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Wednesday, January 07, 2009
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Palestinian Victims Get More Attention Than Others
by Michael Medved
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In the first days of 2009, the forces of civilization won a decisive and perhaps even definitive victory against one of the world's most fanatical and bloodthirsty terrorist organizations.

While media outlets focused on the far less brutal and costly conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Army of Sri Lanka finally overran Kilinochchi, the long-time base of operations for the "Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam" – the implacable guerillas whose depredations produced as many as 500,000 internal refugees. According to official government and UN figures, the fighting in Sri Lanka since 1983 claimed at least 70,000 lives among fighters and civilians on both sides.

By contrast, the battles between Israelis and Palestinians in the same period (1983-2009) killed at the very most some 15,000 -- including civilian and military who fell in direct combat together with all victims of various terror operations.

Why, then, should the world give so much more attention to the Israeli-Palestinian struggle than to a cruel, seemingly endless fight between Sinhalese Buddhists and Tamil Hindus that produced nearly five times the number of casualties?

The Palestinians' own figures claim 2,162 dead in the First Intifada (1987-93) and another 5,837 in the Second Intifada (2000-2005), with Palestinian-on-Palestinian savagery responsible for at least one-fourth of those who perished. In the 2006 Lebanon War between Israel and the Shiite terrorists of Hezbollah (not strictly speaking a clash between Israelis and Palestinians), the Lebanese government identified 700 Hezbollah fighters and 1,191 civilians who lost their lives.

In the first week of Israel's current military operation to stop Hamas rocket attacks from Gaza, the U.N. reported that 500 died, at most 125 of them civilians.

At precisely the same time, Ugandan rebels slaughtered an estimated 400 civilians in the Eastern Congo (according to the Catholic aid agency Caritas) and piled at least 150 of their horribly mutilated bodies like cord wood in a church sanctuary on Christmas day. "The scene at the church was unbelievable," Captain Chris Magezi of the Ugandan Army told the Associated Press. "It was horrendous. On the floor were dead bodies of mostly women and children cut in pieces."

Why should the suffering and martyrdom of these African villagers count for less than the simultaneous, vastly more publicized misfortunes of Palestinians in Gaza?

What gives Palestinian victims their special status—a standing that brings with it a wildly disproportionate share of the world's concern and attention?

The United Nations General Assembly, as well as the Security Council, blithely ignored the more numerous and sadistic civilian casualties in the Congo, and paid no heed to the climax of an unspeakably bloody 16 year war in Sri Lanka, while investing virtually all their time in obsessive debates over the defensive Israeli incursion into Gaza.

What makes the residents of Gaza so uniquely worthy of compassion, concern and publicity from western journalists and even policy makers?

None of the most straightforward or convenient answers to these questions begin to account for the unbalanced focus on Palestinian woe.

No, the struggle between Israel and Hamas hardly counts as "the world's most dangerous conflict." The rag-tag jihadists of the Gaza strip, with their largely home-made rockets and twisted, suicidal impulses, may well be a menace to the peace of the region but hardly constitute an existential threat to civilization itself. In India, on the other hand, Islamic terror has claimed 4,000 deaths since 2004 (a far higher level of blood-letting than anywhere in the Palestinian territories or Israel proper) and the core conflict in south Asia involves two well-armed nuclear powers (Pakistan and India) who have fought several devastating wars in the recent past.

Strategic or financial considerations also fail to explain the ridiculously overwrought concentration on Israel and its enemies. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians control any oil resources, yet a titanic struggle between two of the world's three leading petro-powers (the Iran-Iraq War of 1980-88) killed 1.3 million soldiers and civilians and drew distinctly limited attention from global media.

The history of displacement among Palestinians hardly makes them unique among the peoples of the world, though they've seized on the term "refugee" as the very essence of their identity. At most 750,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees after five Arab states simultaneously attacked Israel in 1948, but within the next ten years an even greater number of Jews (800,000) became refugees from persecution in Islamic nations in North Africa in the Middle East and resettled in the Jewish state. At precisely the same moment that Israel won world recognition in 1948, the partition of India and Pakistan led to 14.5 million refugees (and at least 500,000 deaths in the "Independence Riots"). The Lebanon Civil War of 1975-1990 produced 900,000 refugees (according to that tormented nation's own government) and an estimated 200,000 to 250,000 deaths in horrific clashes between Arab Muslims and Arab Christians.

Jew-haters (who feel inevitably energized and encouraged by any conflict involving Israel) explain the inappropriate obsession with conflicts like the current confrontation in Gaza as a reflection of the unsavory influence of Jewish interests. According to this logic, the 2% of Americans who identify as Jews want special attention to these battles because of their tribal identification with cousins in Israel. This may account for some portion of the U.S. fascination with the Middle East, together with concern of committed Christians regarding the "Holy Land" where Jesus spent all his years on earth. But such explanations hardly account for the European fixation on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The nations of the Old World identify as famously, stubbornly secular rather than Christian, and among the 500 million citizens in the E.U., Jews account for less than one-fourth of one-percent (Hitler took care of the rest).

Unfortunately, an absence of Jews doesn't mean an absence of paranoid, anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. The Japanese, for instance, seem fascinated with accounts of "Jewish Power" and eagerly scoop up frequent bestsellers about Hebraic control of the world financial system, despite a nationwide Jewish population of less than 4,000. Even for nations that remain altogether "Judenrein" ("Pure of Jews") the fascination with the Children of Israel seems to remain a factor, directing an illogical (and unwanted) focus toward their modern-day descendants in the Middle East. As the old-saying goes, "Jews are News," and remain newsworthy even in parts of the world where they haven't lived for centuries. In this sense, the Palestinians receive disproportionate notice not because of any distinctive quality of their own nationhood or history, but because their purported oppressors remain the most controversial, compelling, loathed, admired and polarizing people on the planet.

Another factor serves to explain the blinding spotlight on all conflicts involving Israel and her neighbors: the deep engagement in the region of the United States of America. Domestic critics of recent U.S. policy suggest that much of the world (especially among Islamic nations) hates America because of our connection to Israel. In fact, the evidence actually suggests that the nations of the earth despise Israel because of its close attachment with the United States.

Early in Israel's history, before the U.S. emerged as the nation's leading supporter and ally, the struggling Jewish state attracted far more world-wide support (in the U.N. and elsewhere) than it does today. The U.S. only began serious military cooperation with Israel in the 1970's, in response to Soviet sponsorship of Israel's Arab enemies. Before that switch, France, not America, sold Israel most of its high-tech weapons, leading the IDF to rely heavily on French Mirage fighters, for instance, in the key aerial engagements of the 1967 war.

As American involvement with Israel deepened, world hatred and resentment toward the Jewish state correspondingly intensified. The government in Jerusalem became a convenient outlet for the hatred of the United States that seemed to seethe and bubble-up everywhere, even among our European allies. Bashing the U.S. could only go so far among nations of Europe, Asia and Latin America because they realized on some level that they might someday need America's help or support. No such compunction stood in the way of cruelly irresponsible attacks on Israel (like the ludicrous yet ubiquitous claims that the Zionists have perpetrated a Nazi-like "Holocaust" against the Palestinians – despite the undeniable evidence of rapidly growing, not declining, Palestinian populations).

In a very real sense, Anti-Americanism has helped to fuel anti-Israelism, far more than anti-Semitism has shaped or encouraged anti-Americanism.

Understanding the irrational nature of America-hatred (see THE 10 BIG LIES ABOUT AMERICA, my new bestseller) won't put an end to it any more than understanding the unjustified concentration on Israeli-Palestinian disputes will reign in that groundless obsession.

The unfolding events in Gaza do, in fact, matter deeply and will help to determine the future course of the worldwide war against Islamo-Nazi terror. Inevitably, the world will continue to apply ferocious focus on Israel's struggles, even though they claim a few hundred civilian casualties at a time when other conflicts produce such victims in the thousands or tens of thousands. No one can deny the fascinating and dramatic nature of the recent battle against Hamas, but responsible observers should at least make some serious attempts to place their concerns and compassion in a more appropriate and balanced global perspective.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Epiphany's Star before Red Starry Eyed.
Keffiyehs and “radical chic” are prêt a porter, don’t you know?

Your view Mr. Medved, that resentment for all American foreign policy and the corollary animus toward Israel seem a good historical fit as well.

As the U.S. struggled in Vietnam and then foreign episodes such as Chile, our standing that had been so pronounced following W.W.II, began to erode with the new populations of Europe, untethered as they were to the preceding war years, suffering and Allied liberation.

By the time of the Axel Springer passions in (then) West Germany to the cooperation of Bader/Meinhof with the Red Army Factions and the PFLP and the PLO leading on to Entebbe, the radicals of the west and the universities had merged U.S. foreign policy and the State of Israel with little love for either.

