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Monday, February 19, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Fourth Grader Settles Gun Control Debate: Details at 11:00
by Mike Adams
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Despite a recent survey conducted by Dee Rowland, Chairwoman of the Gun Violence Prevention Center, I know that owning a gun is the best way to protect myself from criminal victimization. After all, Dee only surveyed one person – her nine year old grandson. I doubled her sample size by surveying two of my closest friends.

A friend I will call Steve – because that’s his real name – was recently a near-victim of road rage. Someone who perceived himself to have been cut off in traffic by Steve proceeded to follow him several miles to his home and then reach for the handle of the car door to yank him out. But the assault was interrupted when the fellow looked across the seat and saw a Glock 23, chambered in .40 caliber. He shouted “oh, that f***ing figures, can’t fight without a gun” as he ran back to his car, never to be seen again.

The guy went from zero to sixty in four point five seconds in a Subaru. The Guinness Book of World Records has been officially notified.

A friend I will call Barry – because that’s his real name – was recently a near-victim of a crack induced mugging. He had just withdrawn a large amount of money from an ATM and hopped back into his Mazda 626. A haggard looking crack addict – Barry assumed he was a drug addict because he was humming a tune by Whitney Houston, not by Merle Haggard – came running up to the door and tried to force his way into the car. Barry responded by letting him know his money was in a fanny pack, right next to his .45 Auto. After Barry looked down to secure his weapon, he looked up and saw the man running away.

The guy went 100 yards in about 8 seconds flat – give or take several seconds. The Guinness Book of World Records has been officially notified.

But, unfortunately, in the wake of the recent murderous rampage at Trolley Square, the folks at Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah are embarking on an anti-gun rampage that could soon be the envy of every Muslim who likes to kill innocent people at a shopping mall.

Steve Gunn, a member of the organization that relies heavily on the advice of nine-year-olds, says that whether you believe that “everyone” or “no one” should have a gun “depends on your perspective.” That’s exactly right, Steve. And since it appears that the angry Muslim’s crime spree was stopped by a man with a concealed weapons permit, it’s worth asking a couple of questions about “perspective.”

What do you suppose was the perspective of the Muslim murderer who went on that shooting spree in Utah? Does he favor concealed carry permits like the one that helped someone kill him?

And how about the people who died or had to rely on someone else to defend them from that gun-wielding member of the religion of peace and love, which is otherwise known as Islam? Do they favor concealed carry permits?

Since many of the potential members of our survey are dead, I guess we’ll have to give extra weight to the opinions of a nine year old – one who just happens to have a grandmother chairing the board of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah. In fairness, we’ll ask him whether a ban on guns includes a ban on Steve Gunn. Since our survey will be a small one, son, please remember that a whole lot ‘depends on your perspective.’

But lest the reader believe that I disparage the opinions of every board member of the aforementioned Utah gun control organization, let me introduce a statement by Gary Sackett who says “I’m not comfortable arming our entire country for protection – that’s a paranoid notion.”

I actually agree with Gary. Those in the gun control lobby who think we are trying to arm “our entire country” – including felons, illegal aliens, and mental patients – are indeed paranoid. But they always manage to win the argument as long as they are arguing against something we aren’t saying.

I actually agree with “Gun-control Gary” on something else. He says that “You can’t protect against every madman with a firearm or a hand grenade.” Aside from a) admitting that he only thinks you can get “a firearm or a hand grenade” out of the hands of sane man and, b) suggesting he will try to accomplish only this goal, there is one more problem. It’s the old Utopian notion that only perfect solutions, not trade-offs, are acceptable.

Imagine telling a rape victim – one who was previously denied a concealed carry permit – that she only had a twenty percent chance of stopping her attacker with a gun. Tell her you won’t settle for anything less than one hundred percent. But if you say this to five rape victims, make sure you don’t report the cumulative percentage. That might cause unnecessary emotional trauma – although I admit to being less than one hundred percent certain as of this writing.

“Gun-control Gary” Sackett also teaches us that homicide and suicide rates are lower in places like Japan where they have more restrictions on handguns. But he fails to tell us that less than forty percent of crimes are reported to the police agencies that are under no obligation to report crimes to the federal government, which does not include any federal crimes in its own reports. Are we to also conclude that there is no federal crime in America? Or should we just ask Martha Stewart instead? Never mind, I think she has a nine year old grandson.

Actually, we do learn something from studying our federal crime statistics; namely that they wildly underestimate the amount of crime in America. And we also learn that, despite their limitations, they are vastly superior to the statistics of virtually every other nation, including highly advanced societies like Zimbabwe and Castro Cuba.

That means we can’t make cross-cultural comparisons like the gun control lobby would lead us to believe. But, fortunately, we can compare our national statistics from one year to the next since they tend to have roughly the same level of error from one year to the next.

When we compare the 1950s to the early 21st Century we realize that the increase in per capita ownership of devices with transistors has been accompanied by an increase in property crime. And the correlation is probably a reflection of a causal relationship – this is because the prevalence of lighter and more portable valuables is more appealing to larcenists and burglars alike.

But there’s no need to fear that a group of people in the Gun Violence Prevention Center will form a sister group called the Transistor Crime Prevention Center. They don’t know that my choice to buy an item with a transistor is driving up the crime rate. In fact, the latest statistics show that Japan has both lower crime and more transistors per capita. If anything, they may start to lobby for concealed carry transistor permits in order to bring crime back down to 1950s levels.

When the public policy director for Gun Owners of Utah said that a concealed permit is something that every adult “needs to consider” he was right. We all need to consider (read: think seriously about) important issues in the 21st Century.

But Dee Rowland said that the assertion that we should “consider” – or think about the issue – is “absurd” adding that even her nine year old grandson asked rhetorically “how could that help?”

The next time you try to talk to a nine year old only to find he is opposed to serious thinking, just ask someone else. You could just survey a member of the gun control lobby or maybe even a Muslim in a shopping mall.

Just as long as someone else is doing your thinking - especially someone with a political agenda - everything will probably work out fine.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Notice
the fact that the assailant wasn't identified as a Muslim or that he was stopped by a citizen with a concealed carry permit by our "objective" MSM. That just wouldn't fit their agenda, which seems more interested in spin than reporting objective facts that don't fit their worldview.

I was very pleased that the incident
in Utah hadn't taken place in Texas, and that the gun wielding varmit wasn't an illegal alien.

And that the off duty cop hadn't shot the guy in the buttox!

The moral of the story is, when you shoot, shoot to kill.

The perp can't come back and sue you later.

Scottie: of course! Think the MSM
would do anything that might possibly confirm that the President is right?

The Left is desperate for power, and they would rather forfeit their character than stay in the shadows.

If you read other news.......
It was reported that the mall had signs posting the rules for mall behavior, #10 being no weapons allowed in the mall.

Dumb, Dumb, and Dumb. Like some sign is going to stop a homocidal killer. As if someone needs a permit to carry a gun anywhere in America outside a courthouse or airport security area. There are no barriers to bringing a gun into a mall or theatre or grocery store. Legal or not.

You are an idiot, certified stupid, to think a sign is going to keep a killer in check.

Is it such a surprise that the very "gun free zones" produce the worst of the mass killings? Honestly, they don't happen that often but they are very public and very violent, because the killers are seldomly confronted with armed civilians. And when they are, the press somehow misses it.

Look up John Lott under Google and check out his research. "More Guns, Less Crime" is just one of his books.

There is a goodly pile or reasons and experience that has lead to 48 of the fifty States giving some sort of Concealed Permits [CCW's] to law abiding citizens. I think it is about 43 of them make it mandatory if a "clean" citizen asks for a permit.

How is it that you can reasonably expect to be able to defend yourself and family while in your home, but that Right ends when you step out the front door?

As it was said: "an armed society is a polite society.' Amen to self defense!

STOP!
Or I'll say STOP again.

I'm wondering why
the MSM kinda ignored the Muslim angle...


Off Thread Shameless plug!!

My blog is updated with the latest on the F-22 Raptor at the Red Flag war excersises in Nevada! Iranian pilots flying outdated and under-maintained Soviet-era fighters beware...:-)

Guns for Nine Year Olds
I have to agree with her grandson, in his hands a gun probably would not have helped.

In the hands of my nine year old (she is grown up now), the gun would likely have stopped the murderer.

Ignorance abounds in organizations that include the words 'gun violence prevention' in their title.

A point concerning Japan. The vast majority of people in Japan will not cross against a red light. They tend to obey the law even when no one is watching. In this society, guns are not necessary, mostly. Most crime here is committed against Japanese by Americans and other foreigners.

How can I say this? I am currently living in Japan and have observed these things myself.

The Gungrabbers
have been emboldened by a Demo congress and are returning out of the woodwork. They are like a virus. You can stomp it flat and it will go into remission and wait for ideal conditions to return. It's another one of those things like AGW. You can show evidence from every instance of gun bans that show crime increasing after the ban they still blame guns for crime.

If everyone in the mall had been armed this p*ssant would not have gotten more than one or two people.

9 yr old gunners
When younger and living in Oregon i collected firearms, had a conceal carry permit, and was a single dad with 2 daughters. They both learned to shoot at 8 and 11. My oldest, the intelligent trouble maker began to become a little cavillier at dad's strict firing line saftey regime so on her 13th b'day she recieved a 6 inch S&W .357. Needless to say, this focused her thinking. I was amazed at her shooting ability and videoed it for analysis. Using a basic triangle position and relaxing with a grin the D**n thing recoiled back behind her head and dropped back for double and triple taps with amazing accuracy. Actually scared me as she spit out blow back and said "daddy i love my gun". yes, baby, those 6 inch .357s shoot as straight as any hand gun you can get out of the box.

A couple of years later talk radio was abuzz about the execution of Gary Gilmore who raped and killed a child and was executed by firing squad. Living in Eugene Oregon we listened as callers decried the cruelty. One called and wondered whether we would need to pay for the psychological help the executions would surely need in the futre. My precious little girl in the back seat pops off, "hell dad, i'll shoot him, i'll use my own ammo, and i won't need any damn counselor, that guy raped and killed a kid" Out of the mouths of babes such common sense sanity. Something gun control fools cannot seem to get their arms around.

For accuracy's sake
I must point out that while the off-duty Ogden cop may have had a Utah concealed pistol license, it wasn't required. Instead of mis-identifying him as "a man with a concealed weapons permit", you should just refer to him as "a man with a legally concealed handgun". The inaccuracy doesn't help maintain your reputation as a man who deals with facts.

Cop or John Q., the outcome was the same: good guys with guns stopped a bad guy who had a gun and murderous intent.

If you outlaw guns
I sternly believe anyone trying to disarm a law-abiding citizen of his/her Right to Bear is simply a criminal. Why else would you take away their basic right, if not to harm their well-being?

About those transistors...
there are actually people here in Kanukistan who advance the hypothesis that if only we don't own or carry in public anything that criminals (Victims of Exclusion is the name our Mayor prefers) might desire, then crime rates would go down. It is our fault, you see, for owning things that "the less fortunate" have been promised by irresponsible liberals without anybody telling them where to go and pick up their "entitlements"...

They also blame owners of expensive automobiles under the "attractive nuisance" law -- kiddies would not be tempted to steal your car, y'see, if you limited yourself to an ancient, sagging rustbucket.

Do you see the pattern here? If Mommy gives you everything you want, you won't do anything naughty. And if you ARE naughty, it's Mommy's fault because she didn't give you everything you wanted...

