Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, October 12, 2006
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Legislating morality
by Mike Adams
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Dear Students:

First of all, I would like to thank each of you for signing up for my class this semester at UNC-Wilmington. Part of my job as your professor is to dispel certain myths you learn in your other classes, especially sociology. If you decide to question these myths in Sociology 101, your professor is likely to assign you to sensitivity training sessions.

Because our university faculty is so overwhelmingly liberal, many of these myths constitute arrogant dismissals of conservative ideas – ideas that your professors would take more seriously if they had a little more experience interacting with conservatives. Some of your professors have never met a conservative and could only spot one from a distance based largely on the conservative’s physical appearance and grooming habits.

Needless to say, I can’t take on all of the myths you will encounter every semester at UNC-Wilmington. In fact, each semester I design a project that focuses on just one of those myths. This semester I will focus on the myth that society “can’t legislate morality.”

But before I deliver my first lecture on the topic, I have decided to give you a little homework assignment. Please take the time to a) read all of the following questions, and b) write a short paragraph in response to each. I’ll collect your answers before the next lecture on Monday:

During the 1990s, liberals stated that legislation designed to cut food stamps was “immoral.” But most liberals also adhere to the belief that you “can’t legislate morality.” How can a bill be “immoral” if it can’t be “moral”?

There are a number of reasons why the colonists declared independence from England. Is it fair to say that the primary reason was that the King was not legislating morally?

The First Amendment clearly prevents the federal government from establishing a national religion. Does it also forbid the federal government from establishing a national morality?

Was the 13th Amendment ban of slavery an example of Congress trying to “legislate morality”? If your answer is “yes,” is that sufficient grounds to reinstate slavery?

Those who say there is no objective standard of morality base their opinion on the inability of people to act in accordance with that standard consistently. But isn’t the absolute moral law more likely to be seen in people reactions, rather than their actions? Think about yourself for a moment. Sometimes you tell the truth, sometimes you don’t. But, do you not react with consistent moral outrage when people lie to you?

Those who say that “you can’t legislate morality” often talk about various “moral panics” and “witch hunts” over the years. This is done to suggest that morality changes over time. But, is it correct to say that the witch hunts were a product of a primitive morality? Isn’t it more accurate to say that the only thing that has changed is our belief about the existence of witches and their ability to commit murder? We’ve always been opposed to murder, haven’t we?

In the famous 1925 Scopes “monkey” trial, Clarence Darrow stated: “For God’s sake, let the children have their minds kept open – close no doors to their knowledge; shut no door from them. Make a distinction between theology and science. Let them have both. Let them be taught. Let them both live.” Have you ever met a 21st Century liberal who believes that both evolution and creation should be taught in schools? Or do they say “Let them have only one”?

Can you name the 1981 Arkansas case in which the ACLU (the ones who brought us the Scopes case) argued that teaching both evolution and creation is actually in violation of the First Amendment?

How many of our Founding Fathers attended seminary? (Hint: It is more than 26 and less than 28).

In 1796, an act was passed by Congress under President Washington regulating the land given to the Society of United Brethren for “propagating the gospel among the heathen.” The act was later extended by President Jefferson. Do you suppose that conflicts with his supposed insistence upon a “wall of separation between church and state”?

Have you ever read the 1802 letter from which the phrase “wall of separation of church and state” was taken? Is there any truth to the assertion that the letter was written to a group of Baptists in Connecticut ensuring that their church would be protected from the government by a one way wall of protection?

How did that letter produce the justification for keeping a high school girl from mentioning Jesus at her high school graduation?

Is it true that Thomas Jefferson set up the University of Virginia – using state funds – with rules including a ban on swearing and an expectation that students would “attend religious services”?

Given that Thomas Jefferson did not attend the constitutional convention, why is it that people often quote him when insisting that the “separation of church and state” is a “constitutional requirement”? Is it possible that many of these self-described liberals are unable to differentiate between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence?

How many of the states that ratified the First Amendment had official state churches?

Is there any relationship between the ACLU’s love of communism and its hatred of religion?

For the answers to all of these questions, you can simply read Legislating Morality, by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek. Or you can come back to class on Friday to hear me lecture on the topic of “legislating morality.”

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to receive Mike Adams' column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
An article of interest
I recently read an article related to this one titled "How Thomas Jefferson's 'Wall of Separation' Redefined Church-State Law and Policy" by Daniel L. Dreisbach and found it particularly compelling. I thought I'd cite it as a further reference for reading here.

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/May2003/0503Dreisbach.html

God Bless America
Great piece.

I'm prompted to consider how far our culture has drifted away from God in only a few hundred years.

How much more will it move away when my son attends college in a decade?

I expect history to be rewritten further by the academic community. For example, to gender neutral language like Founding Persons. Or discover proof that Martha Washington was abused by her husband while he cheated on her with a male intern.

Then publishers, at the request of the professors and school administrators, later remove reference to Washington, Jefferson and others in all future editions of text books (You know they owned slaves).

I suppose that an article will then be written about the way things use to be.

legislating morality
i have been reading your posts for a few months now however perhaps because i'm an australian, i find them increasingly unintelligable. I understand that you have an imaginary frienfd that you find very soothing but do you really believe that means you have the best understanding and responses to moral issues? As an aetheist I have worked for many years for low pay to redress problems in our communities, some of the larger christian and over-funded groups have spent much less time on helping others and more on their political progress. I hope you can find a little space that suits your belief but i do not want my girls to be targetted by christian or islamic extreemists. Do you really believe that only people that follow the teachings of a long dead jewish prophet have the right to happiness and success?

Fruitless endeavors
What is the point of such fruitless endeavors?

Preaching to the choir gains exactly what?

Are the arguments put forth suppose to be compelling for anyone who doesn't already believe them? If so, please pray tell.

Jesus said you can't convert people by the sword. Rather you have to be an example and be fishers of men.

Just exactly how is that happening here? Where is that elusive drop of honey attracting some mythical unbelieving bee? I'd love to hear how such a Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity inspired piece of drivel would in any way shape or form attract anything other than a mirrored reflection of the emotion upon which it was written.



Where is Mike going?
I think we all know that he's going to say in his next column that you CAN legislate morality to some degree - where it adheres to what is "truly" moral.

But, who decides what is "truly" moral? I agree that banning slavery was legislating morality and, appropriately so. But, I think the words "moral" and "immoral" are bandied about to frequently and too losely.

I think there are a common set of universal morals that God has given us. What we struggle with is how to interpret those morals in the context of our earthly environment. A point which Dr. Adams alluded to.

As it happens, I recently posted an entry to my blog about cultural and moral relativism, if anyone is interested. You can get there by clicking on my name.

Jefferson's 1802 letter
was no diatribe against religion in government, but a separation of federal and state jurisdiction. What the state allowed would not be overturned by the government since there was a Congregationalist vs. Baptist problem in Connecticut.
Being the historian of a 202-year-old Methodist Church in Upstate New York there was such a problem with two years older Congregational and Baptist group in another community because they had problems accepting Methodist circuit rider preachers because they generally didn't have college educations. But Methodists weren't as connected to perceived religious liberty restraints as negative presidential campaigning had misaligned Jefferson as much today as then.

Moral Law
The book Mere Chrisianity by C.S. Lewis gives a wonderful review of "Natural" i.e. Moral Law.

If you haven't read it it's very short and very interesting.

Difficulty with morality is not the same
... as selectively banning its consideration as part of public policy.

Mike is a satirist, which lots of people reading his columns don't seem to understand. And not agreeing with them or finding them funny doesn't change that fact.

Mike is spot-on with this essay, I am afraid. I have taught law at the graduate (law school) and undergraduate (engineering) levels for fifteen years now, and the students I have had are completely saturated with the false notion that morality with roots in religious beliefs is impermissible in any consideration of public policy. And yet, just as consistently, they hold nearly impenetrable views on the "need" to stop eating meat, "save the planet," feed the hungry, avoid war at all costs, etc.

Some of these views could be chalked up to pure self-interest. Fair enough. But the vast majority of them are grounded in a world view that has its roots in Judeo-Christian theology, whether they know it (or want to admit it) or not. And incidentally, when they lob these little bombshells at me in class, it is typically in conjunction with the other sacred tenet in their belief system, that all truth - and thus all value systems - is/are relative. They seem incapable of understanding that that same "relativity" exposes them - and everyone else - to the threat of "persuasion" at gunpoint.

Liberals suffer from the same philosophical myopia. Any claim to morality is okay, as long as it supports their political positions (increased taxation, wealth redistribution, abortion, euthanasia, promiscuity, pollution) and is vague enough about its source that one cannot challenge it on theological grounds. (Uhh .. I'm reasonably certain that Christ would be at least as concerned about saving the lives of human infants as he would be about Gaia.)

Liberal Morality
Liberals legislate THEIR morality all the time, from the hate-laws against smokers to "speech codes" that violate the First Amendment to taxes that support the "welfare" state to laws that impose an unproductive monopoly in public education.

Virtually ALL laws
are a reflection of someone's morality.

Speed laws? Designed to keep us from killing others due to excessive speed reflect our morals regarding killing.

Securities laws? A purer reflection of morality could not be found in these laws designed to protect the investing public from financial predators.

Anti-trust laws? Moral basis.

It would be interesting to find a law that does not reflect a moral judgement at some level.

yoyo
Moral preening and offensive denigration of others religious beliefs do not go well in the same space.

All laws
Monneyrunner is almost correct. ALL laws reflect someones idea of morality. Whenever anyone says. "There ought to be a law...." that person is invoking a moral reason. Follow all laws to there logical basis, and you will a moral reason.

Where did "Christian extremists" come
from? perhaps the Yankee pitcher who "accidently" flew into an apt bldg. was one.

Perhaps proselytizing LDSers are a real threat. Although they certainly seem polite. I've never heard of one strapping a bomb to his bike and pedaling into a crowded govt. center.

Only someone ignorant of Christians could utter a phrase like Christian extremists.

I think a much more accurate term would be "anti-Christian extremists"


YoYo
The only thing that you got right is your nickname. It truley fits.

I live In the New Age
I have been educated well, you see I live in the new age, for it is a new found freedom, one can be homosexual, abort babies, take drugs, curse God and anybody and anything, but so long as I am a good person, I shall be accepted by all. New Age Law of The Land!!!

Rose
"When I first became a Born-Again Christian"

I love you girl. So many people are ashamed of that term. Not you :D.

bly
Be ready. yoyo and his ilk are going to come at you with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and David Rudolph. They always cite one contemporary whacko and two events, (one one thousand and the other five hundred years ago)as proof of the pervasiveness of "Christian extremism."

So, in answer to Monty Python, I, for one, DO expect the Spanish Inquisition. And find its invocation in forums such as this rather tiresome, if not intellectually dishonest.

legislating morality
If Mike Adams was a professional baseball player he would be destined for the hall of fame. He hits out of the park day after day.

