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Wednesday, April 02, 2008
Michael Reagan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Haditha: The Collapse of a Liberal Fiction
by Michael Reagan
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You'd hardly know it if you relied on the mainstream media, but the government's case against the Haditha Marines took another body blow last Friday that may be the beginning of the end for this whole sorry attempt to severely punish eight heroic United States Marines for doing what they are trained to do.

In a surprise development on the day Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum's court martial was scheduled to begin, all charges against him were dropped without explanation.

Tatum, facing charges of reckless endangerment and aggravated assault that could have sent him to prison for 18 years, was the fifth Marine -- and the second of three enlisted men -- to be exonerated, leaving only one enlisted Marine still facing court martial.

Tatum's exoneration should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the real facts in the case. During an ambush by insurgent forces in Haditha, 15 civilians and nine insurgents were killed by Marines of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines. The incident began when an IED explosion killed a Marine and wounded two others. In the wake of that explosion, a squad of Marines came under insurgent gunfire.

The 15 civilian deaths, which came during house-clearing operations, were the result of a time-honored insurgent tactic of hiding themselves among civilians when ambushing U.S. forces, hoping to score a propaganda coup when the civilian shields are killed in the ensuing crossfire.

Full details of the incident on November 19, 2005 were supplied in great detail to the entire command structure the very night of the engagement, and the incident was regarded for what it was -- a tragic result of an enemy ambush. No further action was required or taken.

Months later, however, Time magazine published a story reporting that the Marines had gone on a rampage, wantonly killing innocent civilians to avenge the death of their fellow Marine killed in the IED explosion.

Using Time magazine's fallacious account of the civilian deaths, Pennsylvania's Democratic Rep. John Murtha went on a rampage of his own, telling every media outlet that would listen that the Marines had committed "cold-blooded murder." He first claimed that his information came from a briefing from the Marine Corps Commandant, but when that claim was disproved he admitted that his source was Time magazine.

Murtha's charges were broadcast far and wide, and before any investigation of the incident could get underway, the media joined Murtha in finding the Marines guilty of a massacre.

In the ensuing media firestorm that broke out, many news reports here and abroad compared the Haditha deaths to the infamous My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War.

Neither Murtha nor the mainstream media bothered to check Time's sources -- two known insurgent propagandists and insurgent-friendly Haditha residents living under the guns of insurgent killers who were the only authority in town.

It wasn't because the real facts were not available to any reporter willing to investigate the Haditha case, yet only one news source bothered to look into the case.

As early as May 31, 2006, NewsMax.com had begun to poke holes in the case, and from that time down to the present, NewsMax continued to report the truth about Haditha and defend the Marines who were innocent of the charges eventually leveled against them.

Yet all this time, the media and Rep. Murtha continued to peddle the insurgent lie that a massacre had taken place in Haditha, even though all murder charges had long ago been dropped in favor of lesser charges.

There was a crime, but it was the media and Rep. Murtha who committed it against heroic Marines whose careers have been destroyed and some of whose families were bought to the edge of bankruptcy defending their sons.

Thanks to NewsMax readers, who contributed over $500,000 for their defense, some of that burden was lifted.

And thanks to John Murtha and the liberal media, these Marines can now join my Dad's wrongly accused Secretary of Labor Ray Donovan in asking where they go to get their reputations back,

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About The Author
Michael Reagan, the eldest son of Ronald Reagan, is heard daily by over 5 million listeners via his nationally syndicated talk radio program, “The Michael Reagan Show.”
Finally
When will we start to bring these idiots up for treason? IF anything the lack of treason charges against the NY Times publishers and reporters and people like Murtha is the Bush administrations biggest abdication of duty and office

One thing is certain
Murtha will never admit his mistake, take responsibi;ity for his actions, or apologize to the Marines. His status as one of Backstabbing Boy will remain intact.

Murtha has No Honor
Thank you for concisely outlining this story, in this short space, so that we do not lose sight of the IMPORTANT details: what a congressman and a publisher was able to do, with malice and aforethought, to these brave Marines.

Maggie
Maggie's Notebook
http://maggiesnotebook.blogspot.com


robbie wobbie
dude, you are a fool. Scooter was pardoned after got lost in court. Bush stepped in after the court was finished. Does it not bother you that you are a flaming idiot? Does it not bother you that your pathetic attempt to smear Bush is THAT obvious? Post your address, I'll mail you a dollar, go buy a clue.

arrgh
replace above 'after got lost' with 'after he lost'

Not yet the final chapter..
"Lance Cpl. Stephen B. Tatum, who has admitted shooting civilians inside their homes as part of a pursuit of insurgents, was cleared and granted immunity to testify in further hearings related to the investigation. The move leaves only Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich to face charges in connection with the shootings on Nov. 19, 2005. As many as two dozen civilians were killed that day after a roadside bomb hit the Marines' convoy and killed a member of their unit."

To Robert
"I know you dont like Murtha...but Bush could have shut this thing down...he didnt. that doesnt bother you?"

Pardoning the Marines would have resulted in endless resentment, accusations of coverup, and further detrimental effects on mission accomplishment. In addition -- and I hope this was only a secondary consideration -- the political impact on the Republican Party would have been formidable.

Now, only two possibilities exist: either some or all of the Marines were guilty, in which case they SHOULD face trial and potential punishment, or they are not guilty, in which case the wisest thing to do was to allow the trial and let the facts and the verdict speak for itself.

