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Wednesday, September 13, 2006
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
The University of New Hampshire's Teachable Moment
by Mike Adams
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It will probably come as a surprise to most readers that my speech in April at the University of New Hampshire ranks as one of the three I most enjoyed giving on a college campus. The speech, which was laced with sentences even more awkward than the opening line of this column, was almost as much fun as the speeches I gave at the University of Georgia and North Carolina State University.

The reason I so loved the speech at New Hampshire was that many of those who came to protest actually ended up agreeing with most of what I had to say. I complained bitterly about the increasing racial segregation on UNC campuses only to notice that people were nodding in agreement throughout the audience.

Later in the speech, when I asked those in the audience who “think that segregation is absolutely wrong” to raise a hand, it seemed all 250 people present did just that. The seating capacity was only 225 but the police, security, and a few reporters pushed the number to about 250 people with decidedly un-diverse views on racial segregation. I guess that sometimes a lack of diversity is a good thing.

In another portion of the speech I talked about a case at UNC-Greensboro involving the hiring of a convicted pedophile to work in the Office of Student Life. I compared the OSL decision to hire a pedophile - and to hire a porn star as a “sexual health expert” – with their refusal to fund any conservative speakers. I argued that self-proclaimed moral relativists really do see themselves as morally superior beings.

Later in the speech, I talked about my involvement in getting the convicted pedophile fired from his job at UNCG and expelled from school – he was also a student at the university. After highlighting some of the details of his criminal record, I asked those in the audience who “consider pedophilia to be absolutely wrong” – the UNCG case involved collecting pictures of eight year olds being raped – to raise a hand. Again, everyone present did, in fact, raise a hand.

Unfortunately, just five months after my speech, the subject of pedophilia is a hot topic at UNH. An internet sex crimes task force has established probable cause to arrest a 49-year old engineering professor on charges of soliciting sex from a minor. Following his arrest, he has been suspended from his duties at UNH. And members of the UNH community are expressing shock that such a seemingly good and certainly well-liked professor could (allegedly) do such a thing.

When I contacted UNH this week, here’s the official statement they offered:

As soon as we learned of the arrest of Professor David Watt, he was notified that he was on leave, effective immediately. He also is prohibited from campus. The UNH Police Department has cooperated with the Hollis Police Department and will continue to do so. This is a matter appropriately in the hands of the Hillsborough County Attorney’s Office.

Judging by the response of both the UNH community and the administration, it appears there is a universal feeling that pedophilia is wrong and that pedophiles are dangerous persons who need to be kept at a safe distance from the university population. But given the emphasis on tolerance, diversity, and moral relativism in recent years on campuses like UNH, such unified condemnation is confusing.

Therefore, I am asking the Office of Campus Diversity at UNH to use this unfortunate arrest as an educational tool to help clarify the seeming contradiction between tolerance of alternate lifestyles and the universal condemnation of pedophilia. I have put together the following questionnaire to be used as a guide in the event that UNH opens a formal dialogue on this touchy subject:

1. Does our subjective repulsion in response to pedophilia serve as an adequate basis for the moral condemnation of pedophiles?

2. If you answered “yes” to question number one, how to you respond to those who have a similar revulsion towards homosexuals or trans-gendered persons who are not pedophiles?

3. If society can come to accept homosexuality, why can it not come to accept pedophilia?

4. If your answer to question number three revolves around the issue of a minor’s inability to give consent, when does this ability usually develop? At the age of 10? At the age of 15? Is your answer arbitrarily chosen or is it somehow objective?

5. Since minors do not generally get pregnant without having sex, does your answer to question number four have any bearing on your views about parental notification laws in the context of abortion?

6. If Professor Watt is convicted, he may well serve time in prison. What criminal liability should attach to organizations such as Planned Parenthood who regularly conspire to keep information about statutory rape concealed from the authorities – all under the guise a preventing an erosion of a woman’s “constitutional right to privacy.”

These six questions should do a lot to foster serious discussion and debate. I hope UNH will add some questions to those I have offered here. The road from moral relativism to moral certainty is a long one. The first steps should not be taken lightly.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Commoner
An 11 year old girl is listed as a sexual predator for having sex with her 7 year old brother . . . and you don't think other children deserve or need protection from her? What if she was charged with poking childrens' eyes out? Would the young'uns need protection then?

pedophiles
are predators, in that they stalk, entice or use outright force to gratify sexual fantasies with a child who cannot give consent or even resist. It is always a form or rape...and therefore violence...to exploit a child in this way. Age is somewhat arbitrary here, but the law MUST set boundaries. Any such contact with a child 12 and under (in many if nor most states) is viewed as pedophilia. Sex with children who are teenagers may or may not constitute pedophilia accarding to the laws of a particular state, but is still viewed harshly by society, and is still illegal in all juristictions.
As always, Adams manages to muddy an otherwise useful debate by inferring that "moral clarity" should lead to condemnation and rejection of ALL GLBT people, basically because he doesn't like them. Fine. Let's have the debate. How does a gay man or transgendered woman in any way compare to a pedophile? A pedophile hurts people...namely children and their distraught families. A gay man, lesbian or trangendered person do nothing of the sort through their innate exsistance. They go to work, buy groceries and pay taxes, and do it without doing ANY INTRINSIC HARM TO ANYONE!! There is no valid, moral comparison between a criminal who pleasures himself on the suffering of others, and a group of people who Adams hates because he was told to hate them by an interpretation of Scripture written for people living in the desert 3000 years ago. The very idea of making this comparison is outlandish and sickening.

Sooooooooo, Commoner....
Does this mean that you don't condemn pedophilia? Because that happens in the bedroom you know. It sounds like you would answer "no" to the first question, and that we pursue pedophiles too harshly.

Regarding the case you mention, I'll agree that it sounds like it was mishandled. It may be a sad commentary on the impact of marketing sex to pre-teens, but it shouldn't have anything to do with going after adults.

celtic-dragon
Pedophile doesn't hurt anyone through their "innate existence" either; neither does a kleptomaniac. The harm only occurs when they act upon their urges. I'm not defending these types of people, but that is the logic you are using.

As far as the Scripture comment, I would suggest that, using your logic, all laws should be abolished since a large portion of them are based on some sort of ancient (or at least very old) codes and laws, and not just Judeo-Christian laws and codes.

Obviously, murder was wrong 3,000 years ago in the desert, but it is alright today in the city.

Jeff in Texas
Pedophiles predictably ACT upon their urges, and harm people. GLBT people harm nobody by being who they are. If you want to live by a 3000 year old set of rules laid down for a different culture, then do so by all means. Never mind that as a Christian, you are no longer bound by the Old Covenent, since you have been justified by the blood of Christ...
As for laws against murder...DUH!!! Someone harmed someone else!

Good debate-starter
Although I disagree with Celtic Dragon's interpretation of Scripture, in that I believe homosexuality is against God's will, I do see her point. Pedophilia is not equal to homosexuality. There is quite a difference in a grown man who molests a child and two grown men who, for whatever reason, wish to sleep together in the privacy of their own home.

Although I may not like the wording of Adams' questionnaire, I do like the fact that he seems to be supporting earnest debate. I don't think individuals on either side should have opinions unless they've thought them through. Saying "It just feels right" is not adequate, though a lot of people seem to say that.