Law and morality
Is it morally wrong to kill another human being? I think so although there may be exceptions as in self defense or in combat. Abortion is murder, but we allow it.
Laws generally do not prevent the offense from occuring, but do allow society to react to the perpetrator. This is preferable to vigilante justice.
Laws that address crimes that involve a victim make sense. The punishment may be arguable, but I do not here many people advocating legalizing murder or theft.
Laws that address victimless crime are another matter. This is using morality as a weapon.
When I say I want drug use legalized, I'm not advocating the activity as a good lifestyle choice. Prohibition is a misuse of the legal system. If drug addiction is the problem how has criminalizing it made a difference?
My point is laws that have merit are ones that address actual crimes. A crime involves a perpetrator and a victim. So called "victimless crimes" are not crimes at all and laws directed at them should be repealed, moral or not.

Yoyo
"i have been reading your posts for a few months now however perhaps because i'm an australian, i find them increasingly unintelligable."

If you find Mike's posts "unintelligable", the fault lies not with your nationality but with yourself. Are you suggesting or implying that all other Australians are stupid as well??

"I understand that you have an imaginary frienfd.."

Unreal.

"As an aetheist I have worked for many years for low pay to redress problems in our communities, some of the larger christian and over-funded groups have spent much less time on helping others and more on their political progress."

Did you have to do whatever good you claim to have done "as a human being" as distinct from "as an atheist"? Did you HAVE to be an "atheist" to do your self-proclaimed good deeds?

Further, who cares about your pay? If it is an issue for YOU, get a job which pays more. But please dont martyr yourself on MY account. And who on earth are you to judge others, be they Christian or not? If you were a Christian, you would know better. "Judge not."

Either you do good or you dont. It bears NO relation whatsoever to what anyone ELSE is doing. Again, if you were Christian, you would know FAR better than to "parade your good deeds before others".

"I hope you can find a little space that suits your belief but i do not want my girls to be targetted by christian or islamic extreemists."

Pathetic moral equivalence between dangerous people who might behead you for laughing at their prophet, and those who suck up daily insults from your kind by "turning the other cheek."

"Do you really believe that only people that follow the teachings of a long dead jewish prophet have the right to happiness and success?"

I must have missed something Mike said... No. Just checked. This statement is a COMPLETE figment of YOUR imagination. Like all athiest I know, you are totally divorced from any kind of reality or perspective.

In addition to a gratituous insult to what you know to be Mike's Chirstian beliefs. But again. You are safe in insulting Christians, because you KNOW there is no danger there.


Conservative College Professors
Mike Adams must be one tough hombre. I thought most leading universities had banned and/or burned all the conservative professors, their books and their lectures. My niece is in her first year in a respected university here in San Antonio. The highly biased mostly distorted liberal stuff she was fed in high school, even in math classes, is being continued. When you mention that they should get a more balanced view by reading or listening to Bill Bennett or George Will or listening to Limbaugh once in a while they almost go into convulsions. Keep up the good work Mike. If they decide to tie you to a stake and begin to light the torches I will come running with a fire extinguisher.
John T.

Last Ditch Republican Effort?
The Republican Party has betrayed everything it stood for and disgusted all but their most extreme followers. Now in desperation, they are attempting to roll out "anti-christian" propaganda. As a retired military guy who has traveled all over Europe and the Middle and Far East, I have seen the disasters perpetuated in the name of religion. Religion in politics removes the ability to compromise. Without compromise, diverse populations cannot function unless one group accepts being subjugated by another group. This situation seldom lasts long.

Can't legislate morality?
Tax Code.

I like Mike
http://www.nysun.com/article/41451
I thought that the attached article from the NY Sun was quite interesting and it certainly brings Mike Adam's point home that the information being taught at universities is getting more and more slanted. In this article, a professor at UW-Madison is atually making his students pay for papers he has written on America's role in 9/11, ie: It was a conspiracy. He also is teaching that there is no difference between Hitler and Bush. In fact he states that Hitler's IQ was 20 points higher than Bush's and therefore the comparison is actually an insult to Hitler.
This is where our tuition money is going these days. I am a university student in Washington State and I am just about sick to death of my money going to this crap. I am not directly paying for a class like this but any money that I give to a university is just like support for this junk that they teach.
I understand what "moral" means just as I understand what "immoral" means. Everything that we do is driven in some sense of one or the other. But because it isn't always a tangible object, morality is stretched and pulled to fit the person who is wearing it at the moment. It is an ever-changing costume that most politicians know how to wear depending on the room they are standing in at any given moment. The suit of morality that Clinton wore when he was diddling Monica was perhaps a bit looser in it's cut than the one he wore on Sundays to church with the Mrs.
Mike, I would love to take one of your CJ classes (this is my degree goal). Are they available on-line??? It's just near impossible to find any conservative professors here on the Left-coast.



Geisler and Turek
The column is indeed a home run but, lest you forget, it is a review of Legislating Morality by Geisler and Turek. ALL credit goed to them, not Adams - as I'm sure Mike Adams would agree!

I'll take a shot at a few of these.
Mike Adams said "During the 1990s, liberals stated that legislation designed to cut food stamps was “immoral.” But most liberals also adhere to the belief that you “can’t legislate morality.” How can a bill be “immoral” if it can’t be “moral”?"

Phylo: I don't have a problem holding both to be true at the same time. I do think that certain laws can be moral or immoral. What people mean when they say that you can't legislate morality is that you can write all the laws you want but that doesn't necesarily mean that people are going to follow the law. The goodness of a society does not so much depend on the quality of the laws, as on the morality of each individual.

Mike Adams: "Those who say there is no objective standard of morality base their opinion on the inability of people to act in accordance with that standard consistently. But isn’t the absolute moral law more likely to be seen in people reactions, rather than their actions? Think about yourself for a moment. Sometimes you tell the truth, sometimes you don’t. But, do you not react with consistent moral outrage when people lie to you?"

Phylo: I don't know any liberals who don't think that it's generally wrong to lie, steal, or kill. However, I think anyone who gives this some thought will recognize that there are certain rare instances in which each of these acts might be moral. If someone were to have killed Hitler, he would have been cheered by millions of people. In other words, circumstances determine whether or not an act is moral or immoral. There may be an objective standard; that is, a standard on which most people agree that in most circumstances x is wrong, but there is no absolute standard; that is, a standard in which x is ALWAYS right (or wrong).

Mike Adams: In the famous 1925 Scopes “monkey” trial, Clarence Darrow stated: “For God’s sake, let the children have their minds kept open – close no doors to their knowledge; shut no door from them. Make a distinction between theology and science. Let them have both. Let them be taught. Let them both live.” Have you ever met a 21st Century liberal who believes that both evolution and creation should be taught in schools? Or do they say “Let them have only one”?

Phylo: I personally think it would be a terrible idea to teach children that God created the earth in six days and that women were made by taking a rib from a man, and that evil began when Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Unless, that is, you're going to teach it as a myth and you're also going to teach other creation myths along side it.

But if you want to argue that science and the Bible are two equally compelling explanations for the way the world is you're missing the fact religion and science have two very different utilities. I don't think that people should be shut out from either religious teachings or scientific findings, but we have to be careful not to confuse religious myths with scientific facts.

Also, as soon as you start teaching religion in the classroom, you open up a whole can of worms because you raise the issue of WHICH religion ought to be taught.


In the rest of the article, Mr. Adams is talking about the separation of church and state.

All I can say is that this is a very fine line and it's easy to go too far on one side or the other. Banning a girl from mentioning Jesus goes too far to one side in my opinion, generally speaking. And I would say that teaching the creation myth as fact goes way too far toward the other side. All we can hope for in this debate is that cooler heads will prevail.

Phylo out.


You need to distinguish between
morality and justice. It is both unjust and immoral to steal. It is both unjust and immoral to enslave another human being. It is both unjust and immoral to murder.

On the other hand many believe it immoral to have consensual sex outside of marriage (either adultry or fornication). But assuming the sex is consensual does justice come into play?

Some religions teach that drinking Alcohal is immoral, but is it unjust (assuming you aren't driving drunk)?

Most religions consider it immoral not to engage in regular church attendence - but is it unjust to skip church? And should the state be empowered to ensure that we do go to church?

I'd also suggest reading "The Godless Constitution: A Moral Defense of the Secular State" by Isaac Kramnick & R. Laurence Moore.

Thank you, Lost Cause, ...
for being the only person in this thread to understand the real point of the rule of law. This talk of "legislating morality" is a matter of semantics to me. The real reason for law is to protect man from man. The only time a law should be instated is to prevent someone else's exercise of their personal freedom from forcing me to accept a lower level of personal freedom. That is the only 'morality' that I believe it is fair to live by.


This is why Dr. Adams' question of "Was the 13th Amendment ban of slavery an example of Congress trying to “legislate morality”? If your answer is “yes,” is that sufficient grounds to reinstate slavery?" among others, is so bogus to me. No man should be forced to live in the service of another man, end of story. If you call this "legistlating morality" then I suppose I am a proponent. If you call it something else, fine. All I know is that it makes a whole lot more sense to me than those in power believing that their sense of "morality" is acceptable to all people, and legislating as such.

clarence darrow
"In the famous 1925 Scopes “monkey” trial, Clarence Darrow stated: “For God’s sake, let the children have their minds kept open – close no doors to their knowledge; shut no door from them. Make a distinction between theology and science. Let them have both. Let them be taught. Let them both live.” Have you ever met a 21st Century liberal who believes that both evolution and creation should be taught in schools? Or do they say “Let them have only one”?"

Note the line "a distinction between theology and science." Creationism clumsily tries to be both. That's why it's not taught in science classes. I hope Dr. Adams demands more accuracy from his students than he does from his own columns. Maybe this explains why he wasn't promoted...

Hello yoyo
The Bible informs that it is by faith that one is "saved" not works least anyone should boast, and that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not parish but have every lasting life; "yoyos" included. You see, I believe that in the final analysis it is not be "us" and "them" it is between each individual and God.

Mr. Donohue
Perhaps in your travels and research, you've noted that the non-religious bunch, in the 20th century alone, (Stalin, Hitler,Mao, etc.) have made religiously motivated purges pale in comparison. I don't mean to defend religion gone awry. But to suggest that lack of religion brings joyous living is disingenuous at worst, or wildly naive at best.

Regarding compromise, it can be useful, but for those who really don't mean to compromise at all, they use it as a ruse to move the other party away from their core. The "compromise" reached by Britian and France (and most of Europe) with Hitler not only placed Czechoslovakia on the chopping block (all in the name of compromise), but emboldened Hitler to continue his true course. Some things cannot be open to compromise. Evidently, the religion(s) you may eschew could provide you with some moral clarity regarding compromise and the nature of evil. May I suggest, as a compromise, that you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity."

Whittaker Chambers said it best.
In the opening pages of his autobiographical book, "Witness", Whittaker Chambers described two kinds of governments.

One government is one where ultimate power does not come from the government itself, but some "higher power" outside the control of those in the government. This government believes that people have rights NOT because the government said the people have rights, but because this "higher power" has granted these rights. Since the government is not the granter of these rights, that government cannot remove these rights, and thus the masses are protected from government oppression. Chambers called this type of government "American Democracy".

The other government is one that believes it has the ultimate power. This government decides what is and is not a right of the people, and has the authority to remove any of these rights at a whim. These governments cannot tolerate any belief in anything higher than the government , for if there were something greater than the government, the government wouldn't have ultimate power. Chambers identified this type of government as "Communism".

