Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Missing Ingredient For Gay Marriage: Women, Not Weddings
by Michael Medved
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



In a controversial recent piece in the Wall Street Journal (“Gay Marriage is Good for America”, June 22) Jonathan Rauch hails the benefits of matrimony in terms that most conservatives will enthusiastically endorse.

“Marriage makes you, on average, healthier, happier and wealthier,” he writes. “If you are a couple raising kids, marrying is likely to make them healthier, happier and wealthier, too. Marriage is our first and best line of defense against financial, medical and emotional meltdown.”

No fair-minded observer can argue against any of these observations, but at this point Mr. Rauch makes a logical leap that involves some neat rhetorical sleight-of-hand. Concerning the institution of marriage, he suggests that “its absence can be calamitous, whether in inner cities or gay ghettos. In 2008, denying gay Americans the opportunity to marry is not only inhumane, it is unsustainable.”

The weak point in this argument is the attempt to use the term “marriage” when he really means “long-term relationships.” Not all committed, long-term relationships are marriages. And not all marriages result in committed, long-term relationships (unfortunately).

In other words, it’s true that the absence of lasting relationships has proven “calamitous” for inner cities, but the heterosexual couples in those communities enjoy full access to the institution of marriage. The problem of “baby mamas” and their irresponsible impregnators doesn’t reflect a denial of “marriage rights”—it stems from a lack of commitment.

It’s not “marriage” – some magical status granted by the government – that serves to make people “healthier, happier and wealthier.” It’s the behavior associated with the marital ideal that brings benefits to couples and their children. That behavior doesn’t require official sanction – any more than official sanction guarantees such behavior.

Jonathan Rauch begins his column with reference to Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon, “the pioneering gay rights activists who have been a couple for more than 50 years,” and who became the first lesbians to wed under California’s new dispensation. The elderly pair told USA TODAY that they weren’t even interested in marriage until other activists “pushed them into it.” Did their romantic life together (apparently enjoying the manifold benefits of a long-lasting, committed relationship) somehow suffer because the state of California never before granted them a marriage license?

On the other side of the ledger, consider some dysfunctional couple, gay or straight, with the lovers engaged in the angry, selfish, unreliable behavior that destroys relationships. Will a wedding license from city hall somehow redeem or stabilize this shaky partnership?

The problem with the Rauch argument and the biggest threat from same sex marriage itself involves flagrant distortion of the “magic ingredient” for lasting, socially beneficial relationships.

That ingredient isn’t governmental authorization or support. It is, rather, the uniting of male and female strengths and values in a durable combination.

Men and women are different –profoundly, irreducibly, eternally. It is ridiculous and dishonest to suggest they are interchangeable in relationships. This undeniable truth obliterates the notion that a guy who takes another guy as life partner instead of a woman is just expressing his personal preference – like choosing a blonde over a brunette, or a Latino over an Asian.

Neither race nor hair color determines an individual’s essence, his or her mode of expressing and experiencing humanity. Gender, on the other hand, influences everything – and all recent research (without exception) brings new revelations about its physiological, psychological, intellectual and even spiritual importance.

A couple that blends male and female is fundamentally different from a couple with two men – just as that male-only relationship is distinct from a partnership of two women.

American society has awakened to the terrible costs and dangers of fatherless households – and Barack Obama delivered an eloquent church sermon about the problem on father’s day.

He neglected to mention, however, that every child-rearing lesbian couple is, by definition, a fatherless household, just as every gay male couple is even more unthinkable (in terms of raising offspring) as a motherless household.

This obvious fact makes clear the fatuity in Jonathan Rauch’s suggestion that it’s a wedding license that makes the children raised by married partners “healthier, happier and wealthier.” Wouldn’t the presence of a mother constitute a more important element than government recognition? Wouldn’t the constant influence of a father (along with a mother) count for more than the approval of a city hall clerk?

Consider some of the high profile heterosexual couples who have refused to get married. I don’t endorse the politics of Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon, but given their long-standing and apparently stable commitment, I don’t think their kids have suffered because they never legalized their relationship.

By the same token, I don’t believe that the children of Rosie O’Donnell and her partner will be able to make up for the lack of a father’s love through a change of bureaucratic policy in California or any other state.