Regardless, accusations of wrongdoing of this severity DEMAND investigation and even court-martial.

Of course, there is always the chance that justice will not be done, and that innocent Marines might be found guilty. But let's face facts: the odds are against it. Better to take the risk than to be assumed to be abetting and pardoning criminals in our armed services.

Tell me: must loyalty to servicemembers mean refusing to hold them accountable for their acts? Must it mean relieving them of public and legal scrutiny over their actions? Do you think this would satisfy the social compact between the armed services and the civilian society they serve?

If you said 'yes', Robert, then I sincerely hope that you are NOT an officer. Because if you think that, then you are part of the ethical problem.

Quick edit - strike one.
You wrote, "may be the beginning of the end for this whole sorry attempt to severely punish eight heroic United States Marines..."

My edit would have read, "may be the beginning of the end for this whole sorry attempt to punish eight heroic United States Marines severely..." Your version splits-the-infinitive. Kick your editor in the back of his/her chair and wake him/her up! *laughter*

Quick edit - strike two!
You wrote, "In a surprise development on the day Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum's court martial was scheduled to begin, all charges against him were dropped without explanation."

My edit would have read, "In a surprise development on the day the Marines scheduled Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum's court martial to begin, they dropped all the charges against him without explanation." You LOVE that passive voice, but reading it makes me WRETCH!!! *grin*

Quick edit - strike three.
Take a seat on the bench! *grin*

You wrote, "Full details of the incident on November 19, 2005 were supplied in great detail to the entire command structure the very night of the engagement,"

My edit would have read, "The Marines supplied full details of the incident on November 19, 2005 to the entire command structure the very night of the engagement," That wretched passive voice again.

Quick edit - strike four.
You wrote, "He first claimed that his information came from a briefing from the Marine Corps Commandant, but when that claim was disproved he admitted that his source was Time magazine."

My edit would have read, "He first claimed that his information came from a briefing from the Marine Corps Commandant, but when someone disproved he admitted that his source was Time magazine." Shifty character, if you ask me. Whom does this guy represent again? *laughter* Do THEY know about this guy being SO shady?

Guilty
They are all guilty of killing civilians wanton destruction and terrorizing the Haditha area. Thats WAR! Sure there were civilians present but I don't think they were innocent.

Robert/Hal
Robert/Hal asks "....you wonder why he pardoned/commutted Scooter and did not do that to the Marines?"

Hey bright boys, how can you pardon somebody for a crime for which they haven't been covicted.

It's still being investigated, you idiots.

Semperfi/par
There is no guilt associated with killing an enemy combatant or a civilian in this circumstance, at least not in a legal sense. They may have guilt feelings at the personal level, but according to the UCMJ they did nothing to warrant any assigning of guilt to their actions. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that they were guilty of a crime, and if not I would suggest that you clear up your use of the language.

To semperfi/par
Gen. Sherman once said "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it". This is only partly true, however, because if one stops trying to behave honorably then one certainly CAN make it far, far more horrible than it is already.

By way of illustration, I am personally responsible for causing destruction during war, some of which was, with the benefit of hindsight and analysis, probably unneccessary. However, I have never *wantonly* destroyed anything and I have little respect for those undisciplined persons who do.

So while I reckon these Marines innocent of any war crimes, based on my current understanding of the facts, I would not be willing to adopt an attitude of 'war is bad, so anything goes'.

It is also interesting to note that Sherman attained a great deal of unpopularity when he transerred his 'unrefinable' scorched-earth policy from the rebellious Southern states, to the Plains Indians.

SSG Anderson

Rick
Although it galls me to the core of my grammatical sense, it seems that the split infinitive has become standard. Alas, English is not a dead language, so it does undergo change over time.

Also, you wrote that your edit would have been (in strike 4) "..but when someone disproved he.."
This is errant. Prove is a transitive verb. By failing to supply an object, or at least a clear implied object (which your sappy prose does not support) you have proven your own lack of linguistic acumen.


Please advise, also, what is the verb in your "sentence" "That wretched passive voice again". Even your objection to passive voice is churlish. In this case, where the writer clearly chose not to emphasize the identity of the active agent, the passive voice can be used. See, I just used it.

So, wipe that smug grin off your face and look in the mirror. You are not the inerrant maven of all things grammar and style, despite how much you want to be.

I now understand that the "P" at the beginning of your name is both silent and invisible.

These Marines still need your help
Newsmax,com is still soliciting donations to help these Marines and their families. It's the least we can do for these incredible heroes who were willing to spill their blood for us, and were then betrayed by their very own government.

It came out last week that these were indeed political-motivated prosecutions, with accusations that Rumsfeld pressured top generals to prosecute in spite of evidence that there was NO wrong-doing.

TH FINALLY publishes an article dealing with this! I've been waiting for months. Shame on TH for not standing up sooner in the defense of these patriots.

Thank you, Michael Reagan.

The Media(MSM)
I SO hate the mainstream media it's become manic. I'm so filled with hate of this viral organ I find myself sweating at the sound of their misleading lies and exaggerated reports. Nothing I can remember in my 38 years of life can compare to the energy draining abhorrent, detestation, and repugnant hatred I have for this organization. I truly revile the mainstream media.

That doesn't mean I feel the same way about the people who populate its ranks. I pray for them all the time that they see the error of their ways. Don't get me wrong, I know what hatred can do to ones soul. I just feel, because of the true havoc they reek on America, that this form of hatred is justified.

