issues on our campus to be dealt with.

My, oh my.
There will certainly be some soiled underwear at the administration office Monday morning when someone tells them about this column.

Me thinks the good doctor already has his information.

Anyone willing to take bets on it?


Not So Tough
As a student at UNCW, I am appalled. Any student at UNCW- whether Greek or not- would agree that the Confederate Flag represents southern heritage. With such southern traditions, it should come as no surprise that SAE was founded at the University of Alabama. The Confederate flag is in no way a representation of racism- in any form. Those who believe otherwise lack basic knowledge in the history of the United States. As far as the interference from the school goes, UNCW needs to get their priorities straight-- there are certainly bigger issues on our campus to be dealt with.

Oh, Mike! Imagine...
A university accusing YOU (of all people) of LYING!

"Lying" is such a harsh, take-no-prisoners, confrontational & in-your-face word! Maybe the university should be a bit more respectful... and intimate that you EMBROIDER the truth as you see fit! This seems accurate enough. You embroider and embellish a topic as surely as a seamstress adding color and flair to an outfit.


"The university is accusing me of lying... This kind of dishonesty among university administrators has become (etc).... lying to the public and falsely accusing their students and faculty of lying.... unconstitutional activity and blatant dishonesty"

You know, the tone of this column sounds like you're nervous and personally affronted -- and redoubling your tracks to spin & put yourself in a positive light. You get agitated over practically nothing, Mike. Like your entire reputation was at stake.

It seems you have no backbone, man.

amazing
Mike Adams does everything completely above board and in full view of the public and UNCW does the usual liberal, double-speak, intimidation, run and hide tactics and some dumb slob of a moronic democrat says MR. ADAMS has no spine !?!

correction: the above reference to our liberal "friend" is not "amazing", but rather, it is an example of a common sub-species of garden slug known as the "willtroll-for-anyone-to-respondus".(Oops! Did I just get stuck in its slime trail?)

Its no wonder Will refers to Back Bone..
of course for a gay guy that is redundant...Dr. adams has facts (such as written documents addressed to the fraternity in question)to back his accusation and UNC wilmington has nothing. Liberals lie all the time and usually have no evidence for wrongdoing. (see Iran contra for details on what Im talking about)

the only thing that helps dr. adams keep his job at that marxist university is the fact that he knows the constitution better than the marxists. those idiots continue to prove our theories about marxists everyday, they say one thing but mean something else. When they say freedom, they are talking about their own exclusively. when they talk about tolerance , they are talking about liberal homosexuals, feminazi's and racial minorities alone.

leave the gay talk out of this okay!

Speech Codes
The most obvious problem with speech codes is that a handful of people get the power to decide what is appropriate and what isn’t appropriate for the rest of the community. Would liberals mind if these chosen ones were mostly conservatives?

This is just more evidence that speech codes should be have no place in our society....especially in our so-called academic institutions (“Where we teach people 'how' to think, not 'what' to think”). We either have freedom of speech or we don’t.

Well said Thomas
well said

Will
I hope you enjoyed the Christmas holiday, which celebrates the birth of the One who died to save us all. I hope 2009 brings you good health and a new understanding of the love that Christians have for all people. We will continue to pray for you. God bless you, and Happy New Year!

My .02 cents not returned YET!
I taped 2 pennies to a 3x5 card and mailed them and they as of now not returned them so I'll keep you posted.

Julie,
It's heritage not hate. Too bad you've been conditioned to believe that the Civil war was all about slavery...it wasn't it was to preserve the Union first...Slavery was already on it's way out when the Civil War started in April 1861.
If the past is not remembered with ALL the facts, then yes, it can be considered to be about slavery.
but
It the sight if a Confederate BATTLE Flag bothers you ( and it was a battle flag not the Confederate Flag) upgrade your education get some old books on the Civil War not the current politically "incorrect" ones.

test
a comment

HISTORY
To all my Southern Friends,we should never allow our Flag to be removed from any where it is flying,it is heritage.People that believe different should definitely upgrade their History.There are plenty of older books out there that will give you the correct History and meanings of the Flag.

Lying
I knew when I received the university’s, anonymous, undated, unsigned, reply to my Confederate Flag incident contribution, it was a lie. My letter to the Vice Chancellor is in the mail. Richard, Newnan, GA

Mike; Why do you think
the University will comply with your request?

Even if they demonstrate a factitious attempt to comply with your request, what is to prevent them from omitting the most pejorative material?

ignore the trolls
will, wobbie and the other pukes will steer the conversation into some 'besides the point corner'

Flag Symbolism
This is a tough one for me Mike. I truly understand that the Confederate Flag, as it is known, has no fundamental significance of hatred. However, the flag has become an overt symbol by many who wish to display it in an in-your-face aggressive manner. This method of display is itself an antagonistic form of behavior.

That said; the students who displayed this flag as they did should be protected under their First Amendment rights from governmental abuse, which by the way, this form of speech was declared protected by an at-the-time liberal Supreme Court. The UNCW administration should recognize the controversy they will elicit when they react as they do, especially knowing that they have such an affectionate curmudgeon as you on their tenured (protected) staff.

I have to agree with you for the most part Mike. I usually do agree with your positions. However, the Confederate Flag issue (and the South lost that war so people should get over it) has morphed into a hostile symbol for many, though there are probably many more that simply honor it as a symbol of their heritage. It comes down to the manner in which it is displayed.

Finally, I appreciate it when people use symbolism to display openly their personality. In-your-face Confederate Flags, sagging pants, gang tattoos, comportment and demeanor, hairstyles, and other visible displays make it easy to identify others for what they are. It removes the guesswork.

Hey! Write more often Mike. I always search for your latest before any of the others.



Flag lies
I received my $.05 donation to the the Univ., back last week with the same explanation and wondered why--now it will be sent again with a copy of your letter to the mendacious weasels.

Why can't the muckity-mucks of the administration ever tell the TRUTH?!!!

Keep after the pukes, Dr. Adams

Even If
The University fully complies with the request for information, and the information provided does show a violation of student rights, your suggested firing list makes no difference. The University will not appropriately comply with law and remove those who violated student rights, for the University encourages that from its faculty.

One thing, though....
If you do write - as I have, make sure the letter is DATED, If it is not, it may ( read will, given the nature of these weasels ) be rejected without action as an incomplete request.

5th attempt to post..@ Booker in FL
The problem with what you said is that if you truly understand about the flag it shouldn't bother you at all.

