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Wednesday, January 10, 2007
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Should the Middle Class Fight Tax Hikes on the Rich?
by Michael Medved
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It took Nancy Pelosi less than a week as Speaker of the House to begin talking seriously about tax hikes. On “Face the Nation” on CBS this weekend she raised the possibility of increasing the tax burden (by “repealing tax cuts”) for “those making over a certain amount of money, $500,000 a year.” She simultaneously promised tax cuts “for middle class families.”

The political calculation in this pitch is diabolically clever, of course. Nearly all Americans consider themselves “middle class,” no matter how much or how little they make, so her support for reduced taxes for “middle class families” sounds wonderful. Meanwhile, less than 2% of tax returns show income in excess of $500,000 a year so the Speaker is, in effect, inviting 98% of the public to improve their status at the expense of a tiny minority that’s already widely resented because of its “excessive” success.

If you’re nowhere near that $500,000 level where the Democrats say they’ll start punishing you, why should you care if Pelosi & Pals jack up the tax rates on the fortunate few who can afford to fund the rest of us?

Actually, this question’s just as pertinent for me as it for most of the people reading this column since my family (alas) falls below that half-million a year threshold. Yes, I’m lavishly blessed with my job and I’m delighted to earn a great income that provides us with all sorts of privileges, but we’ve never approached the multi-million dollar income that many listeners (thanks to well-publicized deals for the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Howard Stern) associate with successful radio hosts.

In any event, the fact that I might manage to escape unscathed from Pelosi’s proposed tax increases doesn’t make me any less indignant at the idea that she wants to squeeze more from the most productive wealth-creators in our society.

Herewith, three reasons that even those who’ll never earn a half-million a year should oppose these tax hikes, followed by three powerful lessons from the current political situation.

First, the reasons that Americans at every income level should fight against a tax increase on any income level:

1) Tax hikes hurt the economy. Pelosi proposes to take money out of the hands of people whose investment and entrepreneurship create jobs, and to place it into the hands of government, which creates only job-stifling bureaucracies. The idea that federal officials will do a better job spending money than the people who earned it is not only offensive, but profoundly illogical. If Oprah Winfrey or Steve Jobs or Bill Gates makes a few extra million, that money won’t go into a mattress. It will either be used to start new companies or invested somewhere (driving the economy and producing new jobs), or spent on even more lavish mansions and yachts (providing new, well-paid high end jobs in design, maintenance and construction) or go to charities designated or designed by some of the most successful people in our society. The government never makes money; it only takes money, and then spends it. The evidence that Washington, D.C. bureaucrats can spend the bucks more effectively and productively than private money-makers is non-existent—which is why major tax-rate cuts in the Coolidge, Kennedy, Reagan and George W. Bush administrations have all produced economic booms. The idea that higher rates for the super-rich would mean lower rates for the rest of us is naïve, to say the least. Even if governmental officials meant to send all the new money from tax hikes “back to the people” in the form of middle class tax cuts, they’d still need to pass those funds through the D.C. meat grinder—and big chunks of all such pass-throughs inevitably get stuck on the blades of the bureaucracy. No government program sends 100% of the funds assigned to it to the intended beneficiaries. The only guarantee when dollars make their way to Washington is that some of them—sometimes most of them – will end up staying there to pay the costs of administration and overhead. .

2) Higher rates are ineffective in producing higher revenues, and encourage both laziness and sleazy strategies of tax avoidance. Obviously, the higher the tax rates, the more the incentive to dodge taxes. In Russia, where Putin experimented with a flat rate of just 13%, the cynical tax collectors found themselves amazed by the tidal wave of new revenues from productive people who had previously avoided paying their taxes. Contrary to most liberal predictions, the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 led to a vast increase in revenues, which has already resulted in cutting the deficit in half. Raising tax rates on the rich, on the other hand, gives an incentive to hide money and to practice tax avoidance to precisely that segment of the population that’s best able to escape their responsibilities – thanks to expert (and expensive) advice and financial flexibility. Higher rates also encourage people to invest their time in devising elaborate schemes to avoid taxes, rather than working hard to earn more income, produce more jobs, and create more wealth.

3) High tax rates are wrong and unfair – and only lead to the growth of government. When pollsters ask the public about the highest tax rate that seems fair, a majority of Americans suggest 20% -- or less. In other words, even many people who will never pay the highest rates recognize and acknowledge the essential injustice of confiscating more than a third of what individuals earn. At the moment, the top rate claims 35% -- down slightly from the top rate under Clinton (39.6%) but still up substantially from the low rate under Reagan (28%). By and large, we want our most talented and productive fellow citizens to work as hard as possible, because we understand that their efforts benefit the rest of us. Whether their excellence involves building companies, or directing movies, or throwing an unhittable slider, we understand that part of the reason they do what they do is to earn financial recognition and reward. We also understand that the best way to measure the size of government is to measure how much of private productivity that government consumes. If your boss takes back 90% of what you earn, then it’s not outrageous to say that you’re a slave and he’s your master. When the federal government used to impose a top tax rate of 90% that made the highest earners theoretical slaves to government – no wonder that they rebelled with all sorts of loopholes and tax dodges to escape that slavery. If the government takes 35% of your productive efforts, you’re still a slave for one third of the time or one third of the year—working hard to benefit others, not yourself. The great majority of Americans understand that a federal bureaucracy that can claim one-third of our efforts and one-third of our time (before we even start worrying about state and local obligations) has grown too large, too intrusive, too powerful to co-existence with free people and the ideals of liberty.

These arguments – the very core of conservative thinking – continue to make sense even to tens of millions of those who never expect to make their way into Pelosi’s target category of the guilty rich.

And what can we learn from the current political mess in Washington? Three quick lessons:

1- There really is a big difference between Republicans and Democrats. Forget all the whining (going back to notorious Democratic demagogue George Wallace) about “not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties”, about “Republi-crats” and “Dem-icans” counting as interchangeable: within one week of Democratic takeover, the leadership of both House and Senate is talking about tax increases. In the twelve prior years of Republican rule no major leader of either GOP-controlled house of Congress talked about jacking up tax rates. If that doesn’t demonstrate the unbridgeable chasm between the two parties, nothing will.

2- Despite Democratic claims to the contrary, Republicans are unmistakably motivated by concern for the public good rather than efforts to protect their own bank accounts. Only a tiny percentage of GOP leaders, activists, volunteers, or talk show hosts would suffer by a tax increase limited to incomes above $500,000—yet Republican opposition to these increases is nearly unanimous.

Why? Because we care about our ideals and our vision for the nation (a vision of minimal government and maximal freedom) more than we care about our own bottom lines.

3- The biggest issue with the tax system should be tax simplification, not increasing or even decreasing rates. Tax debates always sound confusing to the American people because they are—the IRS Code, with its multitude of loopholes, mountainous volumes of regulations, Alternative Minimum Taxes, differential rates for capital gains and ordinary income, FICA, payroll deductions, earned income tax credits, and so forth, is vastly more complex than it needs to be. Each one of the regulations and special programs and specific obligations represents some governmental attempt to take tell people what to do and how to live, to expand the power of bureaucrats into every intimate corner of our homes and places of work. Republicans will begin to rebuild our majorities by emphasizing RADICAL, corruption-reducing tax simplification (either a Fair Tax on Consumption or a Flat Tax on Income) rather than merely reduced rates.

Unfortunately, the needed efforts at heroic reform – like Hercules himself cleaning out the stinking, wretched, filth-encrusted Augean Stables – must wait until Pelosi’s instinctive passion to raise rates has run its course and the GOP regains its majority. Meanwhile, we can only hope that in terms of fighting once again on this particular battlefield we can re-unify our dispirited troops and regain the clear voice of Reaganism. It’s a new year and a new struggle, and it may yet produce new energy and fresh hope.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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Not an Economist

I'm not an Economist, and neither is Mr. Medved. I KNOW I'm not an economist, I'm not so sure about Michael.

All I know is, anytime I read somebody talking about Tax Cuts and Low Taxes and not saying anything about National Debt (what is it now, $9 trillion? I'm afraid to look), I feel like they're trying to sell me a see-saw with only one side on it.


Alas?
Michael states:

"since my family (alas) falls below that half-million a year threshold"

Was there really a nead for "alas?



F.L.M.
Agreed. I am not an economist either, but all does not seem right with America's finances. It's like claiming that more Americans are homeowners even though the reality is that more Americans are saddled with unrealistic mortgages. Does that make them "owners"?

The Republicans in power for the last decade DID raise taxes. They raised them on future generations. Debt represents a claim that will need to be paid. Sure, you can inflate the debt away, but how fair is that to the middle-class sheep who are stuck in 401(k)s and the like?

I would love something like a 10% or 20% flat tax, with maybe a tax on luxury consumption, but you aren't going to get it from the pigs at the trough, i.e. Democrats and Republicans. And, even if you could, if all it does is explode the debt further (i.e. without spending restraint), well then whoop-de-doo, you've just set up another mealy-mouthed meeting between our treasury secretary and our Chinese creditors.

Also, I don't know that the deficit has been cut in half, as Medved says. I'd have to check, but it sounds like he is referring to the deficit coming at half of the expected amount. There has been speculation in the financial press that the "expected" amount was inflated purposely to make the administration look good. I know people here will disagree, but oh well. Even though all I'm doing is saying what is said here all the time, i.e. that Republicans are mostly not conservatives.

Democrat tax increases
The fact is that their defintion of the 'rich' never means any of the 'rich' as in Pelosi, Reid, Soros or any of the limo liberals who've piled up fortunes suing it out of the productive element of this country. Instead, it turns out to be those who have a job and a mortgage - in other words the middle class with an income.

It's the same with their definition of 'working families' which turns out to be a collection of unrelated people living together collecting gov't transfer payments, none of whom work.

The purpose of their tax policies is the same with all their other policies which are meant, not only to fuel the massive gov't machine, which they bureaucratically control, but to kill off every vestige of private initiative possible.

It used to be a given that there was respect for the taxpayer in that his efforts produce a social good, not only for himself, but for the society at large. But through liberal/democrat's constant rhetorical class warfare harangue, the taxpayer is viewed with contempt by the worthless, non-paying, benefit collecting hordes.

This is the primary attitude and mechanism that will kill off our self governing freedoms and end this republic.

billinator
Was there a need for "nead" too?

GIGANTOR
FLM

Just because you reduce taxes, doesn't mean your revenues decrease. In fact, Mr. Medved makes the point that tax revenues are have increased with lower income tax rates.

The problem with national debt isn't tax revenues, but rather overspending..which perhaps has been Conservatives (including Michael Medved) biggest problem with President Bush and the former Republican majority. Perhaps you should reconsider your "gigantor" (liberal) social programs, and then talk about national debt.

Tax hikes "on the rich" are for suckers
Tax hikes on the rich always seem to end up falling on the middle class anyway. Remember the Alternative Mimimum Tax? That was sold to the American Public as a "tax hike on the rich". Meanwhile it is millions of middle class tax payers who are getting stuck with it.

The same thing will happen again. The safest bet for the middle class is to always oppose any new taxes since they will always come back to haunt you.


Agreements and disagreements
To JohnDTresnak : Here Here! I agree

To the liberal trolls posting here:

I wish I knew what it would take to convince you people that high taxation and socialism do not help anyone and make the intended beneficiaries worse off. All of the reputable economists and budget agencies are in agreement that revenues have increased above that which it was before the tax cuts. The inner city poor people had a larger increase in wages and standard of living before the so-called war on poverty than they have afterwards. Countries with heavily socialist economies have already failed economically or are on the way to failure through long-term decline. This includes all those Scandinavian countries that everyone touts.

All of the liberal talking points on wage gaps increasing, poor getting poorer, rich getting richer etc are either distortions or outright lies. There is a California economics professor who has done studies from CBO numbers and published data that backs this up:

http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com

The statement for homeowners not being homeowners because they owe on the mortgage is just specious crap. Once purchased, people have always been considered homeowners whether they paid cash or not.

Just what kind of evidence does it take to convince you people?????

Mr. Medved is wrong on one score though. The paragraph titled “There really is a big difference between Republicans and Democrats.” The largest tax hike in history was done during a Republican president with his agreement (Nixon SS tax hike to fix SS for baby boomers). Bush 41 had a tax hike. The current crop of Republicans has at least one (Lindsey Graham) that is discussing yet another SS tax hike for the third fix. I have been waiting for a “read my lips” statement from G. W. Bush. A better statement from Mr. Medved would probably be “not all Republicans believe in tax hikes whereas all Democrats do.”

GuyinCT is right. They always say “this tax will only be on the rich” but before its all over it comes down to the middle class. Hell, income tax itself came about touted as “this will only be on the rich”.

FLM
Yes, the national debt has increased greatly. This is not because the government isn't raising enough tax revenue, but rather because the federal government uses so much money in unConstitutional ways. If the limits that the Constitution places upon government spending were actually enforced, the current budget would be slashed by at least 30%. Both parties are to blame for this, but the majority of the unConstitutional spending is in the form of liberal entitlement programs (welfare, medicare, medicaid, medical care for non-drybacks, federal housing projects, etc) and Social Insecurity.

Medved is a slick salesman
Let me take these one by one:

1) Tax hikes hurt the economy. Pelosi proposes to take money out of the hands of people whose investment and entrepreneurship create jobs, and to place it into the hands of government, which creates only job-stifling bureaucracies.

First of all, a tax hike of a few percentage points on the very wealthy is not going to do anything to the economy. Does anyone seriously think that some guy making 3million a year is going to quite working because he has to pay an extra $20,000 or $30,000?

And besides, as Medved said, she is talking about a tax cut for the middle class. So it's a wash anyway.