Ironically, even the "religios" fascist governments of nations like Iran actually fall into the later category. Though they claim to believe in some "god", these governments think that their "god" has granted them ultimate power to do what they will. These governments decide to oppress their people not because their "god" tells them to oppress their people, but instead because their "god" says that the government can do whatever they want.

Hal Donahue
Last ditch republican effort.

I too am a retired military man, Jan 59 - Oct 89, who also traveled all over Europe, the middle East, Africa, and the far East. One of the main requirements of my job was that I study and stay current on the communist bloc states. My hobby is anthropology.

I can agree that the world has seen a lot of people die and misery dealt out in the name of religions from the primitive to the advanced; however; (and this is a BIG however) for pure concentrated destructiveness no religion can touch the death dealing and misery causing affects of communism/socialism. Stalin murdered some 36 million of his own people and kept all the rest in near death misery for how long? Now, notice I didn't even credit the numbers slaughtered by his predecessor Mr. Lennin. Then we have the glorious Mao Se Dong, whose death total we may never know, but we do know it was close to or exceeding that of "Uncle Joe", plus he kept the rest of his nation , of a billion people, in abject poverty and misery for how long? Castro, Pol Pot, Abimail Guzman, Kim Il Jong, etc. etc. etc. all mass murderers in the name of that great atheistic movement called communsim/socialism.

Just amazing what military men choose to see and take away with them as beliefs, eh?

As an exercise I have set down and contemplated in as objective manner as possible (willing to let the chips fall where they may) everything that we in America call "social ills" in our society trying to work out the whys and wherefores, the causes. I could not think of one of one "social ill" that I could point to as having its root cause in Christianity or capitalism. I always found my self staring at the religious beliefs of the socialist/communist religion staring me in the face as the root cause of everything I could identify as a "social ill".

I repeated the exercise asking the question of which has its roots grounded in nature, socialism/communism or captialism. Same results, I found socialism/communism to be a purely distorted way of living and believing that is hashly detrimental to the majority of humans; and, I found capitalism to be in perfect harmony with nature. Capitalism at the root level is even observable at the individual level in life forms other than human. Gathering excess and storing it for future use is as natural as breathing and this action is the root of the capitalism of the stock markets that is so hated by the socialist/communist.

My conclusion is that the only explanation for any belief in the religious tenents of socialism/communism is vast ignorance and limited intellectual exercise.

Truth, there are some of what we call truths that are relative to time and place; however, (another BIG however) there are truths that are and should be unassailable and carved in stone. If you can't see and understand the difference, see my last paragraph.



Nice post Phylo
Thoughtful comments. Regarding "kill," there is a distinction between that and "murder." The example of Hitler being "killed," along with the ensuing celebration, would not be necessarily that he was killed but that a corporate self-defense was successful. Law officials are empowered to assist me and my self-defense by using lethal force. Likewise, governments are empowered to defend their citizens with lethal force. The discussion of a "moral war" then becomes useful. Was the aggression of a law officer or government justified self-defense? On a personal level, if I kill in self-defense, most moral codes permit it. If I murder, it's not, in most moral codes, permissible. To say that liberals, or conservatives believe that killing is wrong may be missing the point of the moral distinction between killing and murder. Standard interpretation of "thou shalt not kill," for example, is more rightly translated "thou shalt not murder." Just cause becomes the moral issue, but the standard has not become a sliding scale of right or wrong killing, depending on the circumstances.

"Born-Again" vs. "Just-plain-Christian"
Rose and Jerubaal--

I've found it difficult to explain to non-Christian friends and acqaintances that, in fact, anyone who is truly a Christian IS born again. Scripture specifies that "unless you are born again you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." A generic American christian is merely the water, rice and dirt variety: they are baptized, married and buried by a church, never having darkened its door at any other time, and never having read God's Word and never having understood their purpose in being. It's a sad comment on our world. My Jewish friends can't understand that there are actually people who wear crosses as mere pieces of jewelry with no Christian significance. It is incomprehensible to them. (Me, too.)

Legislating Morality
Some clarification about judgement is needed here:

The Bible does indeed say "Judge not", but the point of that phrase ("lest you be judged") is often missed because it is often ommitted from the quote. This moral dictum by Christ is not an injunction to Christians to refrain from judging others at all. It would be absurd to live without making any judgements at all, especially moral ones. Even Christ made judgements against others when it mattered - read his rants against the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, and Scribes.

In my opinion, "Judge not, lest you be judged" is an injunction against everyone, Christian or not, to beware of HOW they judge, not THAT they judge. They might be passing judgement on themselves, and for Christians that reflects badly on the message of Christ to unbelievers. In other words, if you are going to judge others, go ahead, but be very, very careful about your hypocrisies.

I hope those that are issuing rejoinders to admitted atheists like Yoyo are cognizant of what they might be doing to themselves. Are you an admitted hypocrite?

Otherwise, judge on...

Laura Hollis
Very insightful comments. Just a note on:

"And incidentally, when they lob these little bombshells at me in class, it is typically in conjunction with the other sacred tenet in their belief system, that all truth - and thus all value systems - is/are relative. They seem incapable of understanding that that same "relativity" exposes them - and everyone else - to the threat of "persuasion" at gunpoint."

Isn't it curious that the statement that "all truth...is relative" voids it's own tenet by rendering it relative also, or it becomes truth.

Phylo
Why do you call the story of Adam and Eve a myth? It is no more and no less provable than evolution, so is evolution also a myth? Whether this is what Mike was saying or not, I believe we should not teach kids only that we evolved from single celled bacteria who spontaneously went from a bunch of amino acids in the atmosphere to life. Does that mean it shouldn't be taught? No. But if we are to teach "alternative lifestyles," should we not also teach "alternative belief systems?" Or are we only going to be fair to those who fit the liberal agenda?

As for accepting that we cannot legislate morality while at the same time declaring a bill either moral or immoral, I'm sure you don't care. There are boundaries that should not be crossed, and, as you so adequately put it, there is a fine line to walk along. But be careful about giving politicians that leeway, because they will take everything you give them and then some. Politicians on both sides are generally so power-hungry and so convinced of their own superiority that they see no problem in manipulating both the Constitution and the people for whom the are supposedly serving to reach their own political ends. I guess my point is this: be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

flimflamman
If you really want to know anything about the astounding body of compiled scientific information and strongly qualified scientists that have testable and verifiable information that contradicts the evolutionists, just read any works from the late Henry Morris and information from his "Creation Research Society." Only those who have vested interests in the status quo of science as it is now preached will insist that only their voice be heard, while ignoring other colleagues' voices that report contradictory research results.

The list of well qualified and credentialed researchers in the scientific community who are Christians and Creationists is large and growing. To minimize their voices and research is as narrow-minded and rabidly zealous as the Roman Catholic hierarchy that tried to suppress Galileo. Both are reprehensible and indefensible. Science, as a search for truth, must be open to all research and results, and our children must be taught more than the "orthodoxy" of the day. Why would I advocate only creationism be taught to the exclusion of evolutionary theory, or vice versa, unless I have an agenda. Sadly, it often is the case for research money, and the keeping of status quo, or personal pride.

Our schools deserve the whole range of scientific voices in the quest for truth.

Phylo
"....In other words, circumstances determine whether or not an act is moral or immoral. There may be an objective standard; that is, a standard on which most people agree that in most circumstances x is wrong, but there is no absolute standard; that is, a standard in which x is ALWAYS right (or wrong)."

Nonsense. Take any one of the examples you have mentioned.

Killing 1:
Killing in self-defence. Not only morally permissible, but possibly morally imperative.

Killing 2:
Killing an old lady to steal her handbag. NEVER morally permissible. An ABSOLUTE. In this instance, the NATURE of the act is changed BY the circumstances. So you cannot equate "killing" under these two separate circumstances, because they are two DIFFerent things....

One is "x" which may be permitted, but the other is "Y" which can NEVER be permitted, under ANY circumstances. You are comparing apples and oranges, and drawing a false conclusion.

You recognise the "circumstances" bit, but then fail to follow through by recognising that those circumstances" change the NATURE of the act.


Moral Law & the Morality of Nations…

Dr. Adams, thanks for a beautiful article full of truth.

First your statement, “Isn’t the absolute moral law more likely to be seen in people reactions, rather than their actions? Think about yourself for a moment. Sometimes you tell the truth, sometimes you don’t. But, do you not react with consistent moral outrage when people lie to you?”

This is the same argument that Paul uses in Romans 2 to demonstrate that all men agree with the moral law in that they condemn others who sin against them. Therefore, all men are guilty as law breakers in that they practice the same things. There is no excuse he says, all men without distinction are under sin.

Second, your use of Jefferson clearly shows that liberalism makes use of deception rather than truth to advance their position.

Third, thanks for addressing the Scopes trial. We can see first hand what pride gone to seed looks like in the condescending arrogance of these folks toward anything that challenges their world view.

For those interested in the origin of the rule of law and its influence in American: ‘Moral Law & the Morality of Nations’ currently on the blog…

Profblog
Nice post. I wouldnt have posted in response to Phylo had I seen yours! And I agree. His post was thought provoking.

Mass Resistance
Kathy, your harping on one individual (Mitt Romney) as the one and only instigator in the so-called gay "marriage" debacle is getting just a bit more than tiresome. To my way of thinking Romney has no more chance to stop that process than a snowball has a chance of remaining frozen in hades. We are, after all, talking about Massachusetts, home of Teddy Kennedy and a Kennedy wannabe, the other JFK (Kerry). Good luck tilting at windmills in the peoples republic, just please, please quit acting like a raving lunatic. Reasoned discourse on sites like this will get you much further than screeching diatribes. The latter will eventually get you labeled as a fringe nut case, whereupon your ability to mobilize will be greatly diminished.
Taproot

Federal Government & Legislating Moralit
The question was asked:

--
The First Amendment clearly prevents the federal government from establishing a national religion. Does it also forbid the federal government from establishing a national morality?
--

The clear and unambiguous answer to this question is a resounding 'YES'. Why? Well one need to go back and read what I believe are the two most overlooked and under appreciated Amendments to the Constitution...the 9th & 10th. These two Amendments clearly state that the Federal Government only has the power to legislate what the Constitution explicitly states it is allowed to legislate.

There is no explicit power for the Federal Government to establish a national morality.

Why then does the Constitution include explicit prohibitions? It almost didn't. There was a great debate at the time and the legitimate fear that people would twist such things and argue that if it is not explicitly prohibited, then the Federal Government must be able to do it. The largely failed attempt to fight such ignorance was to include the 9th and 10th Amendments, but, sadly, people have largely forgotten about them and now believe the Federal Government can do anything it likes.



So many issues, so little space...
Let's see...

Creationism - a myth created by a religion to "scientifically" explain the universe, with an untestable hypothesis (can you produce God in your laboratory?). If you let this one in, then every other religion's creation myth has to be considered in order to promote fair play and not be seen as establishing one religion over the other. Christians (devout ones) need to quit acting like they're the only religion in America. There are many and they're all equally legitimate to the practitioners of those religions. I'd be offended if I sent my kids to public school and the school started pushing the Hare Krishna creation myth as "science" because there happened to be a bunch of loud members of ISKCON in that town.

