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Wednesday, April 02, 2008
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Letter to a Secular Nation
by Mike Adams
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In his short book, Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris begins by talking about the torrent of hate mail he received in response to his previous book, The End of Faith. He has this to say about the worst of it:

The most hostile of these communications have come from Christians. This is ironic, as Christians generally imagine that no faith imparts the virtues of love and forgiveness more effectively than their own. The truth is that many who claim to be transformed by Christ’s love are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism.

Such a statement would be alarming to Christians were there not a fundamental logical error involved. One way to grasp that error is to imagine me starting a book with the following:

The most hostile of my communications have come from homosexuals. This is ironic, as homosexuals generally imagine that no lifestyle imparts the virtues of love and tolerance more effectively than their own. The truth is that many who claim to be liberated by alternative lifestyles are deeply, even murderously, intolerant of criticism.

Of course, all groups fail to live up to their ideals from time to time – whether it is Christians failing to show forgiveness or homosexuals failing to show tolerance. Some would rebut my example by claiming I should expect more hate mail from homosexuals because I criticize that group disproportionately. Harris, on the other hand, wrote a book criticizing people of all faiths with most of the hostile responses coming from Christians.

That logic is flawed and deeply so.

It should go without saying that - even if all of the world’s religions were, in fact, equally loving and forgiving - one should still expect more hostile responses from Christians. This can be attributed to the rather simple fact that Christianity is the world’s largest religion. And, of course, in the places where Sam Harris’ books are distributed and read that gap increases greatly.

That rather obvious truth raises another question: How many members of the world’s second largest religion (Islam) might be hostile towards the writings of Sam Harris but for various reasons are unable to access his writings?

I would suspect that the relative dearth of public libraries and private bookstores in Islamic nations would have something to do with the relatively low response rate from Muslims. I would also venture a guess that limited email access in Islamic nations prevents Islamic extremists from sending hate mail to Sam Harris. He may well get more hate mail from Muslims in the future but not until some of the communities in which those extremists reside actually manage to get indoor plumbing.

Of course, when the writings of Sam Harris do become a topic of widespread conversation in the Islamic world he is more likely to be the target of a nasty beheading courtesy of Hezbollah than a rude missive courtesy of Hotmail. And that beheading is more likely than hate mail to prevent future First Amendment expression.

Christianity is indeed flawed because of Christians like me who fail to live up to the ideals of the religion. But Christianity simply cannot be characterized as the religion most hostile to free expression. That contention is simply absurd.

Sam Harris contends that his primary purpose in writing Letter to a Christian Nation is to “arm secularists in our society, who believe that religion should be kept out of public policy, against their opponents on the Christian Right.” That is as dishonest a statement as I have read in quite some time.

Were Harris to seek to preserve the Establishment Clause by keeping one particular faith from becoming the “official” state religion his goals would be laudable. Were he to seek to keep religion “out of public policy” altogether his goals would be laughable. But none of this is relevant because Sam Harris seeks neither of these outcomes.

Instead, Sam Harris seeks to make Secular Humanism the “official religion” of each of our fifty United States. And he seeks to turn our public schools into houses of worship for the Secular Humanist religion with compulsory attendance for children funded with compulsory offerings by adults.

And he seeks to do so in a decidedly anti-intellectual manner. I plan to use the next several columns to respond.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Harris in Arabic, coming soon on Amazon.
I believe each of us is truly entitled to view Beginnings and Humanity as we like. This is guaranteed in the right to the free excercise of religion.

We have a problem.

~Instead, Sam Harris seeks to make Secular Humanism the “official religion” of each of our fifty United States. And he seeks to turn our public schools into houses of worship for the Secular Humanist religion with compulsory attendance for children funded with compulsory offerings by adults.~

Protect your own, and your fellow American's, right to make his own religious decisions. It's fun to debate. It's really neat. But it is our heritage to decide for ourselves.

But still, let's go ahead and translate Harris' book into Arabic and Persian, just for Mike Adams' personal fetish, and see what happens.

GG-AZ
"I think that a true scientist should be open minded, ready to follow wherever the evidence leads, and should not reject a priori the possibility of supernatural explanations for physical phenomena."