One cannot however obviate completely that those that hate so deeply Israel and the U.S. projection of power are not themselves best of breed. “Hasta la Victoria Siempre” like “No Pasaran” before it, are fun slogans to wax over in coffee shops while drinking and smoking black tobacco cigarettes but they are the mouthings of one dimensional persons that see only the cause and never the causation.

If Palestinians suffer for generations, it is because they bought into the Gran Mufti and then Chairman Arafat without any critical demands on that leadership. The Palestinian people are to blame for their Diaspora and despair.

Remembering Vanessa Redgrave dancing with her scarf and kalash should be the image for the dervish twirl that engulfs the radicals as they frenzy themselves against the only democratic state in the Middle East.

I’ll stick with images of Mickey Marcus even if they came via Kirk Douglas.

The End is Near!
Not to worry about the Middle-East conflicts anymore, once we hit January 21, 2009, the world will "love" the US again. Our slate will be wiped clean and Love will steer the stars! Peace will break-out all over the world. The time has come! (argh)

"The nations of the earth despise
Israel because of its close attachments with the United States"

Am I living in the Twilight Zone?

First AL Franken and now this.

Do not attempt to adjust your set.

The "outlaw" state?

Since some people want to convince us that the Jewish state should not exist because it has allegedly committed "genocide" against the Arabs of Palestine . . . despite the fact that even the Arabs of Israel proper have INCREASED in population under Israeli rule . . . perhaps we should then say the United States should not exist, because many of our ancestors attempted genocide against the native indians. Or, perhaps I am then justified in going back to the northern Ireland of my Gaelic ancestors and telling the current Protestant inhabitants that they have "no right" to live there, because Oliver Cromwell stole the land from my forebears more than 350 years ago and deprived me of my legacy. Perhaps the Muslims too have "no right" to exist in Palestine, since their own 7th century ancestors stole it . . . at the point of a sword . . . from its previous residents.
One of my own uncles would be very surprised indeed to learn that the Holocaust is a "myth" . . . especially since he was among the first American military investigators who arrived after the liberation of the camps. He personally interviewed survivors, and found ample evidence of mass extermination. The Holocaust is the most highly-documented crime in history. Are we supposed to believe that ALL of the people who personally witnessed it . . . German, Polish, Ukrainian and Jew . . . were lying?
I am not an expert on Zyklon gas, but it is interesting that a previous comment made NO mention of differing effects of that gas in DIFFERENT concentrations.

Joseph Goebbels Alive And Well.

Can you picture the Nazi memobrilia spread everywhere around Joseph's house? Bet he has recordings of Hitler playing 24-7.

Nazi Memorabilia

In addition to that stuff, I'm sure Joseph watches documentary movies about Hitler.

As Hitler raves on about "the Jewish problem", Joseph must be overcome with joy. The real Joseph Goebbels had the same sensation when his leader spoke.

Hey Joseph....
Be very afraid. I'm a jew and so am part of the vast global jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. We manipulate the press and the world banking system. We american jews (2% of the population) have vast control over the US government and can track your post straight back to your bank account. Expect to be audited by the IRS within the next month and have your assets seized for tax evasion. Expect your government assistance checks to stop during the year-long investigation...you'll have to live in a cardboard box and eat beans.

And you probably believe all that. Idiot.

Joseph Goebbels Alive And Well
AND LIVING IN ILLINOIS!

And here he is today. Right here at TOWNHALL!

................................................


Oregon Lady: I can assure you that Joseph believes "all that" and then some. He went over the edge sometime ago and he's not coming back. Not anytime soon, anyway.

T.C.
I'll bet the proud centerpiece of Joseph's home library is a copy of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"!

Oregon Lady of 7:05
What baffles me is why Jews and black folks vote Democrat in such large numbers. It is a cliche that Jews spoil their grandchildren and are shrewd financially. Yet they are vocal supporters of social security, which has historically paid about 1%, and passes huge unfunded debt on to following generations. Is it a combination of a victim mentality, and the spurious notion that the Dems are the party of the little person? Whatever. It beats me.

Bizarre Question
Why? Because billions of our taxes are subsidizing Israel, Egypt and to a lesser degree, the West Bank and Gaza, that's why. Who knows, maybe the CIA is funding one side or another in Sri Lanka, but not like this. It's time to consider cutting everyone off until the parties concerned make a deal.

To T.C. and Pistol
T.C.: I know he believes all that. I was just hoping he'd be scared enough to stop posting. I find him offensive. Thanks for the comment.

Pistol: In answer to your question, I don't know why my fellow Jews continue to vote Democrat. I've come to the sad conclusion that we must be schizophrenic. Jewish law and values are so much more in sync with conservative principles than liberal but Jews persist in viewing the Republican party as a group of only white Christian men. However, one hopeful sign is that 10% fewer Jews voted for Obama than that historically seen for other demo candidates. Could be an indication that we're starting to learn.

Standshisground

Count on it! The Turner Diaries, too! Joseph spends countless hours reading both.

What can I say.

There's always at least one lunatic who stops by TOWNHALL. Today, Joseph, who is certifiable, showed up.

Joseph
You are an idiot plain, pure and simple.

BTW...who in the blankity, blank, blank ever told you they walked in smoking and eating? Pure nonsense and stupidity. I think you made it up.

Go crawl back under your rock.

Oh BTW...there is a new science called reading, and if you don't like that there is another called photography. Perhaps they might help to educate you, since first hand accounts and witnesses seem of little value to you.

My father
was in the U.S. army group that liberated Dachau. I have pictures that were taken there. Whether or not the "gas chambers" pictured were or weren't used for the purpose of killing makes absolutely no difference. The entire reason for being was the death of Jews and others whom the Nazis judged not worthy of life. I can look at the pictured piles of bodies, ashes, toys and clothing and know the Nazis were among the most evil of men.

T.C., Lolo1, Oregon Lady et al
Gee, I'm surprised that while he was at it, Joseph didn't tell us as well that the Jews, not Al Qaeda, were really the ones who destroyed the World Trade Center on 9/11. Hey, if you're going to be a crackpot, you might as well go all the way, right?

Well, maybe Joseph DID say that as well, I guess I can't go back through his posts to check, since it looks like they've been flagged and removed.

Actually, I'm sorry that happened. As outrageous as his statements were (and as a Jew by birth, I figure I have more right than most here to be offended by them), I never flag posts on this site no matter how far down toward the bottom of the barrel in terms of taste or content they scrape. And especially in the case of liberals, as one other conservative poster argued some time ago in urging fellow conservatives NOT to flag posts on this site even when they're totally beyond the pale, we WANT the world to see EXACTLY what kind of people compose today's Democratic Party, and the posts of such people serve as a blaring sign declaring, "This is your brain on liberalism!" In the case of Joseph: well, there's no law against someone being a fool.

Lolo 1
My posts are being cencored. I would like to respond to your comment.

A squirrel is just a rat with better PR

Why do Palestinians (as well as all arab "victims" for that matter) get more attention?

Simple...they have a better propaganda machine including the BBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, New York Times, LA Time, Washington Post, MoveOn.org, etc.

Lolo 1
There were first hand accounts of the human sopa and the lamphsade made from human skins stroies as well.

Joseph
In the blizzard of deathless information you put on this thread earlier today, since flagged and removed (I can promise you that I, a Jew by birth, didn't flag any of your posts: see my post of 8:43 am), how is it you've neglected to inform us as well, and provide the corroboration that I'm sure you're just dying to share with us all, how it was really the Jews, not Al Qaeda, who actually destroyed the World Trade Center on 9/11? This has become canon in the Muslim world, after all.

Get on the ball, mon!

Do not kill the messenger
Bernie Madoff ran a ponzi scheme for a long time. People in the business looked at his numbers and concluded these are baseless. Revisionist historians have looked at the gas chamber story and have concluded that it is baseless. Madoff ran a ponzi scheme. Part of his success was due to his standing in the financial community. The Jewish War Refugee Board and the WJC originated these genocide stories and the wartime propaganda machine took over. I agree that for someone who is Jewish it will be more difficult to consider whether an insecticide could be used to asphyxiate millions of people in improvised rooms which were to serve as gas chambers. But once you have thought about you will have to come to terms with your own conscience.

Why?
Why do folks care about anything in the mid-east? Drain the mid-east of oil and no one would care.

