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Wednesday, April 25, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
'Goldilocks' faith serves lukewarm mush
by Michael Medved
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When it comes to the issue of gay marriage, the Jewish Theological Seminary blinked and gave way to society’s shifting mores. So one must ask the question: Should we guide religion, or should religion guide us?

The ongoing battle over redefinition of marriage threatens to shatter a long-standing, popular approach to personal faith and biblical morality.

For several generations, most Americans have embraced what could be described as the Goldilocks attitude toward religion: affirming faith choices that seemed not too soft but not too hard, not too hot but not too cool. Majorities viewed easy-going moderation and comforting compromise as the religious path that counted as "just right."

Conservative Judaism — the "middle branch" of the ancient faith — always exemplified the "Goldilocks" orientation with its emphasis on the "sweet spot" between stringencies of Orthodox observance and the anything-goes adaptability of Reform. But just before Passover, the Conservative movement's flagship institution, The Jewish Theological Seminary (JTS), announced a controversial decision highlighting the painful contradictions of middle way religions.

Following the findings of an expert panel filed last December, JTS signaled its intention to accept openly gay candidates for the rabbinate and to raise no objection to their involvement in same-sex commitment ceremonies. For a movement that still stresses time-honored standards of Sabbath observance and kosher food, this represents a stunning break with tradition. A spiritual leader proudly, publicly promoting consumption of pork would never fit in with the Conservative rabbinate, but this same denomination now will sanction rabbis who call unblushing communal attention to their personal practice of sexual relations that the Torah describes as "abomination."

Following the written word

For more than a hundred years, The Jewish Theological Seminary and Conservative Judaism have prided themselves on honoring biblical and Talmudic texts, while applying more flexible principles of interpretation than their Orthodox colleagues. Unfortunately for today's leaders, there is little wiggle room on biblical insistence on male-female marriage. Not only does Leviticus (part of the Torah that's sacred to all Jews) specifically prohibit lying "with a man as one lies with a woman" (18:22) but the description of the very first marriage (between Adam and Eve) makes clear that the ultimate union of two souls requires partners of opposite genders. When the Torah (Genesis 2:24) says a man will "cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh," it's not just referring to an emotional or erotic relationship, but the unique ability of a male-female couple to fuse in the creation of children.

Religious liberals in Christian as well as Jewish denominations call it hypocritical to focus on biblical definitions of marriage or sanctions against homosexuality, while readily disregarding so many other rules from Scripture. Despite Old Testament references, they note, most people don't marry multiple wives today, or employ slave-like indentured servants in our homes, or avoid eating shellfish. But the Bible merely permitted polygamy and indentured servitude in certain circumstances, never commanding those practices for everyone. In Jewish law, male-female marriage, on the other hand, is a mitzvah — an obligation, a commandment. And to this day, Conservative Judaism still doesn't sanction shrimp.

As recently as 1992, the committee of leading Conservative legal scholars found that Jewish law clearly prohibited same-sex commitment ceremonies and admitting homosexuals to rabbinical seminaries, but public pressure — not some startling discovery of ancient text — forced adjustment to 21st century trends. Arnold Eisen, chancellor-elect of The Jewish Theological Seminary, declared: "The decision to ordain gay and lesbian clergy at JTS is in keeping with the longstanding commitment of the Jewish tradition to pluralism.

Pluralism means that we recognize more than one way to be a good Conservative Jew, more than one way of walking authentically in the path of our tradition."

In other words, he now embraces moral relativism in its modern-day "let's not be judgmental" garb and abandons the traditional role of religion to command or at least suggest clear standards for human behavior and intimate relationships. Jonathan Sarna, professor of American Jewish history at Brandeis University, justified this new direction by suggesting that Conservative Judaism couldn't survive without it. "A movement that wants to attract a younger generation of disaffected Jews had no choice but to make this decision," he told The New York Times.

Recent history in both the Jewish and Christian communities suggests he's wrong: Disaffected young people seldom flock to watered-down versions of religious faith that lack continuity or integrity. The rapidly growing denominations are those that make demands on potential adherents and advance clear standards of right and wrong. That's why Evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity has grown while "mainline" Protestant denominations have dwindled, and why traditionalist Catholicism boasts more worldwide vitality than liberal strains of the church. Meanwhile, Mormons uphold multiple restrictions (giving up alcohol, coffee, tobacco, among other things) and yet constitute one of the fastest-growing creeds in the USA.

In Judaism, the same dynamic applies: with tepid, uncertain versions of the faith fighting a losing battle to maintain the affiliation of their young people, while the unaffiliated explore enthusiastic, traditionalist sects. No movement in Judaism has experienced anything like the explosive recent growth of the Hassidic organization, Chabad, with its 3,300 community centers miraculously appearing nearly everywhere and transforming the face of American Judaism. The Conservative movement has been losing influence during the past 40 years not because of its unbending adherence to outmoded rituals but because of its confusion, contradictions and gradual disregard of tradition.

My religious foundation

When I grew up in a Conservative Jewish home in the 1950s, my mother took pride in the dominant position of our denomination — then representing a majority of synagogue-affiliated American Jews. She looked with disdain at our Reform neighbors who ignored customs such as wearing skullcaps at prayer, and viewed the Orthodox with pity as unbending Old World relics whose fanaticism doomed them to disappearance. Despite her confidence, my mother lived to see all four of her sons leave the comfortable compromises of Conservative Judaism — one of them for a Reform Temple, and the other three of us (and my dad) for active involvement with Orthodoxy.

The marriage issue plays a decisive role in exploding moderate equivocations in Christian denominations as well as in Judaism, as evidenced by the increasingly unbridgeable gap among Episcopalians between those who want to endorse homosexuality and those who hold fast to biblical proscriptions. Denominations must choose their ultimate source of authority: looking either to religious texts or to contemporary sensibilities.

The core question remains the nature of religion itself and our relation to it. Should we challenge ourselves, or our faith traditions? Do we measure religion against personal impulses and values, or should we judge our impulses and values against religion? Should we adjust our faith to suit current trends and to enhance our comfort and convenience, or should we evaluate trends in the light of timeless teachings, no matter how unfashionable or inconvenient?

The choice is stark and, on the issue of marriage, inescapable. Talk of "pluralism" only dodges the issue, because if religion fails to provide forceful guidance on the most crucial behavioral issues of life, it offers only meager servings of lukewarm porridge. That might be good enough for Goldilocks, but it won't nourish the spiritual seekers who desire — and deserve — more commitment and clarity.

This article originally appeared in USA Today
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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Sex Outside of Marriage is Sin:
Adultery is sin; fornication is sin; bestiality is sin; homosexuality is sin. These are the Biblical values with which I grew up. These values continue to guide my life.

And, sadly, I am grateful that my identity is essentially anonymous in this comment section, because I'm sure these words are viewed by many or most in 2007, as hate speech. I guess I may as well go all the way:

Those who engage in any sex outside of marriage as noted in my opening sentence, unless they repent and turn to God, will go to hell... that which most people now call "hate speech", the Bible calls, "speaking the truth in love".

Michael is about 10% right...
He asks "should we challenge ourselves or our faith traditions?". The answer is BOTH--a lot. The electricity that same-sex marriage creates is understandable. But it also illustrates the very problem with the trends of our faith traditions: outward appearance is not only the goal, it is the means to the goal. Holiness, personal piety--these are no longer part of our faith traditions. The culture is driving us toward same-sex marriage. Why? Not because they reject God or Christ--in most cases they have no idea of either--but because at this point, they reject us, and with good reason--we're grumpy, dour, hypocrites. Michael notes the Pentacostal movement and it's "demands". Is he joking? This only proves my point--today's American Church is focused totally on appearance and easy grace. Want to gain standing in your new Pentacostal church? Violate 1 Cor. 14 and blurt out "tongues" and you can impress your neighbors instantly. Want to live a life of personal humility, holiness and piety? Well, that's much tougher to do and tougher for your neighbors to observe. Adultry is adultry, fornication is fornication. Yet same-sex marriage is "the biggie", the issue that rallies us. Mobilize conservatives in Ohio? Put SSM on the ballot and drive voter turnout. It gives us the opportunity to lampoon the evil homosexuals, the liberals, etc. In other words, it gives (some, many, most?) of us the chance to be outwardly pius, which is pretty much the same as being "whitewashed sepulchres". Until we stop selecting our targets smorgasbord-style, we'll have no credibility in this society. Rush Limbaugh? Three wives, Viagara to help him fornicate? Yeah, he's outside God's will. Was Clinton? Yep. Was Newt? Three wives, at least two affairs? Yep...him too. We're heading toward conservatives supporting the first President that is a member of a cult! When James Dobson decries Rush and Newt's fornication along with Clinton's and the gays/lesbians, and comes out squarely against Mit Romney, he'll have credibility. Until then, he's just a well-meaning political hack with a Bible that distracts us from the real goal. His act doesn't play anymore. Too many times our children have seen their Christian parents divorce...too many of them have seen fathers beat their mothers, or cheat on their taxes. The result is that, as George Will so eloquently observes, "Americans under 30 view homosexuality as like being left-handed". What do we expect? "Son, you can treat your wife as bad as I treat your mother, but don't you dare be gay."

When our nation's churches begin to abandon cheap grace and the corresponding focus on outward appearance, and return to the personal piety standards of Luther, Newton, Wesley, Lewis, Moody, and Calvin we'll gain standing with God. At that point, the culture may follow us, but really, who cares about the culture if they choose not to? Until then, our "faith traditions" are just show. Traditional marriage is obviously the only marriage our country should consider. If our churches had not embraced cheap grace, it is unlikely we'd even be having this debate. But they did and we are, and we can fight it, but it's here. The clincher for me was when my pastor preached that parents with children 18 through college-aged that were in serious dating relationships where they were engaging in pre-marital sex should be encouraged to get married, per Paul's advice. He was nearly run out by the congregation. Too many parents thought their daughter should see the world first, regardless of her fornication. Too many parents thought their son should not mess up his grad school plans, regardless of his fornication. In other words, fornication is OK, as long as it isn't homosexual. In other words, "son, be a whitewashed sepulchre like mom and dad".

false dichotomy
Medved asks, "The core question remains the nature of religion itself and our relation to it. Should we challenge ourselves, or our faith traditions? Do we measure religion against personal impulses and values, or should we judge our impulses and values against religion? Should we adjust our faith to suit current trends and to enhance our comfort and convenience, or should we evaluate trends in the light of timeless teachings, no matter how unfashionable or inconvenient? "

But these are false alternatives. In reality we all do both. Even the fundamentalists must do some interpretation to decide what the book fundamentally says, and even the atheist has beliefs forged in a religious society.

As Medved notes, jews have always been selective as to which parts of the Torah to be bound by. In fact, because there is such barbarism like the genocidal rules of war that one finds there, jews since the time of Jesus have reinterpreted Torah. That is why study of Judiasm centers on the Talmud and its analysis of scripture.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing that a book contains the wisdom of the ages, but also contains some of the prejudices of the ages as well.


Chris / Re: Speaking the truth...


Chris writes: “Sex Outside of Marriage is Sin: Adultery is sin; fornication is sin; bestiality is sin; homosexuality is sin.”

That’s what the Word of God says, in every translation I’ve seen. To take any other position is to oppose the Word of God, and who can stand against God? And if you think about it, why would anyone want to?


And you’re right, there are many who will call the Word of God (and pointing out the Word of God) “hate speech”, but there are also many around here at Townhall who aren’t afraid to “speak the truth in love”, in spite of the hostility they might receive for doing so.


The more people who are not afraid to speak the truth, the better :-)

In response to Christ
People don't 'go to hell' because they at some point indulged in sex outside of heterosexual marriage (which I agree is sinful). My wife and I had sex before we married, but that is not an automatic, irrevocable sentence of eternal separation from God.

People 'go to Hell' because they don't accept Christ's atonement for ALL their sins, including not only sexual sins but also lying, stealing, covetuousness, etc.

I meant 'In response to Chris'
... not 'In response to Christ'

What an awful typo!

In response to Geo
"Of course it wasn't a sin and naturally you have a place in heaven guaranteed. Straights don't go to hell regardless of what they do, only gays do"

Based on their comments, some people believe that. I obviously do not. Don't know why you're mentioning it to me.
Jesus, when asked a question about marriage, quotes the only passage in the Bible which lays out the approved manner of human sexuality: 'a man shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh'. Anything else is contrary to God's intent, and therefore sinful. However, I think that focusing on sexual sin (and most particularly homosexual acts) almost exclusively, is at best unhelpful and at worst damaging, to the Christian message.

If you do not agree that homosexual acts are sinful, that is your right, of course. But just because a person considers such acts wrong does NOT mean that person hates gays. The unwillingness to acknowledge this fact often makes debate far more vituperative than it need be.

The Final Solution
Daddy was in World War II and he personally helped liberate at least one concentration camp. (He has the pictures which were illegal to take, but he had the feeling that some day people would deny it ever happened). He doesn't bandy words about lightly. He calls both Reform and Conservative Judaism "The Jewish Final Solution."

Joshua was the lieutenant of Moses and took his place as leader as the People entered the Promised Land. There was a big argument going on in his day too, as to whether to take the easy road and "get along" or march with God. As you may know, Joshua's words were these. "Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

It is necessary to do right. It is not necessary to be comfortable. Remember all the people on 9/11 who listened to the soothing voices over the intercom and returned to their desks, sure that the holocaust next door was not going to come near them.

Remember what happened to those who chose to listen to soothing voices and not to save themselves.

Medved's Moral Relativism
Medved asks "Should we guide religion, or should religion guide us?" and then presents his own personal view as representative of moral truth and tradition. Responses each do the same. How else can it be when in reading the Bible each interprets truth and tradition. So religion guides and we guide religion. It, like everything else from life to economics, evolves naturally. That is the moral and traditional absolute. To insist your personal interpretation is truth and tradition is mere moral relativism.

my 2 cents
Why, pray tell, did whoever did it decide to put that silly picture of the swimmer in the article? What did it have to do with anything?

over
Folks when I was on the road last year for the elections and speaking to a group of fundementalists I was quizzed on every topic BUT gays. I was surprized and asked the sponsor of the meeting why I didn't receive any comments or questions about that topic. She said because we all have "one" and my aunt Millie is a nice lady. It appears to me that the religious may well chose the love aspect of religion over the hate aspect and keep thier families together. Just an observation.

one more thing
Pope Benedict XVI has spoken out against 'moral relativism', and George Weigel, a prominent (Catholic) writer has coined the phrase 'Catholicism lite'. They have no firm ground to stand on and they will fade. And the Latin Mass is returning.

This too shall pass.