Because I'm a Christian, (not that it shows in the first paragraph) I distinguish between the sin and the sinner. And the sin is dishonesty, and misleading word-craft. The sinners are well meaning, misguided women and men of God.

But because I'm a Christian, and I believe that their is a devil, Satan if you will, I believe he has, much like Jesus, his own church. And much like Jesus' church, Satan's church's mission is to spread his teachings, Satan's "gospel."

As whacked out as that might sound to you I draw your attention to liberalism. The church of Satan. Their sacrament is abortion. Their tithing is theft through government coerced taxation. Their priests are editors and publishers of liberal mainstream media organizations such as Pinch Sulzberger of the New York Times. And their church's are the newsrooms and government run education institutions all across America.

Let's say you don't believe in that Jesus vs. Satan crap. But let's agree that the liberal media believes the exact opposite of what Christians believe on almost everything. If there were such thing as Satan who would he side with? The liberal MSM or Christians?

For Maggie's Notebook @ 22:58 yesterday
That was obvious even in 1980 when he was videotaped asking for larger bribes.

To Rober
"Hmm so that logic was OK for the Marines but not for Scooter...?"

Did I say that? No, I did not. You have again created a strawman.

What you asked was:
"but Bush could have shut this thing down...he didnt. that doesnt bother you?"

And the answer is that it doesn't bother me that he didn't 'shut this thing down'. He SHOULDN'T shut this thing down. He should allow legal scrutiny to have its role over the actions of servicemembers.

How could you possibly infer that, because I think it appropriate for the Haditha accusations to be investigated and tried, that I must think 'Scooter' deserved an exception, or that I think a different logic should apply in his case?

Robert, if you are an officer, I hope this is not an example of your normal logical processes.

What I think about 'Scooter' has no relevance at all in a discussion about the treatment of Marines in the context of the Haditha case. If you want to obfuscate and turn the discussion over to 'Scooter', then I'm sure you can find a website where that matter is on-topic.

Please show me evidence of my 'inconsistency in argument' on this topic. Consider that a challenge, Robert.

But then, I don't suppose anyone who would violate the laws he freely swore to uphold would feel himself bound to debate in an honest fashion, would one?

Article 88.


JD's Handsome Son
"...For the remainder of the Iraq war,...that travel there to use soldiers as ploys for votes."

LMAO my guess is that you could not even get thru basic training you bloodthirsty, little wretch


"..aware of how they're being back stabbed by the Left, perhaps we'll get to see such proper retaliations..."

The troops are well aware that they are being stabbed in the back by the conservatives and Republicans ie no equipment, stop loss, lie after lie - watch how they vote in 08. You had best hope that the troops do not retaliate against you thank goodness they are professionals


When...
Marines are prosecuted because of their understanding of ROE and how it was to be carried out, then something is wrong. No, I do not adapt the war sucks anything goes. But as an individual measures dangers in his perception at that time, no judging from the sidelines counts.
So many other things to take into account as well. That an f-ing congressman and former military person( idon't give himthe title of Marine as he is a traitor to his own)would "convit them in the media for personal prowess or gain is not acceptable. I don't believe these Marines were guilty and as the saying goes, innoncent until proven, beyond a reasonable doubt.

When...
Marines are prosecuted because of their understanding of ROE and how it was to be carried out, then something is wrong. No, I do not adapt the war sucks anything goes. But as an individual measures dangers in his perception at that time, no judging from the sidelines counts.
So many other things to take into account as well. That an f-ing congressman and former military person( idon't give himthe title of Marine as he is a traitor to his own)would "convit them in the media for personal prowess or gain is not acceptable. I don't believe these Marines were guilty and as the saying goes, innoncent until proven, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Coffee260
"...Nothing I can remember in my 38 years of life can compare to the energy draining abhorrent, detestation, and repugnant hatred I have for this organization. I truly revile the mainstream media."

I could careless but why are you not in the military? You are young enough to serve. Put hatred to good use

"... I just feel, because of the true havoc they reek on America, that this form of hatred is justified. "

What wopuld Jesus say about that? Is hatred ever justified? It is your ilk who are truly endangering the country and the Constitution

Because I'm a Christian, (not that it shows in the first paragraph) I distinguish between the sin and the sinner. And the sin is dishonesty, and misleading word-craft. The sinners are well meaning, misguided women and men of God.

"..As whacked out as that might sound to you I draw your attention to liberalism...And their church's are the newsrooms and government run education institutions all across America. "

You truly need a good priest to talk with.

"...But let's agree that the liberal media believes the exact opposite of what Christians believe on almost everything. "

See here is the problem from what you have written: you are not a Christian - you are as much Christian, as Al Q and the other terrorists are Muslims. Simply put, both of you reflect poorly on basicly good religions

Robert and Hal
Just shut up and spare us your two-sided self-perceived brilliance. Your BDS clearly affects your thought congruence and you suck at connecting the dots.

Nee
"Just shut up and spare us your two-sided self-perceived brilliance. Your BDS clearly affects your thought congruence and you suck at connecting the dots "

LOL at a loss for words little guy? Congressman Murtha, Col., USMC (ret.) could well have made his point in a better fashion but please remember that his point was very valid - the troops are being pressed far too hard and if this breakdown of discipline happened we are in serious trouble and the issue needs to be addressed. For that I thank him.

