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Wednesday, April 04, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Palestinian "Right of Return"?
by Michael Medved
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One of the most annoying quirks of our major media outlets involves their consistently misleading characterization of the current debate about demands for a Palestinian "right of return."

The latest Arab League peace proposal, recycled with much fanfare from a 2002 Saudi plan, includes a requirement that Israel should accept untold millions of Palestinians who would relocate into Israel itself, rather than making their homes in the newly created Palestinian State. Leading newspapers invariably describe this demand in terms that suggest that refugees would get "the right to return to their original homes inside Israel." (New York Times, front page, 3/31/07). Of course, this endlessly repeated phraseology sounds fair, compassionate, appropriate—conjuring up images of patient, oppressed, long-suffering innocents, finally able to return to their ancient roots and ancestral lands, shedding tears of joy as they renew and rebuild the "homes" they lost nearly sixty years ago.

Even worse, America's Journal of Record (and nearly all other publications and news sources) summarize Israel's objection to this "right" as a "fear that admitting large numbers of Palestinians would undermine the Jewish nature of the state."

Unfortunately, this ridiculously distorted description of Israel's point of view carries the connotation that the objection is purely racist: that the Israelis feel that the continued existence of their "Jewish State" is so precarious that they can't even consider admitting non-Jews (Actually, thousands of non-Jews arrive in Israel every month, prominently including workers from Thailand, the Philippines, Rumania and other nations).

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert recently re-enforced the impression of Israeli intransigence and anti-Palestinian racism with an unequivocal Passover-eve interview with the Jerusalem Post. "I'll never accept a solution that is based on their return to Israel, any number," he declared. "I will not agree to accept any kind of Israeli responsibility for the refugees."

Without doubt, overwhelming majorities of Israelis agree with the Prime Minister in rejecting the "right of return" concept, but his inability to express the proper basis for that rejection helps explain why his approval rating in polls has fallen lower than that of any prior leader in Israeli history.

The ongoing dispute over the fate of the refugees actually proves that the basis for the Arab-Israeli struggle hasn't changed in 60 years. The "War of Independence" began in 1948 because the Palestinians and their Arab supporters refused to accept the idea of an independent Jewish state in their midst, regardless of its borders or the clear-cut Jewish majority in the land originally mandated by the UN. Today, the insistence on a "right of return" shows that the Arabs still refuse to accept Israel as a sovereign nation, entitled to control its own destiny.

After all, they demand not only a right for any Palestinian to make his home in the new Palestinian State that the peace plan proposes, but they insist on an equal right for Palestinians to live in Israel proper. In other words, they demand not one Palestinian homeland, but two: one of them east of the Jordan, and the other one west of the Jordan. As part of the ludicrous "peace proposal," Israel would give up two of the basics of national existence: the right to control entry into the country, and to define citizenship. (And yes, as I've long acknowledged, immigration activists in the US are right to insist on our need to similarly control our own borders and to limit and regulate who gets the chance to live here. Without that ability – for Israel, or for the United States—sovereignty is hollow and meaningless).

Tzipi Livni, Israel's popular Foreign Minister, articulates the core issue far more clearly than Prime Minister Olmert. "Just as Israel is the homeland for 800,000 Jewish refugees who fled or were expelled from Arab countries," she says, "so a new state of Palestine should be the homeland for Palestinian refugees."

Actually, the Arab League and the United Nations currently count some 4.3 million Palestinians as "refugees" or the descendants of refugees – a hugely inflated figure which, if nothing else, gives the lie to claims of Israeli "genocide." After all, if 700,000 Palestinian refugees of 1948-9 have now become 4.3 million – multiplying by some 600% in less than 60 years—it's hardly an indication of genocide. Few populations on earth – certainly not American or Israeli – have boasted that sort of explosive growth during this period. Moreover, only a small minority of the refugees (and of the Palestinian population in general) were actually land-owners. Most were tenant farmers or "fellahin" or urban tradesmen, and most had arrived only recently in the area from their homes in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere, lured by the economic opportunities presented by the surging Jewish population in the 1920's and '30's. The idea that the great-great-grandchildren of such arrivals possess some inviolable connection to specific landscape in today's bustling Tel Aviv or Haifa is both illogical and altogether unenforceable.

The Israeli position may sound harsh in Prime Minister Olmert's formulation, but it remains eminently reasonable: if the Palestinians will negotiate peace, they get to decide who lives in their new state, but they don't get to decide who lives in the neighboring state of Israel. What's the sense behind the very idea of a "two state solution" if the Palestinians insist upon a similar "right" to live in both states?

No, the debate isn't about compassion for refugees, or protecting the "Jewish character of Israel" (a phrase that brings up the old, discredited "Zionism-is-racism" charge), or ethnic cleansing, or any other distracting issue cited by the American press.

The issue, as always, is Arab refusal to accept Israel's existence and sovereignty. Until the Palestinians and their Islamic allies come to terms with the reality and permanence of a restored state on the ancient homeland of the Jewish people, and drop the ludicrous demands about a "right to return," peace negotiations will go absolutely nowhere.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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They are just good hearted people
who want to do the jobs that Israelis won't do.

Sure a few of them will committ egregious crimes but American illegals do that too and you favor amnesty for them. Don't forget John Lee Malvo, the Fort Dix Terrorists who crossed the Mexican border, the 12 Americans murdered by illegals daily and the 13 Americans slaughtered by drunk driving illegals.

MM, be logically consistent. Amnesty for all or amnesty for none.

The Intl Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy

ABout the only time I'm tempted to believe in B.S. like an "International Jewish/Zionist Conspiracy" is when I contemplate the almost complete lack of available info about everything that happened in Palestine (or Palestine/Israel, whatever, I just mean that area, I'm not trying to offend anybody but it wasn't Israel then) from 1917 thru 1948. In twelve years of public school all I ever learned about about modern Israel was that it suddeenly popped into existence on the map around 1948 or so. Oh yes, also that it was created because of the Nazi holocaust.

Getting straight answers about thing like the Balfour declaration is like pulling teeth! And while I know of the existence of armed Zionist Militias like Irgun, Haganah and others (Groups that we would without hesitation call "terrorists" if their membership was Arab", I still don't understand why they were fighting the British. I've even heard reports that Zionist organizations in Mandate Palestine sought aid from Hitler & the Nazis in the 1920s and 1930s!

Anytime you find info that is ucomplimentary about Isreal you can count on a chorus of zealots (like "Beowulfe", "Inkling_Revival", and "Grateful-American" above) to practically hysterically shout "YOU'RE IGNORANT YOU'RE ANTI-SEMETIC YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GO AWAY SHUTUP!!!", and some material is obviously pushing an anti-Israel Arab agenda.

"Lon" above quotes Israeli historian Benny Morris as proof that palestinians were indeed forcibly evicted from their land.
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer230/230_beinin.html
But these historical facts don't turn me away from supporting Israel. In fact nothing does, but I also support the right of Palestinians to have a homeland of their own, and to be compensated in lieu of a "Right of Return'.

Grateful American
From another grateful American - unhyphenated. I am only interested in the welfare of America and the entire world, but not and other nation in particular. Maternal family arrived on these shores in 1639, paternal in 1647, so I have no other national self-identification.

