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Monday, November 19, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Devolving Standards of Decency
by Mike Adams
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Recently, a young woman came by my office to discuss my opposition to abortion. Two of her friends had already had abortions though she had not. She was motivated to visit me by a discussion in her Women’s Studies class – one that broached the controversial topic of abortion and rape.

The feminist teaching the class was one affiliated with our Women’s Resource Center – an office that seeks to win the abortion debate by ensuring that it never actually takes place. The feminists figure that simply maintaining the status quo will look a lot like winning a “debate” to those unaware of the extent of feminist opposition to the First Amendment. They also seek to win the abortion “debate” by using the most extreme cases to justify abortion for the sake of convenience.

And so it came as no surprise that the feminist “scholar” won some points with these impressionable young women by asking them “How could anyone look a rape victim in the eye and tell her she must have her baby?” This was done without ever having to look a pro-lifer in the eye.

Since many of these feminists are English professors there is a decided preference to engage in soliloquy rather than dialogue. There is also a decided tendency to misclassify (or ms-classify) certain questions as rhetorical simply because they have not been subjected to cross-examination in the minds of feminists.

My answer to the feminist’s question is grounded in the assumption that it was not merely rhetorical. My answer is also firmly grounded in reality.

Laura is a real, living and breathing entity – very much like the U.S. Constitution, one might say. She hails from Texas which is also where her mother put her up for adoption in the 1970s. Having never met her biological mother, she eventually became curious about her background and why her mother decided to put her up for adoption. She began doing her research with the understanding that it might lead her to discover some things that were, to say the least, distressing.

And it did lead to distress. In fact, it could not have been more distressing as Laura eventually learned that her father was a rapist and her mother a rape victim. Although I am tempted to speak of Laura’s kindness, her contributions to society, and so forth, I will exercise my right to chose to abort this story (a First Amendment exercise, actually) in order to reframe the feminist professor’s question:

Would it have been more insensitive and indecent to a) tell Laura’s mother to have the baby (as someone seems to have done) or to b) tell Laura she should have been aborted.

And, make no mistake about it; this really is a matter of decency, or lack thereof.

In 1958, the United States Supreme Court stated (in Trop v. Dulles) that the Eight Amendment must “draw its meaning from the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.” In this case, the government was prevented from stripping a man of his citizenship as punishment for a crime.

And look where we have since gone in the name of “progress.” Less than twenty years later, the Supreme Court would say that these “evolving standards of decency” prevented Georgia from executing a man for the crime of rape (see Coker v. Georgia, 1977). The man had a sordid past that included murder, though not murder in the first degree.

And somewhere in between these two cases (beginning in 1965) the Court would imagine a new Right to Privacy. It would take less than a decade before the right to contraception would give birth to a right to abortion, which would remain intact long after the right to avoid pregnancy via the act of sodomy would become part of the constitution.

People very seldom take seriously the retort of one politician who was asked whether a woman impregnated by a rapist should be able to terminate the life of the baby. His suggestion that we should execute the rapist and not the baby was pithy but wholly unrealistic in a society that has so progressed and matured in the eyes of the Highest Court.

There may well be many progressive readers of this column who are satisfied with the status quo; namely, with the extension of rights to rapists and rape victims, but not to the products of rape.

Leaving only one of the three persons in the equation (rapist, victim, and baby) without rights could well be seen as a devolving standard of decency that marks the regress of a secular society. This conclusion is perhaps best avoided by assuming that the unborn are not fully human and, as such, cannot be fairly characterized as persons.

But, in order to avoid an eerie feeling of hypocrisy, “progressive” supporters of abortion rights must simultaneously assume that the convicted rapist is a person who has somehow managed to retain his full humanity and personhood in the wake of such an awful transgression.

Somehow I cannot muster the hubris to assert that the humanity of the fetus is surpassed by that of the convicted rapist. I thank God that evolution has not conspired to make me a part of such a mature and progressive society.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Long-Term Effect
The long term consequences of legalized easy access abortion are only now becoming evident. Even if you disregard the physical consequences, the emotional, pychological and personal consequences are immeasurable (not to mention the Spiritual). Laura's productive life and all the lives she has touched are incalculable. How is it that so many Feminists miss the basic point that their sister's are irreversible damaged by this 'personal choice?' I would never deny that the hardships which may bring a woman to this cosequential decision are real and wrenching, but there are countless unforseen and real consequences. When the Feminists simplify this issue as 'personal choice' and try to pass it off as a protected constitutional right they do the Sisterhood and all of society a tremendous disservice.
I have seen the aftermath of these decisions and it is not pretty. I doubt you'll ever get a Feminist to aknowledge it.

Consequences
It is undoubtedly the final decision of the mother but it should be one that comes with informed consent. That information should include the some of the vast data currently available since Roe which shows the short and long term consequenses of this decision. To oversimplify it as the Feminists have is to do their purported Sisters a disservice.

Doesn't it seem the least bit illogical that a patient is obliged to hear the risks, benefits and alternative treatments prior to having a mole removed, but when it comes to abortion it's simply "Your choice, maam." I'm not even advocating the spiritual element just the hard facts derived from sound data regarding the physical, emotional and psychological consequences of this decision and what alternatives might exist.

What would happen if no one told you the mole was actually melanoma? or that removing the mole would leave you permanently disfigured? or that the mole could be watched rather than excised? How can you give informed consent without pertinent appropriate information?

RE:ROBERT
This the point of the op ed. Thoses on the pro choice side always find away around any kind of debate of real conversation about abortion. And here you are proving the point for the op ed. One of the other points of the op ed is that only thoses on the por choice side can be heard and only their opions count.