I will respond to one of his questions that I find interesting. Feelings are not the source of morality. They sometimes point in the general direction, but all in all they should be disregarded. Personal revulsion, for example, is not the key reason that someone should disagree with pedophilia, homosexuality, etc. I, for example, am not repulsed by homosexuality. Neither are many of my female friends (can't speak for the straight guys I know, but that's another story). Anyway, that doesn't matter. My reasoning points to my objective interpretation of Scripture, and that is why I think homosexuality is a sin.

Although everyone will be disgusted by pedophilia, not everyone will be disgusted by homosexuality--yet that doesn't change the fact that it's a sin. It, however, is a sin that for the most part can be committed without harming others--a far cry from pedophilia.

An important thing for Christians to remember is to not let their personal distate for homosexuality get in the way of showing kindness and a respect for human dignity to those who practice it.

Hate
celtic-dragon,

Of course, the New Testament also maintains that homosexual relations are wrong, as are pre-marital relations and many other things.

Also, I agree with your point about pedophiles, I think they are sick and cannot be rehabilitated. However, I was simply saying that just because someone doesn't harm anyone else, that does not make the behavior right.

I take the Catholic view, even though I am not Catholic; just being homosexual is not a sin, but homosexual acts are sinful, just as casual heterosexual sex is.

I have no issue with the gay people, I just have a problem with people telling me I hate them just because I think what they are doing is wrong.

Pedos, Homos
It's incorrect to say that homosexuals harm nobody but themselves. Because of their lifestyle, homosexual men carry disease in the population. AIDS in this country has been mainly a homosexual disease, but has NOT been limited to the homosexual community. Simply put, thousands have died because of homosexual decadence.

Further, for years, homosexuals have had a political goal of undermining traditional values in America. Lesbians have been well represented in the feminist movement. Socialist/Marxist groups have sought to use normalizing promiscuity and homosexuality (among many other things, admittedly) as a way of undermining a society.

There are links between homosexuality and pedophelia as well. Molestation seems to be how homosexuals reproduce; molested boys are 5 times as likely to become homosexual. More than a third of all sex crimes are committed by the homosexual two percent of the population. Most pedophiles in the country are homosexual pedophiles.

Moreover, you don't a 3,000 year old document to know that homosexuality is perverse. You do, however, need common sense, and an antidote to P.C. thought-control.

And, yes, there is a slight movement afoot to normalize pedophelia, pederasty especially. EG: Clinton's attorney general wrote the forward to a book that advocated pedophelia.






Celtic-dragon
Homosexuals hurt no one by being homosexuals, but they hurt a lot of people (particularly teenagers) when they act upon their "right" to have same-gender sex. I know quite a few homosexuals and the honest ones admit they were all sexualized as young teenagers by a homosexual "helping them discover (their) sexual identity." In fact, I have never met a homosexual who started having homosexual sex after the age of 18.

Last year, a friend of mine learned that his 15-year-old son had been having sex with a 19-year-old neighbor boy. In our state, if it were a guy-girl thing it would be statutory rape and my friend could have done something to stop it, but because it was homosexual, supposed consensual sex, the DA wouldn't touch the case. My friend's son recently admitted that the older boy forced him the first time (they were drunk) and then threatened to tell their peer group about the relationship if it didn't continue. The gay child rapist has gone off to the military, so my friend's kid feels safe now to tell what happened.

His story is not isolated. When perverts of any stripe act on their compulsions somebody is bound to be victimized. Every gay and lesbian I know who is honest admits to first-time sexualization in adolescence by someone at least a bit older and more experienced in homosexuality. They also report they felt a great deal of conflict about the encounter until they "embraced" their "true nature." Except I know two former lesbians and one former gay who say that was just their way of dealing with the molestation. If it was all normal and healthy behavior, then they must not have been molested, was the way they tried to think of it.

God, being outside of time and space, knew this time was coming. He didn't just give the Hebrew law against fornication of all sorts to a desert people 3500 years ago. He gave it to us, for our protection.

Aurora
What the 19 year old did was a crime, and should have beem prosecuted. It is no different from any other form of statutory rape.

Celtic-dragon and ignorance of basics
"GLBT people harm nobody by being who they are."

True enough, and possibly if they kept to themselves instead of insisting that their lifestyle and predilictions are just as valid as normal human sexuality, they would do no one harm by what they do. It is unfortunate that many GLBT persons insist that they normal, no matter how the concept militates against logic and statistical analysis; it is this insistence of acceptance and validation that causes harm.

Celtic-dragon draws attention to the Covenant with the Jews. That Covenant was indeed sealed between Yahweh and the Children of Israel, and it is also correct that any Jew who converts to Christianity is no longer formally bound by the Law of Moses, though many continue to abide by it out of custom.

What's been ignored is Christ's statement that He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. He respected the Law and obeyed its spirit without being legalistic, much to the consternation of the Pharisees. If He had such respect for the Law (and He should; as one Aspect of the Trinity, it was His Law to begin with), it is logical to infer that He intended for the spirit of that Law to bind us who believe in Him - regardless of how far removed we are in time from His ministry.

No, Christ did not specifically identify the various paraphilias (such as homosexuality or pedophilia) to be intrinsically sinful; He didn't need to - it was set down in His Law. As a Christian, I am enjoined from persecuting or punishing paraphiliacs who harm no one but themselves, but I am specifically told that I must bear witness to His truth and say that these paraphilias lead one away from God; that is, after all, what sin really is - anything that leads one away from Him.

We must speak the truth; we must defend the sanctity of all human life; we must counsel our brethren when they err and pray for them when they refuse to repent; we must protect that which Christ blessed. Nowhere are we taught to hate.

In Dr. Adams' article, he draws parallels between paraphilias in order to call attention to the question: if one paraphilia is reviled because of predation on children, why isn't another reviled because it undermines traditional human society, which has as its anchor the heterosexual nuclear family? If we accept homosexuality as valid and acceptable, do we not allow the camel's nose into the tent?

Celtic-dragon seems to believe that inviting the camel into the tent is the thing to do. I believe that the camel belongs outside where he can just be a camel. If GLBT persons want to just be what they are, fine; the rest of us can be polite about it. The instant that members of the GLBT community begin to insist that the NHMW (normal heterosexual men and women) community redefine itself to include them, they're guilty of doing to US what they don't want done to THEM - being told what they have to believe or do.

New Covenant upholds moral law...

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." [I Corinthians 6]

Do not be deceived. Christ said, "If you love me, then keep my commandments." [John 14:15]


Response to Celtic
Celtic,

You raise some legitimate questions and give good answers to questions 3, and 4. I'd actually like to read any response you may have to numbers 5 and 6.

My only comment is that despite what they say, the GLBT community does not merely demand to be left alone to do what they want in the bedrooms -- they demand that everyone else accept their lifestyle as equally normal and moral.

I'll say it another way so my point doesn't look so much like an unrelated tangent. If YOU'RE allowed to condemn what YOU believe is wrong, why can't Christians condemn what WE believe is wrong. If only some things are tolerable, who gets to decide what is tolerable?

And by the way, that "3,000 year old book" does not say to hate gays. It says that gay sex is a sin -- just like hetero sex outside of marriage.

post it
Can you provide documentation for the figures you use? BrianR worked in law enforcement, and has said that most of the molestation he encountered in California was cross-gender. Also, by whose calculations do you arrive at the figure of GLBT people being 2% of the population? There is virtually no agreement here. since most news outlets quote figures of 5% to 6%. As for the issue of gay men spreading disease, I would support criminalization of so-called "conversion parties" as a threat to public health for the very reason you mention. The deliberate spread of a disease, with the attendent strain on the health care system and cost to society is unconscienable.