GENOCIDE
Nobody really worries about GENOCIDE,it happens and the world forgets.They hide it under all guises,but its still Genocide.For example the greatest Genocide was of the ARMENIANS,in 1915.turkey and its butchers,with a mongol mentality has been LYING about it all along.The world blinked. At least the Germans had the integrity to admit it..So, you can expect that from turkey who has a ILLITERATCY rate of 70%, and still climbing.....

standhisground
I applaud your support for defending my right to publicly express my views. I too support your right to publicly express you views. At the end of the day we must agree that we both have the right to disagree with each other. I am not sure what Al Queda or muslims have to do with any of my posts .

Facts not feelings
It is not open for discussion unless you are a member of the radical anti-Christian/ Jewish left that millions of both Jews and Gypsies died in those gas chambers. Both populations were nearly wiped out. Both Gysy and Jew were among the leaders in Science, art and medicine in the pre WW II period yet both were declared sub human. The puzzle is why we tlak about the millions of Jews that died and not the millions of Gypsy's or the millions of Russians, during WW II.

Question:
Of all the violence going on in the world at the moment, why does an action by Israel against crazies in the Gaza area gain so much outraged writing and whining by conservative columnists?
The fact must be pointed out again and again -- support or lack thereof for Israel has NOTHING to do with conservatism.


Hold up hope for the American Jew.
For awhile I've found the link between America Haters and Israel haters to be found in the same secular or liberal circles. Surprisingly, there were prominent Jews in the media (TV and print) that would be against the actions Israel takes. Forturnately, I have seen in the past couple of years a direct counter attack that show American Jews are showing more support for their fellow cousins in Israel. Perhaps the idea of liberalism is beginning to die out for American Jews.

Joseph! WHAT!

Your posts are being "cencored". I'm shocked!

Who do you think might be doing this, Joseph?

I bet I know. It's the "Ultra Secret Jewish Cabal Gang"! Yep. They're at it again.

They "cencored" you! Can you imagine that? Just like they "cencored" you yesterday and the day before, too. Isn't that right, Joseph? Know who I think "cencored" you, Joseph? Yourself.

It took years for you to become what you have become. Years of hate building up. And now, sadly, you are what are.

Deeply anti-Semitic and certifiable.

Surrender
Here is a novel idea. If Hamas and the Palestinians are tired of the bloodshed and are hungry for peace, then just say no to terrorism.

Unconditional surrender. Trade their guns and bombs for hammers and rebuild the mess they have created.

Wow, that is revolutionary...

Umm.
So, the nations of the world became less friendly to Israel *because* of U.S. support?

Actually, de Gaulle ended France's arms trade with Israel in 1967. Before this, the U.S. had sold Hawk missiles to Israel in 1962, and tanks in 1965. The U.S. had provided at least this much to Israel's Arab neighbors (to Jordan, for instance). Further, the U.S. joined the UN in condemning an Israeli raid in 1966.

When De Gaulle made known his decision to embargo arms to Israel, he described the Jewish people as "this elite people, sure of themselves and domineering".

Seems a bit much to believe that the very limited U.S. arms supplied to Israel by that date -- which were clearly intended to do no more than balance Soviet arms shipments and U.S. deliveries to Arab nations -- as well as the rather ambiguous U.S. support of Israeli policies, resulted in such a turnabout of French opinion in just four or five years.

I have a different theory.

By 1937-8, Britain had pulled back from its promise to make a Jewish Homeland in its Palestine Mandate. No other nations seemed interested in championing the Jewish cause. Anti-semitism, indeed, was running high in Russia, Poland, etc. Jews were not very highly esteemed in Western Europe, either; the Nazis found hundreds of thousands of willing collaborators in the deportation of the Jews from Europe and the 'redistribution' of their property.

In 1947, though, the UN voted to create a nation of Israel. Why the sudden support? Clearly, the mass murder of Jews during the war had temporarily generated a great deal of sympathy (and guilty consciences) for the Jews. However, such temporary sympathies don't last. The old traditional distrust and resentment towards Jews took a few decades to re-establish itself, but had finally succeeded by the 1980's.

I believe that U.S. support for Israel *resulted from* waning world support, rather than *causing* it.

threepines
If you are so sure that gas chambers existed, then tell me the procedure for asphyxiating hundreds of people at one time. Provide me with
the link . Arno Mayer, who teaches history at Princeton wrote a book titled " Why Did the Heavens Not Darken." In it he states that " sources for study of the gas chamber are at once rare and unreliable ." By the way Mayer is Jewish. so if you are so convinced that these gas chambers existed and that there was a process/method that allowed for asphyxiations on a mass scale, please do some research and provide me with the link.

T.C.
Unfortunately, there are hundreds of millions of people throughout the world who think just like Joseph: they're called Muslims.

Regarding Joseph, I regard him as just a harmless nut. The Muslims, on the other hand, have proven themselves this decade to be ANYTHING but harmless.

I very much doubt Joseph would be willing to sacrifice his life to take out some Jews. But as we saw in the recent Mumbai terror attack, as we're seeing right now in the current Israel-Hamas conflagration, and as we've seen oh so many other times this decade, Muslims are PERFECTLY willing to sacrifice themselves to kill Jews - and the rest of us non-Jewish "infidels" as well.

Joseph from IL: #19
I haven't heard the story about the "human soap" the Nazis allegedly made from their victims, but I HAVE heard about the "human lampshades"! They were a piece of evidence in the Nuremberg Trials, after WW2. The wife of the Dachau camp commandant was caught red-handed with them in her possesion. (And both later hanged, after trial.) Far from being disproved, they were exibits, at trial, of the base barbarity of the Nazis.

To Joseph
I wonder, do you accept that, after the war, the great majority of European Jews were found to have disappeared? If so, where do you suppose they are all hiding?

Lolo-SHGround-Pistol-OregonLady-Others
Why does The MSM make no mention of Israeli Casualties? I have seen & heard Sniveling, Weak Kneed, Liberal Whiners SCREECHING for “Proportional Response”?!?!?! WTF is that all about?!?!?! Any one who has been in a fight, be it in WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, A Corner Bar or High School KNOWS that OVERWHELMING Force GUARANTEES that you will only have to deliver 1 Butt Kicking instead of having renewed hostilities at the drop of a hat.

Joseph
You are no doubt a nut...but censored? Not hardly.

You can post all of the grand conspiracy theories you want but it won't work.

BTW...I could care less about what you deem lies. My husband grandfather liberated one of those camps and I own the photos that he took personally. Yes dear, I have my own proof positive of the Holocaust.

Standshisground

Really a shame when it comes to people like Joseph.

Concerning Muslim Radicals, you're right on target. Now we have an administration that seems unconcerned with this threat. Look at Obama's pick to head the CIA. Appalling!

I'm grateful my father, an outstanding law enforcement official and my uncle, WW11 bomber pilot extrordinaire, are no longer here to see what's happening to this once great nation.

PISTOL: We'll be heading to Florida shortly. We love it here in the Pocono Mountains, but we love our time in the Sunshine State, too.


Joseph (and holocaust deniers in general
When I was around 12, I was reading a history of Eisenhower in WWII (I've been a military history buff practically all my life). When I read that his order to the Army and civilian press corp to come and immediately document the camps as they were discovered which made this the most documented event in human history was motivated by his premonition that someday, someone would try to deny it ever happened, well I dove right in and read or viewed all the stuff I could find. There was a lot of this stuff still around in the 70's. Granted, it was heavy stuff for a twelve year-old, and there were nightmares to be sure. However I do not regret this a single bit; my nightmares don't begin to compare to the reality of it. I will always provide testimonial to the evidence I have seen and the GI's I have talked to who were there. Eisenhower would be greatly saddened to learn that, despite the tremendous, unprecedented amount of coverage this received, that there are STILL people with their head far enough up their a**es to deny it.

Georgetwin
That's because, in their arrogant smugness, they fail to realize that they are completely clueless about military operations. they remind me of the mindset of McNamara's "whiz kids" from the Viet-Nam conflict deducing that for every X amount of ordinance expended, there should be Y numbers of enemy casualties. What a load of crap! These brainiacs should be issued a weapon and stuck in the middle of a fight, any fight. Maybe then they can perceive that there is theory, and then there's reality. I think the Israelis have shown extraordinary restraint with regards to Hamas. I mean, c'mon, calling up residents on their cell phones to warn them of impending attack? This is unheard-of in modern warfare, with the exception of the US and her closest ally, the UK.

nobody cares about genocide
when it doesn't affect them personally. We don't like it, but we never do anything about it.

However, there is nothing that can stir up self-righteous and roiling emotion like victimhood, it just makes the heart swell.

All those Palestinian parents and children are just trying to get your sympathy, they should defiitely know better. Everybody knows that the Israelis have victimhood perfected, and are not about to give it up for a few raggedy heathens.

Georgetwin
You asked why Pravda aka The MSM is making no mention of Israeli casualties.

