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Friday, August 31, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Of Mice and Mormons, Part V
by Mike Adams
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


On August 26, 2004, Mr. Ford met with Professor Wetchler, as Wetchler had requested via e-mail (see Parts I, II, III, and IV of this series for background information). At the outset of the meeting, Wetchler stated that he was representing all of the program faculty members when he said: “You’re not in trouble. This is an opportunity for you to make changes because we are extremely concerned about your behavior.”

The behavior to which Professor Wetchler referred was Mr. Ford’s letter to the editor regarding “same-sex marriage,” which he had written under the full protection of the First Amendment. Nonetheless, Wetchler continued by explaining exactly why the faculty was concerned about Mr. Ford’s letter to the editor: “If someone were to recognize your name, it might misrepresent the clinic, simply by your name.” He explained that the faculty wanted him “to stay underground, because we are worried about you being a therapist and hurting a lot of people with this type of article.”

Professor Wetchler elaborated on why such a letter to the editor might hurt people: “You are creating a hostile environment for the program, clients, and students.” Wetchler tried to argue that Mr. Ford had misquoted articles and misrepresented data in his letter but Mr. Ford declined to discuss the contents of the letter, instead saying: “It is simply an expression of my faith tradition which my religious doctrine compels me to speak out.”

Of course, Professor Wetchler did not see it that way. He said: “This is not about religion or First Amendment rights. It is about hurting people. And you hurt a lot of people. Students have read the article, other faculty in the department have read the article (not that we are passing it around) and you have hurt people.” Wetchler mentioned that Mr. Ford had “hurt people” at least seven times and repeatedly pressed for an apology. But Mr. Ford refused to deny his God in order to appease his professor.

Professor Wetchler next commented that faculty members were concerned about what Mr. Ford would teach regarding single parent families, children of divorced parents, and sexual identity as he was scheduled to teach Introductory Psychology and Adolescent Development in the upcoming semester. Mr. Ford responded: “I adhere strictly to the curriculum which I am given, and if it is necessary, I can provide my lectures for review.”

Professor Wetchler then told Mr. Ford he was “The most beloved student until three or four months ago. Now the faculty are enraged with you. None of the faculty, at this point, feel like they could write you a letter of recommendation unless you stop your aggressive behavior around LGBT issues and stop creating a hostile environment.”

It sounded very much like a threat. Indeed, Mr. Ford was being confronted with a choice between following his God and following his career. Indeed, for a marriage and family therapist, a doctoral degree is essentially a professional requirement. To get into a doctoral program, Mr. Ford needed several letters of recommendation – letters he had planned to get from the professors who once loved him.

As the conversation continued, Professor Wetchler went on to declare that Mr. Ford’s “religious beliefs create a hostile environment.” Wetchler then demanded that Mr. Ford make several behavior changes. First, he demanded that Mr. Ford “come directly to people.” Second, he demanded that Mr. Ford “stop intimidating faculty.” Third, he demanded that Mr. Ford “work with Kent Pierce on lectures dealing with single parents, children of divorce, and sexual identity for the classes you teach.”

After this, Professor Wetchler requested permission to ask Mr. Ford a personal question. After receiving this permission, he asked: “Why are you so interested in LGBT issues? For a guy as sensitive as you are, you are insensitive in this area.” Mr. Ford responded that this was merely one of many areas in which he had developed a professional interest. Others included such topics as parenting and marital relations. Wetchler responded, “Yeah, but why LGBT?”

At this point, Mr. Ford responded: “What are you getting at?” Professor Wetchler started to talk about how much Mr. Ford had hurt his feelings, how Mr. Ford was insensitive to his feelings when Mr. Ford wanted to explore issues surrounding homosexual conduct, and how much Mr. Ford’s conduct and positions hurt him.

Professor Wetchler concluded the meeting— one which had lasted nearly two hours—by telling Mr. Ford: “You are liked, but you are not beloved.” Wetchler also asked if he could review Mr. Ford’s notes from the meeting, a request which Mr. Ford obliged. After reviewing them, Wetchler nodded in agreement to what was written. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Ford met with Mr. Ken Pierce, as Professor Wetchler had instructed.

Mr. Pierce and Wetchler then decided that Mr. Ford should submit his class materials to Ms. Ann Edwards, an openly practicing lesbian, in order to determine if they were suitable. When Mr. Ford met with her in October, he described his classroom techniques. She responded by saying: “Wow, you sound as sensitive as they come.” She repeatedly assured him that he was being as sensitive and tolerant as she could imagine.

Nonetheless, as late as August 2005, the professors repeated their threats not to write letters of recommendation on Mr. Ford’s behalf. In Mr. Ford’s clinical work, many of his professors also served as his supervisors. Frequently, they would note his improvement, mention the letters of recommendation issue, and then say, “You’re not out of the woods yet.”

Then, one summer day, Professor Hecker was bored and had nothing to do. So she passed along a copy of Mr. Ford’s letter to the editor to Ms. Duffy-Greslo. Though she and Mr. Ford had been friends, she gave him an ultimatum: he must change his religious beliefs or she would no longer be his friend.

Could it be that certain faculty members at Purdue University Calumet were trying to destroy this man’s career in the long-term and make him friendless and miserable in the short-term? It all would have been so much simpler had he abandoned his religious beliefs in deference to the wisdom of the professoriate.

But Mr. Ford held firmly to his beliefs. And his story continues next week.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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van
good morning sweetheart. Let's roll!

Crap, I have to wait till next week?!
Amazing that those who demand tolerance are the most intolerant.

BOO HOO HOO YOU HURT MY FEELINGS......

More of the pussification of America....

Huh?
Van and Leo haven't made one comment so far -- what's going on?

Point blank these professors lost me when they started talking about their feelings getting hurt. I'm not paying that kind of money to worry about your feelings, I'm paying that kind of money to worry about your knowledge...


Offending is the worse offense.
These professors are a disgrace. They are the worst kind of bigots; the kind that will silence anyone who even disagrees in them in the name of "not offending others," all while actively discrimanting and offending anyone they please on the premise that they are enlightened and their opponents are emotionally and intellectually stunted.

It's pathetic. How does anyone even hire these wretches?

Open lesbian?
In the 'free thinking' halls of academe, one's view of homosexuality must be approved by a practioner of same? This sounds like the exploration of economics theory muust be approved by a Marxist. The questions of human origin must conform to a creationsts ideas only.

This insistance of the party line uber alles is in direct opposition to the finest traditions of education.

Mr. Ford should demonstate a grasp of the subject as presented, graduate and then conduct his life as he see fit.

pick me Van
Can I be your typical Christian bigot today? You can call me all sorts of names because I believe in God and disapprove of homsexuality on a moral level, but not a legal one.

You can even misquote me and Dr. Adams, restate all of our thoughtful and logical opinions as "we want to kill gays", demonstrate a fundamental lack of reading comprehension, butcher the English language, and generally make a fool out of yourself. I won't complain one bit.

But please, do not stoop so low as to wish harm to come to my family. I would never do such a thing to you or anyone else, regardless of how much I disagreed with them. We can all have some civil discourse here, right?

I'm waiting, big fella....

mikescott
This week's experience tells me that you don't need to incite our regrettably angry friend. Prof. Mike is handling that part quite nicely.

lead man
but, i miss the angry fellow!

Where is Van
I saw a Van post on another page and I reminded him that we would be looking forward to his wild accusations and silly arguments. USMC has called the christian bigot position for the day. I hope Van will have time to do some name calling towards me too.

Reading between the lines ...
In paragraph ten, "Professor Wetchler started to
talk about how much Mr. Ford had hurt his
feelings, how Mr. Ford was insensitive to his
feelings when Mr. Ford wanted to explore issues
surrounding homosexual conduct, and how much Mr.
Ford’s conduct and positions hurt him."

Professor Wetchler's comments here are really
odd because he seems to be way too hurt by Mr.
Ford's opinions. Professor Wetchler goes on and
on about how Mr. Ford is 'liked' but not
'beloved' by the faculty which is also wierd.

Professor Wetchler talks like a American Catholic
Bishop during that Church's sex scandal a few
years back which involved homosexual clergy
molesting boys. It is all so creepy.

One might come to the conclussion that there is a
high percentage of homosexuals in the faculty as
there is in the Catholic clergy which some
estimate to be over 60 percent.

I would suggest Mr. Ford either find a new
college to attend or a real job.

This story
in many other forms occurs universally in academia. The prevailing "tolerant" approach is "conform to our liberal ideals or else." Of course this situational totalitarian frenzy is called "sensitivity." The word may be harmless but its motivation chills the inquirying mind.

The conformity requirement for academic success reached the simmer level about fifty years old. I denied the then prevalent "wisdom" of Dr. Paul Ehrlich's "Population Bomb" where it was prgnosticated that the world would starve by the year 2000. Blasphemy I was told and my grade reflected it (the prof took joy in the fact that his grade reduced me from Summa to Magna Laude status). Well, Dr. Conformity, it is now 2007 and a surplus of food exists. The conformity requirement is now at the boiling point - the consequence of knowing that noone buys their nonsense anymore so they join hands in "group think" mentalities and call it scholarship.

Mr. Ford makes me proud.
I can't tell you how gratifying and inspirational it is for me to read of Mr. Ford standing his ground as he has. This is one man I would like to meet someday. I don't know how this story will turn out, but I am confident that, come what may, Mr. Ford will be blessed by God for his steadfastness. At the very least, at the end of the day, he can sleep soundly with the pleasant dreams of a clear conscience.

Who is John Galt?
read Atlas Shrugged. It will explain it all.

Consensus
Think about this series of articles whenever you hear that there is a "consensus" among the experts in the field. It is quite clear that, when it comes to politically sensitive issues, there is no tolerance for any dissent from the left-wing position.

To say that "if you want to become a therapist you must agree that homosexuality is healthy" BECAUSE "all therapists agree that homosexuality is healthy" is quite telling. If the standard for becoming a therapist is accepting homosexuality, then of course all therapists will accept homosexuality.

The same goes for global warming and evolution. No dissent is tolerated, perhaps because the emperor is not comfortable discussing his nudity.

Oh boy
So, to this part of the story I have no opinion about what happend between the professors and Jeff, as I was not involved in those discussions. I do want to explain some things to you to shed light on the program. I can say that Jeff is a sensitive guy, though.:)

First, our program is much different from many others in which you go to class, write papers, get the grade, maybe have some relationships with professors that exitsts due to similar beliefs and stimulating thoughts. Becoming a therapist is much more intensive, where we are dealing with emotional issues of clients, ourselves, etc. Lots of things come out of you when you are learning to be a therapist-things you may never knew existed. The professors, therefore, have a different kind of a relationship with you as they are deeply involved in your training. No, it is not incestuous. It does not cross boundaries. They tend to care about us both personally and academically.

That doesn't mean they can treat you bad, though. It does happen all the time. But, my point in writing this post is to explain more about the program, because what the professors were saying did make sense to me, even if they were not merited by Jeff's behavior. The mentoring you receive from the professors creates a pseudofamily, one that is very close, and often helps many people work through issues, as well as train them to be a therapist.


Oh boy, part 2
I think the context of the program is important to understand when discussing this part of the article. I am not denying or confirming what was said in the private conversations of the profs and Jeff. But, the nature of the program is an intimate one, and it has to be, in order to train people to be therapists. We have to trust each other because we all go through difficult times. And, we were together about 12 hours a day, every day. That may be why some of you had strong reactions to what was being said, but I thought it was important to share how close you do become to each other as students and with the professors.


Hardball Time at PCU
I think there are some questions that need to be put to the administrators of Purdue -Calumet, and more importantly to those who approve the funding of this taxpayer supported institution.

Is there a pro-LGBT litmus test requirement for inclusion in the Marriage and Family Therapy program at PU-C? Does anyone who does not approve of homosexual conduct, by definition, disqualify themselves for admission to, or good standing in, this taxpayer funded educational program?