What???
What book?
And, Post-it has to be right. It certainly can't be a genetic thing because Gays and lesbians do not reproduce. If it was genetic, it would have been bred out by now. Anyone with a minimum brain knows it has to be a learned behavior. I do believe that gender is a born trait. I think people are occasionally born in the wrong body. Those people usually opt for sex change operations if they can. I believe the vast majority of gays and lesbians know their gender is right, they just like to have sex with their own gender. acceptance is no longer enough. They want us to approve.

Pedophilia
In all the comments that agree that pedophilia is wrong and a pedophile is a pervert, where does that place the prophet Mohammed and his marrying of a 9 year old girl?

Pedophile or prophet? Or both?

Steve O
It's getting kind of busy here. WRT question 5, I support parental notification, excepting situations of abuse from the father or stepfather. I believe that there should be some mechanism for counseling to determine if that is in play. As for question 6, I strongly disagree with Planned Parenthood withholding that information. I have not yet been to law school, so I cannot really comment on the appropriatness of criminal sanctions there. I don't know what legal protections they have to maintain this policy.

Pedophile or prophet?
Since a prophet is supposed to be one who knows and understands the will of God, I find it hard to believe that a pedophile can be a prophet; he can only pretend to prophecy.

ValientForTruth
Nice to see you back. When you quote Christ in this context, do you think He meant keeping the commandment in Deuteronomy that a child should be led forth from the village and stoned to death if he is profligate and disrespectful? Just wondering. There are REAL big chunks of Old Testament law that just are not applicable in a modern society...and some that are, like washing your hands before you eat. We have brains, people. God gave us the ability to make some judgements here on what works as times change. Either Christianity is a FAITH based religion, or it can go back toward legalism. Make up your minds. In any event, what bearing does it play on formulaing law? We have gone over that subject time and time again here. If you want America to be a Christian country for conservative Christians only, then you don't have America anymore. You get a variation on 16th century Switzerland. No thank you.

Dear celtic-dragon
"If you want America to be a Christian country for conservative Christians only, then you don't have America anymore. You get a variation on 16th century Switzerland. No thank you." I have only one comment: get used to it. Humanity tried both Marxism and moral relativism in the Great Experiment known as Soviet Russia. It didn't work. End of story.

Celtic
You're right. Nix that comment about most pedophiles being homosexual. I was writing too fast; the figures rattling around in my head were that homosexuals rape children at far higher rates than hetereos, and that 90+% of male victims were raped by men.

But yeah, nevertheless, most pedophiles 66ish% are hetero.

The rest seems to be accurate according to my (pretty good) memory of stats I've seen.

Because of the politics of this debate, you'll always get counter-statistics and counter-studies. I'd need a full day to get all the figures together; I'd rather you googled them yourself.


Robert E Lee
Last I checked, we are a constitutional republic, with legal safeguards built into state and federal laws to protect ethnic, religious and other minorities from discrimination and oppresion. This is not the Soviet Union, or Pol Pot's Cambodia, or any other despotic regime you care to think of. You don't get to ride roughshod over people you don't like, just because you think you have a mandate from God. Get used to it!

Post-It
I do admit there does seem to be a higher correlation between some gay men and pedophilia. The etiomology is well beyond my competancy to discuss. Hey, I'm just a senior in geology trying to buck for law school. No sociology in my background. :-(

My son is home from school and I am
HUNGRY!!!! So you all be nice while I'm gone. ;-) I'll be back after a while to see where we are.

I understand what you meant
Post-It writes: You're right. Nix that comment about most pedophiles being homosexual.

But yeah, nevertheless, most pedophiles 66ish% are hetero.

.
.

The confusion comes from the fact that homosexuals make up only 2% of the population but commit 34% of sex crimes against children. Basically a homosexual is 17 times more likely to be a pedophile then a heterosexual.

Why consent?
Several points:
1) According to the amicus curie brief presented by the GLBT community during Lawrence vs. Texas which legalized sodomy, no more than 1% of the population is homosexual. If you want to dispute that statistic, take it up with the legal eagles in the GLBT community.

2) If sex is about pleasure and not about procreation, why do you have to be an adult to consent to sex? Children consent to playing video games, going on amusement park rides, eating ice cream and myriad other pleasures every day.

3) If you want to argue that sex exposes people to potentially deadly diseases and thus requires adult consent, so does eating commercially prepared food (food poisoning), using public restrooms, etc.

If we admit that sex is, or can be made into (through the use of contraceptives), a simply pleasurable activity, then we are arguing in favor of children having sex.


answers
1 - Obviously not. The justification for morally condemning pedophilia is that it unnecessarily harms children.

2 - N/A

3 - Society could come to accept pedophilia. The question is, "is it likely to?". The answer is no. Historically, the further back you go the more likely societies were to condone child-marriage and condemn homosexuality.

The trend seems to be that societies have become less tolerant of sexual relations with minors and more tolerant of homosexuality. The age of consent is lowest today, in fact, in some of the areas where homosexuality is tolerated the least.

I'm not saying there's a connection, but it disproves the notion that, "if we accept homosexual behavior we'll eventually accept all sexual behavior."

4 - The true age of consent probably depends on the individual. People mature differently depending on their life experiences. So we objectively choose lower limit (I'd say 18) that most effectively protects our children without abrogating the rights of our adults.

5 - Yes.

6 - IMO, if such cases can be proved, they should be charged as accessories to statutory rape.


Scripture references
Celticdragon

In your response to Valiantfortruth, you demonstrate a lack of Biblical understanding.

One of the keys to understanding Scripture is to know who is speaking and who is being spoken to. Old Testament law was given to the Jewish people at that time to teach them the character of God and to provide a clear line of demarcation between the Jews and the pagan nations they encountered, and the penalties were, in fact, severe.

The character of God, of course, never changes. This is what Valiant meant by referring to the New Testament upholding "moral" law. That is, right from wrong. It is still wrong in the New Testament (even under grace) for a child to be disrespectful. However, the Old Testament PENALTIES for violations of God's moral law do not apply under the New Testament covenant of grace. This is because of Christ having paid sin's penalty, once and for all.

That being said, New Testament believers are still under the moral law, and have even a greater obligation to honor God by adhering to His principles and laws because they ARE under grace. They don't do it out of fear of being stoned, however, they do it because they love God and His Son.

So when the Old Testament tells us that homosexuality is an abomination, that is a clear illustration of the character of God, which has never changed, and will never change. The sins He hated then, He still hates now.

In Christ, God made a provision for sinful man to be reconciled back to Him.

This is why Valiant quoted the verse where Paul refers to believers who were formerly caught up in all manner of sin, but have been washed clean.

Grace does not give anyone permission to redefine God's eternal character. It just means you can be forgiven when you repent. And if you are caught up in the homosexual lifestyle, you need to repent.

More on Scripture references
More to the point, VFT offered two NEW Testament references, to which CD responded with "When you quote Christ in this context, do you think He meant keeping the commandment in Deuteronomy..."


My answers
1. Does our subjective repulsion ...?
No. I am repulsed by people who eat mushrooms or stinky cheese. But I don't think the French should be outlawed.

2. N/A

3. If society can come to accept ...?
It certainly can. Aztec society accepted murder and canabalism.

4. when does this ability (consent) usually develop?
Unanswerable. But for law a testable condition must be set. Our society has set 18, but we allow courts to override this in specific cases (minor tried as adult or innocent due to mental incompetence)

5. ... parental notification laws
Absolutely. Parents must be notified. However, protections from abusers must be in place. If a child must be protected from an abusive parent, that parent should be in jail and have rights removed.