What should drive you nuts is the fact that the thugs using the battle flag in a wrong way are just products of the perverted public educational system which is methodically destroying American Children with political incorrect crapola.

Doug (and everybody):
Happy holidays!

(No, I'm not a divine Jesus person! But, yes, I do enjoy Christmastime on a purely secular level.)

It seems to me the right should be looking at these cultural issues with an eye towards being more conciliatory - towards coming together - instead of being constantly devisive.

I understand that Mike is a columnist and it is his job (I suppose) to frame these columns at Townhall in a partisan "us-them" manner, but he (and many of you) are just running yourselves into the ground trying to have things your own way. I can't remember a single column where Adams actually acted like a MAN -- and tried to come up with practical solutions to cultural problems (no, religion is NOT a solution!) instead of this steady drumbeat of highbrow whining.

First we can't post now everything's
in duplicate...go figure

Will, if you don't have something nice to say PLEASE don't say anything or didn't you learn that in your indoctrination?

What other flags?
What other flags are banned from the campus of the university?

In Your Face
I am totally offended by the "in your face" activities homosexual lobby and their corruption of the rainbow. I can care less about those offended by the flags of the Confederacy. Go whine and eat your brie, or smoke your organic weed.

Flags
The Third National flag of the CSA is often referred to as "the unsurrendered banner", and it is my personal favorite. Most people 1) do not know that the Confederacy had three national flags; and 2), that the banner known as the "battle flag", was exactly that, a banner flown by field troops to make their identification much easier at a distance; and, 3) not all CSA field divisions had the same battle flag.

It seems to me that the folks at UNC-Wilmington could use a serious history lesson, or perhaps two, regarding the War of Northern Aggression.

Exposure of Intolerant Tolerance
Just another prime example of the education systems efforts to "mold their little minds" as to create generations that will accept any explaination without question. Lies become truth by badgering and villifying the source; willingness to question the authorities stance of an issue is publicly denounced as misinformed , misrepresented and hate speeach that is devisive. These tactics are repeated to include attacks on personal character so as to paint those who would bring forth the question of actions as almost less than qualified or even intellegent enough to question in the first place. Deflect and ridicule, degrade and assasinate; GEE, it almost sound like some of the posts you read here. All of which leaves the impression that tolerance of others is only the accepted norm when it coincides with their subjegated plan of having you think as they would like you to think. They are right, you are wrong and you will be damned if you defend truth.

Will @ 0912.......
Will opines: "It seems to me the right should be looking at these cultural issues with an eye towards being more conciliatory - towards coming together - instead of being constantly devisive.

nutnfinr responds: "It seems to me the LEFT should be looking at these cultural issues with an eye towards being more conciliatory - towards coming together - instead of being constantly devisive."

Will, you think conciliation is conservatives accepting your premise rather than both sides giving a bit. Sort of like the UAW with the big three cars makers. My position echos Ronald Reagan's famous quote (paraphrased because of my imperfect memory): "My solution to the cold war is, we win, they lose."

Will (or Josh or The7Sticks or ?)
You wrote: "I can't remember a single column where Adams actually acted like a MAN"

I later may be sorry for asking this, but since you put the word in uppercase, what would you call acting "like a MAN"?

Donations
When you send your "donation" to the university, make sure you send it as a check. It costs the organization more (in terms of labor and processing costs) to handle a check than to handle cash.

Ms. Aries
Did you read the original article? Adams was condemning the double-standard of allowing the university to sponsor the n-word while banning the rebel flag.

Please re-read and also refrain from using the phrase "you people" when hurling accusations of racism.

To WestTexan
WestTexan writes, "I am totally offended by the "in your face" activities homosexual lobby and their corruption of the rainbow." Gee, I didn't know that issue was a topic of this column.


Ms. Aries: An Historical Note
Ms. Aries, if you were educated in the public schools you may not have ever learned this but the Republican Party actually freed the slaves.

Lincoln
MS. Aries, once upon a time there was a dude named Lincoln. He helped form a party - the Republican Party - that was opposed to slavery. He signed the Emancipation Proclamation. He supported the 13th Amedendment but never lived to see it ratified because he as shot by a racist named Booth.

The true racists have always been after the GOP. Ms. Aries, are you just another racist?

To Jack
The Emancipation Proclamation Act of 1863 only freed the slaves in the States that were in rebellion. It was not until after the war that the rest were freed. It is an interesting side note that Robert E. Lee freed his slaves during the war. He had inherited them from his father-in-law. And, it was in his father-in-law's will that the slaves were to be freed.

swampy
"The Emancipation Proclamation Act of 1863 only freed the slaves in the States that were in rebellion."

Yes, I know that. Is there a point you wish to make?


Sigh....
My daughter's college is going through the same issue except the dispute is between a fraternity and a professor. Now the fraternity is suing the professor.

I think people who get their panties in a wad over a confederate flag have way too much time on their hands. It matters little whether it is a symbol of racism or not....they still have way too much time on their hands.

will
(No, I'm not a divine Jesus person! But, yes, I do enjoy Christmastime on a purely secular level.)

So like the atheist that you are you co-opted Christmas so you can be greedy and party.

What a phony you are.

Lolo1
There you go. You got right to the central point. These people are bored administrators trying to justify a salary by persecuting a bunch of kids.

Lincoln elected in 1864
Lincoln was re-elected in November 1864. The name of the Republican Party was changed to the Union Party. Lincoln's Vice-President was a former Democrat from Tennessee, Andrew Johnson.

Flags
Funny how there is only a problem with the Confederate Battle flag, Israel's flag, and the United States of America flag for liberals while they seem to cherish the right to support the flags of oppressive and/or terrorist countries and organizations.

When have liberal administrators sanctioned Hamas or Hezbollah supporters who proudly show their colors?

When have liberal administrators sanctioned China or North Korea supporters who proudly show their colors?

Dr. Adams is standing up for the very same rights, IAW the Constitution, that people have stood for throughout the existence of our country. The same rights used by Will (as one example) to speak freely even when some may be offended. The same rights to oppose an oppressive government (public funded educational institution).

Confedrate Battle Flag
I was amazed, when my donation to UNCW was returned with that laughable explanation. I could not believe that Dr. Adams was wrong. I could not believe that any university would not accept my hard earned money ( $0.02 check, and $1.50 in CSA money). Are they so well funded that they would not accept a donation?
By they way, a major reason for the War Between the States was that the North wanted Southern products at a price lower than England was prepared to pay.

confederate flag
the flag has different meanings for different folks folks. (There are
several books that explore this in meaningful and enlightening ways.)
Southern pride is one of them.
But hate surely is another.
The War of the Rebellion as I understand it was fought over states'
rights and the #1 right (sic) the states that opted for rebellion was
the right (sic) to keep slaves. If one person having power over
another for no reason than who each was born to is not a system of
hatred I don't know what is.