OK, now you're talking scientific/methodological materialism. Following where the evidence leads is exactly what scientific method is about. Nothing is rejected a priori. Consider Einstein's theories of relativity and quantum mechanics. He formulated reasonable theories for which he had to wait decades for corroborating evidence. But it wasn't considered science until it was supported by empirical evidence, it was mere speculation prior to that.

As for exploring supernatural explanations for physical phenomena, I suggest any of several books by the astrophysicist Victor Stenger. His approach, following scientific/methodological materialism, that is, scientific method, is that science can address religious claims where the claims are scientific, empirical, natural, like, for example, the efficaciousness of prayer, miracles and the like. Not one of these claims, he shows, stand up to scientific scrutiny. With prayer, for example, the only scientific evidence available shows it might actually be harmful.

GG-AZ
"'The philosophy of materialism holds that the only thing that can be truly proven to exist is matter.' (Wikipedia.) This is the materialism that I had in mind."

OK, thanks. That philosophy is long defunct. One need only point to ideas to refute it.

"This probably corresponds most closely with what you call 'scientific materialism,' which you say 'defines scientific method.'"

No, not at all. Completely different concept. Scientific materialism limits science to what moves meters is all it says, limits science to what is testable. A synonymous expression is methodological materialism. IOW, this concept of materialism limits scientific method.

There is no philosophical implication. Science does say there is nothing else, just that what doesn't move meters, can't be tested, lies outside its research.

"I think, however, that the inclusion of the word "scientific" is both unnecessary and a bit misleading."

What's misleading is conflating the concepts. What you're talking about is metaphysical materialism. You can look them both up te way you did materialism.

"It implies the inherent assumption of the truth of the materialistic position -- which is only an assumption -- and seeks to bolster its credibility by calling it "scientific.""

Scientific/methodological materialism does nothing of the sort.

Lonestarblues
"The philosophy of materialism holds that the only thing that can be truly proven to exist is matter." (Wikipedia.) This is the materialism that I had in mind.

This probably corresponds most closely with what you call "scientific materialism," which you say "defines scientific method." I think, however, that the inclusion of the word "scientific" is both unnecessary and a bit misleading. It implies the inherent assumption of the truth of the materialistic position -- which is only an assumption -- and seeks to bolster its credibility by calling it "scientific."

I think that a true scientist should be open minded, ready to follow wherever the evidence leads, and should not reject a priori the possibility of supernatural explanations for physical phenomena.

ModMark cont'd
Theologically, I believe that God created the universe. He may have done this in many different ways, including:

(1) Creating the "Big Bang" approximately 13-14 billion years ago, as stated by current theory;

(2) Creating the "Big Bang" much more recently, but causing time to move at a different speed in the past, accounting for present observations. Another way of saying this is that God may have governed the universe with different physical laws in the past. I don't know how He could do this, but then I don't know how He could do a great many things.

(3) Creating the universe much more recently -- as little as 6,000 to 8,000 years ago, though perhaps longer -- but creating it with an "appearance of age." Thus the mountains that He created would look weathered, the mature trees would have rings, and He would simultaneously create distant galaxies and the photons in transit to us from those galaxies.

The Big Bang theory matches pretty well with the first few verses of Genesis -- "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; that there was light."

In this verse, I'm inclined to interpret "earth" as matter, and "the deep" as space (or perhaps space-time).

In later verses, God created an "expanse" called "heaven," which separated the "waters" above from "waters" below, and after that, gathered together the "waters below" causing dry land to appear. This sounds more to me like the creation of the planet Earth itself.

I'm open to various levels of literal and figurative interpretations of the Genesis account. I think that God gave Moses a vision of the Creation, and Moses did the best he could to describe it.

ModMark
I remain open minded about the "Big Bang" model. I am skeptical of scientific theories, which have changed sufficiently in my lifetime (40 years so far) for me to expect changes in the future.