I think it is time to get the people who are accountable to The People on the record. Obviously, I am not talking about the conflicted and morally depraved people that run the program itself. I think we already know where they stand.

college....psh
Yet ANOTHER reason not to go to college, not to metion graduate level college. I didn't "drop out," I fired my teachers. They were not worth the money.

The Refiners Fire ...
The Refiners Fire …

One thought comes to my mind. His personal integrity is being measured, as well as his character. They want to see if he can take the most difficult situations and turn them in to Something better, and to unravel the riddle that surrounds complex, social/emotional and personal issues without resentment, while remain undaunted, alone and unsupported by popular opinion. Truth is as God is no respecter of persons.

Now I do no feel so confused. It seems like the plan that God puts us thought to separate the goats and the sheep so to speak. I feel this has a successful conclusion.

I feel very good about. I am feeling strongly that this is true. Moreover, you Former Grad helped me come to that conclusion.

Of “Therapy” programs and the people...
...who run them.

A bunch of screwed up people attempting to help another bunch of screwed up people, while telling normally functioning people it is they who are screwed up.

Expectations
Do any of you expect anything else from perverts like these! Mr. Ford has a good civil harrassment case. Also the University could loose federal funding for this bigotry.

The story is good, but...
isn't it getting a little too drawn out???

Leo and Van...I have been reading your commentaries over the last few days and have not had time to respond, but today I do:

Generally, you believe that homosexuality should be embraced in our society and not shunned, but certainly you must realize society draws lines in the sand as to what is acceptable and what is not. Laws defining how we interact socially have existed since the oldest laws found. Why? Because murderers, rapists, pillagers, thieves and every other creep wants to live their life just the way they want also.

Now before you get riled up…don't say that I am comparing homosexuality to those things- I am merely demonstrating to you that laws are set in society to define what is socially acceptable and what is not. This is the very issue of the topic we are discussing…is it socially acceptable for a man to marry a man for example? You and I differ greatly on that point, nevertheless, that doesn't make me a racist or homophobe.

It's obvious that the homosexual movement and religion are at odds. Hardly any of the main stream religions cater to homosexuality...most consider it an abomination. So what is the average homosexual's response? They want nothing to do with it. It offends them and their lifestyle. Please note though, Van and Leo, that Christian tenets (for example) have existed for thousands of years ( i.e. the Ten Commandments). As a Christian, we do not make the law, rather God gave the law. Christian doctrine clearly establishes that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. I know you don't believe that. Why? Because it offends you and condemns your lifestyle, therefore your reaction is to call people who subscribe to this divine doctrine "homophobes" and "haters". Might we call you "Christophobes"?

Well...
Unfortunately for Mr. Adams, his story is now suspect because of Former Grad's testimony yesterday. We will never be sure of the truthfullness of the story, but we do know that similar events take place every year on campuses all across the United States.

Personally, I don't see the necessity of debating this case any longer. We've already seen the bigotted positions of the people who write their dissents. We've delved into 1st amendment issues, gay rights issues, morality and even a bit into the issue of pedophilia.

This story has just gone on to long and now I am "talked" out.

An expereience in the work place
Over 19 years ago, I was employed to restore stained-glass in churches. One of the questions I was asked, would you have trouble working with a person that was lesbian. It was no problem at all.

After a few months, I don't recall exactly when. But, we were having our lunch. She asked me if I knew that she was lesbian. I responded, "I understand that is the lifestyle you have chosen." Her response brought tears to my eyes. She said, "If I'd had a father like you, I would never ever have chosen this lifestyle." I gave her a hug and said, “I would be proud to have been your father."

We never know how we effect others lives, but one thing for sure, if you are content and proud or really pleased for good reason with your good example, good things happen. Cheers!

Adams' "suspect" story?
In the absence of proof, Adams' story is as susceptible as anyone's to suspicions, but the same may be said of Former Grad's "testimony" as well.

As for those who claim to have seen "the bigotted positions of the people who write their dissents," I would submit that the act of dissenting on moral issues does not make one a bigot.

What was Wetchler talking about?
I'd like to hear from Former Student on this one:

What could have been meant by "stop your aggressive behavior around LGBT issues " and "stop intimidating faculty?"

I find it pretty difficult to imagine what sort of behavior from a student would intimidate faculty, unless Mr. Ford had threatened to sue somebody. Had he? If so, on what grounds? How frequently? Did he have reason to do so?

I haven't read anything in this series to suggest "aggressive behavior around LGBT issues." On the contrary, it sounds like Mr. Ford had kept himself behind very strict guidelines on this topic, doing precisely what was required, no more and no less. That doesn't sound aggressive to me. What was Prof Wetchler calling "aggressive?" Was that his description of Ford's letter to the editor?

odd take on 1st Amendment
As with all of this, it is silly to take the slanting of facts too seriously. But occassionally one can judge some aspects based on the facts as given, and Adams here seems to show a rather bizarre misunderstanding of the 1st Amendment. The 1st Amendment protects the right to speak, it does not protect one from all consequences that follow from speaking.

If one publishes a letter that shows poor scholarship, it is absurd to suggest that scholars should not comment on the scholarship but should be content on the fact that it was stated with the protection of the 1st Amendment.

The fact that even with the slanting, Wetchler is right in their first exchange and Ford is wrong makes one wonder what the other exchanges were really like.

Biologists have had problems with writing letters for people who deny evolution. After all, there is little work to be done in biology if one does not accept the theory that underlies all of modern biology. It is certainly a real issue if his teachers were afraid that Ford would twist scholarship to fit with religious beliefs rather than following them to where they led.

A Great Weave
Well done. Looks like I need to get you book.
I will be here for next week. Cheers

I agree with you Norman
This is talked out. I am talked out. I am never going to think the way some people do, and they will never convince me that what I think or experience is wrong. This case may not be so difficult to comprehend if it was not one that is filled with values. I will never challenge anyone's values at any time unless I think they are subjugating others, hurting, or abusing others. We all need tolerance. We will not change people, I can guarantee that. It was nice participating in this discussion with you guys. I hope that some day, we can all live with and respect each other because every person has something to offer each of us, even if they do not subscribe to the same belief system we hold. I do not think the people depicted in this case are what most of you assume, and I will leave it at that. All of them are good people, and that was what I was trying to add to these discussions.

Time to extend "don't-ask-don't tell"
It's time to extend "don't-ask-don't tell" to the society-at-large. I don't care if you're gay and I don't want to know if you're gay. Are you a good citizen? Are you a law-abiding member of my community? BTW, my community is a municipality that includes EVERYONE not just those who are gay.

I don't know ANYONE who would discriminate against LGBT's, as long as they keep it private. I also don't know anyone who would discriminate against anyone who is LDS as long as they keep it private.

NOW if someone ASKS, the LGBT or LDS member should be free to be honest without fear of reprisal. BUT they should be prepared to be told that their chosen lifestyle or faith is not necessarily approved of or endorsed.

Bottom line: Grow up, people! Engage in CIVIL discourse! Disagree without name-calling, you losers! (just kidding :-)

Right Lon
"It is certainly a real issue if his teachers were afraid that Ford would twist scholarship to fit with religious beliefs rather than following them to where they led."


That was what I was implying all yesterday about ethical research. I do not know if Jeff would do that, but that is what the professors were afraid of. It is not saying that the professors are right and unbiased and Jeff isn't, and vice versa. People are marginalizing this issue. It is that whatever your value, you cannot twist research to support it. The professors support conservative beliefs, but I was getting the impression that they were afraid research would not be presented unbiasly, which could hurt others. We have biases, and we do research with those biases, but you usually control for those biases and maybe they were concerned they could not do that with Jeff. Thank you for articulating that nicely.

EMAIL
Here are the profs details if anyone would like to comment to him.


Details for joseph l wetchler:
Career Acct. E-mail: jwetchle@purdue.edu
Title: professor marriage and family therapy
Department: behavioral sciences
Campus: calumet
Building: ectr
Office Phone: +1 219 989-2587
Qualified Name: joseph.l.wetchler.1

Persecution comes in many shades
I have lost friends over the subject of my religious beliefs but never was my livelihood threatened, but then, I am a housewife! I am a Gnostic Christian. It means I do not believe in mainstream protestantism or Catholicism. I have studied many religions over the years but I was drawn back to Jesus Christ, time after time, and I finally accepted His Love as a reality despite my own misgivings. I have lost Christian friends because of my Gnosticism. My Catholic friends & family were angry when I chose not to return to the church of my youth. I have lost other friends because I am Christian & they were either witches or New Age believers. I have lost my dearest friend in the world, other than my husband when she became a fundamentalist and I told her I thought she was making a mistake.
You can try to change the subject but I am an honest person and if asked I will only speak what I truly believe is the truth. Some people are strong enough in their beliefs to allow me, mine, others are not.
The worse people, though are those who have NO BELIEFS of any kind - like that science professor I spoke of, here, earlier. They want to believe us mad for still believing & they are threatened by our confidence in our Lord and Master. They want to 'save the world' & they see us as a threat to the grand future they envision for mankind. They are not above intimidation & using whatever power they have over us. The only thing they will not do is draw blood. They fear us because deep in whatever soul they still have the siren call of the Divine still sings out.

Van and Leo where are you?
Your really great people. No, I mean it. You were like the shark in the shrimp holding tank. You kept us thinking and reasoning and provided a necessary context for challenge, that did more good in helping everyone interact.

I am really sorry you are not speaking up. Cheers

Lon, please reconsider
Biology and paleontology are not truly so concrete as to make many positions irrefutable, but they are far, FAR more so than psychology and counseling. So your observation that some biology instructors have trouble writing recommendations for students who show opposition to mainstream evolutionary theory is hardly applicable here.

Quite the contrary: the evidence supporting the currently favored position that gay behaviors are genetically determined is razor-thin, and that's being generous. And there are ample reasons to support the charge that the profession's favor toward the pro-gay position is entirely political, and not scientific at all.

So, to your notion that the faculty may be legitimately disciplining a religiously-biased student, it's perfectly legitimate to point out that there are two more likely possibilities:

1) That the horribly biased faculty is illegitimately disciplining a scientifically rigorous student; or

2) That a biased faculty is disciplining a biased student.

In my mind, this latter is most likely the case; what we're watching is the pot calling the kettle black, and following that up with "Oh, and by the way: the pot controls your destiny, so you'd better scrub yourself REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL good..."

Does that seem scientifically defensible to you?

I don't see the 1st Amendment involved (except if you argue that a university accepting state funds makes it an agent of the sate; that seems to work with elementary and secondary schools); but I can see plenty of reasons why parents should shun Purdue's grad school, and why state funds should be withheld.

Choice vs. Conscience Part 1
In going back to read, and enjoy the thread, which went dead for me when Leo and Van failed to consider Adams description, in effect a Lab, on this experience of two Mormon’s.

My mind wants to be objective, my heart wants to be considerate, and my conscience wants to be true, moral and just, while my spirit wants to temper it in loving compassion and forgiveness. Facts are dead without understanding the spirit, heart, mind and the experience of the soul behind it.

If the message is not telling me what I want to know, I have to reconsider my position, perspective, and the how’s, why’s and wherefores, if it is the truth, I cannot rationalize away that fact or self-evident truth. I must understand it and where applicable apply it.

Conscience vs. Choice. WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE BUT THAT CHOICE MAY LEAD TO THE LOSS OF FREEDOM. It is obvious that conscience must guide us. But what is conscience? WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN CONSCIENCE!

We are bound by universal principle and law. IN ACTUALITY MAN DOES NOT CREATE A PRINCIPLE OR A LAW -- THEY ARE ETERNAL WITH GOD AND IN NATURE.

A men of conscience can discover the laws and determine their role, benefit and consequence in their life and that of a society. But, without a good conscience it will not unite a society.