The flag imo is like yelling fire, not in a crowded theatre, but out in
the open. Should it be allowed? I would have to say yes. The same
EXACT way one would have to allow the Nazi flag. Both are
completely analogous and completely stupid.

Swampfox @11:16 am
This is from Wikipedia:
The National Union Party was created in May 1864 during the Civil War. Anti-Lincoln 1. "Radical" Republicans held the belief that Lincoln was incompetent, and therefore could not be re-elected. A number of Radical Republicans formed a party called the Radical Democracy Party, and a few hundred delegates convened in Cleveland starting on May 31, 1864, eventually nominating John C. Frémont, who had also been the Republicans' first presidential standard-bearer during the 1856 U.S. presidential election.
Republicans loyal to Lincoln created a new name for their party in convention at 1. Baltimore, Maryland during the first week in June 1864, in order to accommodate the War Democrats who supported the war and wished to separate themselves from the Copperheads. This is the main reason why War Democrat Andrew Johnson was selected to be the Vice Presidential nominee; then-current Vice President Hannibal Hamlin was not nominated. The National Unionists supporting the Lincoln-Johnson ticket also hoped that the new party would stress the national character of the war.

Abraham Lincoln was still a Republican; Andrew Johnson was still a Democrat, and,just as Lincoln, was hated by the radical Republicans.

Accuracy

A careful reading of the Emancipation Proclamation reveals that Lincoln did not "free' anyone with this document. Note that where he "freed" slaves he had no authority to do so. Also, note that where he did not "free" slaves, the north, he had the power to do so. A purely political document. When teaching, I referred to the Late Unpleasantness as "The War to End Yankee Arrogance," and I am reminded daily that we lost it.

Random Thoughts:
I will never give up my Confederate flag - a reminder of my Southern Heritage and my great grandfather's pride of serving in the Confederate Army.

NOR, will never give up my Yankee Civil War flag as it is a reminder of my Northern Heritage and the pride my other great grandfather had in serving in the 18th PA Cavalry.


My southern great grandfather owned slaves and he joined the Confederate Army to protect his country - the Confederate states.

The same goes for my northern great grandfather.

Flying my Confederate flag does not mean I am racist. I am not. We can't rewrite history to suit the needs of one without offending another....proven facts look at this thread

It's Just heritage NOT hate

Jack @10:59 am
Jack, I think that Swampfox's point is that Abraham Lincoln did not free any slaves. He carefully avoided declaring that the slaves in any area not under the control of the Confederacy were free.

Prof Adams....
I am sending the recommended letter to VC Leonard today, registered, return receipt requested. I am also sending a copy of the letter to the Office of the North Carolina Attorney General at 9001 Mail Service Center, Raleigh, NC 27699-9001, registered, return receipt requested.

That way neither addressee can later say they did not receive my letters. It will be interesting to see the response from VC Leonard.

I believe the NC law allows agencies who provide information in response to such a request may charge a reasonable sum to do so. I can stand a small amount, but if they want a huge amount of money to do so, how do you suggest it be raised? I wonder if they are allowed to charge EVERY person who requests the information a large fee. Everyone who sends a request should demand a response with the information!

I particularly like the idea of using the left's tactics to put universities on notice that they can no longer get away with the unconstitutional male bovine excrement they are shoveling out to their students. I plan to share any information I get in response with you, the NC Attorney General and with major newspapers throughout North Carolina. Please keep us informed of future needs for our help at UNCW and at universities elsewhere.

Keep up the good work, Mike!

NC General Statute 132...
You may find out about what the law says about fees for requested information at:

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTM L/BySection/Chapter_132/GS_132-6.2.html

Subparagraph (b) is particularly helpful.

Happy New Year, UNC-W!!

It's not just heritage, it's also hate
As I said earlier the Confederate Flag's symbolism is not controlled
or felt by just one group - Southern sympathizers.

If you understand the Civil War as being fought for the reasons I think
it was fought for (see previous post) it seems as good a symbol of hate
as I can think of.

Race in America
SCOTS SEEK REPARATIONS FROM AFRICAN AMERICANS. Read more at, http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com/2008/12/scots-seek-rep arations-from-african.html

freeing slaves under the Emanc. Proclam.
Slaves were freed under the Emancipation Proclamation - virtually all
of them.

Now, none were freed the day it was signed, that's true.

But as federal troops liberated areas that had been previously in
rebellion from 1/1/1863 to 4/1865 those slaves were now "forever free."

As an ancestor.....
of an Ohio Union artillery captain at Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, and Hilton Head.....I feel strongly that the Battle FLAG flying at UNCW is an expression of heritage.....and should be proudly flown.

EVEN during the civil war, many northern troops recognized southerners as American brothers (literally), and had enormous RESPECT for southern fighting prowess and undaunting courage.


Even if expression is unpopular, it is protected by the 1st amendment.....if the southern BATTLE flag comes down.....then the RAINBOW flag...and the illegal aliens flags MUST come down as well.


Todays "civil" war is anything but Civil
The Civil War historical fiction movie
"Gettysburg" (which I loved)
However it was an historical FICTION book by Micheal Shaara called The Killer Angels which was so well adapted to the Big screen.

Col. Chamberlin's aide de camp (his brother Tom) was taking to a group of 3 confederate's from Tennessee and asked why they were fighting this war one replied for our rights (made to sound like rats in bad southern drawl) then in turn the confederates asked Tom why was he fighting...He said "to free the slaves of course, and, to preserve the union" then Thanked them for talking to him and said see you in hell johnny-reb and the confederate responded see you in hell billy yank.
The war was actually CIVIL unlike today's incivility towards one another of different opinion.

Edna Eagle
Did you ever see "Gods and Generals", the prequel to "Gettysburg"? The book was written by Michael Shaara's son, Jeff Shaara. The movie doesn't hold a candle to the book (movies seldom do), but it's still pretty good.

My favorite scene in the movie is during the Battle of Fredericksburg. During a lull in the fighting, a Union solider traded a cup of coffee to a Confederate soldier for a pipe full of tobacco. The Union soldier said, "Do you rebs have a lame horse you want to trade?"

The Confederate soldier replied, "What do you want to trade for a lame horse?"