6. ...information about statutory rape concealed from the authorities
This is contempt of court, conspiracy, withholding evidence, perjury, and concealment of evidence. All have their own penalties.

To the uber question, homosexuality between two individuals without force or intimidation may be a sin, but not a crime.

Sex between two individuals when one is below the age of informed consent and the other is not or through force, intimidation, or position of authority (A President & an intern, teacher and student, boss and secretary) should be punished as an assault regardless of circumstances.

Sex betwee two individuals below the age of informed consent should be treated as a mental health issue. If one or both is found to be capable of informed consent, they should be treated as adults. If not, confinement, therapy, and possibly removal from unconcerned parents is indicated.

Just my ideas.

Homosexuals and pedophilia
In the recent mess about priests and child abuse the statistic i read (never refuted) was 80% involved homosexual sex. Its hard to escape a conclusion that homosexuals are more likely to commit pedophilia than heterosexuals. Does anyone dispute homsexuals as a group are more promiscuous than heterosexuals and are AIDs carriers and inoculators far out of proportion to their number? Do we all pay a price for homosexuals in our midst? I say yes. Accordingly, while i know a couple homosexuals who at least say they are monogamous, and have no inclination to persecute folks who may have done no wrong, I oppose any accordance of an equal and accepted place in the public view. Public opinion is the foundation of culture and decency. Just as the combination of Clinton, ML and the MSM produced increased oral sex, so de facto acceptance of homosexuality will increase its occurance. No thank you. There are some things an 8 year old can't understand and doesn't need to be informed of. Cultural values matter. Not all behaviors are equal.

Annfan
Back for a moment, while dinner is cooking. Let's see. A lack of Biblical understanding? Perhaps, but things that were ritually impure (like eating pork as well as homosexuality) should then all be ok, or none whatsoever. We tend to gloss over the embarrasing bits of the Bible (like Paul exhorting slaves to live in fear and trembling, and further stating that escaped slaves should return to their master) and dismiss them correctly as anachronisms, while focusing on parts that seem to justify and agree with our own predjudices and dislikes. It becomes so much easier to really get into your own feelings of self-rightous indignation and, for some...hatred, if you can say that God is against who you are against. On the basis of a very few verses in the Bible, you can get scores of people howling abour "abominations" and such, without anyone thinking about what God really intends for GLBT people today. I won't even get into whether those verses are actually inspired by God, or if they were written by men for their own purposes...
I am not convinced that the Bible is inerrant, so while I accept on faith that Christ died for the remission of sin, I question large parts of Old and New Testament teaching that seem at odds with the character of a loving (and just) God who is truly concerned with the well being of His children.

Jeff
Good post, and thoughtful as always.

Pedophiles
The kids at Duke, if convicted will be placed on the sexual preditor listing where hysterics will contribute to their lawful destruction by including them in the group receiving a cultural death sentence.

Pedophiles who are correctly diagnosed should be in jail for life. There should be no need for the Sex Offenders Registry if pedophiles who harm children were executed, and the pedophiles who routinely molest children are sentenced to life in prison.

annfan
I have an honest question. I understand how Old Testiment moral laws are applibale even after Christ, whereas the penalties prescribed are not, but does this also mean that the ridiculous Old Testament laws are still applicable (e.g. Forbidding the wearing of a cotton/poly blend shirt or eating shrimp)? In other words, I've had trouble understanding how one can seperate the laws that seem arbitrary in present day times with other morally ambiguous laws (e.g. homosexuality).

Before I step out again
I must say that it has been a pleasure having this debate without the usual vitriol and anger that seems to go with it...from both sides. BBL

Christian Warriors
1. The old testament was updated by Christ, and the New Testament should be the guiding document of observant Christians. Apparently this is a mystery to most of our bloggers.

The Jews lived among a variety of people and after some period of practice were content to follow Jewish law, while allowing other groups to be governed by their laws. This was kinda the theory that allowed the US to survive is spite of a variety of opinions concerning right and wrong.

The US does not need a dose of Mike Adam's governance, any more than Adams or any of us should submit to the PC Lords that Adams righteously contends with. But it seems that Adams and many of his admirers would like to substitute their Iron Fist for the PC fist which supported by media, and liberal government has had the upper hand in our culture for the last 15 years.

Ok, as a gay man
...who was sexually abused as a child, I have to say that I am always offended when people play the "homosexuality will lead to pedophilia" card. It is nonsense. As others have said, you can quite easily forbid sex with children because it is inherently damaging to the child while permitting sex between consenting adults of the same sex because there is no obvious way in which it is damaging to participants.

Yes, if you are a Christian you may believe that homosexuality damages the soul. You have every right to believe this and every right to speak your beliefs. But you do not have the right to force me, a non-Christian, to live according to your religion's precepts.

As for gays being pedophiles at higher rates than heterosexuals, this is simply not true. Those statistics that suggest a higher incidence of pedophilia among homosexuals assume instances of man-boy sexual molestation are perpetrated by homosexuals because the molestation is homosexual in nature. But if you look at the sexual relationships that men who molest boys have with other adults - and studies have done exactly that - you will find that well over 90% are involved in heterosexual adult relationships. In other words, a man who molests a boy does not become a homosexual by virtue of the molestation, any more than a homosexual man would become straight after molesting a girl. For what it's worth, the man who molested me was a robustly heterosexual man who married twice and had four children.

I understand that many people have a visceral aversion/moral issue with homosexuality, and that's fine. But it is simply disrespectful to take the pain that I and many other people went through as children and use it to advance a crusade against gays. People who do so should be ashamed.

Abusers
Oh, and despite the fact that homosexuals make up only 1% of the population, they are responsible for 30% of the sexual abuse of minors. A heterosexual abuser tends to have less than ten victims, a homosexual abuser tends to have over 100.

So, while homosexuals are, in raw terms, abusing in lower *numbers* than homosexuals, their *per capita* abuse rate is enormously higher. And it's per capita that we are supposed to pay attention to...


Pistol..
The various male homosexuals that I had to work with (while employed by USWest) all spoke of having sex with boys. Add to their comments their support of NAMBLA and I'd have to say, they not only have a weakness for boys, they crave them.

(One male homosexual made the comment that he could make it with a certain woman (a homosexual who worked a few floors down) as she looked like a boy.)


Zap
I am so sorry for what happened to you. I know it is difficult to talk about being a survivor of abuse, as well as being a GLBT person in a forum that can be hostile. God bless you.

Interesting Zap
I don't quite follow some of your logic. What does the incidence of pedophilia have with consenting sex? How do you explain the 80% homosexual abuse? More homosexual child abusers in the priesthood than heterosexual child abusers? This could well be possible. 80/20 seems a little high.
How do you explain 90% of homosexual child abuse being committed by heterosexuals? I see a possible explanation for your own sad experience as being at the hands of a bi-sexual. If you were going to commit pedophilia would you be more likely to be attracted to a male or female?

I have no viscerl/moral aversion against homosexuals. I did't flinch when i hugged a homosexual in my therapy group years ago. I figured if i could hug a female in non-erotic support, he could hug me the same way.

I am against pain, misery and hunger in any case that comes to mind.

Celtic_Dragon
Thank you for your warm heart. Nothing nicer than more light than heat.

Anti-Socialist
As a GLBT person, I find the idea that these men were congregating to discuss and advocate the criminal exploitation of young boys to be abhorrant. I would advise anyone hearing this kind of conversation to make a complaint to your company Human Recources or equal opportunity advisor, concerning possible sexual harrasement. This has no place in our society, much less the work place.

