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Wednesday, May 13, 2009
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Economic Equality Is Neither Just Nor Fair
by Michael Medved
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Liberals love to emphasize their deep commitment to “social justice” but their obsession with economic equality produces policies that count as neither just nor fair.

Only in a fantasy world would the reasonable, impartial and evenhanded distribution of society’s rewards ever result in roughly equivalent incomes.

If individuals got paid strictly according to their contributions to the economy then the outcome will be radical inequalities, every time. When the left insists on “closing the gap between rich and poor” they’re not pushing for justice but rather promoting unjust favoritism for the least productive and competitive members of society.

Consider an imaginary instance in which a homeowner hires a crew of workmen to paint the four walls of his perfectly square living room. The painters don’t get along at all during the job so they come to the householder and demand separate payment. If they each contributed equally to the finished product – if each the painters, for instance, covered one of the walls – then it makes sense for the guy who hired them to pay them equally.

But what if one member of the crew devoted three full days to the job, while the others spent less than a single day? Advocates for equality might insist that all painters receive identical payment, since they all spent time some time on the same project. But paying the workers the same fees when they worked vastly different schedules would produce unfair discrepancies in terms of their hourly wages.

And then there’s the even trickier situation that arises due to inevitable differences in levels of skill and productivity. What if three painters each clocked exactly the same number of hours on the job, but one of them managed to paint two whole walls, while the others completed only one wall each? To pay the participants equally in this situation would amount to a gross injustice –attaching far less value to the two walls painted by the one worker, than to the single walls painted by each of his colleagues.

Since even identical investments of time can bring sharply different consequences, justice and fairness demand very different rewards. Justice requires that contributors on different levels receive unequal payments. Equal rewards, on the other hand, demand unfair treatment to the most skillful and productive participants.

Liberals may argue that higher goals than fairness require equivalent rewards, even if individuals make very different contributions. They can make the case that “closing the gap between rich and poor” will bring about greater social harmony, since workers who are paid identically will feel less envy or resentment toward one another. According to this logic, “savage inequalities” (to use a favorite phrase of the redistributionist left) can lead to social instability, or even violent revolution. But that rationale breaks down if slackers receive the same money as pluggers—thereby providing even more obvious grounds for bitterness.

The left also preaches the need for compassion—urging special consideration for those who, through no fault of their own, can’t produce enough to fulfill their own needs. But asking for disproportionate rewards for the unfortunate argues for kindness or charity, not for justice. Forced compassion-- in the form of confiscatory taxes and bureaucratic initiatives-- crowds out the healthy human impulse to assist those in need. Generosity represents a marvelous human quality but when the generosity is enforced by weight of law it undermines other values – private property, hard work, pride and self-respect. Few of us feel virtuous because the government takes part of our weekly paychecks while the beneficiaries of official programs (like the idiotically ill-conceived “Food Stamps” bureaucracy) seldom feel grateful for the largesse they receive, or determined to end their dependence. The very idea of “entitlements” works against the old notion that public assistance should representative a temporary lift rather than a way of life.

The battle of ideas surrounding the radical elements of the president’s economic program to some extent amounts to a battle over language. Barack Obama and his followers describe their budgetary increases as “investments,” for instance, while Republicans see “wasteful spending.”

With the upcoming struggle over a new appointment to the Supreme Court, conservatives must never surrender the crucial word “justice.” The Obama agenda may pursue many things – greater regulation, a stronger social safety net, a leveling of the inequalities between the wealthy and the destitute, but it hardly amounts to a pursuit of fairness.

Leveling, after all, generally involves lowering peaks rather than lifting valleys. To some, the resulting equality may represent an end in itself, but in a world of hugely unequal talent, virtue and effort, that goal has nothing at all to do with justice.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Consumer is king
Your money are 'votes' for goods and services. You can earn votes by providing goods and services for others.

The real injustice is social security, medicare and public schools which force you to give up the fruits your labors for undeserved programs and institutions.

Capitalism is freedom, plain and simple. Only when government skews the field is it unfair in any way. When someone rails against the free market just remember what they are really opposing.

PS. How does one become rich in a capitalist society without helping others? (aside from bottom feeding trial lawyers like John Edwards)

Economic Equality = Liberal Hypocrisy
How much money does George Soros GIVE away?
Mr. Theresa Heinz-Kerry?
Jay Rockefeller?

Strange thoughts
They don't believe in God, but they believe government can have Godlike abilities in determining the exact amount everyone deserves.

They hated Bush, but they are willing to empower an entity 5 fold that will eventually be taken over by another Bush.

The core common sense behind real capitalism and real republic democracy is diffusion of power. There isn't anything that is too big to fail in real capitalism. In a republic democracy the people keep the power. Natural law: Individual, Family, Community, Local, State, Federal. Democracy by itself is actually a horrible idea that leads to mob rule. Or in reality, entrenched aristocracy in the guise of a democracy (see Europe). Creating a system that allows the diffusion of power is the only that matters/works. Anything else eventually leads to a ponzi scheme ("too big to fail").

Mudved spends WAY too much
time on this subject and makes it way too complicated just to explain to us what most (liberals included) already know... that economic equality is a farce, no matter what system is in place.

