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Thursday, August 30, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Of Mice and Mormons, Part IV
by Mike Adams
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On July 9, 2004, Professor Wetchler sent an e-mail to Mr. Ford to cancel their meeting (see Parts I , II, and III of this series for background information).

He stated that the faculty wanted to discuss Mr. Ford’s thesis proposal as a team before moving forward. In the meantime, Mr. Ford had talked to Dr. Byrd and decided to select a different thesis topic in the hopes that he could curb the anger of his professors.

On July 10, 2004, Mr. Ford met with Professor Wetchler to explain that he would choose another topic for his thesis. Wetchler encouraged Mr. Ford to consider two topics: (1) the relationship between differentiation and religiosity; and (2) the relationship between identity foreclosure and intolerance.

For the first topic, Professor Wetchler explained that he thought high religiosity corresponded with low differentiation, and vice versa. “Differentiation” is a psychological scale that measures emotional development. People with low differentiation scores tend to be anxious and more wrapped up in their emotions, less emotionally balanced, and less developed emotionally. Those with high differentiation scores tend to have more balance between thought and emotion, are less controlled by their emotions, and more developed emotionally.

Professor Wetchler had concluded that very religious people are less developed emotionally and more unbalanced than their secular counterparts.

For the second topic, Professor Wetchler explained that he thought high identity foreclosure corresponded with high levels of intolerance, and vice versa. “Identity foreclosure” is a psychological term measuring the relationship between a person’s beliefs and the views of his family on matters of religion, politics, and social values. People with high “identity foreclosure” scores tend to accept blindly the views that come from their family upbringing.

Professor Wetchler had concluded that religious people are more intolerant and that intolerant people are more religious than their counterparts.

On July 7, 2004, the LDS Church issued a press release indicating that it “favors a constitutional amendment preserving marriage as the lawful union of a man and a woman.” About a month later, a friend asked Mr. Ford to write a letter to the editor of The Times, a local paper, on the subject of “same-sex marriage.” Mr. Ford chose to exercise his First Amendment freedoms by writing a letter tracing the decline of marriage in nations that have accepted “same sex marriage.”

On August 8, 2004, Mr. Ford met with Professor Hecker and an intern for a thirty to forty-five minute meeting to discuss a very difficult incest case. During this meeting, the clients were in the waiting room awaiting their therapy session. As Professor Hecker was the professor and the approved certified instructor, both Purdue University standards and the ethics code of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists required her to work with Mr. Ford and to supervise his session with the clients. During the meeting, Professor Hecker abruptly announced to the intern and Mr. Ford that she could no longer work with Mr. Ford ethically. At this point, she was shaking with anger.

Mr. Ford was concerned with his professor’s outward display of anger. He asked if it would be possible to discuss the matter privately. Although the clients were in the waiting room at the time, she just walked out of the room saying that she did not even want to remain near Mr. Ford.

After the session was over, Mr. Ford approached Professor Hecker in an honest attempt to resolve the sudden disruption. At this point, Hecker held up a copy of his letter to the editor and asked whether he wrote it. Mr. Ford admitted that he had and noted that he was unaware of any policy that prohibited him from writing letters to the editor.

Professor Hecker responded by saying that she did not know whether Mr. Ford could remain in the master’s program. She also stated that she would have to discuss the issue with the rest of the faculty. Mr. Ford responded by asking: “Is this something about which I should seek consultation?”

On August 23, 2004, Professor Wetchler sent Mr. Ford an e-mail saying that he wanted to meet to talk “about some of the things that have been happening lately.” Wetchler also sent a copy of the e-mail to other undisclosed recipients. The same day, Professor Flannery (Head of the Department of Behavioral Sciences) met with the program faculty. At the end of this meeting, he approved a memo, which was then placed in Mr. Ford’s mailbox. This memo stated that Purdue and the program had adopted the policy positions of the American Psychological Association on both “same-sex marriage” and same sex parenting.

Mr. Ford read the memorandum and was so disturbed that he had to leave the program clinic for the rest of the day. He feared that the faculty was preparing to remove him from the program. 

But, as the reader will learn in Part V, the faculty had something far worse in mind for our embattled Mormon friend.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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intolerance
Dr. Adams wrote:

"For the first topic, Professor Wetchler explained that he thought high religiosity corresponded with low differentiation, and vice versa. “Differentiation” is a psychological scale that measures emotional development. People with low differentiation scores tend to be anxious and more wrapped up in their emotions, less emotionally balanced, and less developed emotionally. Those with high differentiation scores tend to have more balance between thought and emotion, are less controlled by their emotions, and more developed emotionally."

and

"Professor Hecker abruptly announced to the intern and Mr. Ford that she could no longer work with Mr. Ford ethically. At this point, she was shaking with anger."

Possibly Professor Hecker was modeling Professor Wetchler's opinion as a form of instruction for Mr. Ford.

It is virtually certain that she her enlightened self was not being intolerant.



I wonder
I wonder if professor HECKER will feel the same way about PEDOPHILE patients (when judges recognize thier rights in the future) or if she only accepts homosexuals? Will she change when the American Psychological Association changes thier opinion of PEDOPHILES?

As for MR. FORD,,,, His moral opinion leaves him no wiggle room regarding homosexuals and pedophiles.

I wonder
I wonder if professor HECKER will feel the same way about PEDOPHILE patients (when judges recognize thier rights in the future) or if she only accepts homosexuals? Will she change when the American Psychological Association changes thier opinion of PEDOPHILES?

As for MR. FORD,,,, His moral opinion leaves him no wiggle room regarding homosexuals and pedophiles.

Scooter
No wiggle room regarding homosexuals and pedophiles? Since all pedophiles are homosexuals and all homosexuals are pedophiles, right? Tell that to Jessica Lunsford's parents (for the first part) and to any countless number of gay people that aren't hungry for child sex but just happen to be attracted to people of the same sex (for the second part).

It's statements like this that cause liberals visiting townhall to think that conservatives are stupid rednecks that hate gays. You make their point for them quite well and the rest of us get dragged down along with you.

Right
Why do you suggest that homosexuals are pedophiles and pedophiles are homosexuals?

They are clearly different...
Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex.
Pedophiles are attracted to very young citizens. (or children if you like)


My comments demonstrate that the process of Homosexuals getting RIGHTS (thru judges) will be copied by Pedophiles. If judges can change SODOMY, MARRIAGE, and ADOPTION (for HOMOS) then what chance does ADULT or AGE of CONSENT (for PEDO"S) have?

I have not stated whether HOMOSEXUALITY or PEDOPHILIA or BESTIALITY, or POLYGAMY, or INCEST ETC... is right or wrong.....

What I have stated is that the process for these different groups getting RIGHTS will be the SAME.

If that makes me a REDNECK then perhaps you should be one too.

As to MR FORD with no wiggle room,,, do you believe he should have some?

