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Wednesday, April 16, 2008
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Will Hillary's 'Secretary Of Poverty' Solve Problems Of The Poor?
by Michael Medved
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Would the establishment of a new cabinet level “Department of Poverty” enable the government to cure, finally, the frustrations and hardships of America’s poor?

Hillary Clinton apparently believes that it would, and thereby illustrates the vapidity and illogic at the very core of contemporary liberalism.

In a Memphis speech meant to honor the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King, the New York Senator and Presidential candidate claimed that she, too, had a dream.

“I believe we should appoint a cabinet level position that will be solely and fully devoted to ending poverty as we know it in America,” she solemnly intoned. “A position that will focus the attention of our nation on the issue and never let it go. A person who I could see being asked by the president every single day what have you done to end poverty in America? No more excuses. No more whining, but instead a concerted effort.”

The media largely ignored her proposal but her former rival John Edwards applauded it. His formal reaction declared: “America’s need to address the great moral issue of poverty demands strong action and a cabinet level poverty position is exactly that kind of action.”

Creating a new job in government amounts to “strong action”?

Mr. Edwards can’t be serious. The only American to feel the impact of such “action” would be the individual hired to fill the job.

The entire proposal highlights the Democratic Party’s current addiction to the politics of gesture dictated by the “Do Something Disease.” Under the grip of that dread malady, public figures feel the compulsion to stage a response to any perceived problem – even if that reaction accomplishes nothing in terms of meaningful solutions.

The Do Something Disease compels posturing that shows off the compassion of politicos, rather than policies that actually improve the lives of afflicted citizens. Results don’t matter, as long as the leader manages to demonstrate concern. Good intentions—feelings-- count for everything, with no consideration of real world consequences.

If nothing else, these high-minded, low-impact initiatives may lead the public to shrug: “At least they tried to help the situation. It’s better than doing nothing.”

Consider the last time we focused on the goal of eradicating poverty across the country: Lyndon Johnson’s “War On Poverty” cost an estimated five trillion dollars over the course of thirty years but, as President Reagan suggested: “We fought a war on poverty. And poverty won.”

Similarly, the Carter Administration (in one of its many triumphal “reforms” of domestic and foreign policy) established the United States Department of Education in 1979 – a bureaucratic monstrosity that now employs 5,000 hard-working officials and spends nearly $70 billion a year of the people’s money. Would anyone suggest that this new “cabinet level department” solved the problems in American education?

Yet Senator Clinton clings to the touchingly naïve belief that creating a similar department to cure poverty will bring every last American into the middle class with “no more excuses” and “no more whining.”

Her promise to “end poverty as we know it” deliberately echoes her husband’s 1992 pledge to “end welfare as we know it” – a pledge realized, thanks to the Gingrich-controlled Congress, in 1996. There’s a key difference, however: ending “welfare as we know it” meant terminating a government program, which is an undertaking well within the power of public officials. Ending poverty, however, means altering part of the human condition – which governments may attempt, but never can achieve.

No Secretary of Poverty, for instance, no matter how dedicated or talented or lavishly funded, will be able to prevent suffering for a fourteen year old girl who gives birth to a baby and drops out of high school while functionally illiterate. This same official will similarly fail to rescue a heroin addict and gang member who goes to jail for burglary and assault, and returns to a life of drugs and crime upon his release. An unskilled new immigrant with six children (even if all of them enter the country legally, with proper documentation) may need to go through several years (at least) of poverty, despite official determination to end inequality. There’s also little chance to give security to a family with small children whose father gambles away all resources at local casinos, even while compiling prodigious credit card debt to live above his means.

In other words, much of today’s poverty stems from bad choices and self-destructive behavior, rather than a lack of bureaucratic attention. The president may hector a new Secretary of Poverty (and every other Cabinet official, for that matter) with the daily question “what have you done today to end poverty in America,” but it’s safe to assume that poverty still won’t end. It’s a relative status in any event: today’s “poor”-- with their cell phones, color TV’s, DVD players, air conditioners, cars, Medicaid, free lunches and food stamps – would have been considered middle class some fifty years ago.

At a time of looming bankruptcy for Medicare and Social Security, the apparently straight-faced idea of launching yet another cabinet department (to complement other worthy recent additions like the briskly efficient Departments of Energy, Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, Veterans Affairs and more) qualifies as a form of lunacy.

But then we’ve already got a Secretary of Health and Human Services to deal with such craziness.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Welfare for everyone?
I could have sworn I heard Hillary announce something about it being our responsibility to end world poverty. Some sort of world welfare program. Did anyone else catch that?

my blog
come see http://www.aftercancernowwhat.wordpress.com

Here's what it comes down to...
It's really all a matter of the role of government. Liberals generally argue for the more activist and expensive kind, resulting in less freedom, higher taxes, and punishment for those who are successful. The liberal tradition is to make promises of government programs to gain enough votes to be put in power (study the history of the Tammany Hall democrats).

Conservatives will argue for less government, allowing for more freedom, and stronger support for economic life to the broader benefit of society. My problem with conservatives is that there's no follow-through. This is the philosophy, but the champions still grow the government to astronomical proportions. From Reagan to Bush, such philosophy has appealed to voters, but still government has grown.

Conservatives of the Goldwater / Buckley kind remain without a champion, voting each cycle for the ones who come closest in philosophy and then dealing with disappointment as political realities (perhaps, or is it cowardice?) bring an ever-larger government on our backs.

The problem is that liberals still try the old Tammany Hall tactics: Promise that government will grow ever more in programming, even adding cabinet posts on poverty, and that this will solve the problems. This means more taxes, of course, but they will avoid saying so, and rely on vapid promises to get elected. Hmmm... how is this not continuing the same actions and expecting a different result?

Both sides disappoint. The only answer is individual action, a "my program" that gives charitably, volunteers, shows compassion, turns hearts toward virtue and hope, strengthens families and friendships and encourages charitable living.

Seems to me that I can do this program now regardless of who's elected. But I will also vote, and when I do it will be for any candidate who stands for less government. And then I just hope for the follow-through that will make this a reality.

And furthermore...
In your original note, Deathstar, you asked,
" Why are conservatives so fixated on liberals?"

Uh, we are not "fixated". You would just like to think so. I suppose it is a bit of shock and awe at times, but the feeling dies VERY quickly...

"Both of the above posts are repeats of TH lib-bashing that goes on and on".

If you don't like what is said here, don't come to the site. There are plenty of websites out there for everyone's opinion. As a matter of fact there are some pretty wicked places to go online where people can "bash" those "neo-cons", and us gun-loving, bitter people that "cling" to religion...

Next question you asked was,
"What is it about us that you find so fascinating?"
Uh...hmm...who is fixated now?" You must be really concerned about this if you are really rephrasing and extending question #1...

Your questions to me continue:
" Here's another question: Do you actually find everything McCain, Bush, Rice, etc. are saying or have said is that truthful? (Actually McCain has stated opposing views so often he's believable at least half the time)

If your answer is no, why aren't you writing about them?"
Well, Deathstar, I don't see why I have to. I wrote what I wrote about the Department of Poverty people, and I don't feel I need to come full circle here for your benefit.

oh, and here is your next comment...
"If it's yes, God help you. God help all of us".

I think you just might be implying here that I am SO MISGUIDED that I just need God's help and intervention to help me see the light, and error of my conservative ways. And yes, with the state of affairs in this country, I do totally agree that we should all ask God to help us. We all need it!

My two original posts
Deathstar, were about my belief that the political candidates in the debate used a lot of Orwellian language, and in general, it is MY OPINION that those candidates are not the best choices to lead this country. They hold positions that I disagree with. I apologize if that was not clear, but that is not "lib-bashing", as you stated. I can disagree with the concepts of liberalism or a specific candidates views without "bashing" them.
By the way, I am perfectly calm, and I know you dont hate me! Wow. You really made my day! I feel so much better now! A sincere thank you!




Stands His Ground
"But to answer your question on what you think we conservatives must find so fascinating about you liberals: that so many of you who think as you do"

Well, liberals find conservative beliefs somewhat fascinating as well, in a jaw-dropping kind of way, but we don't write, talk and think about you as much as you do about us.

You're not THAT fascinating.

Also, Maurine
You said

"I am happy I have the freedom to disagree with a position without hating or deriding the PERSON, like you did. "

Where did I say I hated anybody? And, I'm still curious, where in y our post is the position that you are disagreeing with actually stated?

I'm not deriding you and I don't hate you. I'm just asking for clarification. Please, calm down!

Maurine asks,
"If I disagree with a position, I am "bashing"?


Well, Maurine, I didn't reall interpret this as disagreeing with a "position" -

"The thing that burns me most is that Senators Obama and Clinton speak out to the people as though they think we are all stupid enough to believe what they are saying...they believe it..."Right is wrong, left is right, up is down, in is out."

What is the "position" you are disagreeing with here?

"Department of Poverty" and other jokes.
Why do we need a Department of Poverty if Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" was a such a smashing success? Or is Hillary admitting that the Great Society was a failure?


response
Politicians on BOTH sides use language to manipulate. You can disagree with an issue without begin "emotional" about it, and something I wrote about touched a nerve with you, obviously. I was discussing my perceptions of the debate, and that I disagreed with some (actually many) liberal positions. If I disagree with a position, I am "bashing"? That is a highly charged word, and I am happy I have the freedom to disagree with a position without hating or deriding the PERSON, like you did. And I didn't write anything about anyone else because I just happened to read the article that was about Hillary...and also, just because you "misspeak", if you believe something to be true based on the information you have, does that make it a lie? Hmmm...not according to politicians on either side of the board... Just curious...people in public office across the board say stuff to get elected, and you have to sort it out based on what you believe to be right. I am personally not convinced that either Hillary or Barack Obama are right to lead this country at this point in time, based on what I am hearing, reading, and seeing, and if you think that is "bashing" liberals, then so be it.

deathstar
As I said to JP2000 in my post of 4:50 pm yesterday, I'll say to you now. Your post of 1:18 pm sounds like a perfect example of projection: assuming to be true of others what is already true of you. You come to a conservative web site on which you know very well by now what you can expect, and you tell us conservatives that WE'RE fixated on YOU liberals?!

But to answer your question on what you think we conservatives must find so fascinating about you liberals: that so many of you who think as you do, if what you post on this site actually reflects your true thinking, can actually be functional adults (actually, many conservative posters to this site undoubtedly believe most of you are NOT functional adults). Also, the depth of mindless ignorance or suspension of belief or downright stupidity it requires for many liberals to hold the viewpoints they do in defiance of all logic and experience. Also, the degree of unabashed shamelessness it requires for many liberals to hold their publicly stated tenets while living in a way that's a total disconnect with what they say. And yeah, yeah, I know just what you'll say in response: that these things are as much true of if not much more so of conservatives. But we already know you think these things of us, because you come to this site to constantly remind us. Oh, and one final thing we find fascinating: judging by your apparent shock at the things you read on TownHall, that you liberals have apparently only just discovered that there's actually a great multitude of people out there who actually DISAGREE with you.


question for Maurine
Why are conservatives so fixated on liberals?

Both of the above posts are repeats of TH lib-bashing that goes on and on.

