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Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Honest Numbers on Iraqi Deaths Deserve Honest Context
by Michael Medved
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An authoritative new study of civilian casualties in the Iraq War shows that opponents of that conflict have wildly and consistently exaggerated its human costs.

Based on previously secret figures from the Iraqi Health Ministry, as well as numbers from the British Group “Iraq Body Count” and its own investigation of hospital records and death certificates, the Associated Press concluded that 110,600 Iraqis died since the beginning of the American Invasion. This contrasts with irresponsible and unscientific estimates from various sources that often put the casualties as ten times that high.

For instance, the best known previous estimate of Iraqi deaths came from a notoriously unreliable “household survey” conducted by investigators from Johns Hopkins University and published in the British medical Journal, “The Lancet”. It concluded that 601,027 Iraqis had perished by July, 2006. An even less credible survey, by the British marketing research company, Opinion Research Business, concluded that more than a million Iraqis had died (of a total population of 29 million) by August, 2007.

The new Associated Press report used previously undisclosed data from the Health Ministry, supplementing this total (87,215) with deaths reported from other sources. As reporter Kim Gamel explained: “The AP reviewed the Iraq Body Count analysis and confirmed its conclusions by sifting the data and consulting experts. The AP also interviewed experts involved with the previous studies, prominent Iraq analysts, and provincial and medical officials to determine that the new tally was credible.”

All this careful work yielded far more persuasive numbers than the hysterical reports always favored by the anti-war movement and deployed as part of its effort to depict the war as one of the great genocides of human history.

But while the Associated Press deserves credit for its honest and responsible work, their account of the new totals still failed to place the figures in any meaningful perspective. For instance, the analysis failed to note that the overwhelming majority of the 110,600 dead met their demise at the hands of terrorist violence or sectarian strife; only a tiny minority (perhaps 10% or less) of all casualties occurred at the hands of the Americans or other coalition forces. The AP account does take note of the fact that the Health Ministry figures show that 59,957 of their reported 87,215 deaths (or more than two thirds) occurred in 2006 and 2007 “when sectarian attacks soared and death squads roamed the streets. The period was marked by catastrophic bombings and execution style killings.” The story might have added that the Americans perpetrated none of these mass killings, and instead fought heroically to bring them to an end.

In another area, the description of the new calculations lacked an essential element of context, never noting that other recent conflicts in the region produced far more horrendous death tolls. In the Iran-Iraq War of 1980-88, for instance, more than 200,000 Iraqis died – a much higher percentage of a significantly smaller overall population. That conflict also claimed the lives of at least 1,000,000 Iranians.

Meanwhile, the little noted Algerian Civil War (in which Islamist extremists have challenged the government since 1991) has claimed at least 150,000 deaths, and probably more than 200,000—nearly all of them civilians butchered in the same random, brutal and often suicidal attacks responsible for most of the bloodshed in Iraq. With the Algerian and Iraqi populations essentially the same, the rate of death in this grisly but seldom-reported conflict has been even more horrendous than the blood-letting in Iraq.

Of course the Lebanese Civil War of 1975-1990 produced the most devastating results of any struggle in recent Middle Eastern history – with an estimated 250,000 dead, and at least 500,000 more suffering permanent disabilities. In a nation of less than 5,000,000, this loss of life exceeds the Iraqi casualty rate by more than twelve to one.

The relevance of these other conflicts ought to be obvious – since they all reflect (as does the Iraq War) the singularly brutal, blood-thirsty nature of local conflicts involving Arab-against-Arab, and Muslim-against-Muslim. In each of these wars, the most significant American role (which is very much the case in Iraq) involved efforts to stop or to minimize the bloodshed.

The new figures on Iraqi casualties, when placed in the proper context of who did most of the killing, and with reminders of even bloodier struggles of the recent past, show the hollowness and falsehood of hysterical denunciations of the US effort to bring down Saddam Hussein and establish a functioning democracy in the heart of the turbulent Middle East.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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The party of Alfred E. Newman
So, if I help 100 dangerous killers break out of prison I might be charged with a prison break, but I share no moral responsiblilty for the aftermath if the killers go on a rampage and kill 1000 people? Then, if someone suggests that the killers actually killed 10,000 people, I should just say well, it wasn't that bad, it was only 1,000.

