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Monday, June 02, 2008
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Our States' Right to Kill the Rapist
by Mike Adams
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Over the course of the last two years I’ve been telling my students about an important case making its way up to the United States Supreme Court. The State of Louisiana has been seeking to execute those who are convicted of the aggravated rape of children. As of this writing the Supremes are approaching a decision in that case – one that would not have been difficult but for the legacy of Chief Justice Earl Warren.

Our Founding Fathers would never have imagined the constitutionality of executing rapists to be a serious question. Indeed my own state, North Carolina, considered rape – along with murder, burglary, and arson – to be punishable by death for the better part of the 20th Century. None of this would be controversial until some time after the Court – led by Chief Justice Earl Warren – announced that it had somehow inherited a new standard for declaring statutes in violation of the Eighth Amendment’s ban on Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

That standard is now known as the “evolving standard of decency.” The case of Coker v. Georgia (1977) may well represent its most indecent application. I argue that the case was wrong on at least two counts.

First, in its application of the concept of “evolving standards of decency,” the Court rightly noted that after the re-instatement of the death penalty in America (see Furman v. Georgia, 1972) most states had elected not to classify rape as a capital offense. But, strangely, the Court also cited as evidence of an “evolving standard of decency” that citizens of Georgia had in recent years declined to impose the sentence of death in over 90% of the cases when given the option. This should have signaled to the Court that the people of Georgia had been cautiously reserving the ultimate penalty of death for the most aggravated of cases.

But, instead, the Court saw this as evidence that Georgians were catching up to more “advanced” notions of punishment. Since they seemed to be catching up on their own it was not unreasonable to force them to adopt the views of (what they believed to be) the majority: Those who believe rape should be punished by no more than life without parole.

This strange logic was supplemented with some rather disturbing statements about the severity of rape relative to murder. The Court indicated its agreement with the punishment of murder with death. But the Court dubbed death to be a disproportionate punishment for rape reasoning that the adult rape victim can still live a relatively normal life – even after suffering from an aggravated rape.

Here, two more problems emerge – one logical and the other empirical. To all except those who believe that the theft of $1000 could be deterred by a fine of less than $1000 (say $800) the logical problem is readily apparent. To all who have suffered - or who know someone who has suffered an aggravated rape – the empirical invalidity of the Court’s statements about life after rape is readily apparent.

Of course, for all of the shortcomings of Coker, at least it did leave open the door for those states wishing to craft narrowly tailored statutes allowing for the execution of those who commit the crime of aggravated rape against a child. No one could argue seriously that the victim of child rape has any real prospect of living a reasonably normal life. I hope the Court will make the right decision in 2008 – one that will, in part, mitigate a bad decision rendered in 1977.

As I write this column, just a few short weeks have passed since a 95-year old woman was raped in the upstairs bedroom of her home in downtown Wilmington, North Carolina. Sadly, there is no prospect that this man will ever be caught, tried, convicted, and executed. The Court does not allow the execution of those who rape adults - even those who rape 95 year olds who will never see life return to anything like a “normal” state of affairs.

The people of Georgia had it right a third of a century ago when they sought to execute Mr. Coker for the aggravated rape of a teenaged girl. After all, he had killed someone before, raped a teenager before, and raped again after escaping from prison. Why should they put him back in prison just to decide whether he wanted to rape people on the inside or escape again to rape people on the outside? Death is the only reasonable deterrent for such a hardened criminal.

The necessity of executing people like Coker should be readily apparent to anyone – regardless of his state of moral “evolution.” The need to execute those who rape our grandchildren – and grandmothers, for that matter – should be just as apparent to the enlightened mind.

Regrettably, the Supreme Court is now involved in the very complex business of deciding whether some kind of “trend” dictates the constitutionality of the child rape statute. That is a question best left for the states in reliance on both common law and common sense.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Hey, I finally wholeheartedly agree with
Mike! Raping the young & very old is immoral (and you all thought gays didn't have a moral compass!).

But Mike talks about the easy morality of putting those to death that rape grandchildren and grandparents. That seems pretty black & white to me. But what about the 19-year-old guy who "rapes" his 16-year-old girlfriend? Does he get the death penalty too? What about the blonde 23-year-old porn-star-looking teacher we always see on Fox News who "rapes" her 15-year-old student? (Bill O LOVES airing footage of scantily-clad gone-wild college girls to TEASE his audience during these segments).

Obviously there is no one-size-fits-all Law or formula for rape and the death penalty. When I was 17-years-old my first sexual experience was with a 24-year-old married man (no, I didn't realize he was married at the time). I wanted the sex, too (typical 17-year-old kid). Should the 24-year-old get the death penalty for something I felt was consensual?

It seems to me we have to figure out these not clear-cut cases, too. 91-year-old grandma getting raped is a no-brainer. Fry the SOB.

The fact that
this is even has to be in the supreme court is stupid. This should be a states right to decide how and what punishment should be assigned to the criminal.

Isn't this suppose to be a federalist government?

Funny, but, those criminals never gave a thought about whether their victims could or would lead a normal life after they had been assualted. Why should we care?

Personally, I think the punishment should be left up to the victim's family. Especially in the case of a child.

Now, before you bleeding hearts get all bent out of shape, I'm talking about those cases where confessions and/or DNA prove, beyond a doubt, of the guilt of the criminal.

statutory rape
will, are you being willfully ignorant? Adams is obviously not talking about statutory rape.

All state laws distinguish between aggrevated rape (which is what Adams specified in the column) and statutory rape, where the victim was willing but too young to legally consent. Most state laws also have exceptions even to their statutory rape laws for people close in age.

But guys who rape children & the elderly
is a no-brainer! Where's the moral conundrum? I would think that we could ALL agree the death penalty is valid is these cases. Is this a column about states rights vs. federal? What's the issue?

Note to Mike: I was a bit skeptical when you threw in the phrase "evolving standards of decency". This sounds like PRECISELY the liberal-sounding buzz phrase you'd toss in to stir the masses. (It's sounds like red meat to conservative posters: like the phrase "the LIVING Constitution". You can practically see backs start to stiffen).

You do seem to pander to your constituency readership, Michael, often sacrificing original thought in the process. I'm hoping for more ORIGINAL Mike columns in the future, forsaking conservative talking points.

So the column is about - what now?

State's rights issue
This is simply another instance of the federal government, in this case the Supreme Court, poking its nose where it has no Constitutional authority. There are times when the death penalty is appropriate in rape cases; it should not be taken off the table but should be left on the menu of options available to a jury.

Doesn't the 10th Amendment mean *anything* at all anymore?

Impeach Foreign Judges
It was bad enough when SCOTUS stretched interpretations under stare decisis for creping new interpretations. When they started quoting “evolving standards” and world opinion they crossed a line. The ONLY thing they should be quoting is the Constitution. Stare Decisis was only intended for the common law since there was no written law. Where written law exists stare decisis should have no sway. Where a written Constitution exists foreign law should stay foreign. Any judge who quotes foreign law on a ruling with regard to the U.S. should be immediately impeached as incompetent.

With regard to the death penalty the Constitution is clear and it takes these major contortions to muddy it up. The Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment which was intended to be such things as “drawing and quartering”. This is supported by the section that clearly states that capital punishment is allowed after “due process” of law.

Evolving away from barbarism
Death penalty is barbaric and fortunately many Americans are evolving their sense of justice to agree. No civilized nation does this any more. Too many folks confuse emotional revenge with justice.

Can you replace one life...
...by taking another?

Vengeance is mine, sayeth Mike...

All of you anti-death penalty people
can argue all you want but the text is clear and the will of the people is clear. The death penalty is supported by both.

As for being for "revenge" that is another slogan that comes only from you people. Evidence has proven that use of the death penalty does in fact deter crime. And not only that, I have never seen anyone in history who once executed went out and committed any more crimes.

Go Get 'em Vic!
Why do all these liberals stay up all night hitting "refresh" so that they can post to the beginning of a thread from a well-known conservative commentator?

You wouldn't find any self-respecting conservative lurking over at MoveOn. I just don't get it. Do you, Vic? (I'm quite serious, actually. Why do they waste their time over here?)

Anyway, cheers, and thanks for keeping the libs at bay!

Norman
LOL, it is funny isn't it. I have a strange sleep schedule due to many years of shift work so I'm early to bed and early to rise as BF would say.

Thank you God for keeping Vic awake
And thank you Vic for your comments.

I still say, if you believe the death penalty is too harsh and the perp should be freed - make up your spare room. Most of the libs choke on that.

Child rape is especially horrendous because it damages a child for life. No matter what counseling they get.

child rape
I concur professor. In many third world
countries they have this one right. If caught and convected of child rape, They are shot, fast,efficient and cost effective. No lengthy
appeals process. Guess what? very few child rapes. Since the 50's this permissive society experiment has failed. That said, the liberals of that day were concerned with peoples rights more that ruling the world better. Now it appears their moving left of socialism and communism. Great article it should be posted on the front page of every college and liberal newspaper in the country. ahzman/icu

Justa Thought Here
Thanks

Law Review topic
This issue was our topic for our law review competition. And I couldn't agree with Mike more.