So thank you for providing the prof is in the pudding for the op ed coulminist! But not to worry many more of your enlightened fellows will chime in and do same thing. THANK YOU,THANK YOU, THANK YOU,THANK YOU,THANK YOU and THANK YOU!

Robert
Perhaps just poorly worded, but the State doesn't perform D & C's physicians do. I suspect this probably speaks to your Statist philosophy that once again the Do Gooders in Government somehow know what's best for all of us.
How about a little faith in the intelligence and integrity of the principle participants in this procedure-- patient and physician. When the STATE starts restricting how healthcare providers can speak to their patients and what constitutes informed consent, I got a real problem with that. Why the inconsistency? Is it possible, that when presented with risks, benefits and alternatives, someone somehow may choose not to have an abortion? Will that somehow threaten the Nanny State that you propose know's better what the victim wants?

ANA
You'll have to excuse "Robert" from an cogent thoughts on the actual content and thrust of the article. He was probably too busy getting ready to "go out on patrol" in Iraq while living under a bridge over here in Iraq and reading the internet on his laptop via satelite link, or was it keeping up with his "fast mover" currency aboard an aircraft carrier, or maybe praticing for his "helo certificate" (civilian term) in a combat zone or was that your "helo rating" (also a civilian term) or maybe he was too busy violating the UCMJ by slandering the Commander-in-Chief and "other officials appointed over him" as the oath that all military officers take states. At any rate our resident "Navy Captain" is typically too busy to actually READ and comprehend what is written before he spews.

I recently had the joy
of meeting a beautiful 7 year-old adopted embryo. The mom and dad adopted a fertilized, frozen embryo, had it implanted, carried the "choice" to term, and now it's seven years later and the "choice" is in 1st grade doing quite well...
So, that's what can happen when potential stem cell research "material" is given a life option. But, as the article asserts, those who are philosophically and professionally vested in the "choice" camp will brush aside real humans to make their point that it's a "choice." Well, of course it's a choice... choose life if at all possible.

Just what
every rape victime really wants: her choices about her life and her victimization dictated by Mike Adams.

CFUSMC
Re: Robert

What a laugh. The creep's a gadfly or perhaps something akin to a cockroach, super resistent to all insecticide. I don't read his crap but annoyingly note the plethora of his postings and how many columns he covers.

This, obviously, is his full time job. Too bad he's proved the peter priciple and reached the level of his incompetence.

On second thought,
since he will never, ever find himself pregnant as the result of forcible rape, his right to tell everyone who has what to do about it is vintage Adams.

Conservative Christians are wrong when they say that non-Christians attack them for their religion; in fact, they are attacked for their sanctimonious, condescending, smug assumption of the right to tell everybody else how to live and what to do with their own bodies.

Calm yourself
People who have made up their minds usually don't want to be meddled with. The fact is that people change their minds after careful re-assessment. Being exposed to multiple ideas and options (remember "celebrate diversity") will influence some. So, when you make the claim:

"in fact, they are attacked for their sanctimonious, condescending, smug assumption of the right to tell everybody else how to live and what to do with their own bodies."

it may be that some are sanctimonious, condescending, and smug, but you are disingenuous to lump all Christians into that mold. Probably what you like is the "Uncle Ned" Christian. You know, the one who quietly is a Christian, never brings it up, never talks about right and wrong, never mentions the "J" word. The one that you can ignore. But, any Christian who talks is "spouting off religious platitudes," "Bible thumping," and roughing up your little nest. Get used to it. You can take it. Refute it and move on. Or, ...maybe, just maybe... naw! Couldn't be anything to it.

I hit the wrong button
But maybe it won't end that way. Maybe you'll make good investments and luck out. Or, maybe your investments will be mediocre and if you or your wife require extremely expensive medical care at some point, well, you know, it's your choice to win a few, lose a few.

You said that I wanted "the power of life and death" - no, I just want to power over my very own life and death. I just can't figure out why you're so willing to settle for so much less.

Also,
I don't understand why you can't choose your own doctor. Do you live in Idaho or something?

Ummm? Did touj. get banned and have to

come back with a new screen name?

And Silicondoc, well said. Yes, I do believe "the pro abortion raging kookballs are insane."





Mike's wisdom
"Leaving only one of the three persons in the equation (rapist, victim and baby) without rights could well be seen as a devolving standard of decency ..."

Right, then let's remove the victim's right to control her own body. That should square things up.


Bernoldus Niemandt writes:
Mike's wisdom
"Leaving only one of the three persons in the equation (rapist, victim and baby) without rights could well be seen as a devolving standard of decency ..."

Right, then let's remove the victim's right to control her own body. That should square things up.

----------------------------------------

The right of the victm is NOT under attack... it is the methodology of the pro-choice crowd that is...

Why is it that the same pro-choice gang does not want FULLY-INFORMED choice when abortion is concerned?

Why is it that the pro-choice lobby is against the requirement of having their clinics licensed and inspected to the same standards as other surgery centers?

Why is it that the so-called pro-choice people are afraid to use sonograms in their "counseling" sessions?

Why does Planned Parethood refuse to cooperate with law enforcement regarding child rape and abuse laws?

Why does the same Planned Parenthood have to use deceit and subtrefuge during construction of new abortuaries?

Why is it that the so-called pro-choice gang is so afraid of the peaceful demonstrators outside abortuaries trying to actually help people make informed decisions about their own bodies?

I have more, but you get the picture...