Then I can also say that well, there were other bloodbaths much worse, therefore in the words of Alfred E. Newman, "What, me worry?"

America set this bloodbath into motion, an administration fully aware of the danger. Go back to the warnings of Colin Powell, who feared the consequeneces of our needless invasion of Iraq.

Instead of your propaganda tour with Prager, et.al., you and Cheney and Bush ought to go to Iraq to apologize on your hands and knees.

Wow...
Thanks for putting this "war" in its rightful context, Medved, and here I thought the invasion and occupaton would last mere months, as leading neocons had stated.

You can't possibly believe that this occupation will ever end with a lasting "democracy" left on its own, can you??

The people of the Middle East have been warring upon each other and invaders since pre-biblical times, that is what they know, and that is what they will do...forever!!

How libtard stats work:
Look at "gun deaths". In order to gin up full blown hysteria they focus on children. What they DON'T tell you is that to get their stats up they count people up to age 21 as "children" and worthless waste of air gangbangers offing each other as "children".

The image they want you to get in your mind is some cute little 5 year old gunned down in the playground when the death rates by firearm for minors NOT involved in gangs has averaged about 300/year. Tragic yet, but NO reason to gut the Second Amendment. MORE 2 year olds fall forward into 5 gallon water buckets and drown that each year.

Statistics will say anything if libtards torture them enough.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

THE DEATH OF A MEXICAN ARCHEOLOGIST
A president who hates America's past shakes hands with a Mexican archeologist who loves his country's past and the man dies within 24 hours from flu like symptoms. What could it mean? Click my name and read my piece: "Obama's Trip to Mexico and the Deadly Swine Flu" for the answer.

Royinoslo ....
Somewhere in that cobwebbed brain of yours, I'm guessing your analogy makes sense to you. The rest of us are dumbstruck by your lack of cognitive thinking.

Now, if you've ever read a prospectus, you will have read something similar to, "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results." However, in Iraqs case, the past performance of Saddam Hussein was very indicative of what he would do in the future, i.e., slaugher hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

So, we could sit idly by and let him grow in strength, continuing to butcher anyone who was not in agreement with him, or we could listen to the myriad of DEMOCRATS (the list will follow) who stated that he was an imminent threat and worthy of deposing.

Keep your head in the sand, Roy, the jihadists will love your a$$ sticking up in the air. It makes for an easy target.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

As promised, qoutes from Dems 1
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D - MA), and others Oct. 9,1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

As promised, qoutes from Dems 2
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." >- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

As promised, quotes from Dems 3
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9,2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

As promised, quotes from Dems 4
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Hey Roy, put these quotes in your pipe and smoke 'em!!

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Better off under Saddam?
In Iraq, 'Everybody knows somebody killed by the war'
By Corinne Reilly | McClatchy Newspapers
April 20, 2009

BAGHDAD — Amir Jabbar doesn't know how many of his friends have been murdered since the Iraq war started six years ago. He stopped counting sometime back in 2007. The numbers just got too high, he said.

"Maybe 10. Maybe more," the 31-year-old parking lot attendant said, shrugging. "It's too many."
Most of them were blown up in bomb attacks, he explained. A few just disappeared. They've been gone so long that he figures they aren't coming back.

"In my neighborhood, Sadriyah, it was very bad," said Jabbar, who stopped to talk on a busy Baghdad street corner as he ran errands. "Maybe I know more who died than most people, but everybody knows somebody killed by the war, of course."

Six years after the U.S.-led invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, America is preparing to start leaving Iraq. If all goes as the Obama administration hopes it will, the democracy that America installed will take root and blossom, violence will continue to decline and Iraq's ethnic, sectarian and religious factions — still vying for their say in the country's future — will reconcile with one another.

