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Tuesday, November 14, 2006
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
The End of Affirmative Action
by Mike Adams
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For years, people have asked me why I switched from being a left-wing Democrat to a right-wing Republican. When I'm not in the mood to talk, I give a one-word response: reality. When I'm feeling more verbose, I give a two-word response: affirmative action.

Affirmative action in theory bears no resemblance to affirmative action in reality. The theory part was taught to me as a doctoral student in a sociology department in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Most of the academic rhetoric focused on what affirmative action isn't.

But sometimes my professors would calm lingering doubts by saying what affirmative action is; namely, that it is both temporary and a tie-breaker. Those are really the only affirmative statements I've ever heard about affirmative action.

But then I graduated from college and finally had an opportunity to experience affirmative action in reality. Those early experiences, like the later ones, were uniformly negative.

As a young Ph.D. student, I was told by a department chair at Memphis State (now the University of Memphis) that, due to race, I had no chance in a head-to-head contest with the only other interviewee, a black male. He was honest enough to say that they were under too much pressure from human resources to give me a fair shake.

So I withdrew from that interview only to learn a year later that I couldn't fully escape the overt racial discrimination of affirmative action. In my first informal recruitment meeting as a professor in the University of North Carolina system, I listened to a social worker object to an applicant on the grounds that he was a "little too white male."

Of course, it should come as no surprise that people engage in racial discrimination in hiring when they are specifically asked to do so by human resources. But what is surprising about affirmative action is the extent to which it encourages discrimination along the lines of other variables not classified as "allowable" under official policies.

I have simply lost count of the number of times over the years that my colleagues have brought factors such as political affiliation and religion into discussions of job applicants.

Objections such as "He's too religious" or "He's too much of a family man" or "Her husband plays too dominant a role in their marriage" are simply indefensible. And it is worth asking whether such criteria would be so casually considered if human resources did not open a Pandora's box by deeming some discrimination to be an "acceptable" means to a desirable end.

But the discussion of affirmative action should by no means focus on the bad results it produces for white males like me. The real tragedy is its negative impact on the groups it purports to help. The effect is one I describe with a phrase called the "Reverse Roger Bannister Effect."

When Roger Bannister broke the four-minute mile in 1954, a whole class of people -- not a race but those who run them -- realized for the first time that a seemingly insurmountable goal could be achieved. So, naturally, others started breaking the four-minute barrier left and right just as soon as the bar of achievement was raised by Bannister.

That is precisely the opposite of what is happening with affirmative action. By lowering the bar and (in the short-term) making things easier for minorities, we guarantee persistent gaps in achievement. President Bush calls this the "soft bigotry" of low expectations. I prefer to call it the "hard reality" of low expectations.

Affirmative action is also an embarrassment for minorities who do not need or want to be measured by a lower standard. A black female student I taught in 1993 summed it up best by saying that although she had been admitted to college on the basis of outstanding grades and test scores, no one believed her. Whites just assumed she was there because of affirmative action. Once a class of people is given credit for something its members did not achieve, individuals in that class forfeit credit for the things they actually did.

I also look back on certain experiences and realize that affirmative action degrades whole institutions, not just individuals.

Twice, our department has flown in a white candidate under the mistaken belief that he or she was black. But we cannot accuse these candidates of lying about their race just to get an interview. In fact, we lie to them when we print "The UNC system does not discriminate on the basis of race" on every application. And I wonder how we still have the moral authority to punish students who plagiarize or cheat.

But maybe widespread lying is the best solution to the problem of affirmative action. If our students would all wake up one day and decide to start checking the box for "African American" on every university form, our affirmative action programs would break down altogether. Then maybe we could replace "race consciousness" with the colorblindness Martin Luther King envisioned.

My idea of lying about race to get ahead is really not original. In fact, it's one I plagiarized from Professor Ward Churchill.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Affirmative nonsense
"Affirmative action is also an embarrassment for minorities who do not need or want to be measured by a lower standard. A black female student I taught in 1993 summed it up best by saying that although she had been admitted to college on the basis of outstanding grades and test scores, no one believed her. Whites just assumed she was there because of affirmative action. Once a class of people is given credit for something its members did not achieve, individuals in that class forfeit credit for the things they actually did."



Shockingly, I have to agree with Adams. The problem described is sadly accurate.

Great Column Prof. Adams
I deal with this subject frequently with my two kids, ages 13 and 12. I tell them they need to be better than kids of other races to be accepted to a top university, and even that might not be enough. Societies function best when reward is based on merit, not some fuzzy racial and gender based policies elevating mediocrity in the name of diversity.

Affirmative action equals institutionalized discrimination.

celtic-dragon
Why is it shocking Adams should have some idea you agree with? Ideas are separate from each other, and from the source. Heck, you know this, forget i even brought it up.
By the way, Pistol is now Savage99. Don't know why my old nick isn't allowed on.
I have zero respect for a Supreme Court which declares McCain Feingold and affirmative action are constitutional.
Havewn't seen much reaction from you on the Demster takeover of Congress. I was surprised, didn't see it coming, sine R's voted higher than the polls last couple elections. Not this time. From what i gather, the main losses came from non-political values voters in the religious right who stayed home because they saw no difference in the corruption in the R and D parties.

Mike thanks !!
Thanks for the column! I am incredulous that folks don't seem to realize that any racial discrimination is racial discrimination--a bad thing.


Savage99,
"From what i gather, the main losses came from non-political values voters in the religious right who stayed home because they saw no difference in the corruption in the R and D parties." Yep.

By the way, did you let Josue know about the problem with your handle?

MacZ,
"Scholarships should have nothing to do with skin tone...they should have everything to do with merit."

You'd think.

Cynewulf
How do i get to Josue diectly?

Silly Season
Hiring for any reason other than the best person for the job results in decreased performance. Those sectors of the economy which most rigidly subscribe to affirmative action, education and government, are amoung the most disfunctional.

Of course the real issue is not opening opportunities but about maintaining power. I've yet to meet any supporter of affirmative action that can come up with any timetable or benchmarks for ending affirmative actions. I guess timetables and benchmarks apply only in Iraq.

Savage99, here you are:

Cynewulf
Curiousr and curiouser. I see a title from you "Savage99, here you are" but i don't see any supporting post. Has your post gone directly to Josue? I'm about ready for bed. I'll give it a couple minutes and then check in to9morrow, I appreciate your help.

Cynewulf
Got the link. thx.

AA MAY BE NECESSARY
I'm not really big on affirmative action (although I do agree with it), but I'm not going to say it's not necessary either. It seems that everyone is speaking from personal experience, so let me throw my two cents in. I'm a black (or African-American) male with a college degree who'se been in the work force for 12 years. I see white people receiving positions and promotions that they're not qualified for, and it's not because the person doing the hiring is racist. The person doing the hiring may simply be more "familiar" with another white person. I'll put it like this. If my boss likes country music, is a nascar fan, and likes hunting and fishing, it's a good chance we'll never see each other outside of work. On the other hand, if I like those things also, we might bond outside the job. This gives me an advantage come promotion time, and it has nothing to do with job qualifications. Now because this isn't a politically correct website, let me be honest. People tend to associate with people of their on race. If you don't believe this, just check out church on Sunday. Therefore if white people are doing the hiring, sometimes black people will miss out because we're not a part of the same social setting. I have more I can (and probably will) add, but I'll just post this for now.

why the titles?
Why is it that Americans are put into groups like African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Muslim Americans, etc.? I don't recall my grandparents who came over from Sweden and Poland saying, "We're Swedish Americans and Polish Americans".

I think if the sub-title was removed from all groups and we were just called "Americans" we would feel much more like a whole community than separate groups and there would be less racial discrimination.

A friend of mine whose mother-in-law is from Africa (but is white) came to live in America and became a citizen. On a medical application she checked the box for "African-American" and the nurse (who was black) said to her, "You can't be an African-American because you're white.". The woman replied, "But I am from Africa and I am American."

MacZed
We must live in totally different worlds because I'm speaking what I've experienced, not what I've heard. At this job (a chemical company employing about 95 people, and contracting work to about another 120) bosses, supervisors, and hourly personnel interact after office hours quite frequently. Not all engage in fratenization after hours, but quite a few do. I've seen many white people at this site benefit from personal relationships that have nothing to do with work. I'm not saying it's intentional racism. But one group is benefiting from the "familiarity" with the people doing the promoting.

Now on a lighter note, I think subtle racism still exists today, but not enough for me to worry about. You're right on target with white men wanting to protect their women from black men, which is ironic considering the first shapely black @ss that walks by will put a white man in a trance. I have a white co-worker that hates gansta rap music (I do too), but he'll look at scantily clad hip hop divas in magazines all day. The flip side is that the same way white men don't want to see a "brotha" with their woman, a black woman will act a fool when black men start diggin white women.

AA helps bigots
Affirmative Action does not help minorities and it is degrading to them. But the worst part is that is helps bigots.

Every company sells exactly the same thing - capacity. A company sells its capacity to do whatever. A manufacturing company has the capacity to transform one pile of stuff into a different pile of stuff, insurance companies have the capacity to underwrite potential loss and manage risk, etc. Competition in business stems from the fact that, patents aside, every company could acquire the same capacity. A tool and die company can acquire the same CNC machines as their competition. Customer make choices based on whose capacity is most attractive or beneficial to them as customers. In the case of the tooling company, they are looking for superior design, quality, and delivery at a fair price. So what will differentiate one company's capacity from their competitor's and make them attractive? In nearly every case, it boils down to the human element. I refer to this as the notion of capacity differentiation. So as a business man, to make my capacity more desireable to my customers, I need the best person for the position. I need that salesman who can quickly grasp what my customer needs and communicate that effectively to the plant. I need that CNC operator who can make that machine run a half-percent more efficient, I need that buyer who can source materials that are just a little better and cheaper, etc. So I hire from the pool of available talent the absolute best I can find and I don't care what color he/she is, how old they are - none of that is relevant. If I can find a customer who is willing to pay me to employ you, you've got a job.

Enter Affirmative Action. HR now needs to hire based on color. So now some bigot who would, left to his own devices, only hire 45 year old white guys, is now forced to hire a black. Let's say he hires one who is really good at what he does. This employee then overperforms and makes the bigot's capacity more attractive than it would be if the bigot only hired his white cronies. So this bigot's business thrives in spite of his best efforts at total idiocy and I (his competitor) am forced to hire someone not quite as good. The bigot benefits from AA while the non-bigot suffers and the employee may overperform but the bigot will never allow him to reach his full potential either. So AA doesn't help minorities but it does help the bigots. Must be something about that law of unintended consequences.

If Affirmative Action is as good as the libs tell me it is, I won't rest until the NFL and the NBA have quotas. Southeast Asians are grossly under-represented on offensive lines across the NFL. It can't possibly be that they tend to be smaller, it must be discrimination!

Mr. Right
If I wanted to be as sarcastic and condescending as you are I would tell you that quotas already exist in the NFL. Punters and field goal kickers are reserved exclusively for white guys, the tailback and cornerback positions are reserved exclusively for black (African American) guys, and all other positions are based on performance. But of course I believe sarcasm has no useful purpose, so I would never say that.

P. S. Three point shooting in the NBA would be a predominately white area.

End Affirmative Retribution!
Look at the statistics: for every black male in college today there are TWO black females. And higher education as a whole is about 60% female with traditionally male colleges now majority-female.

So if we are to live and dye (sic.) by quotas, why don't we also have affirmative action for males? Not only black males but for white males?

The fact that something like this would never be considered shows affirmative retribution for what it truly is - a corrupt bill of attainer intending to punish a group of people who have deemed deserving to have corruption of blood. The people who lost the second American Civil War, circa 1969-1974, not only themselves are to be punished but also their children and now their children's children.

