Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Thursday, April 17, 2008
Michael Reagan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Saving the Children is Our Job
by Michael Reagan
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


In the sad case of the children caught up in the maelstrom of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) alleged child abuse matter, I tend to fall onto the church side in the separation of church and state.

The state is ill-equipped to deal with 400-plus youngsters it has torn from the bosoms of their mothers in the guise of protecting them from alleged abuses.

In considering this case it's important to keep in mind some rather unpleasant facts:

In America, there are over 500,000 children in foster care;

Approximately 300,000 kids are taken out of their homes every year because of neglect and abuse, and put in foster care;

Some 73 percent of the children put in foster care end up on the streets, or even worse, in jail;

Even though some 100,000 of these 500,000 youngsters are available for adoption, only a pitiful 1.2 percent will ever be adopted.

These statistics should concern every American. It's obvious that the government, which is great at starting wars and taxing the citizenry to pay for some of the worst hare-brained schemes imaginable, hasn't got the slightest idea of how to raise children.

They know how to take children from their homes but they don't know how to raise them once they've got them in their hands. Yet the idea that the government is better equipped than parents to raise children is widespread among the big-brother liberals who lust after inserting the power of the state into the very heart of the American family.

The reality is that when you take children from their mothers and put them in the hands of the state or its subordinate agents you ultimately do more damage to them than almost any abuse they might have suffered at home.

This is why I am calling on the Christian community and the churches to step up, take the children from the government, and assume their responsibility to keep these FLDS families together.

We need about 500 churches to take in 500 families. These children should be with their mothers, who are as much victims as their children are alleged to be. Splitting them up from their mother and their siblings is not going to be performing a service to these kids.

Just because we don't agree with their lifestyle does not necessarily mean that we can do a better job than the mothers can do in raising them.

We should keep in mind that the allegations against the FLDS remain speculative and unproven, yet the government rushed in and disrupted whole families on the basis of a single phone call from a teenager who, if she even exists, can't be found.

We've been through all of this kind of thing before. In the McMartin pre-school case during the 1980s, California government agencies acted on rumors that turned out to be absolutely false.

As Doug Linder wrote in 2003, the resulting McMartin Preschool Abuse Trial, which he called "the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history," created a seven-year, $15 million investigation that led to not a single conviction.

"More seriously, the McMartin case left in its wake hundreds of emotionally damaged children, as well as ruined careers for members of the McMartin staff," Linder recalled.

I'm not saying that the FLDS case is a replay of that notorious miscarriage of justice, but we surely must keep in mind the lessons it taught us about rushing to judgment and endangering the welfare of children before the real facts are known.

In the meantime, the Christian community needs to come forward and provide homes for the families and their children until all this can be sorted out.

Finally, as an afterthought we should be thankful that it is not Bill Clinton's Attorney General, Janet Reno, running this operation against the FLDS Waco-style. If she were, by now the moms and their children would probably all be charred bodies in the smoking ruins of their compound.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Michael Reagan, the eldest son of Ronald Reagan, is heard daily by over 5 million listeners via his nationally syndicated talk radio program, “The Michael Reagan Show.”
Okay, but...
"This is why I am calling on the Christian community and the churches to step up, take the children from the government, and assume their responsibility to keep these FLDS families together"

Yes, but some Christian community families need to back down from being legalistic and fear based, or the damage to the kids is almost worse than that of an overt abuser who doesn't invoke the name of God while snuffing out the kids spirits. I've worked with many kids who've been strangled with "You MUST attend youth group" "You MUST only wear certain clothes" "You must NEVER upset mother" "While in our house, you MUST attend church", etc...

The church should indeed step up, but also be prepared to tarry with some very hurt and angry kids WITHOUT rigid insistance on applying a template/formula that the child's acceptance hinges upon.

"The reality is that when you take children from their mothers and put them in the hands of the state or its subordinate agents you ultimately do more damage to them than almost any abuse they might have suffered at home"

Sometimes. I have met "mothers" that think burying their children alive (with a PVC pipe to supply air to the little coffin) is a viable form of "discipline". Being a mother has little to do with biological connection, yet there is much lacking on gov't discernment as well.

Case by case decisions need to be made when it comes to custodial issues.


I just know this about kids
They are going to grow up hating the State for this.
No reason at all to separate them from their mothers.
Investigate, sure, if there is just cause.
I do not believe they had just cause for this sort of intervention.
One would have to believe they had been offering up the kids to some fire eating god.

How about taking all the kids away from their mothers in every city if one child is abused?
Makes as much sense to me.
I judge the State has over stepped its lawful duties and abused its power.
Nothing new for today though.
Just be glad it was not another Waco.