That's the best-case scenario, however, and if it ever comes true, it won't be for some time.

What America will leave behind in Iraq, at least in broad terms, is still unknown, but Iraqis already are living with what's sure to remain the war's most personal vestige: the absence of the dead. Almost no Iraqi has escaped that trauma.

No comprehensive, reliable civilian body count exists, but so many people have been killed in the past six years that it's nearly impossible to find an Iraqi who doesn't know someone who died violently, either because of actions by American troops or, far more commonly, in the widespread bloodletting that the invasion triggered.

Frog
I for one appreciate your list of statements by Democratic politicians regarding Saddam and Iraq. However, I'm afraid it won't do any good because people like Roy go into a coma when it comes to dealing with facts. Once they get something into their tiny little minds, they won't let go (latest example: Olbermann continuing to repeat the NYT's lie that KSM was waterboarded 166 times, a statement that was debunked the same day it came out).

But I'm going to copy/paste your posts into a document for future reference.

Thanks.

Does the actual number really matter?
It depends on which report you want to believe. I've googled it and there are a number of different numbers.

On the low end, it's about 150K and on the high end about 1.1M. The vast majority killed through sectarian violence...not by the US military.

Does the Left exaggerate? Of course they do. They can't resist...their lies just SOUND so good! And their rationale is that even if it's a lie, it "should" be true.

Jeffrey, interesting question
Just as pertinent a question would be, before the current war, how many Iraqi's new someone killed or beaten by Hussein's henchmen? I was not an original supporter of the current conflict, but we can't put the genie back in the bottle. The question to be answered now: what is our best course of action considering the current conditions? I detest the thought of emboldening our enemies by backing down now.

Another question: for those who clamored for an exit strategy from Bush, what is Obama's exit strategy for Afghanistan? What is our exit strategy from Germany and Japan? Haven't we had a military presence in both nations since WWII? Don't we still have a military presence in South Korea, going on 60 years now?

The "exit strategy" card was/is nothing but politics.

Tod Kozeluh
Lexington, KY

Economic sanctions killed more
On May 11, 1996, President Clinton’s Secretary of State Madeline Albright was asked by a television interviewer for 60 Minutes whether she was troubled by the fact that Clinton-supported economic sanctions had resulted in the deaths of half a million Iraqi children. Albright replied, “It’s a hard choice, but we think it’s worth it.”

Why is the "Left"
being blamed for an extrapolated estimate that Johns Hopkins came up with, and that the Lancet published? Their figures did not come from the Democratic Party or any other left-leaning political organization.

Could this be a case of blaming something, ANYTHING, on the Left, for no good reason??

Was predicted
Those with intelligence and understand about how BushCo/Cheney operated and how they stood to gain monetarily knew that all of the NeoCon predictions were wrong.

6 days, 6 weeks, but definitely not 6 months?

Give us 6 more months. OK, now give us 6 more months. Not yet, just give us one more Freidman and the US will be looking good.

110,000 Iraqi deaths? How DARE you inflate that number. It is nowhere NEAR that number. -- Oh, OK, but 110,000 isn't too bad, and besides, it is well under the estimate of 700,000. **

** never mind that 700,000 is much more likely. It is just too odd that 110,000 is now acceptable. How predictable. All this from the party of "torture is now OK, but don;t you dare torture us"

The Left's idea of an "exit strategy"
By the end of 1973 all US combat forces had left Viet Nam. The US presence left consisted of mainly advisors and trainers. So Nixon kept his promise to achieve "Peace with Honor." That is until the 94th Congress - the last time the Democrats held a 60 seat majority in the Senate - did the incredible and treacherous by stopping all funding to the South Vietnamese Government. This meant that the South no longer had bullets for their guns and could no longer defend themselves.
As soon as this became apparent the NVA launched a full combined arms offensive that defeated the South. The results were the US Embassy evacuation and the murder of millions of Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians at the hands of their new masters, the Communists.
Since this is the only “exit strategy” the American Left has ever approved of.
Like their fellow travelers throughout the world, they have the blood of millions on their hands.