This column though is on par with his usual drivel and just as clear (like mud). Reading this is sort of like taking a cheese grater to scratch that unreachable itch. Painful and still cant quite get the spot.


Mudved spends WAY too much
time on this subject and makes it way too complicated just to explain to us what most (liberals included) already know... that economic equality is a farce, no matter what system is in place.

This column though is on par with his usual drivel and just as clear (like mud). Reading this is sort of like taking a cheese grater to scratch that unreachable itch. Painful and still cant quite get the spot.

Sorry if this is a doublepost...browsers having an attitude today.

Ok trolls!
Lets here it!

Hal? Where are you? I know you want to say something stupid.

Lilly Ledbetter Trial Lawyer Dream Act
A case in point of "liberal obsession with economic equality" is the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act recently signed by Obama. This Act allows pay discrimination cases to be brought against employers--decades after the alleged offense! I do not need to spell out for anyone here the devastation this brings to business and the gift this represents to trial lawyers.

An excellent summary can be found here:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/wm2216.cfm

Equal Opportunity

Most everyone supports "Equal Opportunity".

Only Liberals support "Special Opportunities".

To accomplish this, Liberals believe its the governments function to punish good behavior and reward bad behavior.

Fairness
Ever since Obama started preaching his "institute fairness" speeches I've been saying that whenever the government attempts to legislate fairness they just shift the unfairness from one demographic to another.

Social Justice
means equality of results. And, since the only way to achieve equal results is to impoverish everyone. There is more room at the bottom of the barrel and you can never get everyone to the top. So, beat and cheat the productive and impoverish us all, then we'll have social justice.

Still no libs?
Come on smart guys? Tell us how stupid we are to believe this.

Strawman
Way to go, Medved. Attacking an Obama plank that doesn't exist (at least, not in the way you describe it).

Forget about your (odd) painter analogy. That's not what Obama is talking about when he talks about income disparities and income inequalities.

He's talking about the fact that extremely wealthy people (and businesses) can take advantage of tax loopholes and end up in a lower EFFECTIVE tax bracket than working people (who can't take advantage of those loopholes).

That's neither just nor fair. The game is rigged against the middle class. Closing those loopholes doesn't DENY wealth to the uber-rich, nor does it chill captialism or innovation. Obama is merely UNskewing the playing field, not skewing it.

The painter analogy
The author's painter analogy could be used to make another point. In this case, each worker is assigned an equal task. In the real world, however, we are trending away from identical tasks. We have been entering the knowledge economy, and jobs have become highly specialized and highly technical.

Accordingly, it has become challenging to structure compensation that rewards workers performing unequal tasks with any sort of economic equality.

Huh?
In what world is one part of the debate one in which economic outcomes are relatively equal? Under the current situation the top 1% controls 1/3 of the wealth in the country. Arguing for a more progressive tax scheme is not even vaguely like arguing for a situation in which there is basic economic equality.

Medved also seems to assume a fictional correspondence between earning and merit whereby, to take one example) bankers are worth more than 10 times as much (or possibly he means work 10 times as hard as) soldiers. I think this undervalues.

There are reasons for letting the market determine wages, but the idea that it is to acheive a situation in which the people who work the hardest get the most is just silliness.

Ken, Lon
Did Obama not, in his own words, state that he thought spreading around the wealth was a good thing? Did he not, in his own words, state that he felt one of the failures of the Civil Rights movement was not addressing income redistribution? Why else would he make such statements?

Ken, this statement is just too juicy to no address directly;

"He's talking about the fact that extremely wealthy people (and businesses) can take advantage of tax loopholes and end up in a lower EFFECTIVE tax bracket than working people (who can't take advantage of those loopholes)."

Would that be like, I don't know, getting an advance on a book BEFORE a tax increase on the wealthy that YOU pushed during the campaign comes into effect?

Another note, what is with you libs and always trying to bring in class warfare? You used the terms "wealthy" people, and "working" people. News flash, everyone who does something that someone is willing to pay money for, is a working person. I am so sick of the idea that the only people who are a "working" class are those who make under a certain amount of money.

And anyone with half a brain knows that businesses don't pay taxes, only people do. To be more precise, only the customers do.

Social-Justice is a SCAM.
This is about power over the people, plain and simple.

When the producers owe the non-producers, how long do you think the producers will produce--not long if they are smart and most producers are smart.

As more producers become non-producers more demand will be made on the remaining producers creating even more non-producers, eventually the system must fail.

Ken Lon Baradiel
The obvious falacy in equal economics is in the usage of the word FAIR. Who decides this standard? By the stanadard given by current administration, the usage tends to lean into making the current system MORE FAIR, IOW unskewing it as Ken suggested. However making it MORE FAIR accross the board cant happen. One group is going to get slighted however its sliced.

Obviously every class wants to keep more of their own money. Coming to terms with whats fair is another thing. For instance the death tax is about as UNFAIR as any tax. Lowerclass could care less about it because it has no effect on them.

However, a large percentage of middleclass fall into death tax category and have seen their lives go from middleclass to lowerclass simply because a family member died.

