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Monday, October 13, 2008
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Growing Out of Atheism
by Mike Adams
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Author’s Note: Dr. Adams will be speaking at Duquesne University on November 6th at 6:30 pm in 104 College Hall. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the present column. Please continue reading.

Hey, man! It was great to spend time with you in Houston last weekend. It was a real honor to be the keynote speaker at the annual fund-raiser for Texas Right to Life. They are a real class act and I thought they put together one spectacular event. It was really something else to be able to speak in front of my parents, my First Grade teacher, and my oldest friend in the universe (I mean oldest friendship as I don’t mean to imply you’re old which would mean I’m old, too).

I must tell you, though, that our conversation after the banquet was the highlight of the whole trip. During the conversation I was most struck by three of your statements; namely, that you were learning to let go of your anger, that you were reading the Book of Luke, and that you’re now taking a Bible study class at the church your dad attended before his unexpected death. In other words, you’re doing what I did just a few years ago: You’re growing up and out of atheism and embarking on an important intellectual journey.

You gave some indication Friday night that you have some remorse about how your past anger has hurt other people and interfered with your relationships. You seemed most concerned about how your unresolved religious issues may have caused you to lash out at others – mostly with the women you’ve dated and even in your relationship with your current girlfriend. I have a few insights that I hope will help you feel a little better about this and will help you focus on doing the NRT. By that, I mean forgetting about the past and simply doing the Next Right Thing.

Any outbursts of anger you may have displayed during your prolonged battle with God probably pale in comparison with the ones I displayed during my days as a hardened and outspoken atheist. It didn’t help that during that time I badly abused alcohol and used drugs that were intended to fill a gap in my life caused by my rejection of God.

Regardless, I am still having to apologize to people I hurt during that period of my life. But I don’t dwell on it because I understand the origins of that anger. It’s all about separation from God. And once we have the courage to step away from atheism - or the intellectually weaker position of agnosticism - the anger just disappears. (Note that the agnostic is literally confessing, as I did for nine years, to be an “ignoramus” regarding the existence of God).

I think anger is one of the reasons people get trapped in atheism or agnosticism. The anger becomes so intense that they lose the ability to discuss religion with more intellectually centered believers. They often become so embittered that they won’t even read anything that challenges their views on theological matters.

I am now encountering that problem with an atheist professor at UNC-Wilmington. He has a pile of books on his desk by Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, and other atheists who think like he thinks. He won’t attend lectures or read books I recommend that provide a different perspective. I have to approach the topic carefully in order to avoid stirring his fiery temper. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the most outspoken atheist I know has less control over his emotions than anyone I know.

But I think most former atheists and former agnostics also find that there is another emotion, which sort of disappears once a solid, intellectually based belief in God takes hold in their lives. That emotion is fear.

The man who used to be my most outspoken atheist colleague (he is now retired) provides a good example of what I’m talking about. His decision to adopt atheism had nothing to do with honest intellectual reflection. He simply had a horrible relationship with his father and he took it out on God. The consequence of this was a level of emotional insecurity that made him simply impossibly to deal with. He was constantly plagued by indecisiveness and anxiety.

Whenever I would get frustrated with him I would remember my days as an atheist and a bit of sympathy would set in. My life without God was an anxiety driven life. My life with God is a purpose driven life. It isn’t just a cliché.

You noted previously that you had been plagued by fear and anxiety throughout your life – as long as you could remember you once told me. But, now that you have made a decision to step towards God, some great things are happening to you. You are talking about buying your first house. You are talking about marrying your girlfriend. For the first time, you are speaking with a real degree of confidence about your plans for the future.

Yesterday, I sent you a short video of an interview with Dr. Gary Habermas called “The Death and Resurrection of Debbie.” The video really reminds me a lot of your dear mother’s passing in 2005. I know that was the beginning of a very dark few years for you. If you weren’t angry after watching her slow painful death from lung cancer then I don’t think you would qualify as human. Anyone would feel both profound anger and sadness.

But isn’t it amazing to look at the chain of events set off by her death? It was amazing that your father and his second wife were there with her so close to the end of her life – although your mom and dad had been divorced for sixteen years. And who would have known that seeing her pain would send your dad on a spiritual journey that would result in his conversion to Christianity in just six months.

Your dad’s unexpected death six months later was simply devastating to you. But many of us knew that God had a great purpose in mind. Like the Apostle Paul and Jesus, your father’s greatest accomplishments would come in those last few months of his life as an evangelist for God. When I wrote about his conversion experience just a few months after his death, people from Tennessee all the way to Australia would eventually write back to me saying that his story led to their own conversions.

Probably the best part of it all is that Frank Turek - the co-author of the book that your dad said influenced him most in his conversion – and I have now become friends. And, of course, it was your father’s death that brought us together.

Now, we’ve been working together to bring more of his “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” seminars to college campuses. I’m convinced that people convert to Christianity after every one of those seminars. I sure it’ll be no different after the next one at UNC-Wilmington on November 10th.

When you mother died such a painful death in 2005 you were probably most angered by the fact that she died in so much pain and so much agony. You wondered why it was really necessary for things to end that way. You wondered how such a thing could ever have a purpose.

Now that your anger is beginning to fade you are about to see that Christianity – and only Christianity - can explain how the suffering of one can bring about the salvation of many. Soon you will become an evangelist, not lukewarm but on fire like your father’s heroes in the Book of Acts. And every day of your life will be spent bringing honor and purpose to your parents who will forever live through your bold and courageous witness.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Ken
You're a great apologist, Ken. Loved your replies to Heinz. I was hoping to see more of this.

heinz - part 2
Me: "I quoted Pinker's own words."

You: "No, you didn't."

The words I quoted come directly from an article written by Pinker. I did not change his words one iota.

"He said infanticide was immoral"

Many people think abortion is immoral, but still want to keep it legal. Is that Pinker's attitude toward infanticide?

heinz
"we are no longer under a Christian theocracy that allowed for murder on religious grounds alone."

When was America ever a "Christian theocracy"? During the colonial period we were still under British rule. It would be a stretch to say that England was a "theocracy", since the king was the head of the church.

"I am not comfortable with abortion myself,"

So do you think it should be abolished? If not, why not?

"but it is sanctioned by the Bible."

Chapter and verse?

"Christians often take a moral high ground here,"

Glad you acknowledge that much.

"but at the same time they are pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty"

How can you compare killing the innocent with self-defense? How can you compare killing a dangerous murderer with killing an innocent child?

"and anti-vaccinations"

Wrong. Most Christians are NOT anti-vaccination. That's just another one of your straw men.

"and anti-stem cell research."

Wrong again. Most Christians support ADULT stem cell research. We do question the morality of manufacturing babies simply to get their stem cells. Besides, adult stem cell research has proven far more successful than embryonic stem cell research.

"A worldview that is pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty and anti-vaccinations and anti-stem cell research is hamrful."

I've already answered those lies and half-truths.

"I don't want to abolish religion,"

After all your other lies, I find that statement difficult to believe.

"I just want you to keep your myths to yourself."

So you just want to abolish my right to free speech, huh? Gee, that's awfully "tolerant" of you (I'm being sarcastic). It only proves my point that atheists care about no one's rights other than their own.

for Ken
>>"I want to minimize harm - and that is merely it for me."
Ken: But what if others don't share your moral standard? Are you going to impose your standards on them? Isn't that what you accuse Christians of doing?

Reply: Thankfully most people do share my moral standards, and thankfully we are no longer under a Christian theocracy that allowed for murder on religious grounds alone.

Ken: Besides, who defines what is "harmful"? I think killing a child before it is born is pretty harmful, but pro-abortionists don't seem to think so. I think premarital sex is pretty harmful, but a lot of people in America don't agree.

Reply: I am not comfortable with abortion myself, but it is sanctioned by the Bible. Christians often take a moral high ground here, but at the same time they are pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty and anti-vaccinations and anti-stem cell research. Christians aren't pro-life, they are pro-birth. You need more babies because you have devised so many ways to kill them later. As far as premarital sex goes, Christians seem to have higher divorce rates - maybe you should try it.

Ken: You secularists think religion is harmful, and you would abolish religious freedom in this country if you could. You want to "minimize harm", all right, as long as you're the one who defines what is harmful.

Reply: A worldview that is pro-gun, pro-war, pro-death penalty and anti-vaccinations and anti-stem cell research is hamrful. I don't want to abolish religion, I just want you to keep your myths to yourself.

for Ken
"We no longer burn women at the stake, we no longer lynch blacks, beating our women is no longer socially acceptable, in fact we now look to them to lead."

Ken: Are you saying these things don't happen anywhere in the world today?

Reply: I am not saying that, but in previous eras it happened EVERYWHERE.

Ken: They would happen in America if people could get away with it.

Reply: And it did, way back when we were a Christian theocracy. The most important book in the Christian world besides the Bible was the Malleus Mallificarum (Hammer of Witches). Of course, one need only to have a copy of Deuteronomy or Leviticus as permission. No one thankfully can do this today in the Western world and get away with it.

Ken: We still commit infanticide in this country, except we do it before the baby is born. Some people, like Stephen Pinker, want to loosen restricitons on killing children after they're born.

Reply: Pinker didn't say that, and you know it. He said infanticide was immoral, but you don't like that part.
I can't understand why Christians oppose abortion. The Bible is pro-abortion, and it is also pro-infanticide. The bible actually allows the killing of enemy babies in horrific ways.

for Ken
>>I quoted Pinker's own words.

Reply: No, you didn't. Read it again, or are you only seeing what you want to see. I believe that is the case with most believers.

metatron3
"We no longer burn women at the stake, we no longer lynch blacks, beating our women is no longer socially acceptable, in fact we now look to them to lead."

Are you saying these things don't happen anywhere in the world today? They would happen in America if people could get away with it.

"Ken, if you are not convinced that modern life is immeasurably than any in history, then you are intellectually impaired."

I assume you mean "immeasurably better." Granted, we're more technologically advanced, but I'm not so sure we're more advanced morally. We still commit infanticide in this country, except we do it before the baby is born. Some people, like Stephen Pinker, want to loosen restricitons on killing children after they're born.

"I want to minimize harm - and that is merely it for me."

But what if others don't share your moral standard? Are you going to impose your standards on them? Isn't that what you accuse Christians of doing?

Besides, who defines what is "harmful"? I think killing a child before it is born is pretty harmful, but pro-abortionists don't seem to think so. I think premarital sex is pretty harmful, but a lot of people in America don't agree. You secularists think religion is harmful, and you would abolish religious freedom in this country if you could. You want to "minimize harm", all right, as long as you're the one who defines what is harmful.

Heinz
"Yes, you showed me where Pinker stated what others felt about it, not him."

I quoted Pinker's own words.

to Ken
Heinz: "It is a horrible text - but it is something I expect from the violent and primitive culture."

Ken: Again, are you saying our culture has progressed beyond that point? I'd like to see your proof.

