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Wednesday, November 28, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gloom-and-Doomers Wrong on U.S. "Moral Collapse"
by Michael Medved
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The United States has displayed a remarkable and long-standing tendency not only to tolerate, but to honor and reward, those who decry the nation’s morality and predict its imminent and inevitable doom.

Consider Pat Buchanan’s new bestseller, “Day of Reckoning: How Hubris, Ideology and Greed are Tearing America Apart.” This magnum opus follows his similarly cheerful (and successful) releases, “State of Emergency” and “The Death of the West.” In the opening pages of the most recent book, “Pitchfork Pat” dramatically declaims:

“Truly, America faces an existential crisis… It is the belief of the author and the premise of this book that America is indeed coming apart, decomposing, and that the likelihood of her survival as one nation through mid-century is improbable- and impossible if America continues on her current course. For we are on a path to national suicide.”

Buchanan hardly stands alone in announcing the upcoming destruction or dissolution of the republic. John F. MacArthur, the influential California pastor, President of The Master’s College, and author of some fifty books on the Bible and contemporary life, recently declared: “There comes a point in God’s dealing with men and nations, groups of people, when He abandons them….Sin is so rampant in our country, it is so widespread, it is so tolerated by people in leadership and even people in the church, it is so widely tolerated it is pandemic: it is endemic; that is, it is in the very fabric of our life that I believe God has just taken away the restraining grace that might preserve our nation, and has let our nation run to its own doom.”

Similarly, the late Jerry Falwell described the September 11th terrorist attacks as a tragic but inevitable, divinely ordained response to rampant immorality and Godlessness on the national scene. “God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve,” he said during a hugely controversial television broadcast (for which he subsequently apologized). He singled out immoral ideas and behaviors spiraling out of control across the country, accusing those who insisted on “throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked.” Three days later, trying to explain his comments to John F. Harris of the Washington Post, Reverend Falwell more modestly observed: “When a nation deserts God and expels God from the culture… the result is not good.” On many other occasions, the affable preacher from Lynchburg, Virginia, drew bemused chuckles with the observation: “If God doesn’t wipe out San Francisco some time soon, He’s going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.” His words conjure up a compelling vision of the Environmental Protection Agency someday striving mightily to clear the sulphur, brimstone and salt pillars from the Golden Gate.

And speaking of San Francisco, Michael Savage (nee, Michael Weiner), the perpetually enraged talk radio Jeremiah of Baghdad by the Bay, joins the Loonie Left in seeing the impending onset of Naziism. “I am more and more convinced that we have a one-party oligarchy ruling our nation,” he warned in “The Savage Nation,” his 2002 national bestseller. “In short, the ‘Republicrats’ and 'Demicans’ have sacked our Constitution, our culture, our religions, and embarrassed the nation…Again, the last years of the Weimar Republic of pre-Nazi Germany come to mind – where decadence completely permeated a free society.”

While activists and academics on the political left have always played the lead role in passionately promoting the many pernicious lies about America’s allegedly guilty past, it's mostly commentators on the cultural right who enthusiastically embrace the lies about the nation’s guilty present and doomed future. Looking down on previous generations and condemning our Founding Fathers as Indian-slaughtering, slave-owning, Euro-centrist, money-grubbing elitists can bring obvious psychic rewards to those who endorse such caricatures. If our ancestors deserve more condemnation than reverence, we face little obligation to live up to their ideals or examples and can feel free to make our rules, shape our own values, with an unshakable sense of greater wisdom and moral superiority. It’s much harder, however, to see the emotional or practical payoffs in apocalyptic hysteria about our current condition.

Smearing prior generations can enhance our sense of unique and unprecedented excellence (“Never trust anyone over thirty,” the notorious Baby Boomers once declared). Perhaps, in the same sense, the militant alarmism about our current moral state can promote the conviction that confirmed gloom-and-doomers are much smarter, more righteous, more attuned to horrifying realities than the obtuse people (or “sheepel,” as they are derisively designated) who refuse to acknowledge looming disaster.

This doesn’t mean that selfish or insincere motives always shape the outlook of those who see America as corrupt beyond redemption. Most moral alarmists nurse the forlorn hope that their stern warnings will somehow motivate the society to abjure its evil ways before we pass the final point of no return. For many reasons, however, common sense dictates that exaggerating our decadence, dysfunction and desperation will make revival and renewal less likely and more difficult.

Even so, it’s impossible to deny that those who regularly wail about The End Of American Civilization As We Know It. (TEOACAWKI) take their part in a long and (mostly) honorable tradition that goes all the way back to the earliest days of Colonial settlement.

NEARLY FOUR HUNDRED YEARS OF “THE END IS NEAR”

We prefer to think of William Bradford, the long time leader of the Pilgrim Separatists and for thirty years the elected governor of Plymouth Colony, as a courageous man of faith who calmly overcame every obstacle to establish his profoundly significant settlement in the Massachusetts wilderness. Some twenty-five years after taking shore at Plymouth Rock, however, Bradford himself became the first major American commentator to see evidence of deadly moral decay and a betrayal of his society’s heroic past.

In 1645, he made one of the last significant entries in his journal while in an obviously mournful mood: “O sacred bond, which inviolably preserved! How sweet and precious were the fruits that flowed from the same! But when this fidelity decayed, then their ruin approached. O that these ancient members had not died or been dissipated (if it had been the will of God) or else that this holy care and constant faithfulness had still lived, and remained with those that survived, and were in times afterwards added unto them. But (alas) that subtle serpent that slyly wound himself under fair pretenses of necessity and the like, to untwist these sacred bonds and ties….It is now a part of my misery in old age, to find and feel the decay and want thereof (in a great measure) and with grief and sorrow of heart and bewail the same. And for others’ warning and admonition, and my own humiliation, do I here note the same.”

Historians argue about the reasons Bradford looked so harshly at his own prospering and secure settlement. A few years earlier, in the “horrible” year of 1642, a Plymouth youth named Thomas Granger had to be executed for the unspeakable sin of bestiality (along with all the animals he had defiled). Whatever the cause, virtually every subsequent generation echoed Bradford’s certainty that new attitudes, sins and shortcomings proved unworthy of a sacred, noble past.

One of the old Pilgrim’s spiritual successors, the great preacher (and President of Princeton) Jonathan Edwards, wrote that the 1730’s represented “a far more degenerate time…than ever before.” In his immortal 1741 sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” he riveted the devout Puritan churchgoers in Northampton, Massachusetts and Enfield, Connecticut, by telling them: “ Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell…The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.”

Almost exactly a century later another New England preacher, anti-slavery firebrand William Lloyd Garrison, denounced the impiety and hypocrisy and degradation of his own temporizing generation: “I accuse the land of my nativity of insulting the Majesty of Heaven with the grossest mockery that was ever exhibited to man,” he thundered. He also denounced the Constitution as “a covenant with death and an agreement with Hell” and frequently burned copies of the nation’s founding document to signify God’s righteous wrath.

Billy Sunday, former major league outfielder (for the Philadelphia Phillies and other teams) and famous revivalist, led another moral crusade against the decadence of early twentieth century America: as “the sworn, eternal and uncompromising enemy of the Liquor Traffic. I have been, and will go on, fighting that damnable, dirty, rotten business with all the power at my command,” he fervently pledged in his most famous sermon, “Get On the Water Wagon.” The Evangelist also opposed public dancing, card-playing, attending the theatre, reading novels, and baseball games on Sunday. Even before the “loss of innocence” associated with America’s entry into World War I, he asked one of his huge audiences: “Did you ever know a time in all history when the world was worse than it is now? People are passing up the Church and the Prayer Meeting for the theatre, the leg show and the movies. Oh, Lord, how we need someone to cry aloud, ‘Return to God!’”

In view of our nostalgic view of earlier epochs in U.S. history, these energetic denunciations may look excessive or inappropriate, but they represented men of conscience and character righteously (and mostly rightly) pointing out the sins and shortcomings of the society around them. In some cases, they managed to play positive roles in various awakenings and revivals that periodically changed American society for the better—giving the lie to the common assumption that moral degradation is a one way street that leads year by year, generation by generation, only downhill.

HISTORY OFFERS ABUNDANT EVIDENCE OF MORAL TURNAROUNDS

Most Americans properly revere the remarkable Revolutionary generation and associate lofty moral standards with the spectacularly gifted and energetic colonists who defied an Empire and shaped a durable Republic. Of course, such uncritical adulation of the past must look beyond the highly questionable sexual adventures of many of the most prominent Founding Fathers, including Franklin (an illegitimate son in New Jersey, and numerous romantic conquests during his missions to France), Jefferson (a deep love affair with a beautiful married woman and probable long-term relations with his own teenaged slave, Sally Hemings), Hamilton (a torrid affair with a married woman, while paying blackmail to her husband) and Aaron Burr (literally scores of passionate affairs and persistent rumors of incest with his glamorous daughter). Statistically, a high percentage of first children in Colonial marriages (as much as 30% in some cities) arrived less than seven months after the wedding ceremony ---a powerful indication that strict self control escaped young Americans of more than two hundred years ago much as it escapes too many young people today.

In one area, however, today’s citizens display vastly better discipline and higher moral standards. In their essay “Drinking in America,” historians Mark Lender and James Martin report: “One may safely assume… that abstemious colonials were few and far between. Counting the mealtime beer and cider at home and the convivial drafts at the tavern or at the funeral of a relative or neighbor, all this drinking added up….While precise consumption figures are lacking, informed estimates suggest that by the 1790’s an average American over fifteen years old drank just under six gallons of absolute alcohol a year… The comparable modern average is less than 2.0 gallons per capita.” This indulgence created worrisome problems with public drunkenness in Philadelphia, Boston, New York and other Colonial centers that mirrored, though never equaled, the appalling alcoholism that plagued contemporary masses in London.

In terms of building the nation’s wealth and providing for the comfort of its citizens, American progress has been inexorable in one direction. In terms of any measure of morality, however, the nation has experienced a dizzying roller-coaster of steep ups and downs, zig zags, climbs and reverses, and even loop-the-loops. Religious historians refer to four distinct “Great Awakenings” that profoundly impacted the course of history and the ethical outlook of the populace: the first (from the 1730’s through the 1750’s) led by fiery preachers like Jonathan Edwards and British visitors George Whitfield and the Wesley Brothers, spread from rural districts to the largest cities and helped lay the groundwork for the American Revolution. The second (from 1800 through the 1830’s) brought camp meetings that drew tens of thousands even in remote frontier settlements, the founding of pious, non-conformist sects (including the Mormon Church), and new energy for the anti-slavery and women’s suffrage movements. The Third Awakening (1880’s through 1900’s) brought the Holiness movement, the beginnings of American Pentecostalism, Christian Science, the Social Gospel, Progressive politics, and the resurgent Temperance movement. Many sociologists and theologians see a Fourth Awakening beginning in the late 1970’s and continuing to the present day, evidenced by the power of the so-called “Religious Right,” the growth of Evangelical “Mega-Churches” and a vastly expanded Christian influence in popular culture. Regardless of how one evaluates the significance and lasting impact of each of these periods of revival and turbulence, they give evidence that the nation’s moral and religious history has hardly followed a straight line toward degeneracy and shattered traditions.

In her supremely valuable book “The De-Moralization of Society,” historian Gertrude Himmelfarb focuses on the British model to show that reformers can exert a profound impact on a nation’s manners and morals, virtues and values. The Victorian Era, popularly identified with stuffy, restrictive and judgmental codes of behavior, actually represented a conscious reaction to the excesses and debauchery of the 1700’s. The raising of social standards (readily apparent in statistics on illegitimacy, drunkenness, crime, abandonment of children and more) resulted from conscious efforts by mobilized moralists. “In addition to societies for the promotion of piety and virtue,” Himmelfarb writes, “others were established for the relief of the poor and infirm- for destitute orphans and abandoned children, aged widows and penitent prostitutes, the deaf, dumb, blind, and otherwise incapacitated….The idea of moral reformation also extended to such humanitarian causes as the elimination of flogging in the army and navy, the abolition of the pillory and public whipping, the prohibition of cockfighting, bull-baiting, and bearbaiting, and, most important, the abolition of the slave trade…Less formally, but no less effectively, they promoted those manners and morals that have come to be known as ‘Victorian values.’….The ‘moral reformation’ initiated in the late eighteenth century came to fruition in the late nineteenth century.”

The inspiring story Himmelfarb tells represents one of the most spectacular examples of self-conscious social betterment in all of human history –an improvement in which the United States without question followed the British example. As Himmelfarb concludes: “At the end of the nineteenth century, England was a more civil, more pacific, more humane society than it had been in the beginning. ‘Middle-class’ manners and morals had penetrated into large sections of the working classes. The traditional family was as firmly established as ever, even as feminist movements proliferated and women began to be liberated from their ‘separate spheres.’”

In addition to such sweeping changes of direction, the United States has experienced more limited periods of disruption or renewal. In the Twentieth Century, two world wars undermined the stability of family life and traditional mores, while the 1950’s and its era of American dominance, prosperity and religiosity, saw dramatic improvements in divorce rates, criminality, drug and alcohol addiction, and access to higher education.

The counter-cultural explosions of the 1960’s, viewed by many as the final blow to parental authority, sexual self-discipline, sobriety, and the work ethic, gave rise in less than twenty years to the era of Reaganism and “Morning in America.” Some of the same Baby Boomers who sang drug anthems by the Stones or the Beatles in 1968, came back to church and suburb by 1988, enrolling their children in religious schools and honoring the patriotic and entrepreneurial values the Hippie era so colorfully scorned.

