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Friday, April 11, 2008
Michael Reagan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Congressional Democrats: The Other Insurgents
by Michael Reagan
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There must have been times when Gen. David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker thought they were back in embattled Sadr City when they faced Democrats on Capitol Hill this week -- no Iraqi insurgents or al Sadr militiamen could have been more hostile.

No wonder. The goals of the Democrats and both al Qaeda and al Sadr insurgents are the same: the defeat of the United States in the war in Iraq.

From the opening statement by Sen. Carl Levin -- a vitriolic tirade against the war -- to the less vehement but equally unfriendly statements by the Clinton woman and her rival for their party's presidential nomination, Sen. Barack Obama, the Democrats made no secret of their burning desire to see the United States humiliated by a defeat in Iraq.

Clinton derided the obvious fact that a hasty withdrawal from Iraq would be dangerously irresponsible, and refused to admit that the surge is working: "I think it could be fair to say that it might well be irresponsible to continue the policy that has not produced the results that have been promised time and time again at such tremendous cost," she told Petraeus, blithely ignoring the continuing successes of his strategy.

Let's just get out and to hell with the consequences was the gist of what she said.

Obama defined success in Iraq as when "there's still corruption, but the country is struggling along, but it's not a threat to its neighbors and it's not an al-Qaeda base," while failing to recognize that the near-immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces would create a nightmare situation in the entire region.

As Jacob Laksin wrote in FrontPageMagazine.com on April 10 (Petraeus vs. The Party of Defeat): "In the end, neither Democratic candidate gave any indication that they understand the stakes in Iraq. Nor was there any evidence that they -- or anyone else in their party -- would be willing to make the necessary if unpopular decisions needed for success."

Laksin noted that Independent Sen. Joe Lieberman had described the Democrats' attitude this week as "hear no progress in Iraq, see no progress in Iraq, and most of all, speak of no progress in Iraq."

He could have added that his former party had reversed Gen. Douglas McArthur's declaration that there is no substitute for victory to read, "There is no substitute for your country's defeat when you want to win elections."

Although targeted from the outset, both Petraeus and Crocker managed manfully to withstand the often nasty implications inherent in the Democrats' questioning. Petraeus even treated Mrs. Clinton as if she were a lady, despite the fact that the last time he came to the Hill to talk about the situation in Iraq she all but called him a liar before his appearance.

Frankly, I don't know how he sat there being so respectful of these people, when they are doing everything in their power to undermine what he's doing. They are also giving hope, not to our troops, but to the enemy which is trying to kill them.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller helped to set the tone for his Democratic colleagues before the hearings when he accused his colleague, war hero Sen. John McCain, of what amounts to a war crime saying, "McCain was a fighter pilot who dropped laser-guided missiles from 35,000 feet. He was long gone when they hit. What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground? He doesn't know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues."

Sen. Rockefeller was forced to apologize to McCain. He didn't explain how he, as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, did not know that when John McCain was flying missions over North Vietnam there were no such things as laser guided missiles.

If we had listened to the defeatist Democrats there wouldn't be 175,000 trained Iraqi soldiers, 379,000 trained Iraqi police, 90,000 trained Sons of Iraq, and you wouldn't have Maliki, a Shia leader, sending his military into Basra to fight Shia militias.

Instead, al Sadr would be running Iraq with the help of Iran, and bin Laden would be using Iraq as a training base for al Qaeda.

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About The Author
Michael Reagan, the eldest son of Ronald Reagan, is heard daily by over 5 million listeners via his nationally syndicated talk radio program, “The Michael Reagan Show.”
Ridiculous neocon rubbish
It's just incredible how off-track the Republican Party is.

No self-respecting thoughtful Conservative can be a member of this party any longer.

Conservatives intent on voting in November for a candidate who shares their views, both in foreign affairs and domestic matters, might as well plan on spending Election Day at home. The Republican Party of Bush, Cheney, and McCain no longer accommodates such a candidate.

There are NO "Iraqi" forces loyal to the central government. They are loyal to their own militias. Training does no good under such circumstances.

If the prime minister gives an order, the people in the "Iraqi" armed forces will follow the order if they think it helps the militia they are loyal to, and will not follow the order if it does not.

Watching Michael Reagan prostitute himself by spewing garbage emanating from the American Enterprise institute is pitiful.

It is real Conservatives like William F. Buckley Jr. and Michael Reagan's father who built the Republican Party, not the neocons who Michael Reagan has decided to emulate.

A Tragedy
It has been interesting watching the Demonrats on Iraq from just before the vote to go into Iraq until now. When the public supported it by wide margins and the Republican congress forced the vote to just before the election they were all for it. As soon as the election was over they resorted to their normal anti-American anti-war rhetoric. With the aid of the media they have succeeded in turning the public opinion around. Lieberman’s statement about hear no progress and speak no progress could just as easily be said about the media as well as the Demonrats.

And then there is the “hearings”. I can not remember a case in my lifetime where a hearing is really a hearing. These things have gotten so bad that they are no longer a joke. They fall in the category of a tragedy. If anything, they have gotten worse since CSPAN started operating. What needs to happen is the cameras removed from Congress, the reporters expelled, and the power to subpoena witnesses removed. That authority is one Congress took for itself anyway as there is absolutely no basis for it in the Constitution. Congress is NOT a member of the judicial branch.

Having watched the hearings
I get the distinct impression that for some nothing short of golden tributes roses at Petraeus' feet would have been sufficiently respectful. Please note the thrust of the column, to the author it is the mere fact of their disagreement that is the source of disrespect. It is not Conress' job to make the general feel warm and fuzzy, it is to get answers to the questions many, many Americans are asking.

While I think Petreaus did a good job of avoiding attempts to be overly specific or optimistic there is one aspect that I found very troubling.

Petraeus has been sounding the alarm bells about the presence of Quds Force in Iraq, often citing last year's detainment of two of their officers in Iraq. He conveniently leaves out the fact that they were the invited house guest of Abdul Al-Hakim, the leader of the ruling SCII party.

Beyond disingenousness, I see this lying by omission.

Right Smithington
The neocons just don't get it. That's why they are out of step with 76% of Americans on this issue. It strikes me as irresponsible to label charges like "insurgents" at those that would disagree with this administrations failed policies.

To Smithington
"There are NO "Iraqi" forces loyal to the central government."

When were you there?

If you weren't, then like so many of your sort you are *pretending* to know what you cannot. Inventing your own facts is not a practical approach to practical problems.

To bryce
"He conveniently leaves out the fact that they were the invited house guest of Abdul Al-Hakim, the leader of the ruling SCII party."

And yet you knew of it. Must Gen. Petraeus re-brief every known fact?
From Gen. Petraeus' perspective, the fact of the Quds Force presence is the important bit -- the political aspect of their being invited to Abdul Al-Hakim's house is a matter that calls for a political approach.

Granted that politics are very much a piece of what high-level officers do, would you really want theater commanders making policy of that magnitude?

JD's Handsome son
It is unthinkable to hang bloody corpses from lampposts. Way too quick and easy. Pull their bar licenses, their Social Security proof pensions, and make them work for a living in the world they made while insulating themselves from it. After 48 hours in the pillory, so disgusted constituents could easily express themselves.

This statement say it all:
“The goals of the Democrats and both al Qaeda and al Sadr insurgents are the same: the defeat of the United States in the war in Iraq.”

Anti-win proponents get angry when someone points out this fact. Why? Because it’s true! That is also why you won’t see any dissenting comments denying this. It is undeniable.

I posted this yesterday to a similar article and its applicable here:

Ask this simple question to any Democrat: Do you want to win the war? And more than likely, you’ll receive a convoluted response in attempts to circumvent the question. Many have staked their political careers in defeat and are now doing the Texas two-step trying to survive. And sadly, they’re eight year campaign to demonize President Bush has succeeded, which keeps their flock firmly in tow.

Unfortunately, here is another undeniable fact. Defeat in Iraq = Democratic victory. The converse is equally true. And they have put themselves in this position with their own hateful rhetoric. Again proving the validity of the old axiom, “what goes around comes around.”

Inthenow...
"Ask this simple question to any Democrat: Do you want to win the war? And more than likely, you’ll receive a convoluted response in attempts to circumvent the question."

That goes without saying. Ask any liberal any tough question and you'll get a convoluted dodge rather than an answer.

I would love to see
a guy like General Petraeus look these dems in the eye and tell them "the law requires me up-date you clowns, but it doesn't require me to suffer your childish abuse" and then walk out and take his well earned pension..
He won't because he has class, something these despicible fools with D's after their name don't have and never will.

He respects his oath, where guys like obama won't even salute the flag of the country he wants to lead.

Liberals want to destroy this country and many in the congress do as well...they can't be that stupid, they just think we are.

Michael
"No wonder. The goals of the Democrats and both al Qaeda and al Sadr insurgents are the same: the defeat of the United States in the war in Iraq. "

Besides being a lie statements like that give aid and comfort to the enemy but I know, what do you care as you and your ilk politise the issue and divid the country for profit. Come on November

Hal
Face it, your party went way left a long long time ago. Michael is correct. The Democrats do not want to see victory. They believe credit would go to the Republican Party instead of looking at it as a victory for the entire world. The whole party has been blinded by its hatred for Bush. Whenever you do what is right there will be people that hate you.

