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Monday, September 24, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
No Perfect People Allowed
by Mike Adams
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When I was a kid growing up in Clear Lake City (just outside of Houston, TX) I went to University Baptist Church. UBC grew rapidly under the leadership of an awesome pastor named Henry Adrion III and his equally awesome wife, Pat. It was easy to pay attention to the passionate sermons Brother Henry gave every Sunday. But that was before Kathy Covington joined the church with her sister, Kayla, and her parents, Mary Lou and Clarke.

Like all the other grade school boys who were distracted by Kathy, I was pretty certain she was the most perfect girl ever to walk the face of the Earth. But she kept getting a little more perfect every year. By the end of high school, things just got downright ridiculous. She was star of the senior play, homecoming queen, senior class favorite, senior class president, a top 15 student (of around 3300) and, of course, she was voted “most beautiful.”

So when I met Kathy’s husband at my ten-year high school reunion in 1993, I wasn’t too surprised that he had a lot going for him, too. Good-looking, intelligent, and athletic, I was also unsurprised that John Burke was a pastor. Kathy had always been a very religious (and spiritual) girl and a fine example to everyone at Clear Lake High School.

Fourteen years after meeting John, I got a copy of his book in the mail. My mom sent it to me so I figured I had better read it. Otherwise, I feared I would risk not getting any brownies or chocolate cookies when I come home for Christmas this year. I was less-than-enthusiastic about adding to an already over-sized “to read” list. However, when I finished John’s book, I quickly realized that I had just read the second truly outstanding book among the several dozen I’ve polished off in 2007 - the other being Blue Like Jazz by Don Miller.

John Burke, the man who married the perfect girl, wrote No Perfect People Allowed with a deep sense of sympathy for those who are suffering in the wake of what he calls a “three-decade binge on self” which has the country “vomiting up the consequences” in the early part of the 21st Century.

One of the most disturbing aspects of this national binge on self has been the widespread neglect of children. But Burke points out that there has been much more than mere neglect of children in recent years in America. There is a disdain for children who are all-too-often seen as obstacles to self-fulfillment for status-oriented Americans. If you aren’t convinced, note how children were depicted in such an innocent fashion in decades past and contrast that with the way children are often portrayed as evil in Hollywood today.

Before the sexual revolution of the sixties, making “evil child” horror films would have been unthinkable. But, since the onset of the sixties, that has certainly changed.

Consider the following movies: Children of the Damned (1964), Rosemary’s Baby (1968), The Exorcist (1973), It’s Alive! (1974), Look What’s Happened to Rosemary’s Baby (1976), The Omen (1976), Carrie (1976), Exorcist II: The Heretic (1977), It Lives Again (1978), Damian: Omen II (1978), Halloween (1978), The Children (1980), The Final Conflict (1981), Halloween II (1981), Firestarter (1984), Children of the Corn (1984), and so on.

Given that we have so dramatically turned our backs on our children in recent years, it is unsurprising that so many are experiencing a crisis of trust when it comes to social institutions such as the church. I am convinced that this is nothing more than a basic transference of distrust. Individuals who have torn relationships with their earthly fathers will have a much harder time placing trust in their Heavenly Father.

John Burke understands this. That’s why he goes to great lengths to ensure that seekers and doubters are welcomed in his church. We should all do the same. Remember that it was after John the Baptist met and baptized Jesus that he sent someone from prison to ask Jesus whether he was really the One or whether the people should expect another (see Matthew 11:2-3). If John the Baptist could have doubt because he did not understand why Jesus was doing things exactly the way he was then what does that say about us?

We must also recognize that the 21st Century church must have something better to offer than does the new religion of multi-culturalism, which preaches mere “tolerance.” Christianity is indeed unique in that it offers something better. The Buddhist eight-fold path, the Hindu doctrine of karma, the Jewish covenant, and the Muslim Code are all lacking one important thing that is unique to Christianity: Grace, which says that God loves us just as we are. We don’t have to “earn” it.

But John Burke understands what the pastors of so many failing churches do not: We must accept people as they are while simultaneously insisting that once they enter the church they will not stay that way.

And who could argue that most of us need to change? The society cannot change until individuals change. The social statistics certainly cry out for change. In the wake of the Sexual Revolution, the divorce rate tripled (when comparing 1962 to 1981). Over 40% of teens will be pregnant by age 20 and 80% of those pregnancies will be out of wedlock. Looking at all age groups, our illegitimacy rate is around 33%. And what was called “free love” in the 60s became “herpes” in the 70s and “AIDS” in the 80s.

We all need to recognize our own role in the downfall of this society as humble members of a united church. As Burke points out, we are all in a broken state of wanting to play God. The only difference between individuals lies in the willingness to acknowledge this brokenness. Just like the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, most people do not.

When C.S. Lewis said that pain is God’s megaphone to a deaf world, he was reminding us that there really is no greater motivator for change. I am pleased that I was given John Burke’s book in a year during which I have suffered an unprecedented amount of pain. The portions on our attitudes towards other religions and towards homosexuals have given me cause to consider some changes I need to make in my rhetoric as a public commentator.

No Perfect People Allowed might just have been the perfect book at the perfect time for this imperfect reader. I urge you to read it, too. But you might not be the same when you are done.

Mike S. Adams would like to thank Ashley Herzog for motivating him to write this column simply by pointing out some of his imperfections. John Burke would probably like for Mike Adams to encourage his readers to visit the website of Gateway Community Church in Austin, TX.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Sorry, Dr Adams
Children as "evil" is not so new as you may think. One of my favorite movies is "The Bad Seed" with Patti McCormick made in 1956. While looking for its release date, I stumbled upon another Bad Seed movie released in 1934. Such an idea is *common knowledge* to explain the inexplicable.
Decline in church attendance in America?
Pedophilia priests
whoremongering pastors
Church building funds that NEVER build a new church. etc, etc.
Put succinctly: hypocrisy. People STILL have religion, just don't know where to go.

Willow
John Burke worked at my former church, Willow Creek Community Church.

Willow Creek embraces liberal feminism (man bad, woman good) attitude. Willow also supports divorce. Willow's senior pastor is Bill Hybels, former President Clinton's spiritual advisor.

I tired of the men-are-bad messages, so I stopped attending sermons and ministries, of which John was an Executive Director.

Maybe we aren't 'selfish' enough?
I realize that it is the prevailing fashion for people to put selflessness on a pedestal. It may also be presumed to be the central thesis of the book (which I haven't yet read) mentioned in this article. Most of the teachings of organized religion also praise selflessness - in fact, without that concept, there wouldn't be much organization in organized religion.

But, is it possible that we are actually drowning in an orgy of selflessness? Consider that selflessness is the 'enabling agent', the gateway to:
* the welfare state
* multiculturism
* socialism
* affirmative action

Consider some of the most selfish actions that a human being can commit (and I'm guilty of them all):
* getting an education
* working to improve one's own life
* creating one's own biological children
* putting one's family first

By my definition, a male who abandons his biological children is truly selfless! It is an inversion of our morality (and language) that defines such actions as selfish.

This isn't just a linguistic or semantic interpretation. The 'selfless' mindset is what gives moral permission for people to abdicate their own responsibilities.

For example, if a person volunteers precious, productive years in 'selfless' efforts to help the 3rd World - surely their 'nobility' entitles them to have others pay for their medical care?

Imagine if everyone indulged in their 'selfless' fantasies. Can anyone seriously expect utopian results from such a worldview.

Non-profit good, profit bad
Why do most people instinctively feel "non-profit good, profit bad", to badly paraphrase the Orwellian "four legs good, two legs bad"?

That's because self-interest has become a dirty word in our lexicon, despite the fact that it is honest, consistent with human nature and the source of productive capitalism.

This is a philosophical dichotomy that causes us to 'feel' our way towards huge mistakes - with the noblest intentions at heart and the counterfeit currency of altruism. As a result, we 'feel' that Public Education is the only way that we can ensure a quality education. Or, we just hate the idea that doctors, nurses, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies make a profit while providing life-saving services and products. So, we 'feel' our way towards Universal Health Care.

The result: we pretend to be altruistic, and fake our way through life. Since our affluence comes from actions taken in our self-interest, we feel guilty for our success.

We claim altruism as a Value - but secretly value our affluence - setting ourselves up for guilt over our well-deserved high standard of living. So, the Joy of attaining our real value (earned through hard work and careful risk-taking) has to be hidden.

Perversely, we honor philanthropy over well-earned wealth. We seem to forget that the process of earning wealth is actually more difficult than the process of giving some of it away. The process of earning wealth also directly or indirectly contributes much more to 'society' than a wealthy person's philanthropy.

What is it in human nature that sets us up for these contradictions? Why are we so susceptible to the mostly manufactured aura of selflessness? If we could answer that, we would have a good understanding of the instinctive dislike that many people have of the profit motive.

Perhaps it might also give us some insight into the allure of socialism.
-------------end of excerpt----------------------
http://voice.townhall.com

Firefly
Not sure if you read these things, Mike, but if you get the chance you should watch the TV series "Firefly". It only lasted 1/2 season in 2002, but you can get it on Netflix or for $25 on sale for the entire 14 episodes.

You remind me in some respects of Shepherd Book. Book is a preacher with a certain affinity for guns.

In the Jaynestown episode, Book has a run in with River. River is a super genius who runs across Book's bible and starts "fixing" it. False logistics, over 5,000 species of mammal on a boat, Noah's ark.

Book tells River, "It's not about making sense, its about having something to believe in. You don't fix faith. It fixes you."

One of the best dialogs on modern TV going with respect to religion in modern times.

Then, River runs into Book later and runs away screaming. Why? Because Book's hair is "frightening". It's a humorous moment but an illustrative one that no matter how intelligent any of us are, we all have moments of irrationality. All intelligence has its limits.

Book is portrayed as a strong character who has his spiritual troubles but also becomes a trusted advisor. Not too many shows on TV these days take religion that serious.

Watch the way Hollywood portrays Book when he is preaching. He's not mean. He's tough. He's unerring. But mean no.

Then read some Ann Coulter. Watch some Shepherd Book.

Compare and contrast and ask yourself, where are you? Shepherd Book is not a a**hole. Which is more than can be said for anyone on this sight professing to be a Christian.






Selflessness is a DOUBLE fraud
Why?

Because, in order to believe in selflessness, we have to defraud ourselves into believing that:

1) Selflessness is a virtue
2) Humans are selfless creatures

If the above statements were true, then Communism would've succeeded. It didn't!

voice of reason
"...a male who abandons his biological children is truly selfless!".

Selfless: having, exhibiting, or motivated by no concern for oneself; unselfish.

"It is an inversion of our morality...that defines such acts as selfish."

I doubt I'm the only one bewildered by your "definition". Will you enlighten us?

Open-minded, tolerant, accepting
Drivebyliberal:

"What example are you setting Mike? Why would any lost soul, liberal or otherwise, find anything here even remotely more hopeful then their desperate life?"

Seek and you shall find.

"My 1 purpose on this web site has been to advocate for change. You cannot entice people of their own free will to want to be like you, think like you, aspire to your religion when Ann Coulter is flag bearer."

*snort*

"There are no Christians here. Town Hall is a cess pool of hate. It is black with perfect condemnation of liberals. A perfect condemnation that God instructs us not to have. We are never to think in our hearts that someone is forever lost while they walk this earth. We are to stern but open to redemption of any and all. Our's is an incessant, non-stop messenger service purpose."

Open-minded tolerant aceeptingness.

Perhaps driveby, you would not look so foolish if you took your own advice.