To Robert
"But somehow it was OK with you that Bush intervened in the Scooter case...and it is OK with you that the Administration one which you claim "loves the troops" let quite a few of them languish in some cases in the brig...on charges that were pushed at the behest of Donald Rumsfeld."

Robert, I normally try not to use such language, but you are making yourself look a fool. Since I didn't say that it was OK with me that Pres. Bush intervened in the Scooter case, then you are demonstrably inventing your own reality.

And if you oppose letting those Marines 'languish in the brig' so that the allegations of criminal acts could be properly investigated and tried, then you appear to espouse the dangerous ideal of removing legal scrutiny and authority over the actions of sevicemembers.

"Nor would he have faced any more of less criticism from "anyone" about stopping the case against the Marines...then he did about commutting (and he will pardon) Scooter Libby."

Even if you would contend this, the fact remains that his pardoning the Marines and bypassing investigation/trial procedures, would have engendered controvery that would have a much greater impact on the mission in Iraq, than his pardoning of Scooter Libby would. So the assumption that he is already regarded as poorly as he possibly can be does NOT represent the only relevant factor in the matter.

"Although I have never commented on the case due to some professional commitments..."

Robert, please drop that shibboleth. Your professional commitments -- did you take them seriously and approach them with honor -- would prohibit you from speaking contemptuously of the President, the VP, the SecDef and members of Congress. But you do these things nonetheless.

Having publicly abandoned your professional scruples, please do not don them again as a cloak of respectability.

To Nee
"When Marines are prosecuted because of their understanding of ROE and how it was to be carried out, then something is wrong."

I disagree.

When Marines are falsely and slanderously accused by the media or by Congressmen, then something is VERY wrong. However, once the allegations have been made, then proper investigation and even trial of the allegations needs to be made, if only to firmly establish the truth of the matter to the civilian population. Frankly, were I accused in such a fashion I would rather DEMAND court martial in order to clear my name and show up those who falsely accused me.

Being a soldier myself, it is a tough thing to say but there are factors more important than even the temporary well-being of the servicemembers involved. This issue has a bearing on the national conscience, on the probability of successful mission accomplishment and on the successful implementation of national foreign policy.
We are willing to risk servicemembers' *lives* in the pursuit of foreign policy objectives. This business of subjecting servicemembers to trial in order to refute false allegations is sordid and unpleasant, but it is a necessity forced upon us.

Nee
Wobbie & Hal Drunkahue, the Poster Boys for Birth Control.

To Robert
"I was the one who made teh comparison to scooter and you have yet to explain to me how it was different..."

Pres. Bush's actions in the Scooter Libby affair CANNOT change the ethics of this matter of the Marines. You may obfuscate by bringing in your pet complaint, but it does not obligate me to chase your red herring.

"you say it is [different..."

Except for pointing out that the Haditha issue *directly* impacts perceptions regarding Iraq, I have made no such claim.

"There was no reason to keep those folks in the brig...."

I agree. But the impropriety of keeping them in the brig was not the issue. You were speaking of PARDONING the Marines, remember? Again you obfuscate by redefining the issue when your argument falters.

"The Iraqi people could not think worse of Bush...it just isnt possible."

And you have met every single Iraqi person. Further, since they are just foreign brown people, they have no individual differences or opinions, right? I spent two deployments interacting with average Iraqis, Robert.

"it would be trivial to the chaos the looting the daily bomb blast, the lack of power..."

It is okay to commit small wrongs as long as larger problems exist? I suppose rape is fine, since it is not as bad as murder.

"YOu neither see nor operate in such an environment..."

I didn't see you in downtown Baghdad when we were conducting patrols, Robert.

"The locals know..."

And real officers know that the locals' opinions are not the only significant factors in propaganda campaigns. The wider global audience who have no direct, personal knowledge are softer targets.

"You have not seen me speak contemptously..."

I have seen you do that on these boards.


"YOu think I do it here?"

Does the UCMJ only apply in combat theaters?



To Robert
I'm waiting on responses to some assertions/questions.

I said:
'Accusations of wrongdoing of this severity DEMAND investigation and even court-martial.'

Do they not? Should allegations simply be dismissed?

I asked:
'How could you possibly infer that, because I think it appropriate for the Haditha accusations to be investigated and tried, that I must think 'Scooter' deserved an exception, or that I think a different logic should apply in his case?'

I said:
'Please show me evidence of my 'inconsistency in argument' on this topic. Consider that a challenge, Robert.'

I asked:
'Must loyalty to servicemembers mean refusing to hold them accountable for their acts? Must it mean relieving them of public and legal scrutiny over their actions? Do you think this would satisfy the social compact between the armed services and the civilian society they serve?'

Robert, you do a fine job of ignoring the questions of others when it would harm your argument by answering. You are fooling nobody by dodging, however.

Don't worry, Robert: I'll try to be back tomorrow to demolish the other shibboleths you throw up in response.

Flagwaver
Sorry about the short post. My point is this.
War could be defined as a crime in and of itself. There is very little honor in it. Unfortunately honorable men are asked to go fight it. They do horrible things to win and maybe save the lives of their men. Are those Marines guilty of fighting a war? Yes. Do you charge them with war crimes? No. If I was in their boots in the same situation I probably would of done the same thing to save the lives of my men.

