Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, April 23, 2008
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Faith, Democrats, and Double Standards
by Michael Medved
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



On Sunday, April 13th, the Democratic Presidential candidates celebrated the Lord’s Day by participating in a “Compassion Summit” at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania.

In the course of the discussion, moderator Campbell Brown asked Senator Hillary Clinton about her intimate encounters with the Divine.

BROWN: Let's talk about your faith. And we warned people the questions tonight would be pretty personal. So I want to ask you. You said in an interview last year that you believe in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. And you have actually felt the presence of the Holy Spirit on many occasions. Share some of those occasions with us.

CLINTON: You know, I have, ever since I've been a little girl, felt the presence of God in my life. And it has been a gift of grace that has, for me, been incredibly sustaining. But, really, ever since I was a child, I have felt the enveloping support and love of God and I have had the experiences on many, many occasions where I felt like the Holy Spirit was there with me as I made a journey.

From most commentators, Hillary received high marks for her thoughtful, surprisingly intimate answers to such questions. She seemed oddly more sincere and engaged in talking about faith than she does when she drones on, insufferably, in her robotic rants about policy.

Nevertheless, the generally positive reaction to her comments raises obvious questions about faith, Democrats and double standards.

Imagine that George W. Bush told a public forum that he had “felt the enveloping support and love of God” since childhood, and that on “many, many occasions” he “felt like the Holy Spirit was there with me.”

It’s not hard to imagine the derisive tabloid headlines: “Bush: God Is With Me” or “Prez Sees Spirits” or “W. Talks About His Imaginary Friend.” Howard Dean might comment: “It sounds like Bush is once again saying that he talks to God, so we better watch out. The last time that happened, he took us to a war based on false intelligence.”

Meanwhile, a few days after the get-together in Pennsylvania, the Seattle City Schools cooperated in releasing thousands of students from class and bussing them downtown to listen the largely unintelligible (but very charming) ramblings of the Dalai Lama addressing a huge crown in a basketball arena. The “strict separationists” who usually pitch tantrums at any introduction of religious ideas in government classrooms, somehow winked and shrugged at the use of school time and resources to expose students to the world’s most prominent Buddhist monk.

Why is it less controversial when liberals talk about their religious outlook than it is for conservatives to speak about our faith?

And why can a revered Buddhist address school kids without controversy, when a comparably devout Christian figure surely would draw objection? The answer to both questions involves perceived threat.

Secularists and non-believers don’t feel threatened in the least by Buddhism. It’s a withering faith-tradition, with few converts anywhere in the world outside of Hollywood and academia. According to Phillip Jenkins, Professor of Religious Studies at Penn State, by the year 2050 there will be fewer Buddhists in the world than Pentecostal Christians (just one of the growing subsets of Evangelical Christianity). Buddhism remains a gentle, exotic and largely irrelevant faith in the United States, and a retreating civilization around the world.

Christianity, on the other hand, seems unmistakably vital, aggressive, powerful and influential, as the recent visit of the Pope demonstrated in unmistakable terms. For those who distrust religious enthusiasm, and want a minimum of challenge or interference in their secular lives, Christianity presents a direct and compelling challenge.

By the same token, no one objects to Hillary’s God-talk because, in essence, nobody fully believes it. Her frequent encounters with the Holy Spirit sound no more formidable than Dennis Kucinich’s sighting of a UFO (in the company of Shirley McLaine – now that’s a problem).

As for Hillary, she can’t point to a single issue in which her supposedly “deep commitment to my Methodist faith” actually shaped her thinking, beyond a very bland and generalized concern for the poor as “the least among us.” She doesn’t scare non-believers because all the religious overtones in her speeches and interviews can’t erase the overwhelming impression they receive that “she’s one of us” – and her positions on abortion, homosexuality, stem cells, and most church-state issues further reassure them that she’s still on their side on the culture war.

Usually, it’s considered a good thing if an individual demonstrates fervent and life-changing religiosity, or if a particular faith has seen vast increases in numerical strength because of its passion and vibrancy.

When it comes to the secular establishment that dominates most American Institutions, however, they’d prefer the sort of faith that makes fewer demands and draws fewer converts, and look more kindly on a religion that’s dwindling than a church that’s clearly on the March.

It’s also easy to understand why those who warn against imminent “theocracy” feel far more comfortable with a politician whose well-advertised interaction with the Holy Spirit no one in the country seems to take too seriously.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Michael Medved's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Because
they are hypocrites. They also learned the lessons of the last 2 election cycles, so they learned the language, and make spiritual happy-talk. This is also new territory for them, all those years insulting and denigrating Christians, they have some catching up to do no matter how contrived. They talk a good (not really) game. They get away with it because the press lets them, the press is no different from those they are trying to elect, anything to win. Obama threw his grandmother under the bus, Hillary p*mped out Chelsea, learn some christianese.

Hillary has a plan for Hillary's life
"Her frequent encounters with the Holy Spirit sound no more formidable than Dennis Kucinich’s sighting of a UFO..." Ha! That's exactly it! :D

"Over us all to reign..." I think it says to her.

I keep asking Democrats and Libs...
...if nationalized health care is implemented, can I opt out and not pay into it since I won't receive any benefit? And while I'm on that subject, can I opt out of any other government program, short of defense, law enforcement, and other constitutionally mandated provisions, that I don't want nor do I want to pay for?

Usually they just roll their eyes, as though I can't possibly be serious.

But if the liberal Democrats have found religion, then they must certainly believe that theft, whether it's committed by an individual or a government, is wrong. If I don't grant permission for someone to take my money and property, that is considered theft. Theft is a crime and a sin.

Why must I be forced to pay taxes that are going to be redistributed by government in the name of benevolence? Why must I, as a citizen, be forced to pay for the welfare, the health care, the retirement, and the education of people I don't even know nor have any direct bearing on their lives? Why is that fair?


Why miss an opportunity?
Why is it less controversial when liberals talk about their religious outlook than it is for conservatives to speak about our faith?

***

Are we to assume that the Seattle School System
is a liberal ... (fill in the blanks.) I can
think of a couple of reasons why the Dalai Lama
was allowed (encouraged?) to speak to the students. The lesser reason would be as you said - no one sees it as a threat to their own
religious beliefs. There is also a question as
to whether Buddhism is even considered a religion. Most Buddhists do not see it as one,
because it is without a godhead.

The more likely reason why the Lama was in
Seattle was to talk about the China/Tibet thing.
It is very much in the news right now what
with the Olympics going on. And, of course, you
know that. I guess you just decided to skip
that part because then it would have been
harder to take a jab at the liberals.

More than just the absence of danger
Mr. Medved is partially correct: Liberals are allowed to cuddle up to religious faith of any stripe because their religious beliefs pose no threat to the secular-progressive political agenda. But there's a more sinister side to this coin, as Mr. Goldberg writes in "Liberal Fascism":

"America is today in the midst of an obscene moral panic over the role of Christians in public life. There is a profound irony in the fact that such protests issue most loudly from self-professed "progressives" when the real progressives were dedicated in the most fundamental way to the Christianization of American life. Progressivism, as the title of Washington Gladden's book suggested, was "applied Christianity." The Social Gospel held that the state was the right arm of God and was the means by which the whole nation and world would be redeemed. But while Christianity was being made into a true state religion, its transcendent and theological elements became corrupted."

Today's Liberals have reached into their grab-bag of ideologies and pulled out progressivism as it was fashioned in the 20th Century. This progressivism was armed with a social gospel teaching that state coercion was necessary and proper in bringing about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, not unlike what radical Islam teaches nowadays. Therefore, Ms. Clinton & Mr. Obama's religious beliefs are not only non-threatening to the secular-progressives but also instrumental to their political agenda. This explains the widely publicized exercise at Messiah College.

