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Wednesday, October 31, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
The third party temptation discredits its candidates (and their ideas)
by Michael Medved
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The persistent American fascination with third parties and fringe candidates defies every lesson of history, logic, human nature and common sense. No minor party candidate has ever won the presidency or, for that matter, even come close. For the most part, these ego-driven “independent” adventures in electoral narcissism push the political process further away from their professed goals, rather than advancing their agendas or ideas.

Nevertheless, a clear majority of Americans (58%) in September, 2007, told the Gallup Poll that the two major parties “do such a poor job that a third major party is needed”, while only 39% agree with a statement that the established parties “do an adequate job of representing the American people.” A Rasmussen Survey (May, 2007) produced similar results, with 58% agreeing with the statement that “it would be good for the United States if there were a truly competitive third party,” and only 23% disagreeing. Among religious conservatives, prominent leaders talk openly of backing a kamikaze candidate if Rudy Giuliani becomes the GOP nominee, and a Rasmussen telephone survey shows a striking 27% of Republicans willing to back a “Pro Life Third Party” in the event that the former New York Mayor heads the ticket. In his illiterate and all-but-unreadable new book “Independents Day,” CNN’s fatuous fraud Lou Dobbs expresses similar eagerness to abandon the traditional two-party system. “Now I don’t know about you,” he harrumphs, “but fundamentally I don’t see much of a difference between Republicans and Democrats…The creation of a third, independent choice, one that has the concerns of American working people as its basis, is the way we must proceed.”

This unquenchable enthusiasm for new parties and marginal, ego-driven candidacies rests on a foundation of profound ignorance and unassailable historical illiteracy. Even a nodding acquaintance with the American past reveals uncomfortable but incontrovertible facts about independent or minor party campaigns.

1. ON A NATIONAL BASIS, THIRD PARTIES ALWAYS LOSE – AND RUIN THE CAREERS OF THE LEADING PARTICIPANTS.

Consider the fate of the Bonkers Billionaire, Ross Perot, the most formidable minor party candidate of the last 95 years. In 1992, against Bill Clinton and George H. W. Bush, he invested millions of dollars from his personal fortune and drew an impressive 18.9% of the popular tally (though he failed to win even a single electoral vote). Four years later, he tried again but more than half of his former supporters abandoned him, and he polled a scant 8.4%. The “Reform Party” he had assembled as a personal vehicle for his quixotic quest quickly collapsed when Perot lost interest in it: in 2000, “Pitchfork Pat” Buchanan claimed the party’s nomination and drew a spectacularly pathetic 0.4% -- even fellow-fringie Ralph Nader topped his vote total by an astonishing ratio of six-to-one. If anyone today recalls Ross Perot and the Reform Party they do so only as a punch-line, or as a factor in allowing Bill Clinton to win the White House twice without ever winning a majority of the popular vote. Perot’s credibility as a political commentator all but evaporated in the wake of his campaigns --- and Buchanan’s stature also suffered major damage even after his return to the Republican fold to back Bush in 2004.

Other conservatives similarly destroyed once-promising careers with their third party obsessions. Howard Phillips, twice elected President of the Student Council at Harvard, qualified as a rising Republican star when he headed two federal agencies in the Nixon administration. In 1992, however, he succumbed to the temptation of running for President as candidate of the “US Taxpayers Party” (later re-branded as the “Constitution Party.”), and then ran again in ’96 and 2000. Each of these pompous and preachy campaigns drew less than 0.2% and made him an irrelevant (though incurably self-righteous) annoyance to the conservative movement.

Time and again, prominent leaders wasted their time and shattered their reputations with their third party misadventures. Henry A. Wallace, the supremely charismatic and widely admired Vice President of the United States (1941-45), ran as the standard bearer of the leftist “Progressive Party” in 1948, and won a surprisingly paltry 2.4% -- not nearly enough to damage the re-election drive of his arch-rival, Harry Truman. Former President Martin Van Buren drew a humiliating 10% as a “Free Soil” candidate in 1848 (eight years after leaving the White House), and in 1856 another former president, Millard Fillmore, drew 22% as the anointed champion of the anti-immigrant “Know Nothing” or “American Party”; as a result of their fringe-party escapades, both one-time chief executives ended their careers in embarrassment.

Even Theodore Roosevelt, a wildly popular ex-president and war hero, damaged his national standing when he launched his ill-fated “Bull Moose” campaign in 1912. Yes, TR managed the best showing for any third party candidate in American history—with 27% of the popular vote and 88 electoral votes. But he still finished 15% behind the victorious Woodrow Wilson (a man he thoroughly despised), while falling a full 177 votes short of earning an electoral college majority. After his long, bitterly frustrating campaign to return to the White House (capped by receiving a bullet in the chest from a would-be assassin during a campaign speech in Milwaukee), TR dropped his association with the “Bull Moose” Progressives and scuttled back toward the Republican Party. Fuming with impatience during eight years of Wilsonian rule, he dreamed of making a last run for the White House – as a Republican—and might well have won his party’s nomination in 1920 except for his untimely death at age 60 in January, 1919.

While not even a larger than life, Mt. Rushmore figure like Teddy Roosevelt could shake the third party curse when it came to a presidential race, some prominent independent candidates have defied the odds and won state-wide elections from time to time. Professional wrestler Jesse Ventura came to power as Minnesota’s governor in 1998, winning a three-way race as the “Reform Party” (and later, “Independence Party” candidate), but his stalled, ineffectual governance (with no party colleagues in the legislature to support him) made him a one-term wonder. On a similar note, James Buckley (brother of the great conservative intellectual William Buckley) won a stunning electoral upset in 1970 as the Conservative Party candidate for US Senate against a liberal Democrat and a liberal Republican. Buckley, however, also lasted only one term: he lost his re-election bid (even though he ran this time as candidate of both the Conservative Party AND the GOP) in a crushing landslide to moderate Democrat Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Other minor party “success stories” in races for Governor, Senator, House of Representatives, or mayor, proved similarly short-lived – even among the surging Populists of the 1890’s. In 1896, they reached a high water mark with 21 seats in the House of Representatives (compared to 204 Republicans and 113 Democrats), but just two years later their representation plummeted to four. By 1902, just six years removed from their glory days, the Populists elected not a single member of Congress—and never again made serious races for federal office.

2. NO, THE REPUBLICANS NEVER CONSTITUED A THIRD PARTY

Whenever I take the time on the radio to discuss the obvious and inevitable futility of minor party campaigns, some smug caller will try to play “gotcha” by reminding me that my own beloved GOP began its political life as a minor party, and managed to elect an underdog nominee named Lincoln in the fateful election pf 1860. It makes for a good story, and I know it allows misled minions to feel better to believe that it’s true, but the Republicans never operated as a third party. By the time of the first Republican County Convention (in Ripon, Wisconsin, on March 20, 1854) the Whig Party had already collapsed and shattered, hopelessly divided between its Northern anti-slavery branch and the Southern “Cotton Whigs.” Refugees (including numerous Congresmen, Senators and others) from the Whig debacle determined to fill the vacuum and, joined by a few anti-slavery Democrats and former Free Soilers, they launched their new national organization.

The first time candidates ever appeared on ballots with the designation of the new Republican Party came with the Congressional elections of 1854 and the fresh organization won stunning success from the very beginning. That very first year the Republicans won the largest share of the House of Representatives (108 seats, compared to 83 for the Democrats, along with fifteen Senate seats (including the majority of those contested in that election). In other words, the Republicans began their existence not as a third party, or even a second party, but as the instantly dominant party on the ballot. The future “Grand Old Party” showed itself a Grand Young Party not only with its Congressional candidates, but with its first-ever Presidential nominee – John C. Fremont – in 1856. Rather than making the traditional, pointless and masturbatory third party gesture and winning 2% or 10%, Fremont made a real race of it against the Democrat James Buchanan: losing the popular vote 45% to 33%, and the electoral vote, 174 to 118. The real third party candidate was former President Fillmore, whose anti-immigrant Know Nothing campaign drew a few remnants of the Whigs and took just enough votes away from Fremont in New Jersey and Pennsylvania to give Buchanan narrow victories and the electoral majority. By the time they nominated Lincoln four years later, Republicans commanded clear majorities in nearly all the northern states and fully expected to sweep more than enough of those states (especially in light of Democratic divisions) to put him in the White House.

. In the pre-Civil War election of 1860, the Republicans hardly represented an upstart third party effort: they won a clear majority of 59% of the electoral vote and a comfortable plurality (40%) of the popular vote. The real “third party” in this election involved the Southern Democrats who abandoned their national nominee, Stephen A. Douglas, and campaigned for Vice President (and future Confederate general) John C. Breckinridge, winning 18% of the popular vote and 72 electoral votes. Meanwhile, former Cotton Whigs and pro-union Democrats from border states launched a fourth party campaign, winning 13% of the popular vote and 39 electoral votes for their man.

In other words, the one election in which the traditional two-party system broke down, and the Untied States most resembled a European multi-party system (with four different parties drawing substantial support and electoral votes) happened to be the one election that provoked the bloodiest war in US history.

In short, the election of 1860 hardly offers proof of the positive value of third (and fourth) parties, but rather illustrates their dangers. The four-way competition in the Presidential race contributed to the splitting of the union and the explosion of the national party consensus that had previously kept a divided assemblage of very different states from flying apart.

3. IT’S EASIER TO BUILD A MAJORITY WITHIN A SINGLE PARTY THAN TO WIN OVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY

The essence of political success – whether based in the real world of the electoral mainstream or even in the fantasy land of third party purists – involves persuading enough people to vote for you or your point of view so that you’re actually able to win elections.

In this context, it makes no sense whatever to believe that it’s somehow easier to reach and convince the large number of voters in a general election than to convince the relatively small number of voters in party primaries.

In general elections, any new party faces huge challenges getting on the ballot, raising money, earning press attention and competing with the established parties in terms of substance or credibility.

Primary elections, on the other hand, provide far more openings for challenging and orthodox candidates and ideas. In part, it’s a simple matter of arithmetic. Typically, primaries draw only about one fourth the voters as general elections. The self-identified partisans typically represent only about one-third of registered voters (with another third in the other party, and another third unaffiliated or independent). Meanwhile, general elections always draw much higher turnouts than primaries – so the same number of committed supporters who could bring victory in a primary will fall far short of a majority (or even a plurality) in the general election.

This simple but obvious logic obliterates the most frequent justification for third parties: the claim that we’re “shut out” of one (or both) of the established parties so we have no choice but to run an insurgent, independent campaign. But the question is if you don’t have enough support to win a party primary, how will you ever draw enough backing to beat the far more formidable competition (among a far larger group of voters) in the general election?

If you can’t mount a persuasive campaign for the Republican or Democratic nomination, how can any rational politico expect to conduct a successful campaign among the voters at large?

These questions count as particularly pertinent concerning presidential campaigns. Because of the disproportionate importance of small state contests in Iowa and New Hampshire, a candidate can conceivably assure himself the nomination with a tiny number of votes: in a split field, a combined total of 100,000 backers can easily carry the day in either major party. In 1992, Ross Perot almost certainly could have won the Democratic (or perhaps even the Republican) contest in independent-minded New Hampshire, and gone on to become the nominee of a major party and (heaven help us) President of the United States.

If you mean to mobilize an army of committed activists to advance your political prospects, it’s inarguably more plausible to do so in specific primary states than in general election contests in fifty separate states all across the continent.

Consider the baleful example of Pat Buchanan, who enjoyed some primary success as a protest candidate against President George H.W. Bush in 1992, and then actually won the GOP New Hampshire primary (in a tight three way race with Bob Dole and Lamar Alexander) in 1996. As a Republican, Pitchfork Pat managed to mobilize “The Buchanan Brigades” and to draw literally hundreds of thousands of supporters (if not a majority). When he left the party in 2000, however, his appeal quickly disintegrated, and the hard-core of enthusiasts that had made him competitive in Republican primaries counted for nothing in the general election (and yes, 0.4% -- despite taking $12 million of federal campaign funds – counts as just about nothing).

4. RECENT CHANGES IN THE NOMINATION PROCESS HAVE MADE THIRD PARTY CHALLENGES LESS NECESSARY, NOT MORE SO

The classic justification for any candidate to walk out of his party and to launch an independent bid involves the charge that arrogant bosses have blocked his path to the nomination and thwarted the will of the people.

That claim clearly animated Theodore Roosevelt’s powerful Third Party challenge in 1912. The former president had become disillusioned with the conservative policies of his hand-picked successor, William Howard Taft, and battled him in all available primaries. TR won handily almost everywhere, with majorities in Illinois, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, California, Maryland and Pennsylvania. He even won a landslide victory in Taft’s home state of Ohio. Nevertheless, Taft loyalists controlled the credentials committee at the GOP convention in Chicago and seated just enough of their supporters to re-nominate the President. Furious at the transparent defiance of the clear popular preference for TR, the former president walked out of his party and summoned his own “Bull Moose” convention to seal his third party nomination some six weeks later, instantly assuring easy victory for Democrat Woodrow Wilson.

Fifty-six years later another Chicago convention raised similar issues for Democrats at the height of the Vietnam era. Anti-war candidates Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy had won every primary between them; Vice President Hubert Humphrey, the loyalist choice of embattled president Lyndon Johnson, never bothered to contest a single one of the primary states. Nevertheless, after Kennedy’s assassination, Humphrey won the nomination (while bloody riots convulsed the streets of Chicago) because of his solid support from the party establishment.

After this nightmarish experience in 1968, the Democrats chartered “the McGovern Commission” to open up and reform the nomination process, and the Republicans soon followed suit. Never again could a candidate become his party’s standard bearer without competing in primaries; never again could a group of bosses in a “smoke filled room” (or even today in a politically correct fern-filled room) choose a nominee who hadn’t battled his way through dozens of well-publicized electoral battles in various corners of the country. The new openness of the primary process provided a number of bizarre surprises: like the 1976 nomination (and ultimate election) of an obscure, one-term Governor of Georgia named Jimmy Carter.

The new importance of primaries also facilitated the abrupt ideological shifts that third party advocates invariably demand. In 1964, for instance, the process had loosened up enough to allow conservative grass-roots activists in the GOP the throw out the “Eastern Republican Establishment” and nominate outspoken conservative Barry Goldwater. To signal the depth of the change he heralded, Goldwater’s acceptance speech explicitly rejected the party’s traditional centrism, with its ringing declaration: “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Eight years later, the Democrats experienced a similar transformation, when the anti-war left took over the party with the nomination of George (“Come Home, America!”) McGovern and trumpeted its thoroughgoing contempt for the moderate establishment.

Finally, in 1976 conservative ideologues rallied behind Ronald Reagan and brought his challenge to incumbent President Gerald Ford within a few convention votes of success. Four years later, the Reaganites swept to victory, capturing the whole machinery of the Republican Party—and demonstrating that with today’s nomination process, true believers who disdain compromise and equivocation can not only nominate their candidates of choice but shift the ideological orientation of our great political parties.

The old argument that party bosses stymie insurgent or issues-driven campaigns no longer applies to political reality– not in an era when campaigns in both parties cater so obviously to enthusiastic activists who dominate the early primaries.

5. FRINGE PARTIES GENERALLY DISCREDIT RATHER THAN ADVANCE THE ISSUES THEY EMBRACE

Apologists for minor parties regularly defend their odd-ball activism with the claim that they’re gradually, inexorably building support for their unconventional ideas. The Libertarian Party in particular insists that it’s made steady progress for its philosophy of limited government with its thirty years of tireless campaigning.