I'm with those who say "An armed society is a polite society." In fact, here in the GTA, the perception is the reality. On 9/11 my American sister was staying with me in an apartment building mainly tenanted by Muslims in full burqas and 'native dress'. Sis was terrified that they would come after us. I assured her that they would not; having lived among them for four years, I knew that they all assume that ALL Americans carry guns and aren't afraid to use them. They were terrified that WE would come after THEM. By the end of that day, there was no Native Dress to be seen in our building. Hypothesis proved.

Concealed Carry Permit
Just got mine. I hope I never have to use it. But, at least I will have a choice!

Reason we were to armed
The reason we have the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting or even protecting ourselves from a criminal.

Listen to what this woman says as she testifies before Congress.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=71YpogEUCDI

Reagan Revolutionary
One of the first things a dictator does is disarm the people. And so it is with socialism. The Demo/Libs know that they can never effectively install socialisim until the U.S. citizen is disarmed. So they will never stop trying until *they* are stopped.

Sorry, that didn't come out right
Clearly, I am still asleep. The title should have been "Reason we were to BE armed". Guns are useful for protection from every day criminals, but that is not the prime reason we were to be armed.

Children
Notice how the liberals mask their facist freedom destroying agenda underneath a facade of being "for the children."

There was a reason ...
...in the Old West they called guns"equalizers".They enabled a 90 pound woman to be the equal of a 275 pound man,if he is armed.If he is not armed,she is superior.This is still true.

SELECTIVE MISINTERPRETATION
Is the technique used by gun ban nuts to "prove" their case. Some questions: 1. Why do they call their organizations anti "gun violence?" Does that mean that they are unconcerned about violence done with knives, blunt objects or bare hands? 2. Does #1. indicate that they simply hate guns, period? 3. Gun ban nuts are fond of citing places like England and Japan. Are they aware that Japanese-Americans (who presumably have access to firearms) have a violence rate lower than native Japanese living in Japan? Moreover, guns are not "banned" in either Japan or England. An article I picked up on the internet on hunting in Japan indicated that there are lots of legal shotguns in Japan and that you can easily get them on the used-gun market. I can go on and on. 4. Mexico has severe gun restrictions, yet has a murder rate comparable to the U.S. etc etc.

Twice in my life, having a gun handy
Saved me from would be assailants.
Once a complete drunk who was behind the wheel of an ancient Chevy Truck decided to ram my Cadillac Seville because he thought I must be some stuck-up rich guy. I was not, it was my ex-wife's car. Fortunately, it had a hidy hole under the console where my .22 auto pistol fit nicely.
I know I wouldn't have killed him easily with a .22 auto, but seeing that barrel poited at his big ugly face stopped the rampage in it's tracks.
Another time, I was driving on a dark deserted stretch of highway in rural Mississippi. My car had blown a head gasket and was overheating about every 25 miles. I stopped in a 24hr quick mart and got some water for the radiator. I had to wait 20 minutes each time I stopped to let the stupid thing cool down. While waiting, a carload of drunk or high black men pulled up next to us. My ex was asleep in the passenger seat and they began looking in like they wanted to have some fun with her. I got out and got my .357 Magnum out of the trunk. MY BAD, it should have been under the seat. Anyway, upon seeing that I had Mr. Colt backing me up, the men got back into their piece of crap and left post-haste.
Anyone who tries to tell me guns don't deter crimes is full of CRAPPOLA! I KNOW FIRST HAND!!!

The problem
The problem is not too many weapons. The problem is too many sheeple. Our founders knew that the people were the final defense against a dictatorial government, but we, as a society, have increasingly accepted a nanny state dictatorship that increasingly asserts that we own nothing that is notgiven to us by them.

Anyone notice a pattern here?
Many times a crime that absolutely would happen if the "VICTIM" was unarmed did not happen because the NON-VICTIM was armed. No shots were fired in most cases. Just the fact that shots could be fired, and would be fired, stopped the perpetrator in his or her tracks. Guess what, these little near-miss incidents never make the papers and these would-be perps sometimes learn a lesson and stay out of Prison. I mean, if they run from a "would be" crime scene after seeing a big old Hog Leg pointed at their head, and never again try to rob someone, they have learned a valuable lesson and saved taxpayers thousands of dollars.

Didn't I
read that in countries where gun control is the law, home invasions are epidemic? I am a woman alone, no longer young enough to fight off any intruder, a gun is my only hope.

TAP
Nothing wrong with a .22 for protection. I've got a .44 and a 9 mm, but it's my .22 I carry most often.

Even
Fox didn't make the fact that that kid was a Muslim a point in their reporting.
Sad to see even Fox caving to p.c.

Liberty
Your link is spot on. I was arguing with a lib about the fact that the writers of the second amendment could not possibly have forseen automatic weapons. He felt certain that because of that, the 2nd should be changed. I told him that the weapon the writers may or may not have envisioned was irrelavant. What the writers could foresee was a tyrannical government from which the citizens would have to protect themselves. When the government cannot or will not remove criminals from the streets, law-abiding citizens have the obligation to pick up the slack.

Japan is a wonderful comparison
Japan is an excellent choice for comparison to the US when it comes to crime. Pappy Michael if you would help me with this I understand the Yakuza operates openly there and their extortion is considered almosty like a tax, while I disagree with that on a moral basis I noticed during the Kobe earthquake the Yakuza was quicker with relief than the government. Yakuza also keep offices with signs on the doors,quick comparison go on down to 5th Ave to the Gambino family offices to arrange a hit... apples and oranges

Japan
Not long ago, I had cause to look up the actual rates of homicide and suicide in Japan.

According to Answers.com, in 2002, the last year for which figures are available, Japan had (nationwide) 1,235 homicides. That's less than the ten largest cities in the U.S., combined.

On the other hand, in the same period, the country had 53,000+ suicides. Once you figure it out relative to the respective populations of the United States and Japan, Japan had a per capita suicide rate nearly identical to that of the United States (about 1.24 per 100,000 population).

Now you might argue that there are fewer murders in Japan due to the lack of firearms in civilian hands. Or even in police hands. (The last time I looked, the police over there were still carrying .32 ACP pocket autos as uniformed service sidearms.) But the similarity in suicide rates tends to indicate that the dynamic is something else entirely, as the lack of firearms does not seem to inconvenience those seeking to end their own lives.

Just something to think about.


cheers

eon

How would that help
Is easily explained to a nine year old. Given the state of things today, and the fact that we have a congress bent on undermining our strength at every turn, we might very reasonably see a time when defense is much more personal, when terrorists are not somewhere else--when they're in our front yards. Who would you want for a neighbor then: the anti-gun guy, or the NRA member?
I've noticed that nobody has a bumper sticker or a house sign that says "I don't believe in guns".
Like the anti-war crowd, they're content to let others do the heavy lifting, enjoying the freedoms and security that others secure for them.

Eon
If I lived in a paper room, slept and ate on the floor, had to sqeeze onto a commuter train for 2 hours a day, and never had any hope of any lasting privacy - I might kill myself, too.

But there's things worse than being Japanese. Could be French.

The womens issues in gun control
As a minority person (female and Jewish) in this state (and having lived in several other states), I have questions for those who oppose guns at all and want more gun controls:

In 1978, two Hispanic ("minority") convicts escaped from the Central New Mexico Correctional Facility at Los Lunas. These convicts quietly got into the trailer, found some steak knives, and proceeded to brutally murder the innocent Hispanic couple living there as they slept! Should we declare all steak knife manufacturers as "villains" because of the murders in 1978? Should these manufacturers be guilty forever? Should people like you be "suspicious" of crimes because you have steak knives in your houses that can be used very easily for murders?

Also, just imagine that I, as a parent, could sue the living daylights out of cities and school districts if my child were hit and killed by rocks or pieces of wood (branches) lying in schools yard that other kids used to kill my child. Would you love that? We better make all school yards free of rocks and sticks and metals, and soon!

Suppose some kids stole your car and killed a member of my family. Why don't I sue you for negligence and ruin your life? Why don't we implement a government like in the book, "1984," and control peoples' lives? Or do we honor good reason and directly hold guilty those who have directly responsibility for crime?

I have lived in the low-income areas of big cities. Many of us who have been in these hard core areas found that there are gangs who have other ways of quickly and efficiently killing people without guns, even at a distance. It was amazing (and also saddening) to see what they could do with various items and how creative these people were in killing others, even without guns.

I won't give details here, but I assure that taking away guns may slow murders for some people for awhile, but ultimately people, especially gangs members, will have the means to kill people in other means.

These gangs, especially the Los Angeles gangs (yes, including the white gangs and gangs of different races), have spread their membership and practices to many other areas in the USA. I was in Las Vegas, Nevada, during the riots of 1992. Both my black friends in the riot areas who saw the rioting and the police reported that most of the riot instigators in LV were members of the LA black gangs (and a few others at time) and that they were quite "efficient" in their abilities, such as blowing up things without themselves being injured, or killing people at a distance without guns.

There has been the problem of illegal guns and other weapons being smuggled in from Syria and China (ah, yes, a "Favored Nation") through the West Coast, for example. Who is suggesting that we deal properly with China over this issue?

Also in Nevada, there was a group of people who visited the prisoners on weekends at the Jean and Indian Springs prison facilities. This group was called "Friends Outside." What they heard amazed both them and me. First, many prisoners (no matter what their race) actually did not mind going to prison since it provided free food and shelter for them. Second, many gang members were still able to direct their gangs or participate in certain activities. Third, most of the criminals who committed murders had no respect for the lives of other people. They would just as soon as go and kill someone else, and had various means to do it without guns. They also had no fear of any punishment, since most would never experience the death penalty.

With a society of criminal thinking like that, it is obvious that it is the core issue is really the criminal and the form of punishment.

The issue still remains: Who is responsible? Do we still blame the people who are directly responsible for committing these crimes or try to go on a social agenda blitz and blame others, such as the gun manufacturers? Also, what to do you do with a nation like China? Re-elect our good friends Bill Clinton and Al Gore and have them send them more weapons systems, like the rockets and satellites (1994-1996) and NUCLEAR REACTORS (1999) sent to China recently (so they can nuke our cities easier)?

What about the thousands of people in our streets and cities who are killed and injured by knives and other weapons each year? Why are those deaths and weapons not mentioned much?

By the way, you may accuse the NRA of doing the thinking for me, but I thought of this long time ago without them before I even heard of the NRA.
1

Goshawk
Good comments, and thanks for stopping by my blog! :-)

Did anyone catch the story in American Rifleman this past year about DEA agents harrasing female gun buyers at gun shows in Virginia?? I'll be d*mned if I put up with some half baked, goose stepping idiot denying me the right to buy a firearm for hunting, recreation or defending my family because I am a FEMALE!!

"This house is a gun free zone"
We should have signs made up stating this and pass them out freely to the anti gun crowd so they can publicly proclaim their commitment to disarming America.

Pappy Michael writes:
"A point concerning Japan. The vast majority of people in Japan will not cross against a red light. They tend to obey the law even when no one is watching. In this society, guns are not necessary, mostly. Most crime here is committed against Japanese by Americans and other foreigners.

How can I say this? I am currently living in Japan and have observed these things myself."

Exactly. One other point, Japan is mostly a homogenous society, all the same type of people thinking mostly alike, much as we used to be. One culture, mostly ingrained from childhood to be courteous to each other. You absolutely cannot compare the U.S. to any other country on earth. It's easy to call America racist from the comfort of your homogenous society.