Hardly fair to middle class. Does Obama see this tax as a rich only tax that needs to be implemented or does he really understand the real world implications of how this tax effects the middle class (the class he claims to want to be helping 95% of USA and all)



Another analogy
How about a sports analogy. I've always thought since athletes insist on being in unions, they should be treated like other unions. Unions don't believe in anyone making more than their brother, so let's pay all athletes in a given sport the exact same, based on years of service. This means that Lebron James would make the same as every other NBA player with the same number of years in the league, no matter what the talent differences might be.
Think the player's union would go for that? Think liberals would think it was "fair"?
I doubt it.

western bondbeam
Why are you asking me this? I am in agreement with you on this fairness BS, though I think you were harsh on the author for really no good reason.

I think the death tax is wrong, from both an economic standpoint, and as a point of decency.

I am no expert on the death tax, but I would imagine it makes it harder for families to keep businesses in the family, or to take advantage of inheritance to start a new business venture or what have you.

Not just that, it amounts to, "sorry for your loss, now give us money."

Baradiel
Relax. I didnt ask a question. I made a statement. Figured you were part of the discussion with Ken and Lon so added your name.

I may be harsh on Medved but lets face it... the guys a moderate. Hes no conservative .

Actually I have a little league game to get to so dont have time to respond now anyway. Maybe later tonight.


Vale Lost

Values
Most religious people know certain things.
1 God is the creator and author of all things
2 There will be a day of reckoning
3 That we have rules to live by
4 Those rules work when used

For a very long time in this country and indeed the rest of the world, the progressives have told us that God is dead, that the old rules don't matter, that as in Sodom you should do what you want. As a result we have a Country and world where we legalize the killing of the most innocent and protect the most evil. We have children having children in an epidemic. We have a ever expanding government sucking the life out of us. We have in some places an 70% drop out rate. We have failed education system.Gay Marriage. Drug addiction, sex addiction, alcoholism, divorce, pedophilia, murder, fraud, deceit all are commonplace.

We have experts trying to come up with plans and strategies to correct this mayhem, but we can't say a prayer at school. Does anyone see this as I do, kinda insane.

western bondbeam
Gotcha. Enjoy the game!

Baradeial western bondbeam
Do you really not see that given the distribution of wealth in this company it is possible to spread the wealth around without going anywhere near equality economics as western bondbeam puts it, or equality of outcome as Medved does.

Medved is arguing against a strawman. The kind of socialists he is addressing once existed, but they are not a serious part of the discussion in the US at this point. (They were never that strong in the US even at their strongest.)

Do you really not see that even if the top income rate was pushed way higher than Obama is proposing, say 50% that would still not produce equality of outcome?

Do you have arguments that address Obama's actual policies rather than this cartoon version?

Lon
"Do you have arguments that address Obama's actual policies rather than this cartoon version?"

Do you have arguments that address his actual words?

Don't Worry - Be Happy
As much as the present is beginning to look like the 70's all over again, the speed of communication and mobilization, plus alternative media such as the web and Fox, will cap the longevity of Obama's socialist juggernaut at two years.

It may be hard to get him out of the White House in 2012, but Congress is heading for a major shakeup as the economy isn't going to rebound in two years.

The folly of "fair" will become abundantly clear when unemployment goes, and stays over 10% and inflation moves up into double digits too.

My worst fear is Republicans nominate an unenergetic centrist such as Bob Dole in 96.

I think
all socialists, leftists, statists, or whatever else one cares to call them are simply very shrewd politicians.

The old 20/80 rule is exploited by politicians to get elected and to gain power. It is stated that 20 percent of the people come up with 80 percent of the ideas. It is also stated that 20 percent of the people create 80 percent of the wealth and 20 percent of the people pay 80 percent of the taxes. In a nutshell, 20 percent of the people pull the cart and the other 80 percent essentially get a free ride.

So, in light of this philosophy, if politicians want 80 percent of the votes (and who among them does not) they must appeal to the unimaginative, unintelligent and uneducated. They must also pitch their ideas to the slackers, the lazy and the unmotivated.

I have said it before, but it bears repeating. Socialist/leftist, statists care nothing about fairness. They care nothing for the poor. They lip-sink all this “compassion” BS because that’s what it takes to get the vote of the 80 percent losers who contribute little to nothing to society.

Freedom
When citizens are forced to be equal, they are not free.

When citizens are allowed to be free, they are not equal.

I'll never have the resources of Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, or, for that matter, John Kerry, John Edwards, or Teddy Kennedy - but, given the choice, I choose freedom!

Baradiel
Do you really not see that one can spread the wealth around more than we do now without spreading it around so that everyone has an equal amount?

That is what he said. I find it hard to believe you are so unfamiliar with the English language that you actually believe that what Obama says indicates that he believes there should be equality of outcome.

So if it is not that quote of Obama's that is the source of the view that you are attacking, then what comment by Obama am I supposed to be explaining?

So yes, I do have arguments that address his actual words. Why don't you?

Lon
I argued that equal economics is a farce, that its unachievable and basically not even liberals think it can be achieved.