Why not Castration ?
What's wrong with you all ? Long jail terms are enormously expensive to taxpayers and killing someone for rape might be a little harsh in some instances. Simple castration is the logical anwser...

It is more than the individual crime
What most people are missing is that the punishment is not just about criminal A and victim B. If that were so, then we could solve a lot of our criminal backlog by mediation.

Punishment is a statement of what the society as a whole considers its values and what should be protected. Punishments are, in addition to getting the bad guy off the street, intended to signal to all other potential bad guys that there is a cost to their evil activities.

In a earlier benighted time, when the virtue and safety of the females in our society were a high priority, we executed those who raped and violated society's standards. But today, because of all the "evolving" standards and feminist political maneuvering, we no longer believe in protecting virtue. Sad.

Vic
>All of you anti-death penalty people can argue all you want but the text is clear and the will of the people is clear. The death penalty is supported by both.<

And the old testament, another pretty clear text, commands death for non-believers and adulterers too. Why don’t we have that?

>As for being for "revenge" that is another slogan that comes only from you people. <

Because that is exactly what it is. The death penalty ‘solves the problem’ for only one party, and it invents the problem of the state advocating killing as a way of solving a problem. Would you not say a child rapist is severely mentally ill? Do you think it is right to execute the insane? No question that the victim has suffered severely and probably permanently, and the feeling of revenge runs very high. Is revenge the best response? Should we not try to fix broken people? Is more killing the answer to killing and maiming?

>Evidence has proven that use of the death penalty does in fact deter crime. <

You don’t cite that evidence I note. Could that be because you imagine it?

>And not only that, I have never seen anyone in history who once executed went out and committed any more crimes.<

Sure. Isn’t that avoiding the ethical issue, though?

Stuart

Egon
Why not? Because castration does not prevent the commission of further heinous crimes. Rape always contains an element of sadism, which can be expressed other than with the usual tools of rape.

daderdog
>Punishment is a statement of what the society as a whole considers its values and what should be protected. Punishments are, in addition to getting the bad guy off the street, intended to signal to all other potential bad guys that there is a cost to their evil activities.<

So you advocate the most effective signal, whatever it might be. Are you aware that the death penalty is no deterrent, and in fact could mean more rapes end in murder?

What does the evidence actually say is the best deterrent?

Stuart

Stu
The way to reflect "evolving standards" is through the ballot box, not through the courts. If the people wish to eliminate execution they will vote or urge their representatives to vote to eliminate it. The will of the majority does hold sway here because there is NO Constitutionally protected right to eliminate the death penalty.

It does not matter what MY opinion on executing child rapists is, it matter what the opinion of the voters is.

And BTW, anyone who commits murder can be said to be insane to some degree. It's a good thing that the law on the insanety plea doesn't work that way. All it looks at is the ability to tell right from wrong.

Stu
BTW, people who have studied murder rate vs the execution rate have shown that as the execution rate goes up, the murder rate goes down. Based on that one could say there is strong evidence that it does work as a deterrent. And as I said earlier, executed murders do not commit murder again.

Ask Prager
Dennis Prager is an observant Orthodox Jew who reads Hebrew better than many of us read English. I mean ANCIENT Hebrew, the language of Moses and the Prophets. He made two great points on his show before being rousted off the NYC airwaves.

First of all, there is NO SUCH COMMANDMENT as "Thou Shall Not Kill". The wording in the original Hebrew is "Thou shall do no murder". Hebrew was and is a very precise language. Murder in their terms means only one thing: the unlawful and unjust taking of a HUMAN life (just to tweak the PeTA freaks).

The Israelites understood the difference between executing a murderer, traitor or a proven rapist and killing somebody because you thought it would be better if he disappeared.

Second the Mosaic "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is NOT meant to render us all blind and toothless. Some pseudointellectual dweeb spouted that a long time ago and the Left will not let go of it. All that means is that the punishment (whatever it is) should be commensurate with the crime. Neither excessively lenient nor excessively harsh.

That said. Fry the killers and hang the rapists.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Stu
Your "arguments" are are puerile and naive. History shows that draconian punishments are effective where ever established. This is not to say there is not a grim downside, but they work. Theft and adultery are much much lower under sharia law which provides draconian punishments. Hitler's Germany, ancient Sparta are other examples. Singapore is clean and beautiful because of harsh punishment for offenses deemed trivial here. If drunk driving were punished by death, it would cease.

DANGER DANGER DANGER
Before we break out the rope to go hang rapists, one needs to consider...

Rape has very high levels of false accusations. The DOJ put out a report that approximatly 20% to 30% of rapes case that went to trial and gained convictions were the result of false accusations. You might be able to find the report on the DOJ website by searching key words like: Barry Schek, the innocence project, rape false accusations...

When handing out harsh penalties, one needs to evaluate the level of confidence we have in the accusation and conviction process.

Rape cases are highly emotional and political events with high error rates.

Wrat Wrangler
Not only does it say words to the effect that "thou shall do no murder" but the entire 10 commandment thing is bogus from a Jewish perspective.

I have often wondered how we got the interpretation that we did. That would make another interesting research project.

http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm

lowered threshold of evidence
Over the last 30 years various Women's Advocacy groups have managed to enact laws lowering the threshold of evidence to convict an alledeged rape/ abuse of and other laws preventing the accused from even defending themelves.

One perfect excample is the Violence Against Women's Act that allows foreign women immigrants sponsored by an American husband to file abuse charges against her US citizen husband "without their husband's knowlwedge or consent". An immigrant woman(often a scammer)simply fills out an I- 360 form which gets processed at the USCIS immigrant Service Center
and there is a secret hearing held and the accused male citizen is not allowed to defend himself nor is USCIS allowed to notify the accused that his wife has filed rape and abuse charges. Most of these so called abuse cases are nothing more than a green card scam where the accused immigrant woman files charges "as a battered spouse" in return for afre green card. She gets a green card while the innocent American citizen gets a Federal file for life and in the future could be executed for a crime he didn't commit.

The important point to remember is that over the past 30 years the threshold of evidence required to convict a rapist has been lowered to the point where some of these so- called "convicted" rapists may actually be innocent and now they will be put to death.
Hmm...


JohnnyP
I saw a number at one location that said 60% of all rape accusations were false.

Egon.....
Rape is not so much about sex as it is aggression and domination. While castration is a great idea, it doesn't solve the problem of the warped criminal continuing to use superior strength to injure, even kill, people in other ways.

With the technology and DNA evidence now available, and much more to come, those found guilty with irrefutable scientific evidence should get Judge Roy Bean justice, e.g., "Guilty! Put him on a horse and hang him so we can open the bar again!" Otherwise, life without parole.

RAPE
As a libertarian I believe that victims should recieve restitution for crimes perpetrated against them. The victim may not know what restitution is needed for many years, as in post traumatic stress, so, the perpetrator should be held for as many years as his restitution might be needed. What constitutes restitution should be decided by the victim and, or, family. As an example I might find that restitution for the rape of my loved one to be the donation of organs to those in need. I would be happy to allow the perpetrator his right to life with one eye, one kidney, half a liver, one leg, one arm, no testicles and in a state of semi anemia from regular blood donation.

Clik

State and victims rights
…feds need to butt out! Punishment should be left to state law and victim(s), with consideration for public protection.

united states wrold leader
once again the unitd states takes the lead on an important moral issue. shall we kill rapists? as it is withkilling iraquis, refusing to sing the land mine treaty, refusing to sigh the cluster bonb treaty, and numerous other activities the united states stands virtually alone in the matter of execution of prisoners. "nobody really pays any attention to it anymore, except when a case appears before the Supreme Court. than the blood lust rises and we go back to what we have always been, creatures unable to control our baser instinc
the article mentions the fact that executing rapists and murderers would never have bothered our founding fathers. so what thats a really stupid arguement. in england ate that tiem they wer exectutin pickpockets. you want to go back that far??
the simple fact of the matter is that no useful behavior can be proven to change because of execution, whereas you can make a good case for violence breeding violence when the state sanctions it. the problem basically is twofold. if we stop executions we dont get to kill as many african americans as we would like to
and keeping them alive hurts us un the pocketbook.

MRCMRC
keep spouting those lies and strawmen arguments.

A Modest Proposal...
Child RAPE, Or Aggravated Rape.

Please, you leftist commies, do not try to obfuscate this issue with Statutory rape. You ONLY demonstrate your ignorance and stupidity.


Once the crime has been decided, using multiple eyewitnesses or DNA proof...

Administer a 12 Gauge emasculation, immediately.

Pease do not be cruel, but be considerate. Administer first aid, equal to what the victim received from the perpetrator.

i.e. = Nothing.

Well, O.K., throw a towel at the slime, and let him wipe up the gore.

Next phase... Allow him to contemplate his heinous crime, for 7 days, and then Hang him, in public, with a 'Dirty' rope.

Yes! I do understand, that many of you who know me, will think I am getting soft in my old age.

Ah, youngin's, someday, you will understand the wisdom of the elders.

I agree with ...
Alan Keyes in his argument that some crimes are so heineous that there is no punishment we have the ability to inflict, so the only option left to us is to send the criminal to the one being that can inflict adequate punishment ... God. Now, if you do not believe in God, then you should believe in the finality of death, so this person who is obviously suffering should be removed from imparting that suffering on those of us who are not now suffering.