As for guns, I don't think I've said this here before, but I hate them. However, I fully support the right of ALL Americans to carry firearms (minus convicts and lunatics, of course). And if all of my neighbors are armed, so much the better.

Maybe the gun control nuts could make a better case for themselves if they came out with a report on Violent Crime: Armed middle class civilian on Armed middle class civilian. Heck they could save a lot of paper on that. Maybe a flier at most?

Cafrench
"There has been the problem of illegal guns and other weapons being smuggled in from Syria and China (ah, yes, a "Favored Nation") through the West Coast, for example. Who is suggesting that we deal properly with China over this issue?"

Good point. I remember back in the mid 90's that a a Chinese freighter was searched in the Port of San Fransico, and was caught smuggling 20,000 Kalashnikov rifles! That's enough for an infantry division.

Marc of CA thinks signs do not influence
Well, you are only partly right. Some signs do work, like “this home protected by firearms”, or “I shoot to kill” or “make my day (with the silhouette of my H&K USP), or the more subtle “2 to the body, 1 to the head.” There is another sign I have wanted to experiment with, but I haven’t found any takers. It reads “This Home has no firearms.” I wonder why my anti-gun friends will not post that in their yard.

Japan
Japan is a homogeneous society. While we may applaud our diversity because we are expected to; diversity does tend to breed paranoia, hostility, and crime. Comparing crime rates in Japan and the US is like comparing the feeding habits of a Piranha with a Guppy. There are always too many variables to make international comparisons. International comparisons are the shield "wacko" advocates hide behind to obscure available empirical data that defines the local or National reality.

boomer
Good idea. :) Then the criminals would know who to rob. They wouldn't even have to steal any guns to do it.

celtic-dragon
While I realize that your post was, in all likelihood, made somewhat tongue-in-cheek...

... I don't wonder at all why the MSM failed to report the Muslim nature of the gunman. They are absolutely, 100% invested in denying the truth of Islamic radicalism as a threat to our freedoms, they are 100% invested in the P.C. notion that Islam is a "religion of peace," and they are 100% invested in defending the notion that there is no pervasive threat to Liberty from adherents to the prophet Mohammed.

And while I am sick of their lies, half-truths, and misdirections, I am even more sick of the inability of the average "man on the street" to see - or at least, to care about - their pattern of prevarication.

WAKE UP, AMERICA! LEFTISTS LIE!

Liberty
Thank you for that link. While you and I do not see eye to eye on everything, that video, that woman's testimony, was absolutely fabulous. And I love that she said those last few words to all of those legislators; they needed to hear it.

Gun Ban for Leftists
Seriously - the left has given us a dual legality with affirmative retribution and why not extend it. Anyone registered as a Republican can have a gun, anyone else not.

They are happy, THEY don't have guns, and we can all sing Kumbyah around a potted plant.

Makes more sense than their proposals...

Where's Kimberly?
Hey Kim... Would you please weigh in here? This topic is begging for your perspecitve!

Oops!
Dyslexia!

Liberty, Great Link
That woman's parents might still be alive if someone in that restaurant had a concealed weapon permit and shot the shooter early on.
It is when good people have no guns, and can do nothing, that evil people with guns can do anything to them. "More Uneccessary Victims"

Ignorance Kills

I once ran training session with BB guns for Cub Scouts. We followed the format used by the military of firing lines, strict disipline on direction of barrels. This was after a demonstration with eggs on top of the hay bales.
We pointed the BB gun at the egg, pulled the trigger and watched as the yolk and white ran down the bale. Then we asked the scouts "Which is harder ? The eggshell or your eye?" Point made. Our approach was approved even by parents who did not own weapons because they realized their kids could visit households that had weapons and that if their kid knew the proper behavior around guns, they were less likely do do something stupid.


Not many years later, an actor committed suicide by pointing an "unloaded" gun at his head and pulling the trigger. Ignorance killed him.

i am getting a gun
hopefully before i join the army but not real sure anyone have any suggestions for a first time buyer?

NO ANSWER EVER
I always ask a gungrabber:
when a criminal puts a gun in your face, will you:
1. say: "excuse me, mr. criminal, le le le le
le le me call the police.."
2. say: "rape my spouse and live me alone!"
3. poo in your underwear?

Imagine, every time, that "intelligent" person starts blabbing like a total loooooon.

I agree Mike
I agree Mike, people should be able to arm themselves to protect themselves. The big issue is not the people's ownership of guns but the government's ownership of guns.

A tyrany is when the government is better armed then the people, and what we have is a tyranny of stupidity. It could easily become a tyranny of dictatorship.

As we saw on 9/11, the government cannot protect the people from an attack. The larger the government, the more easily it presents itself as a target. (Just as sending 20,000 more troops to Iraq just makes soldiers a more plentiful target, like a population boom of deer during hunting season.)

And, in Orwellian fashion, both the Left and the Right want more police. We really are a small-minded and frightened people whoc want a "big brother" to protect us. While we may have gotten rid of the King, our blind trust in authority figures endures.

You may enjoy my essay A Liberal Defense of the Second Amendment. Of course, you may not like my description of Lincoln. He didn't free the slaves, he made everyone a slave of the central government. And the people have been over-powered by government ever since.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Gun Control
I live in a concealed carry state(ohio) and my new years resolution is to exercise my right to bear arms; if you have a problem with guns, don't get one.

The Framers Intent
The intent of the framers in the 2nd amendment was for citizens to have the same weapons as the government. At the time of the signing and ratification of the constitution the citizens did have the same weapons. In fact, some citizens owned cannon. It wasn't until Al Capone came along that the gungrabbers decided that there was no valid reason for citizens to own a machine gun, but at the same time they understood that an outright ban would probably be held unconstitutional. So what they did was make you get a "special license" and pay a transfer tax. Over the years that special license became allmost impossible to get until now where the last tinkering essentially elliminated it.

Wake up America, you are losing your rights one at a time and it isn't the Patriot Act doing it.

Marc in CA
Nobody expects the mall sign to prevent gun violence, per se; it's there to give mall security personnel the legal right to arrest and remove individuals who happen to carry guns onto the premises.

I understand that stupidity does abound (like the billboard, "ILLITERATE? Call 1-800-CAN-READ!") but there's actually a valid reason in law for posting the "no weapons" regulation.

inkling_revival
oh yeah give the usually unarmed mall rent-a-cops the legal right to remove a man with a gun which most likely ends up with them getting shot firsts.

chr335
My suggestions for you as a first-time gun buyer.

If you are unfamiliar with guns, your best bet is probably a .22. That's where everyone starts, and for a reason. It's a great way to become comfy with guns.

If you're a bit more experienced, I'd suggest a .357 revolver. They're simple, no safeties to forget to disable, won't ever jam, and can shoot both .357 and .38 Special ammo (the latter for milder recoil).

I'm assuming you're talking handgun.

People vs Deer
An ardent liberal acquaintance who picks up on any liberal 'idea of the moment' has said that 'hunting is cruel' and that it would stop if the deer were armed. However, she also believes 'ordinary' people should not be allowed to have guns.

The last time she joined in a conversation I got her to expound first one position then the other but did not tie them together until I asked, "So, you believe deer should be allowed to defend themselves with guns but people should not?" What I got was first a blank look, then a red face, then a glare and her comment was "You obviously don't understand what the hell I'm talking about" followed by a rapid departure.

I guess we find that quite often with liberal 'positions' or 'opinions'. Dr. Adams has pointed out numerous anomalies of 'liberal think' and policy in his columns. When 'diversity' means inclusion only if you agree with us and 'free speech' means essentially the same thing -- you must be 'against' what they are against and their 'solutions' are 'we must stop this or that' but never look at the consequences and the big picture.

Of course, 'right to carry' permits in many states are so restrictive that the use of or even 'brandishing' a firearm to stop a crime can be even more devastating to the user than to the intentional lawbreaker. Remember the illegal aliens who were 'scared' by an American citizen? The courts awarded the 'scared' illegal alien, trespassing lawbreakers the guys home.

Frankly, I think we should be allowed to 'scare' lawbreakers. They should be so 'scared' they choose NOT to break the law. Clearly, "The law" itself does not seem to 'scare' them anymore than a sign that does not include implied deadly consequences.

Just think of the incidents cited in these posts. When faced with being shot, the perps had a 'change of heart'. The muzzle of a .22 looks like a cannon when one comes face to muzzle with one.

"Fear" is a great weapon. Not 'fear of being caught' but fear of being appropriately punished or shot. If I am not breaking any law, why should I, or anyone, be scared to walk down a street or even go to sleep on my own property? Why should anyone except deliberate lawbreakers be 'scared'? Why should illegal aliens not be 'scared'?

This article and comments
Bravo for this article and most of the comments. But we have to be EVER vigilant to those who want to disarm us. Not to long ago a certain presidential candidate was asked if her husband was going to help her in her campaign, she said "Yes." "BUT I'LL MAKE ALL OF THE DECISIONS>"
Pay VERY special heed to that statement because that's what Hillary Clinton wants, to make all the decisions. Elect her president and the US will fall in history just like Nazi Germany. What did Adolf Hitler say over 70 years ago? "The FIRST step in enslaving a free people is to TAKE AWAY their right to keep and bear arms!"
The last Clinton administration did more damage to dirty and discredit law abiding gun owners than any previously in our country's history.
If Hillary is elceted the first thing that will fall is the Second amendment. Her ilk of people have shown in the past they are interested in one thing and one thing only, POWER, their way or not at all. It will be the US the way THEY WANT IT! STOP,STOP,STOP,STOP Hillary Mlinton from reaching the White House. STOP these lily livered congressman and senators from taking anymore of our guns away! STOP Mayor Micheal Bloomberg in his tracks and discredit him. The same with Mayor Ray Nagin. He should be in jail for what he had law enforcement do in New Orleans.
These people will continue to stomp and walk on all our rights until we wake up and throw them out of public life! Wake up America before its TOO LATE!

Sorry slip there
That should read Hillary Clinton not Hillary Mlinton! Finger slipped on the keyboard.

Common Sense and Gun Control...
should both be legislated in equal measure. For instance, if a law prohibiting a form of gun possession is passed, there should be a law passed mandating each citizen must display common sense at all times. Penalties should be similiar also. Wait, Wait, hold the presses!

How about this instead? Have no gun possession laws but rather have common sense legislation. So, if someone shoots someone in self-defense of themselves or others, its okay. Wait, wait, that won't work. Know why? Because legislators don't have common sense when it comes to protecting their constituents. (Think Border Patrol officers being unjustly prosecuted).

Okay then, how about this instead? Anti-hysteria laws. Make it against the law to act like an idiot each time a gun is discharged. No, darnit, that won't work either. Heck, half or more of the free-loading anti-gun advocates would be out of work and potentially shooting themselves.

I have to admit, I don't seem to be any smarter than anyone else when it comes to making laws about guns. But somehow, that mention of common sense keeps appealing to me. ( And I have to admit also, the prospect of anti-gun advocates shooting themselves isn't that distasteful either).

Oh, shut up, you were thinking the same thing!


TAP001
I got out and got my .357 Magnum out of the trunk. MY BAD, it should have been under the seat.


Thanks! Despite the severity of the situation, I actually threw my head back and laughed out loud!!! Happy to see that you still have a great sense of humor amidst the situation you were describing....

Morally Neutral
Guns make no value judgements. That responsibility falls to the individual wielding the gun. As long as the immoral continue to attempt to victimize the moral, it logically follows that the moral have access to firearms to either serve as deterrent or as a means to intervene.