Also, notice how Medved characterizes the wealthy as these wonderful people who create jobs for the rest of us. I guess he's forgetting about the CEO who stays up nights trying to figure out how to shed as many jobs as he can, or ship them overseas. And notice how he doesn't mention Wall St investment bankers who are basically a bunch of leeches sucking the blood out of investors. Also, when some millionaire buys some Microsoft stock from some other millionaire, this does nothing to create jobs. The only time an investor is really investing his money is in an IPO. Otherwise their just speculators.



2) Higher rates are ineffective in producing higher revenues, and encourage both laziness and sleazy strategies of tax avoidance. Obviously, the higher the tax rates, the more the incentive to dodge taxes.

If we were talking about raising rates by 10 or 20% he might have a point. But no one is going to significantly alter their tax strategy over a couple of percentage points. It wouldn't be worth the effort.


3) High tax rates are wrong and unfair – and only lead to the growth of government.

I see, so it's more fair to shift the tax burden onto the less succesful people in our economy who can least afford it. Yeah that's fair.

And under the current circumstances, more revenues will not grow the government, it will go toward reducing the deficit––a good thing for all of us.


And yes, there are huge differences between Republicans and Democrats. As the Republicans have proven: Republicans are about protecting the wealth of the wealthy and Democrats are about addressing the needs of ALL Americans.

Perfectly Legal by David Kay Johnston should be required reading for all Americans. It would arm us all against the kind of tricky rhetoric Medved and Rove and Grover Nordquist regularly display.

Phylo out.

Geez Phylo
Can't you get past your liberal blinders long enough to see economic FACTS?
Shift the tax burden onto the less successful? They don't pay income taxes right now!

If that tax was the only one
but it isn't. In Michigan, with a re-elected democrat govenor and a majority democrat legislature, talk is now about a tax on services.
Democrats can't get away from their characterization as the large government tax happy party because it is true.

clueless

After reading some of these posts it's glaringly apparent that the public school system does a woeful job teaching basic economics.

Perhaps that is by design.

Medved is dead on correct here.
This is why I voted GOP even when some of the GOP leaders may not have deserved my vote.
People decided that the lesser of two evils was not a good enough argument and now they have made a deal with the Devil(s).
Now they will see that the tax and tax and spend Democrats are no better than the pork spending Republicans.
Read my lips, GET READY FOR MORE TAXES!

Phlyo conveniently forgets
that under GW's tax cuts something like SIX MILLION FAMILIES were REMOVED from the Federal tax rolls (families of 4 making $35,000 or less) and families of 4 making up to $50,000 saw their Federal tax burden HALVED.

And the "class warfare" Democrats are eager to wipe out those tax cuts.

Republicans understand property rights, Democrats hate them...they are the party of envy.

GuyinCT
You are right!

The middle class ends up paying more taxes because they have expenses related to mortgages, car payments, and the expenses of working (such as reimbursed travel expenses, or taking clients out to lunch).

They can't take hunks of their salaries and put them in some kind of tax shelter. Therefore at tax time, they are going to pay a lot more than Percy Trustifarian IV, even if the income is the same.

Proportion vs. absolute amount
Imagine that one box contains 20,000 dollars, while another contains only 1,000 dollars. I point to each box, telling you, "Take your pick: you can have ten percent of what's in the first box, or fifty percent of what's in the second box." Despite 50% being a larger _proportion_ than 10%, you would get more money by choosing the first box, because the _absolute_ amount in that one is SO much greater.

That's how it is with the results of tax relief. When industry is not overburdened with taxes, it will DO MORE PRODUCING than it otherwise would. That will mean a larger absolute amount of wealth being generated for tax revenues to come FROM. That is why tax cuts historically HAVE generated _increased_ revenue to the government; this is fact, not opinion.


To Phylo
As I said earlier; just what kind of evidence does it take to convince you people? As to David Kay Johnson, this individual’s main job is being a New York Times reporter. That tells me that if I read his book it would be nothing more than the standard liberal screed backed up with no facts. I have read a number of books by other economists who do not agree with anything you said. Why don’t you read a few books by Thomas Sowell?

Sorry, Philo -- wrong on all counts
I AM an economist, at least by training, and none of your arguments holds any water.

1) No one ever claimed that a tax hike will end ALL investment, only investment at the margins. This decrease in marginal investment does indeed lead to a slowed economy, and increases the cost of money for all businesses. Liberals live in a fantasy world in which there is no cause and effect; they believe that the government can seize an ever-growing portion of the wealth of society's most productive members, but that they will continue to invest and produce because they "owe it" to their fellow man. Unfortunately, empirical data always rain on this fantasy. Tax increases have always lead to recession, and tax cuts have always lead to increased government revenue. The Laffer Curve has been validated beyond any reasonable doubt.

Despite your cartoonish characitures of the wealthy, they do indeed start and/or fund the businesses that drive the economy; if not, where do you suppose the money comes from? Magically created by the government? Most CEOs stay up nights trying to figure out how to beat their competition and better serve their customers, and most I-bankers work 100 hour weeks to facilitate the flow of capital that is the life blood of our economy. And many tax returns that show up in the statistics as "the wealthy" are actually LLCs or C-corps; jacking their tax rates causes them to lay off employees.

Also, note that you said Pelosi is "talking about" middle class tax cuts. Democrats always talk about middle class tax cuts, but never actually do it (remember Bill Clinton?). When the time comes, we learn that everyone who pays taxes is considered wealthy. The cop and nurse whose family income is $70k, and to whom the Democrats' Robin Hood rhetoric sounds great, are shocked to learn that they are the ones squarely in the sites of the Marxist wealth redistribution machine.

2) You are talking theory, but again, the facts fail to support your theory. Take a look at your beloved "peoples' states" of old Europe--stagnant economies, 10%+ unemployment, and the wealthy fleeing to Monaco.

3) Seizing less wealth from the productive hardly shifts the tax burden onto the less successful, as you claim. Perhaps you are unaware that the Bush tax cuts provided greater marginal rate cuts to the middle class, eliminated entire categories of low earners from the tax pool, and increased the overall share of the tax burden paid by the top 5%. And the deficit is already declining at a rapid rate due to increased revenues resulting from the tax cuts. Despite all the overheated bloviating, (always, of course, worried about "the children"), the current deficit is about 1% of GDP, low by historical standards and miniscule considering we are in a time of war.

What Democrats really care about is fullfilling their Marxist dreams of equality of income for all (except, of course, them), even if that means dragging everyone into the pit.

Stick it to the rich guys
I don't care whether building luxury items for the rich will help the economy. I want to stick it to the rich guys as much as they can be forced to bear. Then give the middle class a break. Middle class folks also know how to invest money and rarely get lethargic and overwhelmed with their self importance.

Dems are on your side - -
until they see that you can earn a higher wage or create jobs for others on your own. Then they get their feelings hurt because you did it without them, so they lash out by raising taxes. They say, "how dare you not be so pathetic that you need me to take care of your every need? How in the world can I feel virtuous about myself now?"

Will they at least go along with a compromise to reduce taxes on small business?

suomi78006
So long as the rich guys are Ted Kennedy and John Kerry or Barbara "Marx" Striesand - none of whom paid their "fair share" of taxes on the wealth they posess.

Why should we believe it?
As a disgruntled Republican who voted every time for Republicans:

Republicans had control of both Houses of Congress since 1994, and had the Presidency since 2000. There was ABSOLUTELY NO ACTION on simplifying the tax code.

No proposals.
No submitted legislation.

Nothing.

Why should I believe that this time it will be different?

Fletch - Please Explain
I don't get it. Please explain this (this is a serious question). You complain repeatedly that all posters you disagree with are setting forth unsupported rhetoric, allegations, rumors, whatever. Yet I daresay that everything you write is similarly unsupported. In other words, I don't see you whipping out the Bluebook and providing page cites, etc. What the heck do you want?

A case in point:

"The claim that Americans are saddled with "unrealistic" mortgages is nothing more than unsupported rhetoric."

Well, it's unsupported in that I didn't cite to anything. I *could* cite to, for example, this article: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-option11dec11,0,4921051,full.story, but you will likely object that it is just one data point or worse, that it is a liberal rag that cannot be trusted. Or this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/06/business/06mortgage.html?ex=1168578000&en=88f3927080a8b9ce&ei=5070, but that would probably be met with the same objections.

But, the point is, it is no more unsupported than anything you or anyone else says, so why don't you quit complaining. It's not like I said the earth is flat or something.

What I'd like to know is...does this mean that you think that there is no mortgage debt problem? I'd like to know your thoughts on that. It's not relevant to this thread obviously, but I'd like to know why you think what I said is just rhetoric undeserving of consideration.


Also, to those who complain about "liberal trolls", of which I am apparently one, even though I don't really espouse liberal positions, what do you want, a mutual admiration society where you just congratulate each other on your distate for Democrats and RINOs?

Saying it doesn't make it so
Economics is part philosophy and part empirical science. The philosophical part is musings about how things should work -- people should seek to maximize their expected utility and stuff like that. Much of it is (to say the least) unsupported by empirical evidence. The statement: "Tax hikes hurt the economy" and "Higher rates are ineffective in producing higher revenues" fall into this category.

Empirical economics -- econometrics -- looks at actual data to see what relationships exist in actual economies. There is ample empirical evidence that (1) excessive deficit spending and government debt is bad for economies, (2) the marginal return on taxes (increment in government revenue for an increment in taxes) is positive for US level taxes. There is some evidence from the Clinton years that it is larger than one (the economic benefits of a balanced budget outweigh other factors).

The Bush tax cuts on the wealthy were passed with "sunset" provisions. Why? To make their impact on future revenue seem lower. Of course, the Republican game plan (which Medved is paid to promote) all along was to cry "tax increase!" as this sunset approached.

Flat Tax NOW!!!
Wonderful article. There is only one thing that bugs me. We have been coaxed on by Republican after Republican touting the praises of the flat tax and using it to get themselves elected.

WHERE IS IT???? WHY DID WE GO THROUGH 6 YEARS OF REPUBLICAN DOMINANCE OF GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVEN A BILL BEING OFFERED?

I don't know why, but if 6 years of party dominance of the house, senate and presidency isn't enough time to put it into play, then what amount of time is?

Incomplete picture
Tax cuts can stimulate the economy and thus increase tax revenues. The reason for the improvement in the economy is more likely due to cheap money rather than lower taxes. Corporations have been able to borrow to fund daily operations and bank their revenues to generate profits without doing a thing. This makes the exec look good and the stock look good so the market responds positively. This profit is not production related so there is no corporate incentive to pass the profits down to the workers.

An additional effect of cheap money is to prop up consumption. The workers income increase has not kept pace with corporate profits but the extremely low interest rates have encouraged these workers to borrow to improve their standard of living. Bigger houses, more stuff, all borrowed. The equity in the home became a virtual ATM that could be taped for most anything and is tax deductible as well.

The third beneficiary is the investment sector. They can borrow and speculate on markets and make money. The best job for your kids to aspire to is trader on Wall Street. Manufacture nothing, help no one, and still make huge amounts of money. Nice work if you can get it I guess.

So to Michael, everything looks wonderful. The markets are at record highs, people live in bigger houses, people are buying the latest and greatest gadgets.

This is prosperity funded by debt. We have a negative savings rate with no change in sight if interest rates stay low. The government is borrowing and printing money at an incredible rate. The repo-rate is staggering.

Who owns the debt? You and I own a big chunk of the debt in our Social Security and Medicare accounts. Accounts which will not be able to keep paying the bills in a few years. The rest is held by individuals, banks and countries primarily Japan, Europe, and China.

Who has much of the surplus cash from all this buying? Some corporations and individuals, and China. Who produces all of the great gadgets we love? China. Who in this picture does not believe in profit, will buy from Iran, and who really could care less about the US? China. Who is increasingly gaining control over our economy? The COMMUNIST Chinese.

This does not feel right to me. It just looks to good to be true. It looks to go so far as to achieve prosperity at all costs. The cost we seem to be willing to pay includes the loss of our atonomy. This makes no sense to me. Guess I am just old fashioned.

Middle Class Tax Hikes
The trap the liberals always fall into is that they are concerned about tax rates, not tax revenues. We have seen repeatedly that reduction of RATES will cause a flood of increased revenues, and an increase of RATES causes a shrinkage of revenues. One of the clearest examples was the result of the tax cut initiated by John Kennedy. Another was the tax cut initiated by Ronald Reagan. Now, granted, there is a rate below which revenues would actually decline, but we have never approached that rate yet, and it is unlikely that we ever will. For once I would like to see a Congress that was truly concerned about controlling spending rather than trying to figure a sure-fire way for winning elections and keeping themselves on the government dole.

In recent years far too many of our middle class citizens have become closet socialists and have grown accustomed to government handouts. They don't realize that every time the government takes more of your money they are encroaching on your freedom.

Tax reform will go a long way toward solving

Founding Fathers were Right On
FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX, FAIRTAX!!!!!!!

FAIRTAX will give POWER by to the PEOPLE - perhaps that is why Politicians oppose it - You Think?

And did I mention FAIRTAX?


Middle Class Tax Hikes
Oops!!! I failed to complete the last sentence.

It should be as follows:

Tax reform will go a long way toward solving the problem, but tax reform is not something liberals are thrilled about. Our current system of favoring some over others suits very well the purposes of those endeavoring to make a career out of elective office.

Answer
"Why Should the Middle Class Fight Tax Hikes on the Rich?"

>>

Uh... How about Equal Protection Under the Law??

When one class (the "poor") get a FREE RIDE on income taxes... another class gets "pinched"... and the highest income earners get "soaked"... the Law is NOT Equally Applied.

