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Wednesday, November 14, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Propaganda, and Perspective, on "American Empire"
by Michael Medved
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In 1959, the hilarious Peter Sellers comedy “The Mouse That Roared” charmed audiences around the world by mocking America’s long-standing reputation for prodigious generosity – especially to nations who’ve fought the United States and lost. The movie (based on a droll and sprightly novel by Leonard Wibberley) tells the story of the fictional Duchy of Grand Fenwick that decides to cope with imminent financial collapse by declaring war on the U.S. The Grand Duchess and her prime minister (both played by Sellers) unleash the full might of a Fenwickian expeditionary force for an invasion of New York City, storming Manhattan with a twenty-man army equipped with medieval armor and bows and arrows. The scheming Europeans naturally plan in advance for a speedy, abject surrender, after which they expect to benefit from the bountiful foreign aid and reconstruction assistance that America traditionally lavishes on its beaten foes.

This good-natured spoof connected with moviegoers of the era precisely because they recognized elements of truth in its portrayal of America’s bounteous naïveté – satirizing a notorious national instinct to spread Yankee wealth even to obscure, powerless and hostile nations that looked on the United States with ill-disguised contempt. Ironically, the film appeared in the midst of the Cold War period regularly characterized by revisionist historians (William Appleman Williams, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky and many more) as the very height of U.S. arrogance and imperialism, when the American colossus needlessly menaced the appropriately frightened Soviet Union and ruthlessly imposed its will on allies and unaligned alike.

Critics of the United States and its role in the world prefer to argue their point of view by focusing on specific instances of American bullying or brutality, recounting their favorite horror stories from Indonesia or Nicaragua, Vietnam or Chile, the Philippines or Iraq – or any of two dozen other places around the globe where American intervention or involvement imperfectly exemplified the nation’s self-professed high ideals. These arguments range over two centuries of history to yield abundant examples of American folly, recklessness, even cruelty, but hardly justify film-maker Michael Moore’s proclamation that the United States constitutes an “Evil Empire” resembling the mass-murdering excesses of the old Soviet Union. (“One Evil Empire down and one more to go,” the portly provocateur declares on camera in his little-seen, America-bashing 1998 documentary, “The Big One.”) The leftist insistence on concentrating on individual examples of U.S. “perfidy” emphasizes details over destiny, arcane disputes over isolated, long-ago blunders above big picture considerations of the overall impact of U.S. policy. Yes, it’s possible to argue that the United States (and our British allies) harmed democratic development (and our own long-term interests) by undermining the leftist Mossadegh government in Iran in 1953, but that doesn’t justify (or even explain) the current Iranian designation of the U.S. as “The Great Satan” or the cheering crowds at Teheran rallies who lustily chant “Death to America!” In the same sense, skeptical military historians might dismiss General George Washington as an inept tactician and inferior leader of men who lost nearly every battle he fought, without acknowledging that after eight years he won a seemingly impossible victory against the world’s greatest power.

Those who insist on slandering the United States seek ugly close-ups of twisted trees but won’t step back to consider the forest. They lack perspective, and ignore context. They refer to dwell on the harsh impact of specific American initiatives or policies, without acknowledging the Republic’s undeniably benevolent and beneficial impact on the world at large during every era in our history.

ALLIGNMENT WITH AMERICA BENEFITS, RATHER THAN BURDENS, THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD

The strongest, most direct evidence against the indictment of the Untied States as a destructive, callous imperial power comes from a consideration of the progress of those nations most closely involved with the United States. In the long-term, the states and peoples who aligned themselves with America in world affairs, and even those nations that experienced lengthy American occupations, prospered economically and developed functioning democratic institutions. The phrase “The Yanks are Coming! The Yanks are Coming!” (featured in George M. Cohan’s stirring World War I rabble-rouser “Over There”) most often signaled a nation’s immediate liberation and never meant its long-term destruction or conquest. Each national story boasts its own distinctive features but the experience of America’s Western European allies, as well as our one-time enemies in Germany, Italy and Japan, indicates that inclusion in the U.S. sphere of influence helped provide protection, prosperity, and the chance for flourishing democracies. In divided nations, the stark contrast between the pro-American segment and the anti-American counterpart offers unequivocal indication that connection with the United States provided a blessing, not a curse. The US surely deserves credit for the vastly more fortunate circumstances of South Korea over North Korea, for the relative freedom and prosperity of the former West Germany compared to East Germany, and even the superior development and free institutions in small, pro-Western Chinese enclaves (Taiwan, Hong Kong) compared to mainland China.

Moreover, whenever a developing state has realigned from an anti-American position to a policy of cooperation and commercial connection with the United States, these nations gained enormous benefits – as with all the former states of the Soviet sphere (“Warsaw Pact”) in Eastern Europe, where the Baltic republics, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and most other nations entered periods of dramatic growth and democratization after the collapse of the Russian Empire. By the same token, nations that shifted from affiliation with the West to a posture of anti-Americanism (Cuba in 1959, Iran in 1979) make the switch at their own enormous long-term detriment. It’s far more than a matter of US power rewarding our friends and punishing our enemies: the record in every corner of the world suggests that the incorporation of American ideas of self-government and free markets leads to higher standards of living and more stable free institutions. While Communists and Third World revolutionaries might denounce nations within America’s sphere of influence as “puppets” or “satellite regimes,” the tragic experience of South Vietnam (and the neighboring states in Laos and Cambodia) stands as a rare example of societies suffering long term negative consequences for that status. The most important argument for continued U.S. involvement in Iraq hinges on the importance of preventing the struggling Iraqi government from becoming a second exception.

With all the danger and deprivation in the Middle East, the most wretched conditions in today’s world still occur almost entirely in sub-Saharan Africa, where impoverished and violence-ridden nations complain far more frequently of too little US involvement than they do of too much. The Clinton administration drew widespread criticism for its handling of the genocidal conflict in Rwanda: though no one could blame the United States for provoking the slaughter, America earned ferocious denunciation for its failure to intervene.

AMERICAN INTERVENTIONS GENERALLY AMOUNT TO TEMPORARY MISSIONS RATHER THAN PERMANENT CONQUESTS

In 1942, the historian Rupert Emerson declared: “With the exception of the brief period of imperialist activity at the time of the Spanish American war, the American people have shown a deep repugnance to both the conquest of distant lands and the assumption of rule over alien peoples.”

In the 65 eventful years since Emerson’s observation, this “deep repugnance” remains a prominent feature of American public opinion and has helped to shape foreign policy. The bloody (and seemingly innumerable) foreign wars of the Twentieth Century saw millions upon millions of American troops deployed to every corner of the globe but for the most part they came home at the earliest opportunity. President Wilson dispatched more than two-million American soldiers to France to win World War I, but in less than two years they had all left the Old World behind. The sixty year presence of American forces in Europe and Japan following the Second World War has not only decreased dramatically in size since the demise of the Soviet threat but continues today at the insistence of the host countries. Aside from the economic benefits to local economies from the numerous American bases, US troops (for better or worse) provide a security shield that has allowed our European allies to scrimp on defense spending, with military resources in no way commensurate with their economic or political power. In any event, not even the most implacable anti-American could describe today’s robust and re-united Germany as a restive, captive society, crushed by Yankee imperialism because of the ongoing presence of the US military on its soil. By the same token, the 29,000 American troops who remain in South Korea for defensive purposes some 54 years after the armistice with the North hardly constitute an occupation force or have prevented the nation’s dazzling prosperity and democratization.

These long-term military assignments represent prominent exceptions to the general American rule of quick, short-term interventions rather than permanent conquests. In 1848, victorious troops marched into Mexico City after the crushing defeat of that nation’s vaunted military machine. “Jingos” at home demanded the annexation of all of Mexico, but instead President Polk accepted a treaty that added to the nation the sparsely populated territory of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah (Texas had achieved its own independence from Mexico eleven years before). Rather than simply imposing its will on a conquered neighbor, the U.S. agreed to assume Mexico’s burdensome national debt of $3.25 million and to pay the government a surprisingly lavish sum of $15 million more. After the settlement, Washington made no attempt to maintain American forces or bases on Mexican soil.

The same pattern applied almost everywhere – with American withdrawal following even the bloodiest, most punishing military struggles. In “Dangerous Nation,” Robert Kagan discerns this same impatience in the Reconstruction of the American South after the War Between the States. In our nation’s first exercise in “Nation Building,” the federal government ultimately failed because it allotted only 11 years before withdrawing Union troops (as part of the compromise that settled the disputed election of 1876) and abandoning the ambitious effort to guarantee justice and security for former slaves. This limited appetite for occupation and rebuilding has bedeviled post-war policies far more than any desire for permanent presence, leading to problematic and truncated missions in conflicts ranging from the Barbary Wars of 1805 to the First Gulf War and the Somali intervention of the 1990’s. Osama bin Laden pointed to America’s humiliation in Somalia (where 18 mutilated soldiers led to a hasty American withdrawal) as one of the incidents that led him to characterize the United States as a “paper tiger” with no staying power. Bin Laden also mentioned the departure from Lebanon in 1983 after the suicide bombing that killed 261 Marines, and particularly noted the way that public impatience and exhaustion brought about the retreat from Vietnam. Ironically, by focusing on the American penchant for quick withdrawals from the world’s hot spots, our primary terrorist adversary undermined his own characterization of the United States as a ruthless imperialist power.

Even the long-standing and often bloody US mission to the Philippines culminated in American decisions to forego any imperial role and resulted in Filipino independence and (flawed) democracy. The United States seized the former Spanish colony with little difficulty at the outset of the Spanish American War, but then suppressed a stubborn nationalist insurrection (1898-1902) that killed more than 4,000 American troops and some 200,000 Filipinos. This nightmare didn’t stop the American authorities from setting up an elected legislative assembly five years later, with a US-style bicameral legislature by 1916. In 1935, the Philippines achieved full internal self-government and, after a brutal Japanese occupation during the War, achieved complete independence (together with massive US reconstruction aid) in 1945. The determination to renounce any colonial role in the Philippines, even after massive sacrifices over the course of nearly a half century, hardly characterizes a typically imperialist approach.

As to the territories added by the United States as part of its ongoing enlargement of its boundaries, none of these acquisitions followed the familiar colonial pattern of invasion and subjugation of hostile native populations. In all cases, American expansion involved annexing or negotiating for sparsely populated tracts of land in which settlers from the U.S. had already established flourishing communities. Before acquiring West Florida from Spain, or Oregon and Washington from Great Britain, or California, Texas and the Southwest from Mexico, U.S. citizens had already rushed into these territories and to some extent Americanized them. More than 30,000 Americans had settled in Texas with the permission of the Spanish colonial and Mexican governments, and by 1835 they outnumbered their Mexican neighbors by at least eight to one. Even the annexation of Hawaii amounted to the confirmation, rather than the beginning, of US domination. American traders and whalers played a prominent role in the islands as early as the 1780’s, and the arrival of US missionaries in the 1820’s led to the rapid spread of Christianity, literacy, and civil institutions. As early as 1854, the native Hawaiian government formally applied to Congress for admission to the Union as an American state – bypassing the normal territorial phase. Because the Hawaiians insisted on joining the Republic as a free state, the slave-holding South blocked their bid for instant statehood. Some thirty years later, Robert Kagan writes, “Hawaii had become a virtual ‘economic colony’ of the United States. Hawaiian products sold to the United States, mostly sugar, constituted 99 percent of all the islands’ exports, while the Untied States supplied three-fourths of all Hawaii’s imports. American-born settlers, the sons and daughters of missionaries and whalers, had over the years become a dominant economic and political force on the islands. Over time the ‘American’ and other influential light-skinned merchants in Hawaii agitated for political rights and a political system more closely attuned to their political and economic interests.” This led to an elected legislature, the decline of the monarchy, the establishment of a republic in 1894, territorial status in 1900, and statehood in 1959. As in the other permanent additions to US territory, it wasn’t invading armies that made Hawaii part of the nation, but independent-minded immigrants and settlers acting for their own advancement, without governmental sponsorship or sanction, and establishing the American communities that made United States acquisition not only possible, but inevitable.