This was common in England - if your family was on the wrong side of a royal power struggle your blood became "corrupted" and your family punished for all time. The people writing the Constitution were aware of this and explicitly prohibited both corruption of blood and bills of attainer. And thus Affirmative Retribution was created as an end run around such restrictions.

Advocates of Affirmative Retribution need to reflect on one other aspect of the rather bloody history of the British Isles -- the way folk whose blood had been corrupted resolved the matter was to rise up and overthrow the current king and in turn corrupt the blood of those who had been in power before. So if we are to learn from history, it is only a matter of time before the white males organize and seek to affirmatively punish those responsible for their mistreatement.

Folk need to study the history of the Klan and reflect upon what would cause decent churchgoing folk from middle America to support such a hateful organization. What would cause the various waves of populism between, say, 1870 and 1940? And what do people really think that the current generation of lower middle class white males - the third such generation to have literally no hope of a future - are going to do if current things continue?

And should we be suprised that white males are rioting in colleges today? Sure the fact that they have consumed too many adult beverages helps as does a sports team victory to set them off, but we have had drunken college kids and sports team victories for decades without rioting....

AA
Affirmative action, I believe, can be traced to Darwin and his story of evolution. You've seen the charts showing man evolving from "caveman" on the bottom, and "white guy" at the top. The "black guy" is shown to have not evolved quite as far as "white guy." Therefore, "white guy" must help "black guy" advance the evolutionary ladder.A whole different outlook, and correct, is that we all descended from Mr. Noah and his boys.

Clinton Fan
Sarcastic yes. Condescending no. And I don't think quotas exist per se. It just so happens the folks who do well happen to be whatever. But I think you missed the point. There was a time when the NFL was racist and it was thought that a black man could never be a quarterback because the didn't have the intellectual clout and blacks just werent' leaders. That time was a little as 15 - 20 years ago. So how many owners with struggling franchises were cheated out of winning seasons by neglecting the Donovan McNabs or the Duante Culpeppers that existed 20 years ago? The point I was making in the whole post you seem to have neglected is that racism is it's own punishment.

I note from your previous posts that you are a black man. I don't really have any way of knowing what that's like but I can tell you that in my business career I have hired any number of minorities, I have promoted them, mentored them and sometimes fired them (even though I hate firing people). But I always treated them equally. I have been rewarded in ways too numerous to count. Some of them I have helped make wealthy. I say helped because I only opened a door, they walked through and got the job done. But I learned very early from my Dad that bigotry and racism were evil and not to be tolerated. And that was one of the greatest gifts he ever gave me. Affirmative Action is racism. You can call it anything you like, it's racism.

Just BTW, what NBA games do you watch? I see more blacks hitting 3 pointers than whites.

Now, Now!
Lying, indeed!

There's no need to lie when it's perfectly permissable for men to check the "female" box on applications. And vice-versa.

We can use the restrooms of our choice, now too, well at least they can at my husband's work, a big aerospace firm. Any transgendered, transvestite or otherwise oppo can use either bathroom. Of course, my husband won't use the bathrooms anymore...

In recent times, we've learned that maleness and femaleness all depends on how you feel, not on how your sexual organs turned out. Ever feel miffed? Female! Ever feel competitive? Male!

Need to be black? Feel like an African-American and check that box! Feel as if you're of hispanic origin? The hispanic orign box is waiting for you. Feeling caucasian or white? You know the drill. Asian? Go on...

Want health benefits for your friend? You're now gay! Need a minority scholarship? Pacific Islander - oh yeah!

Who's to dispute how we feeeel?

Become a Male Lesbian....
yup, us heterosexual males now have a new title and a double-claim for preference: we now are male lesbians. We are women "trapped" in male bodies except that we are gay too, hence we are sexually attracted to women.

And as our gender is what we define it to be and our sexual orientation our choice with anyone who questions either being homophobic or worse. Like female lesbians, if we want to grope the cute girl at the dance, it is our legal right to do so; like women and gays, we are entitled to affirmative advancement over others.

Yep, we is male lesbians. Now all we gotta do is unlearn a lifetime of having to be twice as good as anyone else as we now get all the perks of society for free.

Mr. Right
My response to your first post, and saying that it was sarcastic, was based solely on your NBA and NFL analogy. It's an analogy I've heard so much when discussing AA that now I simply joke about it so I won't be angry. But that's me. I'll have to deal with it.

Mr. Right, if all people were color blind and looked at performance and character like you (I have no reason to doubt you), then their would be no need for affirmative action. But discrimination still exists, and most of the time it may be subconscious. I'm sure you read my 2:06 and 3:07 posts.

But my biggest grievance with AA is how it's viewed by white people. Usually when talking about quotas, I rarely here of more than 10% of jobs being set aside for a minorities (including women). If you're hiring for 10 positions and let's say 2 (20%) are set aside for minorities, there's still 8 positions you're competing for. It can be 20 white males competing for 1 of the 10 positions, but if they don't get one, they'll automatically assume the 2 minorities stopped them from getting hired. If you don't believe me, reference the example Mike Adams gave concerning the black female student whom everyone (white students) assumed received her scholarship because of AA. Isn't this type of thinking prejudicial in nature? Wouldn't it be wrong for me to assume that my boss received his position because of a legacy, or that he's only successful because of the "good ole boy" system? The fact that students would look at her and assume that not 1 black student could be admitted base on qualifications is the underlining reason that many feel that AA is still necessary.

But Mr. Right, I probably agree with you on this issue moreso than you think. Maybe one day I'll have the faith that racism (and I'm talking racism that goes both ways) is not as pervasive in this nation as I believe it is. Take care.

PREVIOUS POST
It's getting early, and my attention to detail is not what it should be. In my last post I see I made a few grammatical errors. Normally I wouldn't even worry about it, but being a black man who'se somewhat defending AA, I wanted to let the bloggers know I'm aware of the mistakes. (Maybe I'm paranoid too.)

Priceless, PriceyInTheOC
Now that you mention it, I DO feel like a black lesbian trapped in a white man's body...

Excellent article Mike
For years I have asked whites and blacks a simple question, "If we want to get rid of racism, why is everyone okay with affirmative action?" Racism in any form, in preference of any skin color is wrong in my opinion- regardless of the "good" intentions behind it. Those low standards Mike mentions are dreadfully true when you look at how racism in the guise of affirmative action victimizes an entire group of people, even those who want nothing to do with it. The merit based achievements of minorities are irrelevant and sadly they are told, "You don't need to try harder" or "It doesn't matter how well you did." What we as a society get is an entire group of people that feel entitled to expect more opportunities and benefits based on little to no effort outside of declaring their race. That is a dangerous precedent and we are seeing the fruits of that in high dropout rates in school, 70%+ of black children born out of wedlock, high multiple offender and imprisonment rates for young black males, etc...because we as a society say, "Because we don't think you can do it on your own, we'll push you through at the disadvantage of other non-minority individuals." Affirmative action is nothing more than institutional racism- plain and simple. Without any expectations of greatness, aptitude or ability we have propagated the mentality among minorities that even though as children they dream great things we constantly tell them as they grow older "You aren't good enough."

Simple solution...
...to tilt the AA scales. If you were born in the U.S.A., just check the Native American box.

Sandman
Does this mean you're desirous of a beautiful black woman?

Clinton Fan
You are probably correct in that we agree more than not on this issue but the biggest problem I have with AA and with quotas is that they really hurt the people who they are most supposed to help. Just like welfare has created a permanent under-class of cyclic poverty, so does the quota system create a permanent dependency. As an example, the black middle class was growing faster, as a percent of black population, before quotas than after.

I must confess that in the 60's and 70's, after civil rights but before quotas, when I saw a minority in a position of authority or prestige, I knew that that person was supremely qualified because they probably had to overcome significant racism and bigotry to get there. Since quotas, I'd like to assume that a minority in that position is qualified but I can't be sure. This person may be the token. So my level of trust has been undermined - my opinion of minorities hasn't changed but my perception of where one is placed and why certainly has. I may be overly optimistic here but I'd like to believe that if we had just left well enough alone after the passage of the civil rights act that the market forces would have promoted minorities that were worthy. Those promotions would also have provided incentive to young minority students. As it is, there is no need to excell, mediocrity will get the same reward as diligence and excellence. How can that possibly be good for minorities?

Savage99
sorry, off topic remark:
Savage, I like the name, the model 99 was my grandfather's favorite rifle

AA
I really don't know what to think on Affirmative Action. As a white male from a white state, I've never been confronted with it in either good or bad. In principle, I think a man should be judged on his merits, not on the color of his skin. I do believe that if blacks and other minorities would make a bigger effort to merge with mainstream America, they'd have fewer problems: for example, the Irish and Italians had similar problems, before they merged.

Whole problem with US affirmative action
It was copied from India's--which was also a failure. India's "reservations" policy was supposed to address centuries (millenia) of societal discrimination against scheduled castes and tribes. In 1989, this was expanded to include "other backward castes" (also included Muslims, who never suffered from discrimination in the first place) incorporating a MAJORITY of the population (even worse, the data for the 1989 law was the 1921 (26 years pre-Partition) census which was meaningless even by 1931 (let alone 42 years POST-Partition).

Mainer-in-exile, you hit it on the nail. The method of hiring/promotion should be by merit, not colour/race (or in India's case, caste).

I have some thoughts on this
on my blog. See my article "Some Thoughts on Diversity". It's worth a minute of your time.

http://heartlandpatriot.townhall.com

Everyone ignores Affirmative Action
when it comes to medicine, engineering, and aviation.

Would one of our resident liberals volunteer an explanation?

A funn thing...
In a local new cast about five years ago, there was a story about a person in South Africa. This person was dark skinned. The news person wanted to mention this fact, but because of the current in PC, had some problem and ended up calling him an "African-American living in Africa." As far as anyone could find out, this person had never been off the continent of Africa.

You wanna feel discriminated against?
Try being a 52 year old white male trying to find a job these days!

Ironically, I was saved from eternal unemployment by a former boss and long time friend, a black man by coincidence.

Someone pointed out that people like to hang out with others of their own race. But I believe it has nothing to do with race, and more to do with personal interests, class status and culture. Go to any biker rally (not those yuppie biker events, a real biker event) and you'll see black and white bikers getting along and having a good time. Why? Because they share a common love of motorcycles.

White kids who act black hang out with and are accepted by black kids, and black people who are considered white wannabe's by other blacks have no problem hanging out or moving into white neighborhoods. Nobody in my neighborhood would want a Section 8 family moving into our area, but we have no problem at all with the responsible black families who live here.

Bottom line, it's class, not race, that determines how people get treated. Except, of course, for the super racists, but most of us wouldn't want them in our neighborhoods either.

AA - the downfall of American industry..
One of the reasons that USWEST collapsed was due to the implementation of AA - eliminating discrimination based on capabilities and/or willingness to perform and suppressing the ability to fire those who weren't willing to perform by increasing the costs of firing those who qualify for "protected status". The real objective is to ensure that mediocre "talent & effort" (the dumbing down of America) becomes and remains employed.
While an employee of USWEST, I reported to a Japanese American gentleman who was quite intelligent & performed quite well (though he was an avid fan of the leftist process of affirmative action and the anti-straight white male workshops). The poor guy became a victim of AA as Asians were not given minority status as most were quite intelligent and had a good work ethic - in many cases suffering more discrimination than straight white males.
The group that he worked in was taken over by Femi Nazi’s qualifying as "minorities" - the leader being polish (qualified as a Hispanic due to the fact that her birth took place while her military family was stationed in the islands). He became a thorn in their sides as he unwittingly exposed a "conspiracy" within the group, thus, they fired him before he exposed the "conspiracy" (they were making attempts to have a system fail so that they could move the functionality of the system into a different system overwhich they had full control (though it wasn't capable of handling the necessary modules) so as to gain more power within the company). While it took him about 6 months, he did regain employment within USWest and shortly after QWEST took over, the Femi Nazis retired as QWEST was about to disband the group as "excess bagagge".