Do you think PROF HECKER will accept PEDOPHILES looking for therapy when JUDGES recognize thier rights? Or will she then have to RECUSE herself and pass that on to another who is trained to deal with it? Will she be kicked out of the PROGRAM if her MORAL's make it impossible for her to HELP a Pedophile patient? Will that make her any different than MR FORD? Will she go along with anything the American Psychology Association passes?




Right,,, again
Your comments on HOMO's going after CHILD sex is discriminatory to both HOMOSEXUALS and PEDOPHILES.

Homosexuals don't like it because they don't want to be thought of as Pedophiles.
Pedophiles don't like it because they don't want to be thought of as Homosexuals.

They are not the same.... don't try and act like they are...

Unless of course your attracted to Very Young Citizens of the same sex.
Very possible indeed.

Apologies
I guess I misread your post.

Scooter...
I understand your reasoning, but unfortunately people like Van and Leo are only going to skim your post and pick out the Homo/pedophile bit and then go on another tirade about how you are a bigotted Christian.

I honestly don't know whether you are even Christian or Conservative, I had thought that I read a few Liberal type posts from you but I might be mistaken, but in any case, you will be labeled as one.

Given Van and Leo's penchant for twisting and spinning the story, I don't think you should have given them even more fodder.

Some interesting reading...
A poster on the last board posted this so late that not too many people will get the chance to read it, so I will post it for him on this board.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3&v=PRINT

I know that this is going to twist Van's panties, but for all you Bigotted Christian Zealots like me, it makes for a good read.

Here is a hot potatoe for you
scooter writes:
Thursday, August, 30, 2007 1:56 AM
Right,,, again


MALE HOMOSEXUALS COMMIT
A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF CHILD SEX ABUSE CASES
Homosexual apologists admit that some homosexuals sexually molest children, but they deny that homosexuals are more likely to commit such offenses. After all, they argue, the majority of child molestation cases are heterosexual in nature. While this is correct in terms of absolute numbers, this argument ignores the fact that homosexuals comprise only a very small percentage of the population.

The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls.

To demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2) up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys; 3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of the cases of child sexual molestation
From the Family Research Council's website

Thanks for the info
norman writes: Thursday, August, 30, 2007 3:00 AM
Some interesting reading...

Thanks norman, it is choice and confirms what Dr. Jeffrey Santinover states in his book. “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth”
Cheers!

I guess they are not comming back
I part III Leo and Van got hit because of what they were claiming they did that was illegal. So things may be quiet tonight, except for my little gray cheese loving friend.

Either that or they had to go to work.

Look and you now.
Van writes:
Thursday, August, 30, 2007 3:36 AM
Spiceman

I respect you as a capable person, but I feel, from the perspective of principle that you may be deceived or just like to play games. We really like you. You are a very interesting spaceman.

With all the problems world wide we need to open our eyes. Homosexuals and many heterosexuals are just addicted to sex. Their preference just depends on their own experiences where thier interest if focused. Your agenda is not the best won and it will lead to a lost people and corruption, because if requires no

Ops! Button Button who hit the button?
self-control, only indulgence. Would you not agree?

Van, Van, VAn you need to read...
Using research by homosexuals came the rebuttle of the main points used to justify homosexuality.

You will find the link on Part III.

Dr. Satinover discussed the following claims of homosexual activists, and offered a rebuttal to each of them. The claims he challenged were--
That homosexuality has been repeatedly demonstrated to be--and is in fact--an innate, genetically-determined condition.
That homosexuality is an immutable state.
That the only disadvantages of homosexuality are those caused by social disapproval and discrimination.
That a society composed of same-sex couples raising children in family-like units will differ in no undesirable ways from a society composed of traditional family units

Most of the statements below have been selected according to three basic principles:
(1) They are the general conclusions of prominent scientists whose research is well-respected.
(2) The scientists cited have specifically identified themselves as "gay" or "lesbian" and/or as more generally sympathetic to "gay activist" political positions.
(3) Their research is precisely that widely cited and believed as providing evidence directly contrary to what they themselves found and acknowledge. (It is to the credit of a number of them that they have publicly acknowledged that their own evidence contradicts what they had believed and had hoped to confirm.)

Van, Van, Van, you should read
Most of the statements below have been selected according to three basic principles:
(1) They are the general conclusions of prominent scientists whose research is well-respected.
(2) The scientists cited have specifically identified themselves as "gay" or "lesbian" and/or as more generally sympathetic to "gay activist" political positions.
(3) Their research is precisely that widely cited and believed as providing evidence directly contrary to what they themselves found and acknowledge. (It is to the credit of a number of them that they have publicly acknowledged that their own evidence contradicts what they had believed and had hoped to confirm.)

Want to discuss irony...
Only 1-3 % of the population is homosexual.
Yet the homosexual community has made leaps and bounds in their quest for equality, due in no small part by their acceptance into the GENERAL populace, the only "right" still denied outright is marriage. Oh.. and they would like people to think that equal rights for gays include passage of a Hate Crimes bill.

Van and Leo like to talk trash about Bigotted Christians, yet since Christians make up the vast majority of Americans, they had to have played no small role in the acceptance of Gays into the GENERAL Populace.

There is no possible way that Gay people would have made the strides towards tolerance and acceptance that they have, without the help of a large number of Christians.

If Christians were as bigotted as Van and Leo would have everyone believe, Gay people would never come out of the closet for fear of their lives. The fact that they can come out and talk trash about Christians, and parade up and down the street in a dress, and even adopt children, shows exactly how tolerant Christians are towards the Gay lifestyle even if they don't agree with it.

You are an interestin space man.
We are all sepecimans. I referred to you and someone who is out of this world. No offence intended. But you have a bit of a temper, and that is mentioned in the first of Part IV, about emotinal balance and matrurity. Why not let me know what you think. OK!

Spiceman
I do not read hate literature and sitortions of credible research. I have nothing more to say to youm, after all, I was a "specimen", remember?

You intentionally spread lies about millions of your fellow citizens and you seek to tarnish their lives, character and personal dignity. That is all I need to know about you.

You go on and quote Satinover's (already over a deacde oled concoction of lies and distortions) book, your personal Protocols of Zion.

norman

The advances in the lives of gays have happened regardless of animosity and venomous hatred from right wing Christians. And the good Christians have done their best to destroy gay relationships and families by attacking gay adotion even to the point of unconstitutional actions(like in Oklahoma and Texas).


You are an interesting space man.
We are all sepecimans. I referred to you and someone who is out of this world. No offence intended. But you have a bit of a temper, and that is mentioned in the first of Part IV, about emotinal balance and matrurity. Why not let me know what you think. OK!

Oh! Good post norman!

back to mr:Ford
Now how would you react if Mr.Ford

- would refuse to know anything about Jews or judaism and would only accept antisemitic literature, attitudes or opinions as "facts"
- would refuse to treat a Jew and would demend that he wouldn't be asked to. he would refer all Jews to another professionals because he doesn't want them to tarnish his work space
- would write antisemitic editorials where he describes how Jews are in the process of destroying the world and western civilization.