Hal & Robbie Drag a Dead Fox
through the Thread and every time the hounds run off in every direction! For the sake of sanity! Restrain yourselves! Scroll past these trolls or just give up and turn Townhall over to them outright! Make them invisible, like the P in front of Rick's name! Your responses are their lifeblood. Let them wither and die from lack of attention. Withered Lilly also! Scroll Down! Save Yourselves!

Thanks Michael
I admit I quit following the story and appreciate the update.

Problem with libs is that they feel everyone in the military is guilty of something. Oh, wait, you support the military. Which is it?

Libs are deceived.

Hey guys
Has anyone heard anything about GunnyG? He hasn't written in hi blog since March 18th. And I haven't seen him commenting on anything.

nanna
who???

Tallil2long
"Being a soldier myself, it is a tough thing to say but there are factors more important than even the temporary well-being of the servicemembers ..... but it is a necessity forced upon us."

Very well said thank you

Hal D
You know, the guy that regualrly kicked your liberal fanny. Guess that would cause a little amnesia, since that is where your brain is!!

ReCon USMC speaks .
Been there ReCon((MOS 0303 0321 ))) Marine speaks . After reading some these Clueless leftist ant War post really hate America .I am assured of two things unquestionably . One is You Liberals know as much about War as does Teddy Kennedy how too Drink and Drive .
And Two is If you trust , voted fore Teddy Kennedy , Bill Clinton ,Jimmy Carter , Al Gore or will vote for Oboma You want understand two-three -four -Five tup to Ten your still Clueless either .

Tallil2long
I must apoligize for my first post which I failed to define.
Gen. Sherman once said "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it". I think he was completely right when you look at the history of war. You are right that it makes one unpopular or seem overly cruel. In WW2 we dropped two atomic weapons, that was an act of wanton destruction.
That act was collateral damage. It was a horrible act planned in advance to inflict the height of terror on a civilian and military population. Do you charge the Commanders and aircrews with war crimes? No.
Some would argue, if you release all the dogs of war it is over quickly. If you release half the dogs of war then it is prolonged.
My point is I used guilt to define their actions not in reference to a court of law. Laws kind of go out the window when bad people are shooting at you.
I do not advocate war at all. That being said, if somebody starts a war you better be willing to finish it.

Semperfi/par
"...I do not advocate war at all. That being said, if somebody starts a war you better be willing to finish it. "

You are so correct. How do you feel about the Bush Regime starting a war and then developing a strategy that is only aimed at getting out of office without failure and leaving the troops stranded in the desert? Or worse yet, abandoning a war AlQ started and letting them go unpunished? The later is the most damning perhaps?

MDoggg
As much as Bush the torturer has tried to compromise the military leadership, he has not for the most part succeeded. Having been involved in both military and civilian legal proceedings, I can honestly say the military system is a bit more just. Don't forget, it has been the military defense lawyers walking and protesting the Bush Regime's legal treatment of Bush inmates at Gitmo and other locations

Thanks for the update
I see the armchair kibbitzers are out in force.

These Marines had split seconds or less to react to an IED exploding and killing/wounding their comrades. SGT Wuterich was the leader. They were taking fire from houses. He sent his men into the house[s] he labeled hostile to stop the fire. He did this to protect his men, including the wounded.

He is now the only one still charged. Why is that, because the evidence shows his Marines were responding to his orders. Now the trial for him will be, were these orders truly justified.

The tragedy is this should not have ever happened. It should have never reached the court system. SGT Wuterich might have been counseled by his Captain that he execceded the ROE if the Captain deemed he did. And that would be it. Except Rep. Jack Murtha, going off bad intel from Time, decided to crucify some Marines to score cheap political points against President Bush. My contempt for Murtha seems to reach new depths everyday.

Hal Donahue
I do not think your comments about the President are valid. I would not be so quick to judge the President yet when the war is not even over. You have to give him credit for trying to fight a war without inflicting as much horror or destruction as possible. You could call that noble on his part.
I do believe hostilities were started first by state sponsored terrorists that flew two aircraft into The World Trade Centers.
With the help of a few good Marines Alqada will get whats coming to them. There is no need to worry about them going unpunished.
BDS is treatable, just take off the tin foil hat.

Anna Puna
"...And that would be it. Except Rep. Jack Murtha, going off bad intel from Time, decided to crucify some Marines to score cheap political points against President Bush. My contempt for Murtha seems to reach new depths everyday."

I am fairly certain that Congressman Murtha, Col., USMC (retired), could care less about your comtempt BUT I do wonder why you lie? Lies like yours are what has politised the case and damaged the country.

Mdoggg
Are you insane?

Dear Hal
What have I lied about? Is it false that Rep. Jack Murtha admitted the whole basis for his 'cold blooded murder' charge against these Marines originated from the Time article?

The ball is in your court.

Semperfi/par @ 13:17
mdogturd's brain went when he sniffed some POL.

sue the times
sure would like to see the accused marines sue the times for malicious slander in publishing an slanderous article without checking their facts.

Robert/Hal
Robert/Hal proclaim in unison: "AS a matter of fact the pardon power of The President is absolute, Richard Nixon was never convicted of a crime."

You know, the more I read your posts, the more you grow in my estimation as being the biggest and most clueless hypocrits posting here.

Bush is not living in a vacuum. The men have not been convicted of any crime yet. He can't pardon them. Yes, he can call off the investigation and drop the charges, but can you imagine the outcry and lethal political fallout from Murtha, Clinton, Pilosi, Obama, McCain, Kennedy, Reid, Kerry, et al, the entire MSM, and thousands of idiots like you who are incurably infected with BDS. You'd all be screaming, "Coverup."