I'm very concerned abou this notion...
...of "hurting others."

I get the reference to counseling, yes. But Wetchler was talking about "hurting US", and Former Student is talking about RESEARCH "hurting people."

Since when is the measure of correct scholarship whether it "hurts people" or not? Truth is truth, and the job of the scientist is to discover truth no matter how unpleasant.

This sounds like a veiled form of special pleading to me: like, "Yes, you may have a point about homosexuality looking like a pathology, but you can't say that because it would HURT THEM."

Guys, the truth is the truth. You don't get to bend it because somebody might not like the results.

fsudenny
Great comments. When I got my PhD in psychology in the late 1970s we were taught a boat load of nonsense that I had to recover from, but I never believed crazy stuff like they do at Purdue. What an embarassment that professors would be so corrupt and lacking in insight.

Are these faculty members for real?
What sort of PhD sits around complaining about hurt feelings? They must be inconsolable if they get a bad peer review on paper submitted for publication.

I think Mr. Ford made a very bad decision when choosing the program that he picked. He could be an agnostic, but still find homosexual behavior undesirable, but he'd have the same issues in the department. Before going into one of these programs, it's probably good idea to examine the prevailing dogma of the field and if it looks ridiculous, find another option. He could have gone to BYU or several other schools in the west and run into a lot fewer of these idiots. He probably should have bailed after the first year and transferred to a school with fewer whiners.

There are some programs where religious fundamentalism is not a good fit. If you argue creationism on an ecology or geology exam, you're going to get a really bad grade.

Choice vs. Conscience Part 2
We all understand things very differently because of conscience. A good conscience leads to continuous growth and development, harmony and cooperative effort, spiritual, emotional and social justice mercy and prosperity. IS IT NOT THEN IMPORTANT OT DEVELOP GOOD CONSCIENCE?

con- meaning (with,)
science meaning (a body of knowledge.)
Conscience meaning, (with a body of knowledge.)

Good conscience is a good body of knowledge
Bad conscience is a bad body of knowledge.

To know what you know, and to know that what you do know and understand is true and self-evident, that it does not conflict in principle, in law, moral or social values or endanger, hinder, or limit anyone in their pursuit of happiness. So long as it does not hinder, interfere or compromise in anyway the agency, progress and happiness of another free agent we are free to choose. This leaves no room for deception, ignorance or a compromise with a principle, law or moral standard. This cannot be ignored without some corrective measure to avoid consequence, and in that order.Cheers!

Profs not afraid of reseerch
they're afraid an occaional student won't tow the political line and endorse homosexuality.

This saga is disturbing on so many levels.

1) West and Ford are evidently being persecuted because the Purdue faculty is opposed to LDS (and maybe all religious beliefs) and is instructing students to change their faiths--a horrendous violation of civl liberties from the Const. to civil rights laws

2) No therapist or doctor or stock broker has to work with and/advise clients inimical to the professional's moral/ethical code (Ethics are codes of conduct.)

3) The evident demand that an ambivalent patient would be forced into practicing homosexual conduct because the Purdue factulty propagandizes for this sexualtiy is academically unjustifiable

4) Students basically interested in praciticing family and couples therapy among their fellow worshippers are unlikely to encounter the situations the Purdue profs constantly promulgate

5) If I were Mr. West or Mr. Ford, I'd get the devil out of that program. It sounds skewed beyong amendment and belies the so-called university purpose of open-mindedness and reasonable debate

Assuming the facts are...
...as they have been reported, if it turns out that the situation becomes irreconcilable and Ford is in danger of being thrown out of the program, then perhaps it would be advisable to meet with the professors and say something along the following lines:

"Look, we are obviously not coming to agreement, so let us make a deal. Give me a recommendation, and I will transfer to another University. We can keep it cool and avoid bad press arising from legal action. I will not use legal means as long as I can move somewhere else. If I cannot get a recommendation, then you will have effectively shut me out of this profession on account of of my religion. I would have no other recourse than to take legal action. "

Personally,
I have a real difficult time believing that I'd ever want to see "therapists" who are so sensitive and feeling. At some point, if I felt that I had a real personal problem to address, I'd want someone more rational and analytical to help me. Why in the world would I want someone who would merely "feel my pain"?

Am I being insensitive?

It's no surprise....
....that some posters, during this series, can't see the incredible danger of leftist academics demanding socialist groupthink, and then use their positions in a public university to implement that agenda. I'd bet the academic Torquemada who wishes to destroy this studnet deeply regrets that the university doesn't have reeducation camps.

Then again, the redirecting posters may truly know their hypocrisy which then compels them to segway into some discussion about gay vs. straight. This series isn't about that. This is about destroying someone who doesn't think like an institution demands and that, on the taxpayer's wallet.

I'm very serious when I say; to be a leftist is to stay a child and to deny history. Regarding the former, children use the "hurt feelings" ruse to manipulate his or her environment. In the latter, many millions have been murdered by those who demand everyone adopt an ideology that dictates thought control and rigid obedience to the state, in this case, the administration.

At the end of this series, I'd like to see if some political potentate takes up this young man's cause. I won't hold my breath.


inkling_revival
You are certainly right that it is possible that the faculty is simply trying to enforce its slanted views on a student, who may or may not be biased. I don't know exactly how to weigh the possibilities. The three possibilities seem to be

unreasonable teachers reasonable student
unreasonable teachres unreasonable student
reasonable teachers unreasonable student
(obviously all being completely reasonable is inconsistent with the account above thought that may be unfair. Even reasonable people sometimes wind up at loggerheads).

I assume we can all agree that which ever of the possibilities was the case, Adams would prevent the case as he does above. So his presentation does not guide us here.

But even if one thinks that psychology is not as fixed as biology (reasonable enough) it cannot be the case that psychology professors should be unconcerned with whether their students are basing their conclusions on the best science available, or on preconceived moral or religious beliefs. Why would anyone who believed that psychology is such a crapshoot go into teaching and researching psychology.

trotter
You are not being insensitive. Hypersensitive therapists are great for self justification but lousy for results. If you are serious about change, you need to DO things that you are uncomfortable with. You have to do things that you may not feel natural doing at first. As an object lesson, when I was young I had the chance to take a few tennis lessons with a tennis pro. He asked me to show him my serve, which I did. He then said something along the lines of the following: Look, you could survive with that serve, but you will never get very good. Changing is tough and if you do change, you will get worse before you get better. The medicine was bitter, but he was right. It was awkward because I was so used to serving the other way and it was so uncomfortable the new way. Although I ended up becoming worse at first, I did get better. By not quitting, I found that I could do sooo much more with my new serve than I ever could have done otherwise. I am glad I stuck with it. What would have happened if the pro had said something along the lines of the following: obviously, you will never be a tennis pro yourself so don't worry about your serve, you will be fine. I would never have improved. Sometimes it is necessary to damage our self-esteem to develop some REAL self-esteem.

is it just me or is it dark at perdue?
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matt. 15:14

It seems many "conservatives" ...
I have been reading TH for many years, almost from inception (although posting only recently). I have come to the conclusion that many "conservatives" do not know what they're conserving, nor do most liberals understand what they're "free" about.

Many of the positions conservatives support are more liberal than those on the other side. Conversely, many "liberals" advocate "right-wing" ideas. I believe that the reason is that the one-dimensional spectrum foisted on us in centuries past does not serve us well today. Better, I believe, to envision a field, two-dimensions, where personal liberties in different spheres can be measured against different canons.

It might be useful to try the World's Shortest Political Quiz (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html).

It might surprise you.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Lon
Lon writes: "If one publishes a letter that shows poor scholarship, it is absurd to suggest that scholars should not comment on the scholarship but should be content on the fact that it was stated with the protection of the 1st Amendment."

There is a difference between opposing same-sex marriage and discriminating against homosexuals. Opposing one position does not equate into discrimination. That would be the same as MADD discriminates against alcoholics in everything.

Lon writes: "Biologists have had problems with writing letters for people who deny evolution. After all, there is little work to be done in biology if one does not accept the theory that underlies all of modern biology..."

The problem with your analogy is 1)it shows the discrimination (bigotry) against an opposing position which is not conducive to scientific study; 2)biology has made many changes to its usage of evolution specifically because the evidence before biologists did not fit with evolution as stated; 3)learning to apply an underlying theory is different than considering it as proven and no longer a theory.

The Prof is a Poof...
...and the 1st Amendment does not mean you cannot suffer for your remarks.

It seems reasonable to assume..
We were all born with "free will" and while genetics may shape us it can not guide us. We must look for that guidance from some other source. Here we have a student getting some very hostile guidance while being told what to think and how to act and he has the free will to accept or reject this guidance.
Course if it were me--I'd just sue the hell out of them.

I couldn't be a therapist...
...I'm too tactless and judgmental.

I usually stay away now
from threads like I am sure this has been and will become, but it is very interesting how feelings trump anything else, especially those of the "disenfranchised." It is utterly ironic they can claim openness and be so closed to someone with a strong religious faith. And what it boils down to is that they don't like being told they can't do what they want to do.

Virginia Daddy...
That's because my feeling trump your feelings if you hurt my feelings first. And if I perceive myself as a "victim" then your feelings don't count, even if you're morally, ethically and biologically in the right.

Clear?

Big Daddy
You are correct, the first does not shield you from critisism. However when done on your own time, not on the clock as it were, there should be no repercussions as a student.

Were a religious professor, there's bound to be a couple out there, to have a student write an Op/Ed to the local paper discussing homosexual issues or defending gay marriage and the professor use that as part of his assesment of the student he would be just as wrong.

leroy
I concur. However, the Poof Prof obviously 'feels' that Mr. Ford contrary views to that of the "esteemed faculty" would have a negative effect on the M&FC program as a whole.

He does have a right to confront. However, he does not have the right to threaten him in anyway, shape or form. Not openly, anyway, as we are seeing.

It's like walking into a biker bar and denouncing the virtues of Harley's and questioning the manliness of the riders and then saying you're only exercising your 1st Amendment rights. You will suffer for your remarks. I'm not saying it is right, but I'm saying don't expect a free pass either.

Big Daddy
Clear as a whistle (what the heck does that mean, anyway?)

And I agree on the premise that free speeach does not guarantee freedom from consequence. if only that were as clear to the left when they use their right to free speech.

Virginia Daddy...
That's because they shout louder and act more hysterical.
Reminds me of when my little ones throw a temper tantrum in a public place; you try to do anything to get them to quiet down until you can get them out of the store and into a more private place to discipline them.

(I guess it means a crisp, clear sound? I find most whistles shrill.)

Big Daddy,
Yeah. You are right, they kick and scream much louder. And the tantrums are a good description, I think. And we don't tolerate them in public. We promptly remove them... Granted, its a bit easier, our oldest is but 26 mos...


VD (heh heh hee)
9 yrs, 7 yrs, 4 yrs, 20 mos and one in the oven due in Nov.

BD

Sorry...
The VD thing just came too easy...no offense :-)

The true reason for the article.
Mr. Adams is writing a Mormon apologetic.
Alex,Galatians 1:8-9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
No he won't be blessed. The Mormon gospel is described perfectly by Paul in Gal 1:8-9.
Spiceman, the new age gospel you preach, as warm and fuzzy as it is, is just as condemned.
Caballerokid is right, but for another reason. Adams is trying to hide what he's doing.
I'll post more details at coffeeshopprophet at your blogs here.




Mr. Ford is still at PU-C
His religious beliefs should have never been questioned in the first place--that is discriminatory. Why should Mr. Ford leave the program when he has been wronged?

Do the people in this program believe they will never meet with people who do not agree with their opinions? And that is all they are--opinions.

To the dads:
"Clear as a whistle"--because a whistle is easily distinguishable amongst other noises.

Is Purdue Teaching the State Religion?
Or are they teaching psycology?