Here's solution ...with family cohesion
Mike - Here's solution that can keep these families together yet stop this problem of coerced under age marriage rampant in this community.

The state should put the community on notice that any future violations will not be tolerated.

Gather DNA from everyone and all new born children, and vigorously prosecute and felonies proved by simple scientific evidence.

There would of course, have to be cooperation between Tx, Ut & Az.

Warren Jeffs Confession & Polygamy 2 Kid
Warren Jeffs Confession part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9fePt8-VndY
Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MQoknKRBqhw
Part 3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=u4t1EpxEsvg
Warren Jeffs Explaining POLYGAMY http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fbudqrmFSDs
Warren Jeffs #2 Cont. on Polygamy http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RkXA2JxGrJw
Warren Jeffs #3 Continued on Polygamy http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JWzXCdehMI4

WHO CARES WHAT THIS SECT
stands for, or doesn't stand for. I don't.

The ABUSER IS TAKEN AWAY, NOT THE CHILDREN!!

Some of these children have never been outside the compound before (whether that is good/bad is another issue, BUT) to take them away and THROW THEM INTO SOCIETY IS AN ACT OF TERRORISM.

I heard the government can't find this *Sarah* who made the TWO CALLS.

Seems strange to me that she is "Only 16" been inside the cult since she was "married" at 14 or 15 and has had one baby by someone that hasn't been INSIDE OF TEXAS in 30+ years!

But she knew the number of the hotline, presumably from INSIDE the compound... They aren't allowed outside contact... And, if I am not mistaken, the calls were placed using a cell phone, which I am sure are abundant inside...

Agree
Mike
I agree with you. In my long life, I've known two women who were married at 14, stayed married until the end, raised happy children without the intervention of the Orwellian state. The best thing the government could do is cut the budget of CPS (Child Persecution Services) by 90%. I thank God that I didn't grow up in a time when some amateur "Socialist Worker" could take me away from my family.

FLDS and underage girls
None of these girls in the FLDS consents to the marriage. They are raised from infancy being told they will be the wife of some old man when they reach about 13 or 14, or - if lucky - when they get to be 15 or 16. This is the FLDS system. Learn about it before defending it.

Since there isn't much of a way to find the perpetrators immediately, the safest thing to do is remove the children from the abusive situation. Liberals are always trying to take kids away from good homes just because good homes are homeschooling, yet find this situation to be atrocious. Bunch of hypocrites.

THE MORALITY OF GOVERNMENT?
SHADES OF WACO

.....The only difference I can see between Waco and the LDS Ranch in San Angelo is that the LDS members did not have guns ...

....We live in a strange and sometimes twisted society ...we expect underage girls to become sexually active ...we say we can't stop them so we teach them how to have safe sex in Public Schools ...when they become pregnant they can go to an abortion clinic and have an abortion without their parents knowledge or permission ...all of this is sanctioned and protected by law ...

.....However, if a Religious sect, living within their own community, allow their daughters to be married young to older men then all he!! breaks loose ....armed men rush in to to take children away from their mothers ...

.....And to do what? ...to put them in foster homes so that they can go to Public Schools and learn how to have safe sex in our moral society? ...I come down on the side of seperation of Church and State on this one ...

.....If the Ranch was run by Muslims who practiced Sharia Law ...or by Blacks who practiced voodoo ...or a GLBT group who indulged in Roman style orgies ...then they would have been protected by Political Correctness ...

.....America should clean up the moral decay within its own big city ghettos before it imposes its morality on a peaceful group of Christians living their lives according to their religious beliefs .....COLOSSUS

MORAL AUTHORITY?

.....When our Government abolishes abortion and makes its practioners felons ...when the Government bans the teaching of safe sex to underage girls in Public Schools ...when the Government can clean up the moral decay in our big city ghettos ...then maybe they will have the moral authority to tell others how they should live their lives ...