In a crime such as...
...a pregnancy due to a rape,there are three people involved: The rapist,the woman,and the child.How come only the child is eligable for the death penalty? The judicial practice of defining humanity out of existence is sophistry of the highest order.

The killing of children through abortion is the slavery issue of the 20th Century,and like slavery,it is "a fire bell in the night",and will probably end up the same way that the practice of slavery did.Compare the "underground railroad" of the mid nineteenth century with the anti-abortion opposition today.The Underground Railroad transported run-away slaves to freedom in Canada.It was outlawed in the Dred Scott decision of Chief Judge Roger Taney.And some people of the North totally ignored it.They were criminals then,and heroes today.

This is why I have always considered Roe vs Wade as the "Dred Scott decision of the 20th Century".The fight goes on.

Touj, honey,
your statement is obviously facetious when you say "Second, I don't care how, when or where you won a gun. The 2nd amendment says we have a right to arm ourselves, after all, and I'm sure you won't care if I decide to own a bunch of hand-grenades, small rocket launchers, or mmanageable nuclear weapons, which I'll use judiciously, of course."

Isn't it interesting that the homosexuals lose it when you say allowing marriage between same sex couples will eventually lead to beastiality, and yet your arguments over guns and abortions are essentially the same straw man?

Like it or not, it is the extreme on both sides (evangelicals and moonbat lefties) that are destroying the greatest governmental experiment in history. You lefties need to realize that those of us who have read the constitution believe that we are responsible for ourselves and are willing to take the risks associated with that responibility. Those of you on the evangelical right need to realize that spiritual decisions, bad or good, are between the person and God. Sadly the definition of "God" has become so skewed that there is a different flavor for every person.

"THE DEBATE IS SETTLED"

Gee, why does THAT sound familiar?

Why is it that the virulant Left think they can win every debate by silencing the opposition.

Just as in Gore-Bull Warming, the Left has ended all debate on abortion by ending the debate with no debate.

The Leftie Losers in the MSM long ago conspired to shut up anti-abortion voices by keeping all Pro-Life events out of the news, no matter how large the gathering, or how convincing the argument.

I was convinced about the humanity of the child in the womb more than 20 years ago, and since that time, I have watched the science surrounding the pre-born, and have seen that it supports the Pro-Life side.

But what have the Leftist MSM done with this information? They have deliberately compartmentalized it, so that infertility doctors can still pay to place ads disguised as news, while maintaining abortion as a routine "procedure," done for "the health of the mother."

All they have to do is change the language, in their typical Orwellean manner. In their Leftie New Speak, the baby is always a fetus, an embryo, or a zygote, or worse, a choice.

I have noticed, however, that the women who seem to be actively pro abortion are usually long in the tooth, wear comfortable shoes, and are long past the time when they may be confronted with a "choice." But their willing accomplices in the MSM manage to slant their coverage of these Feminazi events to make these "ladies" appear normal.

Doc Tony: I think Robert was mixed up
when he thought the State performs abortions.

He confused the DNC with a D&C.

An easy mistake considering the character of the Democratic Party.

Quick edit - only ONE this week!
You wrote, "supporters of abortion rights must simultaneously assume that the convicted rapist is a person who has somehow managed to retain his full humanity..."

My edit would have read, "supporters of abortion rights must assume simultaneously that the convicted rapist is a person who has somehow managed to retain his full humanity..."

Your version splits-the-predicate.

Leave it to the woman
and God; a man who was not the father of that child has no right to meddle in that decision.

If asked by the woman who honestly wanted my opinion, I would not advise her to get an abortion; but I would advise her to consider the day in the future when she is married, it is Thanksgiving day, and her child opens the door to the adopted daughter who demands to know The Truth -- whereupon she, the rape victim, will be forced to disclose to the family that she was raped by her father and that she only gave up the baby for adoption on the understanding that she would never have to see it again.

Yes, this happens. Yes, in todays Open Adoption World, everybody believes shes GOTTARIGHT to Know -- regardless of what kind of damage her demand might do.

So when advising (or if you are a disinterested bystanding academic male, demanding) childbirth from a rape victim, be sure you advise her of ALL the potential fallout. Then trust her to make the decision. The act of rape is, as most women know, a matter of gaining power over a woman; the last thing she needs as a follow up is more men demanding that she remain under their power and control.

calm.Touj


My first wife had an abortion,and you are acting just as crazy .

If you are going through post abortion depression,there are plenty of places to turn for help.

Is Fox fair and balanced?
Employees Expose FOX NEWS’ Distortions

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/employees-expose-f ox-news-distortions



Mike, on target as usual!
Rick, no one likes a smarta$$, so lay off the editorial BS.

When you have no facts on your side, close the debate, declare it "settled", that's the ticket! Losers!

Choice
Rape is the one case where I do support abortion. In every other case a woman has already made a Choice that led to her pregnancy. Rape is a complete removal of that Choice.
The presumption of abortion is that a woman is chosing to end an unwanted pregnancy. I.e. she does not expect to have the ability or willingness to provide a happy and meaningful live for the child.
In cases of rape, you can safely presume that this feeling is extended to being horrified at having a reminder of a terrible experience. In that case, I am not convinced that forcing the woman to carry the child to term is good for her or the child.
Now, Abortion as Birth Control, seems to me that its a little late to be Respecting the woman's choice. I think focusing on the rape debate is honestly buying in to the strawman argument.

http://www.heartlink.org/directors/abortion/a000000071.cfm

Per the statistics above, approx 15,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest. Less than 1% per year.

In other words, 99% of abortions are caused by women engaging in risky behaviors that could have and should have known better. They made poor choices, yet the 1% of abortions keep us from engaging in reasonable criticism of those choices...