When Jonathan Rauch laments the “calamitous” situation in “gay ghettos” he provides an eloquent description of a dark reality. He says “it is a world marked by heightened fear of loneliness or abandonment in crisis or old age; a world in some respects not even civilized because marriage is the foundation of civilization. This was the world I grew up in. The AIDS quilt is its monument.”

He wants his readers to believe that the missing factor in this dysfunctional subculture is governmental sanction for marriage when in truth that absent element is women.

The promiscuity, instability and irresponsibility he rightly associates with gay male enclaves don’t apply to lesbians or their neighborhoods. Statistics indicate that even without marriage licenses, lesbian relationships already prove at least as stable and lasting as opposite-sex connections (consider Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon).

It’s the female perspective and influence, not legal status, that civilizes couples (just ask my wife) as well as societies.

The problem with the Jonathan Rauch prescription is that he seeks to heal the ills of gay male culture and relationships with a meaningless solution (a marriage license) at the same time that he ignores and in fact denies the one addition that makes a lasting, eternal difference – the melding of male and female in long-term, loving commitment.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Michael Medved's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Medved:
I happened to read Jonathan Rauch's "controversial" (as you so baitingly put it) essay on why gay marriage is the healthy, yes, even conservative!, option for America in the Wall Street Journal.

I found the entire column beautifully argued, candidly written, such a serious and dynamic treatise on why gay marriage is, in fact, GOOD for this society, good for the institutional of marriage itself.


My problem, Michael, here on this thread, is that both you and your wife have made a virtual franchise, a mini-cottage industry out of espousing why gay marriage ia threat to society, even a threat TO YOUR OWN STRAIGHT MARRIAGE. You are not about to look at his wonderful essay through fresh eyes. Your position is dug in. You're stuck in the trenches of outmoded thinking. Gays have been ostrasized, their behaviour co-signed to public restrooms and parks in the 1940's and 1950's when homosexuality was still illegal. The times have changed. Gays obviously want to move far beyond those ghetto-ized behaviour patterns. The US Supreme Court has ruled that gay sex is every bit as legal as straight sex. ERGO... if you are gay, what exactly is wrong with wanting to settle down with a partner, adopt a kid (or, like Mary Cheney, have one through artificial insemination?), join the human race.


Gays entering into marriage and into monogamous relationships is GOOD for society. Teenaged gays kids in high school can learn to direct their energies to marriage and family like everybody else. This is a wonderful thing.

What does God say?
The respected Anglican theologian, John Stott, states, "the intention of the Creator means His original intention. What this was Jesus tells us and Jesus confirmed: 'At the beginning the Creator "made them male and female" and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." So they are no longer two, but one.' Then Jesus added his personal endorsement and deduction: 'Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.' In other words, God created humankind male and female; God instituted marriage as a heterosexual union; and what God has thus united, we have no liberty to separate. This three fold action of God established that the only context which he intended for the 'one flesh' experience is heterosexual monogamy, and that a homosexual partnership (however loving and committed it may claim to be) is 'against nature' and can never be considered as a legitimate alternative to marriage."



Medved
I couldn't agree with you more.

Marriage
Michael, you make a great argument for getting the government out of the marriage business completely.

Mike,
One other.

I kept wondering WHY such a well-argued piece that details how gay marriage strengthens all marriages, the very IDEA of marriage, (strengthening society through families, giving the sexual impulses a "safe harbor", etc), could be labeled as "controversial". Maybe it is precisely BECAUSE it is so lucid and common-sensical that social cons such as yourself feel threatened enough to single it out for examination.


In an offhand way, though, you admit it has merit: you found very little to attack in it, so you go after the stray sentence here and there and then filibuster. It's the OMISSION, the silence you demonstrate towards the bulk of the argument that gives hope that maybe others found it persuasive also.

I hope the same old consortium of Townhall posters takes the time (and trouble) of actually reading "Gay Marriage is Good for America". Otherwise, we'll get the same damned bigoted, reflexive, anti-gay nonsense that usually dominates the multitude of anti-gay marriage columns here at TH (so much for diversity of conservative opinion).

Will
This is a sad day for the institution of marriage and a sad day for our society.

I am not even going to argue why because you are so "dug in" to your own position that because it feels good and you desire to then it must be ok. Just because you CAN do it does not make it right!!!

There is no GOOD that will come of same-sex marriage unless you believe that marriage losing its relevence in society is good.