The amusing part...
The amusing part is that each of the reasons Medved gives for why tax hikes are bad are the very same reasons Democrats would give as to why tax hikes are good.

Fletch and John Galt-Help Needed
I enjoyed both your postings. I minored in economics but in no way can articulate my thoughts as well as both of you. I ask your help on something i cannot readily prove that would support this article.

When taxes were raised in the 90s, I read that the "rich" had their average in taxes paid go DOWN from 29% to 28%. Can you confirm this? I know from personal experience in my profession that Medved is right. Raise taxes and people like me are ready with creative, legal strategies to reduce your current income.

I will fight tax hikes on the rich when
they start fighting outsourcing of American jobs.

When they show themselves to be patriotic, instead of trying to devalue the dollar, and undermine the saleries of Americans while voting each other pay raises, then I will care whether or not they are paying more than their fair share.

I think it is amusing that Libertarians pretend like CEOs are owners of major corporations.

Nowdays, most CEOs of major corporations are hired hands, just glorified employees, not founders, and often just sucking money out of the companies instead of guiding them to greatness.

The owners are, of course, the stock holders.

The COEs often seek to fool stock holders into thinking they are doing something good for the company. When they mess up, they can always cover their tracks by having massive lay-offs, which makes the stock go up, and the stockholders forget their complaint.

Of course there are a few exceptions, like Steve Jobs of Apple, who actually seems to be working art making really great products.

other taxws
Let's not forget the reduction in capital gains tax which added to fed revenue. If you want to sell some property and you will be paying less in taxes and keep more of the gain, you are more likely to sell when the taxes drop which is what happened when the cap gains dropped to 15%. Incentives to sell went up and folks got rid of property they may have kept longer.
and, it is SPENDING by government that is the big problem. A book that helps understand government waste is "Why Government Doesn't Work' by the last Harry Browne. Should be required reading.

should read
Other TAXES and the LATE Harry Browne

CMoore
Equal Protection Under The Law. What a novel idea. Instead, those wanting to confiscate from the productive use the word "fair." And a very perverted definition of fair.

Fletch and Mr Galt
Great posts. Phylo-thanks for the thought-provoking posts that stimulated these two economists to weigh in. FLETCH-Would I be correct in assuming that the transfer of Microsoft stock from one millionaire to another would also have this benefit, that the company itself would see an increase in value as the stock price increased? I am assuming that the stock is not sold at a loss and that the company keeps large amounts of stock in reserve. With a higher stock price and, therefore, greater reserves, the company will be able to borrow money (for expansion) at better rates. Is this wrong?

Opinions and Facts
You all are entitled to your opinions. But not your facts.
1. Lowering taxes raises revenues: In 1981, Reagan's first year in office, federal revenues were $599B. In 1983, after his lowering of tax rates (primarily benefitting the wealthy), revenues had shot up to $601B. He then RAISED taxes (primarily affecting the middle-class). This is something you all seem to choose to forget. But by 1988, his last year in office, revenues were up to $909B.
2. Raising taxes lowers revenues: In 1992, Bush's last year, revenues were $1,091B. Clinton raised taxes in 1993 (retroactively), and revenues increased to $1,154B. By 2000, they were up to $2,025B. By 2004, after Junior reduced taxes (again, primarily benefitting the extraordinarily wealth), revenues had declined to $1,880B.
Are these facts, as reported by OMB (check them out here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/pdf/hist.pdf
at all consistent with your arguments?
Here's an interesting exercise for you conservatives. Look up the top marginal rate from 1930 through 1980. What was the lowest it ever was during those 50 years?
And would you say that our economy in the 1950's was better or worse for the middle class than it's been in the last 10 years. Then ask yourself who is involved in the conspiracy to make you poor and stupid.

Mountain Rose
Didn't think I'd ever disagree with you. Outsourcing is not a recent phenomena. And with unemployment under 5%, historically low, and with all kinds of jobs not reported being worked by illegal immigrants, just who is getting hurt by outsourcing? Who would be working these outsourced jobs. Also, it has been proven to many economist's satisfaction, that there is a net gain to our work force and economy due to outsourcing and the resulting efficiencies. And despite all the rhetoric, the average wage has risen this decade.

As to the CEOs, I don't think they hold a gun to anyone's head while others decide what they will be paid. I agree that they are probably overpaid from a common sense viewpoint. However, if that's what it takes to get them, then that's what it takes. I just don't understand wanting to punish the productive in this society. I choose to learn from and become one of them. And when I get there, despite all the sacrifices made and hard work invested, someone will take a snapshot in time and call me lucky.

Fletch
I was not talking about marginal rates, I was referring to actual percentages paid by the group classified as "wealthy." My point being that when their marginal rates were raised, they found creative ways to fight back and actually paid a lesser, real percentage.

No system works without the character
of the participant being part of the equation.

Dennis Prager often points out that the constitution of the USSR was very similar to the Constitution of the United States of America in awarding rights to the people.

Yet while the US was the "shining city on the hill" that drew everyone to our shores to partake of our freedoms, the Soviet Union sunk into a swamp of oppression.

The difference?

The Soviet Union was purposefully atheistic, while the United States, though no officially religious, remains a very spiritual country.

The class warfare will continue to grow greater as people continue to grow more grasping and selfish, and as we continue to elect leaders who are without character.

a funny argument
It is silly to argue that there are not costs to raising taxes on the rich, just as it is silly arguing that there are not costs to not cutting taxes on the middle class, or that spending increases does not have an effect on tax revenues. Or for that matter that deficits can be run up forever without cost. The real question is, of course, how to balance these costs. If Pay-go is taken seriously then these trade offs will be more explicit than usual. Dems will not pass any tax increases that are not tied to either tax cuts or spending increases since they will need them to balance the tax cuts and spending increases.

One of the amusing arguments one sees in discussions like this is the argument that the Reagan tax cuts produced increased revenues, but were not responsible for the deficits. If only spending had not increased there would have been no deficits, but presumably to make the argument not a non-sequitor there still would have been the revenue increases.

But this assumes that the massive spending increases at the time did not have an effect on tax revenue. For this we have to believe that the doctors who benefited from increased health care spending did not pay more in taxes, and that the engineers who benefited from increased defense spending were similarly tax-free. And that unlike the wealthy who benefited from the tax cuts, that these people did not reinvest their money in the economy. (This is a rather tricky assumption since some of these people presumably were among the wealthy who benefited from the tax cuts, and so we have to assume that they reinvested the part of their income that was due to the tax cuts, but not the part of their income that was due to the spending increases. One has to wonder whether they needed to higher clever accountants to make this work.

RE: Phylo
I see you can't help but regurgitate DNC talking points. Allow me to correct you:

"First of all, a tax hike of a few percentage points on the very wealthy is not going to do anything to the economy. Does anyone seriously think that some guy making 3million a year is going to quite working because he has to pay an extra $20,000 or $30,000?"

Yes. And history proves this.

And even if they don't stop working, they have that much more incentive to just avoid paying those taxes. They'll defer taxable incomes, reallocate investments, or simply use illigitimate and/or illegal means to not pay the additional taxes.

"But, but, we can't write tax law based upon how people might break the law!!!!" you say?

If you believe taxes are imposed in order to raise government revenues, you DO take into account illegal activities. Enforcing the law costs money, and thus if it costs as much, or more, to enforce a particular tax law because so many people are breaking that law, then you are doing more harm than good (an excellent example is the "death tax"...it costs as much to enforce that law as it generates in revenues).

But, alas, you're NOT a rational person who thinks taxes are there to raise revenues. You think taxes are a means of imposing your perverted version of "fairness". Hence the reason why revenue generation is only a secondary consideration when considering tax law.

"And besides, as Medved said, she is talking about a tax cut for the middle class. So it's a wash anyway."

Unfortunately for you, the "rich" pay far, far, FAR more in taxes than whatever Pelosi lables "the middle class". I remember when I was reading Al "The Dumbest Man In America" Franken's ridiculous book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them", he had me laughing within the first 5 pages. No, not because he told a good joke -- his jokes haven't been funny for at least 2 decades, but because a supposedly "educated" man (albeit, a degree in "General Studies"...say, outside of being a commedian who's jokes haven't been funny in 2 decades, exactly WHAT does a degree in "General Studies" qualify a person to be?) could be so monumentally STUPID!

Franken (and his team of "Harvard grad student fact checkers") said something to the effect "Bush's tax cuts were exclusively biased tot he rich!!! The top 60% of income earners got 85% of the tax cut!!!".

Now I know, Phylo, you actually think that means "the rich" disproportionately benefitted. That's why you're dumb enough to be a Democrat. But unfortunately for you, the bottom 40% of income earners not only pay next to no income taxes (something like about 0.4% of the total taxes to be exact), most actually not only don't pay nything, but also get extra money BACK! That the bottom 40% got 15% of the tax cut (according to Franken, et al) means THEY were the ones to disproportionately benefit!

In short, it is NOT a "wash". The rich pay FAR more in taxes, so a 3% hike in their taxes is MUCH more significant than a 20% decrease in taxes to the so-called "middle class" (say, what, exactly, constitutes "the middle class", anyhow?).

"But no one is going to significantly alter their tax strategy over a couple of percentage points. It wouldn't be worth the effort."

So you're telling me "the rich" -- read: those people who know how to manage their money -- don't really know how to manage their money after all?

"I see, so it's more fair to shift the tax burden onto the less succesful people in our economy who can least afford it. Yeah that's fair."

Bush's tax cut pushed more of the burden to the rich, so you should be celebrating this. A full 35% of income earners now no longer have ANY incoe tax burden at all, thanks to Bush.

"And under the current circumstances, more revenues will not grow the government, it will go toward reducing the deficit––a good thing for all of us."

I take it the Reagan era deficits don't mean anything to you? Revenues under Reagan more than doubled, yet the deficit was still there. How do you suppose that happened?

"And yes, there are huge differences between Republicans and Democrats. As the Republicans have proven: Republicans are about protecting the wealth of the wealthy and Democrats are about addressing the needs of ALL Americans."

Uh huh. So why is it that the tax burdenof the poorest Americans grew under the Clinton years, yet fell under the Bush years?

"Perfectly Legal by David Kay Johnston should be required reading for all Americans. It would arm us all against the kind of tricky rhetoric Medved and Rove and Grover Nordquist regularly display."

And "Capitalism and Freedom", by Nobel Prize Winner Milton Friedman, should be required reading. It would arm thinking people against the lies by people like you.

Very interesting Cookie
but I don't think they can count me and most of the people I know who worked in my industry who used to make good salaries and are now scraping to get by.

There is a saying, figures don't lie, but liars figure, and I have seen it to be true.

When we were let go, my division had several hundred workers and something like 20 vice presidents- in ONE DIVISION.

They let the workers go and kept the vice presidents, who probably made as much as all the workers combined.

And what did these people do to earn these large saleries, since no product was being made?

The went to meetings and made thick reports that no one ever read, and had three hour lunches- but still no product.

This was finally put to a stop when the CEO was finally forced out by the stockholders and the President of my division was replaced with someone who had a clue. What did he do first? Fire all the expensive, useless, money sucking executives whose primary activity was perpetuating their jobs.

Sounds like a bunch of lousy bureaucratic politicians, ay?

My heart will not bleed for these Bozos until they shape up and start running the companies like they have a modicum of integrity.

Atlas Shrugged
With the Democratic changes we may see in our future, what can happen to all of us reminds me of Ayn Rand's book, Atlas Shrugged.

If you have a few hundred hours and asprin, read it. It's scary and oh so similar to what may lay ahead for all of us.

Cookie
"As to the CEOs, I don't think they hold a gun to anyone's head while others decide what they will be paid."
*******************************

Where have you been? What these guys to is get themselves onto each others board of directors and vote each other pay raises.

Nothing like corrosive cronyism to make once great companies start to swirl the bowl.

RE: SouthpawPower
Funny how you omit one important fact when talking about Clinton's tax revenues.

In 1997, Clinton signed into law a huge capital gains tax CUT (read: "tax cut for the rich"). Note the year, and note that the 3 surplus years we had came AFTER that tax cut. Revenues from the capital gains tax following the cut set new revenue generating records.

Care to explain that in terms of your belief of "tax cuts cause revenues to drop, tax hikes cause them to increas" theory?

Lon
Your "funny argument" depends for its force on the assumption that money in public/governmental hands will be used in ways that have an equally impact on the creation of wealth as money in private hands.

This is a false assumption. Government can only spend money in a consumer fashion; it cannot create wealth. Only private entities can create wealth, and it is only the creation of wealth that generates higher tax revenues in the end.

Mountain Rose
I sincerely sympathize with your situation. There are companies poorly run by bad people. Apparently, you were part of one. My experience has been mostly different. Most people I know running companies or in upper management are working much harder than the average worker. The average worker works from 9 to 5 and can go home. And you should hear the whining if they are asked to stay an extra 15 minutes to finish a task or emergency. Owners and upper management are constantly on the run-but this is my personal experience.

I decided long ago to work for myself. I didn't want to be in my fifties and in middle management, and have someone decide I am expendable for a younger, cheaper version of myself. Plus, this allows me to make my own schedule, coach my kids sports teams, and generally be a better father and husband. Of course, no one sees me working at midnight.

CVN65
please contact me at AT1AW_USN@yahoo.com

Income Tax hikes hurt everyone!
You couldn't have said it any better Brother Medved! You indeed sound like a FairTax supporter. Everything you said points to getting rid of the Income Tax Code. A FLAT TAX is still an INCOME TAX! The orginal code was once a flat tax. A flat tax does not get rid of all the chichanry that goes on in Washington. The congress will still have the power to determine what is or is not income thereby leaving the opening for all sorts of loopholes to be bought by one or another lobby.

