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Wednesday, July 26, 2006
Michael Medved :: Townhall.com Columnist
Does Israel have a right to exist? Does the U.S.
by Michael Medved
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It should come as no surprise that some of the same angry leftists who stridently deny Israel’s “right to exist” similarly challenge the claims to nationhood of the United States of America.

After all, the two allied and embattled democracies achieved independence in the same way – the patient settlement of largely desolate and under-populated land, the building of a new civilization virtually from scratch, and a long, bloody fight against determined, sometimes implacable opposition.

In fact, Israel boasts a far stronger “right to exist” than does its American counterpart (or many other nations) because of its ancient claim to the disputed land, and long-standing endorsement by international organizations.

In order to place these realities in proper perspective, it’s first necessary to reject some thirty years of wildly irresponsible anti-Israel propaganda. First of all, it’s not true in any sense that the modern Jewish State ever supplanted or destroyed an existing nation of “Palestine.” From the time of definitive destruction of the ancient Jewish commonwealth in 70 A.D., the land that comprises the current State of Israel never enjoyed independent existence but, rather, passed back and forth among competing world empires—Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader, Mamaluke, Ottoman and British. Over the course of more than 1,800 years, no nation with the name “Palestine” appeared on any maps, anywhere. The distinguished Arab-American historian Philip Hitti, professor at Princeton University, testified to the Anglo American Committee in 1946: ‘There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in 1867, shortly before the commencement of modern Jewish resettlement, and described it as “a desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds—a silent, mournful expanse… A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action.” According to the careful population figures of the Ottoman Empire, in 1882 (at the very beginning of the modern, organized Jewish immigration back to the ancestral home), the total population of land between the Jordan and the Sea was less than 250,000 – in an area that today supports ten million people, Israelis and Palestinians.

The resettlement of the sparsely populated Holy Land by the descendants of its ancient inhabitants, however, did not take place solely in the modern era. Throughout Jewish history, waves of returnees came back to the sacred soil of their ancestors. In the 8th and 9th centuries, A.D., Jewish immigrants re-established major communities in Jerusalem and Tiberias; by the 11th Century, they had built new communities in Jaffa, Ashkelon, Caesarea and Rafah. In the 16th Century, more Jewish immigrants developed the famous center of mysticism in Safed and beginning in the 1700’s religious scholars and pilgrims intensely repopulated Jerusalem.

The Jewish connection to Israel, in other words, remained impassioned and unbroken for some three thousand years, while the British connection with North American began only in 1607 (with Jamestown) and 1620 (with the Pilgrims at Plymouth). No European settlers to the New World claimed an ancient connection to the land they discovered, developed, and gradually populated. Moreover, the Native Americans who preceded them came to the Western Hemisphere across the land bridge from Asia at the very latest some 13,000 years before the White Men arrived, while the Arabs appeared in Israel for the first time in the 7th Century.

If opponents of the modern Jewish State argue that Israelis have no meaningful claim on the land they occupy then on what basis do today’s Americans have a stake in the vast continent once inhabited by millions of members of hundreds of Indian tribes?

Moreover, the Jewish title to the land of Israel received long-standing recognition from international organizations that didn’t even exist at the time of American independence. On July 24, 1922, the 52 governments of the League of Nations formally recognized and endorsed the British Balfour Declaration calling for “reconstituting….a national home for the Jewish people” in the land with which that people enjoyed “historical connections.” Twenty-five years later, the United Nations (successor body to the League of Nations) validated this title with the partition plan, dividing the British Mandate in the area into two states—one Jewish, one Arab. The Arab leadership violently rejected that solution, but after Israel’s bloody war for Independence the UN recognized Israel as a full member state in 1949.

Unlike Israel, the United States won no international recognition prior to the commencement of our own war for Independence; we only won that acknowledgment after the courage and sacrifice of the patriots who waged our Revolutionary struggle. In the end, an estimated 25,000 Americans died in the war—nearly 1% of the Colonial population at the time. In a haunting similarity, Israel lost 6,373 fighters in its War of Independence—nearly 1% of the Jewish population of nation at the time. In the case of the American struggle, final victory only became possible through the direct intervention of France, and the participation (at the climactic battle of Yorktown) of a French fleet and army of some 20,000. In the case of Israel, foreign assistance remained strictly limited (the US imposed an arms embargo on Israel and the rest of the Middle East in 1947) and no foreign armies of any kind ever fought alongside the beleaguered Israelis.

In other words, the founders of the modern Jewish State built their nation on the same basis as the founders of the United States—with generations of building, toil, business development, land reclamation, settlement, and sacrifice in battle. Tel Aviv – by far the largest city in today’s Israel, and the nation’s financial center– was founded in 1909 and built from nothing, mostly on reclaimed sand dunes. In Jerusalem, Israel’s capital and second largest city, some two-thirds of the population lives in new neighborhoods built on empty land after Jewish immigrants began moving outside the Old City walls in the nineteenth century. Apparently, those who make the idiotic (but occasionally well-meaning) suggestion that the Jews of Israel should save the world some trouble and relocate in Florida, or Australia, or the moon, remain unaware of this history. The idea that literally millions of people would uproot their homes -- along with their businesses, parks, universities, museums, freeways and so forth – makes no more sense than expecting residents of New York or Los Angeles to dismantle and abandon the cities that they (and their ancestors) built.

Of course, those who suggest that Israelis should simply move their country somewhere else don’t always mean well—as evidenced by Iran’s demented president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. His mad obsession with transplanting all Jews from the Middle East to Europe (he recently wrote a public letter to the Chancellor of Germany with that plan in mind) reflects one of the most pernicious big lies of Islamist propaganda: the contention that Israel was an alien intrusion “imposed” on the Palestinian people to compensate Jews for the Holocaust (which may never have happened anyway). Of course, this argument ignores the fact that the League of Nations endorsed the idea of a Jewish State in 1922—11 years before Hitler even came to power! It also provides no explanation for the fact that the British Empire, which supposedly sponsored Israel as a refuge for allegedly persecuted Jews, actually blocked and outlawed settlement in the Middle East of all Jewish refugees from Nazi persecution both during the Holocaust years, and in the period immediately following the war. Most important of all, more than 700,000 Jews arrived in Israel as refugees from Islamic countries of North Africa and the Middle East and outnumbered all immigrants fleeing Hitlerism by a ratio of more than two to one. Ironically, one of these “Oriental Jews” who fled to the Jewish State from the Near East is the current President of Israel, Moshe Katzav—who was born in Ahmadinejad’s Iran, not Germany or Poland. Just as the population of the United States is made up of people whose forebears came from every corner of the globe—from Africa and Asia and Latin America as well as Europe—so too Israel has been populated by immigrants of all imaginable shades of skin color, from more than 80 nations (including a major recent influx from Ethiopia) on six continents. In neither case does the slogan “Go Back to Europe Where You Came From” make even the most superficial sort of sense.

For those who instinctively resist any comparison of Israel’s “right to exist” with that of the United States, the crucial difference must be one of longevity: America has now enjoyed 230 years of prosperous independence, while Israel has yet to reach its sixtieth birthday. Yet other nations (Slovakia? Turkmenistan? Namibia?) have come into being far more recently than Israel, without endless public challenges to their legitimacy. Montenegro, for instance, just joined the family of nations a few months ago—despite the fact that more that 45% of the citizens of the new country voted against its independence.

So if the long-standing, successful functioning of the American Republic provides the main basis for greater acceptance of our national existence, it might be more useful to analogize Israel today and the United States some 60 years after our own beginnings –say, in the year 1836, at the height of the Jacksonian Era, when the admiring French visitor Alexis de Tocqueville toured the young Republic in eloquent amazement. Had America earned a “right to exist” by 1836? Countless Indian wars to secure the lands of the Great Plains and the West still lay in our nation’s future, as did a spectacularly successful war against Mexico which brought about a vast expansion of American territory (into Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California and more)--- sort of the U.S. equivalent of Israel’s Six Day War of 1967.

Except for the fact that Israel has already given back most of the land it gained in that conflict – returning all of Sinai and Gaza to Arab adversaries, with the current Israeli government committed to still further (and very significant) concessions in the West Bank. These compromises (and potential compromises) reflect a fact that nearly all Jews understand, but that most Americans want to deny: that history is frequently, even generally, unfair. Whatever Israel’s claims to legitimacy – no matter how ancient the connection with the land, or how definitive the recognition by international law and putative world governments – the nation exists only because of the ability and willingness of its people (past, present and future) to defend it against ruthless enemies. By the same token, it might be pleasant to assume that America remains secure and safe because a grateful world appreciates what our nation has done to introduce the concept of liberty to peoples around the world, or to save humanity from Hitlerism, Stalinism and now, Islamo-Nazism. But with unreasoning, fanatical anti-Americanism on the rise nearly everywhere, more citizens have come to realize that we survive on the same basis Israel survives: through determination, through strength of character and (not least) through military power.

