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Wednesday, April 02, 2008
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Letter to a Secular Nation
by Mike Adams
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In his short book, Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris begins by talking about the torrent of hate mail he received in response to his previous book, The End of Faith. He has this to say about the worst of it:

The most hostile of these communications have come from Christians. This is ironic, as Christians generally imagine that no faith imparts the virtues of love and forgiveness more effectively than their own. The truth is that many who claim to be transformed by Christ’s love are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism.

Such a statement would be alarming to Christians were there not a fundamental logical error involved. One way to grasp that error is to imagine me starting a book with the following:

The most hostile of my communications have come from homosexuals. This is ironic, as homosexuals generally imagine that no lifestyle imparts the virtues of love and tolerance more effectively than their own. The truth is that many who claim to be liberated by alternative lifestyles are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism.

Of course, all groups fail to live up to their ideals from time to time – whether it is Christians failing to show forgiveness or homosexuals failing to show tolerance. Some would rebut my example by claiming I should expect more hate mail from homosexuals because I criticize that group disproportionately. Harris, on the other hand, wrote a book criticizing people of all faiths with most of the hostile responses coming from Christians.

That logic is flawed and deeply so.

It should go without saying that - even if all of the world’s religions were, in fact, equally loving and forgiving - one should still expect more hostile responses from Christians. This can be attributed to the rather simple fact that Christianity is the world’s largest religion. And, of course, in the places where Sam Harris’ books are distributed and read that gap increases greatly.

That rather obvious truth raises another question: How many members of the world’s second largest religion (Islam) might be hostile towards the writings of Sam Harris but for various reasons are unable to access his writings?

I would suspect that the relative dearth of public libraries and private bookstores in Islamic nations would have something to do with the relatively low response rate from Muslims. I would also venture a guess that limited email access in Islamic nations prevents Islamic extremists from sending hate mail to Sam Harris. He may well get more hate mail from Muslims in the future but not until some of the communities in which those extremists reside actually manage to get indoor plumbing.

Of course, when the writings of Sam Harris do become a topic of widespread conversation in the Islamic world he is more likely to be the target of a nasty beheading courtesy of Hezbollah than a rude missive courtesy of Hotmail. And that beheading is more likely than hate mail to prevent future First Amendment expression.

Christianity is indeed flawed because of Christians like me who fail to live up to the ideals of the religion. But Christianity simply cannot be characterized as the religion most hostile to free expression. That contention is simply absurd.

Sam Harris contends that his primary purpose in writing Letter to a Christian Nation is to “arm secularists in our society, who believe that religion should be kept out of public policy, against their opponents on the Christian Right.” That is as dishonest a statement as I have read in quite some time.

Were Harris to seek to preserve the Establishment Clause by keeping one particular faith from becoming the “official” state religion his goals would be laudable. Were he to seek to keep religion “out of public policy” altogether his goals would be laughable. But none of this is relevant because Sam Harris seeks neither of these outcomes.

Instead, Sam Harris seeks to make Secular Humanism the “official religion” of each of our fifty United States. And he seeks to turn our public schools into houses of worship for the Secular Humanist religion with compulsory attendance for children funded with compulsory offerings by adults.

And he seeks to do so in a decidedly anti-intellectual manner. I plan to use the next several columns to respond.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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will
beat ya!

will, hurry up!
Two heteros have already beat you to the comment section!

Sam I Am
Can I make it three? I better hurry!

Fitna
Fitna Fitna Fitna! See it while it's still on YouTube. Mike is right. Americans who don't know any better (or don't want to know better) seem to enjoy ridiculing Christians because we are not going to sever their heads with rusty/dull butcher knives. And then they call themselves "persecuted" and "brave." Read "Chosen Soldiers," "Warrior Elite," or "Lone Survivor." That's bravery.

One point
"I would suspect that the relative dearth of public libraries and private bookstores in Islamic nations would have something to do with the relatively low response rate from Muslims."

They didn't waste any time rioting over those Danish cartoons.

More on that One Point
-- also, somehow the Muslims got a hold of Salman Rushdie's work, "Satanic Verses", although I couldn't say whether or not they got it at a public library.