It's not a double standard.
It's that liberals feel standards OF ANY KIND don't apply to them. They feel they are free from criticism, from standards of morality, ethics and decorum, but that everyone else is subject to their range-of-the-moment dictates.

Rational people have truth and reason on their side. Neoliberals have lawyers.

Shortsighted Rabble
To the emotional rabble embarrassing a cause with their callous, ill-informed disruption of Olympic Torch events, evaluating China’s position on Tibet represents a stark moral contrast: “freedom” or “tyranny.” Social causes are never so simple.

Absent clarity, encouraging the central government to continue economic development of this impoverished area and to support integration of China’s minorities is more prudent. I’ve lived here for years. Business travel has taken me to 50+ cities in China. Without fail, leaders I meet are infused with energy, optimism and enthusiasm for the nation’s developmental trends. A sense of balance compels me to wonder:

- What was Tibet before the current government? I think Tibet was a theocracy. The religious establishment consumed an unconscionable proportion of GNP. Today’s zealots yearning for a return to those halcyon days should understand Tibet was never Shangri-la. For all their fervid mantras, the monks assured their yaks had more protections than the women, because yaks had greater economic value. Does our world need more theocracies? I think history sends a message: theocracies serve only the “elect,” non-believers are fair game. Does the world need more rulers governed by “faith” principles divined by religious leaders?
- The current Chinese regime has, arguably, raised the standard of living higher, faster, and for more people than any other in their history. Any responsible group desiring to destroy or impede the steady progress of a nation of 1.3 billion souls should probably have a proven alternative. Informed Chinese people I know convince me they understand their government’s acute fallibility, but favor development, not dismissal. Whatever else they are, the zealots aren’t too smart if they think they are driving a stake into the heart of China’s governors. Popular support for the national government grows exponentially with every new desecration of Olympic symbols.

GOD's political party affiliation
Isn't He an independent?

Obama on Hope

"All that I'm sayin' is give surrender a chance".

Barak Obama



Why Buddha and not God in Seattle?
Never heard of Buddha holding man accountable for sin or judging mankind...God does. Buddhism presents no absolutes...Christianity does.

For the NEA backed school systems, ACLU, and all the rest, who defend the separation of Church and state nonsense, they have no problem with any religion as long as it is not Christianity...so allowance of school children to attend this presentation of Buddhism is not hypocritical. On the contrary, it is in perfect alignment with their position and agenda.

As a final note, if one could find out, I would imagine children (if there were any) who wouldn't attend for religious reasons were given some punitive grade or mark for the class under which the school system could associate the field trip...social studies, etc.

Willy Victor
I believe God would probably be most pleased with the libertarian Constitutional gov't our nation started with. Each person was considered a sovereign directly answering to God rather than a king. The limited gov't was to preserve the peace, protect law abiding citizens from criminals, and protect the nation. Most everything else was between the individual and his God.

Why Hillary gets a pass and G.W. didn't
I wonder if one reason Bush has been ridiculed for his faith is that the media perceived that he really believes, whereas with Hillary they see it as a political device--good for drawing in the yokels, but thankfully not something she'll actually try to apply to her life in the White House.

It's consistent with the world's view in general. Nobody has a problem with Easter, for example, when it focuses on pretty dresses and fuzzy bunnies and flowers and chocolate, but just try and bring all this Cross and resurrection stuff into it...


Hillary's Funny Religion
She has made numerous remarks about Obama's connection with the black centrists. She said:" You know, I have, ever since I've been a little girl, felt the presence of God in my life. And it has been a gift of grace that has, for me, been incredibly sustaining." She always throws in "youknow" like an early teenager. Her life, according to what I have read, has been one of stealth, lie, perhaps murder, conniving, deceit, etc. All of the things discussed about the Clintoons do not happen to ordinary people but do happen in the lives of criminals and sometimes with politicians. Cattle futures, dead people, Ft. Marcy Park, Secretary Ron Brown, Rose Law Firm files in the WH, and dozens of other "accidents" and unusual events. That is the religion of the Clintoons. Hillary, if you get back to the WH please return the items you stole.

Bulldog74
You're exactly right. If the media thought either Obama or Hillary were actually SERIOUS in following a faith that claims fealty to the Bible, it would be subjecting them to the same treatment it gives Bush for his. But as you suggest, the media knows very well that the two Democrats are just playing games on this subject, and really DON'T take it seriously. Ostensibly, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry are practicing Catholics, yet the media adores them. Why? That's obvious: because when the two have to make a choice between upholding the principles of the Bible vs. those of the Democratic Party, they will always choose the latter, so the media knows their God-talk can be taken with a grain of salt. Just like it knows that of Obama and Hillary. Why hasn't the media subjected Joe Lieberman to the same hostility for his supposed faith that it did Rick Santorum for his? Again, to ask the question is to answer it: because the media knows that in practice, supposedly religious Democrats in fact put the principles of the Democratic Party (whatever they are at the moment) as the highest canon they recognize in actuality.

Liberals and Faith
Liberals accept faith among public servants only so long as those public servants don't allow that faith to enter into their policy-making decisions and take anything away from the lock-step liberal parade.

Remember John Kerry? There were a number of times where he professed his Catholic (shudder) faith. (I shudder because the faith that I do profess and devoutly practice is associated with the likes of Kerry, Kennedy and Daschle). He also specifically said that he did not allow his faith to enter into his political decisions. Hence his support for very non-Catholic policies as abortion, embryonic stem-cells, and gay privileges.

It's OK for Liberals to believe in God because they don't allow God to drive their political decisions.

Liberals and FAITH
The Democrats definitely have double standards.On different occassions the two top Democrats have been seen in African American CHURCHES. Why? It seems the Church has a few people in them they want to count on to vote RIGHT. It is Ok for the Pastors of those Churches to rally the vote but all HELL breaks out if Rev. Billy Bob or his cousins dares to bring politics or politicians into their arena.
With approximately 170 million adherents of FAITH floating around that CLING to Religion and GUNS to vent their frustrations then it is a large block of potential voters. Unfortunately for the atheist and democrats they are reasonably organized.They even SPEAK out against various perveived SINS and don't see themselves as gods. The ruse of Seperation of Church and State is the Democrats mantra of trying to keep Rev. Billy Bob's mouth shut and to break up his potential RIGHT WINGERS VOTING BLOC.
If a Republican candidate had spent 20 years sitting under the influence of a race baiting,anti-American like Rev. Wright the candidate would have a sheet thrown over him and declared the Grand Wizzard of the KKK.

Chuck
The worst part is that Rev. Billy Bob or Father O'Malley are not allowed to speak, but Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton (who, incidentally, never even graduated from anything like a seminary or divinity school) are and Jackson and Sharpton are even encouraged to run for President.

Buddhism
For anyone who cares, Buddhism is very different from most religions in that it isn't centered in belief. Most religions tell a story about reality and then ask their adherents to believe the story absolutely. Buddhism is about seeing that none of our stories about reality can ever fully represent reality. It's about seeing that our stories about reality can only be relatively, provisionally, partially true. They cannot be Absolutely True. For an idea to be Absolutely True it would have to capture the whole of reality so that it could not be contradicted by anything else. But this is impossible because Reality isn't something that can be captured in conceptual form. To conceive of something is to draw a boundary that distinguishes the concept from everything else. And once we've drawn a boundary we have separated the concept from the rest of reality. Thus, concepts, and conceptual frameworks are inherently contradicted by the rest of reality. As soon as you conceive of "A", you simultaneously establish "not A". In other words, all concepts, all beliefs, are inherently contradictory and therefore cannot possibly be Absolutely True.