Drivebyp and Voice of R
Who are you people? What is it you want? There are no Christians here at Town Hall?? How could you possibly know that as a fact? Are you God Almighty and have omniscient powers? And raising children is not the ultimate act of selflessness? Surely, you haven't raised any children of your own, because you do not have a clue as to the sacrifice it takes to raise a child, (or 3!)

Jesus came into the world
to save sinners. The only problem He would have today is finding anybody who believes he or she is a sinner.

Yesterday our priest announced that for the first time in 15 years our food pantry had closed down last week and would probably be closed this week too. He announced last Sunday that supplies were low and urged people to contribute. Hardly anybody did. Let George Do It, they thought, I need all my money for Super Grande Lattes and more Tunes, cell phones for my toddlers and my seventeenth pair of new shoes. So let somebody else feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the afflicted, and so on. Jesus did not mean ME. So the result is that there is a sign on our door that says WE APOLOGIZE BUT THE FOOD BANK IS CLOSED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. Shameful and disgraceful. But in a church where they do not recognize strangers or welcome new people, inevitable.

I agree that it is our Christian duty to act as examples to others. That is what I try to do, although I am not even sure I am perfectible far less anywhere near perfect. But it is also our duty to do what we can. If you cannot do everything, that does not mean you need not do anything. After the service some people went two blocks to the big hypermarket and came back with bags of groceries. They at least had the grace to be ashamed.

Christians vs. puppets of satan
It's common for puppets of satan to try to convince Christians that they really aren't Christians - that they are satanic pigs (with hopes that the Christians will give up Christianity and join them in satanism).

AudiR10
I think the crux of the problem may lie in the fact that the more we depend on written laws of the land to tell us what we can and can't do in our everyday lives, when there are such things as hate crimes, and when money is the motivator for stealing our freedom then the "unwritten rules" become less and less important. In our government's haste on both the local and national level to regulate every single tiny thing, and in the legal professions's lust for money we find that many people will behave hte way they do because there is no specific law against it. Yet.
As far as Drive By goes, I don't think it's hateful to print or speak the truth. Just because an arsonist yells fire doesn't mean it's not going to get hot PDQ. Would it help if Hillary or Obama were the messengers telling us that this country is in grave danger because of the sense of entitlement our citizens have developed since The New Deal? No, they would be driven out of office by the hordes of "I want" folks who won't work for a better life. As far as Chritians on the right, seems to me the left and right both have much to apologize for. Ann Coulter speaks the truth, but with language meant to purposely distract with anger. George Soros has bought the Democratic party and vilifies a man by calling him the worst name you can call a true-hearted military man; a betraying traitor. Seems to me there is plenty of blame to go around because the people of this country have been taught that "think bad, drone good."

Driveby writes:"There are No Christians
This observer suspects that you have a skewed notion of what Christianity is all about. To correct these errors in your thinking, I submit the following: First, One doesn't get to heaven by works. (See Ephesians 2:9,10.) One obtains salvation by following Romans 10:9. Having done this, then one must come unto the knowledge of the truth and/or be transformed by the renewing of one's mind/ walk by the spirit. (1 Timothy 2:4; Romans 12:2, Galatians 5) These involve works.They also involve great change in how one thinks and behaves. And it is an ongoing effort. As to TH being a cesspool of hate for liberals, there are two considerations. As to the rank and file liberal, the scripture says that, "only by pride comes contention." JC of Nazareth commisioned us to preach the gospel. But if folks like yourself refuse to pay attention, it is because of the sin of pride. That's on you. But there is still time to repent. As to the second consideration, let me bring your attention to to Proverbs 6:12-19. This is a description of the seed of the devil. It is most unfortunate that they have been, and continue to run wild in our society. For them, it's too late. They crossed the line. You can't change seed.

golly
What a swell article. Here I thought it was going to be about what a great athlete (could have gone pro) or terrific musician (could have been a star), but instead it is about the perfect girl. No, it’s about the wonderful, Godly man she married. No, it’s about, you guessed it, how liberals ruined everything. Just look, they made horror movies. Just think, in the good old days before movies were invented, this sort of thing never happened. And the statistics, oh the statistics, they never mislead. Gee, if only we could turn back the clock to the good old days. Those wascally wabbits, I mean liberals; oh woe to us.

anti-socialist
I love your new theme. I don’t buy it of course; but when it comes to puppets, they never know that it’s someone else pulling the strings. So sure, there may be strings tied to my arms and legs; but just maybe they’re tied to you too.

Stand your ground.
Mike. Interesting article. Pay no mind to drive-by, he is too busy condemning all for being less righteous then himself to recognize the signs of spiritual growth when they surface. There is a place for stark (not harsh) criticisim. Else Jesus would never have declared that the Pharisees were whited sepulchers, or pronounced “woe” on the lawyers. Even so, Jesus broke with convention and supped with tax collectors and other social pariahs. He never tolerated or approved of their sins, in fact he warned of there consequences and called men from them to repentance. Following in this path will bring you condemnation from modern man.

Tripe
The problem is not too little emphasis on children it is too MUCH. The marriage relationship is to come before that of parent in the Biblically ordered family. How many divorces are there these days due to what could almost be termed marital abandonment with soccer mom volunteering at little Madison's school, then shuttling her to and fro from dance to gymnastics to drill team to choir and exhausted, coming home to rest a little and start again, while dad works 90 hours a week just to afford the uniforms, and fees, not to mention those cute little stickers on back of that $50,000 SUV that soccer mom drives around with one designer child in all day.
In larger part, as Ruffalo says above, the large mega churches are inadvertently complicit in the divorce epidemic. It is not just the Willow Creek Association, but the entire SBC and all the others that are ranting about gays while couples divorce in droves.

drive by
Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.


Mike Adams
Thanks for the recommendation. As an aside. Blue Like Jazz. Great book! I recommend it.

Verbivore
I love the passage but am hesitant to use it. Do you realize the implications for virtually all TH columnists and the vast majority of bloggers?

MikeR
How do you manage to comment on almost every TH column, yet never produce a relevant statement? You attempt to criticize every author, but in thousands of posts, you have yet to offer even one fact or even one piece of evidence that contradicts any of the columnists’ views. By the law of odds alone you should have produced at least one applicable comment by now. Maybe one day.....“A million monkeys with a million typewriters...”

Drivebyposting
The good book also says"judge not lest ye be judged" I see you doing an awful lot of judging here. The only change I see you pushing for is changing the word of God to fit your lifestyle.

Selfish religion-1
The only thing that cures a man of selfishness and the self-righteousness that is associated with it is for him to see something greater and more important than himself. That simply cannot happen in the religious environment that dominates this nation. Sadly, in America, the religion that bears the name of Jesus Christ has learned that the way to riches and power is to flatter the people, and the result has been a generation of religious people who think themselves more important than God. The focus has shifted from the after-life to this life and the pleasures accociated with it. Even the phrases they use to describe salvation reveal a this-worldly attitude: I asked Jesus into my life. Now that I have God in my life things are much better. God has become something helpful, but not necessary. God’s salvation has been reduced to life-improvement rather than salvation from sin. Sadly, for many, God is little more than a cosmic Santa Clause whose only value is to bring them stuff, whether that stuff be day-to-day blessing, an eternal mansion, better self-esteem or a more “successful” life.

Having been pumped full of the concept of self-worth, the modern Christian feels free to sign on to the conservative agenda and denounce every speck of evil he sees in the eyes of others while ignoring the beam of evil in his own eye. If you would like a Scriptural picture of the Modern American Church, you need only look at the proud Pharisee who said, “I thank you God I am not like other men…”


Never ceases to amaze me how...
so few people seem to understand how the 1960s cultural revolution hurt this country so badly. The statistics ought to knock our socks off but so many are ignorant, complacent, apathetic, etc. Let's stop being so blind.

Selfish religion- 2
The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ sets forth a Jesus unknown to most American church-goers. Those gathered round Him in Revelation 5 say “Worthy art Thou…” The glory, power and grace of the Jesus of Revelation is such that men feel compelled to worship Him and see themselves as nothing more than sinners redeemed by His blood. It is not the pattern of redeemed slaves to show contempt for other slaves not yet redeemed. Rather, they glory in their redeemer.

Here is the problem with the church of America, and the problem that so ravages my own heart: We do not see enough of the glory of Christ and the result is we see too much of the glory of ourselves. God help us.

A recommendation
For some good musical commentary om the church and some great singing concerning the glory and beauty of Jesus Christ, I recommend the music of Derek Webb. His ability to honestly set forth the glory and grace of Christ while also being honest about the sinfulness and wretchedness of the church. I especially enjoyed his CD's "House Show" and "She Must and Shall Go Free." I feel certain Mike Adams and those like Mike would really like him.

I don't think self esteemism is
a Chrtistian phenom. It comes from learning psychology and sociology and is full of non-"emotional" NEUTRAL scientific terminology like self worth and self image, yadda. It can't possibly talk about pride and honor because they bring the baggage of religion, citizenship, and possbily "duty," an anathema.

I would say the biggest change isn't attitudes toward children, the left has a mantra "theeee chillllldrruuunnnn" for anything they want to regulate, but the loss of honor and duty.

Duty toward country is sneered at by the likes of John Kerry as the last resort of the stupid.
Ditching duty is the imperative beyond the "our marriage just didn't work out," as if such a union had a shelf life whereafter it was better thrown away.

And loyalty to job or friends or relatives is also passe. People flit around like moths from one career to the next and one town to the next, dropping and making new friends like discarding tissue paper and shopping anew.

When people constantly speak of "moving on," I sometimes don't think they've been anywhere to start with. We're supposed to drop in on funerals for an hour or so and then move on. We marry for five or six years and then move on. The WSJ just wrote about grandparents who've moved on from their grandchildren. They like the kiddies well enough but the grandparents' adventures and commitments are just so involving that there's really no time for grandchildren.

Old people move on to retirement homes, assisted living, nursing homes, and then funeral homes. I wonder how anyone remembers them or visits when they've moved on through so many lives and states and social trends.

MikeR
"So sure, there may be strings tied to my arms and legs; but just maybe they’re tied to you too."

Sorry, I've not been converted by Democrats (aka Nazis/Communists) (or RINOs).

There are quite a large number of satanic puppeteers masquerading as Christians with hopes they can destroy Christianity. Nothing new, it was going on long before the USA was started, and it will continue till the end of times.


It is faith in God
that has kept this country from collapsing totally on itself. The original framers of our constitution knew this. Just look at the little pillows that are still under the benches in Williamsburg. Before and after every meeting, they all knelt and prayed. If everyone on this blog took even 10 minutes a day (and I'm sure there are many that do) and prayed for our country--I think we would begin to see a difference. If not, immediately, in our nation then certainly within ourselves.

Renny
I strongly agree with your opinion on 'self esteem'. Growing up and attending church every Sunday and Wednesday, the term was never used. I didn't come across it until college, when taking anthropology, sociology, and psychology. Nowadays, every school teacher has to bring it up so that we don't hurt the child's feelings. And we wonder why kids aren't doing so well.

Broken
Sure am glad John Burke welcomes "seekers and doubters" because then I'd feel comfortable there, and hopefully here.

It seems we all agree we're imperfect, limited and corrupt, and like "John Burke understands...We must accept people as they are while simultaneously insisting that once they enter the church they will not stay that way."

Mike Adams, you say: "We all need to recognize our own role in the downfall of this society as humble members of a united church."

As a humble seeker and doubter, I recognize that without belonging to your united church.

Mike Adams, you say "As Burke points out, we are all in a broken state of wanting to play God."

I don't want to play God. In fact, lacking faith, I don't know what you even mean by God. Being imperfect, limited and corrupt is simply part of man's nature, and something we naturally strive to improve with omoral choices and actions.

But then I feel comfortable again when you say "The only difference between individuals lies in the willingness to acknowledge this brokenness."