WBB 1st post... "just to explain to us what most (liberals included) already know... that economic equality is a farce, no matter what system is in place"

I agree with Ken on the strawman. Medved is pulling stuff out of thin air and makes poor arguments that simply make conservatives look silly and stupid and as I said, liberals dont actually believe it can be achieved...so calling them out on it is stupid.

Medved would have been better to show how Obama ignores fairness completely when involving the rich, which is why I brought up the death tax.
To make the point that liberals view the term fairness as a double standard.

If Obama and liberals were really concerned with making taxes "fair", the death tax would also be on their radar as one to abolish. You cant argue fairness and justice in pay, taxes etc and then leave death tax out of the equation.

graduated taxes
Here is how it works:
If you have lots of money (actors,politicians,inheritors of Family Fortune, marrying wife of dead ketchup mogul) then the top rates don't affect you. You can stop working and live the good life from now on.

If you try to build up wealth by slowly increasing your income over time you will hit the WALL at the top tax levels. All of a sudden the government takes half of what you make. It effectively keeps regular guys from making the kind of wealth most Democrats already possess.



Normal
People's heights are distributed according to a Normal distribution, the bell curve. Speeds in a 100 yard dash are distributed according to the bell curve. Intelligence is distributed according to the Normal Distribution.

No, we don't want incomes to be equal. But, we should expect in a "truly free" economony that they would be distributed according to the Normal Distribution.

But, that's the problem. In our Capitalist System wealth is not distributed according to a Normal Curve. It's highly skewed with a small number of people receiving thousands of times the income of the average.

This is NOT a natural system. This kind of income distribution is a result of the system being "fixed" by Wall Street and K Street.

And, now, Obama is trying to adjust the distribution to make it "look" more fair and natural.

But, Obama, you can't dictate how fast each of your runners runs the 100 yard dash to produce the normal distribution. If too many run too fast, you don't add weight to make it come out the way you want it to.

Also, you have to identify the basic problem with the capitalist system that produces the skewed wealth distribution. Fix that. Make the system more fair and more productive. You don't just take the money and "spread it around" to create a normal distribution. We need someone wiser than to propose that solution. That's just silly.

RB and normal
RB you are ridiculous. Speed and height are not distributed according to the bell curve. The bell curve is merely observational and has no effect on a person's traits.
Why should we "expect" in anything in a totally free market. You give no reasoning or justification for you statement.

more for RB
You also totally neglect to factor in people's intelligence, WISDOM, ingenuity, DETERMINATION, leadership. A person who has spent his life slacking and has no skills, shuns hard work, and then has a family with three kids is not going to be well off. Unless you can point to some ABSOLUTE foundation for your reasoning, you are merely spouting drivel.

Funny, Isn't It
I love to hear politicians discuss 'fairness' and 'equality' and spout platitudes about 'fighting' for the little people. So why is it that they are all millionaires or more? I've never seen a poor politician; there aren't even any in the middle-class. If Obama and others of his ilk are truly so concerned about social justice, why don't they sell their mansions, private jets, jewelry, furs, and fleets of automobiles and give all of that money to the downtrodden? For that matter, why don't they forego the $540 shoes, private schools, Good Friday pizza parties, European junkets, $100/lb steak, Beasts, AF1 photo ops, personal assistants, and personal beauticians and donate that money as well? Multiply those dollars by the Obamas, Rockefellers, Pelosis, Kennedys, Gores, Kerrys, Reids and all of the other wealthy elite and you have one hell of an income; we could all be rich! Isn't it funny that nothing like that ever happens. If these folks believed what they preach they would all live in trailer houses, ride on buses, and buy their clothing at thrift shops. It seems to me that the Socialists are interested only in redistributing the money of those who work for a living, never their own. Isn't that odd.

BTW RB
You also neglect the fact that Obama has no legal authority to do what you suggest. You illustrate by your intellectual laziness why inequities happen. If you were to devote more time to study the government of this country rather than positing a view that comes from ignorance you would be more capable of understanding what is just and good, which would elevate all. Rather you favor injustice and violation of the rule of law, which drags us all down.

Lon
Look at it this way.

A small company with earnings of $1.5 million a year. They have up to 10 employees. They provide decent wages for all with healthcare benefits and retiremnt. CEO earns 80K a year the board earns 60K ea a year with remaining employees earning decent wages in the 40-45K.

Overall, like most small companies, they earn a living and pay a few employees and keep things churning. Every penny that flows in from income basically flows out in wages, expenses etc... Nobody is getting filthy rich here.

Now the CEO dies. One living relative, his son in the business on the board (one earning 60K a year). His fathers estate with home property business assets is valued at $2.5M on paper.

Now because of this inheritance, the son suddenly OWES the government A LOT OF MONEY. Under Obama $1M exempt, that leaves $1.5 M at 45% owed or apprx $675,000 in tax even though all of the wealth has ALREADY BEEN TAXED several times. The values are based on accounting practices, not true resale value or liquidation value.

The only way the son can possibly pay the tax is to liquidate or sell off. He cant borrow it. IF he gets a buyer he may be forced to sell well below market value. If no buyer comes along, he has to liquidate or auction.