Mr. Michael Reagan
Thank you for this column. Petraeus was the right man at the right time. I love to admire the self-control of true gentlemen trained in the military. It would be beneath him not to treat any woman like a lady.
I do believe Senator Lieberman is correct. I do not think any Democrat has the freedom to speak openly about the War on Terror in Iraq at this point except of course to criticize it.

Win the war question
When I ask someone if they want us to win the war and they evade the question I know what they mean. I was trained in interrogation in an Israeli course and they had a rule, "If the subject does not answer the question then the subject has answered the question." It is sad that many democrats are anti-american. Many that are old enough wanted us to lose in Viet Nam and they have wanted the USA to be unsuccessful in every conflict since then. They consider their own country to be evil. James Clyburn (dem) stated that military success in Iraq is not good news for the democrat party. Abraham Lincoln opposed the war we had with Mexico but stated specifically that his opposition is not justification not to provide supplies or other support to the men fighting in the field. Many democrats are not Americans they are internationalists.

lol
INTHENOW:"ask this simple question to any Democrat: Do you want to win the war? And more than likely, you’ll receive a convoluted response in attempts to circumvent the question."

and yet Hal answers it with exactly what you said...priceless!

Hal, how about you give us some reasons that statement is a lie?

Joycey
"..The Democrats do not want to see victory. They believe credit would go to the Republican Party instead of looking at it as a victory for the entire world. "

See here is exactly where you are wrong. Since 2006 the Ds are the ones who gain if we "won" BUT what is win? A small group of insurgents have tied us down in the desert and chewed up our men, equipment and money while the very folks who attacked us thrive with near immunity thousands of miles away. After 5 years of this gross mismanagement can anything be a win? The answer is certainly no for the Bush Regime but a new government might be able to salvage something. To date, the only real "winner" in Bush's Iraq war is Iran.

"The whole party has been blinded by its hatred for Bush. Whenever you do what is right there will be people that hate you. "

Bush is irrelevant and seen that way this is all about next year

Rockefeller
Proof money can't buy brains.

sawdust
"How can one possibly listen to what the left has said for the last 5 years and not come to the conclusion that they want us to lose this war? "

Oh stop it! It isn't about the far laft they are as relevant as the far right folks here which means they are not. The moderates will decide how Bush's war in Iraq ends no one else.




JD'S HS & Seawolf
JD, very well said. A good read as always. You cut through the bullsh*t, right down to the bone.

Seawolf, I've always felt like you about truly great people of apparently good character, having to appear before that band of thieves known as our Congress. I just wish that someday, a witness will put these nitwits in place. If Senator Kennedy or Clinton personally attacked me for their personal gain or moralized to me, I would say, "Listen, Senator Clinton/Kennedy. I am willing to answer questions but I don't have to take being insulted by the likes of you. Senator Kennedy, need we list your sad history of cheating and killing. Senator Clinton, are you really lecturing me with your history lies and deceit? Senators, I will answeer questions, but I will not be lectured by the likes of you. I'll take questions happily from the likes of Lieberman, Feingold, maybe a couple of others. But you, Senator Clinton/Kennedy, you need to sit down and shut the f*ck up. Who's next?"

Brujo Blanco
"...I was trained in interrogation in an Israeli course and they had a rule, "If the subject does not answer the question then the subject has answered the question."

Well that gives us some hint at least why the Israeli military and government failed when they invaded Lebanon.

"It is sad that many democrats are anti-american. "

See why do you keep spewing this nonsense? Doesn't it aid the enemy?

"Many that are old enough wanted us to lose in Viet Nam and they have wanted the USA to be unsuccessful in every conflict since then. "

Lie after lie after lie

"....Abraham Lincoln opposed the war we had with Mexico but stated specifically that his opposition is not justification not to provide supplies or other support to the men fighting in the field. "

Yet it is the Bush Regime itself that has deprived the military of "supplies or other support to the men fighting in the field." but of course your silence is deafing on that issue isn't it?

guys
its tough debating with Hal,

He simply makes up facts when the information out there doesn't fit what he needs.

Just look at his last post...Bush deprived our military? Im sorry, but it was congress who wouldn't pass a bill for their funding. Anyone who actually believes our troops don't have supplies is plain stupid...simple as that.

He insulted israel, and denounced things with his opinions...typical

The Socialist
democrats have been after President Bush since his 1st day in office. They stoop to whatever level is needed, no matter how or the costs in American lives for their damn political reasons.

They, along with people like moron HAl are responsible for many of the deaths that have occured in this war.
And yes, i'm damned mad!!

Tallil2long Petraeus' lying by omission
You say that Petraeus can't share every little detail with us. Sorry, but for Petraeus to intentionally, and repeatedly invoke the Quds Force as a reason for our continued support of the government whose leader is personally inviting the Quds Force into Iraq as his houseguest is hardly an editorial choice.

My point here is that it is a fool's errand to blithely for the US to continuing supporting the Maliki coalition without pausing at this critical juncture to ask ourselves exactly what is the nature of the Iraqi government we are supporting.

We if really want to minimalize the Iranian influence in Iraq we need to start, publicly, with the Iraqi officials that are inviting them to Baghdad for sleepovers.

Bryce
Then why didn't your savior Obama ask about it? Clearly you already know meaning they should too right?

Please excuse
The atrocious typos above. Just rereading it gave me eye strain!

Jimmy Carter
Can anyone tell me why Jimmy Carter should be allowed to go to Syria next week to meet with the leaders of Hamas? Considering the office he held, hasn't he done enough damage? Or is he just following up on and expanding Pelosi's visit to Syria?

CKHustler
"..Just look at his last post...Bush deprived our military? Im sorry, but it was congress who wouldn't pass a bill for their funding."

Enhanced armored vehicles for the marines were held back because the Bush Regime feared they would hurt funding for other vehicles. Congress forced them into the continuing resolution the Rs called them pork the president called them unneeded expense. Just one example. There are lots more it is not I "making up facts"

"He insulted israel, and denounced things with his opinions...typical "

Insulted Israel? Huh? The were not defeated in Lebanon???

Putting
Jay Rockefellar and Intelligence in the same sentence is an oxymoron because that moron hasn't
a half a brain cell in his head. He's only there because one of his gr gr grandparents was a robber baron, and obviously Jay proves that inbreeding just isn't conducive to intellect.
One could say, that intellect isn't the strong suit of any of these wannabe kinglets in the DemonRat party. In another time, in another era,
these people would be held accountable for sedition and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
But having successfully followed Saul Alinsky's
plan of attack, by infiltrating all our institutions they have dumbed down a generation of citizens. Give enough of them bread and circuses and the conquest of the Republic is complete.

pandm
"The Socialist
democrats have been after President Bush since his 1st day in office. They stoop to whatever level is needed, no matter how or the costs in American lives for their damn political reasons."

Another lie they and the entire world stood 110% behind Bush after 911 and through Afghanistan. Everyone else is wrong Bush is right??? Give me a break but do not accuse the Ds of acting like the Rs did against Clinton.

"They, along with people like moron HAl are responsible for many of the deaths that have occured in this war.
And yes, i'm damned mad!! "

you may be mad but you are also dead wrong

Let us not
forget that a majority of idjits in these Dem senators districs put them there. We should all be very worried.

I am almost to the point of saying let's bring the troops home and just let the slaughter in Iraq begin.
Sure, the jihad types will come to our streets soon enough, but their preferred target areas seem to leberal bastions that elect the likes of Clinton, Rockefeller, Obamma and the like. Wondering if there's really a major downside there.

Alright Donahue, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.......
Prove your "Yet it is the Bush Regime itself that has deprived the military of "supplies or other support to the men fighting in the field."" -- statement.
==================================================
Prove that allegation or apologize. NO OTHER OPTIONS bonehead --NONE!!!

TBC `:>{(

oops,
Liberal, not leberal. I can do 90 typos a minute.

BTW Donahue, it is NOT the Bush regime..
..it is President Bush's ADMINISTRATION.

TBC ~:>{(

YES!
Once again the thread has mysteriously morphed away from the theme. How does that happen?

Here’s the question again to everyone...do you want the US to win the war?

No qualifiers or predications...just a simple yes or no. You can create more comments justifying your answer later. But first, please take the time to make a single post and show us where you stand. I’ll be the first…

“YES” I want us to win!

Yeah
I do want the US to win, and do so decisively. Thing is, I no longer believe our own people will allow this to happen.
Check out Dianne West's column for another disgusting example of liberal war management.

No longer a Republican Smithington...
you are a moron. When have you been to Iraq? If you haven't gone there shut the f--k up!!! You have no idea what you are writing about.

Seawolf, Cookie
I was disgusted with the way Gen. Petraeus was treated in the Congressional hearings. I said I was amazed that he could maintain his composure under such scathing and demeaning attacks and having every answer he gave mocked and questioned. My husband, who served in the Army and Navy, said he behaved as a good soldier.