My contention on that is there is a fiction in the liberal world that MUST be maintained at all costs, which the Israeli-Palestinian narrative is a part of: that those that liberals claim to speak for (women, gays, union members, certain ethnic minorities, the "oppressed", etc.) can ONLY be VICTIMS, never VICTIMIZERS - and those that liberals oppose (conservative Christians being at the top of THAT list) can ONLY be VICTIMIZERS, never VICTIMS. And their perception of the events of this world is filtered through that prism.

We see a perfect example of this in the ways gays are covered (I could give MANY other examples, but I'd be here all day if I tried) by Pravda aka The MSM. Sure, we all know what was done to Matthew Shepard there in Wyoming years ago, but how many Americans know about Jesse Dirkhising: a young Arkansas boy murdered by two gay neighbors in what one called a sex game gone bad. Because of the fact that gays in this instance turned out to be VICTIMIZERS and not VICTIMS, this was something that just didn't fit into the liberal mindset, so this incident was simply ignored by the liberal media. Look at how the media also totally distorted what happened in Jena, Louisiana not long ago. And we all remember the Duke lacrosse rape case.

Liberals decided years ago that Palestinians are a victimized group (presumably for being "oppressed" or for whatever reason they're supposedly victims that only liberals understand) and never a victimizing group - and the Israelis are their victimizers and never their victims. Therefore, why should anyone care when PERPETRATORS die, they've reasoned.

If card-check becomes law under Obama and unions start engaging in violent tactics to try to unionize resistant workplaces, as I believe they will, you watch and see what kind of coverage in Pravda aka The MSM incidents of union violence will get. As in, NONE!

We need a strong Israel
Imagine the area there without just one sane, intelligent, civilized voice. Terrorists are Neanderthals with barbaric tactics from the Crusades era where they are still stuck. They haven't contributed anything to the peace dialogue except the elimination of Israel from the map. That's a real basis for peace, isn't it? I think we don't hear anything about the Hamas terrorists tactics because journalism is dead. Hannity is right. Michael Medved is right.

A simple observation

when people shoot from a mosque or pagoda, it is no longer a religious building.

If a person picks up a weapon, points it, and attempts to use it; they have transition to being a target regardless of being 14 or 40.

One last thought, remember the photo shopped pictures and the dead baby with the clean pacifier from Lebanon. Such attempts discredit real tragedies.

History Rewriters and Agendists !

My Dad,a Commander in a Mech.Recon and Ranger Task Force came across one of those camps.He cut out a halftrack with med supplies and a medical officer and kept his column rollin' because he was busy chasing down krauts.
People are busy attempting to rewrite history on both sides of the issue.Those camps were incidental to U.S. Military operations in WWII and as many Non-Jewish Victims died in those Nazi Camps as Jews did.

Let there be an examination and review of the facts.

Beyond that,this is a Foreigners Fight and The United States needs to reappraise Our National Interests,regarding this conflict and in the ME Region.
U.S. Taxpayers Money going towards Foreign Aid and Military Aid also needs to be reviewed here.




nstandhisgroud
First of all, the Dirkishing case was gagged. Second, his killers got their due punishment and are imprisoned.

In May last year, Sean Kennedy was murdered by someone who shouted anti gay epithets. His killer will be free by Sept. this year. Or at least paroled after a year and a half.
Murderers of gay people rarely get the time they deserve.


Conflating the Palestinian/Jewish conflict as one indicative of gay and lesbian victimizing of straight people is LUDICROUS.
Gay people haven't formed or elected a terrorist group to represent themselves. They utilize due process of law for their grievances.

And THEIR grievances are hardly as anecdotal as those of heterosexuals. Who are the majority in the populace and representative government as so many in TH love to point out.

Palestinians want Jews dead, as much as heteros want gay people dead.
But gay people DO come in peace, unlike Palestinians who don't.
Gay people belong to all cultures and ethnic groups and are caught in the middle.

Gay people share more in common with Jews as a minority people traditionally and chronically under siege in a world that doesn't want them to exist.

An observation
Holocaust "denial" brings out the worst in both its supporters and opponents. Deniers use bad logic and data. Opponents engage in obnoxious, censorious behavior.

Frankly the topic of the Gaza incursion has been covered far out of proportion to any real import it holds. TH seems to suffer from the same problem the Wall Street Journal has on this -- lots of people with Jewish names telling us with great certainty what Those People With Arabic Names are really up to.

du
I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that you WEREN'T a pro-Proposition 8 voter in November.

standshisground
Old news vs. new...
I, as an advocate of children, deplore ANY abuses or murders against them.
I work in law enforcement as a crime scene photographer.
Get some perspective, here SHG.

The Jesse D. case had issues of family dysfunction. They didn't especially COOPERATE with the press.

And eventually, the case was over. Done.
However, fresh victims of anti gay bias occur FAR more frequently.
Gay children aren't safe from their own peers, as in the case of Lawrence King, less than a year ago.
Two Ecuadoran brothers ASSUMED to be gay, were attacked and one killed a few months ago.

As for the incidents around Prop. 8 protests.
They too were few. However, such are constant and chronic, backed by political action which is what Prop. 8 was all about.
Excluding a SINGLE minority from the protections of the Constitution.

THAT is a much more profound and frightening turn of events. And thousands of gay couples were involuntarily thrown into a serious legal blender as well.

Assume NOTHING about me, SHG.
My interests are in fairness and justice.
Since YOU brought gay people into this discussion.

Are you really trying to say gay folks have treated hetero folks unfairly and without provocation in the bigger picture?

meant to say
Such actions as hetero against gay are far more constant and chronic and range from bullying and assault in school, and mental and emotional abuse from family, educators and clergy.
To job loss, family abandonment and murder.

These are not uncommon extremes, and gay people rightfully should challenge them and demand justice and protection FROM them.

Why anyone think they shouldn't, is as ridiculous as anyone expecting Jews to never defend themselves.

What about the warnings?
WHAT genocidal entity would WARN civilians to get out of the area BEFORE launching an attack on KNOWN rocket launch and storage sites? Israel has held the moral high ground in this war since 1948!

Israelis don't hide behind synagogues, schools and hospitals or among women and children to CREATE more martyr material for the world press. That's an Islamic specialty.

I recall an interview with the #2 man at Hamas saying that when they drive Israel into the sea he will "dance with joy as I shoot the last Jewish child in the face!" WHAT can you compare that to on the Israeli side? You CAN'T because they even rush medical aid to wounded Palestinian civilians.

You want to see the modern home of institutionalized anti-semitism in the world today? Just look to France and England and their media.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Palestinians are not *special* people
Palestinians are mostly of Arabic heritage who once lived in an area called Palestine, which no longer exists, and an area which also has been called the Levant (Middle Ages), Coele-Syria (under Alexander the Great and later Hellenism), Judea/Sumaria and Canaan-Israel (ancient times), but they all no longer exist either.

The Palestinians are like people from my state who moved to Pennsylvania when the English bought New Amsterdam from the Dutch and changed the name to New Jersey.

Those self-displaced call themselves New Amsterdamians and have been clamored for hundreds of years for the right-of-return to New Amsterdam (that no longer exists as the Palestinian Protectorate no longer exists) and lob missiles from Philadelphia into Camden under the slogan of driving New Jerseyans into the sea (Atlantic Ocean as it may be).

These missile throwers have been kept in virtual servitude in refugee camps by the UN and by handouts from various global donators. Their leadership brags terroristic politics and perpetual *war* through suicide bombings and civilian murders in New Jersey.

The MSM treat New Amsterdamians as some special class and bewail their treatment by New Jersey, which would like to live in peace but is driven on occasions of New Amsterdamian aggression to cross the Delaware and attack Phildelphia, whereby the entire world then moans and groans at how terrible New Jersey is and the poor plight of the New Amsterdamians.

That the world takes such interest in this conflict and so ferociously condemns New Jersey is difficult to justify. But the New Amsterdamians refuse permanent peace, hate New Jersey, and will never be pacified until annihilated. Whadda joke.

TO Ray from NY
You said:

"I recall an interview with the #2 man at Hamas saying that when they drive Israel into the sea he will "dance with joy as I shoot the last Jewish child in the face!" WHAT can you compare that to on the Israeli side? "

That was never said by HAMAS. You have no source. No reference. No specific individual. If anything, its pure Likud propoganda and intentional mistranslation which is a familiar game of AIPAC to keep the $3 Billion in American handouts coming into Israel and to manipulate public opinion.