Science deals with observable phenomena and testable hypotheses. Creationism passes the first but fails the second.

2nd: Mr. Adams is splitting hairs over "ethical" vs "moral". I'm not going to make a moral distinction on slavery, but I will make an ethical argument based on Natural Law philosophy - the fruits of your labor are yours, not someone else's (taxation excluded).

3rd) The girl to whom he refers about having her mike cut off was not cut off for mentioning Jesus. It was for deviating from the school-approved version of the speech she submitted. She started proselytizing from the lectern, which was in the excised part of the speech. They cut her mike off. It's in court. We'll see the result.

4) Scopes was right. Get your science at school (testable hypotheses) and your religion at Sunday school (untestable hypotheses and faith). Don't mix the two because that opens up the whole "whose religion?" argument. Schools dodge the issue by avoiding religion. It's simpler and cheaper than getting wrapped around the axle about "whose religion". Schools serve to teach and not get involved in long court cases about which religions have creation myths worthy of being taught in a science classroom.

5) His article states that the UVa had an "expectation" that students attend religious classes, not a mandate.

I will say this: I don't believe one can legislate morality. One can only punish perceived immorality. It's all sticks, no carrots. See "Taliban". Societal expectations had a lot to do with it. Want to legislate morality? Start with society in general and bring back shame.

yoyo writes:
yoyo writes:
As an aetheist I have worked for many years for low pay to redress problems in our communities, some of the larger christian and over-funded groups have spent much less time on helping others and more on their political progress.

?

You really sound like a loser...

But, the beautiful thing about an open society is that you are free to voice your opinion. In the same vein, I'm free to think you are a loser. And I don't believe the first thing you wrote, reality is far different from your distorted perspective.

Somehow I get the idea you resent organized religion because its members make more money than you. Thats generally because organized Protestant Christianity and Judaism emphasize ideals of hard work and labor. Aethism emphasizes...disbelief in God?

JimmyJoe
Good reasoning, expressed in a different way, is in no way lessened in its effectiveness. Thank you for posting.

To flimflamman
flimflamman writes: Thursday, October, 12, 2006 9:57 AM
clarence darrow
"In the famous 1925 Scopes “monkey” trial, Clarence Darrow stated: “For God’s sake, let the children have their minds kept open – close no doors to their knowledge; shut no door from them. Make a distinction between theology and science. Let them have both. Let them be taught. Let them both live.” Have you ever met a 21st Century liberal who believes that both evolution and creation should be taught in schools? Or do they say “Let them have only one”?"

Note the line "a distinction between theology and science." Creationism clumsily tries to be both. That's why it's not taught in science classes. I hope Dr. Adams demands more accuracy from his students than he does from his own columns. Maybe this explains why he wasn't promoted...


May be this explains why flimflamman probably attended a low-achieving public school. If Creationism does both clumsily, what about philosophical evolutionists(which is what most liberals are)? If the Creationists have to keep their philosophical assumptions out of the classroom, then the materialistic atheists must as well.

Right and Wrong - so Bourgeois
When I was growing up in the 1960s anything that purported to be either a rule or a law was derided as "so bourgeois" -- mainly because it thwarted or attempted to thwart someone's impulses.

Some people apparently haven't changed their opinion since the 1960s I guess.

Last night on the way home when I reached under the stool on which a subway employee was sitting to pick up a dropped penny, the employee kicked me hard enough to leave a bruise and then told me "That's not yours, now get away from here!' prompting a number of passers-by to comment indignantly that such behavior was "not necessary" i.e. immoral. Had I given in to my impulse I'd have got up and pushed him off his stool and we'd have both ended up in jail -- however, since I was taught self-control by Mama, I merely wrote a terse letter to the TTC that included all the specifics and my opinion that such behaviour was or ought to be against the law. I've already heard from them because they realize that this constitutes assault and I could very well send the cops after that idiot.

Would anybody who believes that "you can't legislate morality" like to comment on whether or not, if there was no law that said that man couldn't kick the customers and the customers couldn't retaliate by at the least pushing him off his stool and at the most blowing his head off, that we'd have a much politer society with a lot fewer people around to make trouble? And wouldn't that Frontier Justice be based on morality too?

How does this relate to criminology?
Interesting. He's a criminology professor. What does any of this have to do with criminology?

Is he this way in the class room as well? If so, he would have been on my list of professors to avoid. When in school I always hated political zealots of any stripe (when working your way through school, we never had time for losers who wouldn't stick to the subject matter, which was what we were paying them for).

JimmyJoe
"One is "x" which may be permitted, but the other is "Y" which can NEVER be permitted, under ANY circumstances. You are comparing apples and oranges, and drawing a false conclusion. "

The difference is in what you define as the act. Phylo defines the act as "killing another person" -- whereas you define the act as "killing another person with X intention". He correctly lists the "action" whereas you add the idea of an intention and call the entire thing an action. He clearly says at the top of the text you quoted "circumstances determine whether or not an act is moral or immoral". In the way Phylo is defining an action, he is correct -- circumstances (whether it's killing in self-defense, or killing to steal a purse) determine morality of an action.

porkduhflimflammanpork
I like what you say about evolution as philosophy and not science, but I have to dissent. Evolution is fact, and Christians need to understand that. This is not to say that man evolved from monkey, but creatures have been proven to "evolve" over time in response to their environment: a striking example is the increase in average height of humans and lifespans in just the past 200 years, owing in large part to changes in nutrition and medical services.

For that reason, evolution should be justifiably taught in all schools and not just written off because a single and largely unsubstantiated theory that incorporates evolution runs counter to religious doctrine.

Creationism, whether you believe it or not, does not hold up to scholarly criticism, since its fundamental arguments are embodied in a single volume (the Bible) in which the date of writing and authorship is disputed and unknown. If as conservatives we are going to take Bob Woodward to task for unnamed sources, we need to be intellectually honest enough to recognize that the Bible cannot be taken as fact, just like Woodward's assertions, until the claims can be substantiated by some other source (which in 2000+ years, has not happened). Evolution, conversely, is based on repeatable observations conducted by numerous scholars and scientists for many years now - the ability to test theories of evolution via experiment and observation bequeaths upon evolution the mantle of science.

What cannot be supported and proven as fact should not be taught as fact. In this vein, we should not teach monkey ancestry, the Bible, and Bob Woodward's State of Denial as fact.

JohnT, fire extinguisher
JohnT, No lib is going to tie Mike to a stake and strike a match. Mike owns guns. Besides, what lib would risk exposing herself to secondhand cigar smoke?

Don't Condemm the Children
Taproot,

If more good people would stand with truth, they would realize Govenor Romney's job is to protect the constitution. The will of the people to bring up their children with repect, decency, morals, values and principles. No-one should be allowed to prositute children for money, power nor votes. No-one has the right to denie parents their right to protect their children from devaintcy. Governor Romney broke the law of the land, the law of the people, we the people, broke the faith of the people who put him in office. If I act like a raving lunatic, well maybe I have been pushed a bit to far, maybe it's time to push back, If not only for the sake of the children.

Weak
Is Adams really unable to distinguish between legislating morally, that is passing laws which are themselves moral, and legislating morality, that is putting official sanctions on behavior on the grounds that it is immoral?
On reading this I got the sense that he would benefit from taking one of those Soc 101 classes he is mocking because he doesn't seem to understand any of the claims that are made there. (I'm kidding, my guess is that he wouldn't benefit since he wouldn't actually try to understand them anyway).
The idea that one should not legislate morality (whether one can seems to be a more empirical question as to whether such laws would be effective) is most commonly based on argument's like Mill's On Liberty which makes the case that Government is prone to error, and the consequences of fixing its errors in law are severe. So legislating morality causes more harm than good. Instead laws should focus on preventing harms in the interaction beteen people. So the 13th Amendment would be about the clearest example of a law that is not what is meant by legislating morality, although it is certainly a moral law.
Similarly there is nothing in this idea that requires morality not to be objective, Mill certainly thought morality is objective. But it certainly helps to believe that we do not have inerrant access to the moral law, and so can make mistakes.
What is striking in the above article is that everytime it tries to capture the view of the teachers of SOC 101 classes it gets them wrong.
And could somebody misrepresent the Darrow quote worse than Adams does? Does he really think that the fact that Darrow thought students should be taught both science and theology means that public school should teach both evolution and creationism as science? Darrow's whole point is that one shouldn't confuse the two.

Myth
Let Phylo have his myth. He's actually right on this one. Both CS Lewis and JRRTolkien embraced and wrote on the idea of Christian Myth. A myth, in actuality, is an ancient story, with supernatural beings, anscestors and heroes that serve to help a people form a worldview. Myth serves to explain the world.

Christianity according to Lewis can be explained as a "myth that became fact" in the person of Jesus Christ.

"[t]he heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens—at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences." Lewis, God in the Dock

"In making a myth, in practicing 'mythopoeia,' and peopling the world with elves and dragons and goblins, a story-teller .. is actually fulfilling God's purpose, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light." Tolkien.

The Bible has the best stories! They inspire the imagination, stir the senses, and illustrate truth. What could be better?


Supplementation
By way of supplementing the post of John "Not the Damned Senator" Edwards on Legislating Morality (brilliant post, by the way!), the following observations are in order:

The seventh chapter of the Gospel according to Matthew (all 29 verses), from which the "Judge not, lest you be judged" verse is often quoted, is one of the very few chapters in the Gospels written in the Socratic teaching method (few people know this). The first verse (Judge Not...) is the thesis. Near the end of the chapter, Christ tells the story of two builders, one who built a house on a strong foundation and one who did not. In other words, Christ asks us to judge the merits of these builders. This is the antithesis of the chapter: make judgements.

The synthesis, which is not stated but can be inferred, is as John "Not the Damned Senator" Edwards has well noted: an injunction against everyone, Christian or not, to beware of HOW they judge, not THAT they judge. In other words, if you are going to judge others, go ahead, but be very, very careful...

Laura Hollis
Lovely post--rich with logical, well-made points. The parallels between rabid environmentalism and the more traditional concept of religion cannot be made often enough, in my opinion.

Incidentally, JF--uh, you do know that Mike Adams writes a political column, right? Just like all the other TH columnists? We didn't log onto this site to download his lecture notes on ciminology. He is using the "lecture" structure as a satirical device.

Yo Yo - Atheist
No one is demanding that you "pray", follow a god, etc . Did you not choose to lead a life of helping others? Thank you for your choice. However, sense you made your choice, how can you be critical of others for their choice.

You are not being true to yourselve if you state everyone must be like you. As long as you don't harm others by your choice and others harm you by their choice, so what.

Good Day mate.

profblog
"If you really want to know anything about the astounding body of compiled scientific information and strongly qualified scientists that have testable and verifiable information that contradicts the evolutionists, just read any works from the late Henry Morris and information from his "Creation Research Society."

Much of which has been widely disproven, along with the entirety of Creationism. Why do you think that Intelligent Design suddenly, well, evolved out of that movement? (There are many reasons why ID is bunk, but one good one -- the smoking gun, as it were -- is the Creationist textbook, "Of Pandas and People." During the Dover Trial last winter, an earlier draft of "Pandas" was discovered. Turns out all the editors did was do a find-and-change, switching "creationism" with "intelligent design.")