What is it about us that you find so fascinating?

Here's another question: Do you actually find everything McCain, Bush, Rice, etc. are saying or have said is that truthful? (Actually McCain has stated opposing views so often he's believable at least half the time)

If your answer is no, why aren't you writing about them?

If it's yes, God help you. God help all of us.

I read Animal Farm, by the way, I've been reminded of during the entire war on Iraq and the abrogation of our civil and legal rights.

Are candidates believeable?
The thing that burns me most is that Senators Obama and Clinton speak out to the people as though they think we are all stupid enough to believe what they are saying...they believe it..."Right is wrong, left is right, up is down, in is out. There, I said it, so it is, and just because I said it, then you should believe it is true." (even though it is obviously not). This is so condescending, and, yes, elitist... The debate was an abominable showing on the part of both candidates, and showed me that while they may be earnest, neither of these candidates is truly competent, knowledgeable about the tough issues facing our country, or BELIEVEABLE in their positions or communication to the American people. I just hope our country is not so naive on election day. Some people have caught onto the mantra of "change"-well, change just for change's sake is not always for the good...I was a Democrat for many years but then started feeling like the Democratic party was moving more toward Socialism, and far leftist thought...at this point, I know I am NOT a liberal, and though I have voted for Democrats in the past, I probably never was one...For those of you who are curious about what that really is, check out Dennis Prager's website at TownHall.com and take his quiz, "Are you a liberal?"

Department of Poverty
Hey, anyone ever read George Orwell? Animal farm is a terrific satire about communism/Marxism. 1984 is a classic satire about the manipulation of words and thought in our society to control people. The words coming from these two candidates are taking me back to these books in a way that is not comfortable at all...at this point it is downright creepy...Ministry of Poverty? Well, how about a Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Love, Ministry of Freedom. WOW!!!Check it out, its in the book---seriously. I do not doubt that these candidates believe in what they are saying, but what they say is simply unbelievable, naive, and unclear, misguided thinking, and they use very manipulative language, "doublespeak" and "newspeak" (to coin phrases from George Orwell). I can agree to disagree respectfully with a position, but let's be clear about what is the ISSUE, and not just pussyfoot around with the smooth talk and evasiveness, planning on us not catching on...

3 wire and Geek
You speak my mind exactly...thank god for people like you to keep the country on the right course.

But when we erase those tax=sucking loafers with a concentration camp or two I want to leave the ones who clean my house and fix up my yard.


I agree with posters here
Democrats are responsible for allthe poor people in America and the vbest thing would be to stop collecting all our taxes and let the ones who can't make it, die.

We would be better off, expecially without the children who suck up our money with free lunches and breakfasts. Medved's ideas about taking these children away from their parents and putting into orphanages doesn't go far enough, Dems would still count onour precious money to take care of them.

The poster who said that all the poor were "just drunks, brain fried druggies, the reckless, the lazy and obese citizens, the gamblers, the illiterate by choice, the PARASITES of our society" was right, and maybe if there enough cool heads here then lying dogooders like JP20000000 will just wither and die from stupid liberal interfering.

Good work, guys -- I'm glad there are still enough like-minded cons out here to carry the flag.




liberals
..I remember when Jimmuh Carter started the Dept of Education as a cabinet post.....our education system has been going down hill since. Democrats say they are the party of the "poor." I agree...their policies ensure there are so many of them.

Ruff
Wendy writes: " That the leader is always at fault -

Wendy, sometimes the leader is at fault - and that is the case for Sen Reid, Congresswoman Pelosi and almost every democrat. They believe in almost every tenent of Marxism. In fact, I don't know of any Marxist doctrine that they object to.

Our President is not always at fault - in fact he has been correct in most cases. Your problem is that living in downtown Manhatan the closest you've been to "Cowboys" is in a movie theater. Out in the heart of the USA, cowboys generally are thought of as patriotic, manly, god-fearing, dependable and able to defend their values.

It's time Wendy, to growup, get out of your parents house and get a job.




Matter of Interpertation
Poverty in this country means all the chillren in de famly do not have a cellphone. Most rooms in the project do not have a TV, boomboxes yes, but no bigscreens. AUX BARRICADES!

The poor
Hillary should read the Bible more often. Jesus said the poor will always be among us. (Mark 14:7) She might alway want to take a look at our history to see just how many billions of taxpayer dollars have been spent since the War on Poverty was initiated some 40 years ago. If either dimocrat gets elected, we're going to have a lot more poor than we do now. But don't tell either of them. They think we're too stupid and too bitter to know that.

Latest DHS Progress Report
for Operation "Naval Aviator" is that they've observed the target acting extremely paranoid when he leaves his house and watching over his shoulder a lot trying to make sure he's not seen.

He also frequently watches his mirrors and changes directions without warning. Taking vastly cicuitous routes to all destinations.
Obviously trying to shake anyone who might be following him.

Smile for the camera a bit more often, Chuckles.

A different take
I learned young that poverty wasn't my cup of tea, so I studied hard, worked hard and made sure my family was not going to live like that.

One reason I don't have much sympathy for those too lazy, unmotivated or selfish to better themselves is because of what I endured to avoid poverty. When I was in college (full time), I held down a full-time job and THREE part time jobs to pay the bills. I averaged two hours of sleep a day for the years I spent in college. Did I mention I was raising two sons at the time, or that I maintained a 4.0 GPA? People who gripe about how difficult or expensive it is to get a higher education disgust me.

There are ample resources for the impoverished, most of them from private charities and churches and some paid for by taxpayers. Got a sick kid who is uninsured? Ever heard of the Shriner's Hospitals? They provide world-class care and don't even have a billing department. Disabled veteran? Not only is the Department of Veteran's Affairs there to serve, there are countless support groups, such as the Disabled Veterans, American Legion, Marine Corps League, and on and on.

Many of us donate time or money to keep charities, churches or directly to those in need. (Not Obama, though, who listed less than 1% of his income to charitable giving. What a guy!) The resources are there, but people are either too ignorant or too deeply entrenched in the "entitlement mentality" that they turn to the taxpayers' teat as a first resort rather than as it should be, a last resort.

Retired Geek
Sorry 'bout that! (Maxwell Smart) He actually made a rational post on one of Amanda Carpenter's columns, and I had to compliment him. I have gone to the corner, washed my mouth out with soap and tried to file off my fingerprints in retribution, but he ACTUALLY POSTED SOMETHING RATIONAL! Amazing, and almost beyond belief. Keep me posted on your compilation, because I have been trying to joust with this thing for about six months and I have had better luck with trying to converse with comatose patients in the geriatric ward at the local hospital. Keep up the good work.

3wire
I appreciate your common sense and your ability to cut to the real problems outlined on this article.

Robert has brought many hours of mirth to us here. He seems perfectly happy in his alternate universe and is harmless in his innane comments and blabbering. He is sort of like the crazy "uncle" or kin that every family seems to have. I am compiling his senseless comments and mark the folder - TOP SECRET. When we get it in the hands of our enemies it should keep them busy several months trying to figure out what the h**l he's talking about.

Capitalism Does Not Require Poverty
JP20000 offers, "Capitalism requires an underclass in order to survive"

Absurd.

Capitalism requires consumers, not underclass. It really has no need for a class. It is made up of producers and consumers, whereby everyone plays both roles.

You may have this confused with your Socialism, which, indeed, does require an underclass, like the poor. In many cases, it is created and institutionalized with Welfare State programs and maybe even a poverty czar to insure good attendance.

Robert has Training
Someone said: "Robert forgot to take his meds and was found on the airplane ride outside a WalMart. He was dressed in his full regalia of scuba flippers, fish-net stockings, red polka dot boxers held up with 3" wide yellow suspenders, a tinfoil hat and a flashlight in each hand illuminating his hat, singing endless verses of "This foil hat of mine, I like to make it shine".

Someone said that Robert told authories: "I thought I was in a flight simulator training me on the art of war."

Someone said that Robert said: "I am really an undercover operative that will parachute into Iran dressed in a burkha to determine if the rays that are hurting my head come from there."

Local police chased him down with a net and are charging him with "not knowing anything of value."

Local Police also charged Robert with trying to lasso fish in a pond next to WalMart and sleeping on an old refrigerator in the city dump.


Robert
You define pejorative.

oldsocialworker
Thank you for the kind words. I have a great difficulty with people who can only reason by applying labels to abstract concepts, and then by manuplating the labels attempt to construct a logical argument. The best example is JP20000's confusion of poverty with helplessness. In my experience, the poor are poor because of poor choices, not because of the actions of others. Also, notice how JP20000 refused to answer my question about who was paying him, or how he could spend nine (9) hours monitoring a single thread on a website that he obviously holds in Obama like contempt. Strange for someone who styles themself as attempting to reason with others, don't you agree? My money's on Soros funding for that uninformed, inexperienced, liberal (forgive me) Pod Person.

JP20000
If what you say has so much gravitas, why must you resort to pejorative terms when addressing the rest of us? If nothing else, such name calling clearly shows your contempt, and Obama like disdain for we great unwashed, unenlightened, bible thumping, gun clinging, homophobic, xenophobic misfits. Or have I misread your "feelings?"

Mac Moore
Great Post! 10:36pm

Satndshisground
Sense cannot be talked into anyone who clings to a construct that yields a self worth and identity that makes you (in the abstract) better than other people. Its especially impermeable when there are recepticals for latent rage and the subsequent self-righteousness; in this case, conservatives. Sigh.

But its fun to vent!

Poverty & Helpless Are Not Same
JP2000 offers, "your overall message seems to be that helping people is a way of keeping them poor and in need. My point is that there are people who can only be helped, they can't work, for any number of reasons, and there lives cannot be essentially improved."

The article's topic has to do with ending poverty, not ending helplessness. There is a difference. They are not the same and should not be confused.

My responses only deal with the wide scope of poverty as set forth in the article. The Welfare State has institutionalized poverty by trying to make those that are poor at comfortable and at home, instead of allowing for methods that attract them out of poverty. Creating a poverty czar would only make things worse by creating a new bureaucracy of attendance.

If you prefer to talk about the helpless, write an article and send it in for discussion.

JP2000000000000000000
"The great 'sin' to you might be not taking care of the poor - the great 'sin' to me is stealing what I have worked for my entire life."

We DO take care of the poor, the same way some parents take care of their 43 year old son who lives in their basement playing Guitar Hero all day (I know cases like this). You really have no idea, do you?

JP2000
This is the last thing I have to say to you on this thread. You're right about me and Retired Geek sounding alike insofar as this goes: we BOTH lose patience with those who cannot add 1+1 and apparently lack the mental capacity to do so. You haven't answered my challenge from my previous post (nor the challenges of others, like Retired Geek's challenge to you in his post of 8:08 pm), but frankly, at least from MY perspective, don't even bother now: even amidst the many liberal posters who "grace" TownHall with their typical very-poorly-thought-out to downright ludicrous submissions, you're proven yourself to be in a class by yourself. I'll actually give you some friendly advice: if you need to fortify yourself in your conviction that we conservatives are just a bunch of black-hearted villians, and it's obvious to me that you desperately DO need that "reinforcement" to make you feel good about yourself, go over to any thread by Michelle Malkin or Mike Adams or Ann Coulter, if you haven't already, and read the comments posted to THEIR columns and you'll find yourself in self-satisfied heaven. Even better yet, why don't you just simply take your "business" to the DailyChaos or HuffandPuff and spout off against conservatives there like you do here? I'm sure there's a great multitude over on those blogs just waiting to give you the adulation you obviously have an overweening psychological need for.