Psycology does have a number of well established principles, but when it comes to areas like this, where there is much disagreement among professionals, any professor is way off base in demanding that the student blindly accept THEIR particular version of what is right. REAL SCIENTISTS question; sometimes they even question "well established principals".

When there is no longer room for a Galileo or an Einstein or a Hawking, how can science ever advance? All challenged the accepted "facts".

Furthermore, when a STATE UNIVERSITY, using public funds suggests that a student discard his religion to stay in their program, they have really crossed the line and are deserving of a severe penalty.

Former Grad
I do not understand the professors' treatment of Mr. Ford. Their words and actions sound like a fear reaction. If you can't handle having someone disagree with you, you need to find a different profession.

Big Daddy
I'd say BD, but doesn't have the same effect. No problem. I am surprised no one else has used it. I realized that right after I selected the name... Oh well.

Yeah, we've got the 26 month old and an 11 month old. None on the way... But two 15 mo's apart is enough for now.

Pam
Thanks. New there was something more specific in the term.

Coffee
Not sure if he is supporting Mormonism here, only bringing out the hypocrisy and irrationality of the professors.

this series points out
prime reason real men don't do "therapy"


claiming victimhood status trumps all

feelings are just feelings
As I read Mike's piece, I was horrified by the degree to which these professors worshipped and tenderly consulted, stroked, and considered their own "precious" feelings as if somehow, their feelings were more important than anyone else's. This extraordinary degree of self absorption strikes me as a form of masturbation in which the individual strokes and strokes and strokes their feelings. Yuck...it left me feeling queasy.

Taking too long!!
Mike really needs to speed this up. This is an interesting article but I feel like I am being set up every time I get to the end of a segment. He should at least tell us how many parts there are.


Feelings
If the profs are so wrapped up in their "feelings" then they are violating their own professional ethics.

Sorry
I must apologize,,, I have apparently offended some GAY RIGHTS supporters by showing how the PROCESS of RIGHTS (gay rights) being implemented by JUDGES WILL be copied by PEDOPHILES.

I'm sorry,,,,
I'm not comparing the acts,,, only how RIGHTS are recognized by JUDGES and not society.

Please make yourself feel BETTER by comparing the PROCESS of GAY RIGHTS to that of INCESTS, or POLYGAMISTS.
You don't have to deal with CONSENT and these groups are (apparently) more acceptable to EVERYONE than pedophiles.

NOW,,,,, Should society determine that INCEST or POLYGAMY is wrong and make laws against such or is it right for JUDGES to (follow the GAY RIGHTS example) change society LAW? And are we currently discriminating against the folks who currently wish to practice these?


If you can't tell,,, i'm tryin real hard to be sensitive here.... (did'nt even bring up bestiality, necrophilia, obesity, red heads, transexuals, and hockey players named RALPH. Those Rights are to be discussed another day.)

Scooter
You are right indeed. What's the saying, give an inch...

Coffeeshopprophet
Are we feeling just a bit self righteous today?

Do you think that you really are God's chosen prophet? Just wondering.

van
where are you, sweet britches?

Gender non-conformists...
HAH! That is a good one!!

Coffee Shop
Nothing like preaching gospel from the NIV, the version from those who can't understand the plain text of the King James. Wait, you're a prophet, what do you need Scriptures for anyway?

drwings
Actually, I think using multiple versions to study is the best way to get closer to the originals. Relying on the KJV, just as relying on the NIV, alone is dangerous.

Adams
Mike: GET IT OVER WITH,O.K.? Can't take too much more of the two drama queens. I've tried to follow this, but with all their caterwauling, makes it tedious. Seems like this is more an issue of play "Smooch Prof. Rear" if you want to get anywhere.

Sue Purdue
Since Purdue is a state school, it is bound by constitutional restrictions imposed on all government entities. Right now, the ACLU (believe it or not) has filed suit against West Virginia University on behalf of a return Mormon missionary whose scholarship was suspended after his return from a two-year mission. WVU imposed this restriction notwithstanding the fact that leaves of absence are given for military leave and community service. The WVU case is an obvious violation of the 1st amendment. Likewise, the Ford case is indicative of gross discriminatory treatment of Mr. Ford on the basis of religion. Purdue faculty is free to disbelieve religion but no persecute those who do believe. That violates Ford's constitutional rights. The Purdue faculty should be sued under 42 USC 1983 for a civil rights deprivation.

scooter
"NOW,,,,, Should society determine that INCEST or POLYGAMY is wrong and make laws against such or is it right for JUDGES to (follow the GAY RIGHTS example) change society LAW?"

You make a very good point, and don't forget, there was a time, under the "law of Moses" when polygamy was accepted as normal but homosexuality was punishable by death.

Now, since these professors want to deny the moral authority of any religion and practice as though there were no God, they must realize that if there is no God, there is no right or wrong. Ergo, no moral authority or for that matter any authority of any kind.

Maybe they should be taking instruction from Mr. Ford. He seems to me to be much more "normal".

I already apologized
I already told VAN i was sorry for comparing the process of GAY and PEDOPHILE RIGHTS.

If i had known it was going to be this hurtful to him I would have put a WARNING at the beginning...

I guess i'm just full of HATEFUL speech. SIGH

freetothink
You really shouldn't use Van's tactic of misleading. Mike disagrees with the Mormon doctrine and you call it hate.

Scooter
What about hockey players named Bubba? (We do have a few of those in North Carolina.)

Virginia Daddy
"Actually, I think using multiple versions to study is the best way to get closer to the originals. Relying on the KJV, just as relying on the NIV, alone is dangerous. "

Good point, but in this case the message of each version for Galatians 1:8-9 is pretty much the same.

Coffeeshopprophet:
I just don't see why I am supposed to feel convicted by Galatians 1:8-9 any more than any other Christian should. It is good counsel for anyone, only it does not make it clear who's modern interpretation corresponds with Paul's meaning. Any person could accuse another of preaching the incorrect gospel and many do, but using that scripture doesn't prove your position any more than it proves mine.

Former Grad
Thanks for coming into the conversation here. I've been lurking all week and have appreciated the insight you bring to the Purdue program.

We should remember
when Lenin ruled the USSR, by 1919, Russia had outlawed the religious or "hearth" marriage, legalized abortion, birth control (still radical at the time),incest, homosexualtiy, prostitution, children born "out of wedlock," women's keeping their own names in "marriage," and offered free healthcare, nurseries, childcare, and no special acknowledgement of marriage and family. Women were "voted" completely equal rights altho' prostitution was one of women's most prevalent occupations. Much of the same process happened at the start of the Fr. Rev.

Between the Russian revolution in 1917 and a decade of civil war, the USSR suffered famine, typhus and cholera epidemics, foreign invasion, and insupportable national debt. One result was millions of orphans, probably cannabalism in the far East, acute labor shortage, and national joblessness. Citiy services disintegrated; entire towns and farms were abandoned. Countries do not succeed without a foundation of family and kinship relations.

By 1936, Stalin had re-instituted the "hearth" marriage, spec. housing and food rations were given to families, women were given "bonuses" for bearing legal children, and the soviet had re-criminalized abortion, (even) birth control, incest, homosexualtiy, and illegitimate births. And the USSR was officially an atheist wmpire.

Societies that consciously try destroying the institution of marriage, the so-called nuclear family, and promote other forms of sexual practice and "familial" association do not thrive. I doubt the US will in the long run either.

Options
I think its ludicrous that Purdue censures its students on the basis of religion. The majority of people in America believe in a God. If you're a counselor, that means your patients are more likely than not to have a religious frame of reference. How can you treat someone effectively if you openly deny and even oppose a core part of their value system? This is clearly an attack on religion in general.

Why is it that the majority of Americans are letting a whining minority lead us around by the nose on issues like these? Truly sad...

Neal

A PROFESSORSHIP in PSYC.
At a major university is a very convenient pulpit from which to promote a radical sexual adjenda.

Students, and especially grad. students can be blackmailed and browbeaten into accepting the professors warped veiws and adjenda and "weeding out" those who have strong moral convictions of their own. I wonder if that was what was going on here? It certainly looks that way.

If these professors were misusing their position, there needs to be some serious legal challenges against the program at Purdue and the individuals involved in what appears to be a conspiricy.

You make a very legitimate point
coffeeshopprophet writes:
Friday, August, 31, 2007 4:03 PM
The true reason for the article.

People need to be taught the law before it is ratified, or it would incriminate those who were abiding the former interpretation.

Another Gospel? what do you understand as the Gospel of Jesus Christ? You have expressed your opinion on a new age gospel. Please explain what a new age gospel is. I would like to understand your view. I appreciate your frankness and will be forthright and sincere to your welcome opinions. Cheers!

--coffeeshopprophet wrote:
No he won't be blessed. The Mormon gospel is described perfectly by Paul in Gal 1:8-9.
Spiceman, the new age gospel you preach, as warm and fuzzy as it is, is just as condemned.
Caballerokid is right, but for another reason. Adams is trying to hide what he's doing.
I'll post more details at coffeeshopprophet at your blogs here.

Oh1 One thing more. I respect you and I respect Adam, and If he Hates Mormon's I would leave it up to him. If he does, I still respect his position. I believe you will find Gal 1:8-9 is referring to any one who does not preach the atonement on the cross, the mercy by which we are saved and the conditions: Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost who teaches all thing what we desire to know and understand. Further more that Christ is our Savior to all them that believe that the Father hath sent Him to redeem the world from sin. Amen.
(New Testament | 1 John 4:20 - 21)
(New Testament | Matthew 5:11 - 12)
(New Testament | Mark 9:38 - 41)
(New Testament | 1 John 3:10 - 14)

A bold warning worrh repeating
renny writes:
Friday, August, 31, 2007 8:24 PM
We should remember

You opened my eyes to a part of history I entirely ignored. Thanks. Very impressive.
A bold warning worth repeating here.

See renny above^

Please do some research
on what the training of marriage and family therapy is. It may have developed from psychology but is a systems view of individuals, that is the contextual influences of society, family, work, etc. on individuals. We treat individuals in the context of their relationships with others and the influences of others on them. There is no one laying on a couch in our sessions. Furthermore, we are not even members of APA, but rather AAMFT. We do not "shrink" anyone's minds or any other stereotype that therapists have assigned to them.

Why Jeff would choose this field, like many other LDS students, is because it serves the very institution they strive to uphold-the family.

Again, I think it is important to understand the ethics of doing therapy. It is not that any of us had to adhere to the beliefs of our professors, but that the values we adhere to not be pushed on anyone we see. When people are actively diseminating information that directly outlines their beliefs, when it does go against the philosophy of the program and the people who are students in it, as well as the people the program serves, there will be some sort of a consequence to that. I am not saying it is right, or the professors are correct in their behavior, but as many people posted, you will have consequences when you are advertising your beliefs among people who do not believe them. Just like I get posts attacking my beliefs on here because I am posting differently than you.

Also...some other facts are not being discussed correctly. Jeff is done with the program-he graduated last year. And the email you gave for the head of the program is wrong.

All the talk of hurt feelings is to...
The whole point of the Multiple hurt feelings statements, intimidated peers, et cetra, is not some weakness of reason, or failure of logic. It is a planned set up, this fellow lost the momment the tolerent crowd successfully labeled his talk as violence. His column and ideas are not free speach, they are now an assult, and he must be destroyed.

clone
It is the folklore of doctoral programs that the doctoral student should become a clone of his/her major professor. In some cases that is a truly frightening thought.

Not all programs are as bigoted as Purdue but you do have to be very careful about not offending the professors. What is really concerning about schools like Purdue is that their prejudice extends to the journal articles that they review. In other words you can not get anything published that disagrees with their biases.

The idea that science is a "truth discovery" mechanism is dead. Modern Science is a propaganda machine for the biases of the dominant philosophy of the discipline. That is especially true for the social sciences. We are in a "post modern" era where the truth is something you construct. If you dominate the discipline, why not construct "truths" that conform to your biases if you can?