"Only those who have vested interests in the status quo of science as it is now preached will insist that only their voice be heard, while ignoring other colleagues' voices that report contradictory research results."

No one is ignoring anything. Creationists and IDers are more than welcome to submit peer-reviewed papers, as that's how science works. ID has even gotten a peer-reviewed paper or two in, occurances that were treated with huzzahs in ID circles but which have yet to amount to anything resembling a sturdy scientific theory. (In fact, if you read on, there's really nothing there, nothing to teach.) ID has a long, long, very possibly infinite way to go before it can even be mentioned logically in the same breath as the theory of evolution.

"The list of well qualified and credentialed researchers in the scientific community who are Christians and Creationists is large and growing."

Is this the list of 100 scientists who express "problems" with evolution you're referring to? Because that's been roundly taken down as well: none have contributed anything major to evolutionary theory, most work in fields that are well out of biology and all are conspicuously Christian. (Why are there no Buddhists attacking evolution?) Most importantly: 100?! For some perspective, as well as a laugh, go here: http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3541_project_steve_2_16_2003.asp)

As for scientists being Christians: yes, at least half of American scientists are practically Christian. And most of them believe in the theory of evolution.

"To minimize their voices and research is as narrow-minded and rabidly zealous as the Roman Catholic hierarchy that tried to suppress Galileo."

Nice try. As I've said, creationists and IDers have had and have as many chances to try to prove their theories scientifically. That they usually try to undermine science to do this is very telling. Did you pat yourself on the back for the irony of using a case where the church suppressed scientific information? Please don't.

"Science, as a search for truth, must be open to all research and results..."

It is. Ever hear of Piltdown Man? That was disproven. Now, it's no longer part of evolutionary theory. Evolution as a theory has survived over 150 years of scientific scrutiny, and has been boundlessly refined, with gaps in the theory filled all the time.

"and our children must be taught more than the "orthodoxy" of the day."

Your use of "orthodoxy" is wrongheaded and speciously applied. Again, nice try.

"Why would I advocate only creationism be taught to the exclusion of evolutionary theory, or vice versa, unless I have an agenda."

Because one is scientifically dubious (creationism) and the other is scientifically rigid (evolution). You and others like you enjoy pointing holes in evolutionary theory, but you don't bother applying the same tests to creationism.

JF - Tongue in Cheek
Remember to take tongue out of cheek when biting down. My assumption re Adam's classroom is straight criminal justice. Political discussions in hallway.

Can any former/present students give an opinion?

If the law say's Abortion is Legal
If the law say's Abortion is legal, does the youth stop to think is this right, is this murder? If the law say's homosexual marriage is legal? Does the youth stop to think is this natural??? Does the youth stop to think about the consequences of the fate. We as rational people cannot allow our children to be munipulated into dangerous courses of ill-fated decisions, without instilling all the life skills that will enable them to grow sound, safe, healthy and sane people. Their are far more valuable lessons for life than just the old dirt bags fillings.

help me out here....
"Laws should protect the life, liberty and property of people. It should not try to force 'good' behaviors, because it can't. Law should primarily protect, no coerce, as many conservatives seem to want it to."

Funny that you should mention laws of coercion.

Do smoking bans, speech code, and over the top environmental regulations ring a bell?

Conservatives want laws that protect children from pedofiles. Do liberals want the same?

Can society have laws of morality without punishment or consequence? Answer... NO!


Good article Mr Adams. Thought provoking.


Vidyohs Really Nails It
He wrote: "Stalin murdered some 36 million of his own people and kept all the rest in near death misery for how long? Now, notice I didn't even credit the numbers slaughtered by his predecessor Mr. Lennin. Then we have the glorious Mao Se Dong, whose death total we may never know, but we do know it was close to or exceeding that of "Uncle Joe", plus he kept the rest of his nation , of a billion people, in abject poverty and misery for how long? Castro, Pol Pot, Abimail Guzman, Kim Il Jong, etc. etc. etc. all mass murderers in the name of that great atheistic movement called communsim/socialism."

And, as I've said time and again, there's not a whit of difference between the mass murderers mentioned above and today's liberals. Mass murder in the cause of the "greater good" is no problem for these whackos.

"separation of church and state"
For what it's worth - in 1987 I was walking around a large mall in the Washington DC area. I stopped at the information counter to ask where the bible bookstore was. The response - "Oh they're not allowed to have a bible bookstore in the mall - separation of church and state".

I observe categories of law:

God's law - In the Judeo-Christian bible there are about 1,700 rules or laws. For example, the Decalogue/Ten Commandments (Exodus 20). God's will as leadership in how to live life. Most of these laws are non-negotiable and are for ever.

social law - Person made laws. Some are the same as God's law. For example, do not steal and do not murder. Some are not the same as God's laws, dishonor your father or mother, remarriage is adultery, and homosexuality. These laws change like the wind, but slower.

physical law - God created these laws for materials we live with. If one of us breaks these law punishment may be swift. For example, gravity's affects on stuff. These laws are non-negotiable and for ever.

Phylo
states: "Phylo: I don't know any liberals who don't think that it's generally wrong to lie, steal, or kill. However, I think anyone who gives this some thought will recognize that there are certain rare instances in which each of these acts might be moral. If someone were to have killed Hitler, he would have been cheered by millions of people. In other words, circumstances determine whether or not an act is moral or immoral"

So--I'm pro-life. Which means that it is wrong to kill. However. Abortionists are no different than Hitler to me. Would millions cheer if I were to kill abortionists??

Also. All of these liberals that you know DO think it is wrong to KILL? Thank God. Then you're all pro-life!!!! Whew!

Slavery
One of the evils of slavery was that the slave owners thought that the slaves were sub-human so they did allow them to learn to read and write along with many other dehumanizing treatments such as breaking up families the way you would give away kittens from a litter. You can legislate the end of keeping a person in bondage but you cannot make a law that prevents a person from thinking another group of people are sub-human.

EVERYONE HERE MISSED THE POINT
Dr. Adams is a professor. I assume that the students he gave this assignment to are new to his class. If so, he needs to get an idea of how well these students can think, then write a reasoned, thought-out response.

All good teachers use this type of questioning to gain insight into the students thought process. How is the instructor, in this case a professor, going to find out what his students can do? How is the professor going to find out if the student can read, comprehend, and answer a question, in writing, in a comprehensive and thought-out manner?

It's simple. The instructor asks questions that may or may not have a "right" answer, but the students response helps the instructor find out what each student can, or cannot, do.

The class itself, in this case criminology, doesn't have to have anything to do with the questions. It's a moot point at this stage of the game.




"Evolution" Cannot Be Proven
And with as much stock as liberals place in the "Theory" of evolution, you would think their legions of crack scientists would have come up with SOMETHING by now.

As for creationism, consider this: God (whether you believe in Him or not,) by DEFINITION is omnipotent. So what's the problem with Him cramming 500 million years of geological formation into part of one day? "Creationism" is slowly, gradually winning the day as little bits and pieces of scientifically verifiable data are brought to the fore.

"Evolution" remains an atheistic myth.

ALL COMMUNIST LOVE UPHEVAL
THE ACLU WHO SEEM TO BE WITHOUT A CLU, REALLY ARE A DEVIOUS BUNCH OF SCALLYWAGS BORN TO BE WEIRD PROTAGONIST LYING ABOUT PROTECTING YOU FREEDOMS. THEIR COMMUNIST AND WE ALL KNOW THAT COMMUNIST ALWAYS LIE, IT A PROVEN AXIOM AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE INTO ETERNITY.

THESE DANGEROUS CLOWNS LOST A COUNTRY OR TWO IN THEIR TIME BECAUSE FREEDOM LOVING PEOPLE CAUGHT ONTO THEM AND THEIR SUBVERSIVE WAYS. NEVER UP FRONT AND ALWAYS WITH UNDISCLOSED ULTERIOR MOTIVE THEY WANT YOU TO THINK THEY ARE ON YOUR SIDE BUT WE ALL KNOW A COMMUNIST JOB IS TO RUIN AND KILL CAPITALIST WAYS AND FREEDOM LOVING GOVERNMENTS. THEY DO MISS STEP AND WHEN THEY DO OUR LAW OUGHT TO TRUMP THEIR WEASEL WAYS BUT THE FUR HATERS LOVE TO PROTECT WEASELS AND IT'S TOUGH TO MAKE A WHEEZY SYMPATHIZER COMMIT TO THE SIDE OF REAL WRITTEN LAW.


Evolving evolution
Lyell came up with the "uniformitarian" concept of time to explain how the mutation of genes, in the form of "beneficial" mutations, would explain the mechanism of natural selection. The premiss included millions of years of uninterrupted time for the millions of deleterious genes to finally get one right so as to allow beneficial species changes. The uninterrupted millions of easy years has been discredited by studies and evidence of global catastrophies. So, the mechanisms for mutation and natural selection to account for the evolution of species has, well, evolved. Punctuated equilibrium has become popular to explain natural selection/evolution along with the substantiated catastrophies our earth has had. If you read me as saying that we should teach religion, you misread. If you read me as saying that questioning orthodoxy in academe is hard, yes. If you believe so, you've not been around the academy long enough. If you think that my only point of reference to those who have questioned the orthodoxy of the day is creationists, I'll defer to another voice, Robert Denton, a mathematician who wrote, "Evolution, a Theory in Crisis." At the time of his writing, he was an agnostic. His mathematical models, however, cast clear doubt on the theory of evolution. Reviews of his work have ranged both pro and con. The point is that most often the "discrediting" voices have vested interests in the status quo, and often, as with Galileo, heresy is met with deep trouble. In our day, mostly scorn or lack of tenure.

If creationism has evolved to ID, evolution has evolved to punctuated equilibrium to explain what was previously held as true but which became untenable. To not educate students to these facts, as I maintained previously, is one-sided at best and censorial at worst. I do agree with your assessment that evolution, as a theory, is scientifically "rigid. What happens to scientific rigidity is that evidence that supports the rigid view is hailed, evidence to the contrary is expelled, ridiculed, or suppressed.


define terms: "You can't legislate m..."
The phrase "You can't legislate morality" doesn't mean that laws can't or shouldn't be written that require moral behavior. It means that such laws - on their own - are not sufficient to produce moral behavior.

Moral behavior must come from God, who lives within us. If God does not live within a person, then that person cannot be expected to behave morally.

So, the statement "You can't legislate morality" is a call to evangelism!


flimflamman
So exactly how does evolution explain creation? Evolution is a theory. But clearly, there WAS creation. If you have some other explanation on where all this stuff came from, let's hear it. Yes, I know about the "big bang". Where did the stuff that went "bang" come from?

Au H2O fan
Interesting take on the name Goldwater. I had a good chuckle with your post. I too doubt that any real liberal will step up to Mike. 'Tween the guns and the cigars, he's got them cowed.

vidyohs
I enjoyed reading your post, largely because I agree with all you said.