In the end, there is a good chance all employees are out a job, the son included and still cant pay the full tax to uncle sam. Suddenly a producing company that hires people etc is no longer in existance.

Multiply this scenario over and over and over again. This is what the death tax does to hard working middle class families all over the USA.

Obama is against raising the exemption from $1M to $5M. Raising it to $5M would help many or most of the small companies as described above.
Is he really about spreading the wealth....or just about putting money back into government budgets?

Baradiel
Game was okay. We lost by 1.

Yeah my point about the estate tax is basically that if Obama was really truly interested in keeping the playing field fair, estate tax would be also abolished. This tax often times hurts lowerclass and middleclass worse than the rich. Its all about getting money back in the governments budget. Its not about wealth redistribution from rich man to poor man. Liberals use that as a politial ploy to keep votes coming in.

It boggles my mind how anyone can argue progressive tax schemes as a way to introduce fairness into the system, and still claim estate tax is decent, fair and good for all.

western bondbeam
You are right I missed your first message. I probably read it through, but when I saw your response to me I did not go back to see if you had said anything earlier. My objection on this thread has been to Medved's straw man, and you did in fact call him on that.

There are obviously serious debates to be had on Obama's actual policy proposals. The idea that the estate tax could lead to the need to liquidate non-liquid commercial assets is one worth considering. It could be addressed, say by spreading out the period of payment. The problem with addressing the problem is that when the call is made to find some of these businesses (for some reason the argument is usually made in terms of farms) none of them seem to actually exist.

The middle class people affected by the estate tax seem to exist only in arguments against the estate tax. And since fictional characters don't vote, their influence is minimal.

That does not mean that the consequences of the estate tax should not be considered, but they should be considered based on its actual influence. I personally would be happy to inherit a 2 and a half million dollar company. If I had to sell it and get by on 1.8 million I get after taxes that is a blow I can live with for money earned by someone else.

There are reasons for trying to keep family businesses intact, but they do not seem to really support the idea that the world with the estate tax is unfair to the people inheriting multi-million dollar businesses.

Lon at 11:22
Lon do you not see that nothing gives you or anyone else the right to determine the "spreading around of wealth"? Please point me to that directive and who has given it. Is it man? By what authority does he reach into another person's life and take from him and give to another? Who has the right to be the arbiter of justice? Why does someone having less than another person matter?
Until you can by a process of justice, where it can be proven that it is wrong for someone to be ultra-wealthy, you are merely advocating lawlessness, in that you want to take from someone without legal merit. Your social justice is ethereal and has no foundation.

"Spreading the wealth"
is just another term for "Gimme!"

Lon what do you do for a living? Private or government employee? Are you doing all you can to improve your earning capacity, and provide for your old age or the proverbial rainy day, or do you expect my kids to support you? Do you resent that your employer has more than you do (because he has more responsibility than you do), or do you appreciate that he has the gifts and is willing to take the necessary risks which enable him to employ you at a rate which in turn enables you to support yourself and you family?

If you work for the government, scratch the rest of the questions after the second. :p

Lenard
Not quite clear what you are missing here. People gather together into communities and form governments that regulate certain aspects of society. The American government was formed under the basis of the US Constitution. This Constitution allows for the collecting of taxes including explicitely the taxing of incomes. The members of the American government are chosen either through election of the citizens of the relevant districts, or through appointments by people elected. And it is by this process which tax rates are set.

It seems unlikely that you are unaware of any of these facts, so I am not sure exactly what you are asking. And since this is a strictly legal process I am not sure on what basis you think this implies lawlessness.

I suppose you could be arguing that the whole nature of government is illicit. That would be a weird view, but you are welcome to it and I will just be glad there are so few people who share the view. Otherwise it does not seem like you have a position that could be held consistently. If there is a government taxes need to be collected in some form to support it. And then the question becomes what form the taxes should take, not the ludicrous one of what authority there is to collect taxes.

AliveinHim
Not entirely sure of the significance of the questions but I don't see any harm in answering them either.

I am a private employee rather than a government employee, although the ownership of my company is a bit convoluted. I am not doing all that I can to improve my earning capacity because there are other things important in life besides maximizing ones earning capacity and, for example, I would not sacrifice my children's present interest in the name of earning maximization. But I make a reasonable income and am not likely to be on welfare any time soon. I expect I will do more supporting than being supported in my life.

As I suggested above, I do not have an employer who fits the description you give, so there is noone in particular to resent. But I don't resent people either for making more money than me or for making less money than me. I am not sure why you think resentment should be the issue in determining the best tax code for the country. Why do you think the relevant attitudes can only be driven by resentment?

Medved
Why do you start every column with some stupid generalization about liberals?

Lon
Taxes are raised for revenue, not social tinkering. It's that simple.
Government is to protect life, liberty, and property. To take from one and give to another with no due process is a perversion of justice.

fred
So he's lying? Answer..NO. Fred why do liberals despise justice? And responsibility? Why do liberals get morally outraged, when according to them we all die anyway, so what does anything matter? You are confused and in your confusion wreak havoc.