If you see it in a journal you had better review the methods and the spin before you believe it. The theory you start with, the methods you employ, how you spin the results and who you have for reviewers and editors predetermine what you do or do not find and what you can or can not get published.

APA has very strict politically correct rules for publication.

Jake and Mormons
You wrote:
"I hope Mr. Adams doesn't hate mormons, but he should hate mormonism."

Your blog demonstrates your blatant ignorance of my religion and your own brand of bigotry, which I find amusing considering your claim of being a Christian. Do you honestly think Christ behaved the way you do?

And you have no right to label my religion as a "cult" any more than I do to label yours as one. You don't define who is or is not a Christian. That's a personal commitment and conversion each individual must make on their own. God is my judge - not you or any other group of elitist Christian nay-sayers.

Neal



Former Grad
I appreciate your comments. I can also vouch for MFT programs. My wife did her undergraduate in the family sciences at BYU, including some research projects in Marriage and Family Therapy. As a husband, I can't say what an asset that has been to our family. I agree with Jake on Psychology, but have a different take on MFT.

realneal
Try not to get too worked up about cult accusations. Remember the great and spacious building. ;)

Mike Adams does not hate anyone
In his message I think he has left some things to our imagination, and what we imagine really tells us where we are personally. Not for ill but for good.

As we see the world, the world reflects who we are. the beauty or ugliness that we see in others is only a reflection of our won nature. For it is written:

(New Testament | Matthew 7:1 - 2)
1 JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

If my understanding is ignorance to you, then teach me the truth by your example. If I do not love the truth, if I do not follow Christ, and if I do not repent, then who is my judge?

(New Testament | John 12:48)
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Is it not written, he that is greatest is the servant and the lest of all.
(New Testament | Matthew 23:10 - 12)
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Friends, If we know these things shall we not do them.
But if I am at fault, is it not to my favor to know of my folly?
(New Testament | Luke 15:7)
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

(New Testament | Romans 13:10)
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

"Clear as a whistle"
According to an instructor mannnnnny years ago:

When held in the mouth awaiting use, the whistle becomes clogged with a human secretion (spit) and will not function. Thus to clear a whistle, makes it clear (of spit) and useable.

Now, aren't we all enlightened?

Thanks Spiceman
We tend to run around in circles, as if whatever happens today is unrelated to past exp.

In the beginnings of the Fr. Rev., everyone was "comrade," so as not to distinguish rank, the church (RC) was attacked (since next to the monarchy, the church was the most powerful inst. in the country), and the feudal cast of aristocrats was practically eliminated.

Fr. had already been experiencing famine, which is one reason for the Rev. The practices of the revolutionaries turned famine into disaster. Between war and revolution, Fr. exp'd a huge drop in population, and all the attendant pathologies that develop when basic social structures like the family are disassembled.

My take on homosexual rights is no ancient culture, which had no proscription based on religion against it, ever devised a spec. category of law for homosexuals: not ancient Egypt, not Greece (which had a thriving homosexual milieu), not Rome, not the Indus Vally, not China.

No modern non-people of the book (Jews, Christians, or Muslims) have instituted spec. civil rights for homosexuals: not Confucianism, not Buddhism, not Taoism, not Shintoism, nor any animistic religion or culture in the entire world.

Homosexualks are free to form legal partnerships like any business, give each other powers of attorney, leave all assets to one another through wills, and buy ins. of any kind rogether. They are equally protected under the Const. as people of the US.

Plus Three Dictionaries..
Virginia Daddy writes: Friday, August, 31, 2007 5:41 PM
drwings
"Actually, I think using multiple versions to study is the best way to get closer to the originals. Relying on the KJV, just as relying on the NIV, alone is dangerous. "

===

Webster's 1913 Dictionary
(The most correct Dictionary of biblical English)
Our English to day is not correct English, it has been eroded by slipping misused words of untoward meanings in, which have muddled our language.

English Greek Dictionary
English Hebrew Dictionary

Prejudice is dangerous too. Caused by ignorance and misleading and distorted information about others, that are accepted as true, without any reliable proof.
(New Testament | 1 Thessalonians 5:21)
21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

When what we apply, applies to us.
Jake writes: Saturday, September, 01, 2007 8:48 AM
jake wrote:
Mormonism is a cult

"An angel told me in a cave." "I read from special plates, even
though I'm illiterate." "Black people are damned, we'll change
that later when it becomes politically incorrect." "Have as many
wives as you want, we'll change that too when it becomes
politically incorrect." "Don't concern yourself that none of the
places mentioned in what I wrote actually exist, you'll all be
gods someday."

jake, you seem very sincere, a respectable and honorable position.
While your information’s inaccurate and out of context. Not a
good representation you a person as noble and sincere as you seem.
Believing something does not make us an evil cult.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Cult\ (kalt) n .[F. culte, L. cultus care,
culture, fr.
colere to cultivate. Cf. {Cultus}.]

1. Attentive care; homage; worship.
Every one is convinced of the reality of a better self, and
of. the cult or homage which is due to it. --haftesbury.

2. A system of religious belief and worship. That which was the
religion of Moses is the ceremonial or cult of the religion of
Christ. --Coleridge.

Hypocrites and Liars
Hypocrites and liars??? Hmmm. Let's start a list, shall we?

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker,
Marvin Gorman,
Jimmy Swaggart,
Oral Roberts,
Peter Popoff
Robert Tilton
Benny Hinn
Jim Whittington
Gene Scott

and the list goes on.

And were the people following these charlatans a cult? You bet!! According to Websters, one of the characteristics of a cult is "Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work". In that sense, Christianity as a whole is a CULT.

And there is nothing hypocritical about my Church. If you knew anything about it, which you don't since you think JS worked in a cave, you would know that the sole focus of the Church is leading souls to Christ. Anyway, your opinion doesn't really matter, does it? - God is the only person I am obligated to please.

renny
you wrote:

"no ancient culture, which had no proscription based on religion against it, ever devised a spec. category of law for homosexuals: not ancient Egypt, not Greece (which had a thriving homosexual milieu), not Rome, not the Indus Vally, not China."

Not quite true. In Greek culture, and later other cultures influenced by Greece such as Rome, men would become "mentors" for one or more boys. This practice, called pederasty, involved a whole range of activities including tutoring, nude sports (gymnos - the root word for gymnasium), and homosexual sex. The Greeks admired the beauty of young boys much like the beauty of women is admired. Greek men would use the boys as a form of birth control - having sex with them instead of women until they were in their mid twenties. Then they would take a wife and raise a family.

At times the Greeks had heated debates over this practice, and some city-states even outlawed it. Others made it legal. Still others allowed the pracice only if it was "chaste" pederasty, involving educational and sports activities only.

Another thing, if you insist ...
Jake, when we insist on an inaccurate description of anything, believing it is true over time it begins to fall apart, no matter how many believe it. Truth is as God is no respecter of persons.

Your description of Mormons is quite flawed, but you are welcome to believe it. The anti-Mormon literature writers were more fiction writers whose hate and fear of losing grip over there flock produced some of the most ridicules claims. like Mormons had horns. They all had 7 to 10 wives. They were unchristian like, unpatriotic etc. I would challenge you to write 400 pages that included a history of three distinct nations, over 1000 years history, describing locations you had never seen, names and places you never knew of which have there roots from reformed Egyptian or Hebrew, and you had to do it in less than a year. Further more, you could not use any modern expressions or terms and the final book was comparable to the Bible, And you did not even have a first grad education. Your only learning was from the bible.

When you do this, then perhaps you won't want to claim anything you said above. I believe you are a very good person. Not perfect and I hope you will consider that only Christ shall be our judges. "If they are not against us they are for us." I believe in Jesus Christ, we are children of God if we do what so ever He commandeth. You are my brother and I hold you in deep respect as a child of God. Let us not give place for the Devil that Gods Spirit be not grieved.

Sincerely and respectfully best of wishes!

renny
FYI. Further reading indicates this was also a legal practice in China, Japan, India, and mezoamerica among the Maya and Aztecs. Look it up on Wikipedia...

Hmmm...
Many MFT's are Christian, work in Christian based services, like Churches and religious organizations, and incorporate religion into their counseling. Spirituality is apart of everyone, whether they believe in a specific religion or have their own relationship with their God. Therefore, counseling incorporates that in some way. Many people do go to pastors for counseling. Some times they need more than their faith and God to help them. Is that wrong? Have none of you ever gone to therapy? In my opinion, and no disrespect to anyone else, if God could help everyone simply through the Bible and his messengers, we would not need therapists. However, because people interpret messages differently, apply the teachings of God and the Bible differently, his Message gets misconstrued ALL the time. Some husbands interpret the Bible to say it is ok to abuse their wife, because women, after all, are formed from their rib, etc. and they have the right. I am pretty sure God did not say that or imply that, but because people often understand and relay information in the ways that make sense for them rather han how it was meant, we do have people misreading and understanding the Bible.

You cannot make a blanket statement that people should only learn marriage and the family from God or his messengers, like pastors, because there is a need for therapists. And from every encounter I have with any Pastor, they support our career, and often give referrals.

Former Grad
Well said. Pastors are not necesarily qualified or trained to be counselors. They may offer wise counsel, but there is a limit to their expertise in such matters.

I have been to counseling to help me deal with my childhood sexual abuse. You cannot just "pray away" all the damage that type of experience causes. You need professional help, and I'm grateful its out there.

Your point is well taken and valid
Former Grad writes:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 10:54 AM
Hmmm...
--
It is entirely correct that I have my discrepancies and I am ignorant Many ways, so I need to be humble.

Humility
Copyright©1987 PLH

Humility is the ability
To see ones folly
With an attitude
Of high self esteem

It's a hunger for growth
In search of truth.
To understand in meekness
One's purpose and worth

To serve with love humanity,
To sow good will on earth,
To trust in God in every deed;
This I hope will be my humble creed

Inspiration will not produce hate, discrimination or prejudice. The truth does not enslave, it makes us free as long as we live by it precepts. But if we are incapable of discerning the truth we need extra help.

Very true Former Grad.
Thanks for you forgiving nature. I made an assumption that was, as usual wrong in the beginning. I need to thank you for your maturity and understanding.


No Wally
No Wally I don't. I have studied my scriptures as well as Mormon theology. This nation provides for a free and open discussion of one's faith. You would do well to know what you believe and why. I happen to know.
I've started to address my suspicions about Mr. Adams piece at the coffeeshopprophet on Townhall Your Blogs if youre interested. Go to Ca., coffeeshoprophet, Faith and Family.
I'm new to blogging, I'll make the link easier as soon as I can. If you have a blog here Wally, I would like to get to know more about your views.

We are also taught by the Spirit
Have you every felt a message come to your heart and into you mind and to write is down. When you have completed that message and read its content, tears came to your eyes, because you were tuched so deeply.
---
As I gaze upon the morning calm,
And contemplate the forest lawn.
The due kissed tender blade and grass,
In little things I see and last.
The hand of love in all things,
In life, in stone, in heart of man,
God's unyielding loving hand....

Skipping two verses to the last verse

... And so I know without a doubt,
His hand is all and all about,
To lift us from this darkened land,
To learn to serve our fellow man.
Understanding multiplied,
In life, in stone, in life of man,
God's unyielding loving hand.
---
It is the spirit of God that gives the increase when we desire and learn to understand that we are here to serve and not to condemn, to forgive and not to judge, to teach the truth in deed more that in word, to have charity toward all people.

Courts that go to far
I'm convinced that one day , a court is going to go TOO far and the American People rebel and compell Congress to use their power to restrain what the Court can do.

This clause from the Constituion has yet to be used (The Exceptions clause):

Article III Section 2:
In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make

coffeeshopprophet Feeling suspicious:
That is real cute

Suspicion as based on what we think we know. I feel that you for example have a prejudice against the Mormon faith based on here say and ignorance. If I cannot discern what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is corrupt concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, I am the blind leading the blind.