You know, Robert/Hal, it's not that you're just lying hypocrites - there's plenty of those posting here on TH. It's that you're incredibly STUPID lying hypocrits to boot.

I'm no Bush fan, but with morons like you he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Why don't you just give a break, put on your little admiral's hat and run around in the back yard making helicopter sounds while your mommy cuts the crusts off your PB&J sanwiches.

Semperfi/par
"I do not think your comments about the President are valid. I would not be so quick to judge the President yet when the war is not even over.""

Which war? We are in two not one and that may well be your misperception. Check the facts not what "you feel". Fact we invaded Afghanistan to throw out the Taliban and to destroy Al Q after Al Q attacked the US slaughtering nearly 3,000 people. After displacing the Taliban and pursuing Al Q, they managed to escape, repair and grow to previous strength. They now are in a position to threaten both Pakistan and Afghanistan\

Bush elected to invade Iraq with insufficent forces and then failed to provide adequate troops to enforce the peace and rebuild the country. Al Q was not a force in Iraq at the time of the US elective invasion

"You have to give him credit for trying to fight a war without inflicting as much horror or destruction as possible. You could call that noble on his part."

No that was smart

"I do believe hostilities were started first by state sponsored terrorists that flew two aircraft into The World Trade Centers. "

Wrong state and the terrorists were not allies of Iraq which was a secular state at the time

"With the help of a few good Marines Alqada will get whats coming to them. There is no need to worry about them going unpunished."

The mere fact they go unpunished proves the impotence of the Bush Regime if not the USMC

"BDS is treatable, just take off the tin foil hat. "

I could care less about that trash I do care at how weak the country and military has become

Anna Puna
"What have I lied about? "

This is a lie: ".. Rep. Jack Murtha, going off bad intel from Time, decided to crucify some Marines to score cheap political points against President Bush" plain and simple not even room for discussion it is a fact.

JD's Handsome Son
hey chickenhawk I served 20 years remember I thought you clowns knew all about be. You are truly pathic

JD's Handsome Son
hey chickenhawk I served 20 years remember I thought you clowns knew all about be. You are truly pathic

To MDoggg
If you've never sat in on a court martial, you should. Until then you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

I will say one other thing. If you wish us to believe that you would allow yourself and your buddies to be killed because you would not return fire against an enemy firing from buildings containing noncombatants... I would just ask you when was the last time you deployed into combat?

HAL, open the pod-bay doors
""What have I lied about? "

This is a lie: ".. Rep. Jack Murtha, going off bad intel from Time, decided to crucify some Marines to score cheap political points against President Bush" plain and simple not even room for discussion it is a fact.""

So you do agree with me that Rep. Jack Murtha[D-PA] went off bad information from Time and did crucify these Marines to score cheap political points. Or did you forget part of one of your sentences?

Excellent Column Michael
Thank you Michael Reagan for an excellent column. Being a Pennsylvanian I am ashamed to live in the same state as Congressman Murtha. Mr. Murtha is facing a defamation lawsuit for his ignorant & uninformed comments at the expense of those U.S. Marines. Hope he gets what he deserves. Time Magazine is just another example of drive-by media types reporting what they feel & think idealogically instead of reporting facts. Their revenues will continue to dwindle as other drive-by media outlets are now experiencing. Americans who want truth reported are figuring out the drive-by media cannot be trusted. For those who don't believe that read "Arrogance-Rescuing America From The Media Elite" by Bernard Goldberg, "Weapons Of Mass Distortion-The Coming Meltdown Of The Liberal Media" by Brent Bozell, & "Reckless Disregard-How Liberal Democrats Undercut Our Military, Endanger Our Soldiers, & Jeapordize Our Security" by Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson. Oh, and Semperfi/par Mdogg, Hal The Doofus Drunkahue, & Robert are not just insane. They're also ignorant of facts & just like to listen to their own loony ramblings. They're not worth your time & energy.

Haditha Marines and Murtha
Recommend that Rep. Murtha be charged with treason, stripped of all congressional powers and positions and be forced to pay, out of his own pocket, the expenses and penalties the wrongly accused Marines had to pay to defend themselves from this vicious liberas wich hunt.
Once Murtha is convicted and punished, we can start on the rest of the traitorous liberals in congress. Then we can do the same with the media. A free press is not a free pass to support the enemy and intensify the struggle to defeat radical Islam.

To MDoggg
"Because the MILITARY is COMPLETELY UNBIASED - and would NEVER protect one of their own!"

How do you account for the fact that the military has sent thousands of its people to prison (like Leavenworth) over the years for various illegal acts?

If you are determined to make demonstrably foolish and false statements, be my guest. Don't imagine that somebody won't call you on them, however.


Anna Puna
This is a lie, plain and simple not even room for discussion, it is a fact:

".. Rep. Jack Murtha, going off bad intel from Time, decided to crucify some Marines to score cheap political points against President Bush"

There is that more readable for you??



Bill
"...Recommend that Rep. Murtha be charged with treason, ....Once Murtha is convicted and punished, we can start on the rest of the traitorous liberals in congress. Then we can do the same with the media. A free press is not a free pass to support the enemy and intensify the struggle to defeat radical Islam. "

My, my you are a nice little fascist aren't you. Well while you direct your effort from your bunker, little guy, I will work to get Bush before the Hague for crimes against humanity as soon as he leaves office. FYI: there is no struggle against "radical Islam" there is a struggle against criminal terrorists who use Islam. Perhaps that is your problem?