Executing child rapists
I may be the biggest supporter of the death penalty in the country. I've written about it for both The Weekly Standard and National Review. But on this issue I have to disagree.

The purpose of the death penalty should be to draw a bright red line between murder and other felonies. The intent is to keep the criminal from MURDERING THE VICTIM, who is usually the principle witness to the crime. Robbery and rape already carry prison sentences. If the penalty for murdering the victim is just more jail time after that, then the criminal has very little DISincentive for killing the victim, whose alerting the police and testifying against him are likely to be the principle factor in his capture and conviction.

But the same logic works for RAISING the penalty for rape or robbery. If we start executing rapists, then the rapist has every incentive to murder the victim, since there is no difference in the penalty. The important thing is to create a DIFFERENTIAL between homicidal and non-homicidal offenses. You have to have a QUALITATIVELY different punishment to make an impression in the criminal's mind. As strong as the impulse may be to execute heinous criminals such as child rapists, the end result is likely to be putting the victims at greater risk

Bill Tucker
I too am not real strong on executing rapists but by the same token I do not believe that the SCOTUS has the authority to come in tell the States that elected officials can not legislate this either.

At least they should not be able to come in and do it under "cruel and unusual punishment", "evolving standards", or "foreign law".

Craftyone
Craftyone, I do like your idea of punishment left to the family, as it would have been in olden times, BUT...

In today's world, just think. How many families, actually blame the VICTIM?

I posit, it is the majority. She, or the child, was NOT wearing the 'burkha'.

Doomed! Guilty! DEATH BY STONING!

I am an olde phart. I have seen drastic changes in morals, society and public discourse.

My only conclusion is that we are nearing the 'END OF TIMES'.

I Truly wish it were otherwise.




Correct, Bill
How many children will have additional eyewitnesses to their suffering unless a video is made? DNA here is the key, and for especially young children (for whom there is no assumption of consent) one can feel that there is no punishment that can make up for the loss of innocence. However, do you remember the case in which the perp buried the little girl alive to avoid the cops when they were searching for her? Parents will have little hope of finding their kidnapped children alive if we reinstate the death penalty for their abusers. I am all in favor, however, of HARD time that involves no TV or free college courses, harsh weather conditions, repetitive physical labor, and a life without parole sentence.

Punishment
It's not about deterrence. It's about punishment. The man should be executed and removed as the stain that he is (after proper due process, of course). Each case should be considered on its own merits. Sometimes the punishment fits. Blanket statements in support of execution are no more logical than blanket policies which exclude execution.

Ratas y Ratones
Hey, I just wanted to see if you were interested in coming to the chatroom and partaking of conversation there.

Hey, SNAFU!
Doesn't the 10th Amendment mean anything at all anymore?!? Nice rhetorical question. No, and what a shame it is.
With each passing year it means less and less.
Of course the entire Bill of Rights is constantly under assault anyway.

Exactly, Vic, impeach any American judge who cites foreign law or international opinion! More of us agree on that than the judiciary wants to acknowledge.
Craftyone, I agree that the punishment should be meted out by the family. Immediately, no appeal. Restitution is fine in the case of theft, etc. But there are several instances where no amount of money can make someone whole. The crime cannot be undone.
A perp won't ever do it again if he's dead.
Revenge? Don't be childish. Protect the rest of civil society from bad people? Yes, and it is especially incumbent upon us to protect children. If that means executing child rapists, then so be it.

Johnny
Following your loigic then we shouldn't prosecute rape charges because they might be falsely made? If that happens, we best run for the hills and our 2nd ammendment protected guns.

Getting rid of the evil among us...
The death penalty is not cruel, nor is it unusual. The method should be efficient, not slow.

Castration would be cruel and unusual, especially done with a firearm.

Castration would not necessarily inhibit the perp, because other tools of assault could be used.

Yes, rape accusations are really high, but the execution of those convicted of particularly heinous rapes is the issue. Usually, the process involved in getting to the actual execution is very involved and includes many appeals.

Regrettably, there are cases where the innocent are convicted. That is not an indictment of the process, but an acknowledgement that the process usually works.

Bill Tucker
Your reasoning is flawed.

If the penalty for murder is death, and that penalty will be carried out, people will hesitate to commit murder because they know the "final" punishment they receive.

By the same token, if the penalty for rape is death, then a would be rapist will hesitate to commit the act of rape, because he does not want to die.

That being said, I think if rape were punishable by death, then the definition of rape needs to be scrutinized and possibly cleaned up.

Rape should not be the name of the offense for a 19 year old who has consensual sex with a 17 year old.

Rape should only be applied to non-consensual, forced sex, or by sex that is clearly pedophilic in nature, i.e., involving someone, say, 21 or more years older than a legal minor, for example, or two teenagers having sex with a five year difference or more between the two. That is an issue open to debate as far as the age difference, but I don't think that two teenagers within a year or two of each other having consensual sex should qualify as rape of any kind. I am not saying I agree with premarital sex like that, only that to call such an act rape or pedophilia is wrong.

The Victim 25 Years Later
The reaction of the law to defer punishment for decades for such crimes allows the criminal more rights than the victim. Many crimes go unreported because of this deferred justice. The victims damage to sexual self-esteem leads to drug abuse, prositution, and suicide. We wonder why we have so many problems in our society but we fail to protect our future mothers. In the case above there would have been two less victims.

Bill
Your logic gives the impression that murder is a premeditated controlled act and rape is some uncontrolled instinctual behavior that, once committed and contemplated, then the logical criminal will consider his options and choose to murder his victim. Umm, that is a stretch even on a good day. It's punishment, plain and simple. Get over the 'morality' of it all. Follow due process and apply the most appropriate punishment. Period!

Your Point Bill Tucker
Well, I do see your point "i.e. the rapists will then just murder his rape victim so there is no witness since the punishment is the same". That MAY be true, but if I have an understanding of aggrevated rape, it is about aggression and dominance and not sex. So therefore, murdering of the victim is about this agression and the ultimate dominance. I don't think a perpetrator of rape is thinking about anything but brutality and not about his punishment options.

I Am Honored, but...