Heavens c-d
I had no idea you were GLBT. I just figured out a couple days ago you were female. This takes a bit of the bloom off your supporting comment, but you still sound like a nice person. Come to think of it, you gain points for refusing to pick fights with some of the more hostile folks. Perhaps that sword gets a bit heavy after some time.

Consent
Consent for many people seems to be the touchstone for morality. For example, in Germany, a homosexual cannibal was found not guilty of murdering his victims because of their consent to be eaten.

This is ridiculous. Consent is not an element of moral action except in contract. If I consent to be killed by my murderer, he is no less guilty of intentionally killing a human being with malice, for example. The same goes for sexual offenses.

The idea that peodiphilia is wrong because the child cannot consent is preposterous. The child cannot LEGALLY consent, but that has nothing to do with whether the child can actually consent. This means that the legal prohibition is subject to change to reflect the opinion of the judiciary, just as it did in Lawrence v. Texas.

DocNatCole
Apparently, someone is taking my advice to randomly post arguments to heart.

Pistol
When I first started posting on TH, I took some heat for bringing up my GLBT status in everything. Honestly, it doesn't have to enter every discussion, of course. I also have been moderating my own response to people who want to be hateful for its' own sake, and concentrate on talking to people who want to converse in a civil fashion. I found that strident advocacy doesn't really get results. Luis did manage to really upset me the oother day on Adams' last thread by accusing me of exploiting or even harming my own son. After talking it over with Scottie, Cynewulfe, Jay, and others, I am better prepared to handle truly hateful and despicable attacks from people like him. Also, since you missed that news flash, I am a transgendered woman. :-)

c-d
You have blown me away. 8-). I just sat here and laughed at myself for seeing none of this coming. I am so square i am not even certain whether a transgendered woman started or ended up as a woman. I am congratulating myself for using the same GLBT label you applied to yourself. A good CMA move, in the circumstances. You are perfectly correct GLBT status is irrelevant in the realm of ideas, as concerns an idea's validity. I just made a similar point on another thread. Right now i wish you best of luck in your parenting role. I am a single parent and my own best guide is whenever i feel i must do something out of duty or discipline or to preserve the way things should work, i go take a nap. When i see(sometimes dimly) as best my Creator shows me a path however rocky that leads to the greatest good for all, i take it. hasn't failed me yet (knock knock). By the way, i completed 84 hours on my BSEE while working full time. Hang in there on that law degree.

To Jay in NC, if you did not see this
(I posted this on one of Dr. Adam's recent columns, but don't know if you saw it.)

First, I apologize if things that I wrote added to your pain in dealing with the struggles you face every day. That is the last thing I would want to do, as I am filled with admiration for your determination to change, and to follow God's will for your life. As others have pointed out, we ALL as human beings sin, and have our own struggles and trials to overcome. I can only imagine that your particular trial must be one of the very most difficult to be afflicted with, as sexual drives are so strong. But, the flip side is, you have no possible better partner to help you overcome those unwelcome feelings than our Lord, Jesus Christ. He knows and loves you, and desires to help you, far above what anyone else ever could. As He said to the prophet Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." (Jeremiah 1:5) As to His love, it is INFINITE. He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane, when He took upon Himself the sins and pains of all Mankind, so excruciatingly that He sweat "great drops of blood." (Luke 22:44) Christ suffered such agony willingly, and that He endured on the Cross, because of His infinite love for His "children," which includes ALL who have, who are now, and who will ever live. He literally "bought our Redemption" with an unimaginable Price.

BTW, I certainly did not mean to imply that I believe remaining celibate is committing a sin. (NO indeed, I was celibate myself for a couple of decades before marrying my husband of 15 years.) Nor do I believe that the sexual relationship of a man and wife was only intended by God for reproduction. I believe that it is a glorious and SACRED gift of God to mankind, and that is precisely why promiscuity and other perversions are such an "abomination" to Him.

Hopefully, you will some day be in a marriage with a loving, patient, Christian wife--and you too, (and two) will share that glorious, sacred gift from God. But, until then, don't be discouraged. Every day that you do not succumb to those unwelcome "desires of the flesh," is another day's strength you have acquired on your path following God's will for you. I trust that you read the scriptures and pray to Him daily for His help to strengthen you for the challenges you face. Beyond that, you must be aware that many others in your situation HAVE succeeded in overcoming unwanted same-sex attraction to the extent that they are happily married to an opposite sex spouse, and raising children? (BTW, did you see the photos and read the report on NARTH's website, of the results at the APA convention? Great progress, huh?) I'm assuming also that you have availed yourself of support groups and counseling from a therapist of the NARTH philosophy, because God usually works through the hands of other human beings to help us in our daily struggles.

celtic-dragon
"Also, since you missed that news flash, I am a transgendered woman. :-)"

First, I'll offer the insight that you aren't. Now, what exactly do you mean by that?

To Tricia
Oh, I saw it. :-) Thank you. Don't worry; you didn't do anything that made it harder for me, so I hope you didn't stress about that. Forgive me for not commenting. I had assumed everyone had moved on to the next column by then.

I don't know much about NARTH, though I do keep up with the goings-on at Exodus International (I'm not a member, though--I just know some people online who are). I don't have a therapist or support group exactly. The trouble is I've never heard a local church endorse or support any ex-gay group (though I've heard plenty support the defeat of gays' political agenda--that's a little lop-sided, ain't it?)

But I do have a blog (www.collegejay.blogspot.com, if you're interested). The e-mails and comments that it has generated have been therapy enough. Mostly, though, I'm just trying to enjoy my freshmen year of college and grow as a Christian--the whole sexuality thing will catch up later. Thanks again, Jay.

Pistol
Lol, thanks for the encouragement on school. I need to finish the geology degree first! After 20 years away from school, it has been a major adjustment.

.
.

Celtic Dragon
Glad to have your partipation. Responding to part of one post of yours, "If you want America to be a Christian country for conservative Christians only, then you don't have America anymore."
What do you mean by 'a Christian country'? Some people think that means a country bound by Biblical doctrine. Even as a Christian, I disagree with that.
I believe that America is 'a Christian country', but that just means we have a country where the Government can not force people to worship in any particular way or support with taxes any particular denomination. 'Freedom of religion' was put in our Constitution by Christians, who wanted all people to be free to worship however they wanted to, or not at all, as they chose.

Zap
Just wanted to toss a thought your way in response to your post. You wrote, "You have every right to believe this and every right to speak your beliefs. But you do not have the right to force me, a non-Christian, to live according to your religion's precepts." That's not quite true.
In America, no one can pass a law that dictates how you worship - that's what "freedom of religion" is all about. But we can and do pass laws that are religious in nature and carry the full force of law. In most states, adultery was at one time a crime. These laws were gradually repealed as "we the people" decided we didn't want to be bound by that law anymore. No court threw it out. If the people wanted to reinstate such a law, they could through their elected reps. Such a law would be valid, and you and I would be 'forced to live according it'.

Finally
A thread consisiting of civil discourse on GLBT topics. My faith in this forum is restored. You are all to be congratulted for making your points without hurling invectives. I think we agree on more than we disagree, and on the things which we disagree, we don't need to be disagreeable. Since this thread is pretty long already, I'm moving on. Wish I had gotten here earlier, pretty good discussion.

H/t Celt

Liberty Promoter
You are correct. I was refering to the notion of the United States being governed under Biblical doctines similar to Geneva under John Calvin. Most Christians wouldn't want that sort of thing of course. I have come across a few who do.