And why don't you ask Mary Cheney where the father of her child is? Even the ultra-liberal Barack Obama acknowledges the need for children to have fathers.

Divorce Attorneys Should Be Thrilled
If 60% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce and the writer believes that heterosexual marriage is the answer to relationships for the gay community then he should also balance the scales out by including that the only thing that the gay community hasn't had to endure like the rest of us after relationships break up is the physical, financial, and emotional devastation of divorce court that can last for years and put you in the poor house - so congratulations to all those who will now venture into the same judicial nightmare as the rest of America's couples who signed on the dotted line because once they were thrilled to say I do, too and then they files for divorce with the state because a marriage license is a state license at at that point, the state owns you, your assets, and your kids and will tell you how high to jump and what you can have an can't have! Congratulations on being so brave!!

The trend continues
When the government began to replace fathers with welfare checks; when Hollywood began to glamorize deviant behavior - from drug abuse to violence to sexual promiscuity; when people began to think in terms of moral relativism... some of us missed seeing the tragic but unavoidable consequences.

Someday we may look back on the 'sanctioning' of homosexual "marriage" and realize that it was destined to become the final blow to the family unit in America.

Such sanctioning is a departure from normal social mores so radical that it may just shake the foundation of society so severly that "family" may not endure.

Will it? We won't know for many years to come. But as surely as E=mc2 led to the atomic age, any major shift in morality will lead to something revolutionary.

Of course unlike some, I don't believe that all revolutions are good. Some are bad. Very, very bad.

Gov't has to be in or out,....
of recognizing marriage period.

Currently traditional married couples' taxes are subsidized based on the needs of shared household expenses, children, exc. Do advocates of gay marriage really need gov't recognition in order fortify their commitment to each other as Mr. Medved seems to imply? He is in the weeds with this assumption and it gets away from the real issue.

If gov't is going to be in the business of subsidizing marriage than rights should be equal for all individuals. Realistically the gov't should have nothing to do with marriage as it isn't to be found anywhere in the Constitution, or it should at the very most be a state issue.

Marriage is a religous/social ceremony. If a church wants to marry a gay couple great, grand, deal with it. But benefits to all married couples should be standard across the board rather then to favor one group over another, or just eliminated completely. Collectivist ideas of favoring one group over another or creating a law against a group another group disagrees with goes against traditional conservative/republican values based in the freedom of individualism and the tenets of our Constitution.

Those of you proposing religous arguments I doubt will ever get this philosophy.

Gov't has to be in or out,....
of recognizing marriage period.

Currently traditional married couples' taxes are subsidized based on the needs of shared household expenses, children, exc. Do advocates of gay marriage really need gov't recognition in order fortify their commitment to each other as Mr. Medved seems to imply? He is in the weeds with this assumption and it gets away from the real issue.

If gov't is going to be in the business of subsidizing marriage than rights should be equal for all individuals. Realistically the gov't should have nothing to do with marriage as it isn't to be found anywhere in the Constitution, or it should at the very most be a state issue.

Marriage is a religous/social ceremony. If a church wants to marry a gay couple great, grand, deal with it. But benefits to all married couples should be standard across the board rather then to favor one group over another, or just eliminated completely. Collectivist ideas of favoring one group over another or creating a law against a group another group disagrees with goes against traditional conservative/republican values based in the freedom of individualism and the tenets of our Constitution.

Those of you proposing religous arguments I doubt will ever get this philosophy.

Yes amendment for traditional Marriage!
Yes on constitutional amendment for traditional marriage.
From a secular point of view, gay marriage has an impact on straight marriage, which of course is a bedrock traditional institution. And there is a good reason why American society is built around the traditional heterosexual home. As a societal stabilizer, traditional marriage deserves a special place in our national life. Homosexuality is an alternative situation. There are many other alternative situations, such as polygamy, triads, etc. But the United States is under no obligation to change the traditional legal definition of marriage so everybody can feel good about themselves.
Americans overwhelmingly support the special status heterosexual marriage has in the United States. There is no compelling reason to alter that status, especially if the states approve legal partnerships so that citizens are not denied things like hospital visitations, participation in end-of-life decision making, and insurance coverage. We look at what is best for the country. We can see the decency in respecting all legal partnerships Americans choose for themselves. But altering the traditional fabric of society is not necessary in order to do that. Proposition 22 was the peoples voice, but four activists judges over ruled the will of millions of people of California.