Affirmative action....phooey
Mike Adams said: "That is precisely the opposite of what is happening with affirmative action. By lowering the bar and (in the short-term) making things easier for minorities, we guarantee persistent gaps in achievement. President Bush calls this the "soft bigotry" of low expectations. I prefer to call it the "hard reality" of low expectations".

Vicki says: Again, as a university student I see everyday that this is all too true. I do not believe for one minute that when the first Black schools (including colleges) were allowed to open and educate that their goal was to coddle the students. In fact, there was a clear understanding that these Black students would have to work harder, do better on tests and truly excell in order to prove that they too had what it takes to deserve education. Now, if you come from a minority you are coddled, cuddled and given far too much slack. "OHHHH, it's too haaarrddd", has become the whine of too many students and in order to move them through, the bar is lowered and now we have students in high school that cannot pass basis math required for graduation. And what about that Ebonics issue a few years back? HUH? Everyone was suppose to dumb down the english language in order to talk street slang? Currently in class it is students that want to write their term papers using the same slang they use for text messaging. English professors now include, in their syllabus, the instruction that you cannot use text message slang or spelling when you write papers. Why should that even have to be explained? The founders of Black education must be rolling in their graves to see how guilty-feeling Whites have lowered the standards of learning and by doing so have practically enslaved Blacks once again, only this time their chains are poverty and ignorance. Affirmative action is actually much more damaging to minorities than the absence of affirmative action. After all, if people are not required to rise to the top, to strive for success and achievement, then most likely they won't.


Thoughful but not quite right
Sir,
Your thoughts below can only be true if you believe that you have a "right" to any particular job rather than an opportunity to "compete" for the job. That government steps in and denies a man the "right" to hire whom he chooses and compels him to hire you is not equality, fairness, or justice. You should be ashamed to be employed under those circumstances. If the prospective employer can make a profit as a bigot then who is to compel him to behave any differently. He has a much "right" to be a bigot as you do to be a "clinton fan".

clinton fan writes: Tuesday, November, 14, 2006 2:06 AM
AA MAY BE NECESSARY
I'm not really big on affirmative action (although I do agree with it), but I'm not going to say it's not necessary either. It seems that everyone is speaking from personal experience, so let me throw my two cents in. I'm a black (or African-American) male with a college degree who'se been in the work force for 12 years. I see white people receiving positions and promotions that they're not qualified for, and it's not because the person doing the hiring is racist. The person doing the hiring may simply be more "familiar" with another white person. I'll put it like this. If my boss likes country music, is a nascar fan, and likes hunting and fishing, it's a good chance we'll never see each other outside of work. On the other hand, if I like those things also, we might bond outside the job. This gives me an advantage come promotion time, and it has nothing to do with job qualifications. Now because this isn't a politically correct website, let me be honest. People tend to associate with people of their on race. If you don't believe this, just check out church on Sunday. Therefore if white people are doing the hiring, sometimes black people will miss out because we're not a part of the same social setting. I have more I can (and probably will) add, but I'll just post this for now.

Clinton Fan
Re-examine your (paraphrased)statement that "The fact that students would look at her and believe not 1 black student could be admitted based on her qualifications is why many people believe AA is still necessary" This statement is the best argument AGAINST AA, not for it. AA is the excuse a bigot uses to smear black people who ARE in their position because of merit. People are people and white folks are just as likely to try to explain their own inadequacies on some outside situation. Blacks cry racism when none exits. My favorite law says "Never attribute to malice any action which can be adequately explained by stupidity" Pistol's corollary is "Never attribute to racism any action which can be adequately explained by malice". I take a cheap shot in a basketball game, i'm taking it from a cheap shot artist, not a black. A black man loses a promotion due to white nepotism, he probably would have been treated no better if he were white. Some people are just naturally malignant.

Clinton Fan
I want you to appreciate how disorienting it is for someone like me (late 50's, white, conservative) to agree with -- no, not with a black man, THAT's not a problem -- but with someone who calls himself "clinton fan". Ow! Ow! The horror!

heh heh heh

I think that you are near something important when it comes to what might be termed "culture" -- especially in a small shop. I don't agree all the way, but there's something here that can't be dismissed simply, I think.

In a recent gig, I worked the metal detector at Juvenile and Domestic Relations court. One thing I noticed was that there are a lot of different subtle cultural "shibboleths". SOME white people think that it's impolite NOT to look someone in the eye. I would venture to GUESS that some black people think it's impolite to look someone in the eye. Some people are effusive and open about emotions. They can't talk to you without touching you, they can't listen without interjecting little grunts and "oh my"s and so one. Others think it's impolite to make any noise while someone else is speaking.

Amsuingly, I found that I got along really well with older black grandmotherly types. In no time we were calling each other "honey" and God blessing each other and laughing together. (I think a lot of that was THEIR skill at putting ME at ease. I mean YOU try running a metal detecting wand across somebody's ample grandmotherly bosom, and hearing the underwire on their bra set it off, and you both know what it is and you both know somebody's got to do a search here .....)

So blackness and whiteness are not just one thing, but a horde of little signals, styles, mannerisms, expectations. And when there is a variance in these things, a miscue, a stutter-step, there is a momentary discomfort and anxiety, and an chance either to CHOOSE to overcome -- if may indulge in a little kumbaya, to reach across the differences --- or not.

I guess I still think the prudent path is to learn the language and style of the dominant culture in the place where you are. In court, I had to learn and be open to a variety of styles. If I wanted to work, say, on Wall Street, I'd learn the culture and style there.

Sometimes it comes down to which unfairness is more acceptable - AA or having to adapt outside one's natural behavior... Maybe. I don't know.

CATATTACK
While your point about the sub titles is well taken, i disagree with your thoughts that everyone should just be called Americans. As mentioned above by Bigbelly, Muslims are not, do not and never will be Americans. Even though we are all creatures of one God, Muslims brains are wired differently than Americans. Why do you think they find it an acceptable way of life when they tell some little kid to strap on a vest and blow themselves and everyone around them to pieces. Muslims are sick sick people and your thoughts I'm sure were well intentioned, but referring to Muslims as Americans was a discredit to those who died on 9/11 and our military troops fighting in the Middle East.

Hispanics? illegal aliens, don't even get me started on that topic.

Clinton Fan, no reason to be paranoid. But if you truly are a Clinton fan you more than likely already have enough problems to deal with trying to figure out reality.

Mr. Adams, I have not been a big fan of yours of late, but your column on affirmative action is right on target and is a topic that needs to be addressed, both by Whites and Blacks. For Whites for the obvious reasons, the white male is without question been discriminated against for the past thirty years. Proud educated blacks should feel offended by AA if they feel that the only reason they were admitted to a school, given a job or a promotion was based not on their qualification but solely on the color of their skin.

As a resident of Michigan the overwhelming approval of prop 2 was the voters of Michigan being the voice of voters of any state USA when it comes to their thoughts regarding affirmative action. Michigan university for what ever reason feels that their credentials gives them the right to disregard the voice of Michigan voters, and to challenge the election results that reversed AA in Michigan. The rumblings of dissent from both alumni and non alumni are already beginning to be heard in Michigan from those who are upset at the University's continued support for AA. There is one way that would get the University's attention though, and that would be if those who make large, regular donations to the school coffers sent their check in this year with the payable amount only being for one dollar, or else just simply fail to send any check at all. This I'm sure would get someones attention and and possible soften the administrators position on feeling the need to be opposed to the idea that everyone applying for admission to the school is on a level playing field right from the start. At this point, Michigan University and their administrators just plain SUCK, and in no way do they represent the citizens and voters of Michigan. That is except for our Uncle Tom Governor, Jennifer Granholm who feels that whites should have a DISADVANTAGE when it comes to applying for jobs and or admission into schools in the state of Michigan.

hntr admin
http://www.headsneedtoroll.org

hurt by affirmative action
My husband is in his late 60's, an age when in his prime, affirmitive action was really getting going. First, after he graduated from college. he applied for the foreign service and outrightly was told that he was the wrong color. Later, he twice lost promotions to black females( known as two-fers) only to not only not getting the position and the money but had to do the job since the females were not ready for positions of that responsibility, Perhaps some time they would be ready but think of the damage done by putting them in just to reach quotos.

ldurst1@verizon.net
Affirmative Action, which are Anti-_White, Anti- Oriental discrimination.

Our federal Government uses the tax money to support forty, yes 40, Black Colleges in America. these Black Colletes does not have quotoes requiring so many white or Oriental Students

The sad thing is, all 40 Black Colleges are providing sub-standard education, and teaches RACISM. Also, Crime and cheating is at a crisis stage at the Black Colleges.

In addition to the ALLL BLACK COLLEGES. THE GOVERNMENT REQUIRES QUOTAS FOR ALL COLLEGES, INSURING THAT UNQUALAFIED BLACK STUDENTS, ARE SENT TO COLLEGES, WHILE HIGHLY QUALIFIED WHITE AND ORIENTAL STUDENTS ARE DENIED ADMISSION.

WAKE UP AMERICA.

STOP THE REVERSE DISCRIMINATION.

WHY DO WE ALLOW BLACK CONGRESSIONAL CAUCUS, WHEN THE POLITICIANS, BY LAW ARE REQUIRED TO REPRESENT ALL CITIZENS?
LET'S DEMAND THAT THESE RACIST. BLACK ORGANIZATIONS BE DISBANED, AND OUTLAWED.

HOW CAN WE HAVE BLACK MISS AMERICA AND BLACK TV NETWORKS, BUT WHITE GROUPS ARE ILLEGAL.
SPEAK UP. WHITE AMERICA AND ORIENTAL AMERICANS HAVE BEEN WIMPS TOO LONG. DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS FOR WHITES.

LEN

ldurst1@verizon.net
Affirmative Action, which are Anti-_White, Anti- Oriental discrimination.

Our federal Government uses the tax money to support forty, yes 40, Black Colleges in America. these Black Colletes does not have quotoes requiring so many white or Oriental Students

The sad thing is, all 40 Black Colleges are providing sub-standard education, and teaches RACISM. Also, Crime and cheating is at a crisis stage at the Black Colleges.

In addition to the ALLL BLACK COLLEGES. THE GOVERNMENT REQUIRES QUOTAS FOR ALL COLLEGES, INSURING THAT UNQUALAFIED BLACK STUDENTS, ARE SENT TO COLLEGES, WHILE HIGHLY QUALIFIED WHITE AND ORIENTAL STUDENTS ARE DENIED ADMISSION.

WAKE UP AMERICA.

STOP THE REVERSE DISCRIMINATION.

WHY DO WE ALLOW BLACK CONGRESSIONAL CAUCUS, WHEN THE POLITICIANS, BY LAW ARE REQUIRED TO REPRESENT ALL CITIZENS?
LET'S DEMAND THAT THESE RACIST. BLACK ORGANIZATIONS BE DISBANED, AND OUTLAWED.

HOW CAN WE HAVE BLACK MISS AMERICA AND BLACK TV NETWORKS, BUT WHITE GROUPS ARE ILLEGAL.
SPEAK UP. WHITE AMERICA AND ORIENTAL AMERICANS HAVE BEEN WIMPS TOO LONG. DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS FOR WHITES.

LEN

Mainer-in-exile
Pistol and Savage99 are the same poster. There was some kind of mixup, which seems to be in the process of being resolved by the TH handlers. And yes, the Savage model 99 was arguably the most advanced rifle in the world in 1895 when designed, and is still competitive today. Demand vs manufacturing costs have put it out of production, but i have hopes that CNC machines will revive it, as has been true of many classic old designs that were labor intensive. I own 5 of them, in calibers .22 Savage HI-Power, .250/3000, .300 Savage (my favorite), .308 Winchester, and .375 Winchester.