"exit strategy"
I'm afraid Iraq and Afghanistan will be the latest "sucesses" of the Left.

Long, hard slog
intheminority,

You have a problem, it's called attention deficit disorder. Rumsfeld said back in 2003 it would be "a long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan. No one in the Bush administration said it would be a cakewalk, that's spin by liberals who hope conservative's memory spans are as short as theirs.

As for the deaths, how many died under Saddam? How many wives were raped as their husbands were forced to watch? How many people were tortured and killed by a family of sadists whose bloodlust knew no bounds?

Somebody in the CIA gives Khalid Sheik Mohammed a swirly and suddenly it's torture but when Saddam used electric drills to bore holes in his victims bones that was just his right as leader of the Iraqi people?

You have lost your mind along with the rest of your ilk. You have no moral compass at all and couldn't reason your way out of a wet paper bag.

The deaths of civilian Iraqis in this war are painful but just as many, if not more, would be dead if nothing had been done to depose Saddam. Where is your outrage about the torture of people like Daniel Pearl? Where is your outrage at the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier held for more than a year by Palestinian terrorists?

You say Bush and Cheney profited by this. How? Why didn't you specify? I'll tell you - you didn't specify because you couldn't - you don't have any proof, just your twisted lies.

Wrong, Wrat Wranger
"...they count people up to age 21 as "children" and worthless waste of air gangbangers offing each other as "children"." Actually, the main count they quote counts 'children' up to the age of 25! Youth, dontcha know. It's sillier than you imagined.

The Point is Liberals Lie
They seized on the estimates of 500K or a million and used them as facts in their argument even when the extremely dubious methodology and the leftist political bias of the originators was pointed out to them. I've spent endless hours refuting the high numbers to little effect. Next, they blame the USA for all these deaths when the great majority are by terrorists and remnants of the former government. They also ignore the number of people Hussein had and would have killed. They seem to want him back.
An even clearer example is ten years ago during the time of the sanctions. They blamed the sanctions for a half million deaths among Iraqi children(dubious) and called for an end to them. When war became imminent, the very same people shifted gears and whined that the sanctions weren't given time to work without blinking an eye.
Their strategy has been lie piled upon lie for nearly twenty years of our struggle with Iraq. My policy now is not to believe them if they told me the sun was going to rise in the east.

Critical difference
Tod and Nick,

Whatever happened to "The buck stops here"? A lot of Dems were wrong about WMD, but their finger wasn't on the trigger. Bush's was, and he screwed up the call. You seem incapable of distinguishing the difference between an executive with the power to make war and politicians on the sidelines.

APOLLO
I clicked on you name and read your blog. Please go to Michelle Bachmann's latest blog published yesterday. You two must be related or you both are taking LSD together. Get a copy of the Diagnostic and Services Manual of the American Psychiatric Assoication and look up the diagnostic criteria for Paranoia. I'm sure you'll enjoy reading about yourself! Take comfort in your delusions.

the left takes over another war
Between 1973 and 1975, the dems in Congress "ended" the war in Viet Nam and because of their policies, millions were murdered in SE Asia. I wonder how many deaths they will be responsible for THIS time.

I stand corrected!!
Thanks Robert! I thought it was 25 but I went low because some troll with too much time on his hands and nothing productive to do (highly redundant I know) would dig up the facts and turn it into a "gotcha moment". Funny because the real numbers work better for us.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Wrat Wrangler
I'm a fellow NRA Life Member. Greetings! Amazing what the left will believe. Remember when Clinton said a child was killed by firearms violence every nine minutes? The alleged death toll came to 38,000 kids per year, so far above the entire total gun death rate it was ridiculous. Everyone on the left bought it, though.

No Accountability
Mr. Medved seems to feel the US (or conservatives)are vindicated that only 110,000 deaths were casued by the Iraq war, and mostly by insurgents not the US.

But what casued the insurgency? The US invasion with poor planning unleashed this mess. Oh..and what about the number wounded? This is way over 100,000 people.