The Union soldier said, "General Burnside!"

test
test

@ Ken in VA
Thanks for heads up! I've read some of Jeff Shaara's books but didn't know there was the movie...

Hi-ho hi-ho it's off to blockbusters I go ;)

Spot on!
Take it to them Dr. Adams. I have, for several years, been pointing out this hypocrisy to many. Please continue the mission.

Fair is as fair does...
Look, as a Black American (I despise the term "African-American"; I'm not from Africa) I'm no fan of the Confederate "Stars and Bars". HOWEVER, the only thing which pisses me off worse than that flag is hearing how a supposedly "open-minded" university is trampling on anyone's right to fly it. I may not agree with what a person says, but I'll be damned if I'm going to allow someone to infringe upon that persons' right to say it without me raising a stink about it - and then lie about having done so. If they can curtail SAE's right to free speech then they can surely curtail mine.

Good stuff
and by returning the checks, the university actually suffers a $0.42 loss rather than a $0.40. Please keep us posted here on the outcome.

Silver lion...
I doubt you're an ANCESTOR of any soldier who fought in the War of Southern Secession...

Just gettin' even

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Feels good!

Jim
Good post. As I understand it, the fraternity in question wasn't even flying the Confederate flag. They were displaying a banner that included a replica of the Confederate flag. To punish them for such a thing is more than slightly ridiculous.

I recall reading about a janitor who was penalized for reading a book with a swastika on the cover, even though the book was neither racist nor pro-Nazi. I have such a book in my own library. It's William Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." It's hardly pro-Nazi, but it does have a swastika on the front. I wonder how UNC officials would react if they saw me carrying that book on their campus?

People often wonder why today's college students are so immature. Personally, I think it's because they're being taught by a bunch of overgrown crybabies.

Many reasons
There were in fact many reasons for the Civil War. Thus the Confederate Battle Flag means many different things to many different people. It is indicative of how gov't-funded schols have lost their way that UNCW's kneejerk reaction was focused on censorship; censorship based on a specious and narrow-minded interpretation of what the Confederate Battle Flag represents.

A great teaching opportunity has been squandered in favor of using the force of public authority to hammer those who supposed to be served (meaning the students who displayed the banner) with political correctness.

Yet another example of those who are hired to be public servants presuming to abuse their office and become lords and masters over those they are supposed to serve.

The best post on this thread in Julie's. The same left that preaches diversity, tolerance, and respect for 1st Amendment rights when the Flag of the United States is being trampled or burned reacts with swift, authoritarian censorship when a vestige of Southern history is displayed.

The problem is that too many leftists are typified by everyonesfacts, who by his nickname pretends to deal in fact but who offers only selfish opinion. Everyonesfacts states that the Battle Flag represents hate among other things, but offers no information to support this claim. Moreover, even if the Battle Flag is occasionally used by some to display or express racism and/or hatred, it is not the only way it is used nor should such be the default interpretation.

We live in a baby nation.
The confederate flag is not a racist symbol it is the context in which it is used which is racist. As a southerner I feel that this outrage over the confederate flag represents a gross misunderstanding of the cause of the Civil War as being slavery. This is way too simple and leads to gradual delusion of minds towards simplicity rather the complicated cause and effect scenarios that often lead to wars, conflicts, and any other event. This flag was battle flag not the actual flag of the country. If a university can not differentiate between the two then we are in a sorry state of affairs.

Ms. Aries needs to read
a good history book. Maybe she and everyonesfacts could read one together.

The flag was nothing more than a symbol representing the Confederate States. It had nothing to do with hate! That's your interpretation...or as one poster said earlier, sounds like Josef Goebels!

The South was agricultural. They needed slave labor to do the work. They did not have the high-powered tractors and other equipment we have today. The South was fighting to preserve their way of life, for states' rights and a dozen other reasons.(READ)

A slave cost in today's dollars what could be equivalent to the cost of an automobile. Slave owners took care of their slaves. It was the slave traders who were cruel.

GET OVER IT! The flag is part of southern heritage and only the ignorant and uninformed object.

And Robbie, you donn't sound like a "good" teacher with all your biased opinions!

wisdom
other posters - 2 claiming to be black have told you how they feel -
many have protested in SC or boycotted against the state because of
the flag.

Let me google for you (here is 3 of 220,000):
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_confederate_flag.asp
http://www.seanbaby.com/news/naacp.htm
http://www.wtblock.com/wtblockjr/confeder.htm

So that the flag is a symbol of hate / slavery should be known by all,
especially any one claiming to be wise.
That the war was fought over state's rights - the #1 being slavery is
easily verifiable - google Alexander Stephens's Cornerstone Address
or David Potter's _The Impending Crisis_ for the default study on
how the war began.

I don't consider myself a leftist - so this is a good example for use
in this discussion = wiseone sees a leftist, I consider myself a
pragmatist, others might see a libertarian based on my views on
the flags, others someone well versed in history (at least when it
comes to the Emancipation Proclamation, and others who knows?
The same can be said for the stars and bars - Southern pride, hatred,
rebellion or rebelliousness, anti-fed, slavery, ignorance, etc., etc.
Overall, Southern (not state) pride/heritage and hatred (see heritage)
are the 2 leading interpretations of the flag's meaning. Google it.







context
poster: "The confederate flag is not a racist symbol it is the context in which it is used which is racist."
That is part true. But the other part is what you say next is also true:
"As a [white] southerner"
It also is viewed in the context of who people are and how they were
raised. For some the flag will always be a symbol of pride and others
a symbol of hate.

Then you go onto misrepresent or understand what the war was
actually fought over SLAVERY / STATE"S RIGHTS (in defense of
slavery). Look again at Stephens's Cornerstone Address and Lincoln's
1st and 2nd Inaugural Addresses. It is complicated, but the one
word answer to what was the Civil War fought over need not be.

Matlock which book would you like me to read?
I've read several on the topic - and seen many historians talk on the subject and even presented on the topic so I would be interested in
hearing which book(s) would improve my thinking on the subject.
I'm sure others would be as well.

I did not read, but did see the author of a book on the history and
continuous importance (dispute over?) the flag on C-Span a few
years ago.

(I found it interesting that you dis my belief that slavery or states'
rights in defense of slavery was not the cause of the war and then
go on to mention the south was an agricultural area and thus needed
. . . wait for it . . . slaves. Not true, btw, since most of Latin America
and the world had already ended slavery. And so would the U.S. in
1865.

Lastly as most people know who stops to think about it symbols
change their meaning over time (which does not mean their is not a
continuity in meaning too). I think the Confederate flag(s) has mostly
retained both its major meanings throughout time.

everyonesfacts
How many slaves did the Emancipation Proclamation actually free?