Reality is simply what's going on in This Moment prior to putting it into conceptual form. In other words, Buddhism is about seeing reality as it Actually Is, rather than how we conceive it to be, or believe it to be. And because no boundaries have been drawn the Whole is taken into account.

This is one reason why people aren't threatened by Buddhism. It doesn't set up a system of beliefs that could be opposed by any other set of beliefs. In Buddhism all stories are treated as relative truths that may or may not be helpful. What's most important for Buddhists is not the stories, but reality as it is in This Moment prior to telling ourselves stories about it.

Phylo out.


Willy Victor
And all other Liberals trying to assign God as a Liberal or an Independent. None of this has anything to do with what political affiliation God appears to follow (an idiotic premise to begin with, but that's neither here nor there). It has everything to do with which party follows the line "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15). The Left supports abortion, Euthanasia, homosexuality, sexual misconduct in general, softness on crime, and secularism. Atheists are, almost to a man, on the Left. As are activists who advocate legalized drugs and who want to give a pass to tyrants and murderers. As are those who supported Susan Smith (the woman who put her two young children in the back seat of her car and pushed the car into a lake) and Andrea Yates (the woman who drowned her five young children in the bathtub).

It's not whether God is a liberal or a conservative. It's whether Liberals or Conservatives care about God.

happy jake
So you know: Dr. Jeremiah Wright has his doctorate in theology from the University of Chicago.

Phylo, thanks for the lecture


Thanks for the lecture on Buddhism , but the fact persists that "separation of 'church and state'" applies only to Christian activities, with Muslim foot washing in a public schools as an example.

Buddhism is a set of beliefs, which makes it a religion, subject to the rights and restrictions the rest must put up with.

Faith, Democrats, and Double Standards
Amen to this article. Neither one of the Clintons are believable. Everyone knows that the entire universe is made of big government with King Bill and Queen Hillary ruling it.

What Hillary sees as God is nothing more than a personafication of herself.

Bill
And don't forget to add, Bill, that the ChiComs keep the trains running on time.

Phylo
Yes, I know. I was referring specifically to Al Sharpton in my comment (Mr. Sharpton was ordained at the age of 9). Jesse Jackson also has a Doctorate in Theology.

666
A couple three years ago, I read (but unfortunately did not keep) an article (it was a very small Chicago Tribune blurb) where Hillary Clinton was all for getting chips installed. As I recall, she said it sounded like a "good idea." This was through another country, not the U.S., but I'm wondering if the Holy Spirit was instrumental with that decision, too.

I wouldn't talk about my latest tri-kini purchase, because it just wouldn't "fit." I wish Hillary would follow the same line of thinking. Her speaking of Christianity, while believing in abortion, is an eye roll.

http://cathlete.net

Buddhism
I see it said that Buddhism is not absolute. However, nihilsm and an absence of meaning seem very absolute to me. That was something that bothered me when I read the Philip Pullman "His Dark Materials" series a few years ago. I thought that I would not have found nihilsm a comforting prospect when I was a child. I suppose I could have pushed myself to accept it, deciding that if this was the truth, best to deny myself the misgivings and grow up, and give up my self-centered grasp on identity and survival. I suppose the Western dilettantes who posture at adopting Buddhism suppose that they are somehow more spiritual and nobler by "going gentle into that good night."
On the other hand, one ex-Catholic turned Buddhist that I knew told me that she and her husband believed that they had been lovers in many past incarnations, and that they would continue to be in future lives. Sort of a dimestore-romance novel version of that tiresome endless wheel of reincarnation, and I guess she missed the point.

yes and no
Medved is right that the lack of concern with taking students to see the Dalai Lama is that there is no likelihood that the result will be pressure on the children to become Buddhists. It is not a doctinal issue, but rather an issue of whether the students are likely to be evangalized (is that a word, the idea is hopefully clear).

And yes, the fact that Clinton is not likely to believe that God has sanctioned her to go to war does make a difference. The God that told Bush that invading Iraq was a good idea, was not particular good at foreign policy.

But I am not sure why Medved thinks these are not relevant distinctions. The schools should not be involved in putting pressure on children to convert, and voices that tell people what policies to follow are scarier than voices that make people feel special.

Gee
Isn’t it a drag when folks don’t worship the way we think they should? Isn’t is too bad we can’t regulate religion somehow so liberals can’t have it unless they do it the way we say?

Wayfinder
I am not sure what democrats you are asking about those issues. So far the clearest policy difference between Clinton's health care proposal and Obama's health care proposal is that Clinton says you can't opt out, while Obama says you can. But Obama would make it costly to then later opt in when you suddenly find out you need the health care after all.

As far as the broader issue, neither democrats nor republicans will let you opt out of paying for the particular issues you want to. Many on the left, of course, would just as soon opt out of paying for the Iraq war, which has made us less safe rather than more. But it would be disastrous to run a country on such a system, so only the silly would suggest adding the ridiculous expenses needed to run an opt out system issue by issue. Instead we have established a representative democratic system of republican government, whereby we elect people who make decisions along those lines and accept that we will agree with some and disagree with others.

Happy Jake
I am puzzled by your claim of a double standard. Do you not remember Pat Robertson's run for president? In what sense was he not allowed to speak?

MrRoy
Everyone knows that the entire universe is made of big government with King Bill and Queen Hillary ruling it. "
------------

Say, What? You meant this to be satire, right?



Reality & Buddhism
Just out of curiosity, aren't the inverse square laws of physics Absolutely True because they apply to the whole of Reality? And isn't it true that these laws apply to the whole of Reality regardless of some set of people's comprehension of them (reduced to some logical code)?

Lon
I am not so amazed at Medved's preoccupation with liberals, but his idea that religious conservatives are not allowed to speak is pretty far out there.

We just had an entire week of pope-a-rama all day, every day, and the faces of conservative religious americans like Robertson and Falwell couldn'be more famous if they were on a postage stamp.

Hallary talks eloquently about her religion, but to my knowledge she has never claimed to get her directives straight from god's mouth.

New bottle, old whine.

Reality and Conservatism
Mary Otterness writes: I do not follow any Party line completely. I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative who believes that the Parties are equal but different. It is in the spirit of "Independence" from dogma that I say how disappointed I am in Mr. Medvedt's suggestion that Christianity is the only valid way in which to view life, etc. It is, indeed, his moral arrogance and the arrogance of others like him that fosters hatred and ill-will among the varied human race.

With most libs hypocrisy reigns supreme
The only thing divine about most liberals is their hypocrisy. What about the standard operating procedure of libs of visiting churches with only black congregations everytime an election rolls around? Where's the "separation of church and state" they're always clamoring about? Where's the ACLU filing lawsuits about that?

Fasttracker
I've been watching to see if the story about the Pentagon using retired military officers - many of who are heavily invested in private contract companies un Iraq)to pose as objective analyists, and put positive spins on the war in order to keep it going would appear on TH.

Instead TH has entire columns on Bill Clinton using the "S" word, the standard gay-bashing column, glowing reviews of "expelled" with laments that reviewers who are trashing it are "unfair" and Medved's usual whining about how conservatives don't get to talk about religion.

I would say that the most popular subject on TH is liberals - how they think, dress, act, talk, how they never invite conservatives to sit with them for lunch in the cafeteria and always end up getting the head cheerleader as their prom date.

Waa-Waa.

MikeR
It isn't the way liberals "worship". It is the fact that they have, for decades insulted and denigrated Christians. But they can make campaign speeches in churches, and all of a sudden they are "champions" of christianity. Pardon me if they ring phoney.