GermanGreek
A transgendered person in the context I mean is more properly known as a transexual...that is, a person with Gender Identity Disorder, or Gender Dysphoria in accordance with the DSM IV used by American Psychiatric Assosciation. You can find a huge number of sites on the web that are informative in nature on how a person transitions from one gender to another, why this even happens in the first place, and the legal and ethical guidlines that counselors and healthcare providers must abide by as they manage (or in some cases, deny!) the process. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot just "get a sex change" in this country on demand. Getting clearance for this procedure is controlled by very strict rules, and it typically takes several years of therapy and preparation before permission is given.

Immorality & sex
Coming down on the homosexuality is a sin side, I have to say there is a greater sin ignored.

There is some damage to society by homosexuality being widely expressed. But the greater danger and damage is heterosexual activity outside of marriage.

Adams does a disservice by not pointing that out. Sex belongs in marriage and only in marriage. Any extramarital sex, hetero or homosexual or transgendered, is a sin and wrong.

Sometimes someone like Jay can be helped by reflecting on that. There are many people who have strong heterosexual urges but don't give in because they aren't married.

I am certain God wants us to manage and control our sexual urges, independent of whether one is homosexual, hetero, or "transgendered" meaning they think God made a big mistake in them.

DocJ
Worse than that, most people do not have saving faith in Jesus Christ, which means that every breath they take is a sin! Is Adams doing a disservice by not discussing it way more than anything else?

You can tackle a problem by starting somewhere . . . it's really okay.

DocJ
""transgendered" meaning they think God made a big mistake in them."

That's why I can't indulge the T's in their pronoun choices, because God disagrees. It would be hypocritical of me to espouse God's word here, and not there, in the Bible, and not the nuclei.

Jerubaal
Why would I say that God made a mistake? My spouse has cerebral palsey. Did God make a mistake with her? Did God make a mistake when a child has a
cleft palate or a bad heart valve? No, of course not. Human biology is an imperfect system, and flaws show up. Researchers in Europe and here are investigating the possibility of prenatal hormonal problems that may influence the development of transgender issues in the child after birth. It is well documented that a male fetus who does not receive testesterone at critical development stages will be born as an apparent female. This is known as Androgen Immunity Syndrome, or AIS, and until the widespread use of in-utero DNA testing, this problem typically wasn't caught until the parents brought their daughter to an OB/GYN to find out why she wasn't menstrating. There, they would find she had no internal female reproductive system. The suspicion among some researchers is that lesser degrees of hormonal imbalance may result in feelings of gender dysphoria. A story on 60 Minutes two weeks ago focused on this very issue, linking hormonal influences in the womb with genetics and environment to seek a causative relationship to gay and trans-sexuality. As I said before, I do not believe that God made a mistake. I am the way I am, and that's alright.

Homosexual Acts and sin
Everyone seems to forget one thing. The almighty made us in his image and that image alone. You justify classifying yourself however you want to, it sill boils down to he made man and woman. If you want go around liking men good then do so and same with women.

You see the almighty gave a thing called free will. You either follow his way or you don't, no gray areas. As for christians we try to follow as best we can, but we stumble. When we do stumble, because we ARE NOT perfect we ask him for forgivness pick ourselves up and go on. Thats how the almighty said we are to live our lives. But remember you will be held accountable for you actions by the almighty, wether it be a gay lifestyle or telling those little white lies, in his eyes they are all the same.

NRAlifer
As much as I respect guns and those who own them, you are off base with this "no pity" comment. I am disgusted with child abuse, but if I want to follow Jesus, I must cultivate compassion, I Cor 13 being a useful template. I have to imagine being in the child molester's shoes, imagining how torturous and awful it would be to carry such a load of sin, and how hopeless I would feel.

The last time I read the N.T., I was struck with how often the witnesses described Jesus as compassionate.

best,
docj

Jerubaal
Jerrubal, I don't follow the utter depravity notions of some christians, so I wouldn't support all your points. Remember that Utter Depravity is only one view of christianity. My view is in Matt 25:31 ff, which doesn't say anything about believing in Christ being a criterion for being on the Right Hand of the King. I completely believe many buddhists will be on the right hand of the King, and I take C.S. Lewis as a conspirator in this theory, last book of Narnia.

That said, I think our Christian society is harsh on homosexuals but 'way too accepting of adultry. If anyone has had sex outside of marriage, please repent, turn to the Lord, and confess your sin. Just my humble opinion, but illegitimacy is a greater threat to our society than homosexuality, more damaging to innocent children.

We all get uptight about child abuse, and rightfully so. We fail, and our society fails, to condemn the sexual behavior that breaks up families as well as results in children having children. As long as we tip-toe around this, I have the feeling that we as a country are under the Lord's condemnation. IMHO.

Bob is correct......
concerning God's/Jesus's condemnation of homosexuality and the other perversions. History is replete with examples of how these "harmless" lifestyles, along with corruption, the loss of rights, and the loss of moral clarity, lead to the fall of all great civilizations. Rome died, not from external invasion, but from internal rot. The European Empires all died from these very same illnesses. Today, Europe is a cesspool of degenerate behavior. It lacks the will to try and rehabilitate itself. Like ancient Rome, modern Europe will be buried and forgotten by it's invaders.

The U.S. is following in Europe's footsteps and will cease to exist within the next 100 years if it doesn't take the medicine it needs to recover.

Muhammed was no prophet. Although, he was concerned about his profits! He made up a phoney religion centered around a pagan moon diety named Allah, embraced aspects of other cults (the meteor that is worshiped is from an older cult), stole bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian truth, and sold it off as revelation.

Of course, anyone with half a brain knows a lie when he hears it and this simple truth is why public schools, the MsM's, leftist hate groups, and the democrats, are giving it their all to dumb down our children (the ones they haven't tried to murder anyway) and force their beliefs on the uneducated masses in an attempt to get them to believe that perversion is normal. This is evil pure and simple and our only hope is to denounce it and turn away.

Where is the love?
It's been said that there is no greater love than to die for others. Total sacrifice. Not a feeling, but an action. Could that "die[ing]" be reasonably broadened to include sacrificing one's desires for the benefit of others, that is, broaden it from physical death to the killing of one's selfishness? If so, where is the love in any sex outside of marriage? Does all sex outside of marriage bring with it potential harm to others? Does it ALWAYS increase health risks, emotional risks, both to the partners and to those the partners come in contact with, both physically and emotionally? If so, can one put one's partner at risk and love the partner at the same time? (Admittedly, there is sex inside of marriage that can harm also, but can it occur if one truly loves and always puts the partner first?)

Where is the demonstration of love? Or is the aforementioned definition inaccurate?

The body and sex
One element that lies somewhat below the radar is the uniqueness of sexual activity. For Christians, I Cor. 6:14-20 indicates that sexual sin is unique in its nature. A distinction is made between sin outside the body versus sin that joins bodies, namely sex. Believers have Christ dwelling within them via The Holy Spirit, and are admonished that joining oneself to a harlot joins Christ to a harlot.

For the non-Christian, this may seem irrelevant, but the uniqueness of sexuality still may be useful to consider. Most will agree that the sexual union between individuals (hetero, & homosexual included) is unique and tends to form a bond that moves a relationship to a different level.