I object to the hearings being televised or broadcast at all. Did we broadcast and question every move in advance in WWII? Further, it is not a hearing, it is a televised political smear campaign waged against the same military that has kept this country free. It's a real hummer when our own Congress aids and gives comfort to our enemies.

To all of you moronic defeatists...
I thank God every day that this country had real men running it during WWII. With citizens like you who needs Nazis.

Easier to think like a Liberal
Liberal have a much easier thought process - all they have to do is believe everything that is told to them - and it's OK to make up things -like make-believe. It's a lot like the thought processes of children - reality really doesn't matter that much. They really don't have any disciplined thought processes. It would be funny, except for the fact that they are trying to be in charge. Have you ever seen a home when the children are in charge, and not the parents? Yikes, chaos.

so what is the end game here???????
whats the end game??
lets follow the logic of "staying the course" here.

i am still confused with mccains logic.

if he sees us staying for 100 years "as long as americans are not getting shot at, injured or killed", what if we never reach that point.

should we continue to stay there as well.

are we now taking the position that we should build permanent bases?

are we deciding we must rebuild the entire nation?

have we estimated the number of troops it will take to maintain these permanent bases when and if the violence stops?

have we decided what exactly the mission of U.S. troops would be on these permanent bases?

do we believe that we should foot the bill for this war and reconstruction while we run a deficit and iraq runs a surplus?

do we have a plan of action in the event that someone like sadr is democratically elected (like hamas in palestine)and moves to impose sharia law and tell us to leave?


i could go on for a while but that about covers my basic questions.
these are sincere and honest questions.
i have not heard any of these things being discussed on either side.

we need to talk about these things for the sake of our country's future.

what we DO NOT need to do is point fingers at each other and claim one side or the other is evil or insurgents, simply for trying to find our way out of a very complicated and complex problem.


Democrqats Are The Problem
They are the national security, economic and energy terrorists. They are far more dangerous than the jihadis.

Dems. are cowards and defeatists
and probably that will defeat them in Nov.

They can't really get more than a couple thousand for any of their monster anti-war rallies, and most of those are leftover hippies with gray ponytails and pot bellies.

The big "youth vote" the Dems. are relying on in the primaries has never materialized in a general election. Kerry got all the youth vote, and it wasn't 7% of the electorate.

Hillary has huge negatives. Up to 50% of some constituencies say they'll never vote for her. Obama's negatives will bigger when in the gen. election, more people hear and see the right Rev. Wright, whom Obama cannot bring himself to deny. And then, whoever the Dems. nominate, the opposite supporters may never throw in with the person now considered the enemy.

The Reps. have to mobilize themselves to run a strong campaign. The latest Rassmusen poll has McCain leading even in NJ, which hasn't voted Rep. in an election since Reagan in 1984.

Cons. have to decide they'd rather have a Rep. than a Marxist-socialist and start helping the McCain campaign. The entire direction of the US and the world is at stake.

Iraq and Afghanistan
The anti-war people always say that "if we just leave Iraq and pursue the fight in Afghanistan" then there will be no more problems". They don't seem to realize that the "fighters" will go where there are US troops. They will be in Afghanistan and continue to attack US troops. What will be the level of conflict that the Democrats and anti-war people will tolerate in Afghanistan before they declare it a "failure" and call for pulling the troops out?

Why Am I Not Surprised
That Boutte would prefer the ballet dancer?

On the subject of radical islam
Check out the latest entry at my blog.

It's sure to crack a few eggs!

Remember when
Michelle Obama said "for the first time, I am proud of my country?"
Well, I'm still waiting for the day I can say,"For the first time I am proud of Democrats"
Aint gonna happen!!

wait a minute
for 4 years democrats and some republicans including mccain and hegel yelled that the strategy was not working.

many conservatives took used the same tactics and the same words in this article.

they called democrats and mccain and hegel defeatists and traitors and and clained any american who dared to question bush rumsfeld or the military was undermining the troops.

well more americans than necessary died because these same conservatives and republicans did not have the guts to stand up to rumsfeld an dbush and say "something is not right here."


the silence of some conservatives and republicans and the attempted silenceing of any opposition COST AMERICAN LIVES.

it is the responsiblilty of congress to question the strategy of a war.

if the republican congress would have questioned more maybe petraaeus would have replaced rumsfeld sooner and there wuld have been less causalties.

despite what some may believe liberals want to win this war but they want to do it without bankrupting the country and the military.





Over-Schooled, Under-Educated
religious lib:

"if the republican congress would have questioned more maybe petraaeus would have replaced rumsfeld sooner and there wuld have been less causalties."

Good God, man!

thunderthudd
exactly what are you objecting to.

your presidential candidate said the same thing.


poor general Petraeus
It's a real hoot to watch right-wingers implode when their authoritarian father figures aren't lavished in abject reverence.

I'm proud of Democratic lawmakers who didn't tumble for the Oliver North ploy...put a decorated uniform in front of a House or Senate panel and watch the foghorns toady and fetch.

If BushCheney doesn't want its compliant military brass to get roughed up, then it should send the civilian leaders who are actually responsible for the policies the general was sent to defend.

It's clear after reading this blog a sufficient number of people with the requisite sensibilities and inclinations exists to populate a new-age Weimar republic.


Obvious facts versus ognorance
Sen. Rockefeller's error was due to his own ignorance of the facts and his dependence,no doubt, on staff members responsible for preparing his "cheat sheet" with accurate history and facts. The obvious is that most liberal Democrats hire young men and women, who are liberal thinking yet ignorant of history of this nation, who retrieve their information from revisionist,liberal, propaganda from the MSM.
The reason Gen.Petraeus and Amb.Crocker were able to sit and endure the "hot air" of flaming oratory was due to their character which includes bravery, courage and loyalty to their country. They each deserve a medal for suffering fools who call themselves members of Congress who are blinded by the bright lights of the cameras and their own inflated egos. What will it take to reveal their failure to defend our nation? I think they can be shown the truth in November by voters who understand loyalty- to our troops, to our nation and to our
future citizens-our children and grandchildren.

Tallil2long
"There are NO "Iraqi" forces loyal to the central government."

"When were you there?
If you weren't, then like so many of your sort you are *pretending* to know what you cannot. Inventing your own facts is not a practical approach to practical problems."




A neocon symnpathizer claiming someone else is not practical and pretending about the facts? That's just about priceless.

Here's some practicality for you. A precondition for a functioning army is loyalty. The people in the "Iraqi" army have recieved far more training than the U.S. soldiers we are sending over there. Training does not good if the troops are not loyal.

There is not a single person in our army who will tell you that the "Iraqi" army is a group of people made up of Sunnis Kurds and Shiites who will follow the Prime Minister's orders and take on any and all militias. Not one.

And how our current commander-in-chief can give aid and comfort to the enemy by claiming this is a "victory" for Al Qaeda when it has nothing to do with them is yet another reason why Conservatives cannot continue to be affilitated with the Republican Party.

Spare Us The Liberal Fascists
The myriad of voters cranked out by our esteemed educational system with all the fuzzy stuff on the INSIDE of their heads pose the greatest threat to the Americanist ideal of Liberty.

Were this country to be occupied by a liberating army of NATO forces who set about to rid us of liberal judges, professors, politicians, and protestors, we would be in better shape than we are now with those misguided boobs running amok as they do.

Michael Reagan is right
Why should we listen to the Democrats wanting to humilate America into an embarrassing loss in Iraq? For crying out loud, the Bush administration has more than five years of expertise and a nearly unblemished track record in helping America lose. For sheer boneheadedness, how do Obama, Clinton, Reid and the rest hope to compete with that? They are truly amateurs when compared with the Decider.

Go into Iraq with no post-conflict plan after the fall of Saddam's government? Brilliant!

Marginalize the Sunnis, put them out of jobs, dissolve the Iraqi Army that was supposed to help with maintaining order and reconstruction? And then fail to have enough troops to secure the weapons caches that would allow the Sunnis to arm themselves to conduct an insurgency? Brilliant!

Support one group of Shiites backed by Iran over another group of Shiites backed by Iran? Brilliant!

Pay with American blood and treasure for a 16-month surge in forces designed to quell the violence long enough for political reconciliations to begin, then not put any pressure on the government to actually do anything? Brilliant!

Try to referee a civil war while arming both sides and claiming we're going to stay in the game until the referees "win?" Brilliant!

The only other things they could have done would be to break our military, pay for the war with tax cuts that have driven up our debt so high that the dollar is plunging worldwide and leading us into recession and allow those who actually attacked America to grow stronger daily in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Oh, you say we did those things too? Brilliant!

On the subject of defeat, the Democrats cannnot hope to compete.


Perry White
Great Caesar's Ghost! I actually agree with one thing you said. They should have sent a civilian from DOD to answer the Democrap questions.

ThunderThud
"The myriad of voters cranked out by our esteemed educational system with all the fuzzy stuff on the INSIDE of their heads pose the greatest threat to the Americanist ideal of Liberty."


A neocon sympathizer claiming somebody else is fuzzy-headed and overloaded with hot air and academic jibberish?

That's just about priceless.

The neocons who howled for this invasion are a bunch of chicken hawks who have no military experience and have shown nothing but contempt for any of our retired people in uniform.