Retired Geek, oldsocialworker, 3wire, Mac Moore, and others, I'll leave it to you to see if you can actually talk some sense into JP2000. Although probably the only thing that at this point that would do the trick is for him to be a serious victim of a major violent crime by one of the criminal he argues we need to show "compassion" to. You know what they say, what's a conservative? A liberal who's been mugged.

Hey, JP 20000000000000000
Totally ignored me! My self esteem is now damaged, and I have no choice but to go commit crimes! Thanks alot, JP2000000000000!!

Retired Geek
Picture all that under construction!! Route 29 is always under construction, route 1 crowded by orange cones and trucks! Turning around, jug handles and all, takes forvever! No matter what I did, I kept heading south though the signs said north! I know its a loop, but sheesh! I had a route all mapped out, the one I've used for years, but now construction has changed it for the time being.

Robert did you make appt.
Did you make an appointment with the Dr. about your HalBert problem?

This could be something serious if you don't get treatment soon.

Retired, stands, et. al.
I give up. You can all tell each other how evil we liberals are, it seems to make you all feel good. Have at it.

Good night.


Robert, et. al.
I laughed out loud when I read your post. Keep it up.

StandhisGround and 3 wire
It's pretty obvious I get you mixed up with retired Geek. You both sound exactly alike, and say the same things.

In fact, all of the conservatives on this thread say the same things, generally reduceable to 4-word slogans.

3Wire: I haven't been posting for 9 hours straight, but you're right, I've spent way too much time trying to have a civil discussion on TH.

What was I thinking? It's pretty clear from today that cons are only intersted in having their own thoughts parroted back to them.

If I ever have thoughts that exactly mirror your own I'll post them (maybe) and then you can all tell me how smart I am. Isn't that the point of an echo chamber?

oldsocialworker
When I first moved to NJ I asked my partner who was a NJ native. Why do the 295 signs say 'South' when we are heading due north and why do they say 295 North when we are heading due South. He responded you haven't lived here long enough to understand. I never did understand in the 10 years I lived there. I do think the cup handles are a good idea for left turns.

Retired
This is the statement I was thinking of:

"One of the 10 commandments says "Thou shall not steal".

The great 'sin' to you might be not taking care of the poor - the great 'sin' to me is stealing what I have worked for my entire life."

I just assume when people refer to the 10 commandments and sin, that the bible is part of that. My bad.

3wire

Your 9:30 post is exquisite! You have nailed the matter of poverty concisely. I tend to talk too much- you have done well.

Hillary solutions
"We need to stop worrying about the rights of the individual and start worrying about what is best for society." -- Hillary Clinton

"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, June 28, 2004.
-------------------------------------------------

Hillary won't tell us the definition of "things" only that she is going to "take them".

Retired Geek
Yes, yes! But I got stuck on 295, or 95, or whatever!! It all seems to go south no matter what I want!! So I did laps around Lawrence Township today! AAAGGH! Lots of detours due to construction, so I was cranky until I found the turnpike! Oh, Campbell's Soup is still there! But there are guards and all that for the parking lot.

Today's meeting had me and a couple of others reeling with disbelief. Somehow the Jews have destroyed NJ- which was the brilliant deduction of a few social workers. I am astonished but not surprised. We live in on the other side of the looking glass these days.

JP20000000000
"JP2000 wrote: "...but my question is, and nobbody ever tries to answer this, how are you going to separate the truly needy from the not-truly-needy? Who is going to decide who is deserving and who is not? Who is going to pay for the bureacracy that will make these decisions functional"


This is SIMPLE:

When a "preference" or "value system" requires that others subsidize it, it is NOT A NEED.

Front line social workers can ALWAYS answer this question. Its not a matter of "deserving", its a matter of what is being produced as a result of intervention! How much more bureaucracy, do you suppose, has to be paid for? In my experience, it has NEVER been any program that has enacted change, it has been- EVERY TIME- personal decisions and actions by people who wish to avoid poverty.

Old habits die hard, huh, JP2000
As Ronald Reagan would say, "There you go again!" You MUST be a Hillary Clinton supporter, because you keep channeling her Bosnia sniper incident: claiming something other than what the visual evidence leaves no doubt of. In our back-and-forth yesterday on Dennis Prager's thread, you claimed I said something I never said, and when I challenged you to show I said it, you denied that you had ever claimed I said it, whereupon I quoted your own words in your own post to prove you wrong. Old habits die hard, huh?

You just claimed in your 9:12 pm post "I didn't refer to the Bible in the first place". Let's go to the videotape (in this case, your post at 8:32 pm) - and I QUOTE: "Doesn't your bible have anything to say about the poor? I must have a rogue copy". Would you like to deny your own words - AGAIN?! I'll ask the same question I asked at the end of my post on Prager's thread yesterday when I confronted you with your own words that proved you untrue: care to comment?

JP20000
You've been posting on this thread for over nine (9) hours. Who is paying you? Or are you on welfare and have nothing else to do except recite inane, big government, socialist ideas? The issue of poverty must be addressed at the local level because, if for no other reason, everyone is poor for a different reason, and the solving of the problem creating the poverty must be addressed with the individual, not by a bureaucracy. The problem with liberal think is that you believe you can create a one-size-fits-all solution to any problem. Can't be done.

oldsocialworker
I see you survived Camden!

Thank God!

JP2000 read your own posts
I lose patience with those who cannot add 1+1 and have the mental capacity to do so.

I have in the past and will in the future call them lamebrains.

I have spent a lot of time teaching reading skills in prisons. My first personal (none paid)project when I was 18 was to teach my grandfathers laborers how to sign their names on their checks.

'oldsocialworker' who has posted here knows the uphill battle of trying to help some people. She has spent her life trying to help and she is a conservative.

The liberal solution to a farmer who has lost money selling a truckload of his corn - "get a bigger truck".

Retired
"The decisions can't be made by the people who caused the problem "

I absolutely agree. But that begs the question - who should? And is it even possible?

My point is not that we should spend more money, my point is that we can't dismiss all of the people who need help in this country because we don't like the actions of some, or even most of them, for that matter.

I don't know much about economics, but I think that paying farmers to grow food for the poor has it's own problems, and it's really just another way of using tax money for the poor, no?
Someone has to pay those manufacturers and farmers and in the end it's you and me. And, I'm not sure this will end, or at least, diminish poverty either.

Also, my own experience has shown me that the truly poor need disaster relief almost more than they need food - they seem to always be dealing with different crises, and their problems are at least as much about transportation, health care, paying the heating bill, theft and crime (because they live in marginal neighborhoods) -- there always seems to be an iminent disaster.

I've got to run an errand, I'll check back later.

JP20000000000
"Local governments don't have money, state governments don't have money, and much of what they do get comes from the feds. We are dried out from this war and the economy, which has already begun tanking and is probably going to get worse, has created whole communties of newly poor and hungry."

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. None what so ever.

We have ALOT of money in local gov't! I am charged with the duty of finding a way to spend $8,000.00 by June 30- every year! That's just me, one social social worker! Gov't soesn't budget money- its spends it to retain the funding levels for each fiscal year, whether it needs to be spent or not. The war will have no impact at all for at least 10 years- what we have now is out of control social spending , bloated gov't, and open borders. As a type, NJ taxpayers will be footing the bill for illegal Nigerian immigrants to fly home, get their LARGE families, and fly back to be put of social services, given housing, special education and health care.

You are not in the system and have no idea what is going on. Shut your pie hole.


JP2000
JP2000 wrote: "...but my question is, and nobbody ever tries to answer this, how are you going to separate the truly needy from the not-truly-needy? Who is going to decide who is deserving and who is not? Who is going to pay for the bureacracy that will make these decisions functional?"
-------------------------------------------------

The decisions can't be made by the people who caused the problem - they have a vested interest in protecting their own ideas and policies.

America has already spent over 3 trillion dollars and we are told poverty still exists because we didn't spend enough.

America could have easily paid manufacturers and grocery stores and farmers to make and grow certain foodstuffs that would sustain life and make them available on the honor system. Anyone could take a limited amount each day whether a billionaire or a street person. This would stop hunger overnight and do away with thousands of government workers and agencies.

To conclude the conclusion
The "big houses" the Jews have were bought when they we uninhabitable hovels and the real estae was cheap because no one wanted to live in the area!! They moved in, renovated, and brought decency to the area. Now there are those who accuse them of having been "given" the houses at the expense of the illegals!

A poverty overlord? For more of these god-awful reality benders to have greater reach??

Standhisground
you said to me "people who truly take the message of the Bible seriously don't lecture OTHER people on what THEY need to be doing, they just do themselves."

I didn't refer to the bible in the first place, Retired Geek did. It's not anything I would have brought into the discussion to begin with.

Actually, everbody interprets it to suit their own agenda, so what use is it in terms of social policy or attitudes?

Retired - I meant to ask
Why do you continue to be so nasty? Can you talk about this without the personal insults?

Retired
Thanks for answering my question. Of course I don't think that these comments reflect the way all conservatives think, I think any sentence that says, "conservatives (as a group) is as stupid as any sentences that lumps liberals all together. Having said that, though, I admit I've probably been guilty of it myself.


Sorry, I think you asked me to address a previous post but I can't find it.

and
Local governments don't have money, state governments don't have money, and much of what they do get comes from the feds. We are dried out from this war and the economy, which has already begun tanking and is probably going to get worse, has created whole communties of newly poor and hungry.

There are no jobs that will support families. Prices are going up and unemployment benefits are running out. OUr local charity cannot keep up with the rise in demands for food, clothing, gas, and emergencies. Poverty is crisis-bound, and chaotic - things break down, fires start, and social problems like alcohol abuse and domestic violence take over out of frustration and despair. I saw this happen in the lumber towns when I lived in Oregon and the mills went out of business.

Addressing the issue of poverty has to do with entire communities, not just your personal desire to be left alone to get high and listen to Pearl Jam. During the "great depression", when America's impoverished set up a tent city in Washington, we were as close to revolution as we had ever been. Think of it as something that speaks to your own personal interests.

Mac - 2 part
"The conversation, here, has to do with Government intervention, such as a poverty czar, welfare and other methods that essentially institutionalizes poverty, instead of ending it."

I take your point..however, your overall message seems to be that helping people is a way of keeping them poor and in need. My point is that there are people who can only be helped, they can't work, for any number of reasons, and there lives cannot be essentially improved.

Of course I know there are people who are locked into generational poverty that is truly enabled by outside support...but my question is, and nobbody ever tries to answer this, how are you going to separate the truly needy from the not-truly-needy? Who is going to decide who is deserving and who is not? Who is going to pay for the bureacracy that will make these decisions functional?