.....I don't agree with the LDS lifestyle ...I also don't agree with Sharia Law ...I also dont agree with the homosexual lifestyle ...but I really don't see where it is any of my business ...it is a strange concept I have called individual freedom .....COLOSSUS

I agree with Michael’s completely
I was an abused child and shuffled off to a foster home. Then put back into an abusive household. Left home when I was 9, found and returned, runaway permanently when I was 12. Homosexuals and pedophiles roam the streets, train stations, and bus stations preying on hungry runaways offering them money for sex.
There is so much hypocrisy going on with this case. How many men in our society, through legal divorce, have multiple wives and disregard their children completely. How many men have their children taken away by the state by nothing more then an ex’s angry complaint? How many men have multiple babies they turn their backs on. How many women think their kids do not need a father?
And let us not forget the argument between Plato and Aristotle about how in a pure democracy children should be taken away from their children at birth and given to others to be raise so the kids would have no family ties, making them free as can be.
Also let us be reminded that in the Muslim world one can have many wives and Mohammad himself married a 9 yr old. I do not know the answer, but the way the authorities in Texas did it was completely wrong and emphasizes that slave chains not only run through our pockets, slave chains now run through every personal aspect of our lives. What ouor movement, thoughts and actions should be.

baseballdoc
Individual freedom implies the ability to say "no". It is clear from the testimony of former members of this cult that girls have no say as to when they marry or to whom. As such, the state does have a limited role in protecting them from this clear abuse.

But I am glad to see that I am not the only one who is appalled to see hundreds of children taken from their parents on the basis of their religion.

I think that the best solution to this horrific case is to arrest those who broke the law, but allow parents to raise their children in whatever faith their conscience demands.

baseballdoc
Kudos on a great post. You hit a nail right on the head.

And I would venture to bet that the these so-called child protection people would read your points and not see a single one of the incongrueties you point out.


Hundreds of children...
taken form their homes and their mothers--based on a single phone call from a single 16yo girl...
who may not even exist.

I've seen enough Law and Order episodes to know that the authorities can and do devise and use phony ways to get around the law they are suposed to uphold when they think they have justifiable reasons to skirt that law.

I would suggest that the judge who issued the warrant based on this altogether flimsy
"probable cause" is an idiot of the first rank and totally hoodwinked by the perpetrators of another case of big brother police powers run amok.

I'm not saying that there is no built anywhere, but what ever happened to presumption? It seems that, as in most cases, there is really a presumption of guilt rather than innocence.

And I totally agree with an earlier poster, this scatter gun approach makes about as much sense as blowing up a house because someone "said" there were mice in it.

Time for the State to pay out.
36,000 children sexually abused in public schools last year. Not one of them was compensated ! Everyone blames the Church but no one looks in their own playground. Do we close schools or blame all teachers, no. But it is oh so easy to blame all priests. Bill Maher is a coked-out jackass.

W...T.....F???!!!!!
I wondered why it took so long for TH to say something about this incident!
And when it IS finally discussed, it's not about the sexual abuse of GIRLS, forced into 'spiritual marriages' without consent and without contact with the outside world...everyone's defense of this situation is now 'it's for the children'?!
How many times have TH writers misrepresented the motives and competence of gay parents?
Yet are tacitly approving of THIS situation in TX because the people are religious and on the surface are independent of federal, if not state laws?
THAT is hypocrisy. There are underage girls who are pregnant or already have children in this sect.
Warren Jeff's conviction and the past testimonies of young men and women who have escaped this life are specifically the reason why polygamy is unacceptable. It requires utter and complete control, and the compromise of individual freedom.
And it's just a coverup for the sex abuse of girls.
Once again, females in the equation of sex abuse goes almost without criticism.
But just the mention of homosexuality also brings out the inaccurate and unfair conflation of homosexuality and the abuse of boys in particular.
Lack of perspective here is seriously dangerous and no wonder it's so hard to get sex abusers properly punished. It's prejudice that keeps common sense from making any progress on that score.

law enforcers need
people who have the ability to critically think and have perspective. There is no excuse for the abuse of anyone. A religious excuse is even worse.
Michael Reagan (a molestation survivor) is defending this situation mostly because of his criticism of foster care.
Well, I've mentioned it often in TH myself how many children are abandoned by the man/woman idealized parent unit here...and it fell on deaf ears.
Michael Reagan is right about what happens to youngsters who are in foster care or abandoned to the streets by their parents. A phenom that is especially acute among GAY CHILDREN. A concept no one here will accept.
So the screed on foster care here, is still no excuse to allow such outragest that occur in these polygamist sects.
There are religious people in this country who feel no obligation to submit to civil laws here. Yet, take full advantage of shielding themselves in laws that are only Constitutionally guaranteed.
Not only is there sex abuse in these sects, but violations of child labor and government contract and welfare laws.
It figures that TH would have such dangerous imbalance in their reporting.
It serves nothing but the intense animus and prejudice against those innocent of actually ever abusing children (gay folks, gay parents), but this unconditional support of this sect simply because they HAVE children (and lots of them) is seriously illogical.