Okay. You speak about attacks on Israel. Hm! That can be argued both ways. In 1948 who attacked whom? Interesting issue. Israelis seized land, declared Israel a state, then Arabs attacked. 1956 - Who attacked? Israel invaded Egypt. 1967 - Who attacked? Israel made a preemptive strike against Egypt to precipitate the war. 1973 - Yes, Egypt attacked Israel to get the Sinai back. 1982 - Israel invades Lebanon all the way to Beirut. 2006 - Hizbollah seizes two Israeli soldiers, hoping to trade them for some of the 9000 in Israeli jails. Israel invades Lebanon, dropping cluster bombs among other things, destroying many villages.

Back to the question. Who attacked whom? Not simple. As for suicide bombers, I condemn them. On the other hand, the Palestinians have no planes, tanks, etc to use. What about this suggestion? That the USA provide such equipment to the Palestinians (to make it a fairer fight) and then let them battle it out. As it is now, Israel with US backing has one of the best armed military in the world. When I have visited Israel (four times) it is obvious that the Palestinians face serious discrimination. Our Israeli travel guides would talk about them just as Southern bigots once spoke of African-Americans. And remember when Israel was buddy-buddy with apartheid South Africa? Oh, and have you read Carter's book yet? He makes a strong case.

Read both sides. If you do that honestly I'm sure you will join me in asking the USA to be BOTH pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. We can force a peace upon the two sides, but the AIPAC etc buys off or intimidates. No wonder Israel and the US are near the top of the countries in the race to be 'most despised'.

Much more - but Easter is an hour away and I need to get to bed soon.

Palestinians' Right of Return
Michael,
I appreciate your concise explanation of this issue. You're right - one certainly does not get this information in the MMM. I totally agree with you about Israel, and also that Olmert is not satisfactorily explaning his position. It also scares me that too many in our administration are becoming weak in their support of Israel.
I do wish, however, that you would, as some others have mentioned in their comments on your column, be consistent about the parallels between immigrants to the U.S. and immigrants to Israel. Your recent comments on your radio program indicate that you think expelling illegals from our country is not feasible, and therefore, they should be granted amnesty (let's not fool ourselves about semantics here). We have laws about immigration - let's enforce what we have and once again, become a "sovereign nation" (your term).

DISSENTER 57
You remind me of a wimpy schoolboy standing idly by as you watch another child being beaten up by the school bully. You, afraid of getting hurt, would rather not get involved and so you stood by and didn't intervene. You are a moral coward!

ROY
I suggested that you bought into the lies and deceit spread by those who want the Middle East Judentrein. I did not state that YOU wanted the Middle East Judenrein. There is a difference. I think the Israeli government and military has bent over backwards trying to appease the barbarians at its door. Had we in the United States faced the daily onslaught of violence the Israeli population faces, we would have destroyed them along time ago. Enough said!

Grateful American
See - you jump from my argument that the Palestinians need a viable state to accusing me of wanting the area to be Judenrein. I suggested nothing of the kind. I simply want justice and peace, which could preserve Israel.

Jews would be welcome to live on the West Bank as far as I'm concerned. They would simply have to be willing to live under a Palestinian government as Palestinians within Israel live under the Israeli government.

I'm not even contesting the Israeli policy of admitting only Jews. What a howl if the United States were to restrict immigrants to Christians, for example! And that howl would be justified. As you know, Israel has many characteristics of a theocracy, including its rigid Sabbath laws, disallowing Christian evangelism, etc. Even Reform and Conservative congregations have been forbidden!

Israeli defenders need to adopt a new and more flexible policy if they want to save Israel. Otherwise, eventually it will be destroyed by its hostile neighbors. Israelis who don't see that are blind.

Many within Israel do see this, and I've heard some of them speak, including courageous soldiers who refuse to serve in the occupied territories. And the press is freer to debate all this in Israel than here in the USA.

As mentioned, I have visited Israel four times, admire the country and its people, spent time in both Jewish and Arab areas, spoke with many Israelis and many Christian Arabs. But I detest its government's policies. The same way I feel about Iran, by the way. Fine people, rotten government. Israel is my Holy Land, sacred ground, and it needs to be much wiser if it is going to survive. It shocks me that more American Jews aren't alarmed, and urging the Israeli government to move in a different direction.

Keep smiling.

ROY
It is not Israel that is responsible for turning people away, it is people like you who have bought into the propoganda of lies and deceit so the entire Middle East will be Judenrein. Don't bet on it!

Sorry, Bullgod
I'm sorry, Bullgod, that you obviously haven't read both sides. You're a victim of one-sided propaganda.

Take that 'wonderful offer' Clinton & Co negotiated. To begin with, the three US delegates were all vehemently pro-Israel, beginning with Dennis Ross. Then, the proposal never was presented officially to the Palestinians. And, if it had been, there was simply too much in it that was totally unacceptable to self-respecting Palestinians.

For example, major settlements were going to remain with "Jewish only" roads going to them. Israel demanded the right to have military control - e. g., its army would control the eastern boundary of Palestine. The Palestinian state would be a bunch of separated cantons without adjacency in some instances. And much more, which I don't recall without reviewing the whole thing. Besides, Palestinians were not going to be compensated at all for their property losses and other oppression.

But those who want to believe only pro-Israeli propaganda will not budge. They're not interested in the facts. They are governed by an emotional attachment. I understand it, as I have emotional commitments of my own. What troubles me is that the USA has paid far too high a price for its willingness to be a puppet of AIPAC and company. 9-11 and our involvement in Iraq etc can be traced back to USA blind support of Israeli policies, many of them disastrous.

Read both sides! You have to do some research to find the Palestinian side as the media in this country are either controlled by Israeli enthusiasts (like Murdock, whose mother was Jewish) or by those intimidated by Israel-firsters. The newspaper in the community where I once lived ran a brave editorial criticism of Sharon. The local rabbi boasted that members of his congregation had enough clout (through ads) to close down the newspaper. From that point forward the editors were more cautious.

We need an open debate on Israel and its influence on our Middle East policy. For too long AIPAC and allies have tried to stifle that. They have strong supporters in both parties.

In the long haul, Israel is the loser. My prediction is that it eventually will be destroyed, and most of the world won't care. Israel has succeeded in turning the world against it. Sad. Not much time left to change that. It's my Holy Land and I want it to survive.

Andrew
I believe it was the Israeli historian Benny Morris who laid to rest the fantasy that the Palestinians left in the kinds of peaceful ways that Townhall seems to accept as gospel. There seem to be some disputes about how much of the terror that drove out Palestinians were part of a plan and how much was simply the result of extremist groups. Morris seems to have gone from the more innocent reading to the less over time.

But perhaps Morris is wrong. In fact there are no legitimate Palestinian refugees. If so Israel is acting stupidly in rejecting the right of return. If the facts support your side then the Israelis should accept the return of any Palestinians, and their descendants, who can show they were forced out of their homes using ethnic cleansing techniques. Since your contention is that there are none, this would give the Israelis the moral high ground while costing them nothing.

The problem with this plan, of course, is that Israel has a good legal system, and the idea that there are no refugees of this type is utter nonsense.