And as for the morally ascendant, as has been suggested, let them declare their ascendancy by posting signs on their property, vehicles, or whatever declaring how ultimately virtuous they truly are. As for the rest of us, we will keep and bear.

Maybe someone can explain to Rudy that the Right to Protect one's family, property, or person transcends all. Still, given the fact that he doesn't understand that the most innocent and helpless among us deserve some consideration, I'm not to hopeful.

I currently live in Hawaii...
...a overwhelmingly liberal state that makes it nearly impossible to obtain a concealed carry license (you must prove that someone is stalking you with intent to kill you... Hawaii has never issued a CC license, according to the police officer I talked to when I attempted to get one myself). Every time I hear a report on the news about a house that was robbed, or a murder that was committed (there have been quite a few since I was stationed here 18 months ago), I wonder if it would have happened had that criminal thought that whoever he was about to attack could possibly be packing heat...

Goshawk
I found it.

I think this actually means disarmament of our military... But the wording carries the same message. When you no longer have a gun, we can easily destroy the United States and the Constitution. I've read the Second Amendment quite thoroughly, anti-gun laws are anti-American to me.

(Found in the Communist Manifest 1963)
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

We need more gun control.
Specifically, no armed bodyguards for politicians in gun-ban locales. If statutes and ordinances protect us, they'll protect them. (author not known.)

EdWestT
Good idea. :-)

Reagan Revolutionary
(Found in the Communist Manifest 1963)
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.


Very, very interesting. THAT should be embroidered on a pillow. It is the same thing that Planned Parenthood did at their first meeting in California--they asked how they would get America to believe that the fetus wasn't really "life."

Once you get into the unconsciousness of the people--you can get them to defend their position even when the truth comes out. (e.g. even though everyone is now even willing to call the "clump of cells" a "baby," abortion has been so broadly accepted as "ho hum" that the truth no longer matters).

It is true that those opposed to guns see themselves as "morally superior" to gun owners. Now if only they can get their message out there that only "hillbillies" carry guns, they can keep people believing they are morally superior even as they are being stripped of every other right.

Vic
I agree with what you said about the 2nd amendment and the reason we were to bear arms; however, I respectfully ask you to look more closely at the Patriot Act.

truetolife and Reagan Revolutionary
Good points. You all remember good 'ol Dept. of State Publication 7272 don't you?

Freedom from War, The United States Program for General and Complete Disarmament in a Peaceful World

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

DEPARTMENT OF STATE PUBLICATION 7277
Disarmament Series 5
Released September 1961

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/WORLDNEWSSTAND/7277.htm

2nd amendment
with the problem of the Islamo Fascists that is at our door step, I believe that the Federal Government should require that all QUALIFIED Adults be required to have concealed Carry Permits. I have had one since I was robbed in my business in 1960, I thank God I have not had to use it, but i have it in case I do. I carry a 1911 COLT 45 and I do know that it will stop what ever it hits. Keep up the good work Dr.
Adams

Guns are like seatbelts
This is a great illustration. Does someone who has a CCW want to have a problem? Absolutely not! Most people I know (myself included) don't ever want to have to use their concealed carry weapon, but it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!

Oleg Volk has a great t-shirt that illustrates the point:

http://images.libertyoutlet.com/samples/s-safedrive.jpg

Somethings missing
Where are all of the posts from the anti-gun folks? Surely they have something to say, or not.

I read the gunman was Muslim last week
I'm not sure where I read it, but as soon as I saw his name, I know he was from Bosnia, and most likely a Muslim. (I am of Serbian extraction and my grandfather was a Serb from Bosnia). Of course, the Serbs were blamed for the killing in the article I read because the boy fled his country. He was apparently in Srebrenica two years after the slaughter there, but his aunt and another gentleman blamed his being a victim of the war. How that explains his taking his anger out at people in a mall is beyond me, but his family said it was because of his experiences in the war as a young child.

chr335
Two suggestions- go to a gun shop at a non-busy time and talk to the owner. Avoid fancy high-end guns with lots of bells and whistles. Consider a 38 revolver or a 357 if you want more power. A revolver is less likely to jam than a 9mm or 380 auto and, if it does jam, you just go on to the next cylinder instead of clearing and reloading. The other idea would be to email Dr. Adams directly, he answers his email and will have a few top suggestions for you. Whichever you choose, please make sure you practice a lot and know your local laws.
Steve- I could not agree more with your post. The biggest loser in the Civil War was the individual state. That war gave us the strong central govt that we have today. To be totally honest he did free some of the slaves, but in a brilliant political move to keep France and England out of the war. In reality he disliked the Africans, would have ensured slavery forever to preserve the Union, and would have liked to send all the Africans back to Africa.
As for the article, I have a CCP but have never carried. I am starting to believe it is my responsibility to do so.

TAP re: Anyone notice a patterh here?
"I mean, if they run from a "would be" crime scene after seeing a big old Hog Leg pointed at their head, and never again try to rob someone, they have learned a valuable lesson and saved taxpayers thousands of dollars."

Absolutely! However, those who aspire to be dictators don't want anyone to know that. No dictator has ever done anything meaningful to eracicate crime and no dictator ever will. Dictators NEED crime to continue and escalate in order to have an excuse to impose more restrictions on the people. In fact, sensational violent crime sprees have been staged by the secret police to provide such an excuse (the USSR and Third Reich come to mind). Under Stalin the USSR made self defense a crime while giving criminals little more than a slap on the wrist (as long as the perp didn't steal from a government warehouse). Sound familiar? It should; American officials have been copying that policy ever since.

Utah mall shooter
An informal survey of mine (i.e.every street cop I talked to)showed 100% in favor of armed law-abiding citizens. Said one respondent: "We can't be everywhere, you have to be ready to defend yourself, and we need all the help we can get." Note: you won't get this from political level police, they toe the too-many-guns line. Find a local International Defensive Pistol Assoc. (IDPA)and get some training. Per Robert A. Heinlein: "An armed society is a polite society".

Mr. Right
"He felt certain that because of that, the 2nd should be changed. I told him that the weapon the writers may or may not have envisioned was irrelavant. What the writers could foresee was a tyrannical government from which the citizens would have to protect themselves."

That lib's "thinking" was something that Judge Donald Martin (no relation to the cartoonist AFAIK) warned about back in the 60's; government could limit civilians to a Brown Bess musket, about 4 feet long and weighing 12 pounds, outlawing other guns. The citizen could keep the musket but subject to further regulation (e.g. laws declaring black powder to be a "fireworks item" and banning it).




My 2 cents...
From what I have been seeing from Washington, we have 9 year olds making our laws and decisions now!!

Arm yourself. Protect yourself.

But if you see someone in trouble, as them if they are a liberal. If yes, WALK AWAY. If not, protect them with your gun. We need to remove the liberal disease from our gene pool!

I Believe
I believe in the 2nd amendment. All of you are entitled to carry whatever you want, publicly or concealed, as am I. The unstated corollary is personal responsibility. If you shoot someone, it is no accident and claiming such will not be an excuse. If you shoot and kill an innocent person, an eye for an eye mentality should apply. Kids will have accidents; I have a rope and a nearby light pole for all others.

cafrench
"Also, just imagine that I, as a parent, could sue the living daylights out of cities and school districts if my child were hit and killed by rocks or pieces of wood (branches) lying in schools yard that other kids used to kill my child."

There was a case in KY some years ago in which a child was stung by a hornet on school grounds. The plaintiffs' attorney argued, in essence, that "They were on school property so they were YOUR hornets!" Fortunately it was thrown out.

Small but Large results
It always amazes me how a "small" gun can equalize even a "Large" anger. My Glock .40 is always with me and it has caused several crimes to go "unreported" because they never were completed. Who knows maybe even the Glock changed the heart of the would be perp. So maybe we should have guns for everyone (clean) and watch the crime go down like it did in Texas.

I have the sign thing down.
I understand the legal reasons for signage however my point was that most everytime there are these public shootings they are in "gun-free" killing zones. Like what safer place to run amock than the Amish schoolhouse??

And a sign at a mall or grocery is often ignored by the law-abiding and I never hear of a captured killer confess a sign turned him away.

But on the lighter side of a serious issue I will admit that 4 years ago I had a dozen signs made myself. They were Christmas presents to some of my closer friends.

Made to look like the regulation rectangular "No Parking" sign, red lettering on a white field, it read;

NO TRESPASSING
Violators will be shot.
Survivors will be shot again.

I got a lot of comments about those at the sign shop! And no, I did not risk display in public.

.22 or not...
BrianR and Chr335
Just a word of caution about a .22: While it has "scare value," a .22 bullet probably won't stop anybody in their tracks; however, it will bounce around a body cavity destroying every organ slowly. A .22 bullet can also be transported by a blood vessel to a point where it can kill; again, very slowly.

Lost my 19-year-old to a .22 automatic rifle, accidentally discharged. Tiny bullet hole, no blood, died three days later. But I still wouldn't take anybody's gun away.

Re: Jeb
"But we have to be EVER vigilant to those who want to disarm us."

That's for sure. And don't wait for gun prohibition and confiscation to be written into law. Case in point: when CA passed their "assault weapons" ban one of the pieces specifically exempted was/is the Ruger 10/22 rifle. However, a gun owner was showing his to a friend -- in his own home -- and two LAPD officers entered (method is not clear now) and confiscated the rifle WITHOUT AUTHORITY TO DO SO. When the owner protested, pointing out that the rifle is not covered by the law, they replied, "So sue us."

Also beware of gun "buy-back" schemes where there is registration. Registration lists are supposed to be available to anyone (being public documents) or they can be obtained by hackers. This way burglars can be encouraged to break into homes where guns are known to exist and the "buy-back operator pays a bounty for each gun stolen and turned in for a 100% profit.

Hitler and Gun Control
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" – Adolph Hitler [1935] The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany.


chr335
You can't go wrong with a double action revolver of any reasonable caliber (I would say .38 or up), a quality holster and lots of practice. You shouldn't only practice shooting but also presenting (drawing) your weapon smoothly and safely (start off slow and master it). Don't worry about being the fastest gun in the west but be sure that if you ever do have to pull it, you get it out safely and relatively quickly. I also recomend thinking about how you would "clear" you house if you think someone is inside (where you would tell your family to go and stay and then plan out your room by room search etc.) and practice this a lot (with an unloaded gun preferably) and do it in the dark too (but keep a small flashlight with your gun). Practice Practice Practice. A well-trained shooter coming up against a thug with a gun he may be unfamiliar with is never a fair fight - stack the odds in your favor.

Ok, off my soapbox...

Nam65
Not to be pedantic, but the phrase you are referring to is:

God created men; Colonel Colt made them equal.


Kennesaw, GA
By most people's standards, Kennesaw, GA could be considered as "any town" USA.. It's got a population of about 32,000 people with the vast majority being Hard-Working, honest US citizens.. Like most cities, Kennesaw enjoys a diverse population (about 50% white, 20% African-American, 10% Latino, 10% Asian and 10% other) Yes, a typical American city.... What is unusual about Kennesaw, GA is it's crime rate... Kennesaw enjoys a crime rate that is about 65% BELOW the national average for comparitivly sized US cities... Basicly, the crime statistics in Kennesaw are negligible, because there is no crime in Kennesaw, GA... But it wasn't always this way.. Prior to 1982, the Kennesaw crime rate was about 15% ABOVE the national average !!
What exactly was it that happened in 1982 to turn these numbers around ? Quite simple - in 1982, Kennesaw adopted a city ordinence that states "The head of every household (with some exceptions) WILL keep at least one serviceable firearm on his/her property at all times"... The facts and figures are there to see for anyone who
cares to look... Will the gun-grabbers ever get a clue ? Will the gun-control freaks ever admit that they are wrong ? Somehow, I doubt it..