Even pro-Israeli Alan Colmes has acknowledeged this propoganda game. In the summer of 08, Israel claimed that the government of Iran issued an edict that "Israel will be (militarily)wiped off the map". What was actually said by the Supreme leader was that "Israel will disappear in the pages of history". Very different meaning. Used by Israeli propogandists in the PR campaign against to secure sympathy and more from free money from U.S. taxpayers.



-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Learn From A Winner
Anti-Jewish feelings are based on the fact that Jewish intellectual and financial success is disproportional to their small numbers. Jews have proven that social restrains can be overcome and will not stop the talented individual from rising to the top. Many people search for socialistic governments to help them climb out of their misery while the Jew needs only freedom from persecution. Haters must learn from the Jew rather than throw stones at a winner.

Not so much
I see the decades post-holocaust like I see the weeks after 9-11: the events of both provided a catharsis for America and Jew hatred--people got what they secretly wanted. Catharses, however, are never permanent. The holocaust catharsis is long over, as is the over-flowing support America had after 9-11. Business is back to normal in the West and Middle East.

du
It's quite clear that you TOTALLY missed the point of my 11:04 am post. I thought the point I was making was pretty self-evident (I'm sure it was to Georgetwin and the other conservatives who have posted on this thread), but in today's America, it is obvious that liberals and conservatives don't even speak the same lingua franca anymore; my understanding of what words mean in the English language obviously isn't the same as yours or your liberal kith. Therefore, I'm not optimistic that you'd understand my meaning even if I tried to clarify it for you - and I'm not going to bother.

You sound to me like a gay with a victim mentality who filters everything through that mentality - or if not a gay, at least a typical liberal who sees victimization everywhere because those you listen to have so conditioned you to that mentality that you're a prisoner of it. Well, you'll pardon me, sir or madam (or maybe you're BOTH or HAVE BEEN BOTH during your lifetime), if my heart doesn't bleed for the supposedly oppressed gay community in this country that's supposedly subject to dehumanizing treatment on a daily basis.

Yeah, gays are so "victimized" in this country, all right, that gays in this country have a median income only 25% above the national median income. I'll bet if you asked blacks whether THEY'D like to experience this kind of "victimization", they'd take it in a New York minute.

First
How can you expect the Israelis to get along or trust a "terrorist group" to comply with anything or anybody when they brainwash their children almost from birth that they must be "martyred" by killing Jews. When they resort to having a Mickey Myrtr Mouse preach such hateful and disgusting diatribe, it's very obvious of their intentions. Take a look.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18619036/

To du
As far as I can see, the only way that homosexual issues relate to the Palestinian Arabs and to Israel, is that Palestinian Arab gays have to flee to Israel (!) for refuge from their murderous kindred. And that Israel takes them in and allows them to openly practice their lifestyle, of course.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3211772.stm

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=86872 2&contrassID=1&subContrassID=7


to Melvin in NY
You said:
"Learn From A Winner
Anti-Jewish feelings are based on the fact that Jewish intellectual and financial success is disproportional to their small numbers. Jews have proven that social restrains can be overcome and will not stop the talented individual from rising to the top. Many people search for socialistic governments to help them climb out of their misery while the Jew needs only freedom from persecution. Haters must learn from the Jew rather than throw stones at a winner."

Was Berni Madoff a "Winner" and "rise to the top"? He's certainlly rich and won the admiration of Wall Street and many famous people as a real "financial guru". Remember, we are supposed to worship these people as brilliant because they are rich. But from what I've heard, this guy even stole and lied to his own people who trusted him and invested their life's savings. I don't see much loyalty here do you?

To standshisground
To be fair, there are instances of gays being attacked purely out of dislike for their lifestyle. On 1Jan, four guys allegedly gang-raped a lesbian in California, taunting her about being a lesbian.

But I'd be willing to bet that more white folks get attacked for being white in the wrong area at the wrong time.

No matter WHAT you are, there is somebody in the world who would beat you up or kill you for it.

Nonetheless, I certainly agree that statistics should be carefully scrutinized in order to determine whether there is a growing trend of attacks against members of any particular group. I would be interested to see what percentage of gays are victims of violent crime every year, versus heteros. Of course we would not count domestic disputes among gay couples.

To GeminiGuy in FL
You said:

"How can you expect the Israelis to get along or trust a "terrorist group" to comply with anything or anybody when they brainwash their children almost from birth that they must be "martyred" by killing Jews. When they resort to having a Mickey Myrtr Mouse preach such hateful and disgusting diatribe, it's very obvious of their intentions. Take a look."

Thanks for the link. I abhor violence and would love all people to live in friendship, harmony peace and love. But when Israeli's use U.S. Helicopter gunships to mow down civilians and starve the Palestinians of basic human rights: sovereignty, food, water, medicine, don't the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves from that oppression? You may remember in 2006 that Israel used cluster bombs to magnify damage and kill children in Lebanon. You can find the link at Nader.org

I think if you or I were in the same place watching our neighbors murdered and people brutalized and occupied, we'd be mad as hell and fight back too. Israeli's kill Palestinians at a rate of about 100:1. How is this not a massacre when the land that Israel occupies is also the rightful property of the Palestinians as explained in my previous post?


To First
"Israeli's kill Palestinians at a rate of about 100:1."

The Palestinian Arabs launch hundreds or even thousands of attempts at mass murder against Israel every year. In 2008, they tried to kill mass numbers of Jews 3,278 times:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qas sam.htm

The success or failure of any given attack does NOT relieve them of the guilt for having tried. Their shoddy weapons, haphazard tactics, and superior Israeli civil defense account for the smaller Jewish casualties. But the kill ratio is DESPITE the Palestinian Arabs' best efforts at slaughter.

If a guy breaks into my house, begins shooting at me and *misses*, do I then NOT have the right to shoot him dead in self defense? No, the mere fact that he tried to kill me is sufficient grounds for employing deadly force in my own defense.

So it is with Israel.

If the Palestinian Arabs don't like bearing the brunt of the casualties, they can fix it by getting better weapons, employing better tactics, using for civil defense some of the vast sums that Pal Arab leaders sock away into private fortunes, or JUST STOP TRYING TO KILL JEWS WITH ROCKETS.

Talli2long
You said, "The success or failure of any given attack does NOT relieve them of the guilt for having tried".

With the mentality many liberals have, I wonder why they don't argue that attempted murder should not be a chargeable offense, at least criminally, if the would-be murderer didn't wind up doing any actual physical harm to his intended victim in the course of his action.

If a man tries to kill me by firing a whole magazine at me from his gun but is such an inept marksman that all of his many bullets miss me completely, I guess under the logic many liberals are approaching the present Israel-Hamas conflict with, he shouldn't have to face the prospect of possibly spending many years of his life in prison simply because he proved incompetent as a would-be murderer.

By the way, one thing I love about liberals in their hypocrisy about the whole notion of self-defense is that even those who wouldn't carry a gun themselves aren't averse to getting SOMEONE ELSE to do it ON THEIR BEHALF. Remember Rosie O'Donnell? She routinely denigrates those who want to be armed for self-defense purposes - yet she has no problem being protected herself by an armed bodyguard. And liberals who live in elite areas may not own guns themselves - but they routinely hire private-security firms who patrol their neighborhoods who carry the gun for them.

As I've said on several posts in prior days, one risk of initiating war with another party, as Hamas did in using Gaza as a missile launching pad against Israel, is that you may get back much worse than you give out. Compared to how many of THEIR people America's military killed on THEIR soil in the course of the Second World War, Nazi Germany's and Imperial Japan's killing of Americans on OUR soil was a drop in a bucket by comparison. Well, tough: THEY initiated war with us, not vice versa, took the risk I mentioned above - and lost. It's time for the Palestinians to learn this truth about war-making as well.

First
We all WISH we were in a utopian world. Just hit the "easy buttons". You have to either be on drugs or need some if you think that the IDF are using the Cobras to "mow down civillians". That is unless you mean the Hamas fighters (not a real army, but civillians). Where are the Hamas getting their AK47, antitank grenade launchers, and Grad rockets (all Russian made) So when these Hamas fighters are firing at the IDF from mosques, schools or apartment bulidings, guess what's going to happen. The people in Gaza were given ample warnings about what could come, so it's not like this was a surprize or anything. The cluster bombs you are refering to are only useful in open areas, where children should NOT be in a war. Do you have proof of that allegation? The Israelis aren't stupid and just let several hundred trucks in at a time thinking they are all food and medical supplies. Actually today they had a 3 hr halt of fighting just for that purpose. If Mexico were attack Texas with daily, multiple missle attacks, I think you know what would happen!?!? That 100:1 ratio.....is that ALL civllians, or???? Hamas fighters. I guess it comes down to who you think is more creditable. Me, I don't trust "terrorists"! Rightful property my pitooey! And why doesn't Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon take in all these poor refugees?????? The answer is........¿

To GeminiGuy in FL
False analogy between Texas and Mexico as Texas is legal U.S. property won by war. The nation of Palestine however was stolen by Israel. Isreal and its European citizens have no legal legitimate claim to the territory.