Reply: Only someone steeped in ignorance of history would ask for such proof. Primitive cultures evidently thought smashing babies against rocks was just punishment for the parents misdeeds. Primitve cultures were wildly misogynistic, and they didn't have people laboring to find cures for diseases like we do. We know enjoy unprecedented good health, a population boom, the longest life expectancy than at any time in history, and the lowest infant mortality ever. We no longer burn women at the stake, we no longer lynch blacks, beating our women is no longer socially acceptable, in fact we now look to them to lead. Ken, if you are not convinced that modern life is immeasurably than any in history, then you are intellectually impaired.

Heinz: "It is immoral to defend such a text as well."

Ken: Based on what standard of morality?

Reply: Ken, I don't need codes written by ancient savages as a standard for me. I want to minimize harm - and that is merely it for me. If your god suddenly appeared to me and asked me to smash your baby's head against a rock I would refuse because my conscience would not allow me to carry out such a hideous act, and it would not allow me to worship or follow such an evil despot. My heart would not allow me to defend such a horrific act as you have done. I guess I am more moral than you are, I am certainly more moral than your god.

for Ken
>>Here's what Stephen Pinker says about infanticide:

Reply: Yes, you showed me where Pinker stated what others felt about it, not him.

Heinz
Here's what Stephen Pinker says about infanticide:

"But it's hard to maintain that neonaticide is an illness when we learn that it has been practiced and accepted in most cultures throughout history."

"Even when a mother in a hunter-gatherer society hardens her heart to sacrifice a newborn, her heart has not turned to stone."

"Many cultural practices are designed to distance people's emotions from a newborn until its survival seems probable. Full personhood is often not automatically granted at birth, as we see in our rituals of christening and the Jewish bris."

"No, the right to life must come, the moral philosophers say, from morally significant traits that we humans happen to possess. One such trait is having a unique sequence of experiences that defines us as individuals and connects us to other people. Other traits include an ability to reflect upon ourselves as a continuous locus of consciousness, to form and savor plans for the future, to dread death and to express the choice not to die. And there's the rub: our immature neonates don't possess these traits any more than mice do."

"Several moral philosophers have concluded that neonates are not persons, and thus neonaticide should not be classified as murder."

heinz
"It is a horrible text - but it is something I expect from the violent and primitive culture."

Again, are you saying our culture has progressed beyond that point? I'd like to see your proof.

"It is immoral to defend such a text as well."

Based on what standard of morality?

for Ken
Heinz: "Yes it does, and i quoted just one Scripture to prove it. I could add more."

Ken: No, it doesn't. As always, you took that verse out of context.

Reply: So you admit there is a context that makes it possible for someone to be happy to smash babies against rocks??? Remember Ken, this is only one verse, there are more like this.

Ken: The passage was a prayer for God's vengeance on Israel's enemies. It may sound pretty harsh, but it was no less harsh than what the Babylonians did to Israel.

Reply: It is a horrible text - but it is something I expect from the violent and primitive culture. It is immoral to defend such a text as well.

Heinz: "Yes, the same Pinker that said it was immoral."

Ken: Not in the article I read. He defended it under certain circumstances.

Reply: Well I gave you a quote...perhaps you could do the same for me. Show me exactly where Pinker says it is okay to kill babies.

Ken: I haven't missed anything you've said. You said the world has become less violent since biblical days, but you have practically conceded that it hasn't. Do you not pay attention to your own arguments?

Reply: Humor me by showing me where I conceded any such thing.

heinz
"Yes it does, and i quoted just one Scripture to prove it. I could add more."

No, it doesn't. As always, you took that verse out of context. The passage was a prayer for God's vengeance on Israel's enemies. It may sound pretty harsh, but it was no less harsh than what the Babylonians did to Israel.

"Yes, the same Pinker that said it was immoral."

Not in the article I read. He defended it under certain circumstances.

"You're not very good at this, are you? You either ignorantly or purposely miss every point made."

I haven't missed anything you've said. You said the world has become less violent since biblical days, but you have practically conceded that it hasn't. Do you not pay attention to your own arguments?

for Ken
Heinz: "Doesn't the Bible promote infanticide?"

Ken No...

Reply: Yes it does, and i quoted just one Scripture to prove it. I could add more.

Ken: but your hero Stephen Pinker has spoken in defense of it.

Reply: Yes, the same Pinker that said it was immoral.

Ken: Are you saying the world hasn't become less violent since biblical days? Isn't that the precise point I was making? Thanks for conceding it.

Reply: You're not very good at this, are you? You either ignorantly or purposely miss every point made.

heinz
"Doesn't the Bible promote infanticide?"

No, but your hero Stephen Pinker has spoken in defense of it.

Are you saying the world hasn't become less violent since biblical days? Isn't that the precise point I was making? Thanks for conceding it.

Ken on Infanticide
>> Isn't he the one who has spoken in defense of infanticide?

Reply: Doesn't the Bible promote infanticide?

"Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!" Ps. 137:9

Ken's Deceptions
Subject: heinz
"It is a far less violent world now than the ancient one we emerged from."

Ken: That's debatable.

Reply: Not at all, unless you are ignorant of the past.

"The ancient world was one of constant war and violent strife."

Ken: You mean like today?

Reply: Not even comparable, in fact, we have been seeing a decline of war in the past 2 decades.

Also: "the history of mankind since about 2500 B.C. is little more than a non-stop record of murder, bloodshed and violence...human history has been fundamentally a history of crime."
-Colin Wilson

Professor John Bellamy at the Carleton University in Ottawa, Canada, even says:

"In most modern western countries the level of crime has been so reduced that the misdeeds of the few serve rather to provide the ordinary citizen with escapist entertainment than to instill a sense of fear.

Heinz: "It is one of the major factors why the average life expectancy worldwide back then was only 25."

Ken: There were many other factors, such as disease and famine.

Reply: And endless violence on such a level that we have never experienced.

Heinz: "Steven Pinker offers some insights on the recent decline of violence at"

Ken: Steven Pinker? The Harvard guy? Isn't he the one who has spoken in defense of infanticide?

Reply: Hardly, this coming from the same article by him that states: "Killing a baby is an immoral act, and we often express our outrage at the immoral by calling it a sickness."

heinz
"It is a far less violent world now than the ancient one we emerged from."

That's debatable.

"The ancient world was one of constant war and violent strife."

You mean like today?

"It is one of the major factors why the average life expectancy worldwide back then was only 25."

There were many other factors, such as disease and famine.

"Steven Pinker offers some insights on the recent decline of violence at"

Steven Pinker? The Harvard guy? Isn't he the one who has spoken in defense of infanticide?

Devils for Ken
"Devils are the invention of ancient savages and reflects their ignorant and violent world. This is the 21st century - WAKE UP!"

Ken: Are you saying the 21st century is not violent? Maybe you're the one who needs to wake up.

Reply: It is a far less violent world now than the ancient one we emerged from. The ancient world was one of constant war and violent strife. It is one of the major factors why the average life expectancy worldwide back then was only 25. Steven Pinker offers some insights on the recent decline of violence at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gettingbetter/message/1096

Ken, arguing with a scoffer is futile.
It just earns you strife. Read the Scriptural references that I posted. You have to kknow which folls you can answer in their folly.

Peace, brother.

Heinz
"Devils are the invention of ancient savages and reflects their ignorant and violent world. This is the 21st century - WAKE UP!"

Are you saying the 21st century is not violent? Maybe you're the one who needs to wake up.

Very good, Heinz - you fit the profile
of the Hebrew _luwts_ exactly. My advice to others is justified.


Re: scoffer
>> Subject: Heinz is a scoffer
Ps. 1:1, Prov. 22:10, 21:24, 30:17, Matt. 12:31, Acts 13:41.

Reply: Ooooh - Bible verses, Scary!

Heinz is a scoffer
Ps. 1:1, Prov. 22:10, 21:24, 30:17, Matt. 12:31, Acts 13:41.

Act accordingly.

anderson659 and the Bible
>>There is more to unfold, and as we have gone into the 21 century with all of our new technology and abilities no one has been able to refute creationism, the bible, or even disprove it.

Reply: Creationism and the Bible has been refuted and disproved ad nauseum! This is the problem with Christians - they have kept themselves so cocooned away from criticism that they utterly no idea what is going on in the real world. This is surely a cult.

WTF
Why am I unable to access this?????

a
a

Gov. Palin in PA draws huge crowds.
If her ticket wins, it will be because of her. If not, she will be a force to reckon with along with Jindal.

BTW, after each election in PA, they circle most of the polling places in Philadelphia with yellow "Crime Scene" tape.

Fabius
You have to wonder about atheists. All around them is irrefuteable evidence of creation. Yet they insist that somwhow this world simply came into being, and/or evolved.

I dont need to offer these people an explanation of creation, or even defend it.Placing a believer in the position of defending the obvious is silly.

All of the intellectual dogma splattered all over the posts here fail.

I believe that not all has been revealed to us yet. There is more to unfold, and as we have gone into the 21 century with all of our new technology and abilities no one has been able to refute creationism, the bible, or even disprove it. The historical parts of the bible in fact, have been proven. All you have to do is watch the Discovery channel for the results.

Arguing with people who define their beliefs by personal behaviors offers an insight into what they and others like them have planned for those that do not agree with them.

I do not presume to be so arrogant as to believe I understand God, faith and the plan for mankind. The educated here who claim a higher level of understanding in reality understand less than the any believer here.

The presumptive arrogance of these intellectuals sets them apart, over time it is people such as these that have ignited and defined the greatest tragedies of mankind.

Fabius
How was Palin received in PA? Has her selection made a difference?

The rosary
is the best weapon we have against the enemy. It's not just for Catholics anymore!!!!

RichD
Thank you. Your explanation is what I had feared. It seems that PA. Ohio, Missouri and Nevada have massive amount of voter fraud. All are battleground states.

There are times when you wonder how such an out of control minority such as ACORN has been allowed to influence a presidential election with fraud. Can you imagine what the media would be writing if ACORN was a GOP affiliated group?

Anderson659
The Republican areas overlay the state like a "T", as Fabius described. Dems always win Allegheny County containing Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia, where enough fraud goes on to usually clobber the Republican vote.

The polls are essentially meaningless because of the heavy fraud. You can add maybe 5-10 points to the Dems from the fraud. See this article.

http://townhall.com/Columnists/PeterJWirs/2008/03/27/voter_ fraud_has_begun_and_no_ones_noticed_yet

Philadelphia's voter rolls, have jumped 24 percent since 1995 at the same time that the city's population has declined by 13 percent.

Republicans have to win big just to eke out a victory in Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. ACORN promises to make it worse everywhere.

RichD,Fabius
Both of you are from PA, how about a take on the polls zccuracy? Are they on the money, or???

Thx!

truetolife
Your humor is unalloyd!

lloyd
"The theist has posited a God; it is up to him to prove his proposition. I want empirical evidence. Inductive evidence won't do."