The only solution is to eliminate all income taxation, wealth transfer taxes (estate taxes, gift taxes) payroll taxes, and capital gains taxes and replace them with a NATIONAL RETAIL SALES TAX ON CONSUMPTION. A consumption tax as envisioned in HR25 The Fair Tax Bill just re-introduced by Congressman John Linder (GA) with 24 co-sponsors does just that.

When the government can tax all your income or part of your income, you are not free.

When the government via a tax return knows where you go to church, what you tithe, who your doctors are, how much you spent with them, how much you gave to charity and who they are, you are not free.

Wake up America, we must, must, must, pass HR25 and regain our Economic Freedom.

Ah...Good ol' Fletch
"Quite the contrary, the points that I make frequently include actual data, and demonstrable facts easily obtained from the IRS, Census Bureau, the CBO, etc. The assertions I make about what happens in the wake of either tax or minimum wage changes or the impact of deficit spending is based on clear economic principles."

Sorry, I've got to call B.S. on you, too. What you are essentially conceding above is that your assertions are unsupported:

"frequently include actual data" - doesn't matter if it's "actual data" if you don't attribute the source.

"demonstrable facts easily obtained from the IRS, Census Bureau, the CBO, etc." - in other words, you don't support your assertion. Whether the data is easily obtainable is irrelevant. You are either supporting your evidence or you are not. For example: "But the issue is that federal INCOME TAX revenues (which are unaffedcted by changes to FICA) increased sharply as the economy turned in the wake of the cuts." Well, how do I know revenues increased as a result of the cuts? Let alone "sharply"? How do I know it was "as the economy turned in the wake of the cuts"?

"clear economic principles" - How do I know that they are "clear"? A lot of people think the Laffer Curve is a clear principle. A lot of people - very reputable economists - think it isn't. Most readers here are not economists and have never examined the Laffer Curve for themselves. So how does all that make it "clear"?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but cut out the holier-than-thou attitude. If you aren't going to support your evidence either, then it's a wash. Let's all go about our business.

FergusMacLennan
No I don't assume public spending has the same impact on revenue as private spending anymore than I assume that all public spending has the same impact on revenue as all other public spending, or all private spending etc.

I do assume that public spending has an impact on revenue and gave some pretty clear examples from where public spending grew the most in the 80's. In response you gave what seems to be an argument by slogan. Both private and public spending produce salaries which produce revenue. Employees of both public and private entities spend money producing demand which supports jobs, etc. Both public and private employees invest money in companies to meet or create demand.

I don't want to go to far in making this equation. Clearly there are things that the private sector does better than the public, and it makes a difference what things are handled by which. But what remains a funny argument, to the point that the people who make it deserve to be ridiculed and not taken seriously, is that one can take the revenue increases during times of tax cuts and spending increases, and assign those revenues to the tax cuts, while taking the deficits that have inevitably resulted and assign them to the spending increases. That is not a brand of economics that deserves to be taken seriously.

The Aristocracy and Multinationals...
control this government so they might as well pay the expenses of running it. I wish it wasn't this way but this is the current reality.

Tax cuts are a win-win-win situation
Tax cuts have:

1) Increased revenues to the federal treasury

2) Increased the percentage of total taxes paid by the "rich". This type of taxation is known as "progressive".

3) Reduced unemployment and kept interest rates down (the reverse of the Jimmy Carter - Democrat Congress inspired "stagflation" of the late 70's.

Liberals like big government, so they should applaud item 1 above.

Liberals claim to be progressive and insist that the rich carry the largest share of the tax burden, so they should also applaud item 2 above.

Liberals claim to be for the little guy who needs to keep his job and would like to be able to borrow money to buy a house or a car, so they should also applaud item 3 above, so what's their problem?

Answer: they are so full of partisanshi[p and hatred for Bush and the Republicans that they can't allow anyone to think the Republicans are and the Democrats are w rong about anything, especially taxes.

This is just one more issue on which the left puts its political fortunes and quest for power ahead of what's good for the country.

BTW - to you libs complaining about "deficits". Entitlements (NOT mandated by the Constitution)comprise 63% of spending and Defense (mandated by the Constitution) comprises 19%. I'll make you a deal. I'll support balancing the budget if you agree to do it by cutting 3 dollars of entitlements for every Defense dollar cut. Any takers?

So, in other words...
You didn't provide attribution for all, or nearly all, of the assertions you have made.

If you disagree, please point out above where you did.

This isn't about who is right and who is wrong. This is about you continually moaning about how statements made by others are just rhetoric or are unsupported. You do the exact same thing. I don't care if I can waste my time bouncing around the web trying to verify everything you say (and not everything can be verified, per se, i.e. some of your subjective statements). You don't provide sources for your statements. The IRS publishes a lot of data. It publishes a lot of data that can be read in different ways depending on what other data may be available, or depending on what time frames you are looking at. You virtually never provide any specific sourcing to the data you rely on.

You claim to be some kind of brilliant economist (and don't even try to claim that I need a cite for that...the condescension drips from your words). Yet you have a lot of trouble understanding this simple concept. If you do have an economics degree, is this how you wrote your research papers? I'm going to jump to a conclusion here and say, mmm...no.

The above obviously directed to Fletch
yup

Typos corrected
My proofread and corrected post reads thus.

Tax cuts have:

1) Increased revenues to the federal treasury

2) Increased the percentage of total taxes paid by the "rich". This type of taxation is known as "progressive".

3) Reduced unemployment and kept interest rates down (the reverse of the Jimmy Carter - Democrat Congress inspired "stagflation" of the late 70's).

Liberals like big government, so they should applaud item 1 above.

Liberals claim to be progressive and insist that the rich carry the largest share of the tax burden, so they should also applaud item 2 above.

Liberals claim to be for the little guy who needs to keep his job and would like to be able to borrow money to buy a house or a car, so they should also applaud item 3 above, so what's their problem?

Answer: they are so full of partisanship and hatred for Bush and the Republicans that they can't allow anyone to think the Republicans are right and the Democrats are wrong about anything, especially taxes.

This is just one more issue on which the left puts its political fortunes and quest for power ahead of what's good for the country.

BTW - to you libs complaining about "deficits". Entitlements (NOT mandated by the Constitution)comprise 63% of spending and Defense (mandated by the Constitution) comprises 19%. I'll make you a deal. I'll support balancing the budget if you agree to do it by cutting 3 dollars of entitlements for every Defense dollar cut. Any takers?

David Stockman
David Stockman was Reagan's first budget director. He was a true Goldwater style fiscal conservative. He wanted to cut spending, cut taxes, balance the budget, and grow the economy. He quit in disgust when he realized Reagan only wanted to cut taxes, not spending.

I think Clinton and centerist democrats got it right: let's argue over spending, then set taxes to cover what we've agreed to spend. This is the paygo system put in place under Clinton and immediately repealed under Bush. You want to pay $100B/year less in taxes, fine -- get out of Iraq, eliminate the drug benefit, or whatever. As you can see, those options take courage, something TH people are short of. Cutting taxes without cutting spending is promising people free money. It sounds too good to be true and it is.

Fletch: "No, economics is a social science." Calling it social science doesn't make it scientific. Lots of philosophers are called social scientists dispite their having nothing to do with actual data or the scientific method. I don't think any high level economist, even former Republican officials at Harvard, think that increasing taxes by epsilon causes revenue to change by C*epsilon with C < 0, at least not in the US economy today.

The Laffer curve - for short
Your entire article could be summed up visually using Arther Laffer's famous "Laffer Curve." Of course, explaining it in any entertaining way is virtually impossible, as it glazes over even the most attentive eyes right away.

But as a "C" student in economics, I still got more out of that one concept as it related to how Democrats and Republicans look at tax policy than the rest of my many econ classes combined.

Unrelated note: Your pick of the Bears with your brain is the one I like, but I am concerned that you also tend to believe that God is going to go with the Seahawks. Hmmm, where to place the bet.


I agree with Grubby
Income and wealth are two different things. If the Democratic politicians really believed their arrogant, ignorant rhetoric, they would propose a tax on everyones net worth. But since they have theirs, they just want to rob the rest of us hard working slugs that are trying to earn enough to not burden our children once we get old enough to lose whats left of what we earned to medical bills. (Sorry but this is a little off topic) When I was a child my parents could actually afford medical care, and I am 1 of 5 children. I remember hearing my mom wroking out payments direclty with the doctor or dentist. Enter the government and now medical cost continually skyrockets, and quality declines. No one even talks about affrodable medical care any more...It's all about medical insurance.

Fletch - I love it.
"An argument can be made that a statement lacking specific immediate citation qualifies as "unsupported"." - What is your counterargument, if any? Oh wait...I see it:

"However, when I use that particular descriptive, I am restricting it to those cases where support for such a position isn't merely missing, but, rather nonexistent." And you're the judge of this, apparently? We just have to trust that your assertions are supported by evidence that exists somewhere out there?

Whatever. I'm not going to change minds on this. You and John Galt can believe whatever the heck you want to believe. I just am sick and tired of people hypocritically demanding evidence for every last little statement made by the opposition, but none for statements made by their political bedmates.

liberalgoodman
I agree with what you say on spending-I think most conservatives do. However, you are talking pure fiction when it comes to Clinton. He NEVER projected a balanced budget assuning his administration would last 8 years. After the Republicans got in in '94, that's when the economy got going. The only cuts Clinton carried through on was in the military. Ironically, one of the few areas our Constitution authorizes spending.

It also takes courage to limit the Cost of Living increase in SS that outpace actual need in that sector. It takes courage to reform SS. It takes courage to do something about immigration that is costing us federally and locally in services. I agree on the drug benefit. However, if the Liberals had their way (as evidenced by their statements), we would be spending much more on this benefit. Education, we aren't spending enough, despite record increases. Courage is a 2-way street.

How about the simplest reason?
That the decimal point will be soon moved 1-2 places (meaning instead of $500,000 incomes of $50,000 or even $5,000 will be subject to clobbering).

Government:
Whether good, bad, or indifferent and at all levels is a parasite on those who produce the products that generate the income that support all of us, including the government.

Clyde9

Pelosi Taxing the Rich! Unbelievable!
Congress should do away with the AMT Tax now which is penalizing the middle income people. The second thing they could do is to start a new tax system that lets us decide when we pay taxes and how much.Imagine a new tax system that LETS YOU DECIDE when you pay taxes and how much... The fairtax in committee now should be considered by congress. It would repeal all personal income, Gift,estate, Capital Gains, AMT, Social Security, Medicare, Self Employment and Corporate Taxes. Instead of paying unfair taxes, all we'll have to pay is a consumption tax at the cash register each time we buy goods and services. But only for new goods because all used goods are tax free. With the fair tax the IRS is phased out and no individual or business is required to file an income or payroll tax return again EVER! The Fairtax fully funds Social Security, Medicare, and all other government services! And to make sure no family pays any taxes on the necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, Transportation, medical care Etc), The fair tax has a generous built -in rebate system so each household in America is MAILED A CHECK ON THE 1ST OF EACH MONTH AND EVERY MONTH FOR BETWEEN $188-$767!.The truly incredible BENIFITS and ADVANTAGES of the fair tax doesn't stop there. Since capital and labor won't be penalized by taxes BUSINESSES WILL STAMPEDE to locate in the US. WE will become the #1 place in the world for corporations, manufactoring, plants, and service companies. This translates into JOBS AND MORE JOBS while the Gross Domestic product explodes 9-14% supercharging our economy.
CONTINUES FUNDING FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE AND PROVIDES FOR ALL OTHER GOVERNMENT SERVICES... Right now, only 40% of our people actually pay taxes out of a population of 300,000,000. But with the fairtax, everyone pays a small amount --honest, hardworking, Americans, big spending teens, 50 million or so annual foreign visitors, illegal aliens, and even those who now escape taxes altogether because they are part of a trillion-dollar undergroun/criminal economy.
.Your SPENDABLE INCOME INCREASES by thousands because you get to KEEP 100% of your paycheck, pension and all other income. This in turn PUSHES your affordable income upwards an incredible 48.05%
. HIDDEN TAXES(estimateed by experts to be 20-25% in the price of everything you buy today from a bar of soap to a car or house) DISAPPEAR!
. INTEREST RATES DROP 25% or more which helps businesses expand and create even more jobs WHILE SAVING YOU THOUSANDS MORE EACH YEAR on credit card interest, car loans, your mortgage , you name it!
>WEEDS OUT ALL THE POLICAL GRAFT, FRAUD, SHDY TRANSACTIONS AND AWESOME PILES OF CAMPAIGN CASH funnelled by Lobbyists, the privileded, the wealthy, and the connected to get tax breaks, exemtions , credits, and other loopholes.
everyone may think the Fairtax is "too good to be true"...NOT SO! The fair tax bill is already in congress and has 50 CO-SPONSORS... iTS BACKED BY 75 FAMOUS ECONOMISTS from such prestigious institutions like Harvard University... The president said he would be "open" to it, Alan Greenspan, retired Chairman of the Federal Reserve says that a consumption tax system "would be best from the perspective of promoting economic growth"... Pelosi and the other Democrats will never support this great way of getting more money for all of America based on what you Buy, which would increase more tax revenue from the wealthy who spend a lot of money. Can you imagine what a wealthy person would pay when they bought a 10 million dollar home or a Jet Aircraft, or yaught or 350k auto that now they can buy and deduct taxes on. Can you imagine not paying any taxes on your income, Have free Social Security, Medicare, and hospitalization on all of America, Never having to file Income Taxes. Only paying a tax on what you buy.