Dear Mr. Reagan
One thing is certain. Taking those children away from a cultist environment of fear, blasphemy and sexual abuse was the correct thing to do. My hat's off to the Texas CPS for acting as they did. I agree, though, that those children and their mothers (where those mothers were not active agents in their abuse) should be kept together.

I also find it incredible that, while homosexual couples can and do adopt children (the equivalent of the "alternative" lifestyle of the cultists) it's also difficult for good, traditional families to adopt. As in so many things, the moral (mis)perspective of lawmakers has warped the very concepts of family, childhood and legitimate religious faith. This is what needs to change.

To baseballdoc:
I agree with you completely. There is only one thing that I must correct you on: these people are FLDS, not LDS. The key word is "Fundamentalist". The FLDS are, as you can see, slightly peculiar. They tend to be seclusionistic, separating themselves from society other than their own. They also, unfortunatley, actively practice polygamy- which is illegal in the USA. In contrast, the LDS are actively involved in society and do not practice polygamy. It is only a single letter, but since I am LDS, I thought important to point out the difference. Thanks!

du
Are you defending your gay pursuit, is that your reason to dribble all over everybody? I’m sure there is a point you want to make besides bashing religion and everybody that posts at Townhall, but in your confused, narcissistic and neurotic style of blaming everybody for not listening to you, you spittle badly. Are you trying to say two same sex parents are good for children because of all the abuse by straight parents? Or homosexuality is better the religion? Strange perverted logic if that be the case, and certainly an argument with another theme. Why don’t you take a deep breath to gather your thoughts and go to a homosexual site where your opinions will not fall on deaf ears, I am sure Rosy would love to hear from you.

Who made the decision and who benefits?
As a former teacher, a mother of 5 and a grandmother of 20, I am appalled that 450+ children and mothers were forced to quickly leave their homes because of a phone call by one girl. Why were the girl's claims not investigated first before any action was taken? What was the rush? Authorities have known for generations about the polygamists activities in the southwest. Why, until now, have authorities basicly winked and looked the other way instead of pursuing constant investigation and prosecution of individual illegal acts. If authorities had tried to prosecuted every marriage of an underage girl for the past couple of generations, they wouldn't have had a such a big problem now. Why didn't the authorities just round up all the men and investigate them and leave the women and children at peace in their homes?

Can you imagine trying to calm your children and on short notice pack and carry all that you need to care for them, perhaps forgetting some medications, diapers, tampex, favorite toys, etc. The fathers weren't allowed to come and help. Imagine the abandonment issues etc. that the children may face. It looks to me like the whole operation was a form of child abuse set in motion by some power mad government official who has no compassion for or understanding of children.

Who made the decision to arrest the women and children who were either innocent of any crime or a victim of crime? What law gives anyone the power to arrest victims and/or potential victims? Who benefits from this miscarriage of justice?

Who made the decision and who benefits?
As a former teacher, a mother of 5 and a grandmother of 20, I am appalled that 450+ children and mothers were forced to quickly leave their homes because of a phone call by one girl. Why were the girl's claims not investigated first before any action was taken? What was the rush? Authorities have known for generations about the polygamists activities in the southwest. Why, until now, have authorities basicly winked and looked the other way instead of pursuing constant investigation and prosecution of individual illegal acts. If authorities had tried to prosecuted every marriage of an underage girl for the past couple of generations, they wouldn't have had a such a big problem now. Why didn't the authorities just round up all the men and investigate them and leave the women and children at peace in their homes?

Can you imagine trying to calm your children and on short notice pack and carry all that you need to care for them, perhaps forgetting some medications, diapers, tampex, favorite toys, etc. The fathers weren't allowed to come and help. Imagine the abandonment issues etc. that the children may face. It looks to me like the whole operation was a form of child abuse set in motion by some power mad government official who has no compassion for or understanding of children.

Who made the decision to arrest the women and children who were either innocent of any crime or a victim of crime? What law gives anyone the power to arrest victims and/or potential victims? Who benefits from this miscarriage of justice?

Indefensible
is about the only word I could use to describe Mr. Reagan's position.
"Torn from the bosoms of their mothers..."
They shouldn't be called mothers, they are accomplices to statutory rape. Same goes for their fathers.
Oh, thats alleged accomplices, according to Mr. Reagan. Who's he trying to kid?
The FLDS has a well known recent history involving this type of crime.
Mr.Reagan didn't elaborate on exactly why he feels the mothers are victims as much as the children. Based on the rest of the article, I must assume he means they are victims of the overreaching arm of the state and not the male leaders of the FLDS.
I'm sorry, but with such strong evidence that the mothers were willing participants in these alleged crimes, I fail to see how they are the victims of the state.
Statutory rape,whether committed under the guise of religion or anything else, is still statutory rape, and there certainly enough evidence to remand the children to the custody of the state.
After custody is settled, both the mothers and fathers of the child brides should be prosecuted as accomplices to statutory rape, and the selected bridegrooms of statutory rape.