To Phylo and Flimflamman
You speak of the creationism as a myth, as if you know for a fact it is a myth. This speaks to the arrogance of you both. As more and more scientists agree that their is no real conflict between science and creationism (and there are many more than you would care to admit), one would think you would, at least, drop the same old tired statements and do a little research to see why these previously atheistic scientists have now changed their minds. Forgive a poor, dumb Christian for trying to enter into your exclusive world, but does not one of the laws of physics say that for every effect there must be a cause? Nothing can not create something. For all that is to exist, it had to originate from a starting point. Our Bible and the Jewish Torah, which you dismiss out of hand as the insane ramblings of long dead men, says this starting point was a creator, God. One thing for certain; evolution does not fit the bill (and I don't have time to get into all of the problems with the evolution theory, to which even Darwin admitted there were many holes in the theory). So, if I am wrong there's no skin off my behind. If you are wrong, major skin off yours. God bless you both.

BlueBustard - evolution is not creation
Evolution does not prove nor does it disprove creation. Evolution is a theory of animal development over time. Some scientists have worked backwards and, using the theory of evolution, surmised that man must have evolved, like South American finches did, to changes in their environment. These scientists believe man evolved from some sort of proto-monkey type sub-humanoid. This is the theory of the evolution of man.

And God cannot be defined, because any attempt to define God would be arbitrary and lead to disagreement. Ancient Greeks believed their Gods were neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Too many Christians attempt to dispute scientific fact with assumptions; they counter evolution theory with the idea that God (unprovable assumption) "crammed" the same evolutionary development that scientists argue occurred over "500 million years" into the space of 6 days, wielding a power so enormous that man cannot conceive its full extent. You are fighting cataloged scientific evidence with myth, and are too blinded by faith to realize the logical fallacy.

The theory of the evolution of man is by no means a solid or irrefutable theory. But evolutionary adaptation of animals over time is a fact.

the burden of proof
You cannot convince anyone of creation's merit versus the evolutionary theory of man by citing that you know God to exist, and he spelled everything out in the Bible. First, you must prove God exists with empirical evidence, not testimony. You need his signature, an ATM receipt, or he needs to show up in person. Second, you need to prove the historical accuracy of the Bible. Unfortunately, you have no contemporary sources that lend creedence or corroborate the stories of either Testament. The numerous authors of the Bible are probably a little biased as well, so you cannot rely on their historical accuracy anyway.

Challenging evolution
Phylo,

Even though I often disagree, you always give reasoned posts. But you have the wrong idea about what proponents of ID want to teach in the science classroom. Let me illustrate with examples.

Back when evolution was "proven" by the fossil record (the one without any gaps), ID proponents were in favor of teaching that there were, in fact, gaps. They also wanted to teach that modern genetic theory was inconsistent with Dawinian Evolutionary Theory.

Today, proponents of ID would like to point out that observations of radiation from the sun are not consistent with the long timelines required for evolution, but are consistent with much shorter timelines. But evolution requires long timelines, so the science assumes that we are not detecting all the radiation (which is fair, by the way.) IDers would just like to point out that not all scientific observations are consistent with the theories of evolution.

Next year, I'm sure proponents of ID would like to include in the discussion on fossiles the recent Montana T-Rex findings. The soft tissues found in a "70 million year old fossil" leaves Evolution without a mechanism of fossilization that is consistent with the long timelines required. That doesn't mean it's not true, of course.

All those things are science.

The only people who talk about Bible study in science class are evolutionists. They don't like to see their scientific framework being questioned because of the implications it has for their "There is no God" religion.

Morality
The simple answer to the question "Can we legislate morality is--No." The best we can do is legislate behavior. The hope of such legislation seems to be that if we eliminate certain behaviors a moral and just society will result. Whether that proves to be the case is up for debate.

Were we attempting to legislate morality when we voted to end slavery? Some were-- in that they believed that the enslaving of others was morally wrong-- others sought the end of slavery for more practical and economical reasons. In either case it was the right thing to do because it was the moral thing to do.

Other examples are less clear. Open-space laws, seat belt laws, no smoking bans et al are less clear. Clearly those who petition for these laws and those who pass them feel that they possess the moral high-ground but there is ample room to debate the morality and the value of such nanny-state laws.

My position generally is that those things that God has not prohibited me from doing should not be denied me by man-made legislation. However, I will accede that there are some things that fall under the heading of "general welfare" that must be decided on by the society as a whole. We must be able to agree to a certain minimum standard of acceptable behavior. Thus certain curtailment of free speech (yelling "fire" in a crowded room etc..), drug laws and basic zoning regulations make sense in a world where all are free to follow God's word or not.

response to Jimmy Joe
You said it is NEVER right to kill an old lady to steal her handbag. Therefore it is an ABSOLUTE.

What if she's a terrorist and has the trigger for a nuclear bomb in her purse?

Are sure you want to stand by that "never" comment?

There are always exceptions my friend. That is why it is silly to say that there are moral absolutes. Absolute means no exceptions.

Phylo out.

Legislating morality
Communist nations have historically attempted to impose morality on the masses via legislation. China prohibits Western music acts from performing if their songs' subject matter is deemed immoral or inappropriate.

Of course, in communist countries the leaders are held to a different set of standards than the proletariat masses, both economically and morally.

It is a fine line between legislating morality and preserving the integrity of a society and the moral fabric of a nation. The job will only become more difficult as America becomes more socially laissez faire but more economically socialist, a combination of societal forces that will only serve to subsidize deplorable behavior at the expense of morality.

My Response
Dear Mr. Adams,
I just finished reading your article on legislating morality. On quite a few things I agree with you, but on this issue, I must strongly disagree. Also, I would like to point out that at times the statement is “government should not legislate morality” and at other the statement is “government cannot legislate morality.” I agree with the second and would put forward the idea that legislating morality is outside the bounds of the powers granted to the Federal government by the US Constitution and limited even to states by the very foundation of our nation. I will answer some of the questions you pose, omit some because I feel that answering them is not really relevant to the idea that you present, and answer some in more detail than others in an effort to point out how legislating morality exceeds the powers we granted to Congress.
The liberals were wrong to state that legislation to cut food stamps is immoral. In my opinion, providing food stamps to a portion of the population at the expense to another portion is immoral. Not only that, but it also takes away from those whose morality would push them toward helping their fellow man. In this more direct system, the person providing the charity makes the decision to do so of their own free will and will gain a sense of well being for doing something they believe in. Also in this way, the person or people providing the charity can ensure that the charity is not being abused and the person benefiting is working towards improving their own situation so that the charity can later be redirected towards others in need.
As to the question concerning the King of England legislating morally and the movement towards independence by the colonists I can only answer by stating that the reasons were not about morality, but about restrictions of freedoms, a judiciary that was answerable only to the king and not to the people, for abusing his powers and holding his agents above the law, the restriction of trade, the imposition of taxes without consent, not allowing the people to determine the laws most appropriate for them, and for what amount to waging war against the colonists. To me, this is not about what is moral or immoral, but what people are free to do with their lives.
Next we move onto the First Amendment. This has been one of the most greatly abused of the Bill of Rights by the liberals to change the foundation of our country. I myself am an atheist, but feel that the efforts by those who wish to see all signs of the religion of the majority of the Founding Fathers and of the people of this country to be removed and eradicated from public a despicable act. I have no problem with a Christmas Tree, or a Nativity scene on the lawn of a town hall or the White House for that matter. If in that town, the predominant religion is Christianity, then go for it. If in some location Judaism is the predominant religion and they wish to display a menorah instead, that is their decision and has no impact on me whatsoever. It is a horrible twisting of the First Amendment that allows a group of radicals to try to erase what is a large part of the history of this country. I do not feel that the First Amendment allows or disallows the government from establishing a national morality. I will come to that soon.
The 13th Amendment was not an example of Congress trying to legislate morality. It was one of the cases where government is doing what it is supposed to do. Slavery was an institution that took away the right of men and women to live free lives, to do what they will with those lives and to live for their own happiness, not the happiness of others. This is exactly why I think that legislating morality is absolutely wrong. Any time a law is made that “legislates morality” it deprives and individual of the right to do as they will because a majority feels that what the individual is doing is wrong. A portion of the population felt that it was moral to subjugate a group of people they felt were inferior for their benefit and the benefit of society. So we can look at the 13th Amendment as either legislating immorality from the point of view of the slave holders, legislating morality from those who were opposed to slavery, or the way I see it, as preventing one group from depriving another group of their inherent human rights.
In discussing whether there is an objective standard of morality, I think that this portion has little to do with legislating morality. It is more of people doing what is in their own self interest. People will lie when it benefits them, people will tell the truth when it benefits them. I do not believe that I or others react with “consistent moral outrage” when lied to, but that there is anger because we have been deceived. Now I feel at this point that saying that people doing what is in their own self interest will be a bad thing for society, but I feel this is not so. Take a group of people and form put them on a small island somewhere. That group will end up working together to set up a well or some way of getting water. They will work together to gather food. If there are dangerous animals around, they may form a watch to keep the animals away or warn others of danger. These acts help the group as a whole but they are self serving. The group has many needs and if each individual tried to do them on their own, they would soon find themselves in very dire circumstances. By working on a communal water system, you work toward that goal, while freeing up people to work on the food situation which will benefit those working on the water. I will admit that there are some who will not work to help, or may actively work against the main group, but the society can act by not allowing the individual access to the fruits of their labor.
On to the witch hunts. Morality does change over time and the things people do in the name of morality can be thought to be the worst travesties in human history as we look back upon them. The witch hunts, slavery, and the Holocaust all argue against legislating morality. By making laws and acting on what is thought to be morally right by the majority in a society we get people subjugated, murdered, or both. If instead of legislating based on morals, we legislate based on the rights of individuals, none of these things could have happened. Individuals have a right to life and liberty. These previous events happened because society allowed government to pass laws that the majority thought were moral, but in doing so, deprived a minority of their inherent rights. I am opposed to murder, not on any moral issue, but because that person has just as much right to live their life as I do regardless of a difference in religion or skin color.
I have not met a liberal who believes that both should be taught. On that we can agree. Do I believe both should be taught? Yes and no. One of the major shortcomings of science education today and education in general is the lack of proper teaching of the scientific method and skepticism which is part and parcel of that. Children need to learn at an early age that questioning information is a good thing. As part of this, both evolution and creationism need to be evaluated and then correctly labeled. In other words are they theories or are they hypotheses and then take it from there. But this has little to do with legislating morality, but of extremists of both sides (right and left) trying to control the education system.
No I cannot name the case and I do not see where teaching both is a violation of the First Amendment. As I stated before, we need to hold both up to the same standard and proceed from there.
I am guessing from the hint the answer is 27, but do not see where this is relevant.
It seems at this point that your argument is boiling down to an argument over the mystical “separation of church and state” fabricated by a liberal leaning judiciary over time. I am answering several of your questions in this one paragraph. I have read the letter and understand that its meaning has been subverted by those who are pursuing an agenda to eliminate religious references from our society although one of the main reasons we are here in this country today is because of the religious beliefs of those who came here. As I stated before, I do not believe in any religion and have my issues with it, but I do not feel that I need to cram my beliefs down the throat of every one I see or to castigate someone who says “God bless you” when I sneeze. Tolerance is the way I try to live my life, but this is not based on my morality, but on the belief that we all need to be allowed to live our own lives. Keeping a girl from mentioning Jesus in a speech at a school is just ridiculous. Let us look at it this way. If Jesus never existed, pretty much all of us know the person who is meant by that name and of the stories of his life. If we are being told to live our life like Jesus, without even looking at that as a religious statement (although I do not know in what way Jesus was mentioned in the girls speech, I am using this for illustrative purposes to make a point), I can assume that the person saying that would mean that we should forgive those who transgress against us, to let others live their lives because no matter the moral standard we hold, at times even we can slip a little, to be charitable to others and to love each other as brothers. Even though he is a religious figure, people should still be able to understand the message the speaker is trying to convey.
I cannot speak to the truth of the statement that Jefferson did or did not do what is in the question, but nor does it matter to my disagreement to your statement.
I will skip answering the last questions on the basis that your argument is veering from a discussion on morality to a discussion on where your morality comes from.
We are now homing in on your point and also homing in on why I disagree. Your morality is based on your Christian beliefs. You are entitled to those beliefs. But how dare you or anyone else impinge on my freedoms because of what you believe is right and wrong. A society, even if the majority agrees, cannot legislate in any way that removes my ability to live my life as I see fit as long as that does not prevent another from living their life as well. If what I does offends your sense of morality I apologize, but will not change the way I live my life. If you try to do that, you are beginning the walk down the road to political correctness, just stepped on from a path different than those that have tread that road to ruin before. Political correctness is just changing what we say, think and do to prevent others from being offended. You are just cloaking yours in the guise of “morality.” I disagree with the left on “political correctness” and with the right on “morality.” These are merely two sides of the same coin.
Now contrary to what you may think, I have been married for just under seven years. I am a man and my wife is a woman. We do not have an “open” marriage and I have never cheated on my wife because I hold dear the relationship we have. I realize that my marriage is not as long as some, but it is longer than others. My wife and I have two children who we will more than likely homeschool as we feel that the American education system is a failure. My wife stays at home with our three year old son and two month old daughter because we feel the benefits of a second income do not outweigh the benefits of a close family and having to trust in others to raise our children for us. I am living a life that would bring no looks of scorn from those on the right, and from those on the extreme right, the only fault I think they could find is that we do not go to church. We are living this way because that is what is right for us. I would not dream of dictating to another how they should live their life. Each person needs to be left free to live their lives and to live it the way that brings them the most happiness. The power we give to Government is the power to keep one person from preventing another from exercising their rights. This does not extend to “legislating morality” because this is the majority imposing their idea of how people should live their lives on the minority. And if you feel that people living their lives as they will offends you and you feel you should not be offended, welcome to world of political correctness and the world of the liberal.