Yes, humbly, we're all broken.

Now I'm trying to relate all that to evil children and where that came from. Don't Christians say we're all born with original sin?

And to what you say about selfishness. Isn't Christianity about personal salvation?

To: harmony & stunned
Personal anecdote (perhaps other parents can relate to this): when I held my newborn son for the first time, I was conscious of an emotional surge that was more powerful than any other I have previously experienced. As I looked at him I felt a sense of self - he was MY son, and I would do ANYTHING for him. I felt the same surge when my 2nd son was born.

I cannot feel that bond with anyone else's child. At that moment, there were perhaps 50 other kids in the hospital nursery - but they didn't exist for me. It was (and remains) a selfish emotion that binds ME to MY children.

A parent who abandons their child clearly doesn't feel that bond with their child. Such a parent has no sense of 'self' - s/he is selfless in the purest sense of the word.
----
Selfish (def): one for whom the self is the sole purpose in life
----
A personal adaptation of the above definition: I include MY children (I have two), MY wife, MY parents and MY siblings within the bubble that I call my 'self'. To varying degrees I accept responsibilities towards those in my 'selfish' bubble.

I believe that others feel similarly selfish - but are conditioned to feel guilty about such emotions by our culture's fascination with altruism. We therefore fall prey to anyone else (a politician, for example) who professes to actually adhere to those 'finer feelings' that we KNOW we lack.

And THAT is the double-fraud of selflessness. It is inconsistent with human beings, but we are 'suppposed' to feel guilty if we lack that quality.

A Christian's reaction to driveby & VOR
drivebyposting, if you want to know what a Christian is, the ANSWER... is in a question:

"If you died today, do you KNOW you would go to heaven?"

If the answer is ANYTHING other than an unhesitant, unqualified and enthusiastic "YES!", you probably aren't a Christian.

voice_of_reason, the only selflessness that is good is the selflessness that Christ taught, "Greater love has no one than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends..." The only way we can follow His example is to become as perfect as He is. The only way to do that is to be born-again - a spiritual birth which causes a person to be indwelt by the Divine Nature of Jesus via His Holy Spirit.

Sorry to go all theological on you guys; theological criticisms demand theological rebuttals.

"Why God lets one enter Heaven" ~
Re: 2centsworth. Part I
Looked up Scripture quotes & cited my source. Some eagle-eye will doubtless note that only one verse of Galatians is listed here. Don't ask me why; I don't know.

Driveby writes:"There are No Christians..." This observer suspects that you have a skewed notion of what Christianity is all about. To correct these errors in your thinking, I submit the following: First, One doesn't get to heaven by works. (See Ephesians 2:9,10.)

King James Version (KJV)
Ephesians 2:9, 10
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

One obtains salvation by following Romans 10:9.
Romans 10:9
New International Version (NIV)
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Having done this, then one must come unto the knowledge of the truth and/or be transformed by the renewing of one's mind/ walk by the spirit.
(1 Timothy 2:4)
New International Version (NIV)
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

(Romans 12:2)
(New International Version)
2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

(Galatians 5:19)
New International Version (NIV)
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

Loving Children
This nation under God is now the mass grave of between 40 - 50 million of unborn babies and the butcher shops continue their slaughter, and most certainly paying their taxes so that George W., the President whose hero is Jesus, can shoot to pieces some parts of the world, whose mass graves of innocent victims is actually far less than the numbers in America's mass grave of the absolutely innocent ones, period, as innocent as Jesus was, while in the womb of Mary, his earthly mother. To add insult to injury, politicians now seeking the presidency spitting out the word abortion like a machine gun to put down each other, with the Republicans just as fiery about such Satanic practice. So, what does the above reality tell the few remaining Children anyway as they go to church with their parents who use all kinds of antipregancy stuff to have lesser and lesser children also? Yes, the majority of Americans now claim that sex is especially for entertainment than for procreation. So, Mr. Adams lets talk a little more turkey, please, in honor of God the Creator? Maybe when Bin Laden calls America the Satan, he is not totally wrong, or so it seems to me! Besides, with this baggage on America, America will accomplish really nothing in Iraq and othewise. America's Godlessnees is rampant!


"Why God lets one enter Heaven" ~
Re: 2centsworth. Part II
These involve works.They also involve great change in how one thinks and behaves. And it is an ongoing effort. As to TH being a cesspool of hate for liberals, there are two considerations. As to the rank and file liberal, the scripture says that, "only by pride comes contention." JC of Nazareth commisioned us to preach the gospel. But if folks like yourself refuse to pay attention, it is because of the sin of pride. That's on you. But there is still time to repent. As to the second consideration, let me bring your attention to to Proverbs 6:12-19.

Proverbs 6:12-19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

12 A scoundrel and villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye, signals with his feet and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart— he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant; he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

This is a description of the seed of the devil. It is most unfortunate that they have been, and continue to run wild in our society. For them, it's too late. They crossed the line. You can't change seed.

http://www.biblegateway.com/
Copyright © by International Bible Society

It is not hate
Liberals seem to regard any speech that is critical of something as "hate". Disagreement is not hate. I disagree with liberals on many things but I do not hate them. Some of them are my very good friends. We just disagree on some things. One surprising thing about the Town Hall comment section is how many writers think they know so much about other people when they likely know only about their own experience but cannot honestly extrapolate from that small sample. It makes interesting reading, and we learn eventualy to quit wasting time with some of the comments as they are not actual discussion of opinion. Wow! I looked at Titus 1:15. Everyone here ought to do that.

It is not hate
Disagreement is not Hate!

Voice of Reason
I'd agree with most of what you said in your posts, but there's a bit more to it. Some people will read your posts and take it to a selfish extreme. I don't know why people like to do that, but they will. Christians are called by their faith to be charitable. Scripture teaches that the Lord loves a cheeful giver. But we are also called to be good stewards of His provision. There are charities that do not deserver our funding, but there are many that do. We are to descern those differences and give when and where we can.

There is a lot that goes into the decision making process of how much we give and to whom we give it. It think it was one of John Stossil's shows on where he talked with the mega wealthy and their charitable giving. I don't remember who it was, but there was someone who made the point that their gift was not philanthropy, but creating business' that employed people. If they gave money away, there would be less jobs that coule be created to keep people employed.

Anyway, I though you brough up a good point.

Our fathers
"Individuals who have torn relationships with their earthly fathers will have a much harder time placing trust in their Heavenly Father."

Which is less surprising still when you consider that our relationship with our heavenly father has been torn - at the Fall. This is the original relationship, and we have been cut off from our true relationship of true sons and daughters of God.

It is the task of religion to re-unify us, to re-build and restore the original relationship. Then, as religion becomes weaker and more controversial and more live without religion, the consequences are felt in the home as the relationship between parent and child become ever more strained.

The model for our relationship with our parents is our relationship with God, but the model for our relationship with God is also our relationship with our parents. How to break out of this circle?



Driveby Dope
Driveby - You never even read the column did you?
Your comments read like a prerecorded drone of a column you EXPECTED to read.

Dope.

Icedog
Now now, I admit I take pleasure on tweaking a few noses from time to time; but most all of my comments are relative. No, they are not always expresses blatantly, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Take my first comment. Boiled down it says that Dr. Adams is using statistics and rhetoric to show how liberals have made things worse. I say that he is wrongly laboring under the “good old days” syndrome.

Next I’m saying that anti-socialist is a reactionary fool.

Lastly I told verbivore that while I admire the Bible passage, a practical application would paint most folks here in a bad light.

As for you, your comment has some merit but frankly comes up short as you seem to not only tolerate the most juvenile name calling and insults authored by conservatives, you have been known to revel in them.

That you fail to find the relevance is the fault of my poor writing skills and your lack of comprehension skills. That you see my short comings clearly yet are blind to that of your brethren is sheer hypocrisy. Here’s a tip for your future comments: We here at TH are offering commentary. You can’t have commentary without opinion.

Anti-socialist: Good answer. I think I’ll use that too only since you say the “satanic puppeteers [are] masquerading as Christians” I won’t worry about the mythical half commie half nazi creature of your nightmares and concentrate on Christians.

drivebyposting wrote:
"Jesus said, hate the sin but love the sinner."

Where did He say that? Scripture, please?

Libs Need a Better Way
Christians should lead by example. Christians are not perfect (only one man was ever perfect). But, Christians can and should perform acts and deal with adversity in ways that show we are Christians. The parables of Jesus show us how Christians should live.

Good Samaritan parable: help those in need.
The Two Talents: do not squander your resources, but use them wisely and increase them.
Prodigal Son: even those who stray and seek after pleasures of the flesh are welcomed back into the fold (yes, even Libs who repent and show by their actions they aren't faking it).

Where many libs (perhaps most) prove they are not Christians is in the way they practice and condone so many things that Christ (and the Apostle Paul) stated clearly are un-Christian.


American Feminist Propaganda
Voice of reason wrote "...a male who abandons his biological children is truly selfless!”

Truth is that the family court forces the father out of the children’s life.

The father loses his children to a court order four day a month "visitation" schedule.

It's easier to get a divorce (of which about 85% of women initiate) than to get married.

An American divorce is unilateral (one person decides) and marriage is bilateral (two people need to agree). Divorce is also no-fault, no reason required.

In the anti-father family court, a father has no right to his children. If you do not believe this than go visit your local county family court Monday through Wednesday mornings – it’s free and a reservation is not required.

Divorce, abortion, recreational shopping, and career focus are prideful.

Evil Child Syndrome
Rev. John is a little behind the curve on this one.

Strauss & Howe's "Generations" books, in particular "13th Gen - Abort, Retry, Fail" discusses this paradigm in detail.

It is not new. It is, in fact, a cyclical phenomenon that has played itself out across the history of the US and has many basises - including religion itself.

http://www.fourthturning.com/html/exploring_history.html

Parenting
The pride and joy I hold for my children is a real force. Giving them all they want, and seeing the happiness this brings, will cause me to work 90 hours a week just to make it happen. But is it the best for my children? Now I have spoiled brats that think they are entitled to everything they want, and someone (Dad) has to provide it, because they need it. But life is not that way, is it? Look at our Gov't. And the dependency it creates. Very much like spoiled children (and check out the tantrums they throw when they don't get their "free, we need it," stuff!
Grow up people, become adults!

drivebyposting
And God said judge not lest you be judged.

So who are you to judge and pronounce what is right and wrong?

You also forgot the free will part as well.

Unfair distinction
To say that you must choose between liberalism and Christianity is misleading. I have left-leaning Christian friends who are every bit as passionate about Christ as anyone else. They would probably not be welcome in the Democratic Party, because they are staunchly pro-life, but they oppose the war in Iraq, are environmentalists, and believe in massive government poverty reduction programs.

Christ did not teach a political philosophy, or give any treatises on government. His followers included a zealot (used force to try to overthrow Roman rule) and a tax collector (a Jewish collaborator with the Roman government). Of course your faith influences your politics, but you needn't be a Republican to find salvation in Christ Jesus.

Anyone here
Who is a Christian remember the last time you ever heard a preacher speak of the Cross of Jesus Christ?

Besides that, what is perfection anyway, and who is the judge of it.

Bad messenger = bad message?
Does it necessarily follow that a bad (less than perfect) messenger brings a bad message? Driveby seems to believe so.

Is it liberals being condemned or the liberal message that is being condemned?

Lolo1
"Judge not, lest ye be judged" is one of the most quoted, but least understood passages of scripture. Christ is not saying that it is somehow sinful to distinguish between right and wrong. He is saying that we should not condemn others in our hearts, because we are all sinful would have to share that condemnation.