The Wrath of God
Leviticus 18:22-30 (KJV)
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. [24] Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: [25] And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. [26] Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: [27] (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) [28] That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. [29] For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. [30] Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Homosexuality is Sin
Luke 17:29 (KJV)
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

2 Peter 2:6 (KJV)
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 1:7 (KJV)
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Institution Of Marriage!
Well Mr. Medved you sure told Jonathan Rauch, marriage is ideally between a man and a woman and regardless of societal changes, it's the only way, too go.
With that said, and all the love shown in these straight marriages, my lawyer friend down the street made more money last year on divorces than foreclosures.

Wow
Seems we have some theocrats in the house.

Separation of church and state anyone? Quotes from religous text bear zero weight on this issue. It may for you, but just because it does, does not give you the right to impose your beliefs on others. If you think it does then you are a collectivist DEMOCRAT, not a freedom loving Republican. I'm ashamed to share my party with some of you.

If you want a theocracy though I hear there's nice little country in the middle east called Iran.

Terry
If you're going to go out of your way to quote Leviticus and the "abomination" on gay sex, please list the OTHER prohibitions in Leviticus: the eating of pork, shellfish, rabbit, of meat containing blood or fat, of clothing of more than one type of fabric, cutting the beard or hair.


YES. That's right. Gay sex is as sinful as eating pork and cutting your beard. Eating pork, rabbit and shellfish is an "ABOMINATION"! IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THAT BOOK OF LEVITICUS, the part you crazies always omit when you rush to post the homosexuality part.

That's a very disingenuous way to transmit your hatred. Post ALL the prohibitions or none of them.

alsinging-whatever et al.
Geesch, such ignorance is amazing. Civilizations, all civilizations, needed two basic institutions before they functioned. A man/woman marriage and the resulting cohesive family was/is number one. The second required institution was slavery.

Geesch, maybe you're right. However, slavery takes many forms.

Yes, I've always been confused at human behavior, but it's the only one I've got.

The World Is Not Flat
“It’s not “marriage” – some magical status granted by the government – that serves to make people “healthier, happier and wealthier.”

“That ingredient isn’t governmental authorization or support. It is, rather, the uniting of male and female strengths and values in a durable combination.”

A few sentences from the topic “Why Do People Marry” from a heavy text called ‘Human Sexuality’ are quite interesting.

“Not until the nineteenth century did the notion of love as a basis of marriage become widespread in Western society.”

“Marriage provides a sense of emotional and psychological security, however, and opportunities to share feelings, experiences, and ideas with someone with whom one forms a special attachment. Desires for companionship and intimacy are key goals in marriage today”.

“Broadly speaking, those people who want to get married do so because they believe they will be happier if they get married.”

Mr. Medved, we as a people treat homosexuals as second-class citizens when we don’t accept that homosexuality is not a moral choice but is a state of being. And marriage (with its associated benefits and privileges granted by government) denied to homosexuals relegates them to second-class citizenship in the face of our best science and medicine.

History will judge this matter – but the tide seems to be turning against your arguments.


Oh, those crazy guys
"Missing Ingredient For Gay Marriage: Women, Not Weddings"

Well, not when the gay marriage is between two women.

It's interesting that Medved seems to defend lesbians as being capable of sustaining the committed relationships he so values. With straights getting divorced at a rate I have read to be as high as 60%, maybe he's right that the problem is those crazy commitment-phobic men. Perhaps he should suggest that women "choose" to become gay. Since all the So-Cons out there who insist that gays choose to be gay, they should expect this to be an easy thing to do.

Fortunately, as someone who firmly knows I was born straight, I don't have to "choose" anything. The more confused (or dare I say conflicted) will find this harder to ascertain.

Surely, we will soon have a rant from Louie about sterile gays in answer to this column. Like a bad lunch, he just keeps coming up on, but only on the gay stories. What do you tthink that says about him?

Add marriage to the list ...
..of things ruined when government began tampering with it. First government altered it with no-fault divorce and it's been downhill ever since.

That to me is the strongest argument for getting government out of marriage entirely.

By the way, taxes were constitutionally never meant to be used to manipulate/subsidize desired behavior at either end of the political spectrum.