Dr, Allen C. Carlson and Paul T. Mero, authors of “The Natural Family: A Manifesto” see these advances and setbacks as part of a long, indecisive struggle to preserve “the natural family – part of the created order, imprinted on our natures, the source of bountiful joy, the fountain of new life, the bulwark of ordered liberty.” Industrialization brought the “great disruption” that undermined “the natural ecology of family life” when “family-made goods and tasks became commodities, things to be bought and sold” with the factory and “mass state schools” taking children away from their previously home-centered lives. When the French Revolution gave ideological basis to these changes, “advocates for the natural family –figures such as Bonald and Burke – fought back. They defended the ‘little platoons’ of social life, most of all the home. They rallied the ideas that would show again the necessity of the natural family. They revealed the nature of organic society to be a true democracy of free homes.” After the British-led alliance crushed the revolutionary forces of France, “families reclaimed authority. The new, growing middle class soon crafted a moral order centered around the hearth and the mother in the home. More broadly, religious leaders and social reformers worked successfully to tame the industrial impulse.”

Of course, other pendulum swings rapidly followed – with the all-powerful state of Communist and Fascist ideology declaring open war on the family. When ‘60’s free-spirits intensified their own struggle, Carlson and Mero report, they never won the expected easy or sweeping victory. “As the culture turned hostile, natural families jolted back to awareness. Signs of renewal came from the new leaders and the growth of movements, popularly called ‘pro-life’ and ‘pro-family’ which arose to defend the natural family. By the early twenty-first century, these – our- movements could claim some modest gains.”

While many social conservatives perversely refuse to recognize such gains, they need to be acknowledged and solidified to facilitate further progress in the future.

EVIDENCE OF IMPROVEMENT, ALONG WITH DECAY

Those who insist on the recent moral collapse of the United States as a dogmatically unchallenged article of faith need to consider a shocking report in the New York Times on November 23, 2007.

“New York City is on track to have fewer than 500 homicides this year, by far the lowest number in a 12-month period since reliable Police Department statistics became available in 1963,” noted America’s Journal of Record. “But within the city’s official crime statistics is a figure that may be even more striking: so far, with roughly half the killings analyzed, only 35 were found to be committed by strangers, a microscopic statistic in a city of more than 8.2 million.

“If that trend holds up, fewer than 100 homicides in New York City this year will have been strangers to their assailants. The vast majority died in disputes with friends or acquaintances, with rival drug gang members or –to a far lesser degree- with romantic partners, spouses, parents and others…In the eyes of some criminologists, the police will be hard pressed to drive the killing rate much lower, since most killings occur now within the four walls of an apartment or the confines of close relationships.”

The stunning enhancement of public safety in America’s largest city represents a stinging rebuke to those who persist in viewing the nation as a victim of one-dimensional moral breakdown and spreading anarchy. The change could hardly be more dramatic: New York recorded its greatest number of killings in a single year in 1990, with 2,245, and a majority of those deaths involved terrifying violence between strangers. Seventeen years later, the city saw only 428 killings by mid-November – a projected reduction in the murder rate of more than three-fourths, with a likely total of well under 100 victimizing strangers.

Other major cities may boast less spectacular progress than New York (with its two successive—and successful – crime-fighting Republican mayors) but they all show less violent and property crimes from their peaks in the 1970’s or ‘80’s. The criminal ethos regularly associated with social chaos and moral disorder has sharply retreated across the country, while other indicators also show a nation struggling to improve its spiritual and cultural health.

In July of 2007, the Associated Press reported on more encouraging numbers involving the next generation of Americans: “Fewer high school students are having sex these days, and more are using condoms. The teen birth rate has hit a record low. More young people are finishing high school, too, and more little kids are being read to, according to the latest government snapshot of the well-being of the nation’s children. It’s good news on a number of key wellness indicators, experts said of the report being released Friday by the National Center for Health Statistics…. In 2005, 47% of high school students – 6.7 million – reported having had sexual intercourse, down from 54 percent in 1991.”

Even the Guttmacher Institute, affiliated with Planned Parenthood, reported similar declines in teenaged sexual activity. In September, 2006, the Institute observed that “teens are waiting longer to have sex than they did in the past…The proportion of teens who had ever had sex declined …from 55% to 46% among males” in just seven years between 1995 and 2002.

The reduced sexual activity has also brought about a sharp reduction in rates of abortion. The Guttmacher Institute (May, 2006) acknowledges that abortion rates peaked in 1981, just as our most outspokenly pro-life President, Ronald Reagan, entered the White House. In that year, doctors and clinics performed 29.3 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44. Twenty years later, after tireless efforts by pro-life activists and educators, that number had dropped steadily, year by year, all the way to 21.1, a reduction of nearly 30%. Meanwhile, the number of U.S. abortion providers also declined by 11% in just four years between 1996 and 2000 and, according to all recent reports, continues to decline.

In terms of family structure, common assumptions receive little confirmation from available statistics. The divorce rate, for instance, certainly soared in the late ‘60’s and ‘70’s, reached its peak in 1981, then has gone down steadily (if slightly) since that time. Despite worrisome increases in out of wedlock birth, that phenomenon also began to recede in the 1990’s (most notably in the African-American community). Though the much derided “Ozzie and Harriet” family no longer looks as solid or ubiquitous as it did fifty years ago, the Census Bureau’s most recent statistics (2003) show a surprising total of 68.4% of all children below the age of 18 (of all races) currently living in households with two parents; among white children that number reaches 74.2%. Despite its battering in the media, the family remains the normal, prevalent unit of social organization for the purpose of child-rearing.

Moreover, the characters on “Desperate Housewives” may display attitudes and behaviors that represent today’s realities as poorly as some of the idealized family TV shows (“Father Knows Best,” “Leave It to Beaver”) portrayed the complexities of real-life relationships in the 1950’s. In their enormously helpful book “The First Measured Century,” scholars from the American Enterprise Institute report: “The declining incidence of extramarital sex may seem implausible to television viewers who see a world of wholesale promiscuity in which marital fidelity is the exception rather than the rule. The data tell a different story….The remaining bars on the chart, based on the 1992 National Health and Social Life Survey, show an unmistakable decline in extramarital sexual activity during the latter part of the century, especially among married men.”

The various numbers and analyses hardly paint a portrait of some golden age of moral rectitude, or even of functional families: not at a time when nearly thirty per cent of all American children enter the world without the benefit of married parents, or when cohabitation before marriage (despite indisputably increasing the likelihood of divorce) has become vastly more common (and even the norm to many young people).

Nevertheless, the notion of a nation falling apart – “decomposing,” in Pat Buchanan’s pungent phrase – also fails to emerge from any honest examination of the data. The effort to “remoralize” America after the eruptions and disruptions of the ‘60’s has met with some success, but its future will depend to a great extent on the continued vitality of traditional religious faith.

KEEPING THE FAITH

During the heralded “New Age” of the Woodstock Generation, various celebrities and influential intellectuals pronounced the death of old-style American religiosity, and heralded its replacement with assorted cults, fads, and crackpots. Time magazine ran a cover story in 1969 that featured a black background with stark white lettering, proclaiming simply “God Is Dead.” A generation later, the Deity might authorize His representatives on earth to paraphrase Mark Twain: “reports of My demise have been greatly exaggerated.”

Few oracles predicted the stubborn resilience of Christian religious faith, with the most demanding and scripturally rigorous denominations showing the greatest vitality of all. Triumphal talk about the “Fourth Great Awakening” may have begun to evaporate between the Bush re-election of 2004 (with its much discussed emphasis on “Values Voters” of traditionalist religious leanings) and the countervailing Democratic triumph of 2006 (featuring Congressional leaders and prominent candidates openly hostile to the priorities of the so-called “Religious Right”).

Nevertheless, the United States remains an incurably religious society, with levels of belief and participation vastly higher than our counterparts in Western Europe. For instance, Geoffrey Wheatcroft in the Wall Street Journal (November 24, 2007) reported regular attendance at religious services in the United Kingdom at 7% (and a pathetic 2% for the official Church of England). The lowest comparable figures for the United States (reported by Professor Robert Wuthrow of Princeton in a Heritage Foundation Lecture of October 4, 2007) ranged between 30 and 35% of the adult population.

Meanwhile, the Gallup Organization offers its own “Index of Leading Religious Indicators,” measuring a variety of variables: belief in God, the importance of religion in lives, membership in churches, weekly worship attendance, confidence in organized religion, confidence in ethics of clergy, and relevance of religion in today’s society. Gathering data on these issues going back to 1941, Gallup (like other surveys) shows 1957-58 as a peak year for religiosity, followed by precipitous declines, then another rise between 1977 and ’85. After another thirty point decline between the Reagan Era and the Middle of the Clinton Era (1996) religion resumed its upward march, with another twenty point rise. The headline for the overall study appropriately proclaimed: AMERICANS MORE RELIGIOUS NOW THAN TEN YEARS AGO, BUT LESS SO THAN IN 1950’S AND 1960’S.

In any event, the quickening of religious enthusiasm and the growth of evangelical denominations remains an undeniable fact of American cultural life. Professor Wuthrow of Princeton, generally skeptical of all talk of a religious revival, unequivocally acknowledges the swelling power and influence of conservative forces in scriptural interpretation. “First, as a proportion of the entire U.S. public, evangelical Protestant affiliation grew from around 17 to 20 percent in the early 1970’s to between 25 and 28 percent in more recent surveys. Second, because the affiliation with the more liberal or moderate mainline Protestant denominations was declining during this period, the relative strength of conservative Protestantism was even more evident. For example, conservative Protestantism had been only about two-thirds as prominent as mainline Protestantism in the early 1970’s but outstripped it by a margin of 2 to 1 in some of the more recent surveys.”

This phenomenon has produced an increasingly common generational contrast: young people (and especially young couples) who embrace a more fervent, more impassioned, more rigorous religiosity than their parents or grandparents. The clichéd melodramas in the ancient style of “The Jazz Singer” (1927) – where a youthful, assimilated, show business-crazy American rejects the pious, immigrant orthodoxy of his parents – have given way to distinctive Twenty First Century tales of a new generation renouncing pallid secularism and re-discovering long-forgotten traditions associated with an earlier era. USA TODAY reported on this new pattern and indicated that “clergy of all stripes say they are seeing a small wave of young adults who are more pious than their parents. And they’re getting an earful from boomer moms and dads who range from shocked to delighted.”

In other words, religiously as well as morally, Americans refuse to march in lock step along a single parade route, at the same time that we find ourselves unable to stand still. All measures of morality show a complex, multi-faceted, dynamic and, to some extent, turbulent nation. Some Americans (unfortunately concentrated in the entertainment industry, academia and other centers of major influence) explore decadence and experimental values with more daring or abandon than ever before. At the same time, many others flock to our churches and synagogues (where religious services regularly draw four times more participants than all feature films every weekend) and affirm faith-filled values with energy, self-confidence, and dedication that continue to energize the religious conservative movement. In a sense, most Americans have boarded one of two express trains racing in opposite directions – toward more radicalism, or more traditionalism; heading to greater skepticism and secularism on the one hand, or to more spirited religious commitment on the other.

In all cases, no passage is final: life-long skeptics and cynics may embrace Biblical truth in their ‘70’s or ‘80’s (like the celebrated and controversial case of the British professor Antony Flew) or prominent religious leaders, especially when tainted by scandal or tagged with hypocrisy, may walk away from the faith of a life time. Choice remains an option, both nationally and individually – even for those who believe that a Higher Power ultimately forces our hand.

Moreover, in the United States no story concludes with a single generation. Those raised in strictly religious homes will, on famous occasions, throw over the faith of their fathers with an angry and dismissive attitude while pursuing other sources of satisfaction. More frequently today, many children of un-churched, disillusioned and disaffiliated parents may become religious leaders and teachers – and even go home to recruit various siblings or elders.

America remains, as always and in all things, on the move. Those who have already written off this great and good society as the victim of inevitable moral disintegration or unstoppable degeneracy don’t understand the unfailing national capacity for fresh starts and new life.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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The younger generation "gets it"
There is a religious revival taking place among young people in their teens and twenties. If this weren't the case, Medved wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The young people seeking a path to God and a path away from the nihilistic values of their parents and grandparents, are our hope for the future.

I should also note that many of these twenty-somethings experiencing a fresh "Great Awakening" are serving in our military.

Our children are our hope for a great future. Hasn't that always been the case?

Oh no!! Too much freedom!!!
"Sin is so rampant in our country, it is so widespread, it is so tolerated by people in leadership"

What are they supposed to do? Pass laws controlling what we do in our own homes?

I think it's wonderful that religious leaders work to persuade Americans to choose the right path, but I rebel at the idea of giving up my freedom and liberty to coerce such a nation.

Last year's federal restrictions on Internet poker are a classic example of government putting its nose where it doesn't belong. Now look. We have a Democrat Congress, and that won't end any day soon. Next year, we'll probably have a Democrat president to go along with it. So, by overreaching on legislating values, you big government CINOs ended up without the ability to legislate anything, but with a government empowered (by you all) to legislate everything! Great job CINOs. Way to take the party from the real Goldwater-Reagan conservatives and run it into the ground.

I hope you all enjoy seeing President Clinton on the news for the next eight years. Who knows? Maybe Chelsea will follow for eight more. She’s more qualified today than George W.

I hope we real conservatives take our party back by then, if it’s not too late.

Please
People concerned with the moral breakdown in the US need only look at facts. Over the last 45 years, for example, abortion, divorce, and illegitimate children have increased dramatically. Has narcissism and immaturity ever been more widespread?