"Curtal Friar
Location: NC

Reply # 41
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 8:12 AM EST Subject: Ratas y Ratones
Hey, I just wanted to see if you were interested in coming to the chatroom and partaking of conversation there."

~~~

I do suspect, I would enjoy that.

I do, however, have a problem with that.

#1 I work the Vampire shift, and I am not awake during the times, the exciting stuff is happening.

#2 I live, so far back in 'The Sticks' that I cannot get an internet connection for anything other than dial-up, at a price, I can afford.
Ex: One reply, takes 2 to 5 minutes to post. In my opinion, this sucks! (I have to assume you know what this means.)

Heck. The Sun doesn't even come up here, until a half hour after the rest of the State.

Indiana's Motto : "Dead Last In The Nation, And Determined To Stay That Way"

Eny-hoo, I am a fan of yours, and I like your stuff.

OBTW When you are absent, and just post links, you lose a lot of fans.

Post here more often, and you will gain fans!!

Trust me!




Those who
think it is cruel and unusual punishment to execute a rapist have obviously never seen the catastrophic effects on the victims of rapists.

You have never seen the years of terror that the victims suffer any type they have contact with men. Many of them are never able to have a meaningful relationship with a man again.

You have never witnesses the self loathing and humiliation and depression and suicidal tendencies they suffer for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!!!!!!

The monstrous people who commit acts of rape leave behind broken individuals who suffer for the rest of their lives, some dramatically so.

It is an abomination net to let those monsters swing from the end of a rope.

When governments kill...
"Indeed my own state, North Carolina, considered rape – along with murder, burglary, and arson – to be punishable by death for the better part of the 20th Century."

I guess that must give you something to be proud of (along with Andy Griffith).

Seriously, there is way too much flawed logic here, and in the responses above. Too many posters are getting away with "if you have a working death penalty, you get fewer murders - you can look it up!" I'm calling B.S.... if this were the case, then Texas and Florida should have substantially lower death rates than other states by now.

Family determination of punishment?

Letting the Family of the Victim determine the punishment is not a valid solution. Suppose I’m a sharecropper or todays equivalent. Suppose my daughter is taken out and seduced or raped by a prominent socialite politician ending in the drowning of my daughter. The deed is discovered and blasted all over the media The socialite/politicians machine decides that he had better quiet the story down or his political life is over. The politician comes to me, the father, and says there is nothing he can do to bring MaryJo back, but if I will accept his apologies and other considerations to stop hammering at him. These considerations on the QT make my life much more comfortable than it previously was. The politician/socialite then can settle things with the law and things will go back to the way they were before the incident.

No prominent people would be immune from prosecution in too many cases, they would simply buy their way out of jambs with money as they now do by peddling influence.


yes
This might be the best, most well thought out column that Dr. Adams has ever written. If his classroom lectures follow the same logic and reasoning, then he must be an excellent teacher.

Ratas y Ratones
hmm....you could be right....I will have to post more often..

Thanks for responding. I understand the headaches with dialup...Well, if you ever get better connections, it would be great to have you there.

RW
What the statistics show is that if actually execute people the rate goes down. Just having a death penalty means nothing if you are like CA and the people sentenced to death die of old age before execution.

The numbers do show that as executions go up murders go down.

Funny
"The necessity of executing people like Coker should be readily apparent to anyone – regardless of his state of moral “evolution.” The need to execute those who rape our grandchildren – and grandmothers, for that matter – should be just as apparent to the enlightened mind."

That's funny. Mike forgot the "to the enlightened mind in countries where capital punishment is legal because the U.S. is one of only 3 "enlightened" countries out of 160 where capitial punishment is legal."

To *most* of the world capital punishment is immoral under any circumstances whatsoever; and that is the enlightened position.



Death penalty for sex offenders
Great article. It is so refreshing to actually hear someone saying what most of us think but are either unable or are too afraid to say. My wife and I have a ministry that deals with sexual abuse in the church and this evil of raping and molesting chidren is widespread through out our society as well as in the church. If we as a country ever wake up and decide to deal with this issue there will be so many offenders exposed that we will have to have every possible means of punishment at our disposal and that includes the death penalty.

Dale

Rape is the Ultimate Violation
Just as the act of intercourse is the ultimate sharing as the couple becomes "one flesh" the act of rape is the ultimate violation.

Rape was once widely considered "a fate worse than death" and that view has some degree of merit because the mental and spiritual befoulment due that violation clings to and tortures the victim long after any physical effects have healed. That ultimate violation deserves the ultimate price.

While not always applicable to children (see http://olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/arms/stopthem1480.j pg.html and http://olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/arms/defendcountry1 501-2.jpg.html for examples of when it can be), my view is that potential rape victims should prepare themselves to skip the middleman and send those who intend to rape them to explain it to God personally.

When the individual is unable to do so then the state should definitely be ready, able, and willing to do justice to rapists in that fashion.

Atheist Provocateur
Hmm....your definition of enlightened seems to mean:

1. devoid of common sense and any sense of morals

2. Possessing cowardice and unwillingness to make tough decisions, and quieting that lack of strength and conscience by calling oneself enlightened or superior.

In any case, count me out of any of your "enlightened" opinions.

Stu #18
In 1959, convicted killer Caryl Chessman was executed for murder. In the 49 years since his execution, Caryl Chessman has not committed another murder or any other crime. HE WAS PERMANENTLY AND TOTALLY DETERRED!!!

Have you noticed, liberals oppose capital punishment here, but, it's all right for islamofaxcistterroristmurderers to behead innocent victims, just for the fun of it.

Egon,
1. Removing the testicles -- castration as normally practiced -- does not remove the ability to commit rape.

2. Removing both testicles and p*nis still does not remove the ability to commit rape. Rape being more about power than about sex, rapists who are impotent simply substitute the use of foreign objects to achieve penetration and thus fulfill their desire to dominate and humiliate their victim.

Atheist Provocateur writes:
"To *most* of the world capital punishment is immoral under any circumstances whatsoever; and that is the enlightened position."
-----

A.P. inadvertently points out another reason to SUPPORT capital punishment - precisely because the so-called "enlightened" do not.

When the citizens of these "enlightened" countries become U.S. Citizens; live, work & pay taxes here, then their opinions will count for something.

It is these same "enlightened" countries who are fast becoming socialist havens and have a serious case of "moral relativism".

We would be wise to ignore them at all costs.

BS
83 countries have the death penalty vs 76 that have eliminated it.

And that isn't the issue. The issue is SCOTUS telling the State they can not legislate it based on BS logic like you libs like to pump out with your daily pack of lies.

It Seems Funny
that conservatives have a near hysterical desire to take every possible opportunity to kill other people.


Oh and BTW
Most conservatives could GAS what the commies in those other nations think.

RW
"Indeed my own state, North Carolina, considered rape – along with murder, burglary, and arson – to be punishable by death for the better part of the 20th Century."

"I guess that must give you something to be proud of (along with Andy Griffith)."

Why am I not surprised at your response. Lets just let all the murderers and rapists go. I'm all for that. Then we can take care of the scum on our own. And not you stinkin Libs!

spudmomof6,
If you think that there is any significant hope of rescue for a child kidnapped for sexual purposes then you are dangerously naive. Most of those poor innocents are dead by the time the family knows they're missing. The kill is part of the perversion itself, not mere prudential disposal of a potential witness.

The purpose of the death penalty, or any other criminal penalty for that matter, is threefold:

#1 -- Justice. That the criminal receive the just penalty for the outrage inflicted on the victim.

#2 -- Drawing the bright line on society's standards. When murders and rapists are executed it is a clear and unmistakable signal that society values each, individual life and that devaluing individual life will not be tolerated.

#3 -- The prevention of future crimes. First, the executed rapist will rape no more. Those contemplating rape will know that they face death if caught and some portion of them will think twice.

false forced choice
DocTony
Location: IL

Reply # 43
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 8:19 AM EST Subject: Johnny
Following your loigic then we shouldn't prosecute rape charges because they might be falsely made? If that happens, we best run for the hills and our 2nd ammendment protected guns.

****
Don’t feel bad… quite a few people jump to incorrect conclusions when discussing rape and the criminal justice system… I guess the emotions involved cloud people’s thinking.

Some of the basic principles in our justice system are:
-The punishment should fit the crime
-The severity of punishment should be inversely related to the error rate of the process
-Criminals should be prosecuted
-The innocent should go free

The above items are frequently in competition with each other.

There are several options at hand in dealing with the criminal justice system’s bad record in dealing with rape.

Here are some options
1) Review the investigation, charging, and court procedures process to reduce the rate of false charging and convictions
2) Reduce the penalties to reflect the high rate of system failure
3) People change their behavior so as to reduce their exposure to rape and or accusations of rape.
4) etc

DocTony – do you think our criminal justice system should ignore failures of the system and put people away or kill them for the heck of it?



Funny
Just a thought, off the top of my head, as I read Atheist Provocateur. I suspect that in many of the alleged 'enlightened countries, they have more people killed in riots when the election, or the soccer game doesn't go their way than we would execute here (USA).
We allow the abortion of an unborn child if it is the product of rape. The child has committed no crime. Why should we not execute the perpetrator of the crime?

The death penality is valid in some
cases, BUT it is important for us to KEEP RELIGION AND THE BIBLE OUT OF THE EQUATION.

Don't bring in supernaturalism & "faith" by quoting the Bible to make your point. Let's stick to democracy & rationaliam to make our points, like men of the Enlightenment.

scary
Vic
Location: SC

Reply # 28
Date: Jun 2, 2008 - 6:48 AM EST JohnnyP
I saw a number at one location that said 60% of all rape accusations were false.

*****

I have seen those stats also. It is some scary stuff.