So I wouldn't flatter myself if I hadn't gotten any nastygrams from Muslims, just because maybe they hadn't gotten around to reading my stuff yet. Somehow, they do manage to find it.

mizzy1941 -- ridiculing Christians
"... Americans who don't know any better (or don't want to know better) seem to enjoy ridiculing Christians ..."

Hey, the Jews put up with it for centuries. Maybe it's just the Christians' turn for a change.

Unca Alby
I read all three of your post and have not found one positive thing in any of them. It sucks to be you...

As it happens, I own a copy of
Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation". Let's explore this author a bit further.

Harris writes: "One of the most pernicious effects of religion is that is tends to divorce morality from the reality of human and animal suffering. Religion allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are not - that is, when they have nothing to do with suffering or its alleviation. Indeed, religion allows people to imagine that their concerns are moral when they are highly immoral - that is, when pressing these concerns inflicts unnecessary and appalling suffering on innocent human beings. This explains why christians like yourself expend more "moral" energy opposing abortion than fighting genocide. It explains why you are more concerned about human embryos than about the lifesaving promise of stem-cell research. And it explains why you can preach against condom use in sub-Saharan Africa while millions die from AIDS there each year."

"You believe that your religious concerns about sex, in all their tiresome immensity, have something to do with morality. And yet, your efforts to constrain the sexual behavior of consenting adults - and even to discourage your own sons and daughters from having premarital sex - are almost never geared toward the relief of human suffering. In fact, relieving suffering seems to rank rather low on your list of priorities. Your principle concern appears to be that the creator of the universe will take offense at something people do while naked. This prudery of yours contributes daily to the surplus of human misery."

that's an opener?


Yea, and I suppose by his standards the hostile stuff should have come from those who agree with him? Well, if he did have hostile criticism from others he gets to choose if he tells us. No I really expected him to say those hostile and venomous atheists, whatever possesses them? (isn’t it against their nature or something?)

I hate to see the closer.


Atheism & morality
Will, I really dare you to read "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. It is an intellectually stimulating book that lays out the problem quite well.

As for your moral values, just what do you base them on? Without a Moral Lawgiver, your morals are just your opinions vs mine. Without an absolute standard, you have no right to call me wrong. The whole idea of right and wrong is based on a standard. If you leave it up to society to decide what's right and wrong, you have Nazis murdering a whole race of people.

Will, the truth will indeed set you free from your hostility and bitterness.

Will! You made it!!
You're a tad bit late, but you spanked it out of the park, as usual, you old atheist you! Oh I'm sorry. You don't like that label, do you? Hmmm. What can we call an arrogant, self serving, prideful, conceited nincompoop (who thinks he knows more than God)? Oh, let's just stick with atheist.

Actually ...
Unca Alby writes: They didn't waste any time rioting over those Danish cartoons.

... it took months and a few people to whip up the masses. Only when a couple of traveling imams took the cartoons (with the addition of bogus pictures just in case the real cartoons weren't shocking enough) on a road show did the Middle Eastern "street" respond.




Virginia Lady
Thanks for setting Unca Alba straight. Wait until the Flying Imams do the same for FITNA. If you have not seen it, click here.
http://moneyrunner.blogspot.com/2008/03/fitna-and-islamofas cist-rage.html

Letter to a secular nation
Here's what I say to the secularists: your lifestyle isn't sustainable, not so long as you keep giving power to the Muslims. Have you thought about the consequences of this?

crossroads
Where were you folks when we were standing in front of the Supreme Court building in Montgomery with Judge Moore at America's crossroad?

Had common sense America taken it's stand there against the irrational forces of secular censorship, the downward spiral of this nation could have been reversed. Instead, we now have Harris, Obama and Wright, with worse yet to come.

Would to God, Judge Moore and Alan Keyes would join forces and give America a Third Party choice in this election. ms

Will
In one of your more absurd quotes, and it was difficult to choose only one, you quoted Harris as writing:

"We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle."