It is not wrong to say "Bill Clinton shouldn't have committed adultery, because adultery is sinful". It is wrong to say "I hate that disgusting adulterer Bill Clinton, and hope he gets some awful disease or something because he deserves it". Do you see the difference?

Faith and Deeds [James 2]
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


Max Power
He is the man, whose name you'd love to touch
But you mustn't touch...

I tried to get "Max Power" as my name, but it was already taken. But at least it was by somebody smart.

talent scout
You do make a good point about preaching the Cross. Far to many preachers are trying to be "relevant" and keep their messages topical. I have been blessed with a pastor who thinks the Cross and the Blood are always relevant.

Christianity is the belieft
that God sent his son Jesus into the world to experience human existence and that this Jesus died a horrendous death to take away the sins of man.
Christians believed Jesus died, was resurrected, and now resides in heaven.
People can believe in God and not be Christians.

Its where the only perfection
That matters can be found
------------



gwco2skeptic writes:
talent scout
You do make a good point about preaching the Cross. Far to many preachers are trying to be "relevant" and keep their messages topical.
-------------------------
talent scout:
No perfection in knowledge is there
It is not even found in understanding all things and having all riches.
Where does it dwell is the question I have for God, whom I consider to be the best Judge of that.
----------


gwco2skeptic writes:
I have been blessed with a pastor who thinks the Cross and the Blood are always relevant.
-------------

You are blessed indeed

If the bible is what it says
It is, and I believe without a doubt it is.
Then its message is timeless and eternal as it says it to be, ever settled in Heaven.

There is no modern day gospel, there is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ Paul preached, or there are false teachers one.

Also in reading the Book of Job, I find an instance of a perfect man, but was in need of God, and found Him.


The odd thing about Job was in reading how God told satan he was a perfect man, then read how Job had many many questions and no answers...until he found God.

He also had cursed the very day he was born, with vehemence.
Judged by his local church group of Eliphaz,Bildad and Zophar he was a wicked fellow.

I had to smile in my discovery of the difference in the way God seen Job and how his church friends seen him.

Drive By Posting
Sir or Madam or Whatever you are.....

If Town Hall is such a Cess Pool why don't you go elsewhere?

Mike Adams
Very good comments today although a few "drivebys" should have kept on driving.

What I can most agree with is the psychology courses and related courses are the most at fault for our present frame of mind. That and our unparalleled success as a society and country. Too much success has definitely gone to our head which overshadows our hearts and sense of responsibility.

Gee, was yesterday Sunday.??. Feel like I have been to church today......... What with all the preaching here today... You touched a nerve somewhere and the driveby made it a declaration of purpose for the rest of us.

M Ruffalo
Ever wonder if your posts get through? Ever wonder why no one seems to give a rip about divorce? This isn't about you, or me, or the maybe handful of folks that this issue gets traction with, it is about the fabric of our nation, and all this other stuff is the details.
Folks love the details. In them they find gossip, and that friends is pure fun.
Go on, nod off, write about libs and conservatives, candidates and taxes, corruption and immigration, even abortion and sexual orientation.
During the time you wrote that a few dozen kids lost a parent to divorce. Especially in the church.

Republican's Aynd Rand Philosphy
The selfishness in this country was not invented by Hollywood, but it is an easy target for Republican's to attack, even though it is their kids that are going to see these dumb movies that gross millions of dollars. Aynd Rand and others of her ilk made selfishness fashionable, and the I've got mine, screw you mentality. Many of the fundamentalist churches have also bought into this mantra with their "it's ok to be rich and let's not talk about the poor anymore". If Jesus ever came back to earth he would not recognize most of what passes for Christianity these days.

Feminist's divorce...
... is America's elephant in the room.

The room is in our homes, churches, media newsrooms, and family court houses.

Some people know the truth when they hear or experience it. Some ignore it. Others it takes time for the truth to take root.

Instead I observe that we look to continue to worship women, pets, and now gays, and blame straight Christian men for our country's short failures.

Bobzmcishl
"Aynd Rand and others of her ilk made selfishness fashionable"

I think you confuse self-interest with greed, Rand's philosophy concerns self-interest.

Many Christians reject her philosophy as cultist, tit-for-tat since she did the same with mysticism.

I hear many Christians turning against capitalism as too materialistic.

Not learning, they are being entertained
Dr. Adams,

what do you mean when you said, “making “evil child” horror films would have been unthinkable.” The teens watching those movies are not being taught anything, they are just being entertained.

A teenager is made to sit in a hard chair in a drafty room, next to people he doesn't like, watching a scratchy picture on a small screen, and the teacher's union will tell you he is learning, learning, he’s learning.

Later that same day, that same person is sitting in a comfortable upholstered chair in an air-conditioned room, eating pop-corn and drinking a coke, sitting next to his girlfriend, watching a technically perfect picture on a huge screen, and we are told he is learning nothing, he is being entertained.

And don't say your child saw those same films and programs and killed no one. Millions of people saw a commercial for a new car last night, and only a very, very few bought the car.

Repeated and constant exposure to computer games, TV programs, and movies can and does influence a life. Can Hollywood be proud of what they teach?

Speaking of birthdays
January 2, is a lucky date for a beautiful lady.

One year we celebrated my Sweeties birthday on 12345670

Jan 2, 2003, at 4:56, her 70th. Not many people have done that.

Well, we slept through the 4:56 AM version, but did we ever celebrate the 4:56 PM version!!!


tolerance and acceptance
The church's problem has been that acceptance has always led to . . . acceptance. Yes, that is right. The people cannot distinguish, cannot define, the difference between allowing a type of fellowship which allows engagement and another type of fellowship which soon no longer recognizes sin. The latter type is always called acceptance and it has led to the corruption of many denominations who can no longer speak out against the sin in their midst because their speakers are now the practitioners of the most egregious immoralities.

Thanks, FROG ..
.. and yes, I agree that the word 'selfish' can be mis-construed.

But there appears to be no other way to describe it. Also, think of the way in which 'selflessness' is mis-construed on a regular basis:

* it has become perverted into the ideological basis of Leftist rationale for Welfare, Public Education

I'm familiar with the point-of-view that personal selflessness is 'good' while the enforcement of 'public' selflessness is 'evil'.

But that distinction is just not enough. We have become predisposed to accept all forms of selflessness (real or imaginary) as a political and economic trump card.

As a result:
* non-profit proposals get more public support than profit-oriented proposals
* selfless-sounding (but unworkable) policies become the law of the land; e.g. Public Education, Welfare, Universal Health Care
* foreign policy based on American self-interest becomes watered down into 'saving' other nations

And, in the end ..
* socialism will replace capitalism in America

If you think that is a stretch, wait until Nov '08

LOVE AT FIRST GLIMPSE
LOVE AT FIRST GLIMPSE
For over 55 years, the date I remembered the most was no one's birthday, not the wedding anniversary, not Christmas, or New Years.

It was Nov 3, 1950, the date I met my Beautiful Lady on our Blind date. It was not Love at First Sight, it was LOVE AT FIRST GLIMPSE.

But we did celebrate 54 wedding anniversary, each in a different restaurant, on three cruise ships, 5 foreign countries, and five states.

Now I most remember November 15. The worst day of my life.

Drivebyposting
Oh, My!
Methinks drivebyposting is beset by a bad case of ACDR (Ann Coulter Derangement Syndrom).

drivebyposting
I have read some of the most ridiculous things ever on TH, but yours really surpasses - well - ALmost - ANYthing I have ever read.

DBP: "There are no Christians here."

As pointed out by another poster, how can you possibly KNOW this? You cant, and so you cant make such a statement.

DBP: "That goes for you, Mike."

My oh my... we ARE judgemental, arent we? LOL! Fact is Mike Adams IS a Christian, made so SOLELY by his belief in Jesus Christ. Whether YOU like Mike or not has NO bearing whatSOEVER on the question. Whether YOU think Mike is a "good Christian" or not has NO bearing whatSOEVER on the question.

DVP: "A Christian's job when it comes to the downtrodden, the heathens, the unsaved is to be the example for them to *want* to be something better."

This is the MOST NONSENSICAL statement you made. A "Christian's job" is to FOLLOW Christ! EVERYthing ELSE is incidental. As a teacher in a Christian school, I NEVER would DREAM of "setting mySELF" up as an "example" to ANYone.

I did NOT want my students to be like "me." I wanted them to be like CHRIST. Setting oneSELF up as an "example" is the shortest way to the deadliest sin - pride - and the shortest way to eternal damnation.

drivebyposting
DBP: "What example are you setting Mike? Why would any lost soul, liberal or otherwise, find anything here even remotely more hopeful then their desperate life?"

Let's see.

Mike Adams:
"Individuals who have torn relationships with their earthly fathers will have a much harder time placing trust in their Heavenly Father."

Good point, Mike.

Mike Adams:
John Burke understands this. That’s why he goes to great lengths to ensure that seekers and doubters are welcomed in his church.

Another GOOD point, Mike.

Mike Adams:
"We should all do the same."

Excellent POINT Mike!!
"...one important thing that is unique to Christianity: Grace, which says that God loves us just as we are. We don’t have to “earn” it.

Sweet. AND "inspirational"!!!

Mike Adams
"And who could argue that most of us need to change?"

DBP: "My 1 purpose on this web site has been to advocate for change."

LOLLOL!!!!!!!! Looks to me, DBP, that you and MIKE ADAMS are singing from the SAME hymn-sheet - if I may say!!


drivebyposting
DBP: "You cannot entice people of their own free will to want to be like you, think like you, aspire to your religion when Ann Coulter is flag bearer."

Absolute rubbish. As stated previously, it isNT a "Christian's job to "entice" ANYone. As for Ann Coulter - what a laugh. A very cheap shot on your part. Ann Coulter isNT the "flag bearer" of MY religion - nor of anyone's that I know. She is a highly intelligent woman who writes provocatively and makes a VERY good living out of it!! Only IDIOTS would be offended by her.

DBP: "There are no Christians here. Town Hall is a cess pool of hate."

Jezz. The MOST "hateFILLED" words I have read for a VERY long time around here are those... spewing from your direction. Cant be from YOU?? Yes, I'm afraid so.

DBP: "It is black with perfect condemnation of liberals."

Absolute LIE. SOME columnists, as well as SOME posters, "condemn liberals". MOST dont.

DBP: "We are never to think in our hearts that someone is forever lost while they walk this earth."

Sure. And do you know of a SINGLE townhall columnist who thinks this? Or even for that matter - and there ARE some real whackos posting here - a SINGLE poster who thinks this??? I dont!!

DBP: "We are to stern but open to redemption of any and all. Our's is an incessant, non-stop messenger service purpose."

Quite frankly, I have NO idea of what you are trying to say here.... but I detect some preachin' brother - "amen"!???!!!

DBP: "You cannot bring hope to the troubled if you believe the troubled are completely lost.

NAME ONE person who thinks this.

drivebyposting
DBP: "Only God can condemn someone so completely."

Christians believe in a God who condemns NO one.

DBP: "God has instructed us to be the city upon the hill. No one who is lost wants to be like Hugh Hewitt. Live like Hugh Hewitt. Hugh and company are the devil's doers."

Wow. What on EARTH has Hugh Hewitt go to do with ANYthing?? Jezzzzz. AnOTHER "condemnation"... from YOU.

DBP: "There are no Christians here."

Yawn.. so you keep saying...

DBP: "Just saying you are Christian does not make it so."

Yes, we know....

DBP: "One must be the kind of person who can be a ray of hope to those who live in darkness."

Would YOU be that - er - "ray"? LOL! Naw. Too much "hate" and "condemnation" coming FROM your direction!!

DBP: "Those who are lost must be given reason to believe."