Rape is so politically and emotionally charged - our justice system needs to take a step back and review things rationally.

I think this area of the justice system is BADLY broken.

I guess I expect
too much. There are those who will take advantage in any situation re: money or getting rid of a child you think has shamed the family, but I am all for just punishment of the crime. Putting someone in prison just doesn't cut it when their sentence is 15 years and they are out in 2.

There will always be injustice in the justice system, unfortunatly. I am talking about serious punishment for those who are guilty beyond a doubt.

Ratas, I'm an olde phart too so I know of what you speak but, so far, we are not under the islamic justice system. God protect us if we ever go that road.

Again, I say, these are decisions that should be left to each state. While drawing and quartering may be cruel, what do you call just punishment for the pervert that buried the little girl alive after sexually assaulting her? An even greater punishment should be reserved for the adults that KNEW what he had done and didn't do anything to help that child. To my way of thinking, they deserved punishment FAR greater than the pervert.

Deterence
Can you end murder by executing those who commit murder?
Can you end thievery by removing the hand of a convicted thief?
Can you end adultery by stoning those caught in the act of adultery?
Can you end mischief by a child by spanking them when the misbehave?
The answer is obviously, "NO".
BUT, by having and enforcing laws which dictate consequences for ones actions, the person who thinks before they act and whom thinks they may get caught, may choose instead not to break the law. Is this not common sense and truth?
Telling little Johnny that if he intentionally breaks an item he will not be able to sit comfortably for week rather than not get a second scoop of ice cream for dessert will affect how carefully Johnny handles said item.

MRCMRC
In re your post: Jun 2, 2008 - 7:27 AM EST

We don't do text messages here. We use ENGLISH, with complete sentences and at least of minimal attention to spelling and grammar.

(To their credit, this applies even to the muddle-headed liberals who've either been kicked out of MoveOn, or are being paid by Georgie Soros to spoil out party. In their heart of hearts, of course, they feel guilty about not brushing upon their Spanish, so they can welcome the Reconquista. But that's another story entirely . . .)

English is a great language. Lots of people know how to speak, read, and even WRITE it.

Give it a try!

Dissent form the rule of opinion
o It is impossible to argue about this with people who repeatedly do not acknowledge the fact: executions for murder up- murder rate down. The posters (you know who they are) whose arguments and support are given to extending to infinity the life span of convicted murderers are enablers- giving nothing to society but aid and comfort to those who have forfeited it. In states where the penalty is enforced the murder rate goes down; key word: enforced. The point is well made about the number who may well die of old age because of an endless round of appeals or state executives who refuse to enforce the law. New York had the death penalty; but as it is never applied regardless of circumstance, can we say it has a positive deterrence? Or credibility?

o As for the "rest of the world" argument; who cares? I do not see a stream of Americans risking their lives and freedom to go there, and until I do. . . These posters are no different than the robed charlatans to presume to subvert American black letter law with nebulous findings based on precedent which is little more than whimsey and fabrication which has no basis or should have no standing in US jursiprudence. Our laws were fashioned in our legislations by people we elected, not by tribal leaders in some unpronouncable third world toilet.


Dissent from law is opinion
o All that aside, I do not believe in the death penalty for any crime but murder -arson which causes death included. I do believe the other crimes are heinous, but we have reached or overreached by threatening execution for too many crimes. I do believe that the death penalty if applied solely to murder, and carried out in a timely fashion would be a deterrent, especially to crimes in which the criminals choose to murder the witness(es) because there is no additional penalty. I speak from personal experience for this; I worked at a second job as a cashier at a filling station; after I handed over the cash and Lotto tickets (just like the company tells us to do) one of the robbers told the other to "blow him (me) away" so there wouldn't be any witnesses. I was fortunate to be able to shoot my way out- that's another topic- but the lesson is plain: Kill the witnesses with impunity.

Hey I've got an idea
Let's reduce the prison population. We can execute rapists, robbers, armed assailants, burglars, car theives, child molesters, drug dealers, drug buyers, wife beaters, negligent homicide felons, non-negligent homicide felons, 2nd degree murderers, 2nd felony offenders, third strike offenders, and anyone convicted by a jury of their peers of being a nasty individual and a jerk.

Note, I said nasty AND a jerk.

Think of all the money we would save.

Will the Christophobe
The Enlightenment brought about many wonderful advances not merely in technology, but in political and social thought as well. It also brought us the barbarities of the French and Russian Revolutions, and the Iron Chancellor Bismarck who forged Germany into a weapon that would be used to devastating effect by another German Chancellor (this one an Austrian corporal with a funny mustache).

Ideas are powerful things, and like all powerful things needs to be treated with care and discernment. Your anti-Christian obsession is ham-fisted, intellectually unsound, and reactionary. There is a lot more to the equation than you realize, and your simplistic, knee-jerk Christophobia is both ignorant and bigoted.

But then, what me know? Me just "cracker." That what you say.

Right Massah Will?


Norman the Cracker

Royinoslo
Ah but you are wrong, every so called civilized nation does impose the death penalty, however not on the guilty but on the innocent..ever hear of abortion? That's the trouble with the ever so sensitive liberal/left they will move heaven and earth to save a murderer that's been justly tried and condemned but with fight
to keep the so called "right" to kill unjustly the least and most innocent of human beings, the preborn baby. And now they have refined it to include inducing birth, turning the baby, leaving the head in the birth canal, as the baby kicks and flails it's tiny arms, more frantically as it feels the pain of the scissors
puncturing it's neck just beneath the skull, widening it and inserting the suction tube and
not long after the little arms and legs are stilled. Such compassionate and loving beings these liberals are and they prove it every time a murderer is about to die a more compassionate death than the innocent baby they delight in murdering. All for money and convenience.

As usual...wil
The liberals take wording and twist it around to suit their agenda. The phrase "Aggravated Rape" does not include consensual sex, but rape that also includes extenuating circumstances, usually extreme violence, or repeat offenses....
You started out ok, but of course tried to make a case using your own agenda and applying it to something that clearly does not support the facts. Typical Liberal, regardless of your sexual preferences...

IF A SCUMBAG
raped or murdered one of my family members I would be beggin' the court to put him back on the street! He should pray that law enforcement catches him first, and even then, I can still hit a prarie dog at 500 yards!
One trial, one apeal then GONE!!

"Natural Act" ...
I remember a case a few years ago in Minnisota. Two boys raped a girl in the school stair well during class. The judge dismissed all charges stating that 1) the girl brought it on herself by dressing "sexy" to attract the boys. She had been wearing long johns (since it was winter), blue jeans, a shirt, and a sweater. 2) Sex was a "natural act" that all women encountered at one time or another. Therefore the girl was not injured by the act and probably enjoyed it. So the boys were released.

The judge couldn't understand why everyone wanted to get rid of him.

RW
I'm no legal scholar, but doesn't the effectiveness of the death penalty in deterring capital crimes depend on judges who determine sentencing? Texas and Florida have the death penalty, but judges are not obliged to impose it. There are no doubt a lot of anti-death penalty judges in these states who act on their beliefs whenever given the opprtunity. Having a death penalty statute on the books is one thing; actually enforcing it is another. If only one or two rapists and/or murderers are executed every year, that wouldn't be much of a deterrent. If, however, there were a few dozen a month, this might penetrate the consciousness of the would-be perpetrator, and the capital crime rate would go down.

Hey Pablo!
Speaking of poor argumentation, your 10:19 a.m. post contained the following informal logical fallacies:

Slippery Slope
Strawman
Appeal to Ridicule

My suggestion: trade Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" for Copi's "Introduction to Logic." It will do you more good.

Why is it that people like you, who have no idea how to contruct an argument properly, are the first ones to call everyone else stupid?

A puzzle for the ages.

What Georgie Soros is paying you, he's getting robbed.

Say "hi" to the folks at MoveOn (they'll be the ones chained to the desks to your left and right, polluting conservative websites with their inanities--just like you!)

Reply to RW re: BS
I'm no legal scholar, but doesn't the effectiveness of the death penalty in deterring capital crimes depend on judges who determine sentencing? Texas and Florida have the death penalty, but judges are not obliged to impose it. There are no doubt a lot of anti-death penalty judges in these states who act on their beliefs whenever given the opprtunity. Having a death penalty statute on the books is one thing; actually enforcing it is another. If only one or two rapists and/or murderers are executed every year, that wouldn't be much of a deterrent. If, however, there were a few dozen a month, this might penetrate the consciousness of the would-be perpetrator, and the capital crime rate would go down.

PUNISHMENT SHOULD FIT CRIME

.....MIKE ...

.....I would have all rapists neutered and then incarcerated in a cell with a lifer named Bruno .....COLOSSUS

pablow st crud
reply #78.

Now you finally said something that made sense. See, if you stick around here long enough, there is hope for you. Of course, you would not look like such a fool if you watched, and NOT typed.

The Paramount Purpose
Dear Professor Adams:

We continue to pay a heavy price for the Earl Warren court, don't we? The ugly facts of his own personal life seemed to reflect on his decisions!

When it comes to the rape of a grown woman or the carnal knowledge of one adolescent with another, there can be allowances made for a penalty short of death or life imprisonment... depending on circumstances. Still, it is a terrible crime. A man is naturally responsible for the safety and welfare of any woman in his company and under any circumstances. It's what men are for.

But when the crime of rape and murder extends to children, it becomes the ultimate crime of all. It is a crime against God and the very basic nature of Mankind. Anyone capable of committing such deeds are capable of any lesser crime at all... and all ARE lesser. Child killers and molestors are not only the worst of all deviants, but by that very fact the most irredeemable.

The death penalty is the only practical solution. The physical safety and spiritual health of our children is paramount above all else. It's what civilization itself is all about.

Will, you idiot!
There's a difference between statutory rape and aggravated rape. Grow a brain then look it up, you dope.

Rape