Your religion is your business
People keep quoting the bible, like that's going to influence anyone. Only religious fanatics are opposed to homosexuality. People who aren't religious fanatics don't use the bible as their standard of truth, and therefore do not oppose homosexuality, since it is no more harmful than heterosexuality. To the best of their ability, non-fanatics use reason as their standard of truth. Human reason may be limited, but it is much better than superstition and xenophobia when it comes to reaching a consensus. When we use reason, we at least try to figure out fair solutions to real problems. That is something Townhall posters cannot seem to understand. They are upset because they feel marginalized from mainstream political discourse, but they rightfully should be marginalized insofar as they represent a threat to non-fanatics' personal and civil liberties. They have the right to practice their religion, with whatever restrictions and rituals that entails. Why, why, why are they not content with this? Why are they constantly trying to get the whole country to get on board with their retrograde agenda? Why do they think anyone is impressed with the same five barbaric bible verses they keep quoting?

Formerly
I fail to see your logic. Civilizations only need to propogate and create order (rule of law) to function. Mankind has done this well for thousands of years and I think we can all agree that childbirth does not require marriage, although I fully agree it's preferable.

You're right too, slavery does take many forms. Institutionalized religion being the highest form of intellectual slavery, as seen in this thread.

Reply to Will 12:59 AM - Part 1
You criticized Mr. Medved for only focusing on a “stray sentence.” Well he did a good job. You wanted a more detailed look at Rauch’s article and from someone who actually read it. I read his article and find it weak in several areas.

Agree: “Marriage is the foundation of civilization”
Issue: Same-sex marriage has never been a part of civilization

Agree: “Marriage is a contract a couple makes with their community.”
Issue: Most communities do not want to make a marriage contract with same-sex couples. See the number of states making constitutional amendments defining marriage as between one man and one woman.

Agree: “Marriage makes you, on average, healthier, happier and wealthier. If you are a couple raising kids, marrying is likely to make them healthier, happier and wealthier, too. Marriage is our first and best line of defense against financial, medical and emotional meltdown.”
Issue: So what proof exists that shows marriage will make gays happier?

Statement: “Because parents want happy children, communities want responsible neighbors, employers want productive workers, and governments want smaller welfare caseloads, society has a powerful interest in recognizing and supporting same-sex couples.”
Issue: So recognizing and supporting same-sex couples is the answer to societies problems?

Statement: “Conservatives often say same-sex marriage should be prohibited because it does not exemplify the ideal form of family. They should consider how much less ideal an example gay couples will set by building families and raising children out of wedlock.”
Issue: Actually, conservatives do not believe gay couples should raise families in or out of wedlock. Why do you think Catholic adoption agencies are shutting down when forced to recognize gay couples as a legitimate “family.”

Statement: “Nowadays, even opponents of same-sex marriage generally concede it would be good for gay people.”
Issue: Says who?

Reply to Will 12:59 AM - Part 2
Statement: “What if gay marriage becomes a vehicle for polygamists who want to marry multiple partners”
Issue: This is a logical step. A man says, “I love this man and want to marry him. Do not be inhumane and deny marriage.” Then a man says, “I love two women, I want to marry both. Do not be inhumane and deny marriage.” And then, “I love this woman and that man, I want to marry both. Do not be inhumane and deny marriage.” If love of another and a desire of a relationship is the only defining factor of a marriage this is what you will get.

Agree: “the Constitution provides robust protections for religious freedom.”
Issue: Do Catholic adoption organizations have religious freedom to reject applications from gay couples? They are FORCED to accept ideas contrary to their beliefs or stop a much needed service. If a gay couple wants to adopt go to another agency!!!

Statement: “We wonder how many heterosexuals would give up their own….”
Issue: This is exactly what we feel like we are doing by accepting same-sex marriage!

Statement: “America needs more marriages, not fewer, and the best way to encourage marriage is to encourage marriage, which is what society does by bringing gay couples inside the tent.”
Issue: Mr. Rauch misses this altogether. He misses the important component of commitment.

Marriage is about procreation and providing a stable environment to raise children. Marriage denotes a commitment between a man and a woman, to God (hence the term holy matrimony) and the community to procreate and raise a family. See about.com on marriage “Marriage lay at the heart of early modern society. It created the basic social unit, the household: the site of childrearing, economic production, and mutual care and affection.” A same-sex couple can NOT have a child without the assistance of the opposite sex. So the marriage of a same-sex couple goes against what many hold as the main purpose of marriage.