Would you be as willing to defend the idea that he has to remain inthe program? Or is it only people who hate gays that should have special rights? Do you think that people who have degrees in therapy or psychology should actually have some professional ethics and standards? Or should Christians or mormons allowed to a buse their clients as they will without any regard to any standards or boundaries set by profession?

Would you defend a man who leaves a gay man unterated in emergecy room because his religious conviction allows him to ban treatment or assistance? Would you defend a man who refuses to treat all christians or Jews or mormons. period?

You miss my point entirely...
Good Christians make up the MAJORITY of the populace. Not all Democrats are Liberal or atheist. There are still many good Christians that vote Democrat for one reason or another(look at the deep south African Americans). That means that many of the people you criticize, actually agree with you on equality issues if not your personal sexual lifestyle.

Here's a link to a GAY weblog giving your same arguments about the impossibility of gay people turning straight, yet the individual they are discussing did just that.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGki6GfdZGW08BbgNXNyoA?p=gay+turned+straight&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501

Another question, if it is impossible to turn a gay man straight, then is it also impossible to turn a straight man gay? And if so, why is it that most of my gay EX-friends have attempted to do that very thing with me? I say "ex" because they chose not to respect my personal values, even though I accepted theirs.

You miss my point entirely...
Good Christians make up the MAJORITY of the populace. Not all Democrats are Liberal or atheist. There are still many good Christians that vote Democrat for one reason or another(look at the deep south African Americans). That means that many of the people you criticize, actually agree with you on equality issues if not your personal sexual lifestyle.

Here's a link to a GAY weblog giving your same arguments about the impossibility of gay people turning straight, yet the individual they are discussing did just that.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGki6GfdZGW08BbgNXNyoA?p=gay+turned+straight&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501

Another question, if it is impossible to turn a gay man straight, then is it also impossible to turn a straight man gay? And if so, why is it that most of my gay EX-friends have attempted to do that very thing with me? I say "ex" because they chose not to respect my personal values, even though I accepted theirs.

oops..
double post... sorry

If I hated anyone I hate my self
But I do not hate myself or I could not respect or love others, meaning to care for others and to serve them unconditionally. Love, in the biblical sense is not a sexual passion, it is a caring spirit, willing to care and share with others every good thing.

I can see that I may not understand you, nor do you understand me, because we come from different perspectives and are preconditioned so we read things in to a conversation something that are not there.

So be cool even though we do not agree. "The truth shall make us free."

Mr. Ford respected Gays
Van:

How do you read into anything he said that would be understod as hate for gays?

I must have mised that part. I will check it ouf atain. But, incase I miss it clue me in.

Yes... I would defend such a man...
Simply because he has a right to his own beliefs. And he also has the right to suffer the financial fallout of losing patients who consider him discrminatory or from being fired for not helping someone in an emergency situation. What you don't have a right to do is kick him out of a federally funded program for holding such beliefs.

Gotta go...
Good Night

norman
So, such people should be able to go through a schooling that gives him the credeantials to become a licensed psychotherapist? So we should train racists who refuse to work with blacks and just give them a free ride into a profession of soacial work? Or amntisemites who claim that Jews are inferiror to aryans? And who refuse those beliefes to be challenged during the training, who refuse to learn anything that challeges those beliefs and who refuse to treat such patients?

Wonderful. So programs should have no tstandards for bigots. none whatsoever. there should be no ethical or other professional guidelines and if there are bigots should get exemptions about them? Or only anti-agy bigots?




norman
And Michaal Glatzke is not straight. Hes celibate gay if even that. As is Charlene Coltrane, Alan Chambers and other ex-gays for pay. Glatzke is so obviously disturbed and paranoid that even the craziest anti-gay hate groups like AFA have anbandoned him.

Spiceman
said

"Love, in the biblical sense is not a sexual passion, it is a caring spirit, willing to care and share with others every good thing."

And that is shown by calling gays pedophiles. As I said you'r e blind to the hatred you spew. But I can choose. I do not socialize with liars, frauds and slanderers. I do not speak to you from now on. Make your excuses to someone else how lying about people is a token of Christian love. It's an act of vicious nature and intentionally harmful. You choose not to take responsibility of those lies so I'm only left with the choisce of diassociating myself from people like you or scooter.

I don't socialize with evil.

Back on Topic
It seems every time a column even tangentially discusses homosexuality, the thread of comments devolves into a slugfest.

To get back on topic, I think what is most astounding about what Mike writes today is the unprofessional conduct and disregard among the faculty at Purdue for academic objectivity.

Where Mike relates how Professor Wetchler suggests two thesis topics to Mr. Ford, I was appalled. When I was a graduate student, I discussed potential topics for my dissertation with my doctoral committee, and in no case did they suggest a foregone conclusion to those topics.

"Professor Wetchler had concluded that very religious people are less developed emotionally and more unbalanced than their secular counterparts."
And "Professor Wetchler had concluded that religious people are more intolerant and that intolerant people are more religious than their counterparts."

A intellectually honest suggestion by Professor Wetchler would have been: "Are religious people less or more developed emotionally..." and "Are religious people more or less intolerant..." then leave it up to Mr. Ford to perform research and analysis to find answers to those questions, even if the conclusions did not conform with Professor Wetchler's own preconceived notions.

It is apparent to me that the Behavioral Science faculty at Purdue is only interested in pushing an agenda, and is not interested in finding the truth as social scientists.

http://www.countrymanscorner.blogspot.com

Van
After three days of trying to decipher your screeds and figure out what it is that you're so hepped up about, I'd like to ask you some simple questions, one post at a time.

What exactly is it that you feel Mr. Ford has refused to learn about homosexuality?

and countryman
If a department of psychology teaches the proefssional standards of practice and basic ethics including equal treatment of gays ACCORDING to those standards of care, it is "pushing an agenda" but demending a right to discriminate against gays or any other groups in service provision beased on religious prejudice and bigotry is "finding a truth as social scientist".

Isn't that a bit thick considering that we're atlking abouyt a man who REFUSED the find out any kind of truth about gays other than provide by his Church? It's mr.Ford who replaced truth with his religious dogma and and he also used that dogma as reasoning NOT TO SERVE all clients and refuse to treat them, because of his prejuduces.

had he done the same to Jewish clients or blacks he would have been kicked out in a nanosecoond and no Adams would have defended him. But gaysbashing, that's "scientific inquiry" at its best?

Do't you bigots have even a smidgen of intellectual honesty in you?

Van, Ran, whatever
Actually your statements about Mike Adams and Mr. Ford that they spread lies about gays and hate them cannot be verified.

Mr. Ford denied treatment to gays? Well, for one, he offered to help one with what the patient described as a psychological problem. And every psychologist is free to deny treatment to potential patients, and suggest they look for another psychologist.