Even better without a bullet....
> Packrat writes: Ignorance Kills

> Not many years later, an actor committed
> suicide by pointing an "unloaded" gun at
> his head and pulling the trigger.
> Ignorance killed him.

Even better was the actor in the '80s who pointed a stage pistol (with a blank) at his head and pulled the trigger -- and the blast wave killed him dead.

Teach children safely to use guns and many of these accidents won't happen. Ever...

czarownica
posted (about .22 caliber bullets), "it will bounce around a body cavity destroying every organ slowly."


Huh? When a bullet (any bullet) enters a body, it travels in a straight line unless it hits a bone and is deflected. It (a .22) doesn't have the force to "travel around" and "slowly" destroy organs (whatever that means).

F=M x A, an oldy but goody. It can reveal the raw power of a bullet hitting a body. .22's are way down the list. While they can be lethal, they aren't the most effective.

.357 magnum/.44 magnum/.45 are common and reliable, insofar as efficacy goes. They will drop a bad guy a lot quicker than "slowly destroying his organs".

cumulative percentages
I know this is kind of nit picky, but if a woman's firearm prevents a rape 20% of the time, the cumulative percentage is not 100% for five women. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it goes:

1 - 0.8^5 = 67.232%

Meaning that the probability that each woman will get raped is 80%, so the probability that five women will get raped in a row is 0.8^5 = 0.32768. The probability that the firearm will prevent at least one rape is 1 - .32768 = 67.232%.

A criminology professor should know this.

The NY and CA libs don't like...
...what they don't understand. This is best summed up by Aaron Sorkin (who is quite the lib himself, but wrote a great Republican character in Ainsley Hayes on The West Wing).

(Talking to staff in the Democratic White House) "Your gun control position doesn't have anything to do with public safety. And, it's certainly not about personal freedom. It's about - you don't like the people who do like guns. You don't like the people. Think about this the next time you make a joke about the South."

How many recent quotes by politicians have shown the Liberal's disdain for the South and the people who live there?

The Colonel
"I also recomend thinking about how you would "clear" you house if you think someone is inside (where you would tell your family to go and stay and then plan out your room by room search etc.) and practice this a lot (with an unloaded gun preferably) and do it in the dark too (but keep a small flashlight with your gun)."

PMFJI on this but I have tended to rely on the advice of Massad Ayoob in the event that someone would break into my home; he has advised using the "Alamo" type defense -- get behind hard cover and let the perp come to you -- because trying to clear the house yourself can get you killed.

Regarding Hitler's Weapons Act, that was enacted in 1938; an Army officer named Thomas Dodd got himself a copy and brought it back after the war, had it translated and, when he was in the Senate, wrote it into US law with a few minor alterations. So the 1968 Gun Control Act was originally in German.


Safe!
My father was a police officer who carried a concealed weapon EVERY SINGLE TIME he was out in public. I knew it and never felt so safe in my life as when I was with my dad. This was back in the '60s.

And from the time we were able to understand we knew that you NEVER touched Dad's gun. EVER. So even with three kids in the house, we learned respect for the weapon and what it could do.

I don't think it ever occurred to my Dad to teach us girls to shoot. It never occurred to me to want to learn.

Now I'm nearly fifty and I think it might be a good time to start....lord knows it's never too late, so I'm reading these posts on how to start with much interest.....

Cad Man - Self-defense
With liberal judges, I would suggest that homeowners stick with the "Alamo" type defense.

Actively seeking an intruder while carrying a weapon may result in a liberal judge (many of whom believe the concept of private property to be passe) to find you guilty of murder. Letting the intruder come to you will strengthen your case of self-defense.

I know it's sad, but I'm afraid it is better to be safe than sorry. You can't protect your family from jail.

MORE FACTS FOR GUN BAN KOOKS
Ted Kennedy's bodyguards were caught with two submachineguns (illegal) is "gun control" only for some folks?
As for the "Founder's Intent" Ball point pens, photographs, high speed printing- did not exist when the Constitution was written either
I have made my point about Japan-the fact stands that Japanese Americans (who can presumably buy guns like any other American) commit crimes at lower rate than native Japanese living in Japan
Shotguns are not "banned" in Japan-there are some 300,000 legal shotguns in Japan. Moreover-the only difference between a "nice" shotgun and an "evil" handgun is a hacksaw

Add on to Alamo defense (In Home)

Suggest using 12 or 20 Gauge shotgun with OO shot. Only reqires one ashot and there is little worry about stray pellets getting outside the house unlike a rifle or high powered pistol

Most of you guys seem to have
an elevated theory of the stopping power of house walls. Interior walls are nothing more than gypsum and will not stop much of anything. Exterior walls in most houses have 1/2" thickness plywood with a layer of siding over it (3/8"). 00 buckshot at interior distances will whistle through this like butter. Brick walls will stop 00 buckshot, but standard siding will not. Once outside the house, 00 buckshot will continue at lethal velocity for 50 yards.

This is still better than rifles and 357's though. The best thing for interior defense is 2 or 4 shot, either is lethal at the distance involved and will rapidly slow outside the house.

To SCChockeyfan
I gather the SC in front of your name means "South Carolina". If so you don't have anything to worry about. If they are in your house in this State you can pretty much do anything you want. As a cop told me once though, make sure they fall "in the house".

Vic
Thanks for bringing me up to date.
I appreciate the correction.

My outer walls are brick veneer, so I guess I was looking thru my filter.

I know .22 mag will go thru plywwod and aluminum with ease.

Thanks again.

Gun control advocates can't learn
TeamNRA asks "Will the gun-control freaks ever admit that they are wrong ?"

The anser is no. An acquaintance who works with people who are chemically addicted has told me that it is the addiction that matters to them, not logic, common sense, or even results. Every thing they do must serve the addiction, or at best be a secondary priority.

Applying this principle to gun control advocates, we must concentrate on the word "control", not the word "gun". It is control they are addicted to. They must have control. They have the same irrational fear of you having a gun, and control of it, that any drug addict has of going cold turkey.

Results like that experienced in Kennesaw, GA, or cited by John Lott in his books are irrelevant to the control junkie. You might as well ask a crack junkie to give up his pipe as expect a gun control advocate to trust you with your own gun.

The control freak applies the same kind of thinking to your money, person property, real property, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship. If he can't control it he'll find something wrong with it. And he won't live it alone until you put him in charge of it.

And his politics are invariably liberal.

"Be Prepared!" Revisited
The Commodore & his Lady unto Townhall: greetings.

An old proverb is written: "Love Thy Neighbor:" yet keep thy powder dry & have an ample shot supply.

In modern times, it can be said like R. A. Heinlein: "An armed society is a polite society."

For household defense, nothing is better than a 12-Gauge Shotgun with OO Buckshot. Only one blast is required, and the perp is talking things with Beelzebub after Simon Peter tells him:

"Going D O W N ! ! !"

To our Ohio colleague: the Ohio General Assembly took the Kentucky statute and changed it to reflect the Ohio situation -- even to the point of overriding Bob Taft's veto! (Yes, we Kaintucks stopped the gungrabbers in our General Assembly with a Pre-Emption Statute: the City of Louisville whined and whined, but Franklin Circuit Court laughed Louisville out of court, and fined them in the bargain for a frivolous lawsuit!)

It used to be required in the Scouts that the boys had to demonstrate firearms safety, and had a merit badge to boot. The Commodore does not remember the exact language, but passage of the State's Youth Hunter Safety Exam was required for said merit badge. (The NOW gals may whine "Sexism!" but the Commodore remembers the Old West, the Zane Grey/Louis L'amor books, and the idea where all a lady had to do was scream and a dozen men would gather around her to protect her against all comers. Or if a lady was riding her buckboard in a wild manner, the local Law would attract attention and the men would come to her aid. Would God we menfolk would do the same thing in the 21st Century AD.)

Merit badges
To the Commodore

There are still merit badges for Boy Scouts in Rifle Shooting and Shotgun Shooting. (Training must be done by NRA certified instructor.)

Vic
"As a cop told me once though, make sure they fall "in the house". "

Ayoob would disagree with that if it means moving the body; there is no way to do that without making it obvious that evidence was altered and that means REAL trouble. Besides, DNA from blood spatters should spell out where the perp was hit.

Not everyone agrees with Ayoob but I believe he does a valuable service for the lay person in letting us know what rights we have and don't have (in a general way since state laws are different). My son has a copy of "In the Gravest Extreme" and it has a lot of good info in it.

Kids aren't respectful of boundaries
Part of the problem with liberal fears of kids and guns is that liberals are wimpy 'no-spanking' parents. Therefore we have a generation of children who have no clue how to obey, nor the will to do so! They do not respect the boundaries placed around them for their protection.

I, too, was raised with guns in the home (and a father in the home--that point shouldn't be lost on anyone). We knew where Daddy's gun was. We knew to NEVER touch it. He taught us how to use it. I knew that the only time I could ever get into his underwear drawer to get that tool was if my life was in danger.

My friends would never have entered my parents bedroom and, quite frankly, my friends and I were not left alone--I had a mother who believed it was her job to raise us to adulthood instead of 'fulfilling herself' outside the home. Didn't allow us lots of luxuries just living on Daddy's meager salary, but we had parents who were invested in our lives!

My children have also been raised with guns and a father. They were taught the same as I was. And were taught that if they were ever curious to come to him and he would gladly unload it, have them look at it to make sure it was unloaded, then they would handle it. The teaching continues. They know where to 'hole up' with big brother holding the 9mm with little sister behind him calling police...and not to lay down the weapon just because the 911 lady says the cops are on their way!

The problem comes in with OTHER children. I and my children would have NEVER, EVER EVER considered going into the bedroom of my friend's parents, nor pawing through their things to, oh happy day!, find a gun! But that is the world the libs have foisted upon us--kids who do as they please.

And on the subject of concealed carry:

Last year a non-gun owning girlfriend from NY State joined me on the west coast for a week long leave-the-husbands-and-kids-home 'girlfriend' trip. Because my CWP and my 9mm went with us we never had any worries just being two 40ish women out alone on the highways of my home state, Oregon. As we would stop and viewpoint after viewpoint her question was "did you put on your friend?".

Did we ever need it? THE only time we felt vulnerable was the time we stopped at a heavily populated viewpoint overlooking the ocean and I left it in the car. Cameras at the ready to capture the exquisite sights, a man approached us asking for $40 (not the usual 'hey, you gotta buck?' by a disheveled waif-like drifter, but FORTY freaking dollars!).

We then noticed all the other RV's had pulled out and we were alone with this very large man dressed (and built) like he had just come out of the gym and in an area with drop-offs and alot of underbrush! He could have tossed us off the cliffs like pop cans.

His story of need was full of holes and we told him we had no money. He dropped his asking price down to $20, then to $1. We were relieved to see another car pulling in. What would have happened on that lonely stretch of road if another batch of tourists had not come? He seemed to accept that we weren't giving him anything so he sauntered over to that car and the one that followed it--while *I* sauntered over to put on my formerly left behind little friend.