Like Israel, the United States isn’t a nation that grew up organically in one small corner of the earth, combining people who already spoke the same language and looked the same and shared common cultures. Both nations drew a dazzling array of dreamers and visionaries and crazies from around the world who made the choice to embrace the values and plans of the pioneers (“Halutzim,” in Hebrew). Of course, these national origins (involving acts of will, rather than accidents of birth) mean that Israel and America can’t ever be as perfect, and blameless, and pure in our turbulent histories as, say, our old world counterparts like France, say, or Spain, or Belgium. But as long as people in Tulsa and Tel Aviv, Jefferson City and Jerusalem, remain ready to sacrifice and even die for the still stirring visions of the founders, the two dynamic Republics will continue to exist – regardless of the world’s acceptance of their “right” to do so.

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About The Author
Michael Medved's daily syndicated radio talk show reaches one of the largest national audiences every weekday between 3 and 6 PM, Eastern Time. Michael Medved is the author of eleven books, including the bestsellers What Really Happened to the Class of '65?, Hollywood vs. America, Right Turns and, most recently, The Ten Big Lies About America.
 
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We must look at Islamic Deception
Mohammed the Pedophile Prophet is notorious for his statement that "War is Deception". Mo was a brilliant criminal mastermind who understood the miscreant psychology of the Bedouin raiders he relied on quite well and knew that many Arabs are naturally dishonest. The murderous band of raiders that Mo relied on to murder and conquer in the name of his new Ideology of Terror responded well to an invitation to lie in the name of power, sex and money since, like many Arabs, they were born liars.

We shall delve deeper into the criminal genius of the Mass Murderer and Demon who is known as Mohammed - Holy Prophet of Islam:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"

YOU CAN LIE WHEN IT BECOMES CONVENIENT!

Koran 9:3 "Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations."

Mo can abrogate any promise or oath (and did) when shows a profit.

Koran 66:1 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

Allah the Talking Rock God has already sanctioned Muslim lies.

Bukhari:V4B52N268 "Allah's Apostle said, 'War is deceit.'"

This verse is NOTORIOUS in WORLD HISTORY.

Koran 4:142 "Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them."

Allah, a "God" will strike back by deceiving men - got that? A 'GOD' WHO LIES - WHO IS THE FATHER OF ALL LIES?

Bukhari:V7B71N661 "Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done."

Mo imagined a lot of things - and magic in fact plays an important role in Islam today as it did during the 7th century. Though Muslims assert that Islam is "Monotheistic" it incorporates many elements of paganism, including worship of demons and the use of magic spells (this known in Dar al Islam as 'modern medicine')

Bukhari:V6B60N8 "Umar said, 'Our best Koran reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah's Apostle himself said, "Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one."

Abrogation ABROGATES ISLAM ITSELF! Even if the litterateur/theologian accepts the oxymoronic notion that GOD ALWAYS CHANGES HIS MIND - WHICH OPINION IS THEN CORRECT? I.E. When one verse FORBIDS MURDER but another CONDONES AND IN FACT PRAISES IT - WHICH VERSE IS CORRECT? Islamic "Scholars" 1 never can supply a satisfactory answer to this endless enigma.

Koran 33:11 "In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: 'Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us."

Allah is a lovely Talking Rock God - is he not? Note once again that Allah has promised to lie - this is a 'God"?

Koran 33:14 "Say: Flight will not avail you if you flee from death, killing, or slaughter. In that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little while. Say, 'Who will screen you, saving you from Allah if he intends to harm and injure you?'"

THE MUSLIMS WILL FIND AND KILL YOU! NOWHERE TO RUN - NOWHERE TO HIDE - YOU WILL LIVE IN TERROR!

Koran 33:21 "You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow."

DECEPTION IS THIS BEAUTIFUL PATTERN - see dummy?

Koran 74:31 "We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, 'What does the Lord intend by this?' The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind."

The Angels of Islam GUARD THE FIRES OF HELL - some ANGELS!

Koran 74:52 "Each one of them wants to be given scrolls of revelation spread out! No! By no means! Nay, this is an admonishment. Let them keep it in remembrance! But they will not heed unless the Lord wants them to. He is the fountain of fear."

TERROR IS THE FOUNDATION OF ISLAM - this is critical to understanding Islam. While God/Jehovah/Yaweh is pure Love - ALLAH IS TOTAL FEAR - TERROR!

Bukhari:V2B24N555 "I heard the Prophet say, 'Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.'"

Allah the Talking Rock God HATES PEOPLE - rather odd for a "God" who is 'Kind. Merciful and Benevolent" no? Allah hates no one since Allah is a rock - THE PEDOPHILE PROPHET MOHAMMED HATES THE WORLD! (we shall ignore the poor grammar for now)

Koran 92:8 "We will make smooth for him the path to misery."

GEE THANKS DUDE! You're gonna make my misery smooth - HOW CONSIDERATE OF YOU that's just what I always wanted!

Ishaq:519 "Hajjaj said to the Apostle, 'I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.' Having got Muhammad's permission, he said, 'I must tell lies.' The Apostle said, 'Tell them.'"

WAR IS DECEPTION - Jewish and Christian children are taught "Thou Shall not Lie" - Muslims are TAUGHT TO LIE!

Koran 47:24 "Do they not understand the Koran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks preventing them from understanding."

HONEST PEOPLE WITH INTEGRITY CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE KORAN AT ALL.

Israel and the Arabs
* Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can make claim to the following:
*
* Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
*
* Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people - as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.
*
* In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world.
*
* In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).
*
* Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US. oside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

* Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
*
* Wth an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16s, Israel has the largest fleet of the aircraft outside of
* the US.
*
* Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.
* On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech start-ups.
*
* Israel has the largest raptor migration in the world, with hundreds of thousands of African birds
* of prey crossing as they fan out into Asia.
*
* Twenty-four percent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees - ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland - and 12 percent hold advanced degrees.
*
* Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.
*
* In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia to
* safety in Israel.
*
* When Gold Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second
* elected female leader in modern times.
*
* When the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day - and saved three victims from the rubble.
*
* Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship - and the highest rate among
* women and among people over 55 - in the world.
*
* Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants
* come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.
*
* **Israel was the first nation in the world to
* adopt the Kimberly process, an international
* standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict
* free."
*
* Israel designed
* the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. U.S. officials now look to Israel for
* advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
*
* Israel's Maccabi basketball team won the European championships in 2001.
*
* Israeli tennis player Anna Smashnova is the 15th ranked female player in the world.
*
* Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers was produced by Haim Saban, an Israeli whose family fled persecution in Egypt.
*
* In 1991, during the Gulf War, the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra played a concert wearing
* gas masks as scud missiles fired by Saddam Hussein fell on Tel Aviv.
*
* Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.
*
* Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its
* number of trees.
*
* Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.
*
* Israel has two official languages: Hebrew and Arabic.
*
* Medicine
* Israeli scientists developed the first fully
* computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic
* instrumentation for breast cancer.
* An Israeli company developed a computerized system
* for ensuring proper administration of medications,
* thus removing human error from medical treatment.
* Every year in U.S. hospitals 7,000 patients die
* from treatment mistakes.
*
* Israel's Givun imaging developed the first
* ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a
* pill. Used the view the small intestine from the
* inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer
* and digestive disorders.
*
* Researchers in Israel developed a new device that
* directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation
* with the potential to save lives among those with
* congestive heart failure. The new device is
* synchronized with the heart's mechanical
* operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.


* Technology
* With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of
* hi-tech companies in the world (apart from the Silicon Valley).
* In response to serious water shortages, Israeli engineers and agriculturalists developed a
* revolutionary drip irrigation system to minimize the amount of water used to grow crops.
* Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.
*
* Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per
* 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U.S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category
* as well.
*
* The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola, which has its largest development center
* in Israel.
*
* Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel.
*
* The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
*
* Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
*
* Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.
*
* The technology for AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.
* A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a high-intensity,
* ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct - all
* without damaging surroundings skin or tissue.
*
* An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully
* functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert.
*
* The first PC anti-virus software was developed in Israel in 1979.