I am a practicing Catholic.

religious capitulation
is the theme of Michael's article. I think it is God capitulation! It is God himself that we have to deal with, the creator, the one who gave His very Word to Moses. People can ignore it, and make up their own "religion", as Cain did in Genesis. God specifically said a BLOOD sacrifice was required to worship and be accepted of Him after Adam's fall. It was a representation of the awfulness of SIN, that innocent blood of animal was shed to "cover",or pay for sin. Cain decided to sacrifice vegetables, therefore making his own rules, this is what religious people do apart from God himself. God rejects them! The blood sacrifice was right from God, for a reason!It signified the foreshadowing of the Lamb of God who shed His blood to pay for all sin, and that all must apply it personally. God says our hearts are decietful and desparetly wicked (Jer.17:9),we must recognize our own pride and sin and accept God's gift in payment for our sin. I accepted with great gratitude, and now by God's promise I can go to heaven (Jn. 3:16).

Check your assumptions
That a long-standing sect is so dramatically changing their stance is... troubling. With the many religions that have no problem with homosexual clergy or marriage, why are they changing so radically? I have to wonder what they think they're going to accomplish with this move. And to whom they might be knuckling under.

I despise seeing anyone cave in to the thought-control BS spouted by various totalitarian movements. Now, for that assumption check? That includes the "Theocracy Now!" crowd who think that their religious dogma allows them to cram those beliefs down everyone else's throats through legislation, whether that be based on Judeo-Christian, Muslim, Neo-pagan, Atheist, anthropogenic global warming, or any other religious belief.

There's this little thing called the US Constitution that guarantees freedom of religious belief and practice, as well as equality under the law. Regardless of what various totalitarian movements think or want, that inconvenient little document's existence and contents mean that the majority does not get to deny, infringe, or crap all over the rights of the minority.

The same arguments about "God's will," "abomination," and "against nature" were used to outlaw marriage between people of different races. The same arguments were given that it would "destroy the traditional family." That certain groups were naturally promiscuous and would never adhere to monogamy even if they were allowed marriage.

Bull hockey.

Stop using your religion as an excuse for hatred and persection of a minority. Your religion is yours. Your beliefs are yours. You have no right to cram them down someone else's throat.

And allowing someone else to exercise the same rights you enjoy is NOT cramming anything down your throat. If it "offends" you, tough. No one has any right to not be offended. Those who claim they do are members of those totalitarian movements I mentioned earlier.

"To support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic." Part of an oath twice given. No cherry-picking allowed. Revisions only by super-majority amendment. Revisions subject to revision in the case of mob-mentality screwups.

Now, lest your knees jerk so badly you knock your teeth out and wind up with both feet in your mouths:
I say again, no cherry-picking allowed. I support your right to believe what you want, to exercise those beliefs, and to say what you will. I support your right to not allow homosexual marriage or clergy *within your religion.* I adamantly oppose those who would try to force you or your religion to change to conform to their beliefs.

I just as adamantly oppose your denying rights and legal protections to people you don't like for whatever reason by making legislation that turns your religion into the _de facto_ state religion.

If you can't deal with that, if you can't stand seeing someone you don't like enjoy the exact same rights and legal protections that you have, then acknowlege that you stand with the totalitarians who wipe their butts with the Constitution and quit trying to bill yourself as anything else.

The outcome is inevitable
We will continue to see these type of articles, and the debate will go on. But fundamentalists of whatever religion or denomination are wasting their breath. Their battle is lost.

Thank goodness.

The majority of Americans share an inner sense of justice and fairness. We know from science and in our hearts that somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of us are homosexual and prefer a homosexual relationship when choosing a life partner. No amount of bible thumping or religious propaganda will change this. These people deserve the same respect and treatment under civil laws as the rest of us. Period.

Before you jump down my throat, I understand that god speaks to some (but I assure you not ALL) of us through the bible. And some people like to interpret it to outlaw gay relationships. Thats fine. Those people should avoid gay relationships, and their churches should not be forced to perform or sanction gay marriages. But they have no right to legally enforce their opinion on who can have what relationship with whom on others who do not subscribe to their faith.

But we live in a country that thankfully understands the right of people to have different religions, or NO religion at all.

Civil Unions are legal arrangements that define the rights and responsibilities of people that formally enter them. They need not and should not have nothing to do with religion, any more than traffic or income tax laws should. No one should be required to have the blessing of any particular church, synagogue or mosque before entering on, though it is wonderful when they choose to do so.

I know some will disagree with me, but is ALWAYS interpretation when you read any text, especially one that is based in oral traditions and translated and retranslated. It is never god speaking directly to you. You are always an active participant in deriving meaning from any text. Thus the generally accepted meaning of stories and myths in the bible change over time as our culture changes.

As Americans understand this more and more states are passing civil union laws. We see this trend in Massachussets, Vermont, Connecticut, New Jersey, California, Maine, Washington, and the District of Columbia. There are strong trends or movements in this direction in New York, Oregon, New Hampshire, Maryland, Rhode Island, New Mexico, and Illinois.

Face it. The battle is nearly over. Our gay and lesbian relatives and friend are being embraced as full members of the human race and partners in our grand experiment in democracy.

Those who believe in god should see his or her hand in this evolution of our culture and be thankful.

Geo
Heterosexual fornicators will go to hell, if they don't accept Christ. So will liars, stealers, those who envy, those who dishonor their parents, those who use the Lord's name in vain---yup, everyone is destined for hell unless they accept the lordship of Jesus Christ. This is the ultimate choice (those on the left love choice-except school choice and salvation choice). That's why I love Jesus so much. He's a gentleman. He does not come into one's life unless He is asked. He does not force Himself on anyone. There is nothing about me that is worthy of His love and mercy- yet, it is there for the asking. All I need to do is love Him more than I love myself and my sinful desires. Unfortunately, that is something most people aren't willing to do. So you must excuse Him from not wanting in heaven those who wanted nothing to do with Him here on Earth.
Unfortunately, Geo, much time is spent talking about homosexuality, because we have been forced to address it. It is the great debate at the moment.
Believe me, I wish the teaching conversations with my kids had only to do with having good manners, or not taking the Lord's name in vain. Much time is spent on fornication out of necessity. They know that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is just as much of a sin as homosexual sex.

The only liar I see...
..on this thread is Geo.

Homosexuality
One of the psalms describe the Torah as "perfect". This "perfect" Torah condemns homosexuality as it condemns theft, adultery, sexual relations with a widowed stepmother, sorcery, murder, covetousness, and other things.

Ellison
So then interracial marriage is equal to homosexual perversion?

Why is it that
homosexuals always jump to calling people who say that homosexuality is a sin vicious, mean, Nazis, homophobic, etc? Isn't this the same thing that homosexuals are so mad about - jumping to judgement of someone else based on very little information?

Geo and Ellison: What proof other than a few lines of a post to say those nasty things about Gabby? She wasn't equating murder and homosexuality except that both have been around for a long time.

This is why trying to debate homosexual rights activist seems like such a waste of time. So few of them actually understand how to frame a logical argument and just devolve into name calling and the "you hurt my feelings so I'm not going to talk to you anymore" game.

Go ahead and call me homophobic - though that word doesn't even mean what you're trying to imply: that I hate homosexuals. Not that you'll believe me, but I don't hate or dislike homosexuals, even my flamingly gay friends. They know that their lifestyle conflicts with my religious beliefs, but we have chosen to get along despite that. I don't have to condone their behavior to appreciate and like them as people and friends. And they can see past my "restrictive, oppressive religious beliefs" as they like to say.

Homophobic should mean afraid of homosexuals, but like virtually all the rhetoric of evil and corruption, their words have no meaning based in reality. Making words have no relationship to reality is just another lame but effective tactic of people who know that they cannot win by logic.

Anyone else think
That Medved's 'tache makes him look slightly suspect? I mean, it's slightly ridiculous to have a pop at homosexuals when he wouldn't look out of place in a Village People tribute act...

Like it or not....
"So one must ask the question: Should we guide religion, or should religion guide us? "


Like it or not, society shapes religion.

If it did not, we would all still "know" that the Earth is the center of the universe.

As for me
My religion guides me. Society will answer for trying to lead God. I would not attend a congregation that gave over to social demands. If you want a social center, then start one, but if you want to worship the lord, do it the way He wants it.

Geo
No Christian can force you to become a Christian. It is impossible. We can only try to influence you. You are correct to say that those Christians who look the other way while heterosexuals have sex outside of marriage are not very influential.
Gabby did not equate homosexuals to murderers. She merely was stating that you cannot justify something as being okay, just because it is natural and been around a long time. Sin is part of human nature and has been around since the Garden of Eden. That does not make it okay. Sin needs to be combatted with every part of our being.
I believe that homosexual behavior is a sin. But I have never mistreated a homosexual. I do not wish that they spend eternity separated from God, quite the contrary.

Geo and Ellison...
I am....a listener, a reader...hate scholar. I have volunteered and been a member of the Simon Weisenthal Center in Los Angeles for many years.
It is a Holocaust archive, but it's primarily an educational center that addresses hate and works to eliminate it if possible.
My contributions to TH posts are analytical, as I'm sure many posters feel they are also analytical.
However, the sources of information those who are definitely anti gay, tend towards those who think and feel as they do.
These are not unbiased or suspect sources. Failing that, the last resort is reference to the Bible or some other ancient religious text.

I bear no disrespect for those texts. They are a foundation, and chronicle of how the writers felt about their world and ordered it.
However, I can disrespect those who assert to abuse an entire population of people. Something that has been done before, and interpretations of such texts are used as a reactionary license, rather than a reference to how religion has been formed over the centuries.

It is the abuse of human beings that the Rabbinical college examined and decided that to confining gays and lesbians does not served education and assurance of the results of integration.
One cannot be certain of anything unless one is willing to open up possibility to learn more.
Prejudice and rigidity have no place in a learning institution, nor in society against a distinct and compelling group.

It is a moral thing to do also, to treat a human being justly, and THEN see what happens after, and not before.
The anti gay posters here are responding artificially, and without thought because in a way, it's as if they are in need that the Bible absolve them of no other thoughts on gays and lesbians.
This is selective, and as we are a growing, knowlegable and progessing race, we are OBLIGATED to focus our intellectual and social energies on a long isolated group that's had little option to speak for itself until very recently.
I'm not calling someone whose religious upbringing has taught them how to feel and how to respond to gay people, a hater.
However, I AM saying that there is much more, always has been MUCH more to see in the gay person except the very narrow and limited information provided by the Bible or any other text.
We did not stop our medical, social or any other investigation into our lives as human beings at the Biblical threshold. And stopping ourselves at what gay people mean to the human race at 2,000 years ago, or accepting ONLY more of the same prejudicial editorializing by OTHER biased straight people does not serve the progress that human beings MUST make.

There has been much tragedy and violence around the assertion of religion, more than the assertion of homosexuals as human beings. If anything, it's better to listen to gay people and trust that what they say bears more truth than anyone straight can decide is the truth. No one can know that, anymore than claims to know God's intentions and plans.
The Jewish Conservatives looked at reality, as well as history, and what the practical response should be to this distinct population that transcends all human cultures and families, and has since the beginning of all time.

God is not confused about the gender issues within man, MAN is confused. And has placed rigid artificial labels and boundaries on men and women, save the physical genders we all inhabit.
But the spirituality of man, the emotional and skill set within us, KNOWS NO GENDER.
God is not confused by the gay person, MAN is.
And every teaching moment and opportunity to learn more about gay people, even about WOMEN is shouted down, violently thwarted or repressed.
Even in AMerica, if not elsewhere.

You can't know what you don't want to know.
Faith also requires real courage to stick to the standard of treating a human being as you'd want to be treated.
I see that failure over and over again by many people who claim a belief in God. Yet, that claim is selectively enforced ONLY against gay people because this is the one aspect of human sexuality that straight people are not like.
Anything else, straight people commit also.
So the enforcements against 'sin', are virtually exclusive against gay people and no other perceived or known 'sinners'.

In ancient times, those who were different, sometimes merely strong in independent thought, were punished violently for not completely submitting to the church or temple.
This is more of the barbaric reactionary ways that church rulers could control the flock.
But we are a much more literate, independent and experienced population now.
And gays and lesbians are a TALENTED population. Competent and capable of all that heterosexuals are capable of.
The different cannot be brushed off so easily now as 'evil' or bad for society at large.
Reality doesn't bear this out. And it's long past time we recognize the brain trust within the gay population.

Our lives as human beings are better served by accepting this and Jews know too that can cannot afford to lose their talented brothers, sisters, sons and daughters to the prejudice.
And being gay isn't dangerous, nor life threatening in any way, so the urgency to change those who are gay isn't required as it would be in an addict or someone mentally ill.
Reality bears this out. Not the fantasy of gays and lesbians as beasts so uncivilized that they cannot be recognized as humans.

So, now...faith is strong where we trust in God to learn more, see more, be more engaged with what is so obviously an INDESTRUCTABLE symbiosis, so strong, that man hasn't been able to break the bond between gay people and non gay people.
Perhaps the hand of God is on that bond, and we can sooner find out when we accept that gays and lesbians are part of the trinity and caring bridge between and with men and women.
None of us is so purely male and female anyway...and neither is God.

Hmmmmm
Like Medved, I have chosen to embrace the fundamentalist roots of my faith. In my case, that faith is Roman Catholicism. I make no apologies for my Church. We have made mistakes. We have hurt people. We are imperfect and yet, there's something very beautiful about what we aspire to. The Lord forgives all transgressions, no matter how great, if we approach Him with a humble and sincere heart.

I am puzzled as to what gays want of me. I used to think it was acceptance, but it's more than that. I accept them. I recongize the sinful nature of the act, but I myself am not without sin. To deny them would be to deny everyone in my life, even myself.

Sadly, that acceptance doesn't seem to be enough to most gays. To read comments of many gays on this board and others, I must deny my faith in order to embrace them. That is wrongheaded. More importantly, that isn't going to happen.

As humans, we don't have to follow the Lord. He doesn't demand it. We can choose to ignore sacred scripture. We can choose to sin, and all of us do at one time or another. That said, it's important to acknowledge that we are not here simply to satisfy our urges and to gratify our wants. If we are, life is nothing more than a sensory trip, a total waste. I have trouble believing that the beauty of the world is about something so little and insignificant. I know what science tells me, but science can't tell me what science has not yet uncovered.

While I do my best to separate the sinner from the sin, some of you make it very difficult. I will continue to pray, in Christian charity, for clarity in your thought and recognition in your heart that there is more to life than your personal pleasure. And mine. May God bless you.

On Gabby
I am on the side that is glad that Conservative Judiasm has taken this step forward and accepted homosexuality for what it is.

But that said, the two attacks on Gabby above are unfair. He (she) is correctly pointing out that the fact that homosexuality is natural is not itself much of a defense of homosexuality. Although similarly it is the other side that has traditionally attacked homosexuality as unnatural, and it is as bad an argument as when it is used in defense of homosexuality.

Even when one is on the right side, one should not be overly sensitive to people pointing out the weaknesses in ones arguments. That simply shows you where your argument needs to be shored up.