Lon
Its always a crapshoot in estate taxes as these scenarios can be played out so many ways. My only hope is that in getting your 1.8M (it would be interesting to see the statistic on real world liquid value vs the governmental taxed value) that you dont hang out your employees (they just might be family) to dry in selling the estate. They may lose their health care and their pensions, plus will have to start over in fiding a job.

There is simply no valid argument on the validity of this tax. This wealth has already been taxed over and over again several times?
Its thievery by any rational standard. It hurts people more than it helps and it essentially puts money in governmental budgets at the expense of many individuals, often time regular working middleclass folks.

I'm switching parties.
I'm going to be a Democrat. I want my free stuff & I want it now! As a Democrat, all I care about is ME, my comfort, and as a Democrat I don't care home many dead babies you make & I don't care if you allow people to marry livestock, I just want my FREE things!

What is the purpose of life?
Is life the accumulation of material, the accretion of money, the dominance of the strong over the weak?

Is that what we're here to do?

western
Sorry you lost the game! Perhaps you could appeal to osama that things weren't equal, so the game should not count. ;-)

You illustration of the small company is right on. I fear that far too many small companies either have or will fall victim to these stupid taxes.

Here is another example of excessive taxation. Perhaps it happens elsewhere, too, but in Minnesota, there is a higher sales tax on cars, farm equipment, etc. than on other goods, also usually including another bump from the county. The difference is supposed to go toward road repair/maintenance. What hacks me off is that if I sell that car, tractor, etc. to you, the state will charge sales tax on it, again. This cycle repeats every time that vehicle is sold. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!


Equality to liberals
means that nobody can make even $1.00 a year more than you do. The defunct Russian Soviet Union tried equality, but Obama's version of the American Soviet Union won't fail because he's smarter than Lenin and Stalin. Everyone who makes a profit is screwing someone out of money according to Obama. If any of you noodle-headed liberals believe that producing something for a profit is screwing someone, let us know how you can think like that. Maybe you can tell us how Acorn gets 8 billion dollars without producing a single thing. If this equality, where is my 8 billion dollars?

Hey Fred,
Medved didn't start his article with a generalization of liberals, he started with what is known as a truism. Liberals actually do believe that equality is just and fair when it is neither. If this isn't true, tell us why, and don't generalize.

Lenard
You say, "Taxes are raised for revenue."

True, but pretty useless in telling one what types of taxes one should put into place to raise that revenue. That is why we have given certain representatives the power to determine what is the optimal (or the closest to optimal that one can come up with through democratic means) way of collecting those taxes.

Certainly for the purposes of raising revenues a progressive sytem makes the most sense because one can only raise money where money exists.

western bondbeam
I have never been clear on the idea why counting the number of times something is taxed is supposed to be significant. Sales tax is a tax on money much of which has already gone through income tax. But frankly I would rather have my income taxed 1% 5 times that 25% once.

And, of course, the giving of property from one person to the other through inheritance is a transaction as much as any other. So the idea that this is thievery while other forms of taxes is not seems pretty odd.

The other claims would be significant if true, but there does not seem to be any evidence it is. As I have noted, opponents of the estate tax have had a very difficult time finding these companies that are going under or laying off workers because of the estate tax. All taxes have consequences. So does all spending. So does running up huge deficits. Decision making is finding a balance, and the estate tax is one that raises a significant amount of money with less dislocation to the economy than most of its alternatives.

The consequences seem to me to be the right place to debate the estate tax. But I think it is a battlefield on which the opponents lose. Which is why they spend so much of their argument on abstract nonsense or on fictional cases. The real cases don't support repeal.

Gunny to Fred
A truism?

Gee, Gunny, which "liberals" are you talking about, my grandmother, who voted for Obama, my next door neighbor, who decided against voting for McCain, wants small non intrusive government and is against gay marriage but is pro-choice, my cousin, who is gay and for gay marriage but voted Republican?

Tell me, wise one, which "liberals" are you talking about?

These pathetic generalizations are all you conservatives have left.




by the way, Gunny
None of these people, including myself, a dedicated life-long liberal democrat, are "obseessed with economic inequality" or even think it is a good idea.

So, which liberals are you and Medved moaning about?

Bruce
Yeah Michigan car buyers get the screws everytime the car gets sold, it gets charged sales tax again, and then again and again. The sales tax is not higher though than standard sales tax on other goods.

If you use heavy equipment to load products for resale, it gets charged sales tax on purchase of the equipment, if you use it to produce the same product you are selling, its not taxed.

Like Payloaders in gravel pits. They use it to process sand and stone no equipment sales tax, but as soon as they load the product on a truck for a sale....taxed. They do allow for percentages but good luck trying to keep equipment from over using its nontaxable portion. They just might pinch an operator if they can prove it was undertaxed for loading resaleable material.