In fact, the electoral record shows dramatic deterioration in the party’s electoral appeal rather than any discernable increase in influence, as the once trendy Libertarians have morphed into the goofy and sophomoric Losertarians. The Party reached its all-time peak of success with its second major Presidential campaign under Ed Clark in 1980. Running against Ronald Reagan, Clark drew 921,000 votes and a rousing 1.06% of the electorate. The next time out, the Libertarians did barely half as well and after that the party’s fortunes continued to slide. In 2000, Libertarian nominee Harry Browne won only 0.36% and in 2004, the hapless Michael Badnarik did even worse, with less than 0.33%.

In other words, after a quarter of century or propaganda and party-building, the Libertarians succeeded in alienating two thirds of their never significant support – looking back on their 1% showing of twenty-seven years ago as a matchless achievement that’s never even come close to replication.

The traditional definition of insanity involves repeating the same self-destructive actions again and again but somehow expecting a more beneficial result. After twenty-four years of frustration, futility, and consistent public rejection, on what basis do Losertarians suddenly expect a brighter future?

Among the faceless cavalcade of Libertarian losers, one of their Presidential candidates manages to stand out – not because of his strong showing (he drew only 0.47% of the vote) but because he drew the right message from his embarrassing experience. Texas obstetrician Ron Paul carried the fringe-party’s banner in 1988 but soon thereafter returned to the Republican Party, won election to Congress, and conducted a dynamic and much publicized campaign for the GOP Presidential nomination in 2008. Dr. Paul garnered vastly more attention for his ideals and proposals as a contender for the Republican nomination than he ever did as the Libertarian nominee—a living demonstration of the ill-considered idiocy of fringe party campaigns.

Rather than advancing unconventional ideas, fringe parties most often discredit them through association with quirky political organizations far outside the political mainstream. The Prohibition Party, for instance, took opponents of alcohol out of the major parties and concentrated them in a marginal political organization which, during 134 years of fielding candidates, elected one Congressman from California (1914) and one Governor of Florida (1916) but almost nothing else. In terms of Presidential politics, the party managed its best showing ever in 1892 (2.25%), some 27 years before temperance advocates finally succeeded in achieving Prohibition through the 18th Amendment to the Constitution. Predictably, Republicans – rather than members of the Prohibition Party actually were the effective leaders in bringing about this historic change. The Prohibition platform succeeded, in other words, only when true-believers entered one of the established parties, leaving the fringe party and watching its electoral support decline.

By the same token, Populists saw meaningful progress for their national agenda only after the party largely collapsed and its most gifted members migrated into the Democratic Party beginning in 1896. Somehow, even crack-pot ideas (like the bizarre Populist obsession with “Free Silver”) look less menacing when they’re advocated by leaders of a well-established political organization rather than by a turbulent fringe group.

6. YOU CAN’T INFLUENCE A PARTY BY LEAVING IT

One of the most bizarre arguments for third parties involves the suggestion that walking out of one of the established parties will force it to move in your direction.

This reasoning constitutes sheer madness, of course: what sort of maniac honestly believes that he’ll exert greater impact on a political organization after he’s abandoned his membership?

In 2000, when Pat Buchanan abandoned the Republicans for his disastrous “Reform Party” race (in which he selected an LA teacher with his history of mental disability as his running mate), he took with him some of his fellow GOP advocates of a more protectionist trade policy. The result, predictably enough, was a Republican Party more unanimous than ever in support of free trade. Why should Republicans take protectionist arguments more seriously when the few supporters of such arguments have already left the party?

Party walk-outs don’t produce some sudden desire for reconciliation any more than marital walk-outs serve to strengthen a fraying relationship. When a faction abandons its major party home, it’s rarely welcomed back into the fold – especially when the party disloyalty has produced a major defeat. Take the case of Ralph Nader, for instance, with his incontestably destructive impact on Al Gore’s 2000 Presidential bid: even if the gadfly wanted to re-enter the Democratic Party, the deep resentment of his role in the election of George W. Bush would make it impossible for him to assume a position of respect or influence.

7. LOSING CAMPAIGNS DON’T SHAPE GOVERNANCE OR POLICY

For third party purists, rejection by the general public confirms their sense of moral superiority and martyrdom: winning 0.03% with uncompromising principles feels somehow nobler than winning an election through the normal compromises and actually changing the direction of politics. In this sense, fringe party activism represents the ultimate in masturbatory politics: giving intense pleasure and passing thrills to the individual participants but exerting no impact whatever on anyone else.

On those rare occasions when third parties play some decisive role in close elections, they almost always damage the candidates who more closely resemble the independent contenders. Former Republican Ross Perot, for example, destroyed Republican President George H.W. Bush, leftist Ralph Nader damaged Al Gore, and “limited government” Libertarian Senate candidates in Montana, Washington, Georgia and other states recently swung elections to big government Democrats (and in 2006 tilted at least three close elections to give Harry Reid his one-vote Senate majority).

By taking votes from the major party contender who’s ideologically most similar, and rewarding those opponents who agree with them the least, independent candidates move the political process away from their professed goals, not toward them.

Most Americans have come to understand this cruel and dangerous game, so that even the most ballyhooed fringe candidates fail to live up to their promising poll numbers. In 1980, moderate Republican John Anderson believed the surveys and pundits who said he could establish himself as a middle-of-the-road alternative to the outspoken conservative Ronald Reagan and the failed liberal standard-bearer, Jimmy Carter. In the end, Anderson drew only 6.6%, fading fast in the last days before the election as the American people began to focus on the true stakes in the choice before them.

This pattern repeats itself in almost every election: even the most intriguing third-party flirtations abruptly turn sour in the “getting serious” phase that precedes a final decision. With an evenly divided electorate providing see-saw victories for Democrats and Republicans, an individual can change history far more readily by voting for one of the major candidates than by giving his support to a laughably irrelevant fringy. A shift of 0.5% can alter the outcome of many elections, but it changes nothing if a Constitution Party candidate gets 0.7% vs. 0.2%.

In this context, the American people remain too sensible to accept the fulminations of brain-dead blowhards like Lou Dobbs. “All that seems to remain of the Republican and Democratic parties is their partisanship, their labels, and their records of intransigence and ineffectiveness over the past forty years.” Over the past forty years, Mr. Dobbs? Since 1967? The Reagan Revolution, which won the Cold War and slashed top tax rates from 70% to 28%, represented only “intransigence and ineffectiveness”? Welfare reform and balanced budgets, achieved by the Gingrich Congress in collaboration with the administration of Bill Clinton, amounted to nothing more than “partisanship”?

Third party purists say they refuse to accept a choice between “the lesser of two evils” – a wretchedly misleading line that suggests that any public servant with whom we disagree is, indeed, evil and not merely wrong. In truth, very few working politicians, Republican or Democrat, honestly qualify as “evil”: the need for winning and retaining office won’t eliminate all mediocrities, but almost always rids us of any truly malevolent individuals. The notion that electoral opponents constitute “evil” of any kind – either the lesser or greater variety – serves only to poison our politics, and to prevent mature choices between major party candidates who, while invariably flawed, give us a chance to serve our country by selecting the better of two imperfects.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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EXCELLENT COLUMN! Well said.

Now let's see where this goes, and how many "you know who" will be blasting this thread. Hmmmm?



There is only one way
to change the two party system, vote your conscience. I am a Republican, but in 2006 I voted a straight third party ticket rather than stay home. I actually felt liberated because I knew that when third party votes go up, the main parties have to take notice. Call it a 'protest vote' if you want to, but I couldn't vote for the lesser of two evils. This year I will be voting for Ron Paul whether he is on the ballot or not because he actually made me believe again after a few years of disillusionment. I don't think that voting against your beliefs just so the other guy doesn't win is an honest democracy. Not voting against Hillary will be hard because I don't want her to win... at all... but voting for a 'bomb first' Republican is not something that I can do either.

You're kidding, right?
Calling third party candidates "ego-driven"? You've got to be kidding. That's one of the most hypocritical things you can say. You're saying the Democrats and Republicans aren't ego-driven in any way, just the fringe or 3rd party candidates? And other parties putting forth ideas on ways to make our country better is..."pushing the political process away from their professed goals"? And who determines what those goals are, Mr. Medved? You?

Anne, what do you mean by "blasting" this article? Do you mean others will disagree with his views? Oh dear, we can't have that! How can anyone dare to to disagree with what he said? No, no, no, no. We must all learn not to disagree with whoever has the majority on their side, right?

This is just another article that uses the same arguments to say the same thing:

"You must vote for one of the two major parties or you're a [insert current, popular derogatory name]. If you're not happy with one of the two major parties then too bad, because any other option is a waste of our time and has no effect."

Look, if you disagree with someone's politics, fine. Debate those political ideas and why you think you're right and they're wrong. Back it up with logical arguments coupled with facts. Vote for the candidate that best supports your political views and philosophy.

But why bash people because of the political party they support? Should all third parties just be banned by law so we can get over this problem? Is that what people like Medved want?

I don't get it. There are many different political views out there. Let's debate them, instead of focusing on what "team" the views are coming from.

Shameful Anne
If you can't see that something is broken with the current system, you have blinders on. The Dems ran in 2006 on getting us out of Iraq and lowering gas prices, what do we have? We are in Iraq as deeply as ever and gas is nearing new highs. They also promised numerous other reforms in the way congress is run and have already reversed field on those. The Republicans have always run on smaller government and spending rose faster than ever during the Bush (and Repub Congress) years. Do you remember Bush the first saying "No new taxes"? It is time some of these bozos were held accountable.

premature discussion
While this *would* be an important consideration during a general election, at this stage of the game -- during a primary -- it feels more like an attempt to bully people into not voting their conscience. But a primary is precisely the time to vote your conscience in order to let your party know where *you* stand, and where you think it *should* stand.

If 3, then 4
I'm hoping that if Dr. Paul mounts a 3rd party run (he seems the likliest person so do so), that Mr. Kucinic will do likewise, making 4 candidates...kinda even up the playing field.

MrNOBODY: Outlaw 3rd parties? Seriously? Have you thought that through? Why not outlaw 2nd parties. Works for Hugo Chavez.

3rd Party Temptation
Perhaps it is because "The People" (58%...?) know that both major parties defy every lesson of history, logic, human nature, and common sense.
Third party choice at this time is a clarion call to shake the two parties up at this time. Will it have the desired effect? That being; sound government that adheres to the Constitution. I truly do not know. Yet it does make more sense (Logic???)than the tradgedy of revolt.
Perhaps Mr. Medved, you yourself are simply out of touch with the effects of everyday life that the workings of our so-called government has had and is having upon our lives? I for one, am sick of the filth foisted down our throats from the so-called elites (TRASH) of both major parties.
These major parties have declared war upon the working people of this country. Their path is not mine.

Informative column
Like Anne, I think this was well thought through and well written. I don't agree with every single point, but I think Medved (who is by far NOT my favorite columnist) did an excellent job of capturing the challenges and impacts of third parties.

During the summer, before Fred Thompson declared his candidacy, he was publicly talked about almost the way people talk about a third party -- as something (or someone) to "save us" from the other two parties. But as much as I like Fred, he has quickly become nothing special since declaring his candidacy and competing with other GOP contenders.

It's the conservatives who want a third party, not the liberals. Yet we have two pretty conservative candidates running. One is Ron Paul (also not my favorite). A few people adore him; many people label him a loony. Duncan Hunter is the other. He IS my personal favorite, yet he obviously hasn't caught the attention of the public and I don't know why.

I also don't know why these two conservatives aren't good enough as candidates. I will vote for Hunter in the primary. He will undoubtedly lose. Then, I will be forced to compromise in the general election. Do I think a third party would save us from all this? No, I don't. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't. We alrady have two very conservative candidates and neither can make it to first tier. That OUGHT to say something about the HUGE Republican population in this country that is, apparently, not uber uber conservative.

If you are not voting to win...
...then you are wasting your time at the ballot.

My God, there are people here writing about how voting 3rd Party makes them FEEL!

What the heck is all that about? Voting is not some psychobabble reaffirmation of your inner well being. The equivalent of meditation followed by a drumming session around a fire with people in various stages of dress humming and chanting.

Ah, but you are sending a message with your 3rd party "protest" vote, huh?

Let me ask you something. Do you suppose on January 20, 1993 the Clintons entered the White House and said to themselves, "Yeah, we won...but a lot of people voted for Perot. Maybe we should modify our agenda based on the enormity of that protest vote and what it means to us?"

Do you think that is what happens? A third party vote only helps elect the candidate who is LEAST like you to office. That's it.

Discredited Candidates
Indeed Michael, who in fact actually needs or wants a candidate that would, without equivocation, acutally have the sovereignty of this nation and the welfare of our citizenry as their top priorities. Who would support such a cretan to begin with, right?

Hope springs eternal for 2012. The powers that be in the RNC are losing sleep at night out of desperation to front a candidate who actually believes the Constitution is something other than a rotting piece of parchment.

BS
"Third party purists say they refuse to accept a choice between “the lesser of two evils” – a wretchedly misleading line that suggests that any public servant with whom we disagree is, indeed, evil and not merely wrong. In truth, very few working politicians, Republican or Democrat, honestly qualify as “evil”: the need for winning and retaining office won’t eliminate all mediocrities, but almost always rids us of any truly malevolent individuals."

First off we tried this and it has gotten us nowhere. Most importantly the only politicians that are considered by Medved is the Big GOVERNMENT Imperialists. That is why interest groups are scurrying over the big globs of money. No Mike Federalism is the answer. The reason we have polarization is because most people who care about politics are not in the middle. How can you not be apathetic and not have a consistent ideology. The majority of the people in the middle are confused, ignorant, and the smart ones are just disallusioned. In the midst of this confusion everything becomes a Federal Democracy. The limited government far right is asking for Federalism and a limited republic. If you live in a liberal state live like a liberal, if you live in a red state act like a Red, if you live in a conservative state act conservative. The reason we are so polarized and angry is because all of these decisions are made on a Federal level, either this or that. It has made federal representatives more uniform and thus less representative of their districts. People are mad, and don't act like the answer is in the lukewarm apathetic middle.

Medved the hack
I would strongly suggest to the inordinately pompous and self-righteous Mr. Medved that he read George Washington's Farewell Address. To his own shock, me might learn something. I also would remind Mr. Medved of the tenet central to his beloved GOP credo: COMPETITION.

You Miss the Point Michael
There is no constitutional basis or need for the rise of the political parties; the parties are the factions Madison warned of, and they were constituted as a way of allowing the people running for office to control the elections and thereby the results of those elections. All you have to do to see this is to look at the threats being made by the national parties against individual states for presuming to exercise their constitutional duty to hold elections when and as they see fit.

The division of our politics into two parties was not intended by the founding fathers, and the fact that those two parties, by controlling the system and deciding who is and is not a viable candidate, have to date been successful in stopping any third party candidate from winning an election, does not validate your claims that a third party is undesirable. Indeed, given the caliber of the candidates regularly put forward by the Democrats and the Republicans, a third party is desperately needed.

Before you write off the potential for a winning candidacy not affiliated with either major party, we should pry the controls out of the hands of those most at risk from a third party candidate and see just how serious a run such a candidate can make on a level playing field.

THE CONSTITUTION
The Constitution,in order to avoid Tyranny,must be viewed as a PROTEST document.The reason the Constitution exist,is so that the people can keep a check on their government.When the ability to check the government is Lost,Stolen or Destroyed,the people must establish a NEW government.A "THIRD PARTY" is an attempt to reformulate "US" government,without REVOLUTION.The PEOPLE are crying for FAIR GOVERNMENT,and "LET THEM EAT CAKE" is not WORKING!A People will cry only so long.We should all be sensitive, to the moment, in which the CRYING STOPS!Less than a 29% approval rating for Congress and I won't even guess about Mr. Bush,says "US" have a PROBLEM.Michael the People are WAKING-UP.Houston we have a LIFT-OFF,sounds better than,HOUSTON "US" have a PROBLEM.Tell the "BOYS",THE CONSTITUTION IS COMING!!!