I say retired, because if your not retired and you tell it like it is, you soon will be.



And just look at Michael's conclusion
"If we had listened to the defeatist Democrats...al Sadr would be running Iraq with the help of Iran, and bin Laden would be using Iraq as a training base for al Qaeda."

Instead we listened to the Bush administration. And where do we stand today?

Al Maliki and his ISCI Party and the Badr Brigades are running Iraq with the help of Iran. Ahmedinijahd visits Baghdad and is given a heroes welcome while American officials have to slink into town under the cover of darkness.

Moqtada al Sadr is running parts of Iraq, including Mosul and large portions of Baghdad, with the help of Iran. And when the two sides clashed two weeks ago, where was the cease fire brokered? In Iran by the commander of the Qods Force.

And Michael, in case you haven't noticed, bin Laden repeatedly crows about his ability to use Iraq as a training ground for jihadists. For him, its much better than Afghanistan since it gives him a safe haven in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

So essentially, Bush has given us almost precisely the situation you say we would have obtained had anyone listened to Democrats. So much for your little fantasyland.

Bryce, Hal, et al....
Let’s see now; General Patreaus was invited to present to Congress the facts on the ground in Iraq and Congress specifically ignored every fact he presented and used the opportunity to rail against the Iraq War with the same talking points they have been using all along.

I agree with ‘Bryce” that “it is not Congress’ job to make the General feel warm and fuzzy, it is to get answers to the questions many, many Americans are asking” and it was off point for Michael Reagan to take the perspective he did. But, it follows then that Congress’ response should have incorporated that new information, not ignored it. The former would have been conducting the peoples business; the latter was just playing politics.

“Hal Donahue” complains that “Enhanced armored vehicles for the marines were held back because the Bush Regime feared they would hurt funding for other vehicles” as though had Bush spent the money on the armored vehicles and not for other vehicles Hal would not have turned the same argument around.

In the meantime, we do what we always do. Beat the snot out of each other out here in the real world over political ideology and party loyalty while the people we send to Washington as a result attend to their own best political interests, embrassing that ideology when it suits their personal purposes and ignoring it when it doesn’t.

More Hypocrisy
From the Rockefeller family.

When Mrs Rock worked for National Public Broadcastiing (she may still be there - on the taxpayer dime) there was a new HQ for NPB built (again on the taxpayer dime) across the street from a park where "day laborers" gathered waiting for contractors to come by & offer them work.
BUT because Mrs Rock could see the "laborers" from her office window she "demanded" they be "removed" from the area.

NOW many of these people are the very same (illegal) "day laborers" that the Dem/Libs profess to "love" at the expense of our own construction workers, landscapers, etc. in an effort to cultivate VOTES when the Libtards finally get that Comprehensive Reform they are so hot for!

The point is the Dems will always be EXACTLY what we know them to be...power-crazed politicians whose only interest is their own. They are ALL Manchurian Candidates.

W/O=

i notice
not one conservative poster has responded to my list of questions. i see alot of bellicose rhetoric but no concrete sense of where we are going.

assuming mccain is elected and we "stay the course"

what are the answers to these questions:

if he sees us staying for 100 years "as long as americans are not getting shot at, injured or killed", what if we never reach that point.

should we continue to stay there as well.

are we now taking the position that we should build permanent bases?

are we deciding we must rebuild the entire nation?

have we estimated the number of troops it will take to maintain these permanent bases when and if the violence stops?

have we decided what exactly the mission of U.S. troops would be on these permanent bases?

do we believe that we should foot the bill for this war and reconstruction while we run a deficit and iraq runs a surplus?

do we have a plan of action in the event that someone like sadr is democratically elected (like hamas in palestine)and moves to impose sharia law and tell us to leave?

No longer a Republican Smithington
And just how the hell would you know what's going on in Iraq? Do you get your information from moveon? Daily Kos? Perky Katie Kuric?

Speaking of prostitutes, it's the Democrats who jumped on the bandwagon right after 9/11 when going to war was popular with the insensed American public. The great unwashed has the attention span of a commercial break, however, and when things srarted getting rough, and we have't wrapped the war up in 22 weeks, they lost interest. True to form, the Democrats took full advantage of the gutlessness of the great American public and are now touting themselves as the party of peace.

BS. They're the party of myopia, pandering and cowardice.

religiouslib
I'll tell you why nobody will answer your questions.

First, your first question is based on a phrese taken out of context. It's a rhetorical question.

Second, you're not seeking answers, you're seeking more phrases to take out of dontext.

Go play your stupid games elsewhere.

Religious lib
McCain meant the same thing on his 100 year comment that B.C. meant when said we would only be in Bosnia for a year.I would suspect that we would have a permanent base there after the country is on its feet,just as we did with Germany and Japan.Our troops are still in those countries.Iraq will eventually rebuild itself as did Germany and Japan.

Bob_C
i am sorry but your wrong on both counts.


this is from realclearpolitics


This is what McCain said at a New Hampshire town hall meeting on Jan. 3 after a question from someone in the audience about how long he would keep U.S. troops in Iraq, referring to President Bush’s comments about possibly keeping them their another 50 years:

“Make it a hundred. … We’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That would be fine with me, as long as American, as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. It’s fine with me and I hope it would be fine with you if we maintained a presence in a very volatile part of the world where al Qaeda is training, recruiting and equipping and motivating people every single day.”

as far as the rest of my questions i am very sincere.

i do not play whatever games you are referring to.

it seems to me these questions need to be asked so we can have a national discussion about them.

you are being too cynical bob.


jax33
ok so then you believe we should have permanent bases?

again i am not setting a rhetorical trap here, just trying to envision where we are going.

when do the iraqis start paying for this.

i know japan and korea carry much of the financial burden for our troops being there and have done so since the beginning.

so if we have permanent bases, what is the mission?

i mean like i asked, what if al-sadr takes over, do we then physically remove him?

i don't have the answers i am trying to see the vision here.

religiouslib / jax33 - Some Answers?
Permanent bases: yes.
Iraqi's paying: 5-10 years when more stable. BTW the Japanese didn't make significant contributions to the US to relieve the $ burden for a number of years. It took a while to rebuild a lot of their manufacturing base.
Base mission: stability in an unstable part of the world. Protect our interests with our allies; similar to Germany vs. USSR.
Al-Sadr takes over: bases stay - see Guantanamo.

That's the best I've got for now. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

R Lib
My guess is that our bases would be there until asked to leave.Japan and Korea did not contribute right away,as their manufacturing base was wiped out.In Iraq we tried to save as much of their infastycture as we could.Saddam was more interested in builing palaces for himself and hi cronies ignoring the needs of his people much the same as we have pols in this country doing.

Oh ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
No longer a Republican Smithington writes:

"When were you there?
If you weren't, then like so many of your sort you are *pretending* to know what you cannot. Inventing your own facts is not a practical approach to practical problems."
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you ever screw up this time (OK, nothing new)! Tallil2long IS THERE! He's there making sure that you and your'e deafeatest dumbocraps & islamofacist pals DON'T win. He's only one of several of the posters here @ TH that either have been or still there. Lets us know how that funky foot of yours tastes. BTY, you should thank him for having the freedom of expressing just what a pathetic whinner and to show just how UNinformed you really are.

Sound retreat
In the new McCarthy I'm reading, there's a chapter about a speech he gave against Gen./Sec. of State George Marshall. That speech was published as a book and the title of that book is apropos of this discussion.

If a book were written about the Democrat's attitude toward Iraq, that title would fit to a tee.

That title ... America's Retreat from Victory.

The Dem's want a hasty retreat from victory.

religiouslib...we haven't seen
what your answer was to the question........

do YOU want to see the U.S. win¿

OK, you can do this cause it's a YES or NO question. Or maybe we're really asking to much?

jax33
how many troops do you think it will take?

yea the infrastructure is a major problem.


they are still only getting 2-4 hours a day of electricity and the water system sucks.

as i said i am not playing games here.

don't know if i agree with mccain but neither he nor any politican has painted the picture of where we are going to be 4-5 years from now if we stay.




We are winning in Iraq.

So many have no idea of the difficulty of running a war. We all know mistakes have been made. However, we know this only in hindsight.

How successful has the Bush administration been?

First and foremost, there have been no more 911s in the U.S. For me, that is pretty successful and is the most important success.

Iraq is growing toward being a free and self-sustaining country. That is success. Would I like it to happen quicker? Of course, but the creation of our own free and stable government took fighting of eight years and another five years to adopt a constitution.

Has Al Qaeda's growth been slowed, if not reversed? Yes, if nothing else by killing them as they come to defend Islam in Iraq.

Do Democrats see the above? Of course they do, they are just more interested in how they can use the Battle for Iraq to advance their own careers. Is that a despicable tactic? It is in my opinion and you can throw Chuck Hagel in with the Democrats. Thankfully he came to his senses and decided not to continue the farce he called being a U.S. Senator.