No we don't. That is because beliefs such as those described by Harris are widely accepted as untrue. Just like atheism - or non-belief if you prefer. The vast majority of Americans believe in God and practice Christianity. This is akin to liberals distancing themselves from the term liberal. It is how you rationalize your mindset. If you can just be accepted as normal then the battle is half won.

I will agree with you that atheism is not a philosophy as a philosophy is defined as: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline. Clearly atheists do not possess any of these.

Bluepiper
If I might interrupt your discussion with Will, I saw you mentioned _I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist_ by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. As one who lacks faith in God, when I see it in the bookstore I wonder what it's about and would it be worth the read. Can you tell me how do they define atheist. If it's one who believes God does not exist, I would agree, that takes as much faith as believing He does. But then how could they write an entire book about that, how could that be intellectually stimulating? It would just be another banal book like D'Souza's.


Oh, btw, morals can be based on natural law leaving the question of God as creator and law-giver open.

Mike
"Instead, Sam Harris seeks to make Secular Humanism the “official religion” of each of our fifty United States."

Oh stop it silly man. Secular humanism is as real as islamofascism both are made up threats to rally your troops. A ragtag group of criminal terrorists using religion to recruit and justify their criminal actions are not a mega threat to the Western World. Christianity is not threatened by unbelievers; it is threatened by a lack of interest and for some reason seems unable to compete in the world of ideas. There is no "secular humanism" there doesn't have to be. My thoughts are that both Islam and Christianity will recover from nasty bouts of fundamentalism but only time will tell


Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punish

FOX-A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.

A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims, including their wives and daughters, according to Islam Watch.

“Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet,” the Imam says, according to the report. “If you don’t believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain.”

The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam’s position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/report-non-muslims -deserve-to-be-punished


The Test
Non-Christians attempt to minimize God/Christ by shifting the focus away from God/Christ and onto any one Christian who has done something that goes against God's/Christ's teachings.

I try to focus on those Christians(and there are many)who walk the walk while I pray for those who have made bad choices.

Energy spent trying to justify my faith to someone who is trapped in a dangerous/self destructive lifestyle rarely helps.

Walk the walk as best you can and a non-believer may be impacted in a positive way due to your example.

Nothing conveys hatred like a Christian
though Islam easily qualifies for the silver.

You must seem to believe that it is your sacred obligation to inflict as much misery on as many people as possible. And still, you wonder why non-Christians (and especially, ex-Christians!) despise you as a group?

Mike Adams, Doug Giles, Frank Pastore and the gang (an apt word for them, like the Crips and the Bloods) give such a wonderful testimony of love, acceptance, and forgiveness. NOT! And, oh, the laity!

From Adams' anger to Pastore's pomposity, we witness what it is like to be a "successful" Christian. Not a club any sane man would want to join.

It is a pleasure just to remind you of the folly of your fatuous faith. Don't thank us; you have more than earned it. We remember.

Might I cordially recommend Charles B. Graham, Take the Stand! because You're the Best Christian Somebody Knows (1996)? Jesus is too busy being dead or doing vile things to young children on the golf course to give an account of himself, so it's up to you to do it for him. And you do such a wonderful job.

James 4:17.

I agree...
Invest 15 minutes watching Fitna. THIS is intolerance. The most disturbing portion of the film is the placard condemning 'Freedom'.

Islam defines intolerance. This is something Atheists, Buddhist, Christians, Hindi, Jews, et al can agree upon.

I do not hate Islam; I respect and fear it.

N

Adams: Borderline closet queen?
MA: "Some would rebut my example by claiming I should expect more hate mail from homosexuals because I criticize that group disproportionately."
-------------------
The preachers who spend a disproportionate time railing against homosexuality, pornography, and infidelity are the ones most likely to get caught indulging in it (e.g., Ted Haggard -- homosexuality; Jimmy Swaggart -- pornography, infidelity; Bob Larson -- infidelity; but see, Paul Crouch -- homosexuality). Based on that track record, it would not surprise to hear one day that Adams was caught picking up young male prostitutes in the red light district with amyl nitrate on him.

further to Bluepiper @ 5:06
You didn't mention (probably for spacial reasons) that a "normal" answer from the more enlightened segments of society is that Science shows what works and doesn't, and that it will ultimately become the basis for the "proper" moral society.