Is this the END of the sermon????

DBP: "There are no Christians here because here it is all scorn and derision, hatred black as coal for those who lost."

OOPS. Not finished yet!! LOL! Scorn and derision??? Usually directed at STUPIDITY! And being "Christian" does NOT give either YOU or ANYone the right to be stupid!!

The ONLY "hatred" I have seen here is coming FROM YOU!!! Mind you, that is where the stupidity is coming from too.... LOL!! So I am treating YOU with "scorn" and "derision". Why? Because you have earned it through the stupidity of your post!! Nothing PERSONAL. I dont "hate" you. I dont even KNOW you!!

DBP: "Jesus said, hate the sin but love the sinner."

Still PREACHIN' Brother DriveBy??? AmEN!!!

DBP: "That has never gone on with Town Hall. Town Hall should change its name to Tower Hate."

If it keeps allowing hate-filled posts such as YOURS to be posted, I would agree. But if YOU stopped posting, there would be no need! LOL!

lonestar
Can you clarify what you said to Mike Adams? BTW, did you catch the other book he recommends?
MikeR. Your post makes no sense.

Mark Ruffolo
Wow... Guess that undercuts Mikes whole point... Jezz.

drivebyposting
DBP: "Not sure if you read these things, Mike, but if you get the chance you should watch the TV series "Firefly"."

After your WHOLEsale "condemnation" of Kike, you NOW expect him to take YOUR advice??? Are you a complete idiot???

DBP: "You remind me in some respects of Shepherd Book. Book is a preacher with a certain affinity for guns."

Er... Isnt this a FICTIONAL character????

DBP: "Book tells River, "It's not about making sense, its about having something to believe in. You don't fix faith. It fixes you.""

DBP: "One of the best dialogs on modern TV going with respect to religion in modern times."

Sounds pretty corny and dumb to me... But that's just me...

DBP: "All intelligence has its limits."

As demonstrated by... you.

DBP: "Then read some Ann Coulter. Watch some Shepherd Book."

What's your fixation with Ann Coulter? What on EARTH has SHE got to do with ANYthing??? Is she the ONLY one posting on TH???

DBP: "Shepherd Book is not a a**hole."

No... just a fictional character.. if I understand you correctly...

DBP: "Which is more than can be said for anyone on this sight professing to be a Christian."

Getting a mite - repetitive?? - at this stage???

Verbivore
Verbivore: "To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled."

MikeR: "I love the passage but am hesitant to use it. Do you realize the implications for virtually all TH columnists and the vast majority of bloggers?"

Verbivore: "MikeR. Your post makes no sense."

Hmmmm. Perhaps ONLY to you. MikeR's post read PERFECTLY to me. I think he is gently AND humbly suggesting - in a MOST Christian-like manner - that TH columnists and posters are - dare I say -LACKING on the "purity" side of things?? LOL!

I have rarely come across posters I would consider to be on the "purity" side. Havent read ANY under THIS article...

to the pure
My point is merely that Drive by claims to see no Christianity on TH posts. I say, it depends on what you're looking for. If he looks at posters through the jaded eyes of condemnation, then that is what he will find.


Verbivore
Regardless of what you MEANT, it doesnt mean that MikeR's point makes "no sense." It should have been obvious. And he meant it lightly.

obtuse
Yes, he meant it lightly, so why are jumping in, in your obtuse way, with something that doesn't concern you?

Don't make the mistake jimmy, of presuming the rest of us are as obtuse as yourself.

Never ceases to amaze me how...
so few people seem to understand how the 1960s cultural revolution hurt this country so badly. The statistics ought to knock our socks off but so many are ignorant, complacent, apathetic, etc. Let's stop being so blind.

Verbivore
Vervivore: "Yes, he meant it lightly,"

How strange that you can NOW see that, whereas a couple of post ago you were saying that it made "no sense."

Vervivore: "so why are jumping in, in your obtuse way, with something that doesn't concern you?"

Er.. not wanting to point out the obvious... but! Last time I checked, this WAS a public forum! YOU may post as you please... so may EVERYone else.... even lil' ol' me!!

YOU implicitly and wrongly criticised MikeR, by FALSELY claiming that he made "no sense" - I say falsely because one - it WAS a false claim - and two, you NOW acknowledge that he "meant it lightly" - MEANING that you actually underSTOOD it from the beginning.... meaning it "MADE sense" - even to you.

MikeR posts intelligently, and not to be too "obtuse" about it - LOL! - claiming that he "made no sense" is an insult to his intelligence.

Interesting that YOU may criticise freely, but when called on it, you deny YOUR criticiser the RIGHT to "jump in"!! Does that not lead you to question the "purity" of YOUR intentions, when you post??? It should.

Verbivore: "Don't make the mistake jimmy, of presuming the rest of us are as obtuse as yourself."

Thansk for the advice, Verb. however, I rarely make "presumptions" about the "rest of you" - obtuse or otherwise. I do find - in general - a certain lack of humor though - especially among the supposedly "religious". A grave fault indeed, representing as it does a certain lack of humility.....

All Christians greater than John…

To testify of grace is to admit our inability to approach God on our own merits, for grace is unmerited favor freely given to the undeserving.

Paul and James are agreed because they both appeal to the righteousness of Abraham as imputed to him by believing God; men are saved by grace through faith unto good works.

Those who would mix works with grace as a basis of standing before God think too highly of themselves and too lowly of God. The first lesson of Christianity is that we are unwilling and unable to come to God apart from the new birth of John 3, and we remain completely unworthy apart from the blood of Jesus Christ.

You do err in comparing us to John the Baptist. “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he…” [Matthew 11:11]

The great difference between us which Jesus is getting at is that with the coming of Messiah and the New Covenant the people of God have a new level of spiritual perception unknown in the Old Covenant.

We enjoy great privilege to live on this side of the cross and the resurrection and Pentecost.

'Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?' [1 Corinthians 3:16] Though the Spirit we understand the things freely given to us in Christ Jesus.

Lonestarblues
You are right about us all being born of original sin. That said of children Jesus also said at'I believe the sermon on the mount. as the men were trying to keep back the children who were trying to get to him" Suffer not the children as they are as pure as the driven snow." The point I'm trying to make is children are not born "bad" they learn to be. Some more than others.

Another thought
The Bible also says
James 2:17-20
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (KJV)

By their works you shall know them.



Wow Audi
We're on the same page!!!

Icedog
IceDog to MikeR: "How do you manage to comment on almost every TH column, yet never produce a relevant statement?"

Ahem. MikeR is FAR too polite and well-bred to call you a liar. But the facts - which are EASILY verifiable - contradict this statement. ALL you have to do is click on a SMALL sample of "TH columns" - and you wont even FIND a single comment by MikeR.

On top of which, "relevance" is in the eye of the beholder. MikeR generally posts the best comments under Mike Adams articles IMHO.

Icedog: "You attempt to criticize every author,"

Er. This statement is again - "factually challenged." Go check SOME authors - easily done -and if you are a man, you will come back and admit it.

Of course, the interesting thing is... I rarely see YOU post, UNless to criticise... MikeR!!

Icedog: "but in thousands of posts, you have yet to offer even one fact or even one piece of evidence that contradicts any of the columnists’ views."

LOL!! Priceless. MikeR has already addressed this. And made a mockery of this statement. It should be withdrawn... too.

Lonestarblues
Hi, my friend. I'm still reading about ID/Darwinism stuff. Hope you are well.

If Christianity is so great ...
... then where were the Christians when Black slaves suffered unspeakable horrors and injustice in this "Christian nation"?

Sure there were occasional voices raised against slavery and segregation. But for the most part, White Christians despised Blacks and did nothing to help.

actually, Vince
William Wilberforce and John Wesley were instrumental in the overthrow of slavery. Without Christianity it would have remained - perhaps even to this day.

mrs Paddy
I'm well, but humble. ;-)

Ordered _Uncommon Dissent_. Meantime reading Philip Johnson's doozy _Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds_.

eastlake joe
"You are right about us all being born of original sin....The point I'm trying to make is children are not born 'bad' they learn to be."

I was just repeating what many Christians tell me. I tend to agree with you. We can't be bad, or good for that matter, until are mature enough to know the difference, and then knowing, choose to act immorally. But, like I say, many Christians tell me, no, we're born of original sin.

Verbivore
"Can you clarify what you said to Mike Adams?"

What specifically? You know me, I could post pages on any of it. :-P

"BTW, did you catch the other book he recommends?"

Blue Like Jazz? You'd mentioned that in the other thread.

lonestarblues
Are you under the weather my friend?

Something bad is going around.

Goldenrod tares my alergy up, but so far I haven't been hit with this bug that's working it's way out.

Sounds to me
like Dr. Adams is having a growth spurt.

Don't you just love it when that happens, Dr.?

lonestarblues
Sounds like a doozy...Good material when insomnia reigns? ;-}

on another track:

For the record, there are a lot of different ideas out there based on different doctrines that are mostly confusing and don't always follow the plain, literal reading of the Bible. I never could figure out where the child born in sin bit came from. I can't find anything to support that in my Bible, but I know a lot of folks that think like that.

I don't claim to be a theologian, so I could be wrong, but it always bothers me when some Christians preach and make others feel like they are being judged and condemned if they don't agree or believe a certain way. Some of the best people I have ever known were Christians, and I've met my share of them that I don't agree with too. What's the truth? I'm still studying and I admit to being conflicted between wanting to share with like-minded people, and rejecting what 'people' have determined is God's will. I think God has a big Tent.

I just believe that those who earnestly seek Him will find Him. The big mistake a lot of people make (in my opinion) is in not granting God the power which He must have, and thinking He can't accomplish what he wants for us on His own terms without outside 'help.'

Somebody said to me once that we (people) don't think Big enough when we think about God. That always seemed pretty profound to me.

Anyhow, I digress. Just wanted to add my two cents.

talent scout
Dr. Tim Keller of Redeemer Pres. in NYC ties every sermon, regardless of the topic, (and they are almost always worth hearing in their own right) back to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Actually quite amazing.

talent asks:
"Anyone here Who is a Christian remember the last time you ever heard a preacher speak of the Cross of Jesus Christ?"

Yesterday, Sunday,September 23. And every Sunday previous. I can promise you it will happen again on Suday, September 30, Lord willing.

I need to hear the gospel every Sunday. The story never gets old.


Obviously a man who
Not only has been touched by God, but one whose understanding that is the message of the scriptures.

-------------------------

Bipsy Quee writes: Monday, September, 24, 2007 11:01 PM
talent scout
Dr. Tim Keller of Redeemer Pres. in NYC ties every sermon, regardless of the topic, (and they are almost always worth hearing in their own right) back to the cross of Jesus Christ.

Actually quite amazing.

---------------------------------------

As we know God Created heaven and earth in 6 days and rested, He was not finished.

When Jesus was Crucified :

John 19:30 -
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:
and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Heb 10:14 -
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


1Co 1:18 -
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


I think most of our problems today in Christianty comes from leaving God out and trusting to our own wisdom or knowledge, ever learning and some never come to this simple knowledge, trusting in some man or themselves.

I strive for one thing now after 40 some years.
(not directed to you Bipsy or any other, just what I seek to do)

1Co 15:31 -
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily

I came of age in the 60's and the big saying was "be true to thyself"
"know thyself"
And such sayings

Really never knew myself, until the Lord touched me one night, then I did not much like self after that.


Voice of reason???
"Consider some of the most selfish actions that a human being can commit (and I'm guilty of them all):
* creating one's own biological children"

AND

"I cannot feel that bond with anyone else's child. At that moment, there were perhaps 50 other kids in the hospital nursery - but they didn't exist for me. It was (and remains) a selfish emotion that binds ME to MY children."