Income Taxation is Wrong
Governments first job is to get elected, second job is get reelected.
Everything in between is just bowing to the most vocal group.
Tax should be based on consumption only. Perhaps nieve but certainly fair, and I would love to settle for fair. A wholesale tax on every transaction (buying groceries, lawyer fees, plumber bills, taxi rides, etc.) would go a long way to bringing fairness to the tax system. If someone wants to stuff all their money into a matress and not spend it they will not pay tax but then they will not use any services either. The poorest will buy the $1.00 package of hamburger and pay say $0.10 tax, the very rich will buy the filet at $10 and pay $1.00 tax. Taxing each transaction will tend to dump out some of the middlemen. If the cost of a product goes up 10% each time it is sold it will be difficult for those who don't add any value to stay in busines.
One provision to keep things fair would be tax everything, no exceptions. Then no buracracy is needed to monitor the system. Seller remits the tax plain and simple, no rebates, no credit for tax paid on raw material, no distinctions. If you pay someone for something you pay the tax and they remit to the government.


FAIRTAX SYSTEM BEFORE CONGRESS
ALL OF aMERICA NEEDS TO PUSH THE NEW CONGRESS ON ADOPTING THE FAIRTAX SYSTEM TO SAVE AMERICA. FURTHER WE NEED TO PUSH CONGRESS TO DO AWAY WITH LOBBYISTS WHO DAMAGE OUR COUNTRY AND COST AMERICANS JOBS AND HIGHER TAXES. THEIR PENETRATION INTO OUR LIVES AND THROUGH OUR CONGRESS IS UNBELIEVABLE. THE PRESIDENT HAS NO LOBBYISTS, HOW COME CONGRESS THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR LOOKING AFTER THEIR CITIZENS KNOCKS THE PRESIDENT WHILE LOBBYISTS ARE SITTING IN THEIR OFFICES OR HAVING DINNER, OR TRAVELING WITH THEM. HUH! aMERICA NEEDS NOW TO GET INVOLVED IN OUR POLITICAL FUTURE.

This thread has me convinced that
the liberal mindset is immune to facts and logic. And those that inject a "fairness" concept into arguments are mentally disturbed, as it shows an egocentric disorder as they try to subject all to their idea of fair (which, as they fall back on, trumps all facts and logic). I give up on the current crop of liberals and shall henceforth focus on educating the young on common sense economics and finance.

Phylo confuses wealth with income....
Phylo writes:

"And yes, there are huge differences between Republicans and Democrats. As the Republicans have proven: Republicans are about protecting the wealth of the wealthy and Democrats are about addressing the needs of ALL Americans"

Democrats have failed over and over again. Few government progrms made individuals self-sufficient contributors. On the contrary, government programs have imprisoned people and made them slothful, and have created a class of government entitlement dependents.

Yes Phylo, raising taxes (if on wealth) will only prompt the wealthy to shelter their wealth. It happens over and over again. The Kennedy's have much of their wealth tied up in off shore accounts, mainly to avoid the death tax. And raising income taxes will prompt sheltering income.

But to those who don't have the means or knowledge:

It penalizes those who have normally middle class incomes, but on a particular year, they do very well. Maybe they sell real estate, maybe they hit the stock option jackpot, but now they have to pay much higher taxes, robbing them of money they have earned, transfering it to your local politican's pet project.

It penalizes those who are toward the end of their careers and are probably "cashing" in their chips for retirement.

And yes it penalizes weath producers, who by simple phone calls will do anything to lower their tax burdens. My boss, a progressive, made sure his ski condo in Breckenridge (when remodelled with materials) didn't get the Breckenridge tax rates for the materials, but the rather the away 45 or so mile away city of Denver, which has a lower sales tax.....all done with a simple phone call, saving probably on the order of 1-2% on building materials.

Its really that simple, and if you are shrewd, as those who have the kind of incomes that we are talking about, they'll find ways to do it to.

Besides, what we are talking about is an INCOME tax, and not a "WEALTH" tax. So your theory republicans are only about protecting "WEALTH" is a pure leftist pablum.


A tax what?
Why is it that a massive tax cut puts $5 into my paycheck but minor tax increase costs me $50.

Personal injury lawyer on a banana peel?
http://www.givemetheinfo.com/blog/blogger.html

cookie on the Clinton surplus says:
"I agree with what you say on spending-I think most conservatives do. However, you are talking pure fiction when it comes to Clinton. He NEVER projected a balanced budget assuning his administration would last 8 years."

I've seen this statement in other threads too. What does it mean? Clinton didn't create a surplus? He didn't want to balance the budget? Congress made him do it? (The same congress didn't make Bush do it.) He projected returning deficits in the out years?

It isn't that I disagree, I really just don't know what your claim is. Thanks.

response to Fletch
Phylo: "First of all, a tax hike of a few percentage points on the very wealthy is not going to do anything to the economy. Does anyone seriously think that some guy making 3million a year is going to quite working because he has to pay an extra $20,000 or $30,000?"

Fletch: Gee, if that analogy had anything to do with actual reality... The way it works is this: an additional tax burden raises the required level of return for any investment (in economically productive activities, whether through work product or direct investment) and disincents such behavior in such a way that, in the aggregate, it can have a profound effect (read: drag) on the overall economy. The "oh, well, we're just giving a little pin prick to those that can afford it" argument is based entirely upon envy and is completely disconnected from the economic reality as demonstrated by real world experience.

Phylo: I understand that a huge tax increases would be a real drag on the economy, but a small increase to the wealthiest 1% is something that this economy can easily absorb. I can gurantee that you won't be able to measure the amount of drag it would be on the economy. And if you can't measure it, how do you know it's really there?


Phylo: "And besides, as Medved said, she is talking about a tax cut for the middle class. So it's a wash anyway."

Fletch: Can anyone actually BE so naive?!?! It is no accident that she failed to quantify the amount of tax releif that would be given to the middle class. That it would be "a wash" is merely an assumption. And it is a virtula certainty that a tax hike for the "rich" and a tax cut for the middle class would NOT be in the same piece of legislation and that the tax hike will be submitted first. The tax cut for the middle class is as likely to appear as it was when Clinton promised one and never delivered.

Phylo: Wow, you're not only an economist you're a fortune teller as well. This isn't a serious rebuttal of what I just said; it's pure speculation. Can you at least admit that, if there is an equivalent tax cut for the middle class that there would be no drag on the economy?



Phylo: "Also, notice how Medved characterizes the wealthy as these wonderful people who create jobs for the rest of us. I guess he's forgetting about the CEO who stays up nights trying to figure out how to shed as many jobs as he can, or ship them overseas."

Medved is not responsible for your hallucinations. Every job is created for one reason and one reason only. People and organizations with resources (such as the wealthy) choose to invest those resources in a manner that will generate a return for them. THIS CREATES JOBS - nothing else. Those who employ more than they can afford will eventually go bankrupt eliminating all the jobs in that company. And those who engage in "outsourcing" are engaging in a practice that provides cheaper goods for American consumers and enhances economic efficiencies invariably creating MORE jobs in this country (and at generally higher pay) than are outsourced. The US is a huge net INsourcer of jobs. [Other economists, please excuse the use of misnomers.]

Phylo: You're an economist and you think that wealthy people investing their money is the ONLY thing that creates jobs? Human creativity doesn't help to create jobs? It wasn't just wealth that created Microsoft, Fletch, it was mostly human creativity. And what about people who work for the government or for non-profits? NOTHING ELSE creates jobs Fletch? NOTHING ELSE?

Phylo: "And notice how he doesn't mention Wall St investment bankers who are basically a bunch of leeches sucking the blood out of investors."

Fletch: He doesn't mention that the Wicked Witch of the West has recruited an army of Storm Troopers under Darth Maul and plans to unleash Lord Voldemort on the unsuspecting masses either - and for exactly the same reason. Investment bankers facilitate the flow of capital to productive enterprises, increasing economic efficiencies, creating jobs and making us all better off. Ooooo, those rat b@st@rds!

Phylo: Actually, I meant to say "stock brokers" rather than "investment bankers". And I actually trained as a stock broker until I realized that I hated it. And I hated it because the way it works in the real world is that you call people up all day long trying to get them to invest in something... anything. And once you get them in you churn churn churn. Stock brokers are leeches living off of the blood of investors. These people do not create jobs––unless you want to count the old people who have to come out of retirement to feed themselves after some stock broker lost all of their money.


Phylo: "Also, when some millionaire buys some Microsoft stock from some other millionaire, this does nothing to create jobs. The only time an investor is really investing his money is in an IPO. Otherwise their just speculators."

Fletch: You just can't get anything right can you. Just how many obviously ridiculous statements can you make in a single offering? The flow of capital to organizations that actively employ people incents those organizations to invest in their core business to their own benefit which, inevitably, creates jobs. In the example cited, the one millionaire believes Microsoft is a good investment; the other has, apparently, found what he believes is a better investment. Alll such transactions ultimately put capital to the most efficient use the market can find which is, again, the only thing that ever creates jobs.

Phylo: When one millionaire buys stock from some other millionaire, there is no money flowing to any organization you idiot. It doesn't go to a company that will then invest in their core business. It goes directly into the account of the other millionaire who may or may not have made money on the deal. This, in and of itself, does nothing to creat jobs (accept for stock brokers).


Phylo: "If we were talking about raising rates by 10 or 20% he might have a point."

Fletch: It is a simple law of economics that the degree does not alter the effect. Raising taxes by 50% has the same impact as raising them by 1%. Setting a minimum wage at $200/hr has the same impact as setting it at $6.15. The only things that are different are the degree of that impact and, consequently, its visibility. Because the visibility is lesser with the degree, some people foolishly believe that there are circumstances where such actions can be "beneficial" despite the complete lack of evidence to support such a position.

Phylo: I agree that tax increases are generally a drag on the economy. But if you raise taxes on the richest one percent and then lower taxes on the middle class, which is what the Democrats want to do, then there won't be any negative effect.



Phylo: "But no one is going to significantly alter their tax strategy over a couple of percentage points."

Fletch: This, like the rest of your statements, is factually wrong. People change their behavior based upon what you perceive as negiligible impacts all the time. moreover, the issue is not what any one individual would do, but what happens in the aggregate, which would include those individuals whose condition changes to a degree that wouldn't have had them alter their behavior under the old level but the new tax rate is just enough to incent him to do so.

Phylo: Perhaps I shouldn't have said "no one". I'm sure there are some idiots out there who would pay thirty thousand dollars to a tax attourney in order to save $20,000 on their taxes just to spite the government. Seriously though Fletch, how much time is a guy making 60,000 per week going to waste trying to save 20,000? You economists must think that everyone thinks in numbers like you geeks do.


Phylo: "I see, so it's more fair to shift the tax burden onto the less succesful people in our economy who can least afford it. Yeah that's fair."

Since, of course, the tax system in this country is ALREADY progressive (even factoring in sales, property and payroll taxes), this is a rather silly complaint. It is shown to be more so by the simple fact that, as has been demonstrated ad nauseum, the lower tax rates have resulted in a HIGHER percentage of the taxes being paid by the wealthy. Thus, the complaint isn't merely silly, it is contrary to objective reality.

Phylo: This is sheer sophistry. You're telling me that lowering taxes on the wealthy means that the wealthy pay a higher percentage of taxes? Maybe we should lower the taxes on the rich to zero, then they would be paying all of our tax burden, right Fletch?


Phylo: "And under the current circumstances, more revenues will not grow the government, it will go toward reducing the deficit––a good thing for all of us."

Fletch: There has NEVER in the history of this country been a circumstance where increased federal revenues did not result in governmental growth. In fact, the sorely missed Milton friedman developed the notion of "equilibrium deficts" based on the reality that the public in general demands more services whenever there is a surplus OR when the deficit is below the thershold deemed a concern by the public at large. Thus, increaed revenues can actually result in HIGHER deficits depending upon changes in public attitudes.

Phylo: That's because this government has never gotten smaller. It has continually gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. It's gotten bigger, in part, because our counrty has gotten bigger. This is regardless of whether or not there is a surplus or a deficit.

The fact is, we have to start paying down our debt and reducing the deficit sooner or later. And the money has got to come from some where. If raising taxes on the wealthy by a few percentage points will do the trick without harming the economy in any measurable way, I'm all for it.


Phylo out.


SizzleLean
Wow. Congratulations. I thought it couldn't get worse, but it can. I take it by this comment:

"And those that inject a "fairness" concept into arguments are mentally disturbed, as it shows an egocentric disorder as they try to subject all to their idea of fair (which, as they fall back on, trumps all facts and logic)."

That you were referring to Monty's and my own objections to evidentiary double standards. I don't know what else you would be referring to.

You think it's unfair that conservatives should have to be held to the same standard as liberals, and vice versa? You think such a thing is indicative of mental disturbance? You sound like a third-grader who refuses to play by the rules because, well, he doesn't want to. If I have misinterpreted what you are saying, feel free to correct me. But I really reject the idea that asking for a universal standard is some kind of "fairness doctrine". I'm not dictating results. I'm only saying that if you want to criticize people for not providing evidence, then you better well provide evidence when it's your turn? Please, please tell me why that is unacceptable to you. I beg you.

Liberal/Conservative bias
When you live your life and form all of your opinions through the filter of 'is it liberal or is it conservative?' you always end up wrong about something. And the basic error all American fall into is that they think they pay income taxes, even though the money is actually paid by their bosses.

Sure, it's called a withholding tax, and scores of accountants, economists, tax lawyers and other suchlike experts will be quick to tell you that it comes out of your fantasy income that your boss tells you he pays you, but he never pays you the full amount of your so-called income because he has to 'withhold' it for you, which means, in plain simple english anyone can understand if they try, that he PAYS IT FOR YOU.