I have always believed ina woman's right
to chose. Fully informed consent does mean knowing ALL about something before doing/not doing it.
what I could NEVER understand is that the feminazis never WANT a woman to chose to have a baby.
When roe v wade was first passed, I THOUGHT it might be good. There have always been a few women who SHOULD NOT carry a child to term. (I am referring here to a personal story: woman HAD 15 children and was told another would KILL her, I think she should have been able to CONSIDER this option. At the time, it wasn't.) That the decision should be between HERSELF, HER husband and HER doctor. And, that it would be the OCCASIONAL abortion. The choice that was gravely made.
NOT THE NEAR GENOCIDE WE HAVE NOW. NOT THE MASS MURDER OF OUR FUTURE.

19 years ago ...
I had a vasectomy after our second child was born. Because I was married, my wife had to consent to the procedure (yeah, "procedure", right!). A friend told me to lie and say that I was single, but it was something my wife and I agreed to, so it wasn't a problem. How is it that a woman can control a man's reproductive options, but not vice versa? Enquiring minds want to know.

Great Article, Mr. Adams
Rapists rape as a form of power over the woman. Take away her choice. And then what does the woman do, decides to "assert her own power and choice, and aborts (i.e. kills) the baby.

Both acts are selfish. Both are wrong.

Ya AudiR10 better off killed
I guess it would be better to be killed, and avoid having to find out later that your were the product of rape...makes sense to me....(yesh!)

Better to kill them birth defects too, and old folks, so they don't have to suffer the inevitable pains of extreme old age, and the people with costly injuries, and illnesses... With enough killing many bad things in the world can be solved! I might even vote Dimocrt next election.

Every abortion is killing a human baby.

Just a thought...maybe after 15 kids she would figure out how the whole baby thing works and might avoid what leads to it.

Most are not needed.

FROG
I'm in total agreement with you. A few years ago, there was a case in Houston, TX, where a young couple, not married, were in their 20th week of pregnancy. The young woman wanted to abort, not so the young man. She convinced him, though, and asked him to jump on her abdomen until she miscarried. Since she ended up in the hospital, (yes, the child died), the authorities were contacted. The young man was arrested, charged, tried, and convicted for 2nd degree, and she got accolades and sympathy, along with charitable contributions and financial support from the state.

This whole I-have-a-right-to-choose-but-not-you-unless-I-have-the-baby-then-you-owe-me mentality is nuts!!

So far...
... the Lefty response to the article seems to be, essentially, that Dr. Adams has no right to an opinion on this matter.

Robert: "It is between her and if there is a husband "him" and God...the op ed writer has no place in that mix."

touj: "Just what every rape victime really wants: her choices about her life and her victimization dictated by Mike Adams."

(touj seems to have missed the fine distinction between expressing an opinion through logical argument, and dictating a person's choices. Understandable; he is a Lefty, and the Left has quite a history of not seeing that distinction.)

Both Bobbie and touj have expressed this perspective, which amusingly enough harkens back to this line from Dr. Adams's column:

"...maintaining the status quo will look a lot like winning a “debate” to those unaware of the extent of feminist opposition to the First Amendment."

And so it goes that the only cogent defense the Lefties try to mount for abortion rights constitutes a denial of Adams's right to freedom of speech/press on the topic.

When will Lefties learn to actually debate a point on the merits, rather than simply trying to silence everyone with whom they disagree?

What?
Er, what kind of criminal studies professor has women coming in to discuss abortions? The only thing I ever discussed with my professor was getting a recommendation.

?

tdub
I agree with you about abortions for rape victims, even though that doesn't square with my own belief that all life is precious to God. But what this really does is play into Dr. Adams point that some will use the most extreme cases to make their point. What this sometimes does is cause the vast majority of people to yield to a selected few.

Case in point, it is said that there are 43 million people without health care. In a nation of 300 million people that equates to less than 15% of the population. Further examination reveals that the number 43 million is not a static number. That is, from day to day, it is not the same 43 million that go uninsured. Some are temporarily between jobs and will gain insurance after being without insurance for only a brief period. Many others simply choose to not have coverage though the could easily afford it. But many on the left will use that large number for political advocacy that there is something inherently wrong with the system and government needs to take over the whole industry and provide it for all.

We must refrain from making national policy decision based on extreme cases.

Rape Victims: Part 1
As a pro-life person, I have to say that while I think that adoption is the BEST choice for an unwanted pregnancy, I do think that in the cases of rape or incest that I do not have the insight or wisdom to understand how carrying the child to term will affect the woman for the rest of her life. Nor do I know how an abortion will affect her. Only God knows (which makes my argument pretty much useless to most feminists, who don't really pay much attention to God) how monumental the decision really is. In those cases, let the person consult with their spiritual advisor and then make a decision. I think in 99% of those cases, it is better for the child to be adopted out, as living with the constant reminder of the rape is probably more than most women should have to do. Incestuous rape even more so. I don't advocate abortion in these cases, I just think that I don't know how I would handle it.

For pregnancies where the life of the mother is absolutely threatened (increasingly rare) and the child is unlikely to live through the birth anyway, I can state that after consulting with a priest (whatever your faith calls it, for me it is a bishop), you should be allowed to care for the life of the mother.


Rape Victims: Part 2
I think, however, that these situations are going to become so rare that we will, in the future, realize that adoption is a much better option. I also think that eventually we will be able to create an artificial womb that can be used in these situations, making any arguments about rape victims obselete. I have friends who want a child so badly that they would gladly raise any child they could adopt. Isn't it better to consider all life sacred and allow those who want more children (or a child at all) to adopt? I think that there are plenty of good and caring people who, if asked to, would gladly adopt a child produced by rape, even though they weren't planning on having any more of their own.