Your fear of Mitt Romney? Has he ever bitten you? Has he ever cheated you or done anything to hurt you? If he has your fear is rational, other wise you need some council yourself. I do not say that you do not have a valid point, however you have failed to present any more than an opinion--a suspicion.

Why do 80% of the attacks form candidate sources hit on Mr. Mitt Romney? Because they recognize that he is better prepared and a more capable leader and hopping some will stick. He is principled, honest, moral, organized and disciplined and the only one outside capable of turning around Washington. That is only the beginning. Wait till you hear the rest of the story. It will be played out before you eyes and if you are wise you will have a change of heart. If faith does not lead you then you cannot please God, as it is written. My God bless us all to understand.

Former Grad I believe you have a lot of work cut out for you, we all need to learn to be more objective and not to be lead by silly feelings that are without grounds.

hmm
jake i am not sure if i beleve that site you linked to at all. first of all i am not really sure when momonism was fromed but i dont think people even knew at the time that there were other worlds other than our own.

We are al gullible one way or other
slummer writes:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 12:14 PM
musing

Where conflictive values inflict a society there is reason to be concerned, in particular when these hide in academic institutions or fined a way to intimidate you, to abuse your rights or fabricating something that they are able to use against you, then there is a concern.

These are friends who need help themselves and they want to model society after their barnyard values though the politics of their minority status and forcing that on conscientious objecting persons which is a criminal offense.

Corruption creeps in because good persons fail to do anything. So, decide which side you are on, because it is not good to sit on the fence.

jake
also jesus never taught us to hate anyone he tought us to always love so i in fact challenge your assurtion that you are christian since you obviously hate mormons.

Slummer and Chr3354
I do have my work cut out for don't I?! It is obvious by some of these postings. I agree with you Slummer, about the goal of therapy. I would never apply spirituality to therapy if someone does not believe in it or want it there. I meet my clients where they are, and help them achieve their goals and hopefully that will lead to personal growth. We all need to meet each other where we are, I will never be able to help someone if I do not know their values, background, worldview, etc. I cannot help them change according to my experience, that is not what therapy is about. I try to remain as objective as I can, and hope I am doing the same in my postings on here. You are all entitled to your beliefs, and I am to mine. I will only comment when I think those beliefs may be assumptions that are not informed, and I hope you do the same for me. That is the only way to engage in respectful discourse, isn't it?

Former Grad
You say it is important to understand the ethics of doing therapy.

"It is not that any of us had to adhere to the beliefs of our professors, but that the values we adhere to not be pushed on anyone we see."

Don't you think that this would be a good lesson for the professors to learn before they attempted to teach it? It seems to me that interacting with their students would present the perfect opportunity to DEMONSTRATE through their own actions and words the concept you are talking about, and it also seems perfectly clear that they don't come anywhere near meeting that standard.


You go on to make this statement:
"When people are actively diseminating information that directly outlines their beliefs, when it does go against the philosophy of the program and the people who are students in it, as well as the people the program serves, there will be some sort of a consequence to that."

I think this statement makes it clear that there IS a required set of PC values that ARE being pushed on students. You seem to have validated the problem Mike Adams is pointing out, and the herd mentality required by the program.

What is a Christian?
Jake writes: Saturday, September, 01, 2007 12:17 PM
Mormons unite

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Chris"tian\, n. [L. christianus, Gr. ?; cf. AS.
cristen. See {Christ}.]
1. One who believes, or professes or is assumed to believe, in Jesus Christ, and the truth as taught by Him; especially, one whose inward and outward life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ.

The disciples were called Christians first in ntioch. --Acts xi. 26.

Who are Christians, anyone who believes in Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, and of them that believe. Further more the demonstrate their belief because of their charity toward all people. What I condemn in another I only condemn myself, and you are treading on faulty grounds when you ignore or do not live up to the teachings of Christ. I will not condemn you or blame you because of your prejudiced indoctrination, but I can forgive and understand that is where you are at this moment. I only ask you to realize that we are all are to be judged and not to condemn anyone. We are taught by Christ to love even our enemies. They way I measure the worth of friends is by the way they treat their worst enemy. It they treat their enemy with dignity, in the spirit of compassion and good will I consider myself in good company, for so also did Christ. I sincerely hope you will bear with me, and understand I respect you without measure, but do not share your narrow unchristian like view. He that exalteth himself shall be abased and he that humble himself shall be exalted.. I pray with all my heart that you understand how sad it makes me feel that one soul be lost, and cannot feel in in my heart to be a judge

Sloopy
My experience with the professors was that they did not push their beliefs on anyone. Jeff's is different. I cannot speak to that for him. Of course they should adhere to that concept, and in my experience with them, they did. Most of the people I talk to, including other LDS students, did not have the same experience as Jeff. That is not saying that he is wrong and the professors are right, because if he was treated this way, then I would stand behind Jeff full heartedly. And I think he knows that.

But, what that does mean is that:

There are multiple sides of this story.

This story is being presented in a certain way by this columnist. (I am not saying anything bad about the columnist, but I do think journalism should include multiple sides to the story).

People's reactions to this article and case are stemming from their beliefs (some may be assumptions, others may be informed) due to their worldview and experience.

My experience in the program has been completely different than Jeff's, and my posts are reflecting that.

The PC I expereinced at PUC was along the lines of "Thou shall respect each other." In this case, it seems that both sides were not respecting each other and it is hard to discern which one occurred first because it is only one side.


Spiceman & KJV Only
Spiceman you need to read the Mat 7:1-5 to complete the context.Matthew 7:1-5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
In other words study, don't cherry pick and provide your own interpretation. That Spiceman, is new age theology. Do you believe as Mormon theology teaches, that you can become a god?
BTW, the scripture quotes are from BibleGateway.com.



Coffeshopprophet
"This nation provides for a free and open discussion of one's faith. You would do well to know what you believe and why"

You are welcome to express your opinions and you are welcome to believe whatever you wish to believe. However, that doesn't mean that what you believe is true or that you have some special appointment from God to judge who is a Christian and who is not. In fact, I think that the admonition was "Judge not, that ye be not judged..."

I work for a corporation who's CEO is LDS (Mormon)and for whom I have tremendous respect. I am privleged to work closely with several Mormons and with many other fine Christians as well. If "By their fruits ye shall know them" is a good measure, My Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, Baptist and Mormon friends are doing just fine thank you!

If Mitt is as good a guy as my boss, I would vote for him with great pleasure.


Let's take a breath
First I think we need to define our debates.
I don't hate Mormons or anyone else. My concern is for their eternal condition.
My opinions are based on what the Bible teaches. It has a textual and theological history and has been scrutinized more than any other book in history.
Mormonism has the same background, plus it doesn't come from antquity. There are actually original source documents in archives extant. Joseph Smith and the other Mormon prophets taught certain things and they were recorded. The Book of Mormon, The Pearl if Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants etc. lay out Mormon theology. If they were and are prophets in the Old Testament sense, then that is how I'll make a judgement call on what they teach.

Jake
I think you have been sold a "bill of goods".

"It wasn't what I knowed that done me up, it was what I knowed that WASN'T SO..."
Mark Twain

Correction!
"It wasn't what I DIDN'T KNOW that done me up..."

(hate it when I see the error just after i hit the button)

It was irrelevant to say more
coffeeshopprophet writes:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 1:59 PM
Spiceman & KJV Only

I cannot say that a person is a hypocrite, if I do not know that. They may only misunderstand. So that does not mean they are a hypocrite and so, it was not irrelevant to quote more. Thanks anyway for your help. Much appreciated.hopprophet writes: Saturday, September, 01, 2007 1:59 PM
Spiceman & KJV Only

My Handle
P.S. There was a question about my being a 'prophet'. In a sense yes I am, but not as the Mormons hold it. The term prophet has several meanings. One is to fore tell the future, which I cannot nor claim to do(New Revelation.) However one of the other meanings is to forth tell or proclaim what has already been told, to preach the Gospel of Christ as it has been set forth in the Bible. That I do. And based on the teachings of Smith and other Mormon prophets, the Gospel of the Bible is different from the Mormon gospel.

Wally
I know what you mean about the buttons! I think it's a Roosian conspeeracy.

Coffeeshopprophet
" However one of the other meanings is to forth tell or proclaim what has already been told, to preach the Gospel of Christ as it has been set forth in the Bible."

Don't know where you got that definition from, but no matter. Either you have authority from God to speak for Him or you do not.

I would just say that as far as I know, "Christians" are people who believe in and try to follow Jesus Christ. I personally don't know of anyone other than Jesus Christ, who has the authority to judge who HE accepts as being "Christian" but I would be very surprised if it followed strict sectarian lines.

Your reference to Matthew 7:1-5 is appropriate. I certainly don't think that I am qualified to judge who is, or who is not a Christian (of those who claim to be Christians)or who is or is not righteous, by God's definition. Are you qualified to make that judgement? Are ALL Jews, Moslems, Buddhists etc. condemned, even those who have never had the oppurtunity to accept Jesus Christ?

I don't believe that God is capricious!

Finding fault like gossip only hurts mw
coffeeshopprophet wrotete:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 2:28 PM
My Handle
--
If you have the truth you don't have to go around trying to prove another wrong.

Did Christ go around trying to prove that others who claimed to believe in him, who were casting out devils were at fault?

(New Testament | Mark 9:38 - 40)
38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Is not one of the signs of a disciple to love one another. You do not seem to understand this and look beyond the mark like the Jews did, that failed to accept Christ. So Don't go about looking for issuers, because in your eye could be a mote.

Proving someone wrong does no prove me right, only donning the right are we justified. So should we not do likewise. If you want to continue attempting to prove a church wrong, it does not prove that you are right anyway. The truth is, when we condemn others we are only condemning ourselves. The sprit of God does not work in this manner, a spirit of contention, controversy and ill feelings built up only to divide. There is no profit nor would a true prophet, they are teachers of righteousness and not spoilers of the flock.

You bring a fine spirit to a discussion
wally writes:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 3:17 PM
Coffeeshopprophet

I am so very rewarded with your balanced contribution. I feel that you have very good judgment and do encourage others, You are a very positive influence here.

Thank you.

In Greece
there was no homosexual marriage.

There was some idealized man-boy relationship that Plato claimed was, well, Platonic. Plato, himself, never married anyone, altho' The Republic says all men should be forced to marry. Young boys of the gymnasiums were often called Aphrodites, so their roles were pretty delineated. But they didn't get off. married by the state.

Yhere were no spec. laws, no spec. social place, the poetry and plays are full of satirical references to homosexuality. It was called the third sex (for men and women). We get pornography from the houses of the flute girls, who were the Badda Bing babes of their times. So, what we would call bi-sexuality was a cultural phenom, because women were usually kept away in women's rooms (gynosiums) and men socialized with other men or women for hire. (Athens)

Of Rome, Caesar was mockingly called the best husband to any woman and best wife to any man. But the Romans did not have homosexual marriage or spec. laws for them.

Is my point clear enough?

Wally, Spiceman
Thanks guys, and all who take the time to be engaged in the cultural debates. Wally, to properly address the issue of other belief systems requires far more study and discourse then this venue allows. This comments section allows little more than a 'sound bite' format. I am more than willing to lay out my case for Christianity, but it will take far more space than this venue allows. That's why I started my own blog at Your Blogs. The issue at stake here is eternity. In John 14:6, Jesus states He is the only way to eternal salvation. He didn't leave any room for other 'ways.' The question then is, is He or isn't He the only way?

Spiceman Mark 9
Again you've missed the context. John was pointing out that the man was not one of the Apostles, or Jesus immediate group of deciples.
Read Mathew 7:21-23.
Remember to use 'the whole council of God.'