MNDuck writes:
You could be right Duck. However, we have closed bases in the Phillipines, France and several others. Of course we all hope that it wouldn't be for ever. That wouldn't be the ideal tour of duty in the desert....LOL.

geminiguy
oh yea of little faith

actually i said this on my 12:33 post



despite what some may believe liberals want to win this war but they want to do it without bankrupting the country and the military.

geminiguy
and i will say it personally yes i want to win as do most liberals.

it is a conservative myth that liberals who are just a patriotic don't want to win.

jax33
religious lib knows that. He's playing gotcha games. It's the same old neolib trick.

They scream bloody murder when the same crap is pulled on them (like it was on Obama) but when they do it it's "sincere questioning." What a pantload.

religiouslib
Lib writes: "and i will say it personally yes i want to win as do most liberals."

Yeah, that's why you libs want to do away with the patriot act, bring the troops home en masse, have declared the war lost, are very quick to criticize anything and everything that goes bad in Iraq, but never praise anything good, are constantly bringing charges against soldiers (who nearly always end up exonerated) and won't apologize for their haste in judgement, and do everything in your power to put impediments in front of the war effort.

Save it for the yokels, Lib, Your actions speak far louder than your hollow words.

gemini
In a perfect world we wouldn't need bases anywhere. But alas and alak, no such thing.

Deployment overseas should not be looked at lightly, but with the proper respect and balance due the men and women who would be so far away from home. Of course, this would not be the over-riding issue. The preeminent factor would be the security and safety of America and her citizens.

bobc
do your views represent all conservatives

i don't think so, in fact i know that they don't.

neither do my views represent all liberals.

you cannot stereotype millions of amercians into your little box.

just as there are different types of conservatives there are different types of liberals.

many conservatives had problems with the patriot act too.

you can't judge all by a few.

religiouslib writes:
actually i said this on my 12:33 post

OK...I fell for it, got me. Can you please scroll up and attempt to find that ?post @ that specific time.TY

Want to win what?
You hit the nail on the religiouslib. We are at a critical juncture in Iraq. Instead of continuing to operate on an ad hoc,six month at a time basis, we need to take a hard long look at the government we are fighting to keep in place in Iraq.

I say that now, while Maliki is on the ropes, we should be publicly pressing him to take such measures as cleaning up the corruption and Iranian influence within his party, and insist, again publicly, that he demonstrate his committment to reconcilliation and independence by paying the Sunni Awakening Councils with from their budget surplus.

Additionally, instead of continuing to put all our eggs in basket, we should be hedging our bets by finding and propping up leaders with real street credibility.

Remember folks, this fall the Iraqi voters will be the final arbritrars of conditions on the ground, and at present our guy is wildly unpopular. Elections are in less than six months, we do not have the luxury of patience.

Liberals Created

DO NOT want to win any war - except the war against the logger or the furrier or the "rich."

Or the war against the American. THAT one they want to win.

Forkem all.

religiouslib
You're the one who said "most liberals" want to win the war, yet "most liberals" are voting for people like Harry Reid, Nancy Pilosi, Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha, John Edwards and an endless list of other gutless wonders who're constantly doing everything in their power to demoralize the troops, defund the war, bring the troops home without regard to the consequences and politicize evrything to do with the war on terror.

I'm sorry lib, but you can't have it both ways. First you say "most," then you say you're only speaking for yourself.

MnDuck
I'm one of those that have been some of the nicer duty stations(Hawaii) to the likes of Enewetak MI and the high deserts of Calif and alot in between. Although I've not experienced actual combat, the sometimes intense training and the hardships that we have gone through gives us a different perspective of what is the REAL WORLD is and the wishfull, could be, should be. Whoaaa.....is that almost the same thing as the Rep vs. Dem¿

Benchmarks for Defeat

Does anyone find Senators Obama’s and Clinton’s questioning theme a bit odd during the Generals report? Both of them, albeit differently worded, asked Gen Petraeus, what is the criteria for a loss. In other words...how bad does it have to get before we declare defeat?

What are the benchmarks for defeat? Thankfully I don’t the General, or anyone else on his staff are focusing in that direction.

That says more than every article or posts on every political website could every say.


GeminiGuy
1. Thank you for your service to our country and working to preserve MY freedoms. I have nothing but respect for EVERY man or woman who voluntarily signs on the dotted line to protect this great country!
2. How about mandatory 2 year service to the country between HS and College? Not only militarily, but in various other public service venues.
IMHO it might engender a greater love and respect for the good ole US of A and help each citizen be a little more respectful of the great country we live in. (Not to mention, a little more respectful of the military and the freedoms they protect!)

Bob_C
The best sources I have seen on this matter are the American Conservative Magazine and Military.com. -- which you can google into your search box to get.

I also think that William F. Buckley Jr. along with George Will have pretty much put the nail on the head. Also available by googling.

I also feel that the statements made by:

Lawrence Korb, assistant secretary of defense for Ronald Reagan

General William Odom, head of the national security agency under Ronald Reagan

Colonel Wilkerson, form Chief of Staff for Colin Powell

have a little more credibility than the acadmecians over at the American Enterprise Institute.

You choose who you want to listen to, but I have come to the conclusion that the Republican Party is not big enough for both the neocons and the Conservatives.

And since the party has chosen the neocons and berates any Conservative who does nothing more than espouse Conservative principles, I will be finding someone else to vote for this november.

bryce writes:
“Want to win what?”

See my 6:12 AM post. Thanks for making my point.

You seem to have some valid comments. But if your starting point is not “yes” I want win, then I have to conclude that you want to lose. And if you desire defeat, convince me why that’s a good thing for America.

Bob_C

A good article by a military man who actually uses facts.


http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,163312,00.html


The Black Cherokee
"Alright Donahue, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.......
Prove your "Yet it is the Bush Regime itself that has deprived the military of "supplies or other support to the men fighting in the field."" -- statement."

I normally don't do this but I will make one exception. Note that the continuing resolution forced purchases of the vehicles at a faster pace and that was called PORK by Rs in Congress Bush was more careful and called it wastseful spending the MRAP

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,162818,00.html

But we can go on forever with examples.



The Black Cherokee
"Prove that allegation or apologize. NO OTHER OPTIONS bonehead --NONE!!!"

Now do you apologise????

No longer a Republican Smithington
Reference your recommended website:

“The stall tactic we know as the "surge strategy" has a clear and definable objective. No, it's not to create sufficient security in Iraq for political reconciliation to take place. It's to keep the war's critics at bay until the neoconservatives can slip John McCain into the White House.”

That’s factual? With all due respect to you and Mr. Huber, that is blind conjecture and borderline conspiracy theory. If that’s being a true conservative, call me neo.


inthenow
That is a single paragrpah of an article that actually uses data in later paragraphs to support it -- unlike the articles at this web site inlcuding the one just written by Michael Reagan.

You didn't read the whole article, which isn't surprising.

I don't find very many people at this web site who have read much of anything.

No longer a Republican Smithington
In that I agree with you. There is blessed little difference between today's Republican party and the Democrat party. I've never been a member of either, but usually vote for the lesser of two evils in the Republican party.

Unfortunately, there will be no lesser evil this election.

Yes I want to win
But rather than using this time to pat ourselves on the back for the gains achieved, we need to be putting focus on the upcoming provincial elections.

The real success of the 'surge' will be decided by the Iraqi voters in the south who are poised to determine who controls the country's oil fields and ports.

We win by giving them a reason to support our dog in the race.

Bob_C
And the sad part of it is, you happen to be right about the democrats in general and more specifically on the committee that questioned Patraeus.

They have done nothing more than follow the polls -- period. The language that comes out of their mouths for why they were for it when the polls favored it, and why they're against it now that the polls don't favor it is pure gibberish.

The abject ignorant questions by the democrats on that committee about aspects of Iraq were embarrassing. Of course, it's hard to fit in time to do some research when you're playing the cocktail circuit.

Duck......
TY. What you mentioned is really ironic as this the same discussion I had with my 13yo G'daugh. My thoughts were that if it wasn't the military, maybe something similar to the peacecorps...mostly helping here in the U.S. It would just be something in the service to our country, to give back what most take for granted.

GeminiGuy - Last Shot for Now
What about the VISTA program? Volunteers in Service to America. Oh well, too many people would squeal like a stuck pig if they were required to give something of themselves and not just receive from this great country.

Off to the bank. Hope to catch a word with you on another topic at another time.

Regards.

No longer a Republican Smithington
I confess! After ready the opening paragraph and several more, I formed my assertions and didn’t see the need to read on. Kind of like when I see Hal make a post...I’ve seen enough to know to ignore his comments.

However, for the sake of fairness, I read the entire article. My initial assumption was correct.

The main “fact” Mr. Huber uses to base his initial assertion on, is a poll from the BBC. That’s akin to a survey by PBS.

Two things: 1) Assuming the poll is correct; only suggest the opinions of one demographic slice of Iraq taken in 2007. I doubt the General and company have that subjective finding on their criteria lists to determine surge progress in 2008. 2) This has nothing...zero to due with Mr. Huber’s initial assertion.

Finally, the article is riddled with these types of accusational comments:

“It is patently obvious the neoconservative spin merchants have been selling us the Gerber Baby Food variety of truth. The question is: which flavor of the truth is John McCain telling himself?”