The whole thing stinks
By now you have heard that the Texas Rangers have arrested a 33yr old woman in Colorado in connection with phoning in fake help line calls. She has done this before with other help lines and will quite possible turn out to be the "16 yr old victim" that started this.

Did anyone else notice that it was Baptist Church busses that were used in snatching the children from their parents? I can't help but wonder how much of this was indeed religious intolerence on the part of Bible thumpers of West Texas.

I am wondering how long the Amish, with their closed society and 6th grade schools will be tolerated? Perhaps it's just the poor 16 year old Amish girls are even worse off because they can't get their hands on phones to call for help.

LW
Mike Reagan...excellent commentary! I am amazed at the number of people who don't seem to grasp that the Constitutional rights of these parents have been grossly violated. Where is the EVIDENCE of child abuse?

Misssing the point
I think that allot of you are missing the point about the whole issue. THE CHILDREN!!!!! These kids are being deprived of a childhood! Maybe they are somewhat happy to enter into a marriage with a man who is 50 years old but do they know any different? They are told from birth that this is what they are suppose to do and then if they feel in their heart that it’s wrong they are sinning and should go give them selves to their husbands. I was also brought up in group homes and I was in and out of abusive homes all my life, but I knew that I didn’t have to except it, I was aware of the out side world so I sought out a different life style, how are these girls suppose to want any thing ells they don’t know what ells is out there.

W T F !!!!
Where are the constitutional rights???? You are so concerned for the parents???? What about the rights of a child?? As a parent would you want your 13 year old to marry a man who was 50?? As a parent I want my child to be happy, it’s my job to provide opportunity, these children are being robed of that!! If you can’t see that then there is something wrong with you! Or maybe you just don’t have children???? And the evidence of child abuse is in the child who is 15 pregnant by a 40 year old man!!!!!!!

Response to LW !!
W T F !!!!
Where are the constitutional rights???? You are so concerned for the parents???? What about the rights of a child?? As a parent would you want your 13 year old to marry a man who was 50?? As a parent I want my child to be happy, it’s my job to provide opportunity, these children are being robed of that!! If you can’t see that then there is something wrong with you! Or maybe you just don’t have children???? And the evidence of child abuse is in the child who is 15 pregnant by a 40 year old man!!!!!!!

Jehovah's Witnesses child abuse
The Jehovah's Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies protected pedophile men who sexually abused children for many years.
JW Frederick McLean is one of the most-wanted fugitives in the United States
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/

Jehovah's Witnesses pedophile cover up problem at a glance:
It's the WAY that the Watchtower's protocol for (non) handling of Criminal Pedophilia that is the root of this evil.

Recent Watchtower 'damage control' in house memos on 'correcting' past cover ups and years of past stone walling/foot dragging does not undo decades of child abuse damage.

ERIN ALLISON

.....Thanxs for setting me straight on FLDS .....COLOSSUS

POSTSCRIPT: Not only do muslims practice polygamy and "arranged" marriages to young girls but how old do you think those 70 virgins are that are promised to matyers? ....I'll bet they are all nubile nymphet like Lolitas .....COLOSSUS

LDS children in Texas
Michael Reagan is right on in his view of this terrible situation. I don't agree at all with the Mormon philosophy but Texas did a terrible thing to these kids. Give them back to their mothers.
C. Stewart
Seattle

Don't side with nutters
I certainly think it will be good for Christian and families of traditional faiths to step forward and foster or adopt these children, but we need to be clear. These FLDS people are nuts and dangerous to the children. Just do the math. There's a guarentee of abuse. If the young girls are married off to the few elder men in the community, you've got a surplus of young men without young women to marry. They're going to look to the pre-teen girls. Even if the elder men kick the young men or male teens out of the community to stave off compitition, that means young men/teens who don't know about the outside world. Abuse of girls or lost boys in the outside world, or both.
Side with the government on this one. Don't run with the nuts.

Anything our leaders do
to help children is just lip service to the media. Without any forethought, they are leading today's children blindly into a future that has 450 million Americans by 2050, all vying for water, food and energy.

Why the reckless abandon, to apease business, perpetuate the growth myth and for low income voters (the dems are doing it to us once again.)