The Battle is not lost
Judging by the marriage question in the last election, I'd say the battle is nowhere near lost.

Society doesn't shape God or Religion. People shape themselves and their own views of God.

They can say or not say what God is; or what He approves of based on their "religious views".
Even the devil is "religious". So what?

Religious views only shape a person's perception of God. It doesn't make them more or less a God-follower than anyone else is.

Taking a Bible to church, doesn't make a person any more religious than eating an orange makes one an orange tree.

On the day and the hour that people who say they are religious say to themselves that we as a people would "rather obey the laws of God than of men", then I'll believe that we are a religious people.

Even so, the question of same-sex marriage will not be resolved on TV, or at the ballot box. The question will continue be debated ad nauseum.

Good post Steve. I think you nailed it.


Steve - Thank you
for your thoughtful post and putting into words what I think. It's nice to know that there are other devoted people out there who recognize the fallibility of the church and yet the infallibility of God and His Word.

Bravo to the JTS
The question of whether religion should lead us or we should lead religion is an important one, but if you have to ask, you've already gotten the answer wrong.

The problem is the religion, Mr. Medved. Why you need an organization to help you deal with your relationship with God is the question you should be asking.

Lon - what do you mean?
about "accepting homosexuality for what it is"?

This goes to the core of Medved's argument: Conservative Judaism has gone against the Torah, which is supposed to provide the basis of its belief structure.

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the statement that homosexuality is a sin, you must recognize that this sect has watered down its message and lowered its standards in order to be more popular.

This is the problem Medved is actually addressing, not the merits of homosexuality. He would have made the same argument using the same structure had the leading Satanist church declared that God is the supreme being or if the leading Wiccan organization said that they were going to begin recognizing only Christian wedding ceremonies performed in a church instead of their hand rituals.

Once again, we've allowed the debate to be sidetracked by a hotbutton issue rather than staying on point.

justpaul
Your comment makes sense only to those who are not familiar with what God commands. I can't quote the exact verse, but the Bible does say that believers are to gather together to worship and fellowship. Not only does the Bible say that we should do this, but it is full of examples of people gathering to listen to teachers like Jesus, discuss and argue about things that they didn't agree on, and provide help to those who needed it.

Steven...I would respect you more
Steven, your post is a sincere one, and I respect that.
Do you REALLY want to know what gay people want?
Or is it really about what YOU want from THEM?
In religious societies, the flock is required to listen and never object to, challenge or be self determined-meaning, the church doesn't listen to the flock or manage the needs of it realistically.
You would not be denying YOUR faith, but another human being's equal access and possibility isn't YOUR faith, it's civil responsibility.

Gays and lesbians have more obligation to THEIR civil, familial and social responsibility than to YOUR religion or faith.
All of us who are alive, require love and being loved. That is God given to all of us.
But our ability to be good neighbors, helpful and socially strong, is not a matter always of religion, but realistic cooperation.

Gays and lesbians have to manage their significant relationships and be happy with or without you.
But the active isolation, punishment and disqualifying of gays and lesbians FROM their social responsibility should be unconscionable to you. Gays and lesbians have children, they have significant others that, if their partners don't care for them, the state will.
And why should the state do what a gay person can do better?

What you MUST accept, is that gays and lesbians cannot escape their obligations, and for the first time since slavery, adult gays and lesbians are KEPT from caring for themselves and their children.
Their children aren't living with YOU or anyone who feels as you do.
The alternatives, isolating gay youth, the lingering threat of violence and abandonment are coercive and haven't served anything but tragedy.
In this, religious principle hasn't worked to make things better. It doesn't better the lives of those who DEPEND on that gay person for their safety and love.

So, because the principle of religion has done much damage to this population, the acceptance has to be of gay inclusion in the important institutions of society.
Saying you love the sinner, but not the sin, is an empty cliche.
It's said over and over again, to a population not able to take advantage of their own abilities, but society at large surely does.
Gays and lesbians have not responded violently in kind, considering how cruel many in our country feel obligated to be.

As for that empty cliche regarding sins, just remember...all the other sins are not addressed in civil and legal responsibility.
This is no time to turn that exclusively on gay people.
What you are doing, Steven, sinner that you are...is that you and the rest of the AMerican public, are forcing gay people to work for you despite having to starve and watch you gorging yourselves on Constitutional (not Biblical) privilege.
And yes, the Bill of Rights allows for us to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
And the happiness of gay people doesn't compromise YOUR right to the same, nor are they demanding that you not be happy in your faith and privilege.
You just can't use it to deny THEM the same.

Many rules of the Constitution and Bill of Rights are being broken to hurt gays and lesbians.
And yes, there is a right in this country to be left alone to be different. And this difference is surely more acceptable than being uncivil to your neighbor for no other reason BUT the difference of being gay.

Remember too, you Bible readers....Sodomites were unjust people, who took advantage of someone else regularly. Who were unrighteous in being able to distinguish bad behavior towards another from being different.
They were distinctly cruel to the different, and took privilege for themselves.
So, I'm seeing a lot of people here who have yet to justify taking privilege for themselves while requiring the different to hurt.
Sodomite is not a homosexual, a Sodomite is a person who relishes their cruelty on someone who is or has been traditionally an outsider or stranger.

Steven, gay folks can tell when someone is selectively hating THEM. It's not about what they DO, it's about what they ARE.
The distinctions can't and don't come from the basis of hating the sin, but indeed...the sinner.
And saying anything differently is as phony and inconsistent in civil law and discourse as it sounds.

No, we're NOT all sinners in the eyes of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, we are citizens.
And a gay person's right to have what you have, is all that's wanted.
No more is demanded, and no less should be.
And as a man of faith living within the standards that govern us ALL, not just Christians, you should want no less for gay people either.



Marriage.....ps.
Only a moral designer/creator could make something so simple to understand as marriage. No Bible necessary to get full the message. Just create the hymen so as to break and blood to be shed and program every conscience to deduce the significance. Two things evolution could never do.

What the Bible Says
Heatseeker, you seem to be missing a rather obvious point. The Bible was written by a bunch of religious zealots who wanted to control religion. This is no different from a bunch of government regulators writing a white paper explaining why government regulation is a fundamental need in society.

Whether it is or is not what God wanted, intended, or commanded is another matter altogether.

As for examples in the Bible: Well, see above.

It is a choice
Justpaul states: "The Bible was written by a bunch of religious zealots who wanted to control religion."

I believe the Bible, especially the New Testament, was spiritually inspired by those wanting to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. As momof5girls pointed out, you can either CHOOSE to follow Him or not. No control there.

justpaul
That's what you believe.

As for me, I believe the Bible is the living word of God, that instructs and informs me and helps me live as an acceptable life I can in God's eyes.

That you choose not to believe this truth does not make it any less true or make me any less devoted to it.

That's the obvious point.

and another thing
All variety of people want to take this tack that I should wake up and realize that the Bible is just a book written by men with their own agendas, blah blah blah.

Aren't just trying to tell me how to live my life like they accuse me of trying to tell them to do when I say that I believe homosexuality or whatever else is a sin?

Excellent Article, but sorry day
I hate to say it, but being an outsider of the Jewish faith, this move says more about centrist Jewish capricious doctrine than anything about homosexuality and modern day trends.

The JTS should be ashamed of themselves. The word of God does not change with trends and social dogmas. Sin is sin...no black and white.

Jonathan Sarna's justification for the JST's move almost sounds apologetic. If anyone in the JST is concerned about their eternal welfare, then this organization will experience something very similar to the Episcopalians and experience a rifting split right down the middle.

This is religious apostacy at its best and the New Testament Christians warned about it. Too bad the JST doesn't subscribe to the NT.

Lastly, this is simply what happens when grass roots church leaders are PAID clergy...they usually end up pandering to their audience...NOT to please God, but their constituents whose "salad bar" convictions pick and choose which portion of God's word they want to abide by. After all, it is their audiences hand that feeds them, not the Word of God.

Arnold Eisens word sound like the decision was based more on a Public Relations issue rather than a religious doctrine issue. And his reasoning? To follow TRADITION. There's a big difference between following tradition and the teachings of the Torah.

In response to Geo
Insisting that there are only two positions on a subject -- approval and hatred -- is simplistic and demonstrably wrong.

heatseeker
What I meant by saying "accepting homosexuality for what it is" (I assume you were asking about the for what it is part rather than the accepting part) is a sexual preference which in itself is neither morally good not bad, but can be used in ways that are negative and can be used in ways that are positive. I was making the comment to a couple of people who I suspect shared that view so I did not feel a need to argue for it there as I would if I meant to be convincing someone on the other side of that point.

With regard to your later comments, no I do not have to admit that Conservative Judiasm is watering down its beliefs. Judiasm is a religion that places a high value on reason and growth. That is the main reason that jews have traditionally been successful individuals, at least when not burdened by oppressive discrimination. The result is that jews have generally been on the forefront of progress (although some jews have also been at the forefront of bad ideas as well).

Conservative jews are continuing what is best about judiasm by looking seriously at its doctrines and evaluating them for fairness. At a time when issues of homosexuality are being openly aired it is not surprising that Conservative judiasm would look at its own tenets with regard to homosexuality. And it is not surprising that such an open evaluation would lead to acceptance of homosexuality.

It is one thing to hold onto rituals whose rational basis is hard to identify (like the kosher dietary practices) when they do not hurt others. It is quite another thing to hold on to tenets that one cannot rationally justify and which do harm to others.

In response to Justpaul
"The Bible was written by a bunch of religious zealots who wanted to control religion."

If you wanted to control religion, couldn't you do better than inventing a Man who said things like 'Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone'?

Your claim violates the common sense test.

Wow!
I think alot of people missed the point of the article. What I really can't believe is certain people comparing us to animals. Unbelievable false argument. We are supposed to be smarter than that. Homosexuality is a sin...Period. Whether they will burn in hell I don't know. I am not GOD! I am not even worthy enough to be a his gatekeeper. So I think quite frankly I will leave it up to God, and worry about my own sins, especially since I have plenty. However, I will not commit more sins by capitulating to the left of this country and condone something I know not to be true or good.

Lon: your logic is skewed
According to YOUR belief system, homosexuality is "neither morally good nor bad." I'll give you that the state of being homosexual qualifies as such. However, according to the Bible, including the Torah, the act of homosexual sex IS immoral and bad. The Bible states this truth more than once. As such, it is wrong for the JTS to attempt to excuse such behavior and make it acceptable just because it's socially desireable. The JTS forfiets any moral authority by picking and choosing which parts of the Torah it wants to abide by.

As for whether you acknowledge that the JTS is watering down its beliefs and lowering its standards, it doesn't change the fact that that's what's happening. Live in denial if you wish.

As for Judaism promoting reason and growth, you're right. But this proclamation goes against the logic and reason that the religion is founded on. If the Jewish religion had been founded on ideals and principles of people who lived thousands of years ago, then "updating" it would be fine. But it wasn't. Judaism was founded on the belief that God is the supreme being who dictates right and wrong. Last time I checked, we hadn't gotten a new Bible from God that says "Ah - I've changed my mind and grown as an individual and now I realize how closed minded and restrictive my original rules were."

As for whether or not homosexuality hurts people: that is not an argument that is worth having because for every point I make you'll have a comeback and vice versa. All I know is that that is the most common argument for those who want to excuse their sin: "Well, it doesn't hurt anyone, so what's the problem?" All I can say is that if God said don't do it, he had a good reason. And every other sin that people have claimed doesn't hurt anyone really does. Sometimes it takes years for the hurt to become evident, but it's there.

You don't have to agree with me. But my logic is sound and yours is flawed. By the way - nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is interested in fairness. He commands obedience. And if you don't obey, there are consequences, either here and now or there and later. Don't believe - your lack of belief doesn't change the truth.

And just to make it plain - I have no problem with homosexuals being in church right alongside adulterers and liars and child aborters and hateful people and every single other person on this planet. That's why God ordained the church - to give all of us sinners a chance to get together and worship Him for his grace and mercy and to fellowship with each other and help each other along this road.

Just join another religion
I'm not Jewish, but a few years ago, I came across something Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch observed over a century ago when he anticipated modern secular fundamentalism with prophetic precision:

"It is now no longer enough for the apostate to be able to live undisturbed according to his convictions, as he calls them; to him there is no well-being and no peace as long as his convictions have not become the only ones recognized as right and valid.

"He sees in the Law an intellectual slavery from which it is the godly task of a second Moses to redeem his unfortunate brothers. In Torah-loyalty he sees superstition, backwardness, and at the same time a calamity which is to blame for all the miseries of the past.

"He sees in 'liberation' from the yoke of the Law a goal so high and so humanitarian that every means which seems capable of bringing about progress toward this great goal must be employed.

"He has reached the stage of waging fanatical campaigns of persecution against those loyal to the Law."

A better question than whether we should influence religion or should it influence us, is why should the apostates' convictions "become the only ones recognized as right and valid"? After all, there are undoubtedly many in that religion who like it just as it is; that's why they are there.

But the BEST question is why are these apostates trying to change what the religion teaches? It would be a lot easier if they simply joined a religion that teaches what they agree with. I think we all know the answer to that.




various
Ellison writes: “Sorry Gabby, but you are on a slippery slope toward Nazism.”

As Hitler & other “top dogs” of the National Socialist Society were homosexuals, I doubt that Gabby has any interest in joining the National Socialist Society.

Nero enjoyed “barbequing” children, women, & men who were Christians (as well as feeding them to lions).
Hitler enjoyed “barbequing” children, women, & men who were Jews (as well as torturing Christians who spoke out against him).
Reno enjoyed “barbequing” children, women, & men who were Branch Davidians.
(& Rosie O’Donnell has the audacity to call non-homosexuals Nazis?)

Chris writes: ‘Those who engage in any sex outside of marriage as noted in my opening sentence, unless they repent and turn to God, will go to hell... that which most people now call "hate speech", the Bible calls, "speaking the truth in love".”

The satanic left (comprised of socialist groups including Marxists/communists & Nazis) label any speech against them as hate speech while they spew forth hate for any non-satanic group.

Geo 3:19am
You must have been very sleepy when you made this posting because it is completely full of red herring argument. Where has anyone posted that their beliefs who are critical to homosexuality are "supremist"?

Where do you get the idea that Medved advocates that homosexuals belong in prison camps? Show us ONE shred of evidence.

You are simply dodging the intellectual discussion here but worst of all, you comments are as empty as Al Capone's vault and reveal nothing but an inflamed bias on your part.

Geo...once again
says, "They just wish to harm them [homosexuals]and their families, strip all legal protections from them and their children, spread lies about them, demean their life, existnce and human dignity and work relentlessly that society at large would abhor them. Outside all that they're "pure love"."