For a strict materialist, inserting a finger into an ear or sexual organ into a bodily orifice may simply be differing molecular structures coming into close proximity. However, most will quickly see and assert that there's more to life than that. The emotions that tend to be attached to such a discussion thread as the above, though today much less than at other times, underscores the fact that sexuality strikes close to the core of our humanity, and identity. Mr. Adams rightly points out that corporate, subjective repulsion of something may be a slippery slope, and that objective, defensible, measurable, and enforecable reasons for making laws are necessary. Sliding scales, and camels' noses in tents are figurative examples of what happens when we play with definitions.

Thus, how we define ourselves necessitates appeal to some authority for establishing the principles whereby we must make judgements. Ancient, or universally accepted codes of conduct therefore, are often used as authoritative guides for establishing acceptable and unacceptable conduct in society, and ways to explain who we are. Moral principles derived from the Jewish Law, prophets, and writings, and the New Testament have traditionally been appealed to and used to formulate laws in the U.S. As a law and justice professor, and a Christian, Adams routinely points out the disparity between moral relativists and people guided by a solid code of conduct. The depth of this thread is a testimony to the unique nature of sexuality and laws that pertain to it in society. I'm thankful that we are all afforded a forum to wrestle with this very important topic, because it's not going away any time soon. Our greatest challenge seems to be how to have reliable standards that apply to all, yet express compassion to people who violate standards and how to assist them in the change. Or, if change is impossible or not chosen, what can be done? Specifically, why are my tax dollars usable for paying for a sex change? Why, as an employer, would I not be allowed to fire an employee for showing up dressed as a woman with a skirt, blouse and high heels one day and as a man in a suit the next day? The depth whereby we relate to one another usually does not go much deeper than the core of male and female designations. Thus, the basic conduct distinctions outlined in the ancient documents (commonly known as The Bible) and its authoritativeness to formulate laws used in the formation of The U.S. have served us well so far, and a conservative view will usually be that we need strong, compelling reasons to change.

CELT-
Hi. I am just a bit confused and perhaps you can shed some light? You are a trangendered woman, meaning you were physically male but changed the outward appearance to match the inner person, correct?

If this is true, and you have a female spouse, is the correct assumption that you are now in a lesbian relationship? Or have I mixed up somewhere?

I understand you have strong feelings regarding the GLTB community and am curious how you present that to your child.

Thanks for your time in responding.
~Aloha

to DocJ in post to Jerubaal
can you explain John 14:6 in light of your viewpoint? it seems to contradict what your understanding of the passage in Matthew is. I just open up Matthew and do not see where belief in Christ as the Risen Savior was not required when He culls the goats from the sheep.

(if this is addressed after DocJ's post, I apologize. I stopped and typed and now I'll finish reading.)

"No" to question 1
Dr. Adams -

My answer to question 1 is NO. I am surprised that you appear to think that the correct answer is YES. The reason that pedophilia is wrong is the same reason that homosexual activity and adultery are wrong - because God says that they are wrong. This takes it out of the realm of subjectivity altogether and plunks it squarely into an objective analysis of what God has said. Aside from that, I agree with you. And I think that a rational, objective debate on moral relativism (&/or a set of topics that moral relativists think are important - same thing) would be a good thing.

ProfBlog
excellent comments!

conservatives, pragmatism, etc
I often tell people that I am conservative in my politics and my personality - it takes a lot for me to accept change, let alone embrace it!

However, I have also been told that I am too pragmatic by other conservatives. I got into very warm water in college in the pro-life organization when I said that we (pro-lifers) needed to reframe the argument because we had lost the momentum to NARAL etc. and rape, incest, and life of mom had become too important to most people. Why fight 100% when you can effectively fight 97% and go back after the other 3% later?? I am glad that it was reframed by others. With the exposing of partial-birth abortion, we had a swing toward the right. Parental notification has more support. NOW and NARAL tend to be seen as loonies instead of normal. Those are good things. We are working one step at a time.

So on that point (pragmatism), I think that politically and faithfully conservative Christians need to pick our battles. I am still working through exactly how I feel about the adoption issue, although working as a CASA and seeing the desperate need for foster parents, I think that I might soften on that issue too. (oops: run-on sentence. Full stop.)
I think that there are a number of sins that “equal” the negativity of active homosexual behavior. Excessive alcohol, chronic lying, adultery, fornication, etc. If there was not a push for “normalization” of the Lifestyle, I would suggest we leave personal sexual behavior between consenting adults alone. It is this “mainstreaming” that concerns me. Personal behavior that is sinful, or not, is not up to me. That’s a God issue. And no one has made me God (good thing too, there’d be lots of zzzzzapping going on). What we have to decide is how we deal with it in the social/legal arena.
In that direction, we the people have decided that preying on children is wrong. In general, we the people do not want marriage defined outside of the one man/one woman designation. Of course then we have to define male and female. I have just about decided that if someone is so desperate about gender confusion as to change his/her physical sexuality, then let them be as they think that they were meant to be. However, playing back and forth without making a decision is silly. That’s playing dress-up and employers etc shouldn’t have to deal with it. No, I do not personally agree, but I cannot see the great danger to society, if we define the parameters. And we the people have that right and obligation. We choose the manner and direction of the fight. Too often we (politically and faithfully conservative Christians) get nasty when we should try persuasion. We'd get nice folks like Celtic and Jay in our battles against the true enemies of society.

OK – as for Celtic not being able to love her son “properly”, however he was conceived and birthed. Can adoptive parents or step-parents not love their children properly? In the other direction (sorry, Celtic), can alcoholics not love their children? Personal sin or method of childbearing does not have to impede parental love. I’ll concede that alcoholics can choose not to love their children properly, but so can the parents in the “perfect” family down the street.

I am done. Today is the day for soapboxes for me it seems. I come to TH mostly for the posters. Thanks for the (mostly polite and convivial) discussion!!!!!

Nanarae, I suspect you're wrong
"And, Post-it has to be right. It certainly can't be a genetic thing because Gays and lesbians do not reproduce."

Mathematics used by geneticists shows that any gene, given the ability to breed freely, will stabilize in a population in roughly 5 generations.

You're going to argue that they don't breed, so it would die out. This may be true, but the freely breeding part of the population will keep supplying double-recessives simply by accident.

Check this yourself. Set up a 2X2 matrix, whose numbers add up to one. This represents the possible gene combinations as a fraction of the population(double-dominant, dominant-recessive [which occurs in two of the 4 positions], and double-recessive). Multiply as per rules learned in algebra.

I'm going to write a computer program to study this, and assume that homosexuality is caused by one double-recessive gene, and that only 5% of homosexuals will breed (due to societal pressure I suspect that number is higher - divorced men suddenly turning "gay"), but I have to pick an assumption to work from and this sounds reasonable to me. This will severely limit the double-recessive's ability to propagate. I've never applied this rule in matrices before, so I'm interested in seeing the results.

Does anyone have genetics experience to tell me if my methodology is valid?

I won't have time to write the program until tonight at the earliest, so stay tuned for the results. I'll supply program code to anyone who's interested so my work can be cross-checked.

Homosexuals - who cares?
I really don't get the arguments against homosexuality here. It very well may be a sin, though contrary to some posts, Jesus never even mentioned it. There are a lot of people here preoccupied with sex when Jesus never addressed anything close other than saying that marriage is between a man and a woman. If it is a sin, it is one that does not concern me because it is not an issue I have. I have a lot of other faults to work on though. There are a lot of sins and singling this supposed one out is counter-productive. If you think you can't be saved and gay, can you be saved and proud? How about saved and judgmental? Need I continue? I don't care if every other person in the world is gay. I'm not, so it's not something I need to work on. Sex is a complicated thing and it's not as easy as just saying gay people are more likely to commit sex crimes. Of course sex crimes vary greatly because of decency laws affecting how you do it. A lot of these supposed 'crimes' are victimless. Pedophiles are not likely to discriminate on their victims. They like children (boys and girls). I think this leads to the false conclusion that gays are more likely to be pedophiles. It's actually that pedophiles are more likely to vicitmize any child. Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia is over the top.