So are you sure enough of your "facts" to endorse such a measure?

reality dweller
It may well be a mistake to attribute to you the belief in the obvious consequences of the principles that you state. Like most people you want your principles to apply in the cases that you approve of and not in the ones in which you disapprove. In, other words, I suspect that you start with the examples you favor and then endores principles that will fit without thinking about whether those principles are even minimally plausible.

In this case you said:"Any sovereign nation has the absolute right to decide who can and cannot live within its borders." You give a quite reasonable application of this principle in which a traitor could be deported. But the principle is bizarrely strong. There is nothing in it that limits it to the case of traitors. It clearly covers the ethnic cleansing case as well. If any sovereign nation has the absolute right to decide who can and cannot live within its borders, then it can decide not to let its citizens of certain ethnicities live within its borders. That is to say it is within its rights to ethnically cleanse itself of some minority groups.

I think it is nonsense that this is a right of nations. You now seem to be indicating that you do too. If so you should admit that the principle you stated above is nonsense. Maybe some modified version of it would work. But one certainly does not seem such a general principle to get the right to deport traitors, and the mass expulsion of Palestinians had more in common with the simple ethnic cleanising case than with the removing a traitor case. The Palestinians could, en masse, be called traitors only on the basis of their ethnicity.

Lon thanks for the misrepresentation
"Reality dweller- at least you had the courage of your convictions to claim ethnic cleansing as a right of nations. It is a bizarre position to take, but that just underscores your courage in taking it."

Slow down. The above paragraph posted by you is an utter and complete fabrication. I know the left lies, exaggerates and embellishes. This however takes the cake. I mean it. It's as though I were talking about the price of bannanas in Guatemala, and you insist that I discussed 7th century painting critique.

I'm not even going to bother asking you why you thought I ensorsed ethnic cleansing (I'm crediting you with being a liar, because the alternative suggests such a cognitive disconnect on your part, it scares me).

My agreeing with Vic is this: Any sovereign nation has the absolute right to decide who can and cannot live within its borders. For example, if it were decided that any citizen of the USA who aided or gave comfort to the enemy would have their citizeship revoked, and be extradited to the country of said enemy (read: any demoncat currently in the US House of Representatives, that would be the right of the USA to do so, but only under law.

Notice how the very small example above involves no ethnicity, and of course no killing. Please do not try to emotionally and hysterically drag this debate into liberal fantasy land. Respond to exactly what I say, not the evil you wish were in my words, or please do not respond at all.

RD

Roy:
You write: "Remember the howl when Hillary spoke
of a Palestinian state?"

What I remember is that her husband Bill not only
spoke of it, but brokered a settlement that would
have given the Palestinians a state very nearly
on their own terms. Arafat (who needs no "demon-
izing" as a flat-out rejectionist and terrorist)
threw it back in his face in favor of continuing
his futile, murderous attempt to destroy the Jew-
ish nation. Hamas carries on that policy today.

So, Roy; how do you begin to negotiate with an
organization which says you have no right to
exist? Which holds the official goal of destroy-
you? Which murders innocent civilians on a reg-
ular basis? Which has already demonstrated an
unwillingness to negotiate in good faith?

I DO read plenty about the issue; the conclusion
I've come to is that the obstacle to peace and
prosperity in the region is the Palestinian
leadership.

BTW - "bullgod" was a typo originally, but I
kept it; someone else might want "bulldog". I
may seem to be "bulldogging" you on this issue,
but I believe it's crystal-clear who's at fault
for the continued violence in the region, and
I'm unwilling to allow you or others to simply
misrepresent the situation without a challenge.

JEFFISLOUIE AND ANDREW
Shalom and well said! Many readers are unaware that Jews have had a continuous presence in the land of Israel since time immemorial. There was never a period when Jews did not live on that land. More Jews arrived in the latter part of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Arab migration began after the Jews began to cultivate the land. They did not refer to themselves as Palestinians. They began to identify themselves as such in 1964 after Arafat, an Egyptian labeled himself and them as Palestinians. They are indistinguisible from the rest of the Arabs in language, culture and customs. As for the anti-semites who harangue the Jews on this site and place blame on them for the ills of the world....they inadvertantly make the case as to why Israel should exist. 60 years after the Holocaust and the destruction of 6 million Jews by those who too scapegoated the Jews, every Jew can feel a little safer knowing that he will no longer be at the mercy of an anti-semite because Israel has made self-determination a reality. From Russia, Ethiopia, and now France, they continue to flee persecution to a land that will offer them refuge....Israel! Am Yisroel Chai!

FLM
The evidence that you cite as proof of Arab displacement by Israelis actually blames the British for the displacement. "An estimated 100-150,000 Palestinians were displaced during British rule in Palestine due to eviction of tenant farmers from land sold to Zionist colonization associations, punitive house demolitions by British mandate authorities, expulsion of Palestinians opposed to British rule and denationalization under the 1925 Palestine Citizenship Order (Rempel, 2003)."

YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!

Right of return
And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

"Displaced" Palestinians
I read the first of FLM's links; it's masterful in the way it makes a bunch of things that were actually the Palestinians' own fault, sound as though they were driven off en masse, without ever actually telling a lie. For example, it says "It is estimated that a quarter of the refugees were expelled by Israeli forces; more than half fled under military assault. Approximately one-fifth fled out of fear and psychological warfare..." Note that it doesn't say whose military assault caused half the Palestinians to flee (it was the Arab assault, in fact), but since that phrase comes immediately after a comment about Israeli forces, the uninformed reader is led to assume they were driven out by Israelis.

Here's a vignette to help the uninformed assess whose claims to believe. When the British took over Palestine from the Turks in the wake of WWII, they heard numerous complaints about the Zionists stealing land from the local farmers. There were so many complaints that the British created a commission, called the Peal Commission, to investigate all the claims. Of all the claims the Peal Commission reviewed, 80% turned out to be instances where the local farmers SOLD their land to the Zionists, and wanted to get it back now that it was more productive.

You see, honest dealing is not part of the middle eastern culture. They actually admire a clever fraud.

Furthermore, the Palestinian refugees would have taken up domicile in the lands to which they fled... but they were NOT PERMITTED. That's right, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, all FORBADE Palestinian refugees from becoming citizens of their lands. That why the refugee camps are still there. They're a breeding ground for anti-Israeli activism, but in fact, they're the creation of the surrounding states, who could have ended the conflict simply by allowing their "brothers" to become citizens.

No, there's no legitimate claim of justice for the Palestinians.

Response to Andrews & Beowulfe

'Beowulfe' above claims that not a single Palestinian was forced to leave newly-created Israel, that they all moved out so that the surrounding Arab countries could exterminate the Jewish Invaders.

'Andrews' asks for evidence of Palestinian displacement, apparently not expecting to hear of any.

http://www.forcedmigration.org/guides/fmo043/fmo043-3.htm

and

http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/conf_0405dec_kallister.php

sound credible in their descriptions of Palestinian displacement during mandate rule. See also 'bryce's comments above.




Bullgod
Are you sure you're not Bulldog?

Until recent years even to mention a two-state solution to the question was considered anti-Israel, and therefore anti-Semitic. Remember the howl when Hillary spoke of a Palestinian state?!

Now the possibility actually exists. Perhaps there could be a simultaneous announcement: Israel recognizes a Palestinian state and Palestine recognizes Israel. The Palestinians have so few cards to play that many of them don't want to give up that one.