Everyonesfacts...
You are a typical leftist: twisting facts, deviating from the topic, blowing smoke...

You can start by reading The National Experience by Catton, Blum, Schlesinger, Morgan, Stampp, Woodward.

You are entitled, along with Ms. Aries, to think the flag is a symbol of hate; however, you don't do my thinking or think for others so quit making assumptions about its meaning. Southerners are proud of their heritage. We don't see hate involved at all, and I'm from the north originally.

#s on E.P.
That is hard to say.
I am not sure anyone has anything near exact #s, but wherever the
federal army was victorious in the Southern states after 1/1/1863 the
slaves were freed. A good example of how this policy could hamper
the federal army is during Sherman's March to the Sea - the problems with followers led to Sherman's famous Field Order No. 10.

I'm not sure of a good estimate - probably Allan Guelzo would know
best. Good question - I'm sure one could take the slave populations in
counties before the war and then compare the counties controlled by
the union at the end of the war to find a good guesstimate. Of course
many slaves self-emancipated or lied where they were from so they
would be forever free.

Reply to kf6eml in MI......
That's a baseless assertion on YOUR part. Why attack my credibility on the issue?....Just to pi$$ you off...I've had ancestors at Valley Forge as well......some even BEFORE 1776.....have a good day!

take a chill pill
While I agree that SAE should have the right to fly whatever they want to, it would behoove many of you readers who rely on the simple argument that the Rebel Flag is simply a show off "Southern Pride." With how much your paying for your education, I would have that at least someone would have brought up the fact that the Rebel Flag wasn't seriously flown since the Civil War until the mid 20th century ... as a stance against the NAACP and the whole equality movement. That, combined with fact that I'd venture to say a majority of SAE brothers are a bit "intolerant", hopefully should make you reconsider why they flew that flag. But no, they shouldn't have been banned from intramurals, that's just my 2 cents.

For everyonesfacts
You are a leftist.

On this board you are a leftist troll.

I have seen many of your posts on this board and they always follow the same pattern. You try to adopt an air of a neutral fact finder but somehow all of your conclusions end up being long on liberal opinion and short on facts and evidence. In many cases your kneejerk liberal opinions actually contradict known facts and/or evidence.

There is no argument weaker than that of a partisan who refuses to acknowledge his partisanship.

Self knowledge is a beautiful thing. You should try a dose.

One thing more. You need to respond to Julie, who points out how the left always defend those who desecrate the Flag of the United States under the First Amendment but then presume to arbitrarily and unilaterally revoke the First Amendment rights of those who display the Confederate Battle Flag. You need to ask yourself who's doing the stereotyping, who's being intolerant, who's condemning people without a trial, when you conclude that any use of the Battle Flag depicts hatred.

You and your ilk are the bigots. You and your ilk are the haters.

Will
I have indeed had a very happy holiday season...skiing in Idaho followed by golfing in California. I am now back in Florida to go back to work to pay for it all. On behalf of the Christian community, I would like to apologize for all of the hateful insults people have directed at you. These are pseudo-christians. Christianity is about love of all humans, and there are many who do not understand that. You and I may have some disagreements, but you are a fellow human being and therefore I care for you as much as anybody except my family. Sorry but I do play favorites there. Perhaps if you were more civil in expressing your differences, others might not be so nasty towards you.

everyonesfacts
Actually a sum total of ZERO.

Silver Lion
You are the descendant of Confederate veterans, not their ancestor. They are your ancestors.

For Joshua
"That, combined with fact that I'd venture to say a majority of SAE brothers are a bit "intolerant", hopefully should make you reconsider why they flew that flag."

Now you're passing judgment on guys you've never met over a banner you've never seen.

You are the one who is "intolerant". Allowing them to play intramural sports is awfully generous of your highness. Now try granting them their equal rights under the First, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendments.

These guys have a right to put in their "two cents" just as you do. I'm sure they have no higher regard for your position on this issue than you have for theirs. The only difference is that they aren't bashing you or presuming to decide whether you should be allowed to play in an intramural sports league that your tuition is helping to pay for just because they disagree with you.

BTW - your assertion that the Battle Flag was never displayed after the Civil War until Ernest Hollings, a liberal Democrat, raised it over the SC Statehouse in opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is just flat out wrong.

Thousands of scholars have acknowledged the numerous very legitimate reasons why the South tried to secede that had nothing to do with slavery. Robert E. Lee freed his slaves BEFORE taking command of the Confederate Army. If the war and the Battle Flag were only about slavery and discrimination this would never have happened.

It is more likely that once Hollings, a bigoted, segregationist, liberal Democrat, used it in a racist manner it became a symbol of racism only to leftist simpletons. If you want to be a leftist simpleton then all you have to do is keep pigeon-holing every use of the Battle Flag into the "racist" and/or "hater" categories.

This is what you call "evidence"?
For everyonesfacts:

So you "googled" and found three hits that agree with you. So what?

When I typed "Confederate Battle Flag" into my search engine I got over 1,400,000 hits. The first, from Wikipedia, included the following statement.

"The flag of North Carolina is based on the state's 1861 flag which dates back to the confederacy and appears to be based on the first confederate flag."

So a group of students at the University of North Carolina cannot display the forerunner of their state's flag without being accused, tried, and convicted of "hate" without so much as a hearing by the school (which itself is an extension of a State that uses a variation of the same flag) and by arrogant liberal fools like everyonesfacts.

Clowns like you would be laughable if there weren't enough of you to make you dangerous.

reply to comments
book suggestion: "You can start by reading The National Experience by Catton, Blum, Schlesinger, Morgan, Stampp, Woodward."

A textbook?
Why not just Catton's trilogy or Stampp's The Peculiar Institution?
I would challenge you to find anything in the textbook that goes against what I've asserted.

"You are entitled, along with Ms. Aries, to think the flag is a symbol of hate; however, you don't do my thinking or think for others so quit making assumptions about its meaning. Southerners are proud of their heritage. We don't see hate involved at all, and I'm from the north originally."

I am not assuming anything about its meaning - it has several - the
posts on this list prove that. So does this write up of Jerome Coski's
_The Confederate Battle Flag_:
Coski's book will speak to the flag's opponents as well as its defenders, but his most inspired message is aimed at those cheerleaders who insist that the flag has one, unchanging, fundamentally benign meaning. He shows that the history of the flag is simply too complicated for anybody to reach such simplistic conclusions..