Once the paycheck party wakes up to the full realization that their bosses are playing a very simple shell game with their salaries and that they really don't pay these income taxes at all, people will stop focussing on the taxes and start focussing on the number actually printed on the paycheck, which is the true income we all actually put in our banks and call our own.

The best day in American history will be the day they stop calling the withholding tax our income tax and start calling our salary what we really get on our paychecks. Because that day the complaints and problems about taxes will be solely between the bosses and the politicians.

Questions From An Economics Dummy

It's important to me to believe that there is some kind of sound scientific basis (or maybe more generally a logical basis) to economics, but as I read over many of the comments here I get this uneasy feeling that over and over again I'm reading variations on a basic slide from 'scientific' or at least 'logical' economic reasoning into RightWing Ideology supported by cherry-picking of isolated nuggets of economics.

For instance I grasp the concept, counter-intuitive though it may be to the economically naive such as myself, that raising tax rates does not necessarily increase tax revenues! (There, I'm a Liberal and I admit the truth of that!) Indeed, I can understand the process by which a cut in tax rates may actually increase revenues, due to stimulation and growth of the economy. (In other words, the Gospel according to Limbaugh.)

This makes economic sense, I guess. But I've heard precious few people on the Right (like maybe zero, to be precise), opine that tax rates might already be sufficiently low, or indeed ever could be sufficiently low. If the economic principle in the previous paragraph were actually the be-all and end-all, then let's keep lowering our tax rates, so we'll get higher and higher tax revenues! In fact, let's lower rates to ZERO, so we'll have INFINITE tax revenues....right?

This is obvious twaddle, yet it's left to economically naive me to point this out. I can't help feeling that this simple truth is just too odious to RightWing tax-cut ideology to be recognized and considered.

So it is, I fear, with much of my search for economic wisdom among the sages here at TH. Everybody sure SOUNDS (or reads) like they know what they're talking about, but I can't lose this nagging sense that all too often the ideology subtly creeps in and smoothly replaces the logic.

Yikes
Reading the article and all the comments above makes me realize why I HATED Economics courses in college, when I majored in accounting way back when! What a mish-mash of arguments for and against, pro and con, "no it doesn't, yes it does."

How on earth does anyone sort out the TRUTH from all these contradictory statements??

Deficit versus debt - which is what? And how are they calculated?

Tax cuts, tax revenues, percentages (which are deceiving in and of themselves) of this and that monetary figure, wealthy/middle class/poor, altered definitions of various "terms," depending on whether you're a liberal or conservative....I'M SICK OF IT.

Reagan did this...no he didn't...Clinton did that...no he didn't...Bush did such-snd-such...no he didn't. Make up your minds!

Just give 10% of whatever your INCREASE is, like the good book says, and be done with it. Send your return in at the end of the year on a 3x5 postcard, sign it and it's over.

Yeah, and it's tax time again...and I'm gonna be swamped. Ask ME who pays the taxes in this country - I do the returns, and I see who pays the most! And the least.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
Here Here. Well said.

Phylo out.

Re: Yikes
So, I'm trying to understand this myself, but in response to what you said:

Deficit is the amount that our government's budget exceeds our revenue. I.e., our budget calls for spending $3 Trillion, we receive tax revenues of $2.3 Trillion, our deficit is $700 Billion. This is an annual figure.

Debt is the total amount we owe. I believe we owe this money to whoever buys U.S. Treasury Bonds, etc., of which China owns the largest amount.

It seems most of the argument here comes down to the Laffer Curve, of which a good description can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve . Basically, the idea is that at some point, if you increase taxes you will see a decline in the revenue gained from these taxes, as people will either work less due to lack of incentives, or evade more taxes. My understanding is, however, that the point at which "diminishing returns" kicks in is hotly contested, and could be any where from 33% (or lower) to 85% (or higher) depending on who you ask.

Conservatives who advocate tax cuts sometimes use the argument that we are already past the point of diminishing returns, thus cutting taxes raises revenue. Liberals will say this is not the case, that in order to reduce the deficit (and hence the national debt), we must raise taxes in order to raise revenue. They also argue that this is best accomplished by raising taxes on the rich while reducing taxes on the middle class or poor. Conservatives argue that cutting taxes on the rich increases wealth, grows the economy, and thus increases revenue from taxes and increases income at all levels.

My question is, if economics truly is a hard science, or at least close, why can't anyone conclusively prove this? It seems that most of the data flowing around here is anecdotal, such as "this president raised taxes, and revenues increased", while "this president lowered taxes, and revenues increased". Can't we isolate general economic trends, such as growth of GDP, from the tax rate, see how revenues would act, and compare that to the proven (not speculated) affects of a tax increase/cut? I think it would be hard to argue with lowering taxes if that genuinely improved the economy AND increased revenues, and it would be equally hard to argue with raising taxes if it did NOT hurt the economy and DID increase revenue. Why hasn't this been approached objectively, or has it? Are taxes just too politically charged these days?

My two cents.

Taxes
Unfortunately, Michael Medved is trying to arrange revisionist history on taxes and their impacts. Bush 41 violated his "Read My Lips" pledge with a large tax increase in 1990-1 in order to try to balance a budget that was completely out of wack. Clinton followed this tax increase with yet another tax increase ato the beginning of his term in 1993. Yet, the economy thrived for nearly a decade following these tax increases with the largest economic expansion in history. On top of that the combination of a Republican Congress and Democratic President combined to reduce spending and actually create a surplus on the national debt. So raising taxes really has not effected the economy the way some lead us to believe and yes the wealthy can afford a few more percentage points.

However, in the last six years, with total Republican Control the budget has spiraled out of control. So much so that 33.3% of the entire national debt since 1776 has been accumulated since Bush 43 has taken office in 2001. Anyone who doesn't believe this statement should go to the website, http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm
I for one am certainly alarmed.

Medved is right there is distinct differences between Republicans and Democrats. The reality is the Democrats want to Tax and Spend while the Republican want to Borrow and Spend which will eventually lead us back to higher taxes. Either way the problem is government spending. The real
solution would be to change the way congress operates. I personally advocate a vote on every single budget item by the full congress, they would have to prioritize to get work accomplished, it would eliminate pork because their vote would not be hidden in a omnibus bills, it would eliminate most government wasteful spending and it would by itself give the President the line item veto because everything would be a line item.

RE: Yikes
Persnickety: So who does pay the taxes?

Flaming
Ever heard of the point of diminishing returns?

As for the article itself, "Republicans will begin to rebuild our majorities by emphasizing RADICAL, corruption-reducing tax simplification (either a Fair Tax on Consumption or a Flat Tax on Income)..."

They will? They weren't very active about it when they had the chance, but now they'll expect us to believe them when they say, "Give us back the power and we'll do it right (this time)" ?

Save America: Enact the FairTax!
First of all, it is the only way a Republican will win the White House in '08. If a candidate would support the plan, you would see grassroots support like NEVER before.

Secondly, once it is enacted, and EVERYONE is free from the IRS, and the economy thrives, and the government is fully funded, then people will see that liberal programs and liberal policies don't work (even though they sure sound wonderful to the working man).

After the success of the FairTax, maybe people will actually see that public education, another liberal debacle, can't be saved by more liberal policies like No Child Left Behind.

We need conservative principals like competition and accountability (by parents and students) to save education in this country.

Anyway, if you haven't read up on the FairTax, you owe it to yourself to do your research tonight!

To foorgoblin
Amen to your 6:09 post! Makes it a little clearer, at least.

As to who pays the taxes, from my experience the ones on the lower end of the payscale pay nothing, or next to nothing, and get refunds of $$ they never paid in (earned income credit, and all that). If you're self-employed, though, nothing gets you out of that self-employment tax (paying in your double share of social security/medicare)! Well, maybe it's offset if you have kids and you get the EIC, but still...

The rich ones pay the most, by FAR.

And as far as the "death tax" goes, I have mixed feelings on that - there are two sides - but that's another topic, for another day.

OMFG, x2
FLM wrote: "This makes economic sense, I guess. But I've heard precious few people on the Right (like maybe zero, to be precise), opine that tax rates might already be sufficiently low, or indeed ever could be sufficiently low. If the economic principle in the previous paragraph were actually the be-all and end-all, then let's keep lowering our tax rates, so we'll get higher and higher tax revenues! In fact, let's lower rates to ZERO, so we'll have INFINITE tax revenues....right?"

Oh my FREAKIN GOD!

Do you understand what a CURVE is??????????

Your fatuous comment -- which is undoubtedly circulating the lefty blogs, since this is the second time in a week I've heard this incredible stupidity -- presupposes that the relationship between taxes and revenue is a straight line.

It's not; it's a curve in the shape of an upside-down U. At zero taxation, tax revenue is zero. At 100% taxation, tax revenue is zero (there's no taxable production). Between those two points, tax revenue rises for a while as the tax rate increases from zero, then peaks, then falls as the tax rate approaches 100%.

And yes, most of us conservatives understand this, because we don't rely on the RNC to do our thinking for us, as y'all do with the DNC; we actually make an attempt to understand economics.

Have we ever considered that the tax rate is already low enough? Yes, albeit briefly, and we've concluded that the tax rate getting low enough to land in the portion of the curve where decreasing the tax rate actually DECREASES tax revenue, will not happen until pigs fly. God LORD, fella, taxes -- including federal, FICA, state, local, sales, property, and other hidden -- consume more than half the average worker's income, taken together. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that doesn't affect spending?????????

Fletch might be able to give me a figure based on actual research, but as a guess, I'd be willing to bet that the federal tax rate at which marginal revenue starts decreasing as the tax rate decreases is close to 10%.

liberalgoodman
lib"good"man alluded for the 89,726,332nd time to David Stockman's disagreement with Reagans' tax policy, a favorite sound bite of the left for more than 2 decades. In using it, he illustrates the left's complete inability to think beyond the slogans fed them by their masters in the DNC.

Lgm, history has long since demonstrated that DAVID STOCKMAN WAS WRONG. Reagan cut taxes dramatically, and he DID attempt to cut spending. His spending cuts, which would have produced a balanced federal budget by 1987 if passed, were pronounced DOA by then House Speaker Tip O'Neill (D, MA). Don't you recall Reagan shutting down the government over the House's inability to pass budget legislation that he could live with? And the deficits produced during the Reagan years matched what the Congress added back to his budgets almost to the penny.

If you're going to reply, lgm, do so in a manner indicating that you're at least aware of the events of history that followed the rhetorical shots constructed contemporaneous to those events. Simply repeating 20-year-old rhetoric leaves you sounding uninformed.

Just a few principles of tax policy
Here are a few suggested tax policy guidelines. These are of my own construction, but garnered from some knowledge of American political history:

1) Every citizen should pay some taxes, even the poorest. Paying taxes is a form of participation in government, a joining of the common stakes of our society.

2) Since taxes should never approach the point at which they financially ruin the taxpayer, the ability to pay should never -- EVER -- be a consideration when fixing tax rates.

3) The purpose of taxation is to raise revenue to cover the costs of governing. Use of taxation for any other purpose -- policy incentives, punitive action, income redistribution -- is oppression.

I'll add this one observation: "taxes on the wealthy" is a con game. Nobody will ever approve taxes on themselves, but very few people consider themselves wealthy. Knowing this, politicians phrase their tax proposals so that everybody believes the tax burden will fall on somebody else, not on them. It's the only way a tax proposal can ever pass. Claiming to "tax the wealthy" and "cut taxes for the middle class" is not about fairness, ability to pay, or compassion. It's nothing more or less than a con artist's diversion. Anybody who buys it as anything other than that is a fool, and not competent to participate in a serious national policy debate.

Avarice?
As greed is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, I see no reason not to tax it. Since I pay through the nose for my minor vices like pipe tobacco, beer and wine, I think the high fliers ought to be taxed heavily for their sins, too. If the taxes are high enough, the corporations might actually re-think their currently idiotic executive compensation practices and start paying decent dividends to shareholders instead of robbing them to line the pockets of a bunch of greedy con artists.

Flat Tax!
We need a flat tax.

That's it!

inkling
"Since taxes should never approach the point at which they financially ruin the taxpayer, the ability to pay should never -- EVER -- be a consideration when fixing tax rates."

Isn't this backwards? If you want to make sure to never ruin someone with taxes, shouldn't you consider their ability to pay? E.g. if you set the rate at 50%, that could obviously be borne more easily by someone making $1 million than by someone making $20K. (By "easily borne", I mean that the tax will definitely not leave the millionaire in rags, but may leave the other guy in rags...I don't mean to say that the millionaire won't miss the extra money.) I think that tax rates are already set without regard to ability to pay, at least to some extent. For example, I pay a lot in taxes. I can't deduct student loan interest. That sucks. But the IRS doesn't care. I'd probably own a home right now if I paid 50% less in taxes than I do now. I consider myself to be getting taxed more than my ability to pay, in large part because I don't think I will actually benefit to the extent I am paying taxes (i.e. by the time I am eligible for medicare and SS, the country will be bankrupt). But obviously, the taxes aren't putting me out on the street. So, in one sense, yeah, I have a greater ability to pay and the government knows that, but on the other hand, the government doesn't care what the heck else I am trying to do that needs that money (e.g. have kids, pay for college, whatever).

Phylo: your response to Fletch
"I understand that a huge tax increases would be a real drag on the economy, but a small increase to the wealthiest 1% is something that this economy can easily absorb. I can gurantee that you won't be able to measure the amount of drag it would be on the economy. And if you can't measure it, how do you know it's really there?"