Lon
Pat Robertson has been called an anti-semite, a hatemonger, and (derisively) a fundamentalist Christian by the Left. The problem is not that God fearing people don't run for President or speak in public, it's that those who are against Leftist policies like homosexuality and abortion cause the Left to cry "Separation of Church and State" or "Intollerance" whereas when Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton utter some blatantly Racist comment ("Those white Duke students raped that poor black girl because they're racists and should spend the rest of their lives in prison.") they are made out to be paragons of virtue and "Diversity."

When a Conservative Christian preacher speaks from the pulpit about Abortion, the Left threatens to pull their tax-exempt status for being Political. When Barack Hus-Change Obama makes a political speech during a church service (which he did last year at Rick Warren's church) no one says a word.

THAT'S the double standard.

Conservatism and Religion
As an independent, I am not in accord with Conservatism's assumption that it is the only avenue of "truth," whether it be political truth or religious truth. This assumption fosters ill-will among people of different faiths. The Dalai Lama has, in my opinion, transcended that sort of division over the years. For that, I thank him! Mary C. Otterness

Wow...
According to the good folks here at TH, apparently I'm not allowed to be both a liberal (which I am) and also a Christian (which I am). I guess I'll just have to pick one, huh? **sigh**

What pointless drabble...

Holy War
Michael Medved continues the right-wing media, modern march of making politics a holy war.

1.) It's asserted that George Bush and Republicans don't use religion as a political ploy. Republicans are by-and-large "sincere" in their religion.

2.) It's asserted that all Democrats use religion insincerely and that there is some agreed upon "secular" agenda.

What Michael is pitching is tantamount to a holy war where Christians take up arms against the heathens, a Crusade if you will.

The end result is clear enough. He wants his audience to believe that all liberals are infidels, heathens and phony Christians. Thus his comment that liberals don't see Clinton as a secular threat because her religious calling is phony.

But the question really needs to be asked. Is Michael willing to finish what he started? Imagine for 1 second that the Christians declare physical war on the heathens and start killing them. You think for one second Michael would be anywhere but in the back shouting orders?




What about seeing the Pope?
Let's suggest that the Pope's itinerary was different on his recent trip to the US. Would the Seattle City school district have released the students and bussed them downtown for the chance to attend his Mass at Safeco Field? I can't image that they would.

Shoes
"According to the good folks here at TH, apparently I'm not allowed to be both a liberal (which I am) and also a Christian (which I am). I guess I'll just have to pick one, huh? **sigh**"

Actually, this is America, you're "allowed" to be anything you want. If you can reconcile your political and religious beliefs, then that's fine with me, the only One you have to answer to is God.

But I think you're missing the point of the column, which was one of double standards, the two illustrations being:

(1) Bush gets skewered for "talking to God", while Hillary gets "high marks for her thoughtful, surprisingly intimate answers to such questions."

(2) A group of school kids goes to see the Dalai Lama; ok, fine, he's a famed and respected world leader and I don't have a problem with it. But the smart money at this site is saying that if they had been taken to see, for example, the Pope or the Archbishop or Canterbuy or some other such personage, the good people of Seattle would have been apoplectic.


God doesn't believe it.
God doesn't believe it. The the conservative party is Christian in anyway shape or form. God doesn't believe the Republican party or its followers are Christian.

God hates those who sow discord and stir up trouble (Proverbs 6:19).

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9).

Notice at the start that the promise of this Beatitude is to the "peacemaker" and not to the "peace lover." Passivity is not the answer; activity is. "Peacemaking" is an action word, implying that the Christian' is to be busy making peace in this world.

Any person or entity who sows discord such as right-wing media sows discord between liberal and conservative Christians is evil and doing the devil's work, as is Michael Medved. God will judge those who are not peacemakers accordingly as to bible.







To Wayfinder
The quick answer to your questions... and you know this already.

Liberals think that all money is owned by the government, and they get to decide how much you get to keep. It doesn't matter that you work for it, you earn it, it's theirs. So therefore, if they believe that all the money is the property of the government, then they can't possibly be committing theft by taking it from you can they?

There is no answer to "why is that fair," it can't possibly be fair, but liberals can't see that either.

the idea
that democrats/liberals can't be as Christian as conservatives is simply propaganda from the biased conservative media.

so billy graham (a life long democrat) is less a Christian than any republican or conservative?

but then conservatives like medved don't think logically they simply FEEL something is true.

Wayfinder at 1:10 a.m.
Loved your questions. While I know they were rhetorical, I indeed share your feelings about the redistribution of "wealth" that I have contributed to the government coffers. I would like some say -- even a tiny bit of "say" -- in where it goes.

I have long thought that taxes and government programs should be run somewhat as private charities run themselves. With many charities, if you contribute $100 or $500 or $1,000, you can designate the purpose for the money -- for example, to be applied to research on cancer, or to be applied directly to treatment costs for treating cancer patients or to be applied for public education purposes.

Which of us wouldn't LOVE to see that kind of flexibility with our taxes? I could designate the support of our troops overseas, I could designate support for elderly poor stuck in nursing homes, I could designate treatment funds for the VA for returning vets -- and I could NIX welfare programs for able-bodied (and lazy) adults, free breakfasts for kids, and subsidies for millionaire farmers, etc.

Wouldn't that be loverly? Alas, it's only in my dreams. And yours too, probably.

Lon
Your Hillary was just quoted as claiming that she has often felt the presence of the Holy Spirit with her in her life. Words like "from childhood" would seem to suggest she feels entirely at home with this presence, and might even imply an endorsement of her views by that Almighty presence.
So when she says she is willing to "obliterate" Iran, should it attack Israel with nuclear weapons, do you think she implies that we should believe God would approve? Since He spends all that time hinging around with her...

Wayfinder
"Why must I be forced to pay taxes that are going to be redistributed by government in the name of benevolence?"

amen brother!, I hope you were asking the same question when Republicans were in total charge of DC from 2001-2007.

That glorious period of big-government-orgy spending, where the Department of education was doubled, pork barrel projects got porked out from 3,000 to 14,000 projects a year, farm and ethanol subsidies went through the roof, and a whole other entitlement program was added. And for the past five years we have been in a war to bring Jeffersonian democracy, with a NeoCon social engineering agenda, to Iraq that costs about $120 billion a year.

All paid for with tax cuts and debt owed to China. Hoorah! All i hope for is that we get to hang onto our precious tax cuts well into the future.


you know
I kid around from time to time but I believe that most folks here are expressing sincere feelings and beliefs. If we apply then to the topic we can see that at on the surface, Medved makes a good point. Bulldog74 summed it up perfectly; and there is one of the liberals’ main hypocrisies. Others on both sides have pointed to the next level where each side has laid claim to certain integral parts of our culture. In this case, that conservatives have claimed religion and faith to be their own purview. Then, at the most basic level, we see others resorting to the common human flaw of lumping people together. Many times in this thread and others we see “liberals are …..” and “conservatives are…”. This is not only erroneous, it is hypocrisy at its most basic level and usually leads to a laundry list of cross accusations.

So, does Medved have a point? Yes.
Is he or many conservatives tactically different from their opposition? No.

Arby
and add handouts and price supports to Wall Street Bankers. geez, I hope nobody at Bear Stears, JP Morgan, Wachovia, or UBS, to name a few had to give up their yacht or mid-town Manhattan penthouse!

miker
good posts and good points.

you make a very good observation that many conservatives (notice i use many and not all) seem to think that millions upon millions of americans who consider themselves liberal all think and act alike.

i mean some conservative must actually think there is some kind of club called "liberals inc" that you join and are given orders by al gore or something.

i mean i come to townhall because i love to have my ideas challenged and there are some articulate and intelligent conservatives here.


but it amzes me that many conservatives can recognize that there is a difference between religiousl conservatives, social conservative, fiscal conservatives etc...

but don't seem to understand that liberals are not monolithic either.

there are Christian liberals, blue collar liberals, college educated liberals etc...