Conservatives seem to feel since less people were killed in Iraq than other brutal wars, its not so bad. Since we are not as brutal as Saddam we are the good guys.

The question we should be asking is..what are we responsible for? How many innocents did the US kill and wound? What is the the total cost in human life and suffering. All this is washed aside so you can blame liberals of inflated numbers. Yet the right-to-life group feels no responsibility or shame or even want to know the reality of what we do. You people do not want to hear anything that will tarnish your patriotic fever.

Lancet's approach
probably was to include NATURAL (rather than only war-related) deaths in the total, which would increase the numbers to the point of meaninglessness.

To put that in perspective, an equally-valid claim could be made that (undivided) India suffered from 32 million deaths during WW2.

All I Need To Know . . .
. . . about the Left's morality is that if they were in charge, Saddam would still be running his rape rooms, dropping people into shredders, and executing hundreds every Thursday. They seem to admire the 'stability' of his regime.

Why don't we worry about American's
There have been more American's murdered than Irag and Afganistan people.Does our media tell us about that. Illegal's have killed an average of 12 American's a day since 9/11. Don't our people count for something or do the Liberals and the Left only worry about the rest of the world. The Liberals and the News Media is destroying America with their BS.

Incomplete
As a journalist, Mr Medved, should not you be compelled to seek out several sources? The Iraqi Health Ministry? How long has this organization even been in existence? I'm certain that any governmental department under Hussein had quickly disintegrated during the "shock and awe" and even the "Mission Accomplished" phases of the war. The current Iraqi Health Ministry was established by the lightweight bureaucrat Paul Bremer, whose tenure was viewed universally as a failure. Who is running this Ministry now in this far-from-a-functioning democracy? I did not see any quotes from anyone in charge. None of these issues lends credibility to the casualty figure cited.

Just Gross
First, I think these numbers should have been public and made by official international agencies from the very start. That we have hid the numbers of Iraqi casualties and only counted our own is disgusting.

But beyond that, what Medved has the audacity to state:

"The relevance of these other conflicts ought to be obvious – since they all reflect (as does the Iraq War) the singularly brutal, blood-thirsty nature of local conflicts involving Arab-against-Arab, and Muslim-against-Muslim. In each of these wars, the most significant American role (which is very much the case in Iraq) involved efforts to stop or to minimize the bloodshed. "

...that's just ignorant, nasty, and completely blind to the truth. We dropped the bombs, assassinated the elected leaders, propped up the monsters, and armed the aggressors in all these conflicts.

We, the USA, share the blame for this bloodshed. Remember when Saddam electrified the marshes and killed a million Iranians? Yep, the CIA taught him how to do it.

If you don't see how that makes us responsible, if only partially, then you have a serious problem.

We need the whole count, every human being, who is killed in these conflicts. Maybe then we'll shutter the doors on the arms dealers who sell to both sides and the monstrous politicians and intelligence agencies who profit from never-ending warfare.

How did they count civilian deaths?
If the US military kills an armed terrorist wearing civilian clothes in battle, is he a "civilian"?

Several years ago when this bogus study first reared its ridiculous head, there was a real head-count study that found something like 80% of the "civilian" deaths were males aged 20-30. Something else is at work to produce results like that because bombs don't discriminate, and therefore you would think the deaths would be spread out among all age groups and sexes in their proportion in the population.

"Tragically, civilian deaths in Iraq have been happening in Iraq for 28 years. For the first 24 years, politicians, Leftists, and the fourth estate didn’t give a damn." -- "Fuzzy Moral Math"
http://www.logictimes.com/antiwar.htm

oh, Sedonaman
you are sick in the head and need someone to love.

Terminology doesn't matter one bit. We should just call them persons, and leave it at that.

Honestly, how can you hear that we've killed 100k people and talk about defining them?

Where is your humanity hiding?

paranoidmystic
Where was YOUR humanity hiding when Saddam was killing people for the 24 years prior? Apparently that was no concern of yours because you didn't have George Bush to blame.