As to your suggestion that he refused to learn anything about gays (which is never stated, so I must assume that is your unfounded opinion; besides which, you think that Messrs. Adams and Ford lie, so how do we know he refused?)...if it were a pro-gay psychology student, would he refuse to learn anything about the views of the LDS church concerning gays?

"THAT EVERYONE OF US GETS TO CHOOSE FACTS AND WHAT HE LEARNS OR DOESN'T LEARN?" - look in the mirror.

Your attempted analogy to an anti-semite refusing to treat Jews is a false analogy. Jewishness is not a behavioral pattern, but a religion and ethnicity. The ontology of homosexuality is still debated in academia, whether it is a genetic, biological predisposition or a psychological abnormality; abnormality in this case is not a pejorative, but a recognition that it falls outside the normal curve, just as paranoia, in your case, does.

Take a quaalude, man, van, ran, whatever.

http://www.countrymanscorner.blogspot.com

Ranjo
Read what he said: he doesn't need to know anything else but what his religion has "taught" him.

Why does this remind me of Scott Savage?
It almost sounds like Mr Ford is going to be brought up on sexual harassment charges just like the Quaker Scott Savage at OSU Mansfield.

I wonder how Scott's lawsuits are coming along. The one where he is suing those intollerent profs who falsely accused him. The press never seems to pick up on him.

p

Van
"Read what he said: he doesn't need to know anything else but what his religion has "taught" him."

That's it? That's your response? I ask for YOUR thoughts as to what Mr. Ford needed to learn about homosexuality and this is the best that you can do?

I already know what Mr. Ford's religion taught him. What I was hoping for was a clear-cut answer from you as to what his education into the nature of homosexuality was lacking...and you can't -or won't - provide a serious answer. This passes for "intellectual honesty"?

Norman: Turn a straight man gay?
No, no, no, no! That can't happen, But what CAN happen is for a man who has suppressed his homosexual tendencies by trying to "act" straight to finally come to grips with who he really is and step out of the closet. Or some such silly giberish.

Treating people like people...
Quoting Robert Burns:

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!

What would the professors feel like if they could *really* see themselves as the Mormon students saw them? Would they act differently? Would they treat the Mormon students differently?

What would the Mormon students feel like if they could *really* see themselves as the professors saw them? Would they act differently? Would they treat the professors differently?

I don't know the answer to the questions, but my impression so far is that the students have tried very hard to understand the professors, but the professors don't seem to have tried at all. Perhaps they're not supposed to try--maybe they feel they have all the truth already.

In the end, this piece seems to be more about treating people like people than it is about gay rights.

Please forgive TH posters ...
but I'm going to break my own self-imposed rule and respond to Van.

Van

I'll admit I haven't read all your posts over the last few days. I think I've read enough to get the gist of your view. The problem with your posts is that you extrapolate ideas from other posters that were never intended. In fact you twist peoples comments to such a degree to make your view appear completely ludicrous.

A running theme in your posts is that Mr. West refused to treat someone who professed to be a homosexual. Just so we're clear, here is what was stated in the very first column of this series:

"Later on that summer, Mr. West met with a young male who sought counseling from LDS Family Services. The teenager felt attracted to other men and wanted help so he could overcome those desires. After talking with the teen, Mr. West mentioned the situation to his supervisor, Professor Hecker. Mr. West had never discussed this type of situation in any of his classes so he wanted guidance."

I'm at a loss as to how you can glean from that paragraph how Mr. West is a bigot. Would you prefer that Mr. West treat him WITHOUT the guidance of his professor? THAT would lend credence to your argument that he was counseling based upon his LDS beliefs.

If you can't comprehend what has been written, please refrain from making concluding statements. It makes you appear ignorant and illogical.

van dont be a coward
I asked you this before, either you overlooked or found it difficult to deal with so again:

A married man comes to a therapist and relates that he likes to visit prostitutes in nevada(so legal) but he feels guilty about it and he would like the therapist to help get rid of his guilt.

The therapist states that he personally does not think it a good idea and he would be help him curb his prostitute impulses but if he does not want to do that, gives the name of another therapist would might help him in getting rid of his guilt.

Your comment on the ethics of this.

That should have been...
forgive ME TH posters.

I'm so tired of Van
Van's specious arguments that attempt to draw analogies between homosexuality and anti-Semitism and racism, and his repeated rants that he hopes other groups of people are treated badly, just show how eaten up with hate and wrong thinking he is. But, he is a one-note guy. BORING! Hey, Van, why don't you get on a gay website and complain about us Townhallers there. You're not convincing anyone here. And you are BORING.

van dont be a coward 2
The fact that HS is legal does not mean it is not a value question. One could show respect to HS, not deprive them of employment etc and still not a good thing for it be mainstreamed. After all there many things that are legal: prostitution in Nevada(and I think should be legalized) but some may think not an ideal life style. Masturbating 10 times a day is legal, but some may think not a good life style.
I see the student treating HS with dignity in spite of his thinking not an ideal life style. And if recuses himeself from helping HS accept their lifestyle in a dignified matter what more can you ask given there are many other therapists available.

van dont be a coward 3
I am pro-choice. I have no difficulty in an MD refusing to do an elective abortion because of his value system. The only requirement in such case would be an emergency abortion because of serious health problems or possibility of death where there is necessity for quick action.

What is your take.

van dont be a coward 4
Let us take the article as true for the sake of this discussion. What ticked off the professors is the student's newspaper column that where gay marriage legal it has led to less marriage for hetersexuals.
This is either factual or not. But what does have it do with hate. And what does have to do with qualfications to be a counselor. Just stick to that point.

where are the lawsuits, van?
Mike Adams lies about his colleagues? And he must be lying about these people?

Why has he never been sued for defamation? Not once, over the span of his career?

Respectfully, sir, could you calmly answer that question?

norman
I read your citation from family research. But i dont think it is relevant to the issue and unfortunately all the posters except you have gone on tangents. The only issue is whether the student is acting unethically in this controversial issue. And the gay bashing in general gets off the point so all you have is emotion. Let us give Van the benefit of the doubt that he can be rational but if he keeps getting attacked on irrelevant issues it only drives him to be more defensive.

Van, a couple questions for ya
You never answered these yesterday, so I pose them to you once again:

1. Would a devout Mormon couple, seeking couples counseling, have a right to seek and find a counselor whose beliefs and attitudes toward marriage were consistent with their own?

2. Would a devout Christian man, finding himself plagued with homosexual feelings and urges, and wishing to find help, have a right to seek and find a counselor who shared his beliefs and attitudes, and who wished to help him achieve his goals?

These are yes or no questions, so please make an effort to answer them as asked. I anticipate that you will turn this question around on me, so just to get that out of the way:

1. Yes, I believe that a gay couple seeking couples counseling would absolutely have the right to find a counselor whose attitudes toward gay unions were entirely sympathetic.

2. Yes, I believe that a gay man who, troubled by guilt as a legacy of a Christian upbringing, would absolutely have a right to find a counselor who wished not to "cure" him, but rather to help him find a comfort level with his sexuality.