If Israel is ready for peace, why does it continuously expand its settlements on the West Bank? Doesn't that tell us something?

The reality is that both in Israel and among the Palestinians there are two major factions. The Netanyahu fanatics still plan for a Greater Israel. The Hamas fanatics still dream of regaining the 70% of Palestine that was taken from them. It was Israel, as you know, that first encouraged Hamas as a counter-balance to Arafat, who they succeeded in demonizing so completely.

My continuing suggestion: read both sides. Few Americans do. If you do, you will find that you can be sympathetic to both sides and want both to give enough so that each can live in peace and prosperity. I have visited Israel four times, love it dearly, but fear that it is digging its own grave. Time is not on its side.

Happy Passover.

Roy:
If the Palestinian leadership wanted peace and
security, they could have had them - and their
own state - years ago. Instead, that "leader-
ship" insisted on:
1)Refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist,
making negotiation impossible.
2)Continuing its campagn of murder and terror
against Israeli civilians.

If those conditions continue, there will not,
and should not be a Palestinian state. And it
won't be the fault of America (as you claim)
or Israel, but of the bloodthirsty Palestinian
leadership, which seems to want the conflict
to continue.

Compliments to Mr. Medved

Most often I'm moved to comment on Mr. Medved's columns because I disagree with them. Today I'm pleased that Michael recognizes the need for an independent Palestinian State, if only to provide a homeland for non-Jews displaced by the creation of Israel.

I agree with 'everyonesfacts' above, that Palestinians should be monetarily compensated in lieu of a right of return, which Israel could not handle.

Right of Return?
The Palestinians should have the 'right of return' but we all know that that won't be possible. Israelis would never accept it = and understandably. Within 50 years or less Arab Muslims and Christians could outnumber Jews.

But Arabs who were driven from their homes do have a right to these things:

(1) A viable state, without 'Jewish only' roads bisecting it in all directions and Palestine a collection of disconnected cantons.

(2) The Arab section of Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

(3) Compensation to Arabs who lost their homes - and often their lives. Jewish survivors of the holocaust and Israel have been paid billions by Germany. Instead of return, give the Palestinians a chance to live in freedom with some opportunity for prosperity.

The only hope for a peaceful and secure Israel is to have a peaceful and secure Palestine alongside it. This could have been achieved years ago but for US complicity in resisting a fair and just settlements. The Israeli lobby controls Congress - obviously. Eventually, unless Israel is ready to give up on the West Bank (it keeps expanding settlements) Israel will be destroyed. The American public will simply tire of underwritng it by billions each year and come to realize that Israel is not so much an ally as a detriment to American interests.

Many Jews feel like this, too. Read Tikkun, for example, or Tony Judt - and many others who are angered by Israeli policies that have led to the strengthening of Hamas and Hizbollah, as well as Iran and Syria.

Much more to say, but that's it for now.

Happy Easter or Passover - or both. Religion ought to help bridge our differences and not create bigotry. The fact that Israel only allows Jews to settle there seems very racist, but it must be forgiven in light of Jewish history.


bryce
From what I understand of the customs back in the Ottoman days was that land wasn't deeded.. there was no owner.

I challege either my own memory or your poor story.

I personally know Palestinians who sold
their land to future Israelis and immigrated to the US. However, the reason they sold the land they had owned for 5 generations in the century preceeding the creation of Israel was because their crops had been burned, their wells poisoned, likewise their livestock. The final straw was when a family member was killed during an attack by Zionists on a Christian church in Bethleham.

These families do not demand a right of return, but are aghast at the canard that that Palestians were not forced off their land.

wanda:
Good point; I can buy the idea of a freshly-
minted "Palestinian" ethnicity/nationality,
though it has no historical basis whatsoever.

Now, how to move forward? IMO, as long as the
Palestinian leadership (currently the terror
group Hamas) continues to insist on the des-
truction of the Jewish state, and continues to
murder Israelis, there will be no progress
toward a "homeland".

I wonder if the bloodthirsty terror-mongering
"leaders" of the Middle East, specifically
including the Palestinian leadership, really
want to see an independent Palestine - or if
they prefer a permanent grievance, as well as
permanent conflict, with Israel.

Virginia Patriot
You are so right - it is amazing that most Jewish-Americans are left-wing always vote democrat and fight tooth and nail to let every varmit in the universe into the United States and offer them every social service and educational advantage available, depriving our native-born the opportunities to education and social services. Mayor Bloomberg, who is Jewish allowed the Minorah and the star and crescent to be displayed in New York Schools, but no manger scene. He said the Christmas tree was a Christian symbol- of course it is not - it is purely secular/pagan. Many Jewish organizations are openly hostile to Christians - even though most Christians seem to be more concerned about Israel they are about America. I think many Jews love America, but their organizations and political leaders strongly support the United Nations Agenda 21, which is a blue print to destroy the sovereignty of the United States and combine us with Mexico and Canada in the North American Union. The Americans (including Jews) who love freedom, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights should learn all they can about Agenda 21 and join with Jon Paul to get us out of the United Nations. Can we count on you Mr. Medved??

an addendum for dissenter 57
One of my close friends is a philippino.
He served in the Israeli army and spoke fluent hebrew.
He remained in the reserves, even though he lives in the states, and has been called back - twice - and responded proudly to serve his country.
He was born there to an american philippino Army Captain who was there as part of the US forces stationed there.
His family still lives there, are not jewish, and are widely accepted as Israeli citizens.
Thought you might like to know...

andrews....
I'm sure to run into you in one of our meetings where we bathe in money and plot the destruction of the world.
I find it humorous that people really believe the nonsense spouted by obvious racists less interested in solving problems than finding a convenient scapegoat.
Odd how that happens to the jews all throughout history, no?
Thankfully, our people are not only peaceful in nature, but have good senses of humor!
Keep arguing with the stupids who seek to denegrate us.
I find it ironic that evangelical christianity embraces our people, yet most of the racist anti-semites of the world call themselves christians.
Of course, I'm leaving out the muslim anti-semites.
My response is always very simple - Jesus was born a jew and died a jew. His last supper was a passover seder.
So if you believe that Jesus was your savior, how can you hate jews?
Ironic, no?
It's like rain on your wedding day.

Mstone's Ethnicity
And how would you define the Isreali Ethnicity? Country of origin? Religion? Skin Color. I could be convinced that "Palestinian" is a recent Ethnicity, but not that it doesn't exist. The story of an ethnic group being created from a group of people moving from one place to another for economic opportunity is as old mankind. How many times have immigrants come and become a large minority or even majority in anothers land. they get on the wrong side of a war, suffer somehat and they build an ethnic identity. Ethnicity is often defined by those outside the group. I used to work with women from Peru, Puerto Rico and Mexico. To me they were all Hispanic or Latino. it took me some time to figure out they all had more in common with me than they had in common with each other. I would submit Palestinian as an ethnicity or even nationality that has been created by Isreal and her founders.

Deadcred
One of the most annoying quirks of our major media outlets, including Michael Medved, involves their consistently misleading characterization of the current debate about demands for "Comprehensive Immigration Reform".

If controlling who can enter Israel is important to the survival of Israel, why should the U.S. not have the same right?