Hi Mad Dawg
Mad Dawg said: I guess I still think the prudent path is to learn the language and style of the dominant culture in the place where you are. In court, I had to learn and be open to a variety of styles. If I wanted to work, say, on Wall Street, I'd learn the culture and style there.

Vicki says: That is an interesting point. Considering that the liberal school of thought on almost all campuses is "TOLERANCE", you would think that this would be an aspect taught. But actually what they mean is that white must be tolerant of all other cultures and races but all other cultures and races do not have to express the same tolerance. And all you have to do is scream "racism" and whether there is actually the presence of racism or not, there is likely to be a change made in favor of the screamer. Cultural understanding, including the social nuances, would be much more valuable in the long term and teach people how to behave in different circumstances so that they would behave with respect for others and dignity for themselves.

Sexual AA...
is not dead yet either; and, it is just as destructive.

I worked with a female manager who left a meeting early because "she had to interview some skirts and heels". She explained that she had "a female deficiency" in her staff, according to HR; and, that she was therefore only provided with female candidates to interview for an open position.

The most destructive aspect of this situation was that it left her wondering whether she had gotten her position because her supervisor had only been permitted to interview female candidates.

Reverse Discrimination
Is the stupidest term I have ever heard. Discrimination is discrimination, period.

clinton fan
You are on the receiving end of office politics. I worked for a similarly sized company in a male dominated industry. I was quickly elected by my management peers to take a leadership role reporting to the board of directors. I was the only woman on the committee for a long time. I was highly effective, as evidenced by raises and bonuses received during that period. I don't golf or enjoy sports, therefore my opportunities to socialize outside of work were limited. So I made it my goal to work tirelessly to increase profitability and make my boss look good. I was usually one of the first ones in each morning and one of the last ones to leave each evening. This plan worked like a charm until the boss started hiring his compadres from his previous employer. In short order, my position on the org chart was difficult to decipher and I no longer reported to my boss, instead reporting to a newly hired compadre with a very strong motive to edge me out. He succeeded and I left for greener pastures. I now know that my old boss and all his compadres were let go 6 short months later as their new fomula for profitability sucked the life out of a small business. Moral of the story - I don't think I was hired to fill an estrogen void, and I don't think I was edged out for that reason either. I was done in by a really strong existing network that I couldn't break into. Really good employees are hard to find and a good network is invaluable. If you are all that you say you are, then take your show on the road, I'm sure there is better match for you out there.

they don't WANT competition
People who support AA do not want competition. They want socialism. They want to punish successful people and reward the losers of society. They want the government to regulate everything and make it all equal for every person. Great motivation to achieve more, right? Yeah, just ask the Chinese. No wonder we're raising a generation of idiots.

P.S. Clinton-fan: who's means who is; whose is who possessive; who'se is not a word. I admire your ability to carry on an intelligent conversation but I am also a grammar junkie. I would have to add clear written and verbal communication to MacZed's list of things one needs to advance.

My Race
"I think if the sub-title was removed from all groups and we were just called "Americans" we would feel much more like a whole community than separate groups and there would be less racial discrimination. "

I agree.

Lately, when I fill out applications or forms, I check the "Native American" box. Since I was born in this country, I am a native...

Of course, I went to Texas A&M University, so I could call myself an "Agro-American"...

they don't WANT competition
People who support AA do not want competition, they want socialism. They want to punish those who are successful and reward the losers. Liberals want the government to lesgislate equality for all at the expense of the winners. Great motivation to achieve, right? No wonder we are raising a generation of idiots.

Clinton-fan: who's means who is; whose is who possessive; who'se is not a word. MacZed should add clear written and verbal communication to his list of things one needs to succeed. You are probably a very intelligent and capable person, but to a grammar junkie like myself your clear arguments are muddied by your poor spelling.

Affirmative Action
One of these days a caucasian American should apply for a job or admission to a program controlled by Affirmative Action, and where it asks "Race", he or she should put down "Black".

And when he or she comes face to face with someone who says their claim to be "Black" is clearly false, he or she should then say "Prove I'm not Black".

That would put the institution in the untenable and indefensible position of coming up with a definition of "Black", which hasn't existed in American law for decades.

please pardon
the double post. I'm having computer problems.

Liberals are never satisfied
clinton fan writes:

"If my boss likes country music, is a nascar fan, and likes hunting and fishing, it's a good chance we'll never see each other outside of work. On the other hand, if I like those things also, we might bond outside the job. This gives me an advantage come promotion time, and it has nothing to do with job qualifications. Now because this isn't a politically correct website, let me be honest. People tend to associate with people of their on race."

Affirmative Action does not address country music, NASCAR, hunting, fishing, or any other hobbies. It addresses race. Period.

clinton fan and his ilk won't be satisfied until the government classifies every tiny aspect of a candidate's persona as an excuse to sue for discrimination. Either that or they have stereotyped these individual characteristics as "white" so they make an argument by extension that they are covered by Affirmative Action, thus engaging the very kind of bigotry that AA was intended to remedy.

These kinds of arguments treat the repeal of AA as if it were the same as the repeal of the the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other subsequent EEO measures, which it is not. That's why AA is a separate law.

A. A. is for WOMEN!
Mainer in Exile wrote:

> As a white male from a white state,
> I've never been confronted with it

Right....

As a white male from the same "white" state, I can assure you that I have. For women.

Maine has a nice touch -- letting women be prison guards in MALE prisons. We can't have a male coach of the women's college basketball team but we must have affirmative action for female prison guards...

0h, in Maine, a female police officer only has to run half as fast as a male police officer.

We aren't lowering standards. Right....

All men created equal?
Why should I consider a person who has to have their standards lowered in order to compete with me my equal?

Comment re: AA
As retired "Fed", the routine on promotions was if you were to select a person who was not a minority you had to specify how and why the minority was not selected.

Selection of the minority required no explanation and it was only necessary for them to be ON the list not to be near the top of it.

The effect indeed was to cause subordinates ( regardless of their background) to wonder about the selection.


Appearance of intelligence:
To Pirate ( and others)

1.Bill of Attainder

Definition: A legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial.
- notice the 'd' in 'attainder'; con't consider it a typo since you spelled it wrong more than once.

2.Many mistakes in grammar, spelling,
usage,punctuation. examples:

gender: refers to usage in english grammar and is not a substitute for 'sex'. Therefore 'male' is NOT your gender, but your sex.

'you're' and 'your' are not interchangeable.

I could go on (and on) but time is limited and I hope the point is made.

PS: I agree that AA is discrimination
and I'm glad I didn't see (did I just miss it?) the use of"reverse discrimination"

AA


I was a student at UCSD in the mid 70's. The best student applicants to medical school were continually passed over in favor of much less qualified minority students. This was no secret. All white males knew the score. The result is that I personally use white male physicans of my vintage. They had to be the best and brightest to have over come the racist admission policies of the University of California.

Lost Promition to 'Anti-Discrimination'
Days after being forced to sign my multi-billion dollar company's annual affidavit that discriminatory hiring practices will not be tolerated, I lost a job promotion because - you guessed it - HR deemed that a woman needed to fill the role. I and my male peers - all of whom had years of experience on a highly-technical, high-value ongoing project - were passed over in favor of a clueless twit from a completely unrelated department. She immediately realized she's out of her league and responds day-to-day by alternately being syrupy/flirty or defensive/angry. Predictably, the team is dissolving as I and my co-workers leave for jobs outside the company, and the project as a whole is suffering. The company is quickly losing its competitive advantage over this stupid hiring decision. Talk about penny wise, pound foolish!

Further Comments

Re the AA discussion , see LeShawn Barber's column on today's Townhall. See her take as a Black female.

Mike's right in a way
Affirmative action in theory doesn’t bear any resemblance to affirmative action in reality. And that’s the problem. Other than that, I can give a one word response to why Mike switched from being a left-wing democrat to a right-wing Republican: convenience. One side served him when he was young and now the other serves him better so he switched. I’m wary about converts who harbor no lingering doubts. It’s natural to change with time, but if a thing is well founded it doesn’t shift easily. And if beliefs aren’t well founded the first time, it’s not likely the will be later. Still Mike is a truly funny writer.

Theory & practice
"In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is."

Keep this always in mind, Grasshopper.

best article in a long time
Good to read an inciteful article from Adams in which he actually steers clear of his typical sardonic satire. I will say its his best in a while, and I do enjoy his usual humor.

To MikeR: Winston (not Ward) Churchill said : "Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains." The gist is that over time the ideals of youth cave to reality. Some of our most eloquent conservative representatives have crossed over from liberalism, bringing with them first-hand knowledge of its failures, men such as Ronald Reagan. I do not doubt Adam's sincerity.

The Only Thing I Know
Adams is right when he says MLK wanted colorblindness on this issue. I beleive the Civil Rights act was the start of how everyone deserved a fair shot. It was supposed to create something good. In that regard,I just see the dumbing down of all people when it comes to acheivements. Scholarships,jobs,opportunities should be based on an individual's accomlishments and work ethic. Unfortunately, there is that AA, which spoils it for the rest of the world. It is never going to be an equal playing field and I am certain that MLK is turning over in his grave. Did you ever hear him say, "Give me a job,because my anscestor's were slaves?" "Give me a job because I have an absent father,my ancestor's were slaves?" It goes that way with all races...Hard work is rewarded in this country and exceptions should not be made. Core values are what makes people who they are, and if those are lost,don't give people a pass. Make them accountable. AA is just another way of saying "poor me..."

Everyone is harmed by AA
Just as with any profession, there are good & bad doctors just like there are good and bad mechanics or plumbers or attornies, etc.
Prior to AA, If you found a woman doctor or a black doctor you could be certain they were good doctors because they had to meet the higest standards.
Today, I just can't help being one of the bigots who just will not go to a doctor who is a woman or black or hire a black attorney because I assume their only qualification is their color or sex.
All it took to cause this irrational fear was a botched operation by a black Dr. and a woman Dr. proscribing medication the pharmacist warned would kill a man it my condition if I had taken it.
And they wonder why malpractice insurance is so high?

Mind-numbingly stupid
"Affirmative action in theory bears no resemblance to affirmative action in reality."

Failed ideas like AA are so mind-numbingly stupid that, in the face of their results, it's mystifying how anyone can still believe they are possible. Like Orwell said, only the highly intelligent would think so.

15% question?
I totally disagree with affirmative action. I'd like to know why a segment of the US population that comprises just 15% of the total population (and they are not even the most numerous minority anymore, Hispanics are) has such a political pull or effect on the rest of the country. The only thing I can figure is the collective guilt which is routinely magnified and expressed by the Democrats.

Please Don't Go There!
It was '66 when I was a Fire Prevention Inspector in Ohio. I had just been assigned a old inner city district to my case load. One serious code violator was a paper recycling operation in a tenderbox former warehouse. I wrote up the company on two pages of fire code violations, and gave them two weeks to rectify v the most urgent items, and 30 days for the rest.

On my two week re-inspection I found the worst item still in violation. The loading dock area looked like a tornato had hit the place. Recycled paper stock was everywhere just waiting for a source of ignition. I took pictures, and then went to the office to "get real" with management.

When I threatened to file a shut down order, the manager asked me to look out of the his office window at a black forklift operator. He said, "There's our problem. That guy has been with us for about six months. He has a real attitude. I've warned him to stop speeding around, and tearing open those processed paper bundles on the loading dock. But, as you see he cares less about what I say." I asked why the man wasn't fired. The manager then went into a incredible listing of items to be followed in order to take that action against a minority employee. First, a local office of NAACP had to be called, and a grevance meeting held with their personel, company management, and the subject. A three stike rule was to be implemented, along with similar meetings, and written warnings.