Those are ruthless, unfounded comments that once again only show how irrational you are. What if I said that gays want to pervert our families, strip us of our religious beliefs and legal protection and spread lies about Christians and our human dignity. Would that not sound like just a bunch of c-r-a-p? This is exactly what you're advocating. No critics here of the gay lifestyle advocate what you're saying...don't twist words and ideas here.

Your comments come from extreme ignorance. For example, you say "his [Medved's] kindred won't use Bible to bash and demean gays or advocate for hatred toward them in extent Michael would love to." Um, hello! Medved and his "kindred" are JEWISH...they don't subscribe to the BIBLE you moron! Why would they bible bash?!!!

You should not comment on topics that you know nothing about.

Ignorance is this
Ellison writes: Wednesday, April, 25, 2007 9:45 AM

"Gabby,

I get the impression that you are a bigoted and homophobic person. To compare homosexuals to murderers is outlandish, insulting, and ignorant."

That impression would be due to (1) your severe ignorance of scripture, and (2) your unfortunate propensity to ad hominem attacks.

I can't cure the second, but I can help a little with the first:

The wages of sin(*) is death. ANY sin. EVERY sin. So the slightest lie is equvalent to the grossest mass murder in determining the penalty. Almost perfect is still imperfect. And you can't be slighly dead. Homosexuals are not being compared to murderers - their sinful acts are. Gabby's statement could have been clearer, but if you knew the scriptures, you would have figured it out.

Jesus says that 'whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."', the context being unrighteous anger. Gabby didn't make the rules, God did, so stop shooting his messengers. Are you angry?


(*) Forgiveness is there for the asking, but repenting means taking another path, i.e., stop doing what you are doing.

heatseeker
Jews have a problem if they try to follow your method of interpretation. The rules of war as laid out in Deuteronomy explicit demands genocide of defeated enemies who live to close to one. They are almost as barbaric about defeated enemies who live far enough away, including the enslaving of women, etc. But jews tend to oppose both genocide and slavery, and so do not have your interpretive method available to them.

Christianity gets around this a bit by saying that Jesus changed things, so the stuff that Christians don't want to follow don't count (largely the stuff that would have been a disincentive in recruiting more Christians) and the stuff they do want to follow does count. Since Jesus himself does not seem to have cared about issues like homosexuality, it is possible for Christians to keep that stuff. But obviously Jews do not have the "Jesus changes things" argument to get rid of what they don't like and keep what they do.

This has pushed jews to traditionally engage with their texts more. That is why most jewish scholarship concerns the Talmud which is a work of scholars engaging with the Torah. That said, what is fundamental to Judiasm has been this kind of engagement.

When the Southern Baptists were still pointing out that the Old Testament gives rules for enslaving people, jews had already moved on. Perhaps they were watering down their religion in doing so. But in my view they were taking it more seriously. They were not simply reading and accepting, they were trying to understand. And they understood that whatever God was doing in giving rules for proper slavery it could not possibly justify 19th century slavery. And similarly now they are looking at homosexuality as it is, certainly through the lens of how society has developed in more than 2500 years, and they are saying that whatever God meant by pointing in those bans the way he did, it could not be meant to justify discrimination today.

Maybe that is a bit strong. Maybe they don't think it couldn't, they only think that it doesn't. The question is, when the values of ones religion conflict with other teachings of that same religion what should one do. The Jewish Theological Seminary is apparently saying that the deeper values are more important. I don't consider that to be watering down the religion. I think it strengthens it.

Obviously one could have a different idea of interpretation. But it seems a sad thing for a religion to consider issues about homosexuality to be more fundamental to the religion than issues about fairness and charity. The Gospels certainly suggest that Jesus did not see things that way.

The nature of marriage
Medved writes, "When the Torah (Genesis 2:24) says a man will 'cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh,' it's not just referring to an emotional or erotic relationship, but the unique ability of a male-female couple to fuse in the creation of children.”

The primary purpose of marriage is the fusion of the uniquely male and the uniquely female in the creation and rearing of children. While marriage certainly has emotional and erotic satisfactions, these satisfactions only contribute to the primary purpose, and are not the primary purpose itself. It is inherently impossible for a homosexual union to satisfy this primary purpose.

It’s only when marriage itself has no meaning beyond that of “getting papers” on somebody that gay marriage has a claim to stake. More’s the pity.


Straining at gnats...

A spiritual leader proudly, publicly promoting consumption of pork would never fit in with the Conservative rabbinate, but this same denomination now will sanction rabbis who call unblushing communal attention to their personal practice of sexual relations that the Torah describes as "abomination." -Michael Medved


Michael they will strain at a gnat but swallow a camel. This was part of the rebuke delivered to the Pharisees by Jesus Christ in Matthew 23…


“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! [Matthew 23:23]


Pharisees commended themselves to God by not engaging in physical acts of sin. They were innocent of murder and adultery because they had not committed the act. Jesus told them that hate and lust proceed from the heart. To think of the Law as only physical will lead to the neglect of its important spiritual aspects.

What you describe is a radical departure from Pharisaism. The straining at gnats is not compatible with the acceptance of the outward physical acts of sin. Without success many forces have come against you and tried to end your religion. Liberalism will be the end of it.

The Bible says in both Old and New Covenants that sodomy is sin. It is not surprising that sodomites do not agree. They are sodomites because they have suppressed the knowledge of God and have been given over to their own lusts.

Sin is a transgression of the Law. It rightly condemns us because we have no power over our sinful thoughts. The wages of sin is death, but redemption is in the Son of David, who delivers us from the curse of the Law. Those who believe the Biblical testimony do so because they are members of the New Covenant. Its great promises are the forgiveness of sins and the Law written on the heart, rather than on tablets of stone.

With a renewed heart that now loves the Law, the Christian now struggles with his sin. It no longer reigns over him. Christians are not homo-phobic. They are sin-phobic. Their fear of sin exceeds their fear of men. If Christ is not risen, then we are of all men most to be pitied. We deny ourselves the momentary pleasures of sin for the hope of eternal life in the presence of our Creator. Since we believe that Christ is risen, then we warn men to repent and believe the gospel, because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Silverdrake and Ellison
Silverdrake argues that we are being "tyrranical" and forcing our beliefs on others, however, same-sex proponents are asking everyone — all of society — to dramatically and permanently alter their definition of family, to say that male and female are not essential for marriage, family and society. They want us to believe male and female are merely optional for the family. Saying male and female don't really matter is harmful to all of us.

THIS IS NOT AN EQUAL RIGHTS ISSUE:

Same-sex marriage and interracial marriage are nothing alike. Segregation was an evil social problem. Marriage as an exclusively heterosexual union is profound social good.

Racism was about power and suppression —- about keeping the races apart, and that is wrong.

Marriage is about bringing male and female together, and that is good.

Marriage has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with a husband and wife working together to create and care for the next generation.

Striking down bans on interracial marriage affirmed marriage by saying that any woman has a right to marry any man. Same-sex marriage redefines marriage — saying men and women are optional for the family. And what is more, it is a very different thing for a child to say, "I have a black mother and a white father, than to say, "I have two moms and no father." There is no research showing interracial parenting is developmentally harmful to children, but literally thousands of studies indicate that children are hindered developmentally when they are denied their mothers or fathers.

What is most troubling about this argument is it implies that people who value the necessary contributions men and women bring to marriage are bigots. This is a vile implication and has no place in civil discourse!

A Fallacious Argument:
If we say marriage is not about husband and wife, mother and father, where do we stop in our redefinition? Andrew Sullivan, a homosexual writer, says, "The right to marry whomever you wish is a fundamental civil right."

Really?

What would he say to Jonathan Yarbrough and Cody Rogahn? They were the first couple on May 17, 2004, to get a same-sex marriage license in Provincetown, MA. When the media asked Yarbrough about their relationship, he said, "I think it's possible to love more than one person and have more than one partner... In our case, it is. We have an open marriage."

What will we tell these men when they want to bring their new love interests into their marriage?

When Cheryl Jacques, former director of the homosexual lobbying group Human Rights Campaign (HRC), was asked why same-sex marriage wouldn't lead to multiple-party marriages, she said "because I don't approve of that."

Wow!

Here's our question for Cheryl: "How come your disapproval of polygamy is more reasonable than my disapproval of same-sex marriage?"

Tolerance?

Same-sex marriage is not about tolerance; same-sex homes are tolerated in society. This is about forcing everyone to accept these experimental families.

Here's another question: If same-sex marriage is legalized, could the statement, "children need a mother and father" be deemed hate speech? It is becoming exactly that in Massachusetts. Swedish Pastor Ake Green was threatened with prison for preaching from the Bible about homosexuality.

Only months after same-sex marriage became legal in some parts of Canada, legislators there passed a law that carries a maximum two-year jail sentence for saying certain things about homosexuals.

Lon, sweetheart
It's obvious that you simply don't believe and that's okay. Christianity doesn't have to "get around" anything. That statement just shows that you have no respect for our beliefs.

I'm tired of trying to explain things to you because you will always come back with something that seems rational and makes you feel better about your disbelief.

God has shown me the truth and I am compelled to obey. It has no impact on you except that I don't want to live in a country that condones and promotes debasing, immoral, evil lifestyles that negatively impact us all.

Nothing in your argument comes close to excusing the actions of the JTS. What they did was wrong and their organization will suffer for it. Blather on all you want, but it doesn't change the truth of the matter, and one day you will believe. Unfortunately for those who think that they are smarter than God, too intelligent to be taken in by all that outdated, out-of-style way of thinking, their belief will likely come too little, too late. And I'm sorry for that.

ValiantForTruth
Excellent commentary! Take a bow :) I appreciate your approach. How can any proponent of homosexuality fairly call your words "homophobic" or "hate speech"?


Caballero kid...
Geo, is correct. That is EXACTLY what IS happening to gays and lesbians, and this is an institutionalized situation heteros relish in reminding us all of.
How often do straight people comment regularly that 'the majority has decided' on marriage. As if to say, 'it's decided, now you gay people go home and shut up?'

Michael Medved is now being critical of the Conservative Jewish branch for their expansion on gay integration.

Geo DOES know what he's talking about. However, Medved...Matthew Barber, or many other writers in TH are ALL straight people who know nothing about gay lives, have no interest in the REALITY of gay citizens and what their needs and obligations are.
Yet, have appropriated what we're all is to believe is the truth?
From WHAT expertise?! From WHAT experience?!
They speak of RELIGIOUS experience, but not socially relevant experience, which has the deeper, more important meaning in our diverse society.

Medved should know better, being a Jew, in this.
Jews, as a minority that is scattered and under seige, have a decision to make.
Practical matters, in saving their culture as well as their religious traditions, also include: is there MORE to know, more to understand, MORE to be learned with regard to gay people?
And this cannot be arrived at by closing off and isolating gay people to a nether limbo where human integration and contact is vital to KNOW FOR SURE.
Jews are not the only ones with a gay population.
Every culture has one.
Without exception.

So, the thought is...why is that possible? Unless there is a vital component that connects gays and lesbians to the majorty population.
As the thumb is connected to the hand. It is different, and less in number...and at opposite.
But still, vital to the hand. Which would be less skilled and strong without it.
As you don't question the thumb on your hand, the time now is to include gays and lesbians as something vital, but whose place can be found among who we all are as human beings.

Medved never addressed the fact regarding talent, and ability and commonality with gay people.
He only knows that he's not supposed to accept gay people.
Why, is very thin in comparison to why not.
Religious communities haven't accepted other things that are and have been found to be normal.
And the history of religious abuse is something to be wary of. Medved forgot to mention that this is also motive that Jewish conservatives are embracing.

We, as a human race don't know everything...and yes, as we've always been obligated...learning more IS vital to many things, not just our survival as a species, but knowing that the civil aspects of our diversity are something assimilating gay folks into can benefit us in the end.
It's a leap of faith these Jews are taking. Many Christians have taken that same leap of faith.
And yet, have you asked what they found at the end of that leap?
Have you asked me, or Geo?

I've taken that leap, where perhaps you haven't.
I trusted God and my faith is stronger than ever to defend my gay brothers and sisters.
Medved doesn't want to be tested. He doesn't want the humanity of gays and lesbians revealed in ways in which he'd have to reexamine what he thinks HE knows.

That would take courage on his part. It takes that on all our parts to see past the wall.
The epic tale of Gilgamesh and Enkidu (that predates Torah and Q'ran) has more metaphor within it as a tale of cooperation between disparate men for a greater good.
Jewish conservatives have rightly decided that joining gay folks among them for a GREATER good is the right thing to do.
And who is Medved to deny it?
There are profound evils to fight in this world, that we would more likely survive with all people of good will, regardless of their emotional or spiritual gender, can do together.

Gilgamesh was advised not to banish a potential ally to the wilderness, simply because he seemed too different at first. Gilgamesh learned later to embrace that brother was the right thing to do. Some Jews and Christians, and Muslims recognize it now too.

It's progress...and there is no proof at all, that it isn't.



Du
I must respectfully beg to differ with you...especially the fact that GEO is exactly right. Allow me to break down Geo's comments:

1) "They just wish to harm them [homosexuals]and their families"
First of all, who is "THEY"? Secondly, "harm" is a very broad, ambiguous word. What sort of harm? Geo alludes to a prison camp similar to Nazis...is this what we are to accept? Nonsense. My Aunt is gay and I love her. While I do not condone her sexual preference we are close friends. Additionally, my aunt would NEVER allow herself to be defined simply by her sexual preference. No...she is MUCH more than that. Yes, I am a heterosexual, but if one asked me to describe myself, that word would not come in the top 100! Yet so many homosexuals define themselves starting with their sexual preference! Du, we all have "needs and obligations" in our lives, but where does homosexual "needs and obligations" differ from any other persons BESIDES sexuality?

Geo goes on to say, "strip all legal protections from them and their children..." Really? The right to bear arms? The right to assemble peacefully? The right to life? The right to free speech? If Geo's statement were true then I and everyone else at TH would simply tell her to shut up because her opinion on homosexuality is not worthy of public discussion. Where has ANYBODY advocated that homosexual's children get strippedo of legal protection under the law? This you will have to show me names, dates and places where this was advocated.

GEO continues, "spread lies about them [homosexuals], demean their life, existnce and human dignity and work relentlessly that society at large would abhor them." Tell me, GEO, what lie about homosexuality spread by "they" pervades society?

Secondly, where is a homosexual's human dignity "demeaned"? Where is it advocated that homosexuals should not deserve human being status?

Du...I will address your issues now, but want to post this out. But I want to ask you...are you absolutely certain that "That is EXACTLY what IS happening to gays and lesbians"? I can understand GEO's issue if we are discussing Christians in the Sudan. I can understand GEO if we are discussing Jews in Nazi Germany or the Hutu's and Tutsi's in Rwanda, but GEO's claims (and now yours) are unfounded. As I said earlier: as empty as Al Capone's vault.