DEMOCRATIC IDEALS, NOT LUST FOR WORLD DOMINANCE, MOTIVATED THE GROWTH OF AMERICAN POWER

The notion of America as liberator of the world animated the Republic and its politics long before the globe-girdling wars of the Twentieth Century. As early as 1838, a Jacksonian newspaper called “The Democratic Review” published a soaring description of America’s destined international role that might bring a blush to the cheek of even the most visionary neo-con:

“The far-reaching, the boundless future will be the era of American greatness. In its magnificent domain of space and time, the nation of many nations is destined to manifest to mankind the excellence of divine principles: to establish on earth the noblest temple ever dedicated to the worship of the Most High – the Sacred and the True. Its floor shall be a hemisphere – its roof the firmament of the star-studded heavens – and its congregation the Union of many Republics, comprising hundreds of happy millions, calling and owning no man master, but governed by God’s natural and moral law of equality, the law of brotherhood – of ‘peace and goodwill among men.’”

Otto von Bismarck might boast of building his German Reich on the basis of “blood and iron,” but the United States consistently viewed its international mission in deeply Christian, messianic terms. After deciding on an ongoing American role in the Philippines, President William McKinley granted a White House interview to the General Missionary Committee of the Methodist Episcopal Church. “I walked the floor of the White House night after night until midnight,” the President revealed, “and I am not ashamed to tell you, gentlemen, that I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way – I don’t how it was but it came… that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift them and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died. And then I went to bed, and went to sleep, and slept soundly, and the next morning I sent for the chief engineer of the War Department and I told him to put the Philippines on the map of the United States and there they are, and there they will stay while I am President!”

One can scoff at such naïveté and sentimentality, just as many Americans scoffed at the soaring rhetoric of the second Bush inaugural with its promise to eliminate tyranny and promote democracy around the world. Nevertheless, such ideals about the U.S. obligation to less fortunate peoples have always played a role in shaping American policy and mobilizing the public support to permit its implementation. The sincerely held notion of American mission helps to explain the apparent contributions in the U.S. approach to its role in the world: we’re reluctant and embarrassed to pursue raw power for its own sake, but we can be shockingly aggressive, even militant when it comes to promoting democracy, free markets, and Christianity.

Of course, the pursuit of such ideals can also bring financial benefits that enrich the Republic and its populace. In a fascinating new book called “Day of Empire,” Professor Amy Chua of Yale Law School, analyzes the emergences of a succession of “hyper-powers,” each of which dominated the globe in its own era. Concerning the Untied States she writes: “America built its world dominance not through conquest but commerce….America for most of the nineteenth century ‘contented itself with carving out….(an) ‘empire of the seas’- an informal empire based on trade and influence…Even today, as John Steele Gordon writes, “if the world is becoming rapidly Americanized as once it became Romanized, the reason lies not in our weapons, but in the fact that others want what we have and are willing, often eager, to adopt our ways in order to have them too.”

While the “soft power” of US culture and corporations ultimately wields more influence that our military strength, America has pursued numerous “humanitarian” interventions over the centuries that in no way serve either our financial and strategic self-interest. The recent military missions in Haiti, Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo brought scant reward to the United States while managing, with varying degrees of success, to save lives. Nearly a century earlier, the Boxer uprising shook China and, as Max Boot writes, “America joined in a multinational expedition to rescue the besieged legations in Peking. While the Europeans and Japanese participants were determined to carve out their own spheres of influence in China, the United States pointedly committed itself to maintaining free trade for all – the Open Door.”

Unlike other dominant powers in world history, the United States today remains less focused on enhancing its own sway than on promoting the stability and institutions that have allowed it to flourish. As Amy Chua concludes: “Even when the United States invades and occupies other countries, the goal today is never annexation but, at least ostensibly, an eventual military withdrawal, leaving behind a constitutional (and hopefully pro-American) democracy.”

COLD WAR CONTEXT

America’s good intentions do not necessarily produce good results. Even in the noble and necessary struggle against Nazism in World War II, US troops proved themselves capable of appalling cruelty. As Stanford professor Norman Naimark recently noted in the Weekly Standard (November 12, 2007): “Some five million Germans died during World War II, including 1.8 million civilians. Allied bombing campaigns, including the firebombing of Dresden and Hamburg, destroyed German cities and killed hundreds of thousands of their inhabitants, among them 75,000 children under 14….Many thousands of Germans starved to death, especially in the American Rheinwiesen lager (Rhine Meadow camps); others were beaten and horribly tortured. American soldiers sometimes shot Germans, usually SS and other uniformed Nazis, where they were found, and executed others without trial in detention camps. No American (or German) should have any illusions about the violence carried out by GI’s and their officers against disarmed and interned German soldiers, policemen, and even civilians at the end of the war. The “greatest generation” committed crimes against captured Germans that make Abu Ghraib look like child’s play.”

Naimark readily concedes, however, that it makes no sense to consider such atrocities outside the context of the wider war, just as it makes no sense to condemn the US atom bombs against Hiroshima and Nagasaki without reference to their ultimate life-saving role for both Americans and Japanese (who otherwise would have perished by the millions in a fight-to-the-death defense against a conventional invasion of the home islands).

In the same way, it’s impossible to indict America for its vigorous and sometimes overweening international role in the period 1945-1989 without consideration of the multi-generational, world-wide struggle against the aggressive, unspeakably brutal force of world wide Communism. In his Nobel Prize Lecture of 2005, Sir Harold Pinter smears the United States for causing “hundreds of thousands of deaths” with its support for “right wing military dictatorship” in “Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile.” At no point, however, does Pinter remind his listeners that every one of the “dictatorships” he mentioned played a role in the larger struggle against the Soviet Union and its repeatedly announced intentions (“We will bury you” warned Nikita Khrushchev) to destroy the United States and its way of life. America-bashers may insist that the Russian Empire never constituted a real threat to the west, and the militant anti-Communists merely conjured up the specter of the Red Menace in order to exploit fear in the service of their own power-mad ends, but the corpses piled high in much of Europe, Asia and Latin America provide unimpeachable evidence to the contrary. “The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression,” the 1997 compilation of research edited by French academician Stephane Courtois, counts some 100 million victims of communist murder during the Twentieth Century. This record, largely ignored by too many contemporary Americans, may not excuse every American misdeed of the Cold War period, but it can certainly help to explain them.

Chile, for example, usually constitutes a favorite demonstration of American perfidy for those who seek to discredit the United States. In 1970, Dr. Salvador Allende became the world’s first democratically elected Marxist President and immediately launched a radical program of nationalization, wealth distribution, and social reform. The nation faced dire and increasingly violent divisions even before the CIA-directed coup in 1973, with more moderate Chileans fearing the imminent imposition of an unshakable, implacable Castro style dictatorship. Instead, Chile endured 17 years of authoritarian, right-wing, pro-American dictatorship from General Augusto Pinochet, with ruthless persecution of suspected dissidents combined with audacious free-market reforms. For all his brutality, Pinochet succeeded in creating the most dynamic economy in Latin America and under American pressure he allowed a referendum on his own rule in 1988, then gave up power altogether less than two years later. Today Chile continues to benefit from a growing economy and stable democratic institutions, with a freely elected socialist President. While the international left regularly and repeatedly blames the United States for installing Pinochet, America gets no credit for its decisive role in his removal. In the same way, the critics assault the US for backing the Filipino strongman Ferdinand Marcos, but never praise American policy makers for securing his peaceful removal and supporting the more democratically-minded “People Power” revolution of Corazon Aquino.

Above all, those who concentrate on Cold War excesses of US foreign policy avoid the most significant point of them all: the strategies and sacrifices, doctrines and deceptions employed by the United States resulted in the most remarkable victory in our history, with nearly 500 million human beings liberated from Stalinist tyranny. The results everywhere, in terms of vastly improved living standards and fresh blessings of freedom, should speak for themselves.

So should the restraint, modesty and generosity of the USA in responding to the collapse of its long-time Soviet rival. With America for the first-time enjoying matchless power in a suddenly uni-polar world, the new “hyper-power” made no attempt to abuse its standing. As Amy Chua writes: “Here was a society with unthinkable destructive capacity, facing no countervailing power. Yet it seemed to go without saying that the Untied States would not use its unrivaled force for territorial expansion or other aggressive imperialist ends…. When it came to U.S. military might, the most controversial issues were whether the United States should intervene abroad for purely humanitarian reasons (as in Kosovo or Rwanda) and what America should do with its ‘peace dividend,’ the billions of dollars the United States would no longer be spending on its military.”

The best way to put America’s place in the world in proper context is to call to mind a famous sequence from the most beloved Hollywood movie of them all. In “It’s a Wonderful Life,” small town banker George Bailey (Jimmy Stewart) contemplates a Christmas Eve suicide before guardian angel Clarence provides the ultimate life-affirming vision. He provides the disheartened hero with a dark, dysfunctional view of the town of Bedford Falls if he’d never drawn breath, as the community would have taken shape without his good deeds and benevolent influence. With that sharper perspective, George can go home to his loving family to celebrate the holiday with gratitude and joy.

Those who condemn the United States should perform a thought experiment involving a global “Bedford Falls Vision.” Imagine that the United States had never become a world power, or never existed at all. Would the ideals of democracy and free markets wield the same power in the world? Would murderous dictatorships have claimed more victims – or fewer? Would the community of nations strain under the lash of Nazism, or Communism, or some vicious combination of both? Would multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy flourish anywhere on earth without inspiration from the ground-breaking example of the USA? Would the threat of jihadist violence and resurgent Islamic fundamentalist menace humanity more grievously, or not at all?

No one can provide definitive, authoritative answers to such hypotheticals, but merely confronting the questions should help put the American role in more complete context. As George Bailey’s view of an alternate reality convinced him “It’s a Wonderful Life,” even the briefest contemplation of a world without America should persuade us that “It’s a Wonderful Nation” – in fact, the Republic rightly recognized as the Greatest Nation on God’s Green Earth.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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All of the lefties decry us
interfering in Iran to overthrow Mossadegh or in Chile to overthrown Allende but never a word is said about the interference by the Russians in getting these people installed in the first place.

Of course, that is the goal of the lefties anyway; cheering on the Russians while decrying everything the U.S. does.

Now the case in the Philippines is an example of "bad" U.S. policy and a broken "deal" by the U.S.

boutte
My parents survived the ravages of both Naziism and Communism during and after WW2 before they emigrated as refugees to this country. They and I thank God that most Americans are not selfish, cynical (and intellectually dishonest) revisionists such as yourself. FYI: most East Europeans consider your ilk with contempt. Perhaps 10 years in one of Stalin's gulags would knock some sense into you, but I doubt it.

To the Left, the wrong side won
The hostility of the Left to the U.S. is mostly based on their philosophical AND emotional antipathy to capitalism, a point Mr. Medved doesn't stress enough.

Throughout the 20th century, the left-wing intelligentsia assumed the world, including America, was marching inexorably toward some form of democratic socialism. Many of them would admit the USSR was nasty, but they always assumed it would "mellow" and become more democratic over time too. Even those American Leftists who were proud of their country assumed it would go socialist someday.

The collapse of the Communist bloc at the end of the Cold War, and the rush to embrace free market reforms even in such previously socialist stalwarts as India and China, has totally disoriented the Left. It just sticks in their craw. And their fury has turned on America for having helped to bring about a more, rather than less, capitalist world. They will NEVER forgive America for the destruction of their socialist dream.

IIRC, in the Epilogue to Howard Zinn's book "A People's History of the United States," Zinn (who is 75) states that he will go to his grave believing in the rightness of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." He now knows he's going to die with his lifelong dream unrealized. That's a shattering thought, and accounts for a lot of the emotional hostility the Left has toward America.