As Anne alluded to...
Yes Anne you will have to wait until we get some hard results to see just how screwed you Big GOVERNMENT apologists are. Because most Paul supporters and a few other supporters for even pro war and pro life groups are not going to play the three card monty game anymore, where we are supposed to get crumbs but when the grifter lifts his shell there is nothing for a conservative, no limited government.

Also the other thing is that these grifters run on small government and conservative principles and then they stab us in the back.

Medved
This is the same guy who would have us believe we have no choice but to give amnesty to illegal aliens. And that there is nothing to the SPP. He is a paid shill of the cheap labor express. Medved wants to get you in line to vote for Rudy as heis the designated hitter for the cheap labor importers. I'm not going to vote for that. I will vote for Hunter in the primaries. If any of the other GOP candidates are the nominee, I will be voting GOP. If it is a choice between New York liberal A or B (R or D), I will vote third party, or write in a candidate of my choice. I will not endorse giving up my country without a fight.

Citizen Carrier
I disagree with your whole thought process.

First of all, voting for a candidate only because they have a better chance of winning means you might have to abandon a great many things you believe in. And that idea creates a vicious circle, because every election that same argument is trotted out, that if you vote for a party other than one of the two major parties your vote is wasted. I guess it depends on what people mean by a "wasted vote". If you mean my vote is wasted because I vote for a third party, whereas your vote counts "more" than mine, then I say that's wrong.

Lew Rockwell has a great article, backed up by math, debunking the idea of a "wasted vote".

However, the opinion that a "wasted vote" is any vote cast for a third party will just dismiss the article outright.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/hooper1.html

Secondly, you act as though everyone just needs to be robots, not feel good about their vote, and just vote for one of the two major parties simply because they have a greater chance of winning. I think THAT is a wasted vote.

Thirdly, many of us don't think of our vote as a "protest". We genuinely believe in the political ideas put forth by whoever we vote for. Why is that so wrong? Just because we're in the minority?

I guess it's two seperate ways of looking at a vote. You see voting for a party that has no chance of winning as a losing proposition, therefore don't do it, suck it up and vote for one of the major party candidates.

Some of us see it differently. We vote for the ideas we feel are right, what we believe in. And to many of us there's no greater thing than to be able to do that.

Do You Want To Keep Your Country?

Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. We must elect a President who WILL secure the border and enforce the laws. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

If the GOP thinks they can continue to import cheap labor for their donors at the expense of the citizens, they will. I will not vote for that again. If we continue to play the game of "the other guy is worse", we will lose our country. Sorry, but I will not participate in that game any longer. The GOP power brokers think we will vote for "anybody but a Democrat" so they can continue to ignore securing the borders and enforcing the laws. I'm hoping GOP primary voters give the party elites some surprises in the primaries. The levers of power and the money in the GOP are all in the hands of the cheap labor express. They do not want Duncan Hunter as the candidate. He WOULD enforce the laws and secure the border. WE have to make him the nominee by voting in the primaries. We have to talk to our friends and neighbors about him. He is not going to get media coverage. It's going to have to be a grass roots effort. I WANT to vote for a GOP candidate in Nov.'08, I WILL NOT vote for any of the amnesty supporters. If it takes crushing the GOP so a new party representing American citizens can arise, so be it.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Last-Ditch Fanatics
The glassy-eyed maniacs who decry any departure from the purity of their personal agendas are the foot soldiers of crackpots like Runt Paul and Dennis Kook-Sin-Itch.Fortunately they are few in number (most of them post regularly on TH). In a democracy no one gets anywhere near 100% of what they want. People are elected and legislation is written and passed by including as many people as possible, not blindly shutting people out. A coalition that includes Neo-Cons, Business Conservatives and Social Conservatives and, yes, the dreaded Moderates, can only be effective if each member's interests are considered. That is reality, no matter what George Washington said in his farewell address. Radical, revolutionary change is only possible if events demand it or violent means are used to impose it. These odd-lotters are living in a dream world.

skep41
The Ron Paul "fanatics" are calling for Federalism. What is so crazy and kooky about federalism. Why does everything I do from cradle to grave have to regulated at the federal level and how is that conservative? Are you against a limited Republic? Do you know why the founders abhorred a Federal Democracy? We are seeing the reasons right now.

The only way the libertarians can force you how to live is if they control your Federal, State, and local government. If they control the federal government, or at least have a veto, then it empowers the states. That is what conservatives used to be for. There is nothing more tolerant than that, "moderates" should flock to it, but unfortunately not enough people have a handle on the concept of jurisdiction.

Reality
Yes,for us odd-lotters, it is profoundly delusional for us to expect that anything will change unless we do our part to perpetuate the status quo. That would be the Orwellian reality.

The plebiscite belongs to each citizen to use as they see fit. Too many have given their "last full measure of devotion" to make it so. That is the reality.

Third Parties should not be banned
The people involved in third party movements have a constitutional right to their stupidity.

It's just so dog-goned frustrating to read their stupid rhetoric or listen to their sophomoric rants.

There! Got that out of my system! Third Parties are a hopeless attempt at idealism that can never effectively change anything. The last SUCCESSFUL "third-party movement" was led by Ronald Reagan and because it took place WITHIN the GOP, the Republican Party ceased being a party of blue-blood social liberals interested in maintaining the status quo and was transformed into being the party of the common man... AND a majority party.

Liberty Dave
If we acknowledge the historical fact that third party candidates do not win elections, we must concede that voting third party is the equivalent to abandoning EVERY thing I believe in by conceding the election to the candidate who least agrees with me.

You stated that doing "comparison shopping", as my position could be called, I would have to abandon or concede some of my beliefs. Some, not all.

Conceding the election to a Hillary or Obama is a betrayal of ALL my beliefs, not some or a few.

For example, I do not agree with everything Bush does. None of us do. But getting Alito and Roberts in the SCOTUS was not a betrayal of my beliefs. It was an affirmation of them.

Had we Gore or Kerry and had two more Ruth Bader Ginsburgs on the SCOTUS, in what way would that be an affirmation of my beliefs?

Unlike gift giving, in politics it is not the "thought" that counts. ACTIONS count. Or as we say in the artillery, "effects on target".

Not symbolism. Not pyrrhic victories. Not losses with honor. Not empty protest votes on a hopeless cause.

Only one of two candidates is going to the White House. I will vote for the one of those two I most agree with. Nothing else. For I MIGHT just get another Alito out of it.

In defeat, I know exactly what I'm going to get.

It's Going to Be a Dem or a Republican
When it comes to the Presidential election, it's going to be a Democrat or a Republican. Even if a third party started to develop more momentum right now, it would take years before they'd be strong enough to get a President elected. That's reality. I want someone who sticks closely to the original intent of the Constitution, especially when it comes to limiting government, but the worst GOP frontunner is better than the best Dem frontrunner, and any person who'd usually vote Republican who sits home this election or votes for a third party candidate might as well be voting for the Democrat.

http://walrus.townhall.com/g/17999c1a-9cda-4efa-a01e-241533 b5f336

Medved doesn't get it at all
because he is a Republican hack and part of the elite power structure.

Everything he said could come right out of the DEM/GOP/MSM propaganda machines which have been lying to us forever. The lie is that only they can be elected, only they have wisdom and knowledge, and because of that lie they have all voters confused.

What Medved misses is not that we want to maintain the party, who cares if there is a Republican or Democrat party? The problem is that the two parties, having a virtual lock on power, willfully ignore the Constitution and will of the people. They believe themselves invulnerable and have worked hard to assure themselves re-election. The only way to break this cycle is to elect a President not of either party.

If you want to see how we got into this mess and what we can do to get out of it, please visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. Why not? The elites have already stolen our inheritance, why not take it back this election? Is there going to be a better time? Thanks, Joe

"Illiterate" "Ignorance" ""Ego-driven"??
Mr. Medved:

Whether we should or should not have a third party in this country I do not know; I have wrestled with the dilemma myself. But I do know that your opening paragraphs are downright insulting to a lot of conscientious people. Whether your arguments against a third party are valid or not, and some probably are, you have cheapened your entire article by such denigrating remarks. I am a Republican, but I have to confess that I am getting very tired of having to choose between Democratic Party 1 and Democratic Party 2 (i.e. RHINOs). Also figuring into the equation are the small matters of conscience, conviction and morals. The "anybody but Hilary" argument is beginning to wear a little thin as the reason we should vote for anyone who labels himself as a "Republican".

Michael upset them again.
Third party advocates always get ticked when Michael points out the futility of their arguments. "I'm making a statement!" they shout, or, "My guy is bringing important issues to the table!"

Seriously, does anyone remember what Pat Buchanan said when he got spanked as a third party player? Sure the micro percent of his backers know what he said, but so what?

Hey, if voting third party gives you some etherial feeling of taking the high road...knock yourself out. But dont pretent that voting for Harry Meldinger in the presidential election is anything more than mental masturbation.

Who is Harry Meldinger you ask?...Exactly!

Two parties ...
You can vote for godless socialism or for soulless corporations.

Not much of a choice.

Sure and It's a Fine Thing Indeed
What a delight to know that the Republican hierarchy represents the interests of the common man.

Nothing is more ascendant in the eyes of our "Administration" than the welfare of our citizenry and the sovereignty of this nation. Their concern for us is down right comprehensive.

We like it, we love it, we want some more of it!

I feel a kinship with these men and women that I can scare put into words. Well actually I can, but decorum prohibits.

GOOGLE "LEO STRAUSS"
Glendower: I can call the spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come, when you do call for them?
Henry IV, Part One

Political reality. We're not starting with a blank slate. Your group is a microscopic fringe that has to move its agenda forward in coalition with like-minded people, something your candidate has renounced. I know none of us are pure enough for you but right now the problem is not whether we should implement Thomas Jefferson's philosophy but whether we can keep Hillary Clinton from implementing hers and at the same time manage a world situation which grows increasingly hostile and dangerous.

All ideas come from third parties
The two wings of the big government party produce nothing but more government. All new ideas come from third parties - good and bad. Look at the Socialist platforms of 1928. The Dem's and Rep's adopted it piece by piece over time and now most of it has been implemented (Medicine is the last major piece.) The Libertarians were championing abolition of income tax in the 80's and in the 90's the Rep's were campaigning for flat tax, now fair tax, and other major reforms. Of course, the modern Rep's don't ever accomplish anything other than provide cover for the Dem's to slip in socialism.

Also, why do you think half the nation sits out presidential elections. They don't believe there is any real choice - and they are right!

The GOP needs to collapse and a party that believes in freedom, limited government, secured borders, and a non-interventionist foreign policy can rise from the ashes.

The Rain in Spain
For those in favor of prosecuting terrorism as a criminal enterprise, which can best be fought as a mater of law enforcement, the news must have come as a surprise.

After a “sprawling trial that over the course of five months brought 29 defendants, 40 lawyers and 350 witnesses to a temporary courtroom on the outskirts of Madrid.” not even one of the three accused of organizing the attack was convicted.

In the words of the New York Times; “the verdicts underscore the difficulty of building a solid legal case against defendants suspected of playing an inspirational role in a diffuse and nonhierarchical network, rather than having direct involvement in the violence.”

Translated in plain English; the law enforcement approach has been proven, not to work.

To some of us the reason seems simple as it is obvious; a criminal court’s role is not to assure a society’s collective security. And lawyers and briefs can only do what they are supposed to do; create a fair process by which to assign blame, not to prosecute an asymmetrical war.

Courts cannot proactively disrupt the supply of weapons and funds, cannot gather and act on intelligence, cannot devise a strategy to dismantle and destroy a terrorist networks nor, can they, more importantly, protect their own soldiers and their own people from violence. Courts put away the guilty. Armed forces dissuade them from even trying.

After Nuremberg, some may want to entertain the fantasy that is possible to enforce some basic legal paradigm at a Global scale. But let’s not forget that tanks and planes made Nuremberg possible. And that, winning the war involved violating the fundamental legal rights, in particular the right to life, of several millions Nazis.

Regarding Ron Paul
Those who still think that he has "no chance" really are not paying attention to what is going on. Ron Paul has had virtually no media attention outside of the debates. His campaign up until just recently was almost entirely grassroots oriented. In the process, he has
1) placed in the top three of almost every straw poll around the country,
2) raised enough money that he is in third place for cash on hand,
3) drawn huge crowds where ever he speaks around the country,
4) attracted the largest Internet support by far of any other presidential candidate.

He appeared on Jay Leno last night where 11 million people got to hear directly from him for the first time -- many will have never even heard of him before last night. In recent polls in New Hampshire, he is showing at 7% and that is before the major radio and TV blitz he started this week. Again, most people have never heard of him due to lack of media coverage, but that is starting to change.

Will he win the nomination? It is still an uphill climb, but there is an awful lot of time between now and the end of primary season. A lot change between now and then, but his momentum is undeniable.

The debate about whether or not we should have a third party candidate may be moot. We already have a third party candidate who is threatening to derail the neo-conservative movement in the Republican party and get it back on the right track. The Constitutional and Libertarian parties have already said they would support Ron Paul's nomination should he win the primaries.

If you have been wanting to vote for change in the Republican party, here is your chance. You have a very real opportunity in Ron Paul.

Great article
First time I've read your stuff and, as a Ron Paul supporter, I must say excellent and right on the money.

One comment however that relates to your key point that Republicans must unite behind one candidate. If this is your goal, why do you keep bashing Ron Paul on your radio show? Your actions are basically pushing hundreds of thousands of voters away from the eventual nominee. Your latest venture insinuating that RP is beholden to skinheads and Nazis really pissed off a large number of Paulites. If mainstream Townhall columnists keep it up, thousands of folks like me are not going to support our nominee. This is not rocket science - just basic human nature. Do you want my vote or not? If you keep insulting RP and RP supporters, you effectively create the third party you argue against. What a pity since you seem to have such a deep understanding of how futile this is.

No third party?
It is Third Party candidates that, however temporarily painful their efforts might be, tend to inform the main stream parties that they are getting off track. Perot represented real dissatisfaction with the lack of direction of George H.W. Bush. Bush seemed to have won the White House just to sit in the chair. Unfortunately, the Republican leadership was just clueless.

Furthermore, by Medved's advice, Joe Lieberman should have just hung it up and not run in the last election when the Democrats abandoned him. That would have been a real mistake. Lieberman has been an important supporter in the War on Terror.

Anne....
Last I checked Ron Paul is running as a republican. If there is ever a time to support what you believe is the best candidate and not the lesser of evils...(sorry Google, gotta disagree with you there), it is NOW, leading up to the Republican nomination.

If the republicans nominate someone like Guliani....Hillary-lite, let the party go down in flames this election. Maybe they'll learn a lesson (but I doubt it). Had Bush lost the election, would we be much worse off? Republicans only seem to develop a fiscal responsible conscience when they are in the minority, anyhow.

Amnesty, open borders, a 2.1Trillion War on terror, Medicare, and out-of-control spending that Bush never seem to ever find that veto power he had.

Sorry, I can't afford any more compassionate conservatism.

Anne
Bashing Runt Paul and his ALCOAettes is almost an obsessive/compulsive disorder for you :)!

P.S. BTW, they RICHLY deserve it!

Citizen Carrier
I appreciate your response. You make many valid points that make a lot of sense. You don't seem to be filled with some sort of egotistical hatred for third parties like so many here.

Unfortunately, while I understand what you're saying, I can't give my vote to either Dems or Repubs because I'm too much against big government.

Georgetwin
Yes we love your insults and somebody alluded to this earlier. Not all the people that support Ron Paul are as absolutist as you guys think, naturally libertarians are going to join the fight, but what the Neoconservatives are misunderestimating is just how many regular conservatives they are turning off. The funny thing is that you guys are using the same liberal talking points that the Dems used in the 90s, their racist, they want to destroy government, they are not practical. Do you guys know how many long time conservatives you are bashing, many long time conservatives do possess a memory and remember how these attacks were used in the past and it is nothing new. It just causes more people to come to our side.