However, it would be rather silly if you were to bring up those hypotheticals, since such counselors are rather easy to find in this day and age.

Van
Folks let me save you some time, if you have read any of Van's posts the last 3 days you can ignore any from today as they will be more or less exactly the same as what he has already written.

van dont be a coward 5
Does it follow if you do not think marriage for HS or polygamy should be legalized in US that you hate gays or those that practice polygamy either here in the US or where it is legal in Arab countries.

van correction on last post
last post should

NOT legal

norman and van
In my opinion neither the student, who seems quite honest and moral, nor the incompentent agenda driven staff are competent to deal with the student who is bothered by his HS impulses. My whole approach to this matter is that it needs some who is not agenda driven nor having a strong religious committment, but who respects the religious committment of the client and takes on the case on an experimental matter with sophsitication and explains to the client that this is an experiment in which we attempt various things and nothing is written in stone and in no case is the client to be made guilty if various things don't turn out.

of course, all so called therapy should be considered an experiment in progress and not agenda driven.

randy
So what you're saying is that it ain't right to discrimate against Jews or blacks in health care or social services but it is Ok to deny access to services and refuse to serve gays. Charming.

Nolt about homosexualtiy
per se, but about the treatment of a legally enrolled student in a college-sponsored program being discriminataed against because of his religious beliefs.

Purdue is in serious violation of the First Amendment and the federal civil rights act of 1967 and 1972 that prohibit the discrimination on basis of religion.

Who is Purdue training to be therapists? Most Roman Catholics do not subscribe to the gay political agenda. Obviously, LDS members feel they cannot accept encouraging homosexuality. I don't know about LDS, but Catholics make up 1/4 of the US population. Purdue is certainly extreme in its application of standards of psychological therapy.

van, this traffic jam!
hurts my motor to go so slow.

Seriously, where are the lawsuits, man? Van. Man.

Psychology and its ilk
Crazy people trying to prove to themselves that they are not crazy, but we are... Not only did the communists and nazi's take over academia and "pseudo-science", but the persecution is above board now. There ar "norms", and not everything is NORMAL,,,

Fergus
Yes to the first, although to be honest it might be more beneficial to seek help outside the Church.

In second case: help for what exactly? If he wants therapist to "cure" him or make him straight, it would be unethical and a lie to claim that a therapist can do that. Mormon or not, it ain't right to psychologically abuse or mutilate the clients, claim to be able to cure something that doesn't need cure and is not "curable" to begin with. There are enough miserable horror stories about gay men who have been abused by their bigoted therpists for years. Not to talk about ex-agy (mormon or Christian) bootcamps where parents send their children to be "cured" but end up having their kids seriously damaged and hurt.

If the man wants to remain celibate or seek a relationship with a woman he doesn't love or sexually want it would be a horrendous mistake as qualified therapist to encourage a peron to live in a utter lie.

Basically a therpiats that buys the idea that it's oK for a client to loath himself for being gay is a quack who endangers the physical and psychological well being of his client.

Clear enough?

Van
Having attempted to read many of your poorly written posts (do yourself a favor and learn about spellcheck at least), I have come to the conclusion that I sincerely feel sorry for you. You are obviously a very bitter, unhappy, and possibly tortured soul, who sees hate and bigotry next to every word and between each line. I would love to suggest that you let go of the hate and try to give other people at least the benefit of the doubt regarding their intentions. But, sadly, I don't think you are capable of that.

I know, I know; like Dr. Adams and Mr. Ford, I am nothing more than a homophobic (whatever that really is), racist, bigoted, religious zealot. How truly tiresome.

What is love? Part I
What is love? Part I

Van writes:
Thursday, August, 30, 2007 5:05 AM
Spiceman said
"Love, in the biblical sense is not a sexual passion, it is a caring spirit, willing to care and share with others every good thing."

Van wrote:“ And that is shown by calling gays pedophiles. As I said you're blind to the hatred you spew.
I don't socialize with evil.”

The consequences of homosexuality are well documented. It has been likened to alcoholics who deny anything is wrong, until they reach a point where they are dysfunctional, and sometimes almost dead.

“On a freezing night to men came running to our camp. One of them was beating the other with a willow. When they were within a stone through of camp, the beating stopped and the men came walking single file into camp. They were both happy to see us, but we asked them why one was beating the other. The man receiving the beating said that beating saved my life.

What is love? Part II
If you feel that you are being beaten on, it is to save your life in more ways that one. The life spam of homosexuals on average is less that of alcoholics, due to infection, substance abuse and sexual excesses and suicide. This reality exists and self-denial says it will not happen to me. Some are luckier but on average, there is a greater risk. Some say the benefits outweigh the risk, until they reach that point that nothing helps and they agonize those last months, weeks or days.

Do homosexuals promote it, and defend it? You know the answer, because you would not be here, otherwise. We care about you gays too, but you have made your bed, and we will not force you to accept this truth. Moreover, we will not go to sleep and neglect to warn and protect the uninformed, those who we can help to prevent the crime committed against the innocent as in abortion and sexual exploitation. It is not criminal, until it is deemed that a person breaks the law that ignorant people and judges, similarly inflicted lay on a state, and a nation. This is not going to happen. This puppy is more that six weeks old, and you cannot deny that we have been fare, and respectable. Any one who tells you the truth is a bigot, a gay basher but you are blind and asleep to the fact of the

renny
So you think that Purdue should teach all their students to become professional gaybashers who refuse to treat gays? Is that what you want?

Now, tell me does your 1st amendment idea alaos include that doctors who refuse to treat blacks DURING their training should be allowed to get a degree? or are you just in favor of training specifically gay bashers?

West Texan

Blah blah... and religious bigotry of a man who refuses to treat a gay man is not "fascism"? Replacing scientific facts with superstition and prejudice is not "pseudo science"?

Give the universities to Christians annd we shall see the death of all true scientific inquiry and witness the return of scholasticism.


Half Full
While Dr. Adams obviously feels strongly about academic freedom, there's a second point of this series of articles that is, in my opinion, the continued attack on "people of faith" by the homosexual movement.

There are two sets of standards when it comes to religious freedom. The very same leftists, and homosexuals in particular, who scream loudly should a person of faith cross the line and bring his faith into secular society have absolutely no problem crossing that line the other direction in an attempt to deny a person of faith his right to believe.

The homosexual movement is going after mainline churches and has been for years. They think they've beaten the Roman Catholics (they're mistaken) and now they've targeted the Episcopal church. In both of these cases, the churches that have been attacked have been complicit in the attack, and that's tragic. If they succeed in compromising these churches and other churches, look for a rewritten homosexual version of the Bible further legitimizing this behavior. It's abhorrent to me, but that's where they're going. It's not as if history of organizations that are as totalitarian as todays GLBT movement haven't left us with clues.