Ever heard of adoption? What the hell is this obsession with blood ties? It seems to be a male phenomenon.

Mary C.

foxfire
Hiya!

"Are you under the weather my friend?"

Down around these parts it seems the allergens are always bad. You don't know allergens until you've experienced Mountain Cedar! But that's another season, now it's Ragweed, Elm and Chenopods, whatever Chenopods are!

Mary C.,, you misunderstood my point
I was stating (honestly) how I felt about MY kids.

It was in response to questions that had been posted, asking me to explain my position. Another person drew an incorrect inference (from my remarks about selfishness) and asked if I had any kids.

I do not doubt that there are some people who can feel a strong paternal bond with adopted kids. But there is also a reason why most people consider adoption only as a last resort -sometimes after trying IVF etc. BTW, since IVF is particularly tough for women, the fact that so many women try it negates the point that only males are 'obsessed' with having genetic offspring.

My point is that having children is a SELFISH response to a SELFISH human need - despite all the altruistic fluff that people construct around it. Note: In my definition 'selfish' is not a pejorative, but an honest, consistently human sentiment.

Raising an adopted child also fulfils a similarly SELFISH (again, I use the S-word in a positive context) need in the adoptive parent - who is making the self-affirming statement that s/he can be the best parent for that particular child.

mrs Paddy
"For the record, there are a lot of different ideas out there based on different doctrines that are mostly confusing and don't always follow the plain, literal reading of the Bible."

No kidding! As an outsider it's even easier to see. In fact, I would go further and say many hold doctrines they can't ground in the Bible.

"...it always bothers me when some Christians preach and make others feel like they are being judged and condemned if they don't agree or believe a certain way."

I think that's a big part of Christianity, guilt. To be saved you must first be guilty. Love God and hate yourself. It might even be said that's what belief is, guilt.

"I just believe that those who earnestly seek Him will find Him."

Perhaps truth-seeking is it, truth-saying tends to be wrong.

"Somebody said to me once that we (people) don't think Big enough when we think about God."

God would have to be bigger than us, bigger than life, the universe and everything else--except of course evil, which--but let's not get off on that track!

Killing us (softly), with that 's' word
Inspired by religious doctrine - or by feel-good liberal atheists - selflessness occupies a great deal of our attention.

Somewhere in America:

- A moist-eyed politician with a quivering lip conjures up visions of starving or homeless people somewhere in the world

- a charismatic and telegenic preacher speaks with great conviction of our duty to help a fellow man

- presidential candidates speak of 'public service' in altruistic terms while indulging in shameless self-promotion

- admission committees at major universities consider the spirit of 'volunteerism' as an important attribute in their applicants; in some cases, this can be as important as the applicant's academic record

- out political process is tilting Leftwards, with each new entitlement as a stepping stone towards others. Failure of past entitlement programs is not an obstacle - as long as our intentions are 'selfless'.

- we place inefficient 'non-profit' ventures on a pedestal, while impugning the motives of 'for-profit' ventures; e.g Public Schools vs Private Schools

- we feel disproportionately uplifted by the fake smarminess of 'donations', 'volunteerism' and 'not-for-profit'

Instead of relying upon (and demanding) professionalism and competence, we are becoming a nation of parasites and willing victims.

What is killing us (softly), is the "s" word ..

S E L F L E S S N E S S

Volunteer your comments at http://voice.townhall.com

judment by reputation
Anybody else want to 'fess up to not having yet read "No Perfect People Allowed"? I suspect that's most of us, so why are all us non-judgmental people so heavily commenting on a book we only know by reputation?

Voice of reason
This post is mindless. The "moist-eyed" politician, the "telegenic preacher" and the presidential candidates" are "manipulative", cunning, and deceitful, serving their SELF-interest which is the OPPOSITE of "selfless."

Regarding "admission committees" and such, I would be interested to know of a SINGLE university who treat "volunteerism" with the same importance as an "academic record." It wouldnt take long to sink, would it? Imagine an intake of volunteering idiots???

As for this "we" placing iniffecient non profit ventures on a pedestal??? I would be interested to know who the "we" are...! I know of NO one who does.

And feeling "disproportionalely uplifted" by "fake smarminess"?? Sorry doesnt have that effect on me at all. My general feeling - as I expect is the feeling of MOST - is a feeling of disgust.

The purpose of your post? Foolish take on "selfLESSness," thinking you are original, but in fact you are a cliche.

TRUE "selfLESSness" isnt even noticed. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Leviticus
Havent read it, nor do I intend to. I dont think the comments are about the book as such - more about the article... and each others comments... as usual!

Dr. Adams
Dr. Adams: "I am pleased that I was given John Burke’s book in a year during which I have suffered an unprecedented amount of pain."

I wont say I "feel" your pain (!!) but a lot of the pain we feel can be self-induced. And if it serves a purpose in helping us to grow, then that is ok.

Dr. Adams: "The portions on our attitudes towards other religions and towards homosexuals have given me cause to consider some changes I need to make in my rhetoric as a public commentator."

I dont know what the book says about "our attitudes to other religions and towards homosexuals" but if it has inspired you to reflect and make changes in your rhetoric, then that has to be a good thing.

For that matter, I am surprised that your critic DBR missed this particular "NON-judgemental" and INSPIRING comment. Well done.

JimmyJoe
You're correct about the manipulative nature of the 'selfish' power-grabbers.

Q) What is the tool that is used by them?
A) It is a false mantle of altruism.

Q) So, why do those 'manipulative' politicians, preachers and presidential candidates succeed in maipulating the American public?
A) Because the American public is pre-disposed to place benevolence on a higher pedestal than individual achievement.

Re: admissions policies at Universities - ask a member of an admissions committee. It has become the norm to look for 'volunteerism' on applications. This is done by the mostly liberal staff members who are placed on such committees. It is part of the overall interest in 'diversity'.

The result: HS students are starting to 'build' their resumes, with all sorts of fluffy, nice-sounding volunteerism.

You state that "No one places a disproportionate emphasis on non-profit .."
What about Public Schools? Medicare? Welfare?

IMO, we are spending too much time designing and building LIFEBOATS, when we should be focused on building more reliability into the SHIP.

BTW, I don't claim to be original - but that hardly makes me a cliché. Not every un-original idea is a cliché. For example, when someone quotes religious scripture, they are not being original - but I would never denigrate their quotes as clichés.

Q) Why the hostile tone in your responses? I've no problem with the disagreement (in fact, I invite you to my blog), but are you capable of a discussion w/out the hostility?

Volunteerism at Universities
If anyone (parent or Univ admissions committee member) has been followign this thread, I invite them to comment on the fact that 'volunteerism' is becoming a big deal in college admissions.

JimmyJoe: It wouldnt take long to sink, would it? Imagine an intake of volunteering idiots???

VoR: but that is exactly what is happening! And many parents and administrators say that it is 'good to see incoming freshmen who have demonstrated a track record of "giving something back" to their community".

Nice words - but mostly fluff. It actually conceals a liberal agenda in the form of coded words that reward Leftist thinking.

VoR
A "big deal" isnt quite "the same as." I dont like it much either, but keep it in perspective. And yes - mostly fluff. The problem with that criteria is that kids are encouraged to "volunteer" because it is good for themSELVES and their OWN prospects!

VoR
VoR: "You state that "No one places a disproportionate emphasis on non-profit .."

No, VoR, I did NOT state this at ALL. I stated - and I quote - that "I KNOW of NO one who does."

If you sense "hostility," it is mere impatience with such as this. YOu couldnt even QUOTE me on a simple point with accuracy.

VoR: "BTW, I don't claim to be original - but that hardly makes me a cliché."

I know you didnt "claim" - not did I state that. I simply drew a conclusion from what you said. Could be right, could be wrong. No big thing.

VoR: "Not every un-original idea is a cliché. For example, when someone quotes religious scripture, they are not being original - but I would never denigrate their quotes as clichés."

That isnt an example. They are QUOTING, and attributing the SOURCE. You were making OBVIOUS observations as though they were somehow a big deal, AND as though NO body around here could see them.

VoR: "Q) Why the hostile tone in your responses?"

Not "hostility." Impatience. You are BLAMING "selfLESSness" for what it isNT responsible for! Jezz. The VERY examples you use are examples of selfISHness!!!!

VoR: "I've no problem with the disagreement"

Good. Then you will have no problem with the fact that we are still in disagreement.

VoR: "(in fact, I invite you to my blog),"

Much appreciated. May take you up on it... some time...

VoR: "but are you capable of a discussion w/out the hostility?"

LOL! Very snide.... Now, tell me again, why would I WANT to visit your blog after such a remark?????

You misunderstand something
lonestarblues writes: 7:05 AM


I think that's a big part of Christianity, guilt. To be saved you must first be guilty. Love God and hate yourself. It might even be said that's what belief is, guilt.
----------------------

It actually comes from self realization of where we fit into life and who is the author of it all.

The false impressions this world gives us by our nature creates the idea we are self made men and control our own destiny.

We do, but only with-in the available choices God gives to all.

Its called conviction by the awakening within the heart and soul of the man who finds God as Job did.
Read Job, especially when God spoke to him and the impact of that voice on even a righteous man in the presence of the Most High.

He is real, He still visits those who seek Him as Job did.

lonestarblues
Well, you bring up the thorny question don't you?

Perhaps evil has a place. Without it, how would we know what was good? Not being flippant here...I really do ponder this notion.

It's sort of like (I don't know if you are an animal-lover) when you find a stray animal (dog or cat) and take it in. That pet is more loyal and devoted than pets that have not been abandoned and lost. At least that has been my experience over the years and with a history of many pets since childhood. We've rescued a few animals over the years, and they've ALWAYS been the best, most loving companions.

There is something about recognizing the contrast that helps you appreciate what you have, or recognize what you want or need. There is a story in the Bible about how difficult it is for a wealthy man to come to God. Sometimes I think it is a lot more difficult for us in the US to do the spiritual work because we have it pretty darn good here...same thing.

Just my puny attempt to understand things that don't make any sense. :-)

talent
"You misunderstand something"

Quite likely as I am not a Christian, just an outsider looking in, trying to understand, what belief is about.

To me the question Adams raises is a moral question. I understand that in terms of choices and actions regarding my fellow man. I would feel guilty if I made immoral choices, took immoral actions with others.

You seem (I could be wrong) to phrase the moral question as one between man and God. But man, limited and imperfect by his nature, can only hope to understand natural law, never divine law of a God by nature unlimited and perfect. I can't imagine the great guilt caused by that uncrossable gap.

But I'll go read Job, one of my favorite stories.

Greatest gift God has given
To His purpose in Creating mankind is the gift of free will.

The Greatest Gift to mankind is His Gift to us in Jesus Christ.

Gods purpose is found in understanding his reason for mankind to begin with.

He stated this purpose in the 1st Chapter of Genesis.

"Let us make man in our own image".

To become equal with God.

The King James Version (Authorized)

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
--------

Jesus Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to offer the highest of all goals for man to strive for, eternal life.

John 3:17 -
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Co 7:3 -
I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.

mrs Paddy
"Well, you bring up the thorny question don't you?"

Hope I'm not a pain! ;-)

"Perhaps evil has a place. Without it, how would we know what was good?"

Exactly, I think. If you don't know what one is how know what the other is? At least experientially. As you get at with the example of the wealthy man in the Bible and we here in the US. As an analogy it is likely why many Americans who have never seen war have little resolve in fighting them.