In effect it would take longer than 30 days to extricate that source of the problem. I told the manager that I could not give him any slack, and that fire code enforcement isn't waived because of race, or some affirmitive action policy. I then wrote the company up again for a second notice of code violations, and if the problem wasn't illiminated in another week, shut down proceedures would be sought.

On return a week later, I found the effected areas ship shape. The manager came up to me smiling. He said, "Looks like a different place doesn't it?" I said how did you do it? He pointed to a elderly black gentleman across the loading dock, and said, "Mr. Ramsey has been our janitor here for about three years. I made him forman, and he fired him!"

As for the issue of female firefighters. I'm sure there are good ones out there. Some of them with anchors on their arms could probably out bench press me. There's more to the brotherhood of firefighters than free weights folks.

My ire rose when I saw that Reader's Digest PC cover story about a female fire service recruit's experience. You may have seen her on that posed cover shot in her "turn out gear" looking thoughtful, upward, and onward.

In the article she tells about her first "working fire", and how she followed another firefighter advancing a charged nozzle up a stairway. The rookie said she heard the call for "More line!" And she didn't know whether that meant to help advance the present hose, or to go get another one!

One, that says crap about the Fire Academy she graduated from.

Two, God help the crew she rides with!

Three, I still wonder how many times a female has drug a downed 200+ pound brother firefighter, with both wearing a self contained breathing pack, and turn out gear from a burning building.

Four, how many marriages have gone by the way side as result of the he / she crews on 24 hour overnighters every shift? [Don't give me that seperate sleeping and bath facilities crock].

But, yes Virginia, if Rodney can design ladies fashions, you most certainly have the right to be a firefighter.


jcthomasva
Actually, you are so right that I can’t deny it. Liberalism is a passage of youth that should mature into conservatism. In Mike’s case, I get annoyed when he laments that he can’t go to war and fight terrorists because he’s too old. Youth and liberalism didn’t keep me out of war. In fact, maybe it was the invincibility of youth that made me so blithe to the risk and curious about the experience. I suspect many young people enlist under similar circumstance.

School Hires
My six year old son who has not had a male teacher/provider yet in elementary school (or daycare) here in Illinois.

During a parent-teacher conference last week I shared with my son's female teacher that over the past two years I had observed only one male employee at the school - a hispanic janitor.

I also shared the national trend that boys are "falling behind" academically. That I want my son to excel academically.

The female teacher stated that there are not gender issues in the school. She added that the gym teacher is male.

Denial is not just a river in Africa.

AA experience
I'm a white woman married to a black man. He is very anti-AA. He believes IF any consideration should be given for college, it would have to be purely economical. we have plenty of friends FROM Africa, who have loads of money, and their kids will have more opps than 90% of white kids here.
when i lived in los angeles, i got a teaching job under AA. i am bilingual, and they "needed" to hire white people, the principal told me near the end of the year. incredible. even tho i benefited, i thought it was horrible to do that to kids. in other words, they didn't hire the BEST person for the job, but the color they needed. i quit after one year.

Affirmative Action
Mike, Affirmative Action was instituted under a Republican President--Richard Nixon. I taught African-American students in Atlanta for 12 years--I am White. There was a time when I loathed the concept of AA and I accused it of being State and National sponsored discrimination. It is. Now I see a burgeoning middle class of African-Americans and I see more and more assimilation and acceptance into the mainstream of the American culture. Assimilation by the African-Americans natural flow into the benefits accrued through attainment of the "American Dream". Acceptance by White people that skin color is not as important as character, achievement, and the comfort both groups share with mutual security in neighborhoods where the focus is on a better life. AA has had a positive impact; it has torn down walls of bigotry that needed tearing down. I have no idea how many African-Americans live in my neighborhood--that thought never enters my mind.

Death of Affirmative Action is coming
Thanks to Ward Connerly, who has labored so long and hard, Michigan denied the chance to vote in 2004, did vote in 2006 to eliminate racial discrimination.
The death of so-called Affirmative Action is spreading and one day will allow my competent friends, who happen to be tan or black skinned to be recognized for what they can do on the basis of merit and not on color.

Likewise, actions against yellow and white skinned folks aimed at making it harder for them to compete will also be eliminated.

With 2/3 of black folks doing very well it is going to be harder for Jessie to extort funds to fight for what he claims are 'his people'.

Thanks to Mike Adams and so many here who have written to add useful notes.

ward churchill as 7up


the un-indian.


jejejejejejejeje

This is all very simple
It boils down to the simplest of conditioning, the stuff you learned in the first chapter of your "Introduction to Psychology" book.

If you tell a whole class of people that they can do nothing and still get all the benefits of hard work, you are simply conditioning them to expect this rationale to apply to every area of their life. So if they cannot get into college on merit, we'd better let them in on race. If they can't get a job on merit, we'd better employ them based on race. And where then does it end?

Then everyone is so surprised when the children who have watched all of this take place have no motivation to perform in school, no motivation to go to college, no motivation to train for a job, etc. Why be surprised? We've conditioned them!

Warrior
You make valid points.

But when AA was first challenged in the courts as reverse discrimination it was upheld only because, as the court stated, it was a remedy to centuries of discrimination.

Based on your observations it appears that AA has done its job and it is now time to let go of it so blacks and other minorities can take the next step.

Consider the analogy of a broken leg. If the therapy is going to work, going to be complete, someday the patient has to learn to walk without the crutch.

Ph.D?
Should a Ph.d use terms: "...due to race..." instead of "because of race"; "... white males like me " instead of "white males such as me"??

BIGbelly
"A MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM, THERE IS NO AND NEVER WILL BE ANY AMERICAN MUSLIMS OR MUSLIM AMERICANS JUST LIKE THERE ARE NO FRENCH MUSLIMS OR MUSLIM FRENCH JUST LIKE THERE ARE NO GERMAN MUSLIMS OR MUSLIM GERMANS OR ANY OTHER WESTERN STYLED NATIONALITIES OR DEMOCRACIES FOR THAT MATTER, YOU'RE EITHER MUSLIM OR NOT..."
Just thought I'd share that with you. "


Hmmmm. I don't know about that. My white brother in law (from Milwaukee) wanted to marry his 3rd wife from Indonesia (where he is a geologist) and he was REQUIRED to "become" Muslim in order to marry her. It's just a business deal. He doesn't believe in anything Muslim, but he plays the game because he wanted to marry her. So I guess he's Muslim, but he's really not.....By the way, he also provides the total food provisions for 3 separate villages--do you think that has anything to do with them "allowing" him to be Muslim????

Race preferences
My mother sat on an interview committee to find her replacement when she retired from her teaching position. One of the candidates was a young black woman, who eventually was hired. I remember my mother later said, “Thank God she was actually the most qualified, we would’ve had to hire her anyway.” Kind of sad, isn’t it?

And of course, the white candidates who were seeking the job probably think that they lost out because of race preferences, even though the black woman really was the most qualified. It's pretty much the same situation Dr. Adams described in his article.

And of course, I think it's somewhat relevent to mention that the liberal establishment loves their minorities, but only if those minorities conform to other liberal ideals. Just ask any black or gay conservatives how often they get called "traitors."



rogue
Those corrections were brilliant. Two of the most poignant lines I've read in years. Kudos!

UT Austin
Back in 1990 UT sponsored a "Minorities in Engineering" symposium for high school students interested in attending UT. From my high school, three of us - 2 Filipinos and 1 Hispanic student went. While there, UT Engineering faculty and students described all of the benefits for Hispanic and Black students that would be provided.

After two hours of this, I stood up and asked, "What about Asians?"

The reply floored me. "We don't consider Asians a minority."

I cancelled my College Entrance check for UT when I got home and ended up going to a school where conservative values, scholarship and determinitation were stressed and the color of your skin meant nothing.


Rogue
"Whom among us wouldn't agree with you?"

Argument against "Affirmative Action"
Mike S. Adams says: "A black female student I taught in 1993 summed it up best by saying that although she had been admitted to college on the basis of outstanding grades and test scores, no one believed her. Whites just assumed she was there because of affirmative action. Once a class of people is given credit for something its members did not achieve, individuals in that class forfeit credit for the things they actually did."

That is the best argument against affirmative action I have ever seen/read, and it comes complete with a real-world example. It should be the ONLY argument needed to banish this form of "double discrimination" from our society forever. But of course, it won't be.

AA is only one of many
Affirmative action is only one of the many ways we hurt the entire country, not just minorities. When I arrived in the USA as an immigrant in 1956, there was no affirmative action, no "equal employment opportunity", no bilingual education.......and guess what? We immigrants did just fine. We learned English because we had to in order to survive in an English-speaking nation (yes, there was no question back then about what our "official" language was). We worked hard and we tried to assimilate into that proverbial "melting pot" we had heard so much about. Did prejudice exist? Sure it did. Does it not exist still today despite our molly-coddling the new arrivals? No amount of prejudice can keep a good man down. America embraced and rewarded hard workers, regardless of their national origin. It encouraged them to become Americans and to earn their share of the pie. Immigrants from all over the world thrived under that premise. Today, things are different. Our government makes it easy for immigrants to get along without English and to preserve their heritage, but it also encourages them to lower their standards.....to be satisfied with hand-outs and special privileges instead of striving for higher education and top-notch jobs. Until minorities realize that special treatment works against them.... until we make a giant effort to unify ourselves into one cohesive citizenry.....until we all decide that we are all Americans FIRST....we are going to continue the downslide toward a divisive society with separate cultures that no longer strive for common ground.

AA Away
AA is really just another form of social engineering, based on the psychotic premise that if the racial makeup of any social organization does not mirror the the racial makeup of society the only cause is racism. It's based on the inability do distinguish equal opportunity from equal results. The reason we probably won't see it go away is even more pernicious than the racism it claims to counter. We know the usual suspects who have hijacked the race issue and made a cottage industry out of it. e.g. the Rainbow Coalition has a press conference to claim the HR practices of Coca-Cola are racist. What doesn't get covered is the meeting where Jesse & friends tell the Coke B of D if they hire one of the consultants he reccommends, the boycott goes away( the consultants are Jackson stooges).

The people of Michigan in their collective wisdom decided to outlaw racial preferences, however it is my great fear that the threatened litigation could overturn this. The civil rights establishment will shop the case around until they find a sympathetic judge, like the bozo who ruled against the terrorist surveilance program. This development highlights the difference between libs & cons. We believe in democracy i.e. government by & of the people, libs believe in government by judicial fiat.

Off topic - Pistol, if you want to research the Savage99, check accuratereloading.com, a site with a lot of firearms info(and some pretty good non-PC humor).

Warrior guilty of spurious correlation
Just because Americans of African descent are achieving the American Dream doesn't mean it is due to Affirmative Action. Dr. Thomas Sowell has documented quite nicely the economic gains of Blacks in this country over the past century and has demonstrated that their achievements, if anything, have come in spite of, not because of, Affirmative Action.

wiseone
You, as so many on this site, sound as if you consider yourself some kind of supremist.

Ask yourself why AA was ever implemented in the first place and you will find where the problem really lies. Yes, I think the problem is still widespread. Maybe not as much, but still here.

And tell me, what do you propose the next step for minorities should be, since you are being so insightful??

Your analogy blows. What if you keep coming out of re-hab only to encounter the same people who broke your leg waiting to do it again?? Makes you want to use something besides a crutch.

J

soultion
Let the market decide.

Capitalism works when allowed to function unfettered by such nonsense.

Affirmative Action has shown that the legislation of morality is a fundamentally flawed concept.




Discrimination along political lines
Adams wrote:

"I have simply lost count of the number of times over the years that my colleagues have brought factors such as political affiliation and religion into discussions of job applicants.