Wouldn't it be wonderful...
...if we could go just one forum without a lengthy, multi-paragraph diatribe about the failings of America that reads as if it were written by Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky only to find out at the end it was written by (arguably) a fellow "Man of the Right"?

Ron Paul is to politics what Scientologists are to religion.

How can any Republican candidate or his followers win an election or recruit believers when they sound and talk no differently than the most obnoxious "Weather Underground" activists of the 60s and 70s?

buzzkat
"Perhaps 10 years in one of Stalin's gulags would knock some sense into you, but I doubt it. "

Is this the we are not as bad as Stalin argument?

But what I wanted to say...
Is that America's "imperialism" was never kept in check by the presence of a counter-balance like the Soviet Union or 1990s France or Russia today.

Amazing how many Americans believe that as well. That America as the only unchecked superpower will inevitably lead to our being an empire.

As other writers have pointed out, nothing like America has ever existed before in history.

No other country has ever had this kind of military and economic power and then proceeded to NOT use it to seize territory and build empire.

The Soviets, Britain, France, Rome all had similar capability and did not hestitate to use it to seize and control other countries.

We did it once. And even as we did that we cleared malarial swamps and vaccinated the population, saving the lives of many, many more than died in our ill-advised occupation there. We brought schools and roads and railroads and many aspects of self government to the Phillipines.

I wish I could recall his name, but there was a famous Filipino resistance fighter (against us) in the 1930s who admitted that although he desired independence from America, even he would not say that we were unfair or unjust in the administering of those possessions.

I believe another resistance fighter put it more succinctly: "Damn the Americans! Why don't they tyrannize us more!"

Apparently, he was finding it a bit difficult to recruit...

Jealousy & Envy
The hatred of the United States by many on the Left can be summed up in those two words.

One of the earmarks of the Left is a dislike for competition. They even make kids stop keeping score at soccer games. But the natural human impulse to compete with one another cannot be suppressed for long, and children secretly keep score, even when forbidden by the prunes.

People who hate competition still have natural competitive feelings, but because they don't express them in a healthy manner, these feelings turn into jealousy and envy, leading to bitterness and resentment. Instead of striving to acheive themselves, these people deal with these negative feelings by trying to stop others from excelling.

Those who embrace their competitive nature will allow their competitive feelings to inspire and motivate them, and spur them on to greater acheivements. In this way, POSITIVE competition can lead to more and more personal excellence.

It is interesting to me that men tend to be conservatives, AND they tend to be positive and well-adjusted competitors. Women, on the other hand, have a tendancy to be liberals, and also tend to hate competitiion. In addition to this, when women compete, they tend to be catty and mean, allowing the conflict to become personal. Men (conservatives), on the other hand, can compete all day long, and in fact express it openly and verbally, yet at the end of the day they slap each other on the back and go have a beer together.

The Left needs to grow up and realize that just because the United States is a great country does not mean that other countrys can't be great as well. Instead of dragging this country down, they should use our successes for inspiration at the acheivements that can be accomplished.

The true conservative wants to see others have the same successes that they have acheived, so they can be spurred on to even greater glory.

Boutte
As long as you continue to live in this country, your protestations of imperialism and American power lust have absolutely no credibility.

You pay taxes to this imperialistic nation that so unjustly projects its power all over the world. As long as that is the case, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

And dont give me the old standby argument that you remain here to contribute to changing the country for the better. You stated that this nation has been imperialistic since its founding, so you cant be so arrogant as to believe you will change it for the better during your short lifetime.

So I feel the need to ask: why are you still living here? Why do you fund this imperialistic nation with your tax dollars? Why do you spend your money within this economy? I'll tell you why: because you lack the courage of your supposed convictions. If you were as outraged as you say, you would be living in Canada. They love American transplants.

Forgive me, but I have little respect for people who enjoy the freedom and liberty of this nation while lamenting adnauseum to the rest of us, just how vile and imperialistic we are.



Moutain Rose
You are absolutely correct when you say jealousy and envy are essentially what the left is all about. But I think it goes far deeper than not liking competition.

Most of my life I've been trying to figure out how the Left thinks and why they think that way. I've finally figured it out but the truth is too politically incorrect to utter it. All hell breaks lose every time I mention it.

Hint: it actually relates to age-old ethnic rivalries.

The Left
really loves America and its values too. Both are important.

Moutain Rose
Yes, women tend to be more "liberal" but more specifically it us SINGLE women. Most married women vote Republican but the Left has been very effective in convincing single women to hate men and hate their conservative value system in the process.

The Left operates on promoted hatred (jealousy and envy) between groups. The Left antagonizes and manipulates the sitaution to promote friction between man and women, black and white, rich and poor, homosexual and straight. The Left generates energy from this friction. The Left needs the hate and discontent of others in order to gain money, power, and influence. It is the ultimate con game and it has been going on for centuries.

Helping
"The most important argument for continued U.S. involvement in Iraq hinges on the importance of preventing the struggling Iraqi government from becoming a second exception."

Helping Iraq is good, but making war on their friends is bad, i.e.. Iran. It seems more likely that Halliberrton and comp. are more interested in helping themselves into our pockets. They import bottled water at tax payer expense and charge us $10.99.

Boutte
Ron Paul is a shill for Shrillary.

He is performing the function of Ross Perot, trying to draw the votes of fools away from true conservative candidates thereby allowing the Shrillster to win.

Please stop being fooled by this nutjob! Vote for someone who can make this country better instead of throwing away your vote.

Taft
Sorry, sincere liberals may love America but ultimately the Left is owned and controlled by radical revolutionaries who only seek to tear down the traditional values system upon which American is founded.

It is similiar to the French Revolution and, like the French Revolution, nothing good will really come of it, just a lot of destruction and aggravation.

Mountain Rose
Great comments - especially "The Left needs to grow up and realize that just because the United States is a great country does not mean that other countrys can't be great as well."

This also sums up the economic attitude of the Left. They believe the economic pie is a fixed size, and if one person gets a large piece of it, then it lessens the amount others can then take of the pie. They don't realize that the pie continues to grow as needed, and anyone can take as large a piece of the pie they want and it doesn't affect the amount others can take as well.

That's the foundation of the "from each according to his means, to each according to his need" argument. They feel (and I know this because my sister is one who believes it) that, for example, since Bill Gates makes so much money, it deprives people from making money. She feels that if he makes $100 million per year, then that is $100 million that other people can't make. She doesn't understand that what he's done over the years has created an industry that employes hundreds of thousands of people and has created billions in wealth.

They just don't get that capitalism flat out works. It may not be the most perfect system to drive innovation and productivity, but it's the best we've come up with so far.

Liberius
Who fought to stop Mukasy? It wasn't the right. Values are being railroaded from our American Spirit.

ex-infantry
If Bill Gates makes a cool mil a year (probably much more, I suspect), then he has more money to invest and create more jobs.

When someone like Gates is rewarded for creating a business that not only makes money, but changes our lives for the better, then others are inspired to create as well.

It is interesting that throughout human history we advanced very little technologically, until we entered this era of freedom. Since the United States arrived on the scene, the room to create has stimulated remarkable acheivement.

When people are punished for acheivement, then who will be willing to stick their head above the pig-pile?

Sometimes I look at these guys that invent companies that change the world in their garages, and I wish I had that je ne se pas that makes them so innovative and courageous.

I don't have the same admiration for some of these MBA CEOs, however, who are hired guns, because I think that second-generation corporate culture tends to stiffle freedom and innovation, like little kingdoms.

Taft, I agree with you last post
I only disagreed with your 9:57 post saying that the "Left really loves America". So what's your point?

Left Bashing
It seems that instead of some vague notion about what different sides believe in, we could get down to the serious problems at hand and go forward with our best tools, knowledge and determination, with a good dose of pride in our heritage in values. Our health care system is doing us in and we need real answers and solutions.

Taft, you ignore the value of labels
We have 2 basically different perspectives: Left and Right. They DO exist.

Yes, we have serious problems regarding health case affordability. I submit the Left is primarily to blame because the Left promoted unrestrained frivilous lawsuits that have pumped up health care costs. Also, very liberal govt programs have drived up costs because they are so suspectible to fraud and it encourages people to be lazy and not get their own insurance.

It it clear to me that quality of care and facilities deminish in a socialized system. Americans are the innovators of most advancement in medical technology and the reason is that we have a more free-enterprise based system (because of our Rightest traditions).

Going Left is never the good answer.

SteveL
"IIRC, in the Epilogue to Howard Zinn's book "A People's History of the United States," Zinn (who is 75) states that he will go to his grave believing in the rightness of 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.'"

At least he won't be lonely. Millions of people have gone to their graves with that phrase ringing in their ear. That, or the split second of ringing from the pistol shot administered to the back of their head because they DIDN'T believe in that slogan.

No, Zinn won't be lonely. I don't think he'll need to worry about freezing temperatures either...

folks
This is nothing but the next chapter in Medved’s whitewash campaign. There is a point buried in the and yes, if you have to deal with someone, you usually get the best deal from the US. But enough is enough. I can’t imagine what the next installment will offer.

MikeR
Medved speaks truthfully. Even in America's darkest days we have been more righteous than other nations. Everything must be judged in historical context.

Please name a country that you think has behaved more honorably than the USA.

knight
While I am opposed to AIPAC and opposed to interventionist foreign policy, Medved speaks correctly on judging the moral standing of America, all things considered.

you know
I really don’t understand this dislike of Zinn. In his “Peoples History” book, he shows very meticulous research. I’ve never found any errors. As far as his integrity is concerned, he freely admits his bias and offers acceptance of the bias shown in others’ works. Furthermore, he states plainly that his work is not an incitement or intended to make America look bad. He is also a veteran of WWII bomber missions. I don’t agree with his socialist politics, but that does not make what he wrote any less true.

Liberius
I agree and therefore acknowledge his point, but my conscience doesn’t bother me so I don’t need it massaged by Medved. If something is bad, then say it is bad. I know full well it could have been worse or others did worse, but so what? Medved is doing the same as the blame America crowd an I have no intention of agreeing with either.

Liberius
"It it clear to me that quality of care and facilities deminish in a socialized system. Americans are the innovators of most advancement in medical technology and the reason is that we have a more free-enterprise based system (because of our Rightest traditions)."

zit is very clear to me that you have no clue what you are talking about.

"Going Left is never the good answer."

Let's see it won WWII, the cold war, put a man on the moon and made us the most prosperous nation in the world. The right only seems to set those accomplishments back.

Knight_of_baawa
Yep, good ole' TJ said that. Or wrote it at least.

I tell you, if I were living back then and Europe was this confused mess of Hapsburgs and Hohenzollerns and British and French and Spainiards constantly in a state of war, with the Dutch thrown in too for good measure, I'd be saying much the same thing about entangling alliances.

Of course, that was the 18th Century. TJ's opinion was valid for many years after that.

But these days it is another of our Founder's statements that rings truer to my ears.

"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will hang seperately."

That was Benjamin Franklin. A man who spent much of his time during the Revolutionary War trying desperately to form an entangling alliance with France so that this enterprise would not perish from the earth.

Yes, today you could argue that WE are the "France" of our age and that Ben Franklins from other countries are often at our door with hats extended.

In this day and age, it is encumbent upon people of like minds and values of law and free commerce and the rights of man to stand together against those who hold none of those traits.

This isn't the 18th Century. Not even the 18th Century was the 18th you seem to think it was.

off the mark
The US has always been a split between the incredibly positive, such as a Constitution which was ahead of its time and a great influence for advancement in the world, and the bad, usually involving the sense that people who are different than us don't have to count as with slavery the Indians and so forth.

Any story that sees the US as being driven primarily by a desire for empire rather misses the point. In fact as a groundbreaking democracy we were pretty much the first country for whom empire was a losing proposition because it meant letting other people vote in our elections.