To conclude
The big belligerent toad who thinks the Jews are causing poverty for the illegals said, "Well, one day those big 'ol houses will have the rightful owners in 'em. We can do this!"

Translation: If you refuse to be a victim, prioritize education and industry, and as a result achieve a decent standard of living, what you acquire will be taken from you and given to those who prefer breeding to just about anything else.

Since Hillary's idea of ending poverty features the continued raiding of the productive in order to finance exactly what makes matters worse, plan on being poor if it comes to fruition. Oh, and there are social workers rallying for the US to deal with the "coyotes",who are the thugs in Mexico and South America that rape, rob, and otherwise molest those attempting to cross the boarder(s) in order to get here. Somehow, we've caused that as well and must "do something".

No only should we not stop illegals, we should clean up their countries and give up our houses. DO NOT think this can't happen!! Did you ever expect to see things degenerate to the level we currently are horrified by even 20 years ago?

Retired Geek, Mac Moore & kingsXrulz
Don't let your hair go gray (or all fall out) waiting for a serious discussion of what to do about poverty from JP2000. Since he's already conceded that he has no plan himself for what to do on poverty, in reading his posts, it''s quite obvious to me that what he's about is bashing conservatives' supposed lack of compassion to give himself some kind of imagined moral superiority. He mentions the Bible in his post of 8:32 pm, but I can promise you that this is just a fig leaf to give his opinions some kind of supposed moral gilding, because if he himself really took the message of the Bible as seriously as he would have us believe, he would have one quality which his posts shows he's seriously lacking in: HUMILITY! In case no pastor (if you've ever even had one to begin with) ever taught you this, JP2000, I will: people who truly take the message of the Bible seriously don't lecture OTHER people on what THEY need to be doing, they just do themselves. You neatly embody the old saying that those who CAN, DO, and those who CAN'T (or WON'T), TEACH.

JP2000
JP2000 wrote "Compassion? I have read posters who suggest that the children of immigrants have their children picked up by their ankles and have their heads smashed against the nearest wall." ---- Who said this and When?----

"On a post above, a poster suggests that all people in need are drunks, inferiors, stupid, drug-addicted etc. How is that compassionate?"
----Many poor are addicts, drunks, prostitutes---

Doug and Medved wrote: "Poverty is a behavioral disorder" ----This is true in many cases and they need psychiatric care----

B2slim describes all the poor as "drunks, brain fried druggies, the reckless, the lazy and obese citizens, the gamblers, the illiterate by choice, the PARASITES of our society."
---This is true in many cases----

Mac Moore isn'[t interested in poverty issues, he just wants to be left alone. ---most of us are tired of being blamed for others behavior---
-------------------------------------------------

If your point is that ALL conservatives do not show compassion - you are a lamebrain to judge any group without knowing them.

You are going to say "but that is what conservatives do." - I am going to say you are NOT responsible for what others do. You are responsible to God FOR judging others. The only thing you have proved so far is - That you are guilty of what you say others do.

Not All Poverty Is Due To Imobility
JP20000 pleads, "Tell me about this senior world, where 80 year olds are just dying for a chance to unload trucks and stand on their feet all day at the local supermarket."

More absurdity. You are adressing your own inventions.

My comments have only addressed the institutionalization of poverty, whereby Welfare keeps poor people in their place. We do not need a poverty czar. Such a position would only further entrench the poverty further into a permanent residency.

If you have a specific case that justifies creating a Welfare State for all comers, I am interested in hearing about it. Now, maybe in your neighborhood, all people in poverty are hopelessly there forever and are in need of your meddling. Interesting.

Poverty will increase
in scope and severity. What is coming down the pike should freeze any thinking person's blood.

At a health and human services meeting in Trenton today, the focus was on the rights of illegals. Social workers were crowing about the "lack of respect" afforded the "cultural norms" of many Hispanic groups, including resistance to providing "reasonable housing" for the large families many Hispanic groups "prefer" to have. It seems there is a large concentration of illegals living in the Lakewood, NJ, area, who are "stuck working for the Jews who have big houses".

Incredible venom was directed at the Jews for having the nerve to be educated, self-sufficient, prosperous, and providing employment for people with no education or otherwise marketable skills. One big, belligerent Cretin social worker was angry that the Jews received their entitlement to transportation reimbursement for their kids' transport to private school! That, he reasoned like a stupid ogre, is the cause of governmental fianancial problems, not the illegals having and average of 5 children per family! My head was going to explode! The Jews are now the problem in NJ- for becoming doctors, dentists, accountants, etc...! Pre WW2, anyone??

Anyone who thinks nothing is being done for the poor and we need more poverty overlords should go to http://www.nj211.org and check out what's available in NJ.

JP2000 comment on this please
Liberalism is the poison that many have partaken of in America. This is NOT a party, Democrats and Republicans both have drank from the glass.

The poison is "collectivism" rather than individual rights. The smallest minority in America is the individual and their right to self-determination. We are not a nation as a group, we are individuals that are a nation.

The poison started in my life as LBJ and his great society. This was well intentioned but no one thought of the collateral damage that might occur e.g. women had a contract with the government. 1) They were paid not to work. 2) They continued to be paid if they did not marry a man who was working.

In general terms:
-------------------------------------------------
This began the break-up of the family. Children began to rebel because their was no male to stop them and discipline them. The government placed them in housing that grouped them together. Children carried the huge burden of not being like other children (which is the goal of most children) so they decided to carry it even further and gang together. They began to rebel against anything the other kids did - like be educated. Undisciplined, they resisted discipline in school and it become a badge of honor to disrupt.

I could go on about this or any other agency that derives its roots from "The Great Society".
The failure of the government and us voters was not to demand a measurement of success or failure and fix the problems or abandon the whole thing and try again.

The only antidote for this poison is to return to our roots of individualism instead of collectivism. Liberals have learned to stay in power they must acquiesce to collectivism.

What's the matter, Geek?
Unable to answer my question? Gee, I answered yours.

Afraid?

Charity And Social Policies Are Not Same
JP20000 offers, "OK. The next time my loca charity calls looking for someone to take an elderly person without cab fare to their doctor appointment, I'll back off, preferring not to meddle."

Now, you are being absurd, again.

The conversation, here, has to do with Government intervention, such as a poverty czar, welfare and other methods that essentially institutionalizes poverty, instead of ending it.

Mac
"I am interested in allowing those that land in poverty a way out."

This is what people say when they have no idea, or desire, to lend a hand to anybody. I work with alot of elderly (over 75 people) and only a tiny majority of them could do a job they are not trained for. (computers are out, for the most part). They suffer from arthritis, stenotic spines, osteoporosis, post-stroke syndromes, and failing memories. The few that can function well are volunteering their time and remaining energy to work for the people in our town who are less fortunate.

You sound like you're about 16. Tell me about this senior world, where 80 year olds are just dying for a chance to unload trucks and stand on their feet all day at the local supermarket.

JP2000
It appears you are trying to make a point.

What is it?


Retired Geek
Are the posts that I quoted from this thread an example of conservative compassion?


yes_______

no__________


Mac Moore
"you have a need to meddle or be in contol in someone else's life. In the end, it is all about you and your needs."

OK. The next time my loca charity calls looking for someone to take an elderly person without cab fare to their doctor appointment, I'll back off, preferring not to meddle.

JP20000 Promotes Poor To Stay Poor
JP20000 offers, "Mac Moore isn't interested in poverty issues, he just wants to be left alone."

Wrong. I am very interested in poverty issues. Unlike Liberals, I do not want to institutionalize poverty. I am interested in allowing those that land in poverty a way out. Liberals, on the other hand, look for ways of making them at home. How helpful is that?

Retired Geek
"Does liberal compassion involve stealing from me?"

No. I would personally be happy if you never had to give a single cent to anybody who needs it and if I could pass a law to make you the single exception I would do it in a heartbeat.

Doesn't your bible have anything to say about the poor? I must have a rogue copy.

KingsXrules
I'm not the one criticizing all the attempts to address the issue of poverty. I'm not the one who is denying that poverty is an issue.

Why should I come up with a plan? I've already admitted I don't have one that is better, and have stated why all the previous suggestions won't work, with the possible exception of John Shaft.

Mac - added thought
Of course, nobody thought a president would be dumb enough to invade Iraq, either, so who knows?

Leave Us Alone - Is Good For Americans
JP20000 response to Mac Moore's offer to the best way to deal with poverty is to Leave Us Alone, "It's OK, I didn't really expect anything of substance."

Actually, that was very subsantive. You just do not want to hear it. Your problem is that you have a need to meddle or be in contol in someone else's life. In the end, it is all about you and your needs. So, I can understand how this would be unacceptable to you.

Mac Moore
Every Dem except the most ardent diehards know that Hillary is going nowhere. there's no way she can win the nomination and everybody knows it. While she and Obama are fighting it out, however, they attract attention like a pair of scottie-dog magnets and McCain remains nearly invisible.

Liberals aren't going to challenge either one of them while this piece of political theater is going on - and why should they? Anybody with both brain-halves knows that there is no way a poverty czar will ever, could ever, happen.


Isn't It Interesting How...
... someone can spend a significant amount of time writing challenges to several other posters, challenging them to do something they DON'T WANT TO DO (come up with a plan for ending poverty), and never within all that verbiage put forth a plan his or her own self?

JP2000 on compassion
JP2000 wrote: "Is this what you mean by conservative compassion?"
-------------------------------------------------

Does liberal compassion involve stealing from me?

Yes_______[ ]

No________[ ]



Retired Geek
You are really smarter than that, aren't you?

I do very well with capitalism, thank you, I have no desire to change it. But I also have personal ethics, which I realize aren't a part of the capitalist theory and practice but can co-exist anyway.

Capitalism requires an underclass in order to survive, I'm not sure why you would want to get rid of it.

Poverty Czar Is Reasonable To Liberals
JP20000 offers as to why only Conservatives have rejected the idea of a poverty czar, "That's because conservatives can never think of anything to talk about unless they are bashing liberals, so they grasp onto anything. Liberals didn't talk about it because they no longer take Hillary seriously."

You need to get out more. In truth, I think you are just being absurd for an argument. But, I will pretend you are serious.

Not only is Hillary taken seriously, she is running for President of the USA. She and another guy are vieing for the Democrat ticket. She is taken so seriously, that she and her opponent will be holding a nationally televised debate, tonight.

She is so relevent to him and the Party that nearly every contrary utterance from her has been challenged by her opponent. However, the poverty czar thing was not challenged. My guess is that it was not contrary to his positions.

JP2000 simple question
Do you want to change America to a socialist state?

Yes______[ ]

No_______[ ]

Standhisground
I told you, I'm not going to get into the children's cafeteria for the usual TH food fight.

Compassion? I have read posters who suggest that the children of immigrants have their children picked up by their ankles and have their heads smashed against the nearest wall.

On a post above, a poster suggests that all people in need are drunks, inferiors, stupid, drug-addicted etc. How is that compassionate?

Doug and Medved wrote: "Poverty is a behavioral disorder"


B2slim describes all the poor as "drunks, brain fried druggies, the reckless, the lazy and obese citizens, the gamblers, the illiterate by choice, the PARASITES of our society."