Dukas
Hey Dukas, don't assume or put words in I didn't say.
I didn't bash religion. I bashed the obvious hypocrisy of when and where the state comports in self when determining abuse or support for children.
In this sect, GIRLS are at risk of sexual abuse and their parents let it happen under the guise of piety.
That is a fact.
And most states compromise gay parents by not allowing THEM full parental protection and opportunity for THEIR children by marriage.
Besides, what kind of truly effective attentiveness can ONE man give to five or more wives and 25 to 30 children?
Ever grow up in a house full of many children and two parents? Sibling and spousal rivalry must be COLOSSAL in these polygamist sects.
These are people who take fecundity and fundamental control of females to outrageous proportions.
I know gay parents have had their children taken away arbitrarily and the laws regarding parenting and marriage when it comes to gay people haven't been seen since slavery and blacks were the only ones subject to such laws.
I only criticize religions that so obviously abuse females and gay people, which is most of them. Doesn't mean they are right to do so.



out of the 400 odd
Out of the 416 children who are in this sect, at least 40 to 60 of them are gay, making them ripe for emotional and mental abuse in this fundamentalist environment. And the girls and what their fate is is a foregone conclusion.
My concern, as always is for the girls, the gay kids...and the boys likely to be abandoned if they become romantic rivals for the girls the elders of this church want.

Being pious is no excuse for any of this. No wonder they close off these communities and don't allow their members free will and access to influences that would remind them of the freedom they don't have.

And this is what it's really about. Free will, freedom and individuality.
None of which seems evident here.

proportions
I'm trying to keep close watch on this case and it might be that a whistleblower not in the sect made the phone call.
But with young girls being pregnant, the state had an obligation to investigate THAT, no matter who made the call. It's likely a relative of someone in the sect did. But it doesn't matter, it's a good thing the lid was blown.
My point is, there are assumptions made of gay people that are wrong, very wrong...at the expense of THEIR parental rights and it's unfair that this happen and it damages their children and family cohesion.
Outsiders interfere with gay people all the time, even those gay parents who were investigated and qualified BY a state to adopt.
The welfare of children of course is paramount, but I want to see some perspective on that when it comes to whose children are more worthy of parental support and freedom.

the question is
Why ARE so many children overwhelming and are underserved in foster care?
That's a serious consideration and it's rarely addressed. Adoptive homes it appears, are tough to come by.
Why are so many children born, only to have this happen to them?

Why don't people know when they don't or shouldn't be parents?
Pressure from society to procreate AGAINST their better instincts not to?

I know first hand there is a lot of prejudice against those who choose not to have children and those that don't.
And then we look at the foster care system and wonder why there are so many children who are unwanted or can't be raised by their own parents?

du
You hog the keyboard and repeat your same crap over and over, a trick of shallow propaganda. You do not want to hear anything else but your own justifications. It makes no sense to tell you I disagree with you, it seems to be a waste of time because you open your ears to no one but dance within your own inner sanctum. Gay marriage is a STUPID idea.

Pay attention
This was not a one time thing. The investigation has been ongoing for four years. You are right Red. The young boys are thrown out on their own to give the Old Bulls a clear field for the young girls. Where are the loving mothers then. They are part and parcel of the problem. A guy who graduated from high school with my sister got tangled up with them and when he left and started a hardware store in an other state he was hunted down and murdered. Much like what we hear of the muslims of today, Warren Jeffs father didn't allow anyone to leave.Sounds like Scientologists doesn't it? Can you say cult? Just being a mother does not mean she is a good one.

sure dukas
Personal attacks make a poor substitute for something substantive of your own to say on the subject of this sect.
What, it's only pedophilia if boys are attacked by men?
That seems to be the prevailing opinion and how sad it is for someone like me in law enforcement to see a near de facto defense of this sect. At least where the perception of government overreach is concerned. What is crap is the double standard in this regard about parental authority.
I'm not the subject here dukas, the allegations of abuse by yet another polygamist sect is. If you can't stay on point with what has been discussed in TH, or even understand the glaring double standards regarding the care of children in outsider groups, then what's YOUR point of being here?
Don't like my opinion? Tough.
At least my profession does charge me with the care of children most of the time. I know what goes on factually and statistically when it comes to who abuses children and how the government can't have bias with regard to abusing their parents.
Criminal databases interfaced all over the world kinda facilitates that.


thanks eor
Indeed, ongoing investigations in the Four Corners area not only shows a serious problem of abuse in these sects, but that local law enforcment looks the other way or facilitates the activity continuing.