Maybe the evangelical movement will reverse these and similar trends, but dismissing them is foolish.

MEDVED'S JACOBIN/NEOCON BLOOD IS BOILING
Medved reminds me of the time in the Bible when Satan promised Jesus the whole world and Jesus replied aptly, "Man Does Not Live by Bread Alone."

Medved seems to remember a lot about the Jacobin history of Revolutionary France and the works of
Gertrude Himmelfarb..the wife of Irving Kristol..the Godfather of the Jacobin/Neocon Marxist/Troskyite movement that has now highjacked the Republican party and now the foreign policy of America with its objective mixture of German Rationalism and British Socialism which it seeks to incorporate in its Universalist attempt to spread its political philosophy at the point of a gun or barrel of a cannon and export it to the entire world with American Taxpayers hard earned money.

Medved seems to have forgotten his American history as he seeks to demonize Pat Buchanan and the late Rev. Jerry Falwell...has he forgotten those who came before and warned America about what will happen if we turn our backs on our God?? Most Christians and Jews already know how its gonna all whind up if we just sit by with a complacent attitude because it is well stated in the Holy Scriptures.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Perhaps Medved should visit the Jefferson memorial sometime!!


ALARMIST WORDS FROM OUR FOUNDING FATHERS
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech


ALARMIST WORDS FROM OUR FOUNDING FATHERS
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

ALARMIST WORDS FROM OUR FOUNDING FATHERS
George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."


“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

ANOTHER BIT DOG HOLLERS!!
THE JACOBIN/NEOCON TROSKYITE MARXISTS LIKE JONAH GOLDBERG, MONA CHAREN, AND MICHAEL MEDVED are just a few of the NEOCONS who would like to walk the halls camouflaged as true conservatives but its too late, the cat is out of the bag!

More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:
1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.
5. They express no opposition to the welfare state.
6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
8. They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.
9. They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and
withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.
10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should
not be limited to the defense of our country.
14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)
16. They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

Moving away from zealotry would help
I am a conservative and I am a homosexual. Until the Republican Party can get back to basics and accept the new reality that homosexuality is a condition of being and NOT a moral choice, I will continue to find the zealotry driven homophobic fundamentalists, that the party is catering to, anathema.

I too believe in family values and I abhor the promiscuity and the parental irresponsibility in today’s society. But when Republicans ignore science and medicine when they inform us of something we did not know well in the ‘50’s, and when I am treated as a second class citizen by my own government due to my natural sexual orientation, then I am as incensed as a woman or a black would be having their equal civil rights denied.

It is time for this obsession with homosexuality to be replaced by attention to real and present dangers to America and to the American family. And homosexual families can be and are just as valid as heterosexual families and we deserve to treated as such.


Well said, Stormrunner!
I am a natural Repub/Libertarian voter who has not once voted for a Democrat.

I had always regarded the xian 'right' as a necessary evil and a minor irritant. It now seems clear that 'minor' is incorrect, and 'necessary' is called into question.

I cannot imagine voting for Hillary, but maybe I'll have to get used to it if the folk on this site have anything other than a minor role in _any_ Republican candidacy.

Soooo depressing.

Boutte........Thankyou for your input
I agree with you about the illegals coming across our border...this was also the way the Roman Empire fell.............

THE BARBARIANS INVADED AND TOOK OVER THE ROMAN EMPIRE!! I guess the word had gotten out that "All roads lead to Rome"...just like it has in the United States with "All open borders lead to America"............Its really about the repeat of the collapse of the Roman Empire...only its the collapse of the American Empire!! :O))

A great moral collapse...
is foolish. Individuals fail or succeed in their moral lives, not a nation. Economic collapse, that is more likely, though even there some will survive. During the Great Depression unemployment was as high as 30 percent. That left 70 percent still earning a living. America is declining, as an economic and political power, but that is merely because the ideas that prevail in our culture deem that it should decline - by force of government. Government not only of Leftists but of Conservatives.

I can't believe it, Boutte 2/2
This is the third post tonight with which I totally agree. Amazing.

1/2 I'm not so sure about, but there's truth there too.

Evangelicals shift on divorce
Evangelicals shift toward acceptance on divorce
What does this say about the evangelical movement?

USATODAY-When Pentecostal power couple Randy and Paula White recently announced they were headed to divorce court, the most remarkable part of the reaction was that there wasn’t much reaction at all.

For increasing numbers of clergy, a divorce no longer generates the kind of career-killing hue and cry of decades ago, in part because plenty of people in the pews have experienced divorce themselves.

The shifting views on divorced clergy reflect a growing concession among rank-and-file conservative Christians that a failed marriage is no longer an unforgivable sin.

For many evangelical Christians, the line seems to have shifted from a single acceptable reason for divorce — adultery — to a wider range of reasons that some say can be biblically justified.

“I am probably one of those evangelicals who would say it would be three A’s for me,” said Chris Bounds, a theologian at Indiana Wesleyan University in Marion, Ind. “Abuse, abandonment and adultery.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/evangelicals-shift -toward-acceptance-on-divorce



stormrunner
Stormrunner writes: "It is time for this obsession with homosexuality to be replaced by attention to real and present dangers to America and to the American family. And homosexual families can be and are just as valid as heterosexual families and we deserve to treated as such."


I am a conservative atheist living in Massachusetts. Every year in Boston we are treated to the spectacle of the "Gay Pride Parade" in which all manner of perversion is, you'll excuse the expression, paraded in public for all to see. I'm not just talking about homosexuals proud to be homosexuals, but every conceivable offensive sexual perversion in deed and on signs are proudly exhibited.

This is gays idea of "family values?" Thank you very much, but I'll pass on your sort of family.

It's kind of difficult to avoid this "obsession" with homosexuality when gays are constantly in your face whining about their lot and complaining that being gay is no different than being hetero.

Reading the Book of Revelation
might make Mr. Medved not so optiistic. It is not a pretty picture of where things are headed. I wonder if the book is reliable? How about a column on that Book? Man is head toward the Great Reckoning and he, man, won't go down with out a fight, to man's own chagrin. Not enough optimism in the world will improve it's dark picture.

What about Abraham?
I agree that the downfall of morals in America is very frightening and bodes ill for the country. At the same time, however, I think of Abraham in Genesis 18 - how many people did it take for him to convince God not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Ten. Well, even though there's a lot of evil in America, I think Medved is correct because there is still a whole lot more good. Long Live the United States, and may we all help our neighbors and each other be a little better every day.

Verbosity
The subject of Michael Medved's article are invariably intesting and vital to our national discourse. However, they are overwhelmed by his incredible tendency to over-talk - his loquacity. I wish that, after he has written an article, he would sit down with a red pencil and see how he can convey the same message in one-half or one-third of the number of words. The chances are he, as well as his readers, would find his ideas clearer, more understandable and effective.

Don of Cincinnati

Medved's take on Buchanan's latest tome
Brilliant! Medved remains the most eloquent and knowledgeable commentator on cultural trends throughout history, and contemporary mores. He rightly notes that Paleoconservatives, such as Buchanan, are much like the Loonie Left in their condemnation of America -- for different reasons of course.


Buchanan has been right all along
Medved,a phony "conservative" belongs elsewhere along with Linda Chavez --both cheerleaders for Globalism and the downfall of the USA. I've often thought Linda has a reserved spot in the North American Union for her efforts and am now sure Medved also has a spot courtesy of his propaganda. Sick of these idiots who continue to ask us...

"Who ya gonna believe ? Me or your lying eyes???"

John Konop
Just a single observation here John, but...divorce has NEVER been an "unforgiveable sin". What Bible have you been reading?

According to the scriptures, there is only ONE unforgiveable sin.

As for Medved's analysis, remember the words of the Bible, "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." 2 Peter Chapter 3.

Don't think because we have gotten away with things up to now that it means God will not demand justice.



Medved a demagogue
demagogue: a person who tries to stir up people by appeals to emotion, prejudice, etc. in order to win them over quickly and so gain power.
Medved writes: 'Michael Savage(nee Michael Weiner).
Mr. Medved what does a person's former name have to do with the argument?
What?
Medved is a demagogue who has an un-American agenda.


"Agreeing to Agree"

The posts herein offered are, for the most part, amazingly accurate. With few exceptions, the majority are able to recognize Michael Medved spends an inordinate amount of time saying precious little about anything substantive. He mostly tends to pontificate profusely while simultaneously letting everyone who listens know that he is, of all men, most ignorant.

Don't give up
Medved is simply urging us to keep up the good fight. It is no more nor less than what the Christ advocates (John 16:33), nothwithstanding biblical predictions of some pretty nasty last days.

There is no question that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. There is also no question that these values have been under severe attack for many decades by secular-progressives. If you do question these two facts, then you live in an alternate reality.

It is our duty to continue living the values of our founding fathers, and promoting these values through our words and our deeds.

America is going to hell
and she's taking us all with her.

Why?

Because the "moral majority" has their heads so far up their own butts that they can't see that they are not gods.

WRONG
This country was founded on neo-republic deistic ideals and based upon secular humanistic and new age capitalistic economics.


Idiot.

Social Stigma, whatever
Okay, you read the HUNDREDS of quotes from the founding fathers about God giving us our rights, and God protecting us, and God leading us, giving thanks and praise to God, etc. and you conclude that they were deists.

Whatever. Like I said . . . the SP's live in an alternate reality.

Hello?
Re "Pernicious lies about our guilty past": well, we did kill off the buffalo. We did kill off the Indians. We did enslave blacks. We did provoke the Mexican-American War so we could take land we wanted for our own expansion. We did tolerate the Robber Barons. We did put up with lynchings. We did exploit workers until the labor movement spoke up in their defense. We did come up with the idea of Manifest Destiny. We have tolerated horrible conditions for the migrant agricultural workers whose work has kept our food prices low. We have despoiled our environment, sea to sea.

Only children and mentally ill adults split the world neatly into Good and Bad elements. Healthy grown-ups know that good and bad coexist. Some of what we have done as a nation is Bad. To rationalize this and insist it all was really Good plays only to those among us who remain forever children---or are a little bit crazy (and that would include the revisionists who now insist that none of those Bad things ever happened).

SIr Aslan
Thank you for describing what a neocon is for Michael so succinctly. He obviously doesn't get it, and this should help to educate the poor man.

I used to listen to his radio show, but that whiny know-it-all voice has really started to get to me lately, especially considering the neocon (see Sir Aslan's post above) drivel that he's always spewing.
America is a sovereign nation, and it's about time we started acting like it. We are NOT Israel, we are NOT Mexico. We are AMERICA, and we need to put our own interests first for a change. This is NOT isolationism, it's plain common sense.

The Revolution is here.

Ron Paul 2008

for BBert
BBert writes: "There is no question that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values."

That's only partly true:

The Judeo-Christian ideals of which you speak, definitely informed our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the means by which our society conducts its political business. It's helped to make America the great nation she is today.

BUT our Judeo-Christian ideals were routinely flouted by what citizens did in the privacy of their own bedrooms!

There is a vast gulf between social morality and personal morality. How we deal with each other to form a society is one thing; what we do when we're alone inside our own bedrooms is quite another.

It's always been that way. Benjamin Franklin is rightly revered as the wise old man of our Revolution. But in private, he was a dirty old man who fathered an illegitimate child out of wedlock. And had a reputation as a womanizer who enjoyed carousing. So what?

To Bob C
My town also has a Gay Pride Parade. Unless I travel across town and put up with huge crowds, I cannot see it. Unless I turn on my TV for coverage of the parade, I cannot see it. If you don't like the Gay Pride Parade, why are you looking at it? If you don't want gay people in your circle, don't befriend any or invite them to your home. In the workplace, you can be civil but remote to gay colleagues. Surely if you find out your dentist or physical therapist or accountant is gay, you can give your trade to some straight professional.

Why are you obsessing about this? I doubt that "gays are constantly in your face whining about their lot". Are you seeking them out? Seeing them everywhere you go? Thinking about them all the time? Find them hideously fascinating? Hmmmmmm.

Dishonest Jackass
45 million aborted babies in 35 years with no hope of stopping the holocaust. Illegitmacy rate at 38 %. Divorce rate at 50 %. Music is decadent. Art is decadent. Sexual misconduct is rampant. The American sports pages resemble a police blotter, the current hero being a murdered thug who millions are shedding lachrymose tears over. More Americans than ever suck on the teat of government for substanance. One could write for hours and weeks to accurately detail America's social collapse.

Michael Medved is intelligent and knows all the vital statistics. Thus he is not ignorant of America's squalor but is being dishonest in attacking those who know the truth. If Medved does not recognize America's decline, then he is no conservative. He is an enemy.

BBert
Re quotations from the Founding Fathers establishing the United States as a religion-based nation: Just in case you are thinking of the books of Dave Barton, please know that Barton has been discredited as a historian (he is not a historian at all, but a Christian educator). He has admitted that he distorted and/or fabricated those so-called "quotations" of our Founding Fathers. Nevertheless, he has been retained as a consultant to the GOP, so his teachings may have come to you indirectly.

Flux
How does one measure the moral condition of a nation such as ours?

The media are no reliable measure because the channel owners control content. Polls are no reliable measures because people tend to misrepresent personal matters reflecting poorly on their character. The laws are not a reliable measure because they are against immoral conduct, not for moral conduct. But most of all, political speech is not a reliable measure because it is rarely offered in the service of truth.