Mac Moore isn'[t interested in poverty issues, he just wants to be left alone.

Is this what you mean by conservative compassion?

Thanks, I'll pass.




Mac
I said, (with a request to state a cogent policy for dealing with poverty "Tell the rest of us, we'll write to our congressmen."

Mac said

"Write this down: Leave Us Alone!"

Congratulations. This is certainly the quintessential conservative reponse to anything that is complex or difficult.

It's OK, I didn't really expect anything of substance.

JP20000 and stealing
I have asked you a question and you continually duck it.
-------------------------------------------------
Has the "war on poverty" reduced poverty or increased it?
-------------------------------------------------
I have not asked you this question in this simplified form - you seem to not understand anything more complex.

My wife and I worked hard all of our lives and we are quite comfortable in retirement.

America DOES NOT guarantee equal outcome for everyone - sad but true.

How do you suggest taking care of the poor without stealing from someone else?

One of the 10 commandments says "Thou shall not steal".

The great 'sin' to you might be not taking care of the poor - the great 'sin' to me is stealing what I have worked for my entire life.

Eliminate Hand-Outs - Give Hand-Ups
JP20000 asks, "What are the resources for people who can't work because they are a. children, b., wounded war vets, c., disabled, d. chronically ill, either mentally or physically, or e. over 80 years of age?"

How about letting them be a part of society? Instead of the Liberal idea of putting these people on-the-shelf or out of sight in some home, they could be relevent.

We have so many jobs in the USA that, according to the census bureau, we net 1,000,000 legal and 500,000 illegal aliens landing on our shores every year without puting a dent in the employment numbers.

We don't need them. We have plenty of potential employees that Liberal Welfare policies have kept out of the system. They have been institutionalized as unemployable, poor or whatever.

Most employers are small businesses that can barely make ends meeet. However, they have opportunities, in nearly every neighborhood, but can not afford to overcome many of the Union lobbied, special interest regulations put in by Liberal lackeys in Government. How about making it easier for a grocer to hire the challenged? Drop minimum wage. Drop special handicap requirements that put job offers out of reach for most employers. Drop oppressive liability coverage with punitive awards -- drop-of-the-hat legal suits eliminate a lot of jobs that never get offered.

How about opening all insurance and all health related businesses to competition, without protected territories of monopolies? How about eliminating redundant regulatory hurdles that make new medicines so expensive, to the point of narrowing break-throughs only to popular remedies?

In the end people respond more positively to hand-ups than hand-outs. Let's get out of the hand-out business. Let's get the Government back to just protecting our safety and stop experimenting with our lives. Eliminate Welfare.

Mac Moore
Was there an outcry? The only group that has challenged such a thought is Conservatives.

That's because conservatives can never think of anything to talk about unless they are bashing liberals, so they grasp onto anything. Liberals didn't talk about it because they no longer take Hillary seriously.

Expected Results?
Let's see now,

Jimmy Carter established the Dept of Educ in 1979 which spends $70 Billion/year and just a few weeks ago we saw the report that Detroit is graduating 24% of it's students.

Maybe Hillary's new dept could do as good.

Freedom Over Free Things
JP20000 pleads as to what to do about the poor, "Tell the rest of us, we'll write our congressmen."

Write this down: Leave Us Alone!

Liberals Think Poverty Czar Reasonable
JP20000 offers, "A Democratic candidate, who is losing by the way, proposes a "department of poverty" and you call that an "institutionalization of poverty that...proves that..liberals think a poverty czar is reasinable?""

Yes. My guess is that you even think it is an option. Liberals love this stuff.

Was there an outcry? The only group that has challenged such a thought is Conservatives.



JP20000 Lost In Hyperbole
JP20000 offers, "That's like my saying that all conservatives want to see a gun czar, a bible czar, or a homo-czar."

No. That has never been promoted. The Constitution covers those elements. We are happy with that.

JP2000
You said you wouldn't judge me? To look at most of your previous posts in the last few days, that would make me one of the few conservatives you HAVEN'T judged! Your posts are filled with judgments that conservatives are pretty much lacking in compassion. Apparently your idea of someone who's "angry and bitter" is someone who doesn't agree with your and liberalism in general's standard of compassion (like DavidM). You seem to be one of these liberals who has come onto TownHall after years of getting all your information and worldview from the MSM - which treats conservatives as if they don't even exist - and suddenly made the unsettling discovery that there's a big world of people in this country that the liberal media has kept the country in the dark about all these years who dare to have a totally different worldview than the liberal media. You seem like one of those who is in the same insular bubble occupied by Pauline Kael when she wondered how Nixon could possibly have won the 1972 presidential election when she personally didn't know anyone who voted for him. A little advice: if you're someone who gets his feelings hurt easily because others disagree with you, even vehemently, then you've come to the wrong place, brother. To paraphrase Harry Truman: if you can't stand the heat you feel on this site, then get out of TownHall's kitchen.

Liberals:Keeping The Poor In Their Place
DeMolay offers, "The liberal philosophy seems to be to punish the productive and reward the lazy."

Interesting, huh?

I doubt that is how they run their households: the under-acheiving kid gets free time to play with friends, while the over-acheiving kid is forced to do house-work with mom and dad.

Of course not.

Those rules are only meant for others not them. Those rules are meant to punish over-acheivers that they are jealous of; while keeping the under-acheivers out of their neighborhoods. Liberals can be so corrupitive. Luckily Conservatives are here to mitigate the damage.

Snafu and Arby
I'm sure both of you have a great plan.

Tell the rest of us, we'll write our congressmen.

Snafu
"There are ample resources available for anyone who is both (a) poor and (b) willing to work to get out of poverty.'

Well then,what are they? What are the resources for people who can't work because they are a. children, b., wounded war vets, c., disabled, d. chronically ill, either mentally or physically, or e. over 80 years of age?

You guys are just great at throwing out bumper slogans and platitudes - what are your suggestions for options?

Numbers, please, not platitudes.

Arby
"The last thing that poverty, as an entity, needs is to have the government trying to eliminate it. "

Well, then, Arby, you must have the alternative solution. Let's hear it.

Mac
That's like my saying that all conservatives want to see a gun czar, a bible czar, or a homo-czar.

Mac
"However, elitist Liberals have institutionalized poverty to the point that they think a poverty czar is a reasonable position"

C'mon, really think about what you are saying, OK?

A Democratic candidate, who is losing by the way, proposes a "department of poverty" and you call that an "institutionalization of poverty that...proves that..liberals think a poverty czar is reasinable?"

One talking point, by a candidate who is sinking, is not a reflection of every liberal view in America.

Think clearly!

What's next?
A "Department of Poverty"? When can we expect to see a "Department of Feel Good" or a "Department of 'That's not Fair"? All a Department of Poverty will accomplish, other than spending untold trillions of dollars, is to permanently shackle future generations to...poverty.

If it is not in the US Constitution, the federal government has no business worming its way into the crisis du jour. There are ample resources available for anyone who is both (a) poor and (b) willing to work to get out of poverty.

Better idea: Department of Let's Have Another Tea Party!


If Obama wins
I think I'll just quit working and ride that liberal gravy train; while it lasts.

As it is (with the Bush tax cuts) after I add up all the ways I'm paying taxes now it comes up to almost 75% of my income, and Obama thinks I'm being selfish to want to keep that much! The incentive for trying to be productive will completely vanish under that man.

The liberal philosophy seems to be to punish the productive and reward the lazy. Well, when in Rome...

Arby Gets It Right
Arby offers, "The last thing that poverty, as an entity, needs is to have the government trying to eliminate it. Let's see -- exactly how many other major social conditions has the government succeeded in influencing?"

Exactly.

Ending poverty would be like ending sadness. The only way to end one extreme is to end the opposite extreme. Creating a poverty czar is as silly as creating a sadness czar, or a pain czar, or ridicule czar or whatever.

Life is a transition of many ups and downs. In freedom, there will always be extremes. The Governments only role should be in keeping us safe as we negotiate the transitions. Not regulating them.

JP20000 Lost In Elitist Thinking
JP200000 offers, "Aw, liberals have just ruined America and your life for you, haven't they? Poor baby."

No, they have not ruined it -- Conservatives won't let that happen.

However, elitist Liberals have institutionalized poverty to the point that they think a poverty czar is a reasonable position. Now, the institution of poverty will have an official elitist corps to insure its permanence. Excellent! What next? Socialized healthcare? Another method of creating beggars of citizens.

Soon, there will be a healthcare czar that dictates to the public how to live, eat, work and mate. Since Socialized healthcare is society's burden, records of everyone will need to be monitored to discipline those that demonstrate higher burdens to society. Freedom for everyone, as with the poor, today, will be slowly eliminated, for the good of all -- or at least, for the good of the elitist Liberals in charge.

Liberals have nearly created a caste system in the USA, already, whereby poor are kept poor, forever. Nice. Ending Welfare will be a big step in breaking that caste. Conservatives are working on it --- we look out for even you.

Mac Moore at 4:32
Your single post makes more sense to me than the huge thread of others here that attempt to argue the benefit of government proposals to eliminate poverty. This country has literally thrown more than $10 trillion into eliminating poverty and -- what a surprise -- seems to have failed.

In the USA, poverty is a sociological and economic condition that one may be born into, but it certainly need not be a lifelong condition. Everyday, people work themselves out of poverty, as you point out. The word here is "work."

People who expect to have the elimination of poverty handed to them without their working for it, without elbow grease, without their own personal dedication to the improvement of their own conditions will manage, one way or another, to live their lives in poverty. People who expect to control their own destinies through little more than hard work and long hours and applying themselves every day to their overriding goal -- those people will succeed.

The last thing that poverty, as an entity, needs is to have the government trying to eliminate it. Let's see -- exactly how many other major social conditions has the government succeeded in influencing?


JP-likewise
JP,

Take Care!


She Will Not
Its been the feminist welfare state that has created a permanent underclass in America. It even replicates itself every 18-20 years or so.

More of the same will just destroy more families and keep people lazy, immoral and poor.

John - if you get back
Thanks for the exchange. You posed some really good ideas, which sound like a grass roots approach to a problem that burdens all of us.

Thanks for responding.

Standshisground
Why are you so angry and bitter? (Obama must be right!) I'll bet in real life you are a nice guy (or woman) who is liked by your neighbors and family, at least that's what I would put my money on if I were the betting type.

If you want me to respond to your entire rant of personal insults, you'll be disappointed. It's much more fun to have honest debates with people like Bulldog and John Shaft, and much more productive. I'm sorry that you are so weighted down with what sounds to me like unabashed rage, but I don't want to play.

I didn't insult you, I didn't call you names, I didn't attack you; anything I said about Nordstrom (where I haven't shopped in several years) seems pretty pale after reading your post.

I'm also not getting into a compassion-contest with you; I don't know you personally and wouldn't judge you except by what you say about yourself.

It's true that I get angry when people write that the impoverished are nothing but greedy low-lifes who don't deserve compassion, (B2slim) but I don't think you said that, did you?