Anna Puna
Better clarify even more:

Here is a fact this is a lie, plain and simple not even room for discussion:

".. Rep. Jack Murtha, going off bad intel from Time, decided to crucify some Marines to score cheap political points against President Bush"

There is that more readable for you??

JD's Handsome Son
"Quick, what years did you serve in the Air Force? Sometimes it's '68 -'72, other times it's '69-'73. And where exactly where you in Thailand?"

Robert/Hal was stationed in Bumphuque Thailand at the height of the Vietnam war in 1952. He piloted a bright red, pedal-powered airplane around the taxiways, wearing his little admiral's hat, for comic relief. He fought tenaciously, running into two dodo birds and actally damaging one. (He was awarded his purple admiral's hat and a NEHI bottle cap for his gallantry.)

He retired from the Armynavyairforce in 1950 because of post traumatic stress disorder brought on by Gen. George Patton, who, after listening to Robert/Hal discuss politics for a minute and a half, punched him in the face and stomped on his admiral's hat. Patton was awarded a silver star for the incident. Robert/Hal got his hat fixed.

But the incident left Robert/Hal permenantly scarred and delusional. He now lives with his mom in cornhole, Georgia, making a living as a grocery bagger. (The customers love his tattered admiral's hat and the NEHI bottle cap on his collar.)

Bob_C
Look make fun of my service all you like. Quite honestly it par for the course with your ilk.

Bob_C
Bravo Zulu! Zero CEP, fire for effect!

As for you Hal, it helps make your argument more persuasive if you take the time to write without a rush to publish. Hence we saw your fractured sentence because you just had to comment.

If I have printed something incorrect, please provide a link to back-up your statement. Until then, its all opinion and everyone has one of those plus a fourth point of contact.

Anna Puna/Bob_C
"...If I have printed something incorrect, please provide a link to back-up your statement. Until then, its all opinion and everyone has one of those plus a fourth point of contact. "

Actually it was not incorrect; it was a lie. Provide your own backup. I have neither the time; nor the inclination

Hal/Robert
And just what is my "ilk", Hal/Robert? One who recognizes a phony when he sees one?

Will 60 Minutes Recant Scott Pelley?
Last fall on 60 Minutes, prissy Scott Pelley interrogated Sgt. Wuterich, who retained his youthful composure throughout that ordeal. Watching it, I hoped Wuterich would explode and push Pelley's perfect face in. It was that disgusting.

When Wuterich gets off, like the rest of his buddies, will CBS do a followup? Hold your breath.

Bob_C
"...And just what is my "ilk", Hal/Robert? One who recognizes a phony when he sees one? "

Actually not quite; rather a deluded koolaid drinker seems most appropriate especially if you think Robert and I are the same person. I use my real name. Why don't you? Is it easier to be ugly, nasty and deluded if no one knows your name?

Hal/Robert
Sure thing, Hal/Robert.

Bob_C
"Bob_C writes: Thursday, April, 03, 2008 3:25 PM
Hal/Robert
Sure thing, Hal/Robert. "

Thanks for proving my point LMAO

Hal/Robert
OOOOOOOOOOH, you wascally wobbie!! You can just imagine how dismayed I am.

Bob_C
"OOOOOOOOOOH, you wascally wobbie!! You can just imagine how dismayed I am. "

Who cares little guy I worry about the innocent folks that wander in. You like I said we both have a pretty good idea what you are LOL

Hal D...
Spin your butt boy Murtha's slander how ever you want- bottom line- he falsely accused fellow Marines of war crimes.

I'm not afraid to tell ya that you are the emperor who has no clothes. To be an apologist for an elected official who slanders the troops, and then hold yourself out as such a big supporter of the troops is so patently outrageous, there are no real words for it. Especially when you wear your suppossed military service on your sleeve like a badge of honor that no one else has ever earned.

You have no honor. You're a whore. You're a weasel. Die in a fire you lying, hypocritical POS jackass.

badboy
Hal/Robert are liberals. The rules don't apply to them.

Bush LIED and took us to war. All the liberals who were calling for Hussein's head (including Clinton) long before Bush took office were "misinformed."

Bush tricked them into going to war, that lying bas***d. All the liberals who voted to go were tricked by an idiot. (what kind of morons does that make those liberals?)

Murtha did't LIE. He "misspoke." He was not trying to villify the troops. He supports the troops as he denigrates them.


Hal Donahue
Do you know which state is sponsoring the terrorist? How is our military impotent? They have not lost any battles. You served twenty years in what service? Are you any relation to Phil Donahue?

Hal D
Your "fact" about why we invaded Afghanistan is incorrect as regards Al Qaeda. We did not expect to destroy Al Qaeda by invading Afghanistan. We intended to eliminate one of Al Qaeda's key state sponsors, but we were fully aware that not all Al Qaeda were even in Afghanistan in October 2001, that many who were there would flee, and that Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden did not represent the sum total of the transnational wahhabist threat to begin with.