Actions louder than words
Many people (liberals, conservatives, independents) frequently invoke faith and claim to be a believer. Yet their actions often betray them. Such people need to keep Matthew 7:22-23 in mind. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonder works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

people you've never met
Perhaps much of this "double standard" in the way liberal Christians and conservative Christians are characterized by MSM results from the way each treats people they don't know and have never met.

Much of the conservative Christian agenda has been attempts do deny gay people the inheritance, insurance, and hospital visitation rights enjoyed by straight people (marriage rights). This comes across a very mean-spirited.

On the other hand, liberals want to ensure access to quality education and health care for everyone (by employing the methods of the healthiest and best educated countries). This comes across as very noble.

Certainly conservatives will mention abortion as if it's their concern alone. It was the Democrats in congress that passed the Need for Reducing Abortions Act last fall.

As much as conservatives (Wayfinder as an example) would like to see the US governed by the principle of Every Man for Himself. This is the opposite of Christian teachings. We're to first worry about the people we've never met.

Luke 14: 12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

religiouslib, MikeR
Point taken...yesterday's Pennsylvania primary was a good illustration that party politics is not monolithic.

As far as the whole "how can you be a conservative/liberal and call yourself a Christian" thing goes, I really try not to go there except maybe on an individual basis when certain people exhibit rank, blatant inconsistency or hypocrisy.

I figure I'll have enough to answer for at the Judgment Seat, and I better be careful or I'll wind up being the valet in some liberal's celestial mansion.

Speaking about ghosts,
"holy" ghosts or otherwise, has no place in politics.

"Holy ghosts" are what happens to you when you drop acid. Holy ghosts are a result of disorientation. I get discouraged when I hear politicians describing a hallucinatory trip.

viruddh writes:
The more likely reason why the Lama was in
Seattle was to talk about the China/Tibet thing.
It is very much in the news right now what
with the Olympics going on. And, of course, you
know that. I guess you just decided to skip
that part because then it would have been
harder to take a jab at the liberals.

I have one question: how many school kids were bussed to see the Pope?

Nuff Said

What about Islam?
The left, especially academia, also seems far more tolerant of Islam than Christianity. Islam is also on the march, and now Moslems outnumber Catholics, although the total Christian population is still larger than the total Islamic population.

There are several reasons for this. For one, the Moslem population in the United States is still small compared to the number of Christians, so it's not perceived as a threat. The left is also tolerant of Islam because it is a Third World religion, and leftists never criticize the Third World. They believe Moslems simply "don't know any better," and will eventually learn the pleasures of liquor, rock music, mini-skirts, and free sex.

Finally, the left is made of of cowards who fear Islam. They know the Christian fundamentalists will do nothing to them. But they fear the Moslems, who might kill them, or worse, call them "racists," the modern "Scarlet Letter." No leftist can bear that.


think_4_yourself writes:
We just had an entire week of pope-a-rama all day, every day, and the faces of conservative religious americans like Robertson and Falwell couldn'be more famous if they were on a postage stamp.


One more time. How many kids were let out of school and bussed at taxpayers expense to listen to the Pope?

I would bet the answer is ZERO.

Folks that is the difference Medved is illustrating here. We all know it a dime of tax payers' money were used to send kids to listen to the pope or Billy Graham for that matter the ACLU would be all over it. If there is going to be a standard for separation of church and state it needs to be applie equally across the board.

Gee Pat
Do you think you could offer even a little bit of substantiation on you 2-bit opinions of liberals (classic TH).

I've made my share of typos here, but misspelling "Muslim" four times?

pat
who are these liberals you are talking about and where did you get that impression.
please show some documentation for your statement.

i fear moslems alot less than i do the chinese.

the stone age clerics can hurt us but the chinese can obliterate us.

maybe just maybe liberals don't fear Christians because a large majority of liberals are Christians.


survey after survey says thta 85-90% of americans consider themselves Christians and since the the country is pretty much split 50-50 between liberal and conservative that means that many liberals consider themselves Christians.

Hillary DOES believe in a Trinity
She believes in Marx, Lenin, and Stalin.

Her Bible? "Rules for Radicals" by their apostle, Saul Alinsky.

Hillary delenda est.

Religion and Policy
Because a candidate's "religion" is ill-defined, untestable, and only tenuously related to policy, I consider it only so much noise at best, and at worst a dangerous distraction from reasoned argument, when argued in public.

Consider: A candidate proposes a bill, for which he makes sound policy arguments, and a certain portion of the legislature/public approves. The same candidate then appends "...and I am a Methodist" or "...because Methodism says so" to the end of said bill. Does it not seem that any portion of the legislature/public who then change their votes are morons?
Or consider the real example of Clinton. How do conservatives claim to know that she is not a Christian? Because of her policies.
If they somehow became convinced that she were a sincere but somehow misguided Christian (with precisely the same policies), would that actually change anyone's opinion of her potential presidency?
It shouldn't.
If, to pose a third example, Bush's actual justification for going to war with Iraq is "because God said he should," then he may as well have said, "because I felt like it," since God's feelings on the matter are utterly obscure.
If war with Iraq is good, it should be justifiable without "just taking Bush's word for it," and thus without mentioning his personal religion.
Do you follow me? For some reason I'm having a tough time articulating this particular point.

bulldog74
i am always impressed with your posts.

you may not agree all the time but your responses are reasoned and civil.

it is a pleasure to discuss issues with you.

Cam
"Moslem" is an alternative spelling of "Muslim," or at least so says the American Heritage Dictionary..."Muslim" just happens to be more widely in use at present.

We're all hypocrites
People all have a "cafeteria" approach to religion, taking what they want and rejecting the rest. They feel they have a right to do this. As a priest I know once said, "Why don't they tell that to a traffic cop?"

In the case of the left, all they accept is "Give to the poor" (but this is an individual responsibility, not a government one), "Turn the other cheek" (like they do?), "Judge not lest ye be judged"(but they judge plenty when it bothers them), and "Jesus was a pacifist" (He was not).

Conservatives actually give more to charity than liberals, and not just to their churches. Liberals consider their taxes their charitable institutions. How many secular organizations run soup kitchens?

The liberal attitude can be summed up by what one "liberal" once said to a conservative talk show host in Phoenix, Arizona: "I don't want to be bothered. I want there to be programs to take care of that. Life is too short and I want to enjoy it. If I have to pay a little more in taxes, so be it. The government can get all the money it needs from the rich anyway."

The extreme right is no better, obsessing over evolution (my religion has no problem with it) and gay rights, which have become non-issues. As for abortion, I'm sorry but that's a lost cause. Most parents today will gladly pay for their daughter's abortion, rather than deal with an unwanted pregnancy. Conservatives often want to go back to the 1950s as they wrongly imagine it was, the fantasy of "Ozzie and Harriet."
Their answer to ever economic problem is, "Let the market decide," which is utter nonsense.

Neither side wants to budge. "Unity" is defined as "Stop arguing and support me because it's so obvious that I'm right." Give me a break.

The Faith Question
The Media hasn't assailed neither President Bush not Republican for a claim of faith.

What is often questioned, and rightfully so, is the claim that God has inspired us to wage war, and further, wage war in such a manner that the innocent are killed.

I believe that war is a necessary evil, as such, it should be executed with the Full Power of the Military, Precisely, and Accurately.

The notion that a claim of faith in God which encourages war and the accepted deaths of innocent children by our hand should go unchallenged is nonsense. Michael, and far too many Conservatives, has twisted and maligned the teaching of God in such a way that God & Country are one in the same, and to question one is to question the other.

Christian Nationalism is not Christianity.