JP2000
JP,
I agree with you on this point:It is tough for a lot of local gov'ts to make it without the Federal Gov't. We have created a co-dependent monster, and this was not intended(i think, since I was not alive in the 1700's)by the founding fathers.
So what is the solution? I don't have all the answers, but federal gov't should not be the 1st choice. Start a focus group with people like YOU and folks on this blog to come up with solutions; along with Churches, Biz owners, Non-profits, etc.
It was good chatting with you here, I have to run to a workshop. It was good speaking with you JP, see ya around!

JP2000
I'd say your post of 4:12 pm is a perfect example of projection: assuming to be true of someone else what is already true about yourself. Regarding spending Saturdays at Nordstrom's, I have little doubt that the vast majority of its clientele votes Democratic, not Republican. Want to find conservative shoppers? Try going to your local WalMart; oh, but I forget, don't I, you effete liberals wouldn't sully yourselves to shop at such a place, would you? (Actually, some of you do, and then lie about it). As far as not being able to not buy another car to help the poor: why don't you tell that to Al Gore and John Edwards and Teddy Kennedy and Hillary Clinton and other limousine liberals who are living in eclectic splendor far beyond what their actual needs are? Or is it only Democrats/liberals who are allowed to have what goes beyond their actual basic needs? You, sir or ma'am, frankly sound like a very embittered person to me. Maybe you're someone who denounces the wealth of others because YOU don't have as much of it as you want yourself, and so therefore you mask your sense of insecurity or inadequacy by trashing others. I frankly don't think you'd recognize "compassion" if you tripped over it; your idea of compassion is to unthinkingly give away OTHER PEOPLE's money for any perceived need no matter what the genesis of that need or the wisdom of supplying it. I'll pose the same issue to you I did previously; why don't you tell us all what percentage of your OWN income you claim on your tax forms for charitable contributions? Although come to think of it, I'm probably asking a foolish question: I don't think you're the kind of person who would answer honestly anyway.

John Shaft
I'm not arguing that the role of the federal government should be questioned, and I didn't mean to imply that you personally don't care about the poor - as I told Bulldog, I was probably thinking about other posts on this thread if I said that.

But what is your suggestion? There isn't enough money in local government or in private charities to address this problem - please read my post to Bulldog about what we are experiencing in our own community right now.

Much of local govt money comes from the federal government, and I'm not sure many people in my geographical area can handle more local taxes, even if it meant paying less federal taxes.

How do you (or anyone reading this) propose to address the problems of health and poverty (assuming you care, which is a different argument) in specific, numerical terms? It's not enough to say that people need to live like you do, or live with your approval - who is going to make those decisions, and how are they going to be implemented - and if you think they can be, who is going to pay for the bureaucracy to put them into effect?

For medved to write off poverty as a "behavioral disorder" is a cheap, cynica, cheesy way to avoid any kind of meaningful debate about the problem.


Bulldog -Social Security
Bulldog,
I hear you on the SS. The missed opportunity cost of YOUR money could have been used elsewhere. SSI sounded good when it started, right? You could have had more money made in a fixed annuity than what is given out on SSI. It is great you keep a positive outlook on life!

Mac Moore
Aw, liberals have just ruined America and your life for you, haven't they? Poor baby.

Is the reason for the conservative obsession with liberals just a primary love of victimhood?

Bulldog
I try not to generalize about conservatives or liberals - when I used the word "selfish" I was really thinking about some of the posts on this thread, not about conservatives in general.

I understand what you mean about Social Security, but I think human behavior is what it is and without it we would be picking up much bigger costs now for the people who couldn't, or didn't save up for the future. Not everybody makes the decisions you and I might make.

I had to do some researh on my family history for a writing project once and instead I researched the town they grew up in which was at that time a fairly prosperous lumber town with 5 sawmills. There was no social security, no social benefits of any kind. There was story after story of men (mostly) who were cut to pieces in sawmill accidents and left entire families to make it on their own - my own grandfater died of cancer at the age of 38, leaving a wife and three children, one of them terminally ill also.

It's true that neighbors helped neighbors to a greater degree then - particularly when they could identify with them. (The only Chinese person in town committed suicide on New Year's eve because of loneliness). But there are also problems with having to depend on the approval and generosity of others. And, if you fall out of favor, you're done for.

If you're wondering, my grandmother took in sewing and my uncle and father had part-time jobs, and they made it. I think the deparation of those days left my Uncle, particularly, a wounded and hostile man. But, that's life!

JP2000
You see JP, your faulty assumption is that IF we don't use the FEDERAL Gov't to solve problems, then we are against helping the poor..that is NOT TRUE! The difference between you and me JP; is HOW we solve the problem(s). I agree with you JP, that there are problems with poverty, mental health, gay marriage, abortion, racism, health care, etc but the Federal Gov't should NOT be the 1st option on the table.
We are a great country JP because of people like you and I(and other Americans), not the Federal Government.

Nonsense!
I agree, Mr. Medved, this is just nonsense.

In a free world, poverty and wealth will exist. I have enjoyed both.

Normally, poverty is being created and eliminated, every day, one person at a time. It is a transition of life.

Well, at least, until the Liberals decided to institutionalize poverty, by rewarding people to be poor. Now, the transition is slower and, to a whole class of citizenry, it has stagnated into an institutinalized sewer. I have met many people that have been on the Government dole all of their lives and see no need to change that.

Of course, that makes a Liberal proud. They have a whole class of beggars that need them.

JP
The "correct" answer to your question to Shaft is that under the Constitution, any powers not specfically delegated to the Federal Government are reserved to the States...but I'll let Shaft speak for himself.

JP2000
I see you're points, and I suppose it's too much to ask for a middle ground between laissez-faire and nanny state.

I don't think, however, that "selfishness" describes the conservative mindset ("red" states tend to stack up pretty well when it comes to chartiable giving). It's more an attitude of "hey, Uncle Sam, you want the job of taking care of everybody, fine, you've got my tax $$, so go to it and leave me alone."

Kind of off the subject, but I wish Uncle Sam had left ME alone during the 30+ years I've been putting into Social Security...I could have put the same amount of money into an IRA or even a passbook account and I might even have had a shot at retiring someday.

Shaft
I'm waiting for your answer - since the constitution does not state that life begins at conception or that gay people shouldn't marry, does that mean you feel abortion and same-sex marriage is OK?

I hope you are consistent.

Shaft
From a perfectly selfish point of view, which seems to be the prevailing philosophy among conservatives, I would say that addressing concerns like poverty and particularly, mental illness benefits the society at large, even if it means you can't buy another car.

The mentally ill, if left on the streets, will cost you alot more than you probably know in terms of crime, for example. So will poverty unless we do more than throw cheap advice at the poor. This does not necessarily mean money, but what this conversation has become is a discussion about whether or not the poor and disabled are worthy of our precious consideration - whether it is more important to spend next Saturday at Nordstrom or improve the community.

John Shaft
The constitution probably does not require Americans to care about mental illness and human suffering. So what? Are you saying that anything that isn't covered in the constitution we should be free to do or not do?

Jersey 48 said
"No conservative views the wounded veteran as a "parasite"; he or she is owed the best possible care at all of our expense because he or she served for all of us."

Yes, as long as that veteran has some photo-op ,dramatic, approved tragedy.

Many, many vets suffer from mental disorders, drug addiction, domestic violence, homelessness and the suicide rate among Iraqi soldiers and veterans is the highest in American history.

I live very close to a major army base and have spent time there - there is indeed both poverty and post-war syndromes there that I never see outsiders caring about.

JP2000
You still did not answer the question. I NEVER talked about those other issues. Where does it state in the US constitution that the FEDERAL Gov't is responsible for this expense for poverty and mental health? Please advise.

Cleverness
"Poverty and bankruptcy are very different things. Most people who live in poverty don't qualify for credit, and thus don't go bankrupt"

That's just not true, you made that up. As I said, prior to the current mortgage crises 2/3 of bankruptcies were the result of people who had plenty of credit, had homes, all the things you do, who found themselves unable to pay for a criticle disaster.

I know some people personally (more than one family, actually) who's son was rendered paraplegic as the result of an auto accident. The first two week's bill from the hospital was over a million dollars, and this was almost 15 years ago.


This information isn't open to speculation or your personal wishes - the facts are available in many places.

For that matter, Shaft,
Where does the constitution say that life begins at conception?

Section and article, please.

John Shaft
How is this relevant? Where does the constitution say it should be illegal to get an abortion, have a physician-assisted death, or forbid same-sex marriages, for that matter?

How do you feel about those issues? Maybe you can provide the "section and aritcle in the constitution" to back those feelings up.

JP2000
JP,
When is the Federal Gov't responsible for helping people with various mental or physical disorders? Provide the Section and Article in the US Constitution where this is stated.


CalVRWC
You're right, Hillary's plan IS to try to steal money from those who earn their living - just like she's plotting to steal the Democratic Party's presidential nomination!

Bulldog part 2
As for private charities, that's not realistic either - in my community, there is a pretty clear divide among very well-to-do, middle, and very poor, who mostly live in the outlying rural areas. We have a large charity that traditionally provides emergency food, shelter, rides to the hospital, clothing and furniture for people who, say, have experienced a fire or some other disaster. However, with the recent economic problems this charity is out of everything and can't keep up with all the needs created by people who have lost their jobs (and weren't making enough to have medical insurance or saving accounts to begin with). Of course, there is a huge campaign going on to raise money by donations and grants, but it is still unlikely to be enough.

In many cases, especially concerning health, we end up paying more by letting everything reach the disaster stage. It is much more expensive to treat people who wait until they are dying or in stage 4 cancer, for example, than to provide preventive care. It is much cheaper to make home care available than to put people into government institutions.

The question is also this: who should decide who is really deserving of help, and how much help they should get? As a society, should we make that help everybody's responsibility or just the rich or the religious who feel certain moral obligations? And for the people who have saved as much as they can, but suffer catastrophic illness or disaster, should they be ignored?

Bulldog part 1 0f 2
You said "poverty will never be eliminated, but as far as helping people in need, it should really come down to local governments and private charities."

You are a rational person. And, of course, I know there are alot of people who get welfare, SSI, medicare, and social security that don't need it or who are irresponsible.

But, I also think the fact is that private charities and local governments don't have the money - local governments would still have to raise the taxes that many people abhor.


Their solution
Hillary's mandate to her Poverty Czar would not be to change the behavior of the poor to make them more self-sufficient, but how to steal money from those who earn their living and give it to the poor ... aka redistribution of wealth.

Re-defeat communism!

JP2000, regarding DavidM
Let's suppose, according to you, that DavidM had made better decisions to your way of thinking and did have more money because of it. Even just taking your words at face value, what therefore about that automatically obligates him to give his money away "to help others"? If DavidM or anyone else earns their own way, they have a right to be as charitable as they want or not charitable at all WITH THEIR OWN MONEY. Your posts show an almost universal liberal characteristic: you trust the government much more than the individual, and the manifest failure of government-mandated "compassion" just simply doesn't exist as far as you're concerned, like the dysfunctions and failures that actually existed in the Oceania of Orwell's 1984 really didn't exist simply because Big Brother SAID they didn't exist. People like you think that what people earn by the sweat of their own labor really should belong to the government and that we should be grateful that government allows us to keep ANY of the fruits of our labor. By the way, I'd love to see from your own tax returns what percentage of your OWN income you've been claiming for charitable contributions the last several years as proof of your own "compassion". If you're the typical liberal, I would expect it would be a very low to non-existent percentage. Remember what we found out about Al Gore's own charitable giving as evidenced from his own tax returns several years ago? Also, for people who preach about what the sacrifices all the REST of us should be making for the poor and our planet, people like Al Gore and John Edwards and the Hollywood liberal elite sure seem to manage to live very high on the hog themselves, don't they? Does it somehow make you feel virtuous to call into question the compassion of conservatives?