"Objections such as "He's too religious" or "He's too much of a family man" or "Her husband plays too dominant a role in their marriage" are simply indefensible."

It's never been mentioned in this context before, that I recall, but it comes as no surprise that the Left habitually discriminates on the basis of politics and religion. This is why, for example, newsrooms are 90% liberal, and university faculties are nearly 100% liberal; the Left black-lists conservatives and Christians.

Just another instance of the "Do as I say, not as I do" Left. They don't believe in liberty; they're incipient tyrants.

Afirmative action in burden baring
In spite of the gains of the last election, the SP media whines that women are underrepresented in Congress at only 16 percent of the total.

Yet, I almost never hear the media or feminist groups whining that women are underrepresented serving in harm's way in Iraq. (Women make up 15 cent of our forces, but only 2 percent of those making the ultimate sacrifice of dying for our country.)

Another factoid: even when counting childbirth as a form of our nation's work, women make up only 13 percent of work (plus birthing) related deaths.

By these measures, at least, women may seem actually to be overrepresented in Congress. :)

Jake
Warrior's own observations indicate that millions of blacks no longer need the crutch.

His observations also indicate that the same society that broke the metaphorical leg will not do it again.

Your defeatist attitude allows you to wallow in your own pessimism. Guys like you are afraid to let go of the crutch because you want an excuse in case you fail. So as long as you can find even one "bigot" who might "break your leg" you demand the right to punish all whites for the acts of a few; the classic definition of a true bigot.

It would never occur to a coward and quitter like you that if some bigot won't give a qualified minority a chance the real loser is, and always has been, the bigot. The qualified minority CAN ALWAYS find opportunity from someone who only wants the best people, regardless of race.

Take a look at Solution's post. You might learn something.

BTW - thanks for the compliment; likening me to "so many others on this site". I appreciate the intelligence of most of the posters on this site and I look forward to reading their opinions every day. I'm proud to be considered one of them.

Clinton fan
I'm sorry that the first responder to your post was rude. I believe that you make a valid point and what you say has been shown to be true. Hiring managers often hire people similar to themselves -- to the detriment of their department and their company.

However, the solution to this is not affirmative action, but better training of hiring managers and large companies have formal training programs that cover this very topic. And, yes, it has also been shown that such training is effective although I wouldn't say that most people eliminate all their biases.

The problem with Affirmative Action is that it can only help a small selection of individuals at the margins at the expense of degrading perceptions for everybody in the group, not to mention resentments caused by such discrimination.

Meanwhile, an entire generation of minority students is stuck in failing schools. The Democrats will always favor the Unions over the Blacks, and thus work to kill programs (like vouchers) that would make a big difference to blacks, but would hurt their Union backers.


Now for some predictions
* People will continue to be fooled into thinking that being in favor of higher pensions for teachers is the same thing as being in favor of higher educational achievement for students.
* Republicans will support voucher programs but make little headway against Democratic blocking their way
* Blacks will continue to overwhelmingly vote in favor of Democrats

If Blacks would switch their party allegiance for even a single election cycle, Democrats would do ANYTHING to win them back.

* But it ain't gonna happen.


My two cents
First of all, let me say that is refreshing to read a candid discussion of affirmative action, because any discussion of race is taboo. I work in a university. Universities have hate speech codes which forbid one to criticize affirmative action - you would be called a racist! Mike has written about this many times.
What moved me to comment is the question about how long is this supposed to last? In the Gratz decision, Sandra Day O'Connor decided that we as a nation would only need AA another 25 years. I don't know where she found that in the Constitution, but I don't find it anywhere in the equal protection clause. Now she is the Chancellor at my law school, College of William and Mary. Her first act of note? To remove the Christian cross from the chapel. William and Mary was founded by Angligans and for many years the Chancellor was the Archbishop of Canterbury. So much for revering both the Constitution and American history. At least she is off the bench.
As for hyphenated Americans, I refuse to call anyone African-American. I am proud to be an American, and anyone who is not can damned well leave. (I am also retired from the Air Force, a Cold War warrior.) The sobriquet African-American is supposed to indicate one's race. However, racial categories are the following: Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid. Racial categories do not refer to countries. So not only is it incorrect it is demeaning to this country to talk about hyphenated Americans, and I refuse to do it.
I remember Thomas Sowell warning us all in the '70;s that affirmative action would cause blacks to be suspected of having achieved their position due to discrimination and take away any credit for their own achievements. He was right then, and he is right now.
As a lawyer who teaches criminal law, I revere our Constitition. I mourn the violence done to it by activist judges. Roe and Gratz and a host of other decisions are just wrong on so many levels. How gratifying to see the same Jennifer Gratz referenced in Sandra Day O'Connor's decision upholding discrimination in Michigan lead the drive for the Prop that will result in outlawing affirmative action in the entire state. Now that is what the Greeks would call irony! As for the BAMN crowd, their cries that ending AA means that we will be going back to discrimination, I think George Orwell said it best in his novel 1984 when he said "The destruction of a language is a beautiful thing."
I counsel young white men who want to go to law school, and I tell them frankly that they have a huge hurdle to overcome because they are white male. This is nothing new to them at this point in their lives, because they have already experienced it in college. This is outrageous. AA needs to end, and Farrakhan, Ranagel, Jackson, Sharpton et al need to go into the trashcan with the rest of the haters!

AA
What was it called when all jobs were based on having white skin. When I grew up the Wash. Post had no problem publishing ads for whites only.

The entire nation had no problem with whites only everything. Sorry, people of color were well represented in the maid-custodial field.

Adams knows the history. Additionally, white women have been the chief beneficiaries of AA.

Where were all the "conservatives" who believed in "merit" before AA. Exactly!



A.A. for Illegals!
If you think A.A. is bad now wait until millions of new unskilled and uneducated amnestied immigrants demand by law your kids' spots in school and further, that you foot the bill. That job you have you thought was yours for good? Uh uh! Why should a company pay you a $50 pkg. when they can make you pay for your replacement's schooling and then pay him a third of what you make? Can't happen? It's happening already. The High Tech and the construction industries a couple of examples.
You know that fellow and his wife who you see going up and down the road picking up cans? Make friends. Maybe they will give you a few tips.

Go some where else.
Rogue & libbygirl ,,, Needed your skills when I was working on my Masters.
When I suggested to my daughter that she attend the University I graduated from, she quickly replied, "No dad, I want to graduate from a University were the people can spell when they receive their degree." Needless to say, she is right as I am an atrocious mangler of the written word. In the 1940's and 50's the Catholic school system pushed you aside if you were from a mixed family or a broken home. I was told point blank as a child, I was not expected to succeed in life. Mixed, to the Sisters meant married outside the Catholic Church to a NON-Catholic! When the Nuns talked to us, they would look past me and talk to the others, not me. Broken home was because my father was a drunk, and left my mother. I was told that some programs were not for me, because I had too much to over-come to succeed in life.

I just never listened to them. I am in my 60's and I have spent a lifetime in the military as well as teaching at a college, doing what people said I could not do. I just never heard a no, and could not understand why I could not do something. So I found a way to do it. I always figured that a door closing was nothing more then finding another door down the road to go through. I had on old Sgt that said to me when I was a young paratrooper, "Life is about looking through the windshield at the road ahead, and not the rear view mirror." So the no's made me work smarter to go ahead to a better place. My daughter asked me way I never claim my Spanish Background? I have always felt that I did not need a special place. If I can not qualify, or they don’t like my look’s… Well I don’t want to be around them. I can and have found something better. So for me, AA was nothing more then and excuse. I’m better then that. My daughter thought about what I said, and replied, “I’m proud of you dad!”

Her statement, to me means, more then any program could ever give me. I love my daughter and I am so proud of her.

It's been long enough.
I am 50 years old. When I was in the 4th grade the school bus that I rode on stopped at the "colored school" to let off all the "colored kids". Then it took all of us "white kids" to the "white school"

Things changed between my 4th grade year and the 5th grade. The "colored school" became the elementary school. From then on all kids regardless of race creed or color attended the same classes.

Now back then affirmative action made sense. The quality of education in most colored schools was inferior to that in the white schools. And had been since they were created, roughly 100 years before.

My 4th grade year is now 50 years in the past.

For the last 5 decades all races have sat in the same classrooms, heard the same lectures, read the same books, and done the same homework.

It seems that by now everybody's education level has to be about equal.

Afirmative action today is nothing but an insult to those who are "helped" by it.

The people who support afirmative action today are racists of the same sort as those who created the colored schools. They think non-whites are not smart enough or are too lazy to compete against whites on an equal footing.

http://www.givemetheinfo.com/blog/blogger.html

An observation
After reading through the posts, I've noticed a few things.

“For these black kids today to even consider asking for reparations with that kind of leg up waiting for them is akin to slappin’ me in the face.”

"Why should I consider a person who has to have their standards lowered in order to compete with me my equal?"

"The result is that I personally use white male physicians of my vintage. They had to be the best and brightest to have over come the racist admission policies of the University of California."

“Today, I just can't help being one of the bigots who just will not go to a doctor who is a woman or black or hire a black attorney because I assume their only qualification is their color or sex.”

Pirate:
“Advocates of Affirmative Retribution need to reflect on one other aspect of the rather bloody history of the British Isles -- the way folk whose blood had been corrupted resolved the matter was to rise up and overthrow the current king and in turn corrupt the blood of those who had been in power before. So if we are to learn from history, it is only a matter of time before the white males organize and seek to affirmatively punish those responsible for their mistreatment.”

Pirate is on target, and I think that the liberals know it. Look, the liberals aren’t stupid. (just ignorant) (at least not all of them) They see where this is leading. They’ve known for a long time. When it does happen, they’ll be right there to say “see, I told you so!”

The Demoncrats are racists who are fostering racism for their own gain.
And it works. Even among Conservatives.

from an academic...
Like Mike, I'm an academic. At my university, I've never seen what he (and so many people who've posted) identify as AA. I am a department chair and have been involved in a number of hires. Not once have I or anyone on the search committee been told--however indirectly--that we had to pick a minority candidate. We come perhaps as close as possible to the "theory" of AA. The "action" that was supposed to be "affirmative" was to make every effort to provide promote a position and bring it to the attention of potential minority applicants.

What does that mean? It means that every effort is made to publicize a job opening in any venue that attracts a minority readership. There are various professional organizations, journals, newsletters, etc.that are aimed at minority populations. All we have to do to satisfy our HR is advertise in these venues.

In an academic hire, there comes a stage when several candidates come to campus, give presentations of their work, meet with department members, administrators, and students, go out to dinner with the search committee, and respond to questions or comments.
Then the search committee has to come up with a recommendation to hire. Suppose we saw four candidates, and could only hire one. HR does require that we write a brief explanation giving our reasons for excluding the other three. This explanation is also part of the "affirmative action" hiring process, which in no way guarantees that a woman or minority memeber will in fact be chosen for the position.

Most academics I know believe that, everything else being equal, it's desirable to have more minority faculty members. I know conservatives generally (although there are exceptions) disagree with this belief. However, 35 years of experience shows me that we try to find the best candidate, regardless of gender or minority status. And remember, I'm up hear in Massachusetts, the capital of the blue universe.


truetolife
You mention that your brother-in-law became a muslim solely to marry a muslim woman from Indonesia. Hopefully he never decides he wants to leave the religion (decides that Islam is not the religion for him for whatever reason) since the adherents to Islam say that an apostate will be killed. Not a very nice ending for what you say was a conversion of convenience...

The truth shall set you free...
It is one of the curious qualities of the human race that it excels in disproportionate degree while under the pressure of necessity, as opposed to circumstances of comparative comfort. Hence the failure of the War on Poverty, and countless other utopian redistributive and social engineering schemes designed to eliminate long-run disparities in economic outcomes.