Ron Paul supporters should not try harder to be negative, we have the most positive message, and we don't need fear, or shame, or lying to sell our message and we need to realize that. Don't get mad when they call Ron an anti semite, because anybody that know about Ron knows that his main reason for getting into politics was the writing of his idol, Mises, a Jew. See how stupid it looks, we can pretty much just laugh at far reaching attacks on the sheer absurdity of their claims. We can laugh and they can keep foaming at the mouth.

Medved = Hack
Why the name calling. You clearly don't like people having a REAL choice and your argument sucks...so you resort to name calling. Well if that is how you play, You sir are an A$$!

Mel
Your comments are right on about Medved's approach to this issue.

Georgetwin
You make excellent points. I have been a Republican voter since 1992 when I first was able to cast a vote (for George Bush). I must say that recent activities by my fellow Republicans against Ron Paul have made me lean more strongly toward a third party (probably Constitutional) more than ever before.

Everyone has been saying that the Republican party is in trouble. Rally attendance and donations are down, and the American people are not as receptive as they once were. Enter Ron Paul. He is attracting a big support base from independents and disenfranchised Democrats who are coming to the Republican party because of his message. Instead of embracing this new blood into the party, they are driving them away with slanderous attacks and juvenile behavior (example: Giuliani laughing in the debates). Like others have pointed out, articles like this one are CREATING a third party.

If the Republican party cannot embrace the new blood, particularly among younger voters, then they have set themselves onto the path of irrelevancy. They have already abandoned their positions of the past, and they are rejecting the voters of their future.

Lame GOP candidates result in 3rd party
With GOP front runners in history such as Bush 41, Rudy, Mitt, etc, of course there will be a push for a 3rd party. Conservatives dread having to vot for these lame RINOs. I wonder why there was no 3rd party push in 1984???

No Compromise?
Can anybody here convincingly tell me they agree with their choice, whoever it is, on 100% of their policy positions?

No, I'm not asking you if you agree with their general philosophy on government. I'm asking how much you agree with their individual stances on individual issues. All of them.

If you can, you're either lying or borderline sychophant.

Best I've done so far, with surveys, is in the low 80% ranges with Hunter or Tancredo. That means even if I were blessed with the opportunity to vote for one of them as the GOP candidate agaisnt the Democrats, I would necessarily be sacrificing, conceding, compromising on about 20% of my issue stances.

Understand that I am perfectly willing, indeed EAGER, to do so.

So we all compromise. Every single one of us unless we are the ones who happen to be running for that office. Then we don't have to.

Do you compromise and win or do you compromise and lose?

Because the ONLY thing you cannot take out of that equation is COMPROMISE.

Citizen Carrier
I do not agree with 100% of Ron Paul's stances, though I must say that I have come far closer to agreeing with him on issues than any other candidate in a long time -- 95%, maybe more.

The key to compromise is to set a threshold of how far one is willing to bend. For some, like Dobson, that threshold is the abortion issue. For others it is foreign policy or the fiscal responsibility. Without boundaries or absolutes, you can compromise your way to destruction.

Really, this is where Ron Paul has gained my support. His absolutes line up very closely with my own which means that I can trust him not to betray the most important issues: adherence to constitutional law, personal liberties, and fiscal responsibility. These issues have been under direct attack for the last century, and it is high time that we paid more than just lip service to them.

That being said, I would actually consider supporting Tancredo should he win out the nomination over Ron Paul (not likely). None of the front runners have shown an adherence to this standard or any real desire to do so in the future. This is why I wholeheartedly support Ron Paul.

The bagman, Medved speaks
The persistent American fascination with third parties and fringe candidates defies every lesson of history, logic, human nature and common sense.
-------------------

ts:
The persistent and self righteous Medved actually believes he is the lone authority of history, logic, human nature and common sense.

Owning his elevated knowledge over all the rest of us, by preaching down his nose with a sneering self-righteous proclamation how much smarter he is than all the rest of mankind.
Saying essentially:
"You do not have any choice in this life but what I (Medved) tell you you have, get it.
If you think otherwise,then you are stupid, unlike me who is so much smarter than you all.
I alone sit on the throne of knowledge to sicern all evil, all history, all logic and will tell you what is good and evil"

He is an arrogant fool and is why the Republicans are history themselves, filled to brim with such snotty arrogance this slime ball Medved speaks for.
The two party system is what is destroying everything we all believe in.
And this fool Medved is one of the main voices to keep it on track.

As a life long conservative I will fight the republicans now just as hard as I ever did the lying democrats.

You win me as an enemy Medved, and your ilk is the last sort I want in power.
God Bless America, again.

I despise the divisions the republicans and the democrats have created and both are destroying the nation.





Ron Paul is much more than a fringe
candidate. As much as the neo- con artists want him to be, he isn't. Of course, the neo- con philosophy is based of deceiving the public. GoogleLeoStrauss, has a good user name. Every republican should google Leo Strauss, who is the source of the neo cons philosophy. He was a professor, who was studied by people like Paul Wolfowitz, and Bill Kristol. He is considered the father of neo conservative thought. He was a atheistic Jew, who believed that politicians should use religion, to control the public, and motivate them into going to war. He also believed in using fear of a common enemy to unite the public, and if there wasn't a common enemy, one should be created. So keep that in mind when these neo conservative pundits speak. Here is an audio clip of an author who wrote a book about Leo Strauss http://media.globalpublicmedia.com/RM/2005/04/CBC.SundayEd ition.ShadiaDrury-Leo%20Strauss.2005-04-10.mp3

Now flaming lib GOPs are trying to smeer
I do not know who this person is, but I am glad that I have not listened to him as I can clearly see that he would just be another disappointing supposedly conservative talk host. And so their fit is in full swing, and it will really grow worse if rudy wins as the GOP cannidate. The bottom line is we will not vote for him. Say what you want to. You keep talking and we will keep walking. As it has been said, the left does not get it. Now, these supposed right do not get it either. They think the goal is to stop hillary even if it means putting a leftist, pro-abortion RINO who is on the wrong side of the culture war in the white house for atleast 8 years. We will not vote for him. Nominate Huckabee, Tancredo, or Hunter and we will vote GOP for president. Perhaps even Romney. But Rudy we will not vote for. If they give us Rudy and Hillary to chose from, then the presidental election is lost anyways as far as we are concerned, so my vote would probably go for a 3rd party. The good news is that I think us coming out and saying this has had some effect so Rudy may not win it. However most of these big supposedly conservative talk hosts have turned their shows into a three hour commerical for Rudy. I disagreed in the past when conservatives divide over issues, but this is the defining issues and so a divide is necessary if they give us Rudy. Who would have thought that these supposed conservatives would work so hard to try to get a leftist elected president?

a bit simplified.
Third parties don't win because there is not actually some uncovered ground that all of the people unhappy with the dems and reps share. The reality is that the major parties position themselves where most of the votes are.

But at the same time, Medved's argument is somewhat simplistic. Perot did not win the election, but he did get the budget deficits to be a major issue in the 1992 election with the result that in the '90s we saw the deficits disappear. He ceased to be an issue in 2000 and we saw the deficits return with a vengeance. He wasn't the only reason, but his campaign had an effect, and it is one he likely approved of.

Israel, despite its history of multi-party parlimentarianism has historically only had two parties that could win the prime ministry. With direct elections of prime ministers, they have moved closer to our system in the relevant sense. And Sharon was able to win a third party prime ministry by tacking to the center. This took an incredibly fortunate moment for him when he could bolt his party and pick up an equal number from the labor party. But it is possible for two parties to become three when the cards are right.

Of course Medved is right that the cards are not right at the moment for a third party on the right. But the general screed against third parties seems off.

MMedved says
"Party walk-outs don’t produce some sudden desire for reconciliation any more than marital walk-outs serve to strengthen a fraying relationship."

- Ah, but it used to be (before the advent of no-fault quickie divorce) that a time of separation was always called for to think things through prior to a divorce. Usually the party in the wrong will attempt to change their ways, and come back to the relationship.

If the RNC abandons Americans Such as the unborn and the legal citizens of America... If the RNC abondons America itself as it turns our sovereignty over to the corrupt U.N. and decides it's OK to take our weapons away... If the RNC abandons reality as in pretending that the constitution demands a man must marry a man...If the RNC abondons any pretense of fiscal responsibility... then the RNC has abondoned me. Not I it.

If I ever gave the impression that I am a Republican becuase I want America to take over the world while at the same time losing any identity that made it worth passing on to the world, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Ron Paul scares the crap out of you...
--
...doesn't he, Medved?

Hell, he ought to.

You and the rest of your RINO co-conspirators haven't anything to offer the nation but corruption, chickenhawk "internationalism," and a perfectly spineless willingness to surrender "bipartisan consensus" to every socialist objective of your putative opponents in that Bordello-inside-the-Beltway.

And we all know it only too damned well.


--

Khomar: "Regarding Ron Paul"
"He appeared on Jay Leno last night where 11 million people got to hear directly from him for the first time -- many will have never even heard of him before last night."

You ARE kidding, right?

ronpaul has been a participant in every Republican debate... I've seen him on several cable shows, including O'Reilly.

So, if these 11 million (+/-) people may have never even heard of him before last night, and/or really got to hear from ronpaulf for the FIRST TIME, then they're not very astute or politically savvy.


Georgetwin:.. :-)


"Bashing Runt Paul and his ALCOAettes is almost an obsessive/compulsive disorder for you :)!" LOL

Not really. :-) But it's obvious that ALCOAettes are almost obsessive/compulsive about bashing, name calling, and smearing anyone who might possibly disagree with THEM! (Witness the posts above!)



"BTW, they RICHLY deserve it!" Maybe so. I wish I was better at it. LOL





Nobody: Sorry, that was my next question

"What does Ron Paul have to do with the premise of this editorial?"

But somehow I knew that's exactly who would be here....




Mr. Nobody
Ron Paul is one the potential 3rd party candidates if he does not win the primary.

Ron Paul is also the one trying to untite the party under true conservative principles, but getting no support from the neocons running the party.

Ron Paul is the nemisis of Neo-con mouthpieces such as Medved who has written every other day on why we should support Rudi, although he never actually titles his column as such. You see Medved wouldn't mind almost any candidate other than perhaps Ron Paul. Most Rep. candidates bow to the neoconservative thought (they all support the war and other indefinite wars to solve disputes and re-arrange global governance. )

Only Ron Paul stands in stark contrast to this philosophy, and so this piece is really about him.

Responses
Nobody: I was responding to earlier comments that were speaking against Ron Paul and his chances of victory. I was also addressing the fact that Ron Paul, in essence, represents a third party option within the Republican party because he stands against the current neo-conservative movement in the party.

Anne: Very few people watch the debates relative to Jay Leno. This is why many people praised Thompson's decision to announce on Jay Leno rather than attend the Republican debate back in September. By being on Jay Leno, Ron Paul will certainly reach a lot of people who do not normally watch Fox News or MSNBC. He will also reach people who have become disenfranchised by the current political parties and so have not followed the campaigns.

Ron Paul currently has as high as 70% of people in polls saying they have never heard of him. There is certainly a name recognition problem, and those who do finally hear about him generally like what they hear.


Lesser of two evils
I'm tired of throwing away my vote on those who run as "conservatives" but govern left of center.

The only difference between Rudy G and Hillary is a skirt. Voting for the lesser of two evils still means you've voted for evil.

So if the election comes down to choosing between one of those two, I intend to stay home and watch some paint dry. And I don't think I'll be the only one.

Lesser of two evils
I'm tired of throwing away my vote on those who run as "conservatives" but govern left of center.

The only difference between Rudy G and Hillary is a skirt. Voting for the lesser of two evils still means you've voted for evil.

So if the election comes down to choosing between one of those two, I intend to stay home and watch some paint dry. And I don't think I'll be the only one.

An alternate example
While I do not agree with all of Mr Medved's assertions here this provides a very good initial analysis of the chances for success of a "third candidate" candidacy. I generally thing a person who wishes to be politically active, for whatever reason, should work within one of the two major parties. Our government is more stable than any of the multi-party democracies because of the need to work within the framework of our two parties.

However, there is a good example of how something else may work which is worth a look. Nebraska has a no parties legislature. Individuals seeking that office must compete on his own merit rather than with the protection of a party apparatus. On a national scale, and on a scale the size of California this probably would not work. Yet it one should still give it a look before ruling out alternative parties completely.

Jeez
You don't even attempt to hide your transparency anymore Medved, you are TRULY PATHETIC. I can't believe you get paid to do this.

Ron Paul RULZ!!
Hey!! All you Ron Paulettes: Go check out Medved's blog under "Open Letter to Ron Paul". You guys are getting KILLED over there! Go set 'em straight!!

Whew! Maybe THAT will reduce some of the lunacy on this thread! =-)

To those who bash Ron Paul supporters
Why is it that you find so much of a thrill making fun of Ron Paul supporters? Are you jealous of the fact that we actually are excited about the candidate of our choice and that we have a real hope of meaningful change for our country? Are you envious of the fact that we actually have hope in a brighter future as we return to the law of the constitution and abandon the schoolyard bully foreign policy of Bush and Clinton?


Anne
You do just fine :)! Send a message to my Blog if you need help!

To tone down the
I always ask, which of Ron Paul's positions do you find objectionable ?



Absolute nonsense, Medved
As a matter of fact, we've been down this path before, since you seem so eager to use history to try to prove your point.

In the mid-19th Century there were also two dominant political parties: Democrats and WHIGs. A history you mischaracterize.

The WHIGs started compromising their principles and fell into disarray due to internal dissent and dissaffection, and the party machinery used to use the same tactic to try to win elections: shame or bully their members into blindly supporting the party.

There was also a big issue brewing in that day: slavery. The WHIGs once again refused to take a principled stand on that issue, and a "third-party" splinter broke off and successfully ran a candidate: Abe Lincoln. That splinter party was the GOP. Like it or not, that's the history, and your using the phrase "third party" is the only thing you got right; they were never a third party, they were a replacement. Which is very much what may now happen to the GOP as they become ever more irrelevant and just Dem-Lite.

So, Medved, you can take your blind party loyalty and put it where the sun never shines. The natives are restless, and the drums are very loud. We're not being quiet about this AT ALL.

Nominate a liberal like Giuliani and be prepared to get royally trashed at the ballot box. Don't say you weren't warned.

He has nothing at all to offer conservatives, and if there's going to be a lib in the White House I couldn't care less whether there's an (R) or (D) behind the name.

To tone down the
"everybody is crazy but people who think like me rhetoric", I like to ask, which of Ron Paul's positions do you find objectionable ?

A true neocon will think RP's position on the war is crazy, but will be OK with Rudi's position on abortion. At that point there is usually insufficient time for either of us to convert the other. However - many others will begin to honestly look at RP's positions and engage in an honest dialague.

Any takers ?

Keeping Hillary Out
Seems to me that a big part of this argument is "vote Giulliani; it's the only way to keep Hillary out of the White House." I may be wrong about this but I believe that if Republicans choose Giulliani as their candidate it is a pretty sure bet that Hillary WILL be our next President. There are just too many of us who cannot in good conscience vote for the man. It may very well destroy the Republican party, or at the least we will essentially end up with a two-party system all right: both liberal. Many of us have kept voting Republican on the very premise that "well, he's the lesser of two evils." What we have gotten is a Republican party that has gradually inched further left in this cycle than probably ever before. I'm sorry but I for one cannot vote for Giulliani if he is the "Republican" candidate. Maybe it is time for a genuinely conservative political party as a choice.

Let me get this straight?
I find it funny that Michael Medved complains about people being "pompous," "preachy," and "self-righteous." Mirror, Mike??

LOL, Mr. Nobody
Exactly!