Rape is a horrible crime. Citizens of a state through their legislatures should select the approriate punishment. Courts should be very deferential to legislatures and should only intervene in situations where their is fundamental unfairness in the law. Protections should be put in place to insure that we don't have a Duke Lacross Team situation.

I am not sure if the death penalty is an effective deterrant.

pablo st. cruz
Re: Your 10:19 AM EST post.

I've got a better idea.

Let's not execute these people. Let's parole them to live with leftists/liberals, who can then apply their logic and world knowledge upon these unfortunates and rehabilitate them.

Old Testament
Can Stu or anyone else tell me where the Old Testament advocates death for non-believers? I remember Elijah confronting the priests of Ba'al, and they got the sword, but Ba'alism was all about infant sacrifice. This is more than a mere theological difference of opinion. Other instances,anyone?

Those that are against
the death penalty most likely never saw a victim try to piece their lives back together after such brutality. I have and it's heart breaking.

I dare you to witness the violantly lost innocense of sweet little girl. Watch her personality completely change, witness the several attempted suicides, the devaluation of her self, the years and years of therapy doing little good. Witness that life of promise become a train wreck. While the multiple offender gets 2 years in prison to come out and do it again to another innocent child. Do you know what that little victim thinks when her perp was sentenced so leniently?...that it must not be a big deal. That the perps life must be of more value. That she must be absolutely worthless.

Taking the death penalty off the table only saves 1 life at the cost of hundreds of others and does more destruction to the victim.

Fry the SOB, fry him twice...and send a message to the victim that she is valuable and worthwhile. Send a message to would be offenders that they're as good as dead should they even try it once.

One Problem
If the death penalty were applied to rape,this would create incentives for rapists to murder their victims.

Difficult question - Part I
First of all, the Supreme Court has every right to overturn a punishment imposed by one of the states if it is deemd cruel and unusual. If ALabama decided to execute a 12 year old for shoplifting a pack of gum, no one can possibly claim that the state's will shouldn't be opposed and overturned. Yes, that is a hyperbolic example but it also precisely illustrates the ridiculousness of the argument made so popular these days that states should be able to do literally ANYTHING without federal intrusion.
Secondly, this would be the first capital offense since the death penalty was reinstated that punishes something other than a death related to criminal conduct. No one needs to reiterate just how traumatic and life-altering a rape can be to a person, especially the young, but the simple fact is that they are still alive at the end of it and capable of attempting to put their life back together. MANY other crimes are violative, traumatic and life-changing, yet they are not seriously considered for elevation to a capital offense. If I attempt to kill another person, but only paralyze him or leave him in a coma, can it not be said his life has altered in just about every conceivable way and in traumatic fashion? So by the "rape is horrible" logic, shouldn't I be executed for that crime too? The problem is, no state executes attempted murderers, no matter the condition of the victim.

Difficult question - Part II
Thirdly, this new punishment for child rape DOES provide an incentive for rapists to murder their victims in order to lessen their chances of being caught or convicted. The vast majority of pathological rapists (not 18 year old college students date raping each other) are well-organized and cautious, even if their style of rape is violent (i know, ALL rape is "violent"). Many on here seem to be under the impression that unplanned rapes of opportunity are the norm, and they most certainly are not, even in the case of children. If you don't think that most rapists would start considering killing their victim while they plan their crime, then you are not arguing from an informed position, merely an emotional one.
Fourthly, the politicization of rape and crimes against children provides a fertile environment for bad laws to be written on the subjects. Many have touched on the high rates of false accusation and conviction of rapists, and that is clearly one of the negative consequences of this new overzealous crusade to combat these crimes. No longer are defendants able to fully confront their accusers, whether children (who are VERY unreliable witnesses) or adults, and both crimes carry the highest connotation of guilt until innocence is proven. So far the modern death penalty has been amazingly lucky in not executing someone that has later been proven innocent, but adding rape to the list will end that infallibility in short order. That, in turn, will lead to end of the death penalty altogether.

Difficult question - Part III
And lastly, we are also caught in between the notion that we should not execute the mentally ill and the slippery slope of equating ALL criminal activity in SOME way to mental defect. The days of large state run mental institutions are past, so how do we deal with those who are "criminally insane"? Do they really belong in a regular prison? I also think there is some merit to the argument that violent CHILD (5 year olds, not 15 year olds) rapists in a lot of cases are probably not competent enough to be held criminally responsible in the way that a non-violent (i know, all rape is "violent") rapist of pubescent teens or adults. The level or sadism as well as the sexualization of a person that is clearly non-sexual to me speaks to quite a seperation from reality. That's certainly just my opinion, and all are free to disagree.
In closing, I do not disagree that rape is one of the worst crimes there is especially when a child is involved, I just believe that the death penalty should only be applied to THE worst, taking someone's life. Add in the problems associated with the prosecution of a rape case as well as political grandstanding involved in the tightening of laws in order to "get tough", and to me there is no doubt that such laws are poorly considered and ultimately going to do more harm than good.

Who?
Vic! Right, most Americans could GAS about what 'enlightened' people in 'enlightened' countries think. These countries are full of people who will not defend themselves from threats, whether from sources foreign or domestic. So we should heed their opinions?
Speaking for myself, I only listen to the opinions of someone who has earned my respect. Otherwise the person's opinion means to me exactly nothing.

Michael
Who cares? The Old Testament is immaterial. Written by cultish, end-of-times believing (eschatological) nomadic Jews near the Dead Sea 2 and a half millenia ago. Their books were as much God Word as "Madame Bovary" or Tony Kushner's "Angels in America" or Nancy Pelosi's addresses to Congress.

In this sense, everything can be seen as an extension of God's Word: Churches. Swap meets. Gay Pride Parades. Taco Bell. It's ALL God's handiwork!

putwaffe
The severity of the punishment in relation to the crime committed has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether the punishment was "cruel and unusual". The term you are looking for is “excessive” or “draconian”.

That is why the SCOTUS does not have the authority to override the State because the Constitution does NOT prohibit “excessive” punishment.

Amen Brother!
Though therapists and psychiatrists have tried over and over, Rapists, like serial killers, cannot be reformed. They like the thrill of the thing more than freedom. Yes Toto, they will rape and or kill in prison as well. There are 2 options here. 1. put them in a room alone, and bring them meals, or kill them dead. Either option will ensure that they will not hurt or corrupt another life! I personally prefer the latter.
Our courts have enough innocent blood on their hands from releasing such people back into society, As evidenced by the continual news stories on released rapists, destroying lives. We really should not subject our elders, women, and children to such savagery!

MarkinVA
Actualy what I said was most conservatives could GAS. It appears that most liberals worship the opinions of socialist Europeans except when they endorse Nuclear Power like France.

Vic
Actually, it has been understood (in past Court decisions) to include "excessive". It was the same reasoning that was the basis the overturning of the federal sentencing guidelines of crack vs. cocaine crimes. You are free to interpret your pocket constitution as literally as you desire, but the federal courts have established for some time that severely excessive punishment IS included with cruel and unusual.

Mike, I'm disappointed that you ...
... used a political argument for this moral issue. You often argue as a moral person, and I admire you for it, so why not argue as a moral person regarding the death penalty.

Oh, I forgot. You are a criminal justice professor.

We then let me argue as a citizen against this U.S. criminal justice penalty (that I oppose on moral grounds) because it involves the expenditure of a significant amount of taxpayer funds for no reduction is serious crime. The taxpayers are subsidizing "tough on crime" politicians, and getting nothing for their money because -

- The death penalty is not cost effective. For example, enforcing the death penalty costs Florida $51 million a year above what it would cost to punish all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole.
- A majority of the American people support life without parole as an alternative to the death penalty. The May 2006 Gallup Poll found that when respondents are given the choice of life without parole as an alternate sentencing option, more choose life without parole (48%) than the death penalty (47%).
- The death penalty does not deter serious crime. Consistent with previous years, the 2006 FBI Uniform Crime Report showed that although South accounts for over 80% of executions, the South had the highest murder rate. However, although the Northeast had less than 1% of all executions, it had the lowest murder rate.

puftwaffe
"If you don't think that most rapists would start considering killing their victim while they plan their crime, then you are not arguing from an informed position, merely an emotional one."

I believe I'm a lot more informed than you on this subject and can say with absolute certainty that these victims would of preferred not to live. Are you aware just how many try to take their own lives after such an incident? Evan as young as 8 years old? Allowing their aggressor to live free in a few years, or a few months does little to allow that child to live free as she will be filled with fear, insecurity, confusion, and believe she is absolutely worthless.

You stating that the death penalty will encourage rapists (child rapists) to kill their victim is sheer speculation. History has proven that the death penalty decreases crime by no small measure. Why is crime so rampant now? Because there are few deterants.

poot-waffle
No, the past liberal courts have made that interpretation. The current court is likely NOT to. And besides that, anyone with even half of a brain and the ability to read plain ENGLISH can see the difference.

But of course in today's liberal Orwellian Newspeak up is down, black is white, and war is peace.

Ron
I haven’t noticed anything of the kind. While there has been some comments opposing capital punishment, I have never seen a comment saying it’s all right for “islamofaxcistterroristmurderers” to behead innocent victims, just for the fun of it.

Vic-Ssgt-Primus-Ratas-CFriar
OK, on three, let’s recite the Liberal Excuses on this matter:

WAAA! It’s not his fault, he came from a broken home!
WAAA! It’s not his fault, he was an abused child!
WAAA! It’s not his fault, he was temporarily insane!
WAAA!
WAAA!
WAAA!

Karufe
How many rape victims try to take their own lives?

A little "enlightened" perspective.