The reason why I attack this so, is because these are malicious statements. GEO is trying to portray those who disagree with him/her in a Nazi/fascist/tyrannical light and this is NOT TRUE. This is a heated, passionate political issue, but putting this with holocaust victims is not only unfair, it is a LIE.

ummm
Invoking the bible as a reason against gay marriage is a non-starter. Even assuming that the bible says that engaging in homosexual activity is a sin and punishable by death. The bible also says that doing work on the Sabbath or not keeping kosher is also punishable by death. Therefore, according to the bible, the punishment for homosexual conduct is the same as if I drive my car on Saturday and eat lobster.

The gay marriage debate, hinges on whether you believe being gay is a choice or a status. If you believe that being gay is a choice, then there is every reason to ban gay marriage because we shouldn’t want to encourage people to engage in deviant behavior.

However, if being gay is a status (an immutable characteristic) then there is no problem with gay marriage. Now if I’ve learned anything from the Ted Haggard incident, it’s that being gay is not a choice. Ted Haggard was leading the charge against gays, and if anyone didn’t want to be gay it was this guy. But because he could not choose what arouses him, just as I cannot choose whether I am turned on by blondes or redheads, no matter how much he hated gays, he couldn't control what he was-- a gay man.

Du...your thoughts
"Geo DOES know what he's talking about. However, Medved...Matthew Barber, or many other writers in TH are ALL straight people who know nothing about gay lives, have no interest in the REALITY of gay citizens and what their needs and obligations are." Might the same be said then about homosexuals and their view of heterosexual marriage?

"Yet, have appropriated what we're all is to believe is the truth?" Please expand...I am not following your thought here...could be a grammatical error?

"They speak of RELIGIOUS experience, but not socially relevant experience, which has the deeper, more important meaning in our diverse society." Once again, not sure of "they". If you are referring to Medved, that is because this article is about a religious group, the JTS. I would be more than happy to discuss the social relevance of homosexuality with you.

"Medved should know better, being a Jew, in this.
Jews, as a minority that is scattered and under seige, have a decision to make.
Practical matters, in saving their culture as well as their religious traditions, also include: is there MORE to know, more to understand, MORE to be learned with regard to gay people?" Once again, Du, you are making a false comparison. You are comparing the Jewish holocaust and persecution as an equal plight to the homosexual lifestyle. Were I a Jew, I would find this offensive.

Moreover, please expand on your thought of the JTS having a practical decision to make about religious traditions and it's relevance to homosexuality. The fact of the matter is that if the JTS did follow religious precedence, they would not have deviated from their history...not allowing openly homosexual rabbis. This is not a result of "close mindedness" but from the Torah. The argument here is that the JTS is a religious organization and their authorities did not make this decision based on religious precedence, but capricious social norms of the day....more of a PR move than anything.


itjake, on Haggard
I doubt he wanted to be a drug user either. Does that make this flaw in his chacater somehow more acceptable?

ITJake...
You bring up interesting points but I would argue that the issue does not hinge on choice/status:

Your assessment is correct if homosexuality is a choice, but you use Ted Haggard as your premise to suggest it is a status. Haggard's scenario does not acccount for identical twins in which one is gay (and there are many instances of this). Because they are twins, they have the same DNA...therefore it is in accurate to say that one is gay through a biological state or reaction...otherwise their twin would also be homosexual as well as all other twins who have a same sex gay brother/sister.

Evelyn Blackwood, University of Columbia professor pointed out in her book (The Many Faces of Homosexuality: Anthropological Approaches to Homosexual Behavior)it is very likely that in the very early years of a homosexual's life there was an experience or series of experiences where they may have adopted the behavior.

But let us assume that this is chemical or genetic...then we must also assume that heterosexuality is chemical and genetic, but what about a child molester? There is a strong argument of a natural predisposition towards children...should we now reconsider their rights?

Another argument: There is also strong evidence to suggest that men are NOT genetically predisposed to monogamy. Simply because of genetic predisposition, should we now consider repealing polygamy laws?

To hinge this debate on choice/status is opening a very dangerous can of worms.

More Du...
Du states "And this cannot be arrived at by closing off and isolating gay people to a nether limbo where human integration and contact is vital to KNOW FOR SURE." The JTS issue did not revolve around closing off the gay community and never again learning about the dilemma. The JTS issue revolved around whether or not they diverge from Torah doctrine and accept openly gay rabbis.

Du continues "Every culture has one [a gay population]...there is a vital component that connects gays and lesbians to the majorty population. As the thumb is connected to the hand...Which would be less skilled and strong without it." Du, I would argue that this is an erroneous issue you raise. Homosexuals ARE valuable to society- as engineers, physicians, architects, etc. But ONCE AGAIN, it is not their sexual preference that makes them valuable...it is the LARGER picture of who they are. Once again, you are trying to define humans simply by their sexual preference...not the bigger picture. The vital component which connects them to a majority population has nothing to do with who they choose to have sex with. What connects them is that they are humans, with brothers, sisters, skills, ideas, creativity...NOT SEX!

Now you might say, "this is my point! We should not be discriminated by our sexual preference." And our response? You are NOT being discriminated because of your sexual preference! Dare I go into more detail as to why?

"He [Medved] only knows that he's not supposed to accept gay people." Once again a dangerous assumption. Medved has never in any of his articles advocated that society should not accept gay people. This article does not even get in the universe of such a topic. If you want to stand on this argument then you will need to provide quotes from Michael Medved where he advocates this.

More rebuttal on the way...

Steve well said...

It seems to me that they don't just want you to deny your faith, they seek to destroy all faith. Truly we are entering the end times. And the Father of Lies is in charge. Keep the faith.

Du trois?
"Why, is very thin in comparison to why not." Why not have polygamy? Why not have sex with a 13 year old?

"Religious communities haven't accepted other things that are and have been found to be normal." A very ambiguous statement. An example please?

"...assimilating gay folks into [society] can benefit us in the end." If you are advocating same sex marriage, that has yet to be proven, and much evidence suggests the contrary. One thing is for sure, the true societal consequences are enormous. If a Christian considers the Biblical consequences, then the outcome is societal destruction (i.e. Soddom and Gomorrah).

"It's a leap of faith these Jews are taking. Many Christians have taken that same leap of faith." But most are NOT. And the lack of leap is because of FAITH. What is at the end of the leap? Please revert to my previous comment. Biblical history clearly tells us what is at the end of this leap, Du.

"He doesn't want the humanity of gays and lesbians revealed in ways in which he'd have to reexamine what he thinks HE knows." We are not discussing the humanity of gays. Of course they are wonderful, creative, productive souls as all children of God. We are discussing their sexuality.

Lastly, from reading your commentary (which I commend you for, by the way), I am still under the impression that you are trying to tell us that gays offer society wonderful value because of their sexuality. Tell me, Du, what value does homosexuality in itself bring to table of society?

Itjake1286
I get my laws from the New Testament, not the Old Law. The law of Jesus Christ condemns homosexuality. In Romans chapter 1. It couldn't be spelled out any clearer."for even their women did change the natural use to that which is against nature: And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman , burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in thEmselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient."Romans 1:26,27,28 I don't condemn the homosexuals, unless they don't change their ways.All I can do is let them know they are wrong, Then it is between them and God.

To Lon
Lon: "Christianity gets around this a bit by saying that Jesus changed things, so the stuff that Christians don't want to follow don't count (largely the stuff that would have been a disincentive in recruiting more Christians) and the stuff they do want to follow does count."

Sorry, he fulfilled the law, not abrogated it. Would it be asking too much for you to educate yourself before running off?

His death and resurrection superseded any killings and sacrifices. We are under a new covenant (Heb 8:6-13), so we don’t offer animal sacrifices in worship, stone adulterers to death, abstain from pork, or keep other regulations demanded by the old covenant. This is hardly "getting around it".

"Since Jesus himself does not seem to have cared about issues like homosexuality, it is possible for Christians to keep that stuff."

The New Covenant repeats the proscriptions against sexual sins (Lev. 20:13, Gen. 1:27): Col. 3:5-6, Eph. 5:3-13, Mat. 5:27-28, Rom. 1:24-27 (all of Romans for the explanation), 1 Cor. 6:12-20, Rom. 6:13, Mk. 7:21, 1 Cor. 7:2, Mk 10:6-9, etc, and declares homosexual acts "unnatural". That's a lot of material for "not caring".

What changed were not the categories of wrong-doing (sin), but the way to forgiveness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as "disincentive" goes, here's what we Christians put on our (US Marine-style) recruiting posters:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (The King, quoted in Matthew 7:14)

You tough enough?

There seems to be some confusion...

The Gay community keeps trying to tell us that we hate THEM not their sin. In the face of every Christian here saying otherwise, the Gay supporters continue this rant.

Here is and example from the Bible: 1 Cor 5:1-2 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?"

In this case a man is having sexual relations with his step-mother. This is NOT a gay issue, it is a fornication issue. And it is frown upon in the Bible. The man is highly thought of in the church. (They are proud.) Still, Paul tells the church that they as body should dis-fellowship this couple from the body. He is emphatic; 1 Cor 5:13 "Expel the wicked man from among you." The church does not hate the man or the woman... the church is to hate the sin. Sin has no place with the church.

Does that mean that there is no hope of this man ever being included in the church body again? Absolutely not!

Here is the conclusion of the sin above: 2 Cor 2:6-10 "The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him."

After repentance, we the church must allow him (the sinner) back into fellowship. The entire Bible is about repentance from sin. We all need salvation. Without repentance, there can be no salvation. Without salvation, there can be no fellowship with a church. It is our belief in The Lord (Who He is, What He did, Why He did it) that makes us a church. We are unified with Him and that makes us unified with one another. We are not to be unified with the world. The world has no place in the church.

Now, to the Gay community, we do not hate the sinner, we hate the sin. Is that concept beyond your ken?

Do you want fellowship with us? You must change. If you do not want fellowship with us then what is the fuss about?

Don't believe the hype
"What is behind the statement by the Canadian Psychological Association? Are its members just plain mad?"

No. They just aren't fooled by fraudulent footnotes like you are.

caballero kid...I'm trying,
gays and lesbians do not, nor do I define them by their sexuality, the straight world does that.
In trying to assert their HUMANITY, ths issue of sexuality is inevitably wound into the discussion, BECAUSE the exclusion that gay people suffer is based on their sexuality and not their full components.

And you have no reason to be interested in the thousands of cases of gays and lesbians who have arbitrarily lost custody of their children, were unable to be the custodian of their incapacitated beloved.
And it's YOU comparing the NUMBER and AGE of a spouse to the issue of consenting gay adults in marriage, not me. Which clearly shows that you cannot keep on point that the issue IS about adults.

You've lost the debate already when you put words in the mouths of gay folks and relate the marriage issue in ways that no heterosexual is required to.
If you think that gays and lesbians have enough, than how badly do YOU want to trade places?

And I certainly did NOT compare the Jewish holocaust with the situation of gay Jews, YOU did.
And a gay Jew would be offended by what YOU said, as gays didn't escape the Final Solution either.

What I was pointing out was that Jews would rather include gays and lesbians now as part of the preservation of their culture as a whole.
You've totally twisted around what I said, or you've highjacked my points someone, and I'm trying to stay clear.

And I haven't said that gay people offer wonderful value BECAUSE of their sexuality...but, because of everything else you just stated. Sexual consent between two gay adults, committed and monogamous couldn't possibly be of harm, and SHOULD be encouraged and secured through the optimal institution that rewards it.

Yet, you and others can't just discuss it on it's own merit, then you try and bring in number of spouses, child spouses or animals, which means YOU cannot see the humanity of gay people worthy of the institution and YOU feel too free to insult the efforts of gay people to have such relationships despite society's efforts to destroy them.
This isn't strictly about marriage, but other important aspects of integration.

And as for that leap of faith, one state allows marriage equality and hasn't suffered any ill effects because of it, and neither have any countries that allow it elsewhere.

But this isn't just about marriage, being gay isn't a choice and it's only straight people that keep trying to argue that it is.
Why argue with someone gay over that? It's not right or fair to do that. It makes one suspect that straight people keep arguing that, so as not to have to accept being gay as a natural part of one's inherency...and LET IT GO as such.
Let it go as an evil component.

And if one had to argue the merits of homosexuality, this sort of orientation for it's own sake...look around you, caballero kid.
Men and women DON'T get along so well. Brutally badly, in fact.
Women are forced to submit to men's terms and interpretations of religious laws all over the world.
If I wanted to argue the merits of homosexuality, it would be in the realm of emotional and spiritual bridge building between the extremes of heterosexuality.
We are more than our physical gender...it makes sense that there would be another orientation with the spiritual, mental and intellectual gifts that cross genders.

Every child born, is not every child loved, living well and healthy, now are they? And obviously nurturing a child is not a talent bestowed on GROUPS, but on individuals, of which gay people are no exception in this talent.
The perpetuation of the species, can't be perpetuated if men and women have children they abuse, and can't nurture.

And our species is far from in trouble of UNDER population. This overcrowded and polluted world, with it's teeming millions living in poverty, disease and violence, cannot be blamed on homosexual sex that doesn't casually and selfishly and irresponsibly procreate.

The merit of homosexuality, or asexuality, does require serious consideration...as more importantly the WHOLE gay person.
And if happiness, healthy companionate lives with another gay person creates a better substance in life for a gay person, what's the problem it IS NOT at the EXPENSE of anything, not even marriage itself...or the possibility of a family for a child otherwise abandoned and with no one.

The principle of EMPATHY must be weighed when we discuss these things. Don't dismiss what gay people have asked for and wanted as something unworthy of who they are because of either not demanding it before, but from the standpoint of what would you expect for yourself, and not tell yourself a gay person has asked for more than that.

Your are assuming the worst of gay people for wanting to marry (which in the real world isn't ALWAYS about children, and not a standard by which heterosexual marriage is measured), so don't measure gay marriage by children either.

EQual standards matter. And there is nothing about what gay people do that changes that standard...not even profoundly.
And when comparisons are made regarding interracial marriage, we're not comparing the characteristics of the parties...but the REACTION to the idea.
The reaction was just as unrealistic, just as mired in fear and urban myth, just as unreasonable as the complaints regarding gay people marrying conjures.

We are all different anyway. We are born to be unique to one another, the unifying factor...to love someone exclusively who is a lot like us, or not...is a freedom that all humans should have and believe in.
It's not unreasonable to expect that gay adults would need to marry each other because they love each other and want to care for each other's needs...because society at large won't and shouldn't have to, but will otherwise.
The world has, and always has made gay people to be companionate and cleave to each other too.
It's in a gay person's nature to do so, and why not encourage that?

It's unreasonable for straight people to expect gays and lesbians to do without, to ignore their longings for each other. Indeed, it's cruel.
And don't act like movements have worked hard to get between gay people in every way by any means necessary.