Very cute and witty, but the guy obviously does not like Senator McCain, just as you don’t. He accuses others of “spin”, when his entire article is twisting truths and half truths to support his ideals.

The column has nothing to do with reality or McCain, but rather with the author’s own worldview.



inthenow
The idea that that was the only fact is laughable as is the assertion that the poll means nothing. But anbody who wants to can read it and make up their own mind.

I will say this much.

It is quite out of the ordinary for military.com to publish articles as critical as the ones they have been printing recently.

But you must not know much about Military.com.

Unlike Townhall.com, Military.com actually has some standards for what it allows on its web site. It doesn't allow junk.

The fact that you don’t think much of Military.com is not surprising.

Neocons don’t have respect for the military, so why should they have respect for a web site dedicated to the military.



No longer a Republican Smithington
Please don’t join the ranks of the far left with personal attacks. I’ve been told by people I respect that the far right is just as bad is the far left...don’t prove them correct with groundless cheap tactics.

You no as much about me as I do you...nothing!

I have 22 years of military service via the USMC and USAF and more than 50 combat flight hours in the EC-130E. But that means squat to me personally. I care more about what’s in people’s hearts and between their ears than I do concerning their resume. But I say again…you know nothing about me.

If you must revert to personal attacks, then I have one last thing to say to you. The Daily Kos awaits.

inthenow
I did not personally attack you. I said you were disrespectful. That does not mean you are a bad and evil person. And I will not call you names.

It is more than a little strange that someone with extensive military service does not understand that Military.com has certain standards for its articles.

That does not mean the web site review board necessarily agrees with an opinion, but they will only print articles that show a certain amount of research done by people with significant experience in the subject matter being discussed.

You did not respectfully disagree with the author. You implied that the article was the same as some cheap political trash one might find on Daily Kos.

That is disrespectful to that web site and the military in my view.

MNDuck/GeminiGuy
"What about the VISTA program? Volunteers in Service to America. Oh well, too many people would squeal like a stuck pig if they were required to give something of themselves and not just receive from this great country. "

I think you will find programs like this in all the Ds policies. They have been there for some time and were a big part of Kerry's education proposals. It seems that rural and conservative Americans are frightened of having to mix with liberals and city folk and historically hate programs like this. Instead they suggest missionary work or church based programs etc anything to reduce mixing and mingling of not just genes but ideas

Actually, the answer you get
from liberals on winning the war is another question: "Why should the US police the world" and the answer to that rhetorical device is because someone has to.

We were in Germany five years (and still have 78,000 troops there) before Ger. became a dem. nation. We occupied Japan for eight years (and still have 50,000 troops there), wrote their constitution (MacArthur wrote it), rewrote their text books, and brought in tons of teachers to restructure their schools before Japan had a dem. Korea was less a success as it is split (and we have 38,000 troops there), but the South of Korea is a dem. and a thriving capitalist country--as is Japan and Germany, although the latter's leftover socialism from Bismark is a drag on its economy and it regularly runs 10-13% unemployment.

Iraq is a fractious, tribal-oriented, non-Western country, but I don't see that as any worse a place for freedom and dem. than an isolated, militarist, emporer-worshiping Japan.

And 150,000 troops in a nation of 24,000,000 is not a large force. A dem. Iraq whether reconciled or not is a huge factor among local cultures that are almost all entirely tyrannical, dictatotorial, and/or heriditary fiefdoms.

Defeat for nations is unequaled in the social and economic disasters that follow. Germany after WW I got hyper inflation and Hitler. After the fall of Saigon, we got Carter, stagflation, recession, and military humilitation. Dems. are already promising restricted trade and protectionism, strong causes of the Great Depression.

You posters should not be too eager to see Iraq fail because you hate someone or some party or throw around "neo-con" and other terms. The chickens will find your roost.

No longer a Republican Smithington
I won’t get into some silly back-and-forth, he said, she said debate, all too common on the threads. I swore I wouldn’t do it. And you have already shown your colors.

I meant no disrespect to anyone...and after rereading my post, still don’t see it. None was intended and I apologize if any was unintentionally taken.

“You did not respectfully disagree with the author. You implied that the article was the same as some cheap political trash one might find on Daily Kos”

Please excuse my meager writing skills, but if you’ve extrapolated this from my short critique, then I suggest you just skip over my comments in the future. I said nothing offensive about you or Mr. Huber. Furthermore, I’ve shown both you and he more respect than either of you has Senator McCain.

Military.com is not sanctioned by the DOD, but obviously the majority of its readers are or were. I’m a member and subscribe to the emails for the sole purpose of keeping up on retiree news that may affect my benefits. I’ve read some of their articles and will continue to do so. But trust me; it is not “strange” if someone with extensive military experience doesn’t blog there.

As for “neocon”…I don’t know what one is, nor do I want to know. I will continue to judge comments by content, not by author.

Have a nice life!

Renny
Nice figures on our scattered troops. For many reasons its time to bring them home. Our troops in Korea should be moved to Pusan, 3/4 of our troops in Germany and Japan brought home, all of our troops in the Balkans and virtually all our troops supporting UN dictates unless funded 100 per cent from UN funds. Anything less is merely cultural lag, convenience and sloth. As long as we pick up the slack, it is stupid to expect other countries to defend themselves.

renny
"Iraq is a fractious, tribal-oriented, non-Western country, but I don't see that as any worse a place for freedom and dem. than an isolated, militarist, emporer-worshiping Japan."

Postwar Germany and Japan each had mature (at least a full generation old) constitutional orders by the end of the 19th century. They both endured as constitutional orders until the 1930s. Thus, General Clay and General MacArthur were merely reversing a decade and a half of totalitarianism – returning to nearly a century of liberal political change in Japan and a much longer period in Germany.

Win what? Inthenow
Was there a door prize and everybody missed it?

Seriously, Inthenow, if there was ever anything for America to win in Iraq, it was in the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. And we won! That phase of the conflict is long over.

Since then, due to the longtime animosities between various religious sects in Iraq, as well as our own stupidity for the first four years of the post-war period, we have been mediating a civil war. In essence, we are the referees trying to hold warring factions apart.

I have been to a lot of games but never once have I seen the referees win. Not once. We can have all the grand ideas we want about what we want Iraq to become, but the Iraqi people really don't give a hoot about what we want for their country. They are in a battle for who will control it once we leave and that battle will happen, one way or another, if and when we ever do leave.

Recognizing that, my problem with our current posture is that we have never had a realistic vision for the endstate we want to achieve in order to exit the country nor a strategy to get there. It has been an adhocracy since the very start, with our goals and objectives changing like the seasons. Nothing I heard from Petraeus and Crocker at the hearings indicates even today a clear vision for what we are trying to achieve and how we plan to get there.

Most of what they said regarding the pointed questions asked by both Republicans and Democrats on our strategies and objectives resembled circular syllogisms.

We surged nearly 40,000 troops into the country 16 months ago to calm the violence long enough for the al Maliki government to begin the process of political reconciliation. And the Maliki government did nothing. By many measures, reconciliation is father awy today than it was when the surge began.

Yet we continue to write the Maliki government a blank check with the blood of American troops. Perhaps you can explain to me how we can achieve any sort of victory from that.


DEMOCRATS - PARTY OF LOSERS

.....The goal of the Democrats is the overthrow of our Republic and our Free Market Capitalist Economy to be replaced by a Socialist State ...every election and every law passed in Congress brings us a step closer ...

.....That aside, I don't understand how anyone can be a Democrat ...it is the Party of negativism, always seeing the wrong and never the right, always seeing the bad and never the good, the glass is always half empty with them and if they can't find problems to complain about then they create them, America and Western Culture are always in the wrong in their opinion and the future they promise is bleak indeed ...it must really suck to be a Democrat .....COLOSSUS

No surprises
I didn't get a chance to read this article earlier in the day. I did however, anticipate the usual crowd of anti-American, anti-War types jumping on the subject. Not surprisingly, such was the first cat out of the bag if you will.

The place they dare not look however, is the reality of the bloodbath and carnage that will follow, not to mention the absolute global chaos, should we fail (can you say Basra). But then when you simply believe you can always escape responsibility by blaming someone else, why bother.

Dan
"The place they dare not look however, is the reality of the bloodbath and carnage that will follow"

You act as if we can prevent that from happening. We can delay it, and that is what Bush is in the process of doing. Unfortunately it extends the period of time over which Iraq will continue to be unstable and allows all sides to accumulate more weapons.

If you don't like what is going to happen there, you should not have been for the invasion.

Dan
Carnage and chaos may well follow a precipitous departure from Iraq. Or they may not. It is so difficult to predict any results i see little reason to continue the current attempts to conquer a nation by being nice. Whip 'em and shape 'em up, or get out and let the militias settle who is boss. It looks more and more to me like let's do a fortress America, with unilateral committments to strategic and proven countries of similar interest like Australia, and let the bugs fight it out. The nuclear cat is already out of the bag. We need controlled borders, human intelligence as large and efficient for our size as Israel has for theirs, a continually upgraded ABM system, and about 3 times the submarine fleet we have now. If the jihadis resort to guerilla type, no uniform warfare as contrary to the rules of war and the Geneva convention, they are more than susceptible to the same type of operations. How difficult could it be to penetrate a country where half the population has only one eye available for ID? :-D

inthenow
Well all right inthenow. But again,

Saying you were disrespectful is not a personal attack.