What kind of evidence will you accept? Will you accept the same kinds as presented to a court of law?

JeFtFotF
"(Rich, people should be scared when they consider rejecting the Savior who died for them and rose again.)"

Indeed. I wasn't clear - I meant that quoting somebody like Lewis immediately scares away those who dismiss Christian apologists out of hand and who otherwise might listen.

re: My Happy Atheism/summers
Summers: Suicide rates are no higher among homosexuals than heterosexuals. That charge will not stick.

Reply: and yet it is Christians that are constantly promoting this idea of higher suicide rates amongst gays as a blight against it. Interesting!

re: My Happy Atheism/Ken
Heinz: "That's one of the problems with Christianity, it is so fractured and denominational,"

Ken: Then why do you paint it with such a broad brush?

Reply: Huh!?

Heinz: "yet I could find something in most all that is disturbing, such as a hideous belief in devils and demons"

Ken: Why is that so hideous?

Reply: Devils are the invention of ancient savages and reflects their ignorant and violent world. This is the 21st century - WAKE UP!

Ken: I find it no more hideous than the atheists' belief in "survival of the fittest", which is just a fancy way of saying "might makes right."

Reply: Which is not an accurate depiction of evolution, but then, Christians are generally ignorant of what evolution actually details.

Heinz: "and the intolerance of gays that has led many to suicide."

Ken: For someone who claims to believe in "tolerance", you're awfully intolerant of Christians.

Reply: Yes, I am intolerant of bigots, I will admit that gladly and proudly.

Curmudgeon
There is one God, and He performs all sorts of miracles. There are “everyday” miracles, such as babies being conceived and born, and there are “special” miracles, such as the creation of the universe, genuine healings, and so forth. The “spate” of miracles that occurred 2000 years ago were provided in large part to confirm the words and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and His followers, who were announcing the new covenant (Mark 2:5-12; Acts 2:22-24; Hebrews 2:4).

Here is evidence that God loves us: while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8); we could not save ourselves from the penalty of sin (Mark 2:7), which is death (Romans 6:23), and He did not have to do anything, yet He chose to give His life as a ransom for all of us (Matthew 20:28).

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). God does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

What will you do with Jesus?

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

lloyd?????
I do not believe that lloyd exists. That makes me an "alloyd." The alloyd need offer no proof for her position as she has made no proposition.

dont be so angry, theists
atheism is merely the next step in the logical progression. polytheism was the faith of the ancients, and they didnt take kindly to the upstart monotheists that came out of mesopotamia and eventually settled in canaan. the monotheists were not favorably impressed with the improved version, tritheism, and the polytheists tried to kill them off as well, they survived, but were not good friends with the improved monotheists of the 7th century, which proceeded to conquer half the tritheistic world, and which havent given up on the struggle to force their beliefs on the entire world. the trend continues with the theist antagonism toward the latest version, the atheists. the tritheists, with their religion of love, hate the atheists, and the improved monotheists want to kill them. where is the proof of gods love? is it reserved for those who subscribe to the correct formulations, or is it open to everyone? theists, try practicing what you preach (with the exception of the improved monotheists who worship a god of murder, i prefer them to be hypocrites). i will be waiting for a few measly miracles, and maybe i will join in with whoever produces them. doesnt seem likely to me that a genuine supreme being would perform a spate of miracles over a period of a thousand years, ending 2000 years ago, and then show no more interest in the matter. one thing to think about....why all the godly interest in whether or not us mere humans believe in him? does he derive his existence from our belief? if not, give me one valid reason for a supreme being to care one way or another if or if not us mere humans believe. i dont doubt that jesus christ was a remarkable man, and his successor, mohammed must have been impressive as well, even if thoroughly evil. certainly the slap the other cheek version of morality is winning out over the turn the other cheek version, although i have never known a tritheist that practiced that directive.

DavidMac - you were non-responsive -
not one question answered. Good job.

atheismI
I do not believe a diety exists. That makes me an atheist. The atheist need offer no proof for his position for he has made no proposition. The theist has posited a God; it is up to him to prove his proposition. I want empirical evidence. Inductive evidence won't do.

As far as the origin of he first energy/matter, I haven't a clue. If you tell me it was created by God, I want to know who created the creator.

You must
accept the concept of God in order to be an (a)theist. The only thing standing between an atheist and a theist is pride.

Non-believers
That desire to believe that there is no God have no evidence for their choice.

How does a person come to belief.
He must have a desire to know what has really happened.
He must see himself realistically, imperfect and selfish.
He must ask to know the Truth. God if you are real let me know for sure.
He must search the Scriptures. If your heart is sincere God will not refuse you.
Faith involves the mind and being convinced but it is also a gift that must be given to you by the Father.
Jesus is waiting for your answer to His question. Who do you say that I am? It all comes down to that simple question. Who is Jesus?

Re Mere Christianity
That was published in 1952, not 1943. I'm sorry if my error confused anyone.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Steve
You wrote (10:53 am), “Maybe what you need is just some conseling [sic], maybe you had a horrible childhood, personally I can't figure out why people have this need to believe in a god.”

Try reading the Gospel of John. You may see why people have a need. Some cannot see it. Some will not see it. Millions, if not billions, have seen it, and are thankful.

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

God only acknowledges 2 groups.
The heavens proclaim the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Psalm 19:1

For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood by what has been made so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Paul inspired by God tells us unbelievers are without an excuse for their unbelief. He has given them enough evidence of His existence in creation.

Remember even as unbelievers watched Jesus bring Lazarus back to life, after he had been dead for three days, their reaction was to conspire to kill Jesus and Lazarus. John 12:10

Unbelievers choose not to believe. Believers search for the Truth as if it were a treasure and ask for redemption once they have found it. God never refuses to come into a heart to live with anyone who humbly and sincerely asks.

There are believers and unbelievers. Those are the only 2 groups that God acknowledges.

Jim
Your claims (9:29 am) fly in the face of statements made by the One who is there and is not silent (see, e.g., John 14:6). Have you considered this response to a similar position:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
-- C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, 1943 [chapter 3]

(Rich, people should be scared when they consider rejecting the Savior who died for them and rose again.)

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Lonestarblues
Good to read from you again. But I must contest your point (7:28 am) that “…you cannot know God.” Yes, you can.

And many atheists do choose to refuse where the evidence leads. A position of refusal is not merely not knowing, to which Dr. Adams apparently was referring when he compared atheism to agnosticism; it is rejecting one or another claim by or about God concerning the truth of His existence.

“How can you accept or reject what you cannot know?” What do you mean and how do you know that you cannot know “what you cannot know”? Who said you cannot know God? And why would you accept that position?

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

Stereotypes, indeed
MellorSJ2, your use of “xian stereotypes: deluded *and* stupid” (3:43 am) holds value only with those who value them, as they are the coin of the anti-xian realm (which also means they are temporary).

A number of your other statements display stereotypical and/or faulty premises as well:
-- “…that xians can’t force their belief on others” (a straw argument and a bad one at that; those who use force don’t care about what victims believe – which beliefs are supposedly “forced”?)
-- “believers in (e.g.) sky pixies” (Biblical faith is an evidentiary faith in an infinite God who intervened in human history, a position you may reject but I have not seen a meaningful rebuttal)
-- “The atheist instead states that there is no evidence to support gods…” (this is either an argument from ignorance, as there is an abundance of evidence, or from the will, which chooses not to accept where the evidence points)
-- “Does that mean that I know absolutely that there are no gods or pink unicorns? Of course not!” So why are you so dismissive of those who do know absolutely that there is an absolute God?
-- “Whatever” (overused vague summary or dismissal that says nothing, and certainly does nothing to address the issue at hand)
-- “We claim you are attempting to write your beliefs into law so they may be imposed on the rest of us: same-sex marriage, abortion, etc etc” (concerning abortion, who is imposing whose beliefs on whom? who is attempting to redefine marriage?)

For the Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11) of the Founders ><>

W.C. Fields
The comic actor W. C. Fields was a life-long atheist. When he was old and dying in the hospital, he was visited by an old friend - who caught Fields reading the Bible. The friend asked, "Bill, what are you doing?" and Fields answered, "Looking for loopholes!"


http://www.colony14.net

An Atheist's Lament
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools,
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


William Shakespeare: Macbeth
Act 5, Scene 2

my 2 cents
I truly pity those who don't believe in God and I pray for them. Without a belief in Him thius world makes no sense at all, witness Bill Maher.

those of us who are old enough
to know realize that the world is not getting better by cutting God out of it. It's getting much worse. Moral relativism has created a new god (me). So many people with so many ego problems. We need to get over ourselves. No one is all that. The more we serve God by serving others--the more we learn of God. I thank God for the strong faith which my parents shared with their 7 kids. I feel sorry for so many children growing up with nothing to believe in but their delusions of grandeur.

Rich D.
Read, please. There is a political movement that may or may not consist of people who do not believe a diety exists. They are targeting CHRISTIANS. They do so for POLITICAL beliefs and motives, not religious beliefs. If you haven't noticed that, you really aren't paying attention.

Again, logically, I do not say, "I do not believe in god." I say, "I do not believe a diety exists." If you do not understand the distinction, you really aren't paying attention.

Read the posts from religious believers, if you claim that there isn't hatred toward atheists. Ask yourself: why would an atheist hate someone who believes in a non-existant deity? Then ask yourself: wouldn't a person with deeply held beliefs hate someone who didn't believe as they do?

I am a libertarian-conservative politically. I'm sure you have a problem with that, too. I'm also a life member of the NRA and a 3-tour Vietnam vet.

I'm sure you'd dismiss me out of hand simply because I am not in lock-step with your religious beliefs.

With conservatives like you, who needs libs?

Your lack of tolerance is exactly what fuels the socialist useful idiots' hatred of conservatives.


Adams' Arrogance
Like many new zealots, Mikee A spouts forth the cliche that non-believers are always angry men, that they need to "grow up" and grow out of their unbelief.

I daresay some of that "anger" would even be justified. Religious people have often been bigoted, nasty, pesky. Just look at Adam's own immature and selfish behavior at times. If he only knew the bad example he sets.

It's not to say there aren't many good religious people of many Faiths. But it's equally valid that those of us who are Agnostic, or just plain non-religious, have decency and morality.

I was glad when President Bush some years ago, praised rescue workers during Katrina, noting some were faith-based, others equally good, were of NO FAITH.

Some religious people have done great damage by their fervor, from the Inquisition to the 9/11/01 turbaned terrorists' atrocities. They all prayed fervently before their mission.

The smug cruelty of Rev. Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist, from beating his family to shouting Thank Jesus for Dead Soldiers, is sickening. If MikeeA wants an example of immaturity, he's most likely to find it among some of his fellow religionists.

God does not believe in atheists
therefore--they don't exist.

Retired Geek
me "...We do not and likely can never know what happened in the planck moment before Big Bang..."

you "The moment before or any amount of time before is not the question."