As I understand the "Big Bang" models, they are the cosmologists' best efforts to track matter and energy back to a starting point. A period called "inflation" was added to the model (I think by Guth), which hypothesizes a period in which the laws of physics were different in the early universe (at least this is my understanding as an educated layman).
Physics/cosmology may be on the verge of a new change, as a result of the "neutrino oscillation" phenomenon which is not explained by the current "Standard Model." Essentially, neutrinos were supposed to be massless according to theory, but experiment demonstrated that they have mass (and thus can change "flavor"). This may be resolved with only minor "tweaking," or may require an entirely new paradigm.

Recall that the Newtonian physicists thought that they had everything just about figured out in the late 1800s, except for a few pesky anomalies like black body radiation. Quantum mechanics and relativity were required to resolve these discrepancies.

Also, keep in mind that no one has united quantum mechanics and relativity, so there remains a large gap in current physics/cosmology, even before considering the neutrino oscillation issue.

ModMark
"But Einstein had no empirical data to work with except (maybe the speed of light). One of the most amazing feats ever, the development of his theories."

What he had was deduction and imagination. Popper argues discovery more along lines of deduction, Poincare more along lines of imagination, subconscious. Following discovery, of course, comes the work of science, verifying or falsifying the theory. Darwin went through the same process, and just like Einstein refined Newtons Laws, Darwin refined ideas of others before him.

ModMark
Way I figure if we don't define terms up front we'll be talking past each other.

I'd be good with, from the perspective of scientific materialism, do we

(1) (a) know (b) believe (c) model How did the universe come into existence?
(2) (a) know (b) believe (c) model How did the life come into existence?

(Pick c, pick c! LOL)

Anyway, you mention big bang. One of the most fascinating things about big bang, and little understood, is it expanded not at one point in space but everywhere--and it's still expanding, anywhere you go in the universe, it's expanding away from you. Look out on the stars tonight and be awed.

GG-AZ
"Is anyone on the materialistic side of the debate going to take a crack at the questions posed by Johnnyv812 above?"

What do you mean by materialism, scientific materialism, which defines scientific method, or metaphysical materialism, a defunct philosophical position, or dialectical materialism, the philosophical basis of Marxism, which ought to be defunct.

While not a scientist, I could try and give the questions a shot from the perspective scientific materialism, if that's what you're asking for. Don't want to presume too much, and head down the wrong road, and waste my time.

Higene or anyone
Is anyone on the materialistic side of the debate going to take a crack at the questions posed by Johnnyv812 above?

(1) How did the universe come into existence?
(2) How did the life come into existence?



ModMark
In response to your earlier post about pantheism, and that it "certainly works well for" you: I think that the Christian response is that the question is not whether it works for you, but whether it works for God.

Have you ever read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis? I found his arguments very convincing in support of a monotheistic God existing separately from the universe, but I read it after my conversion to Christianity, so in my case he was preaching to the choir.

One problem that I see with pantheism is the question of creation itself. If God = the universe, and we accept the Big Bang theory, then what caused God/the universe to suddenly pop into existence 13-14 billion years ago?

Wendy
I have never seen evidence that scientists have actually observed the evolution of one species to another. Do you know of any?

We can breed dogs to be as big as a Great Dane or as small as a Chihuahua, but they're still dogs.

It is my understanding that the evolution of species is inferred from similarities in anatomy, and from the discovery of intermediate forms in the fossil record that are hypothesized to have been "missing links" between different species and a common ancestor.


Noah's Ark
If we can accept the idea that Almighty God covered the entire earth with a great flood, then it's not hard to accept the idea that He could have made the animals fit in the Ark and ensured that the food supply lasted long enough.

@camanintx
Gen. 1:24 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."

Based on your reference, your comment was a non sequitur.

Variation within "kinds" of animals certainly does occur, let's define this as speciation. No one argues this fact (that I know of). Nowhere in the Bible is the fact of speciation contradicted.

For example, Noah could have brought one pair of dog-type animal on the ark that over time could have led to the tremendous variety of dogs found on the planet today.

What unquestionably does not happen is for one kind of animal to turn into another kind of animal. Dogs will always give birth to dogs, tadpoles will hatch from frog eggs and grow up to be frogs, etc.

It doesn't matter how many billions of years you throw into the equation, there is a 0% chance of a cow becoming a manatee, let's say.