We decided to troll that viewpoint several times and when we witnessed that he wasn't moving on, but making other female travelers wary, we called 911 and turned him in.

Point being, we would have been much safer had I disregarded the 'safety in numbers' initial reaction I had when pulling into that viewpoint and worn my own protection. Lesson learned.

To: Reagan Revolutionary
Re: Found it!
Glad you did the research.

You said..."I think this actually means disarmament of our military."

No, it is the citizenry that is disarmed. The military and police, 'loyal' to the government under threat of death, will be the only ones armed. This is to insure that any revolt or uprising can and will be immediately put down with armed force.

Armed Citizen
When was the last time you heard of an "on Duty" (Armed) Cop being mugged????

Vic & Packrat
In my prior experience, the only ammunition that's really needed for "indoor" use with a shotgun is the standard #6 or #7 birdshot load. At the usual defensive situation range (15 feet or less), a load of birdshot will do all the damage required. And unlike even No.4 buck, let alone No. 00, birdshot generally won't go through outer walls, or even sheetrock, although please note that plasterboard will not stop it, or even slow it down noticeably, until it has traveled at least 10-15 yards, as opposed to feet.

There's also the consideration of recoil. Generally, birdshot has a smaller powder charge than buckshot, unless you use the long 3" or 3 1/2" Magnum rounds. (And for defense use, they're really not necessary.) If the "house gun" is to be used by a smaller-statured relative of the owner (spouse, adolescent child, etc.), you might consider going to either skeet or trap loads. They fire the same size shot (usually #7), with an even lighter powder charge. But at the ranges under consideration here, they are still more than sufficient. But as with any shotgun load, be sure of your backstop before firing.

By the same token, if you are at all sensitive to recoil, avoid "turkey loads". Even with small shot, they are loaded with maximum powder charges, which your shoulder will immediately be aware of when you squeeze the trigger.


cheers

eon

Eon and Vic
When I was a teenager, I must confess that a non-shooter was introduced to a Bolt action 12 gauge in my presence and I did not alert him. ( yes there was one.) The owner told him to hold it a inch or two away from his shoulder to ease the kick.

Kids can be so mean. Other than that we did follow all the safety rules. The football coach wanted to kill us for the obvious reason.

He grew up to fly for the Air Force.

To Cad Man
Of course I wasn't trying to tell people to move the body, that could be a seperate felony by itself. The point was that if it looks pretty much like a case of home defence here, they aren't going to push you too hard. However, if you blow them away in the yard you may have to show some other evidence as to why it was necessary to shoot them.

To Packrat
I've seen a bolt action shotgun, but I've never owned one. I've owned just about every other kind though, from the single shot breakdown through the auto-loader.

Ya'll told a guy to hold it 2" from his shoulder and he believed you? Was he like one of the liberals we get on here posting their drivel?

Re: Vic
Agreed. In fact, Ayoob also writes that if the criminal flees and you chase and shoot him then you become the attacker and poor, downtrodden Mr. Dirtbag becomes the victim. Crazy!

Time for a beer. Salud!


Grandma Bubby/Nam65-66
Grandma Bubby: Your posting was great and the story reminded me of something similar that happened to me. As Nam65-66 posted, a gun would have been a great equalizer in that situation.

Nam65-66: That analogy about guns being equalizers was superb!

Guns don't kill people--
--Muslim fanatics do.

Ban Muslim fanatics now!

Frangible Ammo..
A shotgun is fine for home defense... Me personally, I think that any load (at close range) would be totally effective, regardless of what size shot is being used.. Be it Double-Ought
Buckshot or #8 shot, at close range it will serve it's purpose and I wouldn't worry about collateral damage... But, there is an alternative
to a shotgun which is just as effective... It's called frangible ammo and every airline pilot that is currently armed, you can bet that's what thier weapon's are loaded with... Basicly, what it is is a nylon-composite bullet.. It has the same effect as a FMJ bullet on soft tissue, thereby making it a lethal round.. However, these bullet's break apart into tiny piece's when they strike anything hard, thereby eliminating the collateral damage factor.. Frangible bullets do not ricochet, making them quite suitable for home defense... Frangible ammo is readily available for the common pistol calibers (.38 special, 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Mag, .45 APC)

Vic
He beleived the owner. The shoulder in question was black and blue for a couple of weeks. Since he was one of the star football players, that's why coach wanted OUR hides.

I taught both of my sons that if even at 3 they wanted to touch my rifle, they had to ask. When the gave me a questioning look, I said what if I went and got your favorite toy without asking you. They understood that and never touched without asking. The youngest qualified expert with both .45 and 9MM in Army.

Packrat
LOL, I'll bet he will never forget that.

almost victims?
In my mid-30's (12 days ago--ha ha ha!) more than 15 years ago, a girlfriend and I decided to travel from Eugene to Portland for a Sewing Expo. I took my .22 Ruger and hid it under the seat. No, didn't have a CWP like I do now.

So on the way home from Portland we stopped in Salem for a bite to eat...and the dang car wouldn't start. Called hubby to drive up the hour from Eugene to do whatever needed done to the hunk o'junk and decided my friend and I would go to a pancake house across the street. We were in the dark parking lot of a local grocery. Two empty parking spaces separated us from a guy sitting in the driver's seat to the right of our car. He was concentrating on us. Not the friendly 'gee you ladies look like you could use a hand' but just staring. The kind of staring that gives you the ooogies. He hadn't DONE anything, but still gave us the creeps.

So I allowed the angled parking to assist me by having her open the passenger door and step back out of the way. I let him see me pick the Ruger up and tuck it into my rather large handbag.

Funny thing, he INSTANTLY was focusing on the wall in front of his car...it was like we became invisible.

Incidents like that have happened to my sister-in-law, too. If the men in question had not seen our respective shootin' irons, would we have been in certain danger? I don't know. But there's no law that says I had to find out! (yet)

To Kim
Sorry it's so far down the list but I suggest checking with the local police for an NRA instructor in your area. He can help you from there, good luck!

Bleeding Heart-give me a break. Your phony self-righteousness and moral superiority make us puke. Nobody here owning a gun relishes the idea of taking someone else's life, even in self defense. You do what you have to do,(or maybe you'd offer the creep tea, crumpets and a chat abuot changing his ways?) and the choice is as simple as my life or his. Here in Colorado our Dem governor just OK'd an extension to our Make My Day law, now also permitting business owners to use deadly force to protect themselves/employees.

No wonder the moonbats really haven't posted to this thread-their comments would be shot right out of the air. ;)


chr335
Two more cents for a .357. I do recommend a 6-inch barrel versus a 4-inch, if you want to improve your aim through target practice. But it's a trade-off, as the shorter barrel is easier to carry around, if that's what you're going for. The suggestion from several posters that you use .38 ammo is also a good one. Get experienced with the weapon, then graduate to the .357 ammo, which kicks more when you fire.

If you do want to carry a concealed weapon at some point, you may want to move on to an automatic pistol. But if you prefer to stay with a revolver, you can reduce unwieldiness by choosing a smaller grip. Depends on how you end up liking to shoot. See how it feels in your hand before making decisions.

I'm partial to the Colt 1911 .45 automatic, what we trained on in the Navy for years and still a class sidearm. But a .9mm is elegant, if you're interested in going the automatic route. Less kick, good effect. I do much better on "weak hand" firing with the .9mm than with the .45.

Any of the suggestions here are man-stoppers. I wouldn't bother with a .22.


boomer
Rockin suggestion on the "No Gun Zone" signs for the houses of all the anti-gun activists. Nice.

"Gun Control....
... is when you hit your target" !

That's the sticker on the back of my truck. And though I'm often at odds with Adams, his column here is right on target.

Vince, 2nd Amendment supporter

Fourth Grader Settles Gun Control Debate
I want every person who is against our right for self defense to put their life where their mouth is. Every person or official who proposes that American citizens not be allowed to carry a weapon must also insist that any of their own personal security ALSO not be allowed to carry a gun!

Mustang
"Every person or official who proposes that American citizens not be allowed to carry a weapon must also insist that any of their own personal security ALSO not be allowed to carry a gun!"

Just over 50 years ago, when I started voting, my Pappy advised me to beware of rich liberals; that is still great advice.

We have public officials -- mostly rich liberals -- who write restrictive laws to control us while establishing generous ("liberal"?) exemptions for themselves. Feinstein, Conyers and "Chucky" Schumer come to mind. I don't know how wealthy CA State Sen. Perata is but he himself packs heat while working to take away guns belonging to the "unwashed masses."

Far too many public officials have conveniently forgotten that they are public servants (in spite of a SCOTUS ruling that says so) and think of themselves as our masters. The fact that people go along with their dictatorial attitudes reminds me of a quote by Edward R. Murrow "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." Of course, the public schools seem to be teaching their students stuff that can be called the "fine art of surrender" so what can we expect?

I own 5 guns, only 1 of which may be
registered because of how long ago and how (inherited)I acquired the others. I will NEVER turn any of them over, or register them, regardless of any law enacted which infringes on my basic rights. I got a BB gun on my 5th birthday and a 20 guage shotgun for my 7th. Two of the best presents I could ever get. I have the utmost respect for any gun's capabilities and have a hard time following the logic of why I should have to register to carry a concealed handgun. They are in every sense of the word - "equalizers". I believe that in certain schools (suburban and country schools only, since the inner city kids already learn this on the street)that there should be classes offered on gun safety to encourage children to understand and respect firearms and cause more people to ultimately own guns and, if absolutely necessary, to use them. I also believe that this would actually have the effect of reducing the incidence of times when the use of a gun is necessary. This would give several of the smaller children and girls a maturity that comes with the knowledge of handling guns and a sense of well-being as they learn that they do not have to be made to feel afraid or inferior to the physically-abusive bullies that are all too present in our society. This would also make for a whole lot friendlier country and may even be a step away from the "wussification" that our touchy, feely politicians are heading us.

dyerje and boomer
"Rockin suggestion on the "No Gun Zone" signs for the houses of all the anti-gun activists. Nice."

Just make sure that a gun owner doesn't use one; a left wing liberal (I know; it's redundant) judge roars, "You used a misleading sign to entrap poor, downtrodden Mr. Scumbag so you would have the pleasure of killing him!" and your @$$ is grass and the judge is the lawn mower. Or a scalp-hunting prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney could spew the same drivel. I know; it stinks.

Some of you were talking
About ignorance with a gun. And some may have read this. it was in the papers many years ago. Out on the Twentynine Palms U.S.M.C. base. A young recruit was playing around with a .45. He decided it would be great sport to scare his buddy. He took one of the bullets and pried the bullet out of the case and dumped all the powder out.
He then inserted the empty brass into the .45 with the intentions of just firing the cap to scare his friend.

Then he made a fatal decision. He decided to put a pencil in the barrel to see what would happen. Thinking it would just bounce off his friend. When his buddy came in he pointed the .45 at his friend and fired. The pencil drove through his breastbone and into the heart, killing him. The shooter of course was convicted of Manslaughter.

Msg to CHR335
Go to a range, talk to the people, try the handguns. Gun people are open with info. What kind of gun should you buy? What kind of car/house/computer/dog/etc should you buy? Get comfortable, get familiar but keep one thing in mind: there's a reason why the military has gotten away from 9mm (but they can't fire hollow-points like we can . . . Geneva Convention, y'know). When you get something, get some training/pointers and shoot, shoot, shoot. It'll all fall into place, trust me. And check into International Defensive Pistol Association to see if there's anything in your area.