Perhaps a general good public order and a personal courtesy and ease that a nation maintains are the most reliable measures of its moral condition. If so, America is far more moral than are most other nations I've visited or lived in.

In search of a chaste past
There is an underlying tone of nostalgia among many social conservatives for an imagined vanished past in which America was truly chaste: Women were virgins till they got married; no one cheated on their marriages; no one solicited prostitutes.

Unfortunately, historians haven't found any such period in all of American history!

Ben Wattenberg looked into this in his 1982 book "The Good News is the Bad News is Wrong" (still a great read). He wrote that if there ever was an America that was chaste and pure as the driven snow, he can't find it in the statistics or the history books. And neither can I. Consider:

In the 19th century, before antibiotics, syphilis was a deadly epidemic in America, killing Americans of all ages and classes and ethnicities;

In the early 19th century, in supposedly puritanical New England, the legal age of consent for girls was 12 (!!!); and child prostitutes plied their trade in several New England cities;

My mom, who grew up during the 1930s, told me that in her junior high school classes in the late 1930s, most of her female classmates had already "gone in the back seat of a car" (that was the euphemism back then) before they graduated JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL;

Surveys show that even among women born in the 1940s, over 80% of them had lost their virginity before getting married.

America has always been a POLITICALLY revolutionary society. But morally?

Not chaste. Not virginal. Not pure as the driven snow.

"Lusty" would be a better word to describe our ancestors who built America.

To Sir Aslan and Boutte
What a morning, what a morning. Boutte thinks the United States is "going to bell in a hanging basket" [sic] because it has replaced the volunteer militias of pioneer days with "a vast professional" military. Sir Aslan isn't happy that some Americans "believe a powerful federal government is a benefit". Listen, folks. If we should be attacked from without, good local folk with hunting weapons won't be able to repel the invaders. It ain't 1776 any more. We need a "powerful federal government" as our first line of defense. Which I thought was something conservatives care about. Going to bell in hanging baskets notwithstanding.

Decadence a good thing?
I remember a movie that circulated a while back in various colleges. Some student had been caught on film in perverted and swinish sexual activity, and the reaction of the movie watchers was to throw rice at the screen, to jeer, and to express disgust.
It seems to me that one man's decadence was reacted to very negatively. Disgust is a good emotion - it prevents decadence. And the students in the audience showed plenty of disgust.
On the other hand, you have to wonder - maybe a little tolerance of decadence can be more humane, in some situations.

our history
This was the most uplifting article I've read in a long, long time. Thanks so much for writing it Micheal...

Save Your Country


We have run out of time on the illegal alien inundation. We either stop it now or we lose our country. Rudy won't do it. He thinks it's impossible to enforce our laws. I want someone who doesn't.

The GOP cedes their best issues by running Rudy. He agrees with Hillary on abortion, gays, guns, and amnesty. I want someone who doesn't.

America is worth saving. Vote conservative.

StevenL
I don't see how your last post can be true given the statistics of children born out of wedlock, divorce rates, dramatic escalation of abortion despite dramatic escalation of use of effective birth control, dramatic increase in crimes of rape and child molestation, and the explosion of pornography on internet and indecency on TV.

I'm talking about before and after comparison with the "sexual revolution" of the 1960s.


Raaaaallllphhhh.
"understand the unfailing national capacity for fresh starts and new life"

The above is the only thing worth repeating out of the entire article, but Medved's meaning is anything but American.

Medved, we are individuals and not some controlled national mass. We are Americans and everything about us is based on individualism, freedom from oppressive government and we certainly are not some mass national group. You are a fraud, you are un American in your writings and thoughts and should be removed from TH or any concervative/republican media sources.






Don't let Medved fool you
There are at least 3 big problems with Medved's article:

1. Apples and oranges: Medved's article is mostly designed to shoot down Buchanan's new book. Problem is I don't think the main focus of Buchanan's book is about the lack of Victorian morality, it's mainly about our liberal immigration laws and Buchanan is totally correct that liberal immigration can destroy the nation.

2. Medved admits that problems with immorality in the past have been corrected by conservative (mostly Christian) reaction by those who have cried out in protest but his article is designed to pooh pooh those who are now crying out in protest. We desperately need the voice of like Buchanan and Medved wants us to ignore them, which would result in our peril.

3. As to immorality, Medved misses a huge point, to wit: the difference between our struggles in the past and those of today is that NEVER BEFORE has immorality been so openly endorsed and promoted in the media. This creates the immpression of public acceptance of homosexuality, same-sex marriages etc. This is a very new, very real, very different problem that must be corrected.

surprisingly good column
as someone above noted, it is longer than is useful. Sir Aslan apparently gave up after the first couple of paragraphs or it is hard to understand his criticism that Medved hasn't considered the history involved.

But this idea that we are in the darkest days since Sodom and Gomorrah has been a virtual constant in history. I have gotten old enough to see my contemporaries hurl the same accusations against the next generation that the last one hurled against us.

But while abortion and divorce rates may be up over the last 45 years, they are down over the last 20. (Although they may be trending upward over the last few years). And there has been a sea change in the drops in levels of prejudice in the country over the last 45 years which is something worthy of celebration. So while some things get worse others get better.

Every generation feels itself uniquely under threat of decay. And to date in America, every generation has been wrong. Medved is right that the persistence of American values is something we should be proud of. He is wrong to minimize the evils of things we have done in the past because at the same time it minimizes how far we have come and so plays into the hands of the doomsayers.

I agree with Lilly
so far this morning.

It's ridiculous to assert that there is no wrong in our history. Equally ridiculous to assert we've been nothing but a force for evil. The good news is that we have righted many of our past wrongs. We have more to do.
I suppose if you took a snapshot anywhere in history (ours and others), you could find plenty of 'moral collapse'.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
When Reagan made Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday it could have been a moment in time for Republicans and Democrats to come together and discuss values.

Alas, such was not the case.

"The pace of technological advancement today is such that now we have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Medved writes as if technological advancement has had no role to play and that the moral challenges faced as this country has grown have been interchangeable.

The moral issue is not that every generation claims the new generation is going to h*ll in a hand basket.

The moral issue is that people with their noses in the Bible cannot perceive the changing world requires renewed commitment.

For example, why is it that children can access on the Internet very easily that which was previously nigh impossible in the real world? Does the answer lie in moral deprivation? Or does the answer lie in inability to deal with new technology?

When you start asking the question "why is it that pornography is widely available on the Internet?" you will find the answer is complicated.


If the public and the Congress want these kind of moral laws passed and yet the attempts fail, the question is this: why? Why can we not control the Internet pornography?

Martin Luther King, Jr. said it best. We can't handle the moral challenges of technological innovation.

Technology can be the devil's door to temptation if we do not step up to new the challenges. Republicans rant about the moral depravity of Hollywood, but what do they actually do about it?

Why is it a forgone conclusion that "Christian Rock" cannot be popular music? Christian music once was popular music at one time? Was it moral degeneration of generations over time that brought about this change or was it perhaps the inability of each generation to tackle of moral challenges presented each year by technological advancement?



Robert
Thanks for your itinerary. It was my turn to watch you.

Its all endng
Its a race, will the United States collapse before before global warming drowns us all?!

Pondering:
Is it better to have low standards and expectations that you can always live up to and achieve making you not a hypocrite?

Or is it better to have high standards and expectations that you may fail to live up to and achieve making you a hypocrite?

Sex
Sex is a moral topic that has been deeply affected by technological advancement.

Was it abortion that led to sexual revolution? Or was it the "pill" the condom and every other type of birth control that exists today.

As technology has handed us birth control in all manner of easy forms, technology has also handed us all kinds of new sexual temptations. Sex without the risk of pregnancy was a technological advancement that brought about one of the greatest moral changes in history.

The question God is going to ask us is "what did we do about this new form of temptation presented by the devil?" The answer, I'm afraid, has been one of denial.

Something like 50% of all kids lose their virginity before the age of 16, 80% before 18. These are new historical numbers made possible by birth control, aka technological advancement.

These numbers are so pervasive they reflect that children having sex is happening equally among the "value voters" as with the "degenerate voters".

I believe the number is 95% of all Americans getting married today admit to having had sex before marriage. That is unprecedented at any time, anywhere on this planet, even for Sodom and Gomorrah.

The irony of the right focusing almost exclusively on abortion as opposed to the root cause... out-of-wedlock sex...is made clear by the technological advancements of the day. The "morning after" pill single-handedly will insure there will be no rise in birth rates if Roe v. Wade is overturned. Add into that mix the technological advancement that the abortion machine used to conduct 90% of abortions today can be bought on the open market for less than $400 and you have a case of anti-abortion advocates fighting a moral war made irrelevant by technology: overturning Roe v. Wade. Eliminate sex out of wedlock and you eliminate most abortions. Overthrow Roe v. Wade and you eliminate nothing.

God understands this. Do we?




SunThe1
Solely focusing on the wrongs of the past is just as bad as asserting that there is no wrong in our history..

I know far more that do the latter, Lilly is a good example.

Knight
Good point (I'm assuming you are making a point). It is far better (it's essential) to have high standards and continuously fight to achieve those standards.

The Left will always accuse the Right of hypocrisy and the Left will always be the real hypocrites.

Liberius Yes and No
You make some valid points. The problem is, we see the evils of society far easier than they did in say, the Roman Empire, where public execution, gladitorial games, and massive orgies were common. The thing is, most Roman citizens were not exposed to these things since they didnt have a cable hook up and closed circuit TV. But their brutality was far worse, even though the masses didnt see it. Even still, this country needs to make an ethical stand against the rampant moral decay that so many in society seem to feed, by their apathy, if not their open participation.

DriveByPosting
Who is going to eliminate sex out of wedlock?

Santy Claus? The Easter Bunny?

Knght pondering
Good question!
I say better to have ideals, to recognize when you're failing to achieve them, and keep trying. But I agree, that makes you a ripe target to be called a hypocrite.

Sean Taylor's America
When hundreds of thousands of Americans weep lachrymose tears over an athletic thug like the late Washington Redskin Sean Taylor (including dozens at Town Hall and Free Republic), we are losing the culture war. Sean Taylor was a barbarian, nothing more, but he is idolized by so many. Sorry he's dead but Sean Taylor is a symbol of a culture falling into the abyss.

driveby
Your points are very interesting. Any advance in technology is fraught with ethical issues. The A-bomb, stem cells, and as you point out also birth control and the internet, along with other mass media.
Even fire presented man with the coice to cook or become an arsonist.

A Distinction without a Difference
Two problems with this piece:

1) Lumping Buchanan in with Evangelicals regarding political and religious gloom and doom. Buchanan's assessment is political and completely based in political reasoning with respect to a healthy polity. Michael, you get to avoid all those political arguments of Buchanan by lumping him in with revelationists and eschatologists. Not to mention the first half of the article can be summed up this way: "Buchanan is just a bitter meanie, and is popular because a bunch of Bible thumpers buy his books." This is not an argument and it is not true.

2) Also, despite all of the legitimate sunshine in our culture which you point to, you end up agreeing with Buchanan's assessment of the common good of our country's path toward disintegration. You criticize Buchanan of saying the country is tearing itself apart and then you turn around and say this:

"In a sense, most Americans have boarded one of two express trains racing in opposite directions – toward more radicalism, or more traditionalism; heading to greater skepticism and secularism on the one hand, or to more spirited religious commitment on the other."

Umm...how is this not a recipe for disunity and bifurcation of the body politic? Express trains in opposite directions? You sound just like Pat Buchanan except with the requisite foresight to be alarmed by your own observations.

Thanks for what you do; but this was off base.

Derek Leaberry
Why would you write that Sean Taylor was a symbol of culture falling into the abyss?

Was he a homosexual or a virgin?

Pat is right
It's not gloom and doom. It is looking at the obvious and trying to figure out how to modify behavior BEFORE it is too late. You can smile, and deny what is plain to see, all the way to your grave if you want tobut some of us are just as interested in 2050 and beyond as they are about today.

sir Aslan, do you understand the Jewish
connection to (domination of) the neocon movement?

This has everything to do with perceived Jewish ethnic interests at the expense of Gentile interests.

Medved
Propaganda Minister in waiting for the North American Union.

why such anger?
After reading all of Mr. Medved's cogent, fact-based and rightfully optimistic article... and then wallowing thru some 55+ "comments", I am struck by the number of posts that do little more than express anger that Mr. Medved can see a silver cloud in today's admittedly complex world.
To all those who want to be angry, give it a rest. Better yet, try re-reading Mr. Medved's thoughtful article in its entirety and with an open mind.

Bob
While you are correct in your history of the Roman Empire I don't think it is that helpful when assessing American's current situation. I think a focuss of before and after the sexual revolution and and emphasis on today's media is more appropriate.

Unfortunately, many people are influenced by what they think is ACCEPTABLE by the culture. TV and Hollywood are doing serious damage because they paint a picture of acceptance of things that our society used to condemn.

The Problem with Medved
but to be fair, most posters here as well is that they see culture and the history of culture as if it were a movie, with narrow, sequential events that somehow are, now that they've happened, fixed in time. Often it's not even the description of a cinematic narraive, it's almost cartoon-like.

With regard to religion, for example, there have been three major revivals is America - they have come and gone. Somehow, though, this one is the happy ending, where God's warriors go off into the American sunset with 2.5 heterosexual white children accomanying them. A poster here commented that Americans have become "narcissistic and greedy", but he hopes religion will change that. The fact is, the most successful churches (definitely not all of them) have become narcissistic and greedy as well. Also, why would anyone think that if our churches grow in unrestrictic poer, it would necessarily stop with mega-ministers who fly their own private jets and own several homes? There is nothing in the historical record that indicates things just keep getting better and better..America's history is just a nannosecond in the big picture.