The DOMA reflects that, so does all the ad hoc Constitutional amendments that not only divide gay individuals and their children from social security, but also disconnect them from the ability to function even BETTER in society at large.
Any laws that do keep gay people from functioning fully and better in life, are what's wrong, not the gay person.
And that's what the Jewish Conservatives have reasoned. Sure, they might be deviating from certain precepts in religious belief, but women serving their temples and churches as priests and rabbis is a deviation too.
One that many churches and temples have lived with just fine.
These are the positive results of their leaps of faith.

To tell you the truth, when I was little, I demanded to know where the enlightened WOMEN authors of the Bible and Torah were. I wanted to know why women weren't priests...why ONLY men decided who talked to God and who didn't.
I was put in a corner for my impudence. But it was a fair question.
And since it was never answered...I will probably always find the Bible and such suspect and self serving of flawed, fallable MEN.
And so far for most of these two millenium, it has.

If I am to trust that book or any other put in my face as The Word of God...I better see some understanding of the fluidity of gender in real life, and not the rigidity in men's hearts on the subject.



Luther, personal piety, ha, ha, ha
STEVE POSTS: When our nation's churches begin to abandon cheap grace and the corresponding focus on outward appearance, and return to the personal piety standards of Luther, Newton, Wesley, Lewis, Moody, and Calvin we'll gain standing with God.


Hey, Steve, I was rah, rah, rah, go Steve until yhou blew it with this ridiculous untrue statement about Martin Luther's "piety". Luther was an apostate Catholic priest who fornicated with nuns. If you want to read the truth about Luther, read John L. Stoddard's book, Rebuilding a Lost Faith. He devotes a chapter to citing Luther's immoral personality, character, and code. He used his energy and remarkable ability not to help reform Christ's Church, but to assail, insult and rend it.

Luther broke his priestly vow to God, had a vile reckless style of preaching,condoned bigamy in order to retain a Prince in Protestantism, used vile language on a regular basis, arrogantly misinterpretated Sacred Scripture, adding the word by faith "alone", believed in witchcraft and advocated burning witches, and gave direct directives to burn and plunder Jewish property. I can go on, but I hope you get the idea.

answering Medved's question
MEDVED ASKS: "The core question remains the nature of religion itself and our relation to it. Should we challenge ourselves, or our faith traditions?


Men should be changed by Religion, not Religion by men.
---Bishop of Viterbo

Du Okie dokie, here goes
I Corinthians 14:34 " Let your women keep silence in the churches:for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.v 15: And if they will learn anything, let them as their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. 12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"





Rick D
Very nicely said. You do need to be tough to follow Christ. How nice that he gives us that strength to obey him if only we ask. To everyone who is so angry about the fact that God has rules and expects us to follow them- I have had to deal with my ego and wanting to control everything during my walk with Jesus. But how wonderful it is when I do obey!

we do not live in a theocracy
We do not live in a theocracy for a reason. We live in a country that very recently, but a few decades in the time line of civil responsibility and social integration, has received all it's citizens with reluctance.

I remind you all too, that the Bible...perhaps the Torah too, was used to subjugate blacks, women, gay people and non Christians...native Americans for example.

I would think you'd want to be cautious about history repeating itself. Gays and lesbians have worked hard to come from the shadows and reveal themselves, their REAL selves, not the monsters so many want badly to believe they are.

The quesion isn't that you believe them so uncivilized even marriage isn't right for them, even as it is for adulterers and murderers and thieves. Once or again.
The question really is: why do you want to believe them so bad, so badly?

Isn't it a relief to you that this is a group of people who ARE competent in everything and who resemble you and are not to be feared so much after all?
It should make us all happier and secure in our understanding that this population could HELP more than hurt anyone if allowed to with the same just opportunity you'd expect for yourself.

I find this need to hold gay people in such contempt NO MATTER what they do or say, more suspect now, than the gay people themselves.

It smacks of the supremacy that those who claim certain institutions are of THEIR invention, that others who are different cannot partake of it.
Segregationists very much didn't believe blacks structured anything good and purposeful to humanity, so therefore felt quite comfortable in denying what was considered white men's carefully constructed civilization.
Men also have been leary of including women in their formerly exclusive institutions...and so on.
We've seen and heard it before, and those who claim institutional supremacy....have ALWAYS been wrong, eventually.
And now gay people are forced to hear the same regarding the institution of marriage, or any other structure that's supposed to have been invented exclusively by heterosexuals.
And we're not supposed to say that the exclusions are hateful? When the exclusions echo that which was also the invention of the hateful?

The greatest danger to civilization is incivility. Empathy is a great guide. Listening to those whose have been pained, and we are right to examine if we are the cause of it.
Hypocrisy and contradiction cannot sustain moral authority, and fear and ignorance cannot teach it.
As I said in an earlier post...these are the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah-

When I see someone use the very words 'lifestyle' to describe a gay person's sexuality, that's an indicator of ignorance.
When the word 'preference' is used it's also the wrong descriptor.
When all the wrong words are used by people who couldn't POSSIBLY know what it's like to be gay, then why ignore all the right information from the source who would best know?

Why not believe that a gay person had no more choice than a hetero person had in their sexuality?
If you want to know caballero kid, what exactly has happened to gay people that you think is worthy of gay people stepping up for what they want...
There are plenty of sources besides here.
But considering what you're posting, are you ready to listen, REALLY listen?
You don't seem the type who sincerely wants to know.
And why should I trust that you'd listen?



CHRIS' 1ST POST IS RIGHT
CHRIS POSTS: Adultery is sin; fornication is sin; bestiality is sin; homosexuality is sin.
Those who engage in any sex outside of marriage as noted in my opening sentence, unless they repent and turn to God, will go to hell... that which most people now call "hate speech", the Bible calls, "speaking the truth in love".


Bravo, Chris, for speaking the truth in love. Almighty God allows copulation between only man and a woman married. All others, at all times must be chaste. God's Laws are good and for our own good and happiness.

Born gay?
DU POSTS:
Why not believe that a gay person had no more choice than a hetero person had in their sexuality?


Du,
For a number of reasons. 1. Homosexuality is not hardwired so say the scientists who worked on the Human Genome project. They've completed the study and no "gay" genes, were found. that means there is no genetic basis for homosexuality.

2. Homosexuality is a behavior and not an innate trait like the color of one's skin. God didn't make homosexuals that way. He did make man with a free will to choose his behavior and His law calls them to chastity the same as everyone else unmarried. It may be a great struggle for some with the inclination, but with prayer and a furvent hope, trust and belief that all things are possible for God, His grace will come through and grant the person freedom.

3. Scott Lively would answer your question this way: "The theory of special creation based on the Bible, states that men and women were created as heterosexual beings designed to live together in the covenant of marriage. They were commanded by God to shun all other sexual relationships under pain of His divine judgment.

God would not have created a genetic condition which sabotaged His own design, nor would He have created an entire class of people with no choice but to engage in a behavior which he had condemned." pg. 58, "7 Steps To Recruit Proof Your Child".

What do we do with the Bible?
As a Christian, I share a lot of common ground with Michael Medved. While I think it's a pity that he doesn't believe that M'shiach has come, I'm not about to throw a brick at him over this--not least because I can't find a word in the New Testament that commands me to do so.

Re the "picking and choosing" among texts:

First of all, Christians have to deal with the question of the coming of the Messiah (Jesus Christ is just an Anglicization of the Greek words that translate Yeshua haM'shiach), I suppose that if I were to stand in the Jewish shoes, I'd have to deal with the fact of exile; while the laws of Leviticus, etc. deal with a situation in the land in which the place of sacrifice is still standing. In fairness to the rabbis of Babylon between 400 BC and 400 AD give or take a few years, they probably did so.

As for the supposedly "genocidal" stance of the Old Testament, it is a warning that some peoples grow so corrupt that they deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth. I note that the same Torah that commanded the extirpation of the Seven Nations of Canaan forbade Abraham from inheriting the land in his own day because "the sins of the Amorite are not yet full" (Genesis 15). Further, in Numbers, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, Israel herself is warned that if they fell into the same abominations of the Canaanites (burning the firstborn to Ba'al, for example--parallel to modern abortion?), God would sic someone on them, too. Read the books of the Kings and the Prophets, and you will see how this was fulfilled in the kings of Israel and Judah leading the people in sin, until the Assyrians and Babylonians conquered them.

Compare the "genocidal" portions of the Old Testament with the screeds of Hitler or Ahmadinejad, and you will note that the Torah clearly understands that there's a covenantal cursing and blessing involved--and when the prophets are taken into account, it is clear that God did not exempt Israel (or the church? I read as a Christian) from avoiding the same sins that got the Canaanites wiped out.

I take all this just seriously enough to consider that our mighty, richly blessed, Scripture-steeped Western civilization, now that it has decided that God can kindly take a hike, is headed in the same direction. Maybe this is why our wise men and leaders cringe before a ragtag band of a radical Islamicists, whose so-called culture never produced anything other than a barbaric, crime-ridden slum surrounded by a howling desert.

I'm not pretending to be a prophet--just giving a pious, Scripturally-informed opinion.

Gay Rights Is NOT the Issue Here
Too many people here are arguing over whether or not people should be denied rights under the law because they are homosexual.

This article was not about secular law, but of Jewish traditions. Any honest reading of the Torah clearly indicates that homosexuality is condemned, among other things.

doggy...no hard wires for heterosexualit
Doggy, there is no hard wiring in the genes of heterosexuals. In legitimate scientific and gene study, there are no anamolies, aberrations or abnormalities in the sexuality factor of homosexuals, and DNA makes no pronouncement that the gay brain or sexual prowess or intent is inferior...
THIS is what scientists know as NORMAL.
NORMAL and equivocal, just inverse. This is not an issue of morality or that advances behavior that can be transversed to another person.

It's just another type of human sexuality, as is asexuality.

And Scott Lively is just another anti gay source. So referencing him as an expert is like referencing a man on what child birth FEELS like and what it is.
And as for nanna, quoting the Bible won't move me at all.

Black slaves got selective parts of the Scripture waved under their noses so they'd submit to their white slaveholders. Segregationists had their Bibles at the ready in State houses on legislating discrimination against blacks as moral reform and men waved the Bible around for the same reasons to deny women the vote, advancement in their own financial security and in birth control.

And Native Americans were forced to learn the Bible and deny their own religious values and cultural structure.

The Bible, if you want to use it for yourself still requires you to treat your neighbor as you'd want to be treated. By using the same Scripture passages over and over again to address this issue, it looks like you're looking for an excuse not to do EXACTLY what it says.
Besides, this IS not a theocratic country and we are subject to the Bill of Rights and Constitution, NOT the Bible.
For example, there are those who can't or won't accept certain medical treatments because they've chosen the religion that forbids it.
But they can't tell you or any other citizen to also be denied because of it.
THAT'S what's equivolent to this argument.
Traditions can be changed, and sometimes MUST.
And this particular tradition against gay people, is one of them.

It's not as destructive and hasn't been as so many are trying to predict.
Other issues that ARE destructive and have nothing to do with this argument are no longer subject TO a discussion, such AS polygamy or stoning adulterers.
Get real.
Please...get real.
Being reactionary is so much for fun than being reasonable, isn't it?

Jewish traditions too didn't allow women to touch the Torah or serve the temple as cantors and rabbis.
This was herecy too once upon a time.

Some things are worthy of reconsideration where tradition is concerned, getting hysterical over gays and lesbians no longer being treated badly is one of them.
And so far...nobody has proven at all, that condemning gay people NO, not JUST their sexual activity but GAY people as a whole, serves nothing BUT fear and loathing.
And there is no reason to do that, never has been really.

Caballero kid...
No YOU have no evidence that gay marriage has been bad for society where it's been legal for any period of time, and if you reference Stanley Kurtz or any other source like the Scandinavian study, I'll know for sure your source is unreliable.

And the religious taboo against organ, blood or tissue donation, or autopsy or cremation on a body, have been proven to be very beneficial to society.
The human race is also defined by it's curiosity, management of primal emotions to get at reasoned discourse and experience with the DIFFERENT to move forward and allow otherwise unattainable truths to be attained.
What's to be learned about gay people is wider and more important than the Bible provides or the narrow views of other straight people prompted by the Bible can want to learn.
And as I said before, we don't limit what we want to know at the threshold of the Bible, otherwise we never would have lived any better than the people back THEN.
So it's ridiculous to convince me that the threshold of what to expect from gay people is legitimate at that point.
I'm challenging your low expectations of gay people now.
Many here have revealed that they have them. And at the same time, confront gay folks in public discourse with impossible standards no human being can reach.
Smells of SET UP...unfair and unreasonable.


ESL, or denial

DU: "I find this need to hold gay people in such contempt NO MATTER what they do or say..."

Did you read this, DU (and the rest of you)? Your (plural) continued mischaracterization of Christians is getting tiring. It's a strawman argument.

BIRDMAN: "Now, to the Gay community, we do not hate the sinner, we hate the sin. Is that concept beyond your ken?"



du

And YOU have no evidence that gay marriage is beneficial for society. There is precedents for hetero marriage - none for gay marriage.

I cannot make sense of the rest of your post. It is all so muddy. Perhaps you can phrase thing differently? What are you trying to say about taboos, and definitions of the human race, and thresholds?

All I can get from it is feel-good-do-it nonsense. Perhaps that was the message you wished to convey.


Lukewarm

Michael Medved points out that the people of God are becoming apathetic about God and worship. It is becoming an anything-goes affair. It reminds me of the church in Laodicea of Rev 3:15-18...

"you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

American Christians for the most part are neither hot not cold but just lukewarm. American Christians are rich compared to the rest of the world. American Christians do not need a thing. They do not realize their wretchedness, their spiritual bankruptcy, their blindness.

They live by a prosperity gospel and worship their leaders and relegate God to the background as an after thought. It is time they opened their eyes and saw truth.

Truly, we are entering the end times.

This fails
DU: "What's to be learned about gay people is wider and more important than the Bible provides or the narrow views of other straight people prompted by the Bible can want to learn.
And as I said before, we don't limit what we want to know at the threshold of the Bible, otherwise we never would have lived any better than the people back THEN."

The Bible teaches all one needs to know about human nature and sin. There's nothing new under the sun. As a moral standard, it is perfect and absolute. Presumably, your second sentence refers to morality and not to transistors or transportation, otherwise it conveys no useful information. What we have already is God's perfect standard and what we do is fail to live up to it, so living better means getting closer to the his standard. This is no more easier nor difficult now than it was whenever your "then" was.

It's somewhat like comparing your National Protoype Kilogram to "Le Grand Kilo" in Sèvres, although Le Grand lost about 50 micrograms in the last 100 years. (See, perfection is not here.)




JC4EVR
Thanks.

BIRDMAN / Re: Lukewarm


BIRDMAN writes: “American Christians for the most part are neither hot not cold but just lukewarm. American Christians are rich compared to the rest of the world. American Christians do not need a thing. They do not realize their wretchedness, their spiritual bankruptcy, their blindness.”