When the philosophy undergirding Affirmative Action was first foisted unto our traditional American bootstrap-mentality society, it was argued that the lowering of the qualifications bar would only be a temporary necessity. The idea was that AA beneficiaries would simply “grow into their jobs,” once they were ensconced in them (apparently absorbing needed skills and qualifications through osmosis or failure), and that after perhaps a generation of experience with middle-class economic assimilation, AA recipients and their progeny would be indiscernible from the rest of society insofar as their attitudes toward education, achievement, and results were concerned. Then, on that happy day, AA would simply be abandoned by general acclamation, and we would all skip together down the primrose path to Utopian bliss.

Well, a funny thing happened on the path to Utopia when it intersected with the road to reality. Three decades later, anyone with eyes to see knows the truth, and can calculate the price that has been paid for such ill-founded reasoning. Instead of reaching the day when, all objectives accomplished, AA would now be ready for retirement, it has become as permanently entrenched as any other entitlement program and has spawned an entire subculture of dependency in the very people who were supposed to be liberated by it. Rather than being the mechanism by which an historically discriminated-against people could be elevated into long-term competitive equivalence, it has become the means by which these same people have been prevented from acquiring the necessary skills to compete on equal terms with the general population.

Colosteve
Oh don't we know it!!!! To add to things, they adopted a child!!!! (or bought on the black market) we're not sure.....
Yup. For a smart guy we're all trying to figure out what the heck happened???

CHOOSING A PARTY
LONNG AGO I MADE MAY DECISION TO VOTE OPPOSITE OF MY PARENTS, SINCE WE HAD OPPOSING VIEWS AND I DECIDED:
I FOUND AFTER SOME THOUGHT AND CONTEMPLATION, I WOULD RATHER HUG AN ELEPHANT THEN KISS ANY JACKASS.

GunnyG
Gee, i always thought my Garand went Blingg. Mostly now the oncoming generation shoots mine. I stand back and watch where the clip flies so i don't lose it.
I have fired the M-16, full and semi-auto, and i just prefer the M1. To me the m-16 is flimsy and just seems hard to trust. Today's army likes it, though its lack of anchor power is becoming noticed when used against tough motivated fanatics. Think Philipines, and use enough gun.
A torso hit with the .30/06. Now THAT is affirmative action.

always right
"Where were all the "conservatives" who believed in "merit" before AA."

I was an egg cell in my mother's ovary. Does that answer your question?

I remember when I was 14
in the mid nineties in Daytona Beach, there was an internship for students at my grade level at NASA.

The teacher, reading from the government application, said "preference will be given to women and minorities".

To which I asked, "so basically no white guys?" And he answered, "yes".

Sandman
You are correct and I meant to put a sentence in there stating "AA may only be a contributor to this success". At my age, it is easy to get side tracked and forget a thought.

Affirmative Action
I'm wondering if I could apply trans-gendered logic to ethnicity? Meaning, could I be an African-American "trapped" in a caucasian body? If we can so blithely disregard biology when discussing gender, why can't we do it with ethnicity? Why can't ethnicity be "between the ears," as well?

jonnyrancher
There are plenty of libs who already say this is true, as in any black who has the audacity to leave the liberal ranch is accused of being an oreo--black on the outside but white on the inside. So by that logic these blacks should be checking the box that they are caucasian!

AA MAY BE NECESSARY: But not in church
Clinton Fan

Wish you would stop by where I spend my time on Sunday morning. Black, White, Hispanic--we hang together because we hear the truth, and we become friends.

Yes, I will say it. Some of our best friends are black-Texan, Hispanic-Texan, Korean-Texan, even Californian-Texan. And someday, when life slows down enough, I plan to get back into Spanish class so I can better serve all of the 2-year-olds in my Sunday School class; some speak only Spanish. Toddler-speak in any language is difficult...

Jesus doesn't need Affirmative Action, nor do His people.

We are all Eligible
Mitochondrial DNA shows that all human beings originated in Africa. We are all African-Americans and should start putting it on our forms.

Observations and Experiences
About ten years ago at CSU-Chico, Chico, California a new AA Officer/Something was hired. She made a big point of stating that something like 350 black students had been admitted to CSU-Chico that semester because of affirmative action. For some reason that I don't remember, she was there for less than a year. Sometime after she left, the admissions office released data that indicated that during the semester she referenced there were 5 student admitted under the conditions of affirmative action. What does that tell you about her belief regarding black students?

I was drawing unemployment in Western Colorado and given a job lead by job service. I called the contact -- who happened to be a close friend of my brother and sister-in-law. I told her what I had called and she said that job was "reserved for a minority."

I later went to work for that job service office as a DVOPR and periodically I would call all veterans for a job with UPS. I asked the HR guy about that job and race and his comment was that he didn't pay much attention as long as their minority numbers were up, but if the numbers dropped low he would give primary consideration to blacks.

Age is another factor for discrimination. In my time in the Air Force, some of the duty position I held are as follows. I supervised 8 to 10 instructors and up to 240 students, I scheduled duty and training for over 200 people, I managed a multi-millions dollar aircraft operation, I scheduled administrative airlift and doubled the number of requests for airlift filled and tripled the percentage filled. Enterprise car rental HR people said I wasn't competitive enough to be interviewed.

I was interviewed, and hired, by a young lady in HR for Hertz. Of all the people I talked to in my job search, she was the only one where I truly felt my age was not a negative factor.

Clyde9


The Duke Revisited
The Commodore & his Lady unto Townhall: greetings.

The Commodore & his Lady remember one of the addresses the Duke made in "America: Why I Love Her."

This address is entitled "The Hyphen".

Basically, John Wayne's argument is: if anyone says he is a Greek, English, Irish, African, etc., as well as an American, he is saying: "I am a divided American."

For we all came from different places,
Different countries, different races,
To become as ONE.
But look at the difference a line has done!

Such was the Duke's argument, and it remains so to this day.

The Commodore recommends all look at the Amazon Web Site:

http://www.amazon.com

At the appropriate prompt, look up "America: Why I Love Her," by John Wayne. When one listens to "The Hyphen," one hears Professor Adams' -- and the Commodore's -- viewpoint.

The most level place in the Universe is at the foot of the Cross; there is no discrimination there.

"Red and yellow, black or white;
they are precious in His Sight."

Commodore Barrett

Is it really affirmative?
I am a member of a religious belief system that is easily recognized because of the way the women (I am one) dress. I've experienced very overt care given to my status, though I've never asked for preferential treatment. So I know that all kinds of discriminations exist. I have been the recipeint of favorable discrimination, but I know that ALL forms of discrimination are wrong.
It is embarrassing to me to have some well-meaning knee-jerk fawning over me, just because I believe that one's religion is something that should be seen by casual observers.
I know that 'wearing your religion on your sleeve' is giving place to recognition, but, like affirmative action, it is out of place and demeans those of us who recieve such patronage.
I would much rather be respected as a lady because I act like one than to be fawned over because someone considers me a 'sister'.
My religion also teaches that all are created equal, but these people do not consider THAT part of my religion important.
But then, in our society, I might be 'too religious' to become part of the staff of some major learning center. That's too bad. I could teach them a lot about their errant behaviour.
If they would listen.

r0_d2 writes: Tuesday, November, 14, 200
You know, I am as Conservative as they come, and I never heard of this guy. I did a google search and found this information about him on the Anti Defamation League website.

I am from the right side of the aisle. Any other right wingers ever hear of this looser? Hero, hardly.


Year of birth: 1938
Location: United States Penitentiary in Florence, Colorado
Articles: Among others, "88 Precepts," "The Mystery Religions & The Seven Seals," "Revolution by Number," "White Genocide Manifesto"
Background: Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nations, White Aryan Resistance, The Order, 14 Word Press
Criminal activity: Convicted of racketeering stemming from his activities as a member of The Order, sentenced to 40 years; convicted of violating civil rights in the murder of Alan Berg, sentenced to 150 years.
Ideology: White supremacy, Wotansvolk
Quote: Lane coined the 14 Words, a far-right motto: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

AA
Affirmative action as a federal mandate has, for me, the same connotation as "Low Bid" does on a federal contract. Meets the specs, barely, and might function as is designed, if in the correct environment. And like all federal contract items some are very good and some are very bad, but most under-perform by about 12-20%.

Within the federal employment system white males that under perform in that 12-20% range (there are quite a few) are easier to get rid of. Which means that an act of congress might be necessary to make it stick. An AA under-performer does takes an act of congress and permission from the UN to get rid of.

All in all Affirmative Action is intentional management manipulation for the purposes of discrimination. Pure and simple.

Good idea.
In high school I had a teacher who encouraged us all to fill in the bubble for "other" when asked about our race. I pretty much always do that now. I wish others would too. It's not really a lie... i mean, what is white really? hah.

DubChick
I always fill in "other" or "prefer not to say" as well. Who's pure white anyway? I'm 1/16 Cherokee (not that you could tell with that much dilution).

jnik and always right
jnik writes:
=+=+=+=
Whites have always had an ingrained sense of superiority that makes them assume a person of color is incompetent or unworthy of a given position. That's why they object to AA while thinking nothing of nepotism or legacy hiring and promotion.
=+=+=+=
Well, as long as we're not being racist here ... Is the white sense of superiority genetic or cultural. Just asking ...
How could you read this and think that it's about white superiority? Most of the posters here are saying that Blacks don't NEED AA. THey can do it on their own. It's the people who think we need to cut blacks a break who are treating them as thought being black were a sign of inferiority.

Always right writes:
=+=+=+=+=
What was it called when all jobs were based on having white skin. When I grew up the Wash. Post had no problem publishing ads for whites only.

The entire nation had no problem with whites only everything. Sorry, people of color were well represented in the maid-custodial field.
=+=+=+=+=
It was called "racism", and people like me were out getting clobbered by cops to put a stop to it. I am part of the nation, so it is incorrect to say "The entire nation had no problem ..."

Are you suggesting that Doctor King was wrong and that the best answer to one race's racism is for the other side to be racist too?

If you are, God help you.

AA
To Mad Dawg

A person of color may be predjudiced, but not racist.

Why are "conservatives" now so steamed about using "race to hire? In years gone by you seem to have been the only one who fought against the practice.

If legal racism is not the current "conservative" position, what year did y'all start believing in equal rights for pepole of color?

If conservatism is so fluid, can there really be any such thing?

If the vast majority of white America truly belives in "merit" hiring, God Bless America.




always Right: Mental Defective
always Right stated:

"A person of color may be predjudiced, but not racist."

Are you one of those mental defectives who believe that because hyphenated-Americans are not part of the "majority (white) power base" that they are incapable of being "racist" as individuals? In the book "10 Things You Can't Say in America", Larry Elders makes the case that because of their overt obsession with all matters pertaining to "race" (including victim-group overiding individual "identity") that "persons of color" are the most racist demographic group in the history of this country. Reality: 90% of all violent interacial crime is Black on White. Why? Because apoplogists/enablers like yourself characterize such crime as being "economic" in nature while ignoring the root cause: anti-white, neo-marxist "victimhood" indoctrination provided by hate-groups like the NAACP, NOI, etc.

AA
Demosthenes,
Looks as if we're still searching for an honest man.

Quoting a fake (read opportunistic) such as Elder is a nice try.