But dismissing the other tendency is silly as well. The Mouse that Roared is a funny satire of the Marshall plan, not some amorphous American habit. And the Marshall plan was not something that was passed with acclaim, but a risky move that is not likely to be repeated in the future. The Marshall Plan required increasing taxes. We went into this war in Iraq with tax cuts despite deficits. The Marshall plan and the Iraq war are not part of the same trends of American character.

The Great Debate On This Issue

Donahue
You are very confused if you think that Leftism deserves any credit for WWII, man on the moon etc.

Conservative minded troops fought in the war and invented the things that elevated us. The Right is about building up and the Left is about tearing down.

FDR's leftist policies elongated the Great Depression all the way up to WWII. Otherwise, it would have died out naturally within 5 years like all recessions before it. It would have been over by 1934 but FDR made it go until '41 or '42.

Konop: Copy & paste from the blog?

So here's my "copied and pasted" response from the blog... :-)

Watched the video AGAIN just to be sure that what I heard paul say the first time was really what I heard him say.

If, by now, you and the paulists still deny that paul blames America for 9-11, then you are ALL as delusional as he, which if course, is probably why you and the paulists back him.

It’s all too obvious that paul could NOT answer O’Reilly’s questions…as he spins off to something else, and answers questions with a question… A question is not an answer!

paul gets more outrageous and delusional each time he speaks publicly.


Liberius: Donahue IS very confused

and quite delusional.

He writes for huffpuff, so that should give you a clue! LOL

Trying to have an intelligent debate with him is like trying to have an intelligent debate with a brick wall....


No wait, you'd have a much better chance of actually having an intelligent debate WITH A BRICK WALL...






Japan
Boutte:

The US has never been in Japan to protect Japan, even in the cold war days, the majority of US troops were thousands of miles away in Okinawa (where most of the US military in Japan remains today) not in Hokkaido or northern Honshu near the actual threat--that being the USSR.

Japan was expected to do much of the heavy fighting in case of a Soviet invasion as part of a general Soviet offensive worldwide--the Americans would be busy elsewhere.

Today, American forces are there to project power into the region just as it has always been. They are there in case a conflict happens in Korea or in the Taiwan Strait, not to protect Japan.

Why does anyone take Medved seriously? The US left Taiwan to rot in 1949 and support by the US was to pursue its own interest not because of its good will toward Taiwan--which can be seen as fickle at best and HK's status today had little to do with the US, where does he come up with that? US polices toward the ROK after 1948 were directly responsible for Kim's invasion in 1950. Yes, you shouldn't blame the US for everything under the sun, but you shouldn't sugarcoat it as some city on the hill like Medved does either.

And Bob:

Unless you expect us to overthrow the government, support of the government via taxes no matter how distasteful is not exactly an act of free will. I suppose next will be the infantile retort of "leave then" right?


for Citizen Carrier
Citizen Carrier asks: "How can any Republican candidate or his followers win an election or recruit believers when they sound and talk no differently than the most obnoxious 'Weather Underground' activists of the 60s and 70s?"

Because that's who some of them are.

Ron Paul didn't make all of those allegations himself; many of his supporters are making them.

His strong antiwar stance has attracted a lot of loons from all across the political spectrum, including radicalized youngsters who would otherwise have joined far-LEFT political movements. Ron Paul has also attracted support from the paranoid "9-11 Truth Movement" who claim that BUSH blew up the World Trade Center with high explosives.

I've heard supporters of Ron Paul quoting Chomsky like the gospel truth.

So much so that far-left blogs like DailyKOS have had to print pleas to their readers not to defect from the left-wing to the Ron Paul campaign.

Philippines
While perhaps that was so in the 1930s, CC, and the American occupation was much more tame than what would come in 1942, but the American occupation right after the war with Spain was as brutal and barbaric as anything Japan could have come up with some 40 years later.

I think the tyranny of the Americans in the first years after the war especially in the South were quite sufficient.


America
Oh and Bob:

You have to do better than leave the US, you have to renounce your citizenship too because unlike more sane countries with more sane tax law, the US taxes every penny an American makes--even if he lives 365 days in another country--and of course gets zero services from that country.

You do get a large exemption so unless you are making a good amount of money, you won't be taxed, and even if you were, you could I suppose just not file, what are they going to do and if they got too pesky, you could yes simply renounce your citizenship.


for Citizen Carrier
Citizen Carrier writes: "No, Zinn won't be lonely. I don't think he'll need to worry about freezing temperatures either..."

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Let me try again:

Suppose you are like Howard Zinn, you're a Marxist. You just spent your whole life, trying to advocate a Marxist "dictatorship of the proletariat" and "worker's paradise" in the West. And then, along comes a fellow named Ronald Reagan (whom you only knew from some movies), and your ENTIRE LIFE's WORK goes down the toilet.

How are you going to feel? Are you going to wish Reagan a "Happy Birthday"? Are you going to celebrate the Fourth of July?

Hell, no! You're going to be furious, angry, frustrated. And if anybody ever mentions the words "Reagan" or "America" to you, you will positively SCREAM.

And that's why the Left has been motivated by nothing but anger since the 1990's. Their idealistic dreams of a socialist America were shattered, and now there is nothing left but a thirst for revenge.

Which, incidentally, dovetails very neatly with the Islamists who also scream "Death to America!" Now they are on the same side.

Liberius
"You are very confused if you think that Leftism deserves any credit for WWII, man on the moon etc.

Conservative minded troops fought in the war and invented the things that elevated us. The Right is about building up and the Left is about tearing down."

Oh really? We nationalised our economy long before Hitler ever did? Can't get more social than that. The conservatives of which you speak were what you would now call RINOs. The question then was how do we get things done both sides did it but very few were conservatives preaching everyman for themselves. I guess the threat of instant extinction focused your mind and helps cause cooperation to achieve goals. Now you conservatives do not even set goals much let achieve them.

"FDR's leftist policies elongated the Great Depression all the way up to WWII. Otherwise, it would have died out naturally within 5 years like all recessions before it. It would have been over by 1934 but FDR made it go until '41 or '42. "

Hmm at least he had a way out where all you folks wanted was more of the same

It comes down to perception
The posters from the left illustrate my point quite well.

The biggest difference between left and right is how we see the USA.

Folks on the right side of the aisle believe that America is a Noble country endowed by our creator to be a beacon of how freedom triumphs over tyrrany. Yes we have problems, but we are basically a force for Good.

The left sees the USA as a flawed nation that is trying to dominate the rest of the world. They completely disregard the millions we have released from political slavery, and instead trump up "atrocities" to prove that the USA is evil.

Folks on the right believe that most people are good, and freedom breeds success. We don't want a nanny government controlling our lives, we feel we can make our own decisions.

Useful idiots on the far left, (some of our more rabid lefty posters are good examples) long for the days of the soviet union, because they are too intellectually lazy to make their own decisions, they want the government to choose for them. To a leftist this is Freedom. Lefties tend to believe that all humans are evil by nature and need to be reined in by the all powerful government.

Or maybe they're just stupid. :op


Hal Doofus writes:
Hmm at least he had a way out where all you folks wanted was more of the same

Then kindly explain why he US economy was in worse shape in 1936-37 than in 1932-33.

SteveL
No, you made your point just fine.

I just enjoyed taking the opportunity to mock a totalitarian idiot for writing something stupid and ignorant in the epilogue to his book.

I fully appreciate (and luxuriate in) the profound sense of disappointment lifelong Marxists must be feeling now that the Soviet Union is collapsing and even European countries are starting to give such things as tax cuts consideration.

Reagan and SteveL
The "right" and the GOP have become as big government socialists as anyone. In fact, this president is one of the largest socialists since LBJ. I think Savage calls him a fiscal socialist.

The Reagan small government, less spending went out the window on Jan 20, 1989.


white man's revisionist history
Medved's little "historical" essay is so wrought with inaccuracies that to respond in kind would be an even considerably longer essay that in fact would provide annotated references, not just unsubstantiated assertions.

Yet Medved's attempt to update that good old white man burden of saving other people from themselves is predictably laughable; "free"-trade, that is money, God, and "democracy," something the United States does not even have, are the perpetually proffered benevolent motives for the subjugation, o, I mean, the liberation, of other peoples resources and slave-labor.

Peace dividends indeed, as we spend more on weapons and warfare than we ever have . . .

har har har

Akagi: You STILL don't get it, do you?

Every US base or installation on foreign soil is there ONLY because those countries agree to having a US presence.

Must be because:
1. They WANT us there.

and

2. It's in THEIR BEST interest to have a US presence there.











Jackpine Savage
"The biggest difference between left and right is how we see the USA."

not USA but reality

"Folks on the right side of the aisle believe that America is a Noble country endowed by our creator to be a beacon of how freedom triumphs over tyrrany. Yes we have problems, but we are basically a force for Good."

There is that "believe" word again. You do not have to believe the facts speak for themselves. And what you say above is NOT how the right side "believes" or acts. Moderates on both sides of the aisle demand that the country lives up to its aspirations. We have for much of this country's history BUT we have had problems and we do now. The extreme right tolerates no question that the country is right the extreme left that it is wrong. Only the extreme right controls a political party.

"Folks on the right believe that most people are good, and freedom breeds success. We don't want a nanny government controlling our lives, we feel we can make our own decisions."

Not true at all. The extreme right wants to control our bedrooms, our bodies and our beliefs just as I might add the extreme left does also


Knight
If you can demonstrate to me anywhere in my previous post where I quoted Franklin that I was making the case for imperialism or colonialism or whatever, I should dearly like to see it.

And I would like to know if you condemn Franklin's attempts, successful ones, to form an alliance with France. That would be an interesting read.

Indeed, Jefferson himself served as Minister to France from 1785 to 1789.

Jefferson supported the War of 1812, hoping it would drive British influence out of Canada. Sounds a bit like interventionism to me...

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Jefferson also wrote that, too. In 1800. It does not take much imagination to think of what Jefferson would do, provided he had the military might we now possess, against Soviets or Nazis or Jihadists.

See, he proclaimed his "eternal hostility" tyranny. You gents proclaim "eternal indifference...so long as they leave us alone".

You people are not the descendents of Jefferson.

HALD
You got to be kidding me when you say the left was the reason the cold war was ended. HUH I dont think Ronald Reagan was a LEFTY. I recall the lefties (DEMS) screaming that he REAGAN was going to start WWIII. That seems along ways from endeing the COLD WAR. Also what about FDR and his so called Socail Security Program which today is a failure. Oh I know you will blame that on the REPS. as usual


Robert hook up my sled we are going to the MOON.
HALD

Hal Doofus writes:
Not true at all. The extreme right wants to control our bedrooms, our bodies and our beliefs just as I might add the extreme left does also

The left really wants to control everything we do, think, believe or own, and especially our money.

BTW Mr. Doofus, are you going to explain why the US economy was worse of in 1936-37 than in 1932-33, or is that little fact just a bit embarrassing for you.

Hal proves my point
Thank you hal, you actually are useful once in a while, you proved my point better than countless hours of research could.

You basically blame the problems of the whole world on the "far right" Surprise surprise.

You really are a Useful Idiot. :op

chuck
"You got to be kidding me when you say the left was the reason the cold war was ended. HUH I dont think Ronald Reagan was a LEFTY."

Reagan didn't win the Cold War the D and R administrations of more than 30 years did with the huge help of our allies.

" Also what about FDR and his so called Socail Security Program which today is a failure. Oh I know you will blame that on the REPS. as usual "

Is it a failure? let's ask the American People? You deadbeats just want to skip out on your debts

We all know by now that halD is just

bitter because he passed over... yadda, yadda...

So, we just take what he blathers about with a half a grain of salt, and then ignore that!





Sources
"In “Dangerous Nation,” Robert Kagan discerns this same impatience in the Reconstruction of the American South after the War Between the States."