As a final note, I think that irreversible decisions, such as an abortion, should NOT be carried out by those who are in crisis state, which pretty much describes 99.99999999999999999% of all rape victims, and about 50% of all pregnant women to boot. You simply do not make rational decisions in those crisis states, and therefore should not be allowed to decide the fate of another living being.

How?
How do those opposed to abortion in cases of rape intend to force the victim to carry the pregnancy to term? Legislation? Abortion police? Imprisonment throughout pregnancy?

Even if all abortions (including rape, incest, threat to mother's life)are rendered illegal (and somehow enforced), some women will seek abortions in other countries. Will they be subject to prosecution on return? Will she be charged with murder?

not the point to argue
Mr Adams,
I'm mostly a "pro-life" person, but not always. Today I think you err by debating an extreme situation, and equating a person with that which will become a person after several months.
"Laura is a real, living and breathing entity"... and if she had been aborted, who would miss her? I don't mean to sound callous. I'm sure Ms Laura is a wonderful person, and loved by many today. But if the pregnancy of a rape would have been ended by a simple procedure soon after the vent, the mother would have been spared the pain of carrying a pregnancy to term only to end it with the sorrow of having to give up the child.
I like to remember the position expressed years ago by the much-maligned Senator Dan Quayle: "Reasonable people demand reasonable restrictions upon abortion." If pro-life extremists wouldn't insist on banning abortions even for such extreme situations as rape, we might be farther along to "reasonable" restrictions that most of the country would find agreeable.


Peace_my_friend ...
you have a point there. And like our liberal brethren, let's really take it to the extreme. I think we need to put a limit on how much money can be spent to keep someone alive. I mean, those unhealthy people are driving up my health care costs, dammit! My two sisters who went through lengthy and painful breast cancer treatment should have just been offed after say $25K worth of medical care. I mean, sheesh, with the money that was saved on medical care, the state could have provided a good nanny for their kids. Beside, who wants children to have to endure watching their mommies go through chemo and radiation? There was the recovery time from masectomies and reconstruction surgeries. Those kids suffered horrendously from having to learn care and compassion for someone who is ill.

So, if we kill, sorry, let's sanitize that. If we euthanize the old, the sick, the lame, you know, the worthless, how much better our society will be. No more preferential treatment like handicap parking spaces. Shoot, we can even rescind the ADA! Wow, things could be so much better if only ...

Debating the margins
The case of pregnancy due to rape is actually pretty rare. It does happen, but the high-stress circumstances actually don't favor impregnation. And of course, the violent nature of the transaction is exactly what the proponents of legal abortions need for their argument -- they're justifying a horrific, violent act (a woman aborting her own child), and need a horrific, violent act to balance it.

Though Dr. Adams has agreed to play on this slanted playing field and has neatly scored a touchdown, the actual contest needs to take place over the ordinary circumstance, not the extraordinary.

Simply put -- a large majority of Americans will agree that abortion ought to be legal in cases of incest, rape, or when the mother's life is endangered by the pregnancy. Remove those marginal cases, and the large majority lands on the other side; most Americans agree that abortion should NOT be legal in other instances.

And the proponents of abortion know this, so they'll never agree to having the question asked properly. Watch their statistics carefully; the one's they'll produce will never, ever control for those instances, but will mix them in with all other cases, because that's the only way they even have a chance to deceive the public. Separate out the marginal cases, and abortion is very, very unpopular.

Still, Dr. Adams is correct: when a rape has occurred, and pregnancy has resulted, the baby is arguably the only GOOD thing the transaction has produced. Everything else about a rape is bad. So let the baby live. THAT is decency.

Oh, and I forgot one of ...
the most important aspects of euthanization. We can stop wasting all the money on research for new medicines, equipment, and procedures and focus it where it will do the most good. New energy technology! That should help make the idea sell, huh?

OMG, a first
I actually allowed an apostrophe to slip into a plural in my last post. I'm just so incredibly embarrassed.

In the sentence: "Watch their statistics carefully; the one's they'll produce will never, ever control for those instances..."

"One's" should be "ones."

Eeek.

I hate this subject
with a passion. The only person I will discuss it with at any length is my wife. I refuse to argue about it with anyone.

Here's how I feel about it, like it or lump it. If my daughter gets raped and impregnated, and wishes to have an abortion, she has my blessing and total support. If my daughter gets 'knocked up' because she and some s'head get horny, and she chooses abortion, she can kiss our relationship goodbye. By the way, the s'head better get out of town.

If my son is out and about and becomes a part of a 'knocking up', and refuses to own up to his responsibilities, he can kiss our relationship goodbye. He's also a s'head and should probably stay out of the way of the girl's father.

That's it. That's how I feel about the abortion issue. Save any arguments for someone who cares.

mike adams
"Would it have been more insensitive and indecent to a) tell Laura’s mother to have the baby (as someone seems to have done) or to b) tell Laura she should have been aborted."


-or c) keep your mouth shut because it is none of your business.

answer: c

does anyone else
think that dr adam's story is bogus from the beginning. do you really believe a young feminist would visit his office to discuss abortion.

-"Two of her friends had already had abortions though she had not."

- well then i guess she hasn't ever needed one. but this statement makes your story yet more incredulous. if we are to believe that a young feminist would visit dr adams that is one thing but there is no way this girl spoke of her friends' abortions.