JP2000 - dum bulb
Actually that our family helped our relatives is the point you are missing. The number of people in the situations you describe is TINY, easily too small for the Feds to address. Unless you are a big-government worshipping partisan such as yourself.

"Why would I reference a TH columnist for honest and unbiased information?"

Thanks for proving you can't address the FACTS Dr Sowell laid out in his article. Those facts aren't open to debate, but the interpretation of them might be). I guess your conclusion is that the MSM is unbiased and honest? You are an intellectual lightweight and flaming partisan to boot if you believe that.

http://www.mediaresearch.org/biasbasics/biasbasics3.asp

Those of you unafraid of facts should click the link.


DavidM - a thought
Maybe if you had made better decisions in your life you would have more money for helping others - and more compassion.

If your car...
...doesn't run, adding more steering wheels won't help.

Medical Causes of Poverty
JP 2000-
No conservative views the wounded veteran as a "parasite"; he or she is owed the best possible care at all of our expense because he or she served for all of us. When Congress appropriates money for veterans' care, it is excercising the constitutionally-granted power to raise and support an army.
The Alzheimer's patient, brain-injured child, retarded person, etc. deserve our sympathy, our charity and, in some cases where there is no other choice, the state as guardian. But the Federal government was never granted authority to serve in that role. Indeed, legislation to establish Federal mental hospitals was defeated in the 1800's for exactly the reason that it is beyond the delegated powers of the Congress. The Constitution has not changed since then in any way relevant to this discussion.
And BTW, my wife and I have private long-term-care insurance. If we develop Alzheimers, we will not call on your tax dollars. Why don't you do the same?

Hi JP
Well, I can't speak for the other posters, but it's not like I get up every morning with my goal being to see how many liberals I can insult today...it's just they leave themselves so wide open...kind of like Montana to Rice when the other team has 10 men up on the line

(I would have said Brady to Moss, but I still haven't gotten over the Patriots blowing the Super Bowl).

Seriously, DavidM has a good point... poverty will never be eliminated, but as far as helping people in need, it should really come down to local governments and private charities. The creation of a Cabinet-level federal department does not seem like a solution.

PS
I trust your Alzheimer's relatives had families to care for them and didn't have to go into expensive, residential care that they couldn't afford - otherwise, you would have just tossed them out, right?

You sound like a great guy.

JP2000
Poverty and bankruptcy are very different things. Most people who live in poverty don't qualify for credit, and thus don't go bankrupt. Bankruptcy usually affects those who have some means in order to qualify for credit, but then either get in over theirs heads, or have some catastrophic situation that renders them unable to pay their creditors.

Is there any evidence that bankruptcy leads to poverty? For the people I know who have gone bankrupt, it is chance for a fresh start. Many of the wealthy people I know have had to declare bankruptcy at some point, since entrepreneurship is risky and sometimes takes more than one try.

The fact is that most of those who live below the poverty line own a color TV, VCR, and microwave. Those were all luxuries only the rich had when I was a kid. Very few have to miss meals or live on the street. And, as I posted earlier, for most people poverty is a short-term condition (in the US).

DavidM
Why would I reference a TH columnist for honest and unbiased information? I know cons love to talk about how much smarter than liberals they are, but nobody is that dumb.

I'm sure you have a great plan for dealing with poverty in America, including disabled vets, brain damaged victims of injuries or congenital tragedies, etc. You are certainly free to feel that their plight is not your problem (apparently you are not one of the "Christian" conservatives) but does that mean that a plan isn't needed, that anyone who can't afford to eat for any reason should just be ignored.

Actually, you already said that.

Sorry, you don't need to come up with a plan -- you already have one. But, here's another question: who should pay for burials? Do your sentiments also call for just letting people die in their homes or on the street, and remain uncollected? Should we just let our dogs dispose of them?

Certainly, you have thought this through.

JP2000
Now that we've gotten our misunderstandings between us from Dennis Prager's thread yesterday behind us, we can start afresh.

First of all, no conservatives, or at least very few, are advocating abandoning those like those you cite in your 12:36 post: people who genuinely cannot provide for or take care of themselves. It's those who are able-bodied whose own personal irresponsible lifestyles impoverish them that we conservatives bristle about government enabling and perpetuating that lifestyle. I'm sure most conservatives will echo my sentiment that the vast majority of poverty I've seen from those I've met or known personally was not the result of economic factors but behavioural ones. As George Will has observed, among those who do three simple things - graduate high school, work, and avoid trouble with the law - poverty is minimal. As several posters to this thread have already noted, if government programs can eliminate poverty, why does it persist in this nation after an expenditure of a few TRILLION dollars in social welfare programs in the last 40 years?

As a matter of fact, I would argue that in fact the U.S. pretty much already HAS eliminated poverty. I'm sure you've seen articles or commentaries noting what percentage of Americans even in the lowest 20% of the income strata have cars, cell phones, cable TV, and other things that are not strictly speaking NECESSITIES for pure survival; it's an overwhelming percentage. The simple fact, practically no Americans are living in the kind of poverty that you see in the Third World - and the ones that are pretty much are overwhelmingly represented by illegal aliens, substance abusers, those with criminal records, etc. So this is another example where conservatives have a fundamental disagreement with liberals because we approach the issue from two mutually exclusive and irreconcilable worldviews.

JP2000
Why is that the federal government's job? Why could not the states handle it?

Why don't you tell me why the government creates problems like the costs of medical care, then ingrates like yourself blame the system and the taxpayers?

And your Alzheimer's item is bogus. I have had 3 relatives die due to complications from it and the medicines are not that expensive.

Here is a good article which exposes the 'poor' (which for some reason is defined as low income):
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/11/21/ income_confusion?page=full&comments=true

Poverty is easily overcome by those who work for it. In any event its not my job to pay their way.

Hi, Bulldog
"Good question, maybe because they're easy targets, or they're so cute when they fly into a rage"

I think it has a more depressing cause, which is that conservatives are only interested in lifting themselves up by obsessive, fixated liberal-bashing, it makes them feel better...unfornately, it's not very productive which may be why they're in the fix they are in.

Here's some facts about poverty (I know that nobdy is actually interested in facts, but before I leave for the grown-up blogs I
m going to post them anyway:

Until the current housing crisis, 68% of people who declared bankruptcy did so because of catastrophic illnesses that drove them into poverty. Flu and psneumonia among the elderly has increased 130%.

How are these people making bad decisions that make conservatives feel so inconvenienced?


JP2000
Good question, maybe because they're easy targets, or they're so cute when they fly into a rage...

I remember when some La Raza kid from Berkley called in to berate one of our well-known talk radio hosts. By the end of the conversation, he was literally CRYING, and screaming into the phone "You're a BAD MAN!!"

So yeah, I guess it's the entertainment value.

Another question
I'm sure that everyone who is just interested in solving the issue of poverty will be happy to post their plan on this website.

I'm talking about an actual plan, not a piece of Dear Abby advice to "make better decisions". Not a screed claiming that Democrats have ruined your life, not a personal anecdote about how Jesus rescued you, or any other singular experience.

Facts and figures, anyone? Or just moralizing and Dem-bashing?

More to the point
Why do conservatives talk about liberals more than about anything else? This is not about poverty, it's about bashing Democrats.

B2Slim
"the entire Obama-Hillary campaign is one big pity party for the PARASITES OF OUR SOCIETY."

Here's some more examples that you can add to your list of parasites:

Children born with congenital diseases that bankrupt the parents who chose not to abort them or turn them over to the state

Elderly people who have diseases like Alzheimers, which despite years of saving for retirement still requires more than they ever made intheir lives

People with Schozophrenia, Brain injuries, etc. that are unable to provide for themselves and have no family networks

Returning vets without arms, legs, or whose faces have been burned off in Bush's war

The seriously mentally retarded, who will never be able to support themselves

Since you're so full of lists, Slim, why don't you have the courage to include everybody?


Biblical viewpoint
For those of us who believe the Bible, it makes clear that we can't eliminate poverty:

"There will always be poor people in the land." Deut 15:11.

"The poor you will always have with you." Matt 26:11, Mark 14:7.

"You will always have the poor with you." John 12:8.

Of course, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to help the poor. Indeed, Deut 15:11 concludes: "Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land."

Wasnt this the Great Society
Here's a quote from President Johnson's speech at the garden

"It can be a society of success without squalor, beauty without barrenness, works of genius without the wretchedness of poverty. "

So, um we already spent trillions of dollars trying to eliminate poverty. It didn't work. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The Great Society destroyed the black family, and by extension, black society in America. One can only recoil in horror at what damage a Secretary of Poverty could do.

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch....?
Something like "How to become famous" :
(1) Become a doctor
(2) Discover a cure for something

Those guys would have had a field day with Hillary's proposal

B2slim
As Rob pointed out, your math is in error. Even if Sens. Obama and Clinton are spending $500 million each on the Presidential campaign -- total $1 billion -- this would allow payment of only about $26 to each of the 37 million poor families that you say exist.

I also think that your figure for the number of poor families is wrong. The latest data the I've seen, from 2006 (http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf) shows the following:

36.5 million people in poverty;

7.7 million poor families
4.1 million of these poor families were headed by a female

The poverty rate for female-headed families was 28.3%

The poverty rate for married-couple families was 4.9%

This demonstrates the vital importance of the traditional, two-parent family.

Rob
Great post.

Which party has been running Michigan for the last umpteen years?

Why is Detroit such a hole if the liberal policies by which it is run are supposed to be so darn great?

Why have the people there never figured it out?

Liberals just don't learn
Hillary's proposal just goes to show how liberals just really don't get it. Actually, to me, Hillary's poverty czar proposal just goes to show what I and other posters, such as RCB, to Dennis Prager's thread yesterday, about what caused him to stop being a liberal, were saying in response to Prager's commentary: that liberals nowadays are utterly unable to distinguish anymore between good and evil, between right and wrong. As Medved has stated and as several posters to this thread, such as Doug and cleverness_of_me, have affirmed in their accounts of their own lives, much of the poverty in this country, in fact in my opinion the vast majority of it, is not economic in nature but behavioural. To eliminate much of the poverty in this country means many people would have to come face-to-face with their own destructive and/or unproductive behaviour, as Medved declared and as a few posters here admitted they had to do personally and were much the better for having done so. But for liberals, this would mean - GASP! - that they'd actually have to admit that some things are right and some things are - HORRORS - wrong! With liberal moral relativism today, they can't admit that. Ergo, they'll retreat to their standard default position: that poverty in this country is necessarily the result of unfair economic disparities that can only be remedied by taking even more from those who have, meaning those who work and lead responsible lives, and giving that swag to those who don't work and/or lead irresponsible lives. If anyone wonders what a Hillary Clinton presidency would mean as far as the tax burden that would be imposed on America under her administration, her poverty czar proposal should leave no doubts whatsoever.