Looking for "a"
Calling all THers:

I am looking for "a" so if you see him posting anywhere please tell him I have a response to him on Brent Bozell's current column. We are trying to set up a little get together and I don't want him weaseling out of it.

Thanks

"The Civilian Casualty Fable"
"...a curious statistical anomaly jumps right off page one [of the Lancet study]: over 81% of the civilian
casualties are men. Even stranger, over 90% of civilian casualties are adults in a country with a disproportionate percentage of the population under 18 (44.5%). This contradicts a basic tenet of the civilian casualty argument, namely that we are describing collateral damage during a time of war. Collateral damage does not differentiate between male and female, between child and adult. A defective smart bomb falling in a marketplace, stray bullets ripping through bedroom walls, city warfare in Fallujah – all these activities should produce casualties that reflect the ratio of men to women or adults to children that prevail in Iraq as a whole.

This question is particularly relevant when one side in the conflict does not wear uniforms, is predominantly adult and of one gender, and engages in a practice of concealing its combatants within the civilian population. The statistics are further distorted if the Iraqi security forces – essentially the free Iraqi military on the side of the U.S. coalition – are classified as civilians, as they are in this study.

"Consider the reported vs. expected gender and age distribution in the Iraq Body Count analysis" [page 3 of http://www.logictimes.com/civilian%20pf.htm].

Bottom line on credibility: "Civilian deaths in Iraq have been happening in Iraq for 28 years. For the first 24 years, politicians, Leftists, and the fourth estate didn’t give a damn."

These people protest America
"The evidence supports only one conclusion: it is not the death and suffering of innocents that is objectionable to these protesters, only the death and suffering caused by American policy. These people protest America, not war."

http://www.logictimes.com/antiwar.htm

But where were you?
"Where was YOUR humanity hiding when Saddam was killing people for the 24 years prior?"

I was protesting Reagan's support of strongman Saddam while he was killing 1 million Iranians and committing genocide on the Kurds.

Where were you?

My point is that it doesn't matter if those killed are combatants or civilians - we should not hide the numbers, we should take responsibility for the numbers.

In truth, every person in an occupied country is a combatant IMHO. I don't care who the country is or what the politics are, if tanks come rolling into LA I am immediately a combatant because I will protect my home and my family.

paranoidmystic
I notice you were idle when Clinton was president and Saddam was still on his murder rampage.

Clinton era madness
No, I was protesting Clinton's quiet war against the Iraqi people through sanctions, as well.

Listen, there's are constructive ways to influence other nations and destructive ways as well.

It's interesting that we can be so wrapped up in the power politic of a nation across the world when there are so many moral issues to work on right here at home and amongst our nearest neighbors.

The fact is, Saddam got to the position he enjoyed as a direct result of US support. The fact is, we've killed 110,000 Iraqis in our effort to remove him. These facts need to be stated clearly and examined. Hiding these facts or pretending they don't exist or (worse) don't matter is intellectual dishonesty.

For Paranoid.
We supported Saddam when it was in the best interests of our national defense. We turned on him when he became a threat. Like it or not, most of the intel services of the free world believed, just as Clinton and Gore did, that he was a WMD threat.

If you want to feel guilty about our intervention and the deaths of a questionable number of people in the process, go ahead. Don't however, try to convince me that I should feel guilty too.

By the way, you say you would defend your family if tanks rolled into L.A. Do you own a firearm? More important, would you actually use it and be willing to take a chance on hurting, or killing someone who might be innocent, in the process?

That's our governments' first obligation; to protect us from all enemies, foreign and domestic. That's what Bush/Cheny were doing. You had better hope that Obama has the same strength of character when the time comes that it needs to be done again.

Consistency, facts & the slippery slope
"We supported Saddam when it was in the best interests of our national defense. We turned on him when he became a threat. "

That's exactly right, and thank you for putting it so succinctly.

The US is not moral, and never has been. It is run on an ad hoc basis, and often (esp in the realm of foreign policy) by the most brutal means available.