Since said Science has to be interpreted by us mere mortals it is just as prone to being bent by those with agendas, with less likelihood of opposing forces being able to say "this is wrong because...". The Nazi's are the best example of this to date: their progressive way of looking at the world told them that Darwinism was the way of determining which people were more fit, so eugenics of all of the untermenchen (sp?) was a logical, scientific way of improving humanity. They already had the bona-fides of a proper socialist outlook, pro-gay (in the early days), pro-vegetarian, anti-religious (pandering not included), pro-animal rights, etc group so of COURSE they would only do the right things.

Nothing in the crusades (attempting to reclaim what was taken) or inquisition can compare, IMHO.

Fait accompli
The public schools already ARE "houses of worship for the Secular Humanist religion with compulsory attendance for children funded with compulsory offerings by adults."

One look at my real estate tax bill tells me just how much my compulsory offering is.



my 2 cents
Sam writes his little tomes for two reasons

1) Money

2) Pi....g people off

It seems as if he is doing ok on both counts.

For some good writing by Sam Harris I heartily recommend a piece he wrote that was published in the Los Angeles Times in September of 2006. It's an eye-opener. Meanwhile just ignore everything else he writes.

You gotta trust me on this one.

1 more things
Sam Harris also writes his silly little books for a third reason - to give clowns like Mike Adams stuff to write about and to give you genii out there something to rant about.

Some Facts
Many of the founding fathers were not Christians. The establishment clause was originally championed by Baptists who say it as critical to insuring that a more mainline religion would not become the official religion of the new nation. America is one of the most religious nations in the west. This is the result of the establishment clause. Many evil things have been done in the name of Christ. Many wonderful things have been done in the name of Christ.

Religious institions are subject to the same temptations for corruption and hypocracy as any other insititutions in society. Neither the left or the right have a monopoly on religion.

Evolution is a fact and science and religion are not incompatable. Atheists are no more or less moral than Christians. All morality stems from religion, but that does not prove that those religions are true.

Most church going people are nice people. The culture war is a myth. Organized prayer does not belong in the schools. Businesses that say happy holiday are trying to increase their sales to religious and non-religios people, no bias, just good marketing. Christ never said a word about homosexuals so why does gay marrage take up so much of the agenda of the religious right. Christ did speak alot about helping the poor and that is missing from their agenda.

Both conservatives and the religious right were slow to speak up about the evils of Jim Crow, that favored tradition over what was morally indefensible. John Brown the abolishinist relied on his religious beliefs as a basis for his actions, so did many of the people who participated in the underground railroad.


Artis
"..Walk the walk as best you can and a non-believer may be impacted in a positive way due to your example. "

I agree

You need some spiritual Viagra, MA
MA: "Christianity is indeed flawed because of Christians like me who fail to live up to the ideals of the religion.
-------------------
It is one thing to fail, and another entirely to scarcely appear to make a token effort.

JMO51
Well done that summed it up nicely LOL

You should be praising him
Uncle Max: "Sam writes his little tomes for two reasons

1) Money

2) Pi....g people off

It seems as if he is doing ok on both counts.
------------------
And this is different from Christian tomes exactly how?

It's capitalism. Aren't you supposed to be rejoicing?

So what
So Harris wrote a book stating his opinion. So did Mike. I remember reading David Limbaugh’s book about religious persecution when it first came out. The same with Dobson’s. Each is writing what is basically still opinion. They have made conclusions based on truthful observations, but the conclusions are still just opinion. I harbor no fear for my faith or for religion in America, nor do I fear that religion will overpower secularism. There will always be friction, but we will always have a balance. That is one of the great benefits of our system and also of the greatness of the American people.

Mike writes: “Of course, all groups fail to live up to their ideals from time to time”. In this we find the kernel of truth of this debate. I imagine the thread will be filled mostly with folks offering examples of the times their opposition failed while giving little though to the times they, themselves have failed.

Bluepiper, etc.
Bluepiper writes: Wednesday, April, 02, 2008 5:06 AM
Atheism & morality
Will, I really dare you to read "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. It is an intellectually stimulating book that lays out the problem quite well.