Quiz
If the powers to be at UNH were moral relativists, then the case you present could cause them difficulty. From your account it doesn't appear that it does.

But your quiz seems a rather simple one.

1)No, our moral repulsion does not serve as an adequate basis for moral codemnation. That road leads to moral relativism since what we find repulsive is so open to conditioning.

2) Obviously not applicable.

3) It could come to accept pedophilia. Society has often gotten moral issues wrong. If it accepted slavery why not pedophilia. Of course that is no defense of pedaphilia anymore than of slavery.

4) My answer to 3 didn't, but presumably you mean something like, If you beleive that the reason that pedaphilic acts are all immoral and homosexual acts are not all immoral is an issue of consent then...
The answer to that questions is that as with all issues of reasonable consent it is something that develops over time and will not be the same for all people. The law, because it is clumsy, will have to codify some standards, and it should do its best to do so based on the actual development of people. That is to say at what age can people in fact be expected to be able to make an informed decision on the consequences of sexual behavior. Under what circumstances are they more likely to defer the decison making to someone who may not have their best interest in mind? Under what circumstances are laws likely to be protecting the vulnerable, and under what circumstances are they likely to be a cover for enforcing other peoples morality on individuals who should make decisions for themselves.

5) Yes, the fact that the ability to consent develops over time does play a role in my view on parental consent, although not a decisive one. Another is consideration of under what circumstances teenagers would feel the need to avoid getting consent to have abortions.

6) It would be inappropriate for people at Planned Parenthood to receive jail time for a policy which protects vulnerable girls, and has little effect on preventing predation. Victims of rape and incest who want to pursue their assailants have plenty of avenues to do so. Those that do not are not likely to go to Planned Parenthood if they think it is a requirement to reveal the father. The result is that Planned Parenthood has a choice of providing help to those girls or not, but it does nto have the choice of preventing the conditions that create the problem. Unless the idea is to force those children to carry the babies of their rapists to term so that it becomes obvious they have been raped and then to have the police act to get a confession out of them as to who the father is.
Under the circumstances in which Planned Parenthood's policy develops, it seems that prison time for their members would be inappropriate. Not clear to me why the fact that a child molester could face jail time is relevant to that, unless it was just meant as a clever segue.

rlaTEXAS
Good question. When I meditate / pray on that, what I sense may be only for me, and not for others. What that says is exactly what it means. Jesus co-created the universe with the Father, and his teachings lead us back to the Father.

It didn't say that only those who believe in Him are with him in heaven.

I came to that after doing an NDE study 20 years ago, interviewing in depth 34 subjects. I recognized that no one is asked if he/she believes in Jesus. What was asked was "How did you treat your brothers and sisters?"

Meditating on that insight, I realized that Jesus is OK with all people, whether they have heard of him or not, or whether, as Muslims, for example they have had a real opportunity to study the NT and get their own conviction.

But they will all have to go through Him, whether in this life or next. As CS Lewis says in Great Divorce, the Catholics believe in purgatory, and the protestents say a tree lies where it falls. Neither are correct; God is greater than we know, and he has a plan for each person, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever. My opinion is all. I may turn out to be wrong! But I doubt it because the notion that only Christians go to heaven would defeat the justice and mercy of God. I am secretly more and more impressed by Pelagius.

A transgender issue---
Several have made comments ref. transgendered people, and there is a recent situation of a male science teacher at Batavia (NY) High School now dressing and living as a woman, prior to having surgery. He, now she, has taught at the school for 7 or 8 years. Those students who feel uncomfortable about the situation have not been permitted to withdraw from this teacher's class, which seems a blow to the rights of these students and their parents.

This highlights the problems which can occur when governments pass laws (usually at the instigation of LGBT activists) granting special status, such as "disability" in this case, to certain minority groups. These favored few then have "rights" which trump the rights or needs of the majority, which in this case is the studentbody, and the community in general.

Before the angry replies that I'm a bigot, etc.---I'm not saying that this teacher should not be allowed to teach. But use a little common sense, for crying out loud, and assign him (her now) to a different school, where the change in appearance wouldn't be such a distraction to the students, because they wouldn't have known her before as a man.

I mean, get REAL! How much LEARNING about the regular science curricula is going on in the classes taught by this teacher now? Teenagers are so easily distracted anyway, let alone when someone you knew as a man is now dressed as a woman, standing up in front of your class, trying to pretend that nothing is "strange," to say the least. I am a middle aged woman, who lived and worked in San Francisco for a few years in the 1970's, and yet I must admit that I would have difficulty not letting my mind wander onto various irrelevant and distracting questions in such a class, thus missing out on what I was supposed to learn.

Celtic-Dragon: Pedophilia vs. Homosexual
Celtic Dragon, I have one word for you.

NAMBLA:

North American Man Boy Love Association; where pedophilia meets homosexuality.

Celtic Dragon
I think that the left can sympathize with NAMBLA as they are an organization seeking validation. Just like gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals, transgender etc, these people have unique defining characteristics such as the need to have intimite relationships with those younger than them. Therefore society should not dictate how they should act and subsequently should be allowed to freely practice what they believe in as it is their constitutional right. Besides if their parterns are consenting and they are not hurting anyone else who cares right?

Adams Denied Promotion
Did everyone see on the FIRE website that Mike Adams has been denied a promotion to full professor at UNCW? Interesting!

Link to Adams News
Here's a link to the FIRE news release:

http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/7289.html

Mike, good luck to you on appeal. I'm sorry this has happened.

I don't always agree with you, but I support your right to make every argument, and I'm with you 100% about the need for big changes in academe.

Vocabulary confusion and age of consent
Zap, my sincere condolences on what happened to you. You bring up a very valid point. If a man who marries a woman and has four children then rapes a boy, he does not become homosexual. He becomes bisexual. A great many bi-sexuals prefer homosexual behavior, but use heterosexual behavior as a shield from community scorn.


You can argue about sin all you want, but as long as both parties are legally recognized as adults, able to reason for themselves, then what they do is not illegal, sinful as it may be. Therefore, from a legal standpoint, the point is moot. Is it good for society as a whole? Well, that's another matter, entirely.


Pedophilia, on the other hand, involves someone who is legally defines as being incapable of reasoned consent. There are those who believe that law should be changed, or the age limit lowered. My position is that if they lower the age limit for sexual consent, then they must also lower it for ALL contracts, voting, military service (and possible draft), insurance policies, etc. NAMBLA (sad that we actually know what that means - they're too well-known) would probably not agree to that. Do they really want the nine-year-old they raped to be able to legally buy a gun or order explosive components online? I doubt it.


What we need to do is ENFORCE the age of consent, equally across the board. If an 11-year-old girl actually managed to have sex with a 7-year-old boy (the mind boggles. He was capable? Not going there) then they are BOTH below the age of consent, and both victims. Victims of the vast publicization of sexuality in our culture that gave them instructions on the mechanics of the act before they were capable of understanding the consequences of it. Therapy is in order, but not jail-time for the girl, unless there is also equal jail time for the boy, because after all, he would be the one that penetrated, and I think I'll go throw up now.
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