Coffeeshop prophet
"He is the only way to eternal salvation....' The question then is, is He or isn't He the only way?"

I don't think that is the question at all. Every Christian I know, INCLUDING every Mormon Christian I know, believes that Jesus Christ is "The Way" and the only name given under heaven whereby man can be saved.

I know you think that you are doing the world a service, maybe you are, and then again, maybe not. I understand that you are happy to lay out your case for Christianity AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT. The question then is: Do you speak for God? Do you presume to be the judge of your fellow Christians? Or is it just possible that you are being "judgemental" as we are all inclined to be at times?

Jake
There is a big difference between differing on points of doctrine and judging another person. ("For with what judgement you judge, so shall ye be judged")That is very clear. Only Jesus Christ has the right to judge our character.

Jesus taught: "Love thy neighbor as thyself". Or, was it "Judge thy neighbor according to thy limited understanding".

I read through the references above. Its no wonder you are confused. I'm sure your intentions are good but your information base is something less than perfect. There is good reason for the fact that their are hundreds of churches with differing opinions all pointing to the same scriptures as their authority. All pick out the scriptures that they think supports their position and ignore the scriptures that support the other persons position.

Maybe you are different, maybe you are the one called to the special specific office of Prophet, God's "mouthpiece on Earth", maybe you would be so kind as to write some revelations for us.

As for me, I will just try to love my neighbor and follow the example of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ according to my limited ability and understanding and pray for forgivness for my many sins and shortcommings, trusting in His mercy and perfect judgement.

I wish you well! I will pray that God grants us both wisdom, understanding and charity, the "pure love of Christ".

The Counselor-Trainee
Is this the same case that was discussed last week in a townhall article? The subject was a student in a Master's-level counseling program? If so, it would be absolutely inappropriate for the trainee to make inflammatory public statements in the newspaper mentioning his placement, and equally inappropriate for him to try to influence a client's decisions or behavior, based on his own personal beliefs. The task of a counselor is not to tell the client what to do---it is to clear a space around the client so that client can figure out, himself, what to do. Part of the trainee's task is to learn neutrality.

If a trainee violates this basic expectation, then the order in which things would happen would be the following: 1) The trainee first should use good judgment and not proselytize. 2) If he does so anyway, his field placement supervisor should speak with him and clarify professional expectations (which in any case would have been made crystal clear in classes, seminars, and group and individual supervision sessions). 3) If that doesn't work, both his field placement supervisor and his university placement supervisor should meet with him together and put the fear of God into him with a warning that his internship will be terminated if he persists. 4) If he persists, his internship should be terminated. Period.

Trainee counselors and psychotherapists are not in placement so that they may act as ministers of the Gospel or politicians or issue journalists. They are there to learn how to be clinicians. Where personal issues interfere with this learning, case supervision and often a referral to personal psychotherapy should be pursued. Clients seeking help have a right to a helper who doesn't impose his own agenda on them.

Lilly,
You are making a lot of assumptions as to what the student did and said, we havn't even seen the article he wrote.

Does thinking make is so?
Jake wrote:
Sunday, September, 02, 2007 8:33 AM
Anyone

"Is welcome to address a specific Mormon doctrine or scripture and I or anyone reading this who is Christian can easily show how they are a cult.

But, apparently, nobody wants to address the specifics, mostly people here defending that cult want to change the topic."

--
Jake, with all due respect, if I were to define your position, I would say, by Jakes fruits He is known. I do not label someone any more than Christ did. By our fruits we are known.

We cannot decide that someone does not believe in Christ, by the color of their skin, or their economic status or their religion. You and I have not the power to judge. I respect you, not your narrow point of view that borders on bigotry discrimination and harassment. But that is OK. You take your stand and you define in your own mind what a cult is, just as Homosexuals have defined theirs and published that line. But changing the original definition is fraudulent.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Cult\ (kalt) n .[F. culte, L. cultus care,
culture, fr.
colere to cultivate. Cf. {Cultus}.]

1. Attentive care; homage; worship.
Every one is convinced of the reality of a better self, and of. the cult or homage which is due to it. --haftesbury.

2. A system of religious belief and worship. That which was the religion of Moses is the ceremonial or cult of the religion of Christ. --Coleridge.

Most conflicts exist for lack of understanding what the real fact are. Respectfully

I Hope Ths Helps!
lilly writes:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 11:51 PM
The Counselor-Trainee

1) The alumni did not prostate
2) NA see 1)
3) NA see 1)
4) NA see 1)

From Part I
"The teenager felt attracted to other men and wanted help so he could overcome those desires. After talking with the teen, Mr. West mentioned the situation to his supervisor, Professor Hecker. Mr. West had never discussed this type of situation in any of his classes so he wanted guidance..."

"...The next week, Professor Hecker informed Mr. West that he could no longer help the teen who wanted to overcome his attraction to other men. Instead, she said that he had to help the client embrace the desires he was trying to extinguish. Mr. West was confused because this was the opposite of what the client came to LDS Family Services to receive. But she was insistent."

Mr. West then asked the learned professor whether therapists are ethically bound to help a client reach his goals rather than to advance the therapist’s political agenda."
From part I

I have not sent these prophets
coffeeshopprophet wrote:
Saturday, September, 01, 2007 6:39 PM
Spiceman Mark 9
Again you've missed the context. John was pointing out that the man was not one of the Apostles, or Jesus immediate group of deciples.
Read Mathew 7:21-23.
Remember to use 'the whole council of God.'

Your Ref: is not relevant to the following in Mark 9.

‘Spiceman writes: Saturday, September, 01, 2007 3:29 PM
Finding fault like gossip only hurts me

"...Did Christ go around trying to prove that others who claimed to believe in him, who were casting out devils were at fault?

(New Testament | Mark 9:38 - 40)
38 ¶ ‘And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.’

“Is not one of the signs of a disciple to love one another? You do not seem to understand this and look beyond the mark like the Jews did, that failed to accept Christ. So Don't go about looking for issuers, because in your eye could be a mote..." ‘

It is clear to me you don't understand, and need a new monitor, because in no way could the human mind see a connection to your point and my comment above, which is partially quoted here.

(Old Testament | Jeremiah 23:21)
21 "I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied."


Touj
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I haven't spoken to homosexuality on this thread, perhaps you're referencing another article.
The Indians called them 'contraries.' That is a very loosely translated term because of the vagaries involved in the different languages.

Jake
If I misquoted scripture, I apologise, I am doing it from memory. Please tell me where I changed the meaning.

Matt. 7:1 I said "so" instead of "Ye". That changed the meaning, HOW? Also please take a look at Rom. 13:9 and Rom. 2:1. You could set me straight on those while you're at it: "For wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;". You might also like to look at 1 COR.13:1-2 remembering that the word charity as used here might be more correctly translated as "pure love" as in "the pure love of Christ".

I didn't come to this thread to "bible bash" or be an apologist for any particular church. The truth, like cream, has a way of rising to the top. "for a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bringeth forth good fruit. for every tree is known by his own fruit..." Luke 6:43-44.

I will leave it to Mormon scriptorians to defend their own religion, it they choose to do so. I would just note that the author of the so-called "Doctrine Grid" states " I admit that some of these are debatable and I do not claim absolute correctness on all points". I will go one step further and state catagorically that he is incorrect on some of them and in at least one instance, his point is incorrect to begin with.

Don't put too much faith in Bible "commentaries". Study the scriptures prayerfully and get your "commentary" from The Spirit.


Wally, ...the only way....
That is exactly the question. You asked if other beliefes were excluded by Jesus. It has nothing to do with my opinion. John 14:6, NKJV: (Jesus)said to him (Thomas), "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." So no matter how you cut it, Jesus is the standard. It doesn't matter what you believe, it depends on Jesus. I depend on Him being what He says He is in John 14:6. All others depend on Him 'not' being what He says is, either way it still depends on Jesus.
Keep in mind that there were two Roman Emperors who had the entire Roman Empire at that time to back up their claim to deity. Most people aren't even aware of who they are. Jesus however si always confronting us. If you've read the above scripture quote, I've just prophesied to you in the name of Jesus. I doubt that you will ever be able to get around that statement again. Ignore it, deny it, accept it, we all have to contend with it. They are Jesus' words, so here we are right back to Jesus.

Jake
I'm more than interested in discussing Mormon doctrines. Richard Abones wrote, One Nation Under Gods, published in 2003. If you GOOGLE his name you should get some excerpts from it. I've had several other books detailing Mormon theology, one of them from 1910.
However, I'm more interested in our friends eternal condition than in doctrinal debates.
I'd like to hear what others have to say, and hear what their sources are.

Sorry Wally
Those buttons again, ....is always... not si always...

Coffeeshopprophet
You quoted "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Every Christian I know accepts that! What's your point? If it is, as you stated: " It doesn't matter what you believe, it depends on Jesus."

You sort of shot down your own argument, didn't you?

As a Christian, you surely believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and that his willingness to take upon himself the sins of the world was an act of love beyond our understanding. Then, would you accept the idea that He is in any way unfeeling or unjust?

What of all the millions of people who lived and died before Jesus' birth? What of the millions who lived and died after, but never heard, or had any chance to accept his gospel? What of the millions of Muslims who are prevented from hearing His gospel? What of the honest, devout "observant Jews", JWs, Mormons, Catholics etc. who are doing the best that they know. Are they condemned whereas the "born again Christian" is saved even if he commits a great sin that the others didn't commit?

Inasmuch as God knows where and under what conditions we will be born, raised and taught, Is God capricious? OR has He provided a way for His mercy to be effectual?

Are Therapists Needed
Earlier in the thread, Grad offered that therapists are needed and asked if anyone has used these services.

Personally, I've had experiences with five different family therapists over the years. One was excellent; one was good; one was bad; one was terrible; and one was dangerous. Each of these therapists brought their own viewpoints into our sessions. There was no formulaic approach to the counseling from anything I could discern. The best I can say about therapists is they listen and can prevent argument - although the dangerous one caused arguments.

I've had better luck with counseling from family and friends than anything I ever got out of a therapist. I suspect that many, if not most, people go to therapists looking for validation and little else. This is good because they probably won't get much more than that.

While I feel badly for the Mormon student in this saga, I think he is making a big career mistake so maybe being drummed out of the "business" isn't so terrible? Do we need any more therapists?

Jake
"Nobody has an excuse. (Romans 1:20)"

Pretty close but not really complete unless you go back to at least Romans 1:16 and read on to get the context. Indeed everyone is born with "The Light of Christ" or conscience.

"Anybody who TRULY lives a life (tries to do what is right) of righteousness will find God. (1Peter 3:11, Proverbs 12:28)"

VERY important point! You're getting close!

"(Notice, I'm not saying be saved, but find God." If they "find God, but are not saved" what did it do for them? What is your defination of being "saved"? Aren't you awfully "lucky" that you were not born in Tibet or India 200 years ago?

"I am not saying "be good" or "sinless",

Well, NO one is sinless (except little children not yet capable of sinning) and "good" is a matter of degree.

"Nothing you do gets you into heaven.

Certainly not without the atonement and grace of Jesus Christ but does that mean that our actions, our attempts to follow Him being "doers of the word" and not "hearers" only are meaningless? Were Paul's admonishions to the "saints" Ephesians, Corrinthians and Galations just an exercise? Did it matter if anyone heeded his advice? Is a "saved person" who then commits serious sin and refuses to repent in the same situation as one who follows Christ's commandments to the best of his ability right to the end? I don't buy that idea!

"We are born going to hell."

I won't buy that idea at all! Little children come to mind as the most obvious example.

I don't think that being "saved" consists of just saying some magic words. Christ's atonement was infinite, giving Him the right to forgive whomever He pleases. It doesn't give us the right to demand it unconditionally.