Respectfully,
AFM

AF Major writes:
Creationists estimate that approximately 16,000 animals would have had to been brought aboard the ark. In the 4,000 years since the flood these 16,000 could easily account for the great variety of speciation we see today.
---------------------------------------------
And yet the same book that gives us the Ark story also says that evolution does not happen (Genesis 1:24). Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

Nice hypothesis MikeR
I confess that I hadn't heard about the possibility of the lowered metabolism etc. If I was Noah or a family member, I know I sure would appreciate the cut in the work load (not to mention the smell).

AFM

AF Major
As I recall, there was also a study showing that the animals would be primarily in darkness most of the time and this would cause a general decrease in activity and metabolism. Therefore, they would eat less (and void less) and not become restless during the voyage. The design ratio is fairly stable since there is no need for speed or maneuverability. Logistically it would be a daunting task, but not impossible.


sdan
"I am left at the end of the day, however, with a mystery."

As I am. I suspect our notions of spirituality are different is all.

"I know for a fact that there is more than one way to access and assess Reality."

Sure, inutition, analogy, but to say you understand it, know it, and communicate it to others requires reason--and I don't mean anything special, just thought, cognition.

"What is the difference between a cathedral and a physics lab? Are they not both saying: Hello?"

Like that. Used to be people, like Bacon, Galileo, thought God wrote two books, Bible and Nature.

Sailor or powerboater--3rd option?
I'd say he was more like a rafter.

Creationists estimate that approximately 16,000 animals would have had to been brought aboard the ark. In the 4,000 years since the flood these 16,000 could easily account for the great variety of speciation we see today.

The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep.

If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), that is 75,000 cm3 (cubic centimetres) or 4800 cubic inches, the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. . This would leave room for five trains of 99 cars each for food (and beer, Mark), Noah’s family and ‘range’ for the animals.

AFM


ModMark
The Ark is a great story with a few interesting theories behind it. One is that a period of pre-deluvian global warming made for a time of massive flooding. While not a world wide flood, it could have easily been large enough to give Noah the impression that the whole world was flooded. The course of Noah’s journey would then be charted as flowing down through Mesopotamia. His landing and subsequent development would agree with that area being the cradle of western civilization.

Another theory is that of the metaphor. In this case, the story of Noah actually depicts the death of the Neanderthals. It is accepted that prehistoric homosapiens lived along side the Neanderthals. They would have some memory or verbal history of the time but lack a means of understanding why they went extinct.

here is a little more mark
On a more practical plane, Origen (c. 182–251), responding to a critic who doubted that the Ark could contain all the animals in the world, countered with a learned argument about cubits, holding that Moses, the traditional author of the book of Genesis, had been brought up in Egypt and would therefore have used the larger Egyptian cubit. He also fixed the shape of the Ark as a truncated pyramid, rectangular rather than square at its base, and tapering to a square peak one cubit on a side; it was not until the 12th century that it came to be thought of as a rectangular box with a sloping roof.[10]




modmark
yur mixing of humor and inquiry is always interesting.

here is one way of looking at the noah story.

The story told in Genesis has been subject to extensive elaborations in the various Abrahamic traditions, mingling theoretical solutions to practical problems (e.g. how Noah might have disposed of animal waste) with allegorical interpretations (e.g. the Ark as a precursor of the Church, offering salvation to mankind).

After 150 days, the Ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. The waters continued to recede, and after about seventy more days the hilltops emerged. Noah sent out a raven which "went to and fro until the waters were dried up from the earth." Next, Noah sent a dove out, but it returned having found nowhere to land. After a further seven days, Noah again sent out the dove, and it returned with an olive leaf in its beak, and he knew that the waters had subsided. Noah waited seven days more and sent out the dove once more, and this time it did not return. Then he and his family and all the animals left the Ark, and Noah made a sacrifice to God, and God resolved that he would never again curse the ground because of man, and never again would He destroy all life on it in this manner.