Oh, but it certainly is. If we cannot see past big bang, then it is unknown, and you can't logically argue unknowns.

you "Are 'Space and Motion' also eternal like you say energy is?"

Why do you need to distort what I said? Why not argue with what I actually said?

Here is what I said: "The Law of Conservation of Energy says energy cannot be created or destroyed. I would simply say that what is, is. I leave assumptions to you."

Nothing about space or motion or "eternal". Simply by known law energy cannot be created or destroy. What is, is.

Will you now break Occam's Razor and add assumptions? Will those assumptions have explanatory power?

There is a simple counter argument a cosmologist would raise to what I said. If you don't know it, I'll be glad to explain.

Josh (will)
The only poll that matters is that which shows the margin of victory on November 4th.

Josh - just as I suspected, silly
in addition to being inconsiderate.

Rich D
I've just consulted with the editors of Townhall. We've cleared away lots of "space" for you here on this thread.

Go ahead. Coast clear. Post away.

If you need extra "space" just let me know.

Summers
Ouch! I'm sorry to hear that. I hope that this site doesn't stress you too much. I will pray for you.

Josh
Stop posting polls - it just takes up space and adds nothing to the discussion. Even if they mean something, we'd still like to reserve this space for discussion on the topic. Do you talk during the opera, too?

pablo st. cruz, in re: 114
Having accepted Christ into your heart you should read the Bible for yourself with your heart and mind open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

That done, you will be directed not merely to the denomination that best fits your particular combination of need to be met and gifts you can give others but to the specific, local church AND your specific calling within that church.

God's placement process may be swift or it may take all your life. He may reveal your mission to you or he may require you to work blind, obeying your orders and trusting him to see where it fits in the big picture. The latter is quite common because of the human weakness for having "good ideas" and trying to accomplish things our way rather than His way.

Demosthenes,
"Speaking as a Deist, concepts like evolution and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive."

As a teen fascinated by the life sciences, geology, and paleontology I came up against that dilemma. Discussion with my Presbyterian minister, who had been a chemist with a similar interest in geology until God dragged him kicking and screaming into the ministry, led to the idea that there is nothing in the Bible to say that evolution was not one of God's most wonderous, amazing, and divinity-affirming creations.

The Bible is history, literature, allegory, prophecy, instruction manual, poetry, and legal document all at once -- often on multiple layers of meaning in the same scripture. It is known and acknowledged that a year in prophecy did not always mean 365 days ticked on on the calendar. Who is to know what a day meant to God before the earth was set to rotate about the sun?

Moreover, while its a principle of science that processes in the past ran at the same rate as processes today, who can say that God did NOT create everything in 7, ordinary, calendar days and only then set the pace for things to run -- just as a filmmaker might use stop motion or high-speed to create a movie sequence that would then run at normal speed for the audience?

If the question still matters to me when I get to heaven I'll be able to ask. Until then I am content that God created the process of evolution and that if the process of molding Adam from the dust of the earth included a few ape-like hominids like an artist's rough sketches he had the right to do it that way. :)

DavidMac
'Atheists do not have to justify a lack of faith.' No, they don't. They have the firm faith/conviction/belief that there is no God, capital or lower case 'g'. That belief is no less than a religion unto itself.

I gave a quote from The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton earlier. The book is over sixty years old and is still a popular book. Merton was an atheist. I will not weigh the thread down with a hundred quotes; but, I will strongly urge you to check it out of the library or buy it in paperback. I think you will appreciate the discussion. I have never been an atheist, so I have great difficulty trying to imagine belief from your point of view.

My son was a strong Christian. When he died at age seventeen, my great consolation was knowing where he went. When I was told that I had NYS Stage IV cardiomyopathy, I was not, nor have I been, the least bit troubled or distressed. I am not fighting to save my life or have someone save it. I know that my Redeemer lives and I have faith (trust) in His word. I have such deep peace and contentment that I wish all could experience it.

Why Faith?
Why is faith necessary? Why doesn't God do as the atheists demand and PROVE his existence with unequivocal evidence?

1. God gave man free will to believe or not to believe -- the right to be wrong -- because he wants us to choose to be adopted as his children rather than forced to be his servants. God HAS servants already. Both the angels who accept his will and the demons who rebel against it need not "believe" in God for they KNOW him face-to-face.

2. God deliberately does not provide any evidence, in the scientific sense, for his existence because if there were such evidence it would destroy our free will -- removing our choice to believe or not believe and rendering us slaves before God's irresistible power.

3. Thus the need for faith to deliberately make the irrational, even counter-rational, decision to believe based not on evidence but on the willingness to suspend the need for evidence. This being the wisdom that is foolishness in the eyes of the world as the scriptures told us.

Its not a logical explanation of why one should believe in God but a logical explanation of the need to suspend logic in making the choice of faith. :)

Curtal Friar,
I've been a Christian since childhood. One time, at Vacation Bible School when I was about 6, I suddenly understood the lessons I'd been given for years. I suddenly understood that Jesus was God and that, just like my Daddy, he LOVED me and I needed to love him back.

And Thank God I listened so early because there is no EARTHLY reason for me to not have become a drug-addled wreck or to have killed myself during the lonely wasteland that was my teen years. I was that kid everyone picked on. That kid who had no friends. The one who was continually humiliated with the full spectrum of emotional (and occasional physical -- though I was too big for them to really hurt), abuse that teens can inflict on one another.

Yet with Christ in my heart I rejected, not self-righteously but automatically and without thinking, drugs and alcohol. And self-extermination never once crossed my mind.

Three times in my life I should have died. First before I was even born when my mother was so ill with toxemia. Second during those teen years. And third, during my third pregnancy when I developed the worst blood clot the hospital had ever seen -- stretching from ankle to hip beyond where the ultrasound could see.

I've looked death in the eye and though I was afraid God comforted me like a father holding a child's hand through the terror of the storm.

Gestell
"..."evidence" from the non-believer that there is no God."

What evidence do they present?

DavidMac
"True atheists don't hate religious believers;"

The atheists who have posted here on TH have been pretty hateful. Are you saying they're not "true atheists"?

"religious believers really hate atheists."

Wrong. I'm a religious believer, and I don't hate atheists. If I hated them, I wouldn't take the trouble to argue with them.

A hopeless non-debate
Neither the believing Christian nor the atheist can prove their principal claims. All so-called "proofs" for the existence of God, whether done in the logical fashion of medieval theology or by means of creationist/ID appeals to "evidence" will convince the non-believer that God exists, or that any sort of god can exist. On the other side, the relgious believer will not accept any arguments or "evidence" from the non-believer that there is no God.

The problem is that there is no neutral position from which the claims of both sides can be assessed rationally. If someone says that the Bible proves the truth of Christianity, then what is really being affirmed is a belief in the Bible. The non-believer won't accept that. If someone says that there is no reason to plug God into sciences such as geology, cosmology, astronomy, paleontology, or biology, that these sciences do their explanatory jobs quite well without assuming the existence of God, the religious believer won't agree.

The non-debate is hopeless.

DavidMac
OK, let's use some logic.

Do you justify your non-belief on the lack of evidence or something else? What?

"True atheists don't hate religious believers;"

Is this a tautology? Are the athiests who write books saying that they hate religious believers then not "true" atheists?

"religious believers really hate atheists."

Who are the religious believers who claim to hate atheists? Have they written books stating this? Is this true for all of them? Are they really religious? Which religion?

"Those so-called atheists who rail against Christians do so for POLITICAL, not religious, reasons."

Is this another category of atheist distinct from the others, or are all atheists who "rail against Christians" for political reasons not "true" atheists?

So, are you an atheist, "true" atheist, or just a "so-called" atheist, and how do we distinguish the three?

Finally, you floated from religious believers to "Christians" - why?

Summers - thanks, but what's a nice
girl like you doing in LA? ;-)

god
Please use some logic when discussing atheism and belief in a diety.

Atheists do not believe a diety exists. Religious people do believe a diety exists.

It doesn't matter what rationale people use to support their faith in a diety. It's sufficient that they simply have faith that a diety exists and use whatever rationale fits them personally.

Atheists do not have to justify a lack of faith. They simply don't believe a diety exists and therefor, no proof is necessary to prove the negative.

True atheists don't hate religious believers; religious believers really hate atheists. Those so-called atheists who rail against Christians do so for POLITICAL, not religious, reasons.

Get it straight, people.

SamIAm
I see you are back to claiming that you are Dr. Adams. Remember not too long ago when you were denouncing him (in the third person) as a homosexual?

UncleB
"All of the postings here on this thread DO prove ONE thing. NOBODY has the answer"

What's the question?

Retired Geek
No, no, you misunderstand me. It’s not that I would throw out any of them as I am sure that there are some atheists that would fit each category somewhere. I disagree only with the premise that all atheists or even most fit into these categories and that they generally use ridicule, or 'ad hominem attacks to refute any ideas posited against them.

Steven
We are commanded to preach the Good News with love and gentleness to all nations - that is our work. I can't think of any act of kindness that can compare to that.

We are also called to speak the truth in love - by the time God takes care of the offenses, it will be too late, just as it would be if we said nothing while a child ventured into the street. Am I missing your point here?

Stillla #124
I agree that parents that are involved in their childrens lives make a better society. No doubt about it.

And I assume that when you say;

"Parents who are religiously observant and who take their children to synagogue or Sunday school" that you also mean Muslims too.

And as far as the safety issue goes, I am aware of where I am at all times. I do not lull myself into a false sense of security by assuming that a bunch of guys wearing the same shirts are not threatening.

If I am at the mall they are probably safe. If I am on a dark street in downtown Detroit they are to be considered dangerous. That is the truth. And I don't care if they are black or white in Detroit. Either way they are to be considered a threat.

I will try to forgo wisecracks
Like going from one extreme to the other. I
wonder if it is simply a personality thing.

Instead, I am happy that you have embraced
Christianity. I grew up as a Fundamentalist.
As an adult I have embraced a kinder, gentler
type of Christianity.

What I don't understand is why you still have
so much hate and so many obsessions in your
personality. I think that you have to let those things go too before you will really get
to know your maker.

You don't just point out offenses, say in
feminism and liberalism and homosexuality,
and gun stuff, you go on nearly daily sniffing
out excursions into these "vile" offenses.
Why don't you let God take care of them and
you work on something positive, something that
let's us know how much you now care about
mankind, about God's great green earth, about
God himself. Vengeance in mine, saith the Lord.

He doesn't need help.

To Steve
I read your post, and felt deep sadness. It is exactly what Jesus heard while hanging on the cross..."where is your God now?"
I don't understand the need to ridicule Christianity?? I don't understand the need to ridicule anyone...We all have a choice, we can follow God and his son Jesus Christ, or we can choose not too; we were all born with free will. I would ask that you read the book of Revelations, and then ask yourself the question; "Could this be possible?" if the answer to that question is "yes, it could be possible" then try to open your mind, and your heart to the possibility of something greater than yourself. We are seeing what God promised coming to fruition right now! I don't condemn anyone, for my God teaches me that I should not judge. My prayers will include you Steve, and all others who are not willing to pursue a relationship with the Lord only because I truly do want mankind to find the peace and happiness that God offers. God Bless you!