Misses the point
A poster calling himself "Bernoldus Niemandt" poses what he claims to be a dilemma for abotion's opponents:

"How do those opposed to abortion in cases of rape intend to force the victim to carry the pregnancy to term? Legislation? Abortion police? Imprisonment throughout pregnancy?"

This is completely irrelevant. The argument about rape victims has been posed hypothetically, so many times that we can recite it in our sleep. We're just producing a contrary hypothetical to rebut it. If a hypothetical can justify abortion, a hypothetical can oppose it, right? or are you just trying even harder to determine the outcome by moving the goal posts?

"What about rape cases?" us not really an argument, actually. It's a form of special pleading, a logical fallacy resting on the emotional response to the violence of rape. "How could anybody tell a rape victim to have her baby?" is the emotion-laden query. Any attempt to assess the situation through rational ethics is immediately charged with cold-heartedness. The argument, itself, is part of the left's attempt to avoid any real debate (which is their 2nd favorite tactic. The 1st favorite is character assassination.)

So questions about the practicality of enforcement are truly beyond the scope of the debate. Sorry. But, nice try.

Adoption
There are something like 120,000 children awaiting adoption in the US, according to figures published by the department of Health and Human Services. That's a lot of kids who will in all liklihood grow up without parents of any sort. If you were adopting, would you want a child whose father was a rapist? It's horrible, particularly for the child, but in reality most people would not. And one could forgive a mother giving a child of someone who had raped her up. Ultimately, it is yet another tragedy of human life. But one that Mike Adams does not and, if he's lucky, will not ever know anything about. So he should keep schtum and let those in that horrible position decide for themselves.

What a shock!
TR jumps in with the "Mike Adams has no right to an opinion on this subject, and should therefore be silent."

One more Leftist who can't argue the merits and therefore just wants the opposition to shut up; I'm so surprised I think I'll do something shocking, like driving to work.

chopper john
"Here's how I feel about it, like it or lump it. If my daughter gets raped and impregnated, and wishes to have an abortion, she has my blessing and total support. If my daughter gets 'knocked up' because she and some s'head get horny, and she chooses abortion, she can kiss our relationship goodbye. By the way, the s'head better get out of town.

If my son is out and about and becomes a part of a 'knocking up', and refuses to own up to his responsibilities, he can kiss our relationship goodbye. He's also a s'head and should probably stay out of the way of the girl's father."




- i like how you keep the government out of it

TR and reading comprehension
Mr. Adams NEVER said the young lady that came to speak to him was a feminist. What, now your omniscient?

traitorous self joins the parade
Robert and touj have already reproduced the left's mantra this morning, and TS joins the parade.

The discussion is about whether rape justifies abortion. The left invariably attempts to prevent the debate, by assuming their position is the default, and labeling anybody who engages in it a busybody. Thus, they fulfill their prime mission, preventing rational thought.

Dr. Adams already addressed this common fallacy in his second paragraph. And Fergus McClennan addressed it very well in his 8:11 AM post.

Sorry, Traitor. Discussing ethics is everybody's right, and the outcome of these discussions is relevant to policy. I'm further sorry to inform you that your opinion is not the culture's default position, and that discussion of ethics will take place regardless of whether you think it's our business or not. I know it's distressing to you, but reasoned morality really is important to some of us.

Hey inkling ...
better watch out for Rick the quick (edit). You missed on abortion (abotion). Yeah, like I have right to correct others mispellings! My glass house is nothing but shards.

When I counseled
women regarding abortion, one hundred percent(!) of the women who called the helpline were being forced into it. FORCED. Isn't that something like rape?? Forced by their dads, boyfriends, and husbands. Some were forced by their moms, but, for the most part, it was the men doing the forcing. Gee. How conveeeeeeenient.....for the men. Wake up women. You're all being duped. Stand up and be a real woman. That means acknowledging and embracing the nurturer within. The after effects of abortion are forever. And the many deaths due to complications of abortion and suicide are underreported. I've never read an obit that included that the woman killed herself because of the effect that abortion had on her life. Yet, it happens all the time. As long as the anti life people can remain sanctimonious about everyone having their own "choice" they can continue to choose to make money off of hurting women.

Ah yes, the old 'rape victim' canard
I love it when the blood-thirsty lovers of infantcide try to justify abortion on demand by using the "but, but what about rape victims?!"

The Centers for Disease Control receives information on about 2/3rds of all abortions performed in the United States (only 2/3rds because not all abortions need to be reported). According to the data they've collected, less than 1% of all abortions are performed on women who became pregnant as a result of rape.

Justifying the other 99% merely because of the circumstance of 1% is ridiculous.

The sad fact of the matter is that kooky commies on the left use abortion as birth control. According to the CDC, over 1/3rd of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one prior abortion, and 17% of abortions are performed on women who have had at least two prior abortions.

Abortion is nothing more than a means for heartless, bloodthirsty, subhuman wenches to abdicate responsibility for their irresponsible behavior, and instead blame it on the most innocent among us. It is no different than if someone got drunk, got into their car, ran into a 5-year-old and paralyzed him, then shot the kid in the head because of their own irresponsible behavior.

ferg
typically, when attributing someone with a quote by putting quotation marks around their words it is important to make sure that the statement is exact, or even close to what they said. otherwise you are misquoting them, a republican trick but a trick none-the-less.
i never said he has no right to voice an opinion due to his ignorance. he was asking about a specific incident, which was none of his business, provided he didn't knock the little hussy up.