Now let's look at the Arab Alley:


* Al-Alam, with nearly 1/5th of the world's population can make claim to the following:
*
* The Arab Basement has the LOWEST ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
*
* Arab countries produce fewer scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 1 per 100,000,000 people - as well as the lowest per capita rates of patents filed. (but they do publish some very funny comic books - known as "Newspapers")
*
* In proportion to its population, the Middle East has the smallest number of startup companies in the world.
*
* In absolute terms, Arab nations have the smallest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except Northern Siberia (500 companies specializing in camel manure and fertilizer).
*
* Al-Alam is ranked #2 in the world for lack of venture capital funds right behind the South Pole.
*
* Outside of Greenland, Somalia has the smallest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

* Arab Countries have the lowest average living standards in Asia. The per capita income in 2000 was under $20,00 exceeding only that of Sub-Saharan Africa.
*
* With an air line fleet of over 150 old Junks, Saudi Arabia has the funniest fleet of aircraft outside of Russia.
*
* The United Arab Emirate's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.
*
* On a per capita basis, Arab Countries have no biotech start-ups.
*
* Less than 1 Percent of the Arab workforce holds university degrees - ranking second lowest in the world, after Easter Island - and none hold advanced degrees. (although many do have worthless pieces of paper in "Islamic Studies")
*
* Arab nations are some of the only genuine medieval kingdoms left on earth.
*
* Arab lands can boast the SECOND HIGHEST ILLITERACY RATES ON EARTH
*
* Arabs designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security by encouraging over 15 years of Airline hijackings. U.S. officials now look to Palestine for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
*
* Saudi Arabia's Medina camel racing team won the Muhammed championships in 2001.
*
* In 1991, during the Second Gulf War, the Baghdad Bozos Orchestra played a concert wearing
* Full Body condoms as Saddam Hussein masturbated in wild ecstasy.
*
* In 1948, 1967 and again in 1973 Arab Armies provided the FUNNIEST MILITARY CAMPAIGNS of the 20th century thereby giving many scholars the BEST LAUGH OF THEIR LIVES
*
* Al-Alam has the world's lowest number per capita of new books
*
* Afghanistan boasts the HIGHEST ILLITERACY RATE ON EARTH - with an astounding figure of 95% reported in Rural areas
*
* Yemen is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in the
* Number citizens who cannot read and write.
*
* Arab lands have fewer museums per capita than any others.
*
* Medicine
* In 1991, during the Second Gulf War Yassir Arafat overdosed on Viagra
*
* Technology
* As of 2001 in Mecca, Saudi Arabia a group of leading "Islamic Scholars" discovered that ELECTRICITY has replaced fire as a source of light for whieh Prince Najdi awarded them the Outstanding Islamic Intellegentsia Award for Technical Excellence.

So why is there such a great disparity?

The answer is quite simple:

One vital matter that is always overlooked when discussing the issue of "Palestine" is that OUR LORD Said to Abram: (who was to be later known as Abraham)

"I will make of you a great nation.
I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you" (Genesis 12:2-3).

Sadly, the Arabs decided to "Curse" God's chosen people by their actions. They have been doing this for 5,000 years and the results are evident to all. Consequently it's high time for the Arab Alley to face the music:

THEY HAVE ALL BEEN CURSED BY GOD HIMSELF AND SHALL ALWAYS BE MISERABLE FAILURES!

Response to Lance
You and I see the same things but most of the others in the world today do not. It is hard for reasonable minds to decide who is right and who has rights today.

Let's not forget that despite one or another's claims to homestead these acient lands, Iran has publically vowed to wipe the state of Israel off the map.

I think this is the heart of the issue. No matter how statehood evolved, whether right or wrong. it is in place. Maybe Israel should of been larger, maybe it should have been smaller. No matter. It is. No other nation in the world has the right to liquidate another. This is not a matter of a sovereign entity trying to eliminate another, it is fundamentally religion based. All the other militant Islamic groups jump on the band wagon. The next thing we will hear is that such and such a tribe of Islamic people were displaced when Israel was formed and they should have their own sovereignty as well.

That's why its Hamas in the Gaza and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

Response to Finkelstein
Yes, British implementation of the Balfour Declaration was wrong and a violation of their mandate, but it happened a long time ago. It cannot be used an an excuse to run people off of a land who have never known any other home in support for others claim of a "right to return" to a land they have never lived on. It cannot be an excuse for an unprovoked war of aggression 31 years later, 50 years later, and again 89 years later.

If we are to allow the present to pay the price for past misdeeds and undo the Balfour declaration, then perhaps we should go farther and re-create the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary? After all, the Lucitania WAS carrying weapons.


Israel's Right to Exist
To Lance:
Thanks for the history. The initiative to get support from the world wide Jewish Community for Britains role in WWI was put forth in a letter to Lord Rothschild dated November 2, 1917:

"His Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievment of this object, it clearly being understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religous rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I would suggest that by placing a country on top of non-Jewish communities, one does prejudice them. Arafat was Egyptian but an opportunist. One may argue that all the Jewish political leaders were something else before they were Israelies.

The Balfour declaration evolved in such a way as to overlook the civil rights of Palestinians.

In response to Finkelstein
In 1917, Lord Balfour suggested that Britain use their League of Nations Mandate in the Hashemite Kingdom of TransJordan to create a national homeland for the Jews. The British treated their mandatory like a colony and began implementation of the Balfour Declaration. At this time, Gaza was part of Egypt. In 1949, The United Nations approved a partition plan for portion of the Hashemite Kingdom west of the Jordan River (hence the name "west bank"). The combined Arab nations declared war and were defeated by a mob of Jewish refugees. Israel accepted the Arabs within her borders, all the Arab nations ran their Jew off to Israel.

In 1967, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt launched a war of aggression against the state of Israel. Israel captured Gaza from Egypt (and the Sinai), the west bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. Yassir Arafat, who claimed the name "Palestinian," was an Egyptian.

So in answer to your question; "Who are the Palestinians?" Those in Gaza are Egyptians and those from the West Bank are Jordanis.

Israel's Right to Exist
I have two questions. What are Israel's borders? How many nuclear weapons does Israel possess?

Any debate about Israel must include answers to these two questions. All of war depends on it.

The oversimplified history provided by Medved glosses over the original intent and plan for a reorganized middle east. There was a provision for a Palestinian homeland that lacked the impetus and momentum that the holocaust fomented. So Philip Hitti says there's no such thing as Palestine? Then who are Palestinians?

I also note that the popular press says that this latest round of violence was started by the Hezbollah when they kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. It was reported by other agencies that Israel kidnapped two members of Hezbollah prior to the Israeli soldier abductions. Where do we start when we try to retrace the escalation of violence?

Of course Israel has a right to exist. Other indigenous peoples have a right to exist as well. We can not debate the issues of power and influence in the middle east based upon articles like Medved's.

Masking the issue with questions like: Does the USA have the right to exist ? frame the question in such a way as to lead one to believe that the answer to both questions should be the same. Maybe the answers are the same but the justifications are not. Apples and oranges.

Does Israel Have a Right to Exist?
Another three cheers for Michael Medved! And a Tiger!

For those interested in more detail on this vexed but exceedingly important topic I highly recommend the long but very valuable pamphlet by David Meir-Levi at
www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf

It is a matter of naivity
Mike it was great meeting you last June at the Talker's "New Media Seminar." I happen to agree with you that there is a right to exist for all people in the minds of the left..unless you are referring to conservative Americans or Israel. A phenomenon which I am fixated on in times like this, is the tunnel vision of the liberals. During any conflict, they only recognize evil in the form of violence alone. Even here, they only seem to sense wrongdoing when the stronger of the two in any given conflict is the producer of it. The lesser military can resort to any tactic and the left will justify and qualify whatever is done. With this in mind it seems impossible for an American or Israeli liberal to support his or her nation in a time of war. Drop leaflets of warnings, drop food and supplies for your enemy's folks, strike as surgically as humanly possible while the "lesser" resorts to suicide vests, sawing heads of prisoners off, spraying crowds with machine gun fire etc. all inflicted on as many unsuspecting defenseless civilians as possible and the left will explain how this resort was necessary and overdue. One new development I see that is disturbing, is the unlikely but visible alliance forming between S> American leftists and radical Islamo Fascists. Keep your eye on the Amazon as the next area of communist/ radical Islam terror base. If this a pre-cursor to World War III, what is?

For an interesting comment on the world intervention in the Middle East coflict, go to samaron.townhall.com
Its fantastic!

Creation of Jewish state- BIG MISTAKE !
especially creating one which included the property of a large number of people who didn't want to be a member of a Jewish state

Israel's Right To Exist
Nice history lesson on Israel!!