As for your moral values, just what do you base them on? Without a Moral Lawgiver, your morals are just your opinions vs mine. Without an absolute standard, you have no right to call me wrong. The whole idea of right and wrong is based on a standard. If you leave it up to society to decide what's right and wrong, you have Nazis murdering a whole race of people.

Will, the truth will indeed set you free from your hostility and bitterness.

Christians are just more subtle
Nancy M: "Invest 15 minutes watching Fitna. THIS is intolerance. The most disturbing portion of the film is the placard condemning 'Freedom'.

Islam defines intolerance.
---------------------------
No, they're just unabashed about it. Christians are every bit as bad as a group; it's just that they are more subtle about it.


Beastie Boy
Man, you are brilliant. Your powers of insight are staggering. You,after all and all by yourself, have finally defined Mike Adams. "Based on that track record, it would not surprise to hear one day that Adams was caught picking up young male prostitutes in the red light district with amyl nitrate on him." But please share with us your data for coming to this profundity. What studies do you cite for making the claim that preachers who preach against certain sins are really ,and in secret, immersed in the sins they warn us about? OK, while we are waiting for those resource citations, let me surmise that your desire is masquerading as an hypothesis and your hypothesis is masquerading as a fact. I will allow you a few days to get your mind around this for you to compose an adequate response.

Will
I am confused. Are you agreeing with these ideas or are you just showing us what is in the book. Anyway thank you. The examples you produced were not well thought out or written, but it is valueable to know what current atheists are thinking so we may communicate with them. Why don't you try reading some good old fashion Francis Schaeffer of Labri. He spent alot of time answering atheists questions. Atheism is a world-view based on the thinking that God does not exist. It is impossible not to have a world-view. Your view of the world is that God does not exist. This affects your daily life and thoughts. You believe that you are here by random chance. Your life according to your belief has no more value than the rock sitting in my garden. We,as a community ,can state that your life matters but in reality it doesn't. Now as an atheist you call yourself neutral. But there is no neutral position. A person either believes a God created or random chance created. You want to teach my children that life is random and meaningless and their lives have no value. How is this not inflicting on my children your world-view.

Geisler bites the big one
Michael: "Will, I really dare you to read "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek. It is an intellectually stimulating book that lays out the problem quite well.
-----------------------
Everything Geisler puts out is unadulterated cr@p. He's worse than Sam Harris could ever be.

bluepiper & lonestar blues

I too have read Geisler and Turek's book, and subsequently corresponded with Turek. I recommend it to others on occasion.

It IS intellectually stimulating, and raises many issues beyond the atheistic POV. Secular Humanism is now the official state religion in the USA. Atheism does indeed require a "leap of faith". People who disagree are not being intellectually honest with themselves, or anyone else.

People such as Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens have their axes to grind. However, they are unable to answer the basic question: "why is there something rather than nothing?" In all my reading, I have not seen one atheist answer this question in any sort of logical or meaningfull way. They are artful dodgers.

I would also recommend a great book entitled "Science's Blind Spot" for a thorough exploration of how theological assumptions underpin all of modern science. Be warned, however -- especially if you have trouble thinking logically.

The Christian god and Fitna
Michael: "As for your moral values, just what do you base them on? Without a Moral Lawgiver, your morals are just your opinions vs mine. Without an absolute standard, you have no right to call me wrong.
------------------
Christianity doesn't *HAVE* a Moral Lawgiver or an absolute standard -- unless you accept "might makes right and the ends justify the means" as a standard of moral law. Your god can lie, and even order an act of genocide -- which makes him no more "moral" than the radical mullahs in Fitna.

WILL
Now I want you to sit in front of a blank chalkboard . How long will you have to wait before No one picks up a piece of non-existent chalk and begins to write complicated mathmatical equations? Forever? You have to agree this is impossible. But this is what you as an atheist believe. Why is it easier for you to believe the impossible? It is easier for me to believe that an all-powerful Someone created the chalk and wrote on the blank chalkboard. I hope you are not insulted by my picture, I usually teach children.