Yeah we should have asked for a 5 run lead handicap based on Obama equal outcome policies. They had a couple of players that could wack it to the fence. Our team consists of 12 kids 8-11 all first year player pitch. We were down by 9 at the last inning. They walked in 8 runs before getting 3 outs. They put in a thirdstring pitcher to give him some experience being up by 9. The last 35 minutes was torture. Had he been able to throw in some strikes, we couldve had a game winning homer as the bases were loaded the entire inning. He wasnt throwing any hitable balls though. He did end up with 3 strikeouts. Some kids swing at anything. New baseball rules via Obama. All 3rd stringers get 6 strikes before being called out. Evens up the playing field.

one day of life
I won't presume to answer for Gunny, but since I agree with his stance, I'll weigh in.

If you are a "dedicated life-long liberal democrat" as you profess, you would have to admit that the majority of liberals are indeed obsessed with an insane notion of economic equality and think that it's a good idea. This is based on my experience, living in a state that is so liberal that they think electing Al Franken just because he ran as a democrat, is a good idea, so I hear it many times, daily!

I applaud you, your grandmother and your neighbor for realizing that it isn't. I also applaud your cousin for voting for what I can only assume were his core beliefs and/or convictions.


Lon
Any government that starts taking money from one person to give to another is a perversion of government. That is nothing but theft under the guise of legitimacy. One might well say that because one ethnic group decides they hold power it would be okay to force others to work for them.
As far as the federal government is concerned nothing, NOTHING in the Constitution gives them authority to raise taxes for anything other the enumerated powers given. There has been no authority granted for Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, or any of the numerous sophistries employed to take money from one and give to another. Please, fell free to show the effective clause. It's not there.
This is not a democracy. How hard is that? It may be that you and your ilk want your socialist agenda, but your wanting it, does mean we have to give it. It's called rule of law. You may consent to such things, but you may not do so for me, thus the fed is still legally limited to Coinage, Immigration, Post Roads and Offices, etc. Am I being ridiculous? No I am saying that without going through the Amendment process, there are numerous agencies my money is being taken for where the power has not been granted.
Why do you leftists ignore rule of law? Your consent is not enough, the Constitution still holds unless enough CONSENT to something different. This is not the same as one party getting more votes than another. DO you not understand the plain language of the Constitution?

madison/federalist 17
Allowing the utmost latitude to the love of power which any reasonable man can require, I confess I am at a loss to discover what temptation the persons intrusted with the administration of the general government could ever feel to divest the States of the authorities of that description. The regulation of the mere domestic police of a State appears to me to hold out slender allurements to ambition. Commerce, finance, negotiation, and war seem to comprehend all the objects which have charms for minds governed by that passion; and all the powers necessary to those objects ought, in the first instance, to be lodged in the national depository. The administration of private justice between the citizens of the same State, the supervision of agriculture and of other concerns of a similar nature, all those things, in short, which are proper to be provided for by local legislation, can never be desirable cares of a general jurisdiction. It is therefore improbable that there should exist a disposition in the federal councils to usurp the powers with which they are connected; because the attempt to exercise those powers would be as troublesome as it would be nugatory; and the possession of them, for that reason, would contribute nothing to the dignity, to the importance, or to the splendor of the national government.

madison again
In the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any. The subordinate governments, which can extend their care to all those other subjects which can be separately provided for, will retain their due authority and activity.

Lon
What the f&*k are you smokin' dude?

Everyone would be OK with being taxed 1% 5 times rather than 25% one time, but since you obviously haven't noticed, that's not how it works in the real world! The other explanation is that you won't be receiving any inheritance from anyone and you're jealous. Believe me, if you had to pay that tax, you wouldn't like it.


federalist 41
That we may form a correct judgment on this subject, it will be proper to review the several powers conferred on the government of the Union; and that this may be the more conveniently done they may be reduced into different classes as they relate to the following different objects:

Security against foreign danger;
Regulation of the intercourse with foreign nations;
Maintenance of harmony and proper intercourse among the States;
Certain miscellaneous objects of general utility;
Restraint of the States from certain injurious acts;
Provisions for giving due efficacy to all these powers.

what powers?
Madison below speaks to the fallacy that Article 1, Section 8 is unlimited.

''But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars.


Lon
The estate tax victims are not uban legends.


87% of small businesses do not make it to 3rd generations in part due to generational tax policies in place.

In polls 70% of those asked veiw the death tax as bad tax policy.

86% of all taxable estates filed in 2001 were $2.5 million or less in size.

According to the Joint Economic Committee report, dated December 1998, the cost to comply and collect the tax is equal to the revenue raised.

Less than 2% of the government's revenue is generated from the "Death Tax." In 2001, it was $23.5 billion, just 1.4%

The Death Tax was initiated in 1916 to fund World War I. It was maintained in the tax code through the 20's and 30's to help prevent the concentration of wealth. Since that time, anti-trust laws have eliminated those concerns, but to date, the Death Tax remains intact

In a study done by The Center for the Study of Taxation, it was determined that if estate, gift and generation-skipping taxes had been repealed in 1971, by the year 1991 there would have been 262,000 more jobs, $46.3 billion more in GDP and $398.6 billion more in capital.

The tax is due 9 months after the date of death, and is payable in cash.

natural law
Setting aside the controversy concerning the 14th amendment, what was the thinking of the 39th congress?