Since I was actually at Central Command in the planning stage in September 2001, you would do well not to pretend to know more about our objectives in invading Afghanistan than I do. You are wrong on this -- as you are when you insist that we are in two disconnected wars instead of two campaigns that form fronts in a unitary war on terror. You are, of course, at liberty to voice your opinion that this might as well be our current state. But you are wrong about the development of the strategy to fight the GWOT as it is being fought. It was comprehensive and unified, explicitly designating geographically defined fronts (homeland security, regime change of the chief state sponsors of terrorism), a financial front, a law enforcement front both at home and abroad, a direct action front (black ops against individual terrorists), and an "information" front -- all of which you would know if you had actually had any involvement in it. Obviously you didn't.

wobbie/DOOFUS


HALD so hows your HERO JOHN SMURTHA feeling after try to courtmartial some of your own military comrads and now finding out that they where found NOT GUILTY. HALD quote I cant beleive you vets on here bashing one of your own war heros JOHN SMURTHA HA HA HA Bet You feel PATRIATIC huh DOOFUS

wobbie I know you arent talking about the military with your MILITARY REJECTED ARSE

Wobbie did you ever get MISS MCPATCHES fixed up after you and HALD pajama party in your MOM basement, HA HA HA

HALD gas up the cropduster , wobbie

wobbie
Heres another FACT for ya. ooops I MIS REMEMBERED that LIBS dont listen to facts.

If I recall you LIBS never even read the INTEL REPORT that was sitting right in front of them. What did Hitlery say, my staff read it. LIBS were so quick to jump on board they didnt care because they thought their voting base might get mad if they didnt defend he country. 6 out of over 500 members read the INTEL REPORT and you LIBS come on here daily spewing that BUSH LIED

I think after these last couple of weeks we know who LIES..----LIBS and the DRIVE BYS have proven it/

If you want to bring up all those DEM leaders who stated that SADAAM had WMDS we can

Please tell me what your DO NOTHING DEM LED CONGRESS is going to do since they have been telling us that they run things. Seems to me that since DEM run Congress who do you think ought to be the blame at how America is being ran.


LIBS love victims and sounds like you fell for there lies but dont try and convince us that you are not a LIB because we know that yoyu are full of it when you tout MCSHAME

I am tired of LIBS blaming everything on REPS when they themselves tell us DAILY THEY ARE IN CHARGE. Please can we do something for the country besides trying to put SPORTS FIGURES in jail. No wonder their rating is lower than BUSH




Mr. Reagan asks:
--
"...where they go to get their reputations back"?


They don't need to.

As Rep. Murtha - who has proven that he is no longer entitled to be called a U.S. Marine - knows full well, in the words of Chesty Puller:


"Remember, you are the 1st Marines! Not all the Communists in Hell can overrun you!"

--

To Robert -- you lied
"I dont understand why you defend that."

That is because I am not defending Pres. Bush's treatment of Scooter Libby, though how you pretend otherwise.

"As for Iraq. I have not met every Iraqi... probably met more Iraqis then you..."

You admit, then, that you misspoke by claiming to know how Iraqis feel -- you don't, you only know a tiny handful. As for meeting Iraqis -- Robert, I performed foot and vehicle patrols downtown virtually every day for two years. You claim to be a Navy officer -- we both know you work in an office. Green Zone or Victory?

"What is important is...that neither has had an impact on any of the people in Iraq"

Again, real officers know the global audience of propaganda, who have no personal knowledge of events, are the ones most susceptible to false allegations of this nature.

"The UCMJ only applies if I idnentify myself by name and rank..."

Is that what Article 88 says? This time you have lied outright, Robert:

'Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.'

By hiding your identity you only avoid the *consequences* of your UCMJ violations. Like a juvenile delinquent with a spray can, you deface that which you do not understand or value, then run away giggling to hide from the just recompense of your deeds.

"you must know that, that is why you dont either."

SSG James E. Anderson
HHC 36th Engineer Brigade
james.edward.anderson@us.army.mil

Unlike you, Robert, I am neither a poser nor a habitual violator of the UCMJ. I need fear no action of law by revealing my identity.





Tallil2long
Don't waste your time with Robert/Hal. We learned long ago the he's a phoney who's been outed so many times you'd think he'd have brains enough to give up the charade. But he's a liberal. Lying is a way of life for them.

The Collapse of Neo-Con Fiction
Surely this entire story is all about the collapse of right wing fiction?

We now know that these civilians were killed by the US marines, not by an IED as claimed in the beginning. That has been admitted.

Are these marines heroes who acted in the best tradition of the US armed forces? You may think so, but anyone who takes potshots at kids and women then lies about it, is not really anyone's idea of heroes surely? If they lied about how the civilians were killed, what makes their statements about insurgents hiding behind civilians plausible?

The marines shot some of these people in their own homes, lied about it, and are now having the cases against them dropped. Simple. Great day for justice.

The thing about foaming republicans is that they can never get their own stories straight. "Collapse of liberal fiction", is in the same vein as "Saddam's WMDs", "Mission Accomplished", and "Economy in Great Shape".

Robert/HalD
When those two are on the thread, there is nothing to see anymore. Except, maybe, for all those LOLs or ROFLMAOs on every one of their stupid posts. Shows they are aging, though: my 16-yr old tells me that using this abbr. isn't considered cool anymore.
Why, oh, why all you knowledgeable, intelligent people allow them to turn an interesting discussion into the kindergarten scuffle?

Please come back, Robert
I want to learn more about the UCRJ (Undocumented Code of Robert's Justice).
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