Here's a little Republican, right wing "enlightened" perspective on killing.

Kill them!

----------------------------

During a videoconference with his national security team and generals, Sanchez writes, Bush launched into what he described as a "confused" pep talk:

"Kick a**!" he quotes the president as saying. "If somebody tries to stop the march to democracy, we will seek them out and kill them! We must be tougher than hell! This Vietnam stuff, this is not even close. It is a mind-set. We can't send that message. It's an excuse to prepare us for withdrawal."

"There is a series of moments and this is one of them. Our will is being tested, but we are resolute. We have a better way. Stay strong! Stay the course! Kill them! Be confident! Prevail! We are going to wipe them out! We are not blinking!"

A White House spokesman had no comment.

pablo st. cruz
"...and anyone convicted by a jury of their peers of being a nasty individual and a jerk."

Hmmm.... maybe we could then split up SissyboySGT's Curdled Friar's and Vic's life insurance?

Georgetwin
Waaaa, the death penalty is mean. LOL, my problem with the death penalty is that it takes too long to execute them.

It should be like the old days where the juries brought a rope with them to the trial.....just in case.

Atheist Provocateur
So appeasing murderers is the enlightened position?

Explain what is so good about enlightenment.

The day
That we start shooting all violent rapists is the day that you see the numbers go down. People who commit acts like that do not stop, they must be removed from our civilization forever. Life in prison is not being removed from civilization, considering the normal prisoners in there for drug possession and non heinous crimes. Death is the only sure way.

Quick edit - strike one!
You wrote, "This strange logic was supplemented with some rather disturbing statements about the severity of rape relative to murder."

My edit would have read, "Some rather disturbing statements about the severity of rape relative to murder supplemented this strange logic." My version is SHORTER too, and you know what is said about brevity, right?

Rape, Execution, Supreme Court
Vic, correct, a justice who cites foreign courts or law should be impeached, removed from office and have their law license permanently revoked.

Rape is a horrible crime and should be punished appropriately. A serial rapist should be executed. The fellow found innocent after a few years because of DNA testing and poor prosecution should not have to fear for execution. DNA evidence should be a mandatory tool.

The female who lies and leads to the conviction on an innocent man (or visa versa), should do time for perjury.

Vic
In plain english, I (along with the courts) consider the punishment of DEATH for a crime not worthy of being a capital offense to be BOTH cruel and unusual. As I said, you are free to be as narrow in your interpretation as you desire, but that has no bearing on the Supreme Court's continued assertion that grossly excessive punishment can be the sole basis for seeking judicial relief. And you are dreaming if you think that the swing votes on this current court uphold death for rape, even that of a child.

Quick edit - strike three.
You wrote, "As I write this column, just a few short weeks have passed since a 95-year old woman was raped in the upstairs bedroom of her home in downtown Wilmington, North Carolina."

My edit would have read, "As my hands type this column, just a few short weeks have passed since the rape of a 95-year old woman in the upstairs bedroom of her home in downtown Wilmington, North Carolina."

Mangling of Scripture
There has been a LOT of "creative editing" to both New and Old Testaments. One sticking point is the King James Bible. King James, to curry Divine favor, tried to "improve" on the Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic texts. I used to have Bible which was carefully translated from these original languages. The text varied only slightly but there seemed to be subtle changes in shades of meaning. It was also footnoted to explain terms used in those days that had always seemed odd when translated into English.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Rape is a crime of violence... not sex
"Egon" mentioned the possibility of using castration instead of 'lengthy' prison sentences. That shows to points of misunderstanding of the issue. First, rape is not a sexual crime. It is committed as a crime of violence. Most rapists have difficulty completing the act of intercourse. Their targets are not necessarily 'sexually attractive' (case in point the 95 year old woman and small children - at times even infants). The second point of misunderstanding is the 'lengthy' prison terms. When the average time spent in prison for murder is seven years or less... when child rapists often don't see prison time at all... there is no such thing as 'lengthy' prison sentences. Prisons, they say, are too crowded, and rape isn't always violent enough to make the cut.

Death Penalty and Rape
The burden on the State to convict is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". The burden for the death penalty should be "proof beyond a shadow of a doubt", a more strict consideration, simply because it is such a drastic, irreversible solution.

But given that standard, the death penalty for aggravated rape of children (and the elderly) should be a no-brainer. If there is ANY doubt in the jury's mind, a life penaly can be applied. If there is NO doubt, good riddance to bad (human) rubbish.

Decide the punishment
Some years ago, I was a cop and worked a case that falls within the purview of this discussion. Let me tell you about it, and then you tell me whether or not the death penalty is appropriate. (This is somewhat graphic, so flee if you're squeamish.)

Here's the scenario, in brief: the rapist set up the scene beforehand. He dragged an old mattress into a forest used as a shortcut by children walking from home to elementary school. (There was also a stash of kiddy porn, etc.)

When he struck, he grabbed two girls off the trail, on 12 year old and a 9 year old, and took them to the spot he had prepared. He tied them both and repeatedly raped them. He couldn't penetrate the 9 year old so he used a butcher knife to open her up for easier access. At some point the 12 year old escaped; he chased her and drowned her in a creek. (A couple of other children saw what happened and fled to call police.) He apparently was through so he left; I caught him at the edge of the woods, covered in blood and his clothes in disarray.

At trial, it was disclosed he was a serial rapist. The doctor who treated the 9 year old had to perform a hysterectomy on her; he wept on the stand. So did the nurses who treated her. So did the jurors, who convicted this beast and sentenced him to die for murder and rape. The death sentence for the murder was overturned for some reason that now escapes me. And the death sentence for the rape was vacated because of the Coker decision.

What would have been *your* sentence?

"forget" the Death Penalty
I have no problem eliminating the death penalty for the most heinous crimes. This was often done is in pre 19th century Europe, especially in France. The French simply “forgot” about such criminals. But before you brand me a bleeding heart Lib. first check the French translation of the verb “to forget”, and then check Google on how it was applied in the pre 19th century French penal system. But to “forget” such criminals, we’d have to modify the 8th Amendment in the Bill of Rights re: cruel and unusual punishment and “readjust our moral compass”. Unfortunately this isn’t likely to happen.

dbz77
Of all the questions posed, of all the data given, THIS is what you seek to know?...how many rape victims try to take their own lives? If it were 1, that is 1 too many. But it is a world more than 1. I got your game, you don't want information to self educate, you're here to pick a fight in defense of the indefendable.

You really want the answer? Be proactive. Go to a victims support group. Take your count there.

Curtal Friar
And you have seen self loathing and humiliation and depression and suicidal tendencies rape victims suffer for the rest of their lives?

Georgetwin
good day amigo!

To bad these panty wad libquirts have so much control of the courts. But, I still say, let the murderers and rapists free. We have a ability to remedy the situation!

Remove the perverts - permanently!
Rape is one of the most violent and heinous crimes these satanistic perverts can commit!

It is a deliberate, hateful, evil act that will continue unless the public is protected - correctly - against it. (Too bad the 95 yo grandmother didn't have a gun and the ability to use it!)

As for the attacks on children - their lives will be RUINED for as long as they live. It will NOT "go away" - ever. The children will "pay" for the crime committed against them. Where is the justice there?
The courts MUST do the job of protecting future victims by "permanently removing" the threat to society! (And hopefully discourage others from committing these types of crimes. After all, if one knows that he will no longer "get away with committing crimes, he MAY reconsider!)

Karufe
Whether a victim would choose to live or not says nothing about the appropriateness of death as a penalty for any given crime. So just because a person is disabled or badly disfigured after a car accident and has difficulty coping for the rest of his or her life, we should start executing drunk drivers? And suggesting that more rapists will kill their victims under this law is FAR MORE REASONABLE "speculation" than your assumption that highly organized and careful planning rapists will not consider the new penalty in their plans. It's very apparent that you become too emotional on this subject to discuss it in a rational manner.

Penalty for rapists !
I am sick and tired of you bleeding hearts and your slap on the wrist type on mentality ! Is it totally beyond your feeble comprehension that if the penalty for rape was death, there would be far fewer rape cases, Did you ever consider that the rapist would strongly reconsider his / her actions if this was the case ? No death row, sentence to be carried out on conviction within 24 hours ! Time we got rid of the lily livered do goodies and run this country abiding by our original laws !

Atheist P
and whats your point. You want the enemy to live? Why don't you go over there and t-a-l-k to them! Maybe they'll listen, or maybe they'll lop.

Your head that is!

Death Penalty
Use drugs to induce and maintain a coma, provide food and water intravaneously until death by natural causes.

putwaffe
Well I guess you are illiterate then.

Nothing wrong with citing foreign courts
Remember: We are a GLOBAL village now! We are ALL god's chillun! God does not favor the United States higher than Canada, Turkey, or Sri Lanka! He's got the WHOLE WORLD in his hands!

Yes, he's got the socialist baby and the communist baby and the capitalistic baby and the mormon baby and the gay baby and the aborted baby and the evangelical's baby IN HIS HANDS!

Join hands with our global brothers and sisters! We are collectively struggling to reduce carbon emissions now. Planet in Peril! (as CNN likes to say). Yes, we are all one village now.

careful on psychpathologizing rape
Are they "ill" because they enjoy hurting someone else? IMHO, absolutely not. There are other requirements before one can be considered "mentally ill". This discussion was had in my Psychopathology grad class last semester (say what you want about studying Psychology, but all of us aren't moonbats). It is a difficult differentiation because we, humans, do not like the idea that someone "normal" or NOT "crazy" would commit such an offense. But the fields of psychology/psychiatry and laymen alike need to be careful of lumping all cruel deviants as "crazy". Some are just cruel and amoral, but as soon as we lump together, we get "twinkie" defenses and other "insanities".
So, no, just because someone gets off on aggravated sexual assault of a child, they aren't crazy. They are aware of the wrongness of their actions - hence the attempts to avoid being caught.