Two points
The point Mr. Medved was making regarding lesbians is that because they are both women, and it is the women in relationships that seem to hold it together, the lesbians seem to have longer, more committed relationships. But, you overlooked the point that though the lesbians may be more stable, there is still no father in the equation. In a gay male relationship, there is no mother and those relationships seem to be less stable.

Second, in the New Testament, St. Peter had a dream in which the Holy Spirit specifically revealed to him that the prohibitions of food were no longer binding. This was due to the fact that the Jews were no longer a separate people. That in Jesus, all were saved and set apart.


Reply to Will Jun 25, 2008 - 2:21 AM
Will,
It helps if you read the Bible instead of just quoting it.

In Lev. 11 and Deut. 14 God gives the dietary laws for the Israelites (Jews) to follow. Most Christians are gentiles not Jewish. However, in Lev. 18 these sexual sins are given to the Israelites. However, this chapter also has v26 which states that these laws also apply to the aliens, those not Jewish, so everyone.

So the laws of Lev. 18 have relevence for us today.

And don't just focus on Lev. for verses speaking against homosexuality. Try also: Genesis 19:4-7; Judges 19:22-23; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Romans 1:24-32; 1 Timothy 1:8-11 Homosexuality is more than just a law that God tells us to keep, it is one of several sexual sins that defile the land. It is also one of the few sins that you commit against your own body.

???
Jvette: "Second, in the New Testament, St. Peter had a dream in which the Holy Spirit specifically revealed to him that the prohibitions of food were no longer binding. This was due to the fact that the Jews were no longer a separate people. That in Jesus, all were saved and set apart."

Since Medved is a Jew, I doubt seriously that this was one of his points. I certainly didn't see any reference to kosher food laws in it. I wouldn't see any connection to gay marriage with kosher food laws, either, unless you are arguing that gays and Jews are against the "Christian" way of thinking. What a refreshing new angle to take on these subjects from a TH poster!

Will,
What you call dull talking points, we believe to be eternal truths. Just because you disagree doesn't mean that you are right and we are wrong.

Have you ever hear the story of a frog in a pot of water. If the water starts out cold and is gradually heated to the point of boiling, the frog does not realize that he is in danger until it is too late. However, if the water is boiling when the frog is put in, he immediately knows he is in danger.

This is the situation with gay marriage, conservatives on this and other forums understand the danger, others are deceived because there seems to be nothing wrong with it. No fault divorce began this way. Some believed there was nothing wrong with it. Some knew right away that it was a mistake. Of course, it is now known that children of divorce have lots of problems that extend to adulthood, but it is too late, easy divorce is firmly entrenched.

Abortion is another example. Some understood from the beginning that legalizing it was a travesty. Most would have never believed that it would lead to the death of millions of babies. Yet, here we are thirty-five years later and society is just waking up to the horror and damage it has done.

This is not about excluding gays or treating them like second class citizens. It is about what we believe is right for individuals and society as a whole. It is not a desire to persecute, but a desire to protect society from another grand experiment that cannot be undone.

Will
Children are the PURPOSE of marriage not a requirement.
Tell me one gay couple who can have children on their own, without the assistance of the opposite sex or cloning. You can't.

And we bring these points up week after week, because week after week you homosexual activists try to force us to redefine marriage and accept something we find offensive with the same baseless talking points on the next thread.

Also, you fall victim to your own criticism of Michael. You chose just one statement I made and focused on it. Nice Try.

Who let,....(TxPastor)
John Hagee in here?

John, I'm sure you're a great guy and all but isn't past your bedtime?

Save your rhetoric for your congregation on Sunday. I have no problem with your freedom to worship as you please, its one of the foundations of this country (1st ammendment) So long as it does not infringe upon the rights of the individual (Declaration of Independence).

You do realize what country you live in right?

Hello....
I never said that the food restrictions in Leviticus were one of Mr. Medved's points. That was in response to another poster who said that when quoting that book of the Bible, people tend to forget those restrictions and focus solely on the ones regarding homosexuality.

The point was that while the New Testament specifically removes these restrictions from Christians, it reiterates the prohibitions against homosexuality.

Jvette
Since it appeared that you were commenting on my posting, it would be a good idea to put the name of the poster that you are replying to in your comment.