The pilot and copilot arguing over how fast to dive the airplane into the ground.

pointguard
Right on target. Bullseye!!

JHS: I think you'd be surprised!


A true Conservative does think RP's position on the war is crazy, but in NO WAY is OK with Rudy's position on abortion, or ANYTHING ELSE, except his claim to fight the WOT for that matter.

ronpaul is a libertarian on the Republican ticket, and rudy is a liberal on the Republican ticket.



Anne
In what way exactly do you find his position on the war to be crazy? This is a serious question. Do you oppose his original opposition to the war, the idea of pulling out of Iraq, or his position on foreign policy in general?

Khomar: Geeze, how many times do I have

to state this... ALL of the above!

Plus, his big idea of closing all our foreign military bases is crazy!

Now, before you go all ballistic, that does NOT mean I'm a "ronpaul hater" as I've been accused of... it only means that I disagree with his foreign policy... which is NO FOREIGN policy.


Anne
So you don't agree with Ron Paul that there should have been a declaration of war from congress?

Anne
Ditto to Khomar's question. I have supported the war in Iraq since its inception and I felt those opposed were crazies who hated the US and our military. I still think that has a lot to do with the anti-war left.

With RP though, once I began to get interested in him, which was less than a month ago - I felt that his anti-war in Iraq stance was not born out of a weak defense philosophy.

In fact he would likely support an even stronger milltary, and a secure border. He just wouldn't have us out fighting 6 year undeclared war. Still unconvinced, I purchased his book "A foreign policy of freedom." It sold me.

The book is really quite dull as it is mainly his speeched to congress regarding foreign wars and foreign aid over the last 20 years. I haven't gotten through it all. But I have gotten through enough to see that our foreign policy has been so interventionalist that we are often supplying both sides of a conflict and then stickig ourselves in the middle as a peace keeping force.

Ultimately there are 5 good reasons for not fighting this particular war:

1. Not declared war by congress
2. Not meet just war elements (Pope John Paul II said the same)
3. Our history of picking effective dictators and creating democracy is not that great, and
4. We are ticking off as many people as we are helping
5. We dont have the money and we dont have our own borders secure? Why are we out saving the rest of the world?

JHS
Exactly. I went through the same transition. Originally I questioned his position on the war, but I liked his stance on fiscal responsibility and a sound dollar. After carefully considering his foreign policy positions, I found that they made a lot of sense.

Is Medved high?
TH needs to conform its drug testing policy, and perhaps increase the frequency of Mr. Medved's random tests.

The GOP and RNC, specifically their rush to anoint Rudy (ostensibly to keep that crackpot McCain from possibly winning), is at fault here. Conservative and Independent voters are capable of making an informed choice, one that apparently doesn't mesh with Mr. Medved's desired outcome. You do realize that all these Rudy, Mitt, McCain and Huckabee supporters are free to cast off their shackles and vote with their true conservative brethren don't you? True Conservatives and rational independents have already cast off the chains of party affiliation because they realize that this nation won't survive either a Hilary administration or another Bush. If the Rudy supporters insist on forcing their candidate down our throats, then so be it. Perhaps a few decades of the Republican party wandering in the desert will have a positive impact. At least it will allow enough time for many of these GOP/RNc morons to die off!

Very few comments address the REAL issue
What even Medved had to conceed:

58% of voters are disillusioned with BOTH of the two parties we have.

That's 58% of ALL Americans. Doesn't that MEAN we are NOT in the minority any more?

These medveds of dishonor hope to ensnare us in their *can't be done* attitude. We are NOT buying into it any more. We NEED those values the two political parties have thrown away:
HOPE
FAITH
FAMILY
COUNTRY

And our reliance on that document that stands the test of time:

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

That says what it means and means what it says.

Political parties are useless
There can be no real political change without cultural change. The Republican party has amply demonstrated there's no real difference between the parties - because the culture belongs to the Liberals, therefore the politics and government belong to them as well, regardless of who's elected. Bush and his Republicans have fully demonstrated their animus for increasing Socialism in this country, because that is what the prevailing Liberal establishment wants. Third parties are indeed useless. So are second parties.

JSH & Khomar: Congress voted! Whether or

not it was a declaration.

BUT, that is, at this point, the least of what I'm concerned about, which is paul's foreign policy... or lack thereof.

Just pulling the troops out is dangerous, and closing all our military bases on foreign soil is completely ill-advised, and cutting the military budget is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Pasadina Phil wrote this on a blog last night in response to a question about our overseas bases. I think it is very well written, and explains a lot.


"Your list of bases and comparative expenditures is not an argument that there are too many bases. Furthermore, Ron Paul's position is not that we should REDUCE bases, but that we should CLOSE THEM ALL DOWN (sorry about the caps, no italics). That is an ISOLATIONIST position which is vastly different than the NON-INTERVENTIONIST position you paulbots keep arguing. We have vital national interests around the world and have an obligation to defend them. Like it or not, we are the only indispensable economy on earth. We can't call the police against our mortal enemies who are legion."


If the tables were turned...
I'm voting in the GOP primary for Ron Paul, nearly the only Republican candidate Michael Medved doesn't approach with slobbering adulation. Unlike some Paul enthusiasts, I don't expect Paul to actually win the nomination. But one reason I wish he *could* win is, it would be interesting to see how Medved would react.

Medved likes to pontificate that even if we don't like any of the "serious" candidates the Republicans are offering us, we should swallow our objections-- and our principles-- and end up voting Republican out of worshipful adoration of the sacred Two-Party System and the holy Republican Party (and out of stark bedwetting terror of President Hillary).

So if Ron Paul did somehow become the GOP nominee, would Medved suck it up and cast his vote for a candidate whose views *he* despises? Or at that point would he suddenly discover that the Two-Party System isn't so wonderful after all and start looking for a pro-war, big-government-social-conservative third party candidate to vote for?

When you have multiple parties
If you don't like the two-party system we have, I suggest you look at how European and Israeli governments function with a multi-party system.

All too often, those governments are paralyzed, unable to take any action. Because the Prime Minister's party may not have a true majority, and so he is forced to cobble together some working coalition with some of the minor parties. Lord only knows the back-room deals that get cut to put those coalitions together. And those coalitions are fragile, they come apart easily.

The American two-party system ensures that at any time there is a majority party that is able to carry out the day-to-day work of governing the nation. And that majority party is chosen by open election, not by some back room deal that we have no visibility into.

America's two party system has worked VERY well for over a hundred years. With it we have survived and overcome world wars, depressions, natural disasters, and civil unrest, without degenerating into the messes we've seen in Europe.

Why change it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

for Google
Google writes: "Federalism is the answer....The limited government far right is asking for Federalism and a limited republic. If you live in a liberal state live like a liberal, if you live in a red state act like a Red, if you live in a conservative state act conservative. "

So much for that Federal Marriage Amendment that the Christian evangelicals want. A Federal amendment that bans same-sex marriage would prevent a liberal state from "living like a liberal." Ditto for ALL Federal legislation that imposes non-liberal policies on liberal states: The War on Drugs being an obvious example.

If a liberal state wants to legalize same-sex marriage, abortion and marijuana, a true Federalist would say "Go ahead." But the Christian evangelicals blasted Fred Thompson when he played with that notion.

for cub
cub writes: "Perhaps it is because 'The People'(58%...?) know that both major parties defy every lesson of history, logic, human nature, and common sense."

Speak for yourself.

Historically, our two party system has done just fine: It won two world wars, developed an atomic bomb in 6 years, ended racial segregation and enabled black Americans to achieve full equality, won the Cold War and ended the Soviet Communist threat, landed a man on the moon in less than 10 years, and built the largest, most productive economy of any nation on earth.

Why change a system that has been that successful over the long term? Can you name a multi-party democracy anywhere on earth that has been more successful than America with its two-party system?


Perot elected Bill Clinton twice
because Clinton only won 43% of the vote in 1992 and 1996.

Had Perot not run, odds are strong that Bush I would have been a two-term pres.

Germany's "third" Green Party is so powerful it has engineered the banning of new nuclear power plants, belying the "green" line that they want to decrease CO2. Greens just want no energy, except what they use flying private jets. Germany has no oil and no coal, and the prohibition on nuclear power will eventually paralyze the nation. Third-rail parties are usually spoilers.

The communist party in Italy often prompted multiple "gov't's" annually. One year Italy had ten gov't's. Since the ideal of communism has finally subsided almost everywhere except Cuba and South America, Italy's politics have been much more stable.

If religious cons. form a third party for 2008, they will hand the election and Cong. to Dems. and libs. for 8 years. There will be the voice of the turtle heard in the land during that wilderness.

Shilling for Daddy
Michael, you are like the mother who stands by while the father molests his daughters and then tells the daughters that they should not leave because it would be bad for the family. You shilled for the GOP and Mr. Bush as he molested us with the immigration reform and the GOP when we got Mr. Dole. There are some things that are not acceptable, amnesty for illegals, higher taxes, loss of jurisdiction in Texan courts, loss of 2nd amendment rights after Katrina, these feel like molestations by the GOP and Mr. Bush. Now we are looking at being forced to accept a national leader who is pro-abortion, or who has the family life values of a meerkat, and wants to pander to illegal aliens. And now you're telling us to ignore the molestations as it would not be good for us. The Whigs fell apart as well they should and the GOP is about to fall apart as well.

for Nancy
Nancy writes: "George H.W. Bush....seemed to have won the White House just to sit in the chair."

That's FALSE. Bush 41 did a lot as President:

Operation Just Cause: Successful military operation to depose Manuel Noriega in Panama

The Gulf War: Fielded half a million troops and beat Saddam--and did it without the kind of post-war mess we're in now

Managed the final stage of the end of the Cold War, establishing a working partnership with Gorbachev and later with Yeltsin

Negotiated the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)--did such a good job that his Democrat successor, Bill Clinton, could sign it into law.


Anne
No, congress wimped out. Instead of entering into the serious deliberations it would have taken to formally declare war, they left it to Bush to do whatever he pleased. Instead of stepping up and doing their JOB, they abdicated their responsibility and gave unconstitutional power to the President. This they have continued to do ever since which is part of the reason that their approval rating is only slightly higher than the President's.

And you are right. If all that foreign policy means to you is how we deploy our military around the world, then Ron Paul has no foreign policy. However, Ron Paul believes that foreign policy is best exercised with diplomacy and free trade -- not through force of arms. If we truly want democracy to spread around the world, we need to let the people of foreign countries choose it of their own free will. We also need to recognize that a democracy may not be the absolute best form of government for every nation or culture.

Really, it comes down to this. We should treat other countries the way we want to be treated. Would we want Germany to build an airbase in Virginia, or South Korea to build a base in California to protect the border? Would we want Holland to tell us how to run our legal system (while occupying our country with their troops to maintain the peace)? Just as we don't like it when the U.N. tells us what to do, the rest of the world doesn't like it when we tell them what to do. Each country wants to have its own sovereignty, and we should respect that.

The two party system IS BROKEN
because they are the SAME platform.

If 58% (by his own words) are hankering for something ELSE - then it won't BE a third party. It may REPLACE an existing party. Republicans AND democrats are dissatisfied with their parties. And the leadership. And the mouthpieces like melved. We won't BE FRIGHTENED like children.

We are tired of the pc games. We want and NEED our Constitution to mean something to future generations. We DON'T want to be part of Mexico or a World government.

SteveL
Your examples of NAFTA and even the original Gulf War were not exactly great achievements. NAFTA started the process of removing our sovereignty and weakening our nations borders. It was the first step toward the unification efforts that are happening behind scenes right now.

The Gulf War resulted in a permanent military base in Saudi Arabia. This was one of the stated reasons why Al Queda attacked us on 9/11. Our troops on Muslim holy land is a very sore subject in the Middle East especially because of the presence of Bibles by many of the troops and the spread of western culture as they mingled with the natives.

And, of course, the Gulf War is further complicated by the fact that we attacked a government we actually helped put into power.

New Party
It is still my hope that Ron Paul will win the nomination and restore balance to the two party system by returning the Republican party to its limited government, fiscal responsibility roots. However, should this not happen, I think the Constitutional and Libertarian parties should look into joining forces to create one larger party. The Constitutional needs to drop some of its religious overtones and the Libertarian needs to drop some of its anti-government stances, but I think there actually is a lot of commonality in those parties.

A Constitutional/Libertarian party might just be able to tap into the restless voters out there right now to create a strong force against big, invasive government. Something like this needs to happen because the Democrats and Republicans are starting to look a lot alike.

Khomar: Got it! Don't agree!
.

Well Medved
is right about at least one thing: the incredibly pompous nature of Lou Dobb's unintelligent barking and writing.

I am a firm supporter of the two party system; history has shown it to be a strong element of stability in the English speaking democracies. But even a supporter like myself has limits to pragmatism. Unless and until Rudy Giuliani makes suitable reassurances, I like many others am unlikely to support him. Supporting a nominee who is against every major principle of the party would be akin to a 1850s Republican supporting a GOP nominee who was "anti-slavery but pro slaveholding rights".

Neo-Whigs & Lack of Direction?
MM says the Republicans were never a "third" party, but rushed into the vacuum of the Whigs' collapse. BrianR rightly points out that the Whigs collapsed because they had no real vision or direction (they basically started as the party that was against Andrew Jackson), & couldn't even take a position on slavery. Lincoln & many other early Republicans were former disaffected Whigs. The parallels between the Whigs & today's GOP are obvious.

Since 1994 there has been a stupid and disengenuous cult of "moderation" applied to the GOP Congress. The elite established pop media were continually needling the confused new majority to court "moderates" and to tone down their strident (har har) riightwing rhetoric. They got into a mode of ostensibly courting "moderates" and "centrists" on the theory that anyone not a Democrat or a 'right-winger' must want policies & governance somewhere between those "extremes." Actually, they were catering to ghosts created by the pop media; the actual electorate considered in play were mostly apathetic or confused or even further to the extremes.

Supposedly for that reason, they simply couldn't take or hold a conservative position even when it would have been pathetically easy to do so. Instead of reforming and curbing 'entitlements,' they invented new ones. Is it too much to expect that they could have at least not aggressively expanded government like the Demmies?

GOP: Don't want a 3rd party? Then be it!
MM says no one can influence a party by walking out. The converse certainly seems to be true: if you consistently & reliably support a party, you risk being taken for granted. The elite GOP apparachiks have taken the attitude that the "right wing" has no where else to go, thus they can ignore us. If we continue to put up with that, rest assured that is all we will ever get from the GOP.

The function of 3rd parties is to signal the institutional parties that they are getting out of touch & a large plurality is getting disaffected. We were told in Pol Sci 201 they respond by moving in & 'stealing' the 3rd party's issues & positions.

PLEASE, GOP, COME STEAL OUR ISSUES! What is so hard about border security? What is so hard about less spending & lower taxes? What is so hard about rejecting governemnt monopoly rationed medicine? What is so hard about the 1st Amendment, the 2nd Amendment, private property, free enterprise, & individual equal rights? What is so hard about demanding proof of alleged scientific phenomena that motivate threats to our freedom & prosperity?

The question is, doesn't the prospect of losing "the right" bother THEM? Are they content to be Democrat Lite? Today's "Progressivism" already belongs to one party; do they want to be the party that stands for the same but less while a huge plurality, maybe even a slight majority, of the electorate is disaffected and ignored?

Instead of nattering to the conservative base as to why they should keep sucking it up, MM needs to turn around and start warning his elite apparachik buds that their comfy little nest is about to get tipped over. We are over here; if you want our support, get over here with us, talk the talk, & walk the walk. Otherwise, maybe we NEED to form a party that stands for our principles, & let the GOP go the way of the Whigs as they seem determined to do.