Govt out of Way - Things Improve
Govt solve poverty? Let's get serious they cause most of it - especially the mindset.

a few more
Hey Hillary, you left out a couple positions to fill your 'dream' cabinet:
Secretary of Truth, dedicated to curing misstatements and misspeaking.
Secretary of Pandering, to promote any cause which might buy more votes.
Secretary of Interns, dedicated to employing better garment cleaning practices(a perfect fit for Bill).
Secretary of Intelligence, so everybody can be as smart as you.

Some have ears but do not listen, some have eyes but cannot see.

Fighting lunacy
"Anti-earthquake Secretary"; you hit the nail on the head!

In Canada there was a political party that proposed (satirically) to save energy by passing a law to lower the boiling point of water.

Government departments must survive
The first rule of any government department is to maintain its raison d'etre. As such, no "Department of Poverty" will wipe out poverty. And, as we have seen with the "Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change", agencies created to monitor problems will always exaggerate them.

These political laws are like the laws of physics; they cannot be undone.

Short-term poverty
The vast majority of the nation' poor do not stay that way for long. Upon graduating (or dropping out), people enter the workforce with entry-level jobs that do not pay well. They may have to work part-time, and have multiple jobs. But few people stay at that low level for a long period of time unless they have serious problems.

When I first started out in the music business, I ate a lot of Ramen Noodles and bologna sandwiches, and some months I had to do some fast-taking with regards to my rent. But within a couple years I managed to get with a good band on the casino circuit, making good money and with a meal rider (free meals!).

But I would not trade what I learned about life during the lean years for anything

The Veil CONTINUES to Drop
Shrillary Cankleton is trying to pick up The Liberal Loonie Edwards Voters in NC. From the looks of the video from PA, she will keep the brewers and distillers employed ALL BY HERSELF!

Not A Chance
As long as both parties insist we keep importing more poverty from south of the border it can never be "solved".



We the People of the United States of America have the right to have our borders and our laws respected and enforced.

Citizens of other countries illegally in our country have no right to demand anything from our government. They most certainly have the right to petition the governments of their home countries for change if they are unhappy with their home country. If they want to be Americans, we have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other nation, and it starts in their home country.

We need to insist on the equal protection, application and enforcement of the law or devolve into anarchy. Our Republic only functions if everyone follows the same rules. We should not change the laws to accomodate those breaking them.

If America annouces to the world "We can't stop you, so come on in" with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to We the People. Speak to your neighbors, speak to your coworkers, but please speak up to your Congressmen and Senators. It's O.K. for us to enforce our laws, no really, it is.

Someone please tell Sen. McCain.

the dims only solution
no matter what the problem the dims think that growing more govt and billing the public will resolve every problem. With both of the dims candidates knowing nothing about the private sctor they only can imagine one solution. With the thousands of govt programs and many more thousands of govt employees, had the missus clinton proposed shuffling some to other departments to combat a problem that might gain some appeal and traction. Better still deciding to eliminate govt programs and getting rid of govt ermployees would be a savings to the treasury. Our problem isn't there aren't enough govt programs, the problem is there are far too many and all fighting to get funds to justify their existence. Many of us believe govt bloat and waste is a far bigger problem to the growing debt and this is the artea that should be addressed to get the budget under control

Another power grabbing proposal
from the queen of liberal big gov't.

When colleges give degrees in managing poverty programs, you can rest assured no dem will ever do anything about ending poverty, puts too many of their core folks out of work.

Not one of these programs is constitutional if you read Madison on the subject, yet we waste trillions of dollars on them.

Why do we have to pay people to read to other peoples kids?
Why do we have to pay to feed other people's kids?
Could it be that these people are too damned lazy to do it and have been inculcated by liberals that this is somehow owed to them?

Poverty is indeed a choice in this country, a bad one re-enforced by liberals who are interested only in their socialistic agenda and who don't care who they destroy in order to achieve it.

It's disgusting to me to see people who have started businesses, provided good jobs for others and became rich to be vilified and over taxed by jealous democrats who never held a real job.

Just who did more to alleviate poverty?

Anyone who votes for a dem is insane.




Why stop at poverty?

Why not have an Anti-Crime Secretary, an anti-War Secretary and an anti-Earthquake Secretary?

Boutte
Poverty has always and will always be there. But it's curable in any given individual with a little modification in behavior. There are already government departments to deal with poverty: HUD, HHS, and Education for example.

You whine about "Defense" being a "Scam" and how we're fighting Israel's enemies (I guess you're trying to say that if we left them alone they would leave us alone, right?)

The war between Islamic Terrorists and the US didn't start on September 11, 2001. It started on November 4, 1979 in Teheran, Iran. They didn't just hate us for going in and thumping Saddam in the back of the head in '91. They didn't just hate us for pulling our support out of Afghanistan in the late '80s. They started expressing their hatred and calling us "The Great Satan" and changing "Death to America" during the Carter Administration and under the leadership of Ruholla Khomenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They hate us for our way of life and want to destroy us because we are the Great Satan to them. Talk won't help, disarmament won't help, isolationism won't help, and allowing them to destroy Israel won't help. Only our conversion or subjugation to Islam will stave off their desire for our destruction. Period.

Good schools
The poor could use some good schools, such as the ones we had forty years ago before the liberals started screwing them up.

They could also use some good advice, and liberal slogans like "Question Authority" turn the poor into bad employees.

Burocracy
When Republicans want to create a massive new government burocracy it's with the stated intent of trying to protect the nation from terrorism. It's been mildly effective. We haven't been attacked again, and, I guess, information sharing has improved. But protecting the nation is what the Government is supposed to do.

When Democrats want to create a massive new government burocracy it's with the stated intent of ending poverty, something that sounds great on its face and, as anyone with any awareness knows, is physically impossible. So, as with the Departments of Education, Health and Human Services, Energy, and Housing and Urban Development, billions (actually, probably trillions; I'd be shocked if DoP under Clinton wasn't funded better than DoD) of dollars will be spent with little or no appreciable improvement that couldn't be attributed to private industry or the economy in general.

All this is is an excuse to jack taxes up to record levels and provide more handouts to keep people reliant on the Government rather than their own initiative to survive.

All Slick Hilly's posturing about being a moderate or even slightly conservative to distinguish herself from Obama is going to crumble into tiny bits as this gets out.

Any bets on whether the DoP will have an Office of Health Care Coverage?

The Poor Will Always Be With Us
Clinton wants a POVERTY CZAR? This is nothing more than a MARXIST scam! The Democrats have kept American citizens, especially the blacks, in poverty for generations just for their vote.

BTW, Obama is also a Marx/Engels student who believes the (uneducated) citizens should be governed by the elites also.

Secretary of Poverty - not enough power
for a secretary of poverty to be effective, will need enough power to dictate behaviors to people who make bad decisions.

Poverty is achieved though a long string of bad decisions. Poverty is not magically imposed by some unseen oppressive social force.

Do the Dems have the guts needed to do what it will take to end poverty in the US? Will they have the guts to micro manage people who have a track record of driving their life into poverty?

Do we want a government agency with that kind of power?

Yet another layer of bureaucracy
In all my years of practice, I have only seen government programs spawn dependence and enhance/enable the impoverished life. Government programs have become big business for those who work in them, and the "poor" are the clients that keep it all going! What impacts poverty is a shift in the individual's value system and priorities.

People must choose industry and education over entertainment and leisure, delaying gratification over instant gratification (this is a BIG one), and having only as many children as can be afforded. Further, communities must become business friendly through lowered taxes and managed crime. Those are the ONLY ways to deal with poverty, and more gov't cannot produce this.

Creating yet more poor through incessant income pillaging to finance useless bureaucracies is not even a sane propsosition based upon what we know works and does not now.




Inverse Abyss
Poverty will never be defeated so long as it is understood as economic inequality. This is so because the following iron rule will always intervene: The more economically equal individuals become, the more meaningful their marginal economic differences will become.

To illustrate, Sweden is one of the most economically egalitarian societies in the world after tax; the wealth gaps between the richest and poorest Swede are far narrower than in most other nations. But for those Swedes who chose their parents well, the marginal economic differences provided by inherited or mutually shared property within families enables enormous material enhancements to their lifestyles. These enhancements may seem marginal when officially measured, but the economic inequalities they generate are enormous, and all the more so due to the narrow wealth gaps.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about whether Christianity requires poverty to be measured as economic inequality and fought on such terms. Given the iron rule described above (among many other things), it is obvious to me that the answer is no. In turn, this cuts off the wondrous leap of imagination from "neighbor" to "society" that social gospel teachers misapply to scripture. This would also require that poverty be measured in absolute terms and fought accordingly. Notably, America has already won a total victory over poverty so measured at home, and should therefore turn its attention abroad.

Medved is right
Liberalism is a disease! The phoney Left Candidates are no more able to solve the "poverty problem" because poverty is nothing more than the lower end of the bell curve and nothing more than basic statistics. What the Left Candidates are hoping is to bambozzle the ignorant into voting for this fantasy that there is a free lunch.
IOWs just another try to force Socialism on everyone and centralize power over everything like Chavez in Venezula aka steal from the producers to invest in non-producer votes.

Mr. Medved is correct
Poverty is a behavioral disorder in this country. In many other countries, if you're poor, you're poor, and you can do precious little about it. In America, at least for the time being, you don't have to stay poor. I know. I was poor until I changed my behavior. I quit drinking, quit using drugs, and got rid of my television. My health, energy, and productivity improved to levels I never thought possible. I am no longer poor. And I did it without the help of some phony federal beauracrat. I'm sure that I'd have even more than I do now if the government followed the Constitution. It would be about 5% its current size, and my take-home pay would be substantially higher.

The leader is always at fault
I would rather have a Secretary of Poverty than a Counterfeit Cowboy "leading" our country.

Candidates for the PARASITES
the entire Obama-Hillary campaign is one big pity party for the PARASITES OF OUR SOCIETY.

the drunks
the brain fried druggies
the illiterate by choice
the reckless
the criminals and their extended families
the illegals
the lazy, the junk food junkies
the drug dealers
the gamblers
the addicts

over 80% of the "POOR" are poor by choice
and the entire campaign is pounding the table
to create MORE PARASITES

It is all about moving MORE FOLKS from WORK
to Welfare

HILLARY-OBAMA write the checks::
Hillary and Obama are spending over 1/2 billion or more to enjoy the fame of hanging out in the Oval Office for a few years:

THEY could EACH write a 1 million dollar check
to each of those 37 million poor families they keep complaining about and it would NOT put a dent in their campaign funds and it would solve every problem for all of their
poor and they would be guaranteed 37 million more votes.

Every day they hold another pity party for the drunks, brain fried druggies, the reckless, the lazy and obese citizens, the gamblers, the illiterate by choice, the PARASITES of our society.

they would still have 2/3 of a billion left to run their campaigns, and it would not cost them a personal dime.

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