The "Lost Boys" phenom illustrates that polygamy requires that for ONE male with many wives, that leaves another man with NO option for a wife.
Having the abuses within polygamist sects allows rational and clear justification why polygamy as a legal standard for marriage in any state is impossible.
Even now, untangling the DNA connection to so many wives and children not only complicates that process, but that also of legal PRIMACY with the husband.

If there were a medical emergency with one of the wives, or the husband they share, who can the state say is the legal guardian or agent of the wife or husband? This is obviously a chaotic situation for the state AND this polygamist sect. After all, they DO command state benefits by having federal and state contracts, and if they are receiving welfare. So they aren't THAT isolated from state benefit and your tax dollars.

The one spouse accord, even among gay people OR the transgendered or intersexed doesn't challenge the current law, and provides substantial legal accountability for those gay people who ARE parents.

So what's MORE stupid, is keeping gay parents (or significant others) FROM their duty that marriage would provide. Otherwise the state creates chaos (and risk of making gay people it's wards) where there wouldn't be.
To be consistent, Michael Reagan,even inadvertantly, is defending what gay parents and their loved ones should have and what they are rightly demanding.

Government should remove children #1

Today I just happened to find an article I had set aside months ago to read: “Escape from Polygamy,” Glamour Magazine, By Kathy Jo Nicholson with Jan Brown, July 2007
It’s on the Web as well: http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_Glamour_escape_from_poly gamy.html

Kathy Jo came from this same FLDS sect in another state. It doesn’t matter now that the woman was deranged who made the call. The FLDS has been exposed—that’s the important thing.

First, please take a look at these quotes from the article. They tell me these kids—all these kids in the FLDS cult—are under extreme emotional abuse. And now I believe the government was right to remove them from their homes and place them in foster homes. It sounds like many of the foster homes would be with folks from local Baptist churches who would care lovingly for them. Remember that non-acquiescence to polygamy means eternal damnation to them, and girls can only get into heaven through their husbands. That right there is extreme emotional abuse.

Article quotes:

“I started sewing my wedding dress when I was 14 years old. Most girls would never think of marriage at such a young age, but some of my peers were already wives and mothers.”

“If a woman serves her husband faithfully, he may invite her to join him in the celestial kingdom of heaven. But should a woman disobey the Prophet and refuse a life of polygamy, she will be damned to eternal hell.”

“It was painful for my mom to give way to a younger wife. She rarely laughed after that.”

“He banned the dances and sporting events that had brought the community together.”

“The rules Warren (Jeffs) laid down for us were always changing. Wearing certain colors was evil one week but perfectly OK the next.”


“During a moment alone with my mom right before the wedding, she sat me down and told me she was happy I was living a normal life.

Government should remove children #2

Further article quotes from:
“Escape from Polygamy,” Glamour Magazine, By Kathy Jo Nicholson with Jan Brown, July 2007
It’s on the Web as well: http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_Glamour_escape_from_poly gamy.html


“To say yes to Matt's proposal would mean a life free from polygamy — happiness on earth but eternal damnation in hell.”

“I'd never been allowed to make my own decisions growing up, and now I needed Matt — who was equally adrift — to validate every one of my choices, from what to wear to whether I should polish my nails to when would be a good time to do a load of wash.”

“Drinking and substance abuse would dominate my life for years to come.”

“My brother made an amazing transition into public school life (after leaving the FLDS sect). By age 14, he had finished only fourth grade, but he dug into his studies and completed eighth grade with a straight-A average.”

hi dsslm
I read that Glamour article. But years ago two books came out written by women who left a similar sect. And there was an extensive article in Newsweek, I think about the Lost Boys.

The point is, MEN are using piety as an excuse for sexual control of females. And this is only accomplished by COMPLETE and utter isolation. Look at the pictures of these women. There is very little individuality among them. But for the colors they are wearing, is this any different from the way females are treated in fundamentalist Islam?

Women and gay people, are the most oppressed and violated human beings paticularly by religious communities whose attitude and structures around gender are themselves unnatural and in violation of basic human equality.

That most discussions on the
sexual abuse, dramatically leaves out females, is a symptom of why it goes on and the men involved do so with impunity.
None of THEIR faces have been shown in the press. Wonder why.

Is this man out of his mind?
"We need about 500 churches to take in 500 families. These children should be with their mothers, who are as much victims as their children are alleged to be. Splitting them up from their mother and their siblings is not going to be performing a service to these kids.
Just because we don't agree with their lifestyle does not necessarily mean that we can do a better job than the mothers can do in raising them."


By virtue of allowing these men access to their daughters' bodies, these women have proven themselves to be unfit to be anyone's mother. They should be in jail for neglect.