These next 2 years are vital to the future of this country. For 2007 we must make certain that McCain/Kennedy or whatever it's called this year does not pass the House. It will pass the Senate. The President will sign it, followed by the Totalization Treaty with Mexico, which qualifies former illegals with just 6 qtrs(18 mo) even if worked illegally, the benefits that we had to work 40 qtrs(10 yrs) to qualify for.

In 2008 we must make the candidates address border security and immigration enforcement.
20-30 million citizens of other countries are in our country illegally, 55% from Mexico, most of the rest from other Central and South American countries. Let's not ignore the leftward voting trends of these countries. It is notable that they picked May Day, an old communist day of celebration for their marches.

Most polls show at least half of the American citizens of Hispanic descent want the borders and laws enforced. Republicans will not win by alienating their current voters to get 40% of a new small block that will grow very large, very fast if amnesty is granted. That will grow the Democrats vote larger and faster as the influx increases exponentially as the result of another amnesty. It will spell the end of the Republican Party. The people who used to vote Republican will stop voting or form a new party. Conservatives will lose political influence and we will slide inexorably towards socialism (it has already started).

Most of what you hear about this issue is political propaganda that tries to convince you to give up your country without a fight, including on Fox News. The big money players are all on board the cheap labor express, they care not that American citizens do not want another amnesty. We know the last one resulted in 10 times the number of illegal aliens and a general disregard of our laws. The next one will be equally successful.

We need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We need to restore respect for the law and the faith of the American people that their government is not selling them out. Amnesty for the illegal aliens is also amnesty for the corrupt companies who have been employing them. Money trumps everything, including love of country. Multi-nationals have no loyalty to country by definition, they see us as a market, not a nation. They see people as workers, documented or undocumented, no difference. If they can't send the work to where the labor is cheaper, then they want to bring the cheap labor here. Citizenship is meaningless.

If we love our Constitution and our representative Republic and we intend to keep it we must not surrender our sovereignty or abandon the rule of law. Profits must not supercede security. We should not create a new path to citizenship. We have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other country, illegal aliens have ignored it and bad choices do have consequences.


Palestinian "ethnicity"
It still puzzles me to see the "Palestinian" refugees referred to as a race or an ethnic group.

The Holy Land was sparsely populated with both Arabs and Jews until the Zionist movement took root in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That was when educated, industrious European Jews started returning to the Holy Land, bringing capital with them. Suddenly a land that was mostly empty desert started to boom and bloom. People (mostly Arabs) from neighboring "countries"--the areas that now constitute Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt--flocked to the Holy Land to find work.

They and their descendants chose to flee the new state of Israel after its creation in 1948. The countries from which they originally came--like Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt--won't take them back, either. That's why they've been forced to live on the edges of the new Jewish state, picking up its crumbs and getting welfare from Arab states and from the West.

"Palestinian" may be a convenient handle for these Muslim/Arab refugees, but it's not an accurate description of their ethnicity.

Look at a color-coded map
of the Middle East. Any color you want for "Arab/Palestinian/Persian/Muslim" nations and another color for Israel. I think that about says it all.

Jeffislouie
Gut yontiff.

Nice to meet a fellow member of the Zionist World Domination conspiracy.

I am amazed I have not yet been called a mossad shill yet today. Every time I point out blatant antisemitism, I get accused to trying to "stifle debate".

Funny, I thought "You belong to a race of evil men bent on destroying all that is good and holy" was not exactly a debate so much as a simple slur.

no two state solution
further evidence of no viable two state solution. That country is just too small and the people in it are more connected than they care to admit. I've live in a county that is half the size of the West Bank. Isreal has a large Arab minority. The occupied territories have a large Jewish minority. These people only move under the threat of overwhelming military force. There was a time before the wall that goods and services flowed back and forth with the people. In the end there is only one Holy land and Jews are going to have to figure out how to live with Arabs as Arabs will need to figure out how to live with Jews. All other solutions are either temporary on involve blood shed on a scale not seen since the crusades. The best Isreal can hope for with its wall is to become a Cyprus on the shore.

dissenter 57
writes:
"For the most part, Jewish-Americans are Jews first and Americans second, caring more about a country most have only visited than they do their home turf. They have no problem with having us let anyone who wants to come to this country in, but would deny the right to return to those whose families still have deeds to the land they owned in "Israel." And they want us goy boys to fight *their* wars for them?"

Amazing how easy it is for you to make the same claims Hitler made without having to actually prove it or substantiate it...
How very clever.
Demonize the jews because of their support for Israel.
As a jewish-american, I AM a jew first and an American second.
But is that unusual? Of course not.
Moron.
God, THEN country. Not the other way around.
Putz.
And your nonsensical claim that we care more about Israel than America is as silly and simple-minded as you seem to be.
There is NO reason to believe this total bull. The fact is, as an American citizen, I am primarily concerned with this nation- in spite of the fact that racist, anti-semites like you seem to be in the majority. But I am also mindful of Israel. I have an enormous family there and yes, I have visited. Should I not be mindful of them?
The Palestinians (so-called) that left Israel didn't do so by force, but by choice. When they found out it was going to be a safe haven homeland for the jewish people, they bailed - hoping for the destruction of the land and a speedy return. By the way, when they attempted to return to the nations of their actual origin (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc.), they were shot at. By their own people.
And the last time I checked, 'goy boys', as you so eloquently put it (sarcasm), haven't fought a single war on behalf of Israel. Every war Israel has been involved in has been fought by Israeli military personnel.
The reason the US is so in tune with Israel is because it is the only democracy in the region - and the only nation that doesn't force religion on their people.
Unlike what you seem to read (sponsored by the new third reich), people are free to worship as they like in Israel. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all have a place in Israel and none are turned away. Jews are always guaranteed citizenship, but that doesn't preclude any other faith from applying for and receiving citizenship.
And, for the record, I don't agree with the idea of open immigration in the US either. Illegal immigrants are criminals and should be treated as such.
Your assumptive reasoning is indicitive of your small minded thinking aimed at scapegoating the jewish people. What a shocker!
And you wonder why the jews need their own homeland!
In our country, the free nation with liberty, people like you are allowed to spew anger, hatred, and intolerance peppered by ignorance and racism. But that doesn't mean that I can't fight to prove that you are an idiot.

Lon
Can you provide evidence that Israelis displaced Palestinians? or do you just want to say it was "discredited" and we should take your word for it?

Forcing Israel to accept Saudi Peace - 4
A diplomatic minuet
The Economist (UK), March 29, 2007

The Americans and Saudis have quickened the tempo in peace talks . . .

Ms Rice's visit to the region was her seventh in eight months. This time and the last, SHE TRIED TO GET MR. OLMERT TO TALK TO MR. ABBAS about what in Palestinian peacemaking has come to be called a “political horizon”.

This is code for sketching in some kind of outline for the final-status issues (borders, the ownership of Jerusalem, the fate of the refugees and so on) that may not be negotiated until months or years hence. Mr Abbas wants it in order to show his people clear light at the end of the tunnel of negotiation and coax them away from Hamas.

Mr Olmert, on the other hand, cleaves to the somewhat dusty “road map”, according to which final-status DISCUSSIONS ARE SUPPOSED TO AWAIT A DEFINITIVE END TO (PALESTINIAN) TERRORISM and (Israeli) settlement expansion.