Goebbels Would Be Proud, Medhead!
Where do I begin? Let's see, you expect your readers to believe that YOU, a lockstep party hack, care soooo much about the "fringe" issues within your own party that you'd hate to see those causes die out or become "discredited" by becoming 3rd part issues? If you disdain those "fringe" issues sufficiently to attempt to discredit them yourself, why should anyone believe that it's a sense of altruism that fuels your intentions?

You caution others against going 3rd party, lest they ruin their careers? Let me tell you something, Mr Medhead, those who abandon their lifelong affiliation with a political party do not enter into that decision lightly. When a person feels compelled to sever those familiar ties, he is motivated by a sense that he has been betrayed, abused, and taken for granted for far too long. The act of changing one's party affiliation, an act that often entails ostracism by friends and family, is more often than not an act of prioritizing one's principals above one's personal ambitions. Your argument strongly suggests that your own political affiliation is motivated more by concern for career than country. Remember that the most powerful icon of the Republican party (yes, Ron Reagan) once was compelled to leave the party that had taken him and his beliefs for granted.

You tell your readers that the 3rd party path is the road to certain ruin for any political cause, that the answer is to stay put, to attempt change from within, NOT to sever political bands, despite a long train of abuses. If George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had heeded your counsel (and there were many -- Tories -- who advised the same course) we'd still be singing, 'God Save The Queen.'

Read the rest: http://aa4p.blogspot.com/

JHS
"I always ask, which of Ron Paul's positions do you find objectionable?"

First? His electability.

He isn't going to win any primary. He isn't going to win Iowa or New Hampshire or South Carolina or anything. He isn't going to be the nominee.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele ction_2008__1/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential _tracking_poll

There's the daily tracking poll for the race. Paul is up against FIVE candidates who have double digit percentages. Paul has less than 3%. I suppose a miracle could happen and he could overtake one of those guys, but all five of them?

Gentlemen, ladies, we are conservatives. We are not given to flights of fancy. I should hope that we are not ridiculous, starry eyed romanticists.

You can talk constitutionality. Limited government. Gun rights. All of that. But every issue is TRUMPED by electability. If you can't get past that, there is no use even talking about it. We might as well discuss Santa Claus' positions on the issues.

Neocons Control GOP
That's why Medved wants to preserve the two-party system because Neocons control the GOP.

Why anyone would waste time listening to this clown is beyond me.

Jason, well said
Out here in Leftifornia, I refused to vote for Ah-nuld either time he ran.

True, it sure didn't affect the outcome.

But in the meantime I can call him for the jackass he truly is with an absolutely clear conscience and no danger of being a hypocrite.

That, to me, is VERY important!


"Electability"?
That's your objections, Citizen Carrier? Electability?

Do you mean to imply that you agree with him on the issues, but you just don't believe he can beat Hillary? Or do you disagree with him on all of the issues, and "electability" is just your excuse for trying to drum him out of the contest?

What is it about him that makes him "unelectable"? Too old? Not pretty enough for your taste? Holding out for a Denzel Washington type? BTW, there's no evidence that a black man is "electable." Would you deny your vote to an otherwise worthy candidate, because you thought his race made him "unelectable"?

http://aa4p.blogspot.com/

AfricanAmericans4Paul
"What is it about him that makes him "unelectable'?"

His polling numbers.

His lack of popularity with Republican voters.

The stark reality that he isn't going to win a single primary.

If I were just now coming into this discussion and all I typed was "Duncan Hunter and Tony Tancredo aren't going to win a primary", do you suppose people would be coming after me for writing that?

I mean, we know it's true, right? We know Hunter and Tancredo aren't going to win Iowa or anything else. We know it.

Yet, if I point out the SAME fact about Paul, who's numbers are similar to Hunter and Tancredo, it is like I just told a class of pre-schoolers there is no Santa Claus.

Unless of course, you can find some historical precedent for a guy with less than 3% support overtaking five guys in front of him with double digit numbers.

That's how I define unelectable.

But you seem to want to discuss issues. I'll have to continue this...

two party system ...
gave us such consensus building, wait their turn titans as Gerald Ford and Bob Dole and legacy short-cutters in line like Dubya. ... can you imagine any of them having to go on the road with their own wits to guide them as 3rd party candidates with no apparatus and MSM big money behind them? none of them hold a candle to Nader, Buchanan, and Paul as far as articulating the issues from a principled position while being able to think on one's own two feet and building their own organizations free from the obligations of their oligarch backers.

it is telling to me that while the Republicans could find it in their guts to back mediocrities like Powell and Condi for positions in the apparatus they couldn't bring themselves to eviscerate Teddy Kennedy; the Harvard cheat who had the audacity to attack the ideology of the principled Federalist and Constitutional scholar Robert Bork.

if the two party system was on the up and up Nixon would still be a revered political figure and anti-communist patriot and Ted Kennedy and the Clintons would have been destroyed; one as a borderline murderer of a boiler room sycophant floozie and the other two for being new pro-business Democrats who allowed our corporatocracy to sell its crown jewel defense systems that were paid for with our tax dollars to a foreign power while pardoning Mark Rich in a pure quid pro quo money grab!

AfricanAmericans4Paul
"Do you mean to imply that you agree with him on the issues, but you just don't believe he can beat Hillary?"

No, I believe he could beat Hillary. Narrowly.

I'm not trying to drum anybody out of the contest. I am attempting to shine the harsh, cruel light of reality.

You get Paul the nomination and I will skip, actually skip, to the polling place while humming "The Good Ship Lollipop" in order to vote for him on Election Day. I've already said I would vote for the one of the two party candidates who most agrees with me.

Wait, I'll be in Kuwait. In uniform. Forget the skipping part.

http://www.dehp.net/candidate/index.php

Pretty simplistic, but I've taken many such as these. Some much more complex. But they all come out the same. Here's my breakdown:

Hunter-44
Romney-40
Tancredo-36
Huckabee-32
Thompson-23
McCain-20
Cox-18
Brownback-15
Guiliani-13
Paul-6

After Paul comes all of the Democrats. All of them with negative numbers. So no, I do not agree with Paul on all the issues. Almost as many as I disagree with the liberals on. I currently supporting Thompson. That's my choice right now.

Khomar

We are not allowed to mention Dr. X by name anymore. From now on please refer to him as "he who shall not be named."



Medved is right on the money
3rd Party loons achieve nothing.

Ross Perot simply helped get Clinton elected, twice. Where is that raving egotist now?

Pat Buchanan has wandered so far off, I can't even recognize him anymore.

Now, the media is trying to drum up a 3rd Party disgruntled christian candidate. No thanks.

Medved
This coming from a guy, whose party has been saying for so long that Democrats are under serving African Americans because they take their vote as a given. I happen to agree with this contention and would go further to say that African American political "leaders" are selling their people out.

But I also happen to believe that the same is true with "Conservatives" in the Republican Party. In this case the "Conservatives" are so loyal that they let these big GOVERNMENT water carriers determine the definition of Conservative. Look at the Democrats, pay no attention to the Liberals in your own party. Don't even think about introspection. Forget all about what we said in 1994?

Conservatism should not be something that blows in the wind, it is pretty damn clear. Limited Government, FEDERALISM, personal responsibility, personal charity, are all a part of Conservatism and so is FEDERALISM. Sorry I have demands and I will not play nice until we have a REPUBLIC again. Having every decision made at the FEDERAL level is not a REPUBLIC, it is a DEMOCRACY.

'David Ziegler
Ross Perot got Clinton elected. So what? What was the alternative. A Bush or a Clinton, who cares?
The Republicans were on the ascent when Clinton was Pres and in the descent when Bush filled the office.
Without a countervailing threat such as a third party threat the powers that be will abandon the base and become the very thing that they say they hate.

JackShiite
"They are not going to pay attention until the week before the election, and then they will vote AGAINST the GOP simply because of Bush. Without knowing a single thing about the Dem nominee.

If ANY Republican really has a chance of winning next year, it would be Ron Paul."

And you base these predictions on...what?

Your intuition? The projection of your dislike of Bush onto a majority of the electorate? The mistaken assumption that you and your political position represents a majority of voters?

I don't even pretend that I represent the average conservative or Republican. That is a dangerous assumption to make. Most people aren't as conservative as I am. Or you. That is why it is questionable to make baseless prediction.

It's why I try to base my arguments on measurable data and historical precedent.

Just yesterday Rasmussen put out polling data showing that as it stands now, EVERY Republican candidate--even Ron Paul--could beat Hillary in the election.

Paul won with the narrowest numbers (a 4% win, give or take margin of error), but against Hillary even "Our Kucinich" has a good chance. That data refutes your assertion that Paul is the "only Republcan who has a chance to beat her". He can. But he'd do it with a margin much narrower than any of the other Republicans.

So no, I'm not buying the knee-jerk "Punish Bush Regardless of Who's Running" scenario you are crystal balling.

Foreign military bases
for the most part aren't needed any-more. I'm in the military and have been stationed in Europe and am going to Japan soon. I like the opportunity to live in these countries and sample their cultures (Italy has the best food in the world) but I don't believe America should be my personal travel agent considering the cost to move my family, my car, and all my stuff over there (and everyone elses').
We have not left any country we've invaded except Vietnam obviously. The European bases are a relic of the cold war and the Germans fight to keep them there because of the economic benefits (to the Germans). The bases in Korea are just a skirt for the pacifist liberals in South Korea to hide behind instead of using their huge economice base to defend themselves. Japan is about the only country that needs to be defended due to the resurgence of the Chinese and their hatred of the Japanese due to the atrocities committed during WW2. This could also be taken away if we would take off the restrictions imposed after WW2 and let Japan have an effective military again.
All we need are supply sources which can be available in foreign military bases arranged through diplomatic means to keep our ships maintaining a global presence for free trade. Our Army can stay at home with their families and be ready to deploy to operational areas when needed (and also to defend the border).
I don't favor a sudden pull out of Iraq because of a "you break it you bought it" mentality but I don't think we should be the world's police force. We need a strong military to defend us and our allies but we can stay here until needed.

Back to the subject,
I won't vote for the lesser of two "liberals" either (since some have complained about calling them evil). I'm supporting Duncan Hunter in the primaries, and 3rd party when a RINO gets the nomination

True Colors
Okay, Citizen Carrier, since you showed be yours, here's mine:

Paul 56
Brownback 25
Tancredo 15
Thompson 10
Cox 8
Huckabee 5
Hunter 4
McCain 2
Gravel 2
Biden -8
Kucinich -8
Romney -11
Obama -11
Richardson -13
Dodd -16
Edwards -17
Clinton -20
Giuliani -30

I agree with some of these rankings more than others, but the extremes are pretty accurate. In fact, if Julie-Annie gets the nomination, I will pull the lever for Hillary, without hesitation -- not because I prefer her, but because it will be a signal to me that the parties have officially merged. And, no, I don't care if he resurrects Ronald Reagan and names him as his running mate. And I don't care what the polls say, Hillary will win that match up; I'd bet George Snufalupogos on it.

On top of that, on the off chance that Kucinich gets his party's nomination, I'd vote for him over any Republican currently in the race EXCEPT Paul (okay, maybe Tancredo too); that's how strongly that I resent my party's present Neoscum (read: "Socialist") leadership.

What's more -- and I'll raise you Cokie Roberts on this one -- the "scientific" polls are WRONG. The pollsters are applying archaic methods (methods that have been outdated for the better part of 10 years) that are skewing the sample. Paul will place near the top in IA and SC, and will likely win NH.

I've been saying for years...
that we need more voices in the political process and a third party would be one way to do it.

Here's one conservative who's voting for Ron Paul regardless if he's on the ticket as a republican or an independent. I will write his name in if I have to, but than again, I'm the kind of guy that votes for someone mostly because of his character, politics second. This time, one candidate has both traits that I like and I'm sticking with him. Dr. Paul carries the Constitution in his hand!

"Freedom is popular" - Ron Paul

Ron Paul rEVOLution 2008!

RonPaul2008.com
thisnovember5th.com

Libertarians not even Mentioned
That is the problem with third parties....the media selectively chooses to leave them out. Libertarians have elected people all across the country. Open your eyes Medved

Wow, Medved
The campaign of Ron Paul is really eating at you, isn't it?

Don't worry, he's running as a Republican. He won't hurt the party--in fact, he'll win the election for you.

Now, you just sit tight.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com

third Party Impact
Michael...are you saying Ross Perot and Ralph znader have not had impact? No you are saying they didn't "win", right?

Michael "Machiavelli" Medved
Michael, Kafka wrote about you time and time again. You lay insurmountable burdens on people that you, yourself, cannot live up to. I have read your coloumn for the very last time. You are the ego maniac, Michael Machiavelli Medved.

Points, Good and Bad
Medved makes many points, many well-reasoned, many wrong, some dishonest and several obtuse. I won't argue these at this point of the day. However, I will claim that Medved wrote this in an effort to head off a conservative and/or religious right Third Party run that would hurt the hero of all neo-conservatives everywhere-
Rudy Guiliani.

Change
Gotta love Medved's logic. A third party has never succeeded, therefore it never will.

Good thing Thomas Edison didn't take that philosophy to heart with the light bulb.

There is one thing that worldly pragmatists like Medved will never understand. Sometimes you do the right thing, even if it means you lose. Eventually it will pay off.

When those who hid Jews against the Nazis risked their lives in doing so, I seriously doubt they were worried about what they'd gain by doing the right thing.

Yes, a 3rd party run by a conservative would result in a Democrat win. Today. Now. But maybe, just maybe, it would start the ball rolling towards a higher good.

Medved's childish insulting of those who disagree on this issue is yet more proof that he's now "connected", he's in someone's pocket, and he's got more at stake here than is visable on the surface.

This column has me actually considering a write-in vote for Ron Paul, who seems to be the only serious candidate for change. I will be "throwing my vote away" of course, but better to die fighting than to just submit to the slow death of big govn't socialism.

oh by the way
When the "loon" Ross Perot ran, the national debt was something around $4 Trillion. That was his biggest issue. Today it's what, $11 Trillion? That's about $80,000 per family. But hey, that's the kids' problem, right?

Nee a clue as to why the dollar is falling? See above.

Whew, good thing we had our Repblicans in office to make sure things didn't go badly, eh?

Voted for GWB twice. I'm done supporting mediocrity.

Medved Rocks!
This is the best non-technical, brief presentation I've seen in years of the case against third parties. I'm not surprised, however, that most of the TH readers who have commented thus far either impugn Medved's motives or make precisely the "case" for Ron Paul or some other favorite as a third party candidate, without really being able to offer counter-evidence or rational arguments against Medved.

For better or worse, our political system has evolved in such as way that the two major parties are almost as fundamental to it as is the structure of the US government. If conservatives want to win, they simply have to work through or control the Republican party. If they can't do that, they can accomplish virtually nothing in the voting booth.

The Democrats are in the same situation. Over here among liberals, the third party yearning occasionally takes root, but it's the case that the only way for liberalism to prevail politically is by means of the Democratic party.

Parties are the only vehicles for ideological politics. Third parties are nothing but the dreams of politically uninformed idealists.

Perot's Run
Ross Perot's first run in 1992 accomplished the three major things he wanted to accomplish. First, he made the history books. Second, he helped produce the mood to defeat George H.W. Bush. Third, his issue with the budget dominated the campaign.

Perot's second run in 1996 was more ego-driven and unfocused. Yet his attacks on President Clinton's disreputable tied to the East Asian mob were much more effective than those of the hapless Robert Dole.

Paul has some splainin to do.
When he can tell us straight out that he does not think the government was behind 911...when he can tell us straight out that he is-like most of us-contemptuous of Neo-Nazi groups, and stop taking their money, THEN I might give him a second look.

Sadly, the guy is extremely evasive and vague on these topics. And he does not stand a chance.

Brian, sorry...
The WHIGs had already folded their tents when Lincoln won the election. Hence, there were TWO parties at the time of his victory.