Ironically, as others have posted, most Christians tend to be respectful and tolerant of homosexuals. Perhaps we have been too nice for too long. The end game for these folks is the very destruction of our faith, my faith. They rationalize that if they defeat Christianity that they will have what they wish for, that is a secular society with no dissent. I'm not so sure. The rise of other, less tolerant faiths around the world suggests that people need a reason bigger than government to believe, and some of these other faiths, unlike Christianity, are hellbent (pardon the pun) on establishing theocracies.

It could be a whole lot worse for our homosexual brothers and sisters than it is today.

What is love Part III
homosexual dilemma, of moral, spiritual, and social decay. “Whom the lord loveth he reproves.”

Religion & Mental Health
Wetchler is clearly out of touch with the literature on religion and mental health, in saying that religious people were not as healthy. By 2004 it was clearly known that people who are more religious are also happier and less prone to depression and anxiety. They smoke and drink less, use illicit drugs much less, have happier marriages, better sex lives, and lower rates of divorce.

Any good literature search would have revealed this. By 2004, the long-time religion antagonist and outspoken atheist, Dr. Al Ellis had admitted in print that religion does confer real benefits.

But so many liberals are unimpressed with data if they don't fit their preconceptions.

To My Townhall Brethren

I have concluded that "Van" has to be either a satirist or a plant by someone trying to make fun of gay liberals.

There is absolutely NO WAY any sane person trying to carry on a serious and sincere debate on these threads could be so obtuse, lame, inflexible, intolerant and emotionally challenged.

Even the twisted grammer and spelling errors are intentional.

And even if I am incorrect... what a colossal waste of time it is to debate "him".

Don't respond to Van
He brings nothing to the discussion. Don't feed the troll, please, people.

Daffy
so gays should just accept the beatings they get today by you because there are even worse people? Is your point that gays should be happy to be let live instead of Christians killing them as they would be rightly entitled to do? That gays live only because of your mercy?

And once again it is Christians who seek to destroy gays, who have advocated for jailing gays (as recently as 2003), who advoacte for denying all legal proetctions from gay couples, inclusding private agreements (Louisisana and Virginia marriage amendments), who have advocated for removing adopted children from gay couples just out of spite (Oklahoma, Texas), who have advovated for denying gays access to health care, torture and killing of African gays and gays in muslim countries? Who oppose all attempts to prevent anti-gay byllying in schools and who even send hate materials and anti-gay T-shirts to schools for kids to wear (alliance Defense Fund)? There is not other such wide hate vcampaign than the anti-agy nationawide campaign of religious right.

No gay person has ttacked your chucrh but minute men have forced themselved to gay friendly Church and threatened the pastor who was gay friendly. Christian parents who disn't have anything to do with thair gay children when they were alive, sue their partners for inheriatnce when their child dies...

And now, you praise a man who refuses to treat gays. Well, you have lost of experience of abandoning gays to die on streets in 1980's. it's apity that your indifference then didn't manage to kill us all, isn' it however much you love to see gays suffer.

Van
"Yes to the first, although to be honest it might be more beneficial to seek help outside the Church."

Isn't seeking help outside the church what we are talking about here? And if Mormon aspirants to the profession are to be discouraged - or, as you would have it, actively shunned - by the institutions that train counselors in the profession, how then is the hypothetical couple supposed to FIND such a counselor?


"If the man wants to remain celibate or seek a relationship with a woman he doesn't love or sexually want it would be a horrendous mistake as qualified therapist to encourage a peron to live in a utter lie."

Why, exactly, do you see celibacy as such a horrible prospect here? I won't address the whole "cure" issue; I am not qualified. But again, the situation is that the man is a) gay, and b) Devoutly Christian. In this instance, living as an actively gay man would be a complete violation of all he believes. He wants to find a counselor who will help him in a way that is consistent with his Christian beliefs. Does he have the right to such a counselor?

Or, at the root of it, is it your opinion that such an individual would have no choice but to abandon his religious beliefs in favor of where to put his p*nis?

Funny
The thesis forced upon Mr. Ford are a prime example of the "cheating spouse" syndrome - spouses who are cheating often project accusations of cheating on the faithful spouse.

Much in the same way these "tolerant" professors accuse Mr. Ford of having low emotional development because of his faith...a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

It is the PROFESSORS who have the emotional range of a promecium. It is the PROFESSORS who get angry because someone doesn't bow before the altar of Moloch.

It is the PROFESSORS (and liberals here) who simultaneously refuse to understand our (and Mr. Ford's) arguments while claiming it's "impossible" to disapprove of someone's behavior but still treat that person with respect and dignity.

Religious people have a far greater emotional maturity than those who refuse to grow up, have morals, and act like rational adults.

Fergus
Whatever. As long as you can create a maximum amount of misery and make the poor gay bloke suffer as much as possible.

Of course the guys has the right to be treated by religious extremist quacks who keep in constant state of fear and guilt and finally drive him into insabity and suicide. Total success, one hay less. A worthy goal for any Christian therapist.

Keep on advocating for client abuse in the name of religion. Have fun denying access to health care and social services from gays. Celebrate when a Christian health care professional has a right to spit a gay man in pain inthe eyes and tell him that I'm not going to help you just because I don't want to.

As long as it's gays that suffer.




Van
I have one question for you, how many under age boys have you convinced they were born gay?
I have talked to many gay people and if you can get them to talk serious for a minute instead of parroting the gay company line," I was gay at 3 years old, snap!"
They will admit they where recruit into the life style by an older homosexual.
Any gay man who does this should be put in prison and never see the light of day.

Van, stop your propaganda, this people aren't young boys you idiot.

Van
What a hateful, Leftist cuss you are. I ask a reasonable question, you come back at me with how I want to torture and murder all gays - as if that bears any relationship to what I actually SAID.

Are you at all *capable* of a rational discussion on this, or do your prejudices and passions so overwhelm your reason as to render dispassionate debate impossible for you?

Interesting that such an unbalanced individual is debating a mental health issue.

Van
No one is advocating "beating gays"! GET OVER IT and LEARN TO READ!

We are just asking for the freedom - as expressed by the First Amendment - to practice our religion freely. We are demanding the right that we have to disagree with the politically correct bullying people like you engage in.

You spout off these pronouncements, but provide no evidence. You twist REAL facts for the sake of your biased argument, and you hysterically claim your lies are truth. They aren't, and clearly no one's buying it.

If you and Leo had your way, Christians would be unable to receive any education or hold any job in any field.

Tell me now who's the emotionally stunted, childish, immature, and bigoted group?

I'll give you a hint - it's not people of faith.

englishqueen
Aren't we on self righteous mood today... does it make you all warm and tingly to think how much better person you are than those pesky gays who claim to "respect" but who really are "immature" unlie you, who by virtue of bigotryu has achieved such high level of amaturity that it allows you to advocate for denying equal access to services from gays. Whom you respect so much you wish them to be second class citizens.