Michael doesn't even start way back several thousand years ago with Abraham and the
"promised land" thing promised by God to the Jews, which Moses and Joshua (Ten Commandments fame) carried out in the Old Testament. He starts with the Roman General Titus destroying the great Jewish temple in Jerusalem in 70AD and using the gold and jewels to build the coliseum where the lions killed Christians and others for a couple of hundred years.

Many people, including some mainstream media writers, today are quick to express their opinions on world events, such as Israel, without knowing the history behind it.

Phil




Beyond the news
Is there anyplace that I can get a similar program? I really like the audio program. Please think about it.

Phylo's Comments...
illustrate the blind alley at the end of the liberal philosophy of multiculturalism, which holds that no culture is superior to another, except ours, which is inferior to all. While I cannot speak for him, I must assume that as a liberal, Phylo supports radical gay and feminist agendas, and that he deplores the slightest whiff of religion in the public square. Yet his multiculutralism forces him to embrace a culture that stones homosexuals to death, treats women as cattle and slaughters them for perceived slights to honor, and decapitates anyone who does not bow to a particular religion and follow all of its strictures scrupulously. He finds suggestions that Western concepts of personal liberty and compassion be introduced to these savages "frightening," and regards those who support these ideas as "bloodthirsty."

The fact that Bill Clinton et al do not question Israel's right to exist has no bearing on the fact that a significant subset of the Left DOES question that right. This is particularly true outside the US. Look at any lefty paper or blog--chock full of tin-foil hat Zionist conspiracy theories and railings against "neocons" (code word for Jews) in our government.

This conflict also neatly illustrates another flawed liberal philosoph--moral relativism, or the idea that there is no objective good or evil, only what different individuals believe or feel. They see moral equivalence between Muslim savages and Israelis trying only to defend themselves, and call for "proportional response". This is the same reason why they hate Bush, as they did Reagan before him--he clearly recognizes evil, and is prepared to fight it.

Still waiting
EpsilonDao:

Here is Chomsky on Israel:
"On the matter of legitimacy and recognition, once the State of Israel was established in 1948, my feeling has been that it should have the rights of any state in the international system: no more, no less. That includes, specifically, the right to live in peace and security within its recognized international borders..." (2003)

While Chomsky questions Israeli treatment of Arabs, he doesn't question its right to exist. So, you have to keep searching for that one liberal who believes Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth.

While I'm at it, I'd like to amend my challenge to a 'significant', sane liberal who runs around asking the question. There aren't any. Medved's using a cheap rhetorical trick to set up an imagined evil enemy.

Phylo's belief
"I think most Muslims already hold the values you're talking about."

They've got a darned funny way of showing it, in the nations that they control.

ShopTalk
I agree with most of your post except for this point.

"Why Israel didn't just give back all or most of the West Bank to Jordan thirty years ago may go down as one of the great strategic blunders of modern geo-politics."

I have to disagree. A lot of the territory Israel siezed (and then colonized) were strategic areas of the West Bank that Jordan used to launch its attack in the 6-Day War.

I don't disagree that they shouldn't have settled it, or that giving it back would have eased tensions.

But, I think giving your enemy back its staging ground immediately following a war they lauched that was devoted to your annihilation would be foolish.


Mr Tree HUgger
There are NO innocent civilians in the Islamic world. Those brainwashed women and their viperous offspring, who are weaned on hatred and venom are human shields, and judging from the dancing in the streets when anything terrible happens to Americans or Israelis they aren't even unwilling shields. Martyrdom is their highest honor and they should be accommodated.

"Moderate" and "innocent" moslems are too loud in their refusal to condemn the radicals for anyone with half a sense of self-preservation to waste tears on them.

Don't think for one moment your compassion will save you if they win. YOU"RE NEXT.

Israel's residents and citizens
Smitty--
Your comments were somewhat confused, so I can't be too certain of what you are referencing, however, if you are thinking of Israeli Arabs living inside the state of Israel (as opposed to occupied territories) you are dead wrong in claiming that those non-Jews are excluded as Israeli citizens. They are citizens. They have representation in the Knesset. They have their own elected municipal governments. They have all the rights of Jewish citizens.

Now if we discussing exclusion in reference to residents of occupied territories, that is an entirely different story, and your points have some merit. Why Israel didn't just give back all or most of the West Bank to Jordan thirty years ago may go down as one of the great strategic blunders of modern geo-politics.

Michael--
Once again, you demonstrate that your knowledge of world history is first-rate, and your arguments remain well articulated and largely unimpeachable. Damn good column.

Liberal dialog & Phylo se fizer
Let's spell it out in words of one syllable so the simple-minded among us can understand. The Arabs say a lot of things, but all of them mean in the end that they want to see every last Jew dead and Israel wiped off the map. The lefties in this country use a lot of high-flown rhetoric to undermine our history, our institutions, language, our military and even subvert the next generation. Exactly what does this mean to the USA as we know it? If they succeed in burying this country or changing it into something unrecognizable, just where do we go?

Bloodthirsty? When someone with a gun stands in front of you and threatens to kill you, maybe YOU beg and plead, maybe he's bluffing. I'm not to sure of my pleading skills, and don't even care if he's bluffing. I AM sure of my aim.

Israel
Sir,

Israel will exist as long as her yhoung men are willing to put their lives on the line and not one second longer.

E. David Litvak

Finding fault.
It is an observation of human behavior, of over 60 years, that leads me to conclude that anyone who has the need to find fault, to declare that someone does not have the right to (fill in the blank) has a synthetic measure for themself. That measure depends on finding that someone is less that desirable by the viewer.
What if you were in Alabama in in the 60's? Would you have told Rosa Parks to "get off the bus"?

Real men, and Real heroes have no need to declare what a sierra hotel person they are. They know!

Not
"the modern Jewish State built their nation on the same basis as the founders of the United States"

Uh no, we didn't exclude the inhabitants & existing residents from citizenship, every state & territory was added with the consent of the residents, without the assistance of the existing residents we could have never added the former Spanish territories, and after we added states & territories those citizens thereof had full voting & citizenship rights.

Israel is a race & religion based Socialist state, America is a political state based on individual liberty & responsibility.

Should Iraq exist?
Someone should apply some historical reasoning as to whether Iraq should exist as well.

Before Bush invaded Iraq, the pentagon report stated that there was an 85% chance Iraq would degrade to civil war in 5 years. Looks like the pentagon knew what it was talking about.

While Medved's comments about liberals questioning the validity of Israel and the US existence are straw men, it is pertinent to ask if Iraq should exist as a country.

1.) Do the majority of the Iraqi people really want to coexist as one government? I believe the Kurds to the North would prefer not too. But I don't know for certain but I've read in various places they want their own Kurdistan.

2.) If not, what would the "natural" carving up of Iraq look like? Here again, rumor is that Turkey is adamantly opposed to the Kurds having their country. What's the history there?

The Iraqi people themselves may come to the conclusion they cannot live under one government.

Will we support them on this.

Finally, whenever I think about the middle-east I always think about Sam Kinnison's comedy skit about people living in the dessert dying due to lack of food and water. To which Sam Kinninson yelled, "get out of the f**king dessert!"

Why did the EU become the EU? Because the subscribing countries knew they needed to cojoin economies in some fashion to compete in the global economy. I recently read a report whereby it is project within the next 20 years 1/3 of the worlds population will live near the world's major metropolitan areas.

And here you Palestine with what, 3 million people?, wanting autonomy? Given the world trend mentioned above, it gives one pause to ponder. If the Palestinians had their own country as dictated by the Oslo accords, would the people still be there? Or would they have left to major metropolitan areas somewhere else in the world? There are no resources on that land. There major economic source is aid handed to them by foreign countries. If the Palesinians established peace with Israel, how long with the aid come?

How will any small country the size of Palestine, or the pieces of Iraq if broken into three countries compete in the global economy?

Saudia Arabia has 40% unemployment. How much longer can they sustain that and remain a viable country?

I don't have any answers, nor any strong opinion except to say that I think my questions about what it means to be a country in the global economy are far more germaine then Medved's assertions that liberals as the norm question the right to Israel's existence and the US existence.








Israel's right to exist (peacefully)
Another great article from Michael Medved. This is not complicated: Israel has been used as a scapegoat to the world, as Jews have been used as scapegoats in countries of their settlement. In Russia - Jewish pogroms, in Poland - Hitler's concentration camps, in (enlightened) France - the Dreyfuss trial, etc. In Stalin's Soviet Union (the dream society of leftists of all denominations)- the Doctors case and the "cosmopolit" labels (read Jews). This trend continues regardless of the birthright to a piece of land. It is easy for American leftists (should say anti-American) to critisize Israel while seating comfortably in their professorial and editorial chairs, they don't have to go to war and risk their precious lives. In my opinion, Israel should be supported by all means because we in the United States don't have that many devouted friends in the mostly hostile world. It will be too late when gas chambers start heating again.
Winston 829.