I Don't Know God
I don't know God. God knows me. God is my friend when I need reassurance. He is my mentor when I need knowledge. He is my brother when I need a hug. He is my guide when I feel lost and confused. He dwells deep inside of me and will never leave me which provides peace of mind. He forgives me when I lost my way and His grace is unending. Today, America is suffering from corruption, liberalists who don't know God and hate him (fortunately for them, they can't be prosecuted for this hate crime during this life time) and mock him and vote him out of office and out of our lives as their anti-American beliefs that hate Judeo Christian values are slapping us in the face and creating a godless country that will suffer the consequences of their actions when our fredoms may be gone forever. Globalization is the end of America as we've know it and died for it and sweat for it for 200 years. The globalists are not concerned about Americans or God, but money - the root of all evil - and they must kick God out of our country in order to gain their other ego-obsessed needs - power and control and teaching promiscuous sexual behaviors to children. I don't know God, but He knows me. Today, there are too many leaders who don't want to know God and have kicked God out of our country, God knows them.

Rich D #131
Thank you for the invitation to the banquet.

I will unfortunately have to decline your invitation at this time and for the forseeable furture.

I prefer my interpretation of a supreme being. While yours is just as valid.

RichD
Appreciate your posts.

All postings prove
All of the postings here on this thread DO prove ONE thing. NOBODY has the answer

Vampire's Reflection
"Considering I can imagine spending eternity with likes of Jerry Falwell, Sean Hannity or pick your favorite question [huh?], I'm guessing not.

Well, at least you admit that you ARE guessing.

"If I can't stand Christians during this mortal span, then hell must truly be spending an eternity with a bunch or uptight, pious, humorless, sanctimonious Christians."

A bit of a non sequitur coupled with ad hominem attacks, don't you think? But don't worry - with your current attitude you will never have to spend eternity with Christians.

truetolife 9:44AM
"I for one am glad that they're here." Me too.

They all have that one endearing quality:

at least they're not indifferent.

Christianity
Christianist is not whether you are a Baptist, Methodist, or whatever. Christianisty is a relationship with God. When you walk with God, you have a friend for life. You may not have riches or fame, but you have a deep peace within your sole. You have a promise of everlasting life.

I was raised in a Christian family - I watched my mother go through many trials of life, but always went on her knees and prayed to God for his blessings and for his help to get through the trials that life brings. When she died, it was a peaceful death - her prayer was that all her children would know God and walk with him. Her greatest desire was that she would see them all in heaven some day.

That promise from God will give you peace and tranquility throught your life.

No one can give you this promise and peace in your heart except through God. Pray to God for him to come into you life, read the scriptures and pray for understanding. If you come to him with faith in your heart, these things will come to you.

Curtail Friar at 10:06 A.M.
warns against “letting this discussion be derailed by trolls” but suggests instead that fellow-believers “share their testimony” to provide shelter from open debate. So “Friar” [preaching to the choir] repeatedly cuts-and-pastes lengthy hymns for the comfort of fellow believer. I suggest, Friar [if you truly wish to sway public opinion] that you afford something intellectually original! I don’t mean to be unkind, Friar, but closing you ears to candid debate reminds me of a Margret [from the Charlie Brown comic strip] clapping her hands over her ears, shouting “n’yah, n’yah, n’yah,“, and stamping her feet to drown others voices. Yet other posts denounce non-believers who would are “come to this site” and express opinions contrary to Praeger and his minions. Until the Town Hall editor declares otherwise TH remains an open forum.

Jim-Too

Happy Heinz
I did not address your remarks on Christianity leading to the suicides of homosexuals as I thought I had the studies disproving what you are asserting in some logical place. As I am in the process of moving, I have to admit that I have displaced them. Nevertheless, I will certainly remember you and, as soon as I find them, I will give you the studies so that you can read them yourself. Suicide rates are no higher among homosexuals than heterosexuals. That charge will not stick.

Off to my volunteer work

Off to my volunteer work visiting the homebound.

All of you could volunteer at least an hour or two a week.

Later this afternoon.

Survey says!
"Your hell will be worse than you can ever imagine."

Considering I can imagine spending eternity with likes of Jerry Falwell, Sean Hannity or pick your favorite question, I'm guessing not.

If I can't stand Christians during this mortal span, then hell must truly be spending an eternity with a bunch or uptight, pious, humorless, sanctimonious Christians.


My only wish is that the theory that all the religions are worshiping the same God is true. That way true justice can be served. The Christians and the Muslims can spend eternity together. That's a delicious thought.

I'd hate to been given a choice of either eternity with one religious faction or the other.

Face it, Christians are undesirable people.
No fun to be around.

As Herb Caen once quipped, "The problem with born-again Christians is that the stink even worse the second time around."



Happy Heinz
Faith has nothing to do with denominations. Faith is not fractured.

Heinz
"That's one of the problems with Christianity, it is so fractured and denominational,"

Then why do you paint it with such a broad brush?

"yet I could find something in most all that is disturbing, such as a hideous belief in devils and demons"

Why is that so hideous? I find it no more hideous than the atheists' belief in "survival of the fittest", which is just a fancy way of saying "might makes right."

"and the intolerance of gays that has led many to suicide."

For someone who claims to believe in "tolerance", you're awfully intolerant of Christians.

pablo st. cruz - orthodox answers
"Which version of Christianity should I believe in, Southern Baptist, Catholic, Protestant or Mormon?"

See below.

"Which one is truly best to believe in if I want to go to heaven?"

One doesn't believe in a church or denomination - one believes that Jesus is the Son of God and Lord and Savior. Any organization that would deny what is expressed in the Nicene Creed is non-Christian and leads people to destruction. That includes the LDS.

"Which one is most likely to get me a trip straight to hell?" Meaningless. See above.

"If a guy is a horrendous child molester and killer and goes to jail for life, then truly finds Jesus in his heart and converts to Christianity before his death is he going to go to Heaven or Hell?"

Heaven. Nine in the morning, five in the afternoon, one second to midnight - it doesn't matter. What are you waiting for?

"If I live my life as a non-believer but follow the Ten Commandments and do good deeds every day, Honor my family and wife and raise good children and contribute to worthy causes but never find Jesus, am I going to heaven or Hell?"

Deeds are irrelevant. No man can successfully follow the 10 Commandments - you (and I) have already failed at that and are condemned by them.

You do not "find" Jesus - you can only choose when to choose Jesus, not whether. You are predestined to choose or reject him.

"Will his heaven be better than my Hell?"

Your hell will be worse than you can ever imagine.

What are you waiting for? The invitations to the banquet have been sent out.

re: My Happy Atheism
heinz
"I had to shun certain family members because their Christian beliefs were not 100% in sync with mine so god was going to kill them."

Ken: That's strange. I've been a Christian for 26 years and I've never believed or been taught ANYTHING like that.

Reply: That's one of the problems with Christianity, it is so fractured and denominational, yet I could find something in most all that is disturbing, such as a hideous belief in devils and demons and the intolerance of gays that has led many to suicide.

MikeR

Which of the seven points I made would you throw out and what would you add?

lonestarblues et al

lonestarblues wrote: "...We do not and likely can never know what happened in the planck moment before Big Bang..."

The moment before or any amount of time before is not the question.

Are 'Space and Motion' also eternal like you say energy is?

Good for a laugh
" I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the most outspoken atheist I know has less control over his emotions than anyone I know.

But I think most former atheists and former agnostics also find that there is another emotion, which sort of disappears once a solid, intellectually based belief in God takes hold in their lives. That emotion is fear. "

Which group is whipping their constituents into a fearful frenzy? Obama or McCain?

Religion is based on fear and claiming that rationalists are irrational is too rich.

Fear of God makes one rational! and in control of their emotions! Wooo hooo! That explains the entire "72 virgins" thing!

This has got to be the most ridiculous comparison of religious vs. rationalists ever written.

Religion = fear and emotional exploitation.

Up is down I guess. George Bush has nothing on Adams.




The Sixth Edition
In the sixth and final edition of Origin of Species, Charles Darwin repudiated natural selection as the chief mechanism of evolution. He instead opted for LaMarc's "Use it or lose it" theory. LaMarc's "theory" was not seriously considered at that point, by serious scientists. So the question at that time and now is: How did we get to this point where we see vast complexity of species, if special creation is a "myth", and natural selection is a fraud?

Pablo st cruz et al

I am an Individualist who believes in a individual relationship with God - NOT a collective one or a 'Collective Salvation as Described by Barack Obama'. I am NOT part of nor do I belong to any 'Organized Religion' - I believe Religion is man's way to God and Jesus Christ is God's way to man.

I will stand before God (with Jesus Christ as my advocate as described in the Book of Hebrews) and account for myself based on my life, my decisions and my actions.

I do NOT judgr religions that is the job of God.

Jesus Christ said: "I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father except through me". If you have a problem with that take it up with Him, He said it NOT me.

attire
Pablo--You are bright and clever in finessing my point. Let's start with my premise, which is that mainstream Christians in American society, as a demographic group, do not pose any threat to an atheist's personal safety, and in fact, they enhance it by their presence. Parents who are religiously observant and who take their children to synagogue or Sunday school, who encourge their children in the Boy or Girl Scouts of America, rear children who are not likely to mug you on a dark street, whether you are in the white suburbs of Chicago or the black inner city. If you are honest, you will acknowledge that if you were to see a group of men coming at you on the sidewalk at night, no matter their skin color, if they were wearing Christian Promise Keeper tee shirts, You would be relieved.

anger
Glad I didn't make anyone angry with this one. That might have been seen as proving my point.

Retired Geek
"Most thinking Atheists say the 'Sigularity of the Big Bang' proves that 'All' was not created but rather happened."

Nonsense. Show me one and I'll argue with him. We do not and likely can never know what happened in the planck moment before Big Bang. The Law of Conservation of Energy says energy cannot be created or destroyed. I would simply say that what is, is. I leave assumptions to you.

"Atheists say we that we who cannot prove God are fools"

Nonsense. Show me one and I'll argue with him. I say God cannot be proven or disproven, God is a matter of faith, faith lies beyond reason.

"Lonestarblues was man enough to claim that 'Energy is Eternal', no proof just a declaration, at least he made a stand."

No, I did not. I said exactly what I said above. Please do not twist my words.

But, tell me, is it not true that you declare belief in God, no proof? It seems your words fit you. You're just projecting.

"Eternal Energy but NO Eternal God seems to be 'Cognitive Dissonance'."

OK, prove God. Start by telling us what you know, no, not what you believe, but what you know of God.