Gays must be really grateful for such amount of respect... maybe when they're denied access to emergency services by another guy like mr. Ford here they can always rely non being "respected" by some sanctimonious and self promoting Christian.

Mr Ford's "argument" was that he refuses to treat gays and he advocates for denying all legal proetections form gay couples thus making their relationships and families more vulnerable. Anything that hurts gays is fine to this fine specimen of a health care professional. more it hurts gays the better it is.

van : why are you hesitant
I am a non-believer and so dont have any fish to fry and the questions I asked you have nothing to do with gay bashing but force you to think without emotion. Is that why you are avoiding such.

Fergus
Whatever... I have seen people after being "treated" for "unanted gay feelings" for years. thay were all messed up, spiritually and psychologically moested and mutilated human ruins... and all were still gay.

They were forever cured from trusting another human being, they hated their Church, their families had abandoned them and their vicious therpists had told them that it was their fault that they hadn't changed... several of them ahev attempted suicide, suffer from depression and ALL of them know that had they accepted their orientation and not sought the jhelp of those quacks and abusers they would be better off.

on't you dare to lecture me about irrationality because I know real people that have been horribly abused by their Christian counsellors.

Van
Self-righteous? Wow! For someone who's blood pressure is probably astronomical right now, it's pretty funny that you accuse me of being self-righteous when you clearly think you're the paragon of tolerance.

I never said gays were immature - I said *YOU* are immature, because you refuse to address issues and you refuse to back up your claims with evidence and fact.

I do not wish them to be "second-class" citizens. Please show me where I said that, if you think I'm lying. My argument has remained consistent: religious freeodm is a First Amendment right, Mr. Ford has the right to refer a gay patient to a therapist if he feels unfit or uncomfortable to treat said patient.

That is not bigoted; that is professionalism.

You also clearly have no understanding of basic law. It is illegal for any emergency facility (i.e., a hospital ER) to refuse treatment to ANY person.

Mr. Ford is not an ER nurse or doctor, it is unlikely that ANY case he encounters will be a life-or-death emergency situation. If so, Mr. Ford is not the ONLY therapist on the planet - so your argument is a straw man.

Please show me where Mr. Ford says he wants to "hurt gays" and advocates denying them all legal protection.

I have no problem with an employer or business offering health insurance benefits and coverage to same-sex couples, so long as the couple assumes financial responsibility for the costs - as would any couple. In fact, I think an employee should be able to extend benefits to a person of his/her choosing (i.e., you're single and live with your brother). But that's another discussion.

Primus 54 has it correct below
These threads are for learning and discussing ideas. The more you respond to silliness the more of it you get. It is us subsidizing inanity when we respond. Sort of like the war on poverty. Welfare subsidized poverty and we got more poverty. The other great disgrace after Hurricane Katrina was the abject poverty in NO. It was there before Katrina but after 40 years and trillions of dollars in the war on poverty. Ignore the silliness and they'll go bother others.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Primus54 writes: Thursday, August, 30, 2007 8:55 AM
To My Townhall Brethren

I have concluded that "Van" has to be either a satirist or a plant by someone trying to make fun of gay liberals.

There is absolutely NO WAY any sane person trying to carry on a serious and sincere debate on these threads could be so obtuse, lame, inflexible, intolerant and emotionally challenged.

Even the twisted grammer and spelling errors are intentional.

And even if I am incorrect... what a colossal waste of time it is to debate "him".

englishqueen1
I admire your attempts but I think you are just wasting your time here.

"Van" is a fraud. Arguing with him is like trying to capture a greased pig. You get a lot of exercise, but what's the point?

englishqueen
People who refuse to treat people because of their religion have no place in health care. And how is denying access to health care "practicing one's religion"? Would you approve a muslim doctor who refuses to assist a Jew? WOULD YOU?

When a gay man or woman seeks for help from social services or hospital he's the only person WHO ALWAYS takes a risk that there's some bigot who "disagrees" with his right to exist or to get help to whatever his/her problem is. Gays are the only ones Christians can refuse to treat, help or assist and the tell me that ceasing to be human to another suffering human being is "practice of religion".

GO practice it somewhwre else than health care services if it prevents you from doing your job.

And of coure your bigotry is not an"Biased" argument. You just "disagree" with the right of gays to exist. It's bit like how nazis had a mere disagreement with Jews.

len, sorry I haven't seen your questions but I have to leave anyway.

Keep on gay bashing here... let's all make excuses for denyinfg all access to any public service from gays just because as Christians it's you God given duty to cause as much suffering as you can.

You all think I'm over the top but I actually think that Christians are evil. But to quote englishqueen, it's not bigotry, just a "disagreement". And yet, I'm willing to bet that in real life I have more respect toward all of you than you have toward gays. Because however much you try to hide it, your contempt shows.


goblue
Thanks from a Scarlet & Gray fan!

Cheers

Van
"As long as it's gays that suffer." (A quote from Van's 9:11 AM post.)

At long last we have reached Van's real objective: The end of homosexuality through suffering and torture.

It has become increasingly clear that Van's true desire is for the obliteration of the homosexual lifestyle through violence. He hates homosexuals and all that they stand for and, although he thinks of them frequently, he thinks very little of them.

Van The Homosexual Hater! Van The Hate-Monger!

Perhaps, Van, you could begin your pogrom by having all homosexuals read your "defense" of their lifestyle.



Primus 54
Agreed.

It's a waste of time to argue with people like Van and Leo.

They clearly cannot comprehend the complexity of the situation, which is rather ironic since irreligious people are supposed to have more emotional maturity.

Quit the spam Van
My youngest daughter's best friend in high school was a gay male. He was always welcome in our home and knew that, as devout Catholics, we did not approve of his lifestyle. He was literate (unlike Van) and was an interesting conversationlist.

For those who equate homosexuality with pedophelia, let's not confuse the issues. For you pedophilia-inclined posters all I have to say is if you approach my grandkids (young citizens as has been posted) the last feeling you will have is the cold barrel of my Kimber .45 before you go toes up.

scooter
you're probably right. But the homosexual agenda is all a part of the slippery slope of abortion. It all began with the disregard for the sanctity of life. I tend to believe that unless and until we go back to respecting ALL life we will continue to reap what we sow. What you are suggesting is a definite possibility. I say that those of us who see the homosexual agenda as a threat to our society in general stand up and say: WE'RE LOUD. WE'RE PROUD. WE'RE BIGOTS!!!!! Deal with it homosexuals!!! We'll be in your faces until you're FORCED to deal with it! Do I have that right? Is that how they started with the whole "acceptance" thing??

Such hyperbole and exaggeration
Blacks are not amused at having their civil rights compared to "gay rights." There is a great deal of difference between being physically a man or woman of color--something obvious to those with eyes--and being a man or woman of another sexual "orientation"--something which SHOULD be internalized. The disgust many feel with the "gay rights" movement is that most people do not spend their time discussing their sex lives or making it the MOST IMPORTANT THING about them.