Jvette
"This is not about excluding gays or treating them like second class citizens. It is about what we believe is right for individuals and society as a whole. It is not a desire to persecute, but a desire to protect society from another grand experiment that cannot be undone."

Here is a perfect example of religious collectivism. "It's about what we believe,...but a desire to protect."

A Constitutional Republic was set up to specifically limit the tyranny of the majority (which you are not in this case, not by a long shot) By your logic if the rest of the country "believed" that slavery was still a valuable enterprise it would be your right to "protect" the system based on your beliefs. Unbelievable.

allsingingalldancing
"If gov't is going to be in the business of subsidizing marriage than rights should be equal for all individuals."
-- There's that liberal mantra: Equality trumps Liberty. And the govt doesn't "subsidize" marriage.

"Realistically the gov't should have nothing to do with marriage as it isn't to be found anywhere in the Constitution,"
-- Oh, come on! Article VI: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof ... shall be the supreme Law of the Land." If the govt chooses to be involved, they can be.

"or it should at the very most be a state issue."
-- And so it is.

"Collectivist ideas of favoring one group over another or creating a law against a group another group disagrees with goes against traditional conservative/republican values based in the freedom of individualism and the tenets of our Constitution."
-- Do you mean "separatist"? Methinks Obama's generous use of that standard Soviet term "collective" in his speeches has made an impression. And to what tenets of the Constitution are you referring? Their is no total 'freedom of individualism' in this country; we don't live in a libertarian utopia.

Caligula
Sorry didn't know the rules.

allsingingalldancing
"Separation of church and state anyone? Quotes from religous text bear zero weight on this issue."
-- I wasn't aware that this forum was part of a govt entity.

"It may for you, but just because it does, does not give you the right to impose your beliefs on others."
-- Oh, so now it does bear weight? As for imposing beliefs, there is no essay section on an election ballot where we are required to explain the reasons behind our voting choices. But then, I wouldn't put it past the side that advocates hate crimes legislation to suggest it.

allsinging
I see you are using one of those dull talking points of which Will posted earlier. Need I remind you that this country fought a civil war because some believed that slavery was wrong and some believed that it was necessary for the good of the country? Slavery deprived human beings of the fundamental right to liberty acknowledged in our Constitution.

Nowhere in that noble document is there a right to marry. It is not a right, it is an institution which is recognized by society as beneficial and therefore, to be promoted.

We do not know the long term affects of gay marriage. We do know however that being raised in a mother/father marriage is the ideal for children. The benefits are recognizable, as are the detrimental affects of divorce and broken families.

I could turn your argument back to you. Just because a majority of people may believe that gay marriage is acceptable doesn't mean that it is. And, why is it your right to fight for what you believe but not mine? Surely you can do better.


KingsX
-- There's that liberal mantra: Equality trumps Liberty. And the govt doesn't "subsidize" marriage.

You're distorting the meaning of equality as if I'm some affirmative action blowhard, nice try though. The ability to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness to all individuals as defined in the DOI. If two guys want to do each other in the rear and that makes them happy, who the hell am I to tell them they can't be married? Your arrogance is disturbing. And yes the gov't does subsidize marriage by providing tax breaks to married couples. My simple point is; if married heterosexual couples are granted tax breaks then so should married homosexual couples.

I never said that there exists a freedom of individualism in the Constitution but it is certainly a founding princible of the Republican party. You imply I mean total anarchy. But individuals are free to live as they please so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others.

It's fine with me this is a state issue, I was perfectly aware when I wrote that. If gay couples want to live in a state that recognizes their marriage, they have a right to move there. But the federal gov't does not have the right to supercede the state's judgement in the matter.

KingsX
"Separation of church and state anyone? Quotes from religous text bear zero weight on this issue."
-- I wasn't aware that this forum was part of a govt entity.

It's not, but the ISSUE is whether or not a constitutional ammendment should be adopted defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

"It may for you, but just because it does, does not give you the right to impose your beliefs on others."
-- Oh, so now it does bear weight?

For a certain individual it might, but not on the question of an ammendment. I've said before, I'm not hear to impose my beliefs on others. Simply here to make you realize you must respect the rights of others. You're very clever when it comes to spinning my comments. I remember your handle from another Medved article in which you were swinging from his testes in the comments section, begging him to come out and play, he must be your hero. Has he served you with that restraining order yet? Considering you use the same deflection methods he does you must listen him often.