I love these sources. I have to admit I have the book at home but have not read it because I have other books and subjects as priorties but a word on Kagan. He writes plenty of opeds with William Kristol and they can be read on the PNAC site. They wrote one oped where they called for a "war of civilizations that everyone had hoped to avoid." This guy is a serious Neocon and I just love how Medved slips him in as a credible source. He has regularly cited this book. Wonder what Kagan thinks about the "American Empire", in addition to "Dangerous Nation" he wrote a short book entitled, "Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order". Yeah no empire here, just "liberation" I guess.

Jackpine Savage
"You basically blame the problems of the whole world on the "far right" Surprise surprise."

Along with the far left. I just hope the Republican Party can survive I don't want a one party country

A very Important piece by Medved
At the center of Leftist thinking is the embracing of Neo-Marxist Third Worldism.

Which means turning America into the enemy of humanity.

Not the GOP
Not American Corporations

But America: the people, the culture, the language, the values that define us.

Of course; Leftist American anti-Imperialism is also an expression of cowardice.

Do you really think the Dixie Chicks, George Clooney or, Leonardo DiCaprio may have the cojones to stand in front of a tank in Tianamen square? Judging by their lifestyle I doubt it.

It takes no courage to mock the Catholic Church in San Francisco, now; trying to mock the Communist Party in Tibet takes a complete different glandular endowment.

"Imperialist" wars the Left actively ignores:

The invasion of Finland by Soviet Russia

The partition of Poland by Stalin-Hitler

Soviet Russia phagocyte-ation of East Germany

Soviet Russia occupation of Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Turmekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyztan, Afghanistan, Azherbaijan, Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

China occupation of Tibet.

Cuban occupation of Angola, Somalia and Ethiopia


US bases
Anne:

Japan by and large doesn't mind the US bases in Japan because for the most part they aren't in Japan (as in the traditional homeland of Kyushu, Shikoku, Honshu and Hokkaido)but mostly in Okinawa which only became part of Japan (and the rest of the Ryukyu Islands) in 1879. If you did a poll in Okinawa, I'd bet they like to see the Americans (or at least most of them) go. Raping 12 year old schoolgirls generally have that effect on a population.

Does Japan, no, because the Americans are like having a large mean stray dog in your yard, he may be there for his own reasons, but no one is going to mess around in your yard as long as he is there. The Americans while serving its own interests also partly serve China's and Japan's.

If the US were to withdraw from Japan, Japan would be forced to rearm at a much higher level than she has done so far. This would make China paranoid (as it began to have flashbacks to 1936 and 1937, etc)and build up its military even more leading to a full blown arms race between the two. The Americans keep this from happening thus Japan doesn't have to spend more on the SDF and get into various constitutional issues and fights with the socialists over the SDF funding. So while the US is not there to protect Japan, it still in its interest to be there.

And since they are mostly in Okinawa and the Japanese have always viewed the Ryukyu Islanders as their b*stard stepchild being non-Yamoto the burden of hosting the Americans are mainly on them.

If more and more of the American bases were in the Kanto Plain, you'd see a different reaction in Japan both from the public at large as well as among the political elites in the LDP and the other major parties in Japan. But as long as most of the impact is in Okinawa, the attitude is who cares. Be like a bunch of foreign military bases in Puerto Rico to the Americans.

A very important piece (2)
What is the point?


The Left is so misleading and slanderous in its valuation of America that while Russia was swallowing half the planet; the Left was still decrying "American Imperialism."

It is the worst case of the kettle calling the pot black in recorded History.

And they are AGAIN ready to swallow the notion that it is American globalism that is the enemy.

They are ready to embrace, once again, a medieval, religion based hegemonism, for the sake of sticking it to their parents.

American Liberalism may be an extreme expression of self-loathing.

After all scratch a Liberal and the black legend of America's creation never fails to erupt.

Notice, is not the Native-American blogging against America is a bunch of middle age white guys.

While many "browns" are fighting in Iraq along his white brothers, not because they "got stuck in Iraq" but because they love their country.

Akagi: Impressive rationalization and

spin... You certianly must be dizzy and have a huge headache after THAT one.

But, you shouldn't have bothered. Heaven knows, we take your blatherings exactly as we do halD's, with a half a grain of salt, and then ignore that!





Taiwan
Mao Zhuxi:

Your comments are very odd since it was your name sake that ordered the PLA into Xizang in 1950 and 1951. He also ordered the crackdown in 1959.

You also forget the other imperialism pushed forward by the PRC and that is its desires on Taiwan and at this very moment there are over 800 missiles pointing at Taiwan in Fujian.


Hal Doofus writes:
Along with the far left. I just hope the Republican Party can survive I don't want a one party country

Then why do you support a party that does want a one party state?

Still aren't giving any explanations about the economy in 36-37 vs 32-33.

Jackpine
"Folks on the right believe that most people are good, and freedom breeds success. We don't want a nanny government controlling our lives, we feel we can make our own decisions."

I am on the right but this sweeping genralization is not true. Please look at my screen name and do it. Most of that Communist scum at the AEI were taught politics by this man, his writings, or influenced by his disciples. See what the Weekly Standard thinks of him.

He, as they believe, that you people are literally animals who can't handle the truth or even semi complex thoughts. That you have to have everything broken down to the simplest of terms and that correct argument is unimportant, winning the argument is all that counts. Since you people are too stupid to handle complex thoughts, you obviously could not handle the "eternal" truth on topics such as Religion(1), Politics, and Justice(2) thus they must be manipulated to help the state achieve its means. Also any "Prince" that is worth anything is a "Prince" at war(3).

1)Exodus 33:20, as defined in Maimonides's "Guide of the Perplexed".
2)As defined in Plato's Republic.
3)As explained in "Machiavelli on Modern Leadership" by Michael Ledeen.

Well Anne
I consider the source, Anne. I don't expect idiots like you to understand much. Like trying to teach a pig how to sing and yes Anne you are an idiot.

Anyone who makes the claim that the US has never occupied a country or that Iraq was not under occupation by American forces is plainly stupid.

I can't fix stupid, dear.

It is no rationalization at all. A former PM of Japan said the exact same thing over ten years ago.


Akagi's flawed logic
Akagi claims that the europeans don't want our bases, and the japanese simply tolerate us.

If this is the case, please explain to me why it is when the US considered closing bases in germany, the local governments went insane, crying that closing the bases would cripple their local economies.

I also didn't notice anyone on the left complaining about our continued presence in Bosnia, Oh wait that was Clinton's war, so it's a Good war. Only wars started by republicans are evil.

No one has yet been able to refute my statement about how the US is viewed by the left. Of course it's pretty hard to refute something you can see with your own eyes.


Robert:
Back when I was a general in WW2, hal and I used to like blowing up german soldiers.
Hal inflated them better than me though.

Native Americans
Mao Zhuxi:

It depends though, plenty of "native" Americans are pretty upset at the US as well--e.g. members of AIM. I bet the natives in Native American Studies courses aren't exactly too happy with the US. Then there is La Raza, MEChA, etc. Anti-Americanism is an equal opportunity ideology and not just restricted to old white guys.

GOOGLE "LEO STRAUSS"
We're not in disagreement beyond semantics.

It still boils down to the fact that leftists believe that humans are too stupid or evil to vbe left to their own devices. Since the US constitution states just that, to a lefty, that means the constitution is a flawed document. Since the USA is based on the constitution, that means in the eyes of a dedicated leftist, the US is a flawed country that can only be saved by being destroyed and replaced with a communist utopia.

Considering the fact that I'm considered the "black sheep" of my family for being a conservative in a liberal family, I think I have a bit of insight on how libs think.

Lumberjack7392
"Then why do you support a party that does want a one party state?"

They are the only party supporting the troops and national security

"Still aren't giving any explanations about the economy in 36-37 vs 32-33."

I will give the easy but true answer - it would have been far worse if action had not been taken and possibly WWII would have ended much differently

Akagi: Snappy little comeback there!

:-)




Hal Donahue writes:
Lumberjack7392
"Then why do you support a party that does want a one party state?"

They are the only party supporting the troops and national security

"Still aren't giving any explanations about the economy in 36-37 vs 32-33."

I will give the easy but true answer - it would have been far worse if action had not been taken and possibly WWII would have ended much differently

IOW, you don't sh!t about it. As supporting the troops and national security, what have you been smoking and drinking?

Native Americans
Akagi, do you actually KNOW any "Native Americans"? I AM one! I am 1/2 chippewa indian (I hate the term 'natve american') I'm not mad at the US government. I am actually happy that the american people brought us nifty things like electricity and central heating. Yes we had our land stolen, but we're getting even by stealing all your money in our casinos. (Wish I got a cut:op )

La Raza is a really bad example, considering they think that they have the right to annex the whole USA. Their battle cry is "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us" What a line of twaddle.


You seem to be claiming that the USA is only the land of opportunity for "middle aged white men"
Well for your information, this "Middle aged Indian" has drunk deeply from the fountain of opportunity and succeeded. The problem is, too many in this country don't want opportunity, they want "Security" Opportunity is missed by far too many in this country because it comes dressed in coveralls and looks a lot like work.

All you have to do is look at people like Michael Steele in MD to see that the opportunity in the US isn't just for "middle aged white guys"

If you have talent, or just enough ambition to try, you CAN be successful in this country. If you don't have any ambition, then it's easier to blame your woes on the other guy. Here are some words that every liberal in America needs to burn into their memory, the words that brought me up out of poverty. "If it's to be, it's up to ME" Not the government, not queen hillary, but ME....

Germany
I never made any comments directed toward Germany, my comments were restricted to Japan only. But in any event, the topic arose when one of the first poster said "why are we protecting the Japs anyway."

I ignored the racist term but correctly pointed out that the US troops (no matter how either the Yamoto or non-Yamoto feel about them) are there to project its own power and protect its own interests and has nothing to do with protecting Japan (and never did).

The point is the US isn't in Japan out of the kindness of its heart. If the US felt the bases in Okinawa or the few on Honshu weren't needed by the US, it would close them.

The US is closing Fort Gillem and McPherson in Georgia and not because it is not wanted there but because they aren't needed. The US maintained bases in Taiwan until 1971 which included the massive Ching Chuan Kang AFB in Taichung. I am sure the government of the ROC would have rather them stay, but they left anyway. The short point is that the US bases are there to protect American interests and not the host country, if the US felt it didn't need them, they would close them.




Jackpine
You're not from a Jewish family are you?

Akagi
We are in Japan primarily for the security and stability of Japan and our interests are only secondary as we think it is better for us that Japan not be taken over by China.

The Chinese are on the rise and Japan is worried (as they should be) due to the history of conflict between the two. This is why Japan PAYS for most of the expenses to keep our military forces stationed in Japan.

We are not "occupying" Japan, we are more like the hired security for Japan. We don't tell Japan what to do. They WANT us there, at least the wise people who control Japanese govt.

Natives
Savage:

You seem confused to my post. It was to Mao Zhuxi, who claimed that it seemed only angry white men were being anti-Americans, my point is that that ideology isn't race or culture based. You'll find plenty of angry Indians, blacks, Hispanics, Native Hawaiians, etc complaining about their plight--valid or not--and how evil the US is and how the man is keeping them down, etc.

That was my point. Not that Indians (and it is the term I prefer as well), Hispanics, etc are by in large anti-American, but some are of course, so this is not just an ideology embraced by whites.

"You seem to be claiming that the USA is only the land of opportunity for "middle aged white men"

When did I make that point?


Lumberjack7392
"As supporting the troops and national security, what have you been smoking and drinking? "

Not if you are supporting this President and his Congress. Where do you want to start? Not enough troops, equipment or medicalcare? The fact that the terrorists that attacked us are still free and actually threatening the stability of nuclear Pakistan? National debt going thru the roof with no relief in sight? Our manufacturing base being exported? Nothing being done to reduce dependence on foreign oil?