Gay Pride days and parades are an irritating "in-your-face" announcement of what should be a private matter. THAT is one of the reasons that many people are fed up with homosexuals, even though each of us probably knows someone who is, but doesn't make a "big deal" out of it.

Gay-bashing is a liberal term for anything someone says about the homosexual lifestyle. Actual physical attacks on gays are quite minimal, but, of course, should never occur. No one uses the term "adulterer-bashing," which is another of the sex-related topics to which people object and make comments about. It's all a matter of ones perspective and "gay" people want everyone to accept their lifestyles. It will never happen.


Frog and others...
Clearly, Van's thinking is muddled, and his grasp of grammar, spelling and composition minimal. Arguing with him will accomplish nothing.

As to "learning" about homosexuals, what is there to learn? They practice perverted sexual behavior. Not much more to it than that.

the article
Mr. Ford said he would not be comfortable counseling homosexuals on sex therapy, I believe. Not that he would not see homosexuals. The entire situation with Mr. Ford shows the lefts hypocrisy regarding tolerance. Tolerance to Ford's professors means agree with them or else.

Real issue
The core of this is intolerance toward believing religious people. It is a story of a Mormon being attacked and persecuted. Some of the comments on this Townhall site about Mormons have been hateful in the past; today I see a heart-warming trend toward solidarity. Thank you, my friends. If the homosexual agenda succeeds in driving Mormons out of professional education, won't Baptists be next?

Letting the discussion be hijacked by trolls is not a helpful direction. Focus on the anti-religion warfare from the left. That is the danger.

A quote from an expert:

"In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

"Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

"Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

"Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

"Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Pastor Martin Niemöller
http://www.serendipity.li/cda/niemoll.html

van is spy for the very christian right
It is quite clear that Van is a spy for the christian right or some kind of person who gets off or his rocks off by antagnozing other people.

He clearly does not do the HS interest in getting respect and legal rights any good. One does not make progress by antagonzing the people you need support from as voters. So his interest is not in advancing the cause but either get his own personal ego in attacking without any idea of convincing or he is a spy for the religous right and by his posting in turning people to what is reasonable for HS population.

A spy or egomaniac with no regard for his own cause.

Which is it.

some comments
freethinker
when did you chooce to be straight?

Van since when has counceling been concidered health care? say instead that someone came to this student with strong urges to kill someone but has not acted on them yet would you feel comfortable treating him by your self?

Van-what are you reading?
Your posts do not correspond to Dr. Adams' articles. Is English not your primarly language?

There is a better way
Respectable friends,

Van, needs to soften up a bit, and realize he is really among friends who really care, but are not given to compromise their values for social favors, or give up integrity to be liked. Homosexuals as well as Liberals have a great need to be accepted and loved, because they have such a low opinion of themselves, so public approval or conquest is their substitute for self-esteem. A false sense of values, living to merit the praise of their peers, while ignoring the real people who love them.

This attitude is fostered in a neglected, lonely and hurt abused child. The change that takes place in a child between the ages of inception and two year of age: they develop 100% of their personality and character traits. Many an inclination is fostered and promoted that early. By four they acquire 50% of their adult intelligence, by eight 75%.

Where a person is young, insecure or has been neglected and abused, that early experience of same sex, sexual experience promotes the same sex, sexual attraction; Magazines, movies, videos and the like, as erotic entertainments condition the mind of even the most straight male or female, if we endure those corrupt entertainments, as with sympathy we tolerate then we embrace. “Evil compunction corrupt good manners.”

For this reason, Van you may feel rebuffed and angry with me, I cannot hold that against you, I do appreciate your courage and determination, which is typical to all in survival mode and those who are addicted to adrenal, which deadens the pain. When we are nice to you, you have to twist everything to keep up the fight. Your are a good person; however you need the blessing of the spirit and the love of God. I hope you may understand that is the only power that will set you free. May God Bless you. You will be in our prayers.

Van's dismissal
"Family research Council is anti-gay hate site"

Nice dismissal Van but it does nothing to advance your position.

I guess a dismissal is easier than point by point rebuttal.

Van
"on't you dare to lecture me about irrationality because I know real people that have been horribly abused by their Christian counsellors."

1. Have you ever in your life encountered the term "non sequitur"? You might want to look it up; it is particularly a propos here.

2. I will dare anything I like; you argue from emotion, not logic, and in so doing you make the most spectacularly unfounded claims. You have no special moral prerogative or entitlement by virtue of your experiences; we have ALL had bad experiences in our lives. Those bad experiences do not obviate us from the basic human obligations of respect, reason, and courtesy.

Spy or egomaniac
len, you have to be joking.

No "spy" would exhibit the frenetic energy Van has demonstrated through this article's tenure. He responds to virtually every post, twisting statements, spinning like a hurricane, hurling accusations, denying, lying outright at times. I don't even want to think about the state of his monitor at this moment, it must need an hourly dousing with Lysol.

On the other hand, len, his behavior is not unusual for a gay activist. This is how they usually sound. I've been engaging these sorts for years now; Van is a little extreme (I emphasize A LITTLE) but he's not far out of the mainstream for his group.

And yes, ego issues are common among sex addicts, which homosexuals are. Narcissism is part of the syndrome.

The fact that he's not a good advertisement for gay rights, simply illustrates why it's been necessary for gay activists to lie to the American public about the gay lifestyle these past 30 years. If the public had an accurate picture, there would be no gay rights; the pathology would be obvious to the casual observer.

DocJ
You're absolutely right about the crux of this issue: intolerance towards religious beliefs that outline a firm, absolute right and wrong. After all, as the left can tell us, there's no such thing as "absolute Truth" - at least not if it contradicts their own opinions; the only correct answer is apparently to subscribe to their own "truth."

As I've read the comments the last few days on these articles, I've been wishing that someone would step forward who is willing to try and outline the position and arguments of Purdue or those professors in a logical, calm and rational way, rather than just flinging bitter personal attacks at all other posters. Does such a thing as rational thought exist in that world?

Ignore Van's posts
Someone in this thread said that if you have read Van's posts in the last three days that it is unnecessary to read any more of them. That's true. So unless you get your kicks in time wasting activities it would be more productive to just skip over his posts in this thread.

Also, by responding to him you are actually doing the rest of us a disservice by jamming the thread with the same stuff that has been hashed over in each of the commentaries on Dr. Adams first three parts of this series.

The essential problem to be discussed, in my humble opinion, is where Acadamecians are in this country today. The professors at Purdue reflect a leftist agenda, just as do the professors at Duke who signed that infamous letter in regards to the Lacrosse athletes falsely accused of rape. It is another example of a minority in society attempting to impose their will on the majority.

van...
should go away

The Bottomline is...
Homosexuals already have the same rights as heterosexuals. What they want is more rights and special treatment. They continue to pound the "I'm a victim" drum and will do so until NORMAL people get tired of the pounding (in their heads) and give up on trying to maintain a moral and prosperous society.