DocNoleCat and razor1
Obviously, I don't have a problem with virtues like compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone.

The problem I have is with the idea that we should steal all of their oil and impose Judeo–Christian values on an Islamic society. Besides, I think most Muslims already hold the values you're talking about.

That clear enough for you fellows?

Phylo out.

Lib_Dia
...we have already discussed the matter. The response was not directed towards you.

drummaster challenge us to "name a single member of the American left who is actually asking this question?".

Chomsky is a member of the American Left, as is Cynthia McKinney. We can quiblle about prominence or how "mainstream" they are, but he asked for an example and I gave it. If he wanted a "Big Name" like you obviously do, he/she should have been more specific.

I am fully aware that the hard-right and hard-left both have anti-Israeli members. If anyone had any doubt, just look at some of the posts from self-described "conservatives" in these forums.

Liberals like to paint conservatives with the "intolerant" and "ignorant of history" brush.

Truth is, most are just ordinary folks with ideas worth listening to.

RE: As I said
****Regarding his prominence: "According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar, and the eighth most cited scholar overall."***

I don't understand this disconnect.

The vote in the House supporting Israel defending itself from Hezbollah was 410-8.

Which are youi going to believe best represents the liberal perspective: the House vote or the "Arts and Humanities Citation Index"?

Look, I believe Noam Chomsky is a professor of cognitive sciences. For all I know his writings about his profession and not his political views are what gets cited.

Noam Chomsky is a nobody in liberal politics except perhaps in the circle he travels. Neither Bill Clinton, nor Hillary Clinton, nor John Kerry or nor Howard Dean ever cite Noam Chomsky for anything. Show me where Noam Chomsky gets any mainstream media.

In today's day and age you be better putting forth George Lekov from UC Berkeley. He is all over mainstream media. Is he anti-Israel? I have no idea. Never heard him speak on it.

Conservatives like to paint liberals with the radical brush. Fact of the matter is mainstream liberals are just ordinary folks without fancy pants notions ascribed to them. Most people don't know the history of Israel. Hell, most people don't the history of their own country.



CLarification for LD
I apologize for the typo in my post, LD. It should have read, "LD: Go to DailyKos. Read the posts about Israel. Then check the list of "Mainstream liberal" Democrats WHO TOOK PART IN THE YEARLY KOS CONVENTION to suck up to "a few thousand 'lefties' at best."

Howard Dean, Harry Reid, Bill Richardson, Barbara Boxer, Wesley Clark,
-- and that's just the first five names I skimmed off the YK website) -- "Mainstream liberals" all, went to Las Vegas to suck up to the "few thousand 'lefties'".

If support for Israel is so d@mned strong on your side of the fence, your leading lights should avoid events sponsored by people who write things like:

"Imagine a world without Israel -- Or is that not allowed?" and "When is the USA going to invade Israel?"

Those aren't posters of comments on the blog -- those are regular columnists.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. I am only curious, now, as to whether you'll argue that sanctioned columnists aren't representaive of a political movement, or that Reid and Dean aren't leading lights.

As I said
...with Lib_Dia, Noam Chomsky is a prominent voice on the Left you repeatedly questions Israel's right to exist.

Regarding his prominence: "According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar, and the eighth most cited scholar overall."

He is one, there are more.

History is on the side of the Jews
You all seem to have read Medved's article and missed the history. A substantial population of Jews have ALWAYS occupied the area called Palestine by the British. Most Jews were dispersed throughout the western world, but some remained, which is why there is an ancient Jewish quarter in Jerusalem. The Jews never left Jerusalem. That's all propaganda! The Arabs were the invaders and they enjoyed some control as their numbers increased because the Ottoman Turks gave it to them, but the land itself belonged to the Ottoman Empire, not to Palestinians. Prior to the creation of Israel, Palestinians were either Jewish or they were Arab (although I suspect there were a few Christians) and all were essential slave vassels to the Ottomans and then subjects of the British Mandate. There was NO ancient Arab nation in and around Jerusalem! There were a growing community of Jews and a lot of Arab immigrants, some of whom lived in that area for generations.

Don't fall for the PLO's propaganda. The history is there for the research. Look it up in a credible third-party history and you'll see that Medved has a valid arguement!

Wrong Premise
Your meandering screed goes on a great length to answer a question no one -- certainly any sane member of the American left -- is asking.

You claim Leftists are questioning Israel's right to survive. Can you, or anyone, name a single member of the American left who is actually asking this question?

Of course not. Which begs another question: why would Medved write the post? Ans: As a populist appeal intended to foment more anger and discontent on the LCD of the right. The Mideast is imploding, but don't talk about the reasons why; instead, focus wingnut attention on the standard, wholly fabricated opponent, Liberals.

Yaron Brook Says It Best ...
Ayn Rand Institute Press Release
http://www.aynrand.org/

Death to Diplomacy
July 26, 2006

Irvine, CA--Even those who blame Hezbollah and Hamas for initiating war on Israel claim that Israel's retaliation must be halted, because ultimately only diplomacy can yield a long-term resolution. They say the same about how America should handle the nuclear-bomb-chasing North Korean and Iranian regimes. "But the advocates of diplomacy with our enemies are dead wrong--such 'diplomacy' necessarily encourages aggression and paves the road to catastrophes," said Dr. Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute.

"Diplomacy is only proper between nations with interests in common. It is not possible with committed enemies such as Iran. One cannot reach a mutually beneficial settlement by compromising between an aggressor's lust to kill you and your right to live. 'Diplomacy' today is a euphemism for appeasement. It is the coward's attempt to mask total surrender to an aggressor as a practical and moral policy.

"Sixty years ago Europe's 'diplomacy' with Hitler encouraged him to start World War II. The U.S.-Israeli embrace of 'diplomacy' encouraged Hezbollah and Hamas to start the current war--just as America's 'diplomacy' with North Korea abetted that regime's nuclear program--just as America's 'diplomacy' with Iran emboldens it to continue its nuclear quest and its ardent financing of Islamists like Hezbollah and Hamas."

Palestine
The only Palestine that existed in the region was the British Mandate of Palestine that did mint coins with "Palestine" on them and they had writing in Arabic, English and Hebrew. The original partition that created Israel also had an Arab state which the Arabs rejected so they could have had their own state in 1948 but they got greedy and tried to win it all through war. If the Palestinians had adhered to the Oslo accords they could have been well on the way to self governence and possibly a state but they preferred terrorist attacks on Israel to keeping their side of the agreement. And the best offer they got was at Camp David in 1999 but Arafat rejected that which included most of what they are asking for now so it seems clear that the Palestinians don't want a state if it includes the existence of Israel. For this reason I never understood the "Roadmap to Peace," which depended on trusting the Palestinians to adhere to agreement, something they never have done in the past. Israel has always wanted peace, but the Arabs have always chosen war.

RaidenCraig
What of the numerous historical sources (Mark Twain for one) who specifically cite that the land of Modern day Israel was virtually uninhabited prior to the Jewish immigration?

The Jews brought industry and commerce, which brought good jobs. Arabs immigrated for those jobs. The modern day "Palestinian" is a descendant of those Arabs, NOT a “native” as most people on the left describe them.

And, regarding the mistreatment of Palestinians in Israel: Have you ever looked at the treatment of Palestinians in other Arab countries? Or Jews for that matter? Or any non-Muslim? There is certainly room for improvement, but I would rather be a Palestinian in Israel than a Palestinian in Syria or Jordan. And I would certainly rather be a Palestinian in Israel than a Christian or Jew in Syria, Jordan, of Saudi.

Regarding the Media's
regarding the media's treatment of the Palestinian/Israel problem, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You are right regarding the media's handling of Palestinian terrorist attacks, but the difference is how the media handles Israel's response to terror attacks. It's pretty much the same as it always has been with little (if any) softening of tone towards Israel reprisals. It’s the same: “cycle of violence”, number of innocents killed (focusing mainly on women and children), and quotes from all the people condemning Israel’s actions.

Do some research on the news stories following the Israeli bombing of an Apartment building that contained one of their most wanted terrorists (it was a few years ago). Read the op ed pages of the New York times regarding Israel.