Re: Pub 7277
When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

Rudyard Kipling
"The Gods of the Copybook
Headings"

Remember that the second amendment...
was written by a bunch of guys who just finished overthrowing their previous government. I don't think the irony was lost on them.

After all, if A well regulated militia was necessary to the security of a free State, doesn't it seem odd that there would be any danger of infringement to the people's right to keep and bear arms?

Perpetuity
The liberal desire to ban weaponry could become a perpetual crusade (sorry to use, the non-PC word “crusade” which offends Utah mall murderers and other morons). Suppose we reach a liberal nirvana where all firearms have been banned and society is in 100% compliance. In this world one must then start looking askance at those with archery equipment. After solving the archery problem then spears, swords and knives become a problem, closely followed by clubs and stones. Finally we will have to address weight lifting and martial arts.

In the end result, he who can whip your butt, is your master.


Goshawk
"This is to insure that any revolt or uprising can and will be immediately put down with armed force."

This underscores what the woman in the video clip said; that the law protects all of us (we the people) from all of them (tyranny in government).

great point!

1 more comment
For the utopian gun banners:

If every weapon in the US disappeared tomorrow, how long would it take to make more?

If a VietCong in rural VietNam could make a working pistol using a hand drill and file, how long would it take Joe Sixpack with a drill press, high speed grinders, etc?

I rest my case.

DavidMac
You suggest that a bullet would travel in a straight line inside a body unless it hit "something solid". You forget, the body itself is something solid. Not to mention that the body itself is inconsistently formed, there are more and less dense patches, as well as empty areas within the torso. Given all of this, there may be two different frictional coefficients on opposing surfaces of the projectile, causing it to alter course.

Not to mention that bullets tend to deform on impact, the irregular shape making them move in less than straight lines as well.

Lastly, simple experience teaches that small, light bullets tend to be deflected by internal structures "hard" and "soft" more easily than more massive bullets. If you check out autopsies of people shot with .22 you will see that the bullet tends to be deflected from a straight path quite easily.

And, no, the .22 doesn't bounce around for a longer time than a comparable slug. The point is, a .45 will go in and out in a straight line as you described, taking most of the kinetic energy with it. The .22, on the other hand, may be deflected multiple times, expending more (or all) of the kinetic energy inside the body.

At least, that is what I believe the original poster meant.

DavidMac
One more correction:

Once the bullet strikes an object, all acceleration is finished. The correct formula (rather than f=ma) for our purposes would be e=1/2 mv^2 , as we are concerned with the total kinetic energy of the bullet, not the force applied to accelerate the bullet.

Gun Control Debate
Mke's article said the Utah mall shooter "appeared" to be stopped by a carry permit civilian. According to Fox News reports, he was killed by 4 police officers, one of which was off duty. I love Mike's columns but he needs to be carefull about his assumptions.

bobcatsmoosh and Packrat
Even if it were possible to remove all firearms (it isn't) then what the late Erle Stanley Gardner posed in "Sports Afield's" three part survival series: most violent criminals are in their 20's and 30's; those who have amassed any degree of wealth are in their 40's, 50's and 60's. It doesn't take much imagination to picture waking up in the wee hours to see a well-built 25-year old thug standing at the foot of your bed holding a knife and demanding your money and your daughter. What could you do about it?

Libs probably will evade the question.

bobcatsmoosh and Packrat
OOPS! I posted too soon.

The other question, about how long it would take to make more weapons, can be answered, "Not long at all."

Convicts in prisons have been known to make crude firearms in prison; high school level knowledge of shop and chemistry is sufficient. Teen gangs in the slums of NYC have made zip guns using pieces of TV antenna and some even used certain cigarette lighters (I don't remember the make) by putting the tube inside the lighter body and reworking the lighting mechanism. It was only discovered when someone poured lead around the barrel for added strength.


My favorite 'no tresspassing' sign
"Tresspassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again."

guns
Been shopping for a carry gun for several weeks, the incident in Utah has convinced me that I need to "pull the trigger" (pun intended) and get my piece.

David Mac - I hadn't thought of that before, as far as a smaller caliber bouncing around inside a target. A .45 will make a clean hole, but conceivably, a .22 could be more lethal if it penetrates but does not exit - after all, John Hinkley nearly killed Reagan with a .22. Thanks for mentioning that, it makes me feel more secure with a .380 ACP pistol.

jcthomasva
PMFJI but I have a piece that is inexpensive and well-made: a 9x18 Makarov that cost me about $150 when I bought it. Ammo is readily available in both FMJ and JHP loadings. Ammo does not interchange with 9x18 Ultra (German) because the Mak uses a .363 inch bullet. The grip angle takes some getting used to because it is similar to the P-38 but it's a good, solid piece. The only fly in the ointment is that the mag has open sides that can let in dirt; however, I have not had a problem. Not a bad caliber, IMO, and when indoors it may be easier on the ears than some of the larger calibers (although you should ALWAYS wear ear protection when at the range).

Sorry but it's not for sale. :-)

Cad Man
Thanks for the info. I've done some research on Maks as well, I'm a little put off on them due to the unconventional 9 x 18 ammo (I can find it at good gun shops but not at Wally World or Bass Pro), but I might purchase one a little later on down the line. They sound like great guns and I've held a few that feel pretty nice. I understand Mak 9 is a little hotter than 380, so later I might upgrade. I would go full 9 Para but I really haven't found a subcompact I found as comfortable as the three major 380 pistols (Walther PPK, Bersa Thunder & Sig 230/232). All the subcompact 9's I've handled felt awkward (Glock 26, Taurus, Kahr - but I do like the Kahrs - $).

My gun story
A few years ago, a friend and I were driving on a desolate stretch of rural 4-lane highway at night. A lone driver took offense at some perceived slight of my driver companion. After driving parallel with us for a couple of miles, all the while gesturing and angrily mouthing who-knows-what, he pulls ahead of us as we approached a 4-way stop. As soon as our vehicle came to a stop behind his, on went his parking lights and his door flies open. Immediately, he starts back to the driver side of our vehicle with his right hand jammed in his jacket pocket.

Fortunately for us, we were returning from a day of shooting at an area gun club and the cab of our pickup was stacked with all manner of firearms. By the time our chap makes it to the window, he was looking at the wrong end of my Remington 12 gauge. That and my simple but stern command to “Get back in your car!” was all it took to send our would-be miscreant scrambling back the way he came and into the night.

We’ll never know what (if anything) that guy may have had in his pocket, but we were convinced that NO ONE would have come up on us under those circumstances had he not been armed. I am also convinced that I wouldn’t be pecking away on my keyboard today if WE hadn’t been armed.

My other brush with an armed felon.
One Friday afternoon several years ago, I was standing in the teller line at my local bank. In comes a thug waving a .38 snubnose and screaming at everyone to get on the floor. I am not ashamed to say I was the first one to “kiss the tile,” being unarmed as I was at the moment. After cleaning out the drawers and pistol-whipping a couple of the tellers, he goes out the door only to discover his accomplice has left with the getaway car. He fires a shot in the direction of a man who was at the ATM (according to the detective later, this was to thwart any attempt to positively ID him later), and then, in an attempt to commandeer a vehicle, he steps in front of a pick-up that was just entering the parking lot. He fires over the cab of the truck, but instead of stopping, our good ole boy just floors the accelerator and runs completely over the crook, breaking (according to the police report) one of his legs. Still, he is trying to make a getaway. By this time though, ATM guy has fished a baseball bat out of his trunk and he and the pickup driver proceed to “convince” our would-be holdup artist to “wait” for the police. By the time the police did show up, the multiple felon was sporting several more contusions than he had when the truck went over him.

Did I mention that this incident (and the one in my previous post) occurred in the great state of Tennessee – a place where the decent folk go armed, take a proactive citizens’ approach to keeping the peace, and enjoy one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country?

Hey Bobcat!
What are we going to do now that Ann's message board is gone? I feel so lonely . . .

CHR335 and Buying a First Gun
CHR335,

I wrote a 48 page e-book on the subject of how to go about choosing a handgun. This e-book is mostly geared towards the beginner.

Just so you're aware, I'm an NRA Certified Firearm Instructor, NRA Membership Recruiter and have owned and operated http://www.SaveTheGuns.com for over seven years.

I agree with some previous advice. A .22 caliber rimfire revolver is good to start with. A double action .357 magnum revolver is a good second gun.

The .357 Magnum will fire .38 Specials, which are less powerful and less overwhelming. You can then graduate to the full power .357 Magnum when you're ready to.

The .38 Special is very popular and is okay for self defense as well.

If you're going to carry it concealed in public, keep the barrel at four inches or below for better concealment. If it will be a home/range handgun, go with a six to eight inch barrel to maximize the bullet energy.

Again, I have written the 48 page e-book on the subject and you might benefit from it.

http://www.savetheguns.com/my_e-book.htm

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Response to beachmom
I only watch Fox News, and they reported that the shooter was a Muslim from Bosnia.
I also learned to shoot a 22 rifle when I was 11 yrs old. I have great respect for guns, and feel that any law abiding citizen that wants one, should have one. And if the time comes,if we are invaded, I will stand in my window, and shoot as many as I can before they get me. I'm too old to volunteer in the military, but will help to defend our homeland.

GrannyNC

.50 Caliber Crime?
Dude3344,

There have been no crimes committed with a .50BMG rifle in the United States either before or after the ban.

Just so you know, that shooting you mentioned in Texas was at Luby's. The woman you speak of was Suzanna Gratia Hupp, who made it to the United States House of Representatives from Texas and is a proud and loud pro-gunner!

She left her handgun in her pick-up truck because of Texas law at the time, which she helped to change. It was not a result of a sign out front prohibiting firearm carry in the restaurant. Sorry, but I'm a stickler for details...

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

New To Shooting? Questions?
While I'm here, for a few more minutes, if there's any questions from firearm newbies, I'll be glad to field them.

If you read this message after I've left this blog, e-mail me your question at info@savetheguns.com.

After being a Certified Firearm Instructor more than 15 years, operating http://www.SaveTheGuns.com for seven years and being a shooter since I was in second grade, there's not much I'm not aware of.

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Dude3344
The .50 cal has been targeted for strict control by anti-gunners mostly because of the rifle's capabilities and the fact that many people who aren't familiar with guns see it as a military-only caliber.

It's true that the .50 cal is used to sight in tanks and it's used for long range sniper activities as well.

But that doesn't mean it should be targeted for prohibition. It's a powerful cartridge for sure. But it's gotten a bad rap merely because its looks.

No perp is going to carry a 30 pound three foot rifle with him to rob someone.

I'm glad to see your girlfriend takes her safety seriously. Just make sure she's fully versed in self defense law.

Guns...
Guns do not kill people. Abortion clinics kill people.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphab.html

To savetheguns
I would love one of those .50 calibers but can't afford the rifle and if I had one I couldn't afford the ammo.

gun control
I have absolutely no problem with gun control. I use both hands.

Shameful
Is anyone else horrified by all the stories of people having guns in their cars and then threatening to use them?? In my neck of the woods, that does not happen nor would it be tolerated. Where do you guys live...Compton?? Stats show if you have a gun, you are much more likely to get shot than if you don't have one. I'll never have a gun in my house, nor will my children ever learn to shoot one til they choose to aw an adult. I can't believe some of the stories here-we dont live in the wild west anymore people! No wonder we are the laughing stock of the whole world.

here's another reason for having
a handy equalizer at your home. You never know when you will be involved with a raving moonbat on a blog and they find out where you live. Follow the link to the Rotty man.

http://www.nicedoggie.net/2007/?p=187


Ruffolo
Guns don't kill people...GW Bush's foreign policies kill people.