You wrote this about an article on the Military.com web site.

“his entire article is twisting truths and half truths to support his ideals.

The column has nothing to do with reality”

There is a big difference between dismissing an article in that manner if it appears on Townhall.com or some other web site as opposed to Military.com.

I'm all for a little smack in the comments section, particularly at a web site like this whose reputation is suspect.

But the review board at the Military.com web site puts its reputation behind the articles it allows to be published on its web site.

The way in which you dismissed the article is not the way I would have done it in light of the web site it appeared on and the reputations of the people involved.


And to bring up the way in which politicians running for President are talked about as being analogous or relevant here is unpersuasive.

Hal - Tell me you're not serious
What's this idiocy of "It seems that rural and conservative Americans are frightened of having to mix with liberals and city folk and historically hate programs like this. Instead they suggest missionary work or church based programs etc anything to reduce mixing and mingling of not just genes but ideas".

Where are your facts to back up this assertion?

Your comment about conservatives and rural people smacks of condescension and arrogance. The conservatives I know relish getting together with people not like themselves and helping them out. Also, why is it that more conservatives and rural Americans VOLUNTEER to serve our country by joining the armed forces?

As an aside, I work at a non-profit in MN working with alcoholics and addicts just out of prison helping them back on their feet again and my conservative views make Rush Limbaugh look like the late Senator Paul Wellstone. What does that make me? (Save the insults).

Regards

Ken in Tennessee
Thoughtful post.

No door prize I’m afraid. Perhaps just the clarification to others here, that you want what is best for America…that normally equates to winning the war.

I think you make some valid points…objective measurable criteria in any war is critical to success. In this war the end state is down right elusive. There is no question that after five years of conflict, the phases of combat have changed from conventional to counter insurgency. Not to mention the political problems. From what little I know about this type of warfare, it is much easier to lose than win.

I assume the final product in Iraq (assuming we stay) will be some form of relative normalcy other than what‘s happening now. The bar seems to keep coming down.

I don’t pretend to know all the answers to the complex set of problems facing us in Iraq…some of which you’ve highlighted. But here’s my take on it. There is no one better qualified to judge our chances of success than the team that’s in Iraq at this moment. No one! Not you, me, and all the collective wisdom of congress (oxymoron?). And it doesn’t help our cause when a certain segment of our population is undeniably rooting for defeat.

I trust Gen Petraeus and the majority of boots on the ground…to include the diplomatic corps. Perhaps as a military retiree I’m biased…so be it. But I’m pretty sure, based on my own experience with general officers that the General and his staff will do what they think is best. Including providing objective feedback.

The question still remains, whether you think the war is winnable or not. Do you want to win this war? Define it in any terms you like.

Not a hearing
It is true that the Dems. don't have to agree and make the general feel warm and cuddly. Serious questions are fine.

However, it is supposed to be a hearing for them to gather info needed to legislate. When they announce their opinions as to the failure of the surge before they even have their questions asked, it shows that they have no interest in finding out what happened. They just want to declare it over.

I am an attorney. If I went into a hearing where the person conducting the hearing announced the type of verdict the Dems did before it started, I would pack my bags, say, "I guess you don't need to hear from me," and go home.

Born and raised a Dem until 12 years ago Embarrased to have supported that crew. Boy, was I dumb. Forgive me.

Michael, I voted against your dad. Shows how stupid I was.

gardenDave
Well said!

I would add that the whole process has more of a circus atmosphere than professional forum.

I’d like to see less media and spectators. And literally seat the senators at the same level as everyone else. If anything, Gen Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker should be in elevated positions.

Inthenow
"There is no one better qualified to judge our chances of success than the team that’s in Iraq at this moment. No one!"

General Petraeus has done a good job given the fact that he is contrained by the policy. In other words, given who his boss is.

I am reasonably confident he knows that no "deal" of any kind can be made among the warring parties in Iraq that will bring stability and order, even temporarily.

And that he knows the green zone and the current government will have to fall before a functioning government can form.

And that that cannot happen until we leave. So he has come up with a status quo solution for Bush to get out of town and pass this mess off to somebody else.

That is not Patraeus fault and he deserves none of the blame.

Inthenow
Your comment deserves a thoughtful response...but not before I thank you for your service to America.

First things first, I truly don't know what "winning" in Iraq means. Someone will win, but it's not likely to be America since it's not our country.

By one measure, I can agree with you that our goals have been lowered repeatedly. It is as much not knowing what we were getting into as it is the fact that our goals were never clear after the overthrow of Saddam. And the neoconservative fantasy of creating a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq's divided sectarian society was never more than a delusion.

By another measure, a stable government in Iraq is probably the best we can hope for. If that's winning, I'm all for it. It may take division of the country, it may take a civil war or it may take us beginning to withdraw more troops to bring pressure on the al Maliki government to begin making political concessions. Whatever it takes, we seem no closer to it today than we were five years ago.

Our military has done everything we have asked of it and more. Once Petraeus was placed in charge, our military tactics have been superb. We did calm the violence to create space for political solutions. It is not the fault of our troops that the Iraqis did not take advantage of it.

But it is not the job of Petraeus to develop a strategy for American involvement in Iraq. That is the job of our political leadership, which has repeatedly failed our troops. I see nothing today beside kicking the can down the road to the next president, who can hopefully begin to develop realistic objectives and a strategy for accomplishing them.

I do know is what losing looks like -- and it looks a lot like where we are today. Not militarily, but politically and in most other ways. This war continues to break our military, break our treasury and divide the American people. That is too high a cost to pay to simply mark time in Iraq with no solution in sight.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller
He should be ashamed of himself for his comments about Senator McCain. No other comment necessary.

Dr. Leonard Tulman

Hal wrote:
Hal Donahue writes: Friday, April, 11, 2008 9:39 AM
sawdust
"How can one possibly listen to what the left has said for the last 5 years and not come to the conclusion that they want us to lose this war? "

Oh stop it! It isn't about the far laft they are as relevant as the far right folks here which means they are not. The moderates will decide how Bush's war in Iraq ends no one else.

You dodged the question (again). As for you being a moderate, HA! HA! HA!

MNDuck
"Where are your facts to back up this assertion?"

Personal experience?

".. Also, why is it that more conservatives and rural Americans VOLUNTEER to serve our country by joining the armed forces?"\

Data to back that up please? Are you saying our military is made up of the under privileged?

"As an aside, I work at a non-profit in MN working with alcoholics and addicts just out of prison helping them back on their feet again and my conservative views make Rush Limbaugh look like the late Senator Paul Wellstone. What does that make me? (Save the insults)."

That is easy a hypocrite! Is parasite correct? I am not certain please let me know

Even though as I am sure you know Rushie is an addict and he did say white suberban males supporting the illegal drug trade should be locked up but then ,,,, LOL


Hal - Thanks?
Wow. How did I know that you would insult me and call me names. . . . .

I have never communicated before with you in my life and this is what I get. Based on previous posts I have read of yours, I guess I should have expected no different.

Nice that you have enough personal experience to make a judgment about all conservatives and people from rural areas. Out of the 300 million people in the U.S., how many does that come to?

Please be reasonable; have you read any statistics indicating that our military is primarily from the urban areas and is liberal? If so, why do they predominantly vote Republican?

I would never say that our military is made up of the underprivileged. I would say they are honorable and dedicated men and women.

You called me a hypocrite and a parasite? Where did that come from? Why is it not beneath you to call me names?

Good thing Rush's addiction was to legal pain killers, but it is a sad situation no matter how you look at it. If he did something illegal, he should have to pay the appropriate penalty.

Let me know if you want to participate in a constructive dialog about ideas, policies and various political positions in the future. If you do not find it beneath you to name call, I simply will find it beneath me to respond to any of your posts in the future.

Regards

Liberals
love to tell us we should enlist and go fight. I'm waiting for you all to join AlQueda and do the same.

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
Your HERO Kerry met with the enemy to get instructions.
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

Your conceit combined with your insane compulsion to be noticed has already earned you the disgust of Conservatives.
Tell us what a great hero Kerry is and how much you admire him and want to be like him?
I am curious to see if you can cause Conservatives to have more contempt for you than they already have.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0408,schanberg,51276,1.htm l

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

Let's see
Revolution began in 1775.

Declaration of Independence in 1776.

Constitution in 1789.

Freedom is not a microwave hot dog.

Ken in TN
First and foremost, thanks for the kind words.

Again the tone and content of your comments seem to reflect a genuine concern for the end state in Iraq. It’s refreshing to hear that and an honest debate sans the ideological trappings.

At least we agree that we’re on the same team.

Go Tigers! (MSU Grad 1985)

Bush’s nation building strategy?
Saudi Cleric Muhammad Al-Munajid Warns:Freedom of Speech Might Lead to Freedom of Belief?

Why Bush’s nation building strategy is not working in the Middle East!

MEMRI-Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi cleric Muhammad Al-Munajid, which aired on Al-Majd TV on March 30, 2008.