response to truetolife
truetolife said: "So--I'm pro-life. Which means that it is wrong to kill. However. Abortionists are no different than Hitler to me. Would millions cheer if I were to kill abortionists??"

Phylo: I doubt it because most people see a difference between a group of cells and a fully formed human being.

That said, I am morally troubled by people who decide to get an abortion simply because having a baby would be inconvenient. I am still, however, a proponent of allowing people to make the choice themselves because of all of the problems associated with making it illegal.

Phylo out.

???????????
donald--what rock do you live under? 1st Ammendment rights of students are violated everyday. I guarantee those "student-led" prayers are heavily censored.




jcthomasva
God CAN be successfully defined, especially on an ad hoc basis for the sake of argument. Also, the definition of the "Christian God" is GENERALLY accepted in the U.S. (Look it up in yer Funk n Wagnalls.)

You say, "But evolutionary adaptation of animals over time is a fact."

Sorry. Try as they might, "evolutionists" have been unable to show even one piece of evidence bearing this out. The evidence may exist in the fossil record somewhere, but it has yet to be produced. Huge "gaps" HAVE been documented for "evolving" species, but nothing has yet been found that fills any of the myriad gaps.


Phylo (way back there)
A lot of posts have come while trying to reply to Phlo. And I can't possibly take the time to see if I'm still relevant here. So, anyway.


PHYLO: "What people mean when they say that you can't legislate morality is that you can write all the laws you want but that doesn't necessarily mean that people are going to follow the law. The goodness of a society does not so much depend on the quality of the laws, as on the morality of each individual."


This is not a case for ceasing such moral legislation. Good baseball depends ultimately on those who love the game. And no amount of rules and practicing of fundamentals can make that happen. But those things need to be there just the same. And those who love the game will practice them even beyond what seems necessary.




PHYLO: "... we have to be careful not to confuse religious myths with scientific facts."


Myth: A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.

Fact: A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred.

(Definitions from WordWeb)


You have put it well (though maybe unwittingly). Science can give students only the mere facts of life. It gives students nothing of the Story. Love Story, if you will.

To elevate science and banish religion from school for being irrelevant or even dangerous is to teach grammar and illiteracy in the worst of ways.


As for which religions should be a part of the children's education: Let the local schools make that choice. That's not so difficult.



An The "Evolution" of S.A. Finches
remains believed, but totally unproven.

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
jcthomasva! You're right,a god,a real god, would reveal himself and "show up in person" as you say. And we got one! He did.

Taproot re: Kathy
Thank you for your remarks to Kathy. I too am sick to death of her constant, incessant, non-stop, continuous, never ending caterwauling about Mitt Romney. I hope the reason for the lack of responses to her are because every one else is also sick of her one track mind and not because they agree with her in any way.


for the evolutionists
Something my husband noted yesterday: He was reading about a special star or galaxy, or something, 70MILLION light years away. And he noted that that light streaming to us, has remained unchanged all these years.

And this galaxy was at we see it, fully formed, 70 million years ago! And after 70 million years, it is consistent with the galaxies, stars and matter we observe closer to us, at say 30, 20 or 10,000 years distance. Its all the same. its all consistent.

Wouldn't evolution preclude that we should have inconsitent variances throughout the universe?

Evolution Theory
1. Evolution does not postulate about the existence of "God" but about the origin of humans.

2. There in lies the biggest problem with evolution; it is a theory that has yet to be proven. Specifically those gaps like speciation.

3. I can however provide a provable theorem about the origination of humans, using the Genesis account, and has already been proven scientifically.

4. Man was made in the image of "God". "God" then took a part of man and made woman. We already have proof that you can "clone" (make in the image of) another life form. If this life form is male then you have both X and Y chromosomes. By using X chomosomes (taking a part of) you then have a life form that is female.

5. DISCLAIMER: This is a scientifically provable theory that is used to show the close-minded thought process of those insist that only "science" should be used when discussing the origins of humans.

To JymG
Your logic does not necessarily follow. And I would like to see the evidence that proves the hypotheses that you are presenting as a theory

BlueBustard
Really, before you and others go on about the fossil record, you really need to actually take some geology classes before you opine. The fossil record VERY CLEARLY shows long term trends towards increasing adaptive forms, complexity and sophistication in plants and animals. In Cryptozoic sediments, we can see increasing oxidation as planktonic (and oxygen generating) organisms) gradually increased and thereby initiated the distinctive atmospheric changes that allow for 'redbed' sandstones and shales (impossible under chemically reducing atmospheric environments thet had predominated previously). ID cannot answer or even effectivly refute geology, because the evidence is plainly evident and dates are verifiable by proven radiometric techniques.

JymG
4. Man was made in the image of "God".

What does God look like.

Don't be so absurd.

Agree or disagree
Agree or disagree some-one must stand in truth. It takes people of substance to understand the horrible fate that is being delt to the innocent. Because I know the difference between right and wrong, and children will be lead down the path to self-destruction if no-one is willing to speak up in their defense. Amen!!! Praise Jesus!!!!

Donaldd
Well. That was a stretch.....

Evolution
How come it hasn't happened again? Why are there still so many species of apes, gorillas, etc. if they are our ancestors?

Legislating morality
If racism is morally reprehensible and Affirmative-Action legislation was written and enacted to curb the effects of said racism; does that not make Affirmative-Action laws the legislation of morals?

BlueBustard
How do you account for the fact that humans today on average are taller than their ancestors 200 years ago, who were taller on average than humans generations before them? Height is an evolutionary trait. Evolution is the product of millions of genetic interactions among a pool of procreating creatures.

The apparent "holes" in evolutionary theory exist in the realm of theology as well. Skeptics argue "How can animals evolve from nothing?" By the same token, I can ask "Where did God come from?" by which the theologians immediately counter, "Oh, God is eternal, He is without beginning and without end!" Thats all fine and dandy, but such a supposition is not conceivable within the realm of human understanding, which usually recognizes that all things must both begin and end. Evolution at least attempts to answer questions of origin and development within the framework of human understanding of past and present, and theology for the most part glosses over the really hard questions and relies on a blind faith in its mythos to answer life's questions.

Questions?
I wear Birkenstocks, and started doing this for comfort in the 80's. I have even worn them while I was voting. Until the last election in '04, I had always voted for Democrats as I had been raised to do. However, although beyond sixty, in '04 I voted for every Republican I could, especially for George W. Bush. Over my lifetime, I've been a born-again Christian, an atheist, an agnostic, and a Christian again. I've watched the Democratic Party follow their leaders over the cliff of irrational defense of whatever moral or immoral behaviors they choose to defend with the idea that no one has the right to legislate morality. More and more, many of the leaders of my former party, behave as if none of us notices their reprehensible behaviors bordering on treason because we all now are moral relativists. Thus, I have decided that I would like to vote Republican again. May I do that in Birkenstocks, hoping the line to vote Republican is very, very long?

To: ryanl
Have we not seen numerous reports on the use of DNA to clone other life forms (sheep)? Are we not taught that male DNA consists of an X and Y chromosomes while female DNA consists of an X and X chromosomes? I just applied these "proven" scientific principles to the ancient text of Genesis.

To: jcthomasva

Remember that science does not theorize on the origin of "God" but on the origin of humans. BTW What does "primordial soup" look like?

What about
The Big Bang? How come there was only one? Is this life all the bang we're gonna get for our buck? Thanks, but no thanks. I'll wait until the afterlife and then we can talk again. Then anyone who hasn't answered the call of God which was placed in everyone's heart: St. Augustine: My Heart will not rest until it rests in Thee....
can take it up with satan.

finite man
jcthomasva: you say evolution answers your questions "within the framework of human understanding." Thats the thing Thomas, we need something that moves beyond the finite. Something Infinite.

Jannieb: Welcome back and if the line is long and you're in Birkenstocks, you should be very comfortable!

phylo and myth
Phylo, thinkng about your desire to only teach "Fact" to children, is surprising. You don't believe in the material world, yet what want to teach kids is Reductionism. Materialism at its least.

Our children are more than a glob of cells and globules. They have heart, and imagination, and spirit. Don't they at least deserve an education that speaks to all of who they are?
Shouldn't we inspire our children? We teach them Red Riding Hood and Goldilocks and Shakespeare.

Don't educators do a disservice to the children if the premier book of the foundation of Western Civilization is discarded to "protect" them?

some points
Changes over time(evolution) cannot explain origins. Its like saying: since rain falls from the sky thats where water comes from.

Even so..

DNA is heavily encoded and does not work even with a single pair missing. How would you explain then leaps in DNA from say 46 pairs to 96? The interspecies would at the very least be at a disadvantage. Would not this tend to keep DNA strands similar rather than disparate?