America is not going to hell, but it is what Medved never seems to see in anything...complicated and many layered.

and
cultures collapse for many reasons - usually not becaue people get abortions or gays marry, in fact, I don't think that one ever has, as much as the bible likes to think so. Most often it is preceded by the collapse of environment, political collapse from within, or subsumation by another power, which isn't likely to happen any time soon.

Political collapse from within is another matter; we now have so many greedy people feeding off of the ideological divides in America, making large amounts of money by perpetuating the myths that "conservatives" and "liberals" hold about each other, capitalizing on and stoking the misconceptions and rage both sides have about each other that our country becomes more and more divided to the point where people are no longer "Americans" and really don't care what happens to any group except their own. Right now I think this is our biggest danger. Liberals and conservatives see each other much the way that African-Americans were viewed 50 years ago or in the way we are taught to see our enemies in wartime:
alien, dangerous, not quite human and deserving of human consideration, not having the same interests, and portrayals that are full of myths and distortions. And, all the while, we are worred about who marries whom, which candidates are CHristian enough, black enough, etc.

Moral Times
In 1918 Prohibition was enacted.

Let's think about the morality then and almost 100 years later.

The progressives, which then were conservative Christians, got the entire Nation to make a moral stand against the devil in alcohol.

1.) Today, we don't even acknowledge the moral problems surrounding alcohol. Fifty-thousand people a year die on the road, and of those fifty-thousand people, half are involved in alcohol related accidents. Half. That's 25,000 people killed relative to the 3,000 in 9-11. We are willing to make a moral stand against terrorism but unwilling to make the tough choices with drinking and driving; we have surrendered any moral stand against alcohol. Twenty-five thousand deaths per year are just accepted, fin la historia.

2.) That generation actually passed a moral values voter amendment. Wow.

3.) The fight was against sin. Today the right wing is ALL about condemning other humans known as "the left". Jesus instructed us that is not our mission. No one is ever truly lost and with respect to people we are suppose to love our neighbor in that we hate the sin but love the sinner.I believe anyone can be saved and I believe that the most liberal of liberals can be brought to God and I treat liberals accordingly. The generation that passed Prohibition were able to get the votes to pass prohibition precisely because they were fighting a sin, not the class of people who liked drinking.

We, the current generation, do not have what it takes to mount a moral campaign similar to 100 years ago, to pass a moral values amendment, because we have lost our way. We hate the sinner as much or more than the sin and condemn them to permanent "enemy" status. Our "us vs. them" game insures we can never bring together a super majority need to pass a moral amendment. And we certainly have no clue how to anticipate future technological challenges, nor have a clue how to handle current ones.

Lilly
As usual, Lilly misses the point.

Stormrunner has made the statement that there is no difference between gay "families" and traditional families.

Lilly, you are like all neolibs. You think words speak louder than actions. Right here in this city, the police are constantly having to clear our adult theaters, parks and hiking trails (where women and children also congregate) of gays who're engaging in public sex.

As far as avoiding the gay propaganda, it's impossible. It's being taught in schools now, from 3rd grade onward. It's being shoved down our throats by statute and nitwit judges. The filth and immorality that is paraded around by gays constantly in public, on television, on the internet and on the movie screen is apalling unless you're a liberal. Even pedophiles are getting passes here in Massachusetts.

It is a fact that children who do not grow up in a stable household with two parents do not do anywhere nearly as well in school or early adulthood as those who do. Two gays playing house is not a stable household with two parents. It is a household (stable or not) with two of one parents. You either have two men or two women. No matter which of those parents wants to play at being the opposite sex, it doesn't hack it. A man and a woman both bring their own individual characteristics to nurturing which cannot be faked.

You can make all the cute little inuendoes you want, Lilly. Neolibs are great at calling anyone who criticises gays "homophobes" or minorities "racist." In your case, you didn't have the guts to come right out and say it. Nope. You just hint that just maybe I'm a little light in the loafers myself. As much as I disagree with you, I did think you were above that. Guess not. A neolib is a neolib.

This is an example
of what I'm talking about:

Liberius said,

"The Left will always accuse the Right of hypocrisy and the Left will always be the real hypocrites."

Liberisu obviously thinks he's on to something original and deep, but the fact is that simplistic idea has been placed there by radio, third-rate pliticl books, columnists, and volumes of rhetoric that is an industry in American culture, and needs people like Liberius to keep selling it's product. The same thing happens on the left, because there are always enough angry people who don't really understand why they are angry and are looking for a place to dump it.

sorry for all the typos
I really do know how to spell but try to type too fast.

Sin vs. Sinner
The focus on the "sinner" has made the right morally impotent and a good case in point is gay marriage.

Something like 20 states have laws on the books stating marriage is to be between a man and a woman, INCLUDING CALIFORNIA.

That's right the liberal state of California passed a marriage amendment, with numbers somewhere in the 60%.

To wit, there is a super-majority of voters in this country who would support a marriage amendment, but the amendment will never live to see the light of day because the right wing is all about condemning the liberals. The right wing cannot see past their noses when they do have moral values in common with "their enemy".

What would it take for the right wing, the Republicans, to work with the 60% of Californians who voted for a marriage amendment in their state?
It would take the right wing to reach out to liberals and ask them for their support.

That, my friends, will never happen. Not in a million years because the right wing hates liberals, hates Californians, and will put hating the sinner above hating the sin any day.

calm.Touj
Sorry, but you are off. I'm independent-minded and I came to my beliefs long before conservative talk radio.

I'm 41 years old and I've studied the Left most of my adult life.

Bob_c
Bob, public sex and promiscuity are noxious, but neither is specific to homosexuals.

As far as "families" go, bear in mind that all male/female families are not Ozzie and Harriet, and that neither are same sex families necessarily decadent and immoral. The flaw in your argument is to paint all of either with too broad a brush.
I would much sooner have a child raised by two loving parents of the same sex than by abusive traditional couples.

Lilly said
" It ain't 1776 any more. We need a "powerful federal government" as our first line of defense. Which I thought was something conservatives care about."

I agree with Lilly but unless the body politic is somewhat cohesive and identify with each other has Americans having a common cause, we will have a federal government that is either weak or will have to be supported by a well-paid, loyal army, something like Myanmar or North Korea.

Liberty
Conservatives should be for ordered liberty and not for radical individualism and permissiveness.

Robert
What the hell do you know? You claim to live in Saudi Arabia where gays are executed.

Haven't been home for awhile? Eh, Bobbie?

driveby-moral times/sinners
I agree with you about the futility of hating the people instead of their behavior.

HOWEVER a couple of bones to pick:
1) Liberals can be brought to God --that's a bit arrogant of you, notwithstanding the faulty premise that some who is liberal cannot also be religious.
2) Prohibition as a model-- so how did that work out?

Medved is known
For his many words

As is:
Job 11:2 -
Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?

Proverbs 10:19 -
In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Ecclesiastes 5:3 -
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
-------

No better proverb for Medved to read than this one line.

"and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words."

Liberius
'I'm 41 years old and I've studied the Left most of my adult life.'

I have children older than you are. Trust me, twenty years of ammunition-gathering does not make you an expert.

Also, I'm afraid your statement gives you away in terms of your concept of sociology or history. You think you can study "the left", which has no single meaning, as if it were a single monolithic entity. Hate to tell you, kid, it has meant many different things at many different times and has no meaning at all unless it is in context.

I chose your earlier statement as an example because it was such a sweeping generalization, and sweeping generalizations are something no serious "student" of anything would ever make.

Oh, but, Liberius
I meant to say also that the earlier post I selected as an example was the perfect illustration of what the right wing profiteers want you to think and worse, HOW they want you to think, (which means they really don't want you to THINK).

I'm not attacking righties only, it happens on both sides. Right now it's heightened because of elections, and intellectual and political manipulation is the order of the day.

Sun
The post about prohibition made me scratch my head as well. My husband's father grew up on the north side of Chicago, when there hardly was a north side, and I can tell you the best thing prohibition did for most people was make them very rich.

Sort of like ideological politics.

SunThe1
Are all you people that thick?

My point is, contrary to what Stormrunner claims, GAY "FAMILIES" and HETEROSEXUAL FAMILIES ARE NOT, AND CANNOT BE THE SAME, NOR ANYWHERE NEARLY AS GOOD AT RAISING CHILDREN.

Argue exceptions if you want, but that's for fools. Hell I can argue that giving up an education to pursue an NBA career is worth the risk because some actually make it. The statistics against success are staggering, but hey, who am I to judge.

If you're going to argue with me, please stick to the subject.

Pay Attention
Isn't it possible that Buchanan and Medved are both right and should be heard, and that both have much to contribute? I have long been a fan of both men and their contributions, and to my mind it is folly to see only one view as correct rather than to recognize that each represents particles of the true conditions in America. I live here, and see the truth of both men's claims, but in truth, my view of reality here is closer to Buchanan's then Medved's. I hope Michael is the better informed.

Medved & Lilly
both seem to be downplaying the issues, by saying it has always been so, and therefore it will always be so.

The difference is, however, that in the past, the decadence, and moral debasement was outside the norm, and rarely tolerated in polite company.

Now, however, the moral debasement and abject decadence is not only tolerated, it is openly admired, publicly displayed, and whenever possible to ram it through the courts, publicly financed.

That 60's generation that everyone is so fond of blaming, was in fact a small, radical portion of the population, and did not represent the majority, any more than the current crop of Amnesty pushers represents all of the US. They just had the benefit of the news constantly covering their every move, just as the Amnesty bunch does now.

That said, that tiny radical bunch did have unbelievable influence, and they changed everything they touched to the worse. Schools, Welfare, Movies, Catholic Church, Law (Not) Enforcement, and any number of other highly influential institutions where they got their grubby mits soon fell to their control, and we've been paying the price ever since.

Medved may well dismiss this as a minor mis-step, quickly overcome by the masses who can see their wicked ways - as happened in the past. I don't see that happening, as they were smarter than in the past. Ancient baddies just committed their crimes, and seduced the weak to join them. Those 60's baddies committed their crimes, took over the schools and governing bodies, and now are indoctrinating the young, and criminalizing anyone who objects.

Spanking bad behavior is now going to be a crime? Letting murderers and rapists out early for good behavior is the norm, and the age of child molestation keeps being reduced, with the ultimate goal of saying all children can actually consent. (Condoms, Birth control & Abortion on demand for 13 yr. olds?).

Aborted
Up, down or whatever, we as a nation allow 400,000 abortions each year today.

Maybe that's part of the reason some (not me) feel we must import illegals to keep our population growing enough to finance the cost of the aged. I have heard that one of the fastest growing segments of our society is persons over 100. If you consider that most took SS when they were 62, that's a long, long time to expect support from asystem originally intended to provide minimal benefits for a year or two.

I'm not making any judgements here, but facts are facts whether we like them or not. Fewer babies, more seniors. Just exactly how mush wisdom can they impart that has not been covered in the Bible?

Robert
If I cared what you think, Bobbie, I might be crushed and dismayed at the grade you've given me, but the fact of the matter is that I couldn't really care any less what you think. That's why I don't answer your questions.

You've been proven a phoney and a liar too many times on TH. I don't discuss issues with liars.

Bob_C
I missed the part where this became a forum on gay marriage.

KM
You said,

"The difference is, however, that in the past, the decadence, and moral debasement was outside the norm, and rarely tolerated in polite company."

I do alot of research on "the past" for my work and have interviewed many, many people about their experiences in "the past"

The fact is, most vice was just less public. Much of what happened was not talked about in the polite society that you are citing to define America...much of it was much worse.


and
Clandestine sex with same-sex partners, children, or other people's mates may have been kept private, but lynchings, drunk-baiting, and the like were often bragged about, even photographed. In the 20s, criminals and gangsters were almost national heroes...we made movies about them that like Medved's view of history, washed away the broken kneecaps and uglier, often more subtle part of reality and provided them narratives that made us weep with sympathy.

The price that was paid, especially by women, for this silence was that they had no one to talk to, and those that were getting beaten to a pulp by an errant and often intoxicated husband had to endure their horrors in private. Abortions were probably, from what I can tell, more frequent, and often more diastrous, because the secrecy with which private life was conducted meant that an unwanted pregnancy was the end of one's social, and often, family life.
It is not a bad thing that those who were so endangered by ostracism and disgrace that they performed knitting needle abortions or Killed themselves rather than reveal their sexual proclivities can now find safety by means of more public tolerance and acceptance.

What has happened now, I think, is that the more open view of what happens of what happens behind closed doors has now gone in the opposite extreme, and we are prsented with an frequently fictionalized version, say, of suburbs where everybody is murdering or having sex with everybody else, or crazy torturers kidnapping the unsuspected for ingenious fun. Also, with our technology and news-in-our-living-room culture we are under the impression that children get stolen out of their yards every day by deviates and everybody under 21 is a moron.


Bob_C
Like you, I take issue with people who use exceptions rather than the norm as the argument, and I have probably done that here, so you're right to have called me out on it.

My trouble is that I am not sure in this case what the "norm" is for either traditional or same-sex families. My guess is that neither do you. If that's so, then Gays who want to create stable families are done a great disservice by the public image that's created by the parades and the activists. That's also true of many of the other issues I can think of. Pacifists are done a disservice by the Cindy Sheehans and Jane Fondas. The military took an unjust hit by abu ghraib. The 60's got defined by the woodstockers, but that wasn't the majority of America.
Many do not stop to think that if they see it on the news, that's because it's "news" and not the norm. Or that if it's loud and in your face, it represents any kind of majority.