Our preacher makes a point of speaking at length about this when he returns from his annual trip to the Philippines. He is overwhelmed by the eagerness and desire of the Filipino people to hear the Word of God, and he wishes there were more people in America who had such desire. I am sure there are some people here in this Thread who have done missionary work in foreign lands who could tell of similar experiences.


Our preacher travels to many difficult to reach areas in the Philippines, in the mountains and small villages, and these Gospel meetings are arranged in advance with assistance from local Christians. Many Filipinos come from great distances, traveling for days on foot or by bicycle to get to these Gospel meetings, to hear the Word of God.

Many obey the Gospel and are baptized for the remission of sins, and sit patiently and with great dedication and concentration for hours and hours in sweltering heat; as long as our preacher is able to keep preaching, they want to hear, and stay the night and preach again the next day, all day long.

They have none of the prosperity we have in America, it is one of the most poverty stricken areas of the world that he has experienced, but they are eager and cannot get enough of God’s Word, and that’s why our preacher keeps going back (and why we are happy to keep sending him :-)


Rich D
I agree that superceded sounds better than changed. There doesn't appear to be any difference in content though. But it sure sounds nice.

heatseeker
Given that anyone who accepts the teaching of the Jewish Theological Seminary is destinity to spend eternity in Hell, it is not clear how much else they stand to lose by not taking the evangelical Christian approach to homosexuality.

But you are certainly right that the rabbis of JTS are not good Christians. And if you are right they will pay the price for that.

Just one thought
Why do the "gay marriage" proponents keep referring to the "families" that gays have. A man and a man CAN NOT CREATE A FAMILY!!!!!!!!
Only a man and a woman can do that. Did you skip that class in biology?
If you left a man and a man on an island, after the destruction of the rest of the human race, guess what, they would not be able to start another human race.
What is it about that, that you can't understand.

One more thing - I am white - I can not wake up tomorrow and decide to be black. If I were gay, I could, however, decide NOT to engage in homosexual behavior. What is it about that, that you don't understand? It is about behavior. Are gay people just "naturally" obtuse?

Yes, I am homophobic, I am scared to death that we will sit idly by and, because we are afraid of hurting the feelings of 3% of the poplulation, we will let them take over and tell the rest of the population that they have to accept their disgustingly sinful indulgences of sexual depravity. I am truly frightened.

ANSWERING DU'S OBJECTIONS
DU POSTS: Doggy, there is no hard wiring in the genes of heterosexuals.
AND: No YOU have no evidence that gay marriage has been bad for society where it's been legal for any period of time,

Du, of course there is hard wiring in all of us when we are born. It's called the natural law. We can easily describe what is natural as in nature. In this realm, homosexuality is not natural. Homosexuality isn’t based on mankind’s inherent nature or the natural law. The natural law is based on man’s ability to make generalizations about things having natures, what they are, what is good for these natures and acting in accord with them. All living things have a nature, essence or purpose, an end or goal.

Human beings have an immutable nature that demands acting in accord with reason given that humans have an intellect or ability to think, understand and act based on conscience (while animals and plants don’t). All non-rational creatures like animals participate in the natural law only by instinct. We, humans, are unique, rational creatures that participates by inclination and rational free will.

The intellect enables us to think; the free will allows us to choose. The natural order here is the rational governs over the emotive.

We are all hardwired with it. It’s an indelible part of who we are. The fact that the natural law is based upon reason, upon thinking about one’s observations about reality, makes natural law a universal ethics since all human beings by their nature are able to reason and think about universal truths. Just as their are universal truths in the sciences, there are universal truths in the moral realm as well.

As I said above, homosexuality is opposed to or against the natural law on the grounds that the body parts don’t fit and they don't work as nature intended. Now, I'll add to that--common sense, logic, and the only life that comes of the practice of homosexuality is bacteriological. The point is if there were only homosexuality, their wouldn’t be any children born to keep the human race going.

JASON POSTS: However, that doesn't mean those couples cant have a full, pleasurable, sexual relationship (oral, anal, masturbation, etc).
So, here you seem to be expressing the answer to your initial question. Your thinking is more in terms of emotivism and hedonism which says that emotions and passions are the most important factors in determining our actions as opposed to reason ruling our emotions
"I think that, in the long run, the practice of homosexuality is physically, mentally and spiritually harmful to the individuals involved, their families, friends and society."

My convictions regarding the practice of homosexuality are 1st---it is deadly. There is plenty of evidence that reveal astounding levels of promiscuity, bizarre sexual practices and a range of diseases that are directly attributable to those practices such as hepitatis A,B, and C, siphilis, and gay bowel syndrome to name a few. On average, male homosexuals are dead by age 40. That can be bumped up a bit with medication available that slow--but do not cure--AIDS. 2nd---male homosexuals, as a group, are self centered narcissists who are incapable of forming lasting bonds to other homosexuals. 3rd---male homosexuals in general have a compulsion to sodomize teenage boys.
Yes, I know there are individual homosexuals who don’t fit one or more or any of these generalizations.

These are just some of the good reasons for society not granting homosexuals the same legal privileges as a married man and woman.

Sodo-"matrimony"? Talk about an idea that goes against the natural law! Why society (at least Massachusetts)has wrenched apart the 2,000 year old universal institution of marriage as between one man and one woman, the foundation block of civilizations, to recognize the impossible: Homosexual counterfeit "marriage" doesn't make any sense to me. None whatsoever.

Unfortunately, we have very few to no strong religious leaders who will step up to the plate and strongly resist this seemingly impending catastrophe.



doggy
"Unfortunately, we have very few to no strong religious leaders who will step up to the plate and strongly resist this seemingly impending catastrophe. "

Pope Benedict XVI has said over and over that homosexual behavior is disordered.

Personal---
Faith, is the necessary ingredient for anyone to
maintain an independent focus, and to be able to
continue with their own thought process as to what constitutes their OWN belief system.

Collective thinking breeds hersy, and politics.

The challenge is to walk secure because you have
proven for YOURSELF the things that you choose to ascribe to, not because you have multiple
voices that support your position.

This, my friend, takes faith---which has to be
tested in order to recognize its value and place in our lives.

Faith is a gift, and the Bible is the only book
that references that. Do you have access to a
Bible? Look it up---it won't do you any harm---
in fact, you might learn something. You can do
that with out anyone finding out about it---let
it be your secret (ok)---it helps if you say a
prayer also. (try it once)


Pope and homosexuality
LUCRETIA POSTS: Pope Benedict XVI has said over and over that homosexual behavior is disordered.

I agree and avidly read all that the Holy Father has to say. Saying so is good, and yet, he has to put his disciplinary foot down when it comes to the American bishops as many of them are ignoring much of what our Pope says. Too many of them are riding high, asleep on the job and not really feeding their flock all the while the wolves attack and Satan prowls. It's as though there is a spiritual AIDS that has entered the episcopate.

There is great hope though because we know Christ triumphs in the end and He promised to be with His Chruch until the end of time. I'm not afraid, just saddened.


Huh?
Lon writes: Wednesday, April, 25, 2007 11:44 PM

"Rich D
I agree that superceded sounds better than changed. There doesn't appear to be any difference in content though. But it sure sounds nice."

Specifically what two things have the same content?



Why?
Why is it considered EXTREME by some on the left to not accept homosexuality?

Just because I don't happen to accept homosexuality as the norm, doesn't mean, as one silly poster wrote that I "wish to harm them and their families, strip all legal protections from them and their children, spread lies about them, demean their life, existence and human dignity and work relentlessly that society at large would abhor them."



Assumptions, again
Caballero,

You are arguing from fallacies. You define marriage's only purpose as being to produce children. Should anyone who will not produce them be barred from marriage? Should a bride and groom come to the altar with her pregnant and him holding a gene scan of the child proving that it's his? Are these questions extreme and ridiculous? They are the rational extrapolation for so narrow a definition of marriage as the one that you gave.

I saw numerous studies cited above that compare homosexual couples (who *could not* be married) to married heterosexual couples. Where are the studies that compare homosexual couples to *unmarried* heterosexual couples? Until I see them, the statistics are invalid _prima facie_, because they do not compare similar situations.

"Open marriages" are not that unusual among heterosexuals. Pointing the finger at one side and ignoring the same behavior on the other is hypocritical.

You speak of the good produced by a male/female couple as heads of household for raising children. This is generally true. However, any *stable* family structure is better for children than an unstable one.

I know several homosexual couples who consider themselves married. They are stable. They are monogamous. At least one has children that they have adopted after being placed with them for foster care. All that is lacking for real stability are the legal protections that heterosexuals currently enjoy.

By the way, all of them wish the militant homosexuals would shut the hell up and stop making the entire group look like a bunch of moronic freaks. And every one generally agrees with my personal sentiment that NAMBLA an abomination, and pedophilia a crime that should carry the death penalty.

This IS an equal rights issue. Every argument I have heard against homosexual marriage/civil union has been either exclusively religious in nature, or echoing the same arguments made against inter-racial marriages, and earlier, marriages for black slaves. Every one boils down to "I don't like them! I think they're icky!"

In answer to both types of objections, I refer you to the US Constitution. That -- not religious dogma, not some Christian or other flavor of Shari'a -- is the governing basis of this country, and it very particulary protects the rights of minorities against tyranny of the majority. If you don't like "tyranny" or "bigot"... walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

doggy, they aren't YOUR parts...
doggy...all you're doing is asserting what heterosexuals know...which is, what heteosexuals ASSUME about gay people.
You're only looking at it from a SINGLE point of view.
Gay people aren't complaining about the parts not fitting, only STRAIGHT people are. And that makes no sense for you to be so concerned about it.
Really.

Disparate physicality and sex...isn't your business.
Whether it's between gay people OR straight people.
Come on, non procreative sex is considered taboo, and THAT'S why it's easier to pick on gay people. They are different and have sterile sex.
So? SO WHAT?
Sterile sex is a no no, but obviously legislation isn't exacted against it any more.
But we know however taboo religiously, that non procreative sex, and masturbation are in fact healthy.
So what's the problem?
THAT is where it's archaic to term sexual standards on gay people not also exacted against your heterosexual peers that ALSO have sterile sex.

And the standards by which you're discussing disease or infection rates...you're only asserting it from prejudice and as if homosexuality is an inevitable vehicle for disease and sexual dysfunction.
As IF straight people are immune from such things?
And no...there are NO higher, more widespread incidents of disease among gay people.
But our worry should be such in all populations, and syphillis was the HIV/AIDS of it's time, except you don't have gay people to blame for that, now do you?
And hopefully HIV/AIDS will go the way of syphillis.
Unless you want it to stay out of some sense that it's deserved by certain people?
What does that say about you?
Did you approve of the Tuskeegee Experiment? Would you for gay people?
What WOULD that say about you? How righteous you are?
The medical establishment thought THEY were being righteous with the TE.

Your selective prejudice is glaring white hot here doggy, and the only sense you're making is based on that, and not full context reality.
Can we have a reality based discussion please? Not straight man's assumed reality, but the real world?


Rich D. As for the perfect word of human nature and such coming from the Bible...I'm not talking about moral relativism.
Do NOT assume that. But I am speaking from a different frame of reference and experience, which are great teachers also.
And sometimes what the Bible has said, HASN'T squared with reality.
I gave examples of what Sodom and Gomorrah were really about.
I also gave historical context to abuses that are religion based that our society MUST be wary of repeating.

If you're depending on the Bible for your expertise, then I will challenge it...because of the privilege that men have given themselves with it, and hurt others at the same time.

And I know that those who make claims and arrogate themselves with it's use, have a long terrible history that is convenient to forget now.
I have great grandparents, grandparents and parents...whose lives were terribly compromised by this arrogation of Biblical principle, and I bear witness to seeing it happen all over again and it pains me.
Because it keeps me at a distance from trusting that you know what you're doing and are capable of interpretations that are meaningful and true to justice, compassion and fairness.
That trust has been broken so many times...between people who state their faith, and who they exact it upon by civil law...and with terrible results.

Maybe you're not one of the outsiders who never had the power to confront religious injustice, and so you have no empathy or care to sacrifice your prejudice and reactionary license.
You are siding with power, control, injustice and vengence.
Fortunately, I know all kinds of Christians and Jews...the ones who know they don't know. Who are willing to reconsider something they hadn't had to consider too deeply before, I have all the respect in the world for.

But those who use their religion to be rigid, ignore history, ignore what their brethren have done that's reverbarated down generations, or to go deaf when their actions cause another serious pain and injustice, I recognize for what they are.
And it's not flattering, nor should certain people of faith EXPECT flattery and acceptence when they behave that way.
If you want to talk about behavior, yours is chosen and it's not controlled by law, nor can you enforce it or make our government enforce it by any degree.
It's called freedom.

And the freedom of gay people to express who they are, without fear of violence, threat to themselves, loved ones or careers...is ONLY fair.
Religious track records aren't as good as you wish it was.

The Bible also teaches that the most fundamental law is to treat another person as you'd want to be treated. Gays and lesbians are no exception to this, and your religious principle can't ignore it.

You AREN'T trying to treat gay people as you want to be treated and they aren't treating YOU the way you treat them.
You break that inconvenient little law, proudly and selectively against gay people alone, and you're accepting too easily that the government hedge that treatment for you with bans and discrimination and traditions that only go rigid around gay people.
Our public laws reflect that. So it's YOUR chosen lifestyle that asserts itself, and historically to the detriment of minorities.
And yes...to not have the basics for your life, love, family...marriage, career of choice...to be banned from them. That IS tyranny.
Consider how YOU'D feel if you had those things kept from you and for you to keep safe?
And you knew, KNEW that those keeping it from you, were not better or more qualified to do so.
If you can't even wear the shoes of the gay person in that way at all...then all you've learned is how to react against a group of people who cannot fight you back for those things.
And our laws ARE supposed to protect minorities from tyranny.
Again, a founding principle is excluding gay people alone.

And yet...there is no justification for it at all. You should know gay people now, better than ever...and you ignore every opportunity.
Even what is advised to learn.

And Lucretia, your words are very cruel.
Heterosexuals breed homosexuals. Gay people HAVE parents and brothers and sisters...and their own children. Everyone has a family, comes from one...and deserves to have one. Obviously gays and lesbians can nurture as competently as anyone else can be expected to with the right support and network of people.
God didn't make a mistake, MAN did in how he looks at his homosexual brethren.
Who are YOU to decide that homosexuality is a choice?
You only heard that from other heterosexuals. Heterosexuals hijack and control nearly every aspect of information on gay people and only consult with other heterosexuals, so what do you really know about it?

So what if it's a behavior? It's doesn't betray another person, assault them or hurt them. And it's not transferable, so your fears are all in your head, and not a matter of reality.
If it hurts your sense of supremacy...so what?
Since when is heterosexuality an irrefutable virtue?
If anything, straight men have sure caused immeasurable damage...whether straight men pervert their sense of masculinity or not, they protect each other to the detriment of others.