To marshalguy101
You are the laughingstock of the world, quoting bogus statistics that have long been repudiated.

One more "war" story

As of a few years ago, New Mexico law permitted carrying a firearm in the city if it was visible (including banks). A robber was in the process of taking the money at an Albuquerque bank, when one of the customers who always wore his Colt, moved around to get a clear shot. (Fatal mistake by robber, not checking out status of customer) Told robber to drop weapon, robber did not, robber was killed. District Attorney was going to prosecute the shooter until he realized that all the people were going to be "hostile witnesses", the only person that had been "endangered" was the robber, and no jury would vote to convict.

Marshalguy301

What will happen if a robber decides to kick in your door with the intent to rob and kill you?

If you think we don't live in a dangerous society, I challenge you to walk through east Dallas, or northside Ft Worth or New York City or downtown Atlanta at night by yourself.

The reason people arm themselves is not a macho streak but a fear of being killed or hurt because no one showed up to help them. You must decide to be ready to fight or surrender. Sometimes there is no other choice. I am horrified at how naive you appear to be.

which would be more shameful?
showing a possible attacker a weapon meant to be used in self defense or becoming another statistic. As for GWB killing people with his foriegn policy yes it does but it is people who want to kill us and take the freedoms we live under. With rights come responsiblities. Sadly your kids are more likely to have an accident with a weapon due to the fact they have not been taught the proper way to use and handle them....all because like an evil automobile they can kill people....do you have a car, will you let your kids learn about cars or their use... a gun is just a tool, tool

Bleeding Heart Liberal
All of a sudden you are worried about "responsibility".
OK. How about responsibilty being applied to convicted killers? You ok with the death penalty?
How about responsibilty being applied to drunken drivers resulting in a girl drowning? You are ok with some jail time and never letting them in the senate?
How about responsibility applied to high speed chase? It would be the responsible thing to have a minimum 10 years confinement tacked on wouldn't it?
How about responsibilty being applied to children given a license to drive a ton of automobile around in an irresponsible manner -- like passing on hills? Can we count on you for a 10 year sentence since the death and dismemberment of innocent people is at stake?
It seems strange to be lectured by a member of the oh-he-apologized-if-he-hurt-anyone-so-it-is-water-under-the-bridge-now-party.

Marshallguy301
You said "Stats show if you have a gun, you are much more likely to get shot than if you don't have one."

Wrong!

I don't know who told you that lie, but the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, the National Institute of Justice Crime Reports and just about any federal or state agency that studies the subject will disagree with your statement.

Which stats do you refer to? Can you site the source?

Furthermore, you said "I can't believe some of the stories here-we dont live in the wild west anymore people!"

That's a thoughtless statement. You've been watching too many movies. In the classic "wild west" years from 1850 to 1885, the bloodiest year was 1876 in Abilene, Kansas where there were a total of just seven (7) murders. In those years, there just was not that many killings at all.

In the "wild west" everyone of substance was armed and ready to defend what was theirs. Sure, there were indian raids, occasional battles with Mexico, some rogue gangs here and there, but the "wild west" you refer to almost completely made up by movie directors trying to sell films.

I have studied and taught firearm education, gun safety, self defense and the Second Amendment for more than half my life. You're way over your head here.

Perhaps you are a well-meaning, genuinely concerned and caring individual, but you clearly need an education before spouting.

Firearms are used to defend individuals, families and businesses to the tune of two million (2,000,000)times a year. Yet, there is less than nine thousand 9,000 murders committed with them.

I invite an informed discussion, but I refuse to banter with a complete lack of facts.

Packrat
"The reason people arm themselves is not a macho streak but a fear of being killed or hurt because no one showed up to help them. You must decide to be ready to fight or surrender. Sometimes there is no other choice. I am horrified at how naive you appear to be."

Add to that the fact that the courts (including SCOTUS) have ruled that police have no obligation to protect any individual; only the public at large. The latter means solving the crime afterward rather than preventing it. That means we are on our own in matters of personal protection.

AFAIK, nobody has argued that when a government entity takes away our means of defending ourselves then it becomes government's responsibility to provide protection. "We can't protect you nor can we allow you to protect yourself" is an official attitude that can't and mustn't be tolerated. Officials who have that attitude -- liberals, IOW -- must be turned out to pasture.

Marshallguy301
You said "I'll never have a gun in my house, nor will my children ever learn to shoot one..."

That is certainly your right, unless you live in a town like Kennesaw Georgia that REQUIRES that you own a firearm.

However, I am concerned about your children. Teaching gun safety for kids is a passion of mine.

In fact, if you were to "Google" the term "gun safety rules for kids", my website should pop up near number one in the world!!!

The fact is that if you don't have a gun in your home, the chances are good that both of your neighbors do own at least one firearm. And who knows how they store it???

Your children should be taught some degree of gun safety and what to do if they find one unattended somewhere.

Please, please, please do not just tell your kids that "guns are bad" and nothing else. If you make firearms a "forbidden fruit", your kids will be drawn to them. They MUST be taught properly how to handle a possible unsupervised encounter with an unattended gun.

Go to these two pages for more...

http://www.savetheguns.com/safety_rules.htm

http://www.savetheguns.com/for_kids_only.htm

One More Thing...
I hate to dominate the last few posts, but it seems as if most posters have moved on to greener pastures.

But of the two million to two and a half million times a year that firearms are used for some kind of defense, about 93% of the time, they are NOT FIRED.

Only in about 7% of the instances is the defender's firearm actually fired. That's for the record...

Oh yeah and someone should tell Rudy Guiliani that the Second Amendment is not about hunting, it's about freedom. That's for the record too!

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Education
Education is definitely the answer when it comes to the handling of guns. I echo teaching kids about who to do. I believe the "don't touch, get an adult" drill is a good one for kids.

I repeat: Ignorance kills.


Gun Control

I got my Carry Permit when I was 21 years old (1971) and all you needed was 3 letters of recommendation and a clean record. Believe it or not this was in CT (it was not always a blue state).

Fast forward to 1992, I had stopped carrying for years. I was just starting a new job as a night supervisor for a local company's data center. It was in Hartford near the prison. My wife suggested I start to carry my S&W 38 SP in the car just in case.

Well about 2 weeks later as I was coming home at 4 AM and made the connection from I91 to I84 I was confronted with a POS car in the left lane (with NY plates) going about 30 miles an hour. I did the normal thing and gave them a quick flash of my high beams indicating my desire to pass them. Next thing I know they (there was 2 people in the car) were all over the road (I assumed the driver must have fallen a sleep) and stopped on the dirt in the middle in a cloud of dust. I slowed down to make sure they were okay and as they seemed fined I left (thinking to myself, what an idiot!). A few miles down the road I took my exit and stopped at the red light at the end. In my mirror I noticed that they had followed me (with their lights of) and were hanging back about quarter of a mile or so. I thought, great, now I have some idiot who will follow me to my house (where my wife and d 2 little kids were sleeping) and who knows what they were planning. I decided to see if they were in fact following me so I drove to the local grocery store (which was closed) and went into the parking lot. They followed and pulled behind a tree (still had their lights off). So, I drove right up to their car (probably not to smart) rolled down my window and so did the creep (honest, this guy had long dirty hair and an upside down cross carved into his forehead). I asked him what the problem was and he said "No problem they will just find my body in the morning' and pulled a knife and started to get out of his car (it should be noted that the 'girl' with him was screaming "kill the m*ther f*cker" over and over. Before he was out of the car I lifted my revolver into view and cocked the hammer. My only response was "It's your move". He slammed to door and took off like a rocket. I sat at that parking lot for an hour before I went home just to be sure that they did not double back.


bullets spin...
DavidMac writes: When a bullet (any bullet) enters a body, it travels in a straight line


Except that it is spinning. So whenever it enters anything or hits anything, the spin becomes relevant. I have seen a mostly-spent 9mm round spin off plasterboard, skip down a few inches, spin again, and then go downrange.

marshallguy301
What are you going to do when someone says "Gimme your wallet?"

Clarification
In a previous post this sentence should have read like this"

"AFAIK, nobody has argued IN COURT that when a government entity takes away our means of defending ourselves then it becomes government's responsibility to provide protection."

The all caps indicate what was missing before.

Safety
People killed by guns since 1976 - about 300,000.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm


People killed by abortion clinics since 1973 - about 48,000,000.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphab.html


People killed by Bush foreign policy - about 3,200.

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/


Is an American safer near a person with a gun in their hand or with a feminist as a Mom?

Wait, guns don't kill people, chainsaws
kill people. According to Modern Marvels on the History Channel, 40,000 people per year are killed or injured with chainsaws.

why Trolley Square
Most commentators miss this aspect of the Trolley Square shootings. Why was only one shopper armed? Unusual for Utah. Was it because the mall was a "gun free zone" imposed by the owners (which they have the right to do)? See information on that here:

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/02/gun-free-zones-and-mass-shootings.html

Glad to know I'm not alone!!!
I'm sure glad to have read all of these comments
and would be even more pleased if i thought the
writers would actually join the fight.

4 million NRA members in a country of 300 million
is a disgrace!
STEP UP!!!!!

Redhead

Suicide rates
Actually I just researched suicide rates myself. The latest statistics by the World Health Organization listed Japan at 10th place with 23.8 suicides per hundred thousand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

The latest figures for suicides in the US (2004) show a rate of 11.05 per hundred thousand, more than double Japan's rate.

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

Also, according to a recent column in The Telegraph, since the UK enacted "what are said to be the toughest gun control laws in the world...gun crime has doubled."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/16/dl1601.xml

In spite of stricter gun laws in Australia, the number of assaults have risen from 114,156 in 1996 to 158,629 in 2003, an increase of almost 30%. Sexual assaults rose from 14,542 in 1996 to 18,237 in 2003, an increase of almost 23%.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2005/01_recordedCrime.html#number

And finally, since 1994, the year before Texans were given the right to carry concealed weapons, there were 129,838 incidents of violent crime among our population of 18,378,000.

In 2005 that number fell to 121,091 incidents of violent crime among our population of 22,859,968.

Our population grew by 4,481,968 while incidents of violent crime fell by 8,747 since we were allowed to carry concealed weapons. Murders FELL from 2,022 in 1994 to 1,407 in 2005.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm


Correction
Silly me, I said "The latest figures for suicides in the US (2004) show a rate of 11.05 per hundred thousand, more than double Japan's rate." It's actually the other way around, Japan's suicide rate is more than double that of the US.

Support Fred Thompson

Former Senator Fred Thompson's stance on the issue is as follows:

Strongly Favors 2nd Amendment Rights
While in office Fred voted;
YES on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks:
YES on loosening license & background checks at gun shows:
NO on background checks at gun shows:

Then while appearing on Fox News Sunday (3/11/07) Chris Wallace asked where Thompson stood on a list of issues;

WALLACE: Gun control.

THOMPSON: Well, I'm against gun control generally. You know, you check my record. You'll find I'm pretty consistent on that issue.

WALLACE: So this federal court - appeals court ruling this last week, I guess Friday, in the case of D.C. - you'd be perfectly happy to have people have handguns in their homes?

THOMPSON: Yes. Absolutely. The court basically said the Constitution means what it says, and I agree with that.

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