Operation Chaos II
Corruption of the Democratic Primary process is now chic, as proven by Conservatives, and encouraged by Rush Limbaugh, who believe that a protracted Democratic Primary season will ultimately serve Republicans well. The reasoning offered to support this strategy, as we have been given, is that a “Bloodied Up” Obama & Clinton will be the result of revealed faults and short-comings.

Operation Chaos participants have proudly claimed, as accounted on Talk Radio and Internet Blogs, have taken to registering as Democrats in established Open Primaries (state provisions that empower the electorate to vote without respect of party in the candidate election process - primaries) and supporting Sen Clinton with the hope that neither Sen Clinton nor Sen Obama will emerge as the victor until the Democratic National Convention in June. The anticipated, and hopeful, result of this effort is that both Democratic Candidates will sufficiently flog the other and subsequently prove themselves unelectable.


WHAT I LEARNED THIS WEEK | OPERATION CHAOS II

http://whatilearnedthisweek.wordpress.com/operation-chaos-i i

Medved doesn't get operation Chaos
Rush's operation Chaos has worked PERFECTLY. The Democrats are total train wreck now and none of this would have ever happened if Texas and Ohio had not gone for Hillary...thanks to operation Chaos.

Medved.... you a smart guy, I am a Medhead, I pay monthly for your podcast.

But dude.... sometimes I wonder where your head is.

"Moslem" not a misspelling
Cam and religiouslib:

I deliberately spell it "Moslem," and will continue to do so. It was a proper spelling for years, and I won't change it to be "PC."

As for substantiation, all you have to do is listen to liberals. When have they ever condemned any enemy of the West in general and America in particular since 1945? Where have they ever defended any Christian belief except the ones I've mentioned? And where do you get off criticizing me? Where's your substantiation about your comments on conservatives? Who are these liberal religious hypocrites? Jesse Jackson, Alan Colmes, and Martin Sheen for starters.

Regarding the fear of Islam, I can point to a British TV satire show that ridiculed Jesus, honored (as a secondary prophet) by the MOSLEMS as "Issu." When Christian groups complained, they laughed it off or ignored them. Then Islamic groups complained, and the people who made the show profusely apologized. Just like with the former Soviet Union, the liberal attitude is, "Don't make them mad."

As a final point to other critics of Medved, he does not believe Christianity is the only way to view the world. If he did, he would not be a practicing Jew, which he is.

Is the right guilty of religious hypocrisy at times? Of course it is. I just don't like the way liberals get all offended when anyone dares question their beliefs and criticizes their arrogant self-righteous, which at least equals that of any right-winger.

Good post, Bill
Bill writes: Wednesday, April, 23, 2008 5:27 AM
Shortsighted Rabble

That's a fine post.

I asked someplace the other day why everybody has it that Tibet becomes any of our business. the same hotsy totsies who decry our work in the middle east are grieving over Tibet, WHY?

Because Richard Gere is worked up about it? Tibet belongs to China just as Cuba belongs to Fidel. I don't think it's any coincidence the unrest over there is timed for prolonged Olympics demonstrations. It's regrettable that China uses force to quash such overt political uprisings. But the people there have traditionally understood; if we want peace we must be peaceable.

Short-sighted rabble?
Bill -

I do not blieve interfering with the Olympic torch runners was justified. Protesting without violence, however, is totally legal and legitimate.

As for what was Tibet before China invaded, I would say that was none of China's business. I have no doubt you opposed the American invasions of Afghanistan (I support it) and Iraq (I do not). If the US invaded any country for the reasons China invaded Tibet or any other reasons, I believe you would wail and rant against it - unless we became a Socialist or Communist nation of course. Why is imperialism only wrong when a Western nation does it?

sticking it to the Islamists
On 1/21/2001 the price of a barrel of oil was $21. It is approaching $120 a barrel today. Who here, thinks we are sticking it to the Islamists? Can anyone tell me where Iran gets all of its money to pursue its nuclear ambitions?

When the king of Saudi Arabia visits the President at his ranch in Crawford Texas, don't they hold hands? Who here, can tell me, who the largest financial contributor to Islamic terror is?


Pat, you are wrong on several fronts
First, "Moslem" is not considered the correct spelling or pronunciation for "Muslim". Being a Muslim since birth. I can pretty much attest to that.

Also, you clearly was mistaken in regards to Muslims ridiculing Jesus. The name "Issa" is simply the name translation as many like yourself do (there is no "J" in the Hebrew alphabet).

You also probably didn't know that Muslims consider Jesus the Messiah, who came to this earth via virgin birth and will someday return. But, I digress.....

dreadnought
"our work in the middle east" Is this what the War on Terror is called now? This sounds like a phrase that might be used by a liberal social engineer.

zapdoodat
I think that we tend to forget that not all of our oil comes from Saudi Arabia or the Middle-East for that matter. Have you ever driven across the country. I have. I was very surprised to see how many oil fields we have around the country today. As you know, a lot of these companies are AMERICAN companies and they are still charging us OPEC rates.

We are getting screwed royally. Just check Yahoo Finance today. Supplys are high. Demand is low. Why do we still have record prices? Plus, they are now saying they will reduce refinery capacity to Katrina levels. Convenient huh?

As if to prove
Medved's point...
It seems the majority of responses to this thread are of the 'attack Christianity' type.

Go Figure!

For God And Country
W/O=

R.A.M.
very true, but it has been for a very long time that America's insatiable demand for bigger and bigger cars and bigger and bigger houses that has created the demand that fuels the rise in the price of oil.

What would happen to the price of oil if the American demand for foreignn oil was taken off the oil market? We can't even be bothered to drive smaller cars!

Zapdoodat
Check the stats. Our usage/consumption hasn't rised that much; surely not in the same proportion to the rise in gas/oil prices.

These companies are taking full advantage of a "friendly" administration and are making their money off the backs of Americans. As any businessman knows, deals/sales are only good if they work well for the buyer and the seller. If the balance is off, it eventually bursts; similar to what our economy is doing right now.

In any event ...
... it looks like we're going to have to choose, on the one hand, a veteran fighter pilot who remained loyal to his country (even under torture), and on the other hand, a lawyer.

Happy Jake
Still puzzled by what you think of as a double standard. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have also both been accused of being anti-semites and hatemongers. I don't know that either has been called a fundamentalist, but the idea that they have not been subject to the same kinds of criticism that Robertson has is just bizarre.

Obama spoke at Warren's church as part of a series which I believe included mostly conservatives. So where is the double standard in there being no tax evasion problem for letting Obama speak when there was none for allowing republicans to speak?

Threats of taking away tax-free status have always been spotty, and should be avoid where possible. But it is not true that they have been one sided.

The church in South Carolina that posted the Obama Osama, Hmmm message out front was being repugnant. But it has no reason to worry that it will lose its tax-free status.

The double standard you are seeing still seems to come from comparing apples to oranges.

think-4-yourself
I am glad to be supported here, which is a rare thing. But I would no go so far as to attribute to Medved the claim that conservatives are not allowed to speak on these subjects.

I think he is claiming that liberals have been more critical of conservatives for their religious remarks when they have given similar remarks by liberals a free pass. I think that is certainly true to a degree, although certainly no more than it is true of conservatives with the side switched. Although conservatives seem more likely to challenge the authenticity of the beliefs which seems to me to be even worse when there is no basis for doing so.

Some of the difference is probably legitimate. Conservatives do seem to want to base policy on their religious beliefs, which is rather different than simply taking encouragement from them. Others is based on the very human weakness of recognize the mote in ones opponents eye while ignoring the log in ones own. So that part is regretable, but understandable.