Even with many many billions of years for the pieces to fall into place is so astronomically impossible its not even debatable:
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/crutches.html

Jannieb
Welcome to the big tent Jannieb, birkenstocks and all. All who believe in recognition of merit, in cause and effect, who see in history the contribution of Judeo/Christian values to the recent success of western culture are more than welcome. Your birkenstocks don't bother me a bit.

subpoening God
Science, of course, can theorize on the origin of man.

Theology attempts to do the same, basing its assumptions on the assumptions of earlier generations, who based their assumptions on those of previous peoples...how would you, as a Christian, disprove the creation myth of other cultures, say, the Aztecs, the Greeks, the Iriquois, the Chinese? Evidently, according to all of you, the Christian God is the correct one, and everyone else's assortment of divinities is clearly wrong, condemning them all to H*ll, if we go by mainstream Protestant theology.

Creation myth is not rationally provable, simply because it is myth, a fable, a story contrived for the benefit of a society, to explain those questions which the society was not yet equipped to answer.

Most of you are citing the Bible as some sort of sacrosanct, irrefutable evidence. The Bible should not be used as scientific or historical evidence anymore than Wikipedia. How do you justify the supremacy of the Bible, whose authors and often its wording are obscured by time, with other religious tomes, such as the Torah, the Koran, or perhaps the Mormon Bible? What about UFO cults? Are the members of these religions off-base and confined to H*ll as well? What proof do you have to prove that assumption?

There is a reason religion is often referred to as "faith" and not "fact." Religion is a collection of ideals, assumptions, and perspectives on history and society that are not necessarily provable or even remotely accurate, but are accepted nonetheless, to the spiritual benefit of the worshipper. You can smile and give people a blank look and proclaim "Jesus Loves You" but until Jesus shows up at my house with a six-pack, I have the right to be skeptical.

You are attempting to debate a scientific theory whose interpretation is grounded in factual data with what? A couple of verses attributed to Moses from 3,000 years ago. Its like coming to a gun fight with a knife. There are more intelligent, cogent and factual grounds to dispute evolutionary theory from.

No More Slaves-
I love God, he gave me life, though my birthdate is Feb 12, I have always felt a tugging, a very intense feeling to protect man from beast. I have 10 brothers and 3 sisters. Praise Jesus. Let's not let of children of this age become slaves to the state, nor the country. Remember they are your children and they are God's children. Amen!!!!!!

The poster directly above...
...gives religious kooks a bad name.

Phylo
"You said it is NEVER right to kill an old lady to steal her handbag. Therefore it is an ABSOLUTE.
What if she's a terrorist and has the trigger for a nuclear bomb in her purse?
Are sure you want to stand by that "never" comment?"

Of course I do. You have introduced an extra variable making "x" into "Y" again. Nowhere did I mention in my example that she was a nuclear- detonating terrorist, which of COURSE changes the whole NATURE of what you are doing, turning it into an act of self defense.

On the implicit assumption that she is a harmless old lady innocently going about her business, can you think of an exception where murdering her TO steal her handbag containing ONLY A dollar can be morally justified?

I hope not. And if not, then you also in fact believe in "moral absolutes" only you dont realise that you do.


david m
Thanks for the link. good info. and those stats, don't even take into consideration the "variables." Size of Planet, position from the Sun, position in the galaxy, existence of a Moon, existence of other planets to "protect"...etc, it makes the probabilities staggering!

Have another beer
Icthomasva- Have another beer, We in the family of God are praying for you. My personal family are very healthy, wealthy and happy people. Most of us live close to 100 yrs. old, with good health and plenty of family and love. Praise Jesus!!!! God Bless!!!!!

jcthomas
LOL. You remind me of another Thomas, he said,"Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe."

In his case, he got to do exactly that, but Jesus told him, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Noone's going to twist your arm Thomas. If you're intellectual honest, the evidence will lead you home.

legislating morality
I recall a lot of talk about "legislating morality" during the era of civil rights legislation. Now, a few decades down the line, we see that it may be a partial success: overt discrimination rarely happens; kids today are baffled at the description of Jim Crow laws. But attitudes are all over the lot, and demogogery lives.

Government schools
The government should have a very limited role in deciding what is taught to young people. This is the proper role of the parent/guardian. If people want to their children to learn the morality taught in public schools, they should have the same rights to government support as people who want their children to be taught Buddhist, Mormon or Christian morality. It is unjust and immoral for the government to use tax dollars to support only one system of morality, that being the system taught in government schools.

The Problem with Legislating Morality
....is that it's subjective. Sure, several people can agree on certain levels of morality, but others will not, how do we live with each person's interpretation?

Better that we decide that certain things in our community are given consequences:

We don't kill people/animals at whim. You can't walk down the street a just pull out a gun and start killing people.

We don't steal.

We don't touch another person without permission.

We don't tell people how to live their lives as long as they are not doing any of the above 3.

If we aren't giving someone a VALID choice, then we're controlling or manipulating them and as a society, we don't endorse that behavior.


I dare say that given these 5 things listed, is there anything that isn't covered?

true to life
Why are there still so many species of apes, gorillas, etc. if they are our ancestors?
- who said they were our ancestors they are more like distant cousins.

Personally i dont really care what someone belives that is your choice to make i only have a problem when people call me an idiot and a moron just cuz i dont think the same way they do.

Oh yeah and for all of you who are saying evolution is just a "Theory" well theory has a different meaning in science. In the scientific meathod you start with a hypothesis which you test and retest WITH CONSENTENT RESULTS. Only when it has been tested and retested with consentent results by many members of the field you are studying then is it promoted to Theory in which the process is repeated till it is promoted to law.

Just remmeber Gravity is only a theory too does that mean it doesnt exist.

response to Jimmy Joe
I agree that you can define the circumstances so narrowly that there is virtually no chance at all that doing x would be right or wrong.

But as soon as you set circumstantial qualifiers (like she's innocent) you are no longer talking about something that is absolute because absolute means "regardless of the circumstances."

If you take the definition of "absolute" seriously (as I do) then, in order to posit a moral absolute, you would have to name something that is right (or wrong) regardless of the circumstances.

So I challenge you to name something that is right or wrong regardless of the circumstances.

Phylo out.


kathy
i am a little confused how did you idea that just because the courts of the state of mass allow gay marraige that the govenor want to make kids prostitues your not making much sense.

More
I guess my prior post was to long to warrant comment... probably to long and not spaced well to read, but it seems as if most of this has drifted away from the original ideas on legislating morality and onto evolution and the necessity of religion to being moral. TO sum up the long post I made earlier: legislating morality is unconstitutional. It is also equivilent to that darling of the left, political corectness. What is political corectness but outlawing that which is offensive to us. Any time someone legislates morality, the right of the minority are infringed by a majority with a certain belief system. That can be anti-witchcraft, anti-black, or even anti-jew to name a few.

Homosexual Agenda
chr335-

Massachusetts claims that because of gay marriage they must indoctrinate the kids grade K-12 into the homosexual agenda. This training of kid's into devaint sexual practices is an attack of youth's innocence. Go to Massresistance.org. I promise you I am not overstating what is being taught to our youths.

Smoking Bans
and their ilk are the worst types of laws. They deny a business owner the right to decide what he will do with his business. If a business wants to be smoke free and it is not required, then if the food is good, he will draw the nonsmokers who hate smoking. If his business takes off, others will follow suit. Some business then will cater to the smoker. Eventually an equilibrium will be reached and both sides will be happy. Let the market decide, not someone who doesn't even go into the businesses affected.

Thomas Jefferson
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God"(this is a personal choice by each individual)

"that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship" (no one tells another how to live his/her life)

"that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions(keep government out of the business of bestowing a religous connotation or endorsement of ANY KIND, ANY TIME, or ANY PLACE)

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. (If this doesn't make the case for Article 7, Section 1 I don't know what does.)

Clearly, Jefferson points out that government is bound by the Constitution to stay out of religion, keep it as a private matter to each individual, and not disallow others to practice their own religion.

Over the years this has been hijacked. Unintelligently, many have quoted Jefferson as "it's written in the Consitution", when in fact, the exact wording is not there, but Jefferson so brilliantly explained it in this powerful missive in 1802 as to define strongly the terminology and its intent, which is a separation of church and state. To say otherwise, is to attempt to hijack it once again for your own personal agenda. As with all aspects of the Constitution, think about it, it's all about FREEDOMS!

Too many people have their interpretation of God, or not at all, to try and make it part of any aspect of government. Any government that has attempted to endorse religion in the past has not been successful.


Homosexuality and deviant?
If something is natural, how is it deviant? If it is the choice of two people to have sex and they are of the same sex, who are we to decide that that is deviant? As long as both participants are free to decide, let them be happy and keep your noses out of their lives. That being said, for any minority to become accepted, to continue to point out differences instead of also living and letting live is counterproductive. The main problem with most minority activist groups is that they exacerbate a situation by throwing things into peoples faces that are quite obvious (difference in orientation, skin color, religion) and expect that to not have a negative impact.

Constitution and Freedoms
The Constitution is not about freedoms. It is about limits and powers granted. The people are the ultimate holders of power. We surrendered some of those powers to the government for the common good. Anything not mentioned is kept by the people. The judiciary has continually hacked away at this and expanded the very limited powers granted the government to far overreaching powers. If the judiciary branch as a whole held to the original intent, this discussion and others like it would not be required. Congresss with the help of the judiciary has stolen what is not theirs.

chr335
you stated: Personally i dont really care what someone belives that is your choice to make i only have a problem when people call me an idiot and a moron just cuz i dont think the same way they do.

Hello? I never said that about anybody. I'm a Christian. A Roman Catholic at that! Why are you trying to attribute that statement to me??
It isn't some kind of "ploy" now is it?????

????
Massachusetts claims that because of gay marriage they must indoctrinate the kids grade K-12 into the homosexual agenda. This training of kid's into devaint sexual practices is an attack of youth's innocence. Go to Massresistance.org. I promise you I am not overstating what is being taught to our youths.

again how does them make them prostitues?

response to HKCindy
HKCindy said: "Phylo, thinkng about your desire to only teach "Fact" to children, is surprising. You don't believe in the material world, yet what want to teach kids is Reductionism. Materialism at its least."

Phylo: No, I don't want to teach children materialism, as in the philosophy that matter is the only thing that is real. I just think that, when it comes to science, we have to distinguish between experimental facts that can be tested and reconfirmed by anyone, and the writings of some people thousands of years ago that no one can possibly corroborate.


HKCindy said: "Our children are more than a glob of cells and globules. They have heart, and imagination, and spirit. Don't they at least deserve an education that speaks to all of who they are? Shouldn't we inspire our children? We teach them Red Riding Hood and Goldilocks and Shakespeare. Don't educators do a disservice to the children if the premier book of the foundation of Western Civilization is discarded to "protect" them?"

I'm not suggesting it be discarded. And I would have no problem if they wanted to teach the Bible as literature. The creation myth is actually quite profound in many ways. You might be surprised to learn that it fits well with Zen philosophy: For example, the creation myth portrays man's fall from grace as beginning when they eat from the tree of knowledge.

Zen philosophy posits that conceptual knowledge can be a useful tool, but if we're not careful, it can also separate us from what is Holy and Good. It's not a perfect fit, but there are parallels.

Phylo out.