FROG
It's interesting that twice you have responded to me and twice you have failed to address one thing I've said. Instead you make things up out of whole cloth and then criticise what you imagine. You argue straw men as much as Adam's does. You argue your own lies.

Here's what Frog sounds like:

"a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Did I miss something in this article???
I'm confused, did I miss something in the article that some of you saw??? I didn't read anything that I saw as negative against ANYONE! Did I maybe miss a line, or a paragraph??? I think this was a wonderful article that tackled Christianity vs. Atheism...I saw no barbs against any person; even atheists! It was simply a determination that your Life is better when God is in it!

Hear! Hear! Nicely done!

God Bless!!

Retired Geek
Actually the burden is on you to prove your argument; but in light of debate, you should pick one of the atheists here and show how he fits your patterns and I offer a rebuttal. Then I pick one and you show how he fits ect…

Consider the scope of your 12:03 statement. You claim that “Most thinking Atheists say the 'Sigularity of the Big Bang' proves that 'All' was not created but rather happened”. While I am sure some must have made that statement, I don’t see how you can possibly claim that most have. This is where I fault with your reasoning.

As far as meeting atheists, I have had many open and frank discussions over the years with all kinds of people in many settings. I don’t pressure people to talk, but I think I have an encouraging manner, since I find that most folks want to tell you their story.

You raise an interesting point about space aliens. Religion and religious opinions affect all of us sometimes encompassing whole nations in war. Even on a local scale we can find the effects of religious discourse. I believe that if the question of aliens were ever to become important in the minds of enough people we would find their existence to become a matter of debate. After all, how would you feel if school kids all pledged “On nation under the watchful eyes of aliens”?

Don Juan at 10:31 am
"Frog: 'I've also heard it posited that if Jesus was not who He said He was, then His teachings must be completely disregarded. If one can't accept him as the Christ, then He must be raving lunatic.'

That presupposes the untenable assumption that he was quoted correctly. Matthew didn't even know that the Jewish day began at sunset (Matt. 28:1; the only undoctored translation is in the NASB, and most Christians don't read koine)."

First, why is it untenable to assume that Jesus (I presume that “he” is Jesus) was quoted directly? Matthew was an eyewitness to Jesus.

Second, I am amazed that Matthew, who was a Jew, did not know that the Jewish day began at sunset. He must not have had any education at all, nor any contact with other Jews to have been so ignorant.
My point is that he did know, that the Jewish day began at sunset, and when he wrote of the women’s coming to the tomb, he described the time of their arrival as being when the sun was rising on the first day after the end of the sabbath. I read Koine, and I cannot get any other sense from this passage but that the women arrived at the tomb as the sun was rising. Incidentally, if one translation differs from all the rest, perhaps it is the wrong translation.

Hey Geek
Here's one for you.

You answer mine and I'll answer yours;

Which version of Christianity should I believe in, Southern Baptist, Catholic, Protestant or Mormon?

Which one is truly best to believe in if I want to go to heaven?

Which one is most likely to get me a trip straight to hell?

If a guy is a horrendous child molester and killer and goes to jail for life, then truly finds Jesus in his heart and converts to Christianity before his death is he going to go to Heaven or Hell?

If he is going to Hell then did turning his life over to Jesus really do him any good?

If I live my life as a non-believer but follow the Ten Commandments and do good deeds every day, Honor my family and wife and raise good children and contribute to worthy causes but never find Jesus, am I going to heaven or Hell?

Will his heaven be better than my Hell?

Geek, I'm just asking
Did I get any right?

Can you alternately explain dark matter and it's relationship to all matter in the Universe?


How about the "God Particle?"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+god+particle

What happens if we find it?

Lot's of questions but few answers.

Wisdom…

Dr. Adams, is there more of an intellectual Christian that the writer of Romans? Yet, he says that in the wisdom of God, the wisdom of man did not know God. Men who by nature suppress the knowledge of God do not grow out of atheism into the truth of the gospel. They are bound to their sin and without ability to do anything to help themselves; they are idolaters and spiritually dead with regard to the wisdom of God revealed in the gospel.

A radical change of heart is necessary. Christ called it the new birth. The apostles called it regeneration. We must be born again to see the kingdom. A man cannot enter into what is unseen until he has been given the eyes of faith.

Every believer has been confronted by Christ on his way to Damascus. Perhaps not as dramatic as Paul, but to some extent the risen Christ invaded our world; He changed us so that we began to walk in a different direction.

Intellectual persuasion has no power to raise the dead. That power rests with Christ alone. That is why Paul could write these words…

‘And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God’ [1 Corinthians 2:1-5].

Hey Stillllla!!? #107
What neighborhood am I in when those Promise keepers come down the street?

Urban or suburban?

Are they Black or White?

Are they young or old?

MikeH

Read my post at 11:27 am - my family were Atheists going back three generations - I agree with you NONE of them were angry types - bemused would be a better term.

I personally became angry at my family for raising me in a Humanist/Atheist environment, but I have never asked anyone to follow my footsteps.

I would have rather been raised to make decisions on facts, reason and logic but no one is allowed to choose the family you are born into.

Demo #100
String Theory does not have as many holes as ID has in it's basis.

And I'm not sure what you mean by
"The left fervently believes in AGW which is caused by man -generated “greenhouse gases” while ignoring fluctuations in “solar luminosity” in the UV spectrum band associated w/ “black spot” activity."

Most of the information I have about AGW has discredited those concepts as being of insignificant magnitude to replace the AGW theory.

But they are only the National Oceangraphic and Atmospheric Administration, the American Physist Associationand the American Metrology Society.
http://www.aps.org/
http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/07_1.cfm
http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

pablo st. cruz

Please re-read my post or have someone read it to you.


Heinz
Were you a Christian Scientist?

MikeR

You have piqued my curiousity.

These many Atheists you have known.

How did you discover they were Atheists?

Hardly anyone knew my family were Atheists, because they believed God was a myth - therefore they had no animus towards something that did NOT exist.

Dennis Kuchinch and Louis Farakhan have both seen Aliens from outer space. I have NOT went on a campaign to disprove Aliens - I am simply amused by their ignorance.

BTW, Will and MellorSJ2 are behavioural Atheists.

Heinz - for sure you weren't in a
Christian church. Too bad.

"Reply: My life with God was an anxiety driven life. I had to worry about Hell and Armageddon. I had to shun certain family members because their Christian beliefs were not 100% in sync with mine so god was going to kill them. I was part of a religion that wallowed in hate and demanded that the brethren not accept certain medical practices that might prolong their lives."

Atheists Benefit From Us
Unlike agnostics, atheists are not benign non-believers who just can't or won't take that great leap of faith. They are aggressive attackers of our 200-year-old religous-based American heritage. While they work to expunge religion from our society, they benefit from those of us who rear our children in a religious faith.

Talk show host, Dennis Prager, an observant Jew, poses a thought-provoking situation: You are walking down a dark street late at night. In the distance, a group of men is approaching. Your heart pounds. As they loom into the light, you see that they are wearing Promise Keeper tee shirts. Are you now more fearful or less?

Lines from a beloved Longfellow poem:
Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our live sublime
And, departing leave behind us
Footprints in the sands of time.

So atheists, your epitaphs will read: "He worked tirelessly to eliminate the American religious heritage and to create a godless society and government." I hope that we Americans don't have to see your footprints in the sands of time.

I think I have #5
Black Holes? Did I get it right?

#2 - Could be alternate or paralell universes.

#3 - Orgin of motion? How about Big Bang.

These are all theories of course.

Can matter be in two places at once?

What is dark matter?

What is dark energy?

What is the answer?

42!!

MikeR

Describe those Atheists who do not fit into any of those categories I set forth.

Singularity of 'Big Bang'

Most thinking Atheists say the 'Sigularity of the Big Bang' proves that 'All' was not created but rather happened.

1) Origin of energy?

2) Origin of Space?

3) Origin of Motion?

4) Origin of Time?

5) Origin of materials necessary to 'Bang'?

Those who have no answers for these questions are 'Nothing but Speculators' on whether or NOT God exists.

Atheists say we that we who cannot prove God are fools - yet Atheists have NO proof of the origin of these 5 things - does that make them fools?

Lonestarblues was man enough to claim that 'Energy is Eternal', no proof just a declaration, at least he made a stand.

Eternal Energy but NO Eternal God seems to be 'Cognitive Dissonance'.


stilla #94
Are they blcak and wearing "gansta" do-rags?

Are they white and well dressed?

Am I in the ghetto or in the suburbs?

Actually what shirts they are wearing means absolutely nothing. It is the situation, the surrondings that determine the level of awareness.

If I'm in the ghetto and they are white it would be reasonable to assume the worst. What are white guys doing in the ghetto?

Black guys in the suburbs.

What is the situation?

The Seven Storey Mountain
Thomas Merton, once an atheist, says:
"I know that many people are, or call themselves, "atheists" simply because they are repelled and offended by statements about God made in imaginary and metaphorical terms which they are not able to interpret and comprehend. They refuse these concepts of God, not because they despise God, but perhaps because they demand a notion of Him more perfect than they generally find; and because ordinary, figurative concepts of God could not satisfy them, they turn away and think that there are no other; or, worse still, they refuse to listen to philosophy, on the ground that it is nothing but a web of meaningless words spun together for the justification of the same old hopeless falsehoods.

"What a relief it was for me, now, to discover not only that no idea of ours, let alone any image, could not adequately represent God, but also tht we should not allow ourselves to be satisfied with any such knowledge of Him."

Questions for Atheists? Origin of Energy

Energy can be changed from one form to another but cannot be created or destroyed, therefore is always conserved. The potential of energy is less than the original state.

What is the relationship of energy and time?

Kinetic energy is motion which introduces time.

Geological time is a mixture of absolute time and relative time.

Man creates nothing but frame of reference and draws conclusions based on observation.

When was the origin of energy?

What was the source of energy?

I have arrived at the conclusion that one of the following explains the origin of energy.

1) energy does not exist.

2) energy spontaneously occured from nothing.

3) energy is eternal or without the element of time.

4) energy was created by intelligence.

Without mixing any of the aforementioned, cite a fifth explanation of the origin of energy.

Humility
Speaking as a Deist, concepts like evolution and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. I find that most people who believe in a deity/prime mover do so w/ the humility that they are not so arrogant (i.e. atheists), as to believe that every single question about our existence in a minor arm of a common galaxy can be answered via our current limited understanding of “physical laws”, e.g., the current “Super string” theory of existence apparently has some wide mathematical holes.