RE: Lib Dia
****Noam Chomsky is highly respected in liberal circles. He is more left-leaning than the mainstream, but that doesn't mean he is not respected and influential in liberal politics.****

Well, you have more information than I do, but I will respectively disagree. I read and take in liberal media daily and never come across Chomsky as on op/ed or anything else. In addition, I've never heard Bill Clinton, John Kerry or any other liberal decision maker I know taught Noam. So I will respectively disagree. I've certainly never read his stuff.

****My perception (which may be wrong) is that most left-leaning individuals feel that Israel has the right to exist though they are more sympathetic to the "plight of the Palestinians".****

Given you are expressing an opinion, I will express a difference, I disagree. After 9/11 the liberal media has been far less sympathetic with the terrorist activity of the Palestinians. I have no doubt there are extremists who anti-Israel in this country. But are they the decision makers? John Kerry? Hillary Clinton. Not hardly.

***I challenge you to look at the history of the region, and compare the terrorist attacks after a major military victory for Israel (like the 6 day war) to the terrorist attacks after a "peaceful resolution (Oslo Accords, the 2000 peace talks, etc).****

I'm not sure what your point is with this. My point is the liberal position. The fact that liberals may be supporting a losing proposition is beside the point in this discussion.

Coming full circle, Michael Medved is way off base asserting liberals don't recognize the right to either the US or Israel to exist. Mainstream Democrats support Israel. The Senate passed a resolution unanimously supporting Israel in its attack on Hezbollah. We are talking a 410-8 vote? Why is Medved bring this up?

" WASHINGTON — A week after Israel took on Hezbollah in response to a cross-border attack, the U.S. Congress overwhelmingly passed a resolution expressing support for the Jewish state.

Efforts by both houses of Congress to rush through earlier resolutions were dogged by political turf wars and agonizing over how best to express concerns about the safety of Lebanese civilians.

The arguments were reflected in the only significant difference between the final Senate version, passed unanimously on Tuesday, and the final U.S. House of Representatives version, which passed Thursday in a 410-8 vote. "

Lib Dia
I brought up Cynthia McKinney a a joke mostly. I know most liberals try to disconnect themselves and their Party from that walking embarrassment.

I also brought her up as you seem to challenge us to find a national politicial on the Left you denied Israel's right to exist.

Noam Chomsky is highly respected in liberal circles. He is more left-leaning than the mainstream, but that doesn't mean he is not respected and influential in liberal politics.

My perception (which may be wrong) is that most left-leaning individuals feel that Israel has the right to exist though they are more sympathetic to the "plight of the Palestinians".

As a result, they are more willing to give a pass to Palestinian (and other) terrorist groups committed to the destruction of Israel because they are fighting against "injustice".

As a result, they provide political cover for Hamas and Hezbollah to target civilians at will, but Israel cannot respond if there is the slightest chance that a civilian would be injured in the attack. Otherwise, Isreal would not be "fighting fair". It is a crippling situation that would lead to Israel's destruction.

The current situation is an excellent example of this mindset. Liberals claim that it will only lead to an increase in violence.

I challenge you to look at the history of the region, and compare the terrorist attacks after a major military victory for Israel (like the 6 day war) to the terrorist attacks after a "peaceful resolution (Oslo Accords, the 2000 peace talks, etc).

RE: Mr Tree Hugger and Lib Dia
*** I ask if you would call Noam Chomsky a crackpot? How about Cynthia McKinney?***

Ok, take a deep breadth. Where is the mainstream liberal mindset with respect to Israel? All one has to do is look back Bill Clinton and the Dayton accords. What Clinton tried to do and was lauded for by the mainstream liberal press was establish peace between Israel and the Palestinians and work towards setting up a Palestinian state. Mainstream liberals in all the major cities and papers were very supportive of what Clinton was trying to do.

How does that translate into support for Noam Chomsky? Or Cynthia McKinney?

It's interesting. The conservatives are incessantly railing against the mainstream media.

Is the mainstream media calling for the end of Isreal as a nation? Nope. Is it saying Israel had no right to defend itself againts terroris Hezbollah? Nope. All the mainstream stories from the NYT to the San Francisco Chronicle are decrying the killing of civilians.

You know where to find the liberal mindset. Just go to the various mainstream papers. Why bring up Noam Chomsky and Cynthia McKinney?

RE: Phylo and LD and Mr. Tree Hugger, Oh
LD: Go to DailyKos. Read the posts about Israel. Then check the list of "Mainstream liberal" Democrats to suck up to "a few thousand 'lefties' at best."

This makes no sense?

You show me any poll in America, or any US Congressman who claims the US doesn't have the right to exist? You're being silly as was Michael.

That was my argument.

You show me any national poll in America where Democrats are opposed to Israel existing as a nation. Or that Liberals think America should not exist?

You won't find them cause they don't exist.

All mainstream Americans believe the US has a right to exist as well as Israel.

Your rebuttal made zero sense.

Mr Tree Hugger and Lib Dia
liberal_dialog – To say that no one on the left (except the crackpots) disputes the right of Israel to exist, I ask if you would call Noam Chomsky a crackpot? How about Cynthia McKinney? I know most conservatives would label them both, but I thought at least Noam was somewhat respected on the Left.

Mr. Tree-Hugger – The right to exist and the Israeli response to Hezbollah go hand in hand, you cannot easily separate one argument from the other.

Hezbollah has made it quite clear that they will accept nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel. With such rigidity in their goals, it makes all the rest of their “reasons” a bit of a smoke screen. Hezbollah, with premeditation and no provocation has attacked Israel and kidnapped Israeli soldiers. They are launching rocket attacks and hiding amongst civilians. A quarter of the entire Israeli population is currently in bomb shelters.

Negotiation (read: appeasement) would only motivate repeated attacks. A land invasion by ground troops and armored divisions, while reducing civilian casualties, would open up an even larger can of worms (especially cries from the Left). So what would you propose Israel do? Write a sternly worded letter? Threaten economic sanctions? Sit there and take it? Many on the left propose they do just that with their cries for a “limited response”, when any of those actions would only lead to repeated and more serious attacks on Israeli civilians.

Has any of the concessions Israel given led to peace? Oslo? Return of Gaza? Or has every single concession led to larger and more numerous attacks? I’ll give you a hint: Go research how many suicide bombers there were prior to the Oslo Accords.

Without the option of a ground assault, air strikes on the Hezbollah targets are the only option for response. Those targets are in civilian areas. Put the blame where it should be: on the heads of the terrorist group who use human shields to increase the body count with the end result of having bed wetters condemn Israel for using the only option the have left available to them.

The only option, that is, that doesn’t involve their eventual destruction.

You claim that “our plans are not working” and we should change them. Our difficulty lies in the fact that liberals allow the terrorists to make the rules of engagement. Those rules include the argument that we are not allowed to respond to individuals who target civilians because other civilians may get hurt.

They play you like a fiddle. Your post makes that blindingly obvious.
I empathize with you. No one wants civilian casualties. But, the hundreds of deaths prevent thousands of future deaths, isn’t it worth the price?

As far as Israel is concerned, peace will only be the result of an armed conflict in which either the Islamofascists are destroyed or Israel is.

With those stakes, who would you rather have win?

Israel's right to exist
Michael Medved presents an excellent case for the existence of Israel and an interesting analogy between the way that nation and the United States were formed. However, as any Christian or Jew knows, there is a much simpler -- and much more powerful -- reason why Israel has the right to exist. Simply put......BECAUSE GOD SAID SO. God not only gave Israel that land, but it is prophecied that whosoever tries to take it away will put himself in direct opposition to the will of God. To those of us who believe in His word, that's reason enough to be thankful that the United States of America is on the side of Israel.

Israel's right to exist
The creation of Israel as a political entity was a mistake, and the 60 years of constant strife ever since was predictable.

Whether Israel has a right to exist is irrelevant. The Israelis aren't going anywhere. They'd rather be dead on the pile of rocks they call their holy land than alive anywhere else. That's sectarian thinking for you.

Medved is hypocritical. If the United Nations has no right to impose its will on Israel now, what right did it have to create Israel in the first place?

I don't criticize Israelis for trying to keep what little they have. More power to them. However, it doesn't mean I have to care what happens over there. If the bombs fall and Israel becomes one big, radioactive bomb crater, the rest of the world won't even blink.

Phylo and LD and Mr. Tree Hugger, Oh MY!
Liberal dialog wrote, "Whoever these people are who claim the US doens't have a right to exist or claim Israel doesn't have a right to exist because of "occupation of Arab lands" do not represent more than a few thousand "lefties" at best."

LD: Go to DailyKos. Read the posts about Israel. Then check the list of "Mainstream liberal" Democrats to suck up to "a few thousand 'lefties' at best."