Good night
Off to bed.

Allsinging------------
Interesting, those "thousands of years of civilizations..." you mentioned, never once separated religion (church) and state. Every important, serious Historian, Atheists included, have always proclaimed civilzation, as we know it, would not exist without religion.
Each of them also agree the best organized civilization was the Roman Empire, and longest lasting, so far. Religion dominated their every move, from the family on trough the Senate and the Caesars.

There seems to be reality, and then there's you. You might find it interesting that I am what is called a "non-believer." That does not preclude my acknowldgement of reality.

stormrunner
"we as a people treat homosexuals as second-class citizens when we don’t accept that homosexuality is not a moral choice but is a state of being."
-- Unless you believe that we are animals without free will, each of us makes moral choices regarding our sexuality (frequency, number of partners, celibacy, when to become active, whether or not to procreate).

And marriage (with its associated benefits and privileges granted by government) denied to homosexuals relegates them to second-class citizenship in the face of our best science and medicine.
-- Don't forget the 1st cousins and polygamists and practitioners of bestiality who are also relegated to second-class status. Maybe Cole Porter's "Anything Goes" should be our new National Anthem. With lines like: "When mothers pack and leave poor father, Because they decide they'd rather be tennis pros, Anything Goes;" an intentional use of a lesbian stereotype; and, "If love affairs you like, With young bears you like, Why nobody will oppose;" gay or bestiality? You decide.

History will judge this matter – but the tide seems to be turning against your arguments.
-- 1) A trickle is not a tide. 2) People make wrong decisions and choose incorrectly every day.

Formerly
Not sure if last comment took so I'll write this again.

You're right, they did not separate church and state. And where are they now?

Of course historians have said civilzation would not exist without religion, but "why?" is the question to ask here. Certainly not because it was needed as a prerequisite to posess moral fiber. The Mayans plundered distant villagers in order to sacrifice them to the gods, was that moral?

Religion evolved as a way to explain the unexplained and to provide order, the latter being the more important of the two. Ancient peoples needed an explanation as to why the earth shook, why storms raged, why Jimmy got sick, and why there was a sun and moon and stars. Order was created because otherwise without these explanations people would have gone nuts and civilizations would have quickly crumbled.

Its important to note that the resulting gov'ts that evolved based on the tenants of fear where what lead to the fall of each civilization. Is it wrong to think that spiritual beliefs should evolve as life does on earth? Spirituality is something entirely different since it is unique to the individual, it's institutionalized religion that has caused all the problems and fear. Religion is no longer needed for mankind to have moral fiber. The non-agression axiom is something that is inherent to survival - which is defined as the initiation of physical force, the threat of such, or fraud upon persons or their property, is inherently illegitimate.

Educate yourselves
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/lgpstspec.html

continued,......
I'd like to add that before one of you points out to me that the non-aggression axiom is something derived from religion my point here was that we as humanity have evolved past the point needed to know this absent religion.

It doesn't take religion to know that if you mess with people, your chances of not existing anymore will grow.

continued,......
I'd like to add that before one of you points out to me that the non-aggression axiom is something derived from religion my point here was that we as humanity have evolved past the point needed to know this absent religion.

It doesn't take religion to know that if you mess with people, your chances of not existing anymore will grow.

Prima Volta
"Only religious fanatics are opposed to homosexuality."
-- How do you know? unless you're just deliberately lying.

"People who aren't religious fanatics don't use the bible [sic] as their standard of truth,"
-- Nice statement of the obvious, unless you're implying that all religious people are fanatics (in which case ... lie number two).

"and therefore do not oppose homosexuality, since it is no more harmful than heterosexuality."
-- What is the current ratio of homosexual HIV transmission from sexual activity to heterosexual HIV transmission from sexual activity?

"To the best of their ability, non-fanatics use reason as their standard of truth. Human reason may be limited, but it is much better than superstition and xenophobia when it comes to reaching a consensus."
-- Is nothing in The Bible true, correct, or accurate? Does nothing within it derive from the same wise reasoning used by secular thinkers?

"When we use reason, we at least try to figure out fair solutions to real problems. That is something Townhall posters cannot seem to understand."
-- Now all conservative TH posters are religious fanatics?