Really?
Jack writes: "Mike I agree with you. In my long life, I've known two women who were married at 14, stayed married until the end, raised happy children without the intervention of the Orwellian state. The best thing the government could do is cut the budget of CPS (Child Persecution Services) by 90%. I thank God that I didn't grow up in a time when some amateur "Socialist Worker" could take me away from my family."

Well, hopefully your family was not allowing you to be raped by middle-aged men.

Do you really advocate that it's a good thing for 14 year old girls to be married? I really am beginning to see how the Christian freaks are just like the Muslim freaks in regards to females. So, why do you all hate each other so much?

du
There was 36,000 children molested in Public Schools last year, not one child compensated and on many occasions tenured teachers just passed on to other districts. Plan Parenthood will give abortions to a 12yr old take the money and never report the rape to the authorities. Pre teenage children are taught promiscuity in schools and supplied free condoms and abstinence is frowned upon. Mental abuse is so common in public schools why even talk about. And the practice of killing our first born, through selective abortion numbers in the 10's of millions, and yet you as a secularist constantly attack the church for their pedophilias but say nothing about the injustice at public schools, is why I have no problem calling you a phoney and a fraud. I suspect you would attack the church for any reason you could in defence of your own sexual preferences.

FDL children
You are right the christian churches need to come forward with shelter for these families.
The Pediphiles need to be held accountable.

dukas, dukas, dukas...
No need to get hysterical, I'm WELL aware of the failures of this country to protect it's millions of children. I'm well aware that these children's own parents can't be counted on to do right.
But see, such is the unchallenged condition of being heterosexual as if it's a merit based condition and not so much merely a matter of being COMMON.
I don't have children, but support and protect them in a different way.
I know that gay people don't contribute to the numbers of abandoned, and neglected children but are vilified for having sterile sex. Yeah, THAT makes a lot of sense all things considered.
And creating a society that is prejudiced against the sterile, or at worst, asserts the fantasy that procreation is THE ultimate gift FOR God is very much why we're having this conversation.
This assertion then reinforces those emotionally or physically or criminally unable to have children, to do so anyway.
And children suffer.
I see it every day in my life and profession.

cont.
Get your facts straight, dukas. I haven't attacked the church. I have pointed out hypocrisy. And the legacy of misogyny and it's extension, homophobia, among religious communities.

Women have little representation in the power positions of ANY given religion in the world, despite being more than 50% of the world's population.
I have every reason not to trust such conditions, or take the word of the men who have created the world's most powerful religions at the EXPENSE of those who are female, gay or have a different belief.
The unrelenting population growth in LA has made our public schools ineffective or outright failures.
I can agree on where children have been failed. I don't on who is to blame and I won't indulge your assumptions nor anyone else's. I have to live with it more than you do, because I'm a woman.
I don't think it's important. But I'm not gay. I KNOW that gay people don't contribute to the problems people say they do, and indeed could be exceptional allies given the opportunity.
Wasting time pointing fingers at a non existent enemy is the conceit of people who simply have the higher numbers, but not moral fortitude, to get their way in which to make a BETTER way for everyone.

dukas
You're serving up personal attacks, but evidently can't say you've read or understand anything about these polygamist sects.
You're not staying on that topic, NOR are you bringing up any viable SOLUTIONS to an serious problem of abuse of females within a religious sect.

I at least, as a person involved in law enforcement can say I attend to the safety and care of MY community.
Can YOU?
I have ALWAYS been trying to engage these threads on the gender bias around sexual abuse.
And very few people care. It seems it's only pedophilia if people perceive boys are being abused by men.
So now you attack me for trying to bring some perspective into the discussion on sexual abuse?
So, smart guy...where's YOUR great idea?
Or are you just going to complain about ME and not the issue at hand?

You're SUCH a baby. And no wonder those of us in law enforcement get no where.
We keep getting confronted by people who don't want to connect to make a real difference but hang on to their ignorant and worthless prejudices.

children need to be with their mothers
When the DNA determines which child belongs to which mother that family group should be together. They would need a non FLDS or LDS family to help them adjust. The children need to be in school and gradually exposed to non FLDS environment.

Remember these mothers are as brain washed as those currently under 18 years of age.

Every state has set a minimum age for consensual marriage. The law of the United States is marriage between one man and woman.
The FLDS, run by men, know full well the law of the U.S. My understanding is everyone at this compound are U.S. born citizens.

The children do not have an adequate education for any job. The young boys forced out can not support themselves.

As for CPS HA-- I know of a young girl who was raped by the family's teen age boy. He has yet to go to trial and it has been 5 years. That is my opinion of CPS.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.