To Phylo: Medved wrote, "Of course, these national origins (involving acts of will, rather than accidents of birth) mean that Israel and America can’t ever be as perfect, and blameless, and pure in our turbulent histories as, say, our old world counterparts like France, say, or Spain, or Belgium." Phylo replied, "He even admits that the establishment of both countries was less than purely moral.'

Your famous "nuance" is failing you, Phylo. MEDVED WAS BEING SARCASTIC. Of course, your excchange w/ Rugged Individualist makes your lack of nuance even clearer:

""... let’s take their oil and use some of the profits to introduce profound Judeo-Christian and Western ideals like compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone." In other words, like other genocidal maniacs in history, he wants to take over the world and make everyone else like us."

So, Phylo, what specifically do you object to? Is it compassion and kindness for others?
Is it self-reliance?
Is it personal integrity?
Is it individual freedom for everyone?
Advocacy of which of these makes one a "genocidal maniac?"

Finally, Mr. Tree Hugger writes, "The plans which you support are not working. That is the left position."

Then, give us YOUR plan. With specifics, please.



Yes, Michael
I often disagree with Medved, but on this one he is correct except for the Left's stance. What many claim regarding excess force is bogus. Wars are fought to be won. We dropped far more bombs on Nazi Germany that the Lufwaffe did on the UK. Not a soul yelled regarding exess force until after the 70's. What about the excess force of the initial Arab attack against Israel in 1948. What about the numerous massacres Arabs inflicted on Jews prior to this time. What about the indiscriminate attacks on any Israeli civilians. Sure, Israelis are armed and you would be to if your neighbors wanted you dead. What about the attacks against Jewish day care centers, school buses. What about the fact that every Israeli is a legitimate target. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why shouldn't Israel mark every single Palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, Hizbollah, Hamas and the other Arab/Persian Muslims as legitimate targets as well.

What about the excess force Muslims used to conquer their empire. They claim this was only self-defense, right, then why did the attack to many surrounding countries, invaded India, Spain and France. They were finally ejected after several centuries.
Some claim this stance is frightening. Try to imagine how most Israelis feel knowing what they know regarding their violent neighbors. Neighbors who pass out candy everytime an Israeli is murdered. What about the fact that they allow their children to play with Jewish body parts. What about the fact that they raise their children to homicide themselves. To me, this is far more frightening.

At the moment, many Arab Muslims call for the erradication of Israel and claim: "Jews are descended from swine and apes." Read some of what MEMRI and Palestinian Watch translate regarding what is written in Arabic as the English Arab web sites tone down most of the rhetoric. Many Muslims call for an Islamic Worldwide Caliphate. All other faiths are Satanic. You cannot turn against a brother/sister Muslim regardless of what he she does to the infidel. They claim that Islam does not discriminate, and the dhimmini taxes are only for military protection. They make excuses regarding the Qur'anic and hadiths as simply necessary because Muslims were only defending themselves. They horribly discriminate against women and wrap this in a shroud of honor and dignity.



Response to Phylo Se Fizer
Phylo,
Just like most liberals, you take satire and rhetoric from people like "rugged individualist" and attach phrases like "bloodthirsty bunch" to them, when no "bloodthirsty" intention was ever recommended. You state the following:

"What concerns me about the righties are some of the coments that follow. You seem to be a particularly bloodthirsty bunch.

Take this gem from "rugged individualist" for example:

'... let’s take their oil and use some of the profits to introduce profound Judeo-Christian and Western ideals like compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone.'

In other words, like other genocidal maniacs in history, he wants to take over the world and make everyone else like us."

If ideals such as "compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone" are concepts that are akin to what Hitler wanted to instill in the rest of the world, then perhaps you should move to Afghanistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or China or North Korea or Ethiopia to live the kind of life that these fortunate individuals are forced to live.

I believe that "rugged individualist" was making the point that these ideals such as "compassion and kindness for others" is worth the fight. His use of rhetoric to make his point is a tactic you lefties usually employ, along with exaggeration.

JO And Ms Conservative Have It Right
We and the Israelis have the right to exist because we are willing to fight for that right.

To call the current situation World War III is, if anything, denigrating to what is really going on. We are in a life-or-death struggle with Islam that has been going on since the 8th Century. Don't take my word for it; just read the Koran (hope that's a politically INcorrect spelling) and listen to Muslim leaders.

Israel & US: Right to Exist
The only reason that the question of Israels' and the US' right to exist is even a question is only because Israel and the US are democracies, and not Muslim dictatorships. Without the the US, the entire world would quickly fall under Muslim control, depending only on how long the Brits could endure the internal muslim insurgency.

If one chooses to concede that Israel's and the US's right to exist are in question, then the very same question of 'right to exist?' should also be asked of EVERY other country and political entity in the world. Why? Because time is most critical in any analysis of this question with regard to ANY specific country - Israel, US, N. Korea, France, Pakistan, Ireland, Argentina, Japan, Australia, Iran, Nepal, Iraq, South Africa, Mexico, Egypt, Canada, Sweden, Sudan, Russia, etc, etc - you have to ask, "When do you choose start the historical (and pre-historical) clock?"

Many countries have obviously ceased to exist in the last 100, 500, 1000, 2000, 5000+ years. Well, it can be argued that those countries should also be reinstated, and the current political entities in those lands be abolished. This doesn't make much sense to me either, but it is of quite similar logic that the US and Israel should be given back to the preceding occupants. Or given back to the occupants before that. Or the occupants before that. Or to whoever may claim to have more right to be there.

Its all a matter of time. When do you want the historical clock to begin? Wherever it is convenient for your political agenda would be the most common answer. No, not a valid answer indeed! And for that reason, I think the question of Israels' and the United States's right to exist is an intersting, but totally invalid question. Of course they have the right to exist! Because it all depends on when and what part of history one chooses to ignore! Post-1967, post-1776, post-1200, pre or post Crusades, post-Muhamed, pre- Muhamed, pre-Roman, post-500 B.C., post-5000 B.C., pre-polar ice bridge to the Americas? Take your pick, but that doesn't give your choice any validity whatsoever!

The Arabs and Muslim insurgents in the mid-east choose to ignore the time between Jewish control millenia ago, and 1967. Based only upon that ridiculous rationale or total lack thereof, Israel has no right to exist. Incidentally, let's get all these Muslim insurgents back to Saudi Arabia or Syria or wherever they came from too!

Your are missing the point
I do not understand why your argument centers around the right to exist. Centering around this question means you do not understand the left perspective at all. Why is the question not about protecting the lives of innocents verses proper enforcements and not supporting excessive force that harms innocent lives by choice. Not all people from Lebanon are Hezbollah, Yet this plan does nothing really outside of lip service to protect the innocent. It does not dissuade excessive force. It accepts as "Oh Well" the concept of unintended casualties.

This administration calls stem cells research immoral in one breath and accepts unintended casualties of innocent people with the same breath. That is morality? Is there a scale to the value of life on your side? Why is not life protected across the board? How do you get to this selection process? as a Christian, how is it we can put our lives as more important than the life of another and accept the cost of the innocent. 5 US peacekeepers being killed by Israeli bombs is acceptable if you support such excessive force.

Where is this question of the right to exists really getting us? If the answer is dropping ten bombs verses one bomb, ( or ten lives to every one taken, which is the position of those who support the right to exist) than why not make it 20 bombs or a hundred bombs? The increase is force is simply escalating the problem, not solving it. These "enemies" know how to fight us. The Taliban is back. They drag the world into situations of enduring Shocks and Awes while planning guerrilla battles foreign peace keepers do not have great chances. The plans which you support are not working. That is the left position. It has nothing to do with a right to exist. Who does not have a right to exist after all? Great Republicans are great managers. If the plans do not work. Change them. Do not bullishly continue down fatal paths where innocent people are always involved.

We as well as our allies have been bombing people to kingdom come for years now. it is not working. Too many innocent people are dying. It is time to the Bush team to think of and use a new solution.

Jerry h


Straw man
"A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

****It should come as no surprise that some of the same angry leftists who stridently deny Israel’s “right to exist” similarly challenge the claims to nationhood of the United States of America.****

This is a straw man if there ever was one. Mainstream liberal America doesn't challenge the claims to nationhood of the US? What an absurd, ridiculous statement. Where do you people come from?

These fallacious straw men are rampant on townhall.com. Billy Prager claims, "The Left's anti-Israel positions until now were based, at least in theory, on its opposition to Israeli occupation of Arab land and its belief in the "cycle of violence" between Israel and its enemies." Excuse me? I don't hear any main stream lefty from Bill Clinton to John Kerry who believe this nonsense.