In order to remember this promise, God put a rainbow in the clouds, saying, "Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."


tallil2long
you really are a gracious person. i admire your for staying that way in the environment you are living in.

thank you for your service by the way and you are in my prayers.

i admit i interpreted your response that way.

it is because many posters don't understand that "doing research" and asking questions on a topic can be a neutral fact finding exercise rather than an expression of belief.

does that make sense?

like yourself, i continue to try to educate myself on the truth whether it be political or spiritual.

i know we don't always agree but you have my utmost respect.

God Bless You

lonestarblues

I believe that I understand what you are saying. I think it's great that you have reasoned your position as you have -- given it so much thought. I don't find many people who have gone this far in their thinking on this topic.

I am left at the end of the day, however, with a mystery. I know for a fact that there is more than one way to access and assess Reality.

One book that I highly recommend is "The Spiritual Brain" (Mario Beauregard/Denyse O'Leary).

One of my favorite authors is Annie Dillard. I will leave you with one of her quotes, from "Teaching a Stone to Talk":

"Now we are no longer primitive. Now the whole world seems not holy.....We as a people have moved from pantheism to pan-atheism...It is difficult to undo our own damage and to recall to our presence that which we have asked to leave. It is hard to desecrate a grove and change your mind.

We doused the burning bush and cannot rekindle it. We are lighting matches in vain under every green tree. Did the wind used to cry and hills shout forth praise? Now speech has perished from among the lifeless things of the earth, and living things say very little to very few...And yet it could be that wherever there is motion there is noise, and when a whale breaches and smacks the water, and wherever there is stillness there is the small, still voice, God's speaking from the whirlwind, nature's old song and dance, the show we drove from town.....What have we been doing all these centuries but trying to call God back to the mountain, or, failing that, raise a peep out of anything that isn't us? What is the difference between a cathedral and a physics lab? Are they not both saying: Hello?"

To Higene
"If evolution is absolute then God didn't destroy any other species, such as the dinosaurs. They simply died out through failure to adapt or through a colossal accident, such as a comet collision with Earth."

I would disagree here, although I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'If evolution is absolute'.
Now, I am not wedded to any particular theory of species development; not being well-versed in the current scientific theories and their evidences, I just accept that God made all this through whatever processes he considered best.

But *if* God used evolution to bring forth the creatures of this earth, if he is omnipotent and omniscient and has always existed, then the very 'colossal accidents' and other slower factors that caused dinosaur extinctions should certainly be seen as manifestations of his plan. To a God to whom yesterday, today and tomorrow are equally visible, the slow evolutionary processes of billions of years are merely steps to the achieving of a goal. He simply chose to execute his plan by playing fair with the natural processes he established for the world, rather than by an instantaneous hand-wave.

To religiouslib
"i am a life long Christian and do not believe in secular humanism but i like to deal from facts when i am discussing issues, not take someone else's word for what the facts are."

Pardon me, I should have been more clear. I know from our past conversations that you are not a secular humanist, but one might gather that I was making that assumption from the way I worded my post.

I was trying to draw some conclusions about secular humanism, but was not trying to suggest that I thought it was your own philosophy. I should have written that opening paragraph as follows:

"One can define religion any way one prefers -- there are probably several definitions out there. But if, as you quote, secular humanism was/is regarded as a means to fulfill the human need..."

And I wholeheartedly agree with your preference for finding real facts rather than relying on hearsay! Wish I had more time to do independent research on a number of topics, myself.

Anyway, please excuse my implied suggestion that you are something other than a Christian. I most certainly did *not* intend that.

thebigmick
"You can argue that it is not "empirically" "provable" to YOU; you cannot, cogently, argue it is UN-provable in toto."

I could argue it is empirically unprovable, but I don't, so set the straw man aside, it's another misstep.

"They simply have data you do not. Whether or not you are intentionally excluding that data, is, of course, your own affair."

If "they" have the data, "they" could share it. Just as if "they" knew something, "they" could share it. Knowing something is a matter of reason. It is with reason that we establish the truth or falsity of things, and they thereby become known, become knowledge, and can be communicated.

It seems to me, with all your talk of knowledge and empiricism and data, you're trying to reframe faith as reason.