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So roughly 80 years after the federal convention, the understanding of the purpose of government was still the basics: protect those rights inherent in man. Life, liberty, and property, and in society use of the legal system to protect those rights.
Madison early on in the convention mentioned how already some were seeking a "leveling", and that it needed to be guarded against, and as he was one of the main authors of the Constitution, and his plan was originally more national than federal in form, we can see that the framers did not include within the Constitution any provision for "wealth transference".
So AGAIN, as there has been no amendment delegating power to the federal government to tax for purposes of wealth transference, it is all illegal. Why has it not been stopped? Well when one party(not political, but participatory) goes outside the rule of law, the only option is for the other to do likewise. So far many have avoided that, because we do not desire bloodshed and hope for a return to legal government. So some may be confused and it consider it as tacit assent to the illegal actions, when really we are hoping for a return to the rule of law.

Bruce
"If you are a "dedicated life-long liberal democrat" as you profess, you would have to admit that the majority of liberals are indeed obsessed with an insane notion of economic equality and think that it's a good idea. "

I also have experience with Minnesota; I grew up there and almost all of my extended family still live there. Minnesota is now famous for electing whackos (Jesse Ventura, Michelle Bachmann, just to name a few) but it has always been a unique state in terms of it's politics. My father was a life-long Republican who worked for the government most of his adult life, I was very aware of Minnesota liberalism.

I hate stupid generalizations - they don't shed light on anything, they just condense what should be rational discussions into bumper sticker slogans and fruit-throwing.



Just Curious
Medved also said

"Liberals love to emphasize their deep commitment to “social justice”"

Is that supposed to mean that all conservatives don't care about social justice? If so, I would be offended if I were conservative.

one day of life
points taken.

I don't know whether or not you were here while Jesse was Governor, but if one really examines his term, he really wasn't bad. Colorful and an oddity, yes. Did he do some stupid things, yes, but I really think that those stupid things hurt him more than the people of MN.

At least he honored his campaign promises by not doing what he said that he wouldn't do and doing what he said that he would. I believe that he also stopped a lot of wasteful spending bills, using a rubber stamp of a pig when he vetoed them. This. of course, put him at odds with the media. Bottom line; I don't think that the state was any worse for wear because of him and good or bad, he sure put the state in the national spotlight.

Stay well!


Thanks, Bruce
I wasn't living there while he was Governor, but I'm there quite a bit for family and friends. Your view is interesting, and I have to say that among the people I know there I never saw any intense dislike for him.

I have to admit, though, that when I see him on Larry King I still scratch my head.

An afterthought
I think that your ability to separate the hype from the reality is truly interesting, and in a way you exemplify the streak of independent thinking in Minnesota that also applies to liberals. (Remember, the first liberal Democratic party was the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, and was closely allied with rural, grass-roots populism.)


Joe and Bob earn the same amount
Joe spends his money wisely, gives to the poor and saves the rest.
Bob gambles and drinks and parties his away. And doesn't pay his bills.
Are they equal outcomes?
Outcomes aren't about equality they are about wisdom. We don't need the government invading our day to day choices.
Joe and Bob are free to be wise or foolish.

Joycey

escept that real life isn't usually so simple. It's more like that Joe spends his money wisely, but also likes to party away.

YOu said,

" We don't need the government invading our day to day choices.
Joe and Bob are free to be wise or foolish. "

Well, then, will you be as vocal about keeping the government out of one's reproductive choices, or their choices about how they choose to die, or weather they will help a loved one who has made that choice? Do you think the government should stay out of our choices as to how we medicate ourselves, what drugs we choose, where we choose to travel, and whether a pharmacist can be free to withhold morning after medication when a woman has been raped?

What is your small government about, Joycey? Seat Belts? Work training programs for the homeless? Medical plans for those who are soincapacitated they barely leave their own rooms?

Could you be specific?

Joycey
Joycey... the government is entitled to protect people by law (there are laws against murder and abuse). Therefore, the government has the right to dictate whether a woman chooses to KILL her unborn child or KILL themselves when they grow old or ABUSE themselves through drugs. Sorry, but recieving money from the government is not law.

Medved
Why don't you leave to the liberals to explain
how liberals feel about economic "equality."

I would give you the answer myself, but it
doesn't happen to be something we are espousing,
so I can't.

Dear Mr Medved
Let's see... my boss earns $108,000 a year, but she works 11 months.

I earn $67,000 a year, but I get two months off.

Who's being screwed here? And who's more productive?




Hey Baradiel
"Ok trolls!
Lets here it!

Hal? Where are you? I know you want to say something stupid."


Seems you beat us to it. Are you here or their?

TO RICHARD
rE: UR ? (SEE # 76)
Not enough information e.g.
1. ur boss invested 1 M in the company
2. he is a lot smarter than u
3. he works from 5am to 10 pm every day (I had a business and worked up to 75-85 hrs per week and brought home less $ than as an employee)
4. u completelly missed the point! Go back to the beginning of the article and start reading again!


Kudos
to David M, and Kats for their postings

Del
Let me ansa U in simple terms.

Why RU assuming that my boss Z an "investor"?

And why RU assuming that my boss Z male?

As U wrote,

"U missed the point"
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