I'm facscinated as to why these people are making stuff up? Surly the left has enough real positions for the right to pick on without fabricating them.

What I can tell from European and American media is that most of the left is railing against Israel for using excessive force bombing airports and killing civilians. No one is arguing against Irsreal's right to exist, or Israel's occupation of Arab land? Yeah you can probably find a few crackpots out there on KPFA to back up these claims, but SO WHAT? You can probably find crackpots who'll say just about anything.

Whoever these people are who claim the US doens't have a right to exist or claim Israel doesn't have a right to exist because of "occupation of Arab lands" do not represent more than a few thousand "lefties" at best.




response from the left
I appreciate Michael's argument here. It's well thought out and well supported. He even admits that the establishment of both countries was less than purely moral.

"Of course, these national origins (involving acts of will, rather than accidents of birth) mean that Israel and America can’t ever be as perfect, and blameless, and pure in our turbulent histories as, say, our old world counterparts like France, say, or Spain, or Belgium."

What concerns me about the righties are some of the coments that follow. You seem to be a particularly bloodthirsty bunch.

Take this gem from "rugged individualist" for example:

"... let’s take their oil and use some of the profits to introduce profound Judeo-Christian and Western ideals like compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone."

In other words, like other genocidal maniacs in history, he wants to take over the world and make everyone else like us.

It seems like most of the posters on this page would support this. If so, you people frighten me.

Phylo out.

the enemy
The enemy wants to win.

The enemy wins if the Free World gives up, bends over; Bali-style,and TAKES IT the way liberals and progressives like it.


No More.

Welcome to Tomorrow.

In Billiards, it's called '1 shot at a time'.....'1 ball at a time.'U can either win the game and leave the table or miss a shot and leave the table.......

To whom it may concern,
Sometimes, everyone feels 'safe'.

Sometimes, eveyone is safe. And then, reality sets in & nobody is even 'close' to safe.

The sooner everyone gets on the same page, the better.

this is more than a 'Holy War'. This is ISLAM vs. All Other Human Beings on Planet Earth.

Do I have a right to exist? Or you?
Maybe you won't fight for it, but I will!

And isn't that what Mr Medved meant? If you ARE willing to fight, you have the RIGHT to exist.

Birthrates and demographics may mean something, but in the long run it is the peoples' willingness to FIGHT that gives them the right to exist. IF you lose that willingness, you lose any other rights.

That would apply here in America also. If we aren't willing to fight for the right to be Americans - and make it clear WHAT an American IS, then we will lose the country to foreigners or aliens. Americans have always had ONE language. All who came learned it. Became Americans. Gave up any alligence to any other country or government. WANTED to be AMERICAN because it was something to be PROUD OF.

And we Americans will defend her!

And Israelis will defend their nation!

Cause that's what CITIZENS DO.

Israel's right to exist
Whether Christian or not the world recognizes Jesus as Jew.The world's time is divided into BC. and AD., so before and after Jesus.So without a lot of political or other rhetoric, I think this fact speaks for itself. The Jewish homeland is, of course, JERUSALEM. It has not moved in several thousand years.
Only in the opium filled minds of people like the Iranian President do their jaded ideas think they own the world. And as long as the USA continues to support Israel will the USA continue to be strong.
Where I sit in China watching world events do we see things in a different light. Here jealousy over the Usa success and China trying to copy everything American do you get the feeling you are in some kind of time warp. These guys keep trying to push all the buttons that will make them number one instead of the USA. Then you would see a definite shift to the left with Palestine, Iran ,Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Korea,Vietnam all lining up to hit the USA and Israel. And they are all arming themselves with nuclear and space technology.This is there not so secret plan. That is why groups like ASEAN have been formed,they need trade money to do this.

So I think Israel and the USA both have the right to exist.

Right to Win
Israel and its supporters need to stop defending its right to exist and start fighting to win. Psychopaths surround Israel and inspire an 8th century "civilization." Resentment, duplicity, and murder define Moslems. When handed democracy, these “innocent” civilians vote for terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. They even enslave and murder their own mothers, wives, daughters and sisters in the name of “honor.”

Instead of worrying about enraging them, we need to destroy their means and their will to fight. Because this civilization produces nothing, they would pose no threat to the world if we didn’t pay them hundreds of billions of dollars for the oil we discovered and taught them to refine and distribute. So let’s take their oil and use some of the profits to introduce profound Judeo-Christian and Western ideals like compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone.

The Right To Win
Israel and its supporters need to stop defending its right to exist and start fighting to win. Psychopaths surround Israel and inspire an 8th century "civilization." Resentment, duplicity, and murder define Moslems. When handed democracy, these “innocent” civilians vote for terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. They even enslave and murder their own mothers, wives, daughters and sisters in the name of “honor.”

Instead of worrying about enraging them, we need to destroy their means and their will to fight. Because this civilization produces nothing, they would pose no threat to the world if we didn’t pay them hundreds of billions of dollars for the oil we discovered and taught them to refine and distribute. So let’s take their oil and use some of the profits to introduce profound Judeo-Christian and Western ideals like compassion and kindness for others, self-reliance, personal integrity, and individual freedom for everyone.



how close is the Israel-US comparison?
The US never really had the chance to question its own territory acquisition. The natives weren't capable of fighting us off (or waging decades of terrorism), and so the guys in Washington could only shrug and pass the Homestead Act.

The comments below are very interesting. A lot can happen in 2000 years!

Magic Formula for Israel?
MarshMirch's comments are an interesting take on the topic of the current events.

Should we be talking about Israel’s right to exist? Or should we be discussing whether or not Israel can exist?

I don't know a single Jewish American friend of mine who wants to raise their kids in or allow their kids to move to Israel.

I must admit that I too worry that Israel lacks the staying power based on the following:
-- the extreme hostility and fanaticism in the Arab world
-- the low birthrates among Israelis
-- the ridiculously tiny piece of real estate Israel occupies (so tiny that even Israeli military strategists say it is practically indefensible)
-- the fact that life memories of the Holocaust and the inspiring Zionist homeland movements of the last 150 years are fading, particularly among younger Jews (these fused together the global identity and drive to found the Israel of today)
-- the fact that the Jewish people can live a safer, fuller life in countries like the US or the UK.

If newer generations of Jewish Americans or Jewish Europeans decide that they don’t want to move to Israel, the migrations (the lifeblood of the Jewish state) of these groups into Israel could slow to a trickle.

Worse, there might come a time in the next twenty years when the Israelis themselves realize what the Christian crusaders (religious fanatics to rival the current batch of Islamists) realized back in the Middle Ages: it doesn’t matter how much fervor, wealth or military power you have behind you.

If there are 3 million of you and tens of millions of them, sooner or later – and at tremendous personal cost to you and your friends and family - you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that it might be time to move to Scottdale, Arizona.




Sending me back to Europe?

I enjoyed your argument that Israel has a greater right to exist than America. If Mexican immigrants crossed the border and started blowing themselves up in video arcades, I might consider returning to the countries from which my family came.

But while I might think my heritage gives me the right to occupy the finest real estate in London, Stockholm and Dubrovnik, the locals – despite my heritage – would think I was totally insane. They would see me showing up heavily armed to occupy my new home(s) and be outraged. My family has been in the US for 100 to 250 years… The majority of the population of Israel consists of Europeans of Jewish decent and the majority of them have been gone for periods of up to 2,000 years!

Comparing the “rights” of Israel, America or me moving into Buckingham Palace seems to miss a greater and scarier reality, Michael. I’m worried that it won’t matter what we, the Israelis and the Brits think about Israel’s right to exist.

Does Israel really have the staying power in that part of the world? Have they figured something out some magic formula for survival that escaped the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans and British? I'm interested in your responses.

Israel Right to Exist
It has the very rights that America has. It is a free democratic country with a governing body in place. It has the right to protect itself when it is being blantly attacked by Hezbolla.

I for one believe that America should stand beside Israel in all things for we also had to fight for our freedoms. We have endured many wars they have endured more then we.

Israel I believe is in a Holy War as are we in Iraq. No one can tell me that we are not. Hezbolla wants Israel and America to cease existence and if we do not stick together we may just become that very thing. Non existant.

I think that the Media is doing an injustice to America by siding with the so called underdog they are taking sides. And it demeans America by the way that they are doing it.

Maybe Soros is accomplishing what he and many others have set out to do and that is to bring America to her knees. Liberals need to be the ones that are non-existant. If we didn't have them in our midst I believe our world would be a much better place.
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