Bikernight
You raise an interesting theological question. I don't know if there is a general view that people who feel the presence of God in non-political situations therefore have political positions that are themselves inspired by God. I kind of hope not because it would make God pretty schizophrenic given the wide range of political views of the people who have them.

I think it does make a difference whether one is claiming the presence of God during the decision making process rather than simply in ones life since childhood. But I can see someone disagreeing. Certainly the Harrises and Dawkins of the world disagree about this and would argue that both Clinton and Bush are making mystical claims that make them less fit for office.

I suppose people on the other side should be making the claim that they are both making claims that make them more fit for office. I don't see anyone actually making that claim which is why I have some suspicions about the seriousness of this charge against Clinton. After all it is being made here primarily by people who would think it a plus if said by someone who agreed with their politics.

but wait....
you really do not want to talk about religion and politics. Just look to the POPE who just left here, he speaks to illegals as needing Americans help, he never apologizes for molesting children for decades, he just says we need to move on, we need to heal.

The Catholic Church in Chicago, Los Angeles, is telling their congregation to disobey laws in place by this country, but they still maintain their tax status. Look at FLDS, a religious organization with tax exempt status, while receiving government entitlements, molesting young children, everyone knows what they do, but yet they keep the status, privacy and property.

If the Catholic Church was a daycare company, where do you think the CEO of the daycare would be, for all the child predators they have hidden and protected for decades. Yeah, I know not the same thing.

OMG!!

Pat
So to substantiate your statements about liberals, you cite a British TV satire show?

"When have they ever condemned any enemy of the West in general and America in particular since 1945?"

The left doesn't embrace the "enemy" mentality of the right (a very Christian inclination). When Democrats resumed control of congress however, they implemented nearly all of the remaining 911 Commission recommendations.

"Where have they ever defended any Christian belief except the ones I've mentioned?"

Actually the right often condemns the left for complying with Christian principles. First and foremost we have the Blame America First charge. Consider Matthew 7:

1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Isn't it Christian to "Blame America First"?

Pat cont'd
Or how about Matthew 5:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him and offer the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Now compare that with Karl Rove's statement:

"Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers,"

And we have Matthew 5:

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”

Compare that with George H. W. Bush’s remarks on the USS Vincennes shooting down an Iranian civilian airliner:

“I will never apologize for the United States of America. I don’t care what the facts are.”

Or Tom DeLay's remarks on Bill Clinton apologizing for Cold War biases in Africa:

“Here’s a flower child with gray hairs doing exactly what he did back in the ‘60s: He’s apologizing for the actions of the United States. … It just offends me that the president of the United States is, directly or indirectly attacking his own country in a foreign land.”

You can't have it both ways.

Hillary and religion
Has she ever shown in any way any evidence that Christianity has ever influenced her behavior? Is this another example of her saying or doing just anything that might enhance her political success.
Where has she shown compassion for the poor? Where has she shown allegiance to telling the truth?

Don
Read her book, It Takes a Village. It's all there.

Christians and "Christians"
Many "mainline" Protestant denominations have abandoned Christianity and the Bible. Their members keep claiming to be Christian, but it's a Christianity that they make up for themselves.

Sen. Obama's "church," the UCC, is a prime example. If there's anything clear in the New Testament, it's Paul's condemnation of homosexuality and instruction to expel the immoral brother. Yet they ordain practicing homosexuals.

I've seen a UCC "church" in my hometown eagerly welcoming speakers from the "Jesus Seminar." The basic point of the "Jesus Seminar" is that the New Testament is false, and they alone have insight into the "true," the "historical," Jesus. And guess what? Their "historical" Jesus is a Marxist Revolutionary! Who knew?

Of course, the "black theology" taught by Sen. Obama's supposedly "Christian" UCC "church" is different. You see, in James H. Cone's "black theology," Jesus isn't a Marxist Revolutionary. He's a black Marxist Revolutionary who hates white people.

I do believe that there remain many Democrats who are true, Bible-believing Christians. They are in 2 categories:

(1) One group is mostly quite old, and haven't come to grips with the fact that the Democratic party abandoned them about 40 years ago.

(2) The second group is black, and incorrectly believe that Republicans are black-hating racists.

Packrat and Phylo
Your posts raise an interesting question: what is religion, anyway? Packrat, you say that it's a "set of beliefs," but I don't think that's enough. Economics is a "set of beliefs," and so is science. Are they "religions"?

I don't mean to be tongue-in-cheek. I think that this is an important question. Under our current First Amendment jurisprudence, any system of beliefs classified as a "religion" has both special privileges and special restrictions.

In the case of Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), the Supreme Court majority stated in a footnote that "Secular Humanism" was a religion.

The Faith Question... Again
The Media hasn't assailed neither President Bush not Republican for a claim of faith.

What is often questioned, and rightfully so, is the claim that God has inspired us to wage war, and further, wage war in such a manner that the innocent are killed.

I believe that war is a necessary evil, as such, it should be executed with the Full Power of the Military, Precisely, and Accurately.

The notion that a claim of faith in God which encourages war and the accepted deaths of innocent children by our hand should go unchallenged is nonsense. Michael, and far too many Conservatives, has twisted and maligned the teaching of God in such a way that God & Country are one in the same, and to question one is to question the other.

Christian Nationalism is not Christianity.

I am not given to blind support of anything beyond my creator, not Country, not man. Many Conservatives, as I experience daily, have embraced & apply the tenets of religion with whom they agree and those that disagree in silence. The faith espoused is one of Country-God and the ideology is reflective of these combined practices. When one opposed Abortion, they are deemed Just, however, when one opposes a historical act of bombing (murdering) 100,000+ women & children, they are Traitorous.

I agree with Medved
Double standards apply in other areas as well. For all his faults, Jack Abramoff was far less dangerous than Jeremiah Wright. Imagine a Republican befriending such a hateful character. In terms of public speaking, Obama is totally inept, yet miraculously lionized by his party. Imagine the media aftermath if Bush cited 10,000 deaths in a tornado that only killed 10. In 8 years of presidency, Bush has never uttered anything as mindless as Obama's "bitterness" comment. Barack is being carried by an obsequious media. His ascendency casts serious doubt on the democratic party's perceived dominance.

GG-AZ
'Many "mainline" Protestant denominations have abandoned Christianity and the Bible.'

You should change that to MOST. You give Paul's example of condemning homosexuality as a sin. Jesus proclaimed that any man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery. This means that most Republicans live most of their adult life as adulterers, including Reagan, McCain and Newt. Why cherry-pick your outrage at sinners?

Jesus gives many quotes about giving to the poor. Too many of today's pretend-Conservatives have re-interpreted this to mean, "Give to the poor, so long as they put in a good day's work."

Jesus says, "It's harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

Want to give a definition of being 'rich'?

Today's mainstream churches preach the 'Gospel of Wealth' which is anti-ethical to the spirit of the New Testament.




GG-ZZ
Yes it's interesting how conservatives often claim to be the true Christians and then substantiate their view by citing Paul, e.g., "abandoning natural relations", "he who does not work should not eat".

Liberal Christians love to quote Christ himself. "Blessed are the Peacemakers". "You can't serve God and money." "I was hungry but you did not feed me...."

No, my mainline Protestant church (Lutheran) still squarely embraces Christian teachings.

Cam
If you force (by using federal funds)others to fund your belief in feeding the poor you are abdicating your responsibility in Christ's instruction to feed the poor.
He never said that theft (taxation) to accomplish feeding the poor is acceptable. What He was saying was with your time and your resources you should feed the poor. If others are willing to contribute their time/resources to assist you that would fall under His teaching. Forcing people to contribute is.....well, stealing!!!!

religion in politics
The bottom line is that religion is a private matter and should not be an issue in the politics of a secular republic.