These are facts not beliefs. If you believe troops abandoned in the desert in Iraq are serving a good purpose and if you want war with Iran and we need to get back to Afghanistan whose instability is causing instability in Pakistan. Then you darn well should be demanding a much larger military and PAYING for it.

Notice I didn't even go into the massive underfunding of the VA

American Colonialism
The darling of the proponents of the theory of American Colonialism is Puerto Rico.

For the Left Puerto Rico is nothing but a colonial possesion of the US.

The Left just love to decry the suffering of this noble and oppressed "island nation."

In 1998 Puerto Rico held a referendum to determine the future of the island.

70% of Puerto Ricans voted in the poll.

Only 2.5% voted for Independence.

Of course, the Left spinned the results until every one was dizzy. It didn't stop Danny Glober from going to Vieques either.

The left never yields to evidence. When the facts don't fit the template they just change the interpretation.

By the way the highly steemed "La Raza" is a racist organization. The only difference between them and the KKK is the shade of skin color they deem worthy of supremacy.

The Left self-delussion: Jihadism is a reaction to Western colonialism, La Raza is not racist, and Castro has been in power 47 years only for the sake of health care and education.

No wonder the Left is so enamored with abusing illegal substances; how else can anyone withstand so much cognitive dissonance?

Jackpine Savage: BRAVO!! EXCELLENT!!

Of course, you do realize that you wasted it on some lib who refuses to understand or believe what you said, and would much rather believe only negative things... AND, has clearly NOT taken advantage of everything this WONDERFUL COUNTRY has to offer...

(Warts and all, we'ere still the best the world has ever had!)





Japan
China can't even take over Taiwan let alone Japan which has one of the most modern militaries in the region.

Again, the US is in Japan to pursue its interests and not to protect Japan. And if the US left, what would happen is Japan would rearm and you'd have a arms race between China and Japan--which could lead to a third Sino-Japanese War--this one a nuclear one. That is not in Japan's interest or the American's interest.

The question was why "are we protecting the Japs." The answer is your not. You are there to protect your own interests which just so happen to also intersect with Japan's.


Hal Doofus writes:
vLumberjack7392
"As supporting the troops and national security, what have you been smoking and drinking? "

Not if you are supporting this President and his Congress. Where do you want to start? Not enough troops, equipment or medicalcare? The fact that the terrorists that attacked us are still free and actually threatening the stability of nuclear Pakistan? National debt going thru the roof with no relief in sight? Our manufacturing base being exported? Nothing being done to reduce dependence on foreign oil?

These are facts not beliefs. If you believe troops abandoned in the desert in Iraq are serving a good purpose and if you want war with Iran and we need to get back to Afghanistan whose instability is causing instability in Pakistan. Then you darn well should be demanding a much larger military and PAYING for it.

Notice I didn't even go into the massive underfunding of the VA

What a load of Bravo Sierra. You are getting even better at being an echo chamber for the DNC. As to the party's support for the troops, I think the leaders' actions and own words speak louder than anything you ccan say.

BTW, a--hole, I suspect I pay as much in taxes if not more than you do. So FOADESABATM.

Liberius
No, I'm not jewish.
My nother is Chippewa Indian (she's now a tribal elder) My dad was German/Irish and a union factory worker all his life.

Since I could never stand working in factories, I chose the building trades, eventually starting my own construction company in the 90s. When I was disabled in a car accident in 1999, I couldn't build houses anymore. 6 months later our house burned to the ground, leaving my family broke and homeless. Instead of giving up and letting the govt. take care of me, I used the whole $2000 I had in the bank, used some creative financing to buy a new house, then I bought a 2nd hand computer, taught myself HTML and opened my first website in mid 2000.

I have never received a dime of govt. disability, I have never relied on the nanny state to take care of me and mine. I grabbed opportunity by the shirt tails and clawed my way out of poverty. I'm not rich (yet),but instead of being a drag on society, I am a tax paying businessman who creates jobs instead of spending taxpayer money. If a slightly burned out ex-carpenter can find the american dream, anyone can. :o)

Akagi, don't underestimate the ethnic...
influence on an indiviudals politics. Ethnicity is probably the #1 influence. Blacks vote Dem 95%, Jews vote Dem 87%, Hispanics vote Dem 60-70% of the time. And the REASON for that is perceived ethnic interests.

Soon conservatism will be dead because whites (like me) are losing their standing. Soon we will be below 70% and too many whites have been conned by the Left, especially single white women who have been taught by the left to resent white males and their general conservative philosophy that has served the country so well.

Japan
Anne, the fool. Do you ever say anything intelligent?

And since I know more about China, Chinese and Japan than he'll ever know, there is nothing for him to tell me that I don't already know at least on the subject of those two states.

It is also incorrect to call me a liberal, but for mindless twits like you anyone that doesn't exactly fall lockstep with your own beliefs is a liberal, or a socialist or a communist or whatever mindless term you have decided to use for the day.

Oh and care to explain to me how from 1945-1952 Japan wasn't occupied? Or Okinawa from 1945 until 1972 I am still waiting for that answer.

And Savage:

Never have made the claim that Japan is under occupation today.




Ethnic voting
Liberius:

I don't disagree with that. Blacks vote 90-95% Dem and Hispanics 60/40 Dems (and if Richardson is on the ticket it'll be much larger).


Akagi
The average Chinese citizen on the streets considers it a foregone conclusion that China will one day go to war against the U.S. I'm not ready to buy that but many high level Chinese military officials have spoken openly about it. But it is even more likely that China would first take Taiwan and then Japan.

Consider that soon about 15 million Chinese men will be without wives due to the policy of aborting girl babies. This about equals all the men total that we sent to Europe and Asia to defeat the Axis forces in WWII. And China could easily field an army of 200 million if they wanted.

It would be insane for China to make war against the US or Japan but big cocky countries often do insane things. It was insane for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor. It was insane for Germany to declare war against America and to invade the USSR.

The fact is that Japan is worried about China and THAT'S why they PAY for US to stay there. You are ignoring this fact.

Good reason NOT to capture Bin-Landen
The same Leftist who are whinning about his continued elusiveness, will turn around,grant him Constitutional Rights, and make the US government into the evil power who is "illegally" detaining him.

After all, that is what we have in Guantanamo a bunch of Osama-like thugs, and that is what the Left wants us to do.

Can you imagine Che Guevara in US custody?

Or are we supposed to ignore there were American Lefties the ones offering free legal representation to Saddam Hussein?

The least we ought to demand from the Left is consistency.

If one follows the Logic of American Imperialism in Arab lands then one must disagree of Bin Laden's methods but not his principles.

For the Left Bin Laden and all other terrorist are just misguided hot heads which can eventually be brought around to agree with their Socialist agenda.

Why else do you think they advocate diplomacy?

For Liberals, Hitler was a guy with "bad information" who could be re-educated.

Yes, they have adolescent-like thinking

Akagi
The most important point about ethnic voting patters is that "the REASON for that is perceived ethnic interests".

America became a great nation primarily because of the ethnic values of the Anglo. And the Anglos are being trashed and even trashing themselves. This means the days of great America are numbered.

Correction
"And Savage:

Never have made the claim that Japan is under occupation today."

Should have been directed at Liberius.

Jackspine, WOW what a story!
Now THAT'S an impressive American experience.

Godspeed Jackspine!

Akagi
The following words strongly implied "occupation" in the sense that I addressed it:

"The point is the US isn't in Japan out of the kindness of its heart. If the US felt the bases in Okinawa or the few on Honshu weren't needed by the US, it would close them."

Mao, PR
I'm having a hard time interpreting your post about Puerto Rico. How were results of the referendum spun to show support for independence? What does Danny Glover showing up in Vieques have anything to do with PR independence? Puerto Rican independence/ statehood/commonwealth status has absolutely nothing to do the notion of liberal/conservative that we have here in mainland US, so I really don't understand how this information serves to illustrate your point.


Japan
Liberius:

The alternative to Pearl Harbor would have been less sane--a war with the US with its forces in the Philippines and assets intact in Hawai'i.

It was not very sane to have Chuichi Nagumo lead the atatck and not to launch the third wave to knock out the oil tank farms and sub pens and dry docks--that was indeed not very sane.

Japan could have caved in to the American demands but no country is going to let another decide its own foreign policy or it could simply ran out of oil and let its economy collapse. The attack was the best of a number of bad options. The plan was sound, but not carried out to a point where it could have worked.

China may field a army of 200 million or a billion but unless they can walk on water they doesn't do them much good. The Taiwan Strait is 125 miles wide and it can't be crossed at anytime of the year in total darkness and they don't have the lift capacity to get anywhere near the forces on Taiwan needed to win...not to mention the ROCA is better trained and better equipped.

The sex ratio issue is more likely to cause an internal collapse or revolt than a war outside its borders.

And the average Chinese citizen is a peasant that could careless. Some young hot heads on the Chinese language blogs or those that wrote "Zhong Guo Ke Yi Bu (The China that can say No) see a war with the US likely. I don't dismiss a war with the US and China over something in Taiwan, but knowing recent US history I am not all that confident the US would come to Taiwan's aid--The US in regards to Taiwan has been a very unreliable ally.

China at this point has lots of issues internally and the last thing it needs is a conflict with anyone--Taiwan, Japan, the US, the Philippines--anybody.






Thanks Liberius
I'm working hard at it. :o)

It wasn't easy, in fact it was damn hard at times, butI was able to pull myself out of poverty because of the freedoms we have here,(And the love of a good woman), not Despite them as many on the left believe.

If I had been a good leftist I'd be sitting in government housing somewhere playing "when is the check arriving?".

Now you can see why I get so upset about all the stories we hear about the "Plight of the Katrina Evacuees" 2 years after katrina, we are still paying rent for "evacuees".

The fastest way to get back on your feet is to get off your A$$$!

Puerto Rico
I'm not exactly sure what Mao is trying to say but I'm intimately familiar with the situation in Puerto Rico. I previously prosecuted the "Independantistas" who sought to interfere with our military missions on the Isle of Vieques.

Those behind the Vieques protests were Leftist subversives.

Jackpine Savage
"What a load of Bravo Sierra. You are getting even better at being an echo chamber for the DNC. As to the party's support for the troops, I think the leaders' actions and own words speak louder than anything you ccan say."

So I guess that you admit everything I said was correct? If not what was incorrect?

"BTW, a--hole, I suspect I pay as much in taxes if not more than you do."

I certainly hope so

Liberalism corrupts people
That has much to do with the suffering of blacks and American Indians today - no doubt. And it is pulling the whole country down too.

Once the Democrats have the majority on welfare there will be no stopping them. The final failure of the USA will then be irreversable and certain.

Blowback
Anne

The concept of blowback and sectarian issues in Iraq is from the CIA, military intelligence and experts. Vice President Cheney warned about this as well as the instability of Iraq during and after Iraq war 1 That is why we did not invade Iraq the first time. Please deal with facts not what you feel!

WATCH THE VIDEO OF CHENEY TELLING US ABOUT IRAQ!

Cheney ‘94: Invading Baghdad Would Create Quagmire C-SPAN


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/cheney-94-invading -baghdad-would-create-quagmire-c-span

How so?
""The point is the US isn't in Japan out of the kindness of its heart. If the US felt the bases in Okinawa or the few on Honshu weren't needed by the US, it would close them."

How does this imply occupation? The US military isn't in Georgia out of the kindness of its heart either and as you are seeing it has closed a number of bases there.

The US bases in Japan aren't there simply out of a form of charity but because it feels they are important to the US world mission--it has nothing to do with protecting "Japs" as the first poster so kindly put it.

Hal Dumbassss
Prove me wrong dipstick!
Tell me one thing about what I wrote that is untrue!
You can't of course, so instead you decide to trash me instead. I always thought you were a blowhard, now I know you're a Stupid Blowhard.

I refuse to waste my time arguing with someone who has such a tenous grasp on reality.

Clearly Akagi doesn't know what

"OCCUPATION" really is. So, here is the definition.