In contrast, many “Secular Progressive” leftists seek to employ the ubiquitous, infallible “State” as a crutch for their existence. It’s just as ridiculous to worship the “collective” as a tool for good as it is to worship some ubiquitous, disembodied spirit. These are also same enlightened people who choose to dispense w/ scientific fact when it conflicts with their leftist ideology. Some examples: The left believes in the validity of “science by consensus of opinion” as replacement for the scientific method. The “scientific method” is apparently invalid because of its hierarchical, patriarchal nature & its reliance on “fact”, e.g. the “anthropogenic global warming” (AGW) debate. The left fervently believes in AGW which is caused by man -generated “greenhouse gases” while ignoring fluctuations in “solar luminosity” in the UV spectrum band associated w/ “black spot” activity. Currently, the Martian ice caps are also receding. Apparently those evil Republicans have secretly found an inexpensive way of transporting their SUVs to Mars. Lastly, the left’s fundamental anti-intellectualism can be summed up by the following: Marxism as an economic model is an abject failure, yet the modern left actively employs Marxism as a tool of social engineering. Yet, there is nothing nuanced, revolutionary or evolutionary about the continued employment of the same old “victim/oppressor” Marxist canard as replacement for rational thought.

Retired Geek
I’ve known or spoken to many atheists over the years and none really fit into your categories. You often refer to your family and what appear to be hard feelings over how you were raised. You strike me as the Christian version of this “typical atheist” that Adams and others here keep describing.

I take particular issue with what you call ridicule, or 'ad hominem attacks' as being typical atheist behavior. I have certainly witnessed such behavior from some atheists, but I have seen just as much from some Christians. This thread and D’Souza’s have fine examples of both. Neither is truly representative of their perspective groups. Rather they are particular aspects of human nature that some people posses in greater quantity regardless of their position in this debate.

Professor X #2
Very interesting site about the anti-Christ evolutionists. Well documented with facts.

Look at the Atheist Posters

Look at the Atheist Posters on this column today and you will see that each of them fit into the categories I described or a combination thereof.

Atheists are very predictable.

Atheists in their quest to be non-conformists, are conformists of the first magnitude.

buck
I have never heard of that argument being raised by anyone. Where does that come from? Has someone used it in this thread and I missed it?

heinz
"I had to shun certain family members because their Christian beliefs were not 100% in sync with mine so god was going to kill them."

That's strange. I've been a Christian for 26 years and I've never believed or been taught ANYTHING like that.

Aggressive Atheists
I grow weary of liberal atheists who profess to fear a theocracy if religious views are allowed to remain in the public domain, as they were for 200 years. Anti-religious bigots enjoy a benefit in this society from those of us who rear our children in our religious faith. If you aggressive atheists doubt that benefit, Talk show host, Dennis Prager, a Jew, poses an interesting question: You are walking down a dark street at night. Coming toward you is a group of men. You become anxious. As they loom closer, you see that they are wearing Promise Keeper tee shirts. Are you now more fearful for your safety or relieved?

Categories of Atheists

I was raised in a family of Atheists that went back at least three generations before me. I met many other Atheists and all Atheists fall into general categories or a combination of these categories:

1) Angry Atheists - those who either consciously or sub-consciously blame God for personal tradgedies or human tradgedy in general (death, wars, suffering, hunger etc.) which is proof positive to them that there is NO God.

2) Amused Atheists - those who consider themselves 'Enlightened' and transcend other humans who exhibit 'Faith' and consider them simpletons, while considering themselves intellectually and morally superior.

3) Behavioural Atheists - a prime example are homosexuals, who find themselves in contradiction to natural law and blame their deviancy on God or anything other than chosen behaviour.

4) 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' Atheists - those that hold something is false only because it hasn't been proved true (God), or that something is true only because it has not been proved false (Big Bang).

5) Atheistic Contrarians - those humans who are always against anything that is commonly held, if 99% of humans were Atheists - they would believe in God.

6) Marxist Atheists et al - those who believe that Government by humans and for humans, must have the highest allegiance and anything else (God) must be secondary and therefore inferior or non-existent by definition.

7) Amoralistic Egoism or 'Individualist Atheist' - those who believe their freedom to do anything 'freely chosen', supercedes any guideline, creed, commandments or moral restrictions, placed on them by God.

Atheists generally use ridicule, or 'ad hominem attacks' (religious behaviour) to refute any ideas posited against them, which actually gives credence to those ideas, because the attackers have NO real answers or refutations.


My Happy Atheism
>>Whenever I would get frustrated with him I would remember my days as an atheist and a bit of sympathy would set in. My life without God was an anxiety driven life. My life with God is a purpose driven life. It isn’t just a cliché.

Reply: My life with God was an anxiety driven life. I had to worry about Hell and Armageddon. I had to shun certain family members because their Christian beliefs were not 100% in sync with mine so god was going to kill them. I was part of a religion that wallowed in hate and demanded that the brethren not accept certain medical practices that might prolong their lives.

Getting out of this life-sucking death-cult was the greatest thing i ever did in my life.

Seriously?
Does anyone here actually believe, as Adam's seems to say, that anger is a characteristic solely of atheism? Do I really have to go to youtube and find videos of people driven to anger because of their Christian beliefs?

I am an atheist (though I don't like the term, I don't shy away from it), and I don't consider myself an angry person. I don't think my friends would either.

Atheists, their anger against GOD
It's funny, the atheists who profess a disbelief in GOD, blames GOD for all the bad things that is happening. Why is it, that you're blaming GOD, a spirit you do not believe exist, for causing all these "bad luck" that is happening? I see a dichotomy in this argument.

Steve
"Isn't it strange that your God hasn't sent any prophets in 2000 years?"

Not really - there will be no more signs.

"...personally I can't figure out why people have this need to believe in a god."

It's not a need. You can choose to speak to some of us if you are really interested.

Our Father,
Who art in heaven,
Hallowed by thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those
Who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power
and the glory forever.
Amen.

Don Juan
"That presupposes the untenable assumption that he was quoted correctly. Matthew didn't even know that the Jewish day began at sunset (Matt. 28:1; the only undoctored translation is in the NASB, and most Christians don't read koine)."

Now there's a debate whose entrance you might want to reconsider. What do YOU know about Koine, Biblical translation, and exegesis? Let me know your critical scholarly comments this representative sample of the debate, and your reading of THi EPIFWSKOUSHi EIS MIAN SABBATWN.

Cheers.

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing
1. Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King,
peace on earth, and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled!"
Joyful, all ye nations rise,
join the triumph of the skies;
with th' angelic host proclaim,
"Christ is born in Bethlehem!"
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King!"

2. Christ, by highest heaven adored;
Christ, the everlasting Lord;
late in time behold him come,
offspring of a virgin's womb.
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
hail th' incarnate Deity,
pleased with us in flesh to dwell,
Jesus, our Emmanuel.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King!"

3. Hail the heaven-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and life to all he brings,
risen with healing in his wings.
Mild he lays his glory by,
born that we no more may die,
born to raise us from the earth,
born to give us second birth.
Hark! the herald angels sing,
"Glory to the new born King!"

Isn't it strange
Isn't it strange that your God hasn't sent any prophets in 2000 years? Does the church recognize any prophets today? Why don't you just believe in yourself, why do you need to believe in some god? Maybe what you need is just some conseling, maybe you had a horrible childhood, personally I can't figure out why people have this need to believe in a god. It makes no more sense than altering your mind with drugs and alcohol, all of them take you to places that are not reality.

A Mighty Fortress Is Our God
A mighty fortress is our God,
a bulwark never failing;
our helper he amid the flood
of mortal ills prevaling.
For still our ancient foe
doth seek to work us woe;
his craft and power are great,
and armed with cruel hate,
on earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide,
our striving would be losing,
were not the right man on our side,
the man of God's own choosing.
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is he;
Lord Sabbaoth, his name,
from age to age the same,
and he must win the battle.

And though this world, with devils filled,
should threaten to undo us,
we will not fear, for God hath willed
his truth to triumph through us.
The Prince of Darkness grim,
we tremble not for him;
his rage we can endure,
for lo, his doom is sure;
one little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers,
no thanks to them, abideth;
the Spirit and the gifts are ours,
thru him who with us sideth.
Let goods and kindred go,
this mortal life also;
the body they may kill;
God's truth abideth still;
his kingdom is forever.

Frog - yeah, I didn't want to get into
C. S. Lewis. That scares people.

Ridiculous
I am not angry, but when people go around preaching to the masses that somehow they have the answer, you are nothing more than a cult like the moonies.  I am a scientist, show me the proof, your bible is absurd, you believe in some book put together 300 years after your jesus died by a bunch of bishops who threw out some of the most relavent, such as the books of Mary.  I don't even pretend to know the answer, but I don't think there is some personal god out there, that is a crutch just like drugs and alcohol.  To say that athesists are angry is also a dumb statement.  Has no more validity than saying christians are angry.  I don't consider myself an atheist either, it is just a dumb to say you know there isn't a god.  There are ten dimensions in this universe, it is much more believable that your soul evolves into another dimension that any of those fables in the bible, koran and whatever the buddists believe.  You actually believe there is some supreme being that is so vain they made someone in their image, and then was so violent and mean as to turn people in salt, tell someone he has to sacrafice his child, kill the first born of thousands for someone elses evil deed, punish everyone after your adam and eve because of their original sin.  I would not want such a god to believe in.  That is just a small part of your bible, there is much more.  Man has been outgrowing his gods for thousands of years.  We have learned much since then through science, and there are christians who still insist the earth is 6,000 years old.  They want this  taught alongside evolution, this is when your religon becomes dangerous.  Believe in your fairy tales, teach it to your own children, but keep it out of the public schools, send your kids to a catholic school if you want them to learn religon in school.

nutnfinr
No one has to prove the negative. You don’t have to prove that something doesn’t exist; only that it does.

And another thing; how does your theory apply to Moslems and Jews?

In the Presence of mine Enemies
Christians in modern America are remarkably fearful people - where is our faith. .........
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/10/12/obamas-journey-dont-s top-believing/

Curtal Friar
Excellent suggestion! Why positively reinforce non-believers when we can spend our time positively reinforcing other believers in this dangerous world?? After all--atheists can "not" believe anything they want--why should we cater to their hatred? Let's help each other out--lots of us are going through tough times--I say let's use the grace and wisdom God has given us and hold each other up in support?
I'm heading off to work but, hopefully, later I will be reading positively wonderful stories of God's healing grace and comfort!!

My testimony
I grew up in a fairly religious family and have believed in God from my earliest memories.

I faithfully read the Bible and prayed every day, and was excited about my faith and often attempted to share with others.

Unfortunately, that time ended after I graduated high school and joined the Army. I was stationed in Panama for my first assignment, and I had some extremely bad experiences, which I allowed to turn me away from God. I became very bitter and angry and hostile toward God and his Son, and I treated christians with contempt and insults and anger.

During that time, though I had fallen away from God, I tried to fill the hole in my spirit with other religions. I tried Zen Buddhism and when that did not meet what I needed, I ventured into paganism. It was while in pagan circles that I met my wife, and she helped me get back on the right path with God.

Oddly enough, my wife was even more of a pagan than I could ever have been. She sensed the pain that lay underneath my hostility to God, and the more she tried to help me let go of that pain, the more she began to realize the truth of God. She converted and became a christian, and by her example and love, helped and encouraged me back into the fold.