Touj
Be specific. Tell me exactly where you think I'm wrong. I'm confident in my assessment of the Left. Tell me precisely where you differ from me.

touj
You make a good point about the profits to be made feeding on (off?) the ideological divide. It is in every pundit's interest, every media outlet's interest to play it to the hilt, make it appear more polar than it really is (by and large by playing the fringes against one another, while ignoring the great bell curve in the middle).
The only defense is to think.

Morality On The Ropes
Michael,
I have been a Christian pastor for over thirty years, now disabled, but I agree with you to a degree that many have to keep up their listeners by preaching gloom and doom when our history shows us that at the darkest times in American history the Christian church members who had their heads on straight sought God in passionate prayers for the rescue of our declining moral state. This is illustrated by the great revivals and two great awakenings. If one is a student of America's religious history, we recognise that things were very bad before these awakenings, much like today. I feel that prayer to an all powerful God is better than speaking hopelessness. For Christians, the end will produce eternal bliss with God in heaven so why do we despair? As a Christian pastor my greatest ,desire is to see millions, even billions of people turn away from a self-destructive life style and put their hope and trust in the Jewish Messiah, Y'shua (Jesus). John Adams made it clear that the constitution that they formed was for a moral people. It cannot endure under any other.
By the way, thank you for defending Christianity so boldly on your program. It is appreciated very much.

Pastor Ike Riddle

The Good the Bad and the Ugly
As already stated, Medved is an arrogant know it all
jerk who constantly berates alone who has a differing opinion. He is always trying
to 'shore up' the sheeple into blindly following the
neo-conservative party line.


Sorry Mike, you can't fool all the people all of the time. But you keep trying none the less.

Stop already. Get real with it, yes Dr. Phil would kick your neo-butt into seeing how small you are in the grand design.

Sun
I hope the next time I am invited to a dinner party where there is lots of conversation you are sitting next to me.

Your point about pitting the fringes against each other is so important; when I browse through many of the politicized blogs - left and right- I have to remind myself that they do not represent the greater whole and are exploited for, mostly profit. I wonder how many people TH keeps employed on a regular basis?

lilly - we learn and we change
lilly, you seem to have missed one of the central tenants of Christianity, which is that we can change our ways and become better (aka, repentance).

Yesterday we killed buffaloes, today we have a national parks and wildlife preservation system that is second to none.

Yesterday, we brought slaves to our nation - a terrible practice that had been part of human history for centuries. Then, we were second only to Great Britain in abolishing the practice, and we fought the bloodiest war in American history to rid ourselves of the stench and stain of it.

Yesterday, we lynched. Today, we still bring prosecutions against those who participated in these lynchings over 40 years ago and we have created a special class of crime (hate crimes) to add extra punishment to those who break the laws today.

Yesterday, we supported/tolerated certain robber barons. Today, we prosecute them and send them to prison.

Yesterday, we despoiled the environment. Then we passed comprehensive and sweeping environmental laws that have produced spectacular results. (Go back and look at pictures from the 60's and 70's.) We now have more trees and forests on the East Coast than we did in the 1850's. In time, we hope to eliminate certain types of pollution altogether.

Yesterday, we fought labor unions with unfair tactics. Today, labor unions and management sit down face to face and hammer out compromises and solutions using words and not baseball bats.


Liberius - here's a few
"The Left will always accuse the Right of hypocrisy and the Left will always be the real hypocrites."

How is it possible to think that hypocrasy always, only exists on the "left" and never on the "right"? When discussing such a conditional, amorphous subject, how can you possibly even use the word "always"?

Apparently your point is that conservatives are incapable of hypocrasy, notwithstanding all the sex scandals, bribe-taking, shady lobbying deals.
I have a flash for you, Liberius, both sides are capable of vast amounts of hypocrasy, it's immature and naive to think otherwise.

Here's another
You said to Bob: "While you are correct in your history of the Roman Empire"

in fact, Bob was far from correct, but it's not the subject of the thread so I didn't comment. This picture of the Roman Empire is similar to the pop-narrative of America that Medved espouses.

I could go into detail, but most people like the movie version of the decadent Romans and are bored by the truth - sort of like TH.

Touj
Can you please name for me an example of a right wing extremist in America? Or at least someone from the right who you think is on the "fringe"?

Touj
Gee wiz, I was speaking in generalities. OK, I usually avoid using the term "always". Of course it is technically not correct. I stand firm though that there is a huge difference between the Left and the Right when it comes to hypocrisy.

Generalities do exist and they should be acknowledged. Always avoid saying always. Never say never.

Medved is a good historian I suppose
and I don't always agree with Pat Buchanan. Since I haven't read the book, I cannot say what Pat's main point is, but if it has to do with the political side of the equation, I would say that the America we have had in the past is not what we will be having in the future! The issue of import here is Constitutional government, without which religious freedom will not survive.

The two major parties have set us against each other by promoting the liberal/conservative ideologies that have been hardened into a partisanship that is unravelling the country. The idea that we have no other choice, nowhere else to go, has allowed the two to accrue ever greater power and given partisanship the primacy over leadership and addressing the challenges facing our country.

We need to recognize that if we want a different result, we need to act differently. Another elite President from either party will only encourage more of the same; more big government, more partisanship, less personal freedom, and greater influence to the internationalists. As the owners of this great country, we should reassert our authority in 2008 by denying the elites the Presidency. THAT will get their attention.

I urge all to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG, where I lay out quite clearly how the elites have created a mess that allows them to perpetuate the big lie that only "they" have the wisdom, knowledge, and experience to govern. This lie has been used to keep the voters unaware of the fact that we can change the direction of our country at any time if we have the faith and guts to do so.

The elites are hired help and they have not done the job they were hired to do. 2008 is the time to reclaim the birthright that has been stolen from us and to restore the Constitution, rule of law, and will of the people as our self-governing principles. Check out the site, you will not be disappointed. Comments always welcome. Thanks, Joe

Liberius - your comment to /Steve L
I don't see how your last post can be true given the statistics of children born out of wedlock, divorce rates, dramatic escalation of abortion despite dramatic escalation of use of effective birth control, dramatic increase in crimes of rape and child molestation,

The problem is, we don't really know if these things have actually increased since there are no reliable statistics that go back very far. Also, "dramatic escalation" is pretty much a meaningless term - what is dramatic to you, may not be dramatic to most people, if you take into accoutn population growth and other cultural changes. (You don't think that religious people never haver have abortions, do you?)

Statistics show that the criminilization of abortion has no effect on the frequency, in any society. I would guess that since out-of-wedlock pregnancy is now more acceptable, there are in fact fewer abortions.

Touj
I think the comment about the Romans was correct to this extent: they did have open prostitution and their rulers were allowed to engage in abominable practices. I don't doubt that corruption assisted their decline.

Touj
You are sticking your head in the sand. No reasonable person can ignore the statistical reality of a before and after comparison to the sexual revolution of the 1960s.

Liberius
I meant to put quotation marks around the first paragraph of my last post.

I have to type a letter for my husband, but I'll get back to you.

"arguments" against Medved
Look, if you disagree with Medved, please state he said such and such and then rebut it.

Lose the "He's a Trotskyite/fill-in-the-blankist" garbage.

Work the argument. We'll all be better off for it. If you feel infuriated, yell (*@U#PH@#J or something when you're typing, but type an argument against what you disagree with.

Thanks for reading the E-mail. The Rev. Jack will now silently fold his keyboard and shut up.

Liberius
You asked for examples of right wing extremists.
You'll likely get all kinds of responses to that. Some will cite amorphous stereotypes (racists, rednecks, etc.), which has no merit. Some will cite comments from posters here on TH, but some of the more extreme rightist posts I've seen here were obviously plants (the most prevalent were very racist posts during the immigration flap by posters whose names I haven't seen before or since).

So I'm assuming you want specific examples (names)of the right wing "fringe".

I thought it was pretty extreme to blame 9-11 and the Katrina disaster on our "moral decay" (homosexuality, abortion) That would be Falwell. To be fair, Ward Churchill from the left also blamed 9-11 on our moral decay (capitalism).

Nonetheless, I'd name some of the evangelicals in Medveds first few paragraphs as extreme, (and I hope "fringe").

I'll grant you that naming names of the right fringe is harder than naming the left fringe.
It will be interesting to see what kinds of answers you get.


Social Stigma
You sound like someone brainwashed in our socialist, pathetically incompetent, public school system.

How old are you; about 15?

SunThe1
Thanks. But while I disagree with Falwell and Robertson's comments about this being the hand of God, you have to admit that, generally speaking, those Christian ministers are not extremists. Falwell was simply an old-fashioned preacher who was effective in modern media. Robertson actually did well when he ran for President. The values they spoke of were simply traditional values. They actually made less "hell-fire-and-brime-stone" sermons than ministers used to do.

My point is that if those guys represent the "extreme" then that speaks quite well of the Right.

jeez Medved
your late struggle for relevance has left you floundering. You've proven yourself to be an elite Defender-of-the-Status-Quo, and a major jerk to boot. I can't believe you get paid to do this.

Liberius, Sun
Whom do I consider right wing fringe?

Well, right off the bat, I would say Mike Adams, Kevin McCullough, and many others who write columns for TH. There are definitely columnists who are not fringe-y and there are columnists who are just businessmen, and know which side of their bread is buttered, so to speak.

I would say Richard Mellon Scaiffe and the editors of the American Spectator, everybody connected with the American Taxpayer's Party, esp. Jore, David Duke, and in history, Frances Yockey, Billy James Hargis and Robert Welch. I would call all of the right-wing religious people who preach dominionism to be very, very, right wing, but here is that strange area where secular politics and religious politics overlap./Frankly, I think Rick Santorum is a little fringe-y as is Virgil Goode. I also am trying to think of the name of that ultra-conservative guy that Medved loves, the one who said that he wanted to kill the federal government or something similar - help me out, somebody. THere are also a raft of third-rate writers on Medved's program from time to time, one of which said that Hillary was a nymphomaniac who held origies in the White House. Medved called him a "serious intellectual".



I'm doing this really fast because I just found out I have a 3:00 appointment. I like the conversation, though.

Too Much Sunshine
Dear Mr. Medved:

Your essay was well-researched and incisive. However, I think you make too easy with analogies to the past. Certainly, Western nations have gone through periods of decadence, yet experienced a moral revival before the point of no return was reached. Yet, as you have pointed out, it took a fervent faith-based movement to accomplish this in the nick of time. Nor, I believe, has any society ever been exposed to such rank and relentless perversity from so many sources as has our's today.

Let's just take films alone as an example. You are on the Board of Directors of CAMIE (Character and Morality in Entertainment), along with other respected notables. Last May 12th, CAMIE held its annual award ceremony. One of the awards given was to 13-year-old actress Dakota Fanning for her performance in the charming film "Charlotte's Web".

What you ignored, however, was the fact that this child, after starring in this film, was corrupted into acting the central role in "Hounddog", a movie that, while ultimately rejected by distributors, successfully broke the barrier into child pornography in feature films. It was largely due to her starpower that the filmmakers were given a legal pass.

And this is only one example. Children are the direct targets of a culture that has degraded them into objects of utility and thereby seeks their corruption for profit. And, by pointing this out in my letter to CAMIE then- and my reasons that this reward to a brainwashed little girl was thus inappropriate- the response was "we try to reward the good". My reply was, "Yes... but when the bad is this egregious, it cannot be ignored, much less rewarded".

And when we reward institutionalized indecency with children, we shake the very foundations of a moral-based culture. How soon before it collapses, at this rate?




About Rome
Roman civilization was very complicated and hard for us to really comprehend. Among the upper classes, which is really most of what we can know, life was very restrained ffrom the beginnings of the second century onward, and shows of anger, greed, emotionalism were considered almost taboo.

Rome lasted a little over 500 years, and the images of orgies and Christians in the colleseum have more to do with Cecil B. DeMille than with reality. (In fact, the notions of Christians being killed en masse in the colisseum is pretty much bogus, if it ever happened at all it was extremely rare, and those events usually took place in the provinces).

Roman decline had more to do with the dwindling slave force as it pulled back it's territories, famine, economic decline due to the diminished shipments of wheat, and to an even greater extent, the increasing numbers of mercenaries intheir armies. The change in law pertaining to how Emporers could accede the throne also had a major effect.

You just can't ascribe the demise of 500 years of rich and complicated history to a decline in sexual morals.

M Sederoff
You were probably a high school drop out and have this hate for our esteemed schools, the best in the world. You can at least take steps to educate yourself. First assignment look up socialist and then look and read about a guy by the name of Joseph Geobbles.

Liberius
Give me an example of when generalities can be used when discussing human culture and behavior.

I changed my appointment
so now I can also add that the movie notion of Rome being an uncivilized, orgiastic, pagan blood-fest while the Christians were by total contrast conservative and demure is popular but false. In some ways the ROmans were more socially conservative than the Christians. The notion of sex as an impure, corrupting pastime was originally a late Roman notion that the Christians adopted.

Steve
"You are on the Board of Directors of CAMIE (Character and Morality in Entertainment), along with other respected notables."

"What you ignored, however, was the fact that this child, after starring in this film, was corrupted into acting the central role in "Hounddog", a movie that, while ultimately rejected by distributors, successfully broke the barrier into child pornography in feature films"

Steve, they gave her the award after she made the porno fim? If so, would they have had the oppurtunity to have known about it, before giving the award?