Spiceman, Monitor
Good morning all.
Your use of the word monitor sounds very much like you're a Scientologist.?
Here's why my Mathew 7:21-23 verse is relevent to your Mark 9 quote. The context of this debate is whether Mormonism is Biblically Christian. In using Mark 9, you are claiming that the man whom the deciples rebuked represents Mormonism, and therefore Mormons are deciples of Christ. My response with Mathew 7:21-23, Jesus Himself says that just because one uses His name doesn't make that person a deciple.
The scriptures have references to others who either tried to use His name, or wanted to buy the power of the Holy Spirit, ( The seven sons of Sceva Acts 19:14, and Simon the magician Acts 8:9-24.)
If you're changing the context away from discussing Mormonism, then we need to choose another venue.
I would suggest reading Mark 8,9 and 10 for a better grasp of the events that shaped Jesus response. Remember the chapter and verse references were added by translators, and are not in the original languages, also a good concordance like Strongs is esential.

Wally
As I read through to the end of Mark 9, I think the answer to part of your question is there.
First let me say that I don't doubt your sincerity, but in Mark 8:31-33, Jesus rebukes Peter for wnating to defend Him,(...get thee behind Me Satan....) Peter's intentions were good, but they would have interfered with God's plan of redmption. After I first came to Christ, I held many of the views you and Spiceman hold,'stuying to show myself approved' has caused me to put asside many of those misguided notions.
You seem to think that all God is, is love. God is also Holy,Just, vengeful, jealous, a consuming fire, merciful, long suffering etc...... I'll start another post on Jesus alone; just a brief outline then I need to go.

Jesus attributes
I noticed a misspelled word above, "studying". My fault , not the buttons.
First, Jesus is the creator God in Genesis, see John 1.
Second He is the God of the Old & New Testament. Referencing:(OT) I AM; Ex. 3:14.(NT) John 8:48-59.
Bottom Line: Jesus is the creator, Messiah, Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, Lamb of God, Risen Christ, High Priest( offered His blood on the altar in heaven.) Now He is seated at the right hand of the Fahter as mediator between God and man, He will call His bride to Him(rapture.), When He returns He will be the Lion of Juda and blood will flow to the depth of a horeses bridle in the valley of Miggido. He will call the birds to feast on the flesh of those who rejected His authority. He will rule with a rod of iron etc.......
That's just part of how the Bible describes Him. His task as sacrificial lamb is complete, we are basking in the after glow of that event if you will. I'll address the issues of other of God's attributes on my blog as time permits. There are some good commentaries by Spurgen and others. Don't get the wrong Jesus, it could be an eternal mistake.

P.S.
One needs to come to a decision about the authority of the Bible. The mistake I made was to pick and choose what I wanted, while rejecting what I didn't like. A good site that might be of interest is STR.org. Jesus used many 'hard sayings' to weed out those who followed along as long as it was convenient for them.

Coffeeshopprophet
" Jesus Himself says that just because one uses His name doesn't make that person a deciple."

"The context of this debate is whether Mormonism is Biblically Christian."

NO ITS NOT.

Whatever denomination you claim belong to, it was not in existance at the time the Bible was written or compiled. Obviously, the word Mormon was also not used either.

It seems to me to be like a couple of six year old children arguing over which one mom loves.

The context of this debate is whether or not Christ has any say in the matter.

I suggest that it might be good to show a little humility and ask HIM!

Coffeeshopprophet
"'stuying to show myself approved' has caused me to put asside many of those misguided notions."

That's nice, but study in and of itself is not enough. Look at Hebrews 5:8&9 and also James 1:22&23.

Christ is all of the things you listed and in addition, as the only perfect person who ever lived, is also the perfect example of how we should live. How is that? See Peter 3:11-14

Wally
Which one, 1st or 2nd Peter?
Are you saying that Jesus isn't condeming souls to hell in Mark 9:42-48.
You still haven't answered the question about the authority of the Bible.

And yes it is about how Mormon theology compares to nearly 2000 years of Orthodox Christian doctrine. Christ came 2000 years ago. Joseph Smith founded the Mormon religion in the 1830s.

I agree with you about Jesus being our example, but again you left out the most crucial part, He is God, and if passages such as John 14:6 and Mark 9:42-50 are accurate, we don't love anyone by allowing them to think that there are more ways to eternal life then through Christ. As a Holy and Righteous God He must judge (condemn) those who reject His authority.

Salvation through faith in what Jesus did on the cross, His burial, and resurrection is the Gospel Paul preached in 1Cor15. From the Biblical point of view, that excludes everything else. If you insist on taking verses out of context to make them fit your view of Jesus, then you're on your own.

Finally, the debate is about how Mormon theology historically measures up to 2000 years of Christian doctrine. Mr. Adams and Hugh Hewitt indentified their subjects as Mormons. Mormonism is a theology and has a founder and history. Joseph Smith and the other Mormon prophets taught specific doctrines, they were recorded and we can compare them to other views including the Bible. Niether you nor I have the right to change what those men said. Any theology stands or fails on its doctrines. The Jesus revealed through Mormon prophecy is distinctly different from the Bible. Either that, or those Mormon prophets were wrong.

P.S.
I still stand on my view that Mr. Adams is writng a Mormon apologetics piece. He may be doing it unawares.

As far as the discrimination that Mr. Ford is facing, his being a Mormon isn't relavent. He has the right to express his views and carey his theological views into his practice. The pro-homosexual professors are carrying their particular theology into their positions and are trying to silence those who oppose them, including Mr. Ford's views. They either need to be removed or made to show how Mr. Ford's performance disqualifies him.

We shouldn't be supprised that these extreme biasis' exist and that those who hold them will try to silence those who disagree with them. It has taken over 30 years to get where they are. Now however the truth is starting to emerge; homosexuality is a gender identity problem, the gay rights movement is a political agenda that has little interest in resolving the homosexual's gender identity issues. If, as Mr.Ford, Love Won Out(Focus on the Family), and other programs that show that people can leave the same sex life style become the avenue of choice, then the 'gay' political agenda goes back to square one, and they lose 30 years of work. It doesn't supprise me in the least that they would use every tactic they could to silence and intimidate the Mr. Fords that confront them with the truth of their life style.

Confused
Wally, I just read what you said to Jake. You were right on target. I haven't been paying much attention to what he's been saying, but something doesn't make sense in what he told you.
One of the scriptures used to refute being born going to hell is 2 Samuel 22-23. David and Bathsheba's first son was born alive, but God took him to heaven. David said he ' shall' go to his son, but that the child couldn't return. Their first child was the one born from their adultry and David's murder of Uriah. Jake may be citing Roman Catholic tradition. I just don't really know enough about his theology.
Just to be clear on my view of who gets to heaven. Heaven isn't full of good people, it's filled with people who've ackowledged that they are sinners, and have recieved Christ's offer to pay for their sins, rejecting all other means of trying to satisfy their debt owed to God.

Side Tracked
I came back here to see what worthwhile comments may have been added as we wait for the inevitable end to this series. Former Grad is spot on as usual and Jake, missing the point of the article completely has tried to turn this into a religious debate. Mormons this and Mormons that...nice try. To debate Mormonism on a Mike Adams article, go back to his several part series from last year (some of the lowest rated by the way) and try your luck there. Mormons aren't debating you, Jake, because this series isn't about religion, it is about character and Mike has managed to separate his distaste for the religion from his admiration for their tenacity. You might want to try looking at the "fruits" of Mormons instead of straining at gnats all day and night long. Regardless, I hope Mike puts this series to a merciful end tomorrow.

Coffeeshopprophet
Your P.S. is right on target.

"we don't love anyone by allowing them to think that there are more ways to eternal life then through Christ"

And your point would be what? It is clear that we are saved through grace no matter how hard we might try to follow Christ's example as I have stated previously.

Is Christ God? Certainly is! Moreover, He was the Jehovah of the Old Testament before he was born in the flesh. The Father AND the Son AND The Holy Ghost constitute ONE GOD.

NOW! Explain for me, if you can, the vision of St. Stephen before his death.

You didn't answer my questions but 1 Cor 15 is the perfect chapter to refute your argument! Look at verses 34 & 58 but also 40-42 and 22 and 29.

I don't think you realize that Savior and Redeemer do not mean the same thing. Christ redeemed us from the "fall of Adam" when he overcame death and ALL will be resurected without exception. By taking upon himself the sins of the world He became our Savior. We are now His and responsible to Him. He will save whom he will. It behooves us then to follow His commandments doesn't it?

"Which one, 1st or 2nd Peter?" 2nd Peter (sorry)
"Are you saying that Jesus isn't condeming souls to hell in Mark 9:42-48." no
"You still haven't answered the question about the authority of the Bible." Which version, in which language and whose interpretation? or if you mean authority bestowed on men by the Bible, the ability to read is not the same thing as being "called of God".



Coffeeshopprophet
"Finally, the! debate is about how Mormon theology historically measures up to 2000 years of Christian doctrine."

LOL

Which one? There are HUNDREDS of iterations following the predicted "falling away" (which occurred prior to Constatine). Mormons believe that The Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter Day Saints) is the RESTORATION of the ORIGINAL by proper authority.

Jake, the arbiter
Personally,
Discuss what you will where you will because you, and anyone else, can discuss any topic, relevant or not, to the thread. The concept of freedom of speech and site rules etc being what they are. It makes for interesting reading, just way off topic.

Jake,
You'll have to do better than that to upset me, like come up with a correct interpretation of a scripture, or refer to someone else’s comments in context. I don't think I could stand the shock and awe. Poor me. Next you’ll tell me to go mix up a batch of Kool-Aid. Sorry if I hurt YOUR feelings. Plus you call me a blow hard. Boo hoo, now I’m really hurt. I thought only Liberals and Leftists resorted to name calling. It appears that CHRISTIANS of your ilk are no different than the those whom you would attempt to eviscerate. Like I said, earlier, "by their fruits ye shall know them" and you, Jake, are known.

Jake, I know both an LDS psychiatrists
Years ago, there was this man, who with his small band of loyal followers, went around preaching doctrines that were not acceptable to the religious leaders of his area, and was considered by some to be a dangerous heretic. Clearly, he was, by definition, the leader of a "cult". We know him today as Jesus of Nazareth and I am not ashamed to follow Him!

Jake
I stand corrected Jake, on your view. Pehaps 'Born with a sin nature, or a nature corrupted by sin that assures we will fall short of God's standards', might be a better choice of words. If free will is indeed a fact, then a pre-born child or an infant could not make a free will choice.

Wally
I'll respond to you in a little while. I have some research to do.

Wally
I've read the posts on the last two aricles. In general I agree with what you and other concervatives said. So what I'm going to say is in regards to Biblical interpretation only.
Nehemiah chapter 8 is a good example. Basically we see what is called hermeneutics. There are two basic ways to take the Bible. Exegesis is lifting out what the text is saying; isogesis is reading into the scripture what you want it to say. You seem to think that Upanishad(Hindu teachings),Tripitaka(Buddist teachings), Koranic(Islamic teachings),Mormonism ( The teachings of Smith, Snow, Cowdrey etc.) all teach the same message of salvation, when they don't.
To exegete the Bible, all factors such as languge, culture, economics, politics etc. have to be taken into account. The writings of the other faiths contradict what the Bible says.
I've included three sites that have resources that can give you a basic grasp of hermeneutics.
CARM.ogr, STR.org, CRI.org. CARm is linked to the STR site. Throwing verses around without a hermeneutical understanding of them just turns ant discussion into a Biblical Keno game. Jesus warned of false beliefs calling on his name. Take the warning seriously and study what it actually says, not what you want it to. If you're claiming that those who follow after Buddha, are Hindus, Mohammedans, Mormons etc. are going to spend eternity with Christ, without knowing what your faith and theirs is based on, then you're teaching the wrong Jesus; you may well have the wrong Jesus as well.
I hope you take time to look at the sites.
Mikes articles are a Mormon apologetics piece, whether he intended it o be or not.
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