US Constitution

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Article VI
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States

god likes abortionists?
you Know,i want to ask hilly rodham if she came to a religious epiphany and therefore supports the murder of the unborn?

YU KNOW, i was at the ford dealership and YOU KNOW, THE FIRST 2 WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF THE SMARTEST WOMAN IN THE WORLD'S MOUTH WAS : 'YOU KNOW'
YES HILLY, I KNOW.
as a president, you would appoint more ruth baderginsburgs as supremes. you would raise my taxes.
you know, you would give me mandatory health care if you can get congress to approve taking over 20% of the economy. they can't even run the va hospital.
You know, if i don't pay into MANDATORY Health Care, i heard you say that forced payroll deductions, garnishments, property sales would be used to enforce the plan because it would fail if 100% participation did not happen.
You know, if the plan fails or doesn't work can you put the beast back in the you know, box?
You know, I'll bet you can't.

adios,
Harvey
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english

you know, god wants abortions
you Know,i want to ask hilly rodham if she came to some twisted religious epiphany and therefore supports the murder of the unborn?

YU KNOW, i was at the ford dealership today and YOU KNOW, THE FIRST 2 WORDS THAT CAME OUT OF THE SMARTEST WOMAN IN THE WORLD'S MOUTH WAS : 'YOU KNOW'
YES HILLY, I KNOW.
as a president, you would appoint more ruth baderginsburgs as supremes. you would raise my taxes.
you know, you would give me mandatory health care if you can get congress to approve taking over 20% of the economy. they can't even run the va hospital.
You know, if i don't pay into MANDATORY Health Care, i heard you say that forced payroll deductions, garnishments, property sales would be used to enforce the plan because it would fail if 100% participation did not happen.
You know, if the plan fails or doesn't work can you put the beast back in the you know, box?
You know, I'll bet you can't.

adios,
Harvey
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english

treason
Why is it that there are so many treasonous christian conservatives?

When did conservatives quit caring about the constitution and become so much like the theocrats in Iran and Saudi Arabia?

hello dali
until more modern times, there were several hello dalais at the same time.
buddist monks used the dalai as a political tool, kinda like a flag.
and until information and news came out of shangri lai, the child picked as the hello dalai would meet a sudden illness that he would not survive at about age 17 ~. to let the dalai boy reach dalai manhood, he would then be in charge of the monk order in that hood. this would not be a good thing for the power behind the throne, who ruled and didn't need a ruler.
when the world and other buddhists were able to peer into the land of the lost, the practice had to end. finally the dalai was able to reach majority and rule the monastic orders.

is buddhism a religion? it appears more of a spiritual philosophy like confucism. the buddha on his death bed told his followers not to worship him or make images and temples to him. this would have been in direct opposition of his teachings.
adios,
Harvey
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english
p.s. the dalai does not approve of homosexuals or abortions. how come sewerwood seems thrilled by his appearances?

Lon
There is a huge difference in paying taxes for defense, which is a Constitutionally mandated expenditure vital to the health of any nation, and paying for a commodity that must be entirely a private sector consideration such as health care, or social security (which is a Ponzi retirement scheme).

If I don't like a service or product from a particular business, I take my money elsewhere. In so doing, I make an impact. Choice allows me to protect myself and my interests while at the same time helps to create the incentive in service or goods providers to keep my business by making me as happy as they can.

But with a government program, I can't do that. When government creates a new spending program that involves something not specifically enumerated in the Constitution, there is a legal mandate that makes it impossible for me to opt out and save my money on it because a program is not expected to be accountable with regard to its success or its failure. It is there for a politician to point to as government doing something about a particular issue. It is there to buy votes. To see it fail before a politician withdraws from public service would be a disaster, and they cannot allow that to happen. Government programs are not expected to succeed, only to exist.

But where are my rights in this regard? Doesn't my 10th Amendment rights protect me from paying such things as Universal Health Care, Social Security, or public education?

Hillary may say that her UHC may allow me to opt out, but I'll believe that when I see it.

I would rather die than force others to pay for my health care. I do not want to be a party to the theft of other people's wealth.

Howard Dean's comment
Mr Dean, I do not know who you worship, Mohamed or B.Hussein Obama. We, Christians talk to God by reading the Holy Bible and the same way as President Bush. America does not need enemy/ies because of your kind of people, you democrats DO NOT HAVE THE WILL TO WIN. YOU SHOULD BE CHARGE FOR TREASON FOR AIDING THE ENEMY BY YOUR COMMENTS AND NOT SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT.

Howard Dean's comment
Mr Dean, I do not know who you worship, Mohamed or B.Hussein Obama. We, Christians talk to God by reading the Holy Bible and the same way as President Bush. America does not need enemy/ies because of your kind of people, you democrats DO NOT HAVE THE WILL TO WIN. YOU SHOULD BE CHARGE FOR TREASON FOR AIDING THE ENEMY BY YOUR COMMENTS AND NOT SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT.

Shortsighted Rabble
Sorry to say, the government does not always keep the trains running on time in China.

During the Spring Festival the world watched as a "50-year" snow and ice storm paralyzed the country. Government led an immediate response. The well-organized, well coordinated assistance of the military, local officials and civillian resources averted what might have been an unmitigated disaster. I saw over 600,000 travellers stranded in the Guangzhou train station for days. Now, that's a crowd.

Not exactly Club Med, but they were fed, kept warm and housed, while everyone pitched in to untangle the mess. Leaders from President Hu on down personally and immediately joined workers: encouraging and praising, and enabling their restoration efforts.

The operative word here is "leaders." Contrast their immediate, personal engagement to government leadership in a similar event in - oh,say - New Orleans.

Trains are running again, people are back in their own homes, reconstruction continues apace, and leaders are widely praised - in public and in private - for their, well, leadership.

heyharvey
That’s one tough question. How about if you answer it first. Tell us what you think of our bombing campaigns during WWII.

Lon
Here's a truly substantive blog, featuring smart people who talk about important issues that I was directed to by another TH ex-poster: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com

DA
Your own delusions allow you to read too much into the Constitution. It says Congress shall make no law with regard to the establishment of a religion or the free exercise thereof. That means that the Federal Government cannot establish a national religion, nor can it do anything that sanctions the free exercise of religion. That means that religious people can and should hold positions of office in federal government, and that means that the federal government CAN make any religious expression.

States, on the other hand, CAN establish state religions in that tax money can go directly into the coffers of the established religion. Several states have done this in their histories, and it is perfectly legal to do so.

wayfinder
---It says Congress shall make no law with regard to the establishment of a religion or the free exercise thereof. That means that the Federal Government cannot establish a national religion, nor can it do anything that sanctions the free exercise of religion---

That is correct, and my religion says that all people are equal and have equal rights and that gays should be allowed to marry.

---that means that the federal government CAN make any religious expression---

No, if the government expresses a religious viewpoint then they are supporting a specific religious viewpoint to the detriment of all others.

As I said, if you want to live like that, then you can move to iran where prayer is legislated, homosexuals are stoned and abortion is illegal. You don't have to undermine our constitution, just move.

gay rights soprters are going to HELL!
"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)

John McCain is the only cannidate that will fufill our presidents war on islam. What we need in these endtimes is a good strong coneretive anti-libaral, non-hippie who holds true to the word of our lord. I really hope WHEN McCain becomes president he lives up to the republican platform and ends abortion, criminalizes gay sex and marrage and stops de-regulashion. We need to invade andor nuke iran and all these terriorists before its too late. This is exacly what the bible pridected would happen if the world fell away from his word. Armogeddon is close at hand we must stop them as a global force and unite christians and live as the word would tell us. and wage war against the non-beilevers and democarats and libarals.

"The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked." (Psalms 58:10)
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.