So Ms Rice proposed that America hold talks on the political horizon with each side separately. Whereupon Messrs Abbas and Olmert at last found something they could both agree on: they would rather talk directly to each other, EVEN IF THEY HAD NOTHING TO SAY.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_21272587.shtml

vic and reality dweller
There was a time that Israeli historians (and no one else) bought the fiction that there were no Palestinians displaced except for ones who went willingly (eagerly?) for the money. There was a time that Americans bought into the same fiction with the Indians. Now, even most Israeli historians don't push that nonsense. It is relagated to conservative boards in the US and some jewish moderates and liberals who believe Israel can do no wrong.

Reality dweller- at least you had the courage of your convictions to claim ethnic cleansing as a right of nations. It is a bizarre position to take, but that just underscores your courage in taking it.

Forcing Israel to accept Saudi Peace - 3
Arab League Summit Opens Door To Israel Relations; Russia Helps
by Ria Novosti
The Post Chronicle, April 2, 2007

The principle of the Middle East peace process -- LAND IN EXCHANGE FOR PEACE -- has remained unchanged for several decades. It is the atmosphere in the Middle East that has been changing. Remarkably, developments in the region are echoing a proposal that Russia made a few years ago.

In April 2005, Russian President Vladimir Putin proposed holding a Middle East conference like the one that took place in Madrid in 1991. It would review the status of the peace settlement and the possibility of RE-LAUNCHING NEGOTIATIONS with all parties to the conflict (the PALESTINIANS, LEBANON & SYRIA)...

Judging by the results of the Arab League summit, Arab countries are ready for a dialog and, therefore, a conference. It looks like the U.S. IS ALSO IN FAVOR of holding such a conference. America could put pressure on Israel to attend the event. At present, the Israelis are wary of the initiative, believing that they MAY BE PUSHED TOWARDS AGREEMENTS THEY ARE NOT READY FOR.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_21272587.shtml

buck
Spot on. Refugees make beautiful political pawns, held strongly in place by Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and a sadly complicit MSM.

Forcing Israel to accept Saudi Peace - 2
Secretary Rice At National Conference of Editorial Writers
US State Department, April 2, 2007

I spent some time in the Middle East, as you may well know. And I think that the events of the last several months, while they've made events -- have made relations between Israelis and Palestinians perhaps more complicated, also provide some opportunities. And we're trying to seize the opportunity on the Middle Eastern front to do several things: to MAKE CERTAIN THERE IS AN ACTIVE TRACK OF DISCUSSION BETWEEN PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS...

This all takes place though in the context of a broader effort that we're making for perhaps a political horizon not just between Palestinians and Israelis but between Israelis and Arabs, because if there is a sense in Israel that peace with the Palestinians will bring not just peace with the Palestinians but also with the Arabs, I think it will give AN IMPETUS, A PUSH, TO THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI TRACK.

And so I was very pleased that out of the Arab League summit in Riyadh there was a re-initiation of the effort on the Arab League proposal, once the Crown Prince the proposal and having been NAMED FOR THE THEN CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI ARABIA, but that they will try to use this, I think, as a means of active diplomacy to try and begin to talk about a horizon for Israel and its Arab neighbors.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0704/S00042.htm

Forcing Israel to accept Saudi Peace
This Year in Jerusalem?
by Michael Moran
Council on Foreign Relations, April 2, 2007

Pressure on Olmert to allow some kind of new dialogue began building after the Palestinian factions, Hamas and Fatah, agreed last month to a unity government. After vowing to continue a diplomatic quarantine on the new government due to the terrorist operations of Hamas’ military wing, OLMERT COMPROMISED UNDER PRESSURE FROM U.S SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEZZA RICE last week. He agreed to maintain ties (LAT) with Fatah leader and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

Last week’s updated endorsement by the Arab League of a 2002 SAUDI-LED REGIONAL PEACE PLAN increased the pressure (Jerusalem Post). Saudi Arabia recently picked up the mantle of Sunni Arab leadership to try to counter the spread of Iranian Shia influence throughout the region...

Reports cite Israeli intelligence as saying that Syria and Hezbollah plan to strike the Golan Heights (DebkaFile) later this year. Syrian and Palestinian officials quickly denounced the offer of talks as a ruse (Ynet). In the first official response to Olmert's statement from an Arab government, a SAUDI OFFICIAL SAID THAT ISRAEL MUST WITHDRAW FROM ARAB LANDS (BBC) before any multilateral negotiations can begin.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/12973/this_year_in_jerusalem.html?
breadcrumb=%2Fpublication%2Fpublication_list%3Ftype%3Ddaily_analysis

Ann Seldon, bubba
I am old enough to remember the founding of the state of Israel as well as the war that quickly ensued. The reason for the Palestinians being refugees is of their own doing, not of the jews.
The surrounding arab states broadcast over radio to the non-jews (who were citizens of Israel) to leave Israel so as not to be confused with jews and killed by the arab armies that were going to kill all the jews in Israel. They were promised they could return and claim not only their own former land holdings but those of all the dead jews after the bloodbath. And they, for the most part, left.
But...surprise, surprise, surprise, Sgt. Carter...shazam! The arabs were defeated by the jews who decided that those who had fled the country should stay out of the country.

Now.

If there is a refugee problem, why has not the arab countries absorbed these poor, pitiful folks into their own societies? After all, it was they who told them to flee Israel in the first place.

Ann Seldon, bubba
I am old enough to remember the founding of the state of Israel as well as the war that quickly ensued. The reason for the Palestinians being refugees is of their own doing, not of the jews.
The surrounding arab states broadcast over radio to the non-jews (who were citizens of Israel) to leave Israel so as not to be confused with jews and killed by the arab armies that were going to kill all the jews in Israel. They were promised they could return and claim not only their own former land holdings but those of all the dead jews after the bloodbath. And they, for the most part, left.
But...surprise, surprise, surprise, Sgt. Carter...shazam! The arabs were defeated by the jews who decided that those who had fled the country should stay out of the country.

Now.

If there is a refugee problem, why has not the arab countries absorbed these poor, pitiful folks into their own societies? After all, it was they who told them to flee Israel in the first place.

ISRAEL
The hypocrisy of the Arab world is mindboggling. They discriminate against nonMuslims, but yet claims Israel is racist. If an Arab sells land to a Jew, he or she is executed, two are facing trial at this moment. Take a Bible and enter Saudi Arabia, and it will be shredded.

The Arab world is one of the most hypocritical, racist, religiosist, intolerant, sexist parts of the world.

Any liberal foolish enough to sympathize with many of these individuals, will find their head will be the first on the block under Sharia Law.

Yes, the radicals want Sharia Law in the West, and their numbers are in the millions.

A freight train is heading toward the West and we must wake-up and derail it before it damages our secular society.

Chris, you are mistaken
It has been long-known that the "Palestinian Authority" has been fudging figures of "Palestinian" population by:
(1) including Israeli Arabs
(2) counting as resident those who emigrated to UK, US, Canada, etc AND those of "Palestinian" descent born in these.
(3) DOUBLE-COUNTING the above two categories

And religious (conservative or orthodox) Jews who live in Israel DON't have small families. In fact, their rates of growth are like those of non-Muslim Indians between 1947 and 1981 (during which period Muslim percentage of India increased from 9 to 13--over 34 years, with a fair portion of that due to illegal immigration from Bangladesh)

Liberals ignore the history
We can thank Mr. Medved for reviewing this topic again, but it will make no difference to the Socialists on the American Left. They will ignore--and suppress--any historical facts which do not fit their Marxist worldview (America bad, capitalism bad, Jews bad).