The facts and figures of our excursions abroad MUST be made public and examined with care. Only then can we start making wise decisions. This mealy-mouthed argument that 100k casualties doesn't compare to the 1 million Iranians Saddam killed... I'm just lacking words for how spineless it strikes me.

Have y'all seen the truly excellent film The Fog of War?

Remember the homless?
That guy who killed himself after it got out that he was pulling numbers out of his butt like a good liberal? With a MAX of about 300,000 homeless in America we'd have lost about 30 MILLION before the years end. I think he was Mitch Snyder.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Wrangeler with a red herring
What does Snyder, dead for almost 20 years, have to do with 100k dead Iraqis?

The point here is that these figures should and must come to light. We ought to be providing them ourselves, as part of our process of war. If we ignore the consequences of our actions, how will we ever learn from them?

What will the left biased media do??
If the actual numbers come out as Paranoidmystic suggests, what will the major left media sources do if they turn out to be way off with the figures they reported on?
The media has no penalty for the consequences of their actions. If the facts don't live up to their leftist standards, there would be no story or retraction printed.
Any Republican media on the numbers would be portrayed as skewed by Bush/Cheney.

Liberal morality...
paranoidmystic.
I doubt very much that you would defend yourself and your home if enemy tanks were to come rolling into LA. I remember back in the day when your ilk would scream "Better Red then Dead" during the cold war era.
Talking about morality. Liberals don't seem to have a problem with 50 million unborn babies butchered since Roe vs Wade.

Jeremiah
Since there's too much red tape in the way of posting a comment on your complaining (note - not refuting) on your blog, I'll respond here:

So accuracy and context (Medveds overall point) isn't big with you?

110,000 dead, while not a good thing, is preferable to almost a million dead, isn't it? I think it's probably also important to emphasize who was behind most of it, don't you?

royinoslo
Doesn't your position here completely absolve the crimes committed by terrorists and militant clerics and warlords behind the atrocities?

Your analogy is silly because in reality it would be leftist policies that would let murderers and violent criminals out of prison prematurely, but yet I doubt you would pin their future crimes on the leftists behind their release. But then you'd probably just blame it on society, so maybe there is some consistency in your analogy.

Jeffrey
The left is targeted because they embraced the Lancet results, which was about as junky junk science as you could get. And why? Because it was sound research? No because it produced figures that were vastly higher than anything produced up to that point. Lancet could have come up with '5 million dead' and it would have been even more heartily embraced. Reality be damned; context be damned; accuracy be damned. We'll just go with 'feelings' and higher numbers support our feelings so that's all that matters...

Medved Channels David Irving!
The demographic model used by The Lancet was considered trustworthy by right-wingers when it was used to calculate the death toll from the Tsunami, as well as the various wars in Africa, such as the civil war in Congo. So the baseless dismissal of those methods for tallying the dead in Iraq is just denial of mass murder. David Irving would be proud.


Hey Jeremiah

That's some pretty funny stuff!!

Yes it IS Our Fault

It just does not cut it to say that most of those dead Iraqis were killed by other Iraqis so it isn't our fault. If we invade a foreign country, occupy it and dismantle it's government, then WE are in charge, and it IS OUR FAULT! And it STAYS OUR FAULT well past the time we first scrape together a new native government.

It makes me sick to read Medved piously proclaiming our noble quest to bring Democracy to Iraq. If we actually gave a Rat's Anus about Iraq and it's people, and we still were stupid enough to invade, we would have listened to our generals and gone in with Colin-Powell-type numbers instead of idiot-Rumsfeldt-type numbers, so we would have had some chance of preserving order and protecting the population.

I hate to say it, because the man was a butcher, but so far Iraq would have been better off under Saddam. I guess the potential is there for that bleak assessment to become false, but it's true so far.

Yes it is our Fault
I completely agree with flaming liberal. This is such a typical medved zionist racist article. By saying that because Iraqis killed Iraqis and so we are not at fault, the author is basically acknowledging that US is not in control. From the moment of invasion, whatever goes wrong in Iraq was the fault of US. If you can't control the violence then don't go.
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