It is your assertion that it wouldn't be measurable, but past history indicates that it would be measurable, directly in the form of the amount of tax revenues collected. Bush's tax cut on the top marginal rates was significant but not huge, and yet it yielded ENORMOUS results in terms of the tax revenues paid by the top 1% of payers.

Second, I don't trust that it would be a "small increase on the top 1%," if the Congressional Dems have their way, and their history when in power bears out this fear.
*
"The tax cut for the middle class is as likely to appear as it was when Clinton promised one and never delivered."

Phylo: Wow, you're not only an economist you're a fortune teller as well."

No, he is an astute student of history. This is what happens over and over and over when the Dems come to power, and yet we are supposed to believe that THIS time it will be different? Give me a break.

Seriously, a tax cut represents, in symbolic terms, a relinquishing of governmental power. When has the Left EVER demonstrated any serious commitment to relinquishing any power, at any level?

"Can you at least admit that, if there is an equivalent tax cut for the middle class that there would be no drag on the economy?"

No, because the terms are too vague - you would need to define where the boundaries of the "middle class" lie for the sake of this argument. And when you posit the percentage of the tax burden that falls on nearly any definition of "middle class" that doesn't include those earning over, say $100,000 a year (just to pick a number out of a hat) vs. those who come in above that line, you would realize that balancing the one with the other gets awfully darn impossible awfully fast, unless the tax on the "richest Americans" is increased by an infinitesimal amount, and the tax on the "middle class" is taken down to zero.
*
" It wasn't just wealth that created Microsoft, Fletch, it was mostly human creativity. And what about people who work for the government or for non-profits? NOTHING ELSE creates jobs Fletch? NOTHING ELSE?"

Human creativity withour wealth to fund it can accomplish very little in terms of job creation. The wealth is a necessary prerequisite. Had Bill Gates not found backers to fund him, Windows would not exist except as a fun little experiment on some hacker's personal machine.

Government jobs are funded by taking money away from people, who could have otherwise used that money to create jobs. This is a zero-sum transaction. Private sector jobs are created by engaging in transactions which two individuals each exchange something of value, and both feel afterward that they have profited. This is a positive-sum transaction. This is a major difference in kind.
*
"You economists must think that everyone thinks in numbers like you geeks do"

With the exception of Hollywood stars and rock stars and similar creative flukes, those with incomes in the top 1% got there specificallY BY obsessing over numbers the way economists do. That's part of how you do it. Another part is by seeing these inherent relationships between increases or decreases in taxation, and the relative effects on productivity.

In short, nearly every Fortune 500 person alive is part economist. That's just how you get there.
*
"This is sheer sophistry. You're telling me that lowering taxes on the wealthy means that the wealthy pay a higher percentage of taxes?"

That's exactly what he's telling you, because it's exactly true. IRS data proves the point.

Here's how it works, once again: you cut taxes, thus freeing up capital for the "richest 1%" to use; they employ it to make even MORE money, creating more jobs, making themselves wealthier and expanding that famous income gap, and they pay MORE yet in taxes. It's really simple. And it's factual, the data is out there, just go browse the IRS website and you will find the EXACT SAME DATA.

"Maybe we should lower the taxes on the rich to zero, then they would be paying all of our tax burden, right Fletch?"

I will deal with this with FLM's post...
*
"That's because this government has never gotten smaller. It has continually gotten bigger and bigger and bigger."

Yes, but why?

"It's gotten bigger, in part, because our counrty has gotten bigger."

This is silly. It has gotten bigger because it is in the nature of human beings to crave power, and to be corrupted by it. Both parties are prone to this, but it seems that the Dems are ever-so-slightly MORE prone, in that Republicans at least have a real, demonstrable history of cutting taxes - which is a big part of relinquishing power - as well as a history (much smaller) of cutting spending...while Democrats have no history of that whatsoever, OR of cutting spending in any real way.

THAT'S the problem.

"The fact is, we have to start paying down our debt and reducing the deficit sooner or later."

Yes and no. There are reasonable arguments to support funded debt as a viable economic policy, going back all the way to Alexander Hamilton and continuing on up through Alan Greenspan. I won't say I support them or not, because honestly they are over my head at this point.

However, the way to accomplish this is NOT NOT NOT to raise taxes - both because at this point, any tax increase will simply result in decreased revenues, or no effect at all. There is NO WAY to raise taxes that will increase revenues, none. It is hypothetically possible that further tax cuts from this point would ALSO decrease revenues - I doubt it, I say cut 'em and lets see what happens, but I have more than practical thinking behind that - but raising them simply won't do it.

If your priority really IS deficit reduction, then cutting spending is the ONLY way to do that. Period.

Phylo: PS
Actually... see inkling_revival's response to FLM for the bit that I mentioned... he said it so well, I don't think anything would be served by repeating it.

Mencken
I am referring to what people consider a "fair" TAX, with my point being what one person considers fair is not the same as what another person considers fair. I am not referring to anyone's ideas of evidentiary double standards. I apologize for any confusion, but if you care to debate my point not that I've explained it further, feel free. It sounds as if you are making a similar point as I, but on a different issue, so I assume that we actually do have some common ground. By the way, I would have the same comment for those who expect you to play by different rules than they - there is something inherently warped in that thinking.

Socialists
I'm with Grubby, Vic and many more of you who know that the democrats are socialists. If tax rates should travel in any direction, it is downward. When a liberal says "rich" people, they mean you and me, those of us who work and depend on the paycheck we earn.

You guys start taxing any more and we may lose incentive to even get up in the morning and go off to work. I think that is what you want anyway, a total collapse of whatever society we have left. Where will you be when all that happens? As far as I can tell, you like living pretty large yourselves on the capitalist system you hate so much. Put a little more love into your lives and don't resent so much of what you think other people have.

First thing the dems want to do when they get a little power back, power they held too long before, is to raise our taxes. What a surprise.

SizzleLean
My apologies. I could have sworn you were talking about that other thing. ...I agree that "fairness" in taxation is entirely subjective. I suppose it could be argued that fair is whatever most people say is fair, but since the people making the decision are a bunch of crooks, i.e. not "the people", well, forget it.


good luck with either party

Quote:
First of all, a tax hike of a few percentage points on the very wealthy is not going to do anything to the economy. Does anyone seriously think that some guy making 3million a year is going to quite working because he has to pay an extra $20,000 or $30,000?
=====================
Most of them don’t work like you and I. They invest and any reduction in investment means fewer jobs and a worse economy as they move that wealth to tax free securities and pay even less tax total. It is when they have low tax rates that they are willing to take the risks of equity investing that creates jobs and more tax revenues.

Quote:
1. Lowering taxes raises revenues: In 1981, Reagan's first year in office, federal revenues were $599B. In 1983, after his lowering of tax rates (primarily benefitting the wealthy), revenues had shot up to $601B. He then RAISED taxes (primarily affecting the middle-class). This is something you all seem to choose to forget. But by 1988, his last year in office, revenues were up to $909B.
2. Raising taxes lowers revenues: In 1992, Bush's last year, revenues were $1,091B. Clinton raised taxes in 1993 (retroactively), and revenues increased to $1,154B. By 2000, they were up to $2,025B. By 2004, after Junior reduced taxes (again, primarily benefitting the extraordinarily wealth), revenues had declined to $1,880B.
Are these facts, as reported by OMB (check them out here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/pdf/hist.pdf
at all consistent with your arguments?
Don’t forget the about 2 year lag factor before tax policy actually sets in and reveals what it will do.

Tax increases cause short term tax revenue increases. Tax cuts usually cause short term tax revenue loss. You have to look at a stable tax policy like Ireland had for 20 years to see what it does. There they cut their corporate income tax 30pts below ours and they national debt of 120% of GDP has dropped to 8 mo. Tax revenue. The tax rate on workers was left at 20% but, there wages went up 300% to our 79% during that period due to the demand for labor by all the manufacturing pouring in from here and other places. There unemployment rate dropped from 15% to 4.2% but they resisted a big inflow of immigrants to keep wages low and let wages rise making workers better off. They now make about 50 cents an hour more than our ave. mfg wage and jobs are still going there from here for the tax benefit. To make an after tax profit of $50,000 here, we have to mark it up $87,000 while they only have to mark it up $57,000 or $30,000 less to have the same after tax profit of $50,000

Thus, there tax revenues soared when they cut their tax on business (they also cut it on investment income from capital gain, but still higher than ours, 20%).

Tax cuts aren’t the answer if they are done wrong. Cut tax on investment to where that is productive, but cut it most on business income to encourage the growth that creates jobs. Then, don’t immigrate 100 million as they are about to do, which keeps wages down, and let demand for labor increase wages as Ireland did.

Neither party is leading this nation in the right direction. The bulk of spending entitlement spending tied to COLA increases and that won’t change because they are mandatory increases.
Department of Health and Human Services $697 Billion 60% Growth since 2001
Department of the Treasury $495,Billion 27.8 % Growth since 2001
Social Security Administration $625 Billion 32.3 % Growth since 2001
$261 billion growth
$107 billion growth
$152 billion growth
Just those three departments account for over $500 billion and that can’t be reduced but will continue to grow. Those three departments are over $1.8 trillion of a $2.8 trillion budget and that means, including defense the other 75 or so departments are running on about ½ of what those three departments consume. (Treasury has the $440 billion interest on debt in it) Show me where we are going to get meaningful cuts in spending. Defense?

That was $491 billion so if you cut a $180 billion and return to about the 2001 level, you won’t even match the spending increase COLA is going to add in the next budget. Also with that current level of $491 billion, the rest of government is running on about $500 billion including the bulk of the Pork projects. Again, COLA increases will be more than any cuts there. Without reform of entitlements we will continue to grow our debt. If you raise taxes you will take the nation with the 2nd highest tax on business totally out of competition and jobs will continue to leave in the manufacturing and any service sector that can be done overseas.

Neither party is going to return to the Constitutional principles of returning these issues to the States where they will be solved better and done for less tax money. We pay about 35% in all our U.S. purchases for hidden tax and compliance costs. That is why Asia is doing so well. Our consumers have no loyalty to anything but price and they aren’t going to pay those hidden taxes and compliance costs when they can buy foreign.

Regarding CEO’s outsourcing. How do you propose to keep them here? The consumers aren’t going to pay their prices. If they don’t leave they have to close because the consumers will drive them out of business buying the goods their foreign competition make. Put tariffs on? Yeah right. Like the consumers are going to go for that. Tariffs would raise the prices since there are no U.S. manufacturers to fill the void on most products and the next election those politicians would be gone.

Good luck with either party. You are going to need it.

Miscellaneous tax thoughts
Think about some facts on taxes:
1) Social engineering has been tried with the income tax since the early sixties. Did it accomplish anything? So social engineering (rich getting poorer, poor getting richer) are bogus arguments.
2) The deficit reduction which Clinton gets credit for came due to several reasons:
a) Capital gains were reduced to a more reasonable level
b) The DOD was reduced to give "the peace dividend"
c) The high tech bubble was in full roar
d) Republicans were fighting people such as Tom Daschle over his spending increases. Remember what happened when Daschle took over the Senate. He insisted on a 7+ percent increase in non-military budget.
3) Believers in higher taxes, if they win the lottery, will be taxed at the higher level. You may be like Bill Clinton (who won the publications lottery with his book) and think you don't pay enough taxes, but I doubt it.
4) One group does not pay their "fair share". Count Ted Kennedy, John and Mrs. Kerry, Harry Reid, and others of the millionaires club. They don't generally pay their fair share, because their income is protected by dodges.

Anyone who wants to "soak the rich" ought to be in favor of the Fair Tax, where your taxes will be in what you spend, not what you earn. All earners get a rebate of $X per year, so that the more you spend, the more you pay in taxes. This also encourages savings.

Fletch and the Clinton budget
Fletch, that's not what happened. Clinton was elected promising to balance the budget and worked toward that goal from day one. From wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton

"In August of 1993, Clinton signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which passed Congress without a single Republican vote. It raised taxes on the wealthiest 1.2% of taxpayers, while cutting taxes on 15 million low-income families and making tax cuts available to 90 percent of small businesses.[12] Additionally, it mandated that the budget be balanced over a number of years, and the implementation of spending restraints."

No, the budget was not balanced in that year, but the deficit was lower. It went down every Clinton year until it was balanced in 1999. From the State of the Union speach that year: "For the first time in three decades, the budget is balanced. From a deficit of $290 billion in 1992, we had a surplus of $70 billion last year AND NOW We are on course for budget surpluses for the next 25 years."

In other words, Clinton worked toward a balanced budget from day one. Succeeded in achieving it, and had policies in place that would have kept it balanced for the next quarter century. What changed in 2000 wasn't congress, it was the President. Suddenly the congress that you say balanced the budget under Clinton was unable to balance it under Bush. That's not the most likely explination.

Ideology In The Laffer Curve

First of all, I offer varying proportions of heartfelt thanks and an invitation to go screw yourself to everyone here who explained to me the concept of the Laffer Curve, depending on how nice or nasty you were in explaining it.

Wikipedia tells me that Dr. Laffer himself said that the total revenues collected at a 100% rate of taxation would be zero, because people would be so driven to change their behavior that there would be no earnings available to be taxed.
(I guess this means that the Laffer concept only applies to taxes on earnings and other income, I don't see how it would apply to a tax on consumption. (Gee, I sound like I know what I'm talking about, don't I? (I don't, really.)))

It seems to me that, if all other factors were held constant, the maximum point of the curve would be a function of the quality of what the Government did with the Tax Revenue.