Oceania is at war with Eastasia. It has always been at war with Eastasia. Oceania is at peace with Eurasia. It has always been at peace with Eurasia.

Sure, that was a novel, but Orwell had a keen insight into the totalitarian mind. That mind operates, in small scale, inside the head of each and every Socialist in the West.

The only thing that will change their minds is a new Civil War.

Hilary delenda est.

On the nail, Bill
The whole concept of "Palestinian" was created by Hajamin Husseini whom the British (due to TL Lawrence's recommendation) appointed as Mufti of Jerusalem. Husseini's ancestors hailed from Damascus, and were the ones who pushed the "Damascus Blood Libel" case to Ottoman Courts (BTW, the Ottoman Sultans had more sense--the Husseinis LOST!). It is noticeable that they are not even thankful for not being ANNIHILATED in the aftermath of WW2: Husseini had singed a blood-pact with Hitler in 1936, and had also gone to Bosnia and Kosovo to recruit European Muslims for SS. I doubt that many Europeans (other than alleged and real collaborators with Nazis) would have even shed CROCODILE-tears against their annihilation had they known of this pact.

The only "right of return" they should have is that of having their souls returned to hell!

Medved Faces The Music
Israeli Jews are not having children at a replacement rate, much less at the rate of the Palestinians. Next we will see Medved and other apologists for Likud arguing for the expelling of the Palestinians living with Israel.

The US has no security treaty with Israel. Until we do - preceded by a full, national discussion with no forbidden questions (and no "antisemite" smears), with a vote in the Senate of two thirds present and voting, we should leave the folks in the Middle East to themselves. We've got a southern border, and our own sovereignty, to protect. Both are deteriorating because we're over there protecting Israel's sovereignty and Iraq's borders.

Where's that in the Constitution?

The real problem
For the most part, the Arabs want the Jews/Israelis out and/or dead. This is their starting point. Everything else is details.

Land for peace has proven to be a lie that Arabs have no problem repeating and some Jews, some Americans, most Europeans and many left leaning people keep eating up.

Without a reformation inside the Arab world (and more broadly, within Islam), one of the few proven truths about these primitives is this - they understand the use of force and respect it.

I say they're primitives because they live like it's the 7th century.

To Lon
If you will go back and read the previous posts, this did not happen at all. You have cteated a strawman to argue with.

The Invention of Palestians.
I understand tnat it has become an accepted fact, but why is there never an explination of who the Quote Palestian People Are Unquote. An invention of a "People" that has been used as a tool by those who want to destroy Israel, and that I'm sorry to say includes ex-president carter. Even their late grate leader Arafat was not of these people.

Lon
Not to speak for Vic, but in a word.....yes.

This is what sovereign nations (are supposed to) do.

Besides, the scenario you've painted above never actually happened. The land in question (all of Israel) was PURCHASED from the Arabs by Jews. So there was never ANY theft at all.

I know that you FEEL that this shouldn't have to be true, but it is. And truth is funny that way, it will ALWAYS be true.

The myth of "displaced Palestinians".
In 1948, not even ONE "Palestinian" was, in any way, shape, or form, displaced by the Israeli Jews. This is a fact.

The only ones that were displaced were displaced by THEMSELVES when their Islamo-fascist brothers invaded Israel (the invaders from Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and other Islamo-fascists told them they couldn't tell the difference between a "Palestinian" and a Jew, so if they didn't want to get killed, they should leave), or these so-called "Palestinians" were displased NOT from Israel, but surrounding Islamo-fascist nations because even in those terrorist nations, these "Palestinians" were TOO violent for them.

These terrorist don't get any "right to return". They fled because they wanted to watch from a distance as the terrorists kill the Jew or never were in Israel to begin with. Most of them would be "returning" to Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, or Iran, NOT Israel.

Vic
So what you are saying is that it would be a simple matter of controlling its borders of the US decided we don't like Vic, chased you out of the country and didn't let you or your relatives back in?

To Lon
Anyone who stipulates that a country does not have the right to control who enters it's borders is imbecilic.

missing the point
The supposed distortions in the media concern the idea that 1) Palestinians would return to their own homes and 2) this is ethnically based.

The first is certainly inaccurate in the sense that what they are asking for is the right to return to the towns that they are expelled, it is doubtful that many of the actual homes remain. But that the demand is to return to the towns from which they were expelled is accurate. To not report that because Medved disagrees with the demand would, of course, be goofy. That is to say, Medved is criticizing a detail but not the real issue.

The second turns out to be a distinction without a difference. Israel allows some non-jews to enter the country, but the reason that they will not let a large number of Palestinians return (according to Olmert they will allow none, but others have argued for a small number) is precisely because Israel can only remain a jewish state if it is predominantly settled by jews. The idea that a country can chase away an unfavored minority and then disallow them to return because every country gets to control its immigration is imbecilic.

That said, the right of return is a stupid demand which clearly will not be part of any final peace. Both sides no this, just as the know that the idea that Israel can maintain discontiguous settlements in the West Bank after peace is nonsense. These are almost as bad as the idea that one could have a peace policy in which Israel controls who enters and leaves Palestine from other countries. Amyone who puts forward these ideas thinking they are consistent with peace is an idiot.

But both sides put forward these ideas as bargaining chips. The Arabs demand a full right of return, but let it be known through channels that that is negotiable. The Israelis maintain that they will keep settlements large enough to make the West Bank ungovernable. I assume that they similarly know that they are spouting nonsense with which to trade against the Palestinian (or in the case of this proposal, Arab) nonsense.

Of course it would be better if negotiations did not involve such games. We can wish that one side would say "here is what peace will actually look like" and put forward a serious proposal. Neither side has ever actually done that. The Barak plan came close on some elements and not others. The Saudi plan comes pretty close, but the right of return disqualifies it as a final peace. Actual plans were worked out in Geneva, but not by people with the political standing to make it real.

The real question is, given that there is so little variability in what peace could look like, and both sides know it, who is acting in ways that could actually lead to peace. No one is actually proposing peace. But some people deserve credit for making serious moves towards it. The Saudi plan deserves credit in this regard. Although it will never be taken seriously as the final peace.


"Palestinians" in Israel
When the modern Israeli state was founded, the non-Jewish people (then called Arabs, in general, or by their actual nationality--Egyptian, Saudi, etc.) were asked by the new government to stay in Israel with full citizenship rights. Many fled (with prompting by the Arab nations). Most who remained fought against the new state.

The Arab nations should try practicing the "right of return." Most of the "Palestinian refugees" can easily trace their roots (not very deep) to the surrounding Arab countries. If they attempt to return to these lands, they are kept in refugee camps.

Right of return
Isn`t this the same thing as the Mexicans "returning" to their birthright? If Israel isn`t careful, they will take over. I wish the American government would take a posative stand and watch our borders more closely. Remember the adage; "Once the camel gets his nose under the tent, the rest will follow."

test
test

My Mistake
I constantly confuse the Balfour Declaration and The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. The latter established the State of Israel, the former embodied the British support for creating the same and helped formalize the division of former lands of the Ottomasn Empire.