AA Is Wrong
Face it, I don't care if you are black, white, red, green ,yellow or friggin zebra striped, if you aren't the BEST candidate for whatever based on the criteria for the application then you DON'T GET IT. The only reason there is racism even left in this country is that a handful of people still believe that we aren't all AMERICAN'S. None of us have roots from here, that includes Native Indians. They didn't just sprout up one day magically here, they migrated like EVERYONE ELSE, either by choice or not. The liberal main stream media needs to wake up and smell the coffee. They are the biggest promoters of racism. I personally find women attractive, and that is all women, not just the white, blonde, blue eyed, big hootered ones. I am not a homosexual and I am religious. Do I deserve some sort of prize for that? Do You deserve something because you aren't white, heterosexual, religious or middle class? The answer to both is a resounding "NO". When people wake up and start taking personal responsibility for themselves and their life then and only then will the playing field be level. Until then, it's nothing but a pile of welfare and reverse discrimination. Bill Cosby is perhaps the most outspoken person I know of when it comes to taking responsibility for yourself. No matter what color you are, he nails it on the head every time. "You will never be taken seriously if you wear your pants down to your knees, walk like you have turrets syndrome and listen to music that talks about beating up women and killing cops" He goes on to say that you will end up either dead or on welfare when you continue down that path. That applies to ANYONE who thinks they are owed ANYTHING. You have the right to be free, that's about it, what YOU do with it is up to you, not me.

What's in a name?
In France, the policy of "affirmative action" is known as "la discrimination positive." Nothing is more revealing of affirmative action's status as discrimination than the American refusal to label it as discrimation. "Affirmative action" is a pathetic euphemism.

questions for always right
If a "person of color" cannot be racist does that mean that blacks who hate Asians or Latinos are simply "prejudiced?" Are you saying that caucasoid is not really a race and can, therefore, not be "victim" of an -ism?

What, exactly, makes on a "person of color?" Is white not a color? From what I learned in science class, white is a combination of all colors. And, truth be told, my skin is a lot closer to almond than it is white.

P.S. The year I started "believing in equal rights for pepole (sic) of color" was the year I was born. It is the liberal position to legalize racism. You just don't see it that way because you lack the ability to recognize basic etymology.

from Dictionary.com
racism - –noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

racist - n. - one who practices or believes in the philosophy of racism


I don't see anything in the definition of racism which precludes blacks (or people of any other race) from being racist.

AA
Libby Girl

You and many of the posters are so young and therefore have no clue about what was going on in the USA 40 yrs ago. And even worse, you don't seem to be aware that there was an aparthied system here that predated 1776.

Equality for all Americans is a VERY recent idea among white Americans. The America that you see today, whites and people of color, as well as people of different religions living together, marrying one another and attending church and school together was unthinkable when I turned 18 in 1965.

You may disagree, but without laws being passed (open housing, AA), this would still be a place where a severe aparthied took sway. Or perhaps many of you, judging by the comments, wish it were so.

We still have "Indian Reservations" in this country. South Africa tried to do the same thing with its tribal preserves and stated they learned from us.

I truly wish all AA programs would end just to see if we are a color blind country. Remember, Race is a concept born of white supremecy. If white supremecy is over, I would seriously like to know what year (about) you think it ended.

Finally, if you see yourself as a person of color, don't try to move into the many counties in the USA that still won't accept the same.

always right
You are correct that I am young. Which is why I didn't experience firsthand what happened to you 40 years ago. But today is not 40 years ago. As long as you cling to the adversities that you encountered in your past, you will never accept change in the present. What was unthinkable when you were younger is now commonplace. AA may have served a purpose in your youth, but it is not only unneccesary now but also destructive to those it purports to help.
People who today still support AA are as misguided as feminists who still fight for women's right to vote or "right" to an abortion. Once the goal is accomplished, there is no need to continue fighting.
I am well aware of the history of this country. And I still refuse to continue apologizing and paying for something that I had absolutely nothing to do with. At what point will "people of color" say, "ok, whitey, you've finally paid your dues for your anscestors enslaving us"? And why not go to Africa and demand reparations from the tribes who captured others and sold them to the slave ships? If you are so outraged at the injustices of the past, how can you in good conscience demand those same injustices on others? To err is human, to forgive divine.
I have not claimed to be a "person of color." I think that is one of the most absurd terms I've ever heard and I was pointing out the idiocy of it. I'm just a person. And, unlike some on this site, I will not change the standards to which I hold myself just to prove a point. Being petty and ridiculous does not appeal to me.

You still have not explained why "people of color" cannot be racist. Nor have you defined "person of color."

AA
Libby Girl
Read Carefully

I HOPE AA PROGRAMS END. I HOPE AA PROGRAMS END!

I am not enraged. When people write with no historical context, as Mr. Adams always does and as you do, it makes me wonder about their motives.

I am what white people called me. First Black N_ _ _ ER than colored, than Negro and finally we started calling ourselves Black without the second part.

We have always used the phrase people of color. Now you know more history. In my mind those in power can be racist; (see the former Rhodesia).

But the real deal (I belive) is that there is no such thing as race. It is a social construct.

If the earth is not destroyed because of race/tribe/nationalistic/religious conflict, perhaps the use of the term will fade.

You seem a like a very angry person. Relax, we're gonna make it.

incoherently avoiding the question
If you don't support AA, then why are you here taunting conservatives who also do not support it?
I have asked the for the following more than once and still have not gotten an answer from you:
Please define people of color. You cannot do it without excluding a race of people who, in fact, do have color. Therefore you are, by definition, racist.
Those in power can be oppressive, but that is not the same thing as racist.
Since you don't believe in race, how can you then claim something is racist?
Given your definition of racism (or an actualy definition), how can you deny that the blacks who rioted after the Rodney King verdict and specifically targeted Asian shopowners are not racist? They were certainly in power during those days. "Persons of color" can be and are racist.
I have to laugh at your assumption that I am an angry person. I have calmly responded to posting in a logical way. You, sir, have avoided the issues on point and have evoked emotional arguments which you then contradict. At one point you even belittled a man you do not know presumably because you disagree with him.

To earn the respect of peers, one must hold himself to a higher standard than he holds others.
As I said before "As long as you cling to the adversities that you encountered in your past, you will never accept change in the present."

AA
LIBBY GIRL

I am in no way taunting "conservatives". I don't
believe there is any such thing as "conservatives".

Black people can be racist if they are in power. Hence my reference to Zimbabwe. American Blacks are in no position to be racist. That's MY definition and I'm sticking to it.

As to avoidance, if "conservatism" believed for 400 years that the ONLY thing that mattered in relationships between the "races" was skin color and that merit was immaterial, how then is the current position, merit matters, still "conservative? Which is the real "conservative" position.

Finally, you seem unaware that people of color was a phrase invented by white people to note differences. It was white people who put into law percentages of blood relationships to define who was and was not white. You act as if 400 years of degradation, murders, rapes, lynching,etc was just some minor inconvenience.
And this was done to all those who could not prove they were white - asians, Indians, Blacks, yellows, reds, browns you get the idea.

Read the histories of Tulsa OK, Homestead, Fla.
and Wilmington, NC and perhaps you'll have a bit more understanding of how AA evolved.


Affirmative Action for the NBA
If the politicians are really honest about Affirmative Action they'll start an Affirmative Action plan for the NBA. The white people are terribly underrepresented in that league. Give those white guys a chance to play basketball--institute Affirmative Action for the NBA...Avidyananda

always wrong
You just can't conceive that conservatives who are against AA are not racist. But, somehow liberals can have valid reasons for being against it.

Your argument that conservatism is inflexible is also invalid. Lincoln freed the slaves. Democrats supported slvery rights.

You also don't seem able to tell the difference between social conservatism and fiscal conservatism. Therein lies your inability to understand any arguments supported here.

Just because you define racism differently does not make it so. I could start calling my cat a dog, but she won't start barking.

Neither I nor anyone I know put the one-drop law into effect. Therefore, punishing me for it is nothing short of vengeance. You act as if 400 years of degradation, murders, rapes, lynching, etc actually happened to you. I am certain that you are not 400+ years old, you have not been murdered or lynched, and probably not raped. Yet they affect you personally. If I went out and punished every man in this country because husbands beat wives and men rape women, I would be irrational and I certainly would not be solving the problem. I would be playing the role of victim which doesn't help anyone.

Finally, if you agree that AA should end, then why do you care how others came to the same conclusion? Different paths, same destination. It seems you are just looking for a chance to play the victim some more and accuse someone else of being racist.

AA
Until we love our neighbor as our selves
there will always be racisn. It is much
easier to hate than to love. Until we learn
that, we will live in hell.

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=45507ee5bbb1caa2;act=ST;f=14;t=3399;st=150

Zero

AA
Libby Girl

I am now a conservative. I use to think that present day conservs, were secret commies because you belive in today, what only commies believed in yesterday; mainly equal rights for all Americans.

But now I understand that because of its "flexibility", I can, at any time, disbelieve today what I fervently believed in yesterday.

God Bless America

Equality over Diversity
I live in Michigan and in the recent election voted "Yes" to end affirmative action here. I voted "Yes" in the election because I want to be treated as an equal to everyone else.

Like jerubaal, I am part American Indian. I am part Creek and part Cherokee. But I am mostly white, and to look at me you would say I am white. I have been marking the "prefer not to say" box for years, but I do not do so any longer because I now see that many of the forms say "if you do not mark a box or prefer not to say, a visual determination will be made". So, a determination is being made about me which could be totally unfair just because of my skin color.

One unfortunate result of affirmative action is that it carries the seeds of future discrimation.
I have seen enough of discrimation, growing up in the Deep South nearly 50 years ago (yep, they had separate facilities for "coloreds") and dealing with it as a "white" male in present-day Michigan. Let's work towards a color-blind society of equals and toss AA.



Why are there so many Jewish doctors??
Years ago, I heard there was discrimination against Jews in medical schools. So what did the Jews do? They came in with higher grades than their Gentile rival applicants! So they could not be denied admission! Sadly, now black students are told, "Don't worry about low grades, we will get you in by quotas"!? It is a sad state when people are "Socially promoted" through high school. And then are passed through college to graduation by PC professors. There are many "Illiterate Idiots" with college degrees teaching in elementary schools. And we wonder "what is wrong in our schools"?? It starts at the top. Forced diversity and the unions that protect them.

an observation from Houston
My sister teaches in a Houston-area highschool where more than 90% of the students would be classified as underprivileged minorities... The first year she taught there, the majority of her students EARNED failing grades by simply not doing and turning in the work. What do you think happened? The school administrators told her that she is not allowed to fail more than a certain percentage of students, and instructed her to pass some of those failures -- regardless of their performances.

This same school also does not issue textbooks to students (resigned to the fact that too many books end up lost or damaged), and it does not allow students to have lockers (because they are used to hide weapons and drugs).

Where is personal resonsibility?! I suppose if it is difficult to get young people to behave responsibly, then we should continue to remove the responsibilities from them?

If young people are allowed to really fail as an accurate reflection of their own lack of ambition, then perhaps they will learn to succeed out of a need for survival in the real world. Unfortunately, we can't even count on that because this new generation is convinced that the government is supposed to take care of them when they decide they "can't" take care of themselves.


Much more likely
Seems much more likely that he just got pissed he was beat out by a better black candidate, and so he's trying to hide his newly found racist ideals by calling himself a "conservative". Saying that affirmative action gives white people a legitimate excuse to deride and sneer at black individuals who have worked hard their entire lives to overcome huge obstacles, in their communities, and often in broken families, to make something out of themselves whether it be in being the first person in their family to go to college, or the first to break through to having a solid career, is absolutely ignorant and pathetic.

If you are the type of person who looks at a black colleague and immediately assumes that they are underqualified or in some other way defective, and that they only got in by affirmative action, you should look at what that says about you, not what that says about them or any other black person. It would be advisable to actually learn about someone and what they've had to achieve in order to get to where they are, before you try and judge them.

Affirmitive Action
I think that Affirmative Action is a kind of discrimination. In America everyone is supposed to be treated equally and by giving a person a privilege that not all people have; you are discriminating against others. I believe that everyone should earn his or her to success.
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