"I am reminded of the recent study of mentally ill people who heard "voices". Brain wave studies showed brain activity being stimulated EXACTLY as one would expect with ACTUAL sound waves on the ear. The microphones recorded nothing. 'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, then 'tis dreamed of in our philosophy.' And yours, LSB."

And yours, tbm. There are studies out that show stimulating certain parts of the brain can produce religious experience. It involves, iirc, stimulating at the same time parts of the brain involved with emotion and parts involved with reasoning.

thebigmick
"Yeah, and Philosopher David Hume commended the equitorial savage who took your position in regard to "empirical" evidence and Icebergs. In the savage's experience it couldn't be "proven" that water could form a mountain of hard substance. Tell it to the Titanic."

First, apologies for going through the thread in reverse. Anyway, I didn't take any position about empiricism or the need for evidence in the question of God. To me man's concepts of God are unreasonable to begin with. For example, arguing along lines of Hume, creation would be a violation of the laws of nature. As for your analogies, it would be possible to explain in a reasonable way to those savages what an iceberg is, and those on the Titanic sail knowing what icebergs were.

"So much for the usages of mere 'logic' or 'reason' or 'empiricism.'"

So much for your argument.

"By the by, there's pleanty in life that is "reasonably" known that has nothing to do with the "proofs" of "reason."
Love being one of them."

That makes no sense. How does one know something reasonably without reason?

"Just cause YOU'RE Tone Deaf and Color Blind where it comes to God, LSB, doesn't mean that millions of other people, given things very present to their senses which YOU are incapable, presently, of sensing, arrive quite reasonably at the conclusion that God not only exists, but is active and interactive in their lives."

And here I thought that was a matter of faith. You're telling me it's a matter of reason. So, please, explain God in a reasonable way, explain to me how all these people reasonably arrive at God. If it's reasonable, it should be easy to do. Then I will know what you claim to know.

BTW, ad hominem and ad populum are both logical fallacies. You've started off on the wrong foot.

thebigmick
"I do take the position that your actions in response to your 'logic' have consequences, and I'm enough of a sinner to think if FUNNY that I can see you heading for the banana peel all the while arguing logically 'you cannot prove to me there is such a thing as a banana peel.' We'll see won't we?"

We might, once again, that's your belief, and with it you cannot establish truth, only hypotheticals, as in, we might see, mightn't we?

Anyway, I accept the moral position that man is free to choose so long as he is willing to be responsible for his actions. I suspect that is your position as well, except you proclaim faith in something you can't even tell me about, at least you haven't yet.

thebigmick
"If you confine your argument to saying "I can't argue from things unknown to ME," your point is made. If you try to extend the argument to saying "NOBODY can argue from things unknown to me", you're back to Hume's savage. There's pleanty that can be known to them that makes it not ONLY ILLOGICAL, but IRRATIONAL to disbelieve. They can have KNOWNS that you know not of."

Reminds me of Rumsfeld and his known knowns and unknown unknows bit. :)

But to the point it is simply a logical fallacy to argue from unknowns. It is known as argumentum ad ignorantiam. Doesn't matter who's doing the arguing. These savages, if they know something, and are reasonable, can make it known to others.

"Again, whether you are INTENTIONALLY refusing to know is your own look out."

Again, I ask, why don't you tell me? Tell me about your concept of God.


"And just for the plain hell of the fun of it, I would point out that one line of Theology says it is absolutely possible, and, given your persistent disbelief, somewhat probable that you don't have YOUR "knowns" because God is intentionally keeping you from getting them."

You seem to be saying God would intentionally deceive me. Not a good concept of God, I think, not one amenable to faith.

"I don't take that position myself, but it sure as hell would be a hoot to see the egg on the faces of all the 'empiricists' burning in hell!"

Funny, but what if God revealed himself universally in nature rather than relativistically in a book? What if He prefers reasoned doubt to leaps of faith?

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Religious dementia
When a person is religious, they shut down their rational faculty in any matter which they identify as being precluded by their religion.