Going back to your analogy, lets look at the U.S. Conservative party under Bush has done in his 8 years of office. He has defended an amnesty policy to allow illegals to continually invade our nation, steal workers jobs, undercut unions, and wire money out of the country tax free. Even your "God" Ronald Reagan: gave the green light in 1986 "legalizing" illegals and opening the floodgates for the invasion. Now there are 12-20 million illegals in the USA in the black market economy, so I can see what Conservative America's response is: ignore the rule of law, grant amnesty for noncitizens, punish the American worker, delay, and slow the building of the fence to protect the nation, and ignore the billions that flow out of our nation by illegals. Even your guy Bush who is the truest Conservative ever endorses these policies of national destruction of the USA.

Why would Medved even ask...?
"What gives Palestinian victims their special status—a standing that brings with it a wildly disproportionate share of the world's concern and attention?"

Duh.

Palestinians kill Jews - what more would they need to garner sympathy from the "International Community"?

Clearly, each one is (potentially, until armed) a precious treasure worthy of commisseration...

- MuscleDaddy

Rightful Property
Bear with me here as I am merely pondering.
It seems to me that the Romans took the land from the Jews BEFORE Arabic Palestine. If you follow that thread, then the 'Palestinians' are squatters on land that was stolen from the Jews by the force of the legions, and therefore rightfully belongs to the Jewish people (not the other way around, First).
One more factor not being considered here by our secularist thinking. The Jewish people, according to the OT and the Torah, were given this land by God. Oh, I know, I know, it's an argument without corporeal substance. This fact, I am sure, is irrelevant to the Israelis. The other side is, likewise, driven by theology. Good luck getting that to mix. I don't care how much you shake up Italian dressing, the oil and vinegar just won't mix.(My apologies to any sensitive Italians out there.)

Superficial thinking
This is the problem with too many conservative commentators: superficial thinking.

It isn't the number of dead or wounded that brings attention, and anti-Semitism explains only part of the interest.

Even in the absence of the major media pushing the story -- they go where the story takes them based on assumed reader interest -- the battle In Gaza IS civilizational. It's a battle of eternal principles - good against evil, freedom against tyranny, justice against the forces of barbarism.

When the Israelis win it will be one of the rare victories for the first in each pair, so naturally people are interested. Those hoping for the second in each pair are even interested, since they lust for a successful reversion to barbarity.

First (of what)
OMG, I think that this is going to be a waste of time, plus I'm @ work. What I see is BDS, and a farrr lefty that has no hope...not just for our country as we can nothing right. Oh, thanks for telling me that I now have a "God" in Pres Reagan. At least he's not a false prophet and I won't go to hell!!!! Next time Canada launches rockets into
Minnesota....oh just forget it, that's not the USA anymore either!!!!!

Doug
"Here is a novel idea. If Hamas and the Palestinians are tired of the bloodshed and are hungry for peace, then just say no to terrorism.
"

Here's another novel idea. If Israel is really tired of rockets landing in their back yards, they can stop occupying gaza, take down the checkpoints, and stop building settlements. It's another way of saying no to terrorism, but it doesn't shed as much blood, so it's not as much fun.

It's a little Drummer boy thing
You see a dreamy night desert sky of vibrant pastel colors. It is the seasonal time for TV specials. The little drummer boy starts his song and an Israeli F 16 dives out of nowhere. Then in a defening puff of smoke the little drummer boy dissapears- only to reamerge a mangled hunk of flesh his drumstick grotesquly londged in his eye.

See what I am saying, you expect people to be slaughtered in the congo or in shrilanka, but not the Holy Land where "Love your neigbor as your self came from."

L'audace, l'audace, l'audace
WOW!

Napoleon has nothing on you, Michael!

You actually have the gall to state "What gives Palestinian victims their special status—a standing that brings with it a wildly disproportionate share of the world's concern and attention?"

A+ on Audacity.

F however, on accuracy.

MuscleDaddy at 3:07 ET today nails you perfectly as the myopic Zionist zealot you must be. In America today, despite centuries of wanton human slaughter and genocide across virtually every race, culture, sex and religion our species has to offer, NO culture has "established", "branded" and "marketed" its own historic persecution better than the Jews.

Micheal, grow up. From the "Holocaust" to "Concentration Camps" to "War Crimes" to "Gas Chambers", and including, literaly, the post-WWII creation of an entire Nation-state called "Israel", the Western World has been overwhelmingly versed and hence acutely attuned to the horrible misfortunes of your people. To now so cavalierly waive your hand at the attention given to the plight of the Palestinians, ESPECIALLY since Israel is at the very least complicit in that plight, is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.

You are repulsive. Really.

Koolmuse
Just when I was beginning to think this was the most amount of massed ignorance I had yet seen on TH, your post appeared.

You have definitely restored my faith in the continuing presence of human intelligence.

Thanks for writing it.

Well before 60 years ago, Muse
Romans invade the Jewish homeland, Judea in around 63 BC. Jewish uprising crushed and Jerusalem and its temple destroyed in 70 AD. Second Jewish uprising, (Bar Kokhba Revolt), ruthlessly crushed by Emperor Hadrian in 132-135 AD. Jews began to scatter throughout the known world.Islamic Arabs invade and drive out the Romans in the 7th century. they, in turn, are conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1516. It is interesting to note that, throughout all this, there has always been a Jewish presence, and centers of Jewish learning in this area; it has never been completely free of Jews.
So, who doesn't know what their writing about?

To USNbubblehead in NH
You said:

"One more factor not being considered here by our secularist thinking. The Jewish people, according to the OT and the Torah, were given this land by God. Oh, I know, I know, it's an argument without corporeal substance. This fact, I am sure, is irrelevant to the Israelis. The other side is, likewise, driven by theology. Good luck getting that to mix. I don't care how much you shake up Italian dressing, the oil and vinegar just won't mix.(My apologies to any sensitive Italians out there.)

No religious assertions have any legal merit and God will not stand as witness in a legal court of law to back anyone up. Therefore they are invalid.

Anyone could easily say that "God just told me so". According to that line of reasoning, I could claim "A divine revelation" and tell everyone here that God told me I should be ruler of the USA and everyone should pay taxes to me. These assertions are always private undemonstrable and have no merit.

Additionally if you follow your earlier line of reasoning, that Jews were there first thousands of years ago, then you should rightfully surrender ownership of your property and you should return it to the Native Americans because they were there first. The native people of Palestine (The Palestinians -which includes various religious groups including native Jews as well as Christians and Muslims) are the owners of the region. The state of Israel (while a creative gesture of good will because of the Holocaust) is nonetheless an illegal creation of U.S. empire building. The USA has no legal authority to create nations or manipulate other people's property in foreign lands.

Awww. It's Mousemuse!

How did things go at TOWNHALL today? Well, let's see.

First, we we're treated to Joseph Goebbels, alive and well and living in an underground cave in Illinois.

Next, we had "du". Not sure what to make of this one. Smarmy, perhaps.

And then came Mousemuse! Isn't that special?
Yes. Mousemuse. Can you picture him yelling at the computer as he hits the keys, cursing like a mad loon. Poor Mousemuse. He hates TOWNHALL so much he goes to his little room everynight and stamps his feet and pouts.

Koolmuse
"Palestine" was not a country prior to the Jews moving there.

LOL
Koolmuse, Joseph was praising you. You are both on the same side.

Goes to show how stupid you are, and how you cannot understand what you read.

William... I do not think it means...
No - actually, I was being serious.

Slaughter in Rwanda...
- UN busy issuing statements against Israel.

Russia invades Georgia...
- UN busy issuing statements against Israel.

Mugabe kills opponents - starves Zimbabwe...
- UN busy issuing statements against Israel.

Syria whacks former leader of Lebanon...
- UN busy issuing statements against Israel.

AhmaDinnerJacket calls for Israel to disappear in nuclear fireball...
- UN invites him onto the Security Council.

Seriously - all you have to do to get the nod from the UN is to speak-out-against or hit Israel.

All you need to garner their sympathy is to get hit-back BY Israel.

=========
Nevermind Medved - I thought it was self-serving of him to pretend he didn't know the answer already.

- MuscleDaddy

Charles...
Indeed - a point conveniently overlooked by many.

Personally, I refuse to call them "Palestinians" - I refer to them as "the former Egyptians/Jordanians".

- MuscleDaddy

Genocide and cultural displacement is...
wrong. And for Medved, of all people, to today try to prioritize cultural persecutions to the benefit of Jews is just as wrong.