"Belligerent military occupation occurs when the control and authority over a territory belonging to a state passes to a 'hostile army.'"

That is what happened when Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979, and OCCUPIED Afghanistan until 1982! Russia controlled the government (or was the gov't.) the people, and every aspect of life in Afghanistan.


Russia was a "hostile army" opposed to the US going into Iraq... a "liberating army."

Even after WWII, having defeated both Germany and Japan, we were not a hostile country going into those countries to rule and posess... we were there to help rebuild and aid in their rebuilding..


For Germany, in constant 2005 dollars the United States provided a total of $29.3 billion in assistance from 1946-1952 with 60% in economic grants and nearly 30% in economic loans, and the remainder in military aid.

Beginning in 1949, the Marshall Plan provided $1.4 billion with the specific objective of promoting economic recovery.

Prior to that, U.S. aid was categorized as Government and Relief in Occupied Areas (GARIOA). Adjusting for inflation, the constant 2005 dollar total for Marshall Plan aid was $9.3 billion, of which 84% billion was grants and 16% was loans. (West Germany eventually repaid one-third of total U.S. assistance it
received.)




Akagi
As I said earlier, we are their to protect Japs because we think it is in the interests of world peace to protect Japs and it is in our interests to have world peace.

Personally, I think we ought to charge the Japanese and Koreans more than we are. 80% is not enough.

Liberius
I am also pretty intimately familiar with Puerto Rico. I will not disagree with you that Leftist subversives were very much a part of the protests regarding our military use of Vieques, Berrios being the worst of the lot. However, to simply dump the whole situation at their feet is taking the easy way out. I don't pretend to know the political ideology of the Sanes family, but I assume their reaction and those of the other residents of Vieques would have been the same regardless of their ideologies.

Geeze Akagi, not only can you NOT say

anything intelligent, you can't seem to say anything without insults and name calling.

The only people I know who are like that are either very limited or liberals... or both limited liberals.


Cheers! :-)












Anne
Seems Anne doesn't believe her own government then because that is what the US government called it--an occupation and it called the countries that occupied Japan (US) and Germany (USSR, US, France, UK) the occupying powers.

Oh and if you have Japanese made goods from that period, you will notice it says on the product "Made in Occupied Japan."

"we think it is in the interests of world peace to protect Japs and it is in our interests to have world peace."

Outside of the term Jap, I don't have an issue with this statement at all, Liberius and the US should charge what the market will bear. If Japan says no, you can charge less or leave.


Jackpine Savage
Thank you you just made my day!
I love it when some one implodes and surrenders as you just did. thanks. Oh I don't think I ever did trash you Did I?

Anne
Yes, I tend to call idiots idiots. If you were able to actually say things that didn't indicate to me that you were not incredibly stupid, then I'd be less inclined to do so.

I insult people who deserve to be insulted and you, by your own mindless posts, qualify.

Akagi: self important and arrogant too!

Good thing that you think so highly of yourself, 'cause you're about the ONLY ONE WHO DOES!

But, you still don't get it... Guess you'll just carry on in your ignorance... Enjoy! :-)









Hal
You said what I wrote was "a load of Bravo Sierra". To me that's calling me a liar, which is Trashing someone.

I'm far grom imploding and surrendering anything. If you had read anything I have posted, surrender is against my very nature.

But I'm not about to waste my day arguing with someone who takes great joy in being contrary.
If I said that fire trucks are red, you would put forth soime silly survey that says they're green. Arguing with you is like wrestling with a pig. We'd both just end up covered ion crap, and you would enjoy it too much.


Far too many "open minds" need to be closed for repair. - Zig Ziglar

Anne, the idiot
So Anne tell me again if the forces in Japan weren't a force of occupation, why did the Americans call themselves that? And the US forces weren't there to simply rebuild Japan--it was there to dismantle the Japanese military, the political establishment, etc and it did indeed rule including framing Japan's constitution and it ruled Okinawa--part of Japan since 1879--until 1972.

I don't really care what idiots like you think about me since you are too dim to be able to make any sort of intelligence analysis.


Puerto Rico
It was irrational for the people of Vieques to be against the American bases. Only one civilian death from the bombing exercises is actually a great safety record. Now the Puerto Ricans regret pushing the Americans out because of the adverse economic impact.

Rational people love to have American bases nearly because it greatly helps with the local economy. The Vieques protests were the product of irrational, leftwing anti-Americanism.

It was my job to fight to win the court battles so that we could stay there. I won all my cases but secretly I, as a patriotic American, wanted us to leave Puerto Rico. I want all our bases to close and I want Puerto Rico to be independent of us. We pour about 13 billion $$$ a year into that small island where the majority resent us.

I am an Independentista of a different variety.

squire of baawa
"What else could your times-are-different nonsense mean?"

Besides the fact that this isn't the 18th Century and Europe isn't some fractured, constantly warring region that Jefferson was correct to want no part of?

No, it couldn't mean much else.

And for the record, when Jefferson talked about avoiding the entanglements of alliances, he was not saying so because he was afraid America would become an empire.

So how is it that you can accuse me of shilling for imperialism when all I did was talk about historical prospectives? Neither Jefferson or myself were talking about empire.

You're the only one.

Notice how your responses just get shorter and shorter and more monosyllabic?


Jackpine Savage writes:
Hal
You said what I wrote was "a load of Bravo Sierra". To me that's calling me a liar, which is Trashing someone.


Jackpine, Hal is just showing what an illiterate Doofus he is. I wrote that statement to him. He cannot even determine who is posting what.

jester of baawa
Hmm, pushed the send button too soon.

I wanted to add that "empires" do not enter into entagling alliances. Oh, they did in the past when there were several different imperial powers out there. Like England, the Ottomans, Austro-Hungary, France, Spain, Germany, Russia.

But we're the only real power left. At the moment.

Entangling alliances? With who? Empires do that out of necessity or convenience. If you think that we are the global hegemonic power you say we are, we can pretty much do whatever we want.

So why don't we? What's stopping us? If we want the Iraqi oil or Iran's or anybody's (even though we won't even go the cheaper and less deadly route of drilling our own first), who's stopping us?

WE are stopping us. Because we are not an empire.

Not in our national character. Not for a long, long time.

Akagi: LOL :-)
Uh oh... looks like akagi lost control....

Yikes! :-)




Akagi just curious
How are the Japanese dealing with the
1. The Rape of Nanking
2. PHILIPPINES MASSACRE
3. BANGKA ISLAND MASSACRE
4. THE PARIT SULONG MASSACRE
5. TOL PLANTATION ATROCITY
6. MASSACRE ON BALIKPAPAN
7. THE CHEKIANG MASSACRES
8. ATROCITY ON LUZON
9. KOKOPO AND BALLALAE MASSACRES
etc................

hmmmm There are so many more. Are the Japanese even admitting yet that they even occurred yet?

Medveds ?
At the end of his article he poses the hypothetical question; what would the world have been without the U.S.? I think the answer would be a simple one....Islamic. And just look at that "model" set of Ideas, a world barely beyond the seventh century. Im sure peace through out the world would be one of their highest priorities.....Maybe at the end of the sword. I look back thru U.S. history and can find some events that were not so great, but for the most part everything we have done was done to help not hinder mankinds future. I am very proud of America and consider it blessing to be born in this great nation. All though the socialist movement in this current day seems strong it is destin to fail....simply because it goes against a word they like to use often "progression" evil can not progress far without showing its true face. The liberals with their no accountablilty lifestyle will never survive long enough to spread their lie.

lumberjack
Yeah, I kind of thought he was way off base, but it was still fun punching the little weenie in the nose over it anyhow.

You'll have to excuse me for a bit, it's affiliate payday here and i have a lot of evil conservative small buisnessmen to pay this month. :o)

Robert: What is the sound of One Hand Clapping?
Shaggy, I know, but Hal yells at me when I do it on the rug.


independent thinker
Have you figured out who is primarily behind these leftist lies? Have you figured our WHY they advocate such nonsense.

I have solved this great mystery.

Anne writes:
Akagi: LOL :-)
Uh oh... looks like akagi lost control....

Yikes! :-)


When it comes to Akagi, just remember what happened to the Akagi on June 4, 1942. It happens to him regularly.

ind thinker: Well said!

The Islamics have never given up... to this day... on their quest to rule the world.

And, I agree, warts, mistakes and all, the United States is the best in the world.

I have to chuckle with all these ... "woe is America" folks. How bad can be possibly be with people "lining up" to immigrate to our country, legally and illegally.

Jackspine is absolutely right!

I would recommend reading from GunnyG's blog an excerpt of the speech by French President Sarkozy.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/






What the LEFT is really all about...
From Dr. Kevin MacDonald's book, "Culture of Critique: "Collectively, these movements have called into question the fundamental moral, political, and economic foundations of Western society. A critical feature of these movements is that they have been, at least in the United States, top-down movements in the sense that they were originated and dominated by members of a highly intelligent and highly educated group. These movements have been advocated with great intellectual passion and moral fervor and with a very high level of theoretical sophistication. Each movement promised its own often overlapping and complementary version of utopia: a society com-posed of people with the same biological potential for accomplishment and able to be easily molded by culture into ideal citizens as imagined by a mor-ally and intellectually superior elite; a classless society in which there would be no conflicts of interest and people would altruistically work for the good of the group; a society in which people would be free of neuroses and aggression toward outgroups and in tune with their biological urges; a multicultural paradise in which different racial and ethnic groups would live in harmony
214 The Culture of Critique
and cooperation—a utopian dream that also occupies center stage in the discussion of Jewish involvement in shaping U.S. immigration policy in Chapter 7. Each of these utopias is profoundly problematic from an evolution-ary perspective, a theme that will be returned to in Chapter 8.
The originators of these movements were all vitally concerned with anti-Semitism, and all of the utopias envisioned by these intellectual and political movements would end anti-Semitism while allowing for Jewish group conti-nuity. A generation of Jewish radicals looked to the Soviet Union as an idyllic place where Jews could rise to positions of preeminence and where anti-Semitism was officially outlawed while Jewish national life flourished..."

Re: Puerto Rico
Liberius, I'm sorry to have to keep this going, but now I am going to have to disagree with you. Where is this majority of Puerto Ricans who resent the US? Was it the 90+% who constantly vote to reaffirm PR's relationship with the US, be it statehood or commonwealth? If you could direct me to the data that led to your conclusion, I would be more than happy to reevaluate my position on the matter.

LeftRudyRight
I lived and worked in PR for 8 months. My witnesses had to hide their Navy uniforms to prevent getting attacked as we drove into court. When we went to Vieques we had to have the protection of a large contingent of police guarding the entrance area to ensure was passed safely.

I saw the newspaper articles every day in the PR press. I read a book on the political history of PR while I was there. I got input from other Puerto Ricans while there.

The previous referendums actually showed that what option won was "none of the above" which reflects general discontent. The Puerto Ricans don't want the status quo but they don't know what they want. They just dislike the U.S. and grumble that they are a colony won by the U.S. as "war booty".

Some of the worst terrorists were Puerto Ricans like those who tried to kill Truman in '52 and Lolita Labron who led the group who shot 5 congressman in '54. I personally prosecuted Labron in '01. She refused to come to court.

Liberius and Anne
Liberius......

No Im to pre occupied controlling my anger over their lies. But I would like to hear your thoughts.

Anne.......

I often chuckle as well......Eveyone wants to come here. I guess to the liberal everyone wants to be an imperialist.

Liberius
I did not mention this earlier, but I am from Puerto Rico. While my immediate family and I live in the continental US, every one else is still in PR. Again, I am not going to argue with you about that which I do not know, namely the treatment you recieved or your naval witnesses. However, no member of my family, has ever had to hide their military status, and that goes all the way back to WWII. The only status referendum that ever had 'none of the above' was the one in 98. The previous two had clear cut options, and independence never cracked 5%. Even the one in 98 clearly had independence as an option, so if the they were so resentful of the relationship with the US, the option was there. I agree with you that the terrrorists who have come from PR have been terrible, but they have enjoyed far from widespread support. I am still more than willing to review any data that would suggest the majority of Puerto Ricans are resentful of the US or would prefer independence.