For example, when Barbara Walters appeared on Bill O'Reilly last night to report that scientists will extend human life span several decades or even centuries by replacing organs with laboratory-created ones, O'Reilly immediately shut down rational thinking and got emotional. He opposed it because he said it is "unnatural" and "playing God." When Barbara Walters explained to him that medical science currently does the same thing in the form of heart transplantation, he vaguely acknowledged that fact but refused to retract his claim. Instead of trying to sort out his contradiction, he did nothing. He refused to think. He did not want to think logically, because this was an area covered by his religion. He refused to think logically because it meant he might have to go against his religion. He did not want to do that, because he is required to prioritize religion over rational thinking, in accordance with his religious doctrine. Everyone outside of the religious bubble of delusion can clearly see that such behavior is crazy.

Technology that can save lives is clearly a good, desireable thing. Everyone can clearly see that. Yet, it is not so to a seriously religious mind, because such a mind shuts down and does not evaluate things logically in areas that their religious doctrine impinges upon. Again, this behavior is crazy.

This kind of craziness is a danger. It is a danger not only to the individuals affected by it or those around them, but to millions and millions of strangers, who must suffer the consequences of their irrationality when such craziness is implemented into law. This craziness must be stopped in its tracks. We obviously cannot allow people to be passing laws against medical science. That would be crazy.

The virus of superstition
Religion is a cancer of the human mind. Any mind that delves into religious ideology too deeply and still insists on taking its doctrines seriously will be forced into craziness and lying.

That natural selection and evolution of species occur is a FACT which has been observed and documented by scientists. The evidence is so solid and thorough, and the phenomena so pervasive, that it is a law of nature. It is not "a theory." Yet, creationists must deny the existence of the proof (liars) and rationalize why it cannot be true (crazy). And these are otherwise good, rational people.

How it is possible for organic molecules to evolve into a cell was explained by George C. Williams in his famous "Adaptation and Natural Selection" in 1966. This work also invalidated all objections to natural selection and evolution, including the anti-concept (and oxymoron) of "irreducible complexity."

Whether yours or mankind's as a whole, ignorance of the facts of reality is not an argument.

Higene
Who created that first living thing? Or for that matter, created a universe that allowed for the existance of life.

Evolution does not disprove, lessen, or in any other way remove God from creation.

BTW, Darwin was not an athiest, but rather a deacon (or some such equilivalent) in the COE.

Evolution is a fact, the way we describe the mechanisms is the theory.

LSB
Re your "You just can't argue from unknowns, well, not reasonably you can't. Thus my position, atheist, lacking belief in God, not asserting He does or does not exist, whatever that might mean, if anything."

If you confine your argument to saying "I can't argue from things unknown to ME," your point is made. If you try to extend the argument to saying "NOBODY can argue from things unknown to me", you're back to Hume's savage. There's pleanty that can be known to them that makes it not ONLY ILLOGICAL, but IRRATIONAL to disbelieve. They can have KNOWNS that you know not of. Again, whether you are INTENTIONALLY refusing to know is your own look out.

And just for the plain hell of the fun of it, I would point out that one line of Theology says it is absolutely possible, and, given your persistent disbelief, somewhat probable that you don't have YOUR "knowns" because God is intentionally keeping you from getting them. And this for the express purpose of burning your disbelieving asz in hell! I don't take that position myself, but it sure as hell would be a hoot to see the egg on the faces of all the "empiricists" burning in hell!

I do take the position that your actions in response to your "logic" have consequences, and I'm enough of a sinner to think if FUNNY that I can see you heading for the banana peel all the while arguing logically "you cannot prove to me there is such a thing as a banana peel."
We'll see won't we?

the big mick

higene
What makes you think God didn't create the universe in 6 nano-seconds and make it LOOK like it took 6 billion, or however many, years?
Why do you think that even "proof" that it COULD happen "spontaneously" from chemicals could ever PROVE that's the way it DID happen? You ain't got no video tape of the moment of THE creation of life, son. You either buy into God or you don't. Personally I don't give much of a damn if you don't--just makes you real stupid in my book, but it is my observation MOST people are that kinda stupid. Added evidence for The Fall--stupid humans. God of course, has indicated he does give a damn, but if you still insist on dissn him, that's your look out. Don't buy you anything useful that I can see, but like I say, most people are that kinda stupid.

the big mick