After all...I don't see them nearly as exercised about divorce and adultery as they are about same gender couples marrying.
And divorce and adultery most assuredly have destroyed marriage and marriages.

Too much of these posts are based in the abstract and theoretical...and THAT gets really old and tired.

It's all about straight people and what they think...and the subjects of the issue, have no voice at all that's respected.
There is more than one side to this...but unfortunately, only one side wants to believe itself.
I'll say again...hypocrisy and contradiction cannot sustain moral authority and fear and ignorance cannot teach it.
Gays and lesbians are an easy vulnerable target...and I can't respect anyone that take convenient aim at it, without also being consistent in doing so in civil law against all the other sins you so eagerly describe.
And the JTS is being consistent this time with the deviations they've made on gender issues. As have other churches.
And this deviation it turns out...hasn't hurt a thing.
A very brave leap of faith I'm proud to be privy to.












Assumptions, indeed
Silverdrake writes: Thursday, April, 26, 2007 11:00 AM

"Assumptions, again"

You are arguing from fallacies. You define marriage's only purpose as being to produce children. Should anyone who will not produce them be barred from marriage?

Before or after the fact?

"Should a bride and groom come to the altar with her pregnant and him holding a gene scan of the child proving that it's his? Are these questions extreme and ridiculous?

In a word, yes.

The social and religious reasons for restricting marriages have already been pointed out. You simply disagree in the face of the evidence.

"However, any *stable* family structure is better for children than an unstable one."

Really? So a 30 year old man living with a 10 year old concubine boy is OK? Do you approve of NAMBLA?


Here's the problem


DU: "But we know however taboo religiously, that non procreative sex, and masturbation are in fact healthy.
So what's the problem?"

You have diarrhea of the keyboard to the point that you aren't writing coherent sentences anymore.

"THAT is where it's archaic to term sexual standards on gay people not also exacted against your heterosexual peers that ALSO have sterile sex."

See what I mean? Parse that if you can.


DU
DU, Sir (or Madam), it's time for you to retire. We get your points, even when poorly expressed. Your posts never contain new material, are too long, and smack of whining. I'm flagging all of them from now on unless they are new, short, and to the point.

(1) We're human.
(2) We're smart, talented, able, and productive.
(3) We're persecuted like slaves were.
(4) We're born that way.
(5) We have no choice in how to act.
(6) We can't get our choice of careers or love because of heterosexuals.
(7) Our civil rights are violated.
(8) The Bible is wrong.
(9) Christians hate us, so they DON’T follow the Bible, so they are BAD Christians.
(10) Christians who make us church leaders DON’T follow the Bible, so they are GOOD Christians. (See number 9.)
(11) We can’t get our message out because heterosexuals control all of the media and information about us.
(12) God didn’t make a mistake: He created them male and female AND female-male, male-female, and don’t-know, don’t care, and none-of-the-above.
(13) The Bible was/is misused, so the Bible must be wrong. (See numbers 8 & 9.)
(14) Nobody really listens to us.
(15) If you’re not one of us, you can’t understand us.
(16) We’re NOT defined by our sexuality, and want to blend in, so we’ll call ourselves “gay”.
(17) Sexual consent between two “gay” adults SHOULD be encouraged.
(18) Christians who ignore the Bible (see number 13) are taking a “leap of faith”.
(19) You don’t really want to know what we want.
(20) You keep us from caring for ourselves.
(21) The Constitution is being broken to hurt us.
(22) Ethics and Secular Humanism is where it’s at.
(23) We are your thumbs and you are the fingers – your hand wouldn’t work as well without us.

Yes, you’ve said all of that here in the past few days in five or six posts. Look it up.


YOU said it
Rich D...just STOP it!
Has ANYONE defending equal standards for gay people defended pedophilia?
NO!

Has anyone defending gay equality in family and justice and Constitutional protections advocated for multiple spouses as well?

NO!!
NO!!
NO!!
So STOP bringing it up as if that's been the case.
Talk about straw men, are you so out of facts that you have to bring up the same tired conflation of homosexuality and the abuse of children?
That's like saying every heterosexual man who rapes a little girl, also means ALL heterosexual men can, will or want to rape little girls.
But considering how much rape, domestic violence and abuse that FEMALES suffer, even the lack of discussion of abuse of females by priests...looks like heterosexual males do little to keep their OWN in check.
And I doubt that you read serious gay related journals and media and their concerns are the same as any other sane person's would be.
Social and religious restrictions have come down to four very basic standards. Only FOUR, and marriage between GAY couples, do not alter those standards.
In the history of matrimony, certain other standards, encouraged and controlled by STRAIGHT males, such as marrying a very young female or polygamy, are no longer acceptable because of their lack of equity and history of abuse. So they will not be revisited again, nor is there as strong a political movement for it as their is for the population that gays and lesbians represent globally.
And you arguing that homosexuality being a choice invalidates a gay person altogether from marriage and family is STILL, isn't what GAY people say. Why DON'T you believe that it's NOT a choice?
This is a characteristic NO ONE has the option of agreeing or disagreeing with. And when the standards set, are not met by heterosexuals either, and DIFFERENT ones are set for gay people, and gay people KNOW it, such contradiction can't be defended except by pretending those standards aren't placed there arbitrarily.

Being homosexual isn't a 'disagreement' towards being heterosexual, or disrespecting the standards that marriage is NOW.
You're talking about it as if gay people haven't witnessed marriage in their own families, from their parents.
Yes, WE KNOW what marriage intends and protects.
We also know what it ISN'T, so don't play it like it's something ELSE again and set aside for certain human beings only and your standards are oh so consistent and complete and completely work all the time and have historically. Please.

Especially when the worst heterosexual exemplars...often something too that many gay couples NEVER were, have the choice to be married. Regardless of adultery, divorce, spousal abuse, incarceration, poverty...all the things that are marriage and spouse KILLERS...are not restricted whatsoever, in marrying once or again.
So don't start as if you have high quality standards for straight people you don't.
The standards you keep setting are meant precisely because gay people aren't expected to meet them!
Which is as unfair a set up as can be made.
And those gay couples and parents that succeed DESPITE the moving goal posts...are not respected and treated as an anomaly instead of the most common model.
Indeed, the fact that you bring up the most fear and loathing inducing thoughts like NAMBLA, just shows you have no respect or see the compassion and nurturing ability in gay people whether they marry or not.
They aren't going anywhere...and can't.
So, guiding and encouraging gay people through the best society has to offer shows our commitment to justice, and THEIR commitment of so much money, energy and effort to share in such a noble goal shows a great deal of respect for the institution they don't get credit for, and the straight destroyers of it, get too much of a pass.
But your reductions of gay lives and intentions are unfair and unrealistic, let alone...prejudiced.

Medved started a discussion.
Bottom line: Christians believe you're born bad, and Jews believe you're born good.
And in the turn the JTS took, are showing they have faith in the inherent goodness of gay people, and are willing to have gay people prove it once and for all.

So in this, they AREN'T deviating THAT MUCH from the Jewish worldview. The only thing is, they are investing more in including the talent that gay Jews have to offer, rather than excluding it.

And as I also said before, which you chose to ignore: physical gender is superficial and confined artificially. Spiritual, emotional, sexual and intellectual prowess that TRANSCENDS gender is very natural because those aspects of ourselves KNOW NO GENDER.
As is also true of God and Creation itself.
You act as if you won't recognize a fellow human being unless they are held as strictly male and strictly female with no variant that dare present itself on fear of repression or death.

God isn't male, female, black, white, gay, straight or so binary.
But to hear you all tell it, God is owned and delegated by straight males, and everybody else has to obey God's reps...who have only been straight males?
How so very self serving.

How many times and how often has THIS been a call to abuse others because of the station in which one was born. Not of goodness, but of condition?
I will believe, if nothing else, that the spirit of love might have to serve in interpreting the intentions of myself and others.
That goodness to another will have to suffice in proving that they are worthy people.
And I did not come to this lightly, but I have a lifetime of experience, and seeing the love of gay people...not only for each other, but for those of us WHO AREN'T gay, is proven in the compassion in which gay people try to express their sorrow, dreams and hopes to us all.
It is considerable and should be respected for what it is. Human beings reaching out to be studied, well treated and enobled by deeds beyond their sexuality.

You never have addressed what I said that when a human being is excluded from EVERYTHING based on the ONE thing they are and do that's different, defending their inclusion looks like defending their sexuality, when in truth, they are defending their HUMANITY.

But you only recognize the males and females the Bible told you to recognize...and they don't exist in the natural world, a just world.
Rather than find the reason God has them with you side by side and always has...you look for the reason to say they never existed or were meant to, when the existence itself it's a question.
But how much vengence you want to take IS in question and admit to what good that vengence has served God and the world.
You people wearing your faith on your sleeve, such a simple mastering of YOUR culpability in the success or failure with gay people navigating around the stone on the path, escapes you.
The JTS has removed the stone...so what are YOU going to do?

Remember too, that we are not ALL subject to the Bible or Torah...but we are to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our elected leaders, not spiritual leaders have consented to living under those laws too.
And denying a citizen the protections they offer cannot be trumped by individual belief and personal religion, it's on THAT this country was founded.
And gay citizens are being treated differently without the consent of the Constitution and that's against the law.
It's not against natural law to be different, self determined and collaborative with a reasonable whole.
Gays and lesbians do not stand on deviating from that core of understanding, you have been met halfway, and that's all that's owed you.
Now, the rest...is your turn, and somehow you are trying to abdicate your resposibility as a fellow citizen by hiding behind piety.
Fallacy isn't that just because you say so.
My reasoning isn't flawed, it's quite calculated and informed from many places and sources...first and foremost from the SUBJECT at hand...gay people.
You can't reason an issue from one side, as most of these posts clearly do.
You have to reason from both or all.
That takes work you're not willing to do, and neither is Medved.
But the JTS is willing to and good for them, they'll learn something valuable in the process that I already did long ago.

It's hard to stand up for the underdog, the misunderstood, the oppressed and isolated.
Jesus did...he understood, even if Paul didn't.
I'd rather take the harder road, that Jesus walked.
Where's YOUR pebble from your shoe?





No matching purse.
DU: "If you can't even wear the shoes of the gay person..."

OK, I admit it - I'd probably trip in heels...

YOU did and NAMBLA does
du writes: Thursday, April, 26, 2007 2:07 PM

"Has ANYONE defending equal standards for gay people defended pedophilia?"

You said ANY stable family structure and NAMBLA defends it. Also, I never used the P-word.



Fast typer
Wow! 1440 words, 13 minutes, 110 wpm, or DU must have this stuff ready to go.


du / blanket statements incorrect...
I do not mean to interrupt your discussion with Rich, but some of your comments seem directed at all Christians, and need to be addressed.


du writes: “Bottom line: Christians believe you're born bad, and Jews believe you're born good.”

These kind of blanket statements are not accurate; not all Christians believe “you’re born bad”, it’s that kind of thinking that leads to the baptizing of infants (among other things).


We are supposed to be innocent, like the little children:

Matthew 19:14 - "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Mark 10:14 - "But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

Luke 18:16 - "But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."


How could a Just and Righteous God punish an infant who dies but who has committed no sin?




Matthew 18:3 - “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

If children are born in sin, why should we strive to become like them?



We do not inherit the sins of our fathers:

Ezekiel 18:20 - “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

Galatians 6:5 - “For every man shall bear his own burden.”


If we “inherit” Adam’s sin, then how was Jesus sinless?


I realize some (many?) believe in “inherited sin” and Calvin’s “Total Depravity”, but if those doctrines are scripturally sound, they must reconcile and harmonize with the rest of the Bible.


They don’t.


du / ALL are subject to the Lord...


du writes: “Remember too, that we are not ALL subject to the Bible or Torah...but we are to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our elected leaders, not spiritual leaders have consented to living under those laws too.”


Only Americans (or people on American soil) are subject to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but ALL men everywhere are subject to the Son of God, whether we choose to believe in Him or not:


"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." (Isaiah 45:23, KJV)


"For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:11, KJV)


"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; [11] And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11, KJV)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



We are all subject to the Word of God, whether we choose to believe it or not:


“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. [49] For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 12:48-49, KJV)


Problem here
DU: "And gay citizens are being treated differently without the consent of the Constitution and that's against the law."

The Constitution defines our system of government, puts restrictions on its powers, and asserts what God-given rights we retain. It contains no laws at all.

What rights do you not enjoy as a citizen that other citizens do?



Really, DU, it's exasperating
DU: "The standards you keep setting are meant precisely because gay people aren't expected to meet them!"

*I* didn't set the standard. Stop telling me I did. Why can't you just call me stupid for accepting God's standard (which I quoted above on 4/25 at 6:43pm) and let it go at that?

Or maybe you could accept that I'm not stupid and try to tell me why I (Christians) can't base my (their) politics on my (their) deeply held personal beliefs (like you seem to do)?


Rich D.,
I will give your comments exactly the regard they deserve:

You are a troll and an asshat who is incapable of actually reading a post.

*PLONK*

Natural Law, Sin, and Constitutional Law
http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/061116_homosexual_animals.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

I guess they're sinning, too. I guess God didn't make them that way, they did it as a lifestyle choice.

The fact of the matter is, whether you consider homosexuality a "sin" is irrelevant. That is your religious belief, and nothing more. That you think idolatry a sin doesn't allow you to go into a Hindu temple and destroy their idols. That you think it's a sin to work on Sunday (or Saturday) doesn't allow you to beat up people and trash businesses for doing so. This is not a theocracy, it is a constitutional republic. Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of the other person's nose.

As for whether or not the Constitution is law:
http://www.law.emory.edu/cms/site/index.php?id=3093

Article VI: General Provisions, Supremacy of the Constitution
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land..."

Amendment XIV: Privileges or immunities, due process, elections and debt.
Section 1
...No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I have seen no good reason to continue to deny homosexuals equality under the law in this matter.

I have seen many good reasons to cease denying it -- most of which, ironically, have been held up as reasons to continue it. I am not only amazed by the hypocrisy of some of these positions, but by the fact that so many holding them cannot, or will not, see how baldly two-faced they are being by doing so. As to what those positions are, look back upthread; I've already mentioned quite a few of them.

No answer
Silverdrake writes: Friday, April, 27, 2007 9:52 AM

"The fact of the matter is, whether you consider homosexuality a "sin" is irrelevant."

We keep saying it isn't; you keep saying we think that it is. Who can't read?

And if it's irrelevant, why keep bringing it up? Who can't think?

Yes, I know about the Law of the Land, but only treaties and laws are enforced. Who can't read?

So, Mr. ad hominen, what specific rights are you denied? You still haven't answered.

Oh, and please don't call me any more names, it hurts and I ran out of kleenex.



Choices
Silverdrake writes: Friday, April, 27, 2007 9:52 AM

"I guess they're sinning, too. I guess God didn't make them that way, they