Liberius


"Irving's other expert is an American professor named Kevin MacDonald, whose ideas about Jews have almost no relevance to the case but represent the broadest, ugliest, and most vicious anti-Semitism passing for scholarship in this country today." Slate

Doesn't sound like the kind of guy I'd admire.

Puerto Rico
True, not more than 5% ever vote for Independence but, as my Puerto Rican friend told me in law school, they only vote that way because they know they cannot AFFORD to be independent. PR, spiritually STRONGLY DESIRES indenpendence but they, logically, cannot bear to cut off the flow of American dollars into the island. Except for the money, PR is a independent nation at heart. They have their own olympics team, I think their own beauty contestant in Miss Universe, they reject English as the main language and their culture is very unique. The majority do resent America.

I know first hand that there are a significant number of good Puerto Ricans who appreciate the U.S. and are patriotic towards America. But I am certain they are not in the majority.

I don't really blame Puerto Ricans for wanting to be independant of America. It is in America's interests to sever our relationship. I don't want American money being wasted on PR anymore. It's not that I'm anti-Hispanic (my wife is Mexican and we went to PR for our honeymoon in '93). I am pro-American and we need to mind our own business. The Spanish-American war was a huge mistake and it has hurt us to keep PR and try to keep the Philippines. PR and PI benefitted but we lost.

More on K. McDonald
"In his second book, MacDonald explains why Jews have encountered so much anti-Semitism for so many years: It was justified."

"(MacDonald does not deny that the Holocaust occurred, but he appears to think it was rooted in an immutable biological chain reaction that the Jews set off.)"

Taft
Read MacDonald's reply to my critics here: http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/replies.htm

MacDonald is the leader in his field. He did absolutely nothing wrong is relation to Irving. You can read the affidavit he submitted that Irving used. There is nothing to back out of.

Read his book, Culture of Critique and it will open your eyes in ways never before.

Taft
History shows that Jews have been expelled from more than 100 Gentile nations or principalities over the several hundred years. Who do you think was "wrong" in those situations? Was it the Jews or the Gentiles?

Behind each situation is a very politically incorrect set of facts. The Jews have been involved in most significant subversive movements in the countries that they have resided as immigrants. The host Gentile nations simply could not tolerate them anymore.

No Money = No Empire
I can hardly wait for Medved's sequel to this installment which will hopefully be entitled "The Economics of Maintaining an Empire."

Are we forgetting something in the current discussion such as the fact that you have to pay your bills or you lose your stuff. Well, 9 trillion down at the moment and odds are we'll hit 10 before W hits the road.

Morgan Stanley predicts today a better than 50% chance we will experience a total economic meltdown related to the sub-prime scam.

But hey, why worry about money when you've got democracy to spread.

Liberius
If this is true, I don't want to read him.

"Toward the end of the third book, MacDonald lays out his solution for restoring what he calls "parity" between the Jews and other ethnic groups: systematic discrimination against Jews in college admission and employment and heavy taxation of Jews "to counter the Jewish advantage in the possession of wealth."

Robert got something right!
Everyone, Mark your calendars, today is a red letter day.

Robert, this has to be the first time I've ever really agreed with you on anything.

When I said those of us on the right, I wasn't including the wacky tinfoil hat-wearing, god hates F*gs church-going tiny little wing of the right. I have absolutely nothing in common with them besides the fact that we disagree with the liberal point of view.

Just as most "Mainstream Liberals" have very little in common with the rabid "America is the root of all evil" crowd on the far left.

But even the lefties have to agree that the far left wing has a lot more power in this country than the Far right wing.I saw democrats licking boots at the Yearly Kos convention, I don't see any republicans lining up to go to church with the Phelps family.

Friends don't let friends vote Democrat.

Jews in Germany 1918-1938
The reason why Jews were hated in Germany during this period was because many Jews took advantage of the weakness in Germany after WWI. Jews were primarily behind the attempts at communist revolution in Germany during that period and Jews in the media were behind a corruption of German culture much like Hollywood in America today. Consider what Winston Churchill said of the Jews in Germany in 1920 and remember this is just 2 years after bloody WWI where Britian and Germany fought against each other:

"In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing." http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html

Taft
I read the 3rd book he's refering to. I don't recall reading that. At the very least it is a twist. Condider that today colleges routinely discriminate against whites and asians because of affimative action in favor of blacks and Hispanics. Also, our defacto system taxes whites more than blacks.

Nobody is really educated in this country until they have read Culture of Critique. It explains virtually all of the baffling leftwing movements of the 20th Century. Finally, it is all explained.

A better book
to read on what its like to be a Jew is 'Alicia My Story.' Her complete family and relatives were murdered during WWII. She ends the story with this wise bit of hope.

"I pray that all its readers, Jew and non-Jew alike, may unite in the resolve that evil forces never again be permitted to set one people against another."

Anne
Yes Anne, I lose it when people say stupid things.

And Knight, as for the actions of the IJA and the Kempeitai in the Pacific War, did I ever say they didn't happen, nor say that Japan shouldn't include them? No. But Medved isn't talking about Japan...just as Japan shouldn't white wash its history, neither should the US.

And LJ: care to expand your comment to me?

And finally, thinker:

Who wants to come to the US by and large are those of the developed world; not those from say Sweden.




Akagi writes:
And LJ: care to expand your comment to me?

Look up the Battle of Midway, and find what happened to the Akagi.

Boutte and the rest of you Liberals
Stop citing General Butler, you asses! He was no anti-American trator, he was a REAL PATRIOT who would kick your asses if he heard you.
The General spoke against the Bananna wars of the twenties, but he defended Americans overseas with his life's blood, something YOU cowards wouldn't understand.

Lumberjack: Geeze, even I knew that


Battle of Midway! Shows how stupid I am, huh? LOL



Anne writes:
Lumberjack: Geeze, even I knew that


Battle of Midway! Shows how stupid I am, huh? LOL


How about

SBD's 4
Japaneses Carriers 0

Culture of Critique
The enitre book, Culture of Critique can be read for free on the web here: http://www.prometheism.net/library/CultureOfCritique.pdf

Taft: None of us are for evil. But are you not the slightest but curious as to WHY the Jews seems to make enemies everywhere they go? Are you not at all open-minded to the idea that maybe, just maybe the Jews habitually subverted their hosts and antagonized them?

Must the Gentiles be the evil party here?

If you actually read the facts of history, a very different picture will emerge. When Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were about to be executed for given our atomic secrets to Stalin, they wrote letters saying they were becoming Jewish martyrs. But they were not being persecuted because they were Jews they were prosecuted because they were communist traitor spies who caused great harm to the country that kindly took in their family. This is the story of the Jews again and again throughout history.

Midway
LJ:

I am well aware of what happened to the Kido Butai at Midway. My question is what does the carrier Akagi have to do with me attacking some idiot that doesn't understand that Japan was in fact under occupation from 1945 until 1952


Lumberjack: Silent But Deadly?
.

Proving my point
Anne:

Try SBD Dauntless dive bombers.


Lumberjack: Akagi doesn't get...

"It happens to him regularly." part!!!

Akagi also went a little ballistic when I had to explain exactly what a real "OCCUPATION" is... "Belligerent military occupation occurs when the control and authority over a territory belonging to a state passes to a 'hostile army.'"

and the US never exactly qualified as an occupier...


Heck, I was even nice enough to give him an example... when Russia invaded and occupied Afghanistan... kind of a "compare and contrast" thing to help him understand.

Then he really got all nasty and stuff... Go figure! :-)

I guess he REALLY didn't like it when I posted all the money we poured into Japan to help rebuild... Then he went off like a bottle rocket! Geesh!

Yup, kind of like Midway! :-)










Liberius
I'm a curious person, but I see no reason to not believe the traditional obvious reaonse thatJjews were hated in all those countries. Namely, that they were allowed to do things, like charge interest on loans, that gentiles, for biblical reasons were not. This made them wealthy and yes, they have a tradition of having great respect for what scholarship can achieve. These thing bring wealth and mixed in with xenophobia and jealousy, you have hate.

Japan
No I didn't like it when even your own country called it an occupation and even the products of the time exported from Japan have "made in occupied Japan" on them, but yet you continue to deny this fact.

Oh and even using your standard, the US occupation was an occupation since the primary goal was not to rebuild Japan but to dismantle its military and political system.




Akagi: Puh... Lost cause...

I don't know if you understand ANYTHING!!!

Obviously you're just too irrationally angry and delusional to be reasonable or lucid for that matter....


Geeze, chill!




Anne writes:
Lumberjack: Silent But Deadly?

Close. Actually the pilots called them Slow But Deadly.

Ot is a little strange Akagi regurlarly gets blown out of the water here, but does NOT seem to realize it.

What's weirder is that he does not seem to realize that Japan brought about the occupation. Or to put it another way, "They sowed the wind, and reaped a whirlwind."

Dumb as dirt
Yes, it is a lost cause to try to instruct people that are dumb as dirt like you.

See US government, US history texts, even the products of the time made in Japan call it an occupation. There are some 11 million websites that use the term but clueless Anne still claims it isn't. I see.




Anne
LJ:

That isn't my point. My point is her foolish statement that the US has never occupied a country. Now if you want to go off and swap spit with Anne here, fine, but on this and many other issues she is clueless.

Lumberjack: I really didn't know

the SBD question, thus the "?"

But, I did study history in school... and being a Navy brat, "Victory At Sea" ...(if you remember that?) was pretty much required tv watching at our house. :-)


for Jackpine Savage
Jackpine Savage writes: "It comes down to perception....Folks on the right side of the aisle believe that America is a Noble country....a force for Good.
The left sees the USA as a flawed nation that is trying to dominate the rest of the world."

So do some people on the Right.

Pat Buchanan constantly rails against "American Empire," every bit as much as do Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn.

And some of the more devout social conservatives, like James Dobson and Robert Bork, ALSO think America is a deeply flawed nation--a modern Gomorrah of immorality, illicit sex, homosexuality, drugs, etc., whose free-wheeling modernistic culture is actually hurting the world and turning it away from "traditional values."

Finally, it's NOT a matter of mere "perception." It's a reflection of one's deepest held philosophical priorities.

If you have worked your entire life to advance the cause of socialism, then you're going to despise America because America didn't go that way.

And if you have worked your entire life to advance the cause of Christian evangelism and return to some imagined stricter morality of the early 19th century Puritans, then you're ALSO going to dislike America because America hasn't gone that way either.

Aakagi of 5:42
First i assume in your last sentence you meant undeveloped world vice "developed". Starting from there, the number of people of affluence and higher education trying to get here from Europe and Asia is much higher than what we will let in legally. The US economy has a thirst for engineers far out of proportion to our culture and education systems ability to produce them. Our smart students tend to go into law or business/MBA because that's where the money is here. Britain, India and China turn out beautiful engineers but the economy has historically been unable to use them all. We have benefitted from this brain drain since WWII. It may or may not continue. But don't kid yourself that only uneducated unskilled camposinos want to get here.

Lumberjack: I guess I hadn't paid any

attention to Akagi before...

"... Akagi regurlarly gets blown out of the water here, but does NOT seem to realize it."

Sounds a lot like wobbie and kob and halD. Maybe akagi should be on the DNRR (Do Not Read or Respond) List along with wobbie and his little pals. :-)






immigration
Savage:

No that wasn't my point only the working class want to get in. My point is that if you look at the sources of immigrants to the US most are from the underdeveloped world--now you can have an MBA and still be from a very poor country. Again, you just don't find too many Swedes trying to break the door down to get in to the US

Taft it goes WAY beyond that
You (as well as almost ever