Muhammad Al-Munajid: Some of these heretics say: “Islam is not the private property of anyone.” So what do they want? They say: “No sect has a monopoly on Islam.” So what do they want? They say: “We want to issue rulings.” Someone who is ignorant, who does not know any Arabic, or who has no knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence wants to issue rulings?! They say: “We reinterpret the texts.” There is a very dangerous conspiracy against the religion of Islam in newspapers and in what these people say. A journalist, or one of those lowlifes, wants to… These people are a mixture of Western, local, and imported ideologies, but they want to express their views with regard to religious rulings. This is the prerogative of religious scholars, not of ignorant people, the prerogative of knowledgeable people, not of fools or heretics.

WATCH VIDEO


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/saudi-cleric-muham mad-al-munajid-warnsfreedom-of-speech-might-lead-to-freedom -of-belief

America's Odds Better That Hillary's
Hillary Clinton has virtually no chance now of securing the Democratic nomination, but she is going to fight it out to the bitter end. In fact, when it comes to the Clinton's political ambitions, they take a "win at all costs" approach.

But when it comes to the war in Iraq (or Somalia, or Viet Nam), the Clinton's can't give up fast enough. We need a president that will fight as tenaciously for America to win as they do for their own goals and ambitions. John McCain, despite his faults, is that man.

Religiouslib
I agree that the loyalty of the right (including myself) to Rumsfeld was a huge mistake, which cost American lives. That doesn't mean I have given up on the war, or that I regret the decision to go to war, just that political loyalty blinded us to the realities on the ground.

The good news is the problem has been fixed and things are going very well in Iraq now. Do not make the same mistake we did and allow your political loyalties to blind you to the realities on the ground.

Observation
As I drive home through various neighborhoods, I see houses with large flagstaffs flying American flags. I also see many houses with a red & white "Support the Troops - End the War" signs. I have yet to see a house with both flag and sign.

One of these days, I will make "WIN" stickers in the sign colors and paste them over the word "End".



Ken in TN
Great post at 8:11.

If I were to attempt to surmise "America's" opinion of the war, that'd be it.

The War Of Words
The left wing of the Democrat Party and some left-leaning Republicans have one thing in mind.That is total control of the government.

When,or if, they acquire that,they will take us further and further into socialism.We are close to losing our sovereignty,because of open borders.We will be no more than a third workd country in a few years.

The government is meddling into our monetary system and screwing it up,royally.Are they trying to get control of that,also? If so,that may be fascism.All these isms are confusing,but they are all scary.

Years from now,I predict,liberals will look back longingly at us 'right-wingers,neocons,Bible-thumping',conservatives, and know they were wrong.They will probably not admit it,but they will know it.

Reagan wrote
"The goals of the Democrats and both al Qaeda and al Sadr insurgents are the same: the defeat of the United States in the war in Iraq. "

How dumb does anyone have to be to make a statement like this?

On top of the obvious, it shows Reagan doesn't even understand the war - it's not about a military defeat, for the record, it's not a football game. Too bad he didn't listen to Petraus before writing this stupid column.



Rowly
Certainly you're not serious. For the past 8 years, we've had a Republican president who has written hundreds of overrides to decisions made by our elected congress; interfered with the justice Department, spied on American Citizens (in defiance of the Attorney General) and arbitrarily denied other citizens their legal writes to lawyers and trials; created opportunities to spy on the books we read and the internet sites we use, held public policy meetings in secrecy, and fired military officers who questioned his power and his ideas.

Now, why would you think Democrats want to "run the country"? We've had a king for eight years, didn't you notice?

My answer is YES!!
...to the question posed, "Do you want the US to win?"

We have invested our young men and women's lives in this effort to protect our country from the threat of Islamic terrorism, and the consequences of failure are enormous.

You may call it an elective war, but the alternatives are dangerously inadequate for our national security.

Returning our national military force to the level of the Clinton era would be inviting more attacks on the level of 9/11.

Even the 9/11 Commission found that "They were at war with us, but..."

We must not surrender. We have to win this.

Slinkie

Slinkie
Just curious...what do you see a "win" looking like? Who, exactly, would be winning against? Sunnis? Shiites? the Sadr milita? Iran? the Taliban? Al Quaida? (Well, the dirty little secret that war panderers don't want you to know is that Al Quaida has become almost inconsequential, it has divided into so many splinter groups).

Also, what happens when we "win"? Do we take their leaders, like a game of chess? Which ones? Do we put them in Jail? Do we build Wal-marts and housing developments in the sand?

We are currently paying millions of dollars to the Sunnis, who just months ago were killing US soldiers at every opportunity, so they won't shoot the soldiers who are still alive. What happens when we "win"? Will we cut off their gravy train? What will they do then?

and, if you will, please tell me how this "win" is going to protect America. Do you envision rag-tag Iraqi militias floating up on rafts on our beaches? Or do you think it will be like D-Day? Or, more to the point, if your idea of national security is about the prevention of bombs in public places, how is our "win" going to prevent that? How will that work?

Last, now that our destruction of Iraq has empowered Iran - let's face it, this was the valentine of the century - how is our "win" in Iraq going to influence Iran? shall we just give it to them as we walk out the door, as a kind of going-away present?

One more thing, Slinky
You said, "We have invested our young men and women's lives in this effort to protect our country from the threat of Islamic terrorism,"

We were not attacked by Iraqis. We were attacked by Saudi Arabians, who were being protected of Afghans.

What was the point of attacking Iraq, again?

deathstar
I am as serious as a heart attack.You can-NOT be serious about the things you wrote.Anyone with one eye and half sense knows three-forths of your accusations are bunk.

Now lets talk about Democrats...Jimmah Cotter,now he's a fine one.Doesn't know if he's coming or going.Never met a dictator he didn't like.Weak as a dishrag.Disgraceful.

Billy,the accused rapist, Clinton. Getting serviced by "that woman..Ms.Lewinski" ,while talking to a congressman,on the phone about Bosnia.Molested any number of women.Never denied it,either.

Decimated our military.Traded nuclear secrets to the Chinese Communists.Had a wag-the-dog bombing to get Monica off the headlines.Bombed an ASPIRIN factory.

Admitted he had several chances to get Bin Laden and refused.Had many White House sleep-ins for campaign cash.Sold pardons for campaign cash.

Time and space will not allow me to list the many sins of Mr C. Suffice it to say...I want NO Democrat alive to govern me!

If you doubt any of my accusations,since you evidently were born yesterday..check out...The A To Z Guide Of Clinton Scandals. Read about your hero (and his wife).

It's Occupation, Not War
Seems to me all this is all much to do about nothing.

The war in Iraq ended some years ago.

What's been happening since is occupation and resistance to occupation.

It's always helpful to call things by the right name.

One of the ways using the wrong word can trip us is illustrated by John McCain's campaign theme.

We have to win the war in Iraq, he keeps saying.

Ending a war implies either winning or losing. No such baggage is attached to an occupation.

You can end an occupation without either winning or losing. You just withdraw your troops.

Why Worry
We all died in Ronald Reagans nuclear holocaust which was a result of his futile effort to defeat the (progressive) USSR.

Remember all those dire predicitions when the Gipper was kicking tail and taking names? I sure do.

Fact is that defeating the Evil Empire was good for America and the GOP. Guess which party it was bad for.

General Petraeus is good for America. He is terrible for dhimmicrats.


What a maroon!
Hal Donahue writes: Friday, April, 11, 2008 9:59 PM

MNDuck
"MND: Where are your facts to back up this assertion?"

Hal: Personal experience?"

That's a question, not an answer.

Hal: "Even though as I am sure you know Rushie is an addict..."

He IS? What do you mean IS? You have little clue. I hope that you and you family members never get serious long-term pain like he did. My wife had a leg injury and we were concerned that when she finished rehab that we wouldn't be able wean her from the morphine, but fortunately, she never reached the dependency level. This is not like seeking street drugs to get high.

What is it about liberals that makes their compassion stop at real people?

So, Rowly
"Anyone with one eye and half sense knows three-forths of your accusations are bunk."

But you carefully avoided addressing each one of them. They're not bunk, you know it, and if you don't you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Answering my statements about Bush's aggressive and illegal use of power just be talking about Clinton's sex life is not an answer/

YOu lose.


Rowly, this columnist
claims that Democrats want to see America destroyed. You agree, apparently.

The two of you are on the same intellectual level. It's a stupid thing to say and I would be even more stupid if I spent any more minutes of my precious, happy life paying any more attention to it.

deathstar
Ho-hum...yawn...sweet talk will get you nowhere.

Did I ask you to reply?..I don't THINK so...

Your accusations are your imagination. Go peddle your papers to someone who you can con...It is NOT me.

deathstar
I will answer you,even though I said I wouldn't.In your post replying to my 8:42pm post,you wanted to know why I mentioned Clinton's sexual escapades.

Out of seven paragraphs I wrote ,six having absolutely nothing to do about sex,you picked out one.Now why is that? You disregarded the others,so don't talk about somebody not answering your arguments.

Just wanted to set the record straight.I really don't care why or what you think about anything,nor should you care about my beliefs.
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