And this review tells you why it has been popular since WWII:
"Coski argues convincingly that use of the emblem was relatively infrequent and uncontroversial until it was adopted in semiofficial fashion by the 1948 Dixiecrat convention in Birmingham, Alabama. Thereafter the battle flag was associated closely in the public mind with the fight against integration"

So hatred is definitely on the agenda.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/COSCON.html?show=reviews

reply to comments
For everyonesfacts
You are a leftist.

"On this board you are a leftist troll."
That is one opinion, yours.
A troll by definition posts on something not related to the article -
that is not what I am doing.
People who know me, generally think I am a libertarian, I would say
I am a pragmatists.
My conclusions in relation to this article were that the students
should be able to fly or wear the flag of their choice. Is that the
leftist position? I do not know. wiser ones than me probably know
better.

If my opinions contradict any facts I've shown please tell me.
This has not happened on this board.

I would defend those who desecrate the American flag the same way
I am defending students wearing or flying the stars and bars even
though both are not actions I would take myself. I do not defend
the administration in any of my posts, I do acknowledge one of
the symbolic meanings of the flag is hatred. This has been an
epiphany to posters like Matlock. This I am surprised at and does
show my ignorance that I thought most people would know that
the flag shows 1) pride in the South and 2) (race) hatred

I do not feel hatred towards posters on this list or the frat kids in
the article and am not sure how I am a bigot based on my posts on
this list or elsewhere.

ExRCSD Deputy...LMAO....
You are absolutely correct.....lol......heaven's to mergatroid...what I was thinking....lol...

Thanks.....wheweeeeeeee

reply to comments - emancipation #s
It seems that Guelzo agrees with me, Lerone Bennett's much
discussed and widely critiqued work agrees with you. I will gladly
take Guelzo who works arguably at the #1 college for Civil War
history, Gettysburg College:

"But what about the claims that the Proclamation actually freed no slaves and that it was the slaves themselves who, by running away, put pressure on Lincoln and Congress to "catch up" with the reality of self-emancipation? Guelzo shows that this account has things backwards. Lincoln may not have had the power on January 1, 1863, to free every slave in the Confederacy, but he had the authority to do so, and in law the authority is as good as the power. And it was the Emancipation Proclamation that provided the impetus for many slaves in territory not under federal control to run away. Perhaps more significantly, those runaways could not have remained "self-emancipated" for very long without the legal freedom conferred by the Proclamation. "Without the Proclamation, even a Confederacy in defeat would have retained legal title to its slaves, and there is little in the oppressive patterns of coercion Southerners employed before the Civil War or afterward in Reconstruction to suggest that they would not have been willing to reclaim as many of their self-emancipated runaways as they could, and if the record of the federal courts in the post-Civil War decades is any proof, the courts would probably have helped them."

http://www.nationalreview.com/books/owens200403251139.asp

One can even argue that the slaves in the area under rebellion were
all set free under the Emancipation Proclamation especially between
the time of the end of the war and the 13th Amendment.

reply to comments - evidence
wiseone, I am not sure you have read my posts closely nowhere do I
assert on what is the exact Confederate Flag.
Nowhere do I argue that the students should be punished for wearing or flying a Confederate Flag.

I did use Google to prove my assertion that the flag does, for some, represent hatred. (That is not all it represents or symbolizes)

You wrote:
"Everyonesfacts states that the Battle Flag represents hate among other things, but offers no information to support this claim. "

I gave you three websites that speak to this, the books I know on the
topic acknowledge the same and I imagine a few thousand of the
220,000 make this same assertion.

Wiseone I am not sure you are a clown, but please make sure you
know what the person you are replying to has posted.

robert e. lee and slaves
see here:
http://www.nps.gov/arho/historyculture/slavery.htm

Robert E. Lee POSSIBLY did have his slaves freed before taking
command of the Confederacy, but that was February of 1865:

http://www.stratfordhall.org/learn/lees/robert_e_lee.php

He did still own slaves when he took over command of the Army of
Northern Virginia, but freed the Custis' slaves before the issuance of
the Emancipation Proclamation as was mentioned in the will (5 years - the will says nothing about the EP.

William Mack Lee claims to have been a slave throughout the war -
and a darn good cook. I believe his autobiography is online.


everyonesfacts
Lee did free the slaves that his wife would have inherited from her father. As executor of the estate he followed the will's directive to free them, and did so in 1858. Personally, he owned no slaves.

BTW, have you ever read the EP? It freed no one.

Are you, also, aware that U.S. Grant's wife owned slaves, as did Lincoln's in-laws?

Everyonesfacts
Before I sign off...you just proved my point about leftists. (deviate, bloviate, twist, distort, blow smoke, etc.) Did I ask you what book to read? No, you asked me. I don't want your suggestions.

As for challenging me...my only concern was the so-called "hate" symbol. There were too many social, political, economic and cultural differences between the North and South. Slavery happened to be one of them.

I haven't seen any hate on these posts. Only people trying to explain to some know-it-alls that they can't read the hearts of others. The flag to us has nothing to do with racism any more than the flag of any other country or organization.

Dodging the point
everyonesfacts writes:

"...nowhere do I
assert on what is the exact Confederate Flag.
Nowhere do I argue that the students should be punished for wearing or flying a Confederate Flag.'

Completely off point. You said the flag means "hate". There are dozens of examples of varying forms of the Confederate flag being used to represent things other than bigotry and hate.

And it is you who have not read closely. I didn't say that you said the frat brothers should be punished. I said that you accused, tried, and convicted them of "hate" without so much as a hearing.

You have passed judgment on people about whom you know next to nothing over a symbol about which you also know next to nothing. You don't even know which version of the flag was displayed on the SAE banner. You know nothing about its origins or about the people who have displayed it over the years. You know nothing about what motivated the SAE brothers to display it.

You don't even know you are a liberal.

This episode epitomizes what is wrong with public education. Instead of investigating the history of the Confederate Flag and using this as a learning opportunity the hypersensitive nanny-state libs that run UNCW can only react with kneejerk liberal arrogance after leaping to conclusions unsupported by the evidence.

And you couldn't wait to jump on their fool's bandwagon.

Generals and slaves
Hiram Ulysses Grant himself owned slaves.
Robert Edward Lee had no slaves. He freed George Washington Custis's slaves after his father-in-law died in 1862.

in defense of joshua(attack on wise1's
posts)

wise1 again you do not read posts closely:

wiseone writes:
"BTW - your assertion that the Battle Flag was never displayed after the Civil War until Ernest Hollings, a liberal Democrat, raised it over the SC Statehouse in opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is just flat out wrong."