Republican Capitalists may wish to thoroughly wrap their skulls in duct tape before reading further, but imagine if you can a society and civilization in which the government flawlessly provided ALL of life's necessities and ALL of the happiness that it was possible to have and ALL of the satisfactions and rewards of one's highest aspirations, and was able to keep increasing all these rewards in direct proportion to each individual's contribution to society. Mightn't that society's Laffer Curve indeed be a straight line segment, slope=1, max at taxrate=100% ??

Unless of course, the citizens refused to paricipate in this society because their ideology held that Socialism was evil.

I freely grant that the only society I know of that works like this is the United Federation of Planets. None the less, I hold the above little thought experiment to be of real value. If you seek the high point of this Laffer curve only in terms of how much crap the people will tolerate from the money-grubbing wasteful do-nothing-worthwhile government, then you still have some ideology to lose.

FLM
LOL!

"Republican Capitalists may wish to thoroughly wrap their skulls in duct tape before reading further, but imagine if you can..."

Whatever your intellectual deficits may be, you have a genuine wit and I appreciate you for that. I laughed my a$$ off reading that - or would have, if waking up my dearest beloved weren't a danger. But that was good stuff, thank you.

Ditto, the "United Federation of Planets."

And yes, I would have to say that, if your little thought experiment were in fact reality, then the graph you described would potentially be valid. I qualify because it's late and I've had wine.

But it's an irrelevancy on a level far beyond any star-struck college student who, having just read Marx for the first time, whispers in wide-eyed, cannabis-fueled idealism, "If Communism COULD be made to work... Wowwwww..."

"If you seek the high point of this Laffer curve only in terms of how much crap the people will tolerate from the money-grubbing wasteful do-nothing-worthwhile government, then you still have some ideology to lose."

There is a point you are missing. It is not just a question of the efficacy of government, but also of the very real fact that taxation is, by its very nature, legally-permissible armed robbery. It is robbery to which we all (or most) agree as a part of the social contract, but that doesn't make it robbery any less. Government extracts taxes at the point of a gun.

The corollary to this is that government attracts, also by its very nature, people who are attracted to Power for its own sake. And we have yet, in the entirety of human history, to see a counter-example to Lord Acton's formulation about Power and Absolute Power.

The final corollary to this is the nature of armed robbery: a financial transaction in which one person wins everything, the other person wins nothing. Contrast this with private, market transactions, the nature of which is this: both participants got the best side of the deal, and if a third party disagrees it's none of their da*n business.

Fletch: a question
I recall dimly and vaguely having heard at one point that none of the supposed budget surpluses of the Clinton years were actual, that they were always projected surpluses that would take place post-2000, assuming current trends, yada yada.

Can you shed any light on this, or did I just make this up in my own little brain one night after too much wine? None of your posts mention this at all, so I wonder if I am not just far more creative than I ever suspected...

Fletch: a question and answer
What is interesting is that while Clinton balanced the budget for two years, the National Debt went up each year of his tenure. Why did that happen if there was a surplus?

Overspending
The Crawfish writes: Wednesday, January, 10, 2007 7:44 AM
FLM
Yes, the national debt has increased greatly. This is not because the government isn't raising enough tax revenue, but rather because the federal government uses so much money in unConstitutional ways. If the limits that the Constitution places upon government spending were actually enforced, the current budget would be slashed by at least 30%. Both parties are to blame for this, but the majority of the unConstitutional spending is in the form of liberal entitlement programs (welfare, medicare, medicaid, medical care for non-drybacks, federal housing projects, etc) and Social Insecurity.


Don't forget corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks, incentives, government spending, NASA manned projects to nowhere, porkbarrel in Republican districts. There is more than enough blame to go around for both parties.

SOCIALISM IS WRONG ANYTIME!!!!!!
The founders of our country wanted a democratic republic. If they wanted socialism, they would have stated so. Nowhere in our founders documents does it say that fed income tax should be taken, LET ALONE PUNISHING ONE GROUP MORE THAN THE ANOTHER FOR THE SAKE OF REAPPORTIONMENT OF WEALTH.

Anytime we let our goverment exercise this non-constitional socialist step, we lose our country a little more. If anything, history should be our guide. Tax rates on the wealthy were nearly 90% in Carter's days and our economy sucked.

When you punish success, you breed mediocrity.

Republican, Democrat, its all the same
oscar77 writes: Wednesday, January, 10, 2007 10:40 AM
Why should we believe it?
As a disgruntled Republican who voted every time for Republicans:

Republicans had control of both Houses of Congress since 1994, and had the Presidency since 2000. There was ABSOLUTELY NO ACTION on simplifying the tax code.

No proposals.
No submitted legislation.

Nothing.

Why should I believe that this time it will be different?
*************************************
Quoted for truth.

Liberalgoodman & Fletch
Fletch, my thanks. I had to run and do some real life stuff away from the computer. I think you handled the "paygo" question/mythology very well. Thanks for having my back. I'll add one thing. There are recordings of Clinton saying (at various times) that the budget could be balanced in 5, 12, 8, 10 4, 7,...you get my point. He had no concrete plan and was probably as surprised as anyone when it did balance. I will give him credit for allowing the Capital Gains tax cut which played a major role in added revenues to the Treasury.

Fletch
You punted him through the uprights.

Good job pointing that Socialism was UNKNOWN in 1776. Funny how libcoms miss that.

Aww C'mon, Fergus!!

I'm glad to give you something to laugh about, but I have to take issue with:

"There is a point you are missing. It is not just a question of the efficacy of government, but also of the very real fact that taxation is, by its very nature, legally-permissible armed robbery."

Cmon Fergus, isn't that just a little bit harsh? I pay money to the Government, and sure I don't like it all that much, but I DO get stuff from the Government in return. I mean, it's true that if I don't like what I get from the Government I can't go to the other Government across the street and pay my taxes there, but that's not the deliberate fault of the Government. Governments are inevitably much bigger and more unwieldy than department stores. However wasteful and incompetent the Government may be, it DOES provide services to the citizenry and it can't do that without spending money. I can't call it Robbery when we pay the taxes that make that possible.

Now, I don't mean these as fighting words, (especially since you may be the only person in the audience who appreciates my material), but isn't that assertion of yours one of those ideological value judgements, and not a fact? (Maybe even just a little bit not a fact?)


EagleOne, Gunny, Fletch

"You punted him through the uprights" (Referring to Donaldd)

I guess (though football purists may cringe (or beat you up) since punts should stay out of the endzone), but you guys do realize that you also forgot to let go of the ball, right?

Socialism being an unknown concept back then, they weren't against it either.

Indeed, I suspect that the powers that were would have taken it on a case-by-case basis. Blessedly unstuck to either the "Redblooded-Independent-AllAmerican-Capitalist" or the "Sniveling-Mediocracy-Engendering-Socialist" tarbabies, they would have done some things via the government, and left other things to the private sector, depending on the nature of the task and what would be the best way to do it.




FLM
"'There is a point you are missing. It is not just a question of the efficacy of government, but also of the very real fact that taxation is, by its very nature, legally-permissible armed robbery.'

Cmon Fergus, isn't that just a little bit harsh?"

Yes, it is. It's very harsh. That doesn't mean, however, that it is wrong.

"I pay money to the Government"

And what would happen if you refused to pay money to the Government?

Our legal system is constructed on a few philosophical pillars: the rights to life, liberty, and property. Nearlt every crime on the books consists of a violation of one of those principles.

Theft, obvious, violates the right to one's property; when a thief takes from us, he is, in effect, saying "you do not have the right to what you own." That is what makes it a crime.

When government takes our property in taxes, and gives us no choice in the matter, government says, "you do not have the right to what you own; WE do."

Tell me this: if Government has the right to take SOME of what I own, what philosophical obstacle is there to Government taking ALL that I own, if it chooses? The difference between some and all is merely a matter of degree.

"sure I don't like it all that much, but I DO get stuff from the Government in return. I mean, it's true that if I don't like what I get from the Government I can't go to the other Government across the street and pay my taxes there"

Nor can you choose not to pay taxes to any government, and eschew any of the things that government has to offer.

"Governments are inevitably much bigger and more unwieldy than department stores."

No. Only insofar as we allow them to get that way. Absent Leftist politics of compassion, one can easily imagine a government which only provided those things which the individual CANNOT provide for him or herself: a stable currency, laws and courts which are binding upon all, and so on. The bare-bones, the simple st

However wasteful and incompetent the Government may be, it DOES provide services to the citizenry and it can't do that without spending money. I can't call it Robbery when we pay the taxes that make that possible.

"isn't that assertion of yours one of those ideological value judgements, and not a fact?"

You are right, I mis-spoke in my last post. Of course it's not a fact. Facts are objective things upon which there can be no reasonable disagreement, things like
- George W. Bush is our president
- The sun is a star
- Decapitation kills
- Dogs are smarter than cats

and so on. My argument is entirely a matter of opinion, a philosophical point, an ideological theory. That doesn't make it wrong, per se. It just means I can'te expect that everyone sees things as I do. I accept that. But it seems to me that, at the very least, there is a strong argument to be made, one which requires a considerable evasion of the mind to disagree with.

YMMV, of course.

Fletch Re 'AU Contraire'

I'm not a student of history, and perhaps you're aware of other writings that lead you to interpret what you've written above the way that you do.

All I have with me is Mr. Occam's razor. I understand the quotes you've presented above as being against the bad things that governmenst were ACTUALLY DOING back then, like oppressive taxation, forced impressment into the military, and all the other reasons we rebelled. (AFAIK, the British Crown never attempted to impose universal health care, did it?)

In fact, I think you could make a case that the founding father's were the SOcialists of their day, since they offered free education for all.

re. how much tax is reasonable
Even God only asks for 10%! :)

FLM
Your response to Fletch is a non sequitur. No, of course, they never tried to offer universal health care, but the notion of controlling prices of items to prevent "unfairness" is an idea with a long pedigree, all the way to the Emperor Diocletian and beyond.

In a more relevant example, William Pitt the Elder, Prime Minister of England, tried to employ price controls in the British Empire, always to ill effect.

The core idea of Socialism - and of its slightly tamer cousin, modern Liberalism - is that some people know better than others what is best for everyone, and that governmental power can be used to effect these changes, for the good of all. The position of classical Liberalism is that price-coordinated market economies will ALWAYS know better than controlled or planned economies, and the statistics invariably bear this out.

So no, the Founding Fathers would have found the idea of Socialism absolutely loathesome, both in its hubris and in its absolute antithesis to the notion of liberty.

To Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
The founding fathers never offered free eduction to every one. Free education came about as a State and local issue. In some cases not until the 1900's did free public education come about. The federal government did no start sticking their noses in education until the 1950's.

Sales Taxes
Sales taxes are the most regressive taxes. The more money you have, the lower percentage of your income is spent in the local economy. If you have money over basic living expenses, you can spend it outside the country, you can invest it anywhere, you can buy things like boats or artwork from people who don't necessarily play tax collector. As a business person, collecting and remitting sales taxes (I'm in California) is a lot of unpaid time and effort. It's not just the bookkeeping; I've been through sales tax audits, and the California Board of Equalization, that runs the sales tax, is even nastier than the IRS, and I do not mess around with them. Also, the lure of sales tax money also biases zoning and land use decisions toward activities that generate sales taxes--Wal-Marts over soccer fields, for example.
Sales taxes spur an underground economy. I've had customers ask for fake invoices with pricing lowered to lower taxes paid. And the guys selling stuff out of their trucks aren't doing sales tax. In short, sales tax also has unintended consequences. The main reason that tax consequences are not intuitive is that taxes change behavior, sometimes in unexpented ways.

Deception
Michael Medved is a schill for George W. Bush and fulfilling his fathers vision of the New World Order. Debasing the currency is a necessary step. Where does incessant borrow and spend lead if not to bankruptcy? Medved will not address that point. Medved is with the GWB Crew that hijacked the republican party. This bunch is nothing but traitors to American soveriegnty.

Response to Vic & Fergus
Vic Writes:
"The founding fathers never offered free eduction to every one. "

I had always been taught that they did. It's true that the present K-12 school system did not start up in Revolutionary Times, but as even the "Land Ordinance of 1785" set aside a portion of land in then-unincorporated townships for use in education. That State & Local governments fund education IS a modern success of Socialism in this Country.

Fergus Writes:
"The core idea of Socialism .... is that some people know better than others what is best for everyone, and that governmental power can be used to effect these changes, for the good of all."

Fergus, this statement is true, but it's misleading because it does not distinguish between different forms of government. To the extent that we have a Government Of The People, By The People, and For The People, Socialism merely holds that ALL the people know better than SOME of the people what is best.

And beyond that, most politicians (including thank God most of the ones who've run the country) are too pragmatic to let pure Socialist or Free-Market-Capitalist ideologies rule their thinking.

Every law passed, every service or benefit offered by the Government IS SOCIALISM, just as much as, well, any OTHER such law, service or benefit. Some just make much more obvious sense than others. You can make a lot of really STUPID arguments against things that the Government does just by calling it Socialism. ex "Why should I pay taxes for Federal Highways?? I don't drive on most of those roads!! That's SOCIALISM, dagnabbit!!"

Thank heavens most people don't think that way, and we therefore have a pretty uniform system of highways and roads in this country, and we drive on the same side of the street everyplace in this country.

It's easy to find examples of things that he Government should NOT control, too. Imagine if only the Government were allowed to make clothing for people!!

I don't think all the Free-Market Advocates here in TH realize the extent to which even they pragmatically accept that some things are best left to the Government to do, and others are best left to the people. Alot of the argument is about specific tasks (ex Healthcare and Social Security).

just a test
[QUOTE]Captain Quiet wrote:
Holy crap that funny.[/QUOTE]
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