Medved
is also on the board of the Discovery Institute, so I wouldn't place that much importance on the importance or relevance of board memberships as bestwoing credibility.

Good Job Mr. Medved
Some day, I say in jest, scientists will find out that the crass philosophizing and self-indulgence of those who refuse to go beyond their petty, arrogant and disjointed ideologies (evident in much of the reaction to your essay) do so because some human gene (say, an anger gene) made them do it. Why should we listen to anyone who doesn't see the need to further the debate Pat Buchanan raises about the historical context of our present politics, but to kill it with supercilious observations? If Pat Buchanan does indeed see the current course of history as the end of the United States as we know it, then you have done a good job of raising a well written retort to that idea--that we have seen this alarmism before. You did not raise Pat Buchanan as the distinct target, as charge by some, but you raised those alarmists, such as Michael Savage and Pat Buchanan and others that share that point of view.

Louis
I don't understand what you are trying to say. This thread has been a very strong debate on Buchanan's view as well as Medved. People have come down on both sides.

What did I miss? Are you just upset that not everybody agreed with Medved?

I just can't get over all this moaning
and groaning when Christians tell the world they are agaisnt sin. God hates sin and we are following His example...Let those who Love the Lord hate evil for he guards the lives of His faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked. Psalm 97:9-11. It would be better to concentrate on what conservatives have in common rather than what divide us..."A house divided against itself cannot stand". Otherwise we'll be handing over the governance of this great country to Governess Herr Hillery as fast as a bat out of Hell.

On "Hounddog"
Dear Mr. Lemski:

They were perfectly aware of the nature of "Hounddog". After the initial consternatiion it raised in July 2006 (when it was "outed" by columnist Lloyd Grove) and especially in January 2007, after its tumultous premiere at the Sundance Film Festival, all culture watchers knew. In their reply to my email, the CAMIE spokesman admitted as much. Their response was that the late Cardinal O'Connor, a founding member of the group, had specified that they only consider the positive aspects.

While I understand the concept and respect the reputations of CAMIE's directors, I firmly believe that they carry it all too far. "Hounddog" was a watershed event in Hollywood history and one that threatens everything that CAMIE stands for... among its lesser faults! For the two weeks of Sundance, Hannity & Combes (among others) fiercely debated the issue along with a number of guests.

BTW: I still deal with this subject a lot on my present website at "xanga.com/STEVENPILL". Best wishes.

I'm going with Buchanan
Michael is clueless.

Morality- On the upswing?
Michael Medved quotes some numbers that may be encouraging to some people but the comparisons he makes are quite limited. Morality is and always has been associated with the church and as long as the church is declining so will morality and the nation. I am 71 years old and am now fearful of walking the street at night and I live in a small rural town. To clarify that and to provide facts of life I want you to compare the church attendance of the 1950's and today's attendance statistically. Back then we would never lock our cars, never lock our doors, and never fear for our lives in any part of town. How then can you say that the doomsayers are wrong? I believe America is Going to hell; it's just taking a little longer than most people thought.
John

Medved: In Leftist Fashion
There is no leftist trick that Medved will not hesitate to employ.

Today on his radio show he accused the honorable Patrick Buchanan of lying in his new book "Day of Reckoning". No, Pat couldn't have made an error. He couldn't have made a mistake. He was LYING. Michael said so.

Michael is among a group of conservatives who regularly point out that it is FALSE to say "Bush lied" his way into Iraq. And Michael is correct, Bush didn't lie. A lie implies INTENT to deceive and there is no evidence at all that Bush intended to deceive America with WMD intelligence.

That Michael would turn around and do the same thing he comdemns the left of is proof that Michael Medved is an unmitigated hypocrit.

This is classic Michael Medved. On hopes that Townhall and Salem Radio Network will fire this unprofessional and hypocritical man.


for Nobody
Nobody writes: "To clarify that and to provide facts of life I want you to compare the church attendance of the 1950's and today's attendance statistically. Back then we would never lock our cars, never lock our doors, and never fear for our lives in any part of town."

I agree with you that the crime rate is higher than it was back then. But it has nothing to do with any imagined "decline of the church." First of all, the Christian Church is probably healthier in America than in most Western European countries, even those with a lower crime rate than ours.

Secondly, I know exactly why the crime rate rose so much. It rose due to changing demographics. Blacks and Hispanics started moving into the Northern cities, and whites fled to the suburbs, taking their businesses and wealth with them. The result was a steadily decaying urban core in most American cities. Clean up that urban decay, bring business back to the cities, and you can reduce crime sharply. Rudy Giuliani proved you could do that in New York City--he cut the crime rate in half that way. This year, New York City is on track to have the lowest murder rate in decades.

And Rudy isn't a Christian evangelical, as you know. He didn't work through the Church to accomplish the turnaround of New York. He did it with the cops.

Why hasn't that happened in other cities? They don't have mayors as tough as Rudy.

zzzz
Its usually fun to read a Medved attack peiece and then destroy his thesis, but I really could not even get through this one. He is really getting boring. I think it is his attempt to force us to the left that is zapping all his strenght as we all know leftist arguments dont have enough logic to last longer than a bumper sticker.

I guess I should give him kudo's for attacking the book that clearly supports Ron Paul without actually having mentioned any of the conservative policy ideas that Buchanon and Ron Paul share.

How should we then live?

‘If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?’ [Ezekiel 33:10]


Michael, we remind you of the history of redemption recorded for us in the Old Testament. Even though we reject the idea that America is New Covenant Israel, there are principles revealed that do apply to America or any other nation.

We concede that the early Americans were not without sin. The details were not required to make that point. However, you miss the important distinction between early America and modern America. This is the same difference that separated early Israel and the apostate Israel that was led to captivity. The favor of God was changed into licentiousness because the gospel message was corrupted…


When autonomous wisdom replaces divine revelation men begin to leave off the preaching of sin as the transgression of the Law. They preach peace when there is no peace.

Without the Law, lawlessness abounds. This is what threatens America and what brought Israel to destruction. As in days past redemption lies with a rejection of the wisdom of men and a return to the gospel message revealed in the Scriptures.


Continued on the blog…

for Liberius
Liberius writes: "I don't see how your last post can be true given the statistics of children born out of wedlock, divorce rates, dramatic escalation of abortion despite dramatic escalation of use of effective birth control,....I'm talking about before and after comparison with the 'sexual revolution' of the 1960s."

You have to be careful to make FAIR comparisons, not comparing apples to oranges.

I cannot compare abortion statistics, because abortion was ILLEGAL in the 1950s--and hence by definition, accurate statistics about abortion rates were hard to come by. A wealthy family could arrange for an abortion for their daughter that no one would ever hear about again.

As far as access to sex-related items like porn, you have to compare DEMAND, not just SUPPLY. Obviously the Internet made porn more accessible. But was the demand for it always there in the American psyche, just not talked about? After all, how many Americans admitted openly that they went to peep shows, or brothels where porn was shown as part of the entertainment?

We cannot estimate demand for porn in the 1950s because AFAIK, no surveys ever asked Americans "If you had ready access to porn in your own home, would you use it?"

I cannot compare incidence of rape because what we now call "date rape" (acquaintance rape) wasn't even reported in the 1950s. Back then, we used to make jokes about it--"oh, Susie got mauled at the party last night."

We can only compare things we can accurately measure.

Society is trying to adjust
There's no question that American society has undergone some pretty wrenching upheavals, starting in the 1960s. But it had to. It had to adjust to huge changes in interpersonal relationships caused by PERMANENT advances in medical science.

The contraceptive Pill, first marketed in 1960, made it possible to have sex without reproduction, giving the woman control over conception. Vasectomies made it possible for men to eliminate procreation entirely.

Then in-vitro fertilization made it possible to have conception without sex.

New careers opened up for women who no longer had to worry about their careers being derailed by unplanned pregnancies. Women became financially independent; for the first time, there were married couples where the wife earned more than the husband.

Traditional moral strictures evolved in a time when the wife/mother would be helpless, impoverished and starving without a husband. If she had any kids but no husband, the kids would starve too.

None of that is true anymore. As a result, the long history of male dominance and female submission is finally coming to an end for the human race. That's a HUGE change for the human race and it's no wonder that we're going through some tough times trying to figure out how to deal with it.

Once Upon A Time
There was a drunken driver, who, after veering off the road, drove back onto the road several times before finally hitting a tree, and killing a perfectly good tree. America became great while being "one nation, under God". Becoming global and, after taking credit for our greatness(instead of giving the credit for all things good to where all things good come from-GOD), tolerating being separated from God by the libs, has changed what it means to be an AMERICAN. I keep thinking of Tiger Woods saying , when asked what race he is, instead of seizing the opportunity to proclaim "I am an AMERICAN", he said he is a member of the human race. I suppose there is an argument for the humanity of that statement, but there are a lot of 'humans' I prefer to not be equated. "There are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on"- until the end of the road, where that big ol' oak tree is waiting. Now, I gotta go throw up.

Medved is a bore!
I truely cannot think of a more smug, arrogant, condescending psuedo intellectual on the current scene than Michael Medved. While he may be well read on certain things, his fervent adherence to neo-conservative dogma apparently does not allow him to process history as it really has happened, which in turn does not allow him to recognize what the future holds for America and the western world.

For a man like Medved to ridicule someone like Pat Buchanan, who was 20 years ahead of most observers of the culture on the immigration issue, shows how little Medved has learned and how little a man Medved is in stature.

Lets Compare This
In the years prior to 1960 Black women actually married at a higher rate than White women. The vast majority of births were within wedlock and most of the people in jail were White. Since the Sixties the Black family has been broken, most Black children are born out of wedlock (many destined for poverty) and most of the people in jail are Black. The same path is being followed by an appalling number of Whites and Hispanics.

The changes the Sixties brought were not the result of medical breakthroughs but the result of the rejection of traditional morality. I mean the morality of family that had developed over the past several hundred thousand years. That morality came into being and was used because it worked. That is how traditions develope, by trying things and seeing what works.

The new tradition is to do things that don't work and then let the nanny state step in and promise to protect people from the effects of bad decisions. Note I said 'promise'. The truth is when you do something stupid and it hurts you, your children and your community there is no protection to be had. The family is the glue that holds civilization together and the point of the sixties counter culture was to break the family. The plan was to substitute the state for the family. The problem is that the substitution does not work.

Dark Matter: I know this isn't the topic
but I just can't let it pass.

You said,

"Michael is among a group of conservatives who regularly point out that it is FALSE to say "Bush lied" his way into Iraq. And Michael is correct, Bush didn't lie. A lie implies INTENT to deceive and there is no evidence at all that Bush intended to deceive America with WMD intelligence."

------------------

Here's what I think happened: I think Bush lied, but he thought it was true; that is, he knew that the evidence wasn't really there to support his "facts" but he was convinced that when we got there WMDs would be found and no one would ever know he "stretched" the CIA reports.

Unfortunately, you don't have to play poker to know that bluffs don't always work even when they are well intended.

Medved
was a Hollywood script writer and I think that's pretty much how he sees the world, like a simple, uncomplicated made-for-TV story where the good guys (conservatives) all look like John Wayne and the bad guys (liberals) like the late Yul Brynner. By his own admission, he re-invented himself in mid-life and has written the perfect, tidy script for his own story.

However, I think that he's smart in this sense: this is a script that makes alot of $$ for him, and he is heavily invested. That, and also in the bitter partisanship that divides us - it's his bread and butter.

Gloom & doom waiting for Jan 09?
In this column and on his radio show lately Michael Medved has been telling us how wonderful everything really is and crusading against "gloom and doom" thinking. Considering what a Republican partisan Medved is, however, I have to wonder if his tune will suddenly change after the election of 2008, if it should result in a thoroughgoing Democratic victory. Will this still be the "greatest nation on God's green earth" if and when it is led by President Hillary? Will everything still be for the best in this best of all possible countries? Or will Mr. Medved suddenly join the gloom-and-doomers, accentuate the negative, and warn of impending disaster and damnation if we don't repent and thorw the Dems back out?

touj
Good dinner party.
;-)

Simple Algebra
A congressman from Texas, today, said ,if we obeyed the law and exported all illegally trespassing, breaking the law with every breath of American air they breathe, foreign and proud of it, undocumented(possibly terroristic- we do not know who they are) to whence they belong, so they can become law abiding Americans, and come in like the LAW says, it will wreck the economy. Well, after hearing how rosy the economy is, simple deductive reasoning pokes my eyes by proving the economy is only rosy because 1 out of 20(I think it was) workers in America are unknown to the people being paid to defend our country. You could compare America to a gangster standing in front of a school, selling crack to parents, after they drop off their kids. That dude has it goin' on,Cadill..I mean Lexus parked right by, starched and pressed name brand clothes, paid for with American cash. Our economy is built upon crime. The results of right versus wrong are pretty well proven, in my mind, throughout history. There is a good reason for a careful immigration process(maybe ours...obviously ours needs an overhaul). There seem to be more and more people in this country, who do not give a rat's a$$ about anyone but themselves, and certainly not about being an American. Many Illegals I meet do not even like Gringo's. They are just here for our money, and some for our women. They do not want to be an American. Again, simple deductive reasoning pokes me in the eyes, as only Moe Howard could, proving we are headed for the day of America's death, or a hellacious civil war. Why do these people want to come here? Because their country sucks. Yet, many still do not want to be an American, along with many here legally. It is inevitable, following current trends and attitudes, America is going to be like Mexico- a few(relatively and relatives) mega rich, and a whole bunch of poor dumb asses, who allow themselves to be subjugated by those few, or run away to another country. I gotta go throw up.