Joshua wrote:
"I would have that at least someone would have brought up the fact that the Rebel Flag wasn't seriously flown since the Civil War until the mid 20th century ... as a stance against the NAACP and the whole equality movement."
The author I cite above on the flag argues the date as 1948 - that's
mid century enough for me. And it was Strom Thurmond, not
Hollings who would have used it.

Joshua like myself is able to see that the rebel flag has more than one
symbolic importance - he acknowledges that. Your assertion that he
has pigeon-holed the symbolism is something you should think
about before replying to posters - your posts can be pigeon-holed
as having not fully read the post your replying to and then attacking
half the argument the previous poster has made.

everyonesfacts
Please see Robbi in S.C. @ 12:22 Dec. 29. The part about you, not the part about Lincoln. You prove his point.

I am an endangered species in FL (a southerner). My wife is from Boston, I have a sister-in-law from Michigan, and a sister-in-law from Thailand.

No one in my immediate family has ever "flown" any confederate flag but I have had cousins, uncles and other relatives and friends who have. You should try going to the source (especially when the source (that would be me) is still around).

you guys are freakin unbelievable!!! 1
I have read the EP and yes it did free slaves.
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=34
I do not think it freed any other than on paper on 1/1/1863
but again they were freed in a real way as the war progressed and the
federal armies took over areas that had been in rebellion on 1/1/1863.
The black followers of Sherman I gave as an example -
were they enslaved on 1/1/1863? My guess, yes.
were they freed as Sherman passed through? My guess, yes.
Were they ever reenslaved? No.
So yes slaves were freed or allowed to escape slavery forever (how much freer can you get!) because of the EP

I will let William Mack Lee speak for himself.
The Custis slaves were freed on the last date possible - and were
Lee's slaves (surely they weren't Custis's - he was dead!).

From the will, capitalization mine:
"And upon the legacies to my four granddaughters being paid, and my estates that are required to pay the said legacies, being clear of debts, then I give freedom to my slaves, the said slaves to be emancipated by my executors IN SUCH MANNER AS TO MY EXECUTORS MAY SEEM MOST EXPEDIENT and proper, the said EMANCIPATION TO BE ACCOMPLISHED IN NOT EXCEEDING FIVE YEARS FROM THE TIME OF MY DECEASE."
http://www.nathanielturner.com/willofgeorgewashingtonparkec ustis.htm

This and the National Park site mentioned before prove me right.
Yes, Grant owned slaves, so did nearly every president before the
Civil War - excluding the Adamses.




you guys are freakin unbelievable!!! 2
matlock writes 11:26 pm:
"Everyonesfacts, Before I sign off...you just proved my point about leftists. (deviate, bloviate, twist, distort, blow smoke, etc.) Did I ask you what book to read? No, you asked me. I don't want your suggestions."

matlock writes 5:35 pm:
"Ms. Aries needs to read a good history book. Maybe she and everyonesfacts could read one together."

Ummm, know you did not ask me you asserted that I needed to read
one. One which I believe I have looked through - not read cover to
cover - does anyone do that for history textbooks?
And since you asserted that is the book I should read I challenged
you to find anything in that book that disproves anything I have
written.

As far as the many social, political, economic and cultural differences
between N and S, they all have one common denominator - slavery
and the future of slavery

I have not stated once that people that believe the flag is a symbol
of southern pride do not believe it. I have stated that other people,
not necessarily the folks wearing or flying it see it as a symbol of hate. I also never asserted there was any hatred in the posts on
the board.

What Rebel Flag??
Hard to believe that Grownups are taking seriously a "Decoration" I used to see quite often in the rear windows of pickups along with a gun rack!!Don't see too many "Stars & Bars" anymore, but the gunracks seem to be multiplying exponentially..I guess Kids do grow up!! Now if we can hope for the same maturity to overtake some of the more obscene Rap Crap we may be even more ahead..CHEERS

you guys are freakin unbelievable!!! 3
wiseone [I've said it before one of the most innacurate handles I've seen] writes: "You said the flag means "hate"."
I did.
wiseone writes: "There are dozens of examples of varying forms of the Confederate flag being used to represent things other than bigotry and hate."

That's what I said, from my first post:
"the [rebel] flag has different meanings for different folks folks. (There
are several books that explore this in meaningful and enlightening
ways.)
Southern pride is one of them.
But hate surely is another."

First comment first sentence.
Wiseone please work on your reading comprehension skills. Please!

Then you claim I do not know anything about people who fly the flag
or why, etc. etc. Completely unfounded.

You claim I am a liberal but based it on misreadings of my posts.
I would allow and defend people's right to wear or fly the flag but do
not support it. This is liberal? Is my pro-life stance also liberal?
Or my complete support of the second amendment?
Or my support for a balanced budget?
Methinks, you are the one who knows little about people you write
about.

I am not sure how I jumped on UNCW's bandwagon since I did not
agree with what they did. Please clarify, this like much of your post(s)
does not make any sense. I think we agree that the flag has many
different meanings and the students should not be punished.

Stonerock1
If you're implying that I am arrogant I have to disagree.

I would have to say no one was more arrogant than Southern legislatures and slave owners who pretended to speak for people
they did not speak for - SC was a majority slave state - the people
I believe supported the union and I will try not to judge so I will be
not judged those that "wring their bread from the sweat of other men's faces."

Alexander Stephens's Cornerstone Speech:
"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other —though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists amongst us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution."

Abe Lincoln 2nd Inaugural:
"One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war."

Everyonesfacts
Again, you could have long ago have said, hey look guys, I'm sorry if I offended I was just sayin. But nooo you just hsve ton prove how smart you are. And to what end?

We really kinda like ya and were just picken a little cause you got so ruffled. My wife doesn't get it either. I apoligize for everyone who got outta line.

Gotta go read Thomas Sowell. Don't tell anyone. What with me being a racist and all.

Happy New Year

everyonesfacts
What were all those exclamation marks in your previous posts, typos?

Can't let it go, can you?

Okay dude you were right. Now get some rest.

HNY

Sesquicentennial in 2011
The Sesquicentennial Celebration of the beginning of the War Between the States will begin in 2011. Can someone tell me how it will celebrated without some respectful public display of THE Flag?