Regarding our attitude towards
homosexuals. Homosexuality is a sin no worse than any other sin. Having said that, I reserve special feelings toward homosexuals who, with a great deal of energy, try to supplant my parental teaching with their teaching which says that their homosexual behavior is not sinful. These people call a great deal of negative attention to themselves and rightly so.

driveby posting
I think you have mischaracterized - for the most part - the individuals that post here. Most demonstrate considerable reasoning - and understanding. You can hate the sin, but love the sinner. We point out the sin - not the sinner. It is often that a portion of the responders use ad hominem attacks on posters when logic will not advance their agenda.
Don't you want to amend your post to be more specific in your generalized position concerning the posters to this site? I think - if you will conscientously consider your append - you will see that the attack posts come from a very small segment of the posters!

The world has condemned Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ did not condemn the world.
He brought to us the reality of being alive and a part of this world.

This reality is we have a soul with-in us, and the soul is eternal.
Regardless what men believe, its very much as much a part of all of us as an arm or a leg, the inner man.

The inside of us is unseen by mankind, but open to God as nothing is hid from His view.
Our most secret thoughts are as open to Him as our loudest speech is to the closet to us.

This is what Job learned in chapter 42:2

"I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee."

This is the message Jesus Christ preached to the Pharisees.

They strived to be seen of their fellow men as righteous, yet the inside thoughts were unrighteous.

Mt 23:25 -
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mt 23:26 -
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.


We own great power from God with this ability inside of us all, only we can control it, no other power on earth or in heaven can take this from any man, its already given and God will not remove it.

This is what God gave to every man born.
God like powers to make decisions for ourselves.

Just know this about this power though, how it is used is judged already.

The judgment is now for all men, as Jesus Christ is still on trial for each man, each individual on this earth.

Hate the sin, love the sinner
I believe that is attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

lonestarblues
:-) You are not a pain. I enjoy our discussions. It's always a pleasure to have an exchange of ideas.

I appreciate where you are coming from as you have the same sort of questions, insights and arguments that my son has, so I enjoy seeing you online. It seems, you and I, have more in common than perhaps would have been initially apparent. :-) >>>>that's a real smile from this end.

I don't get it...
I don't go over to Moveon.org or DailyKos and read that crap, much less waste my time responding to it. If I did, I would expect an argument that be totally useless. I'd rather read stuff on Townhall, and debate the merits on the merits with others of like mind. Why can't the lefty loonies go hang out with their own kind and leave the reasonable people to discuss things in peace?

Cause
Why can't the lefty loonies go hang out with their own kind and leave the reasonable people to discuss things in peace?
-----------

They are what they condemn
Hateful, spiteful and intolerant

LeishaC
There is no Peace here in the US. We are fighting our own war right here against those who would destroy our way of life. It is the war of ideas and big government vs small government. The cultural war is raging too.

It is very instructional to hear the other side on these threads. Some, I agree, are not worth responding to, but others really do contribute to the discussion.

The thing that is so amazing to me, I deal with lots of people. I don't see the overt hatred that is expressed so readily here on TH (from both sides...I'm not taking sides here)

We need to find the common ground. How can we ever do that if all we see is our point of view? There is much to be gained by standing United, and much to be lost by a we vs. they mentality. At least here at TH we can see multiple sides...even though I must believe that some of the extremes on both sides do not parrallel the average American.

Mrs. Paddy,
You may be interested in reading an article titled: "Can Atheists & Religious people share common values? "

Here is an excerpt:

Note: TH blogs are rife with verbal jousting between people from all four quadrants of the Secular/Religious, Liberal/Conservative divide. Upon closer inspection, it appears as though some adversaries actually share similar values - although those values may be derived from different sources.

For the sake of clarity, let's start with some definitions:

Values: that which an individual seeks to obtain or retain; e.g. most Americans would agree that Education is a Value.

Virtues: actions taken to obtain or retain values; most Americans would agree that working hard and staying in school are virtuous actions taken to obtain a good Education.

Joy: achieved when one succeeds in obtaining or retaining one's values; what a person feels when they graduate from school or college with a good Education!

The above definitions apply to atheists and religious people as well.

It is true that differences can exist in the values that different people hold - but more often, rational people share similar values, although the source of those values may be different.
---------------------excerpt ends----------------
I apologize (in advance), if the shameless plug offends anyone - but here is the link: http://voice.townhall.com/g/3e9d4f52-889c-453f-b4f3-e8a80ee1f5ac

Mrs Paddy
With your last post to lonestar it shows that no matter what your actual age, you are wise beyond your years. God Bless Lady!

Voice of Reason
Interesting perspective. Thanks for the link.

I've used this analogy before, but it seems to fit the lens we all use when we debate politics.

It is not unusual for a single car accident to occur on a level road with an open field on either side...An open field with the exception of ONE lone tree. Usually the car hits the tree, because that is what the driver is looking at.

We are quick to 'hit the tree' without weighing the value of the common ground we all share.

eastlake joe
I'm truly touched. Thanks! I need all the blessings I can get! God Bless you too.

Exactly, Mrs. Paddy
That kind of discussion is what I'm talking about -- I would love that. Unfortunately, here on TH, it seems the Moveon.org crowd likes to come over here and just stir up the stink. A frank actual discussion of ideas, without the name-calling, would be most welcome, even if it's with someone with whom I vehemently disagree.

LeishaC
I know. All we can do is lead by example and try to not get drawn in. I can't say I've always been successful there, because sometimes people need to be called out for what they say, and I've had my days of feeling peckish, too. But, gotta keep on keepin' on.

LeishaC
Here's a poser: If we called a moratorium on all name-calling and suggestions for what people could do with themselves...you get my drift...No labels of any kind...I wonder if there would be any discussion at all? LOL

JimmyJoe - apologies for the misquote -
- perhaps you can respond to this, since it is presented more accurately by way of cut-and-paste!

JimmyJoe: As for this "we" placing iniffecient non profit ventures on a pedestal??? I would be interested to know who the "we" are...! I know of NO one who does.

VoR: What about Public Schools? Medicare? Welfare? These non-profit ventures are supported by a majority of the American public - not just by votes, but by their tax-dollars.

My post on this thread (and my blog at http://voice.townhall.com ) are an attempt to unravel the REASONs why so many people fall for the manipulations that you (JimmyJoe) correctly identified.

Integration, civil rights, etc.
... and White Christian hatred for Blacks, who just wanted to exercise their Civil Rights:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20789361/site/newsweek/?GT1=10357


return2USSR
"if you want to know what a Christian is, the ANSWER... is in a question:

"If you died today, do you KNOW you would go to heaven?"

If the answer is ANYTHING other than an unhesitant, unqualified and enthusiastic "YES!", you probably aren't a Christian."

A Christian can certainly give an unhesitant, unqualified and enthusiastic "YES!" -- because Christians can do a lot of things, we know from the parable of the wise and foolish virgins that not all those who are waiting for the bridegroom are ready for him.

But a Christian who does so should repent of his presumption and learn to give the better answer: "I hope so."

"For in HOPE we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance."

It is HOPE and not confidence that is, with faith and love, one of the three things that last.

ValiantForTruth
"Those who would mix works with grace as a basis of standing before God think too highly of themselves and too lowly of God."

Those who would mix faith with grace as a basis of standing before God think too highly of themselves and too lowly of God.

As witness that it is OUR faith and OUR works but GOD'S grace.

mrs Paddy
":-) You are not a pain."

I was just joshin' ya. Enjoy our discussions too. Bet you've got a real great kid!

Voice of Reason
"It is true that differences can exist in the values that different people hold - but more often, rational people share similar values, although the source of those values may be different."

Couldn't agree more.

Another example: Morals, like the Golden Rule, or its corollary, the Silver Rule, or the Harm Principle. We can all learn and try to apply these universal moral absolutes whether you hold them to be natural sentiments, as Adam Smith and David Hume did, or spiritual ones as many religious folk believe.

I was going to comment on your early morning post but ran out of time. I think you gain much support in your thinking if you look at selfishness not as greed but, as many conservatives do, as self-interest, and selflessness, as many liberals do, as selfish security, then you can quickly see there is nothing intrinsic about either to associate altruism with one or egoism with the other.

Again, Adam Smith, from _The Theory of Moral Sentiments_: "How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it."

Mrs. Paddy
Iread something today I'd like to pass on as I think it fits very well here today. "Peace is seeing a sunset and knowing who to thank. The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have." I don't know who to credit with this but they too are wise beyond their time.

Lonestarblues
Thanks for the smile tonight....and, yeah, he is a great kid. In point of fact, both my young men are great (but I don't claim to be unbiased :-)

eastlake joe
Thank you too. This has been a really nice day on TH on this thread. I appreciate it.

VoR
JimmyJoe: As for this "we" placing iniffecient non profit ventures on a pedestal??? I would be interested to know who the "we" are...! I know of NO one who does.

VoR: What about Public Schools? Medicare? Welfare? These non-profit ventures are supported by a majority of the American public - not just by votes, but by their tax-dollars.

LOL! This cutting and pasting does keep the accuracy thingy in place. We "support" public schools, medicare and welfare with our "tax dollars." True.

However, "support" does is NOT the same thing as putting them "on a pedestal". I know of NO one who does. I would imagine that most of your TH co-posters - whom you are addressing - would be of like mind. I appreciate where you are coming from, but you are preaching to the choir here... but I will visit your blog!

VoR
However, I believe your definition of "selfLESSness" to be confused with "a proper self-interest"... And what you ahve to say about that makes no sense whatsoever.

Mischief
return2USSR:
"if you want to know what a Christian is, the ANSWER... is in a question:
"If you died today, do you KNOW you would go to heaven?"
If the answer is ANYTHING other than an unhesitant, unqualified and enthusiastic "YES!", you probably aren't a Christian.

Nicely spotted, Mischief. This is SO irritating!! I wonder "where in the Bible" is THIS written??? I was under the delusion that a Christian was defined by one's belief in Christ as the Son of God!!

return2USSR:
"he only selflessness that is good is the selflessness that Christ taught,"

"Only"? NOT so. There are LOTS of OTHER types of selfLESSnesses that are good too. This may be the ultimate, but doesnt make lesser acts of selfLESSness useless!!

lonestarblues
Just read your post... LOL! Nice to read a post here with which I can give my unqualified agreement!! VoR obviously doesnt understand the difference between self-interest, selfishness and selfLESSness.

Mr Vince
White "Christian" hatred??? Pathetic. This was hardly an exercise in Christian virtue. You are confusing what people DO with what they are SUPPOSED to do. Or not. Where, in Christian scripture or tradition are Christians TAUGHT that they SHOULD "hate"? Nowhere.

So when you come across "Christians" who hate, you SHOULD draw the reasonable and logical conclusion that they are hardly living as they SHOULD. They are - repeat it so you will get it - b_a_d Christians. Or in fact NOT Christian in any meaningful sense. Sort of like what Mischief pointed out to Valiant for Truth - actions speak louder than words....

So regardless of how much they would "proclaim" their faith, their actions would make liars out of them. Jezz, I used teach high school kids, some dim... but I would hope not as dim as to consider "hatred" as "Christian" behavior...

Mike--one of your BEST!! columns
IMO. I love your sarcastically humorous columns as well, but this one is seriously well thought-out and well-written, on at least a couple of very important topics contained within the book you praised.
I agree with your (and Mr. Burke's) comments on the "widespread neglect of children" and "a disdain for children who are all-too-often seen as obstacles to self-fulfillment for status-oriented Americans."

Since I have not read the book, I may be duplicating some of what Mr. Burke writes in it, but I would just add a couple of other travesties of some American parenting:

1. Parents who have such low moral expectations for their children that they do not even try to teach them, AND EXPECT THEM, to be chaste until marriage (and faithful after), AND to not drink AT ALL, AT LEAST until the age of 21, etc. Instead they supply them with condoms, and in some cases even throw keg parties in their homes for their high school age children.