Japan
The US military is not in Japan to protect Japan, but to project US interests into the region. Japan would be critical in the event of a crisis in Korea or in the Taiwan Straits. Now one could argue that the US has no interest in Korea or Taiwan (which was exactly the position the US took in 1950 when Dean Acheson left out Korea and Taiwan from the US Asian defensive alingment) but the last time that was done the result was the Korean War.


Third Parties and such
First, third parties have even in defeat served a purpose in American politics as the major parties incorporated "the good parts" of their platform and junked the more extreme elements.

Second as for Ron Paul:

He supports decriminalization of prostitution, legalization of drugs, the withdrawal of all US troops abroad...these are not exactly conservative positions to hold. Just curious why so many "conservatives" support him.

He also seems to have some odd beliefs as a liberetarian as well since most libertarians are pro-choice, favor open borders and free trade. He either seems like a confused Republican or a confused libertarian and perhaps more at home in some party created by Pat Buchannan.




And one more thing
If you want to have a voice in government, third parties aren't the answer since the way the US system is structured it makes third party success virtually impossibe. The way to give political minorities a voice is to junk a good part of the US Constitution and move to a
parliamentary system. Otherwise, the Democrats and GOP are simply going to trade power between themselves every 8-12 years from now to the end of time.

Yes, the LP and other minor parties have won elections--LP members of a city council or a Reform Party governor doesn't really have much of an impact when 99% of all elected officials are either GOP or DEM.




A 3rd Political Party
Historically, the only time a 3rd political gained credibility was during the reconstruction period following the Civil War. That Party was founded by Southerners as a kind of defence against what was being done to the South by Northerners. That party eveolved into the Democratic Party, and it is the primary reason that Southerners have been such "yellow dog Democrats" (ydd).

I was a ydd until, while serving in the military, I realized the Dems had abandoned their original goals for more anti-American, anti-patriotic precepts.

"Ross for Boss" came the closest to forming a viable 3rd party since reconstruction. The positive aspect was spotlighting how the Dems & GOP had abandoned American citizenry. The negative impact was it captured enough of the GOP voters to give the election to Bill Clinton.

Now, Dimcrats pollsters are beginning to push the idea of a 3rd party with the hopes that it will again provide the margin to successfully install another Clinton (or whoever) in the Whitehouse. I won't be fooled again! We Americans have our very survival at stake!!!!


Michael, Michael, Michael!
Once again the mindless, moronic Michael Medved has attempted to spin his inarticulate gibberish into something believable. I really believe this clown thinks he is relevant in the overall scheme of things political. It took him over 50 paragraphs to offer his personal invective which is obviously directed toward Ron Paul. It is really becoming amusing just how much effort these buffoons put forth due to their fear the status quo in American politics is beginning to become unraveled. This kind of political hype is all the more reason to vote for Ron Paul. He, unlike Medved, is a real American patriot who also knows far more about honesty than does Mr. Medved. Perhaps it is time to pull the plug on TH since they continue to support the likes of these Republican hacks. Apparently they are part of the cabal at work behind the scenes to destroy the Paul campaign before too many Americans awaken to their awful situation and vote the bums out of office.

Wisdom of the Moment?

I just can't help suspecting that Mr. Medved's loud and total condemnation of 3rd-Party candidacies has more to do with his fear of a Hillary Clinton Presidency than with any real intellectual position. Did he write any stuff like this in 2000 and 2004 when Ralph Nader splintered the Democratic ticket?

Michael makes a solid case that third-party candidates don't get elected president, but his leap from there to the conclusion that third parties are useless is an awfully huge leap. He comes closer to a real discovery when he notes that Jesse Ventura won a Governorship as a 3rd-party candidate, but was ineffective without allies in the legislature, but Michael just won't allow himself (and us) to draw the obvious conclusion:

Third Parties must build themselves from the Grassroots on up. If there is a legitimate need for third, fourth,..,Nth political parties, then they can and should first win elections in local and state governments, and in the legislature before the presidency.

Michael knows best
"The persistent American fascination with third parties and fringe candidates defies every lesson of history, logic, human nature and common sense."

I guess Michael should introduce a new law to Congress that makes it illegal to have a third party in the United States. That way, we won't have to worry about these stupid, ignorant Americans doing anything to disrupt a perfectly fine political design.

I guess I'm a Neocon...
And all this time I thought I was a conservative. Thank you, St. Ron worshippers, for helping me to realize my true affiliation. I took that little test that Citizen Carrier posted the link to and St. Ron came in two clicks below Hillary.

Hunter came in first, but guess what? I'm supporting Rudy! Want to know why? Well, I'll tell you anyway. It's because 1) he's electable, 2) he understands the Islamofascist threat and is going to fight the War on Terror, and 3) he has promised to appoint strict constructionist justices to the Supreme Court.

I can't wait to see him tear Hillary apart in the debates. He's been consistently going after her majesty while the other candidates have spent most of their time attacking each other or "distancing themselves" from Bush.

If these third party morons do what they keep threatening to do and "vote their consciences" or "vote for principal over party", then what they'll doom us all to is eight years of Hillary. I believe, though, that most of the people supporting St. Ron and these other more "principled" candidates will do the right thing on election day and vote against Hillary and for someone who can win. I know that's what I plan to do.

AfricanAmericans4Paul
I checked out your blog.

Great Read! Keep up the good work.

Actually
Not counting the Republicans in 1860, the nearest a third party has come to gaining power was 1912 when TR ran under the Bull Moose banner.

And the southern third parties were not during reconstruction but just before and during the civil rights movement after WWII--primarily 1948 and 1968.

Corrupt #1 or Corrupt #2 isn't a choice
I am not satisfied with either party at this point. If I vote for either party, I am showing support, implicitly allowing the status quo to continue. Since both parties represent big government and big budgets, I will not vote for either primary party candidate. After a few election cycles, one of the parties may begin to understand that a change is needed in order to gain power back.

If that party moves in the right direction and does so in a manner to instill trust, I may decide to vote for their people in the future. Unitl such a times, I will be among the disenfranchised who refuses to support our out-of-control government.


reply to Citizen Carrier
I agree with your assessment of third parties and the usual reasons people give for voting for them. I'll put it a little differently: I think third party fans confuse polls with elections. They think of an election as just a great big public opinion poll, where everybody's opinion is noted. Elections are different; we have elections to choose office-holders who will operate a government. There's no doubt that third party voters feel great, usually quite self-righteous, about voting on the basis of their innermost beliefs. However, this has little or nothing to do with the process of electing people who will actually govern. The third party voter has opted out of that process.

Over here among my fellow liberals, third party fever hits every few years, and this season conservatives have succumbed to it. I consider third party voting to be a kind of dereliction of one's civic duty, but I know this is not a view many people share. Back in 1992, I even thought, briefly, of breaking with my strong Democratic party loyalty to vote for Bob Dole. The reason: I wasn't sure if Clinton would be able to govern effectively, and regarded Dole with favor as a seasoned office-holder. I went back to the Dems, but only when I thought I had reason to believe that Clinton could govern effectively.

When we vote, we are contributing, in the way built into our political system, to the governing of our country. I'm not interested in "sending a message" to anyone by voting for a third party, since sending messages is best left to polls and bloggers.

hardcase

America is a Christian nation of about 300 million. Many of which own guns and know how to use them (no thanks to Guiliani). How exactly are the "islamofascists" a threat? Because they can smuggle a nuke here and blow up a city? How exactly will Guiliani prevent that from happening? If I remember correctly it was unarmed, motivated citizens who protected us on 9-11, not government.

Many in the republican party believe the government to be inept at just about everything. Yet for some reason they believe government will protect them from terrorists. I just don't see the logic.

And what would your attitude be if you were the victim of American foreign policy. We have consistantly interfered in the affairs of sovereign nations for decades and the world is as unsafe as it's ever been. Maybe it's time to try a new tactic. It is much harder to hate someone who treats you with respect than it is someone who imposes their will on you. Isn't that why we rebelled from the British?

If you respond please use logic and not a knee-jerk reply like, "I don't care what anyone else thinks." I want to understand why you think Guiliani will protect us.

DevilsPaintBrush
"Yet for some reason they believe government will protect them from terrorists. I just don't see the logic."

No. I also don't expect the police to protect me from criminals. I DO expect the police to arrest criminals, though. The police have undoubtedly arrested and jailed criminals that I will never have to face or deal with because they were arrested before I had a chance.

I kind of like that. Same with government. Lots of dead al Qaeda all over the world thanks to our government. Ones I won't have to deal with. Right here in Columbus they arrested a guy who was planning things like cutting the cables on the Brooklyn Bridge.

So...yeah, I DO expect the government to investigate, arrest, and if necessary kill terrorists. I would prefer not to have to deal with them myself.

"We have consistantly interfered in the affairs of sovereign nations for decades and the world is as unsafe as it's ever been."

Done any duck and cover drills lately? The world is much safer than it was during the 20th Century. The terrorists do not rise to the level of Nazis or Soviets or Imperial Japan. And that was because we interfered with their governments. And for the record, I do not consider unelected dictatorships as "sovereign". I wonder why so many libertarian/3rd Party types give so much legitimacy to that which ISN'T legititmate, according to their own ideology?

"How exactly are the "islamofascists" a threat?"

I don't think you can say the world is as unsafe as it has ever been AND suggest that the main force making this world "unsafe" is in fact nothing to worry about. Because if they aren't, you can hardly say the world is as unsafe as it's ever been.

That logical enough for you? Going shooting...

Ron Paul is the best GOP choice.....
.....to guard against any third party threats to the traditional GOP voting block.

That's right, I'll proclaim his name loudly!!! Dr. Ron Paul is the best GOP candidate to prevent any third party rumblings on the conservative side of the fence. The Constitution Party's last presidential candidate, Michael Peroutka, has already endorsed Ron Paul. Certainly, most of the Libertarian party voters will vote for Ron Paul. Ron Paul brings in many Independants and new young voters. Even some anti-war Democrats will crossover and vote for Ron Paul. With Ron Paul as the GOP candidate, the GOP tent is huge and unstoppable.

It's sad to say, the only ones we would have to worry about are the neo-conservatives. With Ron Paul as the GOP nominee, will the neo-conservatives abandon all conservative principles and go vote for Hillary? Michael, that's the next question I'd like to see you tackle in your next article.

I agree with Medved, but...
I like Micheal Medved, and he is probably right when he says a third party is not the way to go. History has shown that third parties just don't win.

Still, I hope Republicans have better sense than to give the nomination to Rudy Giuliani. The reality is, pro-life voters are not going to support him. Like it or not, it just ain't gonna happen. If Giuliani is the nominee, I look for our next president to be a Democrat.

When that happens, don't say we pro-lifers didn't warn you.

TWA: typing while angry
M Sederoff writes:
"I checked out your blog.

Great Read! Keep up the good work."

Thanks. I'm surprised you could read it through all of the typos. I must have had blood in my eyes when I wrote it.

Citizen Carrier
Good reply. Going out too, will reply later.

Have fun shooting. I recently bought a black powder replica Walker .44. Lots of fun to shoot.

Third Party Spoilers
The problem with third parties is that they siphon off votes especially in tight election years. Third party candidates have nothing to lose so they make all sorts of outlandish idealistic promises that they can never hope to fulfill anyhow. Third parties act as spoilers, derailing legitimate candidates who are fighting tooth and nail for every vote.

Take the election fiasco of 2000 where both Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan were the spoilers. Nader siphoned off alot of progressive votes that normally would have gone to Al Gore. And of course there was the infamous Florida fiasco where the stupid butterfly ballot showed that votes intended for Al Gore went to Pat Buchanan instead.

Third party candidates are destructive and incredibly selfish.

Don't Know Much About Pol-i-tics....
Mikey Medhead, the self-proclaimed "expert" on American political parties, just told a caller that the "Democratic Party" was the name that Mr. Jefferson gave to the political party he started in opposition to Hamilton's so-called "federalism." The tragedy for Mikey's Mr Know-it-all credentials is that the poorly informed caller he was correcting at the time wasn't much further off base than Mickey himself. That's the problem with party hacks, they become incapable of distinguishing between objective reality and party propaganda.

The name Mr. Jefferson gave to his party was "The Republican Party." The democratic societies subsequently formed to promote Jeffersonian Republicanism (small, decentralized, local gov't) became known as "Democratic-Republican Societies." Over time, the popular name of these political organizations became intertwined with the name of the party they promoted, until the party became known as the "Democratic-Republican Party," and eventually (about the time of Andrew Jackson, the president whose proudest accomplishment was dismantling his day's equivalent of the Fed) simply "The Democratic Party" (as we know it today). Eventually, a 3rd party adopted the name that was no longer in use, in an effort to add to its credibility and to capitalize on the popularity of the founder of the original "Republican Party." Sadly, neither major party, despite the lineage of one and the name sake of the other, champions the ideals on which the original Republican Party was founded. However, in an ironic twist, they do seem to have become ideologically indistinguishable from one another -- if not in platform, then certainly in practice.

Michael, if you insist upon using strawman callers, in your feeble quest to discredit your political "enemies," please don't be so smug in your own ignorance.

Actually, in FL
all those votes for Pat Buchanan meant for Gore (a aupposition never technically proven, just alleged by people who couldn't stick a pin through a hole--the bane of Democratic manual dexterity) are probably keeeping us safe from the extra energy taxes and surcharges for global warming imbalances on our energy and automobiles we would all be forced to pay if Gore had become pres.

Thank you, Pat.

A prety good historical review by Medved
Not my favorite columnist, but a pretty solid job of illustrating the historic futility of third party candidates.

We'll be seeing a lot of these analyses in the coming days in response to the threat by many evangelical leaders to back a third party candidate if Giuliani is the nominee. As something of an apologist for Rudy, Medved is carrying the same bucket of water many Gore supporters lugged around in 2000 when they warned Democrats that a vote for Nader was a vote to elect Bush.

And yet there is that 58% who want an alternative to the two major parties...and the stubborn half of voters who stay home. So isn't there room for a third party to capitalize?

Maybe not. The problem is that those 58% are probably pretty diverse. Reading the comments here, you would think they were all conservative constitutionalists who wanted the GOP to move further to the right. Go over to the lefty sites and you will find a lot of people saying the Democrats are too captive to corporate interests and need to become more liberal. And then there are those like me, moderates who wish a pox on the extremists in both parties and a return to centrist government that seeks solutions to problems instead of political advantage.

Divide those three groups in rough thirds, just for the sake of argument, and you get less than 20% for each group, which is oddly the maximum amount third parties can expect to receive on their best days, historically speaking.

reply to AfricanAmericans4Paul
You're right about Jefferson and the eventual tangling and then untangling of the names "Democratic" and "Republican." However, Jefferson's name has long been linked in American history with "democracy," as in "Jeffersonian Democracy." Another thing that can be confusing (to us today) is that the expression "the Democracy" was used to identify Andrew Jackson's movement and what we'd call today his "regime."

It's great to see at least a few conservatives who maintain an interest in American political history.

DevilsPaintBrush
The black powder revolvers can be a lot of fun, just so long as you use the right lube to keep the cylinder from binding with powder fouling. I use those felt patches saturated with something like "Wonderlube". Can't remember the name exactly.

My revolver was actually my first "custom" gun. I bought a new EMF 1863 model and had the entire gun plated by Mahovsky's SS Metalife. The stuff is harder than chrome and near impossible to scratch. The gun looks like it was made from stainless, because of the plating.

I do my part, it shoots just as accurately as any of my modern pistols. It just causes me to have to stay at the range longer...which isn't a bad thing.

Haven't shot that gun in years. Hmm...

Dunce Hunter and Mike Huckster the worst
Why do these big government clowns keep getting mentioned here? Forget them.