My point MuscleDad is simply that there is no hierarchy that means anything to either the blown-to-bits baby of Palestine nor the Jew who was walked into a gas chamber.

To the victims there is an equality in Horror that Medved should have kept in mind instead of trying to keep score. Just an incredibly ill-conceived article.

T.C. and Charles
Yep, with such "luminaries" as koolmuse, du, and Joseph on THIS thread - and the ones who have shown up today on Malkin's and Bozell's threads, among others - it's as though the lunatic fringe blogs like DailyChaos and HuffandPuff and MorOn.org have perpetrated their own "Mariel boatlift" upon TownHall!

Complicit?
I see claims the Jews ar ecomplicit in Palestinian problems? Really/ 4/5 of "Palestine" (not so named until the British did so) became the state of Jordan, yet they will not allow the refugees in. The refugees, for that matter, are refugees because they left hoping for the destruction of the Jews, or their ancestors did. Palestinians who did not support the Arab League became Israeli citizens and they and their descendants remain there now as citizens, even in the Knesset. (As opposed to the PA where Jews are not allowed to buy property and people are killed for "collaboration" with Jews.)

So, how are the Jews "complicit"? Because they defend themselves? Because they inconveniently refused to die or flee?

Please explain.

Andrew, "complicit" used
there in the benign but irrefutable fact that the creation of Israel created a Palestinian displacement that has heralded the reprehensible acts of war perpetrated by both sides -- with absolute acknowledgment that Hamas terror is not to be weighed evenly with Israeli self-defense.

That is what I mean by complicity with regard to Medved. The dead Palestinian innocent matters just as much as the dead Israeli innocent. My issue, as already stated, is that Medved is trying to prioritize the plight of one over the other.

To First
"Let's not forget that as I mentioned in an earlier post that the land Israel occupies does not legally belong to it."

It doesn't? Who DOES it belong to? Jews bought legal title to land from Syrian and Ottoman Turkish landlords, who held legal title. The King of Jordan at that time worried that those same parties would sell even MORE land to Jews. This suggests that very much of the land was held legally by non-Palestinian Arabs, which squares well with British statements during the Mandate that such was the case.

Are you aware that those who live on a property are not necessarily those who hold legal title to it?

If the Palestinian Arabs were largely either tenant farmers, or even 'squatters', then they had no more legal right to the land than the Jews -- even less, since at least the Jews bought portions of the land, and more was granted by the UN. What was the UN's authority to give it away? International agreement, which is certainly more compelling than the lack of title enjoyed by squatters.

And let us recall that the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza would still be living peacefully in their homes (as many Palestinian Arabs CONTINUE to do in Israel) had they not launched an unprovoked attempt at ethnic cleansing, against people who were residing on PURCHASED land in 1948. The Jews did not set out to displace anyone.


TC of 10:36
Don't forget to bring lots of money and spend lavishly. :-D Only the sunshine is free.

To Douglas
"They have a full right to fight back against the Jews because the whole area originally belonged to the Arabs."

The Jewish historical claim predates the Arab one. Thus, by your own logic, the Israelis have the right to force the Arabs out of the whole area. Nice argument, neighbor.

pretty non-chalant about dropping bombs
I hope the US never has the attitude of Medved where:
occupying a country and having an entire peoples live in apathied is considered much ado about nothing.
dropping bombs on civilians is considered much ado about nothing.
God forbid

rock
Is it your assumption that the Israeli government is just mean? Or that they lust for the blood of guiltless women and children? Becaust it seems to me, if that is their motivation, their results are pathetic. They could be slaughtering palestinians by the thousands every month, were that their goal.

As for occupying "their country", let's break that down: First, it is not a country. It is a territory. Secondly, it never belonged to the palestinians. Prior to Israel taking control, Gaza belonged to Egypt. Israel has since offered to give it back to Egypt. Egypt's response? "No thanks." When Israel pulled out of Gaza, and gave it over to the palestinians, it was the first time they had EVER been in control of the land. So naturally, to express their gratitude, they began launching rockets into Israel the following day. All while operating from schools and hospitals like cowards. Frankly, I am disgusted with folks like you who know nothing about the history of that region. You regurgitate nonsense, telling us how the palestinians once owned all the land before jews swept in and stole it from them. That, version of history is pure fantasy. Read up on it.

Douglas
You are suffering from what mental health experts refer to as a self reinforcing dilusion. They make medication for that.

Koolmuse getting a tan
from the sun he thinks shines out Obama's butt!

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

.............
-------For example the greatest Genocide was of the ARMENIANS,in 1915..........Alex------

Let me guess, you're a liberal and think you're “enlightened”? You should have paid attention in history class instead of picking your nose and doodling. 1.5 million Armenias were murdered out of a population of 2.5 million under the Ottoman Empire. 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust.

Some close Armenian friends of mine here in Los Angeles started a band and when they played the clubs, before being signed to a label, they would show a 5 min documentary about the Armenian genocide. Hopefully some people paid attention.


------why we tlak about the millions of Jews that died and not the millions of Gypsy's or the millions of Russians, during WW II...........threepines--------

40 million Russians were killed during WWII. I'm a Russian immigrant- also a Jew- and both my grandfathers were in the Red Army. Although virtually all Russians, military and civilian, fought together to defeat the nazi machine. My grandmother was a doctor but she and her female colleagues spent a good time shoveling coal onto the trains to get ammunition and food to the front lines. The Battle of Stalingrad, known as the bloodies battle in human history, cost a total of 2 million lives [Russians and nazis]. This wartime death is in no way comparable to the systematic extermination of an unarmed civilian populace, the Jews.

As far as the gypsies, it's leftist propaganda in an attempt to diminish the Holocaust. The death toll for gypsies was in the tens of thousands, not a hundred thousand and nowhere near a million.

The G.S.
Doesn't it shock you to read so many posters wanting these "animals" and "vermin" wiped out "to the sea"? Or that, the children deserve to die because, Hamas won a narrow political victory? Stalingrad and Gaza were both blockaded and starved, is that an act of war?

Also, besides gypsies, millions of Poles were killed, as well as homosexuals.

MM

No big deal?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/ 4013747/Gaza-attacks-in-pictures.html?image=11

"Gaza medics describe horror of strike which killed 70
Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house."

.............
Daft, hamas should be exterminated, not the entire palestinian population. I think I can safely say you know where I stand on this. I make no apologies for killing terrorists. And if the terrorists are hiding among the civilian population, well, the palestinians understood who they were voting for. Hamas' charter calls for the ultimate destruction of Israel.

Hamas does not want a two state solution, they want a one state solution. Here I completely agree with hamas, we just disagree on who should hold claim to all of Israel. Fine, lets settle it on the battlefield.

G.S.
I didn't put is well, I meant you must have read on this blog, posters saying to pretty much just nuke em all. And I know, some of those terrorists do have their families near by, but I've seen plenty of videos on you tube showing out right criminal behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQyIKyd2gqA


Btw, I have so much respect for former Russian immigrants. I know one elderly lady whose father died in a Siberian slave camp. She actuall knew Condi Rice at Stanford. Also, I've read so many times how moving Russian troop singing is, or was, someday I want to experience that.

.............
----I didn't put is well, I meant you must have read on this blog, posters saying to pretty much just nuke em all.-----

Taft, I'm not for nuking them but I am for a forced expulsion from Gaza. Fatah is behaving for now but ultimately will revert to terrorism, as they always have. So I would probably expell the palestinians from Judea and Samaria [West Bank] as well.

----Btw, I have so much respect for former Russian immigrants.----

Don't make me start being nice towards you by playing on my Jewish guilt. Thanks for the nice words.

----I know one elderly lady whose father died in a Siberian slave camp. She actuall knew Condi Rice at Stanford. Also, I've read so many times how moving Russian troop singing is, or was, someday I want to experience that.----

The stories from that era are remarkable; from the depths of depravity to the triumph of the human spirit, it was all there, as it is in all wars. If you're in the L.A area and want to experience the Russian singing and drinking environment, with plenty of vodka of course, you'll find some restaurants on Fairfax and Melrose. Open only Fri, Sat, Sun.

The G.S.
Hey, thanks for your post.

Medved: how many have to die for it
to become much ado. How many buildings and infrastructure have to be destroyed. how much oppression has to take place. Please quantify these. Is 1000 enough? 500 children? what is your threshold from the safety of Seattle.
what a callous idiot this Medved is. He just makes the situation worse with articles like these.

I can't sleep
with the sound of all the anti-semitic goosestepping from the resident Jew haters.