2. Parents who give their little girls Brats dolls, etc. or other inappropriate toys and allow their daughters to be 'tarted up' in their style of clothing, which imitates the revealing clothing so often worn by older girls and women (if not that of actual sluts).

Mike, I also loved these excerpts:
"Individuals who have torn relationships with their earthly fathers will have a much harder time placing trust in their Heavenly Father."

"But John Burke understands what the pastors of so many failing churches do not: We must accept people as they are while simultaneously insisting that once they enter the church they will not stay that way."

"As Burke points out, we are all in a broken state of wanting to play God. The only difference between individuals lies in the willingness to acknowledge this brokenness. Just like the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, most people do not."

Again, great column!!

JimmyJoe - our failed Christian Heritage
Glad you recognize those screaming, cursing White bigots who terrorized the innocent Black students, were the ones in the wrong. And that they weren't displaying the virtues most religions require.... even if they were reflecting the prevailing prejudice.

Here's my point, and most modern Christian conservatives don't get it:

Till recently, many Whites espoused some form of Christianity. Jurors, judges, public officials, were required to affirm belief in Jesus. You could fire employees if you discovered they were a "wrong" religion.

Many Whites were devout, especially Bible-Belt residents (with Confederate Grandpaps).

It was these very Whites who either deliberately brutalized Blacks, or, they sat back and did nothing. Furthermore, their White Pastors got up in their Sunday pulpits and preached AGAINST integration, Civil Rights, miscegenation, social justice, etc.

How many Whites do you recall, who actually put their lives on the line to help Blacks in their rightful struggle? Some, but not many. Most Whites -- shamefully, most clergy -- were either hostile or apathetic to Blacks.

Yet -- modern Conservatives swear their grandparents were "far more moral" than folks today.

Really?

Where to go?
I agree with one of the earlier comments about people still having faith, but just don't know where to go. Raised Methodist, I have become disgusted with same. I am tired of the touchy-feely, one world, diverse, left wing messages, admission of homosexuals to the priesthood, lesbian asst pastors, and all the rest. I think God is a personal God, and I try my best to keep faith with my Christian principles. Recently, I have started watching some of the old Billy Graham Crusades being broadcast weekly by a local Christian TV channel, and frankly I find them refreshing - and meaningful.

Grand Paps
By the way, Vince, there's nothing wrong with having Confederate Grand Paps, or ant other Grand Paps. I have mine and am proud of them.

Pointing Fingers
What about the responsibility of the church for the sexual revolution?

The sexual revolution didn't occur in a vaccum. We jumped from WWII into the atomic age. What was the point of keeping yourself pure when you could be incinerated at any point by the heat wave of an atomic cloud?

All we today know about sex we learned by ourselves; to be promiscuous and to be monogamus and loyal.

We learned from Freud and Masters and Johnson and Norman Mailer. We learned from the self-destruction of so many of our heroes.

The church could not speak and does not speak.

The inability of the Church to meaningfullly counsel people in matters of sex is a sin the church refuses to address.

Our Sunday meetings are gatherings of people who pretend to be spade and nutered.

Aside from promoting abstinence -which has been the standard since the Council of Nicea- mention sex and all religious leaders stampede for the door in a panic over loosing half the congregation.

Our relatioship with God is not, and would never be, about abstinence but about growing from lust into love.


Storo's ancestors owned slaves?
Or did they work to free slaves, as they should have?

Mr Vince
Mr Vince: "Glad you recognize those screaming, cursing White bigots who terrorized the innocent Black students, were the ones in the wrong."

I presume you mean this innocently, or are you trying to be condescending? Rather "obvious," no?

Mr Vince: "Here's my point, and most modern Christian conservatives don't get it:
Till recently, many Whites espoused some form of Christianity."

This is too vague to address. How "recent" is "recently"? When you say "many" whites - are you talking about 100?.... 1000?... 10,000? I dont know the context, because you arent giving it any. Does this apply to only "whites"??

Jurors, judges, public officials, were required to affirm belief in Jesus.

What exactly do you mean by this? Swearing on the bible to "tell the truth" etc? Context again, Mr. Vince.

Mr Vince: "You could fire employees if you discovered they were a "wrong" religion."

WHO could fire employees??? I have never come across such a case.

Mr Vince: "Many Whites were devout, especially Bible-Belt residents (with Confederate Grandpaps)."

Ok. But I dont get your point. Being a "devout" Christian does NOT mean that one isnt effected OTHER cultural influences as well!

Mr Vince
Mr Vince: "Glad you recognize those screaming, cursing White bigots who terrorized the innocent Black students, were the ones in the wrong."

I presume you mean this innocently, or are you trying to be condescending? Rather "obvious," no?

Mr Vince: "Here's my point, and most modern Christian conservatives don't get it:
Till recently, many Whites espoused some form of Christianity."

This is too vague to address. How "recent" is "recently"? When you say "many" whites - are you talking about 100?.... 1000?... 10,000? I dont know the context, because you arent giving it any. Does this apply to only "whites"??

Jurors, judges, public officials, were required to affirm belief in Jesus.

What exactly do you mean by this? Swearing on the bible to "tell the truth" etc? Context again, Mr. Vince.

Mr Vince: "You could fire employees if you discovered they were a "wrong" religion."

WHO could fire employees??? I have never come across such a case.

Mr Vince: "Many Whites were devout, especially Bible-Belt residents (with Confederate Grandpaps)."

Ok. But I dont get your point. Being a "devout" Christian does NOT mean that one isnt effected by OTHER cultural influences as well!

Mr Vince
(Sorry Mr Vince... got posted twice by mistake!)

Mr Vince: "It was these very Whites who either deliberately brutalized Blacks, or, they sat back and did nothing. Furthermore, their White Pastors got up in their Sunday pulpits and preached AGAINST integration, Civil Rights, miscegenation, social justice, etc."

Again, so what? SOME of "these very Whites" brutalized Blacks, others didnt. SOME of their "White Pastors" preached against the above, others didnt.

But go deeper. SHOULD a Christian pastor - of ANY color - preach against integration, Civil Rights etc?? I would say "NO." And if he did, he wasnt living up to his Christain responsibility. But this again does NOTHING to prove YOUR point, or advance YOUR argument. You refer to "Christain hatred". I say to you there is no such thing! There are, however, MANY FAILED Christians. There are many who do not live as they should. Again, so what? The Christain Church is a church of failures and sinners!!

Mr Vince: "How many Whites do you recall, who actually put their lives on the line to help Blacks in their rightful struggle? Some, but not many. Most Whites -- shamefully, most clergy -- were either hostile or apathetic to Blacks."

Again, this doesnt advance YOUR argument - even if true - for the same reason as the previous one.

Mr Vince: "Yet -- modern Conservatives swear their grandparents were "far more moral" than folks today."

Again, you are making a VERY broad generalization. I dont know of ANYone who "swears" to this. But I would say - in SOME ways, they probably WERE "more moral." I recall a time when no one ever locked a door or a car, for example.

Really?

Mr Vince
Mr Vince: "How many Whites do you recall, who actually put their lives on the line to help Blacks in their rightful struggle?

You see, Mr Vince, MOST people MOST of the time - today AND yesterday - do NOT "put their lives on the line" for others. It is just the way we are. If YOU "put YOUR life on the line" for others, I would say YOU are exceptional.

And if you dont, I wouldnt hold it against you, because most OTHERS dont either - of ANY color. But I would find it rather strange if you criticised others for doing what YOU werent doing yourself.

Mr Vince
As for Storo's ancestors, the chances are that they would NOT have owned slaves, as only a MINORITY of Southerners did. Most fought for the Confederacy for the same reasons you would fight for your country, to prevent it from being invaded by the North. As to what Storo's ancestors "should" or "should not" have done, I dont think, with all due respect, you are to be the judge of that.

JimmyJoe - should haves
Indeed we must all judge those who turned a blind eye to blatant atrocities (horrors of slavery in antebellum South like beatings, rape, humiliations, denial of education, human rights; the horrors of Nazi persecution of Jews, etc.).

Another point you seemed naively unaware of: that until mid-20th c., employers were totally free to discriminate on religion, gender, race, ethnic origin, etc.

My (Jewish) mother cited a case in her day of a bright young secretary starting her first job. The bosses liked her work. On Good Friday they were all discussing where they planned on attending church Sunday. Secretary replied she wasn't going, she was Jewish. The boss terminated her on the spot and got away with it b/c there was no recourse back then.

Read an old newspaper. I saved old papers from the 40s - fascinating read. Browse the Classifieds section - Jobs, White Men only. Rooms to Let - White only. Domestic help wanted - Colored etc. etc.

Get the pic? Degrading.

Mr Vince
Mr Vince: "Indeed we must all judge those who turned a blind eye to blatant atrocities (horrors of slavery in antebellum South like beatings, rape, humiliations, denial of education, human rights; the horrors of Nazi persecution of Jews, etc.)"

Wrong. We may judge what they DID, or didNT do, but we may not judge THEM. You may judge the ACTIONS, but not the person. Those who turned a "blind eye" were as often as not in a POSITION to do a dang thing. It is easy for you and me from the luxury of THIS vantage point, but if YOU were on the ground, just about surviving yourSELF, with a family to support, I would respectfully suggest that you would also be hesitant to rock the boat. At least I would hope so!

By the way, there is STILL loads of the above you have listed - rapes beatings, etc going on in different parts of the world toDAY. What are YOU doing about it?

Mr Vince: "Another point you seemed naively unaware of: that until mid-20th c., employers were totally free to discriminate on religion, gender, race, ethnic origin, etc."

So? That's seventy YEARS ago! Nothing to do with "naivety".

Mr Vince
Mr Vince: "My (Jewish) mother cited a case in her day of a bright young secretary starting her first job. The bosses liked her work. On Good Friday they were all discussing where they planned on attending church Sunday. Secretary replied she wasn't going, she was Jewish. The boss terminated her on the spot and got away with it b/c there was no recourse back then.

"A" case?? Again, what is your point? I have NEVER denied this could or did happen.

Mr Vince: "Read an old newspaper. I saved old papers from the 40s - fascinating read. Browse the Classifieds section - Jobs, White Men only. Rooms to Let - White only. Domestic help wanted -Colored etc. etc."

Yes, yes yes. What is your point? Bad things happened in the past and Christians didnt do enough about it? Sure. But so what?

Mr Vince: "Get the pic? Degrading."

Yes, I know. Yawn. Of Irish background, I am aware that signs went up in many places "No Irish may apply." As a Catholic, I am aware that the Ku Klux Klan - supposed Christians - didnt like black, Catholics of Jews. So WHAT?

Mr Vince
Oh. And I am also aware of the fact that when the Irish first hit the shores here, those who went to Charleston and Louisiana often found themselves working in swamps where slaves werent allowed go. Because of yellow fever. Slaves were more valuable.

In addition, there wasn't much love lost between blacks and Irish. Why? Because they were often in direct competition for the BOTTOM rung!! Again, so dang WHAT? This had NOTHING to do with "Christianity." But everything to do with survival. Same with the poor whites in the south. Again, in direct competition with the blacks. Of COURSE there would be prejudice!!

Rich WASPS disdained Blacks...
.... from the get go of American history. So it wasn't just poor white (irish) who hated Blacks.

I never understood hating Black people, especially when they were brought here in chains and did the hardest labor to help rich Whites get richer and more powerful.

Did god care?

Henry Adrion as a role model?
Mike; while I agree with you on your article about the book No Perfect People Allowed; however Pat and Henry Adrion are not the example of individuals role modeled in this book. You should check your facts on him before quoting him as a positive role model. If you need facts; all you have to do is ask.
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