Also, the idea that making this a capital crime would increase likelihood of the perp adding murder to the menu is concerning. On the face of it, this is a valid concern. No witnesses - death penalty possible either way...

RW
scuzz and cruz:
"Hmmm.... maybe we could then split up SissyboySGT's Curdled Friar's and Vic's life insurance?"

If you need some cash, I can front you some!

Oh, and please, close your windows. The breeze is moving thru from the Northwest. The stench from MI is eye watering!

Everyone should take note that
Hades has officially become less than 32°F as Scalia, Ginsberg, and Thomas all ruled the same way on a case today.

That should show that even liberal justices sometimes mess up when they become senile and forget how they are supposed rule.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/06- 1005.pdf

Test
TEst, test, test.

So much chivalry...
Rape is a horrible crime- whether committed by a man or a WOMAN. Since so many “chivalrous” minded TH posters are so quick to castrate and/or kill any man even accused of rape (never mind that 50% of all rape accusations prove to be false) let’s apply the same “thinking” elsewhere to an epidemic called “Paternity fraud.”

Fifty percent (50%) of all women commit adultery which results in at least 4% of all wives committing the most despicable act of domestic abuse: paternity fraud (lying about her child’s real father) w/ impunity. Rape is a crime of power/control. When some female commits paternity fraud she says the following to her spouse: all you are is an ambulatory wallet whose life & physical person I will control & exploit for the next 18 years. These husbands are essentially legal financial “peons” for 18-20 years. Imagine giving another person control of your body against your will for 18 YEARS? It costs an average of $250K to raise a child. Men routinely work themselves to death to support their families. They are willing to do so if they have little copies of themselves back home. It’s call “vicarious immortality.” These women are “life rapists” and should be treated accordingly. Hence, Society should sterilize or terminate said “life-rapist” before she victimizes another man. This is unlikely to happen since modern society has a pathological resistance towards holding women accountable for any despicable behavior.

Is it really so surprising that 80% of women recently polled opposed mandatory “paternity tests”?

SSGT
I missed that post.

RW

What is your point there, that is a little too nuanced for me.

BTW, I don't have any life insurance. I dropped it when I retired and did not convert it over because it was too expensive.

So much chivalry...
Rape is a horrible crime- whether committed by a man or a WOMAN. Since so many “chivalrous” minded individuals on TH are so quick to castrate and/or kill any man even accused of rape (never mind that 50% of all rape accusations prove to be false) let’s apply the same “thinking” elsewhere to an epidemic called “Paternity fraud.”

Fifty percent (50%) of all women commit adultery which results in at least 4% of all wives committing the most despicable act of domestic abuse: paternity fraud (lying about her child’s real father) w/ impunity. Rape is a crime of power/control. When some female commits paternity fraud she says the following to her spouse: all you are is an ambulatory wallet whose life & physical person I will control & exploit for the next 18 years. These husbands are essentially legal financial “peons” for 18-20 years. Imagine giving another person control of your body against your will for 18 YEARS? It costs an average of $250K to raise a child. Men routinely work themselves to death to support their families. They are willing to do so if they have little copies of themselves back home. It’s call “vicarious immortality.” These women are “life rapists” and should be treated accordingly. Hence, Society should sterilize or terminate said “life-rapist” before she victimizes another man. This is unlikely to happen since modern society has a pathological resistance towards holding women accountable for any despicable behavior.

Is it really so surprising that 80% of women recently polled opposed mandatory “paternity tests”?

will
"He's got the WHOLE WORLD in his hands!"

Mock as you may mook! You'll find life after death not very pleasant.

AF Study
A U.S. Air Force study, The False Rape Allegation in the Military Community (1983), investigated 556 cases of alleged rape, and found a 60% rate of false rape accusations! As part of the study, women who were found to have made false accusations were asked "Why?"
Motivations Given by the Women Who Acknowledged They Had Made False Accusations of Rape
Reason Percent
Spite or Revenge 20
To compensate for feelings of guilt or shame 20
Thought she might be pregnant 13
To conceal an affair 12
To test husband's love 9
Mental/emotional disorder 9
To avoid personal responsibility 4
Failure to pay, or extortion 4
Thought she might have caught VD 3
Other 6
Total 100
The study found that most false accusations are "instrumental" — they serve a purpose. If the purpose isn't avoiding guilt or getting revenge, it might serve a more focused purpose, for example telling her parents "I didn't just go out and get pregnant - I was raped"; or telling her husband "I didn't have an affair; it wasn't my fault, I was raped."

AF Study
A U.S. Air Force study, The False Rape Allegation in the Military Community (1983), investigated 556 cases of alleged rape, and found a 60% rate of false rape accusations! As part of the study, women who were found to have made false accusations were asked "Why?"
Motivations Given by the Women Who Acknowledged They Had Made False Accusations of Rape
Reason Percent
Spite or Revenge 20
To compensate for feelings of guilt or shame 20
Thought she might be pregnant 13
To conceal an affair 12
To test husband's love 9
Mental/emotional disorder 9
To avoid personal responsibility 4
Failure to pay, or extortion 4
Thought she might have caught VD 3
Other 6
Total 100
The study found that most false accusations are "instrumental" — they serve a purpose. If the purpose isn't avoiding guilt or getting revenge, it might serve a more focused purpose, for example telling her parents "I didn't just go out and get pregnant - I was raped"; or telling her husband "I didn't have an affair; it wasn't my fault, I was raped."

AF Study
A U.S. Air Force study, The False Rape Allegation in the Military Community (1983), investigated 556 cases of alleged rape, and found a 60% rate of false rape accusations! As part of the study, women who were found to have made false accusations were asked "Why?"
Motivations Given by the Women Who Acknowledged They Had Made False Accusations of Rape
Reason Percent
Spite or Revenge 20
To compensate for feelings of guilt or shame 20
Thought she might be pregnant 13
To conceal an affair 12
To test husband's love 9
Mental/emotional disorder 9
To avoid personal responsibility 4
Failure to pay, or extortion 4
Thought she might have caught VD 3
Other 6
Total 100
The study found that most false accusations are "instrumental" — they serve a purpose. If the purpose isn't avoiding guilt or getting revenge, it might serve a more focused purpose, for example telling her parents "I didn't just go out and get pregnant - I was raped"; or telling her husband "I didn't have an affair; it wasn't my fault, I was raped."

to all the libs
The question isn't whether the death penalty deters future crimes by other criminals. It's whether it will deter any future crimes by this criminal. In the Coker case, Coker had escaped from prison where he was serving time for aggravated rape. So life in prison doesn't appear to deter criminals from committing their crime of choice. I would suggest that an executed criminal rarely if ever re-offends. The fact that seems to have been lost in all the discussions on the death penalty is that no penalty will deter a criminal from offending except when they are dead. Some crimes quite rightly are considered so awful that we as a society must insure that a given criminal may not commit them again. That is what the death penalty should be used to enforce.

Vic
I have no idea what the turd was saying there. But if he needs some cash, I'm up for it. I will even deliver it personally!
:-)

Will
On the subject of your 17 yr old experience. Where do we draw the line? 15 yrs old? 12? On the T.V. talk shows there are all kinds of 13-15 yr olds that feel "they want it" to have kids or some other reason. Do they really know they need it? I guarantee you one thing, if a 25 year old messes with my 17 year old, the law better do something or I will. She's got a lot of life to live before she's ready for that.

False Accusers
Yes, and women who make false RAPE accusations should be given the same punishment applied to Rapists. In fact, in the case of the DUKE 3, Jesse Jackson had the temerity to offer their accuser, Crystal Gail Mangum, a college scholarship. Please note that the MSM was silent on this issue. Few editorialists had the courage to even mention the name CRYSTAL GAIL MANGUM.

Snafu...
your example is why I couldn't be a police officer. I would have not been able to keep from killing that POS on the spot. The fact that perp went to trial means you're a better man than I.
BTW, the POS in question was a known serial rapist? Why was he alive? If he had been offed the first time he was caught, how many other victims would have avoided that fate at his hands? A shame on whoever let him out. I go back to my prior statement let the familys handle it. I bet the fathers of those girls would gladly make him pay.

puftwaffle
"It's very apparent that you become too emotional on this subject to discuss it in a rational manner."

As it is equally apparent that you've become too desensitized to discuss humane advocacy of victims and understandable punishment for their perps.

Drunk drivers have not a thing to do with violent crimes WITH INTENT. If you can't see the difference between them, you're not rational enough to participate in such a sensitive discussion, let alone making judgement calls on effective sentencing.

Moving on to another thread. I'm not going to stick around and help appease your guilt through argument, the guilt of knowing that many children have been hurt and maimed directly because of you and your ilks sympathies to their perps that enable them to move about society freely, without consequence.

RM
How 'bout that RM, what was your point there. I hope it wasn't some kind of threat.

SSGT
That is the problem with this delay in posts showing up. Sometimes it takes so long for one to show up it gets lost in the shuffle. if you had not posted that reply I would never had seen it.

Demosthenes
I agree.

From now on, every person who accuses others of rape should have their identities publicized and their life details publicized. They lost the privilege of anonymity with that Duke rape hoax.

re: Demosthenes
You're right about the number of false charges. The solution to that is if somebody makes a false charge of rape and somebody is imprisoned or put to death that person should be tried for murder in the case of the death and should serve the time that the victim was sentenced to serve. This should be done with out fail without judges having the option of changing the sentence.

The choice of weapon isn't relevant in the crime of Murder except certain weapons show malice of forethought and using the legal system to commit murder should be considered the same way. Likewise, using the legal system to basically, remove ones property and family by locking them away should be punishable by life in prison.

Basically, using rape charge or any criminal charge to attack somebody should be treated as the crime charged. So somebody alleging maliciously that somebody committed rape would be charge with leveling a false accusation of rape which would carry automatically, the same penalty as the specific rape charged.

In the case of focused attacks that should reduce the number of false reports.

Karufe
Has it ever occurred to you that if the death penalty were applied to rape, rapists would murder their victims?

Vic
the little dweeb is just a pimple on my arse!