My mistake.

Redstatesredkoolaid
No. Palestinians were not dispossessed by Israel, they fled when the Arab League threatened to destroy Israel. Many stayed and their descendants are Israeli citizens with full rights. There is even a Palestinian party in the Kenesset.

So, no, the Israelis dispossessed no one. The Pals fled to support the aggression of the Arab League.

And Israel was not "Kelo". That is absurd. No property rights were violated. The Balfour Declaration only created a state, it did not take anyone's property, so can in no way be compared to Kelo. Or do you think the Declaration of Independence was "kelo" as well?

Double standard
Interesting that the PA is devoted to making their state judenrein, but they want the right to settle in Israel. Funny also how Palestinians are often killed ("unofficially" of course) for selling land to Jews.

So, let me get the Left's position: It is OK for the Palestinians to adopt an anti-Jewish immigration policy and to attempt to run all Jews (and Christians) out of the PA, but the Israelis have no right to keep out even actively hostile "Palestinians", even those of very dubious lineage (such as the Egyptian-turned-Palestinian Yasr Arafat)? Is that what the Left views as "equitable"?

Ok, now all the Zionist World Domination conspiracy theorists can jump in and blame me for 9/11 or call me a shill for mossad, or whatever the topic of the day is among the tinfoil hat crowd.

redstate
Might I suggest getting re-informed about the correct historical time line your question addresses. It is apparent from your question that you are not very knowledgable concerning the genesis of the conflict.

Perhaps really reading the column this time might be a good place to start.

Israel's right to exist
A number of the threads above make reference to the state of Israel's land being stolen, or of the Palestinians being removed from their land.

Anyone who makes these claims is uninformed and, bluntly put, speaking out of his/her arse.

The land now known as Israel was the property of the British government at the end of WWII. When the Jewish state was created by (gasp) the U.N., the Jews who decided to move there PURCHASED the land they would live on from the Arabs who lived in this British territory.

Moreover these Jews paid far more than the land could possibly be worth, as it was at the time a rocky, barren dessert.

Through support from Western nations, mainly the USA, this small country has not only survived, but flourished. The one-time dessert has become a prosperous nation. It is a Democratic state, and a Secular one. It is the only ally that the West has in the Middle East, and I daresay America's most fervent and consistant ally.

Israel has survived despite being attacked CONTINOUSLY both from her neighbors, and from Islamics within its borders.

The debate on when a country's existence should be accepted is ridiculous. Virtually EVERY nation on the face of the earth was at one time the property of another people. Through war, conquest and colinization, all land has changed hands at one time or another. Do NOT dismiss this point, I beseech you, it is relevant and salient.

So can we please stop this nonsense about the 'stolen' land of Israel?

- RD

Right of return
Is a right, but a positive one not a
negative one.

And it will have to be settled if this
mess is ever to be settled. $ or a house
in a new Palestinian state should do.
In return the Israelis should get signatures
from ALL major Palestinian parties for a
right to exist.
Now all these groups need is $ or building
supplies. Maybe our foreign aid to Israel
would be best spent on this after the sides
agree???

Like most leftist
individuals AnneSelden does not "get it" and probably never will. The Pet Rock craze of the 60s was a unique marketing tool for a joke book. The point was the book, the rock was nothing. Allowing all the "jew hating" Palestinians unhampered access to Israel would cause Israel to cease to exist, just like allowing Mexicans unhampered access to the US would cause us to cease to exist.

Of course to AnneSeldon and her ilk, this is a desired outcome. A one-world government, of the socialists, for the socialists, and by the socialists. The rest of us are welcome to either stand in our bread lines or die.

Weren't thousands of Palestinians
Displaced from their own homes that had been in there families for generations and moved to camps so that the Israeli state could be established back in 1948?

So why should they not be able to go back to their true home land? They have more claim to that land (something about posession being 9/10 the law) than a bunch of Eastern European Jews that were transplanted there in repayment for the sins of that a--hole Hitler.




AnneSelden
Millions? This is typical leftist exaggeration. Mr. Medved gives a figure of 700,000. If you've got a different figure, let's hear it, with documentation.

As for being destitute, the one thing I took away from the book "Thick Face, Black Heart" is what the author said about her refugee parents, who were forced to flee from mainland China when the commies took over. When she was growing up in Taiwan, her parents constantly complained about having to leave their wonderful home back in Beijing. Meanwhile, all around them, other refugees were making fortunes in their new country.

The Jews are making the desert bloom in Israel. Once the Palestinians take over, it will go back to being a worthless desert.

Jews' right of return
Lots of Jews felt forced to abandon homes in Cairo and other parts of the Arab world and flee to Israel, once Israel had been established. So why aren't these Jews demanding a right of return? Because the conditions back home would be rather horrible.

The Palestinian right of return should be made just as horrible: they should be considered second-class citizens with no voting rights, etc.

Black and White Brian
Why is it then that Israel is so heavily involved in spying on the U.S.?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm


Medved is for open U.S. Borders
So why not open borders for Israel? Not just "Right of Return", but ANY Arab who can walk across the border should be guaranteed a "path to citizenship".

Bubba
More accurately, these former land owners abandoned their country in it's time of need and in hope that that country would soon be destroyed and more land given to them. Should the grandson of such a traitor be allowed to reclaim that land?

I say that such a traitor has revoked his claim to the land

Just Learning
Michael,

Should the grandson of a land owner in 1948, removed by the formulation of the state and sent into refugee sataus, be eligible to reassume ownership of the land of his grandfather, if he has the deed and the identity papers?

How many pieces of property might fit this description?

my 2 cents
The latest arab proposal - ssdd

and so it goes on

Land for Peace
Didn't work for Hitler.. won't work for Hitler's protégés.

AnneSelden "writes" ....
Like an illiterate, antisemite, bigot who would, were she to apply her "logic" to a sexual assault, blame a brutally violated woman that she was raped.

And like one who has neither awareness nor appreciation of the fact that Israel, Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization's furthest front line fort in our defense against the barbarians at our walls, has never aggressed against a single state, nor rendered a single man homeless, stateless or destitute but has, with unbelievable restraint, been defending itself against islamafascism's psychopathologically hesperophobic mass-murdering attacks for, thus far, more than sixty years.

Nor awareness nor appreciation that as goes the Nation of Israel, the mid-East's only democratic nation, so goes our Civilization.


THE Palestinian "Right of Return"
well right of return is headlined!

"The issue, as always, is Arab refusal to accept Israel's existence and sovereignty. "

yup- true.... but oh well- sometimes a lousy product is just a lousy product no matter what the hype. Lots of people fell for the pet rock phase as I recall, but not everyone. So the promoters made lots of money on pet rocks, but that fad has passed and really it was a silly idea all along. However unlike the fad of Israel, pet rocks never killed anyone, nor did they make millions homeless- stateless- destitute.

"Right of Return"
There might be an easy way around this. Just insist on a public conversion to Judaism (apprpriately videotaped) for any so called Palestinian who wishes to return. While it would require such "returnees" to give up Islam, it would obviate the charge of racism.
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