Hey traitor man
There are some in the population who think that they ought to be able to kill their wives if they cross them, and that the evil government should just keep their nose out of their business. Methinks we can count you among them? After all, we wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite, now would we?

Inkling, again ..
Freudian slip? You refer to TR as TS. I'm assuming in your mind that you made the leap from Traitorus Republican to Traitorous Simpleton. Am I corrent?

A leftist manipulating statistics.
What a surprise.

I'll give Critical Bill 2 merit points for attempting a reasoned argument, which is a first for the leftists in this thread. But it's not a very good one.

CB writes: "There are something like 120,000 children awaiting adoption in the US, according to figures published by the department of Health and Human Services. That's a lot of kids who will in all liklihood grow up without parents of any sort."

If you were to research a little deeper, you would also discover the following:

1) Most of those 120,000 are not babies. Usually, parents wanting to adopt prefer to adopt an infant, because bonding is a lot less complicated. The offspring produced by rape would not have that problem, obviously.

2) The adoption process has been unnecessarily hindered by liberals insisting that cross-racial adoptions never take place. This has resulted in a glut of African-American babies, and a corresponding number of white parents who can't find an infant to adopt. Get the left to stop meddling, and the number of unparented orphans will drop.

The evidence you'll need to convince you that what I've said is genuine can be found by researching what it takes for a white couple to adopt a baby. They're usually told there are none to adopt, they have to wait years, and they wind up paying tens of thousands of dollars. As a result, I've personally known something like a dozen Christian parents in the US who have adopted foreign babies, from China, Rumania, Russia, Bulgaria, etc. If this seems as awful to you as it does to me, find your nearest liberal and thank him.

Critical Bill
I want to thank you for being the only one from your side of the fence to actually address the *merits* of the debate; well done. For this reason, I wanted to pop a response in to you before heading off to work.

Your point about the kids waiting for adoption is a decent one, but unfortunately, the reason there are so many kids in adoption limbo is NOT that there are not enough would-be adoptive families, but rather the incredible amounts of red tape, and the numerous obstacles our wonderful government has put in place to "protect" the little darlings. My brother and his wife sought out an adoption, looked at the incredible hurdles they would have to vault, and elected to go to Russia. They spent the better part of a year - and the better part of $50,000 in bribes to Russian gov't officials - and still adopted my nephew in a time that would have appeared blindingly short to U.S. officials. He is now nearly eight, and a great kid.

I also find your assertion that no one wants to adopt the child of a rapist curious; isn't it the default position of the Left that Nurture, and not Nature, rules? Shouldn't a child of a rapist be just as good as any other, given the proper upbringing?

Anyway, good to debate with you... cheers!

also...
the Catholic Church has never regarded abortion as anything but the gravest of sins. You cannot be a Catholic and anti-life. Period. If you want to talk the talk, you must walk the walk.

TR
Since I have yet to actually get in the car, I will manage this one response:

You are correct; in my haste, I mistyped, and neglected to put the word "argument" following the bit in quotes. To wit, I intended to characterize the nature of your argument via the bit in quotes, and not to suggest thatt those were your actual words. However, in my haste, I muffed it, and you had a valid point in response.

That said, the characterization of your argument stands. You can parse it however you like, but "none of his business" means you think he should shut up. You don't get to determine that, and since he made a reasoned argument, it looks ever and on as though you are simply terrified to actually debate the points Dr. Adams makes.

Have a nice day, everyone!

It was intentional (Frog)
If you've followed my postings over the past several weeks, I've taken to referring to a particularly odious liberal who posts here as "Traitorous (reference to his opponents)." Like so many liberals who frequent Kos and similar leftist circular pleasure fests, this fellow has chosen a nickname the mere repetition of which fills the internet bandwidth with liberal tropes. I choose not to participate in their dishonest attempts to make their lies the default position of the culture. Ergo, I call him "traitorous self", or "TS" for short. He hates it, which encourages me.

beowolfe
"There are some in the population who think that they ought to be able to kill their wives if they cross them, and that the evil government should just keep their nose out of their business."


-what a lame argument. the wife in your stupid little comparison is a person, not a potential person.

Foreign adoptions
Great point, inkling, about the undue requirements for adopitons in the US. I have a friend who is currently going through the adoption process. They are adopting a Guatemalan child.

There are ways to achieve infant adoptions in the US in record time if the couple desiring to adopt can be flexible. By being Foster Parents, one can circumvent the normal process. I work with a gentleman whose wife quit work so she would be available to Foster infants when the need arose. Apparently, Fostered infants younger than 6 months cannot be placed in daycare so one of the Foster parents has to be available 24/7 (I'm not sure if that is a state requirement or not). In a span of six months, they have taken in two infants, actually bringing them home from the hospital after birth and are in the process of adopting both of them.

Adoption etc
Thanks for two polite replies - not something I am used to! But Ikling and Fergus are among the less hysterical posters here so I ought not be surprised. In fact, the number of children awaiting adoption has fallen consistently in recent years. Figures going further back are harder to find, but I would not be surprised to find that the number has fallen hugely over the last, say, 40 years. There are other factors at work beyond abortion, which has undoubtedly helped. 40 years ago a white woman having a child with a black man was taboo and very often resulted in children being given up; now, it is so widespread as to no longer be an issue. Nurture is important, but nature is undeniable. A great pal of my mothers adopted two boys, both of whom came from abusive backgrounds. Brothers, the elder one was 3 when he was adopted, the younger one no more than 6 months old. They have been uncontrollable, both have physically attacked their adoptive parents, both have stolen from them, trashed their house many times, been in serious trouble with the law (both are currently in prison) and both have had police restraining orders to prevent them from approaching their adoptive parents - who are two of the sweetest, kindest, most honest people you could ever meet. Nurture only goes so far; I would not adopt the child of a rapist, no matter how young the child is. Sorry, but that's the truth.