-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Kerry: you are confused

Joseph from IL: #19
I haven't heard the story about the "human soap" the Nazis allegedly made from their victims, but I HAVE heard about the "human lampshades"! They were a piece of evidence in the Nuremberg Trials, after WW2. The wife of the Dachau camp commandant was caught red-handed with them in her possesion. (And both later hanged, after trial.) Far from being disproved, they were exibits, at trial, of the base barbarity of the Nazis.

The Soviet prosecutor placed before the court an exhibit with a bar of soap. Of course the verdict did not mention this charge at all !
Now w/r to the lampshade: Gen. Lucius Clay confirmed that it was a lampshade made from goatskin .

Bernie Madoff & the holocaust
Numerous sophisticated investors were duped by Madoff because they did not verify the claims!
Millions of unsuspecting members of the public
have been saturated with a story of epic proportions ( mass asphyxiations by an insecticide which was to do double duty: first as an insecticide for delousing and then in an improvisation as a deadly lethal human killing agent). Revisionist historians in which I include scientists (chemists) have researched this claim and have found it without merit scientifically: in other words nonsense. I will only remind readers that during the WW1 the allies made claims that the
Germans were making fertilizer from battlefiled corpses . Truth is the first casualty of War : please read Lord Ponsoby's Falsehood in Wartime.

To bob
"Becaust it seems to me, if that is their motivation, their results are pathetic. They could be slaughtering palestinians by the thousands every month, were that their goal."

Actually, given the power of modern weaponry, the Israelis could *easily* kill thousands every DAY. But those whose only idea of military weaponry is that derived from Hollywood, are capable of believing that the Israelis are being careless or even deliberately murderous. The actual fact is that, given the crowded nature of Gaza settlements and the fact that Hamas is firmly and intrinsically embedded in Gaza society, the civilian casualty figures are actually proof that Israel is acting with commendable restraint and great care in the application of force.

To Wrat Wrangler
You are in error, friend. They don't hate Jews, they hate ISRAELI JEWS and CONSERVATIVE JEWS. American Jews who vote the liberal ticket earn their approval.

Tell me about it!!
Tallil2long,

It's like the white liberals who used to be on WABC in NYC: Lynn Samuels and Joyless Blowhard (now on the View). Both are white ultra libs and have the GALL to look at James Golden, Star Parker, Michael Steele, J.C. Watts, Armstrong Williams or Walter E. Williams and proclaim them "not really black"!!

My cousin is a very liberal Jew who won't even read anything by Dennis Prager or Michael Medved because I like them. To her they're "crazy neocon Jews who should all go to Israel and enlist".

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

standshisground
Well, actually...virtually ALL TH articles and the resultant threads recount an unprecedented victim mentality! Heteros are convinced gay people victimize then constantly, even by just getting married or serving in uniform.


The entire Prop 8 campaign asserted victimization of children and churches who refused to marry gay couples.

TH claimed victimization of Mormons and the complete ruin of their church because of all those riots and firings that gay people caused after Prop. 8 passed.

The victim mentality is strong and pervasive HERE and everywhere. It's just heterosexuals hijacking it as real, rather than perceived which perverts the entire definition of victim.


What you believe regarding median incomes and so on, smack familiar of resentment of Jews for that same perception.

You resent it? Why?
You think such income is undeserved and gay people got it at the expense of...?

That median is true of ALL people WITHOUT CHILDREN. Check your facts, bub. Not just the ones that make you think you're a VICTIM of gay people.

But even if triumphs of the last several decades by gay people isn't APPRECIATED, it's laid on the heap of being heteros being victimized by 'the vast homosexual agenda' or 'militant homosexual activists' and resented all the way as if obtained violently and unfairly and at the expense of heterosexuals.

It's just that we've seen this before. Dominant cultures resentful of minorities and women gaining more visibility and integration.

It wasn't wrong for that to happen, neither was the minority wrong to hold the mirror up to a society that applauds itself on it's ideals of a fairness and equal justice.

I'm just a person concerned about our society living up to those standards that have served us well before, and trying to deny them...when we know doing so is a failure of morality and justice.


talli2
And rightfully, those Jews should take those gay Palestinians in.
I have a personal friend, named S. he is an amazing and talented dancer and playwright.
He wrote a play called "Shalom/Salaam" about Palestinian professor who falls in love with a Jewish one.
The backdrop is this conflict and he won asylum because of the power of the piece and his immense talent.

I see many documentaries about this issue where I volunteer at the Simon Weisenthal Center, and meet people on either side of it.
The gay folks are the cultural ambassadors most often that can created films and other works that do more bridge building.

Unfortunately, gay people are so underappreciated over all and it's a shame.
But where they ARE appreciated, much good work can and IS done.

The tragedy that Jews know and gay people understand is as I said: a minority under siege for all time, has a very difficult time of it convincing the world not to kill them or wish they didn't exist.

To du
I hear you, neighbor. It is well,of course, that our besieged homosexual Americans are not routinely targeted by thousands of high-explosive munitions every year...

oh and tali2
For the last time, please, please PLEASE...stop calling it "practicing a lifestyle".
Living as a Christian or gourmet cook is practicing a lifestyle.

Living as a gay person is the same as living as a heterosexual, it's about BEING one's inherency.
It's having an ATTRIBUTE that IS as inherent as YOURS with regard to your sexual orientation.

One's orientation is not a lifestyle. Defining a gay person that way isn't right or fair, you don't define heterosexuality that way.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

The fact that it's an attribute shared by about 10% or more of the entire world's population and ALWAYS has, is why.
Even one's religious belief doesn't have that distinction, even though lifestyle is exactly what it is.

Unpopular minorities tend to be defined by the culture that dominates & oppresses them, rather than them having the option to do that for themselves.
Even by name.
How many names have blacks had in this culture as an identity?

It's heteros that demand to define gay people and they don't care how, even if it's wrongly.'
So don't you do it too.

Fair?

Why Palestian victims get more attention
In response to Michael Medved's article about Palestinian victims getting all the press - the Jews lost the sympathy of the world when they kicked the stuffing out of the combined Arab armies in '67. Any sympathy remaining from their desemation by the Nazis and their willing helpers before and during WW 2 vanished during those 6 days. Gone was the Jew as underdog -the modern Maccabees made it ok again to hate Jews, now seen as aggressive bullies against a new underdog, the so-called Palestinians (actually citizens of Jordan in the West Bank and Egypt in Gaza.) After what we have seen in the past two weeks, is it any wonder that the Egyptians didn't want Gaza back when Israel returned the Sinai peninsula?

The Common Denominator...
Islamist Groups are Responsible for
worldwide terror. There are numerous radical islamist groups, all with the same agenda: bringing down Israel and the West, thereby eliminating any barrier to their ultimate goal of bringing the world under Islam's yoke.

Radical Immams make no secret of this. Any youtube search will make that clear.
Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas, are groups that we are familiar with, however there are many in the shadows, such as those who committed the atrocities in Mumbai.

Al-Shabaah(the youth)is a Somoli based group(the pirates of the gulf of Aiden). This group has attacked and kidnapped westerners and threatened international peace keepers.

Jaish-e-Mohammad and Hizbul Mujahideen of Pakistan/Kashmir: responsible for beheading Daniel pearl and attacks against India's civilians and members of parliment.

Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islam: of Bagladesh, responsible for many bombings in that area and attempts to assassinate the country's Prime Minister.

There are Hamas and Al-Qaeda cells within every major city of the U.S.(Homeland security study)waiting for their orders.
Those who blame actions of the U.S or Israel on this resurrgence of Radical Islamists fail to see the big picture evidenced by their actions in many nation/states having no relation or ties to the U.S or Israel.

There are an estimated 110 million Radical Islamists worldwide. They hold the common belief that killing infidels(any non Muslim)will ingratiate them to Allah. They riot and murder over cartoons, a speach given by the Pope quoting a medieval scholar whom even then questoned Islam's violent nature, A movie depicting the plight of women of Islam(Van Gogh)... should we not be concerned?

Hamas and Bibi...2 peas in a pod?
Is it bias…or just bad reporting and analysis at the Washington Post?
Check out what I have to say about the comparisons being made between Livni and Fatah (the peacemakers) and Bibi and Hamas (the terrorists)...
http://scattershooting.wordpress.com/

can't have it both ways
you can see from your own numbers, the Christian hutus in Rwanda, or the Tamil hindus both have killed far more people than Palestinian militants. None of those deaths get reported as much as those mere 3 israelis killed. In fact looking at all the reponses, one can clearly see the complete lack of interest in what's happening in Sri lanka. It is the same ol' pal-bad Israel-good

when you give so much more importance to killing of mere 3 Israelis, then you can't escape the more importance given to killings of 1000s by Israelis.

Good news is that
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