Swampfox on Sesqicent.
U can't as I see it..Public display of ANY flag can't be denied if "facts" means what he says..
I was not surprised to see in his 1:43 post "I teach this stuff" clarified to a degree where he's really coming from..I attempted to discuss some out of context graphs, etc , that to me seemed to conclude that Southern Folks who live in trailers are inherently less intelligent. His last post, when I bailed out, seemed to say that his initial purpose of the posting was to compare Unionvs Right-to-work areas?? BEATS ME

The Confederacy won?
Play some "what if" American History. The Confederacy wins in 1865. The nation is at first split in half. Then five years later the Western half that was conquered and taken from Mexico in 1846 forms a third nation. At the close of the 19th century there are three nations occupying the what was to be the 48 states. How might the 20th century might have been very different? And, how would the Confederacy have resolved its "peculiar institution" in the wake of the industrial revolution?

What if the South had won the Civil War?
Try MacKinley Kantor's book. I do not remember its exact title, but it is much like my subject. It's not quite as long as his book about Andersonville, but I found it interesting.

checking back in
exclamation marks in my posts?
I don't see any - though I am sure there are some.
There are a few in my subject lines showing exasperation.

Roy alludes to posts on this Tony Blankley article:

Wherein I never brought up the word trailer parks. Guess who did?
wait for it . . . Roy, did.
I did point out that collaborative bargaining states score better on
tests like NAEP and average educational attainment than right to work
states - not once generalizing or even thinking then or now that most people in the South live in trailer parks - which is not true so
why think it then or now? Please check the comments on that article
to see the progression of the thread that Roy had trouble following
for more. I'd be happy to respond there. I'll check back in later to
see if anyone has new information that contradicts anything I've asserted / posted.





Conservatives and the Old South
No doubt about it--as they have been for generations, conservatives remain fans of the Old South. They go on and on about its wonderful "heritage," but what comes through loud and clear is that they think the wrong side lost the Civili War, which means they also think that the cause of the South was a right and just cause. Most of the declarations of secession by the Confederate staes make clear that the preservation of slavery is one of the reasons they chose to leave the United States. I conclude from this that today's conservative defenders of the Confederacy also have no genuine problem with slavery, and with the racism required to justify slavery.

Now to the flag. The Confederate states, by virtue of their secession from and their war against the United States, were, pure and simple, enemies of the United States. The Confederate Battle Flag is one of the emblems of an enemy of the United States. Conservatives who love this flag and think it is harmless to display it are either (a) drunk on whatever replaced traditional corn likker in the South and don't know any better or (b) supporters of an enemy of this country. I think (b) is more likely.

To Gestell
The flag should not be banned just because some people use it incorrectly. It was not too long ago that it was even used on a popular TV show, The Dukes of Hazard. There was no outrage.

Most of my ancestors fought on the wrong side. One even signed the South Carolina document that took South Carolina out of the Union. He is on record as saying that it was the worst mistake of his life. My opinion is that the right side won the war. And, as R. E. Lee said at the end of the war, at last the horrid institution of slavery is finally over.

Additionally, the Confederate States wanted to go peacefully. It was Lincoln who was determined (correctly) to preserve the Union by invading the south. Another name for the war that has been used is "Lincoln's War".

Forgotten facts!
One of the most important and essential rights is freedom of speech, all speech. Hate, love, religious, atheist, garbage, ALL. We do not have to like what the other person is saying for them to have the right to say it. That is the beauty of America, land that I love. Once we give up just one of those basic rights we loose what has made us a great nation, a leader of the free world....we loose FREEDOM. Wake up! He who trades freedom for security gets neither!

reply to Swampfox
Nothing you said changes my opinion that the Confederate states were, and behaved as if they were, enemies of the United States. I think most of us (except for a few libertarians) are offended by the Nazi flag. If a fraternity chose to fly that flag, I think even conservatives would object. The Nazi flag was the flag of an enemy of this country, in addition to the flag of a regime that unleashed horror on millions of people. I suppose the next thing apologists for the South will tell me (actually, they already do) is that slavery really wasn't so bad, that it was, you know, kind of traditional, and heck, the slaves themselves were happy most of the time, etc.

If it makes any sense at all (and I know there are conservatives who do not think it does) to call anything a "crime against humanity," then surely slavery should be counted as one. Failure to see this isn't undone by recollections of great-great grandpa's second thoughts. What he really meant was that it was too bad the Confederacy didn't lose.

Slavery annd the Late Unpleasantness
History does not usually fall back on Original Sin as the cause of anything. Even those of us who believe in such a doctrine try to find a more proximal cause of whatever evil is under discussion. It is pretty apparent that slavery was not very commercially efficient, with no offense intended to the workers so exploited. However, the high protective tariff created economic disparity between the agrarian South and the industrial North, so that there was little cash in the South to pay laborers. It seems quite likely that an independent South,free of the protective tariff, would have shortly moved to a system of wage labor. Remember, the morality of slavery was hotly disputed in the South, almost as much as the North. Robert E. Lee, for example, freed the slaves he had inherited on his twenty first birthday, the earliest moment he could have legally done so. The northern banks holding notes secured by southern real estate and slaves were no more willing than southern banks to write off those notes. People in the South were also more aware of the moral hazards of slavery, right there beside them, than were people hundreds of miles away. Free white southern farmers resented the unfair competitive advantage of slaveholders, and, ironically, the Blacks whose bondage conferred that advantage.

Slavery and the Late Unpleasantness,con
I can imagine a good deal of outrage as planters shifted to wage labor, when the new cash economy made it possible, and the wage workers were paid so little. However, with so many unskilled workers available there would have been a great deal of competition for those poorly paying jobs. I can also envision that politicians, and the occasional statesman, would have seen the advantage of a Union, so that there would likely have been a new Constitution, probably banning slavery, and the high protective tariff. Perhaps, if we had a clearer understanding of the economic forces at work in the perpetuation of slavery, people would not so often seek cheap righteousness in opposing a sin to which they have never been tempted, nor really had much opportunity to commit.

To Gestell
The Nazis engaged in a systematic program to kill millions of humans and to engage in an aggressive war of conquest. The Confederacy did neither. The war they found themselves in was purely defensive. They believed that they had the constitutional right to leave the union, peacefully.

No one died when the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter in April of 1861. The carnage began at the first battle of Bull Run when the Union troops invaded Virginia.

I am not going to defend the Peculiar Institution of human slavery that existed at that time. The people at that time found themselves born into that society. Even with my defense of the flag I would not fly it ....... because of my respect for those who are offended by it. And, because it is now only part of history. The proper place for it is in museums and at historical reenactments of events.




What's next
I look forward to Mr. Adams' next installment in the saga of UNC-W!
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