Sun
Definitely!

Great Piece
Great analysis Michael. Pat Buchanan is entitled to his opinion, but frankly what has he ever done to deserve the opportunity to express them on the national forum. In Pat's sake I think he should actually read a book before he writes another. He's starting to sound like the MorOn.Org crowd who pick at this country at every chance. As for the "what if" Hillary Clinton wins, this country will still remain great regardless of her ignorance and ineptitude. She won't win though because this country has Bush/Clinton fatigue and is looking in another direction. With at least 50% of the people having a negative opinion of her, the country will never come together under her. We need someone with the leadership skills to unify this country. Someone like Richardson, or Mitt Romney come to mind. Hillary ain't it.

America's morals
Sorry Micheal, America has more than lost its morals we are aproaching rock bottom. To prove my point check out the latest Rolling Stone interviews of celebrities. Regardless of how much money they make they are talk like ignorant bums. America's idols are rap stars and black athletes. White culture is following blacks into the toilet. White kids talk like ignorant blacks now days. Most people can't carry on a conversation without cursing and using the F word. Homosexuality is leading us to ruin. Sex in public is the norm

we are approaching another moral turn
http://nationalmoralitythinkingoutsidethebox.townhall.com/

“No federal government authority, power or court shall have any right whatsoever to usurp the right of any single state to establish its own moral standards as the local population shall see fit, specifically in the area of human sexual activity, behavior, conduct and decency.”

go to my virginia blog - national morality tom va

Fritz
Unfortunately, most of the 'people' who do vote will be led to believe Hillatola is honest, will take care of everyone, whether they work , pay taxes, or not, or even want or need her help. As far as most voters will know, all conservatives are all around bad people, who only care about the rich people (could be true for many Rep. politicians). By the primaries, Barak Bin Obama will have been trashed so bad publicly by the Hillatola Express( if not threatened), he will move back to the Mid East from whence he came. Consequently, the Clintahammuds (Hillatola and Billibubbla) will infest the White House again, and the orgies will begin. I need to go practice throwing up, as I foresee alot of that in my future(I will be Hillarycare's best customer).

SteveL
Abortion was not ILLEGAL in the 1950s. It was only illegal in some states, and was merely restricted in almost all others. It wasn't impossible to obtain. It just wasn't available as a means of birth control. It was (mostly) restricted to specific circumstances: rape, incest, danger to the life of the mother, and the pregnancies of the mentally disturbed.

What we have much better statistics on from before the 1950s are births to teens and unmarried women. If all the juvenile sex you are so certain about was going on in all those black-and-white decades of yore, what was it that changed, when we switched to a world in color, that caused teen and unwed births to go UP -- and so dramatically that it's impossible for the increase to have been an artifact of sampling error?

Wouldn't such births logically have gone down, according to your argument? You yourself have pointed out that over the counter contraception only became widely available in the 1960s. It thus could hardly have averted pregnancies in the 1930s.

It strains credulity very seriously to suggest that, without contraception and with access to legal abortions restricted, millions of 15-year-old girls having sex simply didn't get pregnant -- didn't contract STDs -- or, as you might propose, were having back-alley abortions in droves.

The world didn't suddenly become sentient when you arrived in it. It was, if course, eight shades of gray back then -- but it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that juvenile sex occurred in the 1930s just as it did in the 1990s, yet in that technologically challenged era, girls magically avoided pregnancy and STDs, and/or were getting hundreds of thousands of secret abortions per year; all completely undetected and unremarked on by their seniors.

That FANTASTIC past
By which I mean it is based on fantasy. I always want to ask why, since no one ever locked their cars they were equipped with locks and keys. And ignition keys. No one locks the water faucets in front of their homes in suburban America today and, of course, there is no way to lock them. I used to work for Denny's which was "Always Open" -- said so on the front door. We had a gas leak one night and the fire department insisted we close and LOCK the door. We had to go to one of our homes, it being 3 AM and find chains and padlocks. The doors had no locks.

Good points but Mike is wrong
While some of the authors on the right Mike talked about do go over board, overall they are correct.

This is not like Liberals and Global Warming where they are predicting things a long time ago yet continue to preach about the end with no evidence at all.

The Bible is our guide in this life. We KNOW the world will end but we do not know when. These are the latter days and we are in the final hour of the final day. We know how far our country is heading in the wrong direction with our culture and values under constant attack.

Just tonight a show was on TV I was watching and the ENTIRE plot was about a girl coming home from school and expecting her boyfriend to sleep in her room with her. When the father said no way, he was made out to be the bad guy by all of their friends and even his wife.

Things get worse every single day. We need to face up to the facts and live the best we can and follow Christ. The end is coming but we need to carry on either way because it might not be my lifetime but perhaps my Childrens or my Childrens children.


Mamadeus:
"As already stated, Medved is an arrogant know it all jerk."

And you're not? At least have the decency to keep it civil.

Reply to Bob_C
In their amicus brief (Citizens for Equal Protection v. Bruning), The American Psychological Association, stated:

"The State’s official discrimination against same-sex couples harms the children being raised by these parents. Empirical research studies have consistently found that lesbian and gay parents do not differ from heterosexuals in their parenting skills, and their children do not show any deficits compared to children raised by heterosexual parents. It is the quality of parenting that predicts children’s psychological and social adjustment, not the parents’ sexual orientation or gender. If their parents’ relationships are legally recognized, the children of same-sex couples will benefit from the legal stability and other familial benefits that this recognition offers, as well as from elimination of state-sponsored stigmatization of their families."

The Association has more than 155,000 members and affiliates, including the majority of psychologists holding doctoral degrees from accredited universities in this country.

These are facts. I am also disturbed at the gay pride parades - but understand that they hardly represent the approximately 5% of the population that is gay and look and act no differently than you do. To judge the entire homosexual community by the acts of few perverse or flamboyant extremes is no fairer than to gays than to similarly judge you by the actions of Paris Hilton and other extreme heterosexuals.


Time cover
Didn't that famous slogan appear a few years earlier--say, in '65? By '69 I think it had already been nearly forgotten--at least as theology.

Dyerje
I didn't select any specific thing from your post to quote because I thought the whole thing was good. I came of age in the 50s and 60s - I remember what it was like. I also really believe that there were more abortions then because the proscriptions against out of wedlock pregnancies were so severe that abortions were hidden as much as possible - there was a death in my family from an abortion that everyone told me was the result of flu...I heard this for years until I started asking uestions.

Conservatives tend to be outraged by all of the pre-marriage cohabitation etc. but I really believe that in fact it has reduced abortions, because the social stigma that caused so many deaths is no longer there.

However, Dyerje
There is no reason really to believe that girls had less sex in the 30s. In my lengthy conversation with people who are now in their 70s, it is clear that there was just as much activity behind the barn or in the hayloft as there is now. Remember that STD's are communicable; that means they have to spread. Syphillis didn't exist in the US until it was imported from Europ.

But I think that the biggest issue is the secrecy that characterized those times - I can't imagine anyone answering a question about sex, abortion, homosexuality, etc. honestly.

I have this idea, although I haven't thought it through, that alot of our notions about the 30s, 40s, 50s, come from our movies, which hs been until recently a uniquly American art form.
Our films, expecially through those years either portrayed an escapist world from the depression, or were severely censored by the Catholic Church,,yet we tend to see them as a snapshot of daily life at that time.

The doom and gloomers
are the crazy people who want to launch World War Three because of terrorists.

There is a good case to be made of the moral collapse in America; and it is a better case than what Michael makes in the war on terror.

Michael himself exemplifies how extensive and entrenced the moral collapse in America is, and how that it is found first in the power elites in the media (as well as government and academe).

To react to terrorism by threatening world war (and Bush as his supporters have suggested as much) is to express moral collapse.

Bruce Fein, distinguished constitutional scholar (and not an entertainment reporter), and former U.S. associate U.S. Attorney under Reagan (and not an entertainment reporter) says that terrorist organizations are no more complex than international drug rings.

Have we launched a world war against international drug rings? No? I guess that would be immoral.

dyerje
After seeing your comment I got curious and looked up the birth rates for teenagers from the 1950's onward. According to the readily available sources, teen birth rates were about 25% lower in 1996 than in 1950. And teen birth rates have been falling since 1996, so the difference is probably more extreme now.

Of course more of those births in the 1950's were in wedlock since people married younger back then.

Medved, talking with head in the sand?
In my book there is one specific issue, that is taken America down ever more so rapidly, is its evermore inhumane and horrendous war mchinery circling the globe and threatening ever other nation to bow low or else, you are dead meat! If the above not be true than lets resurrect the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and every other despot of the past. Yes, these words were spoken under God direction to set the pass forevermore for this Nation to stick to as the needle is to the pole: "Overgrown military establihsments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican liberty". Yes, set in soling rock by none other than George Washington. Yes, centuries later spoken by Dwight D. Eisenhower, also in his farewell address. So, Mr. Medved if America is to survive, no other solution is available, period, but to look back in a 180 degree mode back to true freedom for all including the American unborn children who presently have abosuletely no security to make it into this world, call America, under God and says that in God we Trust. At the moment America is trusting its guns! Not God!

Medved head in the sand as he speaks?
In my previous comments this word soling should have read: "solid". If possible, please may someone to the correction?

The great revival will come
When the Clinton class is washed out of the culture a more conserative generation will step forward. The old hippies from the 60s and woodstock are still in control of most companies and political offices. These are the Clintons, , Jane Fondas, Polesis, Reids, Kennedys, who have brought with them the free sex, drugs, and its all about me thinking. That generation effectively distroyed the family and managed to keep almost an entire race in bondage of the goverment hand outs. This nation has undergone times of a return to God when things really looked the worst. Today over 60% of black children are born out of wedlock, and whites have nothing to be proud of in this area. We have murdered over 40 million of our children by abortion, just becasue we did not want to be hampered by the responsibility. Once men return to the position God intended as head of the home, and live up to their responsibility, only then will we see real change. What we dont hear in the news is that the revival has already started as our people are turning to Christ. That is our hope..

Dear Califson
There are more of us baby boomers with you than you might imagine. As always, though, the vocal left wing activists among us have drowned us out. Of course, we let them get out of control back in the '60s (and become the face of our generation) because we were too damn lazy to take to the streets against them. Clinton was my belated wake-up call and Hollywood liberals' corruption of children became the "fire that fuelled my engine". I arrived at the "party" way too late, but I'm trying to make up for lost time. Lots of us are.

Medved is Dooom and Gloom
Michael Medved is Dr. Doom and Gloom himself. He aids and abets the extremely wealthy and influential forces that are step by step and bit by bit taking our nation from us. If that does not signify doom and gloom, I do not know what does.

Medved is not conservative. He is elitist in his positions and support. Wake up folks. He is working for the interests of those who have and are supporting the radical changes in our lives and collective way of life.

Referrence back
To the one who said the Founding Fathers weren't deist, check yourself. It is a commonly known and understand fact among EDUCATED people that George Washington did not even believe Christ existed. The greatest minds of this Enlightenment Era which spurned the American system were ALL deist, not Judeo-Christian as you so distraughtly put it. Otherwise they'd have been just like the rest of their kind.

Immoral. Sick-minded. Social unjust. Murderers. Intolerant bastards. Twisted, deprived individuals who placed their faith above the rights of humanity to that same love and happiness that they themselves desecrated.

John Adams- Brains behind the Constution
Well then George Washington was ENEDUCATED because Josephus and other Historians of the time of Jesus make reference to Jesus. Their references are not pro-Jesus but nonetheless they attest to his historicty. John Adams WAS NOT A DEIST, and had SO much more to do with the establishment of our 3 branches of government and the way this country was run. He was the "brains behind it" and he was an avowed Christian.

I think Micheal has outdone himself agin with this article though I still think it is undeniable that there has been what Rick Warren has referred to as a"corsening of our culture" over the last 50 years. In some senses with the explosion of the internet it is almost as if we are living at the avent of the printing press with it's ability to not only perpetuate good ideas and expose "evil"ieologies, and corrupting ideas...to a greater degree than ever before...while at the same time giving those who choose to do so an opportunity to perpetuate phlosophies and practices of abject iniquity to a greater degree than ever before as well.

Thomas Jefferson quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

M Sederoff
"Don't think because we have gotten away with things up to now that it means God will not demand justice."

Succinct, accurate and dead bang truth, M. Sederoff! Thank You!

For when they least expect it [Jesus' return] - EXPECT IT. They will be caught in their beds; the fields and sundry locations. One will be taken; one will be left. Which do you think will be left? The righteous will be the one removed and the unrighteous will be gnashing their teeth in eternal damnation! (paraphrasing, of course - don't have time to look up the passages at the moment.)

Medved is delusional on this argument!!!!!

Look Around You, Medved...
Medved, I can look around my middle class neighborhood and see the collapse of America. The Lesbians across the street had someone who overdosed and died shortly after they moved in. Now one of them is living with a guy and her bull dyke girlfriend sneaks over occasionally when he's gone.
The homo male couple down the street had a break in at their house and caused several others after chicken hawking the high school.
Yeah, how did I learn to be a woman? I was raised by a WOMAN and a MAN NOT TWO HOMO DADDIES!
There are several other shack up couples in the neighborhood who have loud parties and contribute nothing but instability.
We're a nation of adulterers and most people in their 2nd or 3rd marriages aren't any happier than they were the first time. Their kids are destroyed by their promiscuity.
Yeah, Medved, and I live in conservative Cobb County Georgia. You've really got blinders on.
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