I'm not voting for Giuliani -- no way, no how. In my mind, he's worse than Clinton. The reason for this is that Congressional Republicans will work with Giuliani, but will at least oppose Clinton. No one ever lost due to a third party candidate. Rather, these candidates lost because they were unable to win the votes of a plurality of those voting. The GOP does not own my vote, and I'll thank them to not act like they do.

I'll vote for Ron Paul in the primary, because he's the only conservative running. As for the presidential election, if there's a small government GOP conservative running, I'll vote for him. If there isn't, I'll vote for the candidate on the ballot with whom I agree the most.

hardcase
I would reconsider Rudy as the GOP nominee.
There are millions of us who usually vote GOP who WILL NOT vote for Rudy, for a variety of reasons. For me it's the amnesty issue, for others it's life, still others, homosexuality or gun rights. Whatever the issue is, it is a bright line we will not cross. No amount of Hillaryscare, intimidation, name-calling or cajoling will get us to vote for Rudy. He's in the wrong party. Rudy supporters are like someone holding a gun to his own head and threatening to blow his brains out unless we do what they say. Well, go ahead. Don't blame us, we tried to warn you.

Citizen Carrier

I still don't understand how Guiliani will protect us. The Muslims breed like rabbits and then our "friends" in Saudi Arabia turn them into radicals. We can never kill all of them. The only thing I see working is getting out of there and stealing their thunder, then if we get hit the gloves come off.
As to Iraq we fell right into Osama's trap. What good will perpetual war do when we are bankrupt and the Chinese come looking for their dough? To me that's a bigger threat than Saddam (who we supported) ever was.
And regarding sovereign nations, you are right Afganistan was not. When they attacked us we rightfully replied in kind but did not finish the job. That was wrong and we will pay for it.
Also, don't forget Hitler was elected, and what was the first thing he did? Take everyone's guns away. Kind of like Guiliani there. Which begs the question. I bet the Majority of Germans never expected a dictatorship but they went along with it because they were taught to fear the Bolshevics. The same thing can and will happen here if we allow our civil liberties to be taken away for a false sense of security. That scares me more than a million terrorists with exploding ebola bombs, or whatever the current "threat" is.
I also disagree about the world being safer for many reasons. Russia had something to lose. Our brainwashed Saudi sponsored nuts do not. If we should interfere anywhere it's there (how do you feel about monarchies?). But Bush and his oilycons have there noses so far up the kings rear they must be tickling his prostrate. Something fishy going on there.
But I digress. We will never agree and that's fine. We Libertarians are a kooky bunch. We actually believe individuals can do a better job of running their lives and protecting themselves (if they are "allowed") than governments ever can. And we also understand that once liberties are lost they are very hard to get back. That's the greatest threat we face.

Citizen Carrier
Yeah, it's amazing how accurate that Walker is.
But you're right about the fouling, I put some lube in the cylinders the first time I shoot it and can usually fire off about 30 rounds before I have to clean it. I liken shooting BP to playing in the mud as a kid, lots of fun but very messy. Consequently, haven't shot my "moderns" for several months (feel compelled to stockpile ammo for some reason). Still, might be time to get reaquainted with them.

DevilsPaintBrush
"The only thing I see working is getting out of there and stealing their thunder, then if we get hit the gloves come off."

We already were hit. I'm not interested in electing one who hopes that each new line in the sand is the one that cracks the case. Keep the gloves off until the other side has had enough. Yes, that might take years of an adversarial approach to an ideology that hates us because we do not worship God as they do.

"I also disagree about the world being safer for many reasons. Russia had something to lose. Our brainwashed Saudi sponsored nuts do not."

This still does not address the contradictory statements you made earlier. You first suggested that the terrorists are not really a threat. Then you talk about how the world isn't safe because of terrorists. That is contradictory.

Monarchies are illegitimate too, but that doesn't make them our enemy. Nor are we obligated to go after every illegitimate government. But when they attack us or renege on a cease fire agreement, they sure as HECK can't claim they are legitimate and sovereign. We should NEVER refer to them as such.

You also asked how Guiliani could stop terrorists from smuggling in a nuke. It would look something like the times our Coast Guard stops drug smuggling ships at sea. We do stop people bringing stuff in and even if we don't get it all, it is not a wasted effort.

It would likely involve HUMINT, and satellite imagery. A committment from our leader to stay vigiliant and maintain a tough, adversarial policy of engagement against rogue states. Yes, I think Guiliani is up to that task even if he isn't my first choice for Prez.

It was only a few months ago the Dems were talking about diverting spy satellites away from places like North Korea to instead montior for signs of global warming elsewhere. I don't think ANY REPUBLICAN, Guiliani included, would ever suggest something so awful and stupid.

Wonder Wads
Those are the felt wads I was thinking of.

Once I started using those seated under the ball, I could go a whole shooting session without having to disassemble the revolver to remove fouling from the cylinder base pin.

If I remember correctly, I tested the effectiveness of the wads by firing 60 shots or so of Pyrodex without any binding of the cylinder. I much prefer those to swabbing lube over the top of the balls. THAT is messy. Felt wads aren't.

And I know what you mean about the modern ammo. Over the years I have amassed about 260 rounds of 30-06 "black tip" armor piercing rounds on Garand strippers. Those are sealed in an ammo can with a large amount of commercial dessicant. We won't talk about how much 7.62X54R I have lying around...

Third Party
you are correct, but, with a real, strong, third
party Person, it could work. now our ballots are
full with weak, unqualified, choices. Is there
one American that can truly lead? After Bush,
any new snake will do. Capitol Hill is ravaged
with perverts, self serving, brain dead people.
we need hard working Americans. Not morons, who
cheated in law school.....

Medved clarifies an old problem
This is an excellent article by Medved! The problem of "3rd" parties has been with us for a very long time and the article has helped me make a real advance in my understanding of the issue. (I wish I could say the same for a lot of the commentary following it!)

In the current set-up the various candidacies function like their own parties. -You have to have your own campaign apparatus and money. Either you win in the primaries or you don't. (What a lot of the commenters can't accept is that they are in minorities and won't win. They rage against the immorality of the majority.)

What I find most remarkable about all of the above is what isn't said. Medved tells us 3rd parties are poisonous and hopes people will stop already. Some of the commenters say they *can't* stop. What we aren't told is how the current system should be changed to avoid the poison.

A modest suggestion: Have a nationwide primary, open to all parties. Follow that with a final election open to only the top two finishers. You wouldn't even have to get rid of the Electoral College if you didn't want to.

There might still be a problem with 3rd parties sending too many reps to congress and keeping any party from having a majority. But that is more a theoretical than practical problem.

Not to confuse you with the facts, but
I actually recall Perot's campaign, and he would have won, had he not melted down at the end. His insistence that Bush put out a hit on his daughter was a blow that no one could have come back from, and he lost accordingly.

Had he maintained his sanity to the end, I sincerely believe he would have either won, or come in a very close second. He was not alone in his belief about that "Sucking sound" of all our jobs going to Mexico, and surprise, surprise - We were RIGHT!

I'm actually NOT advocating for a third party candidate, because while I agree with much of the Libertarians' ideals, I don't believe in the near total lawlessness, as so many kool-aid libertarians seem to advocate. (ie, No drug laws, etc.)

I do refuse to plug my nose anymore, though, and if that means Hillary wins, so be it. There is not a bit of difference between Hillary and Rudy, and he's the RINO that comes up against her, then I'm out.

That said, however, I'm NOT going to sit on my duff and complain. I am going to vote in the PRIMARY, too, and get my two cents in on WHO will be the candidate. I encourage you all to do the same. This will be my first time, and if you haven't done so before, I urge you to make yourself heard, and take back the R party - for Republicans, and not RINOs.




Medved what are you smoking?
The Republican Party most certainly WAS a third party. It was composed of disgusted Whigs(Abe Lincoln for one) and independent small businessman,
farmers, and abolitionists. This coalition lost it's
first election, but won because the Democratic Party
split in half, allowing Lincoln to win WITHOUT a majority of the people voting for him.
You make a point, but deliberately leave out some of facts.
Do not push these Rudy or any other scum bag on me and tell me I MUST vote for him, if I have a better choice.

Liberty used to be an ideal -
M. Sederoff -

No need for legislation to outlaw third parties. Because of collusion by the two dominant parties, it is extraordinarily difficult to get third party candidates on the ballot.

***
Gestell writes -

"Elections are different; we have elections to choose office-holders who will operate a government. There's no doubt that third party voters feel great, usually quite self-righteous, about voting on the basis of their innermost beliefs. However, this has little or nothing to do with the process of electing people who will actually govern. The third party voter has opted out of that process."

I've been voting principle over the evil of two lessers for years. I don't think it was smug satisfaction I was feeling when I pulled the lever for LP candidates over the years.

As for electing people who will actually govern, if I wouldn't want them to govern, why in the world would I vote for them? In the case of the Republican field, I simply will not support a candidate in the neocon mold. Period. A Democrat will get my vote when they become pro-family and life and fiscally responsible and non-interventionist. Which is to say - umm - never.

Unfortunately for the Republicans, it's Paul or I sit this one out again. The LP or CP will get my vote, or no-one.

Clinton vs Giuliani isn't really a choice for Christians and libertarians. I choose neither. If that means Hillary gets the Presidency I'll mumble into my beard and deal with it for four years. I managed to survive Clinton 1, after all.


Carroll Quigley, in Tragedy and Hope
said "the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can ‘throw the rascals out’ at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy."

I'm coming to believe they planned it this way.

That aside, what really would happen if 75% of the people voted overwhelmingly for the same third party candidate???

CHUCK HUCK?
Mickey Medhead has been talking up Mike Huckabee, lately, in his effort to wrest the paleoconservative vote away from Dr. Paul. If you're a conservative Christian looking for a real conservative to get behind, you might want to read what Chuck Baldwin (Pastor of Crossroads Baptist Church) has to say about Mike Huckabee: http://vdare.com/baldwin/071102_christians.htm

"Vote your conscience?"
The advice to "vote your conscience" sounds really cool, but what it means is "vote your feelings." Don't think about electing someone who might actually be able to govern. Don't have a share, however small, in possibly influencing what elected officials do, and thus what government does. No, don't do that. Just vote your feelings. the ahppier you are with yourself, the higher your self-esteem is after voting, the better off you are. I don't like it when my fellow liberals get into voting their consciences. On the left that usually means they've picked Ralph Nader; the well-being of our Republic depends in part on maximizing the distance between Ralph Nader and any elective office.

Now imagine my shock when I discover that conservatives--self-styled red-blooded Americans one and all--are now talking about voting their feeeellllings! The horror, the horror. Whatever happened to your 11th Commandment? I remember when you guys really knew how to build and keep a majority. Alas, you've been Oprahfied as well.

So go ahead and vote your consciences; then you'll be just like liberals panting after the leftist of their dreams.

Someday, just for the H*** of it, can we just put somebody into the Oval Office who knows that it's neither a playroom for lustful guys who've never gotten past age 15 or a holy of holies for someone who gets his marching orders from God.

There is nothing in the Constitution....
There is no phrase in the Declaration of Independence or Constitution that says we have a "two party system." That is an invention of the two major parties now in total control of the government and the election process.

Frankly, we've almost got a "one party system." Both Democrats and Republicans are in favor of gazillion dollar budgets, gigantic deficits, public debt, and insane overseas adventurism.

If you're living with the foolish belief that Republicans are "fiscally responsible," take a look at what happened to the budget between 2000-2006, when Republicans controlled the Presidency and both houses of Congress. The result was out-of-control spending, monstrous deficits, and an unprovoked attack on Iraq that will cost us over two trillion dollars.

A third party doesn't begin to address the issues. We need at least five or six.

reply to Paolo
One major reason we have a two party system has to do with the way we conduct elections and count votes. We have what political scientists call a winner-take-all single-member district way of electing Congress. This means that no matter how small the margin of fictory, whoever gets a plurality (not even necessarily a majority) of the votes gets the Congressional seat. This is true for both the House and the Senate. The runners-up in the election get nothing. Over time this way of setting up voting encourages a choice between one potential winner and one potential loser. There is little or no incentive for anyone to form a political party and keep running candidates if there is no realistic chance for that party ever to win the seat.

Now consider what most European countries have (and many other counteries as well ): some form (there are many) of proportional representation. Instead of a district that sends only one elected member to a legislative branch, a district might send two or three or even more. In such a system, relatively small percentages of voters can guarantee that their party's candidate has a chance at winning a seat. This is one of the major reasons the European countries have multiparty systems.

Look at it this way: why form a party, work to keep it organized, operational, and funded, unless there's a chance that people running on its label have some chance of getting elected?


Our election system was established by the Constitution; changing it into some form of proportional representation would be an extremely drastic alteration. Indeed, it would reconstitute the American electoral process.

Here's a clear and accurate discussion of this issue:

http://www.fairvote.org/reports/1993/amy.html




Applying this to the Presidency
With regard to the Presidency, again, the winner takes all; no matter how big the percentage of the popular (or the electoral) vote received by the loser might be, he or she gets nothing. A win by a handful of votes gives the winner the office, while the loser goes back home. Now suppose that the loser (and his or her party) got a piece of
Congress proportional to the actual vote the loser received, or that we had some arrangement that required the winner to work with the loser to form a coalition government (common practice in parliamentary democracies).

The effect on our political system would be almost unimaginable.

Americans pay a price for their system--as do the voters who live in parliamentary systems. No system is perfect or foolproof, and we all know there are lots of fools in politics.

Single transferable vote
Australia is having an election in three weeks. Voting is interesting.

Each House seat is a single-member constituency. In the Senate, there are (if I remember correctly) six senators for each state, plus some hokey Eleanor Holmes Norton-type arrangement (if I recall) for the ACT.

Voters are required to vote, punished by a AU$1000 (=US$930) fine if they don't.

Candidates are ranked by preference. So you could vote for Green=1; Labor=2; Liberal=3. Votes are tallied on the first preference. The last-place loser is eliminated and all his votes redistributed to the second preference. In my example, if the Green party came in third (likely in most House seats), your vote would be redistributed to Labor. For multi-member constituencies, you keep going till you have enough members.

This carries on until one candidate has an absolute majority, plus one. For more detail, see:
http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/single/by_category/preferenti al.htm

Although politics is dominated by the two left/right parties, the voter has the possibility of registering a protest vote, but not "wasting" it.

This also admits of the possibility of tactical voting, which is presently being played on by the Greens. They want to hold the balance of power in the Senate. If they get enough second preferences, they can do it.

As you say gestell, "The effect on our political system would be almost unimaginable."

Republicans not a third party?
To claim the Republicans weren't a third party movement because the Whigs collapsed, is what I call fancy footwork.Yes, when Lincoln ran for re-election, the Whig's no longer existed; but that isn't the reason to claim that the Republican Party wasn't a legitimate 3rd party. They were considered Radicals, pretty much like the "Do Nothing" Party during that first election, but they (like the later Progressive Party) did have an ear to what the voters cared about. The current Libertarian Party and Greens (a European import) have yet to sell their bill of goods to the American voting public, but each party has grown both in membership and elected officials over the last 20 years. Clark and Browne ran surprisingly strong campaigns despite no financial support. You can also credit Clark with the creation of the Flat Tax movement.

Back to the Republican Party. What their revolutionary idea was abolition of slaves. They attracted voters from both the Democratic and Whig parties (note: as a party, the Whigs had only the opposition to Democrats as a reason to exist, which is why the Republicans could replace them in 8 years time) plus they brought in lots of independent voters. The Progressives were a branch of the Republican Party who got absorbed by the Democratic Party.

The Greens are basically an offshoot of the Democrats, while the Libertarians draw from the fiscal conservatives of the Republican party and the social liberals of the Democratic Party, plus a lot of drug legalization supporters. The Libertarians also draw from the isolationists of both parties. They are also the best organized 3rd party movement today. To me, it looks like Ron Paul is using his run for the presidency as a Republican to grow the Libertarian party.