God does work in mysterious ways. :)

It's enough to gag a maggot
"How about let's share our testimonies?"

Where's my barf bag?

Rich D.
I've also heard it posited that if Jesus was not who He said He was, then His teachings must be completely disregarded. If one can't accept him as the Christ, then He must be raving lunatic.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

We do?
Circle Friar claims that "[we]c laim that we are hateful, demeaning, condescending, and closeminded toward atheists and those who don't share our beliefs."

No, we don't.

We claim you are attempting to write your beliefs into law so they may be imposed on the rest of us: same-sex marriage, abortion, etc etc




Hmmmm.....
Seems atheists have faith, too! Otherwise, how could they believe so blindly in something that they can't prove?

Christians say there is a God, but they cannot prove it in a "scientific" way that will convince atheists. They can only say that they have faith and point to miracles of varying kinds that the Christian attributes to the hand of God.

Atheists say there is no God, but they can't prove it in a way that will convince Christians. They can only say (that they have faith) that the same miracles are only coincidences.

So how about this:

If people believe in God and there is no God, they have only enriched their lives by working to make themselves acceptable to the God in which they have faith. Even if there is no God, they have lost nothing and gained everything.

If one does not believe in God, they only have faith in themselves. They believe whatever they wish and have faith that they can meet the rules of conduct and ethics (if any) they set for themselves. They envision nothing beyond earthly death. But if there is a God, they have squandered the opportunity to achieve eternal life by working to please God, and they will suffer the consequences of hell.

So for the disbelievers who are stuck in a self created lose-lose situation, they have only to accept God and his son Jesus Christ to change their condition to win-win.

God Bless all, and especially those who deny him! When he touches them, they will discover real peace and understanding.

Here's what lonestar sounds like:
lonestarblues is like Vizzini from the movie "The Princess Bride"

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?

A rebuke
I am an atheist and I am extremely happy with my life. I am a faithful husband, and a father of 4 children. It is for this last point which I am writing. Please stop insulting atheists simply because you were a poor one. There are many honest and hard working atheists in the world who deserve more respect. I for one am tired of my children being ostracized by religious bigots such as yourself. There is no place in a civilized world for the negative discourse you seem so happy to create on a regular basis.

Jim
"We generally accept the moral and ethical teachings of Christ...but we cannot accept the [super natural] existence of a supreme deity."

Jim, this makes no sense - if Jesus was not who he said he was, then there is no more moral authority behind anything he said than there is behind anything I or anyone else says. Isn't is true that you accept only part of what he says, and then only because it appeals to you?

To the other christians on this thread
Instead of letting this discussion be derailed by trolls, how about getting it to a more positive note?

How about let's share our testimonies?

I'll go first in my next post to get it rolling. I would love to hear some of your testimonies as well.

truetolife
What I find to be revealing is the fact that the atheists like will and mellor and others feel compelled to come to columns like this and post their angry comments, insults, and generally derisive statements against christians and christian belief and fail to see the irony of what they are doing.

They claim that we are hateful, demeaning, condescending, and closeminded toward atheists and those who don't share our beliefs.

They never seem to realize that they are the only ones here who are acting in the manner they claim they are denouncing.

What's Your Point?
Seriously. You've successfully brought out Atheist trolls.

I could write an opposite article to bring out the Christian ones.

I sincerly hope that you are not trying to help anyone.

Bad advice, Jim
Jesus himself makes it clear that there is only one way to salvation, and that is through him.

Your morals and virtues matter not.

Your deeds matter not.

Doing things in God's name means nothing.

Jim, your words and thoughts sound nice, but ultimately are worthless and are leading you and potentially others to damnation.

You cannot separate the divinity of Christ, and the importance of belief in him and acceptance of his sacrifice for your salvation, without making the message worthless.

Christ was not a philosopher. He was the Son of God. He sacrificed his life to save all of us. Only by believing in him and accepting his sacrifice can we be assured of salvation.

It's good to see the usual
angry atheists here! As Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said: The more violently men hate truth, the more they think about it.

It's impossible to find a thread about Christianity without the atheists seeking it out because they are constantly thinking about the truth--and hopefully, will eventually find it. By their posts, we will know that they are great haters. I for one am glad that they're here.

Dr. Adams, another great column! Thank you!

anger
Good article on atheist's anger. I have never had a conversation with an atheist that didn't end by them insulting me. Never. They start with what they think is a brilliant argument, like some comments on here but when I present the holes in their argument, all they can do is insult, which is I bet what happens on the comments here when anyone pokes holes in weak atheist arguments.

It Is Well With My Soul
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
When sorrows like sea billows roll;
Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blessed assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.

It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
Even so, it is well with my soul.

It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

Goatlockerloungerlizard at 4:14 A.M.
Well said. GLLL! I think you speak for the vast majority of "non-believers". We generally accept the moral and ethical teachings of Christ...but we cannot accept the [super natural] existence of a supreme deity. However, if there is some nature of deity "out there" [and I can't rule out that possibility] that deity needs neither "worship" nor "adoration" from mere human beings. The religions [of which there are thousands...all claiming to be the One True Faith] denigrate the potential existence of a deity by mans "gilding of the lily" [the extraneous trappings of religious practice]. "God" did not make man in His image...but rather man has constructed manifold gods in man's imagine So, your god is too small, I contend. My advice? Be quietly content that a "God" may exist...and only "worship" Him by unselfishly serving the our fellow man and all the natural world.

Jim-Too

John 3:18-21
18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.
19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil.
20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up;
21 but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.'

Only Jesus is Worthy
Be sure to cheat and read the end of the Book. It's important to know Who wins, how He wins and how to play our part. Jesus alone is Worthy.

Mr. Adams I wonder at what you say.
Being raised as a Christian I knew all the facts. I wanted to believe and yet I wanted to enjoy sin also. Sin I eventuallly decided was no cup of tea and left scars. So I went searching and asking and was found.

But atheists as you pointed out never go searching, never go asking so I wonder how can atheists be reached. They don't even seem to have a sense of how to reason.

Even worse than the angry atheist is the person that lives morally and fulfilled and never seems to need to know God.

Or the person in the pew that recites the same prayers week after week and never seeks Jesus.

It's all in God's hands really. But for my part I find very few people that have any interest in the subject.

Hey Lounge Lizard
Who is is Jesus? Why was our calendar based on his life? Why is it that much of our money uses the term (In God we trust)? Why are crosses used to mark cemetery resting places? Why is man different that animals? Why is the Bible the most read book on earth? Why do so many believe that God exists? Why were there so many universities originally created to teach Bible and to train Preachers? Yes much has changed but he has not. Have A great day.

A McCain Well Within Grasp
I’m an organizational psychologist and pollster. Notwithstanding what the MSM reports to demoralize and deactivate Republicans, I assure you that this is a VERY CLOSE race; it’s two points in either direction after adjusting for (1) the Bradley Effect and (2) and what is likely is exceptionally high McCain-Palin turnout based on fear and loathing of Obama’s radical socialist ideology, Chicago machine origins, terrorist connections and black separatist church roots. This second factor CANNOT be captured in the current sampling frames. Bottom line, if the McCain-Palin registered voters participate at a 75% level, the election is ours.
Stir the turnout motivation by speaking directly to everyone about how an Obama presidency would be a disaster for America through legislation, executive orders and judicial appointments:
X A massive tax increase on small business owners sucking the life out of an already weakened economy and sending us to the brink of a depression
X Increases in capital gains rates—another economy-killing measure
X An end to any reasonable prospects for offshore drilling for oil and gas to create energy independence
X Open borders, subsidized college tuition, social security and drivers’ licenses for illegal aliens
X Unfettered far left policy making power in the troika of Obama, Pelosi and Reid
X Reinstitution of affirmative action and racial quotas
X Increased federal funding for abortions
X Restriction of the Bill of Rights with union thug card-signing intimidation and imposition of the inappropriately labeled Fairness Doctrine
X A weakened defense and foreign policy , including derailing the Reagan Strategic Defense Initiative
X Appointments to the Supreme Court, Courts of Appeal and District Courts that distort the Constitution.

It’s all a matter of belief.
Proselytizing Xians are quite fond of describing Atheists as ‘lacking belief’ or denying the existence of god. Xians, and believers in other metaphysical flavors, seem incapable of understanding that Atheists do not ‘lack’ belief – they simply believe something else. They believe that there is no god or gods.
Whatever explanations of the big ‘how and why’ questions they may offer (and there are many), the commonality among Atheists is that they have no gods. To them, gods are merely gap fillers where man does not have answers. They are able to accept the reality that we do not yet have answers to all questions. They have no need to prove ‘their’ beliefs. Nor do they have a need to disprove those of others. Call it apathetic, but they just don’t care what others may choose to believe – as long as it is not imposed it on them.

You know
While I agree with most of Adams' take on atheism, I question his point about fear. I have found some devout Christians also express fear, sometimes even about the God they proclaim they love and who loves them. We can read in these threads many cases of not only fear but grave doubt about the future of the world and this country. Yet through it all, I believe these folks posses a sincere belief in God. Sometimes fear is the motivation that turns one or keeps one’s faith alive.

In a similar vein, I think it is a coincidence that the most outspoken atheist Dr. Adams knows has less control over his emotions than anyone I know. The key here is the outspokenness, not the atheism which is related to a lack of emotional control.

In both cases, we are dealing with basic aspects of human nature. Faith is also a basic aspect of human nature, just as much as doubt can be. And herein lays the conflict. There is no proof of the existence of God. A believer is just that, one who believes. Subsequently, having this belief is no guarantee of any great change or improvement in human nature.

While I would take any opportunity to explain to an atheist why I am a believer, I would never hold their lack of belief as a flaw against them. In this great debate, we often see each side holding the other's belief (or lack of it) up to ridicule. And this is wrong according to the tenets of both.

Several Thoughts
First, I want to thank Mr. Adams on an article that takes what most lack to even consider writing, Humility. Realizing that no matter how hard you try, you are not in control of your life or anything else around you; and that no matter how hard you try to ignore the existance of God; personal revelation will prove otherwise.
Second, religion has made many angry at God; and why should'nt it? Religion is man trying to work his way to God, by His own means, which can never be acomplished, for ALL have fallen short of Gods glory (Holiness). Christianity is having a personal relationship with God through Faith and belief in the savior HE provided mankind; Jesus the Christ. God knew that man would always fall short, but he loves us so much that He didnt want mankind to be seperated from Him in eternity for failing to live with eachother by the simple rules He commanded us to follow. By our own nature , we could not. Many have tried to prove God does not exist; and because of their laborious efforts; they have proved He Does. It just takes peeling awawy self pride long enough to think and open ones mind to the smallest of possibility that He does exist, Loves Us ALL; and wants our lives together to be good, holy and productive for the benifit of ALL.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.


Amazing Grace
How sweet, the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see

Through many dangers, toils and snares...
we have already come.
T'was Grace