On adoption:
As pointed out above, nearly all children awaiting adoption are not infants. Most of those children are adolescents that come either from families who have died or have been imprisoned.

Also as pointed out the adoption system in the US is totally screwed up, mostly by kooky leftists policies that drive the cost of adopting in the US through the roof. My aunt and uncle adopted a baby, but because the cost of adopting babies in the US is prohibitively high (well over $50,000...if you're lucky enough to find a baby up for adoption at all), they had to adopt one from China.

It gets worse when you start consider the "rights of the mother" garbage -- these women who put their kids up for adoption, then 2 years down the road they go to court to win back custody of their child. No one wants to deal with that.

So we get what we have now -- very few babies up for adoption, and those that are either come at an enourmous premium that no one can afford, or come with the serious threat of having to spend years in court fighting with the mother who gave teh kid up for adoption.

Traitor boy
"what a lame argument. the wife in your stupid little comparison is a person, not a potential person."

According to every single geneticist and biologist on Earth, regardless of their views on abortion, there is no such thing as a "potential person". A zygote, and embryo, or a fetus, according to actual scientists, is no less an individual and unique human being that a baby, child, adolescent, adult, or geriatric. This, of course, is in fact part of the justification of your friend in arms, Peter Singer, in his argument that the "right" of abortion ought to be extended beyond birth.

In short, the only one with the "lame" argument here is, unsurprisingly, you.

Fergus & CB: The other reason there

are so many yet to be adopted children in the US is that so many parents looking to adopt do want infants.

Of the approx. 120,000 children awaiting adoption in the US, most are not infants.


GOODBYE LIBERALS
Liberals are going down, literally.

Liberals are selected against, a la Darwinism, for these reasons:

1. Liberals support and promote abortions to a far greater extent than conservatives do. The more abortions liberals get, the fewer of them we have. Conservatives win the evolution game.

2. Liberals support and promote homosexuality, and denigrate families and family values.
Conservatives win the evolution game here too.

3. Liberals kill each other at a far higher rate than do conservatives. The murder rate in counties won by Hanoi John Kerry were far higher than the murder rate in counties won by George Bush.

Liberals lose the evolution game, time and time again. Liberal losers select against themselves.

Adoption numbers
I'll go out on a limb here, but I am guessing that most of those 120,000 kids who are up for adoption were at one time babies. Hell, I'll go even further and guess that they ALL were once. OK, not all were up for adoption when they were under the age of 1 but a fair proportion will have been, and most will have been in and out of foster homes all of their lives. Just because they aren't babies that doesn't make it any less tragic...

beowulfe writes:
On adoption:
As pointed out above, nearly all children awaiting adoption are not infants. Most of those children are adolescents that come either from families who have died or have been imprisoned.

Also as pointed out the adoption system in the US is totally screwed up, mostly by kooky leftists policies that drive the cost of adopting in the US through the roof. My aunt and uncle adopted a baby, but because the cost of adopting babies in the US is prohibitively high (well over $50,000...if you're lucky enough to find a baby up for adoption at all), they had to adopt one from China.

About a year after my wife and I got married we decided to apply to be foster parents with an ultimate goal of adopting a child. We approached the Texas Department of Children and Family Services about applying, and were told because we had both been previously married we would have to wait until after our third anniversary, but if it had been our first marriage we could apply after just one year. We were, also, told our application would be more deeply investigated than a first marriage couple to determine our "stability as a couple." We thought about it, and said "The hell with it," and decided to not go forward. Now that is really screwed up. At the time there were and still are thousands of children needing help. I imagine Texas has lost a lot more prospective adoptive and foster parents, because of this inanity.

Adoption in the US is very difficult
as the pool of children is very limited. The reason why so many people seek overseas adoptions is failure to adopt successfully in the US.

I don't think people should suffer for their immaturity, criminal victim status, or just stupid, so I would not change the first-trimester limit on abortions. Any procedure after 3 months is murder.

But I saw my future grandchild at 5 weeks: no one called it a "fetus," not even the dr., and it had a head, neck, arms and hands, torso, legs and feet, and was a recognizable human even at such an early state.

Well,
In truth, no one should “look a rape victim in the eye and tell her she must have her baby.” By all means though, you should look the victim in the eye and say, “Please let me help.” But another truth is that the rape scenario plays a very small part in the abortion debate.

PS. Do any of you folks recall Dr. Adam’s article on the U of D ruckus? I claimed that he didn’t have the whole story and was blowing it out of proportion. Well, in yesterday’s Wilmington paper, it seems that most of the parties involved, from all sides of the question claimed that their position was misunderstood or misrepresented. They all seem to want to talk it out and none were happy with outside intervention.

Profitable Infanticide (PI)
should be the correct name for Planned Parenthood (PP).

They pull in the money not to counsel women to carry to term and give birth but to pay for procedures which result in a gruesome mess on the table or on the floor.

How many customers are counselled to nurture the living creature in their wombs?

They refuse to say, because thew number would be pitifully small. They trade in guilt so that when a PI 'customer' leaves the store without signing up or hopping on the table, she leaves confused, full of guilt and most probably afraid of he reaction of the person or persons who sent her in to the PI facility.

The PI executives make a handsome living trading on feminism and the fictitious equality which the supposed Choice gives